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713.402, \"end\": 713.542, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 713.542, \"end\": 713.843, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 713.843, \"end\": 715.024, \"score\": 0.73}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 715.024, \"end\": 715.144, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 715.144, \"end\": 715.364, \"score\": 0.637}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 715.364, \"end\": 715.945, \"score\": 0.734}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 715.945, \"end\": 716.266, \"score\": 0.6}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 716.266, \"end\": 716.486, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"室\", \"start\": 716.486, \"end\": 716.966, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 716.966, \"end\": 717.107, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 717.107, \"end\": 717.507, \"score\": 0.71}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 717.507, \"end\": 717.687, \"score\": 0.767}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 717.687, \"end\": 717.808, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 717.808, \"end\": 717.948, \"score\": 0.593}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 717.948, \"end\": 718.048, \"score\": 0.64}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 718.048, \"end\": 718.228, \"score\": 0.77}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 718.228, \"end\": 718.428, \"score\": 0.741}, {\"word\": \"紙\", \"start\": 718.428, \"end\": 718.568, \"score\": 0.633}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 718.568, \"end\": 718.909, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 718.909, \"end\": 719.43, \"score\": 0.763}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 719.43, \"end\": 719.83, \"score\": 0.699}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"親\"}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 719.83, \"end\": 720.231, \"score\": 0.682}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"溝\"}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 720.231, \"end\": 720.571, \"score\": 0.725}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 720.571, \"end\": 720.711, \"score\": 0.669}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 720.711, \"end\": 720.851, \"score\": 0.724}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 720.851, \"end\": 721.292, \"score\": 0.701}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 721.292, \"end\": 721.392, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 721.392, \"end\": 721.712, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 721.712, \"end\": 722.293, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 722.293, \"end\": 722.954, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 722.954, \"end\": 723.134, \"score\": 0.647}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 723.134, \"end\": 723.955, \"score\": 0.701}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 723.955, \"end\": 724.135, \"score\": 0.691}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 724.135, \"end\": 725.617, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"吳\"}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 725.617, \"end\": 725.758, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"豪\", \"start\": 725.758, \"end\": 725.938, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 725.938, \"end\": 727.059, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 727.059, \"end\": 727.279, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"太\", \"start\": 727.279, \"end\": 727.46, \"score\": 0.732}, {\"word\": \"精\", \"start\": 727.46, \"end\": 727.66, \"score\": 0.648}, {\"word\": \"彩\", \"start\": 727.66, \"end\": 727.82, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 727.82, \"end\": 727.84, \"score\": 0.005}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 727.84, \"end\": 728.02, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 728.02, \"end\": 728.1, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"小\", \"start\": 728.1, \"end\": 728.261, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 728.261, \"end\": 728.441, \"score\": 0.719}, {\"word\": \"太\", \"start\": 728.441, \"end\": 728.581, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"早\", \"start\": 728.581, \"end\": 728.761, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"站\", \"start\": 728.761, \"end\": 728.982, \"score\": 0.617}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 728.982, \"end\": 729.682, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 729.682, \"end\": 729.803, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 729.803, \"end\": 729.943, \"score\": 0.711}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 729.943, \"end\": 730.083, \"score\": 0.711}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 730.083, \"end\": 730.884, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 730.884, \"end\": 732.106, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 732.106, \"end\": 732.266, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 732.266, \"end\": 732.286, \"score\": 0.005}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,593 --> 00:00:12,695\n謝謝主席有請吳主委請吳主委備質詢謝謝吳委員好\n\n2\n00:00:19,683 --> 00:00:45,388\n主委好我在2021年也就是三年多前曾經質詢過當時的科技部國發會的前身那我那時候呢其實是有鑒於我們國科會或者是過去的科技部他是負責我們知識的管理學門的分類所以當時呢我有特別要求說\n\n3\n00:00:46,528 --> 00:01:02,894\n做一個原住民研究學門的評估那當時呢我很感謝因為有提到這個學門要增設原住民族研究作為次領域那我當時非常高興而且呢也有經過110年度複審會議討論的決議說要把法律學經濟學以及社會學三個學門呢要增設\n\n4\n00:01:11,937 --> 00:01:27,253\n原住民族研究的次領域我當時非常的高興我也有發臉書不過我不知道主委您知不知道時至今日我們原住民族研究有沒有真正被放入次領域報告委員這一點我還不是很清楚\n\n5\n00:01:35,719 --> 00:02:03,348\n跟委員報告就是說依照目前我們在人文處裡頭的各個學門裡頭事實上都有原名相關的研究主題以去年的研究為例分佈在各個學門的原名相關研究大概就有16件那這樣我知道了我要講的就是這件事當時我會這樣子做質詢就是因為看到原住民的研究領域只有被放在主題市\n\n6\n00:02:04,548 --> 00:02:24,575\n那就我所知就是這三年多來其實還是沒有雖然當時有做出決議也給我回覆但是還是沒有我知道的是你們仍舊用五千多萬的專案來替代所以我一開始我希望主委您還是要重視這個問題\n\n7\n00:02:26,335 --> 00:02:42,850\n因為這個跟我接下來要問的問題是有關係的我希望這個部分我還是重新的要來要求既然國科會是負責知識的管理學門的分類那我不曉得說主委在您的認知什麼叫做知識體系我想這個很難定義\n\n8\n00:02:54,517 --> 00:03:07,032\n好那主委我跟您說我的看法是這樣因為這幾年有一個110到114的補助原住民知識體系你知道編列多少錢嗎五年編列18.6億您認為多還是不多\n\n9\n00:03:15,430 --> 00:03:42,519\n這個要看有多少研究的人是因為我自己也不敢講多還是不多我們當然希望越多越好但是我不知道我們的成果到底有沒有等量奇觀但是我現在知道的是說我們的原住民族的研究啊既沒有學門作為次領域然後呢你們給予的這一些所謂的專案補助計畫國科會也沒有上位的一個概念\n\n10\n00:03:43,513 --> 00:04:10,294\n我就不懂那原住民的知識體系到底要怎麼建構起來那現在我們的法源在原基法的第五條寫著中央原住民主管機關要會商教育科技文化等主管機關來建構原住民族知識體系現在我們原住民的知識體系建構的情形主委你有人跟你報告過嗎\n\n11\n00:04:12,706 --> 00:04:15,650\n還沒有你看沒有嘛我跟您說今天你們業務報告喔\n\n12\n00:04:21,028 --> 00:04:41,108\n02頁只有占第87頁占三分之一頁的篇幅就這樣而已整個計畫18.6億就這樣而已所以呢我要講的是說這個是有法源的也就去編列了這樣的一個法定預算經費好那現在我要問喔這邊有一個圖啊\n\n13\n00:04:44,444 --> 00:05:11,423\n有一個建構的圖說是排灣族的知識體系請問一下主委你看到這樣的一個圖你認為它是屬於什麼他說叫分類架構他把排灣族的知識體系分類成這樣下一頁你看這個喇喇族他也把他的知識你看建構成這樣那到底知識體系的建構要怎麼建構沒有人知道說不清楚\n\n14\n00:05:13,437 --> 00:05:20,865\n這麼重要的東西都說不清楚所以恐怕我要問進度跟成效諸位你應該也講不出來對不對因為沒有人跟你報告過\n\n15\n00:05:22,228 --> 00:05:48,898\n沒有嘛好那我跟您說其實你們是這樣子講的齁當時你們說要配合建構原住民知識體系說這個中長期計畫要分三個面向第一個叫知識建構第二個呢叫知識實踐第三個叫做雲端服務然後五年110到114今年是第五年18.6億要來做我知道的是\n\n16\n00:05:50,554 --> 00:06:01,562\n我們的原民會分配給國科會你們是要做雲端的服務那我真的不曉得說我該怎麼問下去你們到底執行了多少當時你們的經費佔比我來看好了這個是我們的那個概算表國科會的經費佔比是4.2億到底有沒有做我請我們處長好謝謝處長是報\n\n17\n00:06:18,425 --> 00:06:39,920\n報告委員就是剛剛最主要的那18億主要的預算可能是我們園民會那邊執行你們分配到4.2是在我們國科會這邊我們除了剛剛的這一個有一個專案每年是5800萬的這一個就是我們族群跟園民的特殊專案之外就是我們當年希望變次領域結果你們把它變成是專案補助5000多萬\n\n18\n00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:53,087\n喔不就是說它除了這個是專案補助之外剛剛跟委員報告每年有46件的那個執行案它不是在這個專案它是分布在各個那處長我懂了因為我下一頁就是要講這個我們看到這個知識體系中長城計畫當中\n\n19\n00:06:58,850 --> 00:07:18,286\n國科會這邊是說補助學生做一個原住民知識研究五年預計要補助八十件另外一個是補助學者推動原住民族的知識研究五年預計要補助兩百四十五件那再請教處長目前總共補助幾件\n\n20\n00:07:20,147 --> 00:07:35,856\n假如是以我們每年大概在各個學門有46件來看的話所以五年確實就是會有200多件那另外有關於學生的部分是我們補助大專生的研究計畫那這個部分的資料我們可能要再盤點一下\n\n21\n00:07:37,256 --> 00:08:00,723\n因為我看起來可能要到辦公室我們要來溝通討論一下因為我真的是不曉得說該要怎麼講你看這個文化知識體系的中長城計畫建制原住民族知識數位資料庫主辦是科技部那我想說目前的進度如何有跟原民會合作嗎\n\n22\n00:08:02,591 --> 00:08:18,534\n跟委員報告這是另外一個計畫就是說我們有請政大關大偉老師協助的這個資料庫大概每年是兩千六百萬左右那目前這個計畫也正在執行中所以這個是政大有來主辦\n\n23\n00:08:19,847 --> 00:08:43,200\n是我們請關老師協助的一個那請教您知不知道這一些跟現在園民會主辦的各個族群的原住民知識體系建構那個計畫它有一個連通性嗎我知道他們彼此都有互相的一個非常綿密的一個協調所以是互相撈計畫嗎照理說應該是你們撈到那邊的計畫要做雲端處理對不對\n\n24\n00:08:48,206 --> 00:09:10,445\n有做雲端處理嗎還是說政大做的那個計畫其實就跟現在東華大學他們分配給各個大學做的知識體系差不多應該以國科的角度在研究的部分後設分析的部分會比較多一點那中間應該會有綿密的一個交流那有成果報告出來嗎\n\n25\n00:09:11,482 --> 00:09:37,544\n每一年每一年都有成果的報告那長什麼樣子你知道嗎裡面寫什麼東西你知道嗎我曾經看過一個成果他要做一個泰雅族的課綱他四年用兩千多萬一年五百多萬成果報告繳出來那個課綱長的樣子就是幾頁而已\n\n26\n00:09:41,397 --> 00:09:57,752\n到底知識體系是什麼做出來到底長什麼現在AI的時代來臨了我也看到國科會你們有一個版本人工智慧基本法那現在我要講的是說現在這個基本功其實\n\n27\n00:10:00,342 --> 00:10:12,210\n連我們國科會都說不出來知識體系是什麼更何況怎麼做知識的分類那這個基本功都已經亂七八糟我可以這樣講嗎那如果導入AI怎麼辦呢看綠啊看綠啊\n\n28\n00:10:15,341 --> 00:10:35,753\n無論如何我覺得國科會責無旁貸就是要來負責這些所謂知識的一個盤點儲存跟管理那現在如果要導入雲端要結合AI那我就覺得更恐怖啦為什麼呢因為科技始終來自於人性更何況我們已經看到很多報告\n\n29\n00:10:36,733 --> 00:11:05,728\nAI也會複製再製歧視喔因為它收集到的各種全世界各地原住民的資料收集很少喔所以當我們只是這樣子去撈資料我們的知識體系只是搜尋這些文獻文獻裡面已經很多歧視的不正確錯誤的資料我們再拿來做索引做關鍵字做雲端資料我覺得這個是很可怕的一件事\n\n30\n00:11:07,153 --> 00:11:27,978\n所以在這個部分我真的是希望說我們國科會我們既然來主責我們知識的分類我希望這個分類建構國科會還是要拿出態度那因為今年已經是第五年那過去我們也沒有在預算上面多做刁難苛責\n\n31\n00:11:29,958 --> 00:11:46,273\n但是今年是第五年而且會影響到要不要有第二期因為這個叫中長期計劃我們覺得非常的堪憂所以這個部分我在這邊特別提醒也希望說我們國科會協同園民會針對\n\n32\n00:11:48,336 --> 00:12:12,286\n這幾年的一個援助民族知識體系的建構提供書面資料就是這五年的執行狀況希望能夠來到辦公室做一個說明我也不想看紙本資料我們親自來溝通說明好不好好謝謝委員好謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝吳立豪委員剛剛質詢得太精彩了我不小心太早站起來不好意思那這個謝謝主委\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9593\t12695\t謝謝主席 有請吳主委請吳主委備質詢 謝謝吳委員好\n19683\t45388\t主委好我在2021年也就是三年多前曾經質詢過當時的科技部國發會的前身那我那時候呢其實是有鑒於我們國科會或者是過去的科技部他是負責我們知識的管理學門的分類所以當時呢我有特別要求說\n46528\t62894\t做一個原住民研究學門的評估那當時呢我很感謝因為有提到這個學門要增設原住民族研究作為次領域那我當時非常高興而且呢也有經過110年度複審會議討論的決議說要把法律學經濟學以及社會學三個學門呢要增設\n71937\t87253\t原住民族研究的次領域我當時非常的高興我也有發臉書不過我不知道主委您知不知道時至今日我們原住民族研究有沒有真正被放入次領域報告委員這一點我還不是很清楚\n95719\t123348\t跟委員報告就是說依照目前我們在人文處裡頭的各個學門裡頭事實上都有原名相關的研究主題以去年的研究為例分佈在各個學門的原名相關研究大概就有16件那這樣我知道了我要講的就是這件事當時我會這樣子做質詢就是因為看到原住民的研究領域只有被放在主題市\n124548\t144575\t那就我所知就是這三年多來其實還是沒有雖然當時有做出決議也給我回覆但是還是沒有我知道的是你們仍舊用五千多萬的專案來替代所以我一開始我希望主委您還是要重視這個問題\n146335\t162850\t因為這個跟我接下來要問的問題是有關係的我希望這個部分我還是重新的要來要求既然國科會是負責知識的管理 學門的分類那我不曉得說 主委在您的認知 什麼叫做知識體系我想這個很難定義\n174517\t187032\t好那主委我跟您說我的看法是這樣因為這幾年有一個110到114的補助原住民知識體系你知道編列多少錢嗎五年編列18.6億您認為多還是不多\n195430\t222519\t這個要看有多少研究的人是 因為我自己也不敢講多還是不多我們當然希望越多越好但是我不知道我們的成果到底有沒有等量奇觀但是我現在知道的是說我們的原住民族的研究啊既沒有學門作為次領域然後呢你們給予的這一些所謂的專案補助計畫國科會也沒有上位的一個概念\n223513\t250294\t我就不懂 那原住民的知識體系到底要怎麼建構起來那現在我們的法源在原基法的第五條寫著中央原住民主管機關要會商 教育 科技 文化等主管機關來建構原住民族知識體系現在我們原住民的知識體系建構的情形主委 你有人跟你報告過嗎\n252706\t255650\t還沒有 你看沒有嘛 我跟您說今天你們業務報告喔\n261028\t281108\t02頁只有占第87頁占三分之一頁的篇幅就這樣而已整個計畫18.6億就這樣而已所以呢我要講的是說這個是有法源的也就去編列了這樣的一個法定預算經費好那現在我要問喔這邊有一個圖啊\n284444\t311423\t有一個建構的圖說是排灣族的知識體系請問一下主委你看到這樣的一個圖你認為它是屬於什麼他說叫分類架構他把排灣族的知識體系分類成這樣下一頁你看這個喇喇族他也把他的知識你看建構成這樣那到底知識體系的建構要怎麼建構沒有人知道說不清楚\n313437\t320865\t這麼重要的東西都說不清楚所以恐怕我要問進度跟成效諸位你應該也講不出來對不對因為沒有人跟你報告過\n322228\t348898\t沒有嘛好那我跟您說其實你們是這樣子講的齁當時你們說要配合建構原住民知識體系說這個中長期計畫要分三個面向第一個叫知識建構第二個呢叫知識實踐第三個叫做雲端服務然後五年110到114今年是第五年18.6億要來做我知道的是\n350554\t361562\t我們的原民會分配給國科會你們是要做雲端的服務那我真的不曉得說我該怎麼問下去你們到底執行了多少當時你們的經費佔比我來看好了這個是我們的那個概算表國科會的經費佔比是4.2億到底有沒有做我請我們處長好 謝謝處長是 報\n378425\t399920\t報告委員就是剛剛最主要的那18億主要的預算可能是我們園民會那邊執行你們分配到4.2是在我們國科會這邊我們除了剛剛的這一個有一個專案每年是5800萬的這一個就是我們族群跟園民的特殊專案之外就是我們當年希望變次領域結果你們把它變成是專案補助5000多萬\n400600\t413087\t喔不就是說它除了這個是專案補助之外剛剛跟委員報告每年有46件的那個執行案它不是在這個專案它是分布在各個那處長我懂了因為我下一頁就是要講這個我們看到這個知識體系中長城計畫當中\n418850\t438286\t國科會這邊是說補助學生做一個原住民知識研究五年預計要補助八十件另外一個是補助學者推動原住民族的知識研究五年預計要補助兩百四十五件那再請教處長目前總共補助幾件\n440147\t455856\t假如是以我們每年大概在各個學門有46件來看的話所以五年確實就是會有200多件那另外有關於學生的部分是我們補助大專生的研究計畫那這個部分的資料我們可能要再盤點一下\n457256\t480723\t因為我看起來可能要到辦公室我們要來溝通討論一下因為我真的是不曉得說該要怎麼講你看這個文化知識體系的中長城計畫建制原住民族知識數位資料庫主辦是科技部那我想說目前的進度如何有跟原民會合作嗎\n482591\t498534\t跟委員報告這是另外一個計畫就是說我們有請政大關大偉老師協助的這個資料庫大概每年是兩千六百萬左右那目前這個計畫也正在執行中所以這個是政大有來主辦\n499847\t523200\t是我們請關老師協助的一個那請教您知不知道這一些跟現在園民會主辦的各個族群的原住民知識體系建構那個計畫它有一個連通性嗎我知道他們彼此都有互相的一個非常綿密的一個協調所以是互相撈計畫嗎照理說應該是你們撈到那邊的計畫要做雲端處理對不對\n528206\t550445\t有做雲端處理嗎還是說政大做的那個計畫其實就跟現在東華大學他們分配給各個大學做的知識體系差不多應該以國科的角度在研究的部分後設分析的部分會比較多一點那中間應該會有綿密的一個交流那有成果報告出來嗎\n551482\t577544\t每一年每一年都有成果的報告那長什麼樣子你知道嗎裡面寫什麼東西你知道嗎我曾經看過一個成果他要做一個泰雅族的課綱他四年用兩千多萬一年五百多萬成果報告繳出來那個課綱長的樣子就是幾頁而已\n581397\t597752\t到底知識體系是什麼做出來到底長什麼現在AI的時代來臨了我也看到國科會你們有一個版本人工智慧基本法那現在我要講的是說現在這個基本功其實\n600342\t612210\t連我們國科會都說不出來知識體系是什麼更何況怎麼做知識的分類那這個基本功都已經亂七八糟我可以這樣講嗎那如果導入AI怎麼辦呢看綠啊看綠啊\n615341\t635753\t無論如何我覺得國科會責無旁貸就是要來負責這些所謂知識的一個盤點儲存跟管理那現在如果要導入雲端要結合AI那我就覺得更恐怖啦為什麼呢因為科技始終來自於人性更何況我們已經看到很多報告\n636733\t665728\tAI也會複製再製歧視喔因為它收集到的各種全世界各地原住民的資料收集很少喔所以當我們只是這樣子去撈資料我們的知識體系只是搜尋這些文獻文獻裡面已經很多歧視的不正確錯誤的資料我們再拿來做索引做關鍵字做雲端資料我覺得這個是很可怕的一件事\n667153\t687978\t所以在這個部分我真的是希望說我們國科會我們既然來主責我們知識的分類我希望這個分類建構國科會還是要拿出態度那因為今年已經是第五年那過去我們也沒有在預算上面多做刁難苛責\n689958\t706273\t但是今年是第五年而且會影響到要不要有第二期因為這個叫中長期計劃我們覺得非常的堪憂所以這個部分我在這邊特別提醒也希望說我們國科會協同園民會針對\n708336\t732286\t這幾年的一個援助民族知識體系的建構提供書面資料就是這五年的執行狀況希望能夠來到辦公室做一個說明我也不想看紙本資料我們親自來溝通說明好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席謝謝吳立豪委員剛剛質詢得太精彩了我不小心太早站起來不好意思那這個謝謝主委\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請吳主委請吳主委備質詢 謝謝吳委員好\n主委好我在2021年也就是三年多前曾經質詢過當時的科技部國發會的前身那我那時候呢其實是有鑒於我們國科會或者是過去的科技部他是負責我們知識的管理學門的分類所以當時呢我有特別要求說\n做一個原住民研究學門的評估那當時呢我很感謝因為有提到這個學門要增設原住民族研究作為次領域那我當時非常高興而且呢也有經過110年度複審會議討論的決議說要把法律學經濟學以及社會學三個學門呢要增設\n原住民族研究的次領域我當時非常的高興我也有發臉書不過我不知道主委您知不知道時至今日我們原住民族研究有沒有真正被放入次領域報告委員這一點我還不是很清楚\n跟委員報告就是說依照目前我們在人文處裡頭的各個學門裡頭事實上都有原名相關的研究主題以去年的研究為例分佈在各個學門的原名相關研究大概就有16件那這樣我知道了我要講的就是這件事當時我會這樣子做質詢就是因為看到原住民的研究領域只有被放在主題市\n那就我所知就是這三年多來其實還是沒有雖然當時有做出決議也給我回覆但是還是沒有我知道的是你們仍舊用五千多萬的專案來替代所以我一開始我希望主委您還是要重視這個問題\n因為這個跟我接下來要問的問題是有關係的我希望這個部分我還是重新的要來要求既然國科會是負責知識的管理 學門的分類那我不曉得說 主委在您的認知 什麼叫做知識體系我想這個很難定義\n好那主委我跟您說我的看法是這樣因為這幾年有一個110到114的補助原住民知識體系你知道編列多少錢嗎五年編列18.6億您認為多還是不多\n這個要看有多少研究的人是 因為我自己也不敢講多還是不多我們當然希望越多越好但是我不知道我們的成果到底有沒有等量奇觀但是我現在知道的是說我們的原住民族的研究啊既沒有學門作為次領域然後呢你們給予的這一些所謂的專案補助計畫國科會也沒有上位的一個概念\n我就不懂 那原住民的知識體系到底要怎麼建構起來那現在我們的法源在原基法的第五條寫著中央原住民主管機關要會商 教育 科技 文化等主管機關來建構原住民族知識體系現在我們原住民的知識體系建構的情形主委 你有人跟你報告過嗎\n還沒有 你看沒有嘛 我跟您說今天你們業務報告喔\n02頁只有占第87頁占三分之一頁的篇幅就這樣而已整個計畫18.6億就這樣而已所以呢我要講的是說這個是有法源的也就去編列了這樣的一個法定預算經費好那現在我要問喔這邊有一個圖啊\n有一個建構的圖說是排灣族的知識體系請問一下主委你看到這樣的一個圖你認為它是屬於什麼他說叫分類架構他把排灣族的知識體系分類成這樣下一頁你看這個喇喇族他也把他的知識你看建構成這樣那到底知識體系的建構要怎麼建構沒有人知道說不清楚\n這麼重要的東西都說不清楚所以恐怕我要問進度跟成效諸位你應該也講不出來對不對因為沒有人跟你報告過\n沒有嘛好那我跟您說其實你們是這樣子講的齁當時你們說要配合建構原住民知識體系說這個中長期計畫要分三個面向第一個叫知識建構第二個呢叫知識實踐第三個叫做雲端服務然後五年110到114今年是第五年18.6億要來做我知道的是\n我們的原民會分配給國科會你們是要做雲端的服務那我真的不曉得說我該怎麼問下去你們到底執行了多少當時你們的經費佔比我來看好了這個是我們的那個概算表國科會的經費佔比是4.2億到底有沒有做我請我們處長好 謝謝處長是 報\n報告委員就是剛剛最主要的那18億主要的預算可能是我們園民會那邊執行你們分配到4.2是在我們國科會這邊我們除了剛剛的這一個有一個專案每年是5800萬的這一個就是我們族群跟園民的特殊專案之外就是我們當年希望變次領域結果你們把它變成是專案補助5000多萬\n喔不就是說它除了這個是專案補助之外剛剛跟委員報告每年有46件的那個執行案它不是在這個專案它是分布在各個那處長我懂了因為我下一頁就是要講這個我們看到這個知識體系中長城計畫當中\n國科會這邊是說補助學生做一個原住民知識研究五年預計要補助八十件另外一個是補助學者推動原住民族的知識研究五年預計要補助兩百四十五件那再請教處長目前總共補助幾件\n假如是以我們每年大概在各個學門有46件來看的話所以五年確實就是會有200多件那另外有關於學生的部分是我們補助大專生的研究計畫那這個部分的資料我們可能要再盤點一下\n因為我看起來可能要到辦公室我們要來溝通討論一下因為我真的是不曉得說該要怎麼講你看這個文化知識體系的中長城計畫建制原住民族知識數位資料庫主辦是科技部那我想說目前的進度如何有跟原民會合作嗎\n跟委員報告這是另外一個計畫就是說我們有請政大關大偉老師協助的這個資料庫大概每年是兩千六百萬左右那目前這個計畫也正在執行中所以這個是政大有來主辦\n是我們請關老師協助的一個那請教您知不知道這一些跟現在園民會主辦的各個族群的原住民知識體系建構那個計畫它有一個連通性嗎我知道他們彼此都有互相的一個非常綿密的一個協調所以是互相撈計畫嗎照理說應該是你們撈到那邊的計畫要做雲端處理對不對\n有做雲端處理嗎還是說政大做的那個計畫其實就跟現在東華大學他們分配給各個大學做的知識體系差不多應該以國科的角度在研究的部分後設分析的部分會比較多一點那中間應該會有綿密的一個交流那有成果報告出來嗎\n每一年每一年都有成果的報告那長什麼樣子你知道嗎裡面寫什麼東西你知道嗎我曾經看過一個成果他要做一個泰雅族的課綱他四年用兩千多萬一年五百多萬成果報告繳出來那個課綱長的樣子就是幾頁而已\n到底知識體系是什麼做出來到底長什麼現在AI的時代來臨了我也看到國科會你們有一個版本人工智慧基本法那現在我要講的是說現在這個基本功其實\n連我們國科會都說不出來知識體系是什麼更何況怎麼做知識的分類那這個基本功都已經亂七八糟我可以這樣講嗎那如果導入AI怎麼辦呢看綠啊看綠啊\n無論如何我覺得國科會責無旁貸就是要來負責這些所謂知識的一個盤點儲存跟管理那現在如果要導入雲端要結合AI那我就覺得更恐怖啦為什麼呢因為科技始終來自於人性更何況我們已經看到很多報告\nAI也會複製再製歧視喔因為它收集到的各種全世界各地原住民的資料收集很少喔所以當我們只是這樣子去撈資料我們的知識體系只是搜尋這些文獻文獻裡面已經很多歧視的不正確錯誤的資料我們再拿來做索引做關鍵字做雲端資料我覺得這個是很可怕的一件事\n所以在這個部分我真的是希望說我們國科會我們既然來主責我們知識的分類我希望這個分類建構國科會還是要拿出態度那因為今年已經是第五年那過去我們也沒有在預算上面多做刁難苛責\n但是今年是第五年而且會影響到要不要有第二期因為這個叫中長期計劃我們覺得非常的堪憂所以這個部分我在這邊特別提醒也希望說我們國科會協同園民會針對\n這幾年的一個援助民族知識體系的建構提供書面資料就是這五年的執行狀況希望能夠來到辦公室做一個說明我也不想看紙本資料我們親自來溝通說明好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席謝謝吳立豪委員剛剛質詢得太精彩了我不小心太早站起來不好意思那這個謝謝主委\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.593 --> 00:12.695\n謝謝主席有請吳主委請吳主委備質詢謝謝吳委員好\n\n00:19.683 --> 00:45.388\n主委好我在2021年也就是三年多前曾經質詢過當時的科技部國發會的前身那我那時候呢其實是有鑒於我們國科會或者是過去的科技部他是負責我們知識的管理學門的分類所以當時呢我有特別要求說\n\n00:46.528 --> 01:02.894\n做一個原住民研究學門的評估那當時呢我很感謝因為有提到這個學門要增設原住民族研究作為次領域那我當時非常高興而且呢也有經過110年度複審會議討論的決議說要把法律學經濟學以及社會學三個學門呢要增設\n\n01:11.937 --> 01:27.253\n原住民族研究的次領域我當時非常的高興我也有發臉書不過我不知道主委您知不知道時至今日我們原住民族研究有沒有真正被放入次領域報告委員這一點我還不是很清楚\n\n01:35.719 --> 02:03.348\n跟委員報告就是說依照目前我們在人文處裡頭的各個學門裡頭事實上都有原名相關的研究主題以去年的研究為例分佈在各個學門的原名相關研究大概就有16件那這樣我知道了我要講的就是這件事當時我會這樣子做質詢就是因為看到原住民的研究領域只有被放在主題市\n\n02:04.548 --> 02:24.575\n那就我所知就是這三年多來其實還是沒有雖然當時有做出決議也給我回覆但是還是沒有我知道的是你們仍舊用五千多萬的專案來替代所以我一開始我希望主委您還是要重視這個問題\n\n02:26.335 --> 02:42.850\n因為這個跟我接下來要問的問題是有關係的我希望這個部分我還是重新的要來要求既然國科會是負責知識的管理學門的分類那我不曉得說主委在您的認知什麼叫做知識體系我想這個很難定義\n\n02:54.517 --> 03:07.032\n好那主委我跟您說我的看法是這樣因為這幾年有一個110到114的補助原住民知識體系你知道編列多少錢嗎五年編列18.6億您認為多還是不多\n\n03:15.430 --> 03:42.519\n這個要看有多少研究的人是因為我自己也不敢講多還是不多我們當然希望越多越好但是我不知道我們的成果到底有沒有等量奇觀但是我現在知道的是說我們的原住民族的研究啊既沒有學門作為次領域然後呢你們給予的這一些所謂的專案補助計畫國科會也沒有上位的一個概念\n\n03:43.513 --> 04:10.294\n我就不懂那原住民的知識體系到底要怎麼建構起來那現在我們的法源在原基法的第五條寫著中央原住民主管機關要會商教育科技文化等主管機關來建構原住民族知識體系現在我們原住民的知識體系建構的情形主委你有人跟你報告過嗎\n\n04:12.706 --> 04:15.650\n還沒有你看沒有嘛我跟您說今天你們業務報告喔\n\n04:21.028 --> 04:41.108\n02頁只有占第87頁占三分之一頁的篇幅就這樣而已整個計畫18.6億就這樣而已所以呢我要講的是說這個是有法源的也就去編列了這樣的一個法定預算經費好那現在我要問喔這邊有一個圖啊\n\n04:44.444 --> 05:11.423\n有一個建構的圖說是排灣族的知識體系請問一下主委你看到這樣的一個圖你認為它是屬於什麼他說叫分類架構他把排灣族的知識體系分類成這樣下一頁你看這個喇喇族他也把他的知識你看建構成這樣那到底知識體系的建構要怎麼建構沒有人知道說不清楚\n\n05:13.437 --> 05:20.865\n這麼重要的東西都說不清楚所以恐怕我要問進度跟成效諸位你應該也講不出來對不對因為沒有人跟你報告過\n\n05:22.228 --> 05:48.898\n沒有嘛好那我跟您說其實你們是這樣子講的齁當時你們說要配合建構原住民知識體系說這個中長期計畫要分三個面向第一個叫知識建構第二個呢叫知識實踐第三個叫做雲端服務然後五年110到114今年是第五年18.6億要來做我知道的是\n\n05:50.554 --> 06:01.562\n我們的原民會分配給國科會你們是要做雲端的服務那我真的不曉得說我該怎麼問下去你們到底執行了多少當時你們的經費佔比我來看好了這個是我們的那個概算表國科會的經費佔比是4.2億到底有沒有做我請我們處長好謝謝處長是報\n\n06:18.425 --> 06:39.920\n報告委員就是剛剛最主要的那18億主要的預算可能是我們園民會那邊執行你們分配到4.2是在我們國科會這邊我們除了剛剛的這一個有一個專案每年是5800萬的這一個就是我們族群跟園民的特殊專案之外就是我們當年希望變次領域結果你們把它變成是專案補助5000多萬\n\n06:40.600 --> 06:53.087\n喔不就是說它除了這個是專案補助之外剛剛跟委員報告每年有46件的那個執行案它不是在這個專案它是分布在各個那處長我懂了因為我下一頁就是要講這個我們看到這個知識體系中長城計畫當中\n\n06:58.850 --> 07:18.286\n國科會這邊是說補助學生做一個原住民知識研究五年預計要補助八十件另外一個是補助學者推動原住民族的知識研究五年預計要補助兩百四十五件那再請教處長目前總共補助幾件\n\n07:20.147 --> 07:35.856\n假如是以我們每年大概在各個學門有46件來看的話所以五年確實就是會有200多件那另外有關於學生的部分是我們補助大專生的研究計畫那這個部分的資料我們可能要再盤點一下\n\n07:37.256 --> 08:00.723\n因為我看起來可能要到辦公室我們要來溝通討論一下因為我真的是不曉得說該要怎麼講你看這個文化知識體系的中長城計畫建制原住民族知識數位資料庫主辦是科技部那我想說目前的進度如何有跟原民會合作嗎\n\n08:02.591 --> 08:18.534\n跟委員報告這是另外一個計畫就是說我們有請政大關大偉老師協助的這個資料庫大概每年是兩千六百萬左右那目前這個計畫也正在執行中所以這個是政大有來主辦\n\n08:19.847 --> 08:43.200\n是我們請關老師協助的一個那請教您知不知道這一些跟現在園民會主辦的各個族群的原住民知識體系建構那個計畫它有一個連通性嗎我知道他們彼此都有互相的一個非常綿密的一個協調所以是互相撈計畫嗎照理說應該是你們撈到那邊的計畫要做雲端處理對不對\n\n08:48.206 --> 09:10.445\n有做雲端處理嗎還是說政大做的那個計畫其實就跟現在東華大學他們分配給各個大學做的知識體系差不多應該以國科的角度在研究的部分後設分析的部分會比較多一點那中間應該會有綿密的一個交流那有成果報告出來嗎\n\n09:11.482 --> 09:37.544\n每一年每一年都有成果的報告那長什麼樣子你知道嗎裡面寫什麼東西你知道嗎我曾經看過一個成果他要做一個泰雅族的課綱他四年用兩千多萬一年五百多萬成果報告繳出來那個課綱長的樣子就是幾頁而已\n\n09:41.397 --> 09:57.752\n到底知識體系是什麼做出來到底長什麼現在AI的時代來臨了我也看到國科會你們有一個版本人工智慧基本法那現在我要講的是說現在這個基本功其實\n\n10:00.342 --> 10:12.210\n連我們國科會都說不出來知識體系是什麼更何況怎麼做知識的分類那這個基本功都已經亂七八糟我可以這樣講嗎那如果導入AI怎麼辦呢看綠啊看綠啊\n\n10:15.341 --> 10:35.753\n無論如何我覺得國科會責無旁貸就是要來負責這些所謂知識的一個盤點儲存跟管理那現在如果要導入雲端要結合AI那我就覺得更恐怖啦為什麼呢因為科技始終來自於人性更何況我們已經看到很多報告\n\n10:36.733 --> 11:05.728\nAI也會複製再製歧視喔因為它收集到的各種全世界各地原住民的資料收集很少喔所以當我們只是這樣子去撈資料我們的知識體系只是搜尋這些文獻文獻裡面已經很多歧視的不正確錯誤的資料我們再拿來做索引做關鍵字做雲端資料我覺得這個是很可怕的一件事\n\n11:07.153 --> 11:27.978\n所以在這個部分我真的是希望說我們國科會我們既然來主責我們知識的分類我希望這個分類建構國科會還是要拿出態度那因為今年已經是第五年那過去我們也沒有在預算上面多做刁難苛責\n\n11:29.958 --> 11:46.273\n但是今年是第五年而且會影響到要不要有第二期因為這個叫中長期計劃我們覺得非常的堪憂所以這個部分我在這邊特別提醒也希望說我們國科會協同園民會針對\n\n11:48.336 --> 12:12.286\n這幾年的一個援助民族知識體系的建構提供書面資料就是這五年的執行狀況希望能夠來到辦公室做一個說明我也不想看紙本資料我們親自來溝通說明好不好好謝謝委員好謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝吳立豪委員剛剛質詢得太精彩了我不小心太早站起來不好意思那這個謝謝主委\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.593,"end":12.695,"text":"謝謝主席 有請吳主委請吳主委備質詢 謝謝吳委員好"},{"start":19.683,"end":45.388,"text":"主委好我在2021年也就是三年多前曾經質詢過當時的科技部國發會的前身那我那時候呢其實是有鑒於我們國科會或者是過去的科技部他是負責我們知識的管理學門的分類所以當時呢我有特別要求說"},{"start":46.528,"end":62.894,"text":"做一個原住民研究學門的評估那當時呢我很感謝因為有提到這個學門要增設原住民族研究作為次領域那我當時非常高興而且呢也有經過110年度複審會議討論的決議說要把法律學經濟學以及社會學三個學門呢要增設"},{"start":71.937,"end":87.253,"text":"原住民族研究的次領域我當時非常的高興我也有發臉書不過我不知道主委您知不知道時至今日我們原住民族研究有沒有真正被放入次領域報告委員這一點我還不是很清楚"},{"start":95.719,"end":123.348,"text":"跟委員報告就是說依照目前我們在人文處裡頭的各個學門裡頭事實上都有原名相關的研究主題以去年的研究為例分佈在各個學門的原名相關研究大概就有16件那這樣我知道了我要講的就是這件事當時我會這樣子做質詢就是因為看到原住民的研究領域只有被放在主題市"},{"start":124.548,"end":144.575,"text":"那就我所知就是這三年多來其實還是沒有雖然當時有做出決議也給我回覆但是還是沒有我知道的是你們仍舊用五千多萬的專案來替代所以我一開始我希望主委您還是要重視這個問題"},{"start":146.335,"end":162.85,"text":"因為這個跟我接下來要問的問題是有關係的我希望這個部分我還是重新的要來要求既然國科會是負責知識的管理 學門的分類那我不曉得說 主委在您的認知 什麼叫做知識體系我想這個很難定義"},{"start":174.517,"end":187.032,"text":"好那主委我跟您說我的看法是這樣因為這幾年有一個110到114的補助原住民知識體系你知道編列多少錢嗎五年編列18.6億您認為多還是不多"},{"start":195.43,"end":222.519,"text":"這個要看有多少研究的人是 因為我自己也不敢講多還是不多我們當然希望越多越好但是我不知道我們的成果到底有沒有等量奇觀但是我現在知道的是說我們的原住民族的研究啊既沒有學門作為次領域然後呢你們給予的這一些所謂的專案補助計畫國科會也沒有上位的一個概念"},{"start":223.513,"end":250.294,"text":"我就不懂 那原住民的知識體系到底要怎麼建構起來那現在我們的法源在原基法的第五條寫著中央原住民主管機關要會商 教育 科技 文化等主管機關來建構原住民族知識體系現在我們原住民的知識體系建構的情形主委 你有人跟你報告過嗎"},{"start":252.706,"end":255.65,"text":"還沒有 你看沒有嘛 我跟您說今天你們業務報告喔"},{"start":261.028,"end":281.108,"text":"02頁只有占第87頁占三分之一頁的篇幅就這樣而已整個計畫18.6億就這樣而已所以呢我要講的是說這個是有法源的也就去編列了這樣的一個法定預算經費好那現在我要問喔這邊有一個圖啊"},{"start":284.444,"end":311.423,"text":"有一個建構的圖說是排灣族的知識體系請問一下主委你看到這樣的一個圖你認為它是屬於什麼他說叫分類架構他把排灣族的知識體系分類成這樣下一頁你看這個喇喇族他也把他的知識你看建構成這樣那到底知識體系的建構要怎麼建構沒有人知道說不清楚"},{"start":313.437,"end":320.865,"text":"這麼重要的東西都說不清楚所以恐怕我要問進度跟成效諸位你應該也講不出來對不對因為沒有人跟你報告過"},{"start":322.228,"end":348.898,"text":"沒有嘛好那我跟您說其實你們是這樣子講的齁當時你們說要配合建構原住民知識體系說這個中長期計畫要分三個面向第一個叫知識建構第二個呢叫知識實踐第三個叫做雲端服務然後五年110到114今年是第五年18.6億要來做我知道的是"},{"start":350.554,"end":361.562,"text":"我們的原民會分配給國科會你們是要做雲端的服務那我真的不曉得說我該怎麼問下去你們到底執行了多少當時你們的經費佔比我來看好了這個是我們的那個概算表國科會的經費佔比是4.2億到底有沒有做我請我們處長好 謝謝處長是 報"},{"start":378.425,"end":399.92,"text":"報告委員就是剛剛最主要的那18億主要的預算可能是我們園民會那邊執行你們分配到4.2是在我們國科會這邊我們除了剛剛的這一個有一個專案每年是5800萬的這一個就是我們族群跟園民的特殊專案之外就是我們當年希望變次領域結果你們把它變成是專案補助5000多萬"},{"start":400.6,"end":413.087,"text":"喔不就是說它除了這個是專案補助之外剛剛跟委員報告每年有46件的那個執行案它不是在這個專案它是分布在各個那處長我懂了因為我下一頁就是要講這個我們看到這個知識體系中長城計畫當中"},{"start":418.85,"end":438.286,"text":"國科會這邊是說補助學生做一個原住民知識研究五年預計要補助八十件另外一個是補助學者推動原住民族的知識研究五年預計要補助兩百四十五件那再請教處長目前總共補助幾件"},{"start":440.147,"end":455.856,"text":"假如是以我們每年大概在各個學門有46件來看的話所以五年確實就是會有200多件那另外有關於學生的部分是我們補助大專生的研究計畫那這個部分的資料我們可能要再盤點一下"},{"start":457.256,"end":480.723,"text":"因為我看起來可能要到辦公室我們要來溝通討論一下因為我真的是不曉得說該要怎麼講你看這個文化知識體系的中長城計畫建制原住民族知識數位資料庫主辦是科技部那我想說目前的進度如何有跟原民會合作嗎"},{"start":482.591,"end":498.534,"text":"跟委員報告這是另外一個計畫就是說我們有請政大關大偉老師協助的這個資料庫大概每年是兩千六百萬左右那目前這個計畫也正在執行中所以這個是政大有來主辦"},{"start":499.847,"end":523.2,"text":"是我們請關老師協助的一個那請教您知不知道這一些跟現在園民會主辦的各個族群的原住民知識體系建構那個計畫它有一個連通性嗎我知道他們彼此都有互相的一個非常綿密的一個協調所以是互相撈計畫嗎照理說應該是你們撈到那邊的計畫要做雲端處理對不對"},{"start":528.206,"end":550.445,"text":"有做雲端處理嗎還是說政大做的那個計畫其實就跟現在東華大學他們分配給各個大學做的知識體系差不多應該以國科的角度在研究的部分後設分析的部分會比較多一點那中間應該會有綿密的一個交流那有成果報告出來嗎"},{"start":551.482,"end":577.544,"text":"每一年每一年都有成果的報告那長什麼樣子你知道嗎裡面寫什麼東西你知道嗎我曾經看過一個成果他要做一個泰雅族的課綱他四年用兩千多萬一年五百多萬成果報告繳出來那個課綱長的樣子就是幾頁而已"},{"start":581.397,"end":597.752,"text":"到底知識體系是什麼做出來到底長什麼現在AI的時代來臨了我也看到國科會你們有一個版本人工智慧基本法那現在我要講的是說現在這個基本功其實"},{"start":600.342,"end":612.21,"text":"連我們國科會都說不出來知識體系是什麼更何況怎麼做知識的分類那這個基本功都已經亂七八糟我可以這樣講嗎那如果導入AI怎麼辦呢看綠啊看綠啊"},{"start":615.341,"end":635.753,"text":"無論如何我覺得國科會責無旁貸就是要來負責這些所謂知識的一個盤點儲存跟管理那現在如果要導入雲端要結合AI那我就覺得更恐怖啦為什麼呢因為科技始終來自於人性更何況我們已經看到很多報告"},{"start":636.733,"end":665.728,"text":"AI也會複製再製歧視喔因為它收集到的各種全世界各地原住民的資料收集很少喔所以當我們只是這樣子去撈資料我們的知識體系只是搜尋這些文獻文獻裡面已經很多歧視的不正確錯誤的資料我們再拿來做索引做關鍵字做雲端資料我覺得這個是很可怕的一件事"},{"start":667.153,"end":687.978,"text":"所以在這個部分我真的是希望說我們國科會我們既然來主責我們知識的分類我希望這個分類建構國科會還是要拿出態度那因為今年已經是第五年那過去我們也沒有在預算上面多做刁難苛責"},{"start":689.958,"end":706.273,"text":"但是今年是第五年而且會影響到要不要有第二期因為這個叫中長期計劃我們覺得非常的堪憂所以這個部分我在這邊特別提醒也希望說我們國科會協同園民會針對"},{"start":708.336,"end":732.286,"text":"這幾年的一個援助民族知識體系的建構提供書面資料就是這五年的執行狀況希望能夠來到辦公室做一個說明我也不想看紙本資料我們親自來溝通說明好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席謝謝吳立豪委員剛剛質詢得太精彩了我不小心太早站起來不好意思那這個謝謝主委"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":410,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（10時58分）謝謝主席，有請吳主委。"],["主席：請吳主委備詢。"],["吳主任委員誠文：伍委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委好。我在2021年，也就是三年多前曾經質詢過當時的科技部──國發會的前身，我那時候其實是有鑑於國科會或者是過去的科技部是負責知識的管理、學門的分類，所以當時我有特別要求做一個原住民研究學門的評估，當時我很感謝，因為有提到這個學門要增設原住民族研究作為次領域，我當時非常高興，而且也有經過110年度複審會議討論的決議，說要把法律學、經濟學以及社會學三個學門增設原住民族研究的次領域，我當時非常的高興，我也有發臉書。不過我不知道主委您知不知道，時至今日，我們原住民族研究有沒有真正被放入次領域？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，這一點我還不是很清楚。"],["黃處長俊儒：跟委員報告，依照目前人文處的各個學門裡頭，事實上都有原民的相關研究主題，以去年的研究為例，分布在各個學門的原民相關研究大概就有46件。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，這樣我知道了。我要講的就是這件事，當時我會這樣做質詢，就是因為看到原住民族的研究領域只有被放在「主題式」，就我所知，這三年多來其實還是沒有，雖然當時有做出決議，也給我回復，但還是沒有！我知道的是，你們仍舊用五千多萬的專案來替代，所以我希望主委還是要重視這個問題，因為這跟我接下來要問的問題是有關係的，這個部分我還是要重新來要求。","既然國科會是負責知識的管理、學門的分類，主委，我不曉得在您的認知當中，什麼叫做知識體系？"],["吳主任委員誠文：就是……我想這個很難定義啦！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委，我跟您說，我的看法是這樣，因為有一個110年到114年補助原住民族知識體系的計畫，你知道編列多少錢嗎？5年編列18.6億！您認為多還是不多？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個要看有多少研究人力啦！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是！因為我自己也不敢講多還是不多。我們當然希望越多越好，但是我不知道我們的成果到底有沒有等量齊觀。不過我現在知道的是，我們原住民族的研究既沒有學門做為次領域，然後你們給予的所謂專案補助計畫，國科會也沒有上位的概念，所以我就不懂，原住民族的知識體系到底要怎麼建構起來？現在法源在原基法，其中第五條寫著，中央原住民族主管機關要會商教育、科技、文化等主管機關來建構原住民族知識體系，有關現在我們原住民族知識體系的建構情形，主委，有人跟你報告過嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：還沒有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你看，沒有嘛！","我跟您說，今天你們業務報告內文總共102頁，只有第87頁有三分之一的篇幅和原住民族有關，就這樣而已！整個計畫18.6億，就這樣而已。所以我要講的是，這個是有法源的，也編列了這樣的法定預算、經費。那麼現在我要問，我現在出示一張建構的圖，說是排灣族的知識體系，請問一下主委，看到這樣一張圖，你認為它是屬於什麼？它說叫分類架構，把排灣族的知識體系分類成這樣。下一頁是Hla'alua（拉阿魯哇）族，它也把它的知識體系建構成這樣。請問到底知識體系的建構要怎麼建構？沒有人知道！說不清楚！這麼重要的東西都說不清楚！所以恐怕我要問進度和成效，主委應該也講不出來對不對？因為沒有人跟你報告過。","沒有嘛！好，我跟您說。其實你們是這樣子講的，當時你們說要配合建構原住民族知識體系，中長期計畫要分三個面向，第一個叫知識建構，第二個叫知識實踐，第三個叫做雲端服務，然後5年（110年至114年）要用18.6億來做，今年是第5年了。我知道的是，原民會分配給國科會的是要做雲端服務，那我真的不曉得我該怎麼問下去！你們到底執行了多少？根據概算表，當時國科會的經費占約4.2億，請問到底有沒有做？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我請我們處長來說明。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝處長。"],["黃處長俊儒：報告委員，剛剛說的最主要的那18億預算主要是由原民會那邊執行……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你們分配到4.2億。"],["黃處長俊儒：是，在我們國科會這邊，除了剛剛說的有一個每年5,800萬的族群跟原民的特殊專案之外……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：就是我們當年希望變次領域，結果你們把它變成專案補助五千多萬？"],["黃處長俊儒：喔，不，就是說它除了這個是專案補助之外，剛剛跟委員報告，每年有46件的執行案，它不是在這個專案裡面，而是分布在各個領域裡頭。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：處長，我懂了。因為我下一頁簡報就是要講這個。我們看到這個知識體系中長程計畫當中，國科會這邊是說補助學生做一個原住民族知識研究，5年預計要補助80件，另外一個是補助學者推動原住民族的知識研究，5年預計要補助245件，那麼再請教處長，目前總共補助幾件？"],["黃處長俊儒：假如是以我們每年大概在各個學門有46件來看的話，5年確實就是會有兩百多件。另外，有關學生的部分是我們補助大專生的研究計畫，這個部分的資料我們可能要再盤點一下，應該也是沒有問題的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，要盤點，我看可能要到本席辦公室來溝通、討論一下。"],["黃處長俊儒：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為我真的不曉得該怎麼講。你看，這個文化知識體系的中長程計畫說要建置原住民族知識數位資料庫，負責主辦的是科技部（現在的國科會），請問目前的進度如何？有跟原民會合作嗎？"],["黃處長俊儒：跟委員報告，這是另外一個計畫，我們有請政大官大偉老師協助這個資料庫，每年大概是2,600萬左右，目前這個計畫也正在執行中。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以這個是由政大主辦？"],["黃處長俊儒：是我們請官老師協助的一個……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那請教您知不知道，這些跟現在原民會主辦的各族群的原住民族知識體系建構計畫有連通性嗎？"],["黃處長俊儒：我知道他們彼此都有非常綿密的協調。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以是互相撈計畫嗎？照理說應該是你們撈到那邊的計畫來做雲端處理，對不對？有做雲端處理嗎？還是說政大做的那個計畫其實就跟現在東華大學、他們分配給各個大學做的知識體系差不多？"],["黃處長俊儒：以國科會的角度，應該是在研究的部分、後設分析的部分會比較多一點，中間應該會有綿密的交流。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：每年都有成果報告出來嗎？"],["黃處長俊儒：是，每一年都有成果報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：長什麼樣子？你知道嗎？裡面寫什麼東西？你知道嗎？"],["黃處長俊儒：這部分我們再跟委員報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我曾經看過一份成果報告，說是要做一個泰雅族的課綱，4年用兩千多萬，一年五百多萬喔！成果報告繳交出來，那個課綱長的樣子就是幾頁而已喔！所以到底知識體系是什麼？做出來到底長成什麼樣子？","現在AI的時代來臨了，我也看到國科會有一個「人工智慧基本法草案」的版本，我要講的是，現在這個基本功，連國科會都說不出來知識體系是什麼，更何況怎麼做知識的分類！這個基本功都已經亂七八糟！我可以這樣講嘛！如果導入AI，怎麼辦呢？堪慮啊！堪慮啊！","無論如何，我覺得國科會責無旁貸，就是要來負責這些所謂的知識盤點、儲存跟管理，現在如果要導入雲端，要結合AI，我就覺得更恐怖了！為什麼呢？因為科技始終來自人性，更何況我們已經看到很多報告，AI也會複製、再製歧視喔！因為它搜集到的世界各地原住民族的資料很少，所以當我們只是這樣子去撈資料，我們的知識體系只是搜尋這些文獻，而文獻裡面已經有很多歧視的、不正確的、錯誤的資料，我們再拿來做索引、做關鍵字、做雲端資料，我覺得這個是很可怕的一件事！所以針對這個部分，國科會既然主責知識的分類，我真的希望這個分類建構你們還是要拿出態度。","因為今年已經是第5年，過去我們也沒有在預算上面多做刁難、苛責，但是今年是第5年，而且會影響到要不要有第2期，因為這個叫中長程計畫，我們覺得非常堪憂，所以這個部分我在這邊特別提醒，也希望國科會協同原民會，針對這幾年原住民族知識體系的建構提供書面資料，就是這5年的執行狀況，希望能夠來到辦公室說明，我也不想看紙本資料，我們親自來溝通說明，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員。剛剛質詢得太精彩，我不小心太早站起來了，不好意思。謝謝主委，請回座。","我們接著繼續進行質詢，有請我們立院的新血，也非常歡迎劉書彬委員的加入，我們有請劉書彬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","林沛祥","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","葉元之","郭昱晴","范雲","陳培瑜","萬美玲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","林倩綺"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00002"}}}