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0.97}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 359.14, \"end\": 359.34, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 359.34, \"end\": 359.781, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"馳\"}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 359.781, \"end\": 359.801, \"score\": 0.857}]}, {\"start\": 360.948, \"end\": 376.942, \"text\": \"包委員因為其實燃氣跟燃煤它的排蛋係數不一樣所以我們未來這幾年減碳其實很大一部分就是燃氣燃煤換成燃氣所以這個其實是有效果的那另外一個就是說燃氣它的污染也比燃煤少很多所以目前這個階段是對的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 360.948, \"end\": 361.108, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 361.108, \"end\": 361.469, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 361.469, \"end\": 361.969, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 361.969, \"end\": 362.289, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"燃\", \"start\": 362.289, \"end\": 362.83, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"氣\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 362.83, \"end\": 362.99, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"燃\", \"start\": 362.99, \"end\": 363.19, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"煤\", \"start\": 363.19, \"end\": 363.41, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 363.41, \"end\": 363.53, \"score\": 0.695}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 363.53, \"end\": 363.631, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"排\", \"start\": 363.631, \"end\": 363.751, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"蛋\", \"start\": 363.751, \"end\": 364.211, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"係\"}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 364.211, \"end\": 364.371, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 364.371, \"end\": 364.972, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 364.972, \"end\": 365.072, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 365.072, \"end\": 365.092, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 365.092, \"end\": 365.272, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"未\", \"start\": 365.272, \"end\": 365.792, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 365.792, \"end\": 366.273, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"減\"}, {\"word\": \"碳\", \"start\": 366.273, \"end\": 366.513, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 366.513, \"end\": 366.713, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 366.713, \"end\": 366.893, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 366.893, \"end\": 367.033, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 367.033, \"end\": 367.114, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 367.114, \"end\": 367.274, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 367.274, \"end\": 367.454, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 367.454, \"end\": 367.594, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 367.594, \"end\": 368.134, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"燃\", \"start\": 368.134, \"end\": 368.995, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"氣\"}, {\"word\": \"燃\", \"start\": 368.995, \"end\": 369.195, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"煤\", \"start\": 369.195, \"end\": 369.616, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"換\"}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 369.616, \"end\": 369.736, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"燃\", \"start\": 369.736, \"end\": 370.456, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"氣\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 370.456, \"end\": 370.557, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 370.557, \"end\": 370.857, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 370.857, \"end\": 371.077, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 371.077, \"end\": 371.417, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 371.417, \"end\": 371.597, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"效\", \"start\": 371.597, \"end\": 371.878, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 371.878, \"end\": 372.078, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 372.078, \"end\": 372.498, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 372.498, \"end\": 372.658, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"另\", \"start\": 372.658, \"end\": 372.818, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 372.818, \"end\": 372.959, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 372.959, \"end\": 373.239, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 373.239, \"end\": 373.359, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 373.359, \"end\": 373.819, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"燃\", \"start\": 373.819, \"end\": 374.24, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"氣\"}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 374.24, \"end\": 374.38, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 374.38, \"end\": 374.48, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"污\", \"start\": 374.48, \"end\": 374.62, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"染\", \"start\": 374.62, \"end\": 374.88, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 374.88, \"end\": 375.04, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 375.04, \"end\": 375.181, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"燃\", \"start\": 375.181, \"end\": 375.341, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"煤\", \"start\": 375.341, \"end\": 375.521, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 375.521, \"end\": 375.741, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 375.741, \"end\": 375.961, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 375.961, \"end\": 376.422, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 376.422, \"end\": 376.522, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 376.522, \"end\": 376.602, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 376.602, \"end\": 376.782, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 376.782, \"end\": 376.802, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"階\"}, {\"word\": \"段\", \"start\": 376.802, \"end\": 376.902, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 376.902, \"end\": 376.922, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 376.922, \"end\": 376.942, \"score\": 0.001}]}, {\"start\": 378.263, \"end\": 402.554, \"text\": \"那當然我知道委員一定說希望關於核能的部分不過核能也跟委員報告其實真的要做的話其實我自己在算的時候也有問過台電或等等他包含要修正法規還有核安檢查核廢料的處理其實那個都不是我環境部可以來主管來推動的事情它的變數是非常多的在這個地方也跟委員報告所以我相信部長對這些也了解我們現在發電我們現在發電\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 378.263, \"end\": 378.403, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 378.403, \"end\": 378.623, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 378.623, \"end\": 378.823, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 378.823, \"end\": 378.903, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 378.903, \"end\": 379.043, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 379.043, \"end\": 379.424, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 379.424, \"end\": 379.524, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 379.524, \"end\": 379.944, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 379.944, \"end\": 380.044, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 380.044, \"end\": 380.964, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": 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383.906, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 383.906, \"end\": 384.166, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 384.166, \"end\": 384.306, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 384.306, \"end\": 384.386, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 384.386, \"end\": 384.586, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 384.586, \"end\": 384.746, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 384.746, \"end\": 385.286, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 385.286, \"end\": 385.446, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 385.446, \"end\": 385.586, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 385.586, \"end\": 385.706, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 385.706, \"end\": 385.846, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 385.846, \"end\": 386.067, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 386.067, \"end\": 386.227, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": 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389.308, \"end\": 389.448, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 389.448, \"end\": 389.648, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 389.648, \"end\": 390.548, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 390.548, \"end\": 390.689, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"核\", \"start\": 390.689, \"end\": 390.849, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 390.849, \"end\": 391.229, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 391.229, \"end\": 391.449, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"核\", \"start\": 391.449, \"end\": 391.789, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"廢\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 391.789, \"end\": 391.909, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 391.909, \"end\": 392.269, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 392.269, \"end\": 392.669, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 392.669, \"end\": 392.91, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", 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\"end\": 396.271, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 396.271, \"end\": 396.391, \"score\": 0.725}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 396.391, \"end\": 396.531, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 396.531, \"end\": 396.671, \"score\": 0.592}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 396.671, \"end\": 397.191, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"變\"}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 397.191, \"end\": 397.371, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 397.371, \"end\": 397.532, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 397.532, \"end\": 397.812, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 397.812, \"end\": 398.012, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 398.012, \"end\": 398.372, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 398.372, \"end\": 398.692, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 398.692, \"end\": 398.772, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 398.772, \"end\": 398.912, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 398.912, \"end\": 398.992, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 398.992, \"end\": 399.132, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 399.132, \"end\": 399.592, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 399.592, \"end\": 399.773, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 399.773, \"end\": 399.873, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 399.873, \"end\": 399.953, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 399.953, \"end\": 400.153, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 400.153, \"end\": 400.353, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 400.353, \"end\": 400.553, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 400.553, \"end\": 401.293, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 401.293, \"end\": 401.453, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 401.453, \"end\": 401.533, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 401.533, \"end\": 401.793, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 401.793, \"end\": 402.114, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 402.114, \"end\": 402.214, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 402.214, \"end\": 402.354, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 402.354, \"end\": 402.534, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 402.534, \"end\": 402.554, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}]}, {\"start\": 406.355, \"end\": 430.261, \"text\": \"結構最大的就是第一個就是燃氣嘛第二個就是燃煤再來就是再生能源然後再來核電跟燃油這個也是台電的數據那可是如果說以我們現在發電的方式你看那個燃煤發電最多燃氣發電最多可是你看它的碳排的係數它的碳排係數都是最高的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"構\"}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 406.355, \"end\": 406.575, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 406.575, \"end\": 406.755, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", 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\"所以針對這部分剛剛彭部長也有講所以我一直認為說以我們環境部這部分來講是不是核能發電其實應該還是要以環境部的立場應該是要考慮核電來納入對於我們減碳是不是比較有幫助包委員其實環境部唯一的主管就是說如果核電它的要除液還有或是說它的幹式儲存槽它需要環評這個是我們可以主管的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 431.164, \"end\": 431.344, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 431.344, \"end\": 432.365, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 432.365, \"end\": 432.525, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 432.525, \"end\": 433.185, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"彭\", \"start\": 433.185, \"end\": 433.345, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 433.345, \"end\": 433.505, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 433.505, \"end\": 433.685, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 433.685, \"end\": 433.925, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 433.925, \"end\": 434.246, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 434.246, 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\"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 835.386, \"end\": 835.547, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 835.547, \"end\": 835.567, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"圍\"}, {\"word\": \"恩\", \"start\": 835.567, \"end\": 835.587, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 835.587, \"end\": 835.747, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"圖\"}, {\"word\": \"遠\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 835.747, \"end\": 835.767, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:13,220 --> 00:00:23,909\n好謝謝請我們彭部長還有請一下我們衛福部的副署長衛福部哪位副署長圖爾元朝\n\n2\n00:00:26,598 --> 00:00:54,227\n好那我先請問一下我們衛福部請問一下我們目前我們十大癌症我們衛福部我問一下那個有關癌症的問題好那有關我們目前十大癌症我們蟬聯冠軍的是哪一個癌症委員你好我們這次是請國民健康署這邊來做相關的回答\n\n3\n00:01:02,687 --> 00:01:10,312\n委員是對我們十大癌症目前我們我們全國十大癌症然後纏連冠軍的是哪個癌症那個肺肺癌對啊喔是肺癌好對啦因為這個之前之前大腸癌嘛那現在這幾年都是肺癌已經纏連我們十大癌症的冠軍那\n\n4\n00:01:29,642 --> 00:01:37,458\n其實我們根據我們目前一些科學數據的驗證肺癌也跟我們空氣品質有絕對的關係有直接的關係對吧\n\n5\n00:01:40,728 --> 00:01:59,663\n那所以我們可以知道像我們有一個基因專家基因醫師張嘉明他也做過一個科學的報告也就是說他針對他們研究PM2.5跟肺腺癌的增加有密不可分的關係這部分我們衛福部這邊應該有掌握這個訊息吧有有嗎那\n\n6\n00:02:07,498 --> 00:02:22,823\n據我們這個報告有看到那我們針對肺癌的部分可是肺癌雖然跟我們抽菸也有直接的關係可是我們發現到有一個數據這裡面有三分之二的是完全沒有抽菸時的這部分\n\n7\n00:02:24,605 --> 00:02:42,094\n有沒有掌握這個訊息委員針對肺癌的部分目前其實發生的原因就是抽菸然後跟空氣汙染還有這個紫葉的曝露另外就是家族史對啊所以空氣品質就是抽菸還有我們空氣品質有絕對的關係所以我們經過我們發現這肺癌裡面\n\n8\n00:02:48,658 --> 00:03:07,651\n居然有三分之二的是完全沒有抽菸三分之一有抽菸死所以我們也可以從這個證明我們空氣品質對於我們肺癌有絕對直接的關係這一部分應該沒有問題吧它是其中的原因之一對嘛好那接下來我再問一下我們彭部長\n\n9\n00:03:09,563 --> 00:03:32,703\n因為這部分只是請我們衛福部來證明因為現在這癌症就是我們十大癌症已經纏連冠軍而且絕對跟我們空氣品質有絕對關係已經經過專家學者有科學數據的顯示那空氣品質當然抽菸還有我們PM2.5等等都是影響的因素那肺癌\n\n10\n00:03:33,303 --> 00:03:58,181\n肺癌患者裡面有三分之二是完全沒有抽菸所以我們也可以合理的推斷這三分之二就是因為我們空氣品質所造成的這部分部長應該同意吧同意不過委員這個空氣品質有室內跟室外例如說我們家裡面的很多的生活習慣大概佔了我們八成的時間都在室內所以室內跟室外不一樣但是我們有\n\n11\n00:03:59,702 --> 00:04:13,027\n數據顯示嘛就是PM2.5跟肺腺癌有密不可分的關係所以這部分也讓我們希望我們環境部是我們環境最高的主管機關我們衛福部可以先請下去了\n\n12\n00:04:14,875 --> 00:04:35,231\n那所以我們今天也是討論減碳的部分所以也凸顯了我們減碳是勢在必行因為這跟我們國人健康有絕對直接的關係那我們在今年初一月二十三號我們賴總統有召開第三次氣候變遷委員會的會議我記得我在去年的時候\n\n13\n00:04:35,911 --> 00:04:59,558\n那時候我們彭部長在8月23號也曾經講過在2032年我們檢探目標要往40%邁進這部分我記得彭部長你有說過吧就是我個人希望說未來2032年的時候我可以到那樣的目標但是我們後來召集各個部會得到這樣新的數字所以本來彭部長是希望能夠達到40%那後來\n\n14\n00:05:02,299 --> 00:05:24,161\n跟我們部會氣候變遷委員會討論之後後來新的目標是降低的嗎對就是說這個其實是因為當時我的理想我希望2032可以到40那我記得那時候李遠哲李院長他也希望說50所以我們後來但是我必須跟委員報告那個其實是我們會籍的環境部會籍的各個部會提出的減碳計畫最後得出這樣的數字\n\n15\n00:05:27,103 --> 00:05:39,728\n所以我記得我上次會期也有跟彭部長討論過因為我們現在的能源政策再加上我們彭部長的減碳目標我們覺得這個是背道而馳的因為我們現在\n\n16\n00:05:42,229 --> 00:05:59,801\n所發電的幾乎它的碳排量都是非常高那我們的能源政策碳排量都非常高那我們現在能源政策碳排量一直在增加結果我們環境部減碳的目標又一直定的那麼高所以我們說這好像是背道而馳嘛\n\n17\n00:06:00,948 --> 00:06:16,942\n包委員因為其實燃氣跟燃煤它的排蛋係數不一樣所以我們未來這幾年減碳其實很大一部分就是燃氣燃煤換成燃氣所以這個其實是有效果的那另外一個就是說燃氣它的污染也比燃煤少很多所以目前這個階段是對的\n\n18\n00:06:18,263 --> 00:06:42,554\n那當然我知道委員一定說希望關於核能的部分不過核能也跟委員報告其實真的要做的話其實我自己在算的時候也有問過台電或等等他包含要修正法規還有核安檢查核廢料的處理其實那個都不是我環境部可以來主管來推動的事情它的變數是非常多的在這個地方也跟委員報告所以我相信部長對這些也了解我們現在發電我們現在發電\n\n19\n00:06:46,355 --> 00:07:10,261\n結構最大的就是第一個就是燃氣嘛第二個就是燃煤再來就是再生能源然後再來核電跟燃油這個也是台電的數據那可是如果說以我們現在發電的方式你看那個燃煤發電最多燃氣發電最多可是你看它的碳排的係數它的碳排係數都是最高的\n\n20\n00:07:11,164 --> 00:07:40,479\n所以針對這部分剛剛彭部長也有講所以我一直認為說以我們環境部這部分來講是不是核能發電其實應該還是要以環境部的立場應該是要考慮核電來納入對於我們減碳是不是比較有幫助包委員其實環境部唯一的主管就是說如果核電它的要除液還有或是說它的幹式儲存槽它需要環評這個是我們可以主管的\n\n21\n00:07:40,799 --> 00:08:08,824\n那當然如果以減碳的話這個核能它的確是一個相對於低碳排的一個能源但是它也會有它的這個壓力存在所以這個部分呢還是要讓經濟部或是能源主管單位他們來送這個相關的規劃給我們但是以目前我那時候算我們淨零入境的情況下的確它是一個選項但是它後面的包含的未來未知的費用還有核廢料還有安全性等等其實有很多的變數在那個地方\n\n22\n00:08:10,097 --> 00:08:13,299\n好那我請問一下我們經濟部今天有代表來喔好再麻煩一下那現在\n\n23\n00:08:25,854 --> 00:08:54,265\n我們大家全球都在發展AI那麼也知道AI它的用電量劇增那針對這部分用電量劇增我們要因應我們AI的時代那可是如果我們要達到減碳要環境保育又要讓我們這用電劇增我們來應付這個用電的問題那我們經濟部這部分有沒有什麼方法來處理好跟委員報告一下\n\n24\n00:08:56,869 --> 00:09:19,050\n我先回答待會再請我們能源署的代表再做一個說明我想基本上我們對於這個AI的用電會增加部分我們已經有先事先規劃有一些發電量的這個部分是有配合除了這個以外供給面的部分是有在規劃那在那個減\n\n25\n00:09:20,772 --> 00:09:30,741\n這個節電的部分我們也在推這個深度節能讓這個我們的用電量是不是可以相對的可以減少我們的這個用電那能源署這邊是在做一個補充\n\n26\n00:09:31,485 --> 00:09:51,399\n那以我們現在這樣子的方式我們現在這樣子的能源政策我們有辦法應付AI這麼大的用電量嗎跟委員報告我們能源署每一年都會做電力供需的一個評估那AI的部分我們的產發署會跟業者做一個深切的瞭解半導體的產業我們也會把它估計去\n\n27\n00:09:53,141 --> 00:10:05,777\n每一年大概在6月之前我們就會做一個供需報告所以AI的估計我們其實是有規劃進去的那整體的用電其實跟委員報告應該是沒有問題的您放心\n\n28\n00:10:07,779 --> 00:10:33,247\n所以基本上我們現在要應付AI的用電矩陣然後我們要達到我們環境部我們要減碳又要環境保育等等問題你看連AIT美國在台協會古立言處長他都有講我們台灣是高度仰賴外國進口能源那美國是最大的能源出口國那他也提供天然氣提供再生能源當然\n\n29\n00:10:34,767 --> 00:10:54,068\n他現在好像也說他能夠提供最新的核能技術來支援我們那我們以這幾個前提之下我請問一下彭部長那如果這樣你的看法如何我們要兼顧要減碳要環境保育然後又要達到我們用電量\n\n30\n00:10:54,728 --> 00:11:19,606\n達到AI這些的用電量矩陣那環境部的立場是怎麼樣報告委員環境部的立場就是更多這種低碳對環境好的能源我們都歡迎不過也跟委員報告我也關注美國新的核能的發展的動態例如說他們的新的SMR那個NewScale的核電廠他們已經追加預算到105億美金所以其實他只有發大概只有400多MW\n\n31\n00:11:20,146 --> 00:11:33,778\n所以其實這個的費用是很難估計的如果未來國際上像美國他們有更好更新的已經有商業化運轉的我們當然會歡迎但是目前台灣我們還是只能靠自己去做一個轉型的工作\n\n32\n00:11:35,595 --> 00:12:02,903\n那所以其實之前我們也做過以核氧綠的公投那有六成的民眾是支持那我們也現在看到其實我們整體燃煤燃氣再生能源其實它的發電量整體進度上我們看起來也是落後的所以其實這個新的核能技術如果能夠提供又達到我們之前公投以核氧綠的結果然後也可以讓我們減碳也可以\n\n33\n00:12:03,503 --> 00:12:21,988\n讓我們的環境保育工作可以做得更好那這一部分我倒覺得是不是我們可以來考量一下這一部分而且新的核能政策整體來講人家現在來講目前核能也是最好的綠能那這一部分彭副長你也贊同嗎\n\n34\n00:12:22,828 --> 00:12:52,088\n核能不是綠能核能是乾淨的能源可是目前來講它整體來講它碳排量應該是非常非常低但是其實也報告委員我對核能並沒有什麼任何立場我很務實在看但是現實就在眼前因為它在國際上新的核能發展的技術費用非常的高而且還不確定那另外一個是研議的成本也可能在這個裡面所以委員如果你們可以解決我當然這個是樂觀其成但是這個壓力會非常的大\n\n35\n00:12:52,868 --> 00:13:14,638\n所以其實以目前來講我們姑且不談我們目前的能源政策不講政治上的問題目前看起來如果這整體新的能源政策目前看起來如果說要應付這AI的時代用電俱增要達到減碳要達到環保整體來講目前這新的核能技術核能來講其實是一個蠻好的選項\n\n36\n00:13:16,139 --> 00:13:32,539\n包委員我們目前規劃2035的減碳目標是沒有把核能放進去的那當然未來如果有任何的改變或新技術當然是可以幫助但是我也特別提醒委員因為後面的成本還有引發性的這個社會上的這個不同的意見應該蠻大的也請委員都可以多考量\n\n37\n00:13:33,308 --> 00:13:55,767\n好那我也希望我們大家可以來務實推動這個能源的轉型我們要應付我們的用電量要兼顧這減碳要兼顧環保我覺得這部分我們大家像我們經濟部環境部應該針對這部分我們可以好好的思維一下怎麼應付我們後面所要面臨用電量巨增要兼顧減碳環保的問題好謝謝謝謝圍恩謝謝好謝謝圖遠謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n13220\t23909\t好 謝謝 請我們彭部長還有請一下我們衛福部的副署長衛福部哪位副署長圖爾元朝\n26598\t54227\t好那我先請問一下我們衛福部請問一下我們目前我們十大癌症我們衛福部我問一下那個有關癌症的問題好那有關我們目前十大癌症我們蟬聯冠軍的是哪一個癌症委員你好我們這次是請國民健康署這邊來做相關的回答\n62687\t70312\t委員是對我們十大癌症目前我們我們全國十大癌症然後纏連冠軍的是哪個癌症那個肺 肺癌對啊喔是肺癌好對啦因為這個之前之前大腸癌嘛那現在這幾年都是肺癌已經纏連我們十大癌症的冠軍那\n89642\t97458\t其實我們根據我們目前一些科學數據的驗證肺癌也跟我們空氣品質有絕對的關係有直接的關係 對吧\n100728\t119663\t那所以我們可以知道像我們有一個基因專家基因醫師張嘉明他也做過一個科學的報告也就是說他針對他們研究PM2.5跟肺腺癌的增加有密不可分的關係這部分我們衛福部這邊應該有掌握這個訊息吧有有嗎那\n127498\t142823\t據我們這個報告有看到那我們針對肺癌的部分可是肺癌雖然跟我們抽菸也有直接的關係可是我們發現到有一個數據這裡面有三分之二的是完全沒有抽菸時的這部分\n144605\t162094\t有沒有掌握這個訊息委員針對肺癌的部分目前其實發生的原因就是抽菸然後跟空氣汙染還有這個紫葉的曝露另外就是家族史對啊所以空氣品質就是抽菸還有我們空氣品質有絕對的關係所以我們經過我們發現這肺癌裡面\n168658\t187651\t居然有三分之二的是完全沒有抽菸三分之一有抽菸死所以我們也可以從這個證明我們空氣品質對於我們肺癌有絕對直接的關係這一部分應該沒有問題吧它是其中的原因之一對嘛好那接下來我再問一下我們彭部長\n189563\t212703\t因為這部分只是請我們衛福部來證明因為現在這癌症就是我們十大癌症已經纏連冠軍而且絕對跟我們空氣品質有絕對關係已經經過專家學者有科學數據的顯示那空氣品質當然抽菸還有我們PM2.5等等都是影響的因素那肺癌\n213303\t238181\t肺癌患者裡面有三分之二是完全沒有抽菸所以我們也可以合理的推斷這三分之二就是因為我們空氣品質所造成的這部分部長應該同意吧同意不過委員這個空氣品質有室內跟室外例如說我們家裡面的很多的生活習慣大概佔了我們八成的時間都在室內所以室內跟室外不一樣但是我們有\n239702\t253027\t數據顯示嘛就是PM2.5跟肺腺癌有密不可分的關係所以這部分也讓我們希望我們環境部是我們環境最高的主管機關我們衛福部可以先請下去了\n254875\t275231\t那所以我們今天也是討論減碳的部分所以也凸顯了我們減碳是勢在必行因為這跟我們國人健康有絕對直接的關係那我們在今年初一月二十三號我們賴總統有召開第三次氣候變遷委員會的會議我記得我在去年的時候\n275911\t299558\t那時候我們彭部長在8月23號也曾經講過在2032年我們檢探目標要往40%邁進這部分我記得彭部長你有說過吧就是我個人希望說未來2032年的時候我可以到那樣的目標但是我們後來召集各個部會得到這樣新的數字所以本來彭部長是希望能夠達到40%那後來\n302299\t324161\t跟我們部會氣候變遷委員會討論之後後來新的目標是降低的嗎對就是說這個其實是因為當時我的理想我希望2032可以到40那我記得那時候李遠哲李院長他也希望說50所以我們後來但是我必須跟委員報告那個其實是我們會籍的環境部會籍的各個部會提出的減碳計畫最後得出這樣的數字\n327103\t339728\t所以我記得我上次會期也有跟彭部長討論過因為我們現在的能源政策再加上我們彭部長的減碳目標我們覺得這個是背道而馳的因為我們現在\n342229\t359801\t所發電的幾乎它的碳排量都是非常高那我們的能源政策碳排量都非常高那我們現在能源政策碳排量一直在增加結果我們環境部減碳的目標又一直定的那麼高所以我們說這好像是背道而馳嘛\n360948\t376942\t包委員因為其實燃氣跟燃煤它的排蛋係數不一樣所以我們未來這幾年減碳其實很大一部分就是燃氣燃煤換成燃氣所以這個其實是有效果的那另外一個就是說燃氣它的污染也比燃煤少很多所以目前這個階段是對的\n378263\t402554\t那當然我知道委員一定說希望關於核能的部分不過核能也跟委員報告其實真的要做的話其實我自己在算的時候也有問過台電或等等他包含要修正法規還有核安檢查核廢料的處理其實那個都不是我環境部可以來主管來推動的事情它的變數是非常多的在這個地方也跟委員報告所以我相信部長對這些也了解我們現在發電我們現在發電\n406355\t430261\t結構最大的就是第一個就是燃氣嘛第二個就是燃煤再來就是再生能源然後再來核電跟燃油這個也是台電的數據那可是如果說以我們現在發電的方式你看那個燃煤發電最多燃氣發電最多可是你看它的碳排的係數它的碳排係數都是最高的\n431164\t460479\t所以針對這部分剛剛彭部長也有講所以我一直認為說以我們環境部這部分來講是不是核能發電其實應該還是要以環境部的立場應該是要考慮核電來納入對於我們減碳是不是比較有幫助包委員其實環境部唯一的主管就是說如果核電它的要除液還有或是說它的幹式儲存槽它需要環評這個是我們可以主管的\n460799\t488824\t那當然如果以減碳的話這個核能它的確是一個相對於低碳排的一個能源但是它也會有它的這個壓力存在所以這個部分呢還是要讓經濟部或是能源主管單位他們來送這個相關的規劃給我們但是以目前我那時候算我們淨零入境的情況下的確它是一個選項但是它後面的包含的未來未知的費用還有核廢料還有安全性等等其實有很多的變數在那個地方\n490097\t493299\t好那我請問一下我們經濟部今天有代表來喔好再麻煩一下那現在\n505854\t534265\t我們大家全球都在發展AI那麼也知道AI它的用電量劇增那針對這部分用電量劇增我們要因應我們AI的時代那可是如果我們要達到減碳要環境保育又要讓我們這用電劇增我們來應付這個用電的問題那我們經濟部這部分有沒有什麼方法來處理好 跟委員報告一下\n536869\t559050\t我先回答待會再請我們能源署的代表再做一個說明我想基本上我們對於這個AI的用電會增加部分我們已經有先事先規劃有一些發電量的這個部分是有配合除了這個以外供給面的部分是有在規劃那在那個減\n560772\t570741\t這個節電的部分我們也在推這個深度節能讓這個我們的用電量是不是可以相對的可以減少我們的這個用電那能源署這邊是在做一個補充\n571485\t591399\t那以我們現在這樣子的方式我們現在這樣子的能源政策我們有辦法應付AI這麼大的用電量嗎跟委員報告我們能源署每一年都會做電力供需的一個評估那AI的部分我們的產發署會跟業者做一個深切的瞭解半導體的產業我們也會把它估計去\n593141\t605777\t每一年大概在6月之前我們就會做一個供需報告所以AI的估計我們其實是有規劃進去的那整體的用電其實跟委員報告應該是沒有問題的 您放心\n607779\t633247\t所以基本上我們現在要應付AI的用電矩陣然後我們要達到我們環境部我們要減碳又要環境保育等等問題你看連AIT美國在台協會古立言處長他都有講我們台灣是高度仰賴外國進口能源那美國是最大的能源出口國那他也提供天然氣提供再生能源當然\n634767\t654068\t他現在好像也說他能夠提供最新的核能技術來支援我們那我們以這幾個前提之下我請問一下彭部長那如果這樣你的看法如何我們要兼顧要減碳要環境保育然後又要達到我們用電量\n654728\t679606\t達到AI這些的用電量矩陣那環境部的立場是怎麼樣報告委員環境部的立場就是更多這種低碳對環境好的能源我們都歡迎不過也跟委員報告我也關注美國新的核能的發展的動態例如說他們的新的SMR那個New Scale的核電廠他們已經追加預算到105億美金所以其實他只有發大概只有400多MW\n680146\t693778\t所以其實這個的費用是很難估計的如果未來國際上像美國他們有更好更新的已經有商業化運轉的我們當然會歡迎但是目前台灣我們還是只能靠自己去做一個轉型的工作\n695595\t722903\t那所以其實之前我們也做過以核氧綠的公投那有六成的民眾是支持那我們也現在看到其實我們整體燃煤燃氣再生能源其實它的發電量整體進度上我們看起來也是落後的所以其實這個新的核能技術如果能夠提供又達到我們之前公投以核氧綠的結果然後也可以讓我們減碳也可以\n723503\t741988\t讓我們的環境保育工作可以做得更好那這一部分我倒覺得是不是我們可以來考量一下這一部分而且新的核能政策整體來講人家現在來講目前核能也是最好的綠能那這一部分彭副長你也贊同嗎\n742828\t772088\t核能不是綠能核能是乾淨的能源可是目前來講它整體來講它碳排量應該是非常非常低但是其實也報告委員我對核能並沒有什麼任何立場我很務實在看但是現實就在眼前因為它在國際上新的核能發展的技術費用非常的高而且還不確定那另外一個是研議的成本也可能在這個裡面所以委員如果你們可以解決我當然這個是樂觀其成但是這個壓力會非常的大\n772868\t794638\t所以其實以目前來講我們姑且不談我們目前的能源政策不講政治上的問題目前看起來如果這整體新的能源政策目前看起來如果說要應付這AI的時代用電俱增要達到減碳要達到環保整體來講目前這新的核能技術核能來講其實是一個蠻好的選項\n796139\t812539\t包委員我們目前規劃2035的減碳目標是沒有把核能放進去的那當然未來如果有任何的改變或新技術當然是可以幫助但是我也特別提醒委員因為後面的成本還有引發性的這個社會上的這個不同的意見應該蠻大的也請委員都可以多考量\n813308\t835767\t好那我也希望我們大家可以來務實推動這個能源的轉型我們要應付我們的用電量要兼顧這減碳要兼顧環保我覺得這部分我們大家像我們經濟部環境部應該針對這部分我們可以好好的思維一下怎麼應付我們後面所要面臨用電量巨增要兼顧減碳環保的問題好謝謝謝謝圍恩謝謝好謝謝圖遠謝謝部長\n","txt":"好 謝謝 請我們彭部長還有請一下我們衛福部的副署長衛福部哪位副署長圖爾元朝\n好那我先請問一下我們衛福部請問一下我們目前我們十大癌症我們衛福部我問一下那個有關癌症的問題好那有關我們目前十大癌症我們蟬聯冠軍的是哪一個癌症委員你好我們這次是請國民健康署這邊來做相關的回答\n委員是對我們十大癌症目前我們我們全國十大癌症然後纏連冠軍的是哪個癌症那個肺 肺癌對啊喔是肺癌好對啦因為這個之前之前大腸癌嘛那現在這幾年都是肺癌已經纏連我們十大癌症的冠軍那\n其實我們根據我們目前一些科學數據的驗證肺癌也跟我們空氣品質有絕對的關係有直接的關係 對吧\n那所以我們可以知道像我們有一個基因專家基因醫師張嘉明他也做過一個科學的報告也就是說他針對他們研究PM2.5跟肺腺癌的增加有密不可分的關係這部分我們衛福部這邊應該有掌握這個訊息吧有有嗎那\n據我們這個報告有看到那我們針對肺癌的部分可是肺癌雖然跟我們抽菸也有直接的關係可是我們發現到有一個數據這裡面有三分之二的是完全沒有抽菸時的這部分\n有沒有掌握這個訊息委員針對肺癌的部分目前其實發生的原因就是抽菸然後跟空氣汙染還有這個紫葉的曝露另外就是家族史對啊所以空氣品質就是抽菸還有我們空氣品質有絕對的關係所以我們經過我們發現這肺癌裡面\n居然有三分之二的是完全沒有抽菸三分之一有抽菸死所以我們也可以從這個證明我們空氣品質對於我們肺癌有絕對直接的關係這一部分應該沒有問題吧它是其中的原因之一對嘛好那接下來我再問一下我們彭部長\n因為這部分只是請我們衛福部來證明因為現在這癌症就是我們十大癌症已經纏連冠軍而且絕對跟我們空氣品質有絕對關係已經經過專家學者有科學數據的顯示那空氣品質當然抽菸還有我們PM2.5等等都是影響的因素那肺癌\n肺癌患者裡面有三分之二是完全沒有抽菸所以我們也可以合理的推斷這三分之二就是因為我們空氣品質所造成的這部分部長應該同意吧同意不過委員這個空氣品質有室內跟室外例如說我們家裡面的很多的生活習慣大概佔了我們八成的時間都在室內所以室內跟室外不一樣但是我們有\n數據顯示嘛就是PM2.5跟肺腺癌有密不可分的關係所以這部分也讓我們希望我們環境部是我們環境最高的主管機關我們衛福部可以先請下去了\n那所以我們今天也是討論減碳的部分所以也凸顯了我們減碳是勢在必行因為這跟我們國人健康有絕對直接的關係那我們在今年初一月二十三號我們賴總統有召開第三次氣候變遷委員會的會議我記得我在去年的時候\n那時候我們彭部長在8月23號也曾經講過在2032年我們檢探目標要往40%邁進這部分我記得彭部長你有說過吧就是我個人希望說未來2032年的時候我可以到那樣的目標但是我們後來召集各個部會得到這樣新的數字所以本來彭部長是希望能夠達到40%那後來\n跟我們部會氣候變遷委員會討論之後後來新的目標是降低的嗎對就是說這個其實是因為當時我的理想我希望2032可以到40那我記得那時候李遠哲李院長他也希望說50所以我們後來但是我必須跟委員報告那個其實是我們會籍的環境部會籍的各個部會提出的減碳計畫最後得出這樣的數字\n所以我記得我上次會期也有跟彭部長討論過因為我們現在的能源政策再加上我們彭部長的減碳目標我們覺得這個是背道而馳的因為我們現在\n所發電的幾乎它的碳排量都是非常高那我們的能源政策碳排量都非常高那我們現在能源政策碳排量一直在增加結果我們環境部減碳的目標又一直定的那麼高所以我們說這好像是背道而馳嘛\n包委員因為其實燃氣跟燃煤它的排蛋係數不一樣所以我們未來這幾年減碳其實很大一部分就是燃氣燃煤換成燃氣所以這個其實是有效果的那另外一個就是說燃氣它的污染也比燃煤少很多所以目前這個階段是對的\n那當然我知道委員一定說希望關於核能的部分不過核能也跟委員報告其實真的要做的話其實我自己在算的時候也有問過台電或等等他包含要修正法規還有核安檢查核廢料的處理其實那個都不是我環境部可以來主管來推動的事情它的變數是非常多的在這個地方也跟委員報告所以我相信部長對這些也了解我們現在發電我們現在發電\n結構最大的就是第一個就是燃氣嘛第二個就是燃煤再來就是再生能源然後再來核電跟燃油這個也是台電的數據那可是如果說以我們現在發電的方式你看那個燃煤發電最多燃氣發電最多可是你看它的碳排的係數它的碳排係數都是最高的\n所以針對這部分剛剛彭部長也有講所以我一直認為說以我們環境部這部分來講是不是核能發電其實應該還是要以環境部的立場應該是要考慮核電來納入對於我們減碳是不是比較有幫助包委員其實環境部唯一的主管就是說如果核電它的要除液還有或是說它的幹式儲存槽它需要環評這個是我們可以主管的\n那當然如果以減碳的話這個核能它的確是一個相對於低碳排的一個能源但是它也會有它的這個壓力存在所以這個部分呢還是要讓經濟部或是能源主管單位他們來送這個相關的規劃給我們但是以目前我那時候算我們淨零入境的情況下的確它是一個選項但是它後面的包含的未來未知的費用還有核廢料還有安全性等等其實有很多的變數在那個地方\n好那我請問一下我們經濟部今天有代表來喔好再麻煩一下那現在\n我們大家全球都在發展AI那麼也知道AI它的用電量劇增那針對這部分用電量劇增我們要因應我們AI的時代那可是如果我們要達到減碳要環境保育又要讓我們這用電劇增我們來應付這個用電的問題那我們經濟部這部分有沒有什麼方法來處理好 跟委員報告一下\n我先回答待會再請我們能源署的代表再做一個說明我想基本上我們對於這個AI的用電會增加部分我們已經有先事先規劃有一些發電量的這個部分是有配合除了這個以外供給面的部分是有在規劃那在那個減\n這個節電的部分我們也在推這個深度節能讓這個我們的用電量是不是可以相對的可以減少我們的這個用電那能源署這邊是在做一個補充\n那以我們現在這樣子的方式我們現在這樣子的能源政策我們有辦法應付AI這麼大的用電量嗎跟委員報告我們能源署每一年都會做電力供需的一個評估那AI的部分我們的產發署會跟業者做一個深切的瞭解半導體的產業我們也會把它估計去\n每一年大概在6月之前我們就會做一個供需報告所以AI的估計我們其實是有規劃進去的那整體的用電其實跟委員報告應該是沒有問題的 您放心\n所以基本上我們現在要應付AI的用電矩陣然後我們要達到我們環境部我們要減碳又要環境保育等等問題你看連AIT美國在台協會古立言處長他都有講我們台灣是高度仰賴外國進口能源那美國是最大的能源出口國那他也提供天然氣提供再生能源當然\n他現在好像也說他能夠提供最新的核能技術來支援我們那我們以這幾個前提之下我請問一下彭部長那如果這樣你的看法如何我們要兼顧要減碳要環境保育然後又要達到我們用電量\n達到AI這些的用電量矩陣那環境部的立場是怎麼樣報告委員環境部的立場就是更多這種低碳對環境好的能源我們都歡迎不過也跟委員報告我也關注美國新的核能的發展的動態例如說他們的新的SMR那個New Scale的核電廠他們已經追加預算到105億美金所以其實他只有發大概只有400多MW\n所以其實這個的費用是很難估計的如果未來國際上像美國他們有更好更新的已經有商業化運轉的我們當然會歡迎但是目前台灣我們還是只能靠自己去做一個轉型的工作\n那所以其實之前我們也做過以核氧綠的公投那有六成的民眾是支持那我們也現在看到其實我們整體燃煤燃氣再生能源其實它的發電量整體進度上我們看起來也是落後的所以其實這個新的核能技術如果能夠提供又達到我們之前公投以核氧綠的結果然後也可以讓我們減碳也可以\n讓我們的環境保育工作可以做得更好那這一部分我倒覺得是不是我們可以來考量一下這一部分而且新的核能政策整體來講人家現在來講目前核能也是最好的綠能那這一部分彭副長你也贊同嗎\n核能不是綠能核能是乾淨的能源可是目前來講它整體來講它碳排量應該是非常非常低但是其實也報告委員我對核能並沒有什麼任何立場我很務實在看但是現實就在眼前因為它在國際上新的核能發展的技術費用非常的高而且還不確定那另外一個是研議的成本也可能在這個裡面所以委員如果你們可以解決我當然這個是樂觀其成但是這個壓力會非常的大\n所以其實以目前來講我們姑且不談我們目前的能源政策不講政治上的問題目前看起來如果這整體新的能源政策目前看起來如果說要應付這AI的時代用電俱增要達到減碳要達到環保整體來講目前這新的核能技術核能來講其實是一個蠻好的選項\n包委員我們目前規劃2035的減碳目標是沒有把核能放進去的那當然未來如果有任何的改變或新技術當然是可以幫助但是我也特別提醒委員因為後面的成本還有引發性的這個社會上的這個不同的意見應該蠻大的也請委員都可以多考量\n好那我也希望我們大家可以來務實推動這個能源的轉型我們要應付我們的用電量要兼顧這減碳要兼顧環保我覺得這部分我們大家像我們經濟部環境部應該針對這部分我們可以好好的思維一下怎麼應付我們後面所要面臨用電量巨增要兼顧減碳環保的問題好謝謝謝謝圍恩謝謝好謝謝圖遠謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:13.220 --> 00:23.909\n好謝謝請我們彭部長還有請一下我們衛福部的副署長衛福部哪位副署長圖爾元朝\n\n00:26.598 --> 00:54.227\n好那我先請問一下我們衛福部請問一下我們目前我們十大癌症我們衛福部我問一下那個有關癌症的問題好那有關我們目前十大癌症我們蟬聯冠軍的是哪一個癌症委員你好我們這次是請國民健康署這邊來做相關的回答\n\n01:02.687 --> 01:10.312\n委員是對我們十大癌症目前我們我們全國十大癌症然後纏連冠軍的是哪個癌症那個肺肺癌對啊喔是肺癌好對啦因為這個之前之前大腸癌嘛那現在這幾年都是肺癌已經纏連我們十大癌症的冠軍那\n\n01:29.642 --> 01:37.458\n其實我們根據我們目前一些科學數據的驗證肺癌也跟我們空氣品質有絕對的關係有直接的關係對吧\n\n01:40.728 --> 01:59.663\n那所以我們可以知道像我們有一個基因專家基因醫師張嘉明他也做過一個科學的報告也就是說他針對他們研究PM2.5跟肺腺癌的增加有密不可分的關係這部分我們衛福部這邊應該有掌握這個訊息吧有有嗎那\n\n02:07.498 --> 02:22.823\n據我們這個報告有看到那我們針對肺癌的部分可是肺癌雖然跟我們抽菸也有直接的關係可是我們發現到有一個數據這裡面有三分之二的是完全沒有抽菸時的這部分\n\n02:24.605 --> 02:42.094\n有沒有掌握這個訊息委員針對肺癌的部分目前其實發生的原因就是抽菸然後跟空氣汙染還有這個紫葉的曝露另外就是家族史對啊所以空氣品質就是抽菸還有我們空氣品質有絕對的關係所以我們經過我們發現這肺癌裡面\n\n02:48.658 --> 03:07.651\n居然有三分之二的是完全沒有抽菸三分之一有抽菸死所以我們也可以從這個證明我們空氣品質對於我們肺癌有絕對直接的關係這一部分應該沒有問題吧它是其中的原因之一對嘛好那接下來我再問一下我們彭部長\n\n03:09.563 --> 03:32.703\n因為這部分只是請我們衛福部來證明因為現在這癌症就是我們十大癌症已經纏連冠軍而且絕對跟我們空氣品質有絕對關係已經經過專家學者有科學數據的顯示那空氣品質當然抽菸還有我們PM2.5等等都是影響的因素那肺癌\n\n03:33.303 --> 03:58.181\n肺癌患者裡面有三分之二是完全沒有抽菸所以我們也可以合理的推斷這三分之二就是因為我們空氣品質所造成的這部分部長應該同意吧同意不過委員這個空氣品質有室內跟室外例如說我們家裡面的很多的生活習慣大概佔了我們八成的時間都在室內所以室內跟室外不一樣但是我們有\n\n03:59.702 --> 04:13.027\n數據顯示嘛就是PM2.5跟肺腺癌有密不可分的關係所以這部分也讓我們希望我們環境部是我們環境最高的主管機關我們衛福部可以先請下去了\n\n04:14.875 --> 04:35.231\n那所以我們今天也是討論減碳的部分所以也凸顯了我們減碳是勢在必行因為這跟我們國人健康有絕對直接的關係那我們在今年初一月二十三號我們賴總統有召開第三次氣候變遷委員會的會議我記得我在去年的時候\n\n04:35.911 --> 04:59.558\n那時候我們彭部長在8月23號也曾經講過在2032年我們檢探目標要往40%邁進這部分我記得彭部長你有說過吧就是我個人希望說未來2032年的時候我可以到那樣的目標但是我們後來召集各個部會得到這樣新的數字所以本來彭部長是希望能夠達到40%那後來\n\n05:02.299 --> 05:24.161\n跟我們部會氣候變遷委員會討論之後後來新的目標是降低的嗎對就是說這個其實是因為當時我的理想我希望2032可以到40那我記得那時候李遠哲李院長他也希望說50所以我們後來但是我必須跟委員報告那個其實是我們會籍的環境部會籍的各個部會提出的減碳計畫最後得出這樣的數字\n\n05:27.103 --> 05:39.728\n所以我記得我上次會期也有跟彭部長討論過因為我們現在的能源政策再加上我們彭部長的減碳目標我們覺得這個是背道而馳的因為我們現在\n\n05:42.229 --> 05:59.801\n所發電的幾乎它的碳排量都是非常高那我們的能源政策碳排量都非常高那我們現在能源政策碳排量一直在增加結果我們環境部減碳的目標又一直定的那麼高所以我們說這好像是背道而馳嘛\n\n06:00.948 --> 06:16.942\n包委員因為其實燃氣跟燃煤它的排蛋係數不一樣所以我們未來這幾年減碳其實很大一部分就是燃氣燃煤換成燃氣所以這個其實是有效果的那另外一個就是說燃氣它的污染也比燃煤少很多所以目前這個階段是對的\n\n06:18.263 --> 06:42.554\n那當然我知道委員一定說希望關於核能的部分不過核能也跟委員報告其實真的要做的話其實我自己在算的時候也有問過台電或等等他包含要修正法規還有核安檢查核廢料的處理其實那個都不是我環境部可以來主管來推動的事情它的變數是非常多的在這個地方也跟委員報告所以我相信部長對這些也了解我們現在發電我們現在發電\n\n06:46.355 --> 07:10.261\n結構最大的就是第一個就是燃氣嘛第二個就是燃煤再來就是再生能源然後再來核電跟燃油這個也是台電的數據那可是如果說以我們現在發電的方式你看那個燃煤發電最多燃氣發電最多可是你看它的碳排的係數它的碳排係數都是最高的\n\n07:11.164 --> 07:40.479\n所以針對這部分剛剛彭部長也有講所以我一直認為說以我們環境部這部分來講是不是核能發電其實應該還是要以環境部的立場應該是要考慮核電來納入對於我們減碳是不是比較有幫助包委員其實環境部唯一的主管就是說如果核電它的要除液還有或是說它的幹式儲存槽它需要環評這個是我們可以主管的\n\n07:40.799 --> 08:08.824\n那當然如果以減碳的話這個核能它的確是一個相對於低碳排的一個能源但是它也會有它的這個壓力存在所以這個部分呢還是要讓經濟部或是能源主管單位他們來送這個相關的規劃給我們但是以目前我那時候算我們淨零入境的情況下的確它是一個選項但是它後面的包含的未來未知的費用還有核廢料還有安全性等等其實有很多的變數在那個地方\n\n08:10.097 --> 08:13.299\n好那我請問一下我們經濟部今天有代表來喔好再麻煩一下那現在\n\n08:25.854 --> 08:54.265\n我們大家全球都在發展AI那麼也知道AI它的用電量劇增那針對這部分用電量劇增我們要因應我們AI的時代那可是如果我們要達到減碳要環境保育又要讓我們這用電劇增我們來應付這個用電的問題那我們經濟部這部分有沒有什麼方法來處理好跟委員報告一下\n\n08:56.869 --> 09:19.050\n我先回答待會再請我們能源署的代表再做一個說明我想基本上我們對於這個AI的用電會增加部分我們已經有先事先規劃有一些發電量的這個部分是有配合除了這個以外供給面的部分是有在規劃那在那個減\n\n09:20.772 --> 09:30.741\n這個節電的部分我們也在推這個深度節能讓這個我們的用電量是不是可以相對的可以減少我們的這個用電那能源署這邊是在做一個補充\n\n09:31.485 --> 09:51.399\n那以我們現在這樣子的方式我們現在這樣子的能源政策我們有辦法應付AI這麼大的用電量嗎跟委員報告我們能源署每一年都會做電力供需的一個評估那AI的部分我們的產發署會跟業者做一個深切的瞭解半導體的產業我們也會把它估計去\n\n09:53.141 --> 10:05.777\n每一年大概在6月之前我們就會做一個供需報告所以AI的估計我們其實是有規劃進去的那整體的用電其實跟委員報告應該是沒有問題的您放心\n\n10:07.779 --> 10:33.247\n所以基本上我們現在要應付AI的用電矩陣然後我們要達到我們環境部我們要減碳又要環境保育等等問題你看連AIT美國在台協會古立言處長他都有講我們台灣是高度仰賴外國進口能源那美國是最大的能源出口國那他也提供天然氣提供再生能源當然\n\n10:34.767 --> 10:54.068\n他現在好像也說他能夠提供最新的核能技術來支援我們那我們以這幾個前提之下我請問一下彭部長那如果這樣你的看法如何我們要兼顧要減碳要環境保育然後又要達到我們用電量\n\n10:54.728 --> 11:19.606\n達到AI這些的用電量矩陣那環境部的立場是怎麼樣報告委員環境部的立場就是更多這種低碳對環境好的能源我們都歡迎不過也跟委員報告我也關注美國新的核能的發展的動態例如說他們的新的SMR那個NewScale的核電廠他們已經追加預算到105億美金所以其實他只有發大概只有400多MW\n\n11:20.146 --> 11:33.778\n所以其實這個的費用是很難估計的如果未來國際上像美國他們有更好更新的已經有商業化運轉的我們當然會歡迎但是目前台灣我們還是只能靠自己去做一個轉型的工作\n\n11:35.595 --> 12:02.903\n那所以其實之前我們也做過以核氧綠的公投那有六成的民眾是支持那我們也現在看到其實我們整體燃煤燃氣再生能源其實它的發電量整體進度上我們看起來也是落後的所以其實這個新的核能技術如果能夠提供又達到我們之前公投以核氧綠的結果然後也可以讓我們減碳也可以\n\n12:03.503 --> 12:21.988\n讓我們的環境保育工作可以做得更好那這一部分我倒覺得是不是我們可以來考量一下這一部分而且新的核能政策整體來講人家現在來講目前核能也是最好的綠能那這一部分彭副長你也贊同嗎\n\n12:22.828 --> 12:52.088\n核能不是綠能核能是乾淨的能源可是目前來講它整體來講它碳排量應該是非常非常低但是其實也報告委員我對核能並沒有什麼任何立場我很務實在看但是現實就在眼前因為它在國際上新的核能發展的技術費用非常的高而且還不確定那另外一個是研議的成本也可能在這個裡面所以委員如果你們可以解決我當然這個是樂觀其成但是這個壓力會非常的大\n\n12:52.868 --> 13:14.638\n所以其實以目前來講我們姑且不談我們目前的能源政策不講政治上的問題目前看起來如果這整體新的能源政策目前看起來如果說要應付這AI的時代用電俱增要達到減碳要達到環保整體來講目前這新的核能技術核能來講其實是一個蠻好的選項\n\n13:16.139 --> 13:32.539\n包委員我們目前規劃2035的減碳目標是沒有把核能放進去的那當然未來如果有任何的改變或新技術當然是可以幫助但是我也特別提醒委員因為後面的成本還有引發性的這個社會上的這個不同的意見應該蠻大的也請委員都可以多考量\n\n13:33.308 --> 13:55.767\n好那我也希望我們大家可以來務實推動這個能源的轉型我們要應付我們的用電量要兼顧這減碳要兼顧環保我覺得這部分我們大家像我們經濟部環境部應該針對這部分我們可以好好的思維一下怎麼應付我們後面所要面臨用電量巨增要兼顧減碳環保的問題好謝謝謝謝圍恩謝謝好謝謝圖遠謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":13.22,"end":23.909,"text":"好 謝謝 請我們彭部長還有請一下我們衛福部的副署長衛福部哪位副署長圖爾元朝"},{"start":26.598,"end":54.227,"text":"好那我先請問一下我們衛福部請問一下我們目前我們十大癌症我們衛福部我問一下那個有關癌症的問題好那有關我們目前十大癌症我們蟬聯冠軍的是哪一個癌症委員你好我們這次是請國民健康署這邊來做相關的回答"},{"start":62.687,"end":70.312,"text":"委員是對我們十大癌症目前我們我們全國十大癌症然後纏連冠軍的是哪個癌症那個肺 肺癌對啊喔是肺癌好對啦因為這個之前之前大腸癌嘛那現在這幾年都是肺癌已經纏連我們十大癌症的冠軍那"},{"start":89.642,"end":97.458,"text":"其實我們根據我們目前一些科學數據的驗證肺癌也跟我們空氣品質有絕對的關係有直接的關係 對吧"},{"start":100.728,"end":119.663,"text":"那所以我們可以知道像我們有一個基因專家基因醫師張嘉明他也做過一個科學的報告也就是說他針對他們研究PM2.5跟肺腺癌的增加有密不可分的關係這部分我們衛福部這邊應該有掌握這個訊息吧有有嗎那"},{"start":127.498,"end":142.823,"text":"據我們這個報告有看到那我們針對肺癌的部分可是肺癌雖然跟我們抽菸也有直接的關係可是我們發現到有一個數據這裡面有三分之二的是完全沒有抽菸時的這部分"},{"start":144.605,"end":162.094,"text":"有沒有掌握這個訊息委員針對肺癌的部分目前其實發生的原因就是抽菸然後跟空氣汙染還有這個紫葉的曝露另外就是家族史對啊所以空氣品質就是抽菸還有我們空氣品質有絕對的關係所以我們經過我們發現這肺癌裡面"},{"start":168.658,"end":187.651,"text":"居然有三分之二的是完全沒有抽菸三分之一有抽菸死所以我們也可以從這個證明我們空氣品質對於我們肺癌有絕對直接的關係這一部分應該沒有問題吧它是其中的原因之一對嘛好那接下來我再問一下我們彭部長"},{"start":189.563,"end":212.703,"text":"因為這部分只是請我們衛福部來證明因為現在這癌症就是我們十大癌症已經纏連冠軍而且絕對跟我們空氣品質有絕對關係已經經過專家學者有科學數據的顯示那空氣品質當然抽菸還有我們PM2.5等等都是影響的因素那肺癌"},{"start":213.303,"end":238.181,"text":"肺癌患者裡面有三分之二是完全沒有抽菸所以我們也可以合理的推斷這三分之二就是因為我們空氣品質所造成的這部分部長應該同意吧同意不過委員這個空氣品質有室內跟室外例如說我們家裡面的很多的生活習慣大概佔了我們八成的時間都在室內所以室內跟室外不一樣但是我們有"},{"start":239.702,"end":253.027,"text":"數據顯示嘛就是PM2.5跟肺腺癌有密不可分的關係所以這部分也讓我們希望我們環境部是我們環境最高的主管機關我們衛福部可以先請下去了"},{"start":254.875,"end":275.231,"text":"那所以我們今天也是討論減碳的部分所以也凸顯了我們減碳是勢在必行因為這跟我們國人健康有絕對直接的關係那我們在今年初一月二十三號我們賴總統有召開第三次氣候變遷委員會的會議我記得我在去年的時候"},{"start":275.911,"end":299.558,"text":"那時候我們彭部長在8月23號也曾經講過在2032年我們檢探目標要往40%邁進這部分我記得彭部長你有說過吧就是我個人希望說未來2032年的時候我可以到那樣的目標但是我們後來召集各個部會得到這樣新的數字所以本來彭部長是希望能夠達到40%那後來"},{"start":302.299,"end":324.161,"text":"跟我們部會氣候變遷委員會討論之後後來新的目標是降低的嗎對就是說這個其實是因為當時我的理想我希望2032可以到40那我記得那時候李遠哲李院長他也希望說50所以我們後來但是我必須跟委員報告那個其實是我們會籍的環境部會籍的各個部會提出的減碳計畫最後得出這樣的數字"},{"start":327.103,"end":339.728,"text":"所以我記得我上次會期也有跟彭部長討論過因為我們現在的能源政策再加上我們彭部長的減碳目標我們覺得這個是背道而馳的因為我們現在"},{"start":342.229,"end":359.801,"text":"所發電的幾乎它的碳排量都是非常高那我們的能源政策碳排量都非常高那我們現在能源政策碳排量一直在增加結果我們環境部減碳的目標又一直定的那麼高所以我們說這好像是背道而馳嘛"},{"start":360.948,"end":376.942,"text":"包委員因為其實燃氣跟燃煤它的排蛋係數不一樣所以我們未來這幾年減碳其實很大一部分就是燃氣燃煤換成燃氣所以這個其實是有效果的那另外一個就是說燃氣它的污染也比燃煤少很多所以目前這個階段是對的"},{"start":378.263,"end":402.554,"text":"那當然我知道委員一定說希望關於核能的部分不過核能也跟委員報告其實真的要做的話其實我自己在算的時候也有問過台電或等等他包含要修正法規還有核安檢查核廢料的處理其實那個都不是我環境部可以來主管來推動的事情它的變數是非常多的在這個地方也跟委員報告所以我相信部長對這些也了解我們現在發電我們現在發電"},{"start":406.355,"end":430.261,"text":"結構最大的就是第一個就是燃氣嘛第二個就是燃煤再來就是再生能源然後再來核電跟燃油這個也是台電的數據那可是如果說以我們現在發電的方式你看那個燃煤發電最多燃氣發電最多可是你看它的碳排的係數它的碳排係數都是最高的"},{"start":431.164,"end":460.479,"text":"所以針對這部分剛剛彭部長也有講所以我一直認為說以我們環境部這部分來講是不是核能發電其實應該還是要以環境部的立場應該是要考慮核電來納入對於我們減碳是不是比較有幫助包委員其實環境部唯一的主管就是說如果核電它的要除液還有或是說它的幹式儲存槽它需要環評這個是我們可以主管的"},{"start":460.799,"end":488.824,"text":"那當然如果以減碳的話這個核能它的確是一個相對於低碳排的一個能源但是它也會有它的這個壓力存在所以這個部分呢還是要讓經濟部或是能源主管單位他們來送這個相關的規劃給我們但是以目前我那時候算我們淨零入境的情況下的確它是一個選項但是它後面的包含的未來未知的費用還有核廢料還有安全性等等其實有很多的變數在那個地方"},{"start":490.097,"end":493.299,"text":"好那我請問一下我們經濟部今天有代表來喔好再麻煩一下那現在"},{"start":505.854,"end":534.265,"text":"我們大家全球都在發展AI那麼也知道AI它的用電量劇增那針對這部分用電量劇增我們要因應我們AI的時代那可是如果我們要達到減碳要環境保育又要讓我們這用電劇增我們來應付這個用電的問題那我們經濟部這部分有沒有什麼方法來處理好 跟委員報告一下"},{"start":536.869,"end":559.05,"text":"我先回答待會再請我們能源署的代表再做一個說明我想基本上我們對於這個AI的用電會增加部分我們已經有先事先規劃有一些發電量的這個部分是有配合除了這個以外供給面的部分是有在規劃那在那個減"},{"start":560.772,"end":570.741,"text":"這個節電的部分我們也在推這個深度節能讓這個我們的用電量是不是可以相對的可以減少我們的這個用電那能源署這邊是在做一個補充"},{"start":571.485,"end":591.399,"text":"那以我們現在這樣子的方式我們現在這樣子的能源政策我們有辦法應付AI這麼大的用電量嗎跟委員報告我們能源署每一年都會做電力供需的一個評估那AI的部分我們的產發署會跟業者做一個深切的瞭解半導體的產業我們也會把它估計去"},{"start":593.141,"end":605.777,"text":"每一年大概在6月之前我們就會做一個供需報告所以AI的估計我們其實是有規劃進去的那整體的用電其實跟委員報告應該是沒有問題的 您放心"},{"start":607.779,"end":633.247,"text":"所以基本上我們現在要應付AI的用電矩陣然後我們要達到我們環境部我們要減碳又要環境保育等等問題你看連AIT美國在台協會古立言處長他都有講我們台灣是高度仰賴外國進口能源那美國是最大的能源出口國那他也提供天然氣提供再生能源當然"},{"start":634.767,"end":654.068,"text":"他現在好像也說他能夠提供最新的核能技術來支援我們那我們以這幾個前提之下我請問一下彭部長那如果這樣你的看法如何我們要兼顧要減碳要環境保育然後又要達到我們用電量"},{"start":654.728,"end":679.606,"text":"達到AI這些的用電量矩陣那環境部的立場是怎麼樣報告委員環境部的立場就是更多這種低碳對環境好的能源我們都歡迎不過也跟委員報告我也關注美國新的核能的發展的動態例如說他們的新的SMR那個New Scale的核電廠他們已經追加預算到105億美金所以其實他只有發大概只有400多MW"},{"start":680.146,"end":693.778,"text":"所以其實這個的費用是很難估計的如果未來國際上像美國他們有更好更新的已經有商業化運轉的我們當然會歡迎但是目前台灣我們還是只能靠自己去做一個轉型的工作"},{"start":695.595,"end":722.903,"text":"那所以其實之前我們也做過以核氧綠的公投那有六成的民眾是支持那我們也現在看到其實我們整體燃煤燃氣再生能源其實它的發電量整體進度上我們看起來也是落後的所以其實這個新的核能技術如果能夠提供又達到我們之前公投以核氧綠的結果然後也可以讓我們減碳也可以"},{"start":723.503,"end":741.988,"text":"讓我們的環境保育工作可以做得更好那這一部分我倒覺得是不是我們可以來考量一下這一部分而且新的核能政策整體來講人家現在來講目前核能也是最好的綠能那這一部分彭副長你也贊同嗎"},{"start":742.828,"end":772.088,"text":"核能不是綠能核能是乾淨的能源可是目前來講它整體來講它碳排量應該是非常非常低但是其實也報告委員我對核能並沒有什麼任何立場我很務實在看但是現實就在眼前因為它在國際上新的核能發展的技術費用非常的高而且還不確定那另外一個是研議的成本也可能在這個裡面所以委員如果你們可以解決我當然這個是樂觀其成但是這個壓力會非常的大"},{"start":772.868,"end":794.638,"text":"所以其實以目前來講我們姑且不談我們目前的能源政策不講政治上的問題目前看起來如果這整體新的能源政策目前看起來如果說要應付這AI的時代用電俱增要達到減碳要達到環保整體來講目前這新的核能技術核能來講其實是一個蠻好的選項"},{"start":796.139,"end":812.539,"text":"包委員我們目前規劃2035的減碳目標是沒有把核能放進去的那當然未來如果有任何的改變或新技術當然是可以幫助但是我也特別提醒委員因為後面的成本還有引發性的這個社會上的這個不同的意見應該蠻大的也請委員都可以多考量"},{"start":813.308,"end":835.767,"text":"好那我也希望我們大家可以來務實推動這個能源的轉型我們要應付我們的用電量要兼顧這減碳要兼顧環保我覺得這部分我們大家像我們經濟部環境部應該針對這部分我們可以好好的思維一下怎麼應付我們後面所要面臨用電量巨增要兼顧減碳環保的問題好謝謝謝謝圍恩謝謝好謝謝圖遠謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":682,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（10時51分）謝謝，請我們彭部長，還有請一下我們衛福部的副署長。"],["主席：來，請部長。衛福部哪一位副署長？簡任技正喔。"],["彭部長啓明：涂委員早。"],["涂委員權吉：好。我先請問一下衛福部有關癌症的問題，目前國人十大癌症當中，蟬聯冠軍的是哪一個癌症？"],["卓簡任技正琍萍：委員您好，這個問題是不是請國民健康署這邊來做相關的回答？"],["涂委員權吉：好。"],["歐科長良榮：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：目前全國十大癌症當中，蟬聯冠軍的是哪一個癌症？"],["歐科長良榮：肺癌。"],["涂委員權吉：對啦。因為之前的冠軍都是大腸癌，最近這幾年都是肺癌，已經蟬聯我們十大癌症的冠軍。其實根據目前一些科學數據的驗證，肺癌也跟我們的空氣品質有絕對的關係嘛，有直接的關係，對吧？所以我們可以知道，像我們有一個基因專家、基因醫師張家銘所做的科學研究報告指出，PM2.5跟肺腺癌的增加有密不可分的關係，這部分我們衛福部這邊應該也有掌握這個訊息吧？"],["歐科長良榮：有。"],["涂委員權吉：有嘛？"],["歐科長良榮：是。"],["涂委員權吉：根據我們看到的研究報告，針對肺癌的部分，肺癌雖然跟抽菸有直接的關係，可是我們也發現到一個數據，就是肺癌的確診個案中有三分之二是完全沒有抽菸史的，衛福部有沒有掌握這個訊息？"],["歐科長良榮：是，報告委員，針對肺癌的部分，目前肺癌發生的原因除了抽菸之外，還有空氣污染、職業的暴露，另外就是家族史。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊，所以除了抽菸，還有我們的空氣品質也有絕對的關係。我們發現，肺癌確診個案裡面居然有三分之二的是完全沒有抽菸，三分之一有抽菸史，所以也可由此證明，空氣品質跟肺癌有絕對直接的關係，這一部分應該沒有問題吧？"],["歐科長良榮：它是其中的原因之一。"],["涂委員權吉：對嘛！好，接下來我再問一下彭部長，我剛剛問的這個只是請衛福部來證明，因為現在肺癌已經蟬聯我們十大癌症之首，而且肺癌跟空氣品質有絕對的關係，已經過專家學者檢視過科學數據。當然抽菸，還有PM2.5等等，都是影響空氣品質的因素，肺癌患者裡面有三分之二完全沒有抽菸，所以我們也可以合理的推斷，這三分之二的肺癌患者，就是因為我們的空氣品質所造成的，這個推論部長應該同意吧？"],["彭部長啓明：同意，不過，委員，空氣品質有分為室內跟室外，例如說我們家裡面的很多生活習慣，大概占了我們八成的時間都在室內，所以室內跟室外不一樣。"],["涂委員權吉：對，但是我們也有數據顯示，PM2.5跟肺腺癌有密不可分的關係喔。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["涂委員權吉：衛福部官員可以先請回座。環境部是主管環境的最高主管機關，我們今天也是討論減碳的部分，所以這一部分也凸顯了減碳是勢在必行，因為這個跟我們國人的健康有絕對直接的關係。在今年初1月23號，我們賴總統有召開第三次氣候變遷委員會會議，我記得在去年的時候，那時候我們彭部長在8月23號也曾經講過，在2032年，我們的減碳目標要往40%邁進，這一部分我記得彭部長你有說過吧？"],["彭部長啓明：這是我個人希望，未來2032年的時候，我可以到那樣的目標，但是我們後來召集各個部會得到新的數字。"],["涂委員權吉：所以本來彭部長希望能夠達到40%，後來跟我們氣候變遷委員會討論之後，後來新的目標是降低的嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對，因為其實這是當時我的理想，我希望2032年可以到40，我記得那時候李遠哲院長，他也希望能到50，所以我們後來，但是我必須跟委員報告，那個其實是我們環境部匯集了各個部會提出的減碳計畫，最後得出這樣我們可以做到的數字。"],["涂委員權吉：好。所以我記得我上個會期也有跟彭部長討論過，就我們現在的能源政策，再對比彭部長的減碳目標，我覺得兩者是背道而馳的嘛。因為我們現在用來發電的能源，幾乎它的碳排量都非常高，我們使用的能源碳排量都非常高，我們現在的能源政策導致碳排量一直在增加，結果我們環境部減碳的目標又一直訂得那麼高，所以我們說這好像是背道而馳嘛。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實燃氣跟燃煤的排碳係數是不一樣的，所以我們未來幾年的減碳，很大一部分就是燃煤換成燃氣，這個轉換其實是有效果的。另外一個就是，燃氣的污染也比燃煤少很多，所以目前這個階段是對的。當然我知道委員一定說希望關於核能的部分，不過也跟委員報告，其實核能真的要做的話，我自己在算的時候也有問過台電，它包含要修正法規，還有核安檢查、核廢料的處理等等，那個都不是我環境部可以來主管、來推動的事情，它的變數是非常多的，在此也跟委員報告。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我相信部長對這些也了解，我們現在發電結構占比最大的，第一個就是燃氣，第二個就是燃煤，再來就是再生能源，然後再來是核電跟燃油，這是台電的數據。可是如果以我們現在發電的方式，你看燃煤、燃氣發電最多，可是你看它的碳排係數，它的碳排係數都是最高的。所以針對這一部分，剛剛彭部長也有講，我一直認為以我們環境部這一部分來講，以環境部的立場，應該是要考慮將核電納入，對於我們減碳是不是比較有幫助？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實環境部唯一主管的就是，如果核電要除役，還有或是它的乾式貯存槽需要環評，這是我們主管的。當然如果以減碳的角度，核能的確是一個碳排相對較低的能源，但是它也會有它的壓力存在，所以這個部分還是要讓經濟部，或是能源主管單位他們來送相關的規劃給我們。但是以我那時候算我們淨零路徑的情況下，的確它是一個選項，但是它後面的，包含未來未知的費用，還有核廢料，還有安全性等等，其實有很多的變數存在。"],["涂委員權吉：好，請問一下，經濟部今天有代表來嗎？好，再麻煩一下。現在全球都在發展AI，我們也知道，AI它的用電量遽增，針對用電量劇增這個部分，我們要因應我們的AI時代，可是我們要達到減碳，又要環境保育，為了讓我們應付這個用電劇增的問題，經濟部有沒有什麼方法來處理？"],["劉副司長起孝：跟委員報告一下，我先回答，待會再請我們能源署的代表做一個說明。基本上，對於AI用電會增加的部分，我們已經有事先規劃，發電量的這個部分是有配合，除了這個以外，供給面的部分是有在規劃，在節電的部分，我們也在推深度節能，讓我們的用電量相對的可以減少。能源署再做一個補充。"],["涂委員權吉：以我們現在這樣子的能源政策，我們有辦法應付AI這麼大的用電量嗎？"],["夏代理組長峪泉：跟委員報告，我們能源署每一年都會做電力供需的一個評估，AI的部分，我們的產發署會跟業者做一個深切的了解，半導體的產業，我們也會估進去，每一年大概在6月之前我們就會做一個供需報告，所以AI的估計我們其實是有規劃進去的，整體的用電，跟委員報告，應該是沒有問題的，您放心。"],["涂委員權吉：基本上，我們現在要應付AI的用電劇增，環境部又要達到減碳，又要環境保育等等，你看連AIT（美國在台協會）谷立言處長都有講，我們臺灣是高度仰賴外國進口能源，而美國是最大的能源出口國，他也提供天然氣、提供再生能源。當然他現在好像也說能夠提供最新的核能技術來支援我們。以這幾個前提之下，我請問一下彭部長，如果這樣，你的看法如何？我們要兼顧，又要達到減碳，又要環境保育，又要應付我們AI的用電量劇增，環境部的立場是怎麼樣？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，環境部的立場就是更多這種低碳、對環境好的能源，我們都歡迎，不過也跟委員報告，我也關注美國新核能的發展動態，例如他們新的NuScale的SMR核電廠已經追加預算到105億美金，但是它大概只有發四百多MW，所以其實這個的費用是很難估計的，如果未來國際上像美國有更好更新的、已經有商業化運轉的，我們當然會歡迎，但是目前臺灣還是只能靠自己去做轉型的工作。"],["涂委員權吉：其實之前我們也做過以核養綠的公投，有六成的民眾是支持的，我們現在也看到，我們燃煤、燃氣、再生能源的發電量整體進度上是落後的，所以這個新的核能技術如果能夠提供，又達到我們之前以核養綠公投的結果，也可以讓我們減碳，也可以讓我們的環境保育工作可以做得更好，我倒覺得是不是我們可以來考量一下這一部分，而且整體來講，人家也講，目前核能也是最好的綠能。這一部分，彭部長，你也贊同嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：核能不是綠能，核能是乾淨的能源。"],["涂委員權吉：乾淨的能源。可是整體來講，目前它的碳排量應該是非常非常的低……"],["彭部長啓明：相對的非常的低，但是也報告委員，我對核能並沒有任何立場，我很務實在看，現實就在眼前，因為目前在國際上新的核能發展技術費用非常的高，而且還不確定，另外一個是延役的成本也可能在這個裡面，委員，所以如果你們可以解決，我當然是樂觀其成，但是這個壓力會非常的大。"],["涂委員權吉：我們姑且不談我們目前的能源政策，不講政治上的問題，目前看起來，如果要應付這個AI時代的用電劇增，又要達到減碳，又要達到環保，整體來講，這個新的核能技術其實是一個蠻好的選項。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們目前規劃2035的減碳目標是沒有把核能放進去的，未來如果有任何的改變或新技術，當然是可以幫助，但是我也特別提醒委員，因為後面的成本還有引發社會上不同的意見應該蠻大的，也請委員多考量。"],["涂委員權吉：好，我也希望我們大家可以來務實推動能源的轉型，我們要應付我們的用電量，要兼顧減碳、要兼顧環保，我覺得經濟部、環境部應該針對這一部分好好的思維一下，怎麼應付後面所要面臨用電量劇增，又要兼顧減碳、環保的問題。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["涂委員權吉：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝涂委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請王正旭委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張啓楷","張智倫","楊曜","翁曉玲","劉建國","陳瑩","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","蘇清泉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、教育部、經濟部、台灣電力公司、台灣中油公司就「氣象變異致\n國內空品惡化，精進預報與跨部會應變作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00004"}}}