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00:00:27,264\n好謝謝主席內政部部長有請請劉順寬部長好莊委好劉部長辛苦了這個今年2月25號我們這個吳世耀委員在大院提出總質詢的時候其實曾經有詢問過您也有詢問過我們卓榮泰院長是否要針對國定假日的這個法案提出修法的對岸的一個版本還是說請向透過行政命令的方式來處理\n\n2\n00:00:28,445 --> 00:00:42,735\n部長那時候的回答是說希望可以維持現狀因為各委員會的版本這剛剛其實都說過了有不同的意見有待整合勞基法修法後的公實已經齊平等等法案的推動要有共識說法也不一樣如果變成法律案會有爭議那當然嘛經過這個雖然喔\n\n3\n00:00:47,096 --> 00:01:16,162\n已經也沒有多久但也經過了一段時間到現在快一個月了請問部長態度有改變嗎你今天還是用一樣的說法來回應大家的我今天的報告就講得非常的清楚我覺得爭議仍然很大但是裡面有一塊我剛剛提到了第一個目的失業主管機關也就是說大家比較在乎的所謂的要不要勞動節那一天全國放假這個議題分成兩個層次第一個在我們的節日的實施辦法裡面勞動節那一天勞動者就是放假\n\n4\n00:01:17,142 --> 00:01:44,839\n不是勞動者也就是說廣泛來講沒有領到沒有用勞保的這些軍公教的人要不要跟著一起放假但是我提到了如果要一起放假的話要有共識這個共識就是要跟人事行政總處大家來交換意見所以院長在聽到我們報告的時候特別提到我們保持開放的態度看用什麼方式來解決但是因為剛剛可能有幾位委員有提到過今年的放假日在去年年底的時候已經公布了\n\n5\n00:01:45,219 --> 00:02:03,997\n包括補班日大家也都執行了像今年的春節就是這樣子那明年的話我們還有一段時間我希望說可以讓它可以和緩大家會有共識出來然後不要變成是朝野對立或是政黨對立的議題所以目前我在回答委員的問題的時候幾乎都是站在這樣的立場做回應我覺得時間有限\n\n6\n00:02:07,260 --> 00:02:25,474\n這個你說不希望這樣子的題目變成朝野的對立也不希望變成政治性的題目這一點本席敬表尊重其實也表達同意但其實在行訴共識的過程之中總要有各個不同的版本來做討論嘛不瞞不長講啦這個在野黨提案的委員數量雖然多但在野黨當然也會做所謂的法案整合嘛\n\n7\n00:02:25,914 --> 00:02:36,141\n所以到進入大體討論甚至到主條討論之前它的版本當然就會再做精簡但是我要問既然我們今天要追尋的是盡量求這件事情的圓滿那麼請問執政黨這一端它會不會有版本這個其實是大家很關心的問題\n\n8\n00:02:41,844 --> 00:02:59,120\n之前曾經有媒體有報導說可能行政院會有所謂的院版請問到底有沒有這樣的規劃因為就我本席了解這個勞團前一陣子也到行政院去陳情嘛所以希望看到有院版的這樣一個機會那如果院版的內容當然就由內政部來做主責嘛你會不會增加放假的天數還是說從頭到尾現在就是沒有院版\n\n9\n00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:20,700\n我們總之要把這件事情釐清一下如果有院版我們早就提供出來給委員參考了也就是說行政院在內部考量的時候呢他變成是所有的部會都要提供他們的意見那院長呢還是保持開放的態度因為我們都知道說這裡面呢除了特定的特殊身份的族群以外還有一些是屬於世代的差距\n\n10\n00:03:21,821 --> 00:03:38,494\n所謂的世代差距的話譬如說年紀比較大的覺得說何必放假那年紀比較輕的就是趕快放假包括228我們是紀念日也把它當成是慶祝228所以事實上就會有點沒有辦法有一個共識出來所以你的意思就是不會有認版也不會提\n\n11\n00:03:38,834 --> 00:04:06,538\n目前為止沒有院版但是我們也就是我們希望維持現狀啦維持現在的實施辦法也就是維持現在的實施辦法剛剛部長喔在講實施辦法的時候當然就是說速度比較快比較有彈性對不對不過我也要提醒部長一個比較殘酷的事實啦我們今天站在這邊當然是要幫勞工朋友講話嘛就是說節日與紀念日的這個實施辦法在以行政命令的層級由行政機關來主管的情況下就本席的了解從來沒有幫勞工增加假日啦砍掉倒是速度挺快的但是都沒有增加嘛\n\n12\n00:04:06,769 --> 00:04:32,748\n抱歉這個不是在節日實施辦法裡面這樣做的我們節日實施辦法勞動節本來就是一個我不是講勞動節我講就是國定假日的天數嘛你現在是不是行政命令可以處理如果今天我們的政府非常有誠意而且很快願意還給勞工七天假你今天行政命令一下去七天假就還來了嘛我還是一再跟各位委員報告沒有所謂的還我勞工七天假這樣的議題至少在行政部門裡面從來不會出現還我勞工七天假因為這是一個政治議題\n\n13\n00:04:34,249 --> 00:04:53,302\n我們不希望說用這個朝野對峙的方式來處理有關勞工放假的議題這不是朝野的問題啦還勞工七天假其實是勞工團體跟很多勞工朋友期待的那個我尊重但是不是行政院的主張我們回到法理上面來講是不是現在透過行政命令的方式你其實就可以增加國定假日的天數其實是對不對\n\n14\n00:04:54,062 --> 00:05:11,922\n但是過去這段時間不一定你又有理由又有意義啊你要紀念什麼你什麼樣的紀念日什麼樣的節日你要講清楚你不能隨便一個你講的是理由對不對你不能隨便一個拜拜隨便一個初一十五就要放假啊我只是要釐清一個事實就是你在有這樣的權限的情況之下基於你的各種理由反正就是沒有增加\n\n15\n00:05:12,703 --> 00:05:27,712\n我們的權限沒有委員所提到的那麼大我們的權限送到行政院去的時候要有很多不同的部會包括人事行政總部甚至包括權序部都要提供給我們意見我們才能把它放下去所以其實政府部門的彈性其實也沒有想像中那麼大\n\n16\n00:05:28,072 --> 00:05:44,575\n所以如果民間尤其是民意調查的數字已經顯示有超過六成的人非常希望增加國定價值的天數真正不贊成增加天數的人大概只有不到百分之二十那在這樣子的一個主流民意的驅動下行政機關還是寸步難行那我只好透過立法院修法的方式來處理\n\n17\n00:05:45,576 --> 00:06:13,317\n報告委員民意調查的部分如果民意調查認為說七成以上的人希望我們的租金補助不要刪除但是我們在立法院裡面還是被刪跟凍啦那我覺得也非常遺憾部長第一個你的預算附議案沒有辦法過關的時候我是沒有辦法處理解凍案的第二個凍結跟刪除好像不太一樣你做過立法委員這我們就不多講不要岔開話題部長你一直講說要凝聚共識對不對針對國定價值的天數也好或者是一些內容跟意涵也好請問從去年啊\n\n18\n00:06:14,037 --> 00:06:33,264\n這個我們的公聽會到了現在內政部有沒有針對各部會也好或行政院這個平台收集了哪些意見開過幾次會什麼層級參加有沒有初步的共識或方向聽起來是沒有有嗎報告委員應該是這樣子就是院長在很多這個大小的會議裡面如果有人是行政總處或者是勞動部的時候都會提到這個問題\n\n19\n00:06:34,344 --> 00:06:41,289\n但是我們在滾動式的調整當中會認為說現在這樣的時間還沒有成熟或是說現在這個時間還沒有共識你居然對外講的話並不是一個好的現象反而會置私欲焚所以我們寧可讓他再長一點的時間來做討論讓他有共識但是我剛有提到我們不希望變成是在野黨或者是執政黨之間的一個政黨的紛爭然後讓他可以好好的落幕\n\n20\n00:07:02,502 --> 00:07:23,563\n部長不希望這個事情再變成政治吵架的一個題目但是我也要如實反映勞工的心聲勞工的心聲都不希望這件事情再只是不管是藍也好綠也好白也好政治人物在選舉時候的承諾但選後沒有任何作為本期今天會去排審這樣的一個法案因為現在之後執行適用的期間是明年不是今年啊所以我們剛剛有提到適用的期間在法條上是可以規定的啊\n\n21\n00:07:23,683 --> 00:07:52,592\n今年的人事行政總署在去年年底的時候已經對外宣告多少放假日還有補班日那是因為現在的所以現在如果這個法律案通過的話不能夠馬上適用你看你行政命令的時候你想執行的事情你就執行的很愉快但是我們想要增加假日的時候你就裹住沒有按照行政程序我們是按照行政程序法來執行所有的相關規定你要回答我的問題就是剛剛很多委員都講說我們要有我們要有社會共識請問你覺得到什麼樣的程度叫做社會有共識\n\n22\n00:07:55,963 --> 00:08:19,531\n這個放假的這件事情不曉得委員所提的是哪一項沒有就放假比如說天數也好或是哪幾天要放假到底什麼樣的程度叫社會有共識全台灣所有2300萬人一次同意叫有共識還是說其實只要大部分人可以接受他就叫有共識大部分人能夠接受但是我要提一下但是大部分人能夠接受不是完全用這個民粹的想法所謂的民粹的想法我放假越多天越好\n\n23\n00:08:20,091 --> 00:08:37,849\n我今天講你講說怕變成流於民粹這個本席不反對但問題就是因為這樣所以我今天要問你一個標準我們也不希望為了特定團體也不希望為了特定團體然後講還我勞工七天假然後綁架勞工說五月一號要全國放假我們已經講過了五月一號本來全國勞工就放假\n\n24\n00:08:38,450 --> 00:08:50,544\n部長這對這一段時間一直每一次在街頭上大聲疾呼希望可以減少工時讓勞工休息的團體而言你這樣講話實在對他們實在非常傷心老師我剛剛有提到了不要為了特定團體來處理全國放假的事情所以你認為這個事情\n\n25\n00:08:55,509 --> 00:08:59,490\n因為它是需要一個很簡單的我們願意跟他們溝通但是不是用這樣的方式放假多少天不要說勞動團體都這樣想應該是說全國的人認為放假的天數這樣可能不夠我們希望多放假幾天那放什麼節日或放什麼假日我們再來講所以我剛剛有特別提到這是一個層次的問題不要用假日、節日、紀念日然後說一定要放假因為這個差太遠\n\n26\n00:09:24,774 --> 00:09:49,610\n我們現在就要多放31天假部長你不希望用只是用勞工團體的聲音所以剛剛旭貞委員其實就已經提出了全國的民意調查嘛都還是有六成多人支持啦所以我們說我們保持開放的態度啊我沒有說現在不可以放假啊但是今年已經來不及了今天大家用開放的態度討論其實慢慢慢慢有共識法條還會有後續的審議啦好大家也會做版本的整合請你做好準備好部長休息一下我請勞動部次長\n\n27\n00:09:55,367 --> 00:09:56,749\n請勞動部次長這個有人曾經說過七天假不應該跟周秀恩這個議題掛鉤這兩者掛鉤在一起是政黨政治下的權力操作你認同這句話嗎\n\n28\n00:10:12,031 --> 00:10:31,691\n我覺得我們的那個週休二日的問題實際上我剛剛前面已經講在修法20162017年修法之後事實上週休二日的企業家數跟勞工人數都有提升了所以你覺得這兩件事要不要掛鉤週休二日跟七天假這兩件事要不要掛鉤在一起這話誰講你知道嗎\n\n29\n00:10:34,156 --> 00:10:52,847\n請說這話是你的長官講今天沒有來所以派你代理啊這是我們洪三安部長講的是他以前做立法委員的時候幫勞工講話的時候他說七天假的議題不應該跟週休二日掛鉤啊你不應該因為為了推動週休二日就砍掉七天假嘛這其實就是勞工朋友也是現在工時很長勞工朋友們心中的痛嘛對不對所以他當初有這樣子的一個初衷我都很肯定他\n\n30\n00:10:53,527 --> 00:11:21,901\n所以過去我在勞動部在未完委員會質詢他的時候我也跟他討論過這個問題他說他願意有開放心態來面對至少今天次長你今天的心態也是用開放心態來面對我認為這都是往前走的一個方法所以我蠻贊成這個概念這不應該掛鉤但我要再問也有人講說從來就沒有所謂七天假要不要還的問題因為七天假是沒有落實週休二日的時候馬總統那個時候提出的所以落實的時候就要取消請問這是不是掛鉤這是不是把週休二日跟七天假兩件事掛在一起\n\n31\n00:11:22,941 --> 00:11:37,352\n這要看怎麼看我剛剛已經講了我們在修法以後其實週休日的企業家數跟勞工人數都有提升了所以到底這句話是不是代表要掛在一起看對不對他說沒有砍七天價的問題因為這個本來就是週休日的配套這是不是就是掛鉤\n\n32\n00:11:39,090 --> 00:11:54,241\n那這句話誰講的你知道嗎請說是你長官的長官叫卓榮泰院長講的好現在問題來我就請你所以我就委屈你一點啦但是現在我們的勞動部部長曾經主張這件事情不要掛鉤行政院長又把這件事情要掛鉤那請問到底是要掛鉤還是不要掛鉤\n\n33\n00:11:55,253 --> 00:12:17,704\n我們覺得還是要站在勞工的實際的工時狀況來考慮而且各行各業的營運模式還有工作狀況都不一樣要通盤檢討所以要站在實際的工時的狀況來考慮回到全民到底台灣的勞工有沒有過勞的狀況我們的上班族需不需要多一點喘息的時間是不是回到這個問題的核心來做處理很好這個其實就是我們排審的原因\n\n34\n00:12:17,964 --> 00:12:38,249\n我們認為就是要因為剛剛不管這個數字是OECD的也好或者是怎麼樣或者是來自人民的感受也好或者是來自民意調查的數據支持也好其實我要透過這場質詢強調的就是大部分台灣的民意是希望增加國定假日的天數的對不對國定假日的強度一定高過於特休啦我本來想要問你你支持週休三日\n\n35\n00:12:40,107 --> 00:13:07,849\n有些歐洲國家在實驗中其實每次有這個話題的時候台灣的勞工有些都蠻高興的為什麼因為累嘛希望多一點時間休息所以週休三日出來的時候大家說我們會不會試用政府說沒有辦法試用對不對因為畢竟是一個很大膽的嘗試對不對很多人就講說那你真的要特休啊可是就很多人跳出來講我特休年資的問題我有看得到吃不到的這樣一個問題所以說為什麼我們如果要讓勞工立刻的可以享受到工時減少多一點喘息的時間我們要從國定價值下手嘛\n\n36\n00:13:08,913 --> 00:13:36,030\n市長你應該不會反對這樣的看法我剛剛已經有回答過就是讓勞工的工時適度的縮減讓勞工休息增加國定假日之外其實還有就是他的加班工時如何適度的減少那這個就我們的調查有一些特定行業像製造業運輸倉儲業他的加班工時是在各行業裡面比較長的那這跟他的營運模式有很大關係那這個部分我們也透過各種方式希望能夠把它削減一點\n\n37\n00:13:36,801 --> 00:13:57,121\n這本席在這邊表達一下我們的立場就是說各種方式只要能夠讓台灣的勞工不要再過勞我們都會支持然後你也可以互相搭配沒有問題但我們希望政府有態度如果政府沒有態度那只好立法院先走其實不外乎就是如此而已好不好希望次長也好部長也好好好準備謝謝好謝謝謝謝牛徐廷召委也謝謝李政次接下來\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4084\t27264\t好 謝謝主席內政部部長有請請劉順寬部長好 莊委好劉部長辛苦了這個今年2月25號我們這個吳世耀委員在大院提出總質詢的時候其實曾經有詢問過您也有詢問過我們卓榮泰院長是否要針對國定假日的這個法案提出修法的對岸的一個版本還是說請向透過行政命令的方式來處理\n28445\t42735\t部長那時候的回答是說希望可以維持現狀因為各委員會的版本這剛剛其實都說過了有不同的意見有待整合勞基法修法後的公實已經齊平等等法案的推動要有共識說法也不一樣如果變成法律案會有爭議那當然嘛經過這個雖然喔\n47096\t76162\t已經也沒有多久但也經過了一段時間到現在快一個月了請問部長態度有改變嗎你今天還是用一樣的說法來回應大家的我今天的報告就講得非常的清楚我覺得爭議仍然很大但是裡面有一塊我剛剛提到了第一個目的失業主管機關也就是說大家比較在乎的所謂的要不要勞動節那一天全國放假這個議題分成兩個層次第一個在我們的節日的實施辦法裡面勞動節那一天勞動者就是放假\n77142\t104839\t不是勞動者也就是說廣泛來講沒有領到沒有用勞保的這些軍公教的人要不要跟著一起放假但是我提到了如果要一起放假的話要有共識這個共識就是要跟人事行政總處大家來交換意見所以院長在聽到我們報告的時候特別提到我們保持開放的態度看用什麼方式來解決但是因為剛剛可能有幾位委員有提到過今年的放假日在去年年底的時候已經公布了\n105219\t123997\t包括補班日大家也都執行了像今年的春節就是這樣子那明年的話我們還有一段時間我希望說可以讓它可以和緩大家會有共識出來然後不要變成是朝野對立或是政黨對立的議題所以目前我在回答委員的問題的時候幾乎都是站在這樣的立場做回應我覺得時間有限\n127260\t145474\t這個你說不希望這樣子的題目變成朝野的對立也不希望變成政治性的題目這一點本席敬表尊重其實也表達同意但其實在行訴共識的過程之中總要有各個不同的版本來做討論嘛不瞞不長講啦這個在野黨提案的委員數量雖然多但在野黨當然也會做所謂的法案整合嘛\n145914\t156141\t所以到進入大體討論甚至到主條討論之前它的版本當然就會再做精簡但是我要問既然我們今天要追尋的是盡量求這件事情的圓滿那麼請問執政黨這一端它會不會有版本這個其實是大家很關心的問題\n161844\t179120\t之前曾經有媒體有報導說可能行政院會有所謂的院版請問到底有沒有這樣的規劃因為就我本席了解這個勞團前一陣子也到行政院去陳情嘛所以希望看到有院版的這樣一個機會那如果院版的內容當然就由內政部來做主責嘛你會不會增加放假的天數還是說從頭到尾現在就是沒有院版\n179600\t200700\t我們總之要把這件事情釐清一下如果有院版我們早就提供出來給委員參考了也就是說行政院在內部考量的時候呢他變成是所有的部會都要提供他們的意見那院長呢還是保持開放的態度因為我們都知道說這裡面呢除了特定的特殊身份的族群以外還有一些是屬於世代的差距\n201821\t218494\t所謂的世代差距的話譬如說年紀比較大的覺得說何必放假那年紀比較輕的就是趕快放假包括228我們是紀念日也把它當成是慶祝228所以事實上就會有點沒有辦法有一個共識出來所以你的意思就是不會有認版也不會提\n218834\t246538\t目前為止沒有院版但是我們也就是我們希望維持現狀啦維持現在的實施辦法也就是維持現在的實施辦法剛剛部長喔在講實施辦法的時候當然就是說速度比較快比較有彈性對不對不過我也要提醒部長一個比較殘酷的事實啦我們今天站在這邊當然是要幫勞工朋友講話嘛就是說節日與紀念日的這個實施辦法在以行政命令的層級由行政機關來主管的情況下就本席的了解從來沒有幫勞工增加假日啦砍掉倒是速度挺快的但是都沒有增加嘛\n246769\t272748\t抱歉這個不是在節日實施辦法裡面這樣做的我們節日實施辦法勞動節本來就是一個我不是講勞動節我講就是國定假日的天數嘛你現在是不是行政命令可以處理如果今天我們的政府非常有誠意而且很快願意還給勞工七天假你今天行政命令一下去七天假就還來了嘛我還是一再跟各位委員報告沒有所謂的還我勞工七天假這樣的議題至少在行政部門裡面從來不會出現還我勞工七天假因為這是一個政治議題\n274249\t293302\t我們不希望說用這個朝野對峙的方式來處理有關勞工放假的議題這不是朝野的問題啦還勞工七天假其實是勞工團體跟很多勞工朋友期待的那個我尊重但是不是行政院的主張我們回到法理上面來講是不是現在透過行政命令的方式你其實就可以增加國定假日的天數其實是對不對\n294062\t311922\t但是過去這段時間不一定你又有理由又有意義啊你要紀念什麼你什麼樣的紀念日什麼樣的節日你要講清楚你不能隨便一個你講的是理由對不對你不能隨便一個拜拜隨便一個初一十五就要放假啊我只是要釐清一個事實就是你在有這樣的權限的情況之下基於你的各種理由反正就是沒有增加\n312703\t327712\t我們的權限沒有委員所提到的那麼大我們的權限送到行政院去的時候要有很多不同的部會包括人事行政總部甚至包括權序部都要提供給我們意見我們才能把它放下去所以其實政府部門的彈性其實也沒有想像中那麼大\n328072\t344575\t所以如果民間尤其是民意調查的數字已經顯示有超過六成的人非常希望增加國定價值的天數真正不贊成增加天數的人大概只有不到百分之二十那在這樣子的一個主流民意的驅動下行政機關還是寸步難行那我只好透過立法院修法的方式來處理\n345576\t373317\t報告委員民意調查的部分如果民意調查認為說七成以上的人希望我們的租金補助不要刪除但是我們在立法院裡面還是被刪跟凍啦那我覺得也非常遺憾部長第一個你的預算附議案沒有辦法過關的時候我是沒有辦法處理解凍案的第二個凍結跟刪除好像不太一樣你做過立法委員這我們就不多講不要岔開話題部長你一直講說要凝聚共識對不對針對國定價值的天數也好或者是一些內容跟意涵也好請問從去年啊\n374037\t393264\t這個我們的公聽會到了現在內政部有沒有針對各部會也好或行政院這個平台收集了哪些意見開過幾次會什麼層級參加有沒有初步的共識或方向聽起來是沒有有嗎報告委員應該是這樣子就是院長在很多這個大小的會議裡面如果有人是行政總處或者是勞動部的時候都會提到這個問題\n394344\t401289\t但是我們在滾動式的調整當中會認為說現在這樣的時間還沒有成熟或是說現在這個時間還沒有共識你居然對外講的話並不是一個好的現象反而會置私欲焚所以我們寧可讓他再長一點的時間來做討論讓他有共識但是我剛有提到我們不希望變成是在野黨或者是執政黨之間的一個政黨的紛爭然後讓他可以好好的落幕\n422502\t443563\t部長不希望這個事情再變成政治吵架的一個題目但是我也要如實反映勞工的心聲勞工的心聲都不希望這件事情再只是不管是藍也好綠也好白也好政治人物在選舉時候的承諾但選後沒有任何作為本期今天會去排審這樣的一個法案因為現在之後執行適用的期間是明年不是今年啊所以我們剛剛有提到適用的期間在法條上是可以規定的啊\n443683\t472592\t今年的人事行政總署在去年年底的時候已經對外宣告多少放假日還有補班日那是因為現在的所以現在如果這個法律案通過的話不能夠馬上適用你看你行政命令的時候你想執行的事情你就執行的很愉快但是我們想要增加假日的時候你就裹住沒有 按照行政程序我們是按照行政程序法來執行所有的相關規定你要回答我的問題就是剛剛很多委員都講說我們要有我們要有社會共識請問你覺得到什麼樣的程度叫做社會有共識\n475963\t499531\t這個放假的這件事情不曉得委員所提的是哪一項沒有就放假比如說天數也好或是哪幾天要放假到底什麼樣的程度叫社會有共識全台灣所有2300萬人一次同意叫有共識還是說其實只要大部分人可以接受他就叫有共識大部分人能夠接受但是我要提一下但是大部分人能夠接受不是完全用這個民粹的想法所謂的民粹的想法我放假越多天越好\n500091\t517849\t我今天講你講說怕變成流於民粹這個本席不反對但問題就是因為這樣所以我今天要問你一個標準我們也不希望為了特定團體也不希望為了特定團體然後講還我勞工七天假然後綁架勞工說五月一號要全國放假我們已經講過了五月一號本來全國勞工就放假\n518450\t530544\t部長這對這一段時間一直每一次在街頭上大聲疾呼希望可以減少工時讓勞工休息的團體而言你這樣講話實在對他們實在非常傷心老師我剛剛有提到了不要為了特定團體來處理全國放假的事情所以你認為這個事情\n535509\t539490\t因為它是需要一個很簡單的我們願意跟他們溝通但是不是用這樣的方式放假多少天不要說勞動團體都這樣想應該是說全國的人認為放假的天數這樣可能不夠我們希望多放假幾天那放什麼節日或放什麼假日我們再來講所以我剛剛有特別提到這是一個層次的問題不要用假日、節日、紀念日然後說一定要放假因為這個差太遠\n564774\t589610\t我們現在就要多放31天假部長你不希望用 只是用勞工團體的聲音所以剛剛旭貞委員其實就已經提出了全國的民意調查嘛都還是有六成多人支持啦所以我們說我們保持開放的態度啊我沒有說現在不可以放假啊但是今年已經來不及了今天大家用開放的態度討論其實慢慢慢慢有共識法條還會有後續的審議啦好 大家也會做版本的整合請你做好準備好 部長休息一下我請勞動部次長\n595367\t596749\t請勞動部次長這個有人曾經說過七天假不應該跟周秀恩這個議題掛鉤這兩者掛鉤在一起是政黨政治下的權力操作你認同這句話嗎\n612031\t631691\t我覺得我們的那個週休二日的問題實際上我剛剛前面已經講在修法20162017年修法之後事實上週休二日的企業家數跟勞工人數都有提升了所以你覺得這兩件事要不要掛鉤週休二日跟七天假這兩件事要不要掛鉤在一起這話誰講你知道嗎\n634156\t652847\t請說這話是你的長官講今天沒有來所以派你代理啊這是我們洪三安部長講的是他以前做立法委員的時候幫勞工講話的時候他說七天假的議題不應該跟週休二日掛鉤啊你不應該因為為了推動週休二日就砍掉七天假嘛這其實就是勞工朋友也是現在工時很長勞工朋友們心中的痛嘛對不對所以他當初有這樣子的一個初衷我都很肯定他\n653527\t681901\t所以過去我在勞動部在未完委員會質詢他的時候我也跟他討論過這個問題他說他願意有開放心態來面對至少今天次長你今天的心態也是用開放心態來面對我認為這都是往前走的一個方法所以我蠻贊成這個概念這不應該掛鉤但我要再問也有人講說從來就沒有所謂七天假要不要還的問題因為七天假是沒有落實週休二日的時候馬總統那個時候提出的所以落實的時候就要取消請問這是不是掛鉤這是不是把週休二日跟七天假兩件事掛在一起\n682941\t697352\t這要看怎麼看我剛剛已經講了我們在修法以後其實週休日的企業家數跟勞工人數都有提升了所以到底這句話是不是代表要掛在一起看對不對他說沒有砍七天價的問題因為這個本來就是週休日的配套這是不是就是掛鉤\n699090\t714241\t那這句話誰講的你知道嗎請說是你長官的長官叫卓榮泰院長講的好現在問題來我就請你所以我就委屈你一點啦但是現在我們的勞動部部長曾經主張這件事情不要掛鉤行政院長又把這件事情要掛鉤那請問到底是要掛鉤還是不要掛鉤\n715253\t737704\t我們覺得還是要站在勞工的實際的工時狀況來考慮而且各行各業的營運模式還有工作狀況都不一樣要通盤檢討所以要站在實際的工時的狀況來考慮回到全民到底台灣的勞工有沒有過勞的狀況我們的上班族需不需要多一點喘息的時間是不是回到這個問題的核心來做處理很好這個其實就是我們排審的原因\n737964\t758249\t我們認為就是要因為剛剛不管這個數字是OECD的也好或者是怎麼樣或者是來自人民的感受也好或者是來自民意調查的數據支持也好其實我要透過這場質詢強調的就是大部分台灣的民意是希望增加國定假日的天數的對不對國定假日的強度一定高過於特休啦我本來想要問你你支持週休三日\n760107\t787849\t有些歐洲國家在實驗中其實每次有這個話題的時候 台灣的勞工有些都蠻高興的為什麼 因為累嘛 希望多一點時間休息所以週休三日出來的時候 大家說我們會不會試用政府說沒有辦法試用 對不對因為畢竟是一個很大膽的嘗試對不對 很多人就講說那你真的要特休啊可是就很多人跳出來講我特休年資的問題我有看得到吃不到的這樣一個問題所以說為什麼我們如果要讓勞工立刻的可以享受到工時減少 多一點喘息的時間我們要從國定價值下手嘛\n788913\t816030\t市長你應該不會反對這樣的看法我剛剛已經有回答過就是讓勞工的工時適度的縮減讓勞工休息增加國定假日之外其實還有就是他的加班工時如何適度的減少那這個就我們的調查有一些特定行業像製造業 運輸倉儲業他的加班工時是在各行業裡面比較長的那這跟他的營運模式有很大關係那這個部分我們也透過各種方式希望能夠把它削減一點\n816801\t837121\t這本席在這邊表達一下我們的立場就是說各種方式只要能夠讓台灣的勞工不要再過勞我們都會支持然後你也可以互相搭配沒有問題但我們希望政府有態度如果政府沒有態度那只好立法院先走其實不外乎就是如此而已好不好希望次長也好部長也好好好準備謝謝好 謝謝謝謝牛徐廷召委也謝謝李政次接下來\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席內政部部長有請請劉順寬部長好 莊委好劉部長辛苦了這個今年2月25號我們這個吳世耀委員在大院提出總質詢的時候其實曾經有詢問過您也有詢問過我們卓榮泰院長是否要針對國定假日的這個法案提出修法的對岸的一個版本還是說請向透過行政命令的方式來處理\n部長那時候的回答是說希望可以維持現狀因為各委員會的版本這剛剛其實都說過了有不同的意見有待整合勞基法修法後的公實已經齊平等等法案的推動要有共識說法也不一樣如果變成法律案會有爭議那當然嘛經過這個雖然喔\n已經也沒有多久但也經過了一段時間到現在快一個月了請問部長態度有改變嗎你今天還是用一樣的說法來回應大家的我今天的報告就講得非常的清楚我覺得爭議仍然很大但是裡面有一塊我剛剛提到了第一個目的失業主管機關也就是說大家比較在乎的所謂的要不要勞動節那一天全國放假這個議題分成兩個層次第一個在我們的節日的實施辦法裡面勞動節那一天勞動者就是放假\n不是勞動者也就是說廣泛來講沒有領到沒有用勞保的這些軍公教的人要不要跟著一起放假但是我提到了如果要一起放假的話要有共識這個共識就是要跟人事行政總處大家來交換意見所以院長在聽到我們報告的時候特別提到我們保持開放的態度看用什麼方式來解決但是因為剛剛可能有幾位委員有提到過今年的放假日在去年年底的時候已經公布了\n包括補班日大家也都執行了像今年的春節就是這樣子那明年的話我們還有一段時間我希望說可以讓它可以和緩大家會有共識出來然後不要變成是朝野對立或是政黨對立的議題所以目前我在回答委員的問題的時候幾乎都是站在這樣的立場做回應我覺得時間有限\n這個你說不希望這樣子的題目變成朝野的對立也不希望變成政治性的題目這一點本席敬表尊重其實也表達同意但其實在行訴共識的過程之中總要有各個不同的版本來做討論嘛不瞞不長講啦這個在野黨提案的委員數量雖然多但在野黨當然也會做所謂的法案整合嘛\n所以到進入大體討論甚至到主條討論之前它的版本當然就會再做精簡但是我要問既然我們今天要追尋的是盡量求這件事情的圓滿那麼請問執政黨這一端它會不會有版本這個其實是大家很關心的問題\n之前曾經有媒體有報導說可能行政院會有所謂的院版請問到底有沒有這樣的規劃因為就我本席了解這個勞團前一陣子也到行政院去陳情嘛所以希望看到有院版的這樣一個機會那如果院版的內容當然就由內政部來做主責嘛你會不會增加放假的天數還是說從頭到尾現在就是沒有院版\n我們總之要把這件事情釐清一下如果有院版我們早就提供出來給委員參考了也就是說行政院在內部考量的時候呢他變成是所有的部會都要提供他們的意見那院長呢還是保持開放的態度因為我們都知道說這裡面呢除了特定的特殊身份的族群以外還有一些是屬於世代的差距\n所謂的世代差距的話譬如說年紀比較大的覺得說何必放假那年紀比較輕的就是趕快放假包括228我們是紀念日也把它當成是慶祝228所以事實上就會有點沒有辦法有一個共識出來所以你的意思就是不會有認版也不會提\n目前為止沒有院版但是我們也就是我們希望維持現狀啦維持現在的實施辦法也就是維持現在的實施辦法剛剛部長喔在講實施辦法的時候當然就是說速度比較快比較有彈性對不對不過我也要提醒部長一個比較殘酷的事實啦我們今天站在這邊當然是要幫勞工朋友講話嘛就是說節日與紀念日的這個實施辦法在以行政命令的層級由行政機關來主管的情況下就本席的了解從來沒有幫勞工增加假日啦砍掉倒是速度挺快的但是都沒有增加嘛\n抱歉這個不是在節日實施辦法裡面這樣做的我們節日實施辦法勞動節本來就是一個我不是講勞動節我講就是國定假日的天數嘛你現在是不是行政命令可以處理如果今天我們的政府非常有誠意而且很快願意還給勞工七天假你今天行政命令一下去七天假就還來了嘛我還是一再跟各位委員報告沒有所謂的還我勞工七天假這樣的議題至少在行政部門裡面從來不會出現還我勞工七天假因為這是一個政治議題\n我們不希望說用這個朝野對峙的方式來處理有關勞工放假的議題這不是朝野的問題啦還勞工七天假其實是勞工團體跟很多勞工朋友期待的那個我尊重但是不是行政院的主張我們回到法理上面來講是不是現在透過行政命令的方式你其實就可以增加國定假日的天數其實是對不對\n但是過去這段時間不一定你又有理由又有意義啊你要紀念什麼你什麼樣的紀念日什麼樣的節日你要講清楚你不能隨便一個你講的是理由對不對你不能隨便一個拜拜隨便一個初一十五就要放假啊我只是要釐清一個事實就是你在有這樣的權限的情況之下基於你的各種理由反正就是沒有增加\n我們的權限沒有委員所提到的那麼大我們的權限送到行政院去的時候要有很多不同的部會包括人事行政總部甚至包括權序部都要提供給我們意見我們才能把它放下去所以其實政府部門的彈性其實也沒有想像中那麼大\n所以如果民間尤其是民意調查的數字已經顯示有超過六成的人非常希望增加國定價值的天數真正不贊成增加天數的人大概只有不到百分之二十那在這樣子的一個主流民意的驅動下行政機關還是寸步難行那我只好透過立法院修法的方式來處理\n報告委員民意調查的部分如果民意調查認為說七成以上的人希望我們的租金補助不要刪除但是我們在立法院裡面還是被刪跟凍啦那我覺得也非常遺憾部長第一個你的預算附議案沒有辦法過關的時候我是沒有辦法處理解凍案的第二個凍結跟刪除好像不太一樣你做過立法委員這我們就不多講不要岔開話題部長你一直講說要凝聚共識對不對針對國定價值的天數也好或者是一些內容跟意涵也好請問從去年啊\n這個我們的公聽會到了現在內政部有沒有針對各部會也好或行政院這個平台收集了哪些意見開過幾次會什麼層級參加有沒有初步的共識或方向聽起來是沒有有嗎報告委員應該是這樣子就是院長在很多這個大小的會議裡面如果有人是行政總處或者是勞動部的時候都會提到這個問題\n但是我們在滾動式的調整當中會認為說現在這樣的時間還沒有成熟或是說現在這個時間還沒有共識你居然對外講的話並不是一個好的現象反而會置私欲焚所以我們寧可讓他再長一點的時間來做討論讓他有共識但是我剛有提到我們不希望變成是在野黨或者是執政黨之間的一個政黨的紛爭然後讓他可以好好的落幕\n部長不希望這個事情再變成政治吵架的一個題目但是我也要如實反映勞工的心聲勞工的心聲都不希望這件事情再只是不管是藍也好綠也好白也好政治人物在選舉時候的承諾但選後沒有任何作為本期今天會去排審這樣的一個法案因為現在之後執行適用的期間是明年不是今年啊所以我們剛剛有提到適用的期間在法條上是可以規定的啊\n今年的人事行政總署在去年年底的時候已經對外宣告多少放假日還有補班日那是因為現在的所以現在如果這個法律案通過的話不能夠馬上適用你看你行政命令的時候你想執行的事情你就執行的很愉快但是我們想要增加假日的時候你就裹住沒有 按照行政程序我們是按照行政程序法來執行所有的相關規定你要回答我的問題就是剛剛很多委員都講說我們要有我們要有社會共識請問你覺得到什麼樣的程度叫做社會有共識\n這個放假的這件事情不曉得委員所提的是哪一項沒有就放假比如說天數也好或是哪幾天要放假到底什麼樣的程度叫社會有共識全台灣所有2300萬人一次同意叫有共識還是說其實只要大部分人可以接受他就叫有共識大部分人能夠接受但是我要提一下但是大部分人能夠接受不是完全用這個民粹的想法所謂的民粹的想法我放假越多天越好\n我今天講你講說怕變成流於民粹這個本席不反對但問題就是因為這樣所以我今天要問你一個標準我們也不希望為了特定團體也不希望為了特定團體然後講還我勞工七天假然後綁架勞工說五月一號要全國放假我們已經講過了五月一號本來全國勞工就放假\n部長這對這一段時間一直每一次在街頭上大聲疾呼希望可以減少工時讓勞工休息的團體而言你這樣講話實在對他們實在非常傷心老師我剛剛有提到了不要為了特定團體來處理全國放假的事情所以你認為這個事情\n因為它是需要一個很簡單的我們願意跟他們溝通但是不是用這樣的方式放假多少天不要說勞動團體都這樣想應該是說全國的人認為放假的天數這樣可能不夠我們希望多放假幾天那放什麼節日或放什麼假日我們再來講所以我剛剛有特別提到這是一個層次的問題不要用假日、節日、紀念日然後說一定要放假因為這個差太遠\n我們現在就要多放31天假部長你不希望用 只是用勞工團體的聲音所以剛剛旭貞委員其實就已經提出了全國的民意調查嘛都還是有六成多人支持啦所以我們說我們保持開放的態度啊我沒有說現在不可以放假啊但是今年已經來不及了今天大家用開放的態度討論其實慢慢慢慢有共識法條還會有後續的審議啦好 大家也會做版本的整合請你做好準備好 部長休息一下我請勞動部次長\n請勞動部次長這個有人曾經說過七天假不應該跟周秀恩這個議題掛鉤這兩者掛鉤在一起是政黨政治下的權力操作你認同這句話嗎\n我覺得我們的那個週休二日的問題實際上我剛剛前面已經講在修法20162017年修法之後事實上週休二日的企業家數跟勞工人數都有提升了所以你覺得這兩件事要不要掛鉤週休二日跟七天假這兩件事要不要掛鉤在一起這話誰講你知道嗎\n請說這話是你的長官講今天沒有來所以派你代理啊這是我們洪三安部長講的是他以前做立法委員的時候幫勞工講話的時候他說七天假的議題不應該跟週休二日掛鉤啊你不應該因為為了推動週休二日就砍掉七天假嘛這其實就是勞工朋友也是現在工時很長勞工朋友們心中的痛嘛對不對所以他當初有這樣子的一個初衷我都很肯定他\n所以過去我在勞動部在未完委員會質詢他的時候我也跟他討論過這個問題他說他願意有開放心態來面對至少今天次長你今天的心態也是用開放心態來面對我認為這都是往前走的一個方法所以我蠻贊成這個概念這不應該掛鉤但我要再問也有人講說從來就沒有所謂七天假要不要還的問題因為七天假是沒有落實週休二日的時候馬總統那個時候提出的所以落實的時候就要取消請問這是不是掛鉤這是不是把週休二日跟七天假兩件事掛在一起\n這要看怎麼看我剛剛已經講了我們在修法以後其實週休日的企業家數跟勞工人數都有提升了所以到底這句話是不是代表要掛在一起看對不對他說沒有砍七天價的問題因為這個本來就是週休日的配套這是不是就是掛鉤\n那這句話誰講的你知道嗎請說是你長官的長官叫卓榮泰院長講的好現在問題來我就請你所以我就委屈你一點啦但是現在我們的勞動部部長曾經主張這件事情不要掛鉤行政院長又把這件事情要掛鉤那請問到底是要掛鉤還是不要掛鉤\n我們覺得還是要站在勞工的實際的工時狀況來考慮而且各行各業的營運模式還有工作狀況都不一樣要通盤檢討所以要站在實際的工時的狀況來考慮回到全民到底台灣的勞工有沒有過勞的狀況我們的上班族需不需要多一點喘息的時間是不是回到這個問題的核心來做處理很好這個其實就是我們排審的原因\n我們認為就是要因為剛剛不管這個數字是OECD的也好或者是怎麼樣或者是來自人民的感受也好或者是來自民意調查的數據支持也好其實我要透過這場質詢強調的就是大部分台灣的民意是希望增加國定假日的天數的對不對國定假日的強度一定高過於特休啦我本來想要問你你支持週休三日\n有些歐洲國家在實驗中其實每次有這個話題的時候 台灣的勞工有些都蠻高興的為什麼 因為累嘛 希望多一點時間休息所以週休三日出來的時候 大家說我們會不會試用政府說沒有辦法試用 對不對因為畢竟是一個很大膽的嘗試對不對 很多人就講說那你真的要特休啊可是就很多人跳出來講我特休年資的問題我有看得到吃不到的這樣一個問題所以說為什麼我們如果要讓勞工立刻的可以享受到工時減少 多一點喘息的時間我們要從國定價值下手嘛\n市長你應該不會反對這樣的看法我剛剛已經有回答過就是讓勞工的工時適度的縮減讓勞工休息增加國定假日之外其實還有就是他的加班工時如何適度的減少那這個就我們的調查有一些特定行業像製造業 運輸倉儲業他的加班工時是在各行業裡面比較長的那這跟他的營運模式有很大關係那這個部分我們也透過各種方式希望能夠把它削減一點\n這本席在這邊表達一下我們的立場就是說各種方式只要能夠讓台灣的勞工不要再過勞我們都會支持然後你也可以互相搭配沒有問題但我們希望政府有態度如果政府沒有態度那只好立法院先走其實不外乎就是如此而已好不好希望次長也好部長也好好好準備謝謝好 謝謝謝謝牛徐廷召委也謝謝李政次接下來\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.084 --> 00:27.264\n好謝謝主席內政部部長有請請劉順寬部長好莊委好劉部長辛苦了這個今年2月25號我們這個吳世耀委員在大院提出總質詢的時候其實曾經有詢問過您也有詢問過我們卓榮泰院長是否要針對國定假日的這個法案提出修法的對岸的一個版本還是說請向透過行政命令的方式來處理\n\n00:28.445 --> 00:42.735\n部長那時候的回答是說希望可以維持現狀因為各委員會的版本這剛剛其實都說過了有不同的意見有待整合勞基法修法後的公實已經齊平等等法案的推動要有共識說法也不一樣如果變成法律案會有爭議那當然嘛經過這個雖然喔\n\n00:47.096 --> 01:16.162\n已經也沒有多久但也經過了一段時間到現在快一個月了請問部長態度有改變嗎你今天還是用一樣的說法來回應大家的我今天的報告就講得非常的清楚我覺得爭議仍然很大但是裡面有一塊我剛剛提到了第一個目的失業主管機關也就是說大家比較在乎的所謂的要不要勞動節那一天全國放假這個議題分成兩個層次第一個在我們的節日的實施辦法裡面勞動節那一天勞動者就是放假\n\n01:17.142 --> 01:44.839\n不是勞動者也就是說廣泛來講沒有領到沒有用勞保的這些軍公教的人要不要跟著一起放假但是我提到了如果要一起放假的話要有共識這個共識就是要跟人事行政總處大家來交換意見所以院長在聽到我們報告的時候特別提到我們保持開放的態度看用什麼方式來解決但是因為剛剛可能有幾位委員有提到過今年的放假日在去年年底的時候已經公布了\n\n01:45.219 --> 02:03.997\n包括補班日大家也都執行了像今年的春節就是這樣子那明年的話我們還有一段時間我希望說可以讓它可以和緩大家會有共識出來然後不要變成是朝野對立或是政黨對立的議題所以目前我在回答委員的問題的時候幾乎都是站在這樣的立場做回應我覺得時間有限\n\n02:07.260 --> 02:25.474\n這個你說不希望這樣子的題目變成朝野的對立也不希望變成政治性的題目這一點本席敬表尊重其實也表達同意但其實在行訴共識的過程之中總要有各個不同的版本來做討論嘛不瞞不長講啦這個在野黨提案的委員數量雖然多但在野黨當然也會做所謂的法案整合嘛\n\n02:25.914 --> 02:36.141\n所以到進入大體討論甚至到主條討論之前它的版本當然就會再做精簡但是我要問既然我們今天要追尋的是盡量求這件事情的圓滿那麼請問執政黨這一端它會不會有版本這個其實是大家很關心的問題\n\n02:41.844 --> 02:59.120\n之前曾經有媒體有報導說可能行政院會有所謂的院版請問到底有沒有這樣的規劃因為就我本席了解這個勞團前一陣子也到行政院去陳情嘛所以希望看到有院版的這樣一個機會那如果院版的內容當然就由內政部來做主責嘛你會不會增加放假的天數還是說從頭到尾現在就是沒有院版\n\n02:59.600 --> 03:20.700\n我們總之要把這件事情釐清一下如果有院版我們早就提供出來給委員參考了也就是說行政院在內部考量的時候呢他變成是所有的部會都要提供他們的意見那院長呢還是保持開放的態度因為我們都知道說這裡面呢除了特定的特殊身份的族群以外還有一些是屬於世代的差距\n\n03:21.821 --> 03:38.494\n所謂的世代差距的話譬如說年紀比較大的覺得說何必放假那年紀比較輕的就是趕快放假包括228我們是紀念日也把它當成是慶祝228所以事實上就會有點沒有辦法有一個共識出來所以你的意思就是不會有認版也不會提\n\n03:38.834 --> 04:06.538\n目前為止沒有院版但是我們也就是我們希望維持現狀啦維持現在的實施辦法也就是維持現在的實施辦法剛剛部長喔在講實施辦法的時候當然就是說速度比較快比較有彈性對不對不過我也要提醒部長一個比較殘酷的事實啦我們今天站在這邊當然是要幫勞工朋友講話嘛就是說節日與紀念日的這個實施辦法在以行政命令的層級由行政機關來主管的情況下就本席的了解從來沒有幫勞工增加假日啦砍掉倒是速度挺快的但是都沒有增加嘛\n\n04:06.769 --> 04:32.748\n抱歉這個不是在節日實施辦法裡面這樣做的我們節日實施辦法勞動節本來就是一個我不是講勞動節我講就是國定假日的天數嘛你現在是不是行政命令可以處理如果今天我們的政府非常有誠意而且很快願意還給勞工七天假你今天行政命令一下去七天假就還來了嘛我還是一再跟各位委員報告沒有所謂的還我勞工七天假這樣的議題至少在行政部門裡面從來不會出現還我勞工七天假因為這是一個政治議題\n\n04:34.249 --> 04:53.302\n我們不希望說用這個朝野對峙的方式來處理有關勞工放假的議題這不是朝野的問題啦還勞工七天假其實是勞工團體跟很多勞工朋友期待的那個我尊重但是不是行政院的主張我們回到法理上面來講是不是現在透過行政命令的方式你其實就可以增加國定假日的天數其實是對不對\n\n04:54.062 --> 05:11.922\n但是過去這段時間不一定你又有理由又有意義啊你要紀念什麼你什麼樣的紀念日什麼樣的節日你要講清楚你不能隨便一個你講的是理由對不對你不能隨便一個拜拜隨便一個初一十五就要放假啊我只是要釐清一個事實就是你在有這樣的權限的情況之下基於你的各種理由反正就是沒有增加\n\n05:12.703 --> 05:27.712\n我們的權限沒有委員所提到的那麼大我們的權限送到行政院去的時候要有很多不同的部會包括人事行政總部甚至包括權序部都要提供給我們意見我們才能把它放下去所以其實政府部門的彈性其實也沒有想像中那麼大\n\n05:28.072 --> 05:44.575\n所以如果民間尤其是民意調查的數字已經顯示有超過六成的人非常希望增加國定價值的天數真正不贊成增加天數的人大概只有不到百分之二十那在這樣子的一個主流民意的驅動下行政機關還是寸步難行那我只好透過立法院修法的方式來處理\n\n05:45.576 --> 06:13.317\n報告委員民意調查的部分如果民意調查認為說七成以上的人希望我們的租金補助不要刪除但是我們在立法院裡面還是被刪跟凍啦那我覺得也非常遺憾部長第一個你的預算附議案沒有辦法過關的時候我是沒有辦法處理解凍案的第二個凍結跟刪除好像不太一樣你做過立法委員這我們就不多講不要岔開話題部長你一直講說要凝聚共識對不對針對國定價值的天數也好或者是一些內容跟意涵也好請問從去年啊\n\n06:14.037 --> 06:33.264\n這個我們的公聽會到了現在內政部有沒有針對各部會也好或行政院這個平台收集了哪些意見開過幾次會什麼層級參加有沒有初步的共識或方向聽起來是沒有有嗎報告委員應該是這樣子就是院長在很多這個大小的會議裡面如果有人是行政總處或者是勞動部的時候都會提到這個問題\n\n06:34.344 --> 06:41.289\n但是我們在滾動式的調整當中會認為說現在這樣的時間還沒有成熟或是說現在這個時間還沒有共識你居然對外講的話並不是一個好的現象反而會置私欲焚所以我們寧可讓他再長一點的時間來做討論讓他有共識但是我剛有提到我們不希望變成是在野黨或者是執政黨之間的一個政黨的紛爭然後讓他可以好好的落幕\n\n07:02.502 --> 07:23.563\n部長不希望這個事情再變成政治吵架的一個題目但是我也要如實反映勞工的心聲勞工的心聲都不希望這件事情再只是不管是藍也好綠也好白也好政治人物在選舉時候的承諾但選後沒有任何作為本期今天會去排審這樣的一個法案因為現在之後執行適用的期間是明年不是今年啊所以我們剛剛有提到適用的期間在法條上是可以規定的啊\n\n07:23.683 --> 07:52.592\n今年的人事行政總署在去年年底的時候已經對外宣告多少放假日還有補班日那是因為現在的所以現在如果這個法律案通過的話不能夠馬上適用你看你行政命令的時候你想執行的事情你就執行的很愉快但是我們想要增加假日的時候你就裹住沒有按照行政程序我們是按照行政程序法來執行所有的相關規定你要回答我的問題就是剛剛很多委員都講說我們要有我們要有社會共識請問你覺得到什麼樣的程度叫做社會有共識\n\n07:55.963 --> 08:19.531\n這個放假的這件事情不曉得委員所提的是哪一項沒有就放假比如說天數也好或是哪幾天要放假到底什麼樣的程度叫社會有共識全台灣所有2300萬人一次同意叫有共識還是說其實只要大部分人可以接受他就叫有共識大部分人能夠接受但是我要提一下但是大部分人能夠接受不是完全用這個民粹的想法所謂的民粹的想法我放假越多天越好\n\n08:20.091 --> 08:37.849\n我今天講你講說怕變成流於民粹這個本席不反對但問題就是因為這樣所以我今天要問你一個標準我們也不希望為了特定團體也不希望為了特定團體然後講還我勞工七天假然後綁架勞工說五月一號要全國放假我們已經講過了五月一號本來全國勞工就放假\n\n08:38.450 --> 08:50.544\n部長這對這一段時間一直每一次在街頭上大聲疾呼希望可以減少工時讓勞工休息的團體而言你這樣講話實在對他們實在非常傷心老師我剛剛有提到了不要為了特定團體來處理全國放假的事情所以你認為這個事情\n\n08:55.509 --> 08:59.490\n因為它是需要一個很簡單的我們願意跟他們溝通但是不是用這樣的方式放假多少天不要說勞動團體都這樣想應該是說全國的人認為放假的天數這樣可能不夠我們希望多放假幾天那放什麼節日或放什麼假日我們再來講所以我剛剛有特別提到這是一個層次的問題不要用假日、節日、紀念日然後說一定要放假因為這個差太遠\n\n09:24.774 --> 09:49.610\n我們現在就要多放31天假部長你不希望用只是用勞工團體的聲音所以剛剛旭貞委員其實就已經提出了全國的民意調查嘛都還是有六成多人支持啦所以我們說我們保持開放的態度啊我沒有說現在不可以放假啊但是今年已經來不及了今天大家用開放的態度討論其實慢慢慢慢有共識法條還會有後續的審議啦好大家也會做版本的整合請你做好準備好部長休息一下我請勞動部次長\n\n09:55.367 --> 09:56.749\n請勞動部次長這個有人曾經說過七天假不應該跟周秀恩這個議題掛鉤這兩者掛鉤在一起是政黨政治下的權力操作你認同這句話嗎\n\n10:12.031 --> 10:31.691\n我覺得我們的那個週休二日的問題實際上我剛剛前面已經講在修法20162017年修法之後事實上週休二日的企業家數跟勞工人數都有提升了所以你覺得這兩件事要不要掛鉤週休二日跟七天假這兩件事要不要掛鉤在一起這話誰講你知道嗎\n\n10:34.156 --> 10:52.847\n請說這話是你的長官講今天沒有來所以派你代理啊這是我們洪三安部長講的是他以前做立法委員的時候幫勞工講話的時候他說七天假的議題不應該跟週休二日掛鉤啊你不應該因為為了推動週休二日就砍掉七天假嘛這其實就是勞工朋友也是現在工時很長勞工朋友們心中的痛嘛對不對所以他當初有這樣子的一個初衷我都很肯定他\n\n10:53.527 --> 11:21.901\n所以過去我在勞動部在未完委員會質詢他的時候我也跟他討論過這個問題他說他願意有開放心態來面對至少今天次長你今天的心態也是用開放心態來面對我認為這都是往前走的一個方法所以我蠻贊成這個概念這不應該掛鉤但我要再問也有人講說從來就沒有所謂七天假要不要還的問題因為七天假是沒有落實週休二日的時候馬總統那個時候提出的所以落實的時候就要取消請問這是不是掛鉤這是不是把週休二日跟七天假兩件事掛在一起\n\n11:22.941 --> 11:37.352\n這要看怎麼看我剛剛已經講了我們在修法以後其實週休日的企業家數跟勞工人數都有提升了所以到底這句話是不是代表要掛在一起看對不對他說沒有砍七天價的問題因為這個本來就是週休日的配套這是不是就是掛鉤\n\n11:39.090 --> 11:54.241\n那這句話誰講的你知道嗎請說是你長官的長官叫卓榮泰院長講的好現在問題來我就請你所以我就委屈你一點啦但是現在我們的勞動部部長曾經主張這件事情不要掛鉤行政院長又把這件事情要掛鉤那請問到底是要掛鉤還是不要掛鉤\n\n11:55.253 --> 12:17.704\n我們覺得還是要站在勞工的實際的工時狀況來考慮而且各行各業的營運模式還有工作狀況都不一樣要通盤檢討所以要站在實際的工時的狀況來考慮回到全民到底台灣的勞工有沒有過勞的狀況我們的上班族需不需要多一點喘息的時間是不是回到這個問題的核心來做處理很好這個其實就是我們排審的原因\n\n12:17.964 --> 12:38.249\n我們認為就是要因為剛剛不管這個數字是OECD的也好或者是怎麼樣或者是來自人民的感受也好或者是來自民意調查的數據支持也好其實我要透過這場質詢強調的就是大部分台灣的民意是希望增加國定假日的天數的對不對國定假日的強度一定高過於特休啦我本來想要問你你支持週休三日\n\n12:40.107 --> 13:07.849\n有些歐洲國家在實驗中其實每次有這個話題的時候台灣的勞工有些都蠻高興的為什麼因為累嘛希望多一點時間休息所以週休三日出來的時候大家說我們會不會試用政府說沒有辦法試用對不對因為畢竟是一個很大膽的嘗試對不對很多人就講說那你真的要特休啊可是就很多人跳出來講我特休年資的問題我有看得到吃不到的這樣一個問題所以說為什麼我們如果要讓勞工立刻的可以享受到工時減少多一點喘息的時間我們要從國定價值下手嘛\n\n13:08.913 --> 13:36.030\n市長你應該不會反對這樣的看法我剛剛已經有回答過就是讓勞工的工時適度的縮減讓勞工休息增加國定假日之外其實還有就是他的加班工時如何適度的減少那這個就我們的調查有一些特定行業像製造業運輸倉儲業他的加班工時是在各行業裡面比較長的那這跟他的營運模式有很大關係那這個部分我們也透過各種方式希望能夠把它削減一點\n\n13:36.801 --> 13:57.121\n這本席在這邊表達一下我們的立場就是說各種方式只要能夠讓台灣的勞工不要再過勞我們都會支持然後你也可以互相搭配沒有問題但我們希望政府有態度如果政府沒有態度那只好立法院先走其實不外乎就是如此而已好不好希望次長也好部長也好好好準備謝謝好謝謝謝謝牛徐廷召委也謝謝李政次接下來\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.084,"end":27.264,"text":"好 謝謝主席內政部部長有請請劉順寬部長好 莊委好劉部長辛苦了這個今年2月25號我們這個吳世耀委員在大院提出總質詢的時候其實曾經有詢問過您也有詢問過我們卓榮泰院長是否要針對國定假日的這個法案提出修法的對岸的一個版本還是說請向透過行政命令的方式來處理"},{"start":28.445,"end":42.735,"text":"部長那時候的回答是說希望可以維持現狀因為各委員會的版本這剛剛其實都說過了有不同的意見有待整合勞基法修法後的公實已經齊平等等法案的推動要有共識說法也不一樣如果變成法律案會有爭議那當然嘛經過這個雖然喔"},{"start":47.096,"end":76.162,"text":"已經也沒有多久但也經過了一段時間到現在快一個月了請問部長態度有改變嗎你今天還是用一樣的說法來回應大家的我今天的報告就講得非常的清楚我覺得爭議仍然很大但是裡面有一塊我剛剛提到了第一個目的失業主管機關也就是說大家比較在乎的所謂的要不要勞動節那一天全國放假這個議題分成兩個層次第一個在我們的節日的實施辦法裡面勞動節那一天勞動者就是放假"},{"start":77.142,"end":104.839,"text":"不是勞動者也就是說廣泛來講沒有領到沒有用勞保的這些軍公教的人要不要跟著一起放假但是我提到了如果要一起放假的話要有共識這個共識就是要跟人事行政總處大家來交換意見所以院長在聽到我們報告的時候特別提到我們保持開放的態度看用什麼方式來解決但是因為剛剛可能有幾位委員有提到過今年的放假日在去年年底的時候已經公布了"},{"start":105.219,"end":123.997,"text":"包括補班日大家也都執行了像今年的春節就是這樣子那明年的話我們還有一段時間我希望說可以讓它可以和緩大家會有共識出來然後不要變成是朝野對立或是政黨對立的議題所以目前我在回答委員的問題的時候幾乎都是站在這樣的立場做回應我覺得時間有限"},{"start":127.26,"end":145.474,"text":"這個你說不希望這樣子的題目變成朝野的對立也不希望變成政治性的題目這一點本席敬表尊重其實也表達同意但其實在行訴共識的過程之中總要有各個不同的版本來做討論嘛不瞞不長講啦這個在野黨提案的委員數量雖然多但在野黨當然也會做所謂的法案整合嘛"},{"start":145.914,"end":156.141,"text":"所以到進入大體討論甚至到主條討論之前它的版本當然就會再做精簡但是我要問既然我們今天要追尋的是盡量求這件事情的圓滿那麼請問執政黨這一端它會不會有版本這個其實是大家很關心的問題"},{"start":161.844,"end":179.12,"text":"之前曾經有媒體有報導說可能行政院會有所謂的院版請問到底有沒有這樣的規劃因為就我本席了解這個勞團前一陣子也到行政院去陳情嘛所以希望看到有院版的這樣一個機會那如果院版的內容當然就由內政部來做主責嘛你會不會增加放假的天數還是說從頭到尾現在就是沒有院版"},{"start":179.6,"end":200.7,"text":"我們總之要把這件事情釐清一下如果有院版我們早就提供出來給委員參考了也就是說行政院在內部考量的時候呢他變成是所有的部會都要提供他們的意見那院長呢還是保持開放的態度因為我們都知道說這裡面呢除了特定的特殊身份的族群以外還有一些是屬於世代的差距"},{"start":201.821,"end":218.494,"text":"所謂的世代差距的話譬如說年紀比較大的覺得說何必放假那年紀比較輕的就是趕快放假包括228我們是紀念日也把它當成是慶祝228所以事實上就會有點沒有辦法有一個共識出來所以你的意思就是不會有認版也不會提"},{"start":218.834,"end":246.538,"text":"目前為止沒有院版但是我們也就是我們希望維持現狀啦維持現在的實施辦法也就是維持現在的實施辦法剛剛部長喔在講實施辦法的時候當然就是說速度比較快比較有彈性對不對不過我也要提醒部長一個比較殘酷的事實啦我們今天站在這邊當然是要幫勞工朋友講話嘛就是說節日與紀念日的這個實施辦法在以行政命令的層級由行政機關來主管的情況下就本席的了解從來沒有幫勞工增加假日啦砍掉倒是速度挺快的但是都沒有增加嘛"},{"start":246.769,"end":272.748,"text":"抱歉這個不是在節日實施辦法裡面這樣做的我們節日實施辦法勞動節本來就是一個我不是講勞動節我講就是國定假日的天數嘛你現在是不是行政命令可以處理如果今天我們的政府非常有誠意而且很快願意還給勞工七天假你今天行政命令一下去七天假就還來了嘛我還是一再跟各位委員報告沒有所謂的還我勞工七天假這樣的議題至少在行政部門裡面從來不會出現還我勞工七天假因為這是一個政治議題"},{"start":274.249,"end":293.302,"text":"我們不希望說用這個朝野對峙的方式來處理有關勞工放假的議題這不是朝野的問題啦還勞工七天假其實是勞工團體跟很多勞工朋友期待的那個我尊重但是不是行政院的主張我們回到法理上面來講是不是現在透過行政命令的方式你其實就可以增加國定假日的天數其實是對不對"},{"start":294.062,"end":311.922,"text":"但是過去這段時間不一定你又有理由又有意義啊你要紀念什麼你什麼樣的紀念日什麼樣的節日你要講清楚你不能隨便一個你講的是理由對不對你不能隨便一個拜拜隨便一個初一十五就要放假啊我只是要釐清一個事實就是你在有這樣的權限的情況之下基於你的各種理由反正就是沒有增加"},{"start":312.703,"end":327.712,"text":"我們的權限沒有委員所提到的那麼大我們的權限送到行政院去的時候要有很多不同的部會包括人事行政總部甚至包括權序部都要提供給我們意見我們才能把它放下去所以其實政府部門的彈性其實也沒有想像中那麼大"},{"start":328.072,"end":344.575,"text":"所以如果民間尤其是民意調查的數字已經顯示有超過六成的人非常希望增加國定價值的天數真正不贊成增加天數的人大概只有不到百分之二十那在這樣子的一個主流民意的驅動下行政機關還是寸步難行那我只好透過立法院修法的方式來處理"},{"start":345.576,"end":373.317,"text":"報告委員民意調查的部分如果民意調查認為說七成以上的人希望我們的租金補助不要刪除但是我們在立法院裡面還是被刪跟凍啦那我覺得也非常遺憾部長第一個你的預算附議案沒有辦法過關的時候我是沒有辦法處理解凍案的第二個凍結跟刪除好像不太一樣你做過立法委員這我們就不多講不要岔開話題部長你一直講說要凝聚共識對不對針對國定價值的天數也好或者是一些內容跟意涵也好請問從去年啊"},{"start":374.037,"end":393.264,"text":"這個我們的公聽會到了現在內政部有沒有針對各部會也好或行政院這個平台收集了哪些意見開過幾次會什麼層級參加有沒有初步的共識或方向聽起來是沒有有嗎報告委員應該是這樣子就是院長在很多這個大小的會議裡面如果有人是行政總處或者是勞動部的時候都會提到這個問題"},{"start":394.344,"end":401.289,"text":"但是我們在滾動式的調整當中會認為說現在這樣的時間還沒有成熟或是說現在這個時間還沒有共識你居然對外講的話並不是一個好的現象反而會置私欲焚所以我們寧可讓他再長一點的時間來做討論讓他有共識但是我剛有提到我們不希望變成是在野黨或者是執政黨之間的一個政黨的紛爭然後讓他可以好好的落幕"},{"start":422.502,"end":443.563,"text":"部長不希望這個事情再變成政治吵架的一個題目但是我也要如實反映勞工的心聲勞工的心聲都不希望這件事情再只是不管是藍也好綠也好白也好政治人物在選舉時候的承諾但選後沒有任何作為本期今天會去排審這樣的一個法案因為現在之後執行適用的期間是明年不是今年啊所以我們剛剛有提到適用的期間在法條上是可以規定的啊"},{"start":443.683,"end":472.592,"text":"今年的人事行政總署在去年年底的時候已經對外宣告多少放假日還有補班日那是因為現在的所以現在如果這個法律案通過的話不能夠馬上適用你看你行政命令的時候你想執行的事情你就執行的很愉快但是我們想要增加假日的時候你就裹住沒有 按照行政程序我們是按照行政程序法來執行所有的相關規定你要回答我的問題就是剛剛很多委員都講說我們要有我們要有社會共識請問你覺得到什麼樣的程度叫做社會有共識"},{"start":475.963,"end":499.531,"text":"這個放假的這件事情不曉得委員所提的是哪一項沒有就放假比如說天數也好或是哪幾天要放假到底什麼樣的程度叫社會有共識全台灣所有2300萬人一次同意叫有共識還是說其實只要大部分人可以接受他就叫有共識大部分人能夠接受但是我要提一下但是大部分人能夠接受不是完全用這個民粹的想法所謂的民粹的想法我放假越多天越好"},{"start":500.091,"end":517.849,"text":"我今天講你講說怕變成流於民粹這個本席不反對但問題就是因為這樣所以我今天要問你一個標準我們也不希望為了特定團體也不希望為了特定團體然後講還我勞工七天假然後綁架勞工說五月一號要全國放假我們已經講過了五月一號本來全國勞工就放假"},{"start":518.45,"end":530.544,"text":"部長這對這一段時間一直每一次在街頭上大聲疾呼希望可以減少工時讓勞工休息的團體而言你這樣講話實在對他們實在非常傷心老師我剛剛有提到了不要為了特定團體來處理全國放假的事情所以你認為這個事情"},{"start":535.509,"end":539.49,"text":"因為它是需要一個很簡單的我們願意跟他們溝通但是不是用這樣的方式放假多少天不要說勞動團體都這樣想應該是說全國的人認為放假的天數這樣可能不夠我們希望多放假幾天那放什麼節日或放什麼假日我們再來講所以我剛剛有特別提到這是一個層次的問題不要用假日、節日、紀念日然後說一定要放假因為這個差太遠"},{"start":564.774,"end":589.61,"text":"我們現在就要多放31天假部長你不希望用 只是用勞工團體的聲音所以剛剛旭貞委員其實就已經提出了全國的民意調查嘛都還是有六成多人支持啦所以我們說我們保持開放的態度啊我沒有說現在不可以放假啊但是今年已經來不及了今天大家用開放的態度討論其實慢慢慢慢有共識法條還會有後續的審議啦好 大家也會做版本的整合請你做好準備好 部長休息一下我請勞動部次長"},{"start":595.367,"end":596.749,"text":"請勞動部次長這個有人曾經說過七天假不應該跟周秀恩這個議題掛鉤這兩者掛鉤在一起是政黨政治下的權力操作你認同這句話嗎"},{"start":612.031,"end":631.691,"text":"我覺得我們的那個週休二日的問題實際上我剛剛前面已經講在修法20162017年修法之後事實上週休二日的企業家數跟勞工人數都有提升了所以你覺得這兩件事要不要掛鉤週休二日跟七天假這兩件事要不要掛鉤在一起這話誰講你知道嗎"},{"start":634.156,"end":652.847,"text":"請說這話是你的長官講今天沒有來所以派你代理啊這是我們洪三安部長講的是他以前做立法委員的時候幫勞工講話的時候他說七天假的議題不應該跟週休二日掛鉤啊你不應該因為為了推動週休二日就砍掉七天假嘛這其實就是勞工朋友也是現在工時很長勞工朋友們心中的痛嘛對不對所以他當初有這樣子的一個初衷我都很肯定他"},{"start":653.527,"end":681.901,"text":"所以過去我在勞動部在未完委員會質詢他的時候我也跟他討論過這個問題他說他願意有開放心態來面對至少今天次長你今天的心態也是用開放心態來面對我認為這都是往前走的一個方法所以我蠻贊成這個概念這不應該掛鉤但我要再問也有人講說從來就沒有所謂七天假要不要還的問題因為七天假是沒有落實週休二日的時候馬總統那個時候提出的所以落實的時候就要取消請問這是不是掛鉤這是不是把週休二日跟七天假兩件事掛在一起"},{"start":682.941,"end":697.352,"text":"這要看怎麼看我剛剛已經講了我們在修法以後其實週休日的企業家數跟勞工人數都有提升了所以到底這句話是不是代表要掛在一起看對不對他說沒有砍七天價的問題因為這個本來就是週休日的配套這是不是就是掛鉤"},{"start":699.09,"end":714.241,"text":"那這句話誰講的你知道嗎請說是你長官的長官叫卓榮泰院長講的好現在問題來我就請你所以我就委屈你一點啦但是現在我們的勞動部部長曾經主張這件事情不要掛鉤行政院長又把這件事情要掛鉤那請問到底是要掛鉤還是不要掛鉤"},{"start":715.253,"end":737.704,"text":"我們覺得還是要站在勞工的實際的工時狀況來考慮而且各行各業的營運模式還有工作狀況都不一樣要通盤檢討所以要站在實際的工時的狀況來考慮回到全民到底台灣的勞工有沒有過勞的狀況我們的上班族需不需要多一點喘息的時間是不是回到這個問題的核心來做處理很好這個其實就是我們排審的原因"},{"start":737.964,"end":758.249,"text":"我們認為就是要因為剛剛不管這個數字是OECD的也好或者是怎麼樣或者是來自人民的感受也好或者是來自民意調查的數據支持也好其實我要透過這場質詢強調的就是大部分台灣的民意是希望增加國定假日的天數的對不對國定假日的強度一定高過於特休啦我本來想要問你你支持週休三日"},{"start":760.107,"end":787.849,"text":"有些歐洲國家在實驗中其實每次有這個話題的時候 台灣的勞工有些都蠻高興的為什麼 因為累嘛 希望多一點時間休息所以週休三日出來的時候 大家說我們會不會試用政府說沒有辦法試用 對不對因為畢竟是一個很大膽的嘗試對不對 很多人就講說那你真的要特休啊可是就很多人跳出來講我特休年資的問題我有看得到吃不到的這樣一個問題所以說為什麼我們如果要讓勞工立刻的可以享受到工時減少 多一點喘息的時間我們要從國定價值下手嘛"},{"start":788.913,"end":816.03,"text":"市長你應該不會反對這樣的看法我剛剛已經有回答過就是讓勞工的工時適度的縮減讓勞工休息增加國定假日之外其實還有就是他的加班工時如何適度的減少那這個就我們的調查有一些特定行業像製造業 運輸倉儲業他的加班工時是在各行業裡面比較長的那這跟他的營運模式有很大關係那這個部分我們也透過各種方式希望能夠把它削減一點"},{"start":816.801,"end":837.121,"text":"這本席在這邊表達一下我們的立場就是說各種方式只要能夠讓台灣的勞工不要再過勞我們都會支持然後你也可以互相搭配沒有問題但我們希望政府有態度如果政府沒有態度那只好立法院先走其實不外乎就是如此而已好不好希望次長也好部長也好好好準備謝謝好 謝謝謝謝牛徐廷召委也謝謝李政次接下來"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":788,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時36分）謝謝主席。有請內政部部長。"],["主席：請劉世芳部長。"],["劉部長世芳：召委好。"],["牛委員煦庭：劉部長，辛苦了！今年2月25號吳思瑤委員在院會提出總質詢的時候，曾經詢問過您，也有詢問過卓榮泰院長，是否要針對國定假日法案提出修法的對案版本，還是傾向透過行政命令的方式來處理？部長那時候的回答是希望可以維持現狀，剛剛其實都說過了，因為各委員的版本有不同的意見、有待整合，勞基法修法後的工時已經齊平等等，法案的推動要有共識，說法也不一樣，如果變成法律案會有爭議。雖然沒有多久，但也經過了一段時間，到現在快一個月，請問部長態度有改變嗎？你今天還是會用一樣的說法來回應大家的期待嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我今天的報告就講得非常清楚，我覺得爭議仍然很大，但是裡面有一塊我剛剛提到了，第一個、目的事業主管機關，也就是大家比較在乎的，所謂的勞動節那一天要不要全國放假，這個議題分成兩個層次，第一、在節日實施辦法裡面，勞動節那一天勞動者就是放假，不是勞動者，也就是廣泛來講，沒有用勞保的這些軍公教要不要跟著一起放假？但是我提到了，如果要一起放假要有共識，這個共識就是要跟人事行政總處，大家來交換意見，所以院長在聽到我們報告的時候有特別提到，我們保持開放的態度，看用什麼方式來解決。但是剛剛有幾位委員提過，今年的放假日在去年年底已經公布了，包括補班日，大家也都執行了，像今年的春節就是這樣。明年的話，我們還有一段時間，我希望讓它可以和緩，大家有共識出來，不要變成是朝野對立或政黨對立的議題。目前我在回答委員的問題的時候，幾乎都是站在這樣的立場回應。"],["牛委員煦庭：可以了，因為時間有限。你說不希望這樣的題目變成朝野對立，也不希望變成政治性的題目，這點本席敬表尊重，也表達同意。其實在形塑共識的過程之中，總要有各個不同的版本來討論，不瞞部長講，在野黨提案的委員數量雖然多，但在野黨當然也會做所謂的法案整合，所以到進入大體討論，甚至到逐條討論之前，版本當然會再精簡。但是我要問，既然我們今天要追尋的是儘量求這件事情的圓滿，那麼請問執政黨這一端會不會有版本？這個其實是大家很關心的問題。之前曾經有媒體有報導，行政院可能會有所謂的院版，請問到底有沒有這樣的規劃？因為就本席了解，勞團前一陣子也到行政院去陳情，說希望看到有院版這樣的機會，院版的內容當然就由內政部來主責，你會不會增加放假的天數？還是從頭到尾就是沒有院版？我們總是要把這個事情釐清一下。"],["劉部長世芳：如果有院版，我們早就提供出來給委員參考了。"],["牛委員煦庭：OK。"],["劉部長世芳：也就是行政院在內部考量的時候，變成是所有部會都要提供他們的意見，院長還是保持開放的態度，因為我們都知道這裡面，除了特定的、特殊身分的族群以外，還有一些是屬於世代差距，所謂的世代差距，譬如說，年紀比較大的覺得何必放假，年紀比較輕的就是趕快放假，包括二二八我們是紀念日，也把它當成是慶祝二二八，所以事實上就會有點沒有辦法有一個共識出來。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你的意思就是不會有院版，也不會提嘛，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：目前為止沒有院版，也就是我們希望維持現狀啦！維持現在的實施辦法。"],["牛委員煦庭：也就是維持現在的實施辦法？"],["劉部長世芳：對、對。"],["牛委員煦庭：剛剛部長在講實施辦法的時候，當然就是說速度比較快、比較有彈性，對不對？不過，我也要提醒部長一個比較殘酷的事實，我們今天站在這邊，當然是要幫勞工朋友講話，紀念日與節日實施辦法以行政命令的層級，由行政機關主管的情況下，就本席的瞭解，從來沒有幫勞工增加假日，砍掉倒是速度挺快的，但是都沒有增加嘛。"],["劉部長世芳：抱歉，這個不是在節日實施辦法裡面這樣做的，我們節日實施辦法，勞動節本來就是一個……"],["牛委員煦庭：我不是講勞動節，我講的是國定假日的天數，你現在是不是行政命令可以處理？如果今天我們的政府非常有誠意，而且很快的願意還給勞工7天假，你今天行政命令一下去，其實7天假就回來了，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：我還是一再跟各位委員報告，沒有所謂的還我勞工7天假這樣的議題，至少在行政部門裡面，從來不會出現還我勞工7天假，因為這是一個政治議題，我剛提到了，我們不希望用朝野對峙的方式來處理有關勞工放假的議題。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，這不是朝野的問題啦！還勞工7天假其實是勞工團體跟很多勞工朋友期待的、民間的議題，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：那個我尊重、那個我尊重。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，互相尊重。"],["劉部長世芳：但不是行政院的主張。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們回到法理上面來講，是不是現在透過行政命令的方式，你其實就可以增加國定假日的天數，其實是對不對？但是過去這一段時間有沒有增加？沒有嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：不一定，你要有理由、要有意義啊！你要紀念什麼？"],["牛委員煦庭：我們從法理的權力上，就是行政機關可以決定。"],["劉部長世芳：什麼樣的紀念日、什麼樣的節日，你要講清楚，你不能隨便一個拜拜、隨便一個初一十五就要放假啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：你講的是理由，對不對？我只是要釐清一個事實，就是你在有權限的情況之下，基於你的各種理由，反正就是沒有增加，對不對？這是一個事實。"],["劉部長世芳：我們的權限沒有委員所提到的那麼大，我們的權限送到行政院去的時候，要有很多不同的部會，包括人事行政總處，甚至包括銓敘部都要提供給我們意見，我們才能把它放下去。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以政府部門的彈性其實也沒有想像中那麼大，如果民間……"],["劉部長世芳：但是政府部門內部要整合。"],["牛委員煦庭：尤其是民意調查的數字已經顯示有超過六成的人非常希望增加國定假日天數，真正不贊成增加天數的人大概只有不到20%，在這樣主流民意的驅動下，行政機關還是寸步難行，我只好透過立法院修法的方式來處理，所以如果……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，如果民意調查認為七成以上的人希望我們的租金補助不要刪除，但是我們在立法院裡面還是被刪跟凍，我覺得也非常遺憾。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，第一個，你的預算覆議案沒有辦法過關的時候，我是沒有辦法處理解凍案的；第二個，凍結跟刪除好像不太一樣，你做過立法委員，這我們就不多講，不要岔開話題。部長，你一直講要凝聚共識，對不對？針對國定假日天數也好，或者是內容跟意涵也好，請問從去年我們的公聽會到現在，內政部有沒有針對各部會也好或行政院平臺蒐集哪些意見、開過幾次會、什麼層級參加，有沒有初步的共識或方向？聽起來是沒有，有嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，應該是這樣子，院長在很多大小會議裡面，如果有人事行政總處或者是勞動部的時候都會提到這個問題，但是我們在滾動式調整當中，會認為現在這樣的時間還沒有成熟，或是現在這個時間還沒有共識，你對外講的話並不是一個好的現象，反而會治絲益棼，所以我們寧可再長一點的時間來做討論，讓它有共識，但是我剛有提到，我們不希望變成是在野黨或者是執政黨之間的政黨紛爭，讓它可以好好地落幕。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，不希望這個事情再變成政治吵架的題目，但我也要如實反映勞工的心聲，不管是藍也好、綠也好、白也好，勞工的心聲都不希望這件事情只是政治人物在選舉時候的承諾，但選後沒有任何作為。本席今天會排審這樣的法案，就是希望有具體的……"],["劉部長世芳：因為下一次會執行、適用的期間是明年，不是今年啊！所以我們剛有提到還有5、6個月……"],["牛委員煦庭：適用的期間在法條上是可以規定的啊！"],["劉部長世芳：今年的人事行政總處在去年年底的時候，已經對外宣告多少放假日，還有補班日等等這些，所以現在如果這個法律案通過的話，不能夠馬上適用……"],["牛委員煦庭：那是因為現在不是法律位階，是行政命令，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：不可能因為5月1號到了，你就要去適用。"],["牛委員煦庭：你看是行政命令的時候，你想執行的事情，你就執行得很愉快，但是我們講到要增加假日的時候，你就裹足不前。我們不要再討論這個問題……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，我們是按照行政程序法來執行所有的相關規定。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長、部長，你要回答我的問題，剛剛很多委員都講我們要有社會共識，對放假的這件事情，請問你覺得到什麼樣的程度叫作社會有共識？"],["劉部長世芳：不曉得委員所提的是哪一項？"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有，就是放假，比如說天數也好，或是哪幾天要放假，到了什麼樣的程度叫社會有共識？全臺灣所有2,300萬人一致同意叫有共識？"],["劉部長世芳：全臺灣2,300萬人……"],["牛委員煦庭：還是說其實只要大部分人可以接受，它就叫有共識？"],["劉部長世芳：大部分人能夠接受，我要提一下，但是大部分能夠接受，不是完全用民粹的想法，所謂民粹的想法是我放假越多天越好。"],["牛委員煦庭：你講怕變成流於民粹，這個本席不反對，但問題就是因為這樣，所以我今天要問你一個標準，如果今天這個……"],["劉部長世芳：我們也不希望為了特定團體，然後講還我勞工7天放假，綁架勞工說5月1號要全國放假。我們已經講過了，5月1號本來全國勞工就放假，而且已經行之有年。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，這對這一段時間每一次在街頭上大聲疾呼，希望可以減少工時，讓勞工休息的團體而言，你這樣講話讓他們實在非常傷心，好啦！"],["劉部長世芳：不是，我剛剛有提到了，不要為了特定團體來處理全國放假的事宜，因為它是需要一個衡平……"],["牛委員煦庭：你認為這個事情是因為我們被特定團體綁架，所以要妥協全國，意思是這樣嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們願意跟他們溝通，但不是用這樣的方式，放假多少天，不要說勞動團體都這樣想，應該是說全國的人認為放假的天數這樣可能不夠，我們希望多放假幾天，那放什麼節日或放什麼假日，我們再來講，所以我剛剛有特別提到這是一個層次的問題，不要用假日、節日、紀念日，然後說一定要放假，因為這個差太遠，如果按照委員的版本，我們現在就要多放31天假。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，你不希望只是用勞工團體的聲音，剛剛許宇甄委員其實就已經提出全國的民意調查，都還是有六成多的人支持，我希望你認知到這個事實。"],["劉部長世芳：所以我們希望保持開放的態度，我沒有說現在不可以放假啊！但是今年已經來不及了。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，今天大家用開放的態度討論，其實慢慢會有共識，法條還會有後續的審議，大家也會做版本的整合，請你做好準備。部長休息一下，我請勞動部次長。"],["主席：請勞動部次長。"],["李次長健鴻：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：次長好。有人曾經說過7天假不應該跟週休二日這個議題掛鉤，這兩者掛鉤在一起是政黨政治下的權力操作，你認同這句話嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：我覺得週休二日的問題，事實上我剛剛前面已經講了，在2017年修法之後，事實上週休二日的企業家數跟勞工人數都有提升。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有，所以你覺得這兩件事要不要掛鉤？週休二日跟7天假這兩件事要不要掛鉤在一起？這話誰講的，你知道嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：請說。"],["牛委員煦庭：這話是你的長官講的，今天沒有來，所以派你代理，是洪申翰部長講的，他以前做立法委員的時候、幫勞工講話的時候，他說7天假的議題不應該跟週休二日掛鉤，你不應該為了推動週休二日，就砍掉7天假，這其實就是勞工朋友，也是現在工時很長的勞工朋友們心中的痛，對不對？所以他當初有這樣的初衷，我都很肯定他，所以過去我在勞動部、在衛環委員會質詢他的時候，我也跟他討論過這個問題，他說他願意用開放的心態來面對，至少今天次長，你今天的心態也是用開放心態來面對。"],["李次長健鴻：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我認為這都是往前走的方法，所以我滿贊成這個概念，這不應該掛鉤。但我要再問，也有人講從來就沒有所謂7天假要不要還的問題，因為7天假是沒有落實週休二日、馬總統那個時候提出的，所以落實的時候就要取消，請問這是不是掛鉤？這是不是把週休二日跟7天假兩件事掛在一起？"],["李次長健鴻：這要看怎麼看啊！我剛剛已經講了，我們在修法以後，其實週休二日的企業家數跟勞工人數都有提升。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以到底這句話是不是代表要掛在一起看，對不對？他說沒有砍7天假的問題，因為這個本來就是週休二日的配套，這是不是就是掛鉤？那這句話誰講的，你知道嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：請說。"],["牛委員煦庭：是你長官的長官，叫卓榮泰院長講的。好，現在問題來了，我就委屈你一點，但是現在我們的勞動部部長曾經主張這件事情不要掛鉤，行政院長又把這件事情要掛鉤，請問到底是要掛鉤，還是不要掛鉤？"],["李次長健鴻：我們覺得還是要站在勞工實際的工時狀況來考慮，而且各行各業的營運模式還有工作狀況都不一樣，要通盤檢討。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以要站在實際工時的狀況來考慮，對不對？回到全民，到底臺灣勞工有沒有過勞的狀況？我們的上班族需不需要多一點喘息時間？是不是回到這個問題的核心來做處理？"],["李次長健鴻：是，沒錯，對。"],["牛委員煦庭：很好，這個其實就是我們排審的原因。"],["李次長健鴻：我們認為就是要……"],["牛委員煦庭：不管這個數字是OECD的也好，或者是怎麼樣，或者是來自人民感受也好，或者是來自民意調查的數據支持也好，我要透過這場質詢強調的，就是大部分臺灣的民意是希望增加國定假日的天數，對不對？國定假日的強度一定高過於特休，我本來想要問你，你支不支持週休三日，支持嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：有一些歐洲國家在實驗中。"],["牛委員煦庭：已經在嘗試了，對不對？其實每次有這個話題的時候，臺灣的勞工有些都滿高興的，為什麼？因為累嘛，希望多一點時間休息，所以週休三日出來之後，大家說我們會不會適用？政府說沒有辦法適用，畢竟是一個很大膽的嘗試，對不對？很多人就講那你增加特休啊！可是就有很多人跳出來講他特休有年資的問題、有看得到吃不到這樣的問題，所以這是為什麼我們如果要讓勞工立刻可以享受到工時減少，多一點喘息的時間，我們要從國定假日下手嘛！次長，你應該不會反對這樣的看法吧？"],["李次長健鴻：委員，我剛剛已經有回答過，就是讓勞工的工時適度縮減，讓勞工休息增加，國定假日之外，其實還有他的加班工時如何適度減少，這個就我們的調查，有一些特定行業，像製造業、運輸倉儲業的加班工時是在各行業裡面比較長的，這跟它的營運模式有很大的關係，這個部分我們也透過各種方式希望能夠把它削減一點。"],["牛委員煦庭：本席在這邊表達一下我們的立場，就是各種方式只要能夠讓臺灣的勞工不要再過勞，我們都會支持。"],["李次長健鴻：是，當然。"],["牛委員煦庭：然後你也可以互相搭配，沒有問題，但我們希望政府有態度，如果政府沒有態度，只好立法院先走，其實不外乎就是如此而已，好不好？希望次長也好，部長也好，好好準備，謝謝。"],["李次長健鴻：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭召委，也謝謝李政次。","接下來我們請吳琪銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-3","speakers":["牛煦庭","洪孟楷","張智倫","陳玉珍","賴士葆","高金素梅","翁曉玲","林倩綺","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","李坤城","葉元之","陳瑩"],"page_start":317,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；二、審查委員高金素梅等18人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條\n例草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法\n草案」案；五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；六、審查委員陳\n玉珍等16 人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案；七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「國家紀念日及\n節日實施法草案」案；九、審查委員王鴻薇等19 人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；\n十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施\n條例草案」案；十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十四、審\n查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具\n「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實\n施條例草案」案；十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十八、\n審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬\n具「國定假日法草案」案；二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"1142701_00007"}}}