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\"你們的水溶性塗料含量你們是去做市場調查喔這些數據歷年來檢測數據統計是去做後市場調查就現有的市場去蒐集資料蒐集資料看得出來你們要研擬一個限值的管制你們最右欄VOC的含量限值建議指你們未來想要的管制方法\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 440.814, \"end\": 441.194, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 441.194, \"end\": 441.374, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 441.374, \"end\": 441.574, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"溶\", \"start\": 441.574, \"end\": 441.794, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 441.794, \"end\": 442.194, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"塗\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 442.194, \"end\": 442.755, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"含\", \"start\": 442.755, \"end\": 442.975, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 442.975, \"end\": 443.555, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 443.555, \"end\": 443.835, \"score\": 0.669}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 443.835, \"end\": 444.135, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 444.135, \"end\": 444.315, \"score\": 0.753}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 444.315, \"end\": 444.515, \"score\": 0.734}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 444.515, \"end\": 444.995, \"score\": 0.648}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 444.995, \"end\": 445.255, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"喔\", \"start\": 445.255, \"end\": 446.216, \"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 446.216, \"end\": 447.636, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"歷\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 447.636, \"end\": 448.717, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"測\"}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 448.717, \"end\": 450.077, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 450.077, \"end\": 450.337, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 450.337, \"end\": 450.597, \"score\": 0.763}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 450.597, \"end\": 450.777, \"score\": 0.685}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 450.777, \"end\": 451.337, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 451.337, \"end\": 451.577, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 451.577, \"end\": 451.958, \"score\": 0.764}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 451.958, \"end\": 452.098, \"score\": 0.737}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 452.098, \"end\": 452.218, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 452.218, \"end\": 452.558, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 452.558, \"end\": 453.098, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"蒐\"}, {\"word\": \"集\", \"start\": 453.098, \"end\": 453.458, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 453.458, \"end\": 454.758, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"蒐\"}, {\"word\": \"集\", \"start\": 454.758, \"end\": 455.079, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 455.079, \"end\": 455.239, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"看\", 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\"score\": 0.627}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 460.18, \"end\": 460.32, \"score\": 0.588}, {\"word\": \"右\", \"start\": 460.32, \"end\": 460.34, \"score\": 0.509}, {\"word\": \"欄\"}, {\"word\": \"V\", \"start\": 460.34, \"end\": 461.201, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"O\", \"start\": 461.201, \"end\": 461.601, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"C\", \"start\": 461.601, \"end\": 461.841, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 461.841, \"end\": 462.021, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"含\", \"start\": 462.021, \"end\": 462.201, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 462.201, \"end\": 462.461, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"限\", \"start\": 462.461, \"end\": 462.741, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"值\", \"start\": 462.741, \"end\": 463.041, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 463.041, \"end\": 463.461, \"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 463.461, \"end\": 463.601, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 463.601, \"end\": 463.821, \"score\": 0.637}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"未\", \"start\": 463.821, \"end\": 464.201, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 464.201, \"end\": 464.342, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 464.342, \"end\": 464.422, \"score\": 0.517}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 464.422, \"end\": 464.562, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 464.562, \"end\": 464.762, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 464.762, \"end\": 464.942, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 464.942, \"end\": 465.182, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 465.182, \"end\": 465.202, \"score\": 0.997}]}, {\"start\": 465.982, \"end\": 482.79, \"text\": \"你去市場收集 比如說第一它第75個 百分之75都是69的單位了那你就會建議說 那我就定為70市場目前69 大多數都69 我就定70市場大部分都是514第二欄 我就建議500那你看一下 如果市場大部分都是692\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 465.982, \"end\": 466.162, \"score\": 0.578}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 466.162, \"end\": 466.382, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 479.289, \"end\": 479.309, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 479.309, \"end\": 479.429, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 479.429, \"end\": 479.469, \"score\": 0.276}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 479.469, \"end\": 479.489, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 479.489, \"end\": 479.649, \"score\": 0.703}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 479.649, \"end\": 479.789, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 479.789, \"end\": 479.909, \"score\": 0.763}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 479.909, \"end\": 480.069, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"欄\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 480.069, \"end\": 480.189, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 480.189, \"end\": 480.209, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 480.209, \"end\": 480.409, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}]}, {\"start\": 494.557, \"end\": 512.432, \"text\": \"那你就想說 你就趨近於CNS標準變500就是一類的 溶劑型的然後你再看 你定的標準就是G類的溶劑型的市場75%都是668你就定了一個450 跟CNS標準一樣\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 494.557, \"end\": 494.757, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 494.757, \"end\": 494.937, \"score\": 0.718}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 494.937, \"end\": 495.378, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 495.378, \"end\": 495.918, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 495.918, \"end\": 496.038, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 496.038, \"end\": 496.459, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"趨\"}, {\"word\": \"近\", \"start\": 496.459, \"end\": 496.619, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 496.619, \"end\": 497.079, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"C\", \"start\": 497.079, \"end\": 497.279, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"N\", \"start\": 497.279, \"end\": 497.419, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"S\", 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506.787, \"end\": 506.928, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 506.928, \"end\": 508.289, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"%\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 508.289, \"end\": 508.429, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 508.429, \"end\": 509.71, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 509.71, \"end\": 509.87, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 509.87, \"end\": 510.09, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 510.09, \"end\": 510.23, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 510.23, \"end\": 510.35, \"score\": 0.718}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 510.35, \"end\": 511.331, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 511.331, \"end\": 511.571, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"C\", \"start\": 511.571, \"end\": 511.812, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"N\", \"start\": 511.812, \"end\": 511.912, \"score\": 0.765}, {\"word\": \"S\", \"start\": 511.912, \"end\": 512.272, \"score\": 0.771}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 512.272, \"end\": 512.412, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 512.412, \"end\": 512.432, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}]}, {\"start\": 513.533, \"end\": 534.667, \"text\": \"我們的意思是什麼 意思是說 你其實是就市場 牽制於市場然後頂多是訂到CNS標準 那你看歐盟的標準這些歐盟的標準 你們其實遠遠的落後於歐盟的標準看得出來啦 其實都是牽制於這個市場標準\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 513.533, \"end\": 513.813, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 513.813, \"end\": 513.933, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 513.933, \"end\": 514.113, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 514.113, \"end\": 514.294, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 514.294, \"end\": 514.454, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 514.454, \"end\": 515.314, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"意\", 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\"start\": 520.478, \"end\": 520.718, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"頂\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 520.718, \"end\": 521.058, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 521.058, \"end\": 521.398, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"訂\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 521.398, \"end\": 521.738, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"C\", \"start\": 521.738, \"end\": 522.099, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"N\", \"start\": 522.099, \"end\": 522.279, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"S\", \"start\": 522.279, \"end\": 522.699, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 522.699, \"end\": 523.54, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 523.54, \"end\": 523.68, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 523.68, \"end\": 523.78, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 523.78, \"end\": 524.02, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"歐\", \"start\": 524.02, \"end\": 524.2, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"盟\", \"start\": 524.2, \"end\": 524.36, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 524.36, \"end\": 524.72, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 524.72, \"end\": 525.161, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 525.161, \"end\": 525.321, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"歐\", \"start\": 525.321, \"end\": 525.481, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"盟\", \"start\": 525.481, \"end\": 525.581, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 525.581, \"end\": 525.921, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 525.921, \"end\": 526.662, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 526.662, \"end\": 526.982, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 526.982, \"end\": 527.762, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"遠\"}, {\"word\": \"遠\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 527.762, \"end\": 527.882, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"落\", \"start\": 527.882, \"end\": 528.083, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 528.083, \"end\": 528.263, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 528.263, \"end\": 528.423, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"歐\", \"start\": 528.423, \"end\": 528.583, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"盟\", \"start\": 528.583, \"end\": 528.763, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 528.763, \"end\": 529.123, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 529.123, \"end\": 530.604, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 530.604, \"end\": 530.764, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 530.764, \"end\": 530.904, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 530.904, \"end\": 531.345, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 531.345, \"end\": 531.585, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 531.585, \"end\": 531.865, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 531.865, \"end\": 532.005, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 532.005, \"end\": 532.485, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": 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\"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,109 --> 00:00:01,429\n謝謝主席,是不是請我們彭部長來請部長\n\n2\n00:00:28,499 --> 00:00:53,869\n林委員好部長好其實大家今天談很多但我想要談一個制度面的就想要跟你討論一下這個消費性產品的VOCS排放你的管制工具不足那其實這樣的空瓶跟國人健康更是息息相關的這個制度面那大家都知道非花訊那個\n\n3\n00:00:55,810 --> 00:01:22,831\n揮發性有機化合物就VOCS是形成臭氧和PM2.5的重要的前驅物質它會導致空氣品質惡化也會嚴重的危害國人的健康但是如果我們不要講固定污染源和移動污染源我們扣除了固定污染源和移動污染源根據你們自己的說法和統計\n\n4\n00:01:24,392 --> 00:01:40,687\n消費性的商品含有VOCS的排放量一年大概有18.7萬噸但是很驚人的這樣的排放量你看它是佔我國VOCS排放總量的41%這是你們最新的數據41%\n\n5\n00:01:43,169 --> 00:01:53,743\n那換句話說它已經是成為就你們這一張圖來看它是成為我國VOCS排放量的最大來源之一超過許多的工業\n\n6\n00:01:55,222 --> 00:02:00,726\n污染源的排放也超過了這個移動污染源你看這張表它就是獨樹一格那消費性的商品包括我們大家而且都跟個人消費行為有關法膠清潔產品噴漆黏著劑發香劑建物的塗料等等\n\n7\n00:02:14,915 --> 00:02:31,428\n所以它是跟人民的生活息息相關的緊密的聯合在一起的而且它對個人的健康的風險影響也非常大的而且大多數都是在室內使用的所以呢每年使用這麼大量的上億個的這樣的消費性的商品累計造成的這個不良的影響非常的驚人\n\n8\n00:02:36,872 --> 00:02:55,380\n那如果講環境的話這個人健康影響非常大那講環境我剛剛講了它就是臭氧還有PM2.5的重要的前去物質所以它也是我國空氣品質不良的主要污染物之一可是你們管制了什麼保電有靈觀這下\n\n9\n00:02:57,017 --> 00:03:08,561\n報告委員其實這個問題我去年年底的時候剛好去東京看了一個展看到日本的東京都他就針對這個VOC有一個非常大的攤位就是剛剛委員對啦看了這個展以後對你的影響是什麼對你們在政策上的回饋是什麼\n\n10\n00:03:13,904 --> 00:03:28,859\n隨即就有跟我們大氣師在討論那目前來看的話我們是針對這個塗料的非灰性的這個VOC的進行一個管制但是我們發現還有生活還有很多例如說我們噴髮膠等等的都有在裡面啦\n\n11\n00:03:29,079 --> 00:03:48,095\n你這樣講當然講得很好聽啊就是說你們現在目前納管的就是建物還有工業維護塗料中的三類別和五種塗料你們訂出了VOCS成分的限職規定那包括室內的牆壁啦天花板用的塗料啦和室外的牆壁用的塗料\n\n12\n00:03:50,077 --> 00:04:08,354\n就是你們分類裡面的C1C2還有C3這種類別但是這樣子有限的管制措施你們的預期可以達到多少的排放量的目標管制你知道嗎包委員就是你上面說的他大概佔了大概十幾二十幾左右沒有啦\n\n13\n00:04:09,659 --> 00:04:20,146\n沒有到那麼高因為我說消費性的這一個總排放量是18.7萬噸消費性商品可是你的管制起來你們預期達到的是18.7萬你這樣預期的管制目標只有2000噸\n\n14\n00:04:27,711 --> 00:04:50,557\n佔建物塗料VOCS排放量的6%然後離有效控制消費性商品VOCS排放量的目標相去甚遠更令人擔心的是我們知道這裡面佔最多比的是一般和其他消費性商品而不只是你這裡管制的工業和建物使用的塗料\n\n15\n00:04:51,357 --> 00:05:04,971\n更多的是跟人民洗洗相關的消費性商品像液體清潔劑法用的化妝品空氣清新劑這種管制的速度非常的慢而且沒有具體的管制標準保證\n\n16\n00:05:07,262 --> 00:05:22,353\n這樣要怎麼辦報告委員因為這個問題我有去跟我們同仁討論過第一個是他的項目非常非常的多元而且是整個體系要去做一個很大的改變所以我們也在真的在蒐集資料說例如說日本是怎麼管制的因為他那個生活環境\n\n17\n00:05:24,534 --> 00:05:41,540\n我先就建物塗料的管制來就教育你因為你已經選擇了也要優先從建物塗料開始先優先去管啊但是你的管理的制度根本是市場導向而不是基於健康環境和科學的數據\n\n18\n00:05:42,881 --> 00:05:57,997\n你人家問你說你是不是經濟部的小弟啊你說你不是小弟可是我們來看你到底是不是小弟從制度面來檢驗嘛你們在108年上8月你還沒上任就公告了建物及工業維護塗料\n\n19\n00:06:00,299 --> 00:06:16,248\n揮發性有機物的存分標準你們第一階段就是優先要針對CNS15080CNS都有標準啦不過它是一個參考而不是一個強制性的嘛那在這個裡面CNS裡面CNS158012類的塗料種類你只要納你現在只納管ABC\n\n20\n00:06:22,651 --> 00:06:26,241\n然後現在這個DEF這種你通通都沒有有沒有CNS的所有塗料的種類玉琴有沒有\n\n21\n00:06:31,530 --> 00:06:54,677\nOK沒關係你只納管了室內牆壁室內天花板還有室外牆壁用塗料其他的DEFG就是這些通通沒有都沒有納管然後造成大量的VOCS排放到大器當中那你們委外有研究報告喔除了DD類就是室內外的木器金屬塑膠用的修飾和保護塗料\n\n22\n00:06:55,897 --> 00:07:18,209\n還有FF就是你們室內外最小模後木材著色料I單一型塗料K多彩塗料L裝飾效果塗料anyway這些都是建物的這個12大類的塗料建物和工業使用的這個塗料你們的管制是這樣子管制的來看一下\n\n23\n00:07:20,814 --> 00:07:45,202\n你們的水溶性塗料含量你們是去做市場調查喔這些數據歷年來檢測數據統計是去做後市場調查就現有的市場去蒐集資料蒐集資料看得出來你們要研擬一個限值的管制你們最右欄VOC的含量限值建議指你們未來想要的管制方法\n\n24\n00:07:45,982 --> 00:08:02,790\n你去市場收集比如說第一它第75個百分之75都是69的單位了那你就會建議說那我就定為70市場目前69大多數都69我就定70市場大部分都是514第二欄我就建議500那你看一下如果市場大部分都是692\n\n25\n00:08:14,557 --> 00:08:32,432\n那你就想說你就趨近於CNS標準變500就是一類的溶劑型的然後你再看你定的標準就是G類的溶劑型的市場75%都是668你就定了一個450跟CNS標準一樣\n\n26\n00:08:33,533 --> 00:08:54,667\n我們的意思是什麼意思是說你其實是就市場牽制於市場然後頂多是訂到CNS標準那你看歐盟的標準這些歐盟的標準你們其實遠遠的落後於歐盟的標準看得出來啦其實都是牽制於這個市場標準\n\n27\n00:08:56,755 --> 00:09:23,070\n那你們在研擬未來D到L的這些VOS限值的時候都是用市場的產品現況來決定你的限值要怎麼定如果這樣的規劃裡面其實你是在反映市場趨勢而不是實際健康的風險你是就市場的這個數據而不是基於健康需求也不是基於環境需求而不是實際的風險上的需求\n\n28\n00:09:25,325 --> 00:09:36,620\n所以你到底是不是經濟部的小弟這樣的做法來讓產業決定標準而不是透過健康數據和科學的數據和環境的需求來決定標準這難道不是對公共健康的妥協嗎\n\n29\n00:09:44,290 --> 00:09:49,433\n這難道不是落入人家對你質疑的是不是經濟部的小弟的這個問號嗎所以你對D類到L類這些塗料的產品VOCS的含量標準你雖然是建議人家委外他是建議你這樣訂你會不會這樣訂還是一個問號喔搞不好你訂的會比委外的建議值還要更寬鬆\n\n30\n00:10:11,090 --> 00:10:25,997\n第一個你到底要不要訂你要期程會是怎麼訂那什麼時候可以完成全面的這個建物和工業塗料的這個維護的這些管制限職的公告你們大概會是什麼期程去規劃\n\n31\n00:10:27,643 --> 00:10:35,629\n報告委員這個是一個計畫啦我還沒有看到這個計畫的數字對啊遙遙無期啦你們建議要訂的這個數字我們已經很不滿意了這個是配合產業需求去建議的喔我們已經很不滿意喔但是還是遙遙無期不一定會訂啊現在D到L是0沒有規定沒有規定0規定所以現在問你你到底要不要規定你的起承會是什麼\n\n32\n00:10:57,299 --> 00:11:02,894\n包委因為我還沒有看到這個報告那這個未來是一定會定的未來是未來多久啊未來\n\n33\n00:11:07,549 --> 00:11:32,105\n跟委員報告目前我們初步規劃是會先針對DEF的部分在今年來DEF那你們的標準會照建議的還是還會更寬鬆跟委員報告因為現在資料在收集我們還在討論當中這個都已經幫你們做好收集市場上的產品都是這樣子的了你們是配合市場產品的數據去定限值的啊\n\n34\n00:11:33,349 --> 00:11:44,700\n那個是委外計畫我知道啊人家委外研究就去做後市場查驗了去看了啊那你DEF以外的GHIJKL呢所以你們是沒有看法你們保證你今天在這裡回答都不及格沒有擔當沒有破例沒有承諾\n\n35\n00:11:55,325 --> 00:12:15,780\n但以前都沒工喔沒有沒有這個是委外的研究計畫我還沒有看到這個數字然後VOC的管制是我未來一定會做的但是我們真的報告委員因為我只有好這個只是建物和工業塗料那我要再問你一般性消費產品喔完全沒有管制喔連排放量都沒有掌握喔消費性商品喔這個消費性商品\n\n36\n00:12:22,199 --> 00:12:47,130\n我剛剛還有一個更重要的數據但是因為我的表格在講的話會拖更多時間我就算我先講一般消費性商品好了這個液體清潔劑乏用化妝品空氣清新劑它具有化學活性這種VOCS都具有化學活性在強烈的日照和氮氧化物存在下會進行一連串的光化反應而產生臭氧還有過氧硝酸乙烯酯\n\n37\n00:12:47,470 --> 00:13:08,399\n就是PAN等二次污染物不但使得空氣品質惡化以外還會刺激呼吸系統導致各種不利健康的影響而且還可能降低這個能見度其實對個人的健康風險其實影響很大那還有這種揮發性的化學物質的揮發有機物的排放量資料為管制重要的工作基礎\n\n38\n00:13:09,139 --> 00:13:32,485\n那你只有唯有掌握了這一些排放量你才有辦法討論到如何進行管制那了解了這一些排放量的主要貢獻產品類別和品項很重要還可以作為減量效益的這個估算的基礎可是沒有母法授權現在也沒有辦法沒有強制申報和登錄那你們知道一年的大概多少排放量你們調查的出來嗎\n\n39\n00:13:33,869 --> 00:13:53,694\n委員這個是我們現在正在處理的啦所以再給我一點時間你們的委外的資料也沒有啊你現在有委外嗎沒有啊有委外的也沒有啊有母法授權嗎沒有啊報告委員目前有委託工業技術研究院在進行相關的調查跟搜集什麼時候開始委託的什麼時候結案報告委員去年開始去年預計什麼時候結案多少經費\n\n40\n00:14:05,214 --> 00:14:10,358\n你提供給我你現在講不出來我告訴你隨便在這裡虛以為疑立違青菜公我有在做啊這講一句話很簡單的啦但是問你比較詳細的你就說不出來了啦其實有做沒做不知道啦報告在哪裡不知道啦沒關係我問你看到一句話你同不同意建立含有VOCS化學製品排放量的申報制度我同意你同意好\n\n41\n00:14:30,543 --> 00:14:43,693\n那你自己就好好的進行規劃你說去年去看了然後看起來好像很有感然後好像你要進行管制了你也同意要申報制度了可是我就等著看你什麼時候做因為國際都已經在要加嚴管理台灣卻連開始都還沒有開始現在連盤點連估算到底有多少申報多少量都不知道製造多少量輸入多少量不知道什麼都不知道\n\n42\n00:14:55,962 --> 00:15:13,225\n那現在加州的這個一般的VOCS的消費性商品包括這些東西它對現行標準對空氣清淨劑的VOCS含量限制為20到30%而且PY在2023年它在2023年就下降到10%2031年預計要進一步的降到5%然後髮妝用的定型噴霧劑之前是55%\n\n43\n00:15:21,567 --> 00:15:49,176\n那未來要降到2023年就降到了502031年要降到45%那美國的EPA他1996年也就開始管制然後到2013年制定了很多他們都很積極的在管制管制的方式就是透過製造商輸入商經銷商要遵守特定的VOCS的含量限值在這種狀況裡面其實美國都已經在用而且他們訂出很具體說我一年要減少幾萬噸\n\n44\n00:15:50,717 --> 00:16:02,624\n很具體所以在這種狀況裡面你要委外的研究裡面其實你們的VOCS的成分我們看那個髮妝用品的部分還有這個空氣清新劑全部都超標全部都超過國外的標準因為台灣沒有標準嘛\n\n45\n00:16:07,947 --> 00:16:26,639\n那你們在研擬這個標準的時候也沒有積極的對接到國際標準你們還是以廠商現有的技術能力市場既有的產品然後為基準去訂出遠低於國際標準的鬆散法規那像這個\n\n46\n00:16:28,226 --> 00:16:39,028\n清潔劑的使用你去看環境部把它分成加壓式和一般式而你看你們去市場檢測就是這個紫色的實際檢測最大值然後最大值最上面你們就定出你們你預計可能想要的他委託的單位建議你們的就是四正方形的紅色的格子格子狀的然後你們定的標準你定的標準都遠比於\n\n47\n00:16:56,952 --> 00:17:08,790\n加州的、美國的、香港的都還要更寬鬆許多看起來環境部沒有因應健康需求沒有因應環境需求的或是國際標準而是以業者技術做不到\n\n48\n00:17:12,735 --> 00:17:21,945\n現有的市場產品就是這種標準略低於現有的市場的產品直接評估將標準定在這種30WTE的%所以更無視於國際更嚴格的規定這個是清潔劑你看下一個是空氣清新劑你同樣的沒有以國際標準為依據\n\n49\n00:17:33,797 --> 00:17:36,639\n都還是就市場現有的產品然後產品的現況定出一個建議的標準然後去折衷就以這個實際檢測的75%的數據將標準定成80WT而不是參照國際趨勢去加嚴我最後要說你這樣子委外的單位跟你建議的\n\n50\n00:18:03,208 --> 00:18:18,952\n你這樣的標準制定方式都不是基於健康和環境需求就是單純的配合業者的能力讓現有的產品都不必大幅的修改就能通過檢驗結果導致了台灣的VOCS的管制遠遠落後國際連基本的門檻都沒有辦法提升\n\n51\n00:18:24,633 --> 00:18:49,552\n它影響了我們剛剛講清潔的空氣清新劑的不是只有危害到這個是戶外空氣品質它這個都在室內而且不太容易易散國外人平均有80%到90%的時間都是在室內而建築工業塗料它這個是在戶外居多但是建築塗料也一大部分都是在室內屋頂的牆面的\n\n52\n00:18:52,785 --> 00:19:16,230\n所以這個大家國際的經驗告訴你說這種消費線產品都在室內不容易易散第二個這一種管制必須是全面且系統性的管制才能有效所以我們在這種狀況不管制不納管對個人健康影響很大我在最後問你就是說你擴大管制加強管制跟國際標準對接你有沒有這樣的計畫部長\n\n53\n00:19:17,947 --> 00:19:39,808\n包委員這個是我們我去年去完了之後就跟同仁討論去東京剛好看到東京都在做這個事啦然後我有特別交代然後他們其實這個委員提供的資料是我們委外的一個計畫從你們委外計畫來看就知道已經夠糟了啊沒有那個是委外計畫做不是我們做啊所以你的意思是說你訂的標準會比委外計畫訂的更嚴格\n\n54\n00:19:43,331 --> 00:19:50,916\n這個我們會來研究好不好但我不是要問你嚴格的問題我要問你期程啊你不要告訴我說你未來會做結果你下台了還沒做\n\n55\n00:19:53,826 --> 00:20:16,960\n我們擔心的是這個啊你是不是要針對消費性產品VLCS管制你有沒有短中長期的計畫五年內你有沒有要多少類別消費性產品類別要納管你預期有沒有設定一個減量的目標和效益委員再給我們一點時間內部討論可以嗎好那我下次問你顯然就應該要有答案了\n\n56\n00:20:18,001 --> 00:20:19,383\n我第一次拋出這個議題,你說你還沒有看過,那我就讓你有點時間去準備可以,沒問題,謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n109\t1429\t謝謝主席,是不是請我們彭部長來請部長\n28499\t53869\t林委員好部長好其實大家今天談很多但我想要談一個制度面的就想要跟你討論一下這個消費性產品的VOCS排放你的管制工具不足那其實這樣的空瓶跟國人健康更是息息相關的這個制度面那大家都知道非花訊那個\n55810\t82831\t揮發性有機化合物就VOCS是形成臭氧和PM2.5的重要的前驅物質它會導致空氣品質惡化也會嚴重的危害國人的健康但是如果我們不要講固定污染源和移動污染源我們扣除了固定污染源和移動污染源根據你們自己的說法和統計\n84392\t100687\t消費性的商品含有VOCS的排放量一年大概有18.7萬噸但是很驚人的這樣的排放量你看它是佔我國VOCS排放總量的41%這是你們最新的數據41%\n103169\t113743\t那換句話說它已經是成為就你們這一張圖來看它是成為我國VOCS排放量的最大來源之一超過許多的工業\n115222\t120726\t污染源的排放也超過了這個移動污染源你看這張表它就是獨樹一格那消費性的商品包括我們大家 而且都跟個人消費行為有關法膠 清潔產品 噴漆 黏著劑 發香劑 建物的塗料等等\n134915\t151428\t所以它是跟人民的生活息息相關的緊密的聯合在一起的而且它對個人的健康的風險影響也非常大的而且大多數都是在室內使用的所以呢每年使用這麼大量的上億個的這樣的消費性的商品累計造成的這個不良的影響非常的驚人\n156872\t175380\t那如果講環境的話這個人健康影響非常大那講環境我剛剛講了它就是臭氧還有PM2.5的重要的前去物質所以它也是我國空氣品質不良的主要污染物之一可是你們管制了什麼保電有靈觀這下\n177017\t188561\t報告委員其實這個問題我去年年底的時候剛好去東京看了一個展看到日本的東京都他就針對這個VOC有一個非常大的攤位就是剛剛委員對啦看了這個展以後對你的影響是什麼對你們在政策上的回饋是什麼\n193904\t208859\t隨即就有跟我們大氣師在討論那目前來看的話我們是針對這個塗料的非灰性的這個VOC的進行一個管制但是我們發現還有生活還有很多例如說我們噴髮膠等等的都有在裡面啦\n209079\t228095\t你這樣講當然講得很好聽啊就是說你們現在目前納管的就是建物還有工業維護塗料中的三類別和五種塗料你們訂出了VOCS成分的限職規定那包括室內的牆壁啦天花板用的塗料啦和室外的牆壁用的塗料\n230077\t248354\t就是你們分類裡面的C1 C2還有C3這種類別但是這樣子有限的管制措施你們的預期可以達到多少的排放量的目標管制你知道嗎包委員就是你上面說的他大概佔了大概十幾二十幾左右沒有啦\n249659\t260146\t沒有到那麼高因為我說消費性的這一個總排放量是18.7萬噸消費性商品可是你的管制起來你們預期達到的是18.7萬你這樣預期的管制目標只有2000噸\n267711\t290557\t佔建物塗料VOCS排放量的6%然後離有效控制消費性商品VOCS排放量的目標相去甚遠更令人擔心的是我們知道這裡面佔最多比的是一般和其他消費性商品而不只是你這裡管制的工業和建物使用的塗料\n291357\t304971\t更多的是跟人民洗洗相關的消費性商品像液體清潔劑法用的化妝品空氣清新劑這種管制的速度非常的慢而且沒有具體的管制標準保證\n307262\t322353\t這樣要怎麼辦報告委員因為這個問題我有去跟我們同仁討論過第一個是他的項目非常非常的多元而且是整個體系要去做一個很大的改變所以我們也在真的在蒐集資料說例如說日本是怎麼管制的因為他那個生活環境\n324534\t341540\t我先就建物塗料的管制來就教育你因為你已經選擇了也要優先從建物塗料開始先優先去管啊但是你的管理的制度根本是市場導向而不是基於健康環境和科學的數據\n342881\t357997\t你人家問你說你是不是經濟部的小弟啊你說你不是小弟可是我們來看你到底是不是小弟從制度面來檢驗嘛你們在108年上8月你還沒上任就公告了建物及工業維護塗料\n360299\t376248\t揮發性有機物的存分標準你們第一階段就是優先要針對CNS15080CNS都有標準啦不過它是一個參考而不是一個強制性的嘛那在這個裡面CNS裡面CNS158012類的塗料種類你只要納 你現在只納管ABC\n382651\t386241\t然後現在這個DEF這種你通通都沒有有沒有CNS的所有塗料的種類 玉琴有沒有\n391530\t414677\tOK 沒關係你只納管了室內牆壁 室內天花板還有室外牆壁用塗料其他的DEFG就是這些通通沒有都沒有納管然後造成大量的VOCS排放到大器當中那你們委外有研究報告喔除了D D類就是室內外的木器 金屬 塑膠用的修飾和保護塗料\n415897\t438209\t還有F F就是你們室內外最小模後木材著色料I單一型塗料 K多彩塗料L裝飾效果塗料anyway這些都是建物的這個12大類的塗料建物和工業使用的這個塗料你們的管制是這樣子管制的來看一下\n440814\t465202\t你們的水溶性塗料含量你們是去做市場調查喔這些數據歷年來檢測數據統計是去做後市場調查就現有的市場去蒐集資料蒐集資料看得出來你們要研擬一個限值的管制你們最右欄VOC的含量限值建議指你們未來想要的管制方法\n465982\t482790\t你去市場收集 比如說第一它第75個 百分之75都是69的單位了那你就會建議說 那我就定為70市場目前69 大多數都69 我就定70市場大部分都是514第二欄 我就建議500那你看一下 如果市場大部分都是692\n494557\t512432\t那你就想說 你就趨近於CNS標準變500就是一類的 溶劑型的然後你再看 你定的標準就是G類的溶劑型的市場75%都是668你就定了一個450 跟CNS標準一樣\n513533\t534667\t我們的意思是什麼 意思是說 你其實是就市場 牽制於市場然後頂多是訂到CNS標準 那你看歐盟的標準這些歐盟的標準 你們其實遠遠的落後於歐盟的標準看得出來啦 其實都是牽制於這個市場標準\n536755\t563070\t那你們在研擬未來D到L的這些VOS限值的時候都是用市場的產品現況來決定你的限值要怎麼定如果這樣的規劃裡面其實你是在反映市場趨勢而不是實際健康的風險你是就市場的這個數據而不是基於健康需求也不是基於環境需求而不是實際的風險上的需求\n565325\t576620\t所以你到底是不是經濟部的小弟這樣的做法來讓產業決定標準而不是透過健康數據和科學的數據和環境的需求來決定標準這難道不是對公共健康的妥協嗎\n584290\t589433\t這難道不是落入人家對你質疑的是不是經濟部的小弟的這個問號嗎所以你對D類到L類這些塗料的產品VOCS的含量標準你雖然是建議人家委外他是建議你這樣訂你會不會這樣訂還是一個問號喔搞不好你訂的會比委外的建議值還要更寬鬆\n611090\t625997\t第一個你到底要不要訂你要期程會是怎麼訂那什麼時候可以完成全面的這個建物和工業塗料的這個維護的這些管制限職的公告你們大概會是什麼期程去規劃\n627643\t635629\t報告委員 這個是一個計畫啦我還沒有看到這個計畫的數字對啊 遙遙無期啦你們建議要訂的這個數字我們已經很不滿意了這個是配合產業需求去建議的喔我們已經很不滿意喔但是還是遙遙無期不一定會訂啊現在D到L是0沒有規定 沒有規定 0規定所以現在問你 你到底要不要規定你的起承會是什麼\n657299\t662894\t包委因為我還沒有看到這個報告那這個未來是一定會定的未來是未來多久啊未來\n667549\t692105\t跟委員報告目前我們初步規劃是會先針對DEF的部分在今年來DEF那你們的標準會照建議的還是還會更寬鬆跟委員報告因為現在資料在收集我們還在討論當中這個都已經幫你們做好收集市場上的產品都是這樣子的了你們是配合市場產品的數據去定限值的啊\n693349\t704700\t那個是委外計畫 我知道啊 人家委外研究就去做後市場查驗了 去看了啊那你DEF以外的GHIJKL呢 所以你們是沒有看法你們 保證你今天在這裡回答都不及格沒有擔當 沒有破例 沒有承諾\n715325\t735780\t但以前都沒工喔沒有沒有 這個是委外的研究計畫我還沒有看到這個數字然後VOC的管制是我未來一定會做的但是我們真的報告委員因為我只有好 這個只是建物和工業塗料那我要再問你一般性消費產品喔完全沒有管制喔 連排放量都沒有掌握喔消費性商品喔這個消費性商品\n742199\t767130\t我剛剛還有一個更重要的數據但是因為我的表格在講的話會拖更多時間我就算我先講一般消費性商品好了這個液體清潔劑 乏用化妝品 空氣清新劑它具有化學活性這種VOCS都具有化學活性在強烈的日照和氮氧化物存在下會進行一連串的光化反應而產生臭氧還有過氧硝酸 乙烯酯\n767470\t788399\t就是PAN等二次污染物不但使得空氣品質惡化以外還會刺激呼吸系統導致各種不利健康的影響而且還可能降低這個能見度其實對個人的健康風險其實影響很大那還有這種揮發性的化學物質的揮發有機物的排放量資料為管制重要的工作基礎\n789139\t812485\t那你只有唯有掌握了這一些排放量你才有辦法討論到如何進行管制那了解了這一些排放量的主要貢獻產品類別和品項很重要還可以作為減量效益的這個估算的基礎可是沒有母法授權現在也沒有辦法沒有強制申報和登錄那你們知道一年的大概多少排放量你們調查的出來嗎\n813869\t833694\t委員這個是我們現在正在處理的啦所以再給我一點時間你們的委外的資料也沒有啊你現在有委外嗎沒有啊有委外的也沒有啊有母法授權嗎沒有啊報告委員目前有委託工業技術研究院在進行相關的調查跟搜集什麼時候開始委託的什麼時候結案報告委員去年開始去年預計什麼時候結案多少經費\n845214\t850358\t你提供給我 你現在講不出來我告訴你 隨便在這裡虛以為疑 立違青菜公我有在做啊這講一句話很簡單的啦但是問你比較詳細的 你就說不出來了啦其實有做沒做不知道啦 報告在哪裡不知道啦沒關係 我問你看到一句話你同不同意建立含有VOCS化學製品排放量的申報制度我同意你同意 好\n870543\t883693\t那你自己就好好的進行規劃你說去年去看了然後看起來好像很有感然後好像你要進行管制了你也同意要申報制度了可是我就等著看你什麼時候做因為國際都已經在要加嚴管理台灣卻連開始都還沒有開始現在連盤點連估算到底有多少申報多少量都不知道製造多少量輸入多少量不知道什麼都不知道\n895962\t913225\t那現在加州的這個一般的VOCS的消費性商品包括這些東西它對現行標準對空氣清淨劑的VOCS含量限制為20到30%而且PY在2023年它在2023年就下降到10%2031年預計要進一步的降到5%然後髮妝用的定型噴霧劑之前是55%\n921567\t949176\t那未來要降到2023年就降到了502031年要降到45%那美國的EPA他1996年也就開始管制然後到2013年制定了很多他們都很積極的在管制管制的方式就是透過製造商 輸入商 經銷商要遵守特定的VOCS的含量限值在這種狀況裡面其實美國都已經在用而且他們訂出很具體說我一年要減少幾萬噸\n950717\t962624\t很具體所以在這種狀況裡面你要委外的研究裡面其實你們的VOCS的成分我們看那個髮妝用品的部分還有這個空氣清新劑全部都超標全部都超過國外的標準因為台灣沒有標準嘛\n967947\t986639\t那你們在研擬這個標準的時候也沒有積極的對接到國際標準你們還是以廠商現有的技術能力市場既有的產品然後為基準去訂出遠低於國際標準的鬆散法規那像這個\n988226\t999028\t清潔劑的使用你去看環境部把它分成加壓式和一般式而你看你們去市場檢測就是這個紫色的實際檢測最大值然後最大值最上面你們就定出你們你預計可能想要的他委託的單位建議你們的就是四正方形的紅色的格子格子狀的然後你們定的標準你定的標準都遠比於\n1016952\t1028790\t加州的、美國的、香港的都還要更寬鬆許多看起來環境部沒有因應健康需求沒有因應環境需求的或是國際標準而是以業者技術做不到\n1032735\t1041945\t現有的市場產品就是這種標準 略低於現有的市場的產品直接評估將標準定在這種30WTE的%所以更無視於國際更嚴格的規定 這個是清潔劑你看下一個是空氣清新劑 你同樣的沒有以國際標準為依據\n1053797\t1056639\t都還是就市場現有的產品然後產品的現況定出一個建議的標準然後去折衷就以這個實際檢測的75%的數據將標準定成80WT而不是參照國際趨勢去加嚴我最後要說你這樣子委外的單位跟你建議的\n1083208\t1098952\t你這樣的標準制定方式都不是基於健康和環境需求就是單純的配合業者的能力讓現有的產品都不必大幅的修改就能通過檢驗結果導致了台灣的VOCS的管制遠遠落後國際連基本的門檻都沒有辦法提升\n1104633\t1129552\t它影響了我們剛剛講清潔的空氣清新劑的不是只有危害到這個是戶外空氣品質它這個都在室內而且不太容易易散國外人平均有80%到90%的時間都是在室內而建築工業塗料它這個是在戶外居多但是建築塗料也一大部分都是在室內屋頂的牆面的\n1132785\t1156230\t所以這個大家國際的經驗告訴你說這種消費線產品都在室內不容易易散第二個 這一種管制必須是全面且系統性的管制才能有效所以我們在這種狀況不管制 不納管對個人健康影響很大我在最後問你就是說你擴大管制 加強管制 跟國際標準對接你有沒有這樣的計畫 部長\n1157947\t1179808\t包委員這個是我們我去年去完了之後就跟同仁討論去東京剛好看到東京都在做這個事啦然後我有特別交代然後他們其實這個委員提供的資料是我們委外的一個計畫從你們委外計畫來看就知道已經夠糟了啊沒有那個是委外計畫做不是我們做啊所以你的意思是說你訂的標準會比委外計畫訂的更嚴格\n1183331\t1190916\t這個我們會來研究好不好但我不是要問你嚴格的問題我要問你期程啊你不要告訴我說你未來會做結果你下台了還沒做\n1193826\t1216960\t我們擔心的是這個啊你是不是要針對消費性產品VLCS管制你有沒有短中長期的計畫五年內你有沒有要多少類別消費性產品類別要納管你預期有沒有設定一個減量的目標和效益委員再給我們一點時間內部討論可以嗎好那我下次問你顯然就應該要有答案了\n1218001\t1219383\t我第一次拋出這個議題,你說你還沒有看過,那我就讓你有點時間去準備可以,沒問題,謝謝委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席,是不是請我們彭部長來請部長\n林委員好部長好其實大家今天談很多但我想要談一個制度面的就想要跟你討論一下這個消費性產品的VOCS排放你的管制工具不足那其實這樣的空瓶跟國人健康更是息息相關的這個制度面那大家都知道非花訊那個\n揮發性有機化合物就VOCS是形成臭氧和PM2.5的重要的前驅物質它會導致空氣品質惡化也會嚴重的危害國人的健康但是如果我們不要講固定污染源和移動污染源我們扣除了固定污染源和移動污染源根據你們自己的說法和統計\n消費性的商品含有VOCS的排放量一年大概有18.7萬噸但是很驚人的這樣的排放量你看它是佔我國VOCS排放總量的41%這是你們最新的數據41%\n那換句話說它已經是成為就你們這一張圖來看它是成為我國VOCS排放量的最大來源之一超過許多的工業\n污染源的排放也超過了這個移動污染源你看這張表它就是獨樹一格那消費性的商品包括我們大家 而且都跟個人消費行為有關法膠 清潔產品 噴漆 黏著劑 發香劑 建物的塗料等等\n所以它是跟人民的生活息息相關的緊密的聯合在一起的而且它對個人的健康的風險影響也非常大的而且大多數都是在室內使用的所以呢每年使用這麼大量的上億個的這樣的消費性的商品累計造成的這個不良的影響非常的驚人\n那如果講環境的話這個人健康影響非常大那講環境我剛剛講了它就是臭氧還有PM2.5的重要的前去物質所以它也是我國空氣品質不良的主要污染物之一可是你們管制了什麼保電有靈觀這下\n報告委員其實這個問題我去年年底的時候剛好去東京看了一個展看到日本的東京都他就針對這個VOC有一個非常大的攤位就是剛剛委員對啦看了這個展以後對你的影響是什麼對你們在政策上的回饋是什麼\n隨即就有跟我們大氣師在討論那目前來看的話我們是針對這個塗料的非灰性的這個VOC的進行一個管制但是我們發現還有生活還有很多例如說我們噴髮膠等等的都有在裡面啦\n你這樣講當然講得很好聽啊就是說你們現在目前納管的就是建物還有工業維護塗料中的三類別和五種塗料你們訂出了VOCS成分的限職規定那包括室內的牆壁啦天花板用的塗料啦和室外的牆壁用的塗料\n就是你們分類裡面的C1 C2還有C3這種類別但是這樣子有限的管制措施你們的預期可以達到多少的排放量的目標管制你知道嗎包委員就是你上面說的他大概佔了大概十幾二十幾左右沒有啦\n沒有到那麼高因為我說消費性的這一個總排放量是18.7萬噸消費性商品可是你的管制起來你們預期達到的是18.7萬你這樣預期的管制目標只有2000噸\n佔建物塗料VOCS排放量的6%然後離有效控制消費性商品VOCS排放量的目標相去甚遠更令人擔心的是我們知道這裡面佔最多比的是一般和其他消費性商品而不只是你這裡管制的工業和建物使用的塗料\n更多的是跟人民洗洗相關的消費性商品像液體清潔劑法用的化妝品空氣清新劑這種管制的速度非常的慢而且沒有具體的管制標準保證\n這樣要怎麼辦報告委員因為這個問題我有去跟我們同仁討論過第一個是他的項目非常非常的多元而且是整個體系要去做一個很大的改變所以我們也在真的在蒐集資料說例如說日本是怎麼管制的因為他那個生活環境\n我先就建物塗料的管制來就教育你因為你已經選擇了也要優先從建物塗料開始先優先去管啊但是你的管理的制度根本是市場導向而不是基於健康環境和科學的數據\n你人家問你說你是不是經濟部的小弟啊你說你不是小弟可是我們來看你到底是不是小弟從制度面來檢驗嘛你們在108年上8月你還沒上任就公告了建物及工業維護塗料\n揮發性有機物的存分標準你們第一階段就是優先要針對CNS15080CNS都有標準啦不過它是一個參考而不是一個強制性的嘛那在這個裡面CNS裡面CNS158012類的塗料種類你只要納 你現在只納管ABC\n然後現在這個DEF這種你通通都沒有有沒有CNS的所有塗料的種類 玉琴有沒有\nOK 沒關係你只納管了室內牆壁 室內天花板還有室外牆壁用塗料其他的DEFG就是這些通通沒有都沒有納管然後造成大量的VOCS排放到大器當中那你們委外有研究報告喔除了D D類就是室內外的木器 金屬 塑膠用的修飾和保護塗料\n還有F F就是你們室內外最小模後木材著色料I單一型塗料 K多彩塗料L裝飾效果塗料anyway這些都是建物的這個12大類的塗料建物和工業使用的這個塗料你們的管制是這樣子管制的來看一下\n你們的水溶性塗料含量你們是去做市場調查喔這些數據歷年來檢測數據統計是去做後市場調查就現有的市場去蒐集資料蒐集資料看得出來你們要研擬一個限值的管制你們最右欄VOC的含量限值建議指你們未來想要的管制方法\n你去市場收集 比如說第一它第75個 百分之75都是69的單位了那你就會建議說 那我就定為70市場目前69 大多數都69 我就定70市場大部分都是514第二欄 我就建議500那你看一下 如果市場大部分都是692\n那你就想說 你就趨近於CNS標準變500就是一類的 溶劑型的然後你再看 你定的標準就是G類的溶劑型的市場75%都是668你就定了一個450 跟CNS標準一樣\n我們的意思是什麼 意思是說 你其實是就市場 牽制於市場然後頂多是訂到CNS標準 那你看歐盟的標準這些歐盟的標準 你們其實遠遠的落後於歐盟的標準看得出來啦 其實都是牽制於這個市場標準\n那你們在研擬未來D到L的這些VOS限值的時候都是用市場的產品現況來決定你的限值要怎麼定如果這樣的規劃裡面其實你是在反映市場趨勢而不是實際健康的風險你是就市場的這個數據而不是基於健康需求也不是基於環境需求而不是實際的風險上的需求\n所以你到底是不是經濟部的小弟這樣的做法來讓產業決定標準而不是透過健康數據和科學的數據和環境的需求來決定標準這難道不是對公共健康的妥協嗎\n這難道不是落入人家對你質疑的是不是經濟部的小弟的這個問號嗎所以你對D類到L類這些塗料的產品VOCS的含量標準你雖然是建議人家委外他是建議你這樣訂你會不會這樣訂還是一個問號喔搞不好你訂的會比委外的建議值還要更寬鬆\n第一個你到底要不要訂你要期程會是怎麼訂那什麼時候可以完成全面的這個建物和工業塗料的這個維護的這些管制限職的公告你們大概會是什麼期程去規劃\n報告委員 這個是一個計畫啦我還沒有看到這個計畫的數字對啊 遙遙無期啦你們建議要訂的這個數字我們已經很不滿意了這個是配合產業需求去建議的喔我們已經很不滿意喔但是還是遙遙無期不一定會訂啊現在D到L是0沒有規定 沒有規定 0規定所以現在問你 你到底要不要規定你的起承會是什麼\n包委因為我還沒有看到這個報告那這個未來是一定會定的未來是未來多久啊未來\n跟委員報告目前我們初步規劃是會先針對DEF的部分在今年來DEF那你們的標準會照建議的還是還會更寬鬆跟委員報告因為現在資料在收集我們還在討論當中這個都已經幫你們做好收集市場上的產品都是這樣子的了你們是配合市場產品的數據去定限值的啊\n那個是委外計畫 我知道啊 人家委外研究就去做後市場查驗了 去看了啊那你DEF以外的GHIJKL呢 所以你們是沒有看法你們 保證你今天在這裡回答都不及格沒有擔當 沒有破例 沒有承諾\n但以前都沒工喔沒有沒有 這個是委外的研究計畫我還沒有看到這個數字然後VOC的管制是我未來一定會做的但是我們真的報告委員因為我只有好 這個只是建物和工業塗料那我要再問你一般性消費產品喔完全沒有管制喔 連排放量都沒有掌握喔消費性商品喔這個消費性商品\n我剛剛還有一個更重要的數據但是因為我的表格在講的話會拖更多時間我就算我先講一般消費性商品好了這個液體清潔劑 乏用化妝品 空氣清新劑它具有化學活性這種VOCS都具有化學活性在強烈的日照和氮氧化物存在下會進行一連串的光化反應而產生臭氧還有過氧硝酸 乙烯酯\n就是PAN等二次污染物不但使得空氣品質惡化以外還會刺激呼吸系統導致各種不利健康的影響而且還可能降低這個能見度其實對個人的健康風險其實影響很大那還有這種揮發性的化學物質的揮發有機物的排放量資料為管制重要的工作基礎\n那你只有唯有掌握了這一些排放量你才有辦法討論到如何進行管制那了解了這一些排放量的主要貢獻產品類別和品項很重要還可以作為減量效益的這個估算的基礎可是沒有母法授權現在也沒有辦法沒有強制申報和登錄那你們知道一年的大概多少排放量你們調查的出來嗎\n委員這個是我們現在正在處理的啦所以再給我一點時間你們的委外的資料也沒有啊你現在有委外嗎沒有啊有委外的也沒有啊有母法授權嗎沒有啊報告委員目前有委託工業技術研究院在進行相關的調查跟搜集什麼時候開始委託的什麼時候結案報告委員去年開始去年預計什麼時候結案多少經費\n你提供給我 你現在講不出來我告訴你 隨便在這裡虛以為疑 立違青菜公我有在做啊這講一句話很簡單的啦但是問你比較詳細的 你就說不出來了啦其實有做沒做不知道啦 報告在哪裡不知道啦沒關係 我問你看到一句話你同不同意建立含有VOCS化學製品排放量的申報制度我同意你同意 好\n那你自己就好好的進行規劃你說去年去看了然後看起來好像很有感然後好像你要進行管制了你也同意要申報制度了可是我就等著看你什麼時候做因為國際都已經在要加嚴管理台灣卻連開始都還沒有開始現在連盤點連估算到底有多少申報多少量都不知道製造多少量輸入多少量不知道什麼都不知道\n那現在加州的這個一般的VOCS的消費性商品包括這些東西它對現行標準對空氣清淨劑的VOCS含量限制為20到30%而且PY在2023年它在2023年就下降到10%2031年預計要進一步的降到5%然後髮妝用的定型噴霧劑之前是55%\n那未來要降到2023年就降到了502031年要降到45%那美國的EPA他1996年也就開始管制然後到2013年制定了很多他們都很積極的在管制管制的方式就是透過製造商 輸入商 經銷商要遵守特定的VOCS的含量限值在這種狀況裡面其實美國都已經在用而且他們訂出很具體說我一年要減少幾萬噸\n很具體所以在這種狀況裡面你要委外的研究裡面其實你們的VOCS的成分我們看那個髮妝用品的部分還有這個空氣清新劑全部都超標全部都超過國外的標準因為台灣沒有標準嘛\n那你們在研擬這個標準的時候也沒有積極的對接到國際標準你們還是以廠商現有的技術能力市場既有的產品然後為基準去訂出遠低於國際標準的鬆散法規那像這個\n清潔劑的使用你去看環境部把它分成加壓式和一般式而你看你們去市場檢測就是這個紫色的實際檢測最大值然後最大值最上面你們就定出你們你預計可能想要的他委託的單位建議你們的就是四正方形的紅色的格子格子狀的然後你們定的標準你定的標準都遠比於\n加州的、美國的、香港的都還要更寬鬆許多看起來環境部沒有因應健康需求沒有因應環境需求的或是國際標準而是以業者技術做不到\n現有的市場產品就是這種標準 略低於現有的市場的產品直接評估將標準定在這種30WTE的%所以更無視於國際更嚴格的規定 這個是清潔劑你看下一個是空氣清新劑 你同樣的沒有以國際標準為依據\n都還是就市場現有的產品然後產品的現況定出一個建議的標準然後去折衷就以這個實際檢測的75%的數據將標準定成80WT而不是參照國際趨勢去加嚴我最後要說你這樣子委外的單位跟你建議的\n你這樣的標準制定方式都不是基於健康和環境需求就是單純的配合業者的能力讓現有的產品都不必大幅的修改就能通過檢驗結果導致了台灣的VOCS的管制遠遠落後國際連基本的門檻都沒有辦法提升\n它影響了我們剛剛講清潔的空氣清新劑的不是只有危害到這個是戶外空氣品質它這個都在室內而且不太容易易散國外人平均有80%到90%的時間都是在室內而建築工業塗料它這個是在戶外居多但是建築塗料也一大部分都是在室內屋頂的牆面的\n所以這個大家國際的經驗告訴你說這種消費線產品都在室內不容易易散第二個 這一種管制必須是全面且系統性的管制才能有效所以我們在這種狀況不管制 不納管對個人健康影響很大我在最後問你就是說你擴大管制 加強管制 跟國際標準對接你有沒有這樣的計畫 部長\n包委員這個是我們我去年去完了之後就跟同仁討論去東京剛好看到東京都在做這個事啦然後我有特別交代然後他們其實這個委員提供的資料是我們委外的一個計畫從你們委外計畫來看就知道已經夠糟了啊沒有那個是委外計畫做不是我們做啊所以你的意思是說你訂的標準會比委外計畫訂的更嚴格\n這個我們會來研究好不好但我不是要問你嚴格的問題我要問你期程啊你不要告訴我說你未來會做結果你下台了還沒做\n我們擔心的是這個啊你是不是要針對消費性產品VLCS管制你有沒有短中長期的計畫五年內你有沒有要多少類別消費性產品類別要納管你預期有沒有設定一個減量的目標和效益委員再給我們一點時間內部討論可以嗎好那我下次問你顯然就應該要有答案了\n我第一次拋出這個議題,你說你還沒有看過,那我就讓你有點時間去準備可以,沒問題,謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.109 --> 00:01.429\n謝謝主席,是不是請我們彭部長來請部長\n\n00:28.499 --> 00:53.869\n林委員好部長好其實大家今天談很多但我想要談一個制度面的就想要跟你討論一下這個消費性產品的VOCS排放你的管制工具不足那其實這樣的空瓶跟國人健康更是息息相關的這個制度面那大家都知道非花訊那個\n\n00:55.810 --> 01:22.831\n揮發性有機化合物就VOCS是形成臭氧和PM2.5的重要的前驅物質它會導致空氣品質惡化也會嚴重的危害國人的健康但是如果我們不要講固定污染源和移動污染源我們扣除了固定污染源和移動污染源根據你們自己的說法和統計\n\n01:24.392 --> 01:40.687\n消費性的商品含有VOCS的排放量一年大概有18.7萬噸但是很驚人的這樣的排放量你看它是佔我國VOCS排放總量的41%這是你們最新的數據41%\n\n01:43.169 --> 01:53.743\n那換句話說它已經是成為就你們這一張圖來看它是成為我國VOCS排放量的最大來源之一超過許多的工業\n\n01:55.222 --> 02:00.726\n污染源的排放也超過了這個移動污染源你看這張表它就是獨樹一格那消費性的商品包括我們大家而且都跟個人消費行為有關法膠清潔產品噴漆黏著劑發香劑建物的塗料等等\n\n02:14.915 --> 02:31.428\n所以它是跟人民的生活息息相關的緊密的聯合在一起的而且它對個人的健康的風險影響也非常大的而且大多數都是在室內使用的所以呢每年使用這麼大量的上億個的這樣的消費性的商品累計造成的這個不良的影響非常的驚人\n\n02:36.872 --> 02:55.380\n那如果講環境的話這個人健康影響非常大那講環境我剛剛講了它就是臭氧還有PM2.5的重要的前去物質所以它也是我國空氣品質不良的主要污染物之一可是你們管制了什麼保電有靈觀這下\n\n02:57.017 --> 03:08.561\n報告委員其實這個問題我去年年底的時候剛好去東京看了一個展看到日本的東京都他就針對這個VOC有一個非常大的攤位就是剛剛委員對啦看了這個展以後對你的影響是什麼對你們在政策上的回饋是什麼\n\n03:13.904 --> 03:28.859\n隨即就有跟我們大氣師在討論那目前來看的話我們是針對這個塗料的非灰性的這個VOC的進行一個管制但是我們發現還有生活還有很多例如說我們噴髮膠等等的都有在裡面啦\n\n03:29.079 --> 03:48.095\n你這樣講當然講得很好聽啊就是說你們現在目前納管的就是建物還有工業維護塗料中的三類別和五種塗料你們訂出了VOCS成分的限職規定那包括室內的牆壁啦天花板用的塗料啦和室外的牆壁用的塗料\n\n03:50.077 --> 04:08.354\n就是你們分類裡面的C1C2還有C3這種類別但是這樣子有限的管制措施你們的預期可以達到多少的排放量的目標管制你知道嗎包委員就是你上面說的他大概佔了大概十幾二十幾左右沒有啦\n\n04:09.659 --> 04:20.146\n沒有到那麼高因為我說消費性的這一個總排放量是18.7萬噸消費性商品可是你的管制起來你們預期達到的是18.7萬你這樣預期的管制目標只有2000噸\n\n04:27.711 --> 04:50.557\n佔建物塗料VOCS排放量的6%然後離有效控制消費性商品VOCS排放量的目標相去甚遠更令人擔心的是我們知道這裡面佔最多比的是一般和其他消費性商品而不只是你這裡管制的工業和建物使用的塗料\n\n04:51.357 --> 05:04.971\n更多的是跟人民洗洗相關的消費性商品像液體清潔劑法用的化妝品空氣清新劑這種管制的速度非常的慢而且沒有具體的管制標準保證\n\n05:07.262 --> 05:22.353\n這樣要怎麼辦報告委員因為這個問題我有去跟我們同仁討論過第一個是他的項目非常非常的多元而且是整個體系要去做一個很大的改變所以我們也在真的在蒐集資料說例如說日本是怎麼管制的因為他那個生活環境\n\n05:24.534 --> 05:41.540\n我先就建物塗料的管制來就教育你因為你已經選擇了也要優先從建物塗料開始先優先去管啊但是你的管理的制度根本是市場導向而不是基於健康環境和科學的數據\n\n05:42.881 --> 05:57.997\n你人家問你說你是不是經濟部的小弟啊你說你不是小弟可是我們來看你到底是不是小弟從制度面來檢驗嘛你們在108年上8月你還沒上任就公告了建物及工業維護塗料\n\n06:00.299 --> 06:16.248\n揮發性有機物的存分標準你們第一階段就是優先要針對CNS15080CNS都有標準啦不過它是一個參考而不是一個強制性的嘛那在這個裡面CNS裡面CNS158012類的塗料種類你只要納你現在只納管ABC\n\n06:22.651 --> 06:26.241\n然後現在這個DEF這種你通通都沒有有沒有CNS的所有塗料的種類玉琴有沒有\n\n06:31.530 --> 06:54.677\nOK沒關係你只納管了室內牆壁室內天花板還有室外牆壁用塗料其他的DEFG就是這些通通沒有都沒有納管然後造成大量的VOCS排放到大器當中那你們委外有研究報告喔除了DD類就是室內外的木器金屬塑膠用的修飾和保護塗料\n\n06:55.897 --> 07:18.209\n還有FF就是你們室內外最小模後木材著色料I單一型塗料K多彩塗料L裝飾效果塗料anyway這些都是建物的這個12大類的塗料建物和工業使用的這個塗料你們的管制是這樣子管制的來看一下\n\n07:20.814 --> 07:45.202\n你們的水溶性塗料含量你們是去做市場調查喔這些數據歷年來檢測數據統計是去做後市場調查就現有的市場去蒐集資料蒐集資料看得出來你們要研擬一個限值的管制你們最右欄VOC的含量限值建議指你們未來想要的管制方法\n\n07:45.982 --> 08:02.790\n你去市場收集比如說第一它第75個百分之75都是69的單位了那你就會建議說那我就定為70市場目前69大多數都69我就定70市場大部分都是514第二欄我就建議500那你看一下如果市場大部分都是692\n\n08:14.557 --> 08:32.432\n那你就想說你就趨近於CNS標準變500就是一類的溶劑型的然後你再看你定的標準就是G類的溶劑型的市場75%都是668你就定了一個450跟CNS標準一樣\n\n08:33.533 --> 08:54.667\n我們的意思是什麼意思是說你其實是就市場牽制於市場然後頂多是訂到CNS標準那你看歐盟的標準這些歐盟的標準你們其實遠遠的落後於歐盟的標準看得出來啦其實都是牽制於這個市場標準\n\n08:56.755 --> 09:23.070\n那你們在研擬未來D到L的這些VOS限值的時候都是用市場的產品現況來決定你的限值要怎麼定如果這樣的規劃裡面其實你是在反映市場趨勢而不是實際健康的風險你是就市場的這個數據而不是基於健康需求也不是基於環境需求而不是實際的風險上的需求\n\n09:25.325 --> 09:36.620\n所以你到底是不是經濟部的小弟這樣的做法來讓產業決定標準而不是透過健康數據和科學的數據和環境的需求來決定標準這難道不是對公共健康的妥協嗎\n\n09:44.290 --> 09:49.433\n這難道不是落入人家對你質疑的是不是經濟部的小弟的這個問號嗎所以你對D類到L類這些塗料的產品VOCS的含量標準你雖然是建議人家委外他是建議你這樣訂你會不會這樣訂還是一個問號喔搞不好你訂的會比委外的建議值還要更寬鬆\n\n10:11.090 --> 10:25.997\n第一個你到底要不要訂你要期程會是怎麼訂那什麼時候可以完成全面的這個建物和工業塗料的這個維護的這些管制限職的公告你們大概會是什麼期程去規劃\n\n10:27.643 --> 10:35.629\n報告委員這個是一個計畫啦我還沒有看到這個計畫的數字對啊遙遙無期啦你們建議要訂的這個數字我們已經很不滿意了這個是配合產業需求去建議的喔我們已經很不滿意喔但是還是遙遙無期不一定會訂啊現在D到L是0沒有規定沒有規定0規定所以現在問你你到底要不要規定你的起承會是什麼\n\n10:57.299 --> 11:02.894\n包委因為我還沒有看到這個報告那這個未來是一定會定的未來是未來多久啊未來\n\n11:07.549 --> 11:32.105\n跟委員報告目前我們初步規劃是會先針對DEF的部分在今年來DEF那你們的標準會照建議的還是還會更寬鬆跟委員報告因為現在資料在收集我們還在討論當中這個都已經幫你們做好收集市場上的產品都是這樣子的了你們是配合市場產品的數據去定限值的啊\n\n11:33.349 --> 11:44.700\n那個是委外計畫我知道啊人家委外研究就去做後市場查驗了去看了啊那你DEF以外的GHIJKL呢所以你們是沒有看法你們保證你今天在這裡回答都不及格沒有擔當沒有破例沒有承諾\n\n11:55.325 --> 12:15.780\n但以前都沒工喔沒有沒有這個是委外的研究計畫我還沒有看到這個數字然後VOC的管制是我未來一定會做的但是我們真的報告委員因為我只有好這個只是建物和工業塗料那我要再問你一般性消費產品喔完全沒有管制喔連排放量都沒有掌握喔消費性商品喔這個消費性商品\n\n12:22.199 --> 12:47.130\n我剛剛還有一個更重要的數據但是因為我的表格在講的話會拖更多時間我就算我先講一般消費性商品好了這個液體清潔劑乏用化妝品空氣清新劑它具有化學活性這種VOCS都具有化學活性在強烈的日照和氮氧化物存在下會進行一連串的光化反應而產生臭氧還有過氧硝酸乙烯酯\n\n12:47.470 --> 13:08.399\n就是PAN等二次污染物不但使得空氣品質惡化以外還會刺激呼吸系統導致各種不利健康的影響而且還可能降低這個能見度其實對個人的健康風險其實影響很大那還有這種揮發性的化學物質的揮發有機物的排放量資料為管制重要的工作基礎\n\n13:09.139 --> 13:32.485\n那你只有唯有掌握了這一些排放量你才有辦法討論到如何進行管制那了解了這一些排放量的主要貢獻產品類別和品項很重要還可以作為減量效益的這個估算的基礎可是沒有母法授權現在也沒有辦法沒有強制申報和登錄那你們知道一年的大概多少排放量你們調查的出來嗎\n\n13:33.869 --> 13:53.694\n委員這個是我們現在正在處理的啦所以再給我一點時間你們的委外的資料也沒有啊你現在有委外嗎沒有啊有委外的也沒有啊有母法授權嗎沒有啊報告委員目前有委託工業技術研究院在進行相關的調查跟搜集什麼時候開始委託的什麼時候結案報告委員去年開始去年預計什麼時候結案多少經費\n\n14:05.214 --> 14:10.358\n你提供給我你現在講不出來我告訴你隨便在這裡虛以為疑立違青菜公我有在做啊這講一句話很簡單的啦但是問你比較詳細的你就說不出來了啦其實有做沒做不知道啦報告在哪裡不知道啦沒關係我問你看到一句話你同不同意建立含有VOCS化學製品排放量的申報制度我同意你同意好\n\n14:30.543 --> 14:43.693\n那你自己就好好的進行規劃你說去年去看了然後看起來好像很有感然後好像你要進行管制了你也同意要申報制度了可是我就等著看你什麼時候做因為國際都已經在要加嚴管理台灣卻連開始都還沒有開始現在連盤點連估算到底有多少申報多少量都不知道製造多少量輸入多少量不知道什麼都不知道\n\n14:55.962 --> 15:13.225\n那現在加州的這個一般的VOCS的消費性商品包括這些東西它對現行標準對空氣清淨劑的VOCS含量限制為20到30%而且PY在2023年它在2023年就下降到10%2031年預計要進一步的降到5%然後髮妝用的定型噴霧劑之前是55%\n\n15:21.567 --> 15:49.176\n那未來要降到2023年就降到了502031年要降到45%那美國的EPA他1996年也就開始管制然後到2013年制定了很多他們都很積極的在管制管制的方式就是透過製造商輸入商經銷商要遵守特定的VOCS的含量限值在這種狀況裡面其實美國都已經在用而且他們訂出很具體說我一年要減少幾萬噸\n\n15:50.717 --> 16:02.624\n很具體所以在這種狀況裡面你要委外的研究裡面其實你們的VOCS的成分我們看那個髮妝用品的部分還有這個空氣清新劑全部都超標全部都超過國外的標準因為台灣沒有標準嘛\n\n16:07.947 --> 16:26.639\n那你們在研擬這個標準的時候也沒有積極的對接到國際標準你們還是以廠商現有的技術能力市場既有的產品然後為基準去訂出遠低於國際標準的鬆散法規那像這個\n\n16:28.226 --> 16:39.028\n清潔劑的使用你去看環境部把它分成加壓式和一般式而你看你們去市場檢測就是這個紫色的實際檢測最大值然後最大值最上面你們就定出你們你預計可能想要的他委託的單位建議你們的就是四正方形的紅色的格子格子狀的然後你們定的標準你定的標準都遠比於\n\n16:56.952 --> 17:08.790\n加州的、美國的、香港的都還要更寬鬆許多看起來環境部沒有因應健康需求沒有因應環境需求的或是國際標準而是以業者技術做不到\n\n17:12.735 --> 17:21.945\n現有的市場產品就是這種標準略低於現有的市場的產品直接評估將標準定在這種30WTE的%所以更無視於國際更嚴格的規定這個是清潔劑你看下一個是空氣清新劑你同樣的沒有以國際標準為依據\n\n17:33.797 --> 17:36.639\n都還是就市場現有的產品然後產品的現況定出一個建議的標準然後去折衷就以這個實際檢測的75%的數據將標準定成80WT而不是參照國際趨勢去加嚴我最後要說你這樣子委外的單位跟你建議的\n\n18:03.208 --> 18:18.952\n你這樣的標準制定方式都不是基於健康和環境需求就是單純的配合業者的能力讓現有的產品都不必大幅的修改就能通過檢驗結果導致了台灣的VOCS的管制遠遠落後國際連基本的門檻都沒有辦法提升\n\n18:24.633 --> 18:49.552\n它影響了我們剛剛講清潔的空氣清新劑的不是只有危害到這個是戶外空氣品質它這個都在室內而且不太容易易散國外人平均有80%到90%的時間都是在室內而建築工業塗料它這個是在戶外居多但是建築塗料也一大部分都是在室內屋頂的牆面的\n\n18:52.785 --> 19:16.230\n所以這個大家國際的經驗告訴你說這種消費線產品都在室內不容易易散第二個這一種管制必須是全面且系統性的管制才能有效所以我們在這種狀況不管制不納管對個人健康影響很大我在最後問你就是說你擴大管制加強管制跟國際標準對接你有沒有這樣的計畫部長\n\n19:17.947 --> 19:39.808\n包委員這個是我們我去年去完了之後就跟同仁討論去東京剛好看到東京都在做這個事啦然後我有特別交代然後他們其實這個委員提供的資料是我們委外的一個計畫從你們委外計畫來看就知道已經夠糟了啊沒有那個是委外計畫做不是我們做啊所以你的意思是說你訂的標準會比委外計畫訂的更嚴格\n\n19:43.331 --> 19:50.916\n這個我們會來研究好不好但我不是要問你嚴格的問題我要問你期程啊你不要告訴我說你未來會做結果你下台了還沒做\n\n19:53.826 --> 20:16.960\n我們擔心的是這個啊你是不是要針對消費性產品VLCS管制你有沒有短中長期的計畫五年內你有沒有要多少類別消費性產品類別要納管你預期有沒有設定一個減量的目標和效益委員再給我們一點時間內部討論可以嗎好那我下次問你顯然就應該要有答案了\n\n20:18.001 --> 20:19.383\n我第一次拋出這個議題,你說你還沒有看過,那我就讓你有點時間去準備可以,沒問題,謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.109,"end":1.429,"text":"謝謝主席,是不是請我們彭部長來請部長"},{"start":28.499,"end":53.869,"text":"林委員好部長好其實大家今天談很多但我想要談一個制度面的就想要跟你討論一下這個消費性產品的VOCS排放你的管制工具不足那其實這樣的空瓶跟國人健康更是息息相關的這個制度面那大家都知道非花訊那個"},{"start":55.81,"end":82.831,"text":"揮發性有機化合物就VOCS是形成臭氧和PM2.5的重要的前驅物質它會導致空氣品質惡化也會嚴重的危害國人的健康但是如果我們不要講固定污染源和移動污染源我們扣除了固定污染源和移動污染源根據你們自己的說法和統計"},{"start":84.392,"end":100.687,"text":"消費性的商品含有VOCS的排放量一年大概有18.7萬噸但是很驚人的這樣的排放量你看它是佔我國VOCS排放總量的41%這是你們最新的數據41%"},{"start":103.169,"end":113.743,"text":"那換句話說它已經是成為就你們這一張圖來看它是成為我國VOCS排放量的最大來源之一超過許多的工業"},{"start":115.222,"end":120.726,"text":"污染源的排放也超過了這個移動污染源你看這張表它就是獨樹一格那消費性的商品包括我們大家 而且都跟個人消費行為有關法膠 清潔產品 噴漆 黏著劑 發香劑 建物的塗料等等"},{"start":134.915,"end":151.428,"text":"所以它是跟人民的生活息息相關的緊密的聯合在一起的而且它對個人的健康的風險影響也非常大的而且大多數都是在室內使用的所以呢每年使用這麼大量的上億個的這樣的消費性的商品累計造成的這個不良的影響非常的驚人"},{"start":156.872,"end":175.38,"text":"那如果講環境的話這個人健康影響非常大那講環境我剛剛講了它就是臭氧還有PM2.5的重要的前去物質所以它也是我國空氣品質不良的主要污染物之一可是你們管制了什麼保電有靈觀這下"},{"start":177.017,"end":188.561,"text":"報告委員其實這個問題我去年年底的時候剛好去東京看了一個展看到日本的東京都他就針對這個VOC有一個非常大的攤位就是剛剛委員對啦看了這個展以後對你的影響是什麼對你們在政策上的回饋是什麼"},{"start":193.904,"end":208.859,"text":"隨即就有跟我們大氣師在討論那目前來看的話我們是針對這個塗料的非灰性的這個VOC的進行一個管制但是我們發現還有生活還有很多例如說我們噴髮膠等等的都有在裡面啦"},{"start":209.079,"end":228.095,"text":"你這樣講當然講得很好聽啊就是說你們現在目前納管的就是建物還有工業維護塗料中的三類別和五種塗料你們訂出了VOCS成分的限職規定那包括室內的牆壁啦天花板用的塗料啦和室外的牆壁用的塗料"},{"start":230.077,"end":248.354,"text":"就是你們分類裡面的C1 C2還有C3這種類別但是這樣子有限的管制措施你們的預期可以達到多少的排放量的目標管制你知道嗎包委員就是你上面說的他大概佔了大概十幾二十幾左右沒有啦"},{"start":249.659,"end":260.146,"text":"沒有到那麼高因為我說消費性的這一個總排放量是18.7萬噸消費性商品可是你的管制起來你們預期達到的是18.7萬你這樣預期的管制目標只有2000噸"},{"start":267.711,"end":290.557,"text":"佔建物塗料VOCS排放量的6%然後離有效控制消費性商品VOCS排放量的目標相去甚遠更令人擔心的是我們知道這裡面佔最多比的是一般和其他消費性商品而不只是你這裡管制的工業和建物使用的塗料"},{"start":291.357,"end":304.971,"text":"更多的是跟人民洗洗相關的消費性商品像液體清潔劑法用的化妝品空氣清新劑這種管制的速度非常的慢而且沒有具體的管制標準保證"},{"start":307.262,"end":322.353,"text":"這樣要怎麼辦報告委員因為這個問題我有去跟我們同仁討論過第一個是他的項目非常非常的多元而且是整個體系要去做一個很大的改變所以我們也在真的在蒐集資料說例如說日本是怎麼管制的因為他那個生活環境"},{"start":324.534,"end":341.54,"text":"我先就建物塗料的管制來就教育你因為你已經選擇了也要優先從建物塗料開始先優先去管啊但是你的管理的制度根本是市場導向而不是基於健康環境和科學的數據"},{"start":342.881,"end":357.997,"text":"你人家問你說你是不是經濟部的小弟啊你說你不是小弟可是我們來看你到底是不是小弟從制度面來檢驗嘛你們在108年上8月你還沒上任就公告了建物及工業維護塗料"},{"start":360.299,"end":376.248,"text":"揮發性有機物的存分標準你們第一階段就是優先要針對CNS15080CNS都有標準啦不過它是一個參考而不是一個強制性的嘛那在這個裡面CNS裡面CNS158012類的塗料種類你只要納 你現在只納管ABC"},{"start":382.651,"end":386.241,"text":"然後現在這個DEF這種你通通都沒有有沒有CNS的所有塗料的種類 玉琴有沒有"},{"start":391.53,"end":414.677,"text":"OK 沒關係你只納管了室內牆壁 室內天花板還有室外牆壁用塗料其他的DEFG就是這些通通沒有都沒有納管然後造成大量的VOCS排放到大器當中那你們委外有研究報告喔除了D D類就是室內外的木器 金屬 塑膠用的修飾和保護塗料"},{"start":415.897,"end":438.209,"text":"還有F F就是你們室內外最小模後木材著色料I單一型塗料 K多彩塗料L裝飾效果塗料anyway這些都是建物的這個12大類的塗料建物和工業使用的這個塗料你們的管制是這樣子管制的來看一下"},{"start":440.814,"end":465.202,"text":"你們的水溶性塗料含量你們是去做市場調查喔這些數據歷年來檢測數據統計是去做後市場調查就現有的市場去蒐集資料蒐集資料看得出來你們要研擬一個限值的管制你們最右欄VOC的含量限值建議指你們未來想要的管制方法"},{"start":465.982,"end":482.79,"text":"你去市場收集 比如說第一它第75個 百分之75都是69的單位了那你就會建議說 那我就定為70市場目前69 大多數都69 我就定70市場大部分都是514第二欄 我就建議500那你看一下 如果市場大部分都是692"},{"start":494.557,"end":512.432,"text":"那你就想說 你就趨近於CNS標準變500就是一類的 溶劑型的然後你再看 你定的標準就是G類的溶劑型的市場75%都是668你就定了一個450 跟CNS標準一樣"},{"start":513.533,"end":534.667,"text":"我們的意思是什麼 意思是說 你其實是就市場 牽制於市場然後頂多是訂到CNS標準 那你看歐盟的標準這些歐盟的標準 你們其實遠遠的落後於歐盟的標準看得出來啦 其實都是牽制於這個市場標準"},{"start":536.755,"end":563.07,"text":"那你們在研擬未來D到L的這些VOS限值的時候都是用市場的產品現況來決定你的限值要怎麼定如果這樣的規劃裡面其實你是在反映市場趨勢而不是實際健康的風險你是就市場的這個數據而不是基於健康需求也不是基於環境需求而不是實際的風險上的需求"},{"start":565.325,"end":576.62,"text":"所以你到底是不是經濟部的小弟這樣的做法來讓產業決定標準而不是透過健康數據和科學的數據和環境的需求來決定標準這難道不是對公共健康的妥協嗎"},{"start":584.29,"end":589.433,"text":"這難道不是落入人家對你質疑的是不是經濟部的小弟的這個問號嗎所以你對D類到L類這些塗料的產品VOCS的含量標準你雖然是建議人家委外他是建議你這樣訂你會不會這樣訂還是一個問號喔搞不好你訂的會比委外的建議值還要更寬鬆"},{"start":611.09,"end":625.997,"text":"第一個你到底要不要訂你要期程會是怎麼訂那什麼時候可以完成全面的這個建物和工業塗料的這個維護的這些管制限職的公告你們大概會是什麼期程去規劃"},{"start":627.643,"end":635.629,"text":"報告委員 這個是一個計畫啦我還沒有看到這個計畫的數字對啊 遙遙無期啦你們建議要訂的這個數字我們已經很不滿意了這個是配合產業需求去建議的喔我們已經很不滿意喔但是還是遙遙無期不一定會訂啊現在D到L是0沒有規定 沒有規定 0規定所以現在問你 你到底要不要規定你的起承會是什麼"},{"start":657.299,"end":662.894,"text":"包委因為我還沒有看到這個報告那這個未來是一定會定的未來是未來多久啊未來"},{"start":667.549,"end":692.105,"text":"跟委員報告目前我們初步規劃是會先針對DEF的部分在今年來DEF那你們的標準會照建議的還是還會更寬鬆跟委員報告因為現在資料在收集我們還在討論當中這個都已經幫你們做好收集市場上的產品都是這樣子的了你們是配合市場產品的數據去定限值的啊"},{"start":693.349,"end":704.7,"text":"那個是委外計畫 我知道啊 人家委外研究就去做後市場查驗了 去看了啊那你DEF以外的GHIJKL呢 所以你們是沒有看法你們 保證你今天在這裡回答都不及格沒有擔當 沒有破例 沒有承諾"},{"start":715.325,"end":735.78,"text":"但以前都沒工喔沒有沒有 這個是委外的研究計畫我還沒有看到這個數字然後VOC的管制是我未來一定會做的但是我們真的報告委員因為我只有好 這個只是建物和工業塗料那我要再問你一般性消費產品喔完全沒有管制喔 連排放量都沒有掌握喔消費性商品喔這個消費性商品"},{"start":742.199,"end":767.13,"text":"我剛剛還有一個更重要的數據但是因為我的表格在講的話會拖更多時間我就算我先講一般消費性商品好了這個液體清潔劑 乏用化妝品 空氣清新劑它具有化學活性這種VOCS都具有化學活性在強烈的日照和氮氧化物存在下會進行一連串的光化反應而產生臭氧還有過氧硝酸 乙烯酯"},{"start":767.47,"end":788.399,"text":"就是PAN等二次污染物不但使得空氣品質惡化以外還會刺激呼吸系統導致各種不利健康的影響而且還可能降低這個能見度其實對個人的健康風險其實影響很大那還有這種揮發性的化學物質的揮發有機物的排放量資料為管制重要的工作基礎"},{"start":789.139,"end":812.485,"text":"那你只有唯有掌握了這一些排放量你才有辦法討論到如何進行管制那了解了這一些排放量的主要貢獻產品類別和品項很重要還可以作為減量效益的這個估算的基礎可是沒有母法授權現在也沒有辦法沒有強制申報和登錄那你們知道一年的大概多少排放量你們調查的出來嗎"},{"start":813.869,"end":833.694,"text":"委員這個是我們現在正在處理的啦所以再給我一點時間你們的委外的資料也沒有啊你現在有委外嗎沒有啊有委外的也沒有啊有母法授權嗎沒有啊報告委員目前有委託工業技術研究院在進行相關的調查跟搜集什麼時候開始委託的什麼時候結案報告委員去年開始去年預計什麼時候結案多少經費"},{"start":845.214,"end":850.358,"text":"你提供給我 你現在講不出來我告訴你 隨便在這裡虛以為疑 立違青菜公我有在做啊這講一句話很簡單的啦但是問你比較詳細的 你就說不出來了啦其實有做沒做不知道啦 報告在哪裡不知道啦沒關係 我問你看到一句話你同不同意建立含有VOCS化學製品排放量的申報制度我同意你同意 好"},{"start":870.543,"end":883.693,"text":"那你自己就好好的進行規劃你說去年去看了然後看起來好像很有感然後好像你要進行管制了你也同意要申報制度了可是我就等著看你什麼時候做因為國際都已經在要加嚴管理台灣卻連開始都還沒有開始現在連盤點連估算到底有多少申報多少量都不知道製造多少量輸入多少量不知道什麼都不知道"},{"start":895.962,"end":913.225,"text":"那現在加州的這個一般的VOCS的消費性商品包括這些東西它對現行標準對空氣清淨劑的VOCS含量限制為20到30%而且PY在2023年它在2023年就下降到10%2031年預計要進一步的降到5%然後髮妝用的定型噴霧劑之前是55%"},{"start":921.567,"end":949.176,"text":"那未來要降到2023年就降到了502031年要降到45%那美國的EPA他1996年也就開始管制然後到2013年制定了很多他們都很積極的在管制管制的方式就是透過製造商 輸入商 經銷商要遵守特定的VOCS的含量限值在這種狀況裡面其實美國都已經在用而且他們訂出很具體說我一年要減少幾萬噸"},{"start":950.717,"end":962.624,"text":"很具體所以在這種狀況裡面你要委外的研究裡面其實你們的VOCS的成分我們看那個髮妝用品的部分還有這個空氣清新劑全部都超標全部都超過國外的標準因為台灣沒有標準嘛"},{"start":967.947,"end":986.639,"text":"那你們在研擬這個標準的時候也沒有積極的對接到國際標準你們還是以廠商現有的技術能力市場既有的產品然後為基準去訂出遠低於國際標準的鬆散法規那像這個"},{"start":988.226,"end":999.028,"text":"清潔劑的使用你去看環境部把它分成加壓式和一般式而你看你們去市場檢測就是這個紫色的實際檢測最大值然後最大值最上面你們就定出你們你預計可能想要的他委託的單位建議你們的就是四正方形的紅色的格子格子狀的然後你們定的標準你定的標準都遠比於"},{"start":1016.952,"end":1028.79,"text":"加州的、美國的、香港的都還要更寬鬆許多看起來環境部沒有因應健康需求沒有因應環境需求的或是國際標準而是以業者技術做不到"},{"start":1032.735,"end":1041.945,"text":"現有的市場產品就是這種標準 略低於現有的市場的產品直接評估將標準定在這種30WTE的%所以更無視於國際更嚴格的規定 這個是清潔劑你看下一個是空氣清新劑 你同樣的沒有以國際標準為依據"},{"start":1053.797,"end":1056.639,"text":"都還是就市場現有的產品然後產品的現況定出一個建議的標準然後去折衷就以這個實際檢測的75%的數據將標準定成80WT而不是參照國際趨勢去加嚴我最後要說你這樣子委外的單位跟你建議的"},{"start":1083.208,"end":1098.952,"text":"你這樣的標準制定方式都不是基於健康和環境需求就是單純的配合業者的能力讓現有的產品都不必大幅的修改就能通過檢驗結果導致了台灣的VOCS的管制遠遠落後國際連基本的門檻都沒有辦法提升"},{"start":1104.633,"end":1129.552,"text":"它影響了我們剛剛講清潔的空氣清新劑的不是只有危害到這個是戶外空氣品質它這個都在室內而且不太容易易散國外人平均有80%到90%的時間都是在室內而建築工業塗料它這個是在戶外居多但是建築塗料也一大部分都是在室內屋頂的牆面的"},{"start":1132.785,"end":1156.23,"text":"所以這個大家國際的經驗告訴你說這種消費線產品都在室內不容易易散第二個 這一種管制必須是全面且系統性的管制才能有效所以我們在這種狀況不管制 不納管對個人健康影響很大我在最後問你就是說你擴大管制 加強管制 跟國際標準對接你有沒有這樣的計畫 部長"},{"start":1157.947,"end":1179.808,"text":"包委員這個是我們我去年去完了之後就跟同仁討論去東京剛好看到東京都在做這個事啦然後我有特別交代然後他們其實這個委員提供的資料是我們委外的一個計畫從你們委外計畫來看就知道已經夠糟了啊沒有那個是委外計畫做不是我們做啊所以你的意思是說你訂的標準會比委外計畫訂的更嚴格"},{"start":1183.331,"end":1190.916,"text":"這個我們會來研究好不好但我不是要問你嚴格的問題我要問你期程啊你不要告訴我說你未來會做結果你下台了還沒做"},{"start":1193.826,"end":1216.96,"text":"我們擔心的是這個啊你是不是要針對消費性產品VLCS管制你有沒有短中長期的計畫五年內你有沒有要多少類別消費性產品類別要納管你預期有沒有設定一個減量的目標和效益委員再給我們一點時間內部討論可以嗎好那我下次問你顯然就應該要有答案了"},{"start":1218.001,"end":1219.383,"text":"我第一次拋出這個議題,你說你還沒有看過,那我就讓你有點時間去準備可以,沒問題,謝謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":763,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時17分）謝謝主席，是不是請彭部長？"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長好。其實大家今天談很多，但我想要談一個制度面的，想要跟你討論一下有關消費性產品的VOCs排放，你的管制工具不足，其實這樣的空品跟國人健康更是息息相關的。大家都知道，揮發性有機化合物（VOCs）是形成臭氧和PM2.5的重要前驅物質，它會導致空氣品質惡化，也會嚴重的危害國人的健康，但是如果我們不要講固定污染源和移動污染源，我們扣除了固定污染源和移動污染源，根據你們自己的說法和統計，消費性的商品含有VOCs的排放量一年大概有18.7萬噸，但是很驚人的，這樣的排放量是占我國VOCs排放總量的41%，這是你們最新的數據。換句話說，就你們這一張圖來看，它已經成為我國VOCs排放量的最大來源之一，超過許多工業污染源的排放，也超過了移動污染源，你看這張表，它就是獨樹一格。消費性的商品都跟個人消費行為有關，包括髮膠、清潔產品、噴漆、黏著劑、芳香劑、建物的塗料等等，所以它是跟人民的生活息息相關，緊密的聯合在一起，它對個人健康風險的影響也非常大，而且大多數都是在室內使用，因為每年使用這麼大量、上億個這樣的消費性商品，所以累計造成的不良影響非常的驚人。除了對個人健康的影響非常大，如果講到環境的話，我剛剛講了，它就是臭氧還有PM2.5重要的前驅物質，所以它也是我國空氣品質不良的主要污染物之一，可是你們管制了什麼？部長，你們管制了什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實關於這個問題，我在去年年底的時候剛好去東京看了一個展，看到日本的東京都針對這個VOC有一個非常大的攤位，就是剛剛委員所提的生活性……"],["林委員淑芬：對啦！在看了這個展以後，對你的影響是什麼？對你們在政策上的回饋是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：我隨即就跟我們大氣司在討論，那目前來看的話，我們是針對塗料有揮發性的VOC進行管制，但是我們發現生活上還有很多，例如說我們噴髮膠等等的其實都有在裡面。"],["林委員淑芬：好啦！你這樣講，當然是講得很好聽，你們目前納管的就是建物還有工業維護塗料中的三類別和五種塗料，你們定出了VOCs成分的限值規定，包括室內牆壁、天花板用的塗料和室外牆壁用的塗料，就是你們分類裡面的C1、C2還有C3這種類別，但是這樣子有限的管制措施，你們預期可以達到多少排放量的管制目標，你知道嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，就是你這個資料上面寫的，它大概占了百分之十幾、二十幾左右，一般消費……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有啦！沒有到那麼高。"],["彭部長啓明：我說的是塗料。"],["林委員淑芬：我說消費性商品的總排放量是18.7萬噸。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["林委員淑芬：總排放量是18.7萬噸，可是你這樣預期的管制目標只有2,000噸，占建物塗料VOCs排放量的6%，然後離有效控制消費性商品VOCs排放量的目標相去甚遠。更令人擔心的是，我們知道這裡面占最多百分比的是一般和其它消費性商品，而不只是你這裡管制的工業和建物所使用塗料，更多的是跟人民息息相關的消費性商品，像液體清潔劑、髮用的化妝品、空氣清新劑，對這種商品管制的速度非常慢，而且沒有具體的管制標準，部長，這樣要怎麼辦？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，對於這個問題我有去跟我們同仁討論過，第一個，它的項目非常非常的多元，而且是整個體系要去做一個很大的改變，所以我們真的在蒐集資料，例如說日本是怎麼管制的，因為他們的生活比較……"],["林委員淑芬：部長，這樣「無彩」你去日本看了，我先就建物塗料的管制來就教於你，因為你們已經宣布了，要優先從建物塗料開始去管啊！但是你的管理制度根本是市場導向，而不是基於健康、環境和科學的數據，人家問你：你是不是經濟部的小弟啊？你說你不是小弟，可是我們來看你到底是不是小弟，就從制度面來檢驗嘛！在你還沒上任的時候，你們在108年8月就公告了建物及工業維護塗料揮發性有機物的成分標準，你們第一階段就是要優先針對CNS-15080，CNS都有標準，不過它是一個參考，而不是一個強制性的嘛！在CNS-15080裡面這12個塗料種類，你現在只納管A、B、C，然後現在對D、E、F這種通通都沒有。你只納管了室內牆壁、室內天花板還有室外牆壁用塗料，其它的D、E、F、G這一些通通都沒有納管，然後造成大量的VOCs排放到大氣當中，那你們有委外做了研究報告，除了D類，D類就是室內、外的木器、金屬、塑膠用的修飾和保護塗料；還有F類，F類就是室內、外最小膜厚木材著色料；I類是單液型塗料；K類是多彩塗料；L類是裝飾效果塗料。anyway，這些都是建物12大類的塗料，是建物和工業使用的塗料，你們的管制是這樣子管制的。","來，我們看一下，你們對於水溶性塗料含量是去做市場調查，歷年檢測數據的統計是去做後市場調查，就現有的市場去蒐集資料，從蒐集資料看得出來，你們要研擬一個限值的管制，最右欄是VOC含量限值的建議值，是你們未來想要採取的管制方法，你去市場蒐集，比如說D類，D類75%都是69單位了，那你就會建議定為70，市場上目前是69，大多數都是69，所以就定為70。像第二欄在市場上大部分都是514，所以就建議定為500。那你看一下，如果市場上大部分都是692，那你就趨近於CNS的標準變500，就是E類的溶劑型。然後你再看你所定的標準，像G類的溶劑型在市場75%都是668，你就定了450，跟CNS的標準一樣。我們的意思是什麼？意思就是說你其實是就市場、受市場牽制，然後頂多是定到CNS標準。那你看歐盟的標準，和這些歐盟的標準相比，你們其實遠遠落後於歐盟的標準，看得出來啦！其實都是被這個市場標準所牽制。那你們在研擬未來D類到L類的這些VOCs限值的時候，都是用市場的產品現況來決定你的限值要怎麼定，如果是這樣的規劃，其實你是在反映市場趨勢，而不是實際健康的風險，你是就市場的這個數據，而不是基於健康需求，也不是基於環境需求，並不是實際的風險上的需求。","所以你到底是不是經濟部的小弟？採這樣的作法來讓產業決定標準，而不是透過健康的數據、科學的數據和環境的需求來決定標準，這難道不是讓公共健康妥協了嗎？這難道不會讓人家質疑你是不是經濟部小弟而打上問號嗎？所以對於D類到L類這些塗料產品中VOCs含量的標準，雖然你委外研究的報告是建議你這樣定，但是你會不會這樣定，這還是一個問號喔！搞不好你定的會比委外研究報告的建議值還要更寬鬆。第一個，你到底要不要定？你訂定的期程會是怎麼樣？什麼時候可以全面完成建物和工業塗料管制限值的公告？你們大概會照什麼樣的期程去規劃？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個是一個計畫，我還沒有看到最後的數字。"],["林委員淑芬：遙遙無期啦！對你們建議要定的這個數值，我們已經很不滿意了，這個是配合產業需求去建議的，我們已經很不滿意喔！但是這還是遙遙無期，不一定會定，現在D類到L類是零，是沒有規定、零規定，所以現在問題是你到底要不要規定？你的期程會是怎麼樣？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為我還沒有看到這個報告，那這個未來是一定會定的……"],["林委員淑芬：你說未來是還要多久？"],["黃司長偉鳴：跟委員報告，目前我們初步規劃是會先針對D、E、F的部分在今年來做……"],["林委員淑芬：你說D、E、F，那你們的標準會照建議的，還是更寬鬆？"],["黃司長偉鳴：跟委員報告，因為現在還在蒐集資料，我們還在討論當中。"],["林委員淑芬：這個都已經幫你們蒐集好，市場上的產品都是這樣子了，你們是配合市場產品的數據去定限值的啊！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個是委外計畫所做的建議。"],["林委員淑芬：我知道啊！你們委外的研究人員去做後市場查驗，有去看了啊！那你除了D、E、F以外的G、H、I、J、K、L呢？所以你們是沒有看法嗎？部長，你今天在這裡的回答都沒有及格喔！沒有擔當、沒有魄力、沒有承諾，跟以前都不一樣喔！"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有，這個是委外的研究計畫，我還沒有看到這個數字，然後VOC的管制是我未來一定會做的，但是我們真的要報告委員，因為我只有兩、三個月的時間處理……"],["林委員淑芬：好，這個只是建物和工業塗料，那我還要再問你一般性消費產品，完全沒有管制，連排放量都沒有掌握喔！關於消費性商品……我剛剛還有一個更重要的數據，但是因為我再講表格的話會拖更多時間，算了，我先講一般消費性商品好了。液體清潔劑、髮用化妝品、空氣清新劑具有化學活性，這種VOCs都具有化學活性，在強烈日照和氮氧化物存在下會進行一連串的光化反應，而產生臭氧及過氧硝酸乙醯酯（PAN）等二次污染物，不但使得空氣品質惡化以外，還會刺激呼吸系統，導致各種不利健康的影響，而且還可能降低能見度，其實對個人的健康風險影響很大。含有這種揮發性化學物質的揮發有機物排放量資料為管制重要的工作基礎，唯有掌握這一些排放量，才有辦法討論如何進行管制，瞭解這些排放量的主要貢獻產品類別和品項很重要，還可以作為減量效益的估算基礎，可是沒有母法授權，現在也沒有強制申報和登錄，你們知道一年大概有多少排放量，你們調查的出來嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這個是我們現在正在處理的，所以再給我一點時間。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有啊！你們的委外資料也沒有，你現在有委外嗎？沒有啊！有委外的也沒有。有母法授權嗎？沒有啊！"],["黃司長偉鳴：報告委員，目前有委託工業技術研究院在進行相關的調查和蒐集。"],["林委員淑芬：什麼時候開始委託的？什麼時候結案？"],["黃司長偉鳴：報告委員，去年開始。"],["林委員淑芬：預計什麼時候結案？多少經費？你再提供給我，因為你現在也講不出來。我告訴你，不要隨便在這裡虛與委蛇立委，隨便說你有在做了，說一句話是很簡單的，但是如果我再問得詳細一點，你就答不出來了，其實有沒有做不知道，報告在哪裡也不知道。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為這個VOCs的量很多……"],["林委員淑芬：沒關係，我只問部長一句話，你同不同意建立含有VOCs化學製品排放量的申報制度？"],["彭部長啓明：我同意。"],["林委員淑芬：好，那你自己就好好的進行規劃，你說去年去看了，看起來好像很有感，你好像要進行管制了，你也同意要建立申報制度，可是我就等著看你什麼時候做，因為國際都已經要加嚴管理，臺灣卻連開始都還沒有開始，現在連盤點、估算到底有多少，申報多少量都不知道，製造多少量、輸入多少量不知道，什麼都不知道。現在加州的一般消費性商品VOCs包括這些東西，現行標準對空氣清淨劑的VOCs含量限制為20到30%，而且在2023年就下降到10%，2031年預計要進一步降到5%；髮妝用的定型噴霧劑之前是55%，2023年就降到了50%，2031年要降到45%。美國EPA於1996年就開始管制，到2013年制定了很多標準，他們都很積極地在管制，管制的方式就是透過製造商、輸入商、經銷商要遵守特定的VOCs含量限值。在這種狀況裡面其實美國已經在用，而且他們很具體訂出一年要減少幾萬噸，所以在這種狀況下，你委外的研究裡面，其實我看到你們在髮妝用品以及空氣清新劑部分的VOCs成分全部都超標，全部都超過國外的標準。","因為臺灣沒有標準，你們在研擬這個標準的時候也沒有積極地對接到國際標準，你們還是以廠商現有的技術、能力、市場既有的產品為基準，去訂出遠低於國際標準的鬆散法規，像清潔劑的使用，環境部把它分成加壓式和一般式，而你們去做市場檢測的時候，紫色的部分是實際檢測最大值，然後在最大值上面你們就訂出你們預計可能想要的，委託的單位建議你們的，也就是正方形的紅色格子狀，你們擬訂的標準都遠比於加州、美國、香港的還要更寬鬆許多。看起來環境部沒有因應健康需求、環境需求或是國際標準，而是以業者技術做不到，現有的市場產品就是這種標準，略低於現有的市場產品，直接評估將標準訂在30wt%，更無視於國際更嚴格的規定，這個是清潔劑。下一個是空氣清新劑，同樣沒有以國際標準為依據，都還是就市場現有的產品現況訂出一個建議的標準，然後再去折衷，以實際檢測75%的數據將標準訂成80wt%，而不是參照國際趨勢去加嚴。","最後，我要說的是委外單位給你的建議，這樣的標準制定方式都不是基於健康和環境需求，就是單純地配合業者的能力，讓現有的產品都不必大幅修改就能通過檢驗，結果導致臺灣的VOCs管制遠遠落後國際，連基本的門檻都沒有辦法提升。我們剛剛講的清潔劑、空氣清新劑不是只有危害到戶外空氣品質，它都在室內，而且不太容易逸散，國人平均有80%到90%的時間都是在室內，而建築工業塗料是在戶外居多，但是建築塗料也有一大部分都是在室內，屋頂的、牆面的，所以國際的經驗告訴你這種消費性產品都在室內不容易逸散。第二個，這種管制必須是全面且系統性的管制才能有效，所以我們在這種狀況不管制、不納管，對個人健康影響很大，我最後再問部長，擴大管制、加強管制與國際標準對接，有沒有這樣的計畫？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個是我去年去完了之後就跟同仁討論……"],["林委員淑芬：去完……"],["彭部長啓明：去東京，剛好看到東京都在做這個事，我有特別交代，其實委員提供的資料是我們委外的計畫，是給我們的建議而已。"],["林委員淑芬：從你們委外計畫來看就知道已經夠糟了。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，那個是委外計畫做的，不是我們做的，所以我們會再來看……"],["林委員淑芬：你的意思是你訂的標準會比委外計畫訂得更嚴格囉？"],["彭部長啓明：我們會來研議，好不好？委員給我們一點時間來研議。"],["林委員淑芬：但我不是要問你嚴格的問題，我要問你的是期程，你不要告訴我說你未來會做，結果你下臺了還沒做，我們擔心的是這個。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我不會那麼快下臺。"],["林委員淑芬：針對消費性產品VOCs的管制，你有沒有短、中、長期的計畫，五年內有沒有多少消費性產品類別要納入納管，你預期有沒有設定一個減量的目標和效益？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，再給我們一點時間做內部討論，可以嗎？"],["林委員淑芬：好，我下一次問你顯然就應該要有答案了，我第一次拋出這個議題，你說你還沒有看過，我就讓你有點時間去準備。"],["彭部長啓明：可以，沒問題。"],["林委員淑芬：可以喔？好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：下一次一定要答復清楚，不然就完了。","現在處理臨時提案，計有5案，請一併宣讀。","一、","案由：","有鑑於環境部官方報告，最新於113年度顯示出我國有37座淨水場驗出致癌及增加猝死機率的PFAS物質，為此環境部雖於同年8月預告將透過罰鍰來管理，但考量於罰鍰上路期乃預告三年後的116年7月才開始，期間為免罰空窗期，徒增民眾暴露於高危害飲用水之風險。爰此，特提案要求環境部應研議加速管理，俟後並於二個月內向衛環委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　盧縣一　　陳昭姿","二、","案由：","有鑑於我國某科技大學，最新受檢驗出飲用水供水中，乃含有劇毒且致癌苯物質並超標64倍，且被環境部裁處罰鍰。是以，為求公眾健康之完整維護，特決議應最速辦理裁處對象與所在位置周知作業，並限期於一個月內向本委員會提交應處與改善進度報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　盧縣一　　陳昭姿","三、","案由：","有鑑於當前環境部對於中央空氣汙染防制業務，多以細懸浮微粒PM2.5及臭氧03為關注之指標汙染物，是以考量當前空氣作為新興汙染物之介質，在即時監測並公開與防制上應再予加強，爰提案要求應限期於二個月內向衛環委員會提交改善書面報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　盧縣一　　陳昭姿","四、","案由：","有鑑於飲用水條例之施行，事涉國人飲用水水源水質，與公眾飲用水品質，其成效影響國民健康甚深。然而，考量該法自91年以來未有修訂，當中諸多處罰之內容乃沿用86年所修訂之規範，實凸顯環境部法制作業之怠慢，並應積極改善。爰此，特要求應限期於一個月內啟動修法研議作業，俟後並於二個月後向衛環委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　盧縣一　　陳昭姿","五、","案由：","有鑑於環境部對我國飲用水的簡易自來水（包含社區自設公共給水設備在內），整整於113年期間的抽驗結果，照官方統計數據顯示竟只有204件，當中更有9個縣市檢驗數掛零，連抽檢都沒抽檢，且還包含六都臺南市，實凸顯環境部儼然躺平把關之不當。爰此，特提案要求限期於一個月內完成加強查驗機制之啟動，並向衛環委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　盧縣一　　陳昭姿"],["主席：我們現在處理臨時提案，應該這5案都有跟提案委員溝通過嘛。"],["彭部長啓明：我們是不是每一個案子說明一下？第1案沒問題。"],["主席：我知道。"],["彭部長啓明：照委員的意見辦理。"],["主席：好。"],["彭部長啓明：第2案也沒有問題，遵照委員的意見辦理。"],["主席：好。"],["彭部長啓明：第3案也沒有問題，遵照委員的意見辦理。"],["主席：好。"],["彭部長啓明：第4案也沒有問題，遵照委員的意見辦理。"],["主席：好。"],["彭部長啓明：第5案有一點意見……"],["王司長嶽斌：我們第5案說明一下。跟委員報告，我們每年都會依照飲用水管理條例跟飲用水……我們會訂定一個飲用水的重點稽查取締計畫。以113年為例，我們自來水就查驗了1.2萬件，另外飲用水設備也查驗了7,000件。至於簡易自來水，我們查驗了204件，最主要的原因是我們有公告列管所謂的簡易自來水，它是要達到一定的規模，包含100戶、500人以上要設有廢水處理設施的設備，所以基本上這樣子的簡易自來水目前列管43處，我們查了204件，基本上幾乎1年就查驗了5次，平均一個簡易自來水設施就查驗了5次，所以不是沒有查驗。","這個部分我們是不是建議文字做這樣子的一個修正？是不是在第三行「照官方統計數據顯示」加一些字，加什麼字呢？就是「達公告列管簡易自來水抽驗竟只有204件」，「當中更有9個縣市」後面我們建議再加幾個文字，就是「因無達公告列管簡易自來水設施檢驗數掛零」，掛零之後從逗號開始到第五行句號的文字我們建議刪除，為什麼這樣說？因為基本上我們是訂有相關的重點稽查取締計畫，而且又督導縣市環保局辦理稽查，所以我們是不是把這些文字刪掉，改成「爰此，特提案要求限期一個月內提供及加強」？也把「完成」兩個字刪除，我們會再來檢討簡易自來水的管理，進一步再來做相關的協調，跟簡易自來水的主管機關，包括水利署，因為水利署那邊也有一個無自來水，就是使用簡易自來水相關的改善計畫，我們會跟它一起來做協調，我們建議是不是做以上文字的修正？再來，我們建議是不是也把「之啟動」三個字刪除？就是「特提案要求限期一個月內提供及加強查驗機制，並向衛環委員會提交書面報告」，我們一個月內找水利署再來針對簡易自來水的管理做一些相關的檢討，以上報告。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，同意。"],["主席：可以啦？"],["陳委員菁徽：可以。"],["主席：好，提案委員也同意，各位有沒有其他意見？如果沒有，我們第5案就照這樣修正通過，1到4案應該大家也都沒有意見，我們就照提案委員的提案通過。好，臨時提案全部處理完畢。","接下來繼續進行詢答，請麥玉珍委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張啓楷","張智倫","楊曜","翁曉玲","劉建國","陳瑩","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","蘇清泉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、教育部、經濟部、台灣電力公司、台灣中油公司就「氣象變異致\n國內空品惡化，精進預報與跨部會應變作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00004"}}}