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{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 111.011, \"end\": 111.151, \"score\": 0.603}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 111.151, \"end\": 111.211, \"score\": 0.668}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 111.211, \"end\": 111.271, \"score\": 0.325}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 111.271, \"end\": 111.371, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 111.371, \"end\": 111.511, \"score\": 0.767}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 111.511, \"end\": 111.691, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 111.691, \"end\": 111.791, \"score\": 0.484}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 111.791, \"end\": 111.951, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 111.951, \"end\": 112.571, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 112.571, \"end\": 112.711, \"score\": 0.48}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 112.711, \"end\": 113.252, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 113.252, \"end\": 113.352, \"score\": 0.772}, {\"word\": \"有\", 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{\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 123.875, \"end\": 123.895, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 123.895, \"end\": 124.776, \"score\": 0.754}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 124.776, \"end\": 124.896, \"score\": 0.514}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 124.896, \"end\": 125.036, \"score\": 0.473}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 125.036, \"end\": 125.196, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 125.196, \"end\": 125.636, \"score\": 0.735}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 125.636, \"end\": 125.936, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 125.936, \"end\": 126.036, \"score\": 0.77}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 126.036, \"end\": 126.316, \"score\": 0.652}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 126.316, \"end\": 126.416, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 126.416, \"end\": 126.536, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 126.536, \"end\": 126.556, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": 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\"start\": 365.247, \"end\": 365.267, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"括\", \"start\": 365.267, \"end\": 365.347, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 365.347, \"end\": 365.387, \"score\": 0.051}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 365.387, \"end\": 365.447, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 365.447, \"end\": 365.467, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 365.467, \"end\": 365.487, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 365.487, \"end\": 365.507, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"又\", \"start\": 365.507, \"end\": 365.568, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 365.568, \"end\": 365.588, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 365.588, \"end\": 365.608, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"日\", \"start\": 365.608, \"end\": 365.628, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 365.628, \"end\": 365.648, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 365.648, \"end\": 365.828, \"score\": 0.65}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 365.828, \"end\": 365.848, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"又\", \"start\": 365.848, \"end\": 365.928, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 365.928, \"end\": 365.968, \"score\": 0.006}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 365.968, \"end\": 365.988, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"德\", \"start\": 365.988, \"end\": 366.128, \"score\": 0.606}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 366.128, \"end\": 366.268, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 366.268, \"end\": 366.288, \"score\": 0.802}]}, {\"start\": 380.758, \"end\": 388.323, \"text\": \"那因為剛才依照剛才那個技術的這個關鍵核心技術的這個清單當中是講14米以下的嘛14米以下那大家可以看到是在美國的部分呢就已經看到有432米還更先進技術省的部分要呈現出來然後日本是12那韓國也有部分也在14之下那德國呢是特別專用在車用的這個晶片當中是12米這個也有包括到12米的那我想請問一下過去的這一部分\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 380.758, \"end\": 381.219, \"score\": 0.735}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 381.219, \"end\": 381.379, \"score\": 0.639}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 381.379, \"end\": 381.599, \"score\": 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\"start\": 727.763, \"end\": 727.784, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,438 --> 00:00:03,800\n好謝謝主席有請吳主委請吳主委備質詢謝謝李委員好好主委我們都都是過去在學校裡面服務的人員那就是這是第一次的這個質詢那就請大家互相保持一個良好的關係謝謝好那今天大家可以看到在有關於\n\n2\n00:00:29,454 --> 00:00:32,779\n台積電的對美投資有超過1000億的這樣新增的投資這部分還是在繼續燃燒這樣的新聞那本席這邊想要關注的就是說國科會作為主管\n\n3\n00:00:44,597 --> 00:01:03,663\n高科技發展跟研發的跟管理的這樣的一個機關的時候呢特別想要問到是關於說在國家的核心關鍵技術跟國家安全的問題上面尤其是我們看到的是這個裡面涉及到的是有1000有三座晶圓廠是先進還有封裝測試的這個設施還有研發的這個中心也在那邊設立的那下一頁\n\n4\n00:01:10,965 --> 00:01:15,826\n吳淑蔚妳在3月13號的時候也特別講到說台積電我們沒有辦法去管它在台積電的機密但是它赴美的管制是政府是有依法去管理的那就想詢問的是國科會它依照什麼樣的法令來去管理台積電赴美的投資\n\n5\n00:01:37,832 --> 00:01:44,283\n國會並沒有管投資就是投資的部分是廠商要提出申請跟經濟部提出申請那由投審會來審議\n\n6\n00:01:47,069 --> 00:02:06,756\n但是我們可以看到是說在國安法這邊我們可以看到下一部分您是說沒有錯它本身是一個投資行為所以在經濟部這邊但是在高科技的這樣子的出去的這個情況之下有根據國安法的第三條第三項大家可以看到這裡面第三條第三項是說有關國家核心關鍵技術的這個部分\n\n7\n00:02:12,198 --> 00:02:16,661\n那這邊說如果涉及到外國不只是說包括大陸地區廣告地區等等的話呢他會有涉及到的是不只是說可能涉及到損害到國家的安全利益或是說就是產業的競爭力跟經濟發展的時候我們看到台積電在我們國家的GDP是非常大的這個情況之下絕對的而且形成到其他貴國區的話競爭力的確會受到影響那這個部分\n\n8\n00:02:36,594 --> 00:02:53,640\n特別看到第三條的第四項的時候說關於這個科技認定技術等等的還有認定的程序跟相關的遵行辦法是由國家科學委員會裡面會同其他單位去做商定的那在這個地方我們現在想要看的是下一頁的地方\n\n9\n00:02:56,482 --> 00:03:11,314\n這個網頁是從國科會的網站下來的下載的地方可以看到的是在這邊往下拉的時候可以看到第17、18項的時候可以看到的是關於18、19項可以看到奈米技術這邊\n\n10\n00:03:15,150 --> 00:03:28,521\n包括是封裝技術等等的這部分大家看到他的所謂技術主管機關我看到很訝異是看到是農業部農業部那這個不曉得這部分是不是有比物的情形出現那個那部分應該是經濟部啦可能是物質\n\n11\n00:03:34,431 --> 00:03:53,916\n好OK那我們繼續往下看那這個部分下一頁我們就會看到因為這個部分從網站裡面刷下來的地方在1、2年的時候呢可以呈現出來的是說是技術主管機關是經濟部就像您剛才所說的那我就想說的是說在政府裡面是認為說\n\n12\n00:03:55,683 --> 00:04:07,481\n在主管的奈米技術跟封裝技術這部分的時候經濟部是比國科會還更適合的擔任技術主管機關的嗎我想請教\n\n13\n00:04:10,170 --> 00:04:21,223\n經濟部是目標事業的主管機關國科會是負責科研科技研發但是我們的確在國安法裡面國科會負責關鍵敏感技術關鍵科技基礎\n\n14\n00:04:26,989 --> 00:04:35,495\n那個叫什麼國家核心關鍵技術我們負責會診我們負責這個審議所以我們有一個審議委員會那審議委員會是各部會的代表以及我們還有民間產業界的專家來擔任這個審議委員各部會會提報我們每年會檢討一次各部會會提報提報他所主政的範圍之內\n\n15\n00:04:48,945 --> 00:05:06,395\n有哪些民間國家關鍵技術核心關鍵技術提報上來我們會經由我們的審議委員會來審定審定完以後我們只是列技術項目審定完以後在施政的範圍各部位依照他自己的管制項目\n\n16\n00:05:06,795 --> 00:05:17,765\n他會解釋在他施政範圍裡面的一些運作的細節所以包含在投資的項目裡面我們只列出這個項目名稱但是他的內容很多的這個條件將來在經濟部他會去\n\n17\n00:05:21,849 --> 00:05:28,695\n解釋這個管制的項目有哪些所以廠商如果在申請的時候他會依照經濟部的細節來申請所以有關半導體的項目的確是經濟部來主管\n\n18\n00:05:36,943 --> 00:05:51,731\n好不過我可以理解是事業主管的這部分是經濟部可是因為他是寫的技術主管機關特別想到技術所以我想說我等一下到最後的時候就提到說這部分可能還是要依據名目上面可能是比較適合的那就往下寫\n\n19\n00:05:53,779 --> 00:06:06,288\n我們現在更重要的是在這裡就是說您剛才也把說要去投資半導體的投資這一部分的時候就會有經過相關的跨部會尤其在跟經濟部的這邊可能是投審會這邊的相關的部分那我們看到是剛才已經有提到是美國的投資是這部分那我們再繼續往下看在這個地方因為台積電它過去的投資項目有好幾種就包括去的美國然後又去了日本然後又去了德國這部分\n\n20\n00:06:20,758 --> 00:06:28,323\n那因為剛才依照剛才那個技術的這個關鍵核心技術的這個清單當中是講14米以下的嘛14米以下那大家可以看到是在美國的部分呢就已經看到有432米還更先進技術省的部分要呈現出來然後日本是12那韓國也有部分也在14之下那德國呢是特別專用在車用的這個晶片當中是12米這個也有包括到12米的那我想請問一下過去的這一部分\n\n21\n00:06:51,019 --> 00:07:16,121\n這個審理的期間大概是多少那個程序你剛才也有說過了那他們審理會因為各個國家有這個審理的標準會一樣的嗎這三個國家都不在我們管制的範圍啊這三個國家的科技都比台灣還要進步耶但是我們的高科技是台積電到那邊去啊所以你的意思是說是設廠而已是不是那是投資的審議跟那個核心觀念技術其實是無關的\n\n22\n00:07:16,940 --> 00:07:37,914\n好那可是剛才我們在往下面一再看的時候就覺得說你看說在半導體的技術上面其實這些國家都比我們強大是嗎是啊在科技的部分美國絕對是比台灣強大但是在半導體的晶片這邊嗎在半導體全占製程的量產台積電現在是全世界第一\n\n23\n00:07:38,905 --> 00:08:06,398\n台積電現在是製程上面是台灣製程製造的技術製造的技術裡面有非常多是我們叫商業機密融合的部分台積電累積過去這個40年它三十幾年將近四十幾年了對不起還不到40年1987到現在累積的這些製造相關的一些商業機密\n\n24\n00:08:07,799 --> 00:08:23,974\n它是很難被了解的,政府也不會完全了解所以這部分是要保護的,台積電自己要保護的很好,我們政府也要求他要保護的很好這部分是不能夠外移的,也沒有辦法\n\n25\n00:08:26,266 --> 00:08:43,805\n可是我們再往下面看就是在這邊看到在上一頁的地方可是你剛才說的你說要求是把台積電自己要保護得很好因為這邊是屬於商業的部分那可是剛才有看到是美國的那邊也要設晶圓的也要研發中心對不對晶片的研發中心\n\n26\n00:08:45,446 --> 00:09:02,845\n這邊的情況之下我們就剛才看到是如果台積電在3月4號跟美國總統在開會的就在記者會的時候都已經說到了他就是要去投資了那這種情況你就把它變成說你台積電我們國科會這邊的話整體上面是可以當作說不嗎還是說你真的就是變成怎麼應對這個情況呢我可以跟委員\n\n27\n00:09:05,347 --> 00:09:29,528\n解釋一下,因為台積電也公開這樣的產出台積電所謂在美國投資的研發中心是基於它已經量產的技術到當地製造以後那個製造還要不斷的精進要不斷的精進,所以它同一個製程的精進版也需要有研發中心來協助它的精進\n\n28\n00:09:30,709 --> 00:09:50,456\n所以在不同的這個場區,它經濟的模式都會不一樣,會依照當地的這個供應鏈、設備,還有它的市場產品,會做這個那個製成節點的經濟。所以它其實每一個場,每一個場區,投資的每一個場區,都會有這樣的這個研發中心,都會有。\n\n29\n00:09:51,243 --> 00:10:19,090\n好所以是因為他這邊因為您是這邊的慢導體專家所以這邊已經提到說他是在針對當地的產品上面跟當地的硝煥合作就這樣子提升這個技術的可能性好那這邊因為時間的關係這邊我只要再繼續的再說下去的時候就是我把它放到最後面來看的時候因為這個地方我們可以看到說原來是商業機密的部分還是跟技術還是有跟各國在合作的部分這個情況\n\n30\n00:10:21,090 --> 00:10:47,346\n我最後想要衝到最後一頁好嗎主席跟你講說這部分還有一些這個剛才說有群聚要過去是群聚我剛才也聽到這部分但是我是想到說避免到這個半導體的避免說我們台灣有這個荷蘭病的這種出現因為資源的過度集中會把它扭曲包括其他的部分有排擠效應那我們現在先看到下一頁的情況之下看到的是說零在這個科技的\n\n31\n00:10:49,887 --> 00:10:57,933\n國科會的報告當中下一頁當中其實有談到在下一頁這裡在這邊看到的是說有這個太空科技進行的科技產業這部分不過這邊我們包括你說說所有的百工百業都能夠找到數位這部分的我看到是說太空科技這邊好像沒有把這個國防的部分再把它納到太空科技包括錢的這部分事實上可能可以再把它含掛在裡面包括所謂這樣\n\n32\n00:11:18,867 --> 00:11:37,404\n這個無人機這部分那靜寧科技這邊事實上是二零二五年二零五零年之後都是一直要進行的部分那這邊他可以使用到所謂傳統的各種的產業這個部分我想說這邊可能應該在更多的一個科技技術的部分研發經費等等要加入就是提供這樣的建議那最後這部分呢這樣您覺得\n\n33\n00:11:39,426 --> 00:12:05,921\n好就是這樣子我覺得這邊我提供這個建議啦當然我是希望說你也把它作為一個分工廠但是我還是希望說因為剛才講到的是技術部分的主管機關我覺得我可謂是當之無疑啦所以這個地方如果把它放在這個清單當中說是技術部分的主管機關的時候我真的覺得還是應該抓回到這個國家關鍵核心管制技術裡面的職責然後這產業的管理的問題希望能夠繼續的就是再注意到好就這樣子謝謝\n\n34\n00:12:07,642 --> 00:12:07,784\n好謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n438\t3800\t好 謝謝主席有請吳主委請吳主委備質詢 謝謝李委員好好 主委我們都都是過去在學校裡面服務的人員那就是這是第一次的這個質詢那就請大家互相保持一個良好的關係謝謝好 那今天大家可以看到在有關於\n29454\t32779\t台積電的對美投資有超過1000億的這樣新增的投資這部分還是在繼續燃燒這樣的新聞那本席這邊想要關注的就是說國科會作為主管\n44597\t63663\t高科技發展跟研發的跟管理的這樣的一個機關的時候呢特別想要問到是關於說在國家的核心關鍵技術跟國家安全的問題上面尤其是我們看到的是這個裡面涉及到的是有1000有三座晶圓廠是先進還有封裝測試的這個設施還有研發的這個中心也在那邊設立的那下一頁\n70965\t75826\t吳淑蔚妳在3月13號的時候也特別講到說台積電我們沒有辦法去管它在台積電的機密但是它赴美的管制是政府是有依法去管理的那就想詢問的是國科會它依照什麼樣的法令來去管理台積電赴美的投資\n97832\t104283\t國會並沒有管投資就是投資的部分是廠商要提出申請跟經濟部提出申請那由投審會來審議\n107069\t126756\t但是我們可以看到是說在國安法這邊我們可以看到下一部分您是說沒有錯它本身是一個投資行為所以在經濟部這邊但是在高科技的這樣子的出去的這個情況之下有根據國安法的第三條第三項大家可以看到這裡面第三條第三項是說有關國家核心關鍵技術的這個部分\n132198\t136661\t那這邊說如果涉及到外國不只是說包括大陸地區廣告地區等等的話呢他會有涉及到的是不只是說可能涉及到損害到國家的安全利益或是說就是產業的競爭力跟經濟發展的時候我們看到台積電在我們國家的GDP是非常大的這個情況之下絕對的而且形成到其他貴國區的話競爭力的確會受到影響那這個部分\n156594\t173640\t特別看到第三條的第四項的時候說關於這個科技認定技術等等的還有認定的程序跟相關的遵行辦法是由國家科學委員會裡面會同其他單位去做商定的那在這個地方我們現在想要看的是下一頁的地方\n176482\t191314\t這個網頁是從國科會的網站下來的下載的地方可以看到的是在這邊往下拉的時候可以看到第17、18項的時候可以看到的是關於18、19項可以看到奈米技術這邊\n195150\t208521\t包括是封裝技術等等的這部分大家看到他的所謂技術主管機關我看到很訝異是看到是農業部農業部那這個不曉得這部分是不是有比物的情形出現那個那部分應該是經濟部啦可能是物質\n214431\t233916\t好 OK 那我們繼續往下看那這個部分 下一頁我們就會看到因為這個部分從網站裡面刷下來的地方在1、2年的時候呢可以呈現出來的是說是技術主管機關是經濟部就像您剛才所說的那我就想說的是說在政府裡面是認為說\n235683\t247481\t在主管的奈米技術跟封裝技術這部分的時候經濟部是比國科會還更適合的擔任技術主管機關的嗎我想請教\n250170\t261223\t經濟部是目標事業的主管機關國科會是負責科研科技研發但是我們的確在國安法裡面國科會負責關鍵敏感技術關鍵科技基礎\n266989\t275495\t那個叫什麼國家核心關鍵技術我們負責會診我們負責這個審議所以我們有一個審議委員會那審議委員會是各部會的代表以及我們還有民間產業界的專家來擔任這個審議委員各部會會提報我們每年會檢討一次各部會會提報提報他所主政的範圍之內\n288945\t306395\t有哪些民間國家關鍵技術核心關鍵技術提報上來我們會經由我們的審議委員會來審定審定完以後我們只是列技術項目審定完以後在施政的範圍各部位依照他自己的管制項目\n306795\t317765\t他會解釋在他施政範圍裡面的一些運作的細節所以包含在投資的項目裡面我們只列出這個項目名稱但是他的內容很多的這個條件將來在經濟部他會去\n321849\t328695\t解釋這個管制的項目有哪些所以廠商如果在申請的時候他會依照經濟部的細節來申請所以有關半導體的項目的確是經濟部來主管\n336943\t351731\t好不過我可以理解是事業主管的這部分是經濟部可是因為他是寫的技術主管機關特別想到技術所以我想說我等一下到最後的時候就提到說這部分可能還是要依據名目上面可能是比較適合的那就往下寫\n353779\t366288\t我們現在更重要的是在這裡就是說您剛才也把說要去投資半導體的投資這一部分的時候就會有經過相關的跨部會尤其在跟經濟部的這邊可能是投審會這邊的相關的部分那我們看到是剛才已經有提到是美國的投資是這部分那我們再繼續往下看在這個地方因為台積電它過去的投資項目有好幾種就包括去的美國然後又去了日本然後又去了德國這部分\n380758\t388323\t那因為剛才依照剛才那個技術的這個關鍵核心技術的這個清單當中是講14米以下的嘛14米以下那大家可以看到是在美國的部分呢就已經看到有432米還更先進技術省的部分要呈現出來然後日本是12那韓國也有部分也在14之下那德國呢是特別專用在車用的這個晶片當中是12米這個也有包括到12米的那我想請問一下過去的這一部分\n411019\t436121\t這個審理的期間大概是多少那個程序你剛才也有說過了那他們審理會因為各個國家有這個審理的標準會一樣的嗎這三個國家都不在我們管制的範圍啊這三個國家的科技都比台灣還要進步耶但是我們的高科技是台積電到那邊去啊所以你的意思是說是設廠而已是不是那是投資的審議跟那個核心觀念技術其實是無關的\n436940\t457914\t好 那可是剛才我們在往下面一再看的時候就覺得說你看說在半導體的技術上面其實這些國家都比我們強大是嗎是啊 在科技的部分美國絕對是比台灣強大但是在半導體的晶片這邊嗎在半導體全占製程的量產台積電現在是全世界第一\n458905\t486398\t台積電現在是製程上面是台灣製程製造的技術製造的技術裡面有非常多是我們叫商業機密融合的部分台積電累積過去這個40年它三十幾年將近四十幾年了對不起還不到40年1987到現在累積的這些製造相關的一些商業機密\n487799\t503974\t它是很難被了解的,政府也不會完全了解所以這部分是要保護的,台積電自己要保護的很好,我們政府也要求他要保護的很好這部分是不能夠外移的,也沒有辦法\n506266\t523805\t可是我們再往下面看就是在這邊看到在上一頁的地方可是你剛才說的你說要求是把台積電自己要保護得很好因為這邊是屬於商業的部分那可是剛才有看到是美國的那邊也要設晶圓的也要研發中心對不對晶片的研發中心\n525446\t542845\t這邊的情況之下我們就剛才看到是如果台積電在3月4號跟美國總統在開會的就在記者會的時候都已經說到了他就是要去投資了那這種情況你就把它變成說你台積電我們國科會這邊的話整體上面是可以當作說不嗎還是說你真的就是變成怎麼應對這個情況呢我可以跟委員\n545347\t569528\t解釋一下,因為台積電也公開這樣的產出台積電所謂在美國投資的研發中心是基於它已經量產的技術到當地製造以後那個製造還要不斷的精進要不斷的精進,所以它同一個製程的精進版也需要有研發中心來協助它的精進\n570709\t590456\t所以在不同的這個場區,它經濟的模式都會不一樣,會依照當地的這個供應鏈、設備,還有它的市場產品,會做這個那個製成節點的經濟。所以它其實每一個場,每一個場區,投資的每一個場區,都會有這樣的這個研發中心,都會有。\n591243\t619090\t好 所以是因為他這邊因為您是這邊的慢導體專家所以這邊已經提到說他是在針對當地的產品上面跟當地的硝煥合作就這樣子提升這個技術的可能性好 那這邊因為時間的關係這邊我只要再繼續的再說下去的時候就是我把它放到最後面來看的時候因為這個地方我們可以看到說原來是商業機密的部分還是跟技術還是有跟各國在合作的部分這個情況\n621090\t647346\t我最後想要衝到最後一頁好嗎主席跟你講說這部分還有一些這個剛才說有群聚要過去是群聚我剛才也聽到這部分但是我是想到說避免到這個半導體的避免說我們台灣有這個荷蘭病的這種出現因為資源的過度集中會把它扭曲包括其他的部分有排擠效應那我們現在先看到下一頁的情況之下看到的是說零在這個科技的\n649887\t657933\t國科會的報告當中下一頁當中其實有談到在下一頁這裡在這邊看到的是說有這個太空科技進行的科技產業這部分不過這邊我們包括你說說所有的百工百業都能夠找到數位這部分的我看到是說太空科技這邊好像沒有把這個國防的部分再把它納到太空科技包括錢的這部分事實上可能可以再把它含掛在裡面包括所謂這樣\n678867\t697404\t這個無人機這部分那靜寧科技這邊事實上是二零二五年二零五零年之後都是一直要進行的部分那這邊他可以使用到所謂傳統的各種的產業這個部分我想說這邊可能應該在更多的一個科技技術的部分研發經費等等要加入就是提供這樣的建議那最後這部分呢這樣您覺得\n699426\t725921\t好 就是這樣子 我覺得這邊我提供這個建議啦當然我是希望說 你也把它作為一個分工廠但是我還是希望說 因為剛才講到的是技術部分的主管機關 我覺得我可謂是當之無疑啦所以這個地方如果把它放在這個清單當中說是技術部分的主管機關的時候我真的覺得還是應該抓回到這個國家關鍵核心管制技術裡面的職責然後這產業的管理的問題 希望能夠繼續的就是再注意到好 就這樣子 謝謝\n727642\t727784\t好 謝謝委員\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席有請吳主委請吳主委備質詢 謝謝李委員好好 主委我們都都是過去在學校裡面服務的人員那就是這是第一次的這個質詢那就請大家互相保持一個良好的關係謝謝好 那今天大家可以看到在有關於\n台積電的對美投資有超過1000億的這樣新增的投資這部分還是在繼續燃燒這樣的新聞那本席這邊想要關注的就是說國科會作為主管\n高科技發展跟研發的跟管理的這樣的一個機關的時候呢特別想要問到是關於說在國家的核心關鍵技術跟國家安全的問題上面尤其是我們看到的是這個裡面涉及到的是有1000有三座晶圓廠是先進還有封裝測試的這個設施還有研發的這個中心也在那邊設立的那下一頁\n吳淑蔚妳在3月13號的時候也特別講到說台積電我們沒有辦法去管它在台積電的機密但是它赴美的管制是政府是有依法去管理的那就想詢問的是國科會它依照什麼樣的法令來去管理台積電赴美的投資\n國會並沒有管投資就是投資的部分是廠商要提出申請跟經濟部提出申請那由投審會來審議\n但是我們可以看到是說在國安法這邊我們可以看到下一部分您是說沒有錯它本身是一個投資行為所以在經濟部這邊但是在高科技的這樣子的出去的這個情況之下有根據國安法的第三條第三項大家可以看到這裡面第三條第三項是說有關國家核心關鍵技術的這個部分\n那這邊說如果涉及到外國不只是說包括大陸地區廣告地區等等的話呢他會有涉及到的是不只是說可能涉及到損害到國家的安全利益或是說就是產業的競爭力跟經濟發展的時候我們看到台積電在我們國家的GDP是非常大的這個情況之下絕對的而且形成到其他貴國區的話競爭力的確會受到影響那這個部分\n特別看到第三條的第四項的時候說關於這個科技認定技術等等的還有認定的程序跟相關的遵行辦法是由國家科學委員會裡面會同其他單位去做商定的那在這個地方我們現在想要看的是下一頁的地方\n這個網頁是從國科會的網站下來的下載的地方可以看到的是在這邊往下拉的時候可以看到第17、18項的時候可以看到的是關於18、19項可以看到奈米技術這邊\n包括是封裝技術等等的這部分大家看到他的所謂技術主管機關我看到很訝異是看到是農業部農業部那這個不曉得這部分是不是有比物的情形出現那個那部分應該是經濟部啦可能是物質\n好 OK 那我們繼續往下看那這個部分 下一頁我們就會看到因為這個部分從網站裡面刷下來的地方在1、2年的時候呢可以呈現出來的是說是技術主管機關是經濟部就像您剛才所說的那我就想說的是說在政府裡面是認為說\n在主管的奈米技術跟封裝技術這部分的時候經濟部是比國科會還更適合的擔任技術主管機關的嗎我想請教\n經濟部是目標事業的主管機關國科會是負責科研科技研發但是我們的確在國安法裡面國科會負責關鍵敏感技術關鍵科技基礎\n那個叫什麼國家核心關鍵技術我們負責會診我們負責這個審議所以我們有一個審議委員會那審議委員會是各部會的代表以及我們還有民間產業界的專家來擔任這個審議委員各部會會提報我們每年會檢討一次各部會會提報提報他所主政的範圍之內\n有哪些民間國家關鍵技術核心關鍵技術提報上來我們會經由我們的審議委員會來審定審定完以後我們只是列技術項目審定完以後在施政的範圍各部位依照他自己的管制項目\n他會解釋在他施政範圍裡面的一些運作的細節所以包含在投資的項目裡面我們只列出這個項目名稱但是他的內容很多的這個條件將來在經濟部他會去\n解釋這個管制的項目有哪些所以廠商如果在申請的時候他會依照經濟部的細節來申請所以有關半導體的項目的確是經濟部來主管\n好不過我可以理解是事業主管的這部分是經濟部可是因為他是寫的技術主管機關特別想到技術所以我想說我等一下到最後的時候就提到說這部分可能還是要依據名目上面可能是比較適合的那就往下寫\n我們現在更重要的是在這裡就是說您剛才也把說要去投資半導體的投資這一部分的時候就會有經過相關的跨部會尤其在跟經濟部的這邊可能是投審會這邊的相關的部分那我們看到是剛才已經有提到是美國的投資是這部分那我們再繼續往下看在這個地方因為台積電它過去的投資項目有好幾種就包括去的美國然後又去了日本然後又去了德國這部分\n那因為剛才依照剛才那個技術的這個關鍵核心技術的這個清單當中是講14米以下的嘛14米以下那大家可以看到是在美國的部分呢就已經看到有432米還更先進技術省的部分要呈現出來然後日本是12那韓國也有部分也在14之下那德國呢是特別專用在車用的這個晶片當中是12米這個也有包括到12米的那我想請問一下過去的這一部分\n這個審理的期間大概是多少那個程序你剛才也有說過了那他們審理會因為各個國家有這個審理的標準會一樣的嗎這三個國家都不在我們管制的範圍啊這三個國家的科技都比台灣還要進步耶但是我們的高科技是台積電到那邊去啊所以你的意思是說是設廠而已是不是那是投資的審議跟那個核心觀念技術其實是無關的\n好 那可是剛才我們在往下面一再看的時候就覺得說你看說在半導體的技術上面其實這些國家都比我們強大是嗎是啊 在科技的部分美國絕對是比台灣強大但是在半導體的晶片這邊嗎在半導體全占製程的量產台積電現在是全世界第一\n台積電現在是製程上面是台灣製程製造的技術製造的技術裡面有非常多是我們叫商業機密融合的部分台積電累積過去這個40年它三十幾年將近四十幾年了對不起還不到40年1987到現在累積的這些製造相關的一些商業機密\n它是很難被了解的,政府也不會完全了解所以這部分是要保護的,台積電自己要保護的很好,我們政府也要求他要保護的很好這部分是不能夠外移的,也沒有辦法\n可是我們再往下面看就是在這邊看到在上一頁的地方可是你剛才說的你說要求是把台積電自己要保護得很好因為這邊是屬於商業的部分那可是剛才有看到是美國的那邊也要設晶圓的也要研發中心對不對晶片的研發中心\n這邊的情況之下我們就剛才看到是如果台積電在3月4號跟美國總統在開會的就在記者會的時候都已經說到了他就是要去投資了那這種情況你就把它變成說你台積電我們國科會這邊的話整體上面是可以當作說不嗎還是說你真的就是變成怎麼應對這個情況呢我可以跟委員\n解釋一下,因為台積電也公開這樣的產出台積電所謂在美國投資的研發中心是基於它已經量產的技術到當地製造以後那個製造還要不斷的精進要不斷的精進,所以它同一個製程的精進版也需要有研發中心來協助它的精進\n所以在不同的這個場區,它經濟的模式都會不一樣,會依照當地的這個供應鏈、設備,還有它的市場產品,會做這個那個製成節點的經濟。所以它其實每一個場,每一個場區,投資的每一個場區,都會有這樣的這個研發中心,都會有。\n好 所以是因為他這邊因為您是這邊的慢導體專家所以這邊已經提到說他是在針對當地的產品上面跟當地的硝煥合作就這樣子提升這個技術的可能性好 那這邊因為時間的關係這邊我只要再繼續的再說下去的時候就是我把它放到最後面來看的時候因為這個地方我們可以看到說原來是商業機密的部分還是跟技術還是有跟各國在合作的部分這個情況\n我最後想要衝到最後一頁好嗎主席跟你講說這部分還有一些這個剛才說有群聚要過去是群聚我剛才也聽到這部分但是我是想到說避免到這個半導體的避免說我們台灣有這個荷蘭病的這種出現因為資源的過度集中會把它扭曲包括其他的部分有排擠效應那我們現在先看到下一頁的情況之下看到的是說零在這個科技的\n國科會的報告當中下一頁當中其實有談到在下一頁這裡在這邊看到的是說有這個太空科技進行的科技產業這部分不過這邊我們包括你說說所有的百工百業都能夠找到數位這部分的我看到是說太空科技這邊好像沒有把這個國防的部分再把它納到太空科技包括錢的這部分事實上可能可以再把它含掛在裡面包括所謂這樣\n這個無人機這部分那靜寧科技這邊事實上是二零二五年二零五零年之後都是一直要進行的部分那這邊他可以使用到所謂傳統的各種的產業這個部分我想說這邊可能應該在更多的一個科技技術的部分研發經費等等要加入就是提供這樣的建議那最後這部分呢這樣您覺得\n好 就是這樣子 我覺得這邊我提供這個建議啦當然我是希望說 你也把它作為一個分工廠但是我還是希望說 因為剛才講到的是技術部分的主管機關 我覺得我可謂是當之無疑啦所以這個地方如果把它放在這個清單當中說是技術部分的主管機關的時候我真的覺得還是應該抓回到這個國家關鍵核心管制技術裡面的職責然後這產業的管理的問題 希望能夠繼續的就是再注意到好 就這樣子 謝謝\n好 謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.438 --> 00:03.800\n好謝謝主席有請吳主委請吳主委備質詢謝謝李委員好好主委我們都都是過去在學校裡面服務的人員那就是這是第一次的這個質詢那就請大家互相保持一個良好的關係謝謝好那今天大家可以看到在有關於\n\n00:29.454 --> 00:32.779\n台積電的對美投資有超過1000億的這樣新增的投資這部分還是在繼續燃燒這樣的新聞那本席這邊想要關注的就是說國科會作為主管\n\n00:44.597 --> 01:03.663\n高科技發展跟研發的跟管理的這樣的一個機關的時候呢特別想要問到是關於說在國家的核心關鍵技術跟國家安全的問題上面尤其是我們看到的是這個裡面涉及到的是有1000有三座晶圓廠是先進還有封裝測試的這個設施還有研發的這個中心也在那邊設立的那下一頁\n\n01:10.965 --> 01:15.826\n吳淑蔚妳在3月13號的時候也特別講到說台積電我們沒有辦法去管它在台積電的機密但是它赴美的管制是政府是有依法去管理的那就想詢問的是國科會它依照什麼樣的法令來去管理台積電赴美的投資\n\n01:37.832 --> 01:44.283\n國會並沒有管投資就是投資的部分是廠商要提出申請跟經濟部提出申請那由投審會來審議\n\n01:47.069 --> 02:06.756\n但是我們可以看到是說在國安法這邊我們可以看到下一部分您是說沒有錯它本身是一個投資行為所以在經濟部這邊但是在高科技的這樣子的出去的這個情況之下有根據國安法的第三條第三項大家可以看到這裡面第三條第三項是說有關國家核心關鍵技術的這個部分\n\n02:12.198 --> 02:16.661\n那這邊說如果涉及到外國不只是說包括大陸地區廣告地區等等的話呢他會有涉及到的是不只是說可能涉及到損害到國家的安全利益或是說就是產業的競爭力跟經濟發展的時候我們看到台積電在我們國家的GDP是非常大的這個情況之下絕對的而且形成到其他貴國區的話競爭力的確會受到影響那這個部分\n\n02:36.594 --> 02:53.640\n特別看到第三條的第四項的時候說關於這個科技認定技術等等的還有認定的程序跟相關的遵行辦法是由國家科學委員會裡面會同其他單位去做商定的那在這個地方我們現在想要看的是下一頁的地方\n\n02:56.482 --> 03:11.314\n這個網頁是從國科會的網站下來的下載的地方可以看到的是在這邊往下拉的時候可以看到第17、18項的時候可以看到的是關於18、19項可以看到奈米技術這邊\n\n03:15.150 --> 03:28.521\n包括是封裝技術等等的這部分大家看到他的所謂技術主管機關我看到很訝異是看到是農業部農業部那這個不曉得這部分是不是有比物的情形出現那個那部分應該是經濟部啦可能是物質\n\n03:34.431 --> 03:53.916\n好OK那我們繼續往下看那這個部分下一頁我們就會看到因為這個部分從網站裡面刷下來的地方在1、2年的時候呢可以呈現出來的是說是技術主管機關是經濟部就像您剛才所說的那我就想說的是說在政府裡面是認為說\n\n03:55.683 --> 04:07.481\n在主管的奈米技術跟封裝技術這部分的時候經濟部是比國科會還更適合的擔任技術主管機關的嗎我想請教\n\n04:10.170 --> 04:21.223\n經濟部是目標事業的主管機關國科會是負責科研科技研發但是我們的確在國安法裡面國科會負責關鍵敏感技術關鍵科技基礎\n\n04:26.989 --> 04:35.495\n那個叫什麼國家核心關鍵技術我們負責會診我們負責這個審議所以我們有一個審議委員會那審議委員會是各部會的代表以及我們還有民間產業界的專家來擔任這個審議委員各部會會提報我們每年會檢討一次各部會會提報提報他所主政的範圍之內\n\n04:48.945 --> 05:06.395\n有哪些民間國家關鍵技術核心關鍵技術提報上來我們會經由我們的審議委員會來審定審定完以後我們只是列技術項目審定完以後在施政的範圍各部位依照他自己的管制項目\n\n05:06.795 --> 05:17.765\n他會解釋在他施政範圍裡面的一些運作的細節所以包含在投資的項目裡面我們只列出這個項目名稱但是他的內容很多的這個條件將來在經濟部他會去\n\n05:21.849 --> 05:28.695\n解釋這個管制的項目有哪些所以廠商如果在申請的時候他會依照經濟部的細節來申請所以有關半導體的項目的確是經濟部來主管\n\n05:36.943 --> 05:51.731\n好不過我可以理解是事業主管的這部分是經濟部可是因為他是寫的技術主管機關特別想到技術所以我想說我等一下到最後的時候就提到說這部分可能還是要依據名目上面可能是比較適合的那就往下寫\n\n05:53.779 --> 06:06.288\n我們現在更重要的是在這裡就是說您剛才也把說要去投資半導體的投資這一部分的時候就會有經過相關的跨部會尤其在跟經濟部的這邊可能是投審會這邊的相關的部分那我們看到是剛才已經有提到是美國的投資是這部分那我們再繼續往下看在這個地方因為台積電它過去的投資項目有好幾種就包括去的美國然後又去了日本然後又去了德國這部分\n\n06:20.758 --> 06:28.323\n那因為剛才依照剛才那個技術的這個關鍵核心技術的這個清單當中是講14米以下的嘛14米以下那大家可以看到是在美國的部分呢就已經看到有432米還更先進技術省的部分要呈現出來然後日本是12那韓國也有部分也在14之下那德國呢是特別專用在車用的這個晶片當中是12米這個也有包括到12米的那我想請問一下過去的這一部分\n\n06:51.019 --> 07:16.121\n這個審理的期間大概是多少那個程序你剛才也有說過了那他們審理會因為各個國家有這個審理的標準會一樣的嗎這三個國家都不在我們管制的範圍啊這三個國家的科技都比台灣還要進步耶但是我們的高科技是台積電到那邊去啊所以你的意思是說是設廠而已是不是那是投資的審議跟那個核心觀念技術其實是無關的\n\n07:16.940 --> 07:37.914\n好那可是剛才我們在往下面一再看的時候就覺得說你看說在半導體的技術上面其實這些國家都比我們強大是嗎是啊在科技的部分美國絕對是比台灣強大但是在半導體的晶片這邊嗎在半導體全占製程的量產台積電現在是全世界第一\n\n07:38.905 --> 08:06.398\n台積電現在是製程上面是台灣製程製造的技術製造的技術裡面有非常多是我們叫商業機密融合的部分台積電累積過去這個40年它三十幾年將近四十幾年了對不起還不到40年1987到現在累積的這些製造相關的一些商業機密\n\n08:07.799 --> 08:23.974\n它是很難被了解的,政府也不會完全了解所以這部分是要保護的,台積電自己要保護的很好,我們政府也要求他要保護的很好這部分是不能夠外移的,也沒有辦法\n\n08:26.266 --> 08:43.805\n可是我們再往下面看就是在這邊看到在上一頁的地方可是你剛才說的你說要求是把台積電自己要保護得很好因為這邊是屬於商業的部分那可是剛才有看到是美國的那邊也要設晶圓的也要研發中心對不對晶片的研發中心\n\n08:45.446 --> 09:02.845\n這邊的情況之下我們就剛才看到是如果台積電在3月4號跟美國總統在開會的就在記者會的時候都已經說到了他就是要去投資了那這種情況你就把它變成說你台積電我們國科會這邊的話整體上面是可以當作說不嗎還是說你真的就是變成怎麼應對這個情況呢我可以跟委員\n\n09:05.347 --> 09:29.528\n解釋一下,因為台積電也公開這樣的產出台積電所謂在美國投資的研發中心是基於它已經量產的技術到當地製造以後那個製造還要不斷的精進要不斷的精進,所以它同一個製程的精進版也需要有研發中心來協助它的精進\n\n09:30.709 --> 09:50.456\n所以在不同的這個場區,它經濟的模式都會不一樣,會依照當地的這個供應鏈、設備,還有它的市場產品,會做這個那個製成節點的經濟。所以它其實每一個場,每一個場區,投資的每一個場區,都會有這樣的這個研發中心,都會有。\n\n09:51.243 --> 10:19.090\n好所以是因為他這邊因為您是這邊的慢導體專家所以這邊已經提到說他是在針對當地的產品上面跟當地的硝煥合作就這樣子提升這個技術的可能性好那這邊因為時間的關係這邊我只要再繼續的再說下去的時候就是我把它放到最後面來看的時候因為這個地方我們可以看到說原來是商業機密的部分還是跟技術還是有跟各國在合作的部分這個情況\n\n10:21.090 --> 10:47.346\n我最後想要衝到最後一頁好嗎主席跟你講說這部分還有一些這個剛才說有群聚要過去是群聚我剛才也聽到這部分但是我是想到說避免到這個半導體的避免說我們台灣有這個荷蘭病的這種出現因為資源的過度集中會把它扭曲包括其他的部分有排擠效應那我們現在先看到下一頁的情況之下看到的是說零在這個科技的\n\n10:49.887 --> 10:57.933\n國科會的報告當中下一頁當中其實有談到在下一頁這裡在這邊看到的是說有這個太空科技進行的科技產業這部分不過這邊我們包括你說說所有的百工百業都能夠找到數位這部分的我看到是說太空科技這邊好像沒有把這個國防的部分再把它納到太空科技包括錢的這部分事實上可能可以再把它含掛在裡面包括所謂這樣\n\n11:18.867 --> 11:37.404\n這個無人機這部分那靜寧科技這邊事實上是二零二五年二零五零年之後都是一直要進行的部分那這邊他可以使用到所謂傳統的各種的產業這個部分我想說這邊可能應該在更多的一個科技技術的部分研發經費等等要加入就是提供這樣的建議那最後這部分呢這樣您覺得\n\n11:39.426 --> 12:05.921\n好就是這樣子我覺得這邊我提供這個建議啦當然我是希望說你也把它作為一個分工廠但是我還是希望說因為剛才講到的是技術部分的主管機關我覺得我可謂是當之無疑啦所以這個地方如果把它放在這個清單當中說是技術部分的主管機關的時候我真的覺得還是應該抓回到這個國家關鍵核心管制技術裡面的職責然後這產業的管理的問題希望能夠繼續的就是再注意到好就這樣子謝謝\n\n12:07.642 --> 12:07.784\n好謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.438,"end":3.8,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請吳主委請吳主委備質詢 謝謝李委員好好 主委我們都都是過去在學校裡面服務的人員那就是這是第一次的這個質詢那就請大家互相保持一個良好的關係謝謝好 那今天大家可以看到在有關於"},{"start":29.454,"end":32.779,"text":"台積電的對美投資有超過1000億的這樣新增的投資這部分還是在繼續燃燒這樣的新聞那本席這邊想要關注的就是說國科會作為主管"},{"start":44.597,"end":63.663,"text":"高科技發展跟研發的跟管理的這樣的一個機關的時候呢特別想要問到是關於說在國家的核心關鍵技術跟國家安全的問題上面尤其是我們看到的是這個裡面涉及到的是有1000有三座晶圓廠是先進還有封裝測試的這個設施還有研發的這個中心也在那邊設立的那下一頁"},{"start":70.965,"end":75.826,"text":"吳淑蔚妳在3月13號的時候也特別講到說台積電我們沒有辦法去管它在台積電的機密但是它赴美的管制是政府是有依法去管理的那就想詢問的是國科會它依照什麼樣的法令來去管理台積電赴美的投資"},{"start":97.832,"end":104.283,"text":"國會並沒有管投資就是投資的部分是廠商要提出申請跟經濟部提出申請那由投審會來審議"},{"start":107.069,"end":126.756,"text":"但是我們可以看到是說在國安法這邊我們可以看到下一部分您是說沒有錯它本身是一個投資行為所以在經濟部這邊但是在高科技的這樣子的出去的這個情況之下有根據國安法的第三條第三項大家可以看到這裡面第三條第三項是說有關國家核心關鍵技術的這個部分"},{"start":132.198,"end":136.661,"text":"那這邊說如果涉及到外國不只是說包括大陸地區廣告地區等等的話呢他會有涉及到的是不只是說可能涉及到損害到國家的安全利益或是說就是產業的競爭力跟經濟發展的時候我們看到台積電在我們國家的GDP是非常大的這個情況之下絕對的而且形成到其他貴國區的話競爭力的確會受到影響那這個部分"},{"start":156.594,"end":173.64,"text":"特別看到第三條的第四項的時候說關於這個科技認定技術等等的還有認定的程序跟相關的遵行辦法是由國家科學委員會裡面會同其他單位去做商定的那在這個地方我們現在想要看的是下一頁的地方"},{"start":176.482,"end":191.314,"text":"這個網頁是從國科會的網站下來的下載的地方可以看到的是在這邊往下拉的時候可以看到第17、18項的時候可以看到的是關於18、19項可以看到奈米技術這邊"},{"start":195.15,"end":208.521,"text":"包括是封裝技術等等的這部分大家看到他的所謂技術主管機關我看到很訝異是看到是農業部農業部那這個不曉得這部分是不是有比物的情形出現那個那部分應該是經濟部啦可能是物質"},{"start":214.431,"end":233.916,"text":"好 OK 那我們繼續往下看那這個部分 下一頁我們就會看到因為這個部分從網站裡面刷下來的地方在1、2年的時候呢可以呈現出來的是說是技術主管機關是經濟部就像您剛才所說的那我就想說的是說在政府裡面是認為說"},{"start":235.683,"end":247.481,"text":"在主管的奈米技術跟封裝技術這部分的時候經濟部是比國科會還更適合的擔任技術主管機關的嗎我想請教"},{"start":250.17,"end":261.223,"text":"經濟部是目標事業的主管機關國科會是負責科研科技研發但是我們的確在國安法裡面國科會負責關鍵敏感技術關鍵科技基礎"},{"start":266.989,"end":275.495,"text":"那個叫什麼國家核心關鍵技術我們負責會診我們負責這個審議所以我們有一個審議委員會那審議委員會是各部會的代表以及我們還有民間產業界的專家來擔任這個審議委員各部會會提報我們每年會檢討一次各部會會提報提報他所主政的範圍之內"},{"start":288.945,"end":306.395,"text":"有哪些民間國家關鍵技術核心關鍵技術提報上來我們會經由我們的審議委員會來審定審定完以後我們只是列技術項目審定完以後在施政的範圍各部位依照他自己的管制項目"},{"start":306.795,"end":317.765,"text":"他會解釋在他施政範圍裡面的一些運作的細節所以包含在投資的項目裡面我們只列出這個項目名稱但是他的內容很多的這個條件將來在經濟部他會去"},{"start":321.849,"end":328.695,"text":"解釋這個管制的項目有哪些所以廠商如果在申請的時候他會依照經濟部的細節來申請所以有關半導體的項目的確是經濟部來主管"},{"start":336.943,"end":351.731,"text":"好不過我可以理解是事業主管的這部分是經濟部可是因為他是寫的技術主管機關特別想到技術所以我想說我等一下到最後的時候就提到說這部分可能還是要依據名目上面可能是比較適合的那就往下寫"},{"start":353.779,"end":366.288,"text":"我們現在更重要的是在這裡就是說您剛才也把說要去投資半導體的投資這一部分的時候就會有經過相關的跨部會尤其在跟經濟部的這邊可能是投審會這邊的相關的部分那我們看到是剛才已經有提到是美國的投資是這部分那我們再繼續往下看在這個地方因為台積電它過去的投資項目有好幾種就包括去的美國然後又去了日本然後又去了德國這部分"},{"start":380.758,"end":388.323,"text":"那因為剛才依照剛才那個技術的這個關鍵核心技術的這個清單當中是講14米以下的嘛14米以下那大家可以看到是在美國的部分呢就已經看到有432米還更先進技術省的部分要呈現出來然後日本是12那韓國也有部分也在14之下那德國呢是特別專用在車用的這個晶片當中是12米這個也有包括到12米的那我想請問一下過去的這一部分"},{"start":411.019,"end":436.121,"text":"這個審理的期間大概是多少那個程序你剛才也有說過了那他們審理會因為各個國家有這個審理的標準會一樣的嗎這三個國家都不在我們管制的範圍啊這三個國家的科技都比台灣還要進步耶但是我們的高科技是台積電到那邊去啊所以你的意思是說是設廠而已是不是那是投資的審議跟那個核心觀念技術其實是無關的"},{"start":436.94,"end":457.914,"text":"好 那可是剛才我們在往下面一再看的時候就覺得說你看說在半導體的技術上面其實這些國家都比我們強大是嗎是啊 在科技的部分美國絕對是比台灣強大但是在半導體的晶片這邊嗎在半導體全占製程的量產台積電現在是全世界第一"},{"start":458.905,"end":486.398,"text":"台積電現在是製程上面是台灣製程製造的技術製造的技術裡面有非常多是我們叫商業機密融合的部分台積電累積過去這個40年它三十幾年將近四十幾年了對不起還不到40年1987到現在累積的這些製造相關的一些商業機密"},{"start":487.799,"end":503.974,"text":"它是很難被了解的,政府也不會完全了解所以這部分是要保護的,台積電自己要保護的很好,我們政府也要求他要保護的很好這部分是不能夠外移的,也沒有辦法"},{"start":506.266,"end":523.805,"text":"可是我們再往下面看就是在這邊看到在上一頁的地方可是你剛才說的你說要求是把台積電自己要保護得很好因為這邊是屬於商業的部分那可是剛才有看到是美國的那邊也要設晶圓的也要研發中心對不對晶片的研發中心"},{"start":525.446,"end":542.845,"text":"這邊的情況之下我們就剛才看到是如果台積電在3月4號跟美國總統在開會的就在記者會的時候都已經說到了他就是要去投資了那這種情況你就把它變成說你台積電我們國科會這邊的話整體上面是可以當作說不嗎還是說你真的就是變成怎麼應對這個情況呢我可以跟委員"},{"start":545.347,"end":569.528,"text":"解釋一下,因為台積電也公開這樣的產出台積電所謂在美國投資的研發中心是基於它已經量產的技術到當地製造以後那個製造還要不斷的精進要不斷的精進,所以它同一個製程的精進版也需要有研發中心來協助它的精進"},{"start":570.709,"end":590.456,"text":"所以在不同的這個場區,它經濟的模式都會不一樣,會依照當地的這個供應鏈、設備,還有它的市場產品,會做這個那個製成節點的經濟。所以它其實每一個場,每一個場區,投資的每一個場區,都會有這樣的這個研發中心,都會有。"},{"start":591.243,"end":619.09,"text":"好 所以是因為他這邊因為您是這邊的慢導體專家所以這邊已經提到說他是在針對當地的產品上面跟當地的硝煥合作就這樣子提升這個技術的可能性好 那這邊因為時間的關係這邊我只要再繼續的再說下去的時候就是我把它放到最後面來看的時候因為這個地方我們可以看到說原來是商業機密的部分還是跟技術還是有跟各國在合作的部分這個情況"},{"start":621.09,"end":647.346,"text":"我最後想要衝到最後一頁好嗎主席跟你講說這部分還有一些這個剛才說有群聚要過去是群聚我剛才也聽到這部分但是我是想到說避免到這個半導體的避免說我們台灣有這個荷蘭病的這種出現因為資源的過度集中會把它扭曲包括其他的部分有排擠效應那我們現在先看到下一頁的情況之下看到的是說零在這個科技的"},{"start":649.887,"end":657.933,"text":"國科會的報告當中下一頁當中其實有談到在下一頁這裡在這邊看到的是說有這個太空科技進行的科技產業這部分不過這邊我們包括你說說所有的百工百業都能夠找到數位這部分的我看到是說太空科技這邊好像沒有把這個國防的部分再把它納到太空科技包括錢的這部分事實上可能可以再把它含掛在裡面包括所謂這樣"},{"start":678.867,"end":697.404,"text":"這個無人機這部分那靜寧科技這邊事實上是二零二五年二零五零年之後都是一直要進行的部分那這邊他可以使用到所謂傳統的各種的產業這個部分我想說這邊可能應該在更多的一個科技技術的部分研發經費等等要加入就是提供這樣的建議那最後這部分呢這樣您覺得"},{"start":699.426,"end":725.921,"text":"好 就是這樣子 我覺得這邊我提供這個建議啦當然我是希望說 你也把它作為一個分工廠但是我還是希望說 因為剛才講到的是技術部分的主管機關 我覺得我可謂是當之無疑啦所以這個地方如果把它放在這個清單當中說是技術部分的主管機關的時候我真的覺得還是應該抓回到這個國家關鍵核心管制技術裡面的職責然後這產業的管理的問題 希望能夠繼續的就是再注意到好 就這樣子 謝謝"},{"start":727.642,"end":727.784,"text":"好 謝謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":457,"blocks":[["劉委員書彬：（11時10分）謝謝主席。有請吳主委。"],["主席：請吳主委備質詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：劉委員好。"],["劉委員書彬：好。主委，我們都是過去在學校裡面服務的人員，這是第一次的質詢，那就請大家互相保持一個良好的關係，謝謝。","今天大家可以看到，有關於台積電對美投資有超過1,000億這樣一個新增投資這部分還是繼續延燒的新聞，本席這邊想要關注的就是，國科會作為主管高科技發展、研發跟管理的一個機關，特別想要問到關於國家核心關鍵技術跟國家安全的問題，尤其是我們看到這裡面涉及的是三座晶圓廠，還有先進封裝測試的設施，還有研發中心要在那邊設立。我們看到吳主委在3月13日的時候，也特別講到我們沒有辦法去管台積電的機密，但是它赴美的管制，國科會、政府是有依法去管理的。那就想詢問的是，國科會是依照什麼樣的法令來去管理台積電赴美的投資？"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會並沒有管投資，投資的部分是廠商要跟經濟部提出申請，由投審會來審議。"],["劉委員書彬：好，但是我們可以看到在國安法這邊，沒有錯，它本身是一個投資行為，所以是經濟部這邊，但是在高科技這樣子出去的情況之下，根據國安法第三條第三項，第三條第三項是所謂國家核心關鍵技術這個部分，這邊提到如果涉及外國，不只是涉及大陸地區、港澳地區等等，它可能涉及損害國家安全利益或是產業競爭力跟經濟發展的時候，我們看到台積電占我們國家的GDP是非常大的，這個情況之下，它到其他各國去的話，競爭力的確會受到影響。這個部分特別看到第三條的第四項，關於國家核心關鍵技術之認定程序及其他應遵行事項之辦法，由國家科學委員會會商有關機關定之。接下來的這個網頁是從國科會的網站下來的，下載的地方往下拉，在第十八項、十九項可以看到的是奈米技術這邊，等於是晶片，包括封裝技術等等這部分，大家看到它所謂的技術主管機關，我看到很訝異，看到是農業部。不曉得這部分是不是有筆誤的情形出現？"],["吳主任委員誠文：那一部分應該是經濟部，可能是誤植。"],["劉委員書彬：好。我們繼續往下看，下一頁我們就可以看到，因為從網站裡面抓下來的部分，在112年的時候呈現出來技術主管機關是經濟部，就像您剛才所說的。那麼我就想，在政府裡面是認為在主管奈米技術跟封裝技術這一部分，經濟部是比國科會還更適合擔任技術主管機關的嗎？我想請教。"],["吳主任委員誠文：經濟部是目的事業主管機關，國科會是負責科技研發，但是的確在國安法裡面，國科會負責國家核心關鍵技術的彙整、審議，所以我們有個審議委員會，審議委員會是各部會的代表，以及民間產業界的專家來擔任審議委員，各部會會提報，我們每年會檢討一次，各部會提報它所主政的範圍之內有哪些國家核心關鍵技術，提報上來，我們會經由審議委員會來審定，我們只是列技術項目，審定完以後，在施政的範圍，各部會依照自己的管制項目，它會去解釋在它施政範圍裡面的一些運作細節，所以包含在投資的項目裡面，我們只列出這個項目名稱，但是它的內容、很多的條件，將來經濟部會去解釋管制的項目有哪些，所以廠商如果在申請的時候，他會依照經濟部的細節來申請，所以有關半導體的這個項目，的確是經濟部來主管。"],["劉委員書彬：好，我可以理解是事業主管的這部分是經濟部，可是因為它寫的是技術主管機關，特別強調技術，所以等一下到最後的時候，我就會提到，這部分還是要依據名目上面可能是比較適合的。","往下看，我們現在更重要的是在這裡，你剛才也說要做半導體的投資這一部分的時候就會經過跨部會，也就是跟經濟部，可能是投審會這邊相關的部分，剛才已經有提到是美國的投資是這個部分，我們就繼續往下看。因為台積電過去的投資項目有好幾種，包括去美國，然後又去了日本，然後又去了德國，因為依照剛才關鍵核心技術的清單當中，是講14奈米以下的，大家可以看到是在美國的部分就已經看到有4奈米、3奈米、2奈米，還有更先進製程的部分要呈現出來；日本是12奈米，有部分也是在14奈米之下；德國是特別用在車用的晶片當中，是12米，也有包括到12奈米。我想詢問一下，過去這一部分審理的期間大概是多少，那個程序你剛才也有說過了，審理會因為各國國家有……審理標準會一樣嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這三個國家都不在我們管制的範圍，這三個國家的科技都比臺灣還要進步。"],["劉委員書彬：但是我們的高科技是台積電到那邊去，所以你的意思是設廠而已，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：那是投資，是投資的審議，跟核心關鍵技術其實是無關的。"],["劉委員書彬：好，但是我們再往下看，你剛才說在半導體的技術上面，其實這些國家都比我們強大是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是啊，在科技的部分，美國絕對比臺灣強大。"],["劉委員書彬：那是在半導體的晶片這邊嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：在半導體前瞻製程的量產，台積電現在是全世界第一。"],["劉委員書彬：台積電現在是製程上面……"],["吳主任委員誠文：製程，製造的技術裡面有非常多是我們叫商業機密know-how的部分，是台積電累積過去三十幾年、從1987年累積到現在，累積的這些製造相關的商業機密，它是很難被了解的，政府也不會完全了解，所以這部分是要保護的，台積電自己要保護得很好，我們政府也要求它要保護得很好，這部分是不能夠外移的，也沒有辦法。"],["劉委員書彬：好。可是你剛才說要求台積電自己要保護得很好，因為這邊是屬於商業的部分。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["劉委員書彬：可是剛才也看到美國那邊也要設晶圓的研發中心，在這樣情況之下，我們剛才看到的是，台積電在3月4日跟美國總統在開記者會的時候，都已經說到它就是要去投資了。這種情況，對於台積電，我們國科會在審理上面可以說不嗎？還是怎麼應對這個情況呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我可以跟委員解釋一下嗎？"],["劉委員書彬：好。"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為台積電也公開這樣的闡述，台積電所謂在美國投資的研發中心，是基於它已經量產的技術到當地製造以後，那個製造還要不斷的精進，所以它同一個製程的精進版也需要有研發中心來協助它的精進。所以在不同的廠區，精進的模式都會不一樣，會依照當地的供應鏈、設備，還有它的市場、產品做製程節點的精進，所以其實投資的每一個廠區都會有這樣的研發中心。"],["劉委員書彬：好，因為您是半導體的專家，所以你就提到說，它是針對當地的產品跟當地的交換合作，這樣子來提升技術的可行性。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["劉委員書彬：好，因為時間的關係，我繼續再說下去，我把它放到最後面來看，這個地方我們可以看到原來是商業機密的部分跟技術面，還是有跟各國在合作的部分，是這個情況。這部分剛才說還有群聚要過去，我也聽到這部分，但是我是想到要避免我們臺灣出現荷蘭病，因為資源的過度集中會把它扭曲，包括其他的部分有排擠效應。您在國科會的報告當中，其實有談到太空科技，包括淨零科技產業，不過包括你說百工百業都能夠轉到數位這部分，我看到的是太空科技這邊好像沒有把國防的部分再納到所謂的太空科技，包括錢這部分，事實上可能可以再把它含括在裡面，包括無人機。淨零科技事實上到2050年都是一直要進行的，它可以適用到所謂傳統的各種產業，我想說這邊可能應該有更多的科技、技術及研發經費等等都要加入，提供這樣的建議。","最後，我提供這個建議，當然我是希望你也把它做個分工，因為剛開始強調技術部分的主管機關，我覺得國科會當之無疑，所以這個地方如果把它放入清單，作為技術部分的主管機關，我真的覺得還是應該抓回到國家關鍵核心管制技術裡面的職責，針對產業鏈轉移的問題，希望能夠繼續再注意到。好，就這樣子，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝劉書彬委員的質詢，主委請回座、部會官員回座，謝謝。","我們接著繼續進行質詢，請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","林沛祥","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","葉元之","郭昱晴","范雲","陳培瑜","萬美玲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","林倩綺"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00002"}}}