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755.398, \"end\": 755.418, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:03,972\n謝謝主席麻煩請委員長馬偉你好委員長好委員長因為剛剛有聽到我們在詢答的過程那委員長有特別提到說在某一些國家他可能是單一國籍的部分那像剛剛面臨的那樣的困難有哪一些國家請喬爾惠再提供給本席好不好好\n\n2\n00:00:30,390 --> 00:00:32,892\n另外我們先討論今天我們在報告裡面看到的就是我們有特別提到中國大陸在運用春節活動去展開一些文化統戰的這樣的一個作為\n\n3\n00:00:44,926 --> 00:00:50,209\n那他會送一些小物啊或者運用人情牌去拜會我們的僑社這個也影響到了我們海外僑民對我們的向心力那既然僑委會已經發現到對岸是利用節慶對華僑實施這樣的文化滲透的統戰\n\n4\n00:01:02,577 --> 00:01:06,240\n那來籠絡我們的僑民的心那這個部分請問僑委會在傳統節慶比如說像今年我們在春節的時候我們在不同的區域有做了哪些活動辦了什麼樣的或做什麼來增進僑界跟僑社團體對台灣的鏈結可不可以舉幾個例子\n\n5\n00:01:25,798 --> 00:01:43,497\n跟委員報告通常在農曆年節的時候他們都會有一些叫做新春的餐敘或者是新春團拜的活動那一般來講只要他有跟我們申請要辦這些活動我們多少都會給你所以我們沒有主動辦任何的活動或做什麼事\n\n6\n00:01:46,300 --> 00:01:53,125\n有一些是僑團我們都是因應僑團才來做這些動作那因為每一個僑團如果我們主動辦的時候不見得僑團大家會一起來參加所以我們都是尊重個別僑團在舉辦但是如果非農曆春節而是元旦這種我們就會統一辦升旗活動所以春節我們辦了什麼?春節我們沒有主動辦春節都是配合因為大家時間會不一致\n\n7\n00:02:13,399 --> 00:02:15,542\n委員長我剛剛已經提到就是我們自己僑委會其實也發現到了就是說它對岸的做法我們是提供聽我講完它似乎是有達到那個效果\n\n8\n00:02:28,319 --> 00:02:31,961\n我們也知道他送東西然後可能去拜會然後發個紅包那可能我們是做不到嗎或者像這樣他們就有效那為什麼我們不做因為有很多華僑也反映說我們在辦這些活動的時候有時候那種儀式性\n\n9\n00:02:45,948 --> 00:02:51,433\n還有它的重複性太高就大家都一樣所以一點興趣都沒有那所以也引不起大家參與的這樣的一個興趣所以如果說他們的做法是有效的而我們卻沒有其他的個別或者我們一個突破性的做法那只會讓我們的人一直流失所以這個部分我想僑委會可以主動去做一些事情\n\n10\n00:03:09,147 --> 00:03:19,376\n因為既然你都已經發現對岸的做法是有效的那我們怎麼可以讓我們的人一直流失或者一直被拉攏就這個部分我覺得沒有什麼被動或主動或是配合或者只是補助主要是傳統橋社剛剛講那個拉攏都是傳統橋社為主那部分的是說他們辦的春節活動想要邀我們台橋社團但基本上我們台橋社團都沒有去參加\n\n11\n00:03:36,051 --> 00:03:41,958\n那他們也都會回報給我們所以這是兩個不同的僑團性質我剛剛已經講很清楚過去例行性的我們那個無所謂可是當你已經發現委員我們沒有辦法有那麼多預算去跟他做某種的加碼我當然是用其他的方式來繼續的\n\n12\n00:03:54,392 --> 00:03:57,515\n我們以前您大概也是有選舉過我們當然在看資源或各方面的條件的時候我們不見得都是資源最充裕的一方可是要怎麼樣讓大家認同或者怎麼樣去拉攏這是我們要去做的今天不是錢多少的問題那裡永遠都輸他\n\n13\n00:04:16,069 --> 00:04:20,793\n所以不要拿這個理由來說我們這個不能做那個不能做我剛剛已經提到了如果因為他送那個小物看起來你也大概7萬份而已那你去拜會也不需要花什麼錢那如果這個有效為什麼我們不能做這根錢我們也有去拜會我們都會送一個禮物過去那如果這樣我們還輸人家那你必須要檢討說為什麼他容易被拉攏或者他是什麼樣的因素\n\n14\n00:04:44,451 --> 00:04:48,897\n這個我們自己去檢討再去改善嘛好不好那另外僑委會在接受媒體採訪的時候有提到中方是採取打著綠席反綠這個部分好像是我們委員長對媒體也說到中國過去對於就是近期的發展對\n\n15\n00:05:01,834 --> 00:05:04,795\n中國過去對於親中偏藍的這些僑社僑團其實他們會刻意拉攏那現在好像是這個比較失去寵愛了可是我想要關心的是僑委會如何去區分他到底是親中可能比較明顯那個很容易就可以看得出來那你偏藍偏綠因為偏藍偏綠對於我們補助因為有我程度\n\n16\n00:05:29,684 --> 00:05:32,067\n對於我們的協會會的補助是有差別的那你偏藍偏綠是怎麼去分補助沒有差別但是呢有我程度嘛應該這樣講你在補助的時候我們有列一個有我有我的那種程度是有的\n\n17\n00:05:45,138 --> 00:05:56,064\n我們有一個公式在計算所以我們是怎麼區分的怎麼區分他是偏藍偏綠我們是以他舉辦活動的內容我現在不講補助委員長我不講補助我說我們因為有講到偏藍偏綠比方說我來講一個概念就是國民黨貴黨都還有很多海外的黨部\n\n18\n00:06:09,592 --> 00:06:19,339\n那這些黨部也都有成立一些社團所以這些就非常清楚它叫做偏藍嘛那有沒有什麼比較偏綠的偏綠的當然也有就比方說FAPA大家知道的公共人事務協會這叫台派嘛所以是由民進黨去組成的不是它不是不不不FAPA比民進黨更早他們是在美國登記的僑團跟民進黨也沒有關係那像同鄉會已經50年了比我們民進黨更早我們民進黨來講是幾歲\n\n19\n00:06:39,053 --> 00:06:41,214\n因為過去僑胞在對於我們尤其像抗日期間其實他不管捐錢捐住設立學校捐飛機捐很多很多的資源所以我現在要講的是如果你今天僑委會都已經先分了藍分了綠那你在內部已經做出這樣的一個差別的一個判定\n\n20\n00:07:08,746 --> 00:07:14,231\n那你認為其他的他們應該要怎麼做因為社團就社團比如說獅子會裡面會有藍有綠啊那你久了以後其實你還可以去拉他們然後你可以讓他們有一個共同的終止目標是什麼所以我現在要特別提醒的是你在內部已經做了藍綠的分別\n\n21\n00:07:32,828 --> 00:07:37,109\n沒有我是做事實陳述我沒有做分別陳述是你說的那你既然是已經做這樣的陳述就是說這個都是傳統的分別出來了你已經把它分別出來了那以前它既然是偏藍或偏綠有很多為什麼它要拉攏甚至你說對岸已經在拉攏比較輕綠的了\n\n22\n00:07:52,654 --> 00:07:55,157\n所以其實如果在內部我剛剛聽說講完我們現在擔心的部分如果你在內部先分了敵我或者先分了藍綠或者先做一個區隔有時候我們要讓他們團結\n\n23\n00:08:08,590 --> 00:08:13,874\n會更困難尤其僑委會更不應該這樣做他從過去因為過去的年代他是什麼樣的一個政治背景比如說那時候就是只有國民黨在執政所以那時候的成立或者更早的時候他們為台灣在付出的時候他們也沒有分哪一個政黨就是說他回到台灣的時候他還是希望我們的教育資源不足我們就提供教育資源各方面我們會提供那你應該如果僑委會的一個\n\n24\n00:08:38,391 --> 00:08:43,695\n重要的一個存在的價值它就是讓我們所有的可能跟我們有鏈結的這樣子的一個僑胞、僑民、僑社它都可以對我們認同這在國際上是很重要的所以就這個部分我們還是希望邱委會其實自己把分寸可以拿捏得更好\n\n25\n00:09:03,168 --> 00:09:22,766\n我簡單回應一下事實上這兩三年我在海外辦各種僑務座談的時候藍的也有綠的也有我所謂藍的也有綠的也有是代表說台灣是一個多元政黨民主社會所以我常常跟所有的僑民說你支持哪一個政黨都沒有關係我們只有一個共同的信念就是我們是\n\n26\n00:09:23,647 --> 00:09:29,653\n支持中華民國台灣這個概念所以同樣的這樣子我對僑團也是持同樣的態度我不會因為他的政治立場是什麼而去給他差別待遇但是我必須說中共是會區分的做法是這個我們觀察到的現象所以觀察到現象我們要自己去想我們策略上要怎麼因應而已\n\n27\n00:09:45,407 --> 00:09:49,513\n但是在立場上我並沒有說今天他是政黨立場不一樣我就差別待遇那第二個就是說我要跟委員報告他們都是在海外的僑團那麼這些僑團我們都是輔助他而已我們沒有主導他們的委員長您說的我知道\n\n28\n00:10:01,089 --> 00:10:03,150\n這對我們台灣來說我們要團結最多的力量嘛我要講的是當你要補助社團的時候你把那個補助的公式的內容再提供給門市\n\n29\n00:10:21,321 --> 00:10:24,524\n另外因為今天時間的關係我們沒有辦法問到因為天下雜誌有做了一個專章在討論我們的學生不管是教育部還是我們僑委會主辦的這樣子的部分它的標題其實讓人家看了非常難過\n\n30\n00:10:41,457 --> 00:10:44,298\n他說想做工就去台灣念書產學專班讓台灣淪為偽留學天堂這個基本上是一個偽專天中介剝削僑生的產業鏈\n\n31\n00:10:52,196 --> 00:10:56,578\n委員長你不用先否認也不用去因為其實你的計算方式也是錯的就像我們在說那個國防部好了他們在委員他們把我們沒有講的話寫出來這些事情是塞在我們的嘴巴裡面我一定會抗議的而且我已經去函跟他們講\n\n32\n00:11:16,247 --> 00:11:18,850\n因為這個雜誌已經出現了已經讓大家看到了如果要說明我們未來會有時間我現在要特別先提出來我們自己去理解的也有這樣的狀況你去了解看看我們對這些學生是不是夠好因為過去我們有很多的透過\n\n33\n00:11:34,384 --> 00:11:41,205\n教育部或者我們僑委會不管海青班也好或者過去的僑生也好我們訓練了非常多的優秀的人才而且在台灣創立了非常成功的企業因為那個就叫培養人才剛剛你們計算的公式你說七成然後天下雜誌說三成我們姑且不論他的那個分母分子的計算資料就像國防部我剛剛提到的如果你救你的木兵他達到百分之一百以上\n\n34\n00:12:04,170 --> 00:12:10,331\n可是他的就是他後來離開的更高所以我們的邊線比一直嚴重不足或者其他的人員不足是因為這樣你不能說他來註冊了可是他流失了你沒有去計算今天時間的關係這個問題是我們僑委會花了很多的錢編了更多的預算尤其這兩年我們希望他做到的是讓國際認同不要讓人家覺得我們是剝削\n\n35\n00:12:32,156 --> 00:12:35,418\n如果來了都是幫我們台灣的廠商解決他們的缺工問題或者幫學校快要倒了讓他有學生數這都是不對的我們希望有時間如果再安排我們會深入討論我認同委員的理念基本上我也是這樣的看法好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9\t3972\t謝謝主席 麻煩請委員長馬偉你好委員長好委員長因為剛剛有聽到我們在詢答的過程那委員長有特別提到說在某一些國家他可能是單一國籍的部分那像剛剛面臨的那樣的困難有哪一些國家請喬爾惠再提供給本席好不好好\n30390\t32892\t另外我們先討論今天我們在報告裡面看到的就是我們有特別提到中國大陸在運用春節活動去展開一些文化統戰的這樣的一個作為\n44926\t50209\t那他會送一些小物啊或者運用人情牌去拜會我們的僑社這個也影響到了我們海外僑民對我們的向心力那既然僑委會已經發現到對岸是利用節慶對華僑實施這樣的文化滲透的統戰\n62577\t66240\t那來籠絡我們的僑民的心那這個部分請問僑委會在傳統節慶比如說像今年我們在春節的時候我們在不同的區域有做了哪些活動辦了什麼樣的或做什麼來增進僑界跟僑社團體對台灣的鏈結可不可以舉幾個例子\n85798\t103497\t跟委員報告通常在農曆年節的時候他們都會有一些叫做新春的餐敘或者是新春團拜的活動那一般來講只要他有跟我們申請要辦這些活動我們多少都會給你所以我們沒有主動辦任何的活動或做什麼事\n106300\t113125\t有一些是僑團我們都是因應僑團才來做這些動作那因為每一個僑團如果我們主動辦的時候不見得僑團大家會一起來參加所以我們都是尊重個別僑團在舉辦但是如果非農曆春節而是元旦這種我們就會統一辦升旗活動所以春節我們辦了什麼?春節我們沒有主動辦春節都是配合因為大家時間會不一致\n133399\t135542\t委員長我剛剛已經提到就是我們自己僑委會其實也發現到了就是說它對岸的做法我們是提供聽我講完它似乎是有達到那個效果\n148319\t151961\t我們也知道他送東西然後可能去拜會然後發個紅包那可能我們是做不到嗎或者像這樣他們就有效那為什麼我們不做因為有很多華僑也反映說我們在辦這些活動的時候有時候那種儀式性\n165948\t171433\t還有它的重複性太高就大家都一樣所以一點興趣都沒有那所以也引不起大家參與的這樣的一個興趣所以如果說他們的做法是有效的而我們卻沒有其他的個別或者我們一個突破性的做法那只會讓我們的人一直流失所以這個部分我想僑委會可以主動去做一些事情\n189147\t199376\t因為既然你都已經發現對岸的做法是有效的那我們怎麼可以讓我們的人一直流失或者一直被拉攏就這個部分我覺得沒有什麼被動或主動或是配合或者只是補助主要是傳統橋社剛剛講那個拉攏都是傳統橋社為主那部分的是說他們辦的春節活動想要邀我們台橋社團但基本上我們台橋社團都沒有去參加\n216051\t221958\t那他們也都會回報給我們所以這是兩個不同的僑團性質我剛剛已經講很清楚過去例行性的我們那個無所謂可是當你已經發現委員我們沒有辦法有那麼多預算去跟他做某種的加碼我當然是用其他的方式來繼續的\n234392\t237515\t我們以前您大概也是有選舉過我們當然在看資源或各方面的條件的時候我們不見得都是資源最充裕的一方可是要怎麼樣讓大家認同或者怎麼樣去拉攏這是我們要去做的今天不是錢多少的問題那裡永遠都輸他\n256069\t260793\t所以不要拿這個理由來說我們這個不能做那個不能做我剛剛已經提到了如果因為他送那個小物看起來你也大概7萬份而已那你去拜會也不需要花什麼錢那如果這個有效為什麼我們不能做這根錢我們也有去拜會我們都會送一個禮物過去那如果這樣我們還輸人家那你必須要檢討說為什麼他容易被拉攏或者他是什麼樣的因素\n284451\t288897\t這個我們自己去檢討再去改善嘛 好不好那另外 僑委會在接受媒體採訪的時候有提到中方是採取打著綠席反綠這個部分好像是我們委員長對媒體也說到中國過去對於就是近期的發展 對\n301834\t304795\t中國過去對於親中偏藍的這些僑社僑團其實他們會刻意拉攏那現在好像是這個比較失去寵愛了可是我想要關心的是僑委會如何去區分他到底是親中可能比較明顯那個很容易就可以看得出來那你偏藍偏綠因為偏藍偏綠對於我們補助因為有我程度\n329684\t332067\t對於我們的協會會的補助是有差別的那你偏藍偏綠是怎麼去分補助沒有差別但是呢有我程度嘛應該這樣講你在補助的時候我們有列一個有我有我的那種程度是有的\n345138\t356064\t我們有一個公式在計算所以我們是怎麼區分的怎麼區分他是偏藍偏綠我們是以他舉辦活動的內容我現在不講補助委員長我不講補助我說我們因為有講到偏藍偏綠比方說我來講一個概念就是國民黨貴黨都還有很多海外的黨部\n369592\t379339\t那這些黨部也都有成立一些社團所以這些就非常清楚它叫做偏藍嘛那有沒有什麼比較偏綠的偏綠的當然也有就比方說FAPA大家知道的公共人事務協會這叫台派嘛所以是由民進黨去組成的不是它不是不不不FAPA比民進黨更早他們是在美國登記的僑團跟民進黨也沒有關係那像同鄉會已經50年了比我們民進黨更早我們民進黨來講是幾歲\n399053\t401214\t因為過去僑胞在對於我們尤其像抗日期間其實他不管捐錢捐住設立學校捐飛機捐很多很多的資源所以我現在要講的是如果你今天僑委會都已經先分了藍分了綠那你在內部已經做出這樣的一個差別的一個判定\n428746\t434231\t那你認為其他的他們應該要怎麼做因為社團就社團 比如說獅子會裡面會有藍有綠啊那你久了以後其實你還可以去拉他們然後你可以讓他們有一個共同的終止目標是什麼所以我現在要特別提醒的是你在內部已經做了藍綠的分別\n452828\t457109\t沒有我是做事實陳述我沒有做分別陳述是你說的那你既然是已經做這樣的陳述就是說這個都是傳統的分別出來了你已經把它分別出來了那以前它既然是偏藍或偏綠有很多為什麼它要拉攏甚至你說對岸已經在拉攏比較輕綠的了\n472654\t475157\t所以其實如果在內部我剛剛聽說講完我們現在擔心的部分如果你在內部先分了敵我或者先分了藍綠或者先做一個區隔有時候我們要讓他們團結\n488590\t493874\t會更困難尤其僑委會更不應該這樣做他從過去因為過去的年代他是什麼樣的一個政治背景比如說那時候就是只有國民黨在執政所以那時候的成立或者更早的時候他們為台灣在付出的時候他們也沒有分哪一個政黨就是說他回到台灣的時候他還是希望我們的教育資源不足我們就提供教育資源各方面我們會提供那你應該如果僑委會的一個\n518391\t523695\t重要的一個存在的價值它就是讓我們所有的可能跟我們有鏈結的這樣子的一個僑胞、僑民、僑社它都可以對我們認同這在國際上是很重要的所以就這個部分我們還是希望邱委會其實自己把分寸可以拿捏得更好\n543168\t562766\t我簡單回應一下事實上這兩三年我在海外辦各種僑務座談的時候藍的也有綠的也有我所謂藍的也有綠的也有是代表說台灣是一個多元政黨民主社會所以我常常跟所有的僑民說你支持哪一個政黨都沒有關係我們只有一個共同的信念就是我們是\n563647\t569653\t支持中華民國台灣這個概念所以同樣的這樣子我對僑團也是持同樣的態度我不會因為他的政治立場是什麼而去給他差別待遇但是我必須說中共是會區分的做法是這個我們觀察到的現象所以觀察到現象我們要自己去想我們策略上要怎麼因應而已\n585407\t589513\t但是在立場上我並沒有說今天他是政黨立場不一樣我就差別待遇那第二個就是說我要跟委員報告他們都是在海外的僑團那麼這些僑團我們都是輔助他而已我們沒有主導他們的委員長您說的我知道\n601089\t603150\t這對我們台灣來說 我們要團結最多的力量嘛我要講的是 當你要補助社團的時候你把那個補助的公式的內容再提供給門市\n621321\t624524\t另外因為今天時間的關係我們沒有辦法問到因為天下雜誌有做了一個專章在討論我們的學生不管是教育部還是我們僑委會主辦的這樣子的部分它的標題其實讓人家看了非常難過\n641457\t644298\t他說想做工就去台灣念書產學專班讓台灣淪為偽留學天堂這個基本上是一個偽專天中介剝削僑生的產業鏈\n652196\t656578\t委員長你不用先否認 也不用去 因為其實你的計算方式也是錯的就像我們在說那個國防部好了 他們在委員他們把我們沒有講的話寫出來 這些事情是塞在我們的嘴巴裡面我一定會抗議的 而且我已經去函跟他們講\n676247\t678850\t因為這個雜誌已經出現了已經讓大家看到了如果要說明我們未來會有時間我現在要特別先提出來我們自己去理解的也有這樣的狀況你去了解看看我們對這些學生是不是夠好因為過去我們有很多的透過\n694384\t701205\t教育部或者我們僑委會不管海青班也好或者過去的僑生也好我們訓練了非常多的優秀的人才而且在台灣創立了非常成功的企業因為那個就叫培養人才剛剛你們計算的公式你說七成然後天下雜誌說三成我們姑且不論他的那個分母分子的計算資料就像國防部我剛剛提到的如果你救你的木兵他達到百分之一百以上\n724170\t730331\t可是他的就是他後來離開的更高所以我們的邊線比一直嚴重不足或者其他的人員不足是因為這樣你不能說他來註冊了可是他流失了你沒有去計算今天時間的關係這個問題是我們僑委會花了很多的錢編了更多的預算尤其這兩年我們希望他做到的是讓國際認同不要讓人家覺得我們是剝削\n752156\t755418\t如果來了都是幫我們台灣的廠商解決他們的缺工問題或者幫學校快要倒了讓他有學生數這都是不對的我們希望有時間如果再安排我們會深入討論我認同委員的理念基本上我也是這樣的看法好謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 麻煩請委員長馬偉你好委員長好委員長因為剛剛有聽到我們在詢答的過程那委員長有特別提到說在某一些國家他可能是單一國籍的部分那像剛剛面臨的那樣的困難有哪一些國家請喬爾惠再提供給本席好不好好\n另外我們先討論今天我們在報告裡面看到的就是我們有特別提到中國大陸在運用春節活動去展開一些文化統戰的這樣的一個作為\n那他會送一些小物啊或者運用人情牌去拜會我們的僑社這個也影響到了我們海外僑民對我們的向心力那既然僑委會已經發現到對岸是利用節慶對華僑實施這樣的文化滲透的統戰\n那來籠絡我們的僑民的心那這個部分請問僑委會在傳統節慶比如說像今年我們在春節的時候我們在不同的區域有做了哪些活動辦了什麼樣的或做什麼來增進僑界跟僑社團體對台灣的鏈結可不可以舉幾個例子\n跟委員報告通常在農曆年節的時候他們都會有一些叫做新春的餐敘或者是新春團拜的活動那一般來講只要他有跟我們申請要辦這些活動我們多少都會給你所以我們沒有主動辦任何的活動或做什麼事\n有一些是僑團我們都是因應僑團才來做這些動作那因為每一個僑團如果我們主動辦的時候不見得僑團大家會一起來參加所以我們都是尊重個別僑團在舉辦但是如果非農曆春節而是元旦這種我們就會統一辦升旗活動所以春節我們辦了什麼?春節我們沒有主動辦春節都是配合因為大家時間會不一致\n委員長我剛剛已經提到就是我們自己僑委會其實也發現到了就是說它對岸的做法我們是提供聽我講完它似乎是有達到那個效果\n我們也知道他送東西然後可能去拜會然後發個紅包那可能我們是做不到嗎或者像這樣他們就有效那為什麼我們不做因為有很多華僑也反映說我們在辦這些活動的時候有時候那種儀式性\n還有它的重複性太高就大家都一樣所以一點興趣都沒有那所以也引不起大家參與的這樣的一個興趣所以如果說他們的做法是有效的而我們卻沒有其他的個別或者我們一個突破性的做法那只會讓我們的人一直流失所以這個部分我想僑委會可以主動去做一些事情\n因為既然你都已經發現對岸的做法是有效的那我們怎麼可以讓我們的人一直流失或者一直被拉攏就這個部分我覺得沒有什麼被動或主動或是配合或者只是補助主要是傳統橋社剛剛講那個拉攏都是傳統橋社為主那部分的是說他們辦的春節活動想要邀我們台橋社團但基本上我們台橋社團都沒有去參加\n那他們也都會回報給我們所以這是兩個不同的僑團性質我剛剛已經講很清楚過去例行性的我們那個無所謂可是當你已經發現委員我們沒有辦法有那麼多預算去跟他做某種的加碼我當然是用其他的方式來繼續的\n我們以前您大概也是有選舉過我們當然在看資源或各方面的條件的時候我們不見得都是資源最充裕的一方可是要怎麼樣讓大家認同或者怎麼樣去拉攏這是我們要去做的今天不是錢多少的問題那裡永遠都輸他\n所以不要拿這個理由來說我們這個不能做那個不能做我剛剛已經提到了如果因為他送那個小物看起來你也大概7萬份而已那你去拜會也不需要花什麼錢那如果這個有效為什麼我們不能做這根錢我們也有去拜會我們都會送一個禮物過去那如果這樣我們還輸人家那你必須要檢討說為什麼他容易被拉攏或者他是什麼樣的因素\n這個我們自己去檢討再去改善嘛 好不好那另外 僑委會在接受媒體採訪的時候有提到中方是採取打著綠席反綠這個部分好像是我們委員長對媒體也說到中國過去對於就是近期的發展 對\n中國過去對於親中偏藍的這些僑社僑團其實他們會刻意拉攏那現在好像是這個比較失去寵愛了可是我想要關心的是僑委會如何去區分他到底是親中可能比較明顯那個很容易就可以看得出來那你偏藍偏綠因為偏藍偏綠對於我們補助因為有我程度\n對於我們的協會會的補助是有差別的那你偏藍偏綠是怎麼去分補助沒有差別但是呢有我程度嘛應該這樣講你在補助的時候我們有列一個有我有我的那種程度是有的\n我們有一個公式在計算所以我們是怎麼區分的怎麼區分他是偏藍偏綠我們是以他舉辦活動的內容我現在不講補助委員長我不講補助我說我們因為有講到偏藍偏綠比方說我來講一個概念就是國民黨貴黨都還有很多海外的黨部\n那這些黨部也都有成立一些社團所以這些就非常清楚它叫做偏藍嘛那有沒有什麼比較偏綠的偏綠的當然也有就比方說FAPA大家知道的公共人事務協會這叫台派嘛所以是由民進黨去組成的不是它不是不不不FAPA比民進黨更早他們是在美國登記的僑團跟民進黨也沒有關係那像同鄉會已經50年了比我們民進黨更早我們民進黨來講是幾歲\n因為過去僑胞在對於我們尤其像抗日期間其實他不管捐錢捐住設立學校捐飛機捐很多很多的資源所以我現在要講的是如果你今天僑委會都已經先分了藍分了綠那你在內部已經做出這樣的一個差別的一個判定\n那你認為其他的他們應該要怎麼做因為社團就社團 比如說獅子會裡面會有藍有綠啊那你久了以後其實你還可以去拉他們然後你可以讓他們有一個共同的終止目標是什麼所以我現在要特別提醒的是你在內部已經做了藍綠的分別\n沒有我是做事實陳述我沒有做分別陳述是你說的那你既然是已經做這樣的陳述就是說這個都是傳統的分別出來了你已經把它分別出來了那以前它既然是偏藍或偏綠有很多為什麼它要拉攏甚至你說對岸已經在拉攏比較輕綠的了\n所以其實如果在內部我剛剛聽說講完我們現在擔心的部分如果你在內部先分了敵我或者先分了藍綠或者先做一個區隔有時候我們要讓他們團結\n會更困難尤其僑委會更不應該這樣做他從過去因為過去的年代他是什麼樣的一個政治背景比如說那時候就是只有國民黨在執政所以那時候的成立或者更早的時候他們為台灣在付出的時候他們也沒有分哪一個政黨就是說他回到台灣的時候他還是希望我們的教育資源不足我們就提供教育資源各方面我們會提供那你應該如果僑委會的一個\n重要的一個存在的價值它就是讓我們所有的可能跟我們有鏈結的這樣子的一個僑胞、僑民、僑社它都可以對我們認同這在國際上是很重要的所以就這個部分我們還是希望邱委會其實自己把分寸可以拿捏得更好\n我簡單回應一下事實上這兩三年我在海外辦各種僑務座談的時候藍的也有綠的也有我所謂藍的也有綠的也有是代表說台灣是一個多元政黨民主社會所以我常常跟所有的僑民說你支持哪一個政黨都沒有關係我們只有一個共同的信念就是我們是\n支持中華民國台灣這個概念所以同樣的這樣子我對僑團也是持同樣的態度我不會因為他的政治立場是什麼而去給他差別待遇但是我必須說中共是會區分的做法是這個我們觀察到的現象所以觀察到現象我們要自己去想我們策略上要怎麼因應而已\n但是在立場上我並沒有說今天他是政黨立場不一樣我就差別待遇那第二個就是說我要跟委員報告他們都是在海外的僑團那麼這些僑團我們都是輔助他而已我們沒有主導他們的委員長您說的我知道\n這對我們台灣來說 我們要團結最多的力量嘛我要講的是 當你要補助社團的時候你把那個補助的公式的內容再提供給門市\n另外因為今天時間的關係我們沒有辦法問到因為天下雜誌有做了一個專章在討論我們的學生不管是教育部還是我們僑委會主辦的這樣子的部分它的標題其實讓人家看了非常難過\n他說想做工就去台灣念書產學專班讓台灣淪為偽留學天堂這個基本上是一個偽專天中介剝削僑生的產業鏈\n委員長你不用先否認 也不用去 因為其實你的計算方式也是錯的就像我們在說那個國防部好了 他們在委員他們把我們沒有講的話寫出來 這些事情是塞在我們的嘴巴裡面我一定會抗議的 而且我已經去函跟他們講\n因為這個雜誌已經出現了已經讓大家看到了如果要說明我們未來會有時間我現在要特別先提出來我們自己去理解的也有這樣的狀況你去了解看看我們對這些學生是不是夠好因為過去我們有很多的透過\n教育部或者我們僑委會不管海青班也好或者過去的僑生也好我們訓練了非常多的優秀的人才而且在台灣創立了非常成功的企業因為那個就叫培養人才剛剛你們計算的公式你說七成然後天下雜誌說三成我們姑且不論他的那個分母分子的計算資料就像國防部我剛剛提到的如果你救你的木兵他達到百分之一百以上\n可是他的就是他後來離開的更高所以我們的邊線比一直嚴重不足或者其他的人員不足是因為這樣你不能說他來註冊了可是他流失了你沒有去計算今天時間的關係這個問題是我們僑委會花了很多的錢編了更多的預算尤其這兩年我們希望他做到的是讓國際認同不要讓人家覺得我們是剝削\n如果來了都是幫我們台灣的廠商解決他們的缺工問題或者幫學校快要倒了讓他有學生數這都是不對的我們希望有時間如果再安排我們會深入討論我認同委員的理念基本上我也是這樣的看法好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.009 --> 00:03.972\n謝謝主席麻煩請委員長馬偉你好委員長好委員長因為剛剛有聽到我們在詢答的過程那委員長有特別提到說在某一些國家他可能是單一國籍的部分那像剛剛面臨的那樣的困難有哪一些國家請喬爾惠再提供給本席好不好好\n\n00:30.390 --> 00:32.892\n另外我們先討論今天我們在報告裡面看到的就是我們有特別提到中國大陸在運用春節活動去展開一些文化統戰的這樣的一個作為\n\n00:44.926 --> 00:50.209\n那他會送一些小物啊或者運用人情牌去拜會我們的僑社這個也影響到了我們海外僑民對我們的向心力那既然僑委會已經發現到對岸是利用節慶對華僑實施這樣的文化滲透的統戰\n\n01:02.577 --> 01:06.240\n那來籠絡我們的僑民的心那這個部分請問僑委會在傳統節慶比如說像今年我們在春節的時候我們在不同的區域有做了哪些活動辦了什麼樣的或做什麼來增進僑界跟僑社團體對台灣的鏈結可不可以舉幾個例子\n\n01:25.798 --> 01:43.497\n跟委員報告通常在農曆年節的時候他們都會有一些叫做新春的餐敘或者是新春團拜的活動那一般來講只要他有跟我們申請要辦這些活動我們多少都會給你所以我們沒有主動辦任何的活動或做什麼事\n\n01:46.300 --> 01:53.125\n有一些是僑團我們都是因應僑團才來做這些動作那因為每一個僑團如果我們主動辦的時候不見得僑團大家會一起來參加所以我們都是尊重個別僑團在舉辦但是如果非農曆春節而是元旦這種我們就會統一辦升旗活動所以春節我們辦了什麼?春節我們沒有主動辦春節都是配合因為大家時間會不一致\n\n02:13.399 --> 02:15.542\n委員長我剛剛已經提到就是我們自己僑委會其實也發現到了就是說它對岸的做法我們是提供聽我講完它似乎是有達到那個效果\n\n02:28.319 --> 02:31.961\n我們也知道他送東西然後可能去拜會然後發個紅包那可能我們是做不到嗎或者像這樣他們就有效那為什麼我們不做因為有很多華僑也反映說我們在辦這些活動的時候有時候那種儀式性\n\n02:45.948 --> 02:51.433\n還有它的重複性太高就大家都一樣所以一點興趣都沒有那所以也引不起大家參與的這樣的一個興趣所以如果說他們的做法是有效的而我們卻沒有其他的個別或者我們一個突破性的做法那只會讓我們的人一直流失所以這個部分我想僑委會可以主動去做一些事情\n\n03:09.147 --> 03:19.376\n因為既然你都已經發現對岸的做法是有效的那我們怎麼可以讓我們的人一直流失或者一直被拉攏就這個部分我覺得沒有什麼被動或主動或是配合或者只是補助主要是傳統橋社剛剛講那個拉攏都是傳統橋社為主那部分的是說他們辦的春節活動想要邀我們台橋社團但基本上我們台橋社團都沒有去參加\n\n03:36.051 --> 03:41.958\n那他們也都會回報給我們所以這是兩個不同的僑團性質我剛剛已經講很清楚過去例行性的我們那個無所謂可是當你已經發現委員我們沒有辦法有那麼多預算去跟他做某種的加碼我當然是用其他的方式來繼續的\n\n03:54.392 --> 03:57.515\n我們以前您大概也是有選舉過我們當然在看資源或各方面的條件的時候我們不見得都是資源最充裕的一方可是要怎麼樣讓大家認同或者怎麼樣去拉攏這是我們要去做的今天不是錢多少的問題那裡永遠都輸他\n\n04:16.069 --> 04:20.793\n所以不要拿這個理由來說我們這個不能做那個不能做我剛剛已經提到了如果因為他送那個小物看起來你也大概7萬份而已那你去拜會也不需要花什麼錢那如果這個有效為什麼我們不能做這根錢我們也有去拜會我們都會送一個禮物過去那如果這樣我們還輸人家那你必須要檢討說為什麼他容易被拉攏或者他是什麼樣的因素\n\n04:44.451 --> 04:48.897\n這個我們自己去檢討再去改善嘛好不好那另外僑委會在接受媒體採訪的時候有提到中方是採取打著綠席反綠這個部分好像是我們委員長對媒體也說到中國過去對於就是近期的發展對\n\n05:01.834 --> 05:04.795\n中國過去對於親中偏藍的這些僑社僑團其實他們會刻意拉攏那現在好像是這個比較失去寵愛了可是我想要關心的是僑委會如何去區分他到底是親中可能比較明顯那個很容易就可以看得出來那你偏藍偏綠因為偏藍偏綠對於我們補助因為有我程度\n\n05:29.684 --> 05:32.067\n對於我們的協會會的補助是有差別的那你偏藍偏綠是怎麼去分補助沒有差別但是呢有我程度嘛應該這樣講你在補助的時候我們有列一個有我有我的那種程度是有的\n\n05:45.138 --> 05:56.064\n我們有一個公式在計算所以我們是怎麼區分的怎麼區分他是偏藍偏綠我們是以他舉辦活動的內容我現在不講補助委員長我不講補助我說我們因為有講到偏藍偏綠比方說我來講一個概念就是國民黨貴黨都還有很多海外的黨部\n\n06:09.592 --> 06:19.339\n那這些黨部也都有成立一些社團所以這些就非常清楚它叫做偏藍嘛那有沒有什麼比較偏綠的偏綠的當然也有就比方說FAPA大家知道的公共人事務協會這叫台派嘛所以是由民進黨去組成的不是它不是不不不FAPA比民進黨更早他們是在美國登記的僑團跟民進黨也沒有關係那像同鄉會已經50年了比我們民進黨更早我們民進黨來講是幾歲\n\n06:39.053 --> 06:41.214\n因為過去僑胞在對於我們尤其像抗日期間其實他不管捐錢捐住設立學校捐飛機捐很多很多的資源所以我現在要講的是如果你今天僑委會都已經先分了藍分了綠那你在內部已經做出這樣的一個差別的一個判定\n\n07:08.746 --> 07:14.231\n那你認為其他的他們應該要怎麼做因為社團就社團比如說獅子會裡面會有藍有綠啊那你久了以後其實你還可以去拉他們然後你可以讓他們有一個共同的終止目標是什麼所以我現在要特別提醒的是你在內部已經做了藍綠的分別\n\n07:32.828 --> 07:37.109\n沒有我是做事實陳述我沒有做分別陳述是你說的那你既然是已經做這樣的陳述就是說這個都是傳統的分別出來了你已經把它分別出來了那以前它既然是偏藍或偏綠有很多為什麼它要拉攏甚至你說對岸已經在拉攏比較輕綠的了\n\n07:52.654 --> 07:55.157\n所以其實如果在內部我剛剛聽說講完我們現在擔心的部分如果你在內部先分了敵我或者先分了藍綠或者先做一個區隔有時候我們要讓他們團結\n\n08:08.590 --> 08:13.874\n會更困難尤其僑委會更不應該這樣做他從過去因為過去的年代他是什麼樣的一個政治背景比如說那時候就是只有國民黨在執政所以那時候的成立或者更早的時候他們為台灣在付出的時候他們也沒有分哪一個政黨就是說他回到台灣的時候他還是希望我們的教育資源不足我們就提供教育資源各方面我們會提供那你應該如果僑委會的一個\n\n08:38.391 --> 08:43.695\n重要的一個存在的價值它就是讓我們所有的可能跟我們有鏈結的這樣子的一個僑胞、僑民、僑社它都可以對我們認同這在國際上是很重要的所以就這個部分我們還是希望邱委會其實自己把分寸可以拿捏得更好\n\n09:03.168 --> 09:22.766\n我簡單回應一下事實上這兩三年我在海外辦各種僑務座談的時候藍的也有綠的也有我所謂藍的也有綠的也有是代表說台灣是一個多元政黨民主社會所以我常常跟所有的僑民說你支持哪一個政黨都沒有關係我們只有一個共同的信念就是我們是\n\n09:23.647 --> 09:29.653\n支持中華民國台灣這個概念所以同樣的這樣子我對僑團也是持同樣的態度我不會因為他的政治立場是什麼而去給他差別待遇但是我必須說中共是會區分的做法是這個我們觀察到的現象所以觀察到現象我們要自己去想我們策略上要怎麼因應而已\n\n09:45.407 --> 09:49.513\n但是在立場上我並沒有說今天他是政黨立場不一樣我就差別待遇那第二個就是說我要跟委員報告他們都是在海外的僑團那麼這些僑團我們都是輔助他而已我們沒有主導他們的委員長您說的我知道\n\n10:01.089 --> 10:03.150\n這對我們台灣來說我們要團結最多的力量嘛我要講的是當你要補助社團的時候你把那個補助的公式的內容再提供給門市\n\n10:21.321 --> 10:24.524\n另外因為今天時間的關係我們沒有辦法問到因為天下雜誌有做了一個專章在討論我們的學生不管是教育部還是我們僑委會主辦的這樣子的部分它的標題其實讓人家看了非常難過\n\n10:41.457 --> 10:44.298\n他說想做工就去台灣念書產學專班讓台灣淪為偽留學天堂這個基本上是一個偽專天中介剝削僑生的產業鏈\n\n10:52.196 --> 10:56.578\n委員長你不用先否認也不用去因為其實你的計算方式也是錯的就像我們在說那個國防部好了他們在委員他們把我們沒有講的話寫出來這些事情是塞在我們的嘴巴裡面我一定會抗議的而且我已經去函跟他們講\n\n11:16.247 --> 11:18.850\n因為這個雜誌已經出現了已經讓大家看到了如果要說明我們未來會有時間我現在要特別先提出來我們自己去理解的也有這樣的狀況你去了解看看我們對這些學生是不是夠好因為過去我們有很多的透過\n\n11:34.384 --> 11:41.205\n教育部或者我們僑委會不管海青班也好或者過去的僑生也好我們訓練了非常多的優秀的人才而且在台灣創立了非常成功的企業因為那個就叫培養人才剛剛你們計算的公式你說七成然後天下雜誌說三成我們姑且不論他的那個分母分子的計算資料就像國防部我剛剛提到的如果你救你的木兵他達到百分之一百以上\n\n12:04.170 --> 12:10.331\n可是他的就是他後來離開的更高所以我們的邊線比一直嚴重不足或者其他的人員不足是因為這樣你不能說他來註冊了可是他流失了你沒有去計算今天時間的關係這個問題是我們僑委會花了很多的錢編了更多的預算尤其這兩年我們希望他做到的是讓國際認同不要讓人家覺得我們是剝削\n\n12:32.156 --> 12:35.418\n如果來了都是幫我們台灣的廠商解決他們的缺工問題或者幫學校快要倒了讓他有學生數這都是不對的我們希望有時間如果再安排我們會深入討論我認同委員的理念基本上我也是這樣的看法好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.009,"end":3.972,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請委員長馬偉你好委員長好委員長因為剛剛有聽到我們在詢答的過程那委員長有特別提到說在某一些國家他可能是單一國籍的部分那像剛剛面臨的那樣的困難有哪一些國家請喬爾惠再提供給本席好不好好"},{"start":30.39,"end":32.892,"text":"另外我們先討論今天我們在報告裡面看到的就是我們有特別提到中國大陸在運用春節活動去展開一些文化統戰的這樣的一個作為"},{"start":44.926,"end":50.209,"text":"那他會送一些小物啊或者運用人情牌去拜會我們的僑社這個也影響到了我們海外僑民對我們的向心力那既然僑委會已經發現到對岸是利用節慶對華僑實施這樣的文化滲透的統戰"},{"start":62.577,"end":66.24,"text":"那來籠絡我們的僑民的心那這個部分請問僑委會在傳統節慶比如說像今年我們在春節的時候我們在不同的區域有做了哪些活動辦了什麼樣的或做什麼來增進僑界跟僑社團體對台灣的鏈結可不可以舉幾個例子"},{"start":85.798,"end":103.497,"text":"跟委員報告通常在農曆年節的時候他們都會有一些叫做新春的餐敘或者是新春團拜的活動那一般來講只要他有跟我們申請要辦這些活動我們多少都會給你所以我們沒有主動辦任何的活動或做什麼事"},{"start":106.3,"end":113.125,"text":"有一些是僑團我們都是因應僑團才來做這些動作那因為每一個僑團如果我們主動辦的時候不見得僑團大家會一起來參加所以我們都是尊重個別僑團在舉辦但是如果非農曆春節而是元旦這種我們就會統一辦升旗活動所以春節我們辦了什麼?春節我們沒有主動辦春節都是配合因為大家時間會不一致"},{"start":133.399,"end":135.542,"text":"委員長我剛剛已經提到就是我們自己僑委會其實也發現到了就是說它對岸的做法我們是提供聽我講完它似乎是有達到那個效果"},{"start":148.319,"end":151.961,"text":"我們也知道他送東西然後可能去拜會然後發個紅包那可能我們是做不到嗎或者像這樣他們就有效那為什麼我們不做因為有很多華僑也反映說我們在辦這些活動的時候有時候那種儀式性"},{"start":165.948,"end":171.433,"text":"還有它的重複性太高就大家都一樣所以一點興趣都沒有那所以也引不起大家參與的這樣的一個興趣所以如果說他們的做法是有效的而我們卻沒有其他的個別或者我們一個突破性的做法那只會讓我們的人一直流失所以這個部分我想僑委會可以主動去做一些事情"},{"start":189.147,"end":199.376,"text":"因為既然你都已經發現對岸的做法是有效的那我們怎麼可以讓我們的人一直流失或者一直被拉攏就這個部分我覺得沒有什麼被動或主動或是配合或者只是補助主要是傳統橋社剛剛講那個拉攏都是傳統橋社為主那部分的是說他們辦的春節活動想要邀我們台橋社團但基本上我們台橋社團都沒有去參加"},{"start":216.051,"end":221.958,"text":"那他們也都會回報給我們所以這是兩個不同的僑團性質我剛剛已經講很清楚過去例行性的我們那個無所謂可是當你已經發現委員我們沒有辦法有那麼多預算去跟他做某種的加碼我當然是用其他的方式來繼續的"},{"start":234.392,"end":237.515,"text":"我們以前您大概也是有選舉過我們當然在看資源或各方面的條件的時候我們不見得都是資源最充裕的一方可是要怎麼樣讓大家認同或者怎麼樣去拉攏這是我們要去做的今天不是錢多少的問題那裡永遠都輸他"},{"start":256.069,"end":260.793,"text":"所以不要拿這個理由來說我們這個不能做那個不能做我剛剛已經提到了如果因為他送那個小物看起來你也大概7萬份而已那你去拜會也不需要花什麼錢那如果這個有效為什麼我們不能做這根錢我們也有去拜會我們都會送一個禮物過去那如果這樣我們還輸人家那你必須要檢討說為什麼他容易被拉攏或者他是什麼樣的因素"},{"start":284.451,"end":288.897,"text":"這個我們自己去檢討再去改善嘛 好不好那另外 僑委會在接受媒體採訪的時候有提到中方是採取打著綠席反綠這個部分好像是我們委員長對媒體也說到中國過去對於就是近期的發展 對"},{"start":301.834,"end":304.795,"text":"中國過去對於親中偏藍的這些僑社僑團其實他們會刻意拉攏那現在好像是這個比較失去寵愛了可是我想要關心的是僑委會如何去區分他到底是親中可能比較明顯那個很容易就可以看得出來那你偏藍偏綠因為偏藍偏綠對於我們補助因為有我程度"},{"start":329.684,"end":332.067,"text":"對於我們的協會會的補助是有差別的那你偏藍偏綠是怎麼去分補助沒有差別但是呢有我程度嘛應該這樣講你在補助的時候我們有列一個有我有我的那種程度是有的"},{"start":345.138,"end":356.064,"text":"我們有一個公式在計算所以我們是怎麼區分的怎麼區分他是偏藍偏綠我們是以他舉辦活動的內容我現在不講補助委員長我不講補助我說我們因為有講到偏藍偏綠比方說我來講一個概念就是國民黨貴黨都還有很多海外的黨部"},{"start":369.592,"end":379.339,"text":"那這些黨部也都有成立一些社團所以這些就非常清楚它叫做偏藍嘛那有沒有什麼比較偏綠的偏綠的當然也有就比方說FAPA大家知道的公共人事務協會這叫台派嘛所以是由民進黨去組成的不是它不是不不不FAPA比民進黨更早他們是在美國登記的僑團跟民進黨也沒有關係那像同鄉會已經50年了比我們民進黨更早我們民進黨來講是幾歲"},{"start":399.053,"end":401.214,"text":"因為過去僑胞在對於我們尤其像抗日期間其實他不管捐錢捐住設立學校捐飛機捐很多很多的資源所以我現在要講的是如果你今天僑委會都已經先分了藍分了綠那你在內部已經做出這樣的一個差別的一個判定"},{"start":428.746,"end":434.231,"text":"那你認為其他的他們應該要怎麼做因為社團就社團 比如說獅子會裡面會有藍有綠啊那你久了以後其實你還可以去拉他們然後你可以讓他們有一個共同的終止目標是什麼所以我現在要特別提醒的是你在內部已經做了藍綠的分別"},{"start":452.828,"end":457.109,"text":"沒有我是做事實陳述我沒有做分別陳述是你說的那你既然是已經做這樣的陳述就是說這個都是傳統的分別出來了你已經把它分別出來了那以前它既然是偏藍或偏綠有很多為什麼它要拉攏甚至你說對岸已經在拉攏比較輕綠的了"},{"start":472.654,"end":475.157,"text":"所以其實如果在內部我剛剛聽說講完我們現在擔心的部分如果你在內部先分了敵我或者先分了藍綠或者先做一個區隔有時候我們要讓他們團結"},{"start":488.59,"end":493.874,"text":"會更困難尤其僑委會更不應該這樣做他從過去因為過去的年代他是什麼樣的一個政治背景比如說那時候就是只有國民黨在執政所以那時候的成立或者更早的時候他們為台灣在付出的時候他們也沒有分哪一個政黨就是說他回到台灣的時候他還是希望我們的教育資源不足我們就提供教育資源各方面我們會提供那你應該如果僑委會的一個"},{"start":518.391,"end":523.695,"text":"重要的一個存在的價值它就是讓我們所有的可能跟我們有鏈結的這樣子的一個僑胞、僑民、僑社它都可以對我們認同這在國際上是很重要的所以就這個部分我們還是希望邱委會其實自己把分寸可以拿捏得更好"},{"start":543.168,"end":562.766,"text":"我簡單回應一下事實上這兩三年我在海外辦各種僑務座談的時候藍的也有綠的也有我所謂藍的也有綠的也有是代表說台灣是一個多元政黨民主社會所以我常常跟所有的僑民說你支持哪一個政黨都沒有關係我們只有一個共同的信念就是我們是"},{"start":563.647,"end":569.653,"text":"支持中華民國台灣這個概念所以同樣的這樣子我對僑團也是持同樣的態度我不會因為他的政治立場是什麼而去給他差別待遇但是我必須說中共是會區分的做法是這個我們觀察到的現象所以觀察到現象我們要自己去想我們策略上要怎麼因應而已"},{"start":585.407,"end":589.513,"text":"但是在立場上我並沒有說今天他是政黨立場不一樣我就差別待遇那第二個就是說我要跟委員報告他們都是在海外的僑團那麼這些僑團我們都是輔助他而已我們沒有主導他們的委員長您說的我知道"},{"start":601.089,"end":603.15,"text":"這對我們台灣來說 我們要團結最多的力量嘛我要講的是 當你要補助社團的時候你把那個補助的公式的內容再提供給門市"},{"start":621.321,"end":624.524,"text":"另外因為今天時間的關係我們沒有辦法問到因為天下雜誌有做了一個專章在討論我們的學生不管是教育部還是我們僑委會主辦的這樣子的部分它的標題其實讓人家看了非常難過"},{"start":641.457,"end":644.298,"text":"他說想做工就去台灣念書產學專班讓台灣淪為偽留學天堂這個基本上是一個偽專天中介剝削僑生的產業鏈"},{"start":652.196,"end":656.578,"text":"委員長你不用先否認 也不用去 因為其實你的計算方式也是錯的就像我們在說那個國防部好了 他們在委員他們把我們沒有講的話寫出來 這些事情是塞在我們的嘴巴裡面我一定會抗議的 而且我已經去函跟他們講"},{"start":676.247,"end":678.85,"text":"因為這個雜誌已經出現了已經讓大家看到了如果要說明我們未來會有時間我現在要特別先提出來我們自己去理解的也有這樣的狀況你去了解看看我們對這些學生是不是夠好因為過去我們有很多的透過"},{"start":694.384,"end":701.205,"text":"教育部或者我們僑委會不管海青班也好或者過去的僑生也好我們訓練了非常多的優秀的人才而且在台灣創立了非常成功的企業因為那個就叫培養人才剛剛你們計算的公式你說七成然後天下雜誌說三成我們姑且不論他的那個分母分子的計算資料就像國防部我剛剛提到的如果你救你的木兵他達到百分之一百以上"},{"start":724.17,"end":730.331,"text":"可是他的就是他後來離開的更高所以我們的邊線比一直嚴重不足或者其他的人員不足是因為這樣你不能說他來註冊了可是他流失了你沒有去計算今天時間的關係這個問題是我們僑委會花了很多的錢編了更多的預算尤其這兩年我們希望他做到的是讓國際認同不要讓人家覺得我們是剝削"},{"start":752.156,"end":755.418,"text":"如果來了都是幫我們台灣的廠商解決他們的缺工問題或者幫學校快要倒了讓他有學生數這都是不對的我們希望有時間如果再安排我們會深入討論我認同委員的理念基本上我也是這樣的看法好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":714,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（11時12分）謝謝主席，麻煩請委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：馬委員你好。"],["馬委員文君：委員長好。剛剛聽到在詢答的過程，委員長特別提到，在某一些國家他可能是單一國籍的部分，像剛剛提到面臨那樣困難的有哪一些國家，請僑委會再提供給本席，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：好。"],["馬委員文君：另外，我們先討論今天我們在報告裡面看到，你特別提到中國大陸有運用春節活動展開一些文化統戰的作為，他會送一些小物或者運用人情牌去拜會我們的僑社，這也影響到海外僑民對我們的向心力。既然僑委會已經發現對岸利用節慶對華僑實施文化滲透的統戰，攏絡我們僑民的心，那麼這個部分請問僑委會在傳統節慶，比如像今年春節我們在不同的區域做了哪些活動、辦了什麼樣的活動或做了什麼，以增進僑界和僑社團體對臺灣的鏈結？可不可以舉幾個例子？"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，通常在農曆年節的時候，他們也都會有一些叫做新春餐敘或者是新春團拜的活動，一般來講，只要他有跟我們申請要辦這些活動，我們多少都會給予……"],["馬委員文君：所以我們沒有主動辦任何的活動或做什麼事？"],["徐委員長佳青：有一些是僑團，我們都是因應僑團才做這些動作，因為每一個僑團，如果我們主動辦的時候，不見得僑團大家會一起來參加，所以我們都是尊重個別僑團舉辦；但如果非農曆春節而是元旦，這種我們就會統一辦與升旗活動相關的。"],["馬委員文君：所以春節我們辦了什麼？因為他們春節都會辦。"],["徐委員長佳青：春節我們沒有主動辦，春節都是配合，因為大家時間會不一致。"],["馬委員文君：委員長，我剛剛已經提到，就是我們自己僑委會其實也發現到了，對岸的作法……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，我們是提供……"],["馬委員文君：聽我講完。他似乎有達到那個效果，我們也知道他送東西、可能去拜會，然後發個紅包，那我們做不到嗎？或者他們這樣做就有效，那為什麼我們不做？因為有很多華僑也反映我們在辦這些活動的時候，有時候那種儀式性還有重複性太高，就是大家都一樣，所以一點興趣都沒有，也引不起大家參與的興趣。如果他們的作法是有效的，而我們卻沒有其他個別或者突破性的作法，只會讓我們的人一直流失。這個部分我想僑委會可以主動去做一些事情，既然你都已經發現對岸的作法是有效的，怎麼可以讓我們的人一直流失或者被拉攏？就這個部分，有沒有什麼被動或主動還是配合的作法？或者只是補助？"],["徐委員長佳青：是，主要是傳統僑社，剛剛講那個拉攏都是以傳統僑社為主，部分是他們辦的春節活動想要邀我們臺僑社團，但基本上我們臺僑社團都沒有去參加，他們也都會回報給我們，所以這是兩個不同的僑團性質。"],["馬委員文君：委員長，我剛剛已經講得很清楚……"],["徐委員長佳青：那我們有給……"],["馬委員文君：過去例行性的那個無所謂，可是當你已經發現……拉攏……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，我們沒辦法有那麼多預算去跟他做某種加碼，我當然是用其他的方式繼續穩固。"],["馬委員文君：委員長，以前您大概也有選舉過嘛！當然在看資源或各方面條件的時候，我們不見得都是資源最充裕的一方。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["馬委員文君：可是要怎麼樣讓大家認同或者怎麼樣拉攏，這是我們要去做的，今天不是錢多少的問題，那你永遠都輸他。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["馬委員文君：所以不要拿這個理由來說我們這個不能做、那個不能做。我剛剛已經提到，因為他送的那個小物看起來也大概7萬份而已，你去拜會也不需要花什麼錢，如果這個有效，為什麼我們不能做？這跟錢沒有關係。"],["徐委員長佳青：有，我們也有去拜會，我們都會送一個禮物過去。"],["馬委員文君：如果這樣我們還輸人家，那你必須要檢討為什麼他容易被拉攏或者是什麼樣的因素，這個我們自己檢討再去改善，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["馬委員文君：另外，僑委會在接受媒體採訪時提到，中方是採取打著綠旗反綠旗的方法，這個部分好像委員長對媒體也說，中國過去對於……"],["徐委員長佳青：這是近期的發展。"],["馬委員文君：中國過去對於親中偏藍的這些僑社、僑團，其實他們會刻意拉攏，現在這個好像比較失去寵愛了。可是我想要關心的是，僑委會如何去區分它到底是……親中可能比較明顯，那個很容易就可以看得出來；而偏藍偏綠，因為偏藍偏綠對於我們補助上，友我程度對於僑委會的補助而言是有差別的，那你偏藍、偏綠是怎麼區分？"],["徐委員長佳青：補助沒有差別，但是……"],["馬委員文君：友我程度嘛！"],["徐委員長佳青：應該這樣講……"],["馬委員文君：你在補助的時候，我們有列一個友我的那種程度，是有的。"],["徐委員長佳青：我們有一個公式在計算，就是它的規模……"],["馬委員文君：對，所以你們是怎麼區分的？怎麼區分它是偏藍、偏綠，因為你提到……"],["徐委員長佳青：不是，我們是以它舉辦活動的內容……"],["馬委員文君：我現在不講補助，我說因為有講到偏藍、偏綠……"],["徐委員長佳青：比方我講一個概念，就是國民黨、貴黨都還有很多海外的黨部，這些黨部也都有成立一些社團，所以這些就非常清楚叫做偏藍。"],["馬委員文君：有沒有什麼比較偏綠的？"],["徐委員長佳青：偏綠的當然也有，比方FAPA，大家知道的這個公共事務協會，這叫臺派。"],["馬委員文君：所以是由民進黨組成的……"],["徐委員長佳青：不是，它不是，FAPA比民進黨更早，他們是在美國登記的僑團，跟民進黨也沒有關係；而像同鄉會已經五十年了，比我們民進黨更早，民進黨才三十幾歲。"],["馬委員文君：那僑委會因為過去……"],["徐委員長佳青：所以我們稱它為臺派社團。"],["馬委員文君：過去僑胞對於我們，尤其像抗日期間，其實它不管捐錢、捐助設立學校、捐飛機、捐很多很多的資源……"],["徐委員長佳青：是，這個都是很多華僑總會。"],["馬委員文君：所以我現在要講的是，如果今天僑委會都已經先分了藍、分了綠，你在內部已經做出這樣一個差別的判定……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，我們補助並沒有在分……"],["馬委員文君：那你認為其他的他們應該要怎麼做？因為社團就是社團，比如獅子會裡面也會有藍有綠，久了以後其實你還可以去拉他們，然後你可以讓他們有一個共同的宗旨目標是什麼……"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["馬委員文君：所以我現在要特別提醒，你在內部已經做了藍綠的分別，有的時候……"],["徐委員長佳青：沒有，委員，我是做事實陳述，我沒有做分別。"],["馬委員文君：沒有，陳述是你說的，你既然已經做這樣的陳述，就是說……"],["徐委員長佳青：這個都是傳統的分……"],["馬委員文君：把它分別出來了，你已經把它分別出來了。以前它既然是偏藍或偏綠，也有很多，為什麼它要拉攏？甚至你說對岸已經在拉攏比較親綠的了，所以其實如果在內部……"],["徐委員長佳青：其實與其說是對岸在幫我們……"],["馬委員文君：你聽我講完我們現在擔心的部分，如果你在內部先分了敵我或者先分了藍綠，或者先做一個區隔，有時候我們要讓他們團結會更困難，尤其僑委會更不應該這樣做。因為過去的年代是什麼樣的政治背景，比如那時候就是只有國民黨在執政，所以那時候成立或者更早的時候，他們為臺灣付出時也沒有分哪一個政黨，他回到臺灣的時候還是希望，教育資源不足我們就提供教育資源、各方面我們會提供，而僑委會重要的存在價值就是讓所有可能跟我們有鏈結的僑胞、僑民、僑社都可以對我們認同，這在國際上是很重要的。所以就這個部分，我們還是希望僑委會自己可以把分寸拿捏得更好。"],["徐委員長佳青：委員可以給我回應一下嗎？"],["馬委員文君：好。"],["徐委員長佳青：我簡單回應，事實上這兩、三年我在海外辦各種僑務座談的時候，藍的也有，綠的也有，我所謂藍的也有，綠的也有，代表臺灣是一個多元政黨的民主社會，所以我常常跟所有的僑民說，你支持哪一個政黨都沒有關係，我們只有一個共同的信念，就是我們支持中華民國臺灣這個概念，我對僑團也是持同樣的態度，我不會因他的政治立場是什麼而給他差別待遇。但我必須說，中共會區分的作法是我們觀察到的現象，所以觀察到現象，我們要自己去想策略上要怎麼因應而已，但在立場上，委員，我並沒有說今天他的政黨立場不一樣我就差別待遇。","第二個我要跟委員報告，他們都是在海外的僑團，這些僑團我們都是輔助他而已，我們沒有主導他們的……"],["馬委員文君：你說的我知道，我就說這對臺灣來說，我們都……"],["徐委員長佳青：我們要團結最多的力量。"],["馬委員文君：我要講的是，當你要補助社團的時候，你不會……"],["徐委員長佳青：不會，我們沒有……"],["馬委員文君：你的公式……"],["徐委員長佳青：我們不會用立場……"],["馬委員文君：你聽我講完，主席站起來了，你把那個補助公式的內容再提供給本席。"],["徐委員長佳青：好的。"],["馬委員文君：另外因為今天時間的關係，我們沒有辦法問到，天下雜誌做了一個專章在討論我們的學生，不管是教育部還是僑委會主辦的部分，他的標題其實讓人家看了非常難過，他說想做工就去臺灣念書，產學專班讓臺灣淪為偽留學天堂……"],["徐委員長佳青：這個基本上是個偽專題。"],["馬委員文君：仲介剝削僑生的產業鏈。委員長不用先否認，也不用去……"],["徐委員長佳青：事實上裡面的資料錯誤百出。"],["馬委員文君：其實你的計算方式也是錯的，就像我們在說國防部好了，他們在……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，他們把我們沒有講的話寫出來，這些事情塞在我們的嘴巴裡面，我一定會抗議的。"],["馬委員文君：聽我講完。"],["徐委員長佳青：而且我已經去函跟他們講了。"],["馬委員文君：委員長聽我講完！因為這個雜誌已經出現了、已經讓大家看到了，如果要說明我們未來會有時間，我現在要特別先提出來，我們自己理解的也有這樣的狀況，你去了解看看我們對這些學生是不是夠好，因為過去我們有很多透過教育部或者僑委會，不管海青班也好，或者過去的僑生也好，我們訓練了非常多優秀的人才，而且在臺灣創立了非常成功的企業，那個就叫培養人才。剛剛你們計算的公式，你說七成，然後天下雜誌說三成，我們姑且不論它的分母、分子的計算資料，就像國防部，我剛剛提到，如果就募兵，達到百分之百以上耶！可是後來離開的更高，所以我們的編現比一直嚴重不足或者其他的人員不足是因為這樣，你不能說他來註冊了，可是後來流失的部分你沒有計算。這個問題僑委會花了很多錢、編了更多的預算，尤其這兩年，我們希望做到的是讓國際認同，不要讓人家覺得我們是剝削，如果來了都是幫我們臺灣廠商解決他們的缺工問題，或者幫快要倒的學校有學生數，這都是不對的。我們希望有時間，如果再安排我們可以深入討論。"],["徐委員長佳青：好。我認同委員的理念，基本上我也是這樣的看法。謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：希望我們把它做好。"],["徐委員長佳青：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬委員，謝謝委員長。","已登記質詢委員除不在場者外均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。","本日委員會口頭質詢未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，請相關單位以書面提供，就看跟各委員的約定。","本日會議到此結束，散會。","散會（11時26分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-3","speakers":["沈伯洋","徐巧芯","羅美玲","陳俊宇","王定宇","黃仁","林楚茵","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","林憶君","張啓楷","黃國昌","馬文君"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00013"}}}