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該造價高的預算就偏比較多啦那另外就是在執行中如果有碰到這個廠商跟機關之間因為物價的問題需要調整或需要執行的那工程會呢都會\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 493.078, \"end\": 493.238, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 493.238, \"end\": 493.398, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"盡\"}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 493.398, \"end\": 493.759, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 493.759, \"end\": 493.899, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"且\", \"start\": 493.899, \"end\": 493.999, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 493.999, \"end\": 494.099, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 494.099, \"end\": 494.279, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 494.279, \"end\": 494.479, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 494.479, \"end\": 494.679, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"宜\", \"start\": 494.679, \"end\": 494.78, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"甚\", \"start\": 494.78, \"end\": 494.96, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 494.96, \"end\": 495.06, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": 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\"都\", \"start\": 510.753, \"end\": 510.773, \"score\": 0.566}, {\"word\": \"會\"}]}, {\"start\": 512.214, \"end\": 535.629, \"text\": \"站在比較協助解決的方向來加以諮詢或協調那另外就是說整個預算裡面機關有時候他也會準備物條的費用會編在裡面因為我們擔心說當然在編預算的確都有物條費的問題就是說現在是基本上每過五年每過十年又有一項這種大型工程當然第一個我們希望說\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"站\", \"start\": 512.214, \"end\": 512.434, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 512.434, \"end\": 512.654, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 512.654, \"end\": 513.895, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"協\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 513.895, \"end\": 514.175, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 514.175, \"end\": 514.556, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 514.556, \"end\": 514.716, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 514.716, \"end\": 514.936, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 514.936, \"end\": 515.416, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 515.416, \"end\": 515.696, 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\"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 616.864, \"end\": 616.964, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 616.964, \"end\": 617.084, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 617.084, \"end\": 617.284, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 617.284, \"end\": 617.464, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 617.464, \"end\": 617.705, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 617.705, \"end\": 618.405, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 618.405, \"end\": 618.726, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 618.726, \"end\": 618.846, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 618.846, \"end\": 618.866, \"score\": 0.007}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,424 --> 00:00:06,017\n好主席好主席我們請工程會陳主委好請陳主委\n\n2\n00:00:13,581 --> 00:00:35,400\n委員早主委早主委我想今天我是這個委員會質詢第七位那前面六位每一位都很關切我們這個預算的問題本席當然也要關切一下這個說我想主委對於預算的這個狀況我想掌握得非常清楚我剛剛六位的詢問本席在下面聽了很多個我想主委對這事情非常清楚但是我們要提的重點就是當然業務費兩億多左右被凍結了50%\n\n3\n00:00:36,741 --> 00:00:45,557\n那現在我們期待說工程會要提解凍嘛那我想很多委員都詢問說這個到底解凍案什麼時候能夠進行我想主委可不可以把我們程序稍微說一下\n\n4\n00:00:46,161 --> 00:01:09,990\n我們大院的要求是執行百分之三十以後就可以提嘛那我們就遵循大院的這個主決議執行百分之三十以後會提但是呢到底怎麼提現在我們還不太清楚是直接向大院提呢還是說由行政院整個所有部會中央政府整合預算向大院來提因為只有\n\n5\n00:01:11,511 --> 00:01:38,371\n就是院會只有審理行政院的案而已行政院的院會他很難說叫我們部會首長去那邊說明這個預算怎麼執行所以這個是立法院我印象所及從來沒發生過被要求在院會同意時的動之這件事情所以我想說是不是請大院先將這個解凍程序能夠對讓我們知道到底是程序是怎麼解凍的\n\n6\n00:01:39,372 --> 00:02:05,107\n那怎麼沒有違反那個組決議那否則的話坦白講啦如果說用復議來協商來解決這個問題是最好的方式可惜復議這條路已經沒有了這條路已經結束了啦主委到底是要由工程會來提解動案還是由行政院來提解但我想這是行政部門的問題啦這是你們內部可能行政院自己各部會之間要怎麼協調我想這是行政院端的問題那我想對立法院來講\n\n7\n00:02:06,507 --> 00:02:31,704\n前面當然刪除預算凍結預算行政立法院具有主動權但現在我想最大問題是提解凍案的主動權應該在貴院就是行政院的各行政部門提解凍案你要先進來我們才能夠去討論說怎麼樣進行後續程序要先經過委員會再送到院會還是你們可以直接提報告案到院會裡面去解凍這當然是後續的討論但現在最大問題什麼我要跟這個\n\n8\n00:02:32,825 --> 00:02:53,518\n我主委也提醒一下如果你們去開行政院會的時候也要跟你們院長提醒一下現在問題是因為這個所謂的一四年的總預算到目前為止還沒有公告啦啊你沒有公告你當然沒有辦法去進行後面的這個流程嘛所以我們今天期待說今天提出來大家都針對數字針對程序來討論那本席在這邊要提的一個建議是說如果\n\n9\n00:02:54,218 --> 00:03:05,263\n要快的話其實應該是你們要先公告公告完我們才能去針對這個案子還有後面的不管是提解東岸也還提什麼樣東西因為現在這個東西現在未定嘛\n\n10\n00:03:07,659 --> 00:03:25,580\n前面要提復議所以到了上週才復議才結束復議才結束那現在還沒有公告我公告後你們才有所謂的主動權就行政單位才有主動權提出來我們在解凍預算這三個我想立法院相對來講是被動的啦\n\n11\n00:03:26,781 --> 00:03:40,434\n那我也相信這個主委我想你做事情也非常的明快也非常的這個直接啦我想也不用對自己這麼沒信心像提到說比如說這個金質獎也好或是像各項的業務也好大家就為什麼要取其凍結案不是刪除凍結最\n\n12\n00:03:42,176 --> 00:04:03,664\n最務實的做法大家都很清楚當委員都很清楚知道說凍結案是希望說好好的報告好好的說明說我這筆錢要做什麼比如說您現在講說這個金質獎因為凍結案我接下來共產會今年要做金質獎的預算所以我需要這些錢然後我想基於零基預算精神立法院聽了委員們都覺得沒問題當然就會給你們通過\n\n13\n00:04:05,845 --> 00:04:20,860\n主委應該不用這麼沒有自信說他錢不知道在哪裡我想你只要好好的解釋好好的說明這個凍結他既然是凍結而已他不是刪除就表示說大家只是對業務內容不熟悉不了解希望有報告然後就好處理了嘛主委怎麼看\n\n14\n00:04:21,991 --> 00:04:44,905\n報告委員關鍵就是說還要同意後市的動之同意不同意並不知道那這一部分如果如果是在委會處理因為既兩院互相制衡互相尊重那過去都行李如宜在委員會要刪要動都可以因為這次在院會比較特別所以讓我們想起說那立法院\n\n15\n00:04:46,178 --> 00:05:09,167\n去凍結行政院的預算而不是刪減這件事情到底有沒有違法之餘因為如果說我們這個預算是凍結比方這個預算防疫預算如果發生了疫情武漢肺炎COVID-19疫情發生了使得凍結那這是合法的如果說你要我同意要立法院同意你才能用那這是行政權\n\n16\n00:05:10,601 --> 00:05:35,247\n所以這部分是有疑慮的啦如果我們看過一些見解是有疑慮的主要是那個程序要請大院能夠明示到底我們要怎麼向院內來尋求解凍也許我們國會聯絡的人也會跟大院的議事組來講程序的部分當然要講這是兩院之間這個兩院院長也好或是各單位也好去協調啦那我們現在講的說是被動跟主動求院如果你們今天\n\n17\n00:05:36,547 --> 00:05:57,464\n遲遲的沒有公告沒有提解凍案進來那我想不管是委員會也好院會也好我沒辦法處理啊今天就算就像今天這樣子今天已經3月10幾號了嘛那如果今天如果照正常程序如果一切都按照正常程序不管預算的審查怎麼樣或是後面有沒有提付議案我想按照往例假設今天\n\n18\n00:05:58,885 --> 00:06:22,352\n這個整個立法院行政院的按照正常程序來講可能現在也執行30%就差不多要啟動相關程序了啦好所以我們期待還是要期待說這個主委要把這意見帶回去啦說你們在行政端這邊主要是說你們如果沒有提那立法院也沒辦法被動的處理我想要把這個事情把它來講清楚了好不好還有兩分鐘來我們針對一下內容這個我想這個\n\n19\n00:06:26,314 --> 00:06:41,146\n要提到工程會的部分就是針對這幾年很多營建通膨物價上漲的部分我們看到說包含基隆捷運還有高雄的捷運從過去這些年它的經費都漲非常非常多那麼像過去的這幾年營造工程物價指數也是連年上漲從105年的\n\n20\n00:06:43,228 --> 00:07:08,044\n最低82.15%到去年達到111.4%是歷史新高我們要問的是說對於這樣子的物價指數達到歷史新高對於我們想很多公共工程的影響性非常非常大可能流標也好或者是進度拖延也好不知道工程會對這樣的狀況有沒有具體掌握到那要怎麼樣解救我想很多地方建設陸陸續續在開展尤其是台中我想今年\n\n21\n00:07:08,624 --> 00:07:31,576\n大家都知道台中今天藍線要即將要動工要開始動那長達時期的工企會不會到最後又一天發生我們已經看到這麼多案子這麼多這個捷運工程都流標或者是在延後很多次那台中我想我們對於藍線台中非常期待這個造價上千億的工程會不會到最後一千億變兩千億那後面怎麼處理等等的我想工程會對這問題有沒有掌握到要怎麼解決\n\n22\n00:07:33,298 --> 00:07:55,536\n因為台中南線大概我記得經費大概900多億這個中央政府的部分900多億那因為我們預算編列或規劃的階段在預算框的時候是舊的當年的指標等到這些基本設計已經審核定了細部設計也設計了施工完工那已經後面的事了\n\n23\n00:07:55,836 --> 00:08:12,377\n所以顯然是這個之前的這個指標也許會受通膨相關的影響那這一部分我們工程會也會希望各機關在辦理公共工程的時候他的預算要編列的時候要注意到這樣的情形\n\n24\n00:08:13,078 --> 00:08:30,773\n所以盡量而且要因地制宜甚至有的比較偏鄉造價比較高的該造價高的預算就偏比較多啦那另外就是在執行中如果有碰到這個廠商跟機關之間因為物價的問題需要調整或需要執行的那工程會呢都會\n\n25\n00:08:32,214 --> 00:08:55,629\n站在比較協助解決的方向來加以諮詢或協調那另外就是說整個預算裡面機關有時候他也會準備物條的費用會編在裡面因為我們擔心說當然在編預算的確都有物條費的問題就是說現在是基本上每過五年每過十年又有一項這種大型工程當然第一個我們希望說\n\n26\n00:08:57,250 --> 00:09:22,800\n大的問題是說我們大的工程能不能加速進行還不要拖五年十年但物價都不一樣了那另外一個回到工程面回到這個政府的對於這些工程進度的掌管的問題來講的話這個工程會在審相關案件的時候是不是應該直接把物價可能調漲的這個問題放進去審核的報告裡面讓他們知道說未來幾年不管是你們因為我想工程會可能掌握的\n\n27\n00:09:23,981 --> 00:09:31,717\n資源或技術比地方政府或地方發包的或比地方工程的廠商來得多嗎你們比較知道說可能現行的物價值說未來\n\n28\n00:09:32,987 --> 00:09:54,706\n會上漲多少的比例可能要先放進去而不是說我今年按現在的物價編完了比如說現在台東捷運你中央出900多億地方也才會出1000左右2000總共2000億左右的捷運纜線會不會明年就超過這金額所以我就多編的部分是不是能夠讓工程會有一個方案能夠讓地方政府能比較放心的去做這個事情\n\n29\n00:09:54,926 --> 00:10:18,866\n好謝謝委員因為台中的藍線捷運因為之前有修正過如果在執行中有發現這個問題那主辦機關是台中市政府他可以再提修正再提修正經過行政院來審議如果覺得預算要調整的時候就會再核定這個修正計畫那因為還沒有完工所以沒有里約爭議的問題所以當中台中市政府可以提修正好主委謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3424\t6017\t好主席好主席我們請工程會陳主委好請陳主委\n13581\t35400\t委員早主委早主委我想今天我是這個委員會質詢第七位那前面六位每一位都很關切我們這個預算的問題本席當然也要關切一下這個說我想主委對於預算的這個狀況我想掌握得非常清楚我剛剛六位的詢問本席在下面聽了很多個我想主委對這事情非常清楚但是我們要提的重點就是當然業務費兩億多左右被凍結了50%\n36741\t45557\t那現在我們期待說工程會要提解凍嘛那我想很多委員都詢問說這個到底解凍案什麼時候能夠進行我想主委可不可以把我們程序稍微說一下\n46161\t69990\t我們大院的要求是執行百分之三十以後就可以提嘛那我們就遵循大院的這個主決議執行百分之三十以後會提但是呢到底怎麼提現在我們還不太清楚是直接向大院提呢還是說由行政院整個所有部會中央政府整合預算向大院來提因為只有\n71511\t98371\t就是院會只有審理行政院的案而已行政院的院會他很難說叫我們部會首長去那邊說明這個預算怎麼執行所以這個是立法院我印象所及從來沒發生過被要求在院會同意時的動之這件事情所以我想說是不是請大院先將這個解凍程序能夠對讓我們知道到底是程序是怎麼解凍的\n99372\t125107\t那怎麼沒有違反那個組決議那否則的話坦白講啦如果說用復議來協商來解決這個問題是最好的方式可惜復議這條路已經沒有了這條路已經結束了啦 主委到底是要由工程會來提解動案還是由行政院來提解但我想這是行政部門的問題啦這是你們內部可能行政院自己各部會之間要怎麼協調我想這是行政院端的問題那我想對立法院來講\n126507\t151704\t前面當然刪除預算凍結預算行政立法院具有主動權但現在我想最大問題是提解凍案的主動權應該在貴院就是行政院的各行政部門提解凍案你要先進來我們才能夠去討論說怎麼樣進行後續程序要先經過委員會再送到院會還是你們可以直接提報告案到院會裡面去解凍這當然是後續的討論但現在最大問題什麼我要跟這個\n152825\t173518\t我主委也提醒一下如果你們去開行政院會的時候也要跟你們院長提醒一下現在問題是因為這個所謂的一四年的總預算到目前為止還沒有公告啦啊你沒有公告你當然沒有辦法去進行後面的這個流程嘛所以我們今天期待說今天提出來大家都針對數字針對程序來討論那本席在這邊要提的一個建議是說如果\n174218\t185263\t要快的話其實應該是你們要先公告公告完我們才能去針對這個案子還有後面的不管是提解東岸也還提什麼樣東西因為現在這個東西現在未定嘛\n187659\t205580\t前面要提復議所以到了上週才復議才結束復議才結束那現在還沒有公告我公告後你們才有所謂的主動權就行政單位才有主動權提出來我們在解凍預算這三個我想立法院相對來講是被動的啦\n206781\t220434\t那我也相信這個主委我想你做事情也非常的明快也非常的這個直接啦我想也不用對自己這麼沒信心像提到說比如說這個金質獎也好或是像各項的業務也好大家就為什麼要取其凍結案不是刪除凍結最\n222176\t243664\t最務實的做法 大家都很清楚 當委員都很清楚知道說 凍結案是希望說好好的報告 好好的說明說我這筆錢要做什麼 比如說您現在講說這個金質獎 因為凍結案 我接下來共產會今年要做金質獎的預算所以我需要這些錢 然後我想基於零基預算精神立法院聽了 委員們都覺得沒問題 當然就會給你們通過\n245845\t260860\t主委應該不用這麼沒有自信說他錢不知道在哪裡我想你只要好好的解釋好好的說明這個凍結他既然是凍結而已他不是刪除就表示說大家只是對業務內容不熟悉不了解希望有報告然後就好處理了嘛主委怎麼看\n261991\t284905\t報告委員關鍵就是說還要同意後市的動之同意不同意並不知道那這一部分如果如果是在委會處理因為既兩院互相制衡互相尊重那過去都行李如宜在委員會要刪要動都可以因為這次在院會比較特別所以讓我們想起說那立法院\n286178\t309167\t去凍結行政院的預算而不是刪減這件事情到底有沒有違法之餘因為如果說我們這個預算是凍結比方這個預算防疫預算如果發生了疫情武漢肺炎COVID-19疫情發生了使得凍結那這是合法的如果說你要我同意要立法院同意你才能用那這是行政權\n310601\t335247\t所以這部分是有疑慮的啦如果我們看過一些見解是有疑慮的主要是那個程序要請大院能夠明示到底我們要怎麼向院內來尋求解凍也許我們國會聯絡的人也會跟大院的議事組來講程序的部分當然要講這是兩院之間這個兩院院長也好或是各單位也好去協調啦那我們現在講的說是被動跟主動求院如果你們今天\n336547\t357464\t遲遲的沒有公告 沒有提解凍案進來那我想不管是委員會也好 院會也好 我沒辦法處理啊今天就算 就像今天這樣子今天已經3月10幾號了嘛 那如果今天如果照正常程序 如果一切都按照正常程序不管預算的審查怎麼樣 或是後面有沒有提付議案我想按照往例 假設今天\n358885\t382352\t這個整個立法院行政院的按照正常程序來講可能現在也執行30%就差不多要啟動相關程序了啦好所以我們期待還是要期待說這個主委要把這意見帶回去啦說你們在行政端這邊主要是說你們如果沒有提那立法院也沒辦法被動的處理我想要把這個事情把它來講清楚了好不好還有兩分鐘來我們針對一下內容這個我想這個\n386314\t401146\t要提到工程會的部分就是針對這幾年很多營建通膨物價上漲的部分我們看到說包含基隆捷運還有高雄的捷運從過去這些年它的經費都漲非常非常多那麼像過去的這幾年營造工程物價指數也是連年上漲從105年的\n403228\t428044\t最低82.15%到去年達到111.4%是歷史新高我們要問的是說對於這樣子的物價指數達到歷史新高對於我們想很多公共工程的影響性非常非常大可能流標也好或者是進度拖延也好不知道工程會對這樣的狀況有沒有具體掌握到那要怎麼樣解救我想很多地方建設陸陸續續在開展尤其是台中我想今年\n428624\t451576\t大家都知道台中今天藍線要即將要動工要開始動那長達時期的工企會不會到最後又一天發生我們已經看到這麼多案子這麼多這個捷運工程都流標或者是在延後很多次那台中我想我們對於藍線台中非常期待這個造價上千億的工程會不會到最後一千億變兩千億那後面怎麼處理等等的我想工程會對這問題有沒有掌握到要怎麼解決\n453298\t475536\t因為台中南線大概我記得經費大概900多億這個中央政府的部分900多億那因為我們預算編列或規劃的階段在預算框的時候是舊的當年的指標等到這些基本設計已經審核定了細部設計也設計了施工完工那已經後面的事了\n475836\t492377\t所以顯然是這個之前的這個指標也許會受通膨相關的影響那這一部分我們工程會也會希望各機關在辦理公共工程的時候他的預算要編列的時候要注意到這樣的情形\n493078\t510773\t所以盡量而且要因地制宜甚至有的比較偏鄉造價比較高的 該造價高的預算就偏比較多啦那另外就是在執行中如果有碰到這個廠商跟機關之間因為物價的問題需要調整或需要執行的那工程會呢都會\n512214\t535629\t站在比較協助解決的方向來加以諮詢或協調那另外就是說整個預算裡面機關有時候他也會準備物條的費用會編在裡面因為我們擔心說當然在編預算的確都有物條費的問題就是說現在是基本上每過五年每過十年又有一項這種大型工程當然第一個我們希望說\n537250\t562800\t大的問題是說我們大的工程能不能加速進行還不要拖五年十年但物價都不一樣了那另外一個回到工程面回到這個政府的對於這些工程進度的掌管的問題來講的話這個工程會在審相關案件的時候是不是應該直接把物價可能調漲的這個問題放進去審核的報告裡面讓他們知道說未來幾年不管是你們因為我想工程會可能掌握的\n563981\t571717\t資源或技術比地方政府或地方發包的或比地方工程的廠商來得多嗎你們比較知道說可能現行的物價值說未來\n572987\t594706\t會上漲多少的比例可能要先放進去而不是說我今年按現在的物價編完了比如說現在台東捷運你中央出900多億地方也才會出1000左右2000總共2000億左右的捷運纜線會不會明年就超過這金額所以我就多編的部分是不是能夠讓工程會有一個方案能夠讓地方政府能比較放心的去做這個事情\n594926\t618866\t好 謝謝委員因為台中的藍線捷運因為之前有修正過如果在執行中有發現這個問題那主辦機關是台中市政府他可以再提修正再提修正經過行政院來審議如果覺得預算要調整的時候就會再核定這個修正計畫那因為還沒有完工所以沒有里約爭議的問題所以當中台中市政府可以提修正好 主委謝謝\n","txt":"好主席好主席我們請工程會陳主委好請陳主委\n委員早主委早主委我想今天我是這個委員會質詢第七位那前面六位每一位都很關切我們這個預算的問題本席當然也要關切一下這個說我想主委對於預算的這個狀況我想掌握得非常清楚我剛剛六位的詢問本席在下面聽了很多個我想主委對這事情非常清楚但是我們要提的重點就是當然業務費兩億多左右被凍結了50%\n那現在我們期待說工程會要提解凍嘛那我想很多委員都詢問說這個到底解凍案什麼時候能夠進行我想主委可不可以把我們程序稍微說一下\n我們大院的要求是執行百分之三十以後就可以提嘛那我們就遵循大院的這個主決議執行百分之三十以後會提但是呢到底怎麼提現在我們還不太清楚是直接向大院提呢還是說由行政院整個所有部會中央政府整合預算向大院來提因為只有\n就是院會只有審理行政院的案而已行政院的院會他很難說叫我們部會首長去那邊說明這個預算怎麼執行所以這個是立法院我印象所及從來沒發生過被要求在院會同意時的動之這件事情所以我想說是不是請大院先將這個解凍程序能夠對讓我們知道到底是程序是怎麼解凍的\n那怎麼沒有違反那個組決議那否則的話坦白講啦如果說用復議來協商來解決這個問題是最好的方式可惜復議這條路已經沒有了這條路已經結束了啦 主委到底是要由工程會來提解動案還是由行政院來提解但我想這是行政部門的問題啦這是你們內部可能行政院自己各部會之間要怎麼協調我想這是行政院端的問題那我想對立法院來講\n前面當然刪除預算凍結預算行政立法院具有主動權但現在我想最大問題是提解凍案的主動權應該在貴院就是行政院的各行政部門提解凍案你要先進來我們才能夠去討論說怎麼樣進行後續程序要先經過委員會再送到院會還是你們可以直接提報告案到院會裡面去解凍這當然是後續的討論但現在最大問題什麼我要跟這個\n我主委也提醒一下如果你們去開行政院會的時候也要跟你們院長提醒一下現在問題是因為這個所謂的一四年的總預算到目前為止還沒有公告啦啊你沒有公告你當然沒有辦法去進行後面的這個流程嘛所以我們今天期待說今天提出來大家都針對數字針對程序來討論那本席在這邊要提的一個建議是說如果\n要快的話其實應該是你們要先公告公告完我們才能去針對這個案子還有後面的不管是提解東岸也還提什麼樣東西因為現在這個東西現在未定嘛\n前面要提復議所以到了上週才復議才結束復議才結束那現在還沒有公告我公告後你們才有所謂的主動權就行政單位才有主動權提出來我們在解凍預算這三個我想立法院相對來講是被動的啦\n那我也相信這個主委我想你做事情也非常的明快也非常的這個直接啦我想也不用對自己這麼沒信心像提到說比如說這個金質獎也好或是像各項的業務也好大家就為什麼要取其凍結案不是刪除凍結最\n最務實的做法 大家都很清楚 當委員都很清楚知道說 凍結案是希望說好好的報告 好好的說明說我這筆錢要做什麼 比如說您現在講說這個金質獎 因為凍結案 我接下來共產會今年要做金質獎的預算所以我需要這些錢 然後我想基於零基預算精神立法院聽了 委員們都覺得沒問題 當然就會給你們通過\n主委應該不用這麼沒有自信說他錢不知道在哪裡我想你只要好好的解釋好好的說明這個凍結他既然是凍結而已他不是刪除就表示說大家只是對業務內容不熟悉不了解希望有報告然後就好處理了嘛主委怎麼看\n報告委員關鍵就是說還要同意後市的動之同意不同意並不知道那這一部分如果如果是在委會處理因為既兩院互相制衡互相尊重那過去都行李如宜在委員會要刪要動都可以因為這次在院會比較特別所以讓我們想起說那立法院\n去凍結行政院的預算而不是刪減這件事情到底有沒有違法之餘因為如果說我們這個預算是凍結比方這個預算防疫預算如果發生了疫情武漢肺炎COVID-19疫情發生了使得凍結那這是合法的如果說你要我同意要立法院同意你才能用那這是行政權\n所以這部分是有疑慮的啦如果我們看過一些見解是有疑慮的主要是那個程序要請大院能夠明示到底我們要怎麼向院內來尋求解凍也許我們國會聯絡的人也會跟大院的議事組來講程序的部分當然要講這是兩院之間這個兩院院長也好或是各單位也好去協調啦那我們現在講的說是被動跟主動求院如果你們今天\n遲遲的沒有公告 沒有提解凍案進來那我想不管是委員會也好 院會也好 我沒辦法處理啊今天就算 就像今天這樣子今天已經3月10幾號了嘛 那如果今天如果照正常程序 如果一切都按照正常程序不管預算的審查怎麼樣 或是後面有沒有提付議案我想按照往例 假設今天\n這個整個立法院行政院的按照正常程序來講可能現在也執行30%就差不多要啟動相關程序了啦好所以我們期待還是要期待說這個主委要把這意見帶回去啦說你們在行政端這邊主要是說你們如果沒有提那立法院也沒辦法被動的處理我想要把這個事情把它來講清楚了好不好還有兩分鐘來我們針對一下內容這個我想這個\n要提到工程會的部分就是針對這幾年很多營建通膨物價上漲的部分我們看到說包含基隆捷運還有高雄的捷運從過去這些年它的經費都漲非常非常多那麼像過去的這幾年營造工程物價指數也是連年上漲從105年的\n最低82.15%到去年達到111.4%是歷史新高我們要問的是說對於這樣子的物價指數達到歷史新高對於我們想很多公共工程的影響性非常非常大可能流標也好或者是進度拖延也好不知道工程會對這樣的狀況有沒有具體掌握到那要怎麼樣解救我想很多地方建設陸陸續續在開展尤其是台中我想今年\n大家都知道台中今天藍線要即將要動工要開始動那長達時期的工企會不會到最後又一天發生我們已經看到這麼多案子這麼多這個捷運工程都流標或者是在延後很多次那台中我想我們對於藍線台中非常期待這個造價上千億的工程會不會到最後一千億變兩千億那後面怎麼處理等等的我想工程會對這問題有沒有掌握到要怎麼解決\n因為台中南線大概我記得經費大概900多億這個中央政府的部分900多億那因為我們預算編列或規劃的階段在預算框的時候是舊的當年的指標等到這些基本設計已經審核定了細部設計也設計了施工完工那已經後面的事了\n所以顯然是這個之前的這個指標也許會受通膨相關的影響那這一部分我們工程會也會希望各機關在辦理公共工程的時候他的預算要編列的時候要注意到這樣的情形\n所以盡量而且要因地制宜甚至有的比較偏鄉造價比較高的 該造價高的預算就偏比較多啦那另外就是在執行中如果有碰到這個廠商跟機關之間因為物價的問題需要調整或需要執行的那工程會呢都會\n站在比較協助解決的方向來加以諮詢或協調那另外就是說整個預算裡面機關有時候他也會準備物條的費用會編在裡面因為我們擔心說當然在編預算的確都有物條費的問題就是說現在是基本上每過五年每過十年又有一項這種大型工程當然第一個我們希望說\n大的問題是說我們大的工程能不能加速進行還不要拖五年十年但物價都不一樣了那另外一個回到工程面回到這個政府的對於這些工程進度的掌管的問題來講的話這個工程會在審相關案件的時候是不是應該直接把物價可能調漲的這個問題放進去審核的報告裡面讓他們知道說未來幾年不管是你們因為我想工程會可能掌握的\n資源或技術比地方政府或地方發包的或比地方工程的廠商來得多嗎你們比較知道說可能現行的物價值說未來\n會上漲多少的比例可能要先放進去而不是說我今年按現在的物價編完了比如說現在台東捷運你中央出900多億地方也才會出1000左右2000總共2000億左右的捷運纜線會不會明年就超過這金額所以我就多編的部分是不是能夠讓工程會有一個方案能夠讓地方政府能比較放心的去做這個事情\n好 謝謝委員因為台中的藍線捷運因為之前有修正過如果在執行中有發現這個問題那主辦機關是台中市政府他可以再提修正再提修正經過行政院來審議如果覺得預算要調整的時候就會再核定這個修正計畫那因為還沒有完工所以沒有里約爭議的問題所以當中台中市政府可以提修正好 主委謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.424 --> 00:06.017\n好主席好主席我們請工程會陳主委好請陳主委\n\n00:13.581 --> 00:35.400\n委員早主委早主委我想今天我是這個委員會質詢第七位那前面六位每一位都很關切我們這個預算的問題本席當然也要關切一下這個說我想主委對於預算的這個狀況我想掌握得非常清楚我剛剛六位的詢問本席在下面聽了很多個我想主委對這事情非常清楚但是我們要提的重點就是當然業務費兩億多左右被凍結了50%\n\n00:36.741 --> 00:45.557\n那現在我們期待說工程會要提解凍嘛那我想很多委員都詢問說這個到底解凍案什麼時候能夠進行我想主委可不可以把我們程序稍微說一下\n\n00:46.161 --> 01:09.990\n我們大院的要求是執行百分之三十以後就可以提嘛那我們就遵循大院的這個主決議執行百分之三十以後會提但是呢到底怎麼提現在我們還不太清楚是直接向大院提呢還是說由行政院整個所有部會中央政府整合預算向大院來提因為只有\n\n01:11.511 --> 01:38.371\n就是院會只有審理行政院的案而已行政院的院會他很難說叫我們部會首長去那邊說明這個預算怎麼執行所以這個是立法院我印象所及從來沒發生過被要求在院會同意時的動之這件事情所以我想說是不是請大院先將這個解凍程序能夠對讓我們知道到底是程序是怎麼解凍的\n\n01:39.372 --> 02:05.107\n那怎麼沒有違反那個組決議那否則的話坦白講啦如果說用復議來協商來解決這個問題是最好的方式可惜復議這條路已經沒有了這條路已經結束了啦主委到底是要由工程會來提解動案還是由行政院來提解但我想這是行政部門的問題啦這是你們內部可能行政院自己各部會之間要怎麼協調我想這是行政院端的問題那我想對立法院來講\n\n02:06.507 --> 02:31.704\n前面當然刪除預算凍結預算行政立法院具有主動權但現在我想最大問題是提解凍案的主動權應該在貴院就是行政院的各行政部門提解凍案你要先進來我們才能夠去討論說怎麼樣進行後續程序要先經過委員會再送到院會還是你們可以直接提報告案到院會裡面去解凍這當然是後續的討論但現在最大問題什麼我要跟這個\n\n02:32.825 --> 02:53.518\n我主委也提醒一下如果你們去開行政院會的時候也要跟你們院長提醒一下現在問題是因為這個所謂的一四年的總預算到目前為止還沒有公告啦啊你沒有公告你當然沒有辦法去進行後面的這個流程嘛所以我們今天期待說今天提出來大家都針對數字針對程序來討論那本席在這邊要提的一個建議是說如果\n\n02:54.218 --> 03:05.263\n要快的話其實應該是你們要先公告公告完我們才能去針對這個案子還有後面的不管是提解東岸也還提什麼樣東西因為現在這個東西現在未定嘛\n\n03:07.659 --> 03:25.580\n前面要提復議所以到了上週才復議才結束復議才結束那現在還沒有公告我公告後你們才有所謂的主動權就行政單位才有主動權提出來我們在解凍預算這三個我想立法院相對來講是被動的啦\n\n03:26.781 --> 03:40.434\n那我也相信這個主委我想你做事情也非常的明快也非常的這個直接啦我想也不用對自己這麼沒信心像提到說比如說這個金質獎也好或是像各項的業務也好大家就為什麼要取其凍結案不是刪除凍結最\n\n03:42.176 --> 04:03.664\n最務實的做法大家都很清楚當委員都很清楚知道說凍結案是希望說好好的報告好好的說明說我這筆錢要做什麼比如說您現在講說這個金質獎因為凍結案我接下來共產會今年要做金質獎的預算所以我需要這些錢然後我想基於零基預算精神立法院聽了委員們都覺得沒問題當然就會給你們通過\n\n04:05.845 --> 04:20.860\n主委應該不用這麼沒有自信說他錢不知道在哪裡我想你只要好好的解釋好好的說明這個凍結他既然是凍結而已他不是刪除就表示說大家只是對業務內容不熟悉不了解希望有報告然後就好處理了嘛主委怎麼看\n\n04:21.991 --> 04:44.905\n報告委員關鍵就是說還要同意後市的動之同意不同意並不知道那這一部分如果如果是在委會處理因為既兩院互相制衡互相尊重那過去都行李如宜在委員會要刪要動都可以因為這次在院會比較特別所以讓我們想起說那立法院\n\n04:46.178 --> 05:09.167\n去凍結行政院的預算而不是刪減這件事情到底有沒有違法之餘因為如果說我們這個預算是凍結比方這個預算防疫預算如果發生了疫情武漢肺炎COVID-19疫情發生了使得凍結那這是合法的如果說你要我同意要立法院同意你才能用那這是行政權\n\n05:10.601 --> 05:35.247\n所以這部分是有疑慮的啦如果我們看過一些見解是有疑慮的主要是那個程序要請大院能夠明示到底我們要怎麼向院內來尋求解凍也許我們國會聯絡的人也會跟大院的議事組來講程序的部分當然要講這是兩院之間這個兩院院長也好或是各單位也好去協調啦那我們現在講的說是被動跟主動求院如果你們今天\n\n05:36.547 --> 05:57.464\n遲遲的沒有公告沒有提解凍案進來那我想不管是委員會也好院會也好我沒辦法處理啊今天就算就像今天這樣子今天已經3月10幾號了嘛那如果今天如果照正常程序如果一切都按照正常程序不管預算的審查怎麼樣或是後面有沒有提付議案我想按照往例假設今天\n\n05:58.885 --> 06:22.352\n這個整個立法院行政院的按照正常程序來講可能現在也執行30%就差不多要啟動相關程序了啦好所以我們期待還是要期待說這個主委要把這意見帶回去啦說你們在行政端這邊主要是說你們如果沒有提那立法院也沒辦法被動的處理我想要把這個事情把它來講清楚了好不好還有兩分鐘來我們針對一下內容這個我想這個\n\n06:26.314 --> 06:41.146\n要提到工程會的部分就是針對這幾年很多營建通膨物價上漲的部分我們看到說包含基隆捷運還有高雄的捷運從過去這些年它的經費都漲非常非常多那麼像過去的這幾年營造工程物價指數也是連年上漲從105年的\n\n06:43.228 --> 07:08.044\n最低82.15%到去年達到111.4%是歷史新高我們要問的是說對於這樣子的物價指數達到歷史新高對於我們想很多公共工程的影響性非常非常大可能流標也好或者是進度拖延也好不知道工程會對這樣的狀況有沒有具體掌握到那要怎麼樣解救我想很多地方建設陸陸續續在開展尤其是台中我想今年\n\n07:08.624 --> 07:31.576\n大家都知道台中今天藍線要即將要動工要開始動那長達時期的工企會不會到最後又一天發生我們已經看到這麼多案子這麼多這個捷運工程都流標或者是在延後很多次那台中我想我們對於藍線台中非常期待這個造價上千億的工程會不會到最後一千億變兩千億那後面怎麼處理等等的我想工程會對這問題有沒有掌握到要怎麼解決\n\n07:33.298 --> 07:55.536\n因為台中南線大概我記得經費大概900多億這個中央政府的部分900多億那因為我們預算編列或規劃的階段在預算框的時候是舊的當年的指標等到這些基本設計已經審核定了細部設計也設計了施工完工那已經後面的事了\n\n07:55.836 --> 08:12.377\n所以顯然是這個之前的這個指標也許會受通膨相關的影響那這一部分我們工程會也會希望各機關在辦理公共工程的時候他的預算要編列的時候要注意到這樣的情形\n\n08:13.078 --> 08:30.773\n所以盡量而且要因地制宜甚至有的比較偏鄉造價比較高的該造價高的預算就偏比較多啦那另外就是在執行中如果有碰到這個廠商跟機關之間因為物價的問題需要調整或需要執行的那工程會呢都會\n\n08:32.214 --> 08:55.629\n站在比較協助解決的方向來加以諮詢或協調那另外就是說整個預算裡面機關有時候他也會準備物條的費用會編在裡面因為我們擔心說當然在編預算的確都有物條費的問題就是說現在是基本上每過五年每過十年又有一項這種大型工程當然第一個我們希望說\n\n08:57.250 --> 09:22.800\n大的問題是說我們大的工程能不能加速進行還不要拖五年十年但物價都不一樣了那另外一個回到工程面回到這個政府的對於這些工程進度的掌管的問題來講的話這個工程會在審相關案件的時候是不是應該直接把物價可能調漲的這個問題放進去審核的報告裡面讓他們知道說未來幾年不管是你們因為我想工程會可能掌握的\n\n09:23.981 --> 09:31.717\n資源或技術比地方政府或地方發包的或比地方工程的廠商來得多嗎你們比較知道說可能現行的物價值說未來\n\n09:32.987 --> 09:54.706\n會上漲多少的比例可能要先放進去而不是說我今年按現在的物價編完了比如說現在台東捷運你中央出900多億地方也才會出1000左右2000總共2000億左右的捷運纜線會不會明年就超過這金額所以我就多編的部分是不是能夠讓工程會有一個方案能夠讓地方政府能比較放心的去做這個事情\n\n09:54.926 --> 10:18.866\n好謝謝委員因為台中的藍線捷運因為之前有修正過如果在執行中有發現這個問題那主辦機關是台中市政府他可以再提修正再提修正經過行政院來審議如果覺得預算要調整的時候就會再核定這個修正計畫那因為還沒有完工所以沒有里約爭議的問題所以當中台中市政府可以提修正好主委謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.424,"end":6.017,"text":"好主席好主席我們請工程會陳主委好請陳主委"},{"start":13.581,"end":35.4,"text":"委員早主委早主委我想今天我是這個委員會質詢第七位那前面六位每一位都很關切我們這個預算的問題本席當然也要關切一下這個說我想主委對於預算的這個狀況我想掌握得非常清楚我剛剛六位的詢問本席在下面聽了很多個我想主委對這事情非常清楚但是我們要提的重點就是當然業務費兩億多左右被凍結了50%"},{"start":36.741,"end":45.557,"text":"那現在我們期待說工程會要提解凍嘛那我想很多委員都詢問說這個到底解凍案什麼時候能夠進行我想主委可不可以把我們程序稍微說一下"},{"start":46.161,"end":69.99,"text":"我們大院的要求是執行百分之三十以後就可以提嘛那我們就遵循大院的這個主決議執行百分之三十以後會提但是呢到底怎麼提現在我們還不太清楚是直接向大院提呢還是說由行政院整個所有部會中央政府整合預算向大院來提因為只有"},{"start":71.511,"end":98.371,"text":"就是院會只有審理行政院的案而已行政院的院會他很難說叫我們部會首長去那邊說明這個預算怎麼執行所以這個是立法院我印象所及從來沒發生過被要求在院會同意時的動之這件事情所以我想說是不是請大院先將這個解凍程序能夠對讓我們知道到底是程序是怎麼解凍的"},{"start":99.372,"end":125.107,"text":"那怎麼沒有違反那個組決議那否則的話坦白講啦如果說用復議來協商來解決這個問題是最好的方式可惜復議這條路已經沒有了這條路已經結束了啦 主委到底是要由工程會來提解動案還是由行政院來提解但我想這是行政部門的問題啦這是你們內部可能行政院自己各部會之間要怎麼協調我想這是行政院端的問題那我想對立法院來講"},{"start":126.507,"end":151.704,"text":"前面當然刪除預算凍結預算行政立法院具有主動權但現在我想最大問題是提解凍案的主動權應該在貴院就是行政院的各行政部門提解凍案你要先進來我們才能夠去討論說怎麼樣進行後續程序要先經過委員會再送到院會還是你們可以直接提報告案到院會裡面去解凍這當然是後續的討論但現在最大問題什麼我要跟這個"},{"start":152.825,"end":173.518,"text":"我主委也提醒一下如果你們去開行政院會的時候也要跟你們院長提醒一下現在問題是因為這個所謂的一四年的總預算到目前為止還沒有公告啦啊你沒有公告你當然沒有辦法去進行後面的這個流程嘛所以我們今天期待說今天提出來大家都針對數字針對程序來討論那本席在這邊要提的一個建議是說如果"},{"start":174.218,"end":185.263,"text":"要快的話其實應該是你們要先公告公告完我們才能去針對這個案子還有後面的不管是提解東岸也還提什麼樣東西因為現在這個東西現在未定嘛"},{"start":187.659,"end":205.58,"text":"前面要提復議所以到了上週才復議才結束復議才結束那現在還沒有公告我公告後你們才有所謂的主動權就行政單位才有主動權提出來我們在解凍預算這三個我想立法院相對來講是被動的啦"},{"start":206.781,"end":220.434,"text":"那我也相信這個主委我想你做事情也非常的明快也非常的這個直接啦我想也不用對自己這麼沒信心像提到說比如說這個金質獎也好或是像各項的業務也好大家就為什麼要取其凍結案不是刪除凍結最"},{"start":222.176,"end":243.664,"text":"最務實的做法 大家都很清楚 當委員都很清楚知道說 凍結案是希望說好好的報告 好好的說明說我這筆錢要做什麼 比如說您現在講說這個金質獎 因為凍結案 我接下來共產會今年要做金質獎的預算所以我需要這些錢 然後我想基於零基預算精神立法院聽了 委員們都覺得沒問題 當然就會給你們通過"},{"start":245.845,"end":260.86,"text":"主委應該不用這麼沒有自信說他錢不知道在哪裡我想你只要好好的解釋好好的說明這個凍結他既然是凍結而已他不是刪除就表示說大家只是對業務內容不熟悉不了解希望有報告然後就好處理了嘛主委怎麼看"},{"start":261.991,"end":284.905,"text":"報告委員關鍵就是說還要同意後市的動之同意不同意並不知道那這一部分如果如果是在委會處理因為既兩院互相制衡互相尊重那過去都行李如宜在委員會要刪要動都可以因為這次在院會比較特別所以讓我們想起說那立法院"},{"start":286.178,"end":309.167,"text":"去凍結行政院的預算而不是刪減這件事情到底有沒有違法之餘因為如果說我們這個預算是凍結比方這個預算防疫預算如果發生了疫情武漢肺炎COVID-19疫情發生了使得凍結那這是合法的如果說你要我同意要立法院同意你才能用那這是行政權"},{"start":310.601,"end":335.247,"text":"所以這部分是有疑慮的啦如果我們看過一些見解是有疑慮的主要是那個程序要請大院能夠明示到底我們要怎麼向院內來尋求解凍也許我們國會聯絡的人也會跟大院的議事組來講程序的部分當然要講這是兩院之間這個兩院院長也好或是各單位也好去協調啦那我們現在講的說是被動跟主動求院如果你們今天"},{"start":336.547,"end":357.464,"text":"遲遲的沒有公告 沒有提解凍案進來那我想不管是委員會也好 院會也好 我沒辦法處理啊今天就算 就像今天這樣子今天已經3月10幾號了嘛 那如果今天如果照正常程序 如果一切都按照正常程序不管預算的審查怎麼樣 或是後面有沒有提付議案我想按照往例 假設今天"},{"start":358.885,"end":382.352,"text":"這個整個立法院行政院的按照正常程序來講可能現在也執行30%就差不多要啟動相關程序了啦好所以我們期待還是要期待說這個主委要把這意見帶回去啦說你們在行政端這邊主要是說你們如果沒有提那立法院也沒辦法被動的處理我想要把這個事情把它來講清楚了好不好還有兩分鐘來我們針對一下內容這個我想這個"},{"start":386.314,"end":401.146,"text":"要提到工程會的部分就是針對這幾年很多營建通膨物價上漲的部分我們看到說包含基隆捷運還有高雄的捷運從過去這些年它的經費都漲非常非常多那麼像過去的這幾年營造工程物價指數也是連年上漲從105年的"},{"start":403.228,"end":428.044,"text":"最低82.15%到去年達到111.4%是歷史新高我們要問的是說對於這樣子的物價指數達到歷史新高對於我們想很多公共工程的影響性非常非常大可能流標也好或者是進度拖延也好不知道工程會對這樣的狀況有沒有具體掌握到那要怎麼樣解救我想很多地方建設陸陸續續在開展尤其是台中我想今年"},{"start":428.624,"end":451.576,"text":"大家都知道台中今天藍線要即將要動工要開始動那長達時期的工企會不會到最後又一天發生我們已經看到這麼多案子這麼多這個捷運工程都流標或者是在延後很多次那台中我想我們對於藍線台中非常期待這個造價上千億的工程會不會到最後一千億變兩千億那後面怎麼處理等等的我想工程會對這問題有沒有掌握到要怎麼解決"},{"start":453.298,"end":475.536,"text":"因為台中南線大概我記得經費大概900多億這個中央政府的部分900多億那因為我們預算編列或規劃的階段在預算框的時候是舊的當年的指標等到這些基本設計已經審核定了細部設計也設計了施工完工那已經後面的事了"},{"start":475.836,"end":492.377,"text":"所以顯然是這個之前的這個指標也許會受通膨相關的影響那這一部分我們工程會也會希望各機關在辦理公共工程的時候他的預算要編列的時候要注意到這樣的情形"},{"start":493.078,"end":510.773,"text":"所以盡量而且要因地制宜甚至有的比較偏鄉造價比較高的 該造價高的預算就偏比較多啦那另外就是在執行中如果有碰到這個廠商跟機關之間因為物價的問題需要調整或需要執行的那工程會呢都會"},{"start":512.214,"end":535.629,"text":"站在比較協助解決的方向來加以諮詢或協調那另外就是說整個預算裡面機關有時候他也會準備物條的費用會編在裡面因為我們擔心說當然在編預算的確都有物條費的問題就是說現在是基本上每過五年每過十年又有一項這種大型工程當然第一個我們希望說"},{"start":537.25,"end":562.8,"text":"大的問題是說我們大的工程能不能加速進行還不要拖五年十年但物價都不一樣了那另外一個回到工程面回到這個政府的對於這些工程進度的掌管的問題來講的話這個工程會在審相關案件的時候是不是應該直接把物價可能調漲的這個問題放進去審核的報告裡面讓他們知道說未來幾年不管是你們因為我想工程會可能掌握的"},{"start":563.981,"end":571.717,"text":"資源或技術比地方政府或地方發包的或比地方工程的廠商來得多嗎你們比較知道說可能現行的物價值說未來"},{"start":572.987,"end":594.706,"text":"會上漲多少的比例可能要先放進去而不是說我今年按現在的物價編完了比如說現在台東捷運你中央出900多億地方也才會出1000左右2000總共2000億左右的捷運纜線會不會明年就超過這金額所以我就多編的部分是不是能夠讓工程會有一個方案能夠讓地方政府能比較放心的去做這個事情"},{"start":594.926,"end":618.866,"text":"好 謝謝委員因為台中的藍線捷運因為之前有修正過如果在執行中有發現這個問題那主辦機關是台中市政府他可以再提修正再提修正經過行政院來審議如果覺得預算要調整的時候就會再核定這個修正計畫那因為還沒有完工所以沒有里約爭議的問題所以當中台中市政府可以提修正好 主委謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":408,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（10時39分）主席好，我們請工程會陳主委。"],["主席：好，請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["黃委員健豪：主委早。主委，今天我是委員會質詢的第七位，前面六位都很關切預算的問題，本席當然也要關切一下，我想主委對於預算的狀況掌握得非常清楚，剛剛對於委員們的詢答，本席在下面聽了很多，主委對這個事情非常清楚，我們要提的重點是業務費兩億多左右，被凍結了50%，現在我們期待工程會要提解凍，我想很多委員都詢問，到底解凍案什麼時候能夠進行？主委可不可以把程序稍微說一下？"],["陳主任委員金德：大院的要求是執行30%以後就可以提……"],["黃委員健豪：是。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們一定遵循大院的主決議，執行30%以後會提，但是到底怎麼提，現在我們還不太清楚，是直接向大院提呢？還是由行政院所有部會、中央政府總預算向大院來提？因為院會只審理行政院的案而已，行政院的院會很難叫我們部會首長去那邊說明預算怎麼執行。我印象所及，這個是在立法院從來沒發生過的，被要求在院會同意始得動支這件事情，所以是不是請大院先將這個解凍程序能夠讓我們知道，到底程序是怎麼解凍、怎麼做才沒有違反主決議？否則的話，坦白講，用覆議來協商解決這個問題是最好的方式，可惜覆議這條路已經沒有了。"],["黃委員健豪：這條路已經結束了，主委。到底是要由工程會來提解凍案，還是由行政院來提解凍案，這是行政部門的問題，可能這是你們內部、行政院各部會之間要協調，我想這是行政院端的問題。對於立法院來講，當然刪除預算、凍結預算，立法院具有主動權，但我想現在最大問題是提解凍案的主動權應該在貴院，是行政院各部會、行政部門提解凍案，你們要先進來，我們才能夠去討論怎麼進行後續程序，要先經過委員會再送到院會，還是你們可以直接提報告案到院會裡面去解凍，這當然是後續的討論。但現在最大的問題是什麼？我要跟主委提醒一下，如果你們去開行政院院會的時候也要跟你們院長提醒一下，現在問題是因為114年的總預算到目前為止還沒有公告，你們沒有公告，當然就沒辦法去進行後面的流程，所以我們期待今天提出來，大家都針對數字、程序來討論。","本席在這邊要提的建議是，如果要快的話，其實你們應該要先公告，公告完我們才能針對這個案子進行後面的處理，不管是提解凍案也好，提什麼東西也好，現在問題就是這個東西未定嘛，前面要提覆議，到了上週覆議案才結束，現在還沒有公告，公告後你們才有所謂的主動權，行政單位才有主動權提出來，所以我們在解凍預算這件事情來講，我想立法院相對來講是被動的。","我相信主委你做事情非常的明快，也非常的直接，不用對自己這麼沒信心，比如提到金質獎也好，或是各項業務也好，其實大家為什麼提凍結案而不是刪除？凍結是最務實的作法，大家都很清楚，當委員的都清楚知道凍結案是希望你們好好的報告、好好的說明這筆錢要做什麼。您現在講的這個金質獎，因為這個凍結案……接下來工程會今年要做金質獎的預算，所以需要這些錢，我想基於零基預算的精神，立法院委員們聽了都覺得沒問題，那當然就會給你們通過，主委應該不用這麼沒有自信的說不知道錢在哪裡，我想你們只要好好的解釋、好好的說明，關於這個凍結案，它既然只是凍結而已，不是刪除，就表示大家只是對業務內容不熟悉、不了解，希望有個報告就好處理了，主委怎麼看？"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，關鍵就是還要同意後始得動支，同意不同意並不知道，這一部分如果是在委員會處理，因為基於兩院互相制衡、互相尊重，過去都行禮如儀，在委員會要刪要凍都可以。這次在院會比較特別，所以讓我們想起立法院凍結行政院的預算而不是刪減的這件事情到底有沒有違法之虞？我們這個預算是凍結，比方說防疫預算，如果發生了疫情，武漢肺炎（COVID-19）疫情發生了始得動支，那這是合法的，如果要立法院同意才能用，那這是行政權，所以這部分是有疑慮的，我們看過一些見解，這是有疑慮的。主要是相關程序要請大院能夠明示，到底我們要怎麼向院會來尋求解凍，也許我們國會聯絡人也會跟大院的議事組來指教……"],["黃委員健豪：程序的部分，我想這是兩院之間……兩院院長也好或是各單位要去協調的，但我們現在講到的是被動跟主動的權利，如果你們今天遲遲沒有公告、沒有提解凍案進來，我想不管是委員會也好、院會也好，我們沒辦法處理啊！就像今天這樣子，今天已經三月十幾號了，如果一切都按照正常程序，不管預算審查的怎麼樣，或是後面有沒有提出覆議案，按照往例，今天整個立法院、行政院都按照正常程序來講，可能現在也執行百分之三十幾，差不多要啟動相關程序了，所以我們還是期待主委要把這個意見帶回去，你們在行政端這邊……主要是你們如果沒有提，當然立法院也沒辦法被動的處理，我想把這個事情講清楚，好不好？","還有2分鐘，主委，我們針對一下內容，針對工程會這幾年很多營建、通膨、物價上漲的部分，我們看到包含基隆捷運還有高雄捷運過去這些年的經費都漲非常非常多，過去這幾年營造工程物價指數也是連年上漲，從105年最低82.15%到去年達到111.4%的歷史新高，我們要問的是，這樣達到歷史新高的物價指數對於很多公共工程的影響是非常非常大，可能流標也好，或者是進度拖延也好，不知道工程會對這樣的狀況有沒有具體掌握？要怎麼樣解救？我想很多地方建設陸陸續續在開展，尤其是臺中，大家都知道今年臺中藍線即將要動工，長達10年的工期會不會到最後又發生問題，我們已經看到這麼多案子，這麼多捷運工程流標，或者延後很多次。我們對於臺中藍線非常期待，這個造價上千億的工程會不會到最後1,000億變2,000億？後面怎麼處理等等，工程會對這個問題有沒有掌握到？要怎麼解決？"],["陳主任委員金德：謝謝委員，我記得臺中藍線的經費大概九百多億，中央政府的部分是九百多億，因為我們預算編列或規劃的階段，預算在匡的時候是舊的，是當年的指標，等到這些基本設計已經核定了，細部設計也設計了，施工、完工已經是後面的事了。"],["黃委員健豪：對。"],["陳主任委員金德：所以顯然是之前的指標會受通膨相關的影響，這部分我們工程會也希望各機關在辦理公共工程預算編列時要注意這樣的情形，儘量要因地制宜，甚至有的比較偏鄉，造價比較高，造價高的預算就要編比較多。","另外，在執行中如果碰到廠商跟機關之間因為物價的問題需要調整或需要諮詢的，工程會都會站在協助解決的方向來加以諮詢或協調。此外在整個機關裡面的預算，有時候他們也會準備物調的費用編在裡面。"],["黃委員健豪：因為我是擔心……當然在編預算時的確都有物調費的問題，只是現在基本上每過5年、10年，尤其像這種大型工程，我們當然希望大的工程能不能加速進行，不要拖5年、10年，這樣物價都不一樣了。","另外回到工程面、回到政府對於工程進度的掌管的問題來講的話，工程會在審相關案件時是不是應該直接把物價可能調漲的這個問題放進去審核報告裡面？讓他們知道，未來幾年，我想工程會可能掌握的資源或技術比地方政府或地方發包還是地方工程的廠商來得多，你們可能比較知道現行的物價指數，未來會上漲多少的比例可能要先放進去，而不是今年按現在的物價編完了，比如現在臺中捷運中央出九百多億，地方出1,000億左右，總共大概2,000億左右的捷運藍線，會不會明年就超過這個金額？所以我覺得多編的部分，是不是工程會能夠有一個方案讓地方政府可以比較放心的去做這個事情？"],["陳主任委員金德：好，謝謝委員。因為臺中的藍線捷運之前有修正過了，如果在執行中有發現這個問題，主辦機關是臺中市政府，他們可以再提修正，經過行政院審議，如果覺得預算要調整，那就會再核定修正計畫，也因為還沒有完工，所以沒有履約爭議的問題，因此當中臺中市政府可以提修正。"],["黃委員健豪：好，主委謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員。","現在我們休息10分鐘。","休息（10時49分）","繼續開會（10時59分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","現在請林俊憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":222,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-3","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","黃健豪","林俊憲","蔡其昌","廖先翔","徐富癸","許智傑","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","陳俊宇","張啓楷","陳冠廷"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00014"}}}