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\"委\", \"start\": 791.23, \"end\": 791.25, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,750 --> 00:00:19,422\n主委,還記不記得去年本席有根據人工智慧科技基金會一份2023台灣產業AI化大調查的數據有跟您討論過關於企業還有政府AI化程度,您還記得嗎?\n\n2\n00:00:21,514 --> 00:00:33,467\n講完就忘了好來我提醒你一下在當時其實你也有認為台灣距離賴總統口中所說的AI之島還有相當的距離在那現在過了一年你認為這個距離有縮短嗎還沒有一年你還沒有想起來\n\n3\n00:00:40,776 --> 00:00:53,147\n好來我就問您啦現在我們看起來過去的您忘記了我希望您能夠去回想一下其實每一次我們的諮詢其實可能主要都要把它記在心裡面因為每一次都是很重要不能諮詢完以後就把它丟掉了好嗎要複習一下那今天在這裡不苛責您\n\n4\n00:00:57,290 --> 00:01:24,242\n但是我們看到根據人工智慧科技基金會最新的今年度的我們來看看2024台灣企業AI準備度準備調查報告裡面我國企業在數據力創造力技術力治理力跟運算力五大面向的平均分數僅僅有54.08分那麼其中技術力51.06分這是低於平均的治理力更只有41.61分\n\n5\n00:01:26,263 --> 00:01:46,297\n那刚才看到这些数据我们来看更细致的那在台湾的企业当中我们看到7.9%的企业具备资料搜集的能力但是不知道要如何应用38.6%的企业各部门自行的去搜集资料来使用可是缺乏了统一的策略管理\n\n6\n00:01:47,837 --> 00:01:56,180\n那麼35.6%AI仍然處於初步的探索階段甚至有將近9%完全沒有使用AI接下來我們看到42.6%的企業只有很少數的員工具備AI的知識但是26.7%的員工是完全不懂AI的這個數據很可怕\n\n7\n00:02:06,023 --> 00:02:10,404\n大概七成多那32.7%的企業是完全沒有設置AI專責的部門的那最後再看到高達一半以上52.5%的企業沒有機制可以確保AI模型符合國際規範這些數據那個主委我希望會後你要看不要又忘記了\n\n8\n00:02:25,849 --> 00:02:46,108\n那這個都顯示我們AI策略與風險管理上有很多的嚴重的不足喔那麼面對AI技術的一個快速發展喔那政府有沒有啊或者您這裡有沒有措施可以協助企業來提升風險管理跟相關的治理能力有沒有報告委員剛剛我先講剛剛委員提到我先問一下這些數據你都知道嗎\n\n9\n00:02:47,917 --> 00:03:02,591\n不是很清楚要了解特別這些數字但是整體的狀況就像委員講的台灣在AI的運用上面其實還有待我想這幾個數字我希望會後主委能夠去了解\n\n10\n00:03:03,231 --> 00:03:18,436\n那了解完以後你最好能夠簡單的一個報告來告訴我們這些數據你大概覺得這有什麼樣的警示或提醒那準備怎麼做我覺得這個很重要因為我沒有要求你要給我們這樣的一個報告恐怕你下次又忘記了我覺得這個提醒很重要那再來我們看\n\n11\n00:03:19,276 --> 00:03:36,032\n這些數據其實凸顯的是我國企業的AI應用普及率還是低的我相信這一點我們都同意但是這也來自於我想政府相關的AI法規到目前為止是沒有完備的所以這也會影響到我們整個台灣AI的研發跟企業對於AI的應用進程這您同意嗎同意\n\n12\n00:03:37,153 --> 00:04:01,690\n好您同意喔那所以沒有完備的AI相關法規跟配套會影響AI的發展我們都同意喔那主委其實您在上任之後也承諾會盡速提出來相關的這個AI草案喔去年的7月我們草案正式的預告10月22號草案也送到行政院在這過程當中我看到您跟同仁也都非常的努力喔不過五個月過去了為什麼還沒有看到送到本院來\n\n13\n00:04:04,291 --> 00:04:15,940\n在行政院已經在上上禮拜審完了啦行政院那最後的文字修正應該很快行政院會會報告主委我想\n\n14\n00:04:19,022 --> 00:04:36,871\n你這樣置之無物的你很難詳細交代我幫你講好了啦據本席了解行政院在2月26號院長會議當中以及2月27號主委的會議來決議說要把這個AI基本法的主政機關由國科會改為速發部請問這個決策你接受你支持嗎我們在行政院一起討論我當然是支持啦你支持為什麼\n\n15\n00:04:43,443 --> 00:05:09,785\n在行政院的會議啊我懂了因為在行政院做成這樣的決議那你也沒有不支持的空間啊好我要講的是主委這整部AIF的進本法的架構條文我剛剛說過了您跟同仁都很努力嘛是由國科會主導制定的法規的公告蒐集各方的意見也是國科會在做現在突然間換手速發布這要什麼銜接啊那國科會你要扮演什麼角色主委提一下\n\n16\n00:05:11,564 --> 00:05:34,420\n國科會協助制定這部AI基本法後續我們還是會持續來協助事務發布你會協助什麼?你現在孕育要生出來小孩要拱手送人家然後看他長大的過程當中就遠遠的望著是這樣嗎?我們還是會投入AI的研發然後來支持未來事務發布主政的時候他的需求\n\n17\n00:05:35,704 --> 00:06:04,134\n主委我想其實你聽起來就是有很多的無奈啦因為你這個人也藏不太住表情啦有非常多無奈對嗎是嗎不會啦不會沒有我看得出來啦但也很難說啦因為這是大家努力的成果嘛所以我想啊這個目前國科會你公布這個AI基本法的草案條文方向是鼓勵AI創新研究的一個方向可是呢我們知道現在所謂的要改成這個速發部\n\n18\n00:06:04,614 --> 00:06:27,755\n是在说不管是这个风险啦治安啦等等所以去改的我听起来我们是要考虑没有错但是完全把这个国科会的角色通通弱化掉我觉得也不太对因为我们知道这个草案的方向鼓励采取创新研究可是如果我们把它变成了是这个国家安全或者涉及高风险为一个这个理由改成这个速发部\n\n19\n00:06:28,195 --> 00:06:45,865\n那将来可能就会变成走这个管制AI的角度来研修这是完全不同的方向这当然我们可以讨论可是过去我们其实在做的过程当中就不是这样所以我想我们现在AI其实发展是非常的快速可能很短的时间之内就会出现很多重大的变化或者一些突破\n\n20\n00:06:46,545 --> 00:07:11,486\n那如果說我們沒有去加速趕快去把這個銀頭趕上而且我們又沒有法律的規範那我們的草案到現在呢還是這個delays我覺得我們要什麼超美趕中啦等等啦我覺得這個看起來有一點點好像遙不可及所以我希望啊國科會啊這個尤其是主委啊您帶領大家努力了這麼久是不是可以再努力一下應該跟行政院反映一下趕快把第一個送來本院來審查然後希望還是國科會來做\n\n21\n00:07:15,189 --> 00:07:19,976\n還是說現在主委覺得杯酒是冰泉了你完全沒有智慧的空間你不要哽咽了嘛\n\n22\n00:07:28,125 --> 00:07:48,073\n我們會確定這個AI基本法還是會保留創新研究的空間不會受到限制那行任這個會期絕對會受到限制我知道啦就是自己孕育的小孩我們還是希望他健康快樂長大但是我可能沒辦法撫養他就這個意思嘛但是主委我這樣講啦我對您跟團隊深具信心啦\n\n23\n00:07:48,433 --> 00:08:06,731\n我們希望不管是本席還是我們召委所提的AI基本法草案希望能夠還是以國科會為主管機關我們延續的下去來做其實這是會比較好的所以我還是希望你勇敢把它說出來接下來我想還有一題要跟主委在討論主委你日前出席大專院校校長會議的時候有指出說近年來\n\n24\n00:08:09,594 --> 00:08:22,286\n国科会稳定的挹注了科研投资全国科研经费已经达到1595亿2020年起更独立编练基础这个科研的预算五年来从282亿元增加到408亿\n\n25\n00:08:26,670 --> 00:08:43,441\n增幅达到45%所以你认为让大学没有后顾之忧但更举出来日本出现了很多诺贝尔奖的得主所以你认为台湾的教育有问题到现在没有培养出诺贝尔奖的得主真是丢脸\n\n26\n00:08:56,510 --> 00:09:21,645\n大學丟臉應該是我們整體的這個高等教育體系負責前瞻的這個學術研究讓這個學術研究的成果可以造福人類社會這整個體系所以是高等教育體系丟臉同樣是就是整個高等教育體系丟臉你要試下這個註解你確定嗎\n\n27\n00:09:28,022 --> 00:09:50,780\n應該講有權責來改變這個體系的人主委會不會覺得這個話說得過重我不是認為過重我是要提醒大家所以你還是覺得高等教育很丟臉如果按照你這樣講的話高等教育很寬除了大學以外教育部以外我們的學者都是高等教育的一環當天演講我講了兩部分一部分就是我們在學術研究\n\n28\n00:09:52,068 --> 00:10:07,126\n負責學術研究就是所謂的研究型大學一定要積極的去思考這個事情另外一部分是我們廣泛的教學型大學包含技術體系教學型大學我有提到我會怎麼協助他就是委員的建議\n\n29\n00:10:09,348 --> 00:10:28,148\n主委我有了解您那天所說的我相信你這個是有點恨鐵不成鋼的心情在裡面但您過去其實自己也是清華大學的副校長也是成功大學副校長也擔任過南台科大的校長其實你也在高校裡面所以這個丟臉是不是您也變成負責任嗎我也丟臉了\n\n30\n00:10:31,171 --> 00:10:50,502\n對所以你可能自己也是從教育體系出來的好我們除了點出問題覺得這麼丟臉之外請問一下你有沒有跟我們的教育部的部長討論一下到底為什麼這麼丟臉你有提出過問題然後也提出一些解決方式給他談過了嗎當天鄭部長也在場我們共同都會努力那所以你的說法他都贊成我不知道他內心怎麼想啊但是他\n\n31\n00:10:58,418 --> 00:11:18,895\n你覺得你在現場這一番話他內心要怎麼想沒有啦我想這樣子啦我想這樣子啦那個隨時再給我一點時間喔這番話出來之後台大校長陳文章其實有提出他的看法對於民進黨的批評指教他說產生諾貝爾獎得主的因素非常複雜除了一要長期耕耘二\n\n32\n00:11:19,335 --> 00:11:24,419\n我們也要跟這個國際學術組織這個要能夠跟上他們的腳步要能夠常常有一個互動第三個國家支持也很重要所以他說我們其實應該要來支持本土學者能夠在國際型的研討會上得獎啦或者增加這個歐美的一些相關院士的人數啦那提升一些這個台灣國際的影響力啦所以我想你看看喔\n\n33\n00:11:41,713 --> 00:11:48,398\n站在這個第一線這個校長的立場其實我不能說把球又丟回去給你因為這不是要丟來丟去問你是怎麼共同的解決所以我看起來你看你說你給了很多科研經費不是給了錢就好了如果給了錢我們就可以得到諾貝爾獎得主哪有那麼容易做的事情對不對所以我們給了這個預算補助經費我們有沒有去看看怎麼樣去設定他的KPI那怎麼樣去看他的績效又怎麼樣去輔導\n\n34\n00:12:08,274 --> 00:12:19,203\n沒有做好的地方我覺得這也是國科會要負的一點責任那最後我想再來提一下也就是說國科會把預算提高經費撒下去以後的努力我們來看國會最新的統計2022年各國執行國家研發經費的佔比我們來看台灣只佔了6.5%那您剛剛說的這個有很多諾貝爾獎得主的日本11.5%美國9.9%南韓9.1%中國大陸\n\n35\n00:12:36,676 --> 00:12:42,017\n這個7.8%瑞士28.2%荷蘭27.3%所以主委知道嗎荷蘭跟瑞士瑞士有25位的諾貝爾獎得主荷蘭有22位所以我今天要提說我們覺得我們好像就是給了很多的教育經費但是呢我們很多的科研經費也下去了但是呢主委\n\n36\n00:12:56,161 --> 00:13:11,250\n我想希望您會後不要說那一天發表完以後就像那天我們質詢完以後因為忘記了這就這麼重要點出問題然後提出建議然後跟這個部長溝通那想出辦法來到底怎麼去解決好不好你下次會不會再忘記應該不會不能應該不會一定要絕對不會好嗎絕對不會謝謝謝謝萬美林委員質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1750\t19422\t主委,還記不記得去年本席有根據人工智慧科技基金會一份2023台灣產業AI化大調查的數據有跟您討論過關於企業還有政府AI化程度,您還記得嗎?\n21514\t33467\t講完就忘了好來我提醒你一下在當時其實你也有認為台灣距離賴總統口中所說的AI之島還有相當的距離在那現在過了一年你認為這個距離有縮短嗎還沒有一年你還沒有想起來\n40776\t53147\t好來我就問您啦現在我們看起來過去的您忘記了我希望您能夠去回想一下其實每一次我們的諮詢其實可能主要都要把它記在心裡面因為每一次都是很重要不能諮詢完以後就把它丟掉了好嗎要複習一下那今天在這裡不苛責您\n57290\t84242\t但是我們看到根據人工智慧科技基金會最新的今年度的我們來看看2024台灣企業AI準備度準備調查報告裡面我國企業在數據力創造力技術力治理力跟運算力五大面向的平均分數僅僅有54.08分那麼其中技術力51.06分這是低於平均的治理力更只有41.61分\n86263\t106297\t那刚才看到这些数据我们来看更细致的那在台湾的企业当中我们看到7.9%的企业具备资料搜集的能力但是不知道要如何应用38.6%的企业各部门自行的去搜集资料来使用可是缺乏了统一的策略管理\n107837\t116180\t那麼35.6%AI仍然處於初步的探索階段甚至有將近9%完全沒有使用AI接下來我們看到42.6%的企業只有很少數的員工具備AI的知識但是26.7%的員工是完全不懂AI的這個數據很可怕\n126023\t130404\t大概七成多那32.7%的企業是完全沒有設置AI專責的部門的那最後再看到高達一半以上52.5%的企業沒有機制可以確保AI模型符合國際規範這些數據那個主委我希望會後你要看不要又忘記了\n145849\t166108\t那這個都顯示我們AI策略與風險管理上有很多的嚴重的不足喔那麼面對AI技術的一個快速發展喔那政府有沒有啊或者您這裡有沒有措施可以協助企業來提升風險管理跟相關的治理能力有沒有報告委員剛剛我先講剛剛委員提到我先問一下這些數據你都知道嗎\n167917\t182591\t不是很清楚要了解特別這些數字但是整體的狀況就像委員講的台灣在AI的運用上面其實還有待我想這幾個數字我希望會後主委能夠去了解\n183231\t198436\t那了解完以後你最好能夠簡單的一個報告來告訴我們這些數據你大概覺得這有什麼樣的警示或提醒那準備怎麼做我覺得這個很重要因為我沒有要求你要給我們這樣的一個報告恐怕你下次又忘記了我覺得這個提醒很重要那再來我們看\n199276\t216032\t這些數據其實凸顯的是我國企業的AI應用普及率還是低的我相信這一點我們都同意但是這也來自於我想政府相關的AI法規到目前為止是沒有完備的所以這也會影響到我們整個台灣AI的研發跟企業對於AI的應用進程這您同意嗎同意\n217153\t241690\t好您同意喔那所以沒有完備的AI相關法規跟配套會影響AI的發展我們都同意喔那主委其實您在上任之後也承諾會盡速提出來相關的這個AI草案喔去年的7月我們草案正式的預告10月22號草案也送到行政院在這過程當中我看到您跟同仁也都非常的努力喔不過五個月過去了為什麼還沒有看到送到本院來\n244291\t255940\t在行政院已經在上上禮拜審完了啦行政院那最後的文字修正應該很快行政院會會報告主委我想\n259022\t276871\t你這樣置之無物的你很難詳細交代我幫你講好了啦據本席了解行政院在2月26號院長會議當中以及2月27號主委的會議來決議說要把這個AI基本法的主政機關由國科會改為速發部請問這個決策你接受你支持嗎我們在行政院一起討論我當然是支持啦你支持為什麼\n283443\t309785\t在行政院的會議啊我懂了因為在行政院做成這樣的決議那你也沒有不支持的空間啊好 我要講的是主委 這整部AIF的進本法的架構條文我剛剛說過了 您跟同仁都很努力嘛是由國科會主導制定的法規的公告 蒐集各方的意見也是國科會在做現在突然間換手速發布這要什麼銜接啊那國科會你要扮演什麼角色 主委提一下\n311564\t334420\t國科會協助制定這部AI基本法後續我們還是會持續來協助事務發布你會協助什麼?你現在孕育要生出來小孩要拱手送人家然後看他長大的過程當中就遠遠的望著是這樣嗎?我們還是會投入AI的研發然後來支持未來事務發布主政的時候他的需求\n335704\t364134\t主委 我想其實你聽起來就是有很多的無奈啦因為你這個人也藏不太住表情啦有非常多無奈 對嗎是嗎不會啦 不會 沒有我看得出來啦 但也很難說啦因為這是大家努力的成果嘛所以我想啊 這個目前國科會你公布這個AI基本法的草案條文方向是鼓勵AI創新研究的一個方向可是呢 我們知道現在所謂的要改成這個速發部\n364614\t387755\t是在说不管是这个风险啦 治安啦等等所以去改的我听起来我们是要考虑没有错但是完全把这个国科会的角色通通弱化掉我觉得也不太对因为我们知道这个草案的方向鼓励采取创新研究可是如果我们把它变成了是这个国家安全或者涉及高风险为一个这个理由改成这个速发部\n388195\t405865\t那将来可能就会变成走这个管制AI的角度来研修这是完全不同的方向这当然我们可以讨论可是过去我们其实在做的过程当中就不是这样所以我想我们现在AI其实发展是非常的快速可能很短的时间之内就会出现很多重大的变化或者一些突破\n406545\t431486\t那如果說我們沒有去加速趕快去把這個銀頭趕上而且我們又沒有法律的規範那我們的草案到現在呢還是這個delays我覺得我們要什麼超美趕中啦等等啦我覺得這個看起來有一點點好像遙不可及所以我希望啊國科會啊這個尤其是主委啊您帶領大家努力了這麼久是不是可以再努力一下應該跟行政院反映一下趕快把第一個送來本院來審查然後希望還是國科會來做\n435189\t439976\t還是說現在主委覺得杯酒是冰泉了你完全沒有智慧的空間你不要哽咽了嘛\n448125\t468073\t我們會確定這個AI基本法還是會保留創新研究的空間不會受到限制那行任這個會期絕對會受到限制我知道啦就是自己孕育的小孩我們還是希望他健康快樂長大但是我可能沒辦法撫養他就這個意思嘛但是主委我這樣講啦我對您跟團隊深具信心啦\n468433\t486731\t我們希望不管是本席還是我們召委所提的AI基本法草案希望能夠還是以國科會為主管機關我們延續的下去來做其實這是會比較好的所以我還是希望你勇敢把它說出來接下來我想還有一題要跟主委在討論主委你日前出席大專院校校長會議的時候有指出說近年來\n489594\t502286\t国科会稳定的挹注了科研投资全国科研经费已经达到1595亿2020年起更独立编练基础这个科研的预算五年来从282亿元增加到408亿\n506670\t523441\t增幅达到45%所以你认为让大学没有后顾之忧但更举出来日本出现了很多诺贝尔奖的得主所以你认为台湾的教育有问题到现在没有培养出诺贝尔奖的得主真是丢脸\n536510\t561645\t大學丟臉應該是我們整體的這個高等教育體系負責前瞻的這個學術研究讓這個學術研究的成果可以造福人類社會這整個體系所以是高等教育體系丟臉同樣是就是整個高等教育體系丟臉你要試下這個註解你確定嗎\n568022\t590780\t應該講有權責來改變這個體系的人主委會不會覺得這個話說得過重我不是認為過重我是要提醒大家所以你還是覺得高等教育很丟臉如果按照你這樣講的話高等教育很寬除了大學以外教育部以外我們的學者都是高等教育的一環當天演講我講了兩部分一部分就是我們在學術研究\n592068\t607126\t負責學術研究就是所謂的研究型大學一定要積極的去思考這個事情另外一部分是我們廣泛的教學型大學包含技術體系教學型大學我有提到我會怎麼協助他就是委員的建議\n609348\t628148\t主委我有了解您那天所說的我相信你這個是有點恨鐵不成鋼的心情在裡面但您過去其實自己也是清華大學的副校長也是成功大學副校長也擔任過南台科大的校長其實你也在高校裡面所以這個丟臉是不是您也變成負責任嗎我也丟臉了\n631171\t650502\t對 所以你可能自己也是從教育體系出來的好 我們除了點出問題覺得這麼丟臉之外請問一下你有沒有跟我們的教育部的部長討論一下到底為什麼這麼丟臉你有提出過問題然後也提出一些解決方式給他談過了嗎當天鄭部長也在場我們共同都會努力那所以你的說法他都贊成我不知道他內心怎麼想啊但是他\n658418\t678895\t你覺得你在現場這一番話他內心要怎麼想沒有啦我想這樣子啦我想這樣子啦那個隨時再給我一點時間喔這番話出來之後台大校長陳文章其實有提出他的看法對於民進黨的批評指教他說產生諾貝爾獎得主的因素非常複雜除了一要長期耕耘二\n679335\t684419\t我們也要跟這個國際學術組織這個要能夠跟上他們的腳步要能夠常常有一個互動第三個國家支持也很重要所以他說我們其實應該要來支持本土學者能夠在國際型的研討會上得獎啦或者增加這個歐美的一些相關院士的人數啦那提升一些這個台灣國際的影響力啦所以我想你看看喔\n701713\t708398\t站在這個第一線這個校長的立場其實我不能說把球又丟回去給你因為這不是要丟來丟去問你是怎麼共同的解決所以我看起來你看你說你給了很多科研經費不是給了錢就好了如果給了錢我們就可以得到諾貝爾獎得主哪有那麼容易做的事情對不對所以我們給了這個預算補助經費我們有沒有去看看怎麼樣去設定他的KPI那怎麼樣去看他的績效又怎麼樣去輔導\n728274\t739203\t沒有做好的地方我覺得這也是國科會要負的一點責任那最後我想再來提一下也就是說國科會把預算提高經費撒下去以後的努力我們來看國會最新的統計2022年各國執行國家研發經費的佔比我們來看台灣只佔了6.5%那您剛剛說的這個有很多諾貝爾獎得主的日本11.5%美國9.9%南韓9.1%中國大陸\n756676\t762017\t這個7.8%瑞士28.2%荷蘭27.3%所以主委知道嗎荷蘭跟瑞士瑞士有25位的諾貝爾獎得主荷蘭有22位所以我今天要提說我們覺得我們好像就是給了很多的教育經費但是呢我們很多的科研經費也下去了但是呢 主委\n776161\t791250\t我想希望您會後不要說那一天發表完以後就像那天我們質詢完以後因為忘記了這就這麼重要點出問題然後提出建議然後跟這個部長溝通那想出辦法來到底怎麼去解決好不好你下次會不會再忘記應該不會不能應該不會一定要絕對不會好嗎絕對不會謝謝謝謝萬美林委員質詢\n","txt":"主委,還記不記得去年本席有根據人工智慧科技基金會一份2023台灣產業AI化大調查的數據有跟您討論過關於企業還有政府AI化程度,您還記得嗎?\n講完就忘了好來我提醒你一下在當時其實你也有認為台灣距離賴總統口中所說的AI之島還有相當的距離在那現在過了一年你認為這個距離有縮短嗎還沒有一年你還沒有想起來\n好來我就問您啦現在我們看起來過去的您忘記了我希望您能夠去回想一下其實每一次我們的諮詢其實可能主要都要把它記在心裡面因為每一次都是很重要不能諮詢完以後就把它丟掉了好嗎要複習一下那今天在這裡不苛責您\n但是我們看到根據人工智慧科技基金會最新的今年度的我們來看看2024台灣企業AI準備度準備調查報告裡面我國企業在數據力創造力技術力治理力跟運算力五大面向的平均分數僅僅有54.08分那麼其中技術力51.06分這是低於平均的治理力更只有41.61分\n那刚才看到这些数据我们来看更细致的那在台湾的企业当中我们看到7.9%的企业具备资料搜集的能力但是不知道要如何应用38.6%的企业各部门自行的去搜集资料来使用可是缺乏了统一的策略管理\n那麼35.6%AI仍然處於初步的探索階段甚至有將近9%完全沒有使用AI接下來我們看到42.6%的企業只有很少數的員工具備AI的知識但是26.7%的員工是完全不懂AI的這個數據很可怕\n大概七成多那32.7%的企業是完全沒有設置AI專責的部門的那最後再看到高達一半以上52.5%的企業沒有機制可以確保AI模型符合國際規範這些數據那個主委我希望會後你要看不要又忘記了\n那這個都顯示我們AI策略與風險管理上有很多的嚴重的不足喔那麼面對AI技術的一個快速發展喔那政府有沒有啊或者您這裡有沒有措施可以協助企業來提升風險管理跟相關的治理能力有沒有報告委員剛剛我先講剛剛委員提到我先問一下這些數據你都知道嗎\n不是很清楚要了解特別這些數字但是整體的狀況就像委員講的台灣在AI的運用上面其實還有待我想這幾個數字我希望會後主委能夠去了解\n那了解完以後你最好能夠簡單的一個報告來告訴我們這些數據你大概覺得這有什麼樣的警示或提醒那準備怎麼做我覺得這個很重要因為我沒有要求你要給我們這樣的一個報告恐怕你下次又忘記了我覺得這個提醒很重要那再來我們看\n這些數據其實凸顯的是我國企業的AI應用普及率還是低的我相信這一點我們都同意但是這也來自於我想政府相關的AI法規到目前為止是沒有完備的所以這也會影響到我們整個台灣AI的研發跟企業對於AI的應用進程這您同意嗎同意\n好您同意喔那所以沒有完備的AI相關法規跟配套會影響AI的發展我們都同意喔那主委其實您在上任之後也承諾會盡速提出來相關的這個AI草案喔去年的7月我們草案正式的預告10月22號草案也送到行政院在這過程當中我看到您跟同仁也都非常的努力喔不過五個月過去了為什麼還沒有看到送到本院來\n在行政院已經在上上禮拜審完了啦行政院那最後的文字修正應該很快行政院會會報告主委我想\n你這樣置之無物的你很難詳細交代我幫你講好了啦據本席了解行政院在2月26號院長會議當中以及2月27號主委的會議來決議說要把這個AI基本法的主政機關由國科會改為速發部請問這個決策你接受你支持嗎我們在行政院一起討論我當然是支持啦你支持為什麼\n在行政院的會議啊我懂了因為在行政院做成這樣的決議那你也沒有不支持的空間啊好 我要講的是主委 這整部AIF的進本法的架構條文我剛剛說過了 您跟同仁都很努力嘛是由國科會主導制定的法規的公告 蒐集各方的意見也是國科會在做現在突然間換手速發布這要什麼銜接啊那國科會你要扮演什麼角色 主委提一下\n國科會協助制定這部AI基本法後續我們還是會持續來協助事務發布你會協助什麼?你現在孕育要生出來小孩要拱手送人家然後看他長大的過程當中就遠遠的望著是這樣嗎?我們還是會投入AI的研發然後來支持未來事務發布主政的時候他的需求\n主委 我想其實你聽起來就是有很多的無奈啦因為你這個人也藏不太住表情啦有非常多無奈 對嗎是嗎不會啦 不會 沒有我看得出來啦 但也很難說啦因為這是大家努力的成果嘛所以我想啊 這個目前國科會你公布這個AI基本法的草案條文方向是鼓勵AI創新研究的一個方向可是呢 我們知道現在所謂的要改成這個速發部\n是在说不管是这个风险啦 治安啦等等所以去改的我听起来我们是要考虑没有错但是完全把这个国科会的角色通通弱化掉我觉得也不太对因为我们知道这个草案的方向鼓励采取创新研究可是如果我们把它变成了是这个国家安全或者涉及高风险为一个这个理由改成这个速发部\n那将来可能就会变成走这个管制AI的角度来研修这是完全不同的方向这当然我们可以讨论可是过去我们其实在做的过程当中就不是这样所以我想我们现在AI其实发展是非常的快速可能很短的时间之内就会出现很多重大的变化或者一些突破\n那如果說我們沒有去加速趕快去把這個銀頭趕上而且我們又沒有法律的規範那我們的草案到現在呢還是這個delays我覺得我們要什麼超美趕中啦等等啦我覺得這個看起來有一點點好像遙不可及所以我希望啊國科會啊這個尤其是主委啊您帶領大家努力了這麼久是不是可以再努力一下應該跟行政院反映一下趕快把第一個送來本院來審查然後希望還是國科會來做\n還是說現在主委覺得杯酒是冰泉了你完全沒有智慧的空間你不要哽咽了嘛\n我們會確定這個AI基本法還是會保留創新研究的空間不會受到限制那行任這個會期絕對會受到限制我知道啦就是自己孕育的小孩我們還是希望他健康快樂長大但是我可能沒辦法撫養他就這個意思嘛但是主委我這樣講啦我對您跟團隊深具信心啦\n我們希望不管是本席還是我們召委所提的AI基本法草案希望能夠還是以國科會為主管機關我們延續的下去來做其實這是會比較好的所以我還是希望你勇敢把它說出來接下來我想還有一題要跟主委在討論主委你日前出席大專院校校長會議的時候有指出說近年來\n国科会稳定的挹注了科研投资全国科研经费已经达到1595亿2020年起更独立编练基础这个科研的预算五年来从282亿元增加到408亿\n增幅达到45%所以你认为让大学没有后顾之忧但更举出来日本出现了很多诺贝尔奖的得主所以你认为台湾的教育有问题到现在没有培养出诺贝尔奖的得主真是丢脸\n大學丟臉應該是我們整體的這個高等教育體系負責前瞻的這個學術研究讓這個學術研究的成果可以造福人類社會這整個體系所以是高等教育體系丟臉同樣是就是整個高等教育體系丟臉你要試下這個註解你確定嗎\n應該講有權責來改變這個體系的人主委會不會覺得這個話說得過重我不是認為過重我是要提醒大家所以你還是覺得高等教育很丟臉如果按照你這樣講的話高等教育很寬除了大學以外教育部以外我們的學者都是高等教育的一環當天演講我講了兩部分一部分就是我們在學術研究\n負責學術研究就是所謂的研究型大學一定要積極的去思考這個事情另外一部分是我們廣泛的教學型大學包含技術體系教學型大學我有提到我會怎麼協助他就是委員的建議\n主委我有了解您那天所說的我相信你這個是有點恨鐵不成鋼的心情在裡面但您過去其實自己也是清華大學的副校長也是成功大學副校長也擔任過南台科大的校長其實你也在高校裡面所以這個丟臉是不是您也變成負責任嗎我也丟臉了\n對 所以你可能自己也是從教育體系出來的好 我們除了點出問題覺得這麼丟臉之外請問一下你有沒有跟我們的教育部的部長討論一下到底為什麼這麼丟臉你有提出過問題然後也提出一些解決方式給他談過了嗎當天鄭部長也在場我們共同都會努力那所以你的說法他都贊成我不知道他內心怎麼想啊但是他\n你覺得你在現場這一番話他內心要怎麼想沒有啦我想這樣子啦我想這樣子啦那個隨時再給我一點時間喔這番話出來之後台大校長陳文章其實有提出他的看法對於民進黨的批評指教他說產生諾貝爾獎得主的因素非常複雜除了一要長期耕耘二\n我們也要跟這個國際學術組織這個要能夠跟上他們的腳步要能夠常常有一個互動第三個國家支持也很重要所以他說我們其實應該要來支持本土學者能夠在國際型的研討會上得獎啦或者增加這個歐美的一些相關院士的人數啦那提升一些這個台灣國際的影響力啦所以我想你看看喔\n站在這個第一線這個校長的立場其實我不能說把球又丟回去給你因為這不是要丟來丟去問你是怎麼共同的解決所以我看起來你看你說你給了很多科研經費不是給了錢就好了如果給了錢我們就可以得到諾貝爾獎得主哪有那麼容易做的事情對不對所以我們給了這個預算補助經費我們有沒有去看看怎麼樣去設定他的KPI那怎麼樣去看他的績效又怎麼樣去輔導\n沒有做好的地方我覺得這也是國科會要負的一點責任那最後我想再來提一下也就是說國科會把預算提高經費撒下去以後的努力我們來看國會最新的統計2022年各國執行國家研發經費的佔比我們來看台灣只佔了6.5%那您剛剛說的這個有很多諾貝爾獎得主的日本11.5%美國9.9%南韓9.1%中國大陸\n這個7.8%瑞士28.2%荷蘭27.3%所以主委知道嗎荷蘭跟瑞士瑞士有25位的諾貝爾獎得主荷蘭有22位所以我今天要提說我們覺得我們好像就是給了很多的教育經費但是呢我們很多的科研經費也下去了但是呢 主委\n我想希望您會後不要說那一天發表完以後就像那天我們質詢完以後因為忘記了這就這麼重要點出問題然後提出建議然後跟這個部長溝通那想出辦法來到底怎麼去解決好不好你下次會不會再忘記應該不會不能應該不會一定要絕對不會好嗎絕對不會謝謝謝謝萬美林委員質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.750 --> 00:19.422\n主委,還記不記得去年本席有根據人工智慧科技基金會一份2023台灣產業AI化大調查的數據有跟您討論過關於企業還有政府AI化程度,您還記得嗎?\n\n00:21.514 --> 00:33.467\n講完就忘了好來我提醒你一下在當時其實你也有認為台灣距離賴總統口中所說的AI之島還有相當的距離在那現在過了一年你認為這個距離有縮短嗎還沒有一年你還沒有想起來\n\n00:40.776 --> 00:53.147\n好來我就問您啦現在我們看起來過去的您忘記了我希望您能夠去回想一下其實每一次我們的諮詢其實可能主要都要把它記在心裡面因為每一次都是很重要不能諮詢完以後就把它丟掉了好嗎要複習一下那今天在這裡不苛責您\n\n00:57.290 --> 01:24.242\n但是我們看到根據人工智慧科技基金會最新的今年度的我們來看看2024台灣企業AI準備度準備調查報告裡面我國企業在數據力創造力技術力治理力跟運算力五大面向的平均分數僅僅有54.08分那麼其中技術力51.06分這是低於平均的治理力更只有41.61分\n\n01:26.263 --> 01:46.297\n那刚才看到这些数据我们来看更细致的那在台湾的企业当中我们看到7.9%的企业具备资料搜集的能力但是不知道要如何应用38.6%的企业各部门自行的去搜集资料来使用可是缺乏了统一的策略管理\n\n01:47.837 --> 01:56.180\n那麼35.6%AI仍然處於初步的探索階段甚至有將近9%完全沒有使用AI接下來我們看到42.6%的企業只有很少數的員工具備AI的知識但是26.7%的員工是完全不懂AI的這個數據很可怕\n\n02:06.023 --> 02:10.404\n大概七成多那32.7%的企業是完全沒有設置AI專責的部門的那最後再看到高達一半以上52.5%的企業沒有機制可以確保AI模型符合國際規範這些數據那個主委我希望會後你要看不要又忘記了\n\n02:25.849 --> 02:46.108\n那這個都顯示我們AI策略與風險管理上有很多的嚴重的不足喔那麼面對AI技術的一個快速發展喔那政府有沒有啊或者您這裡有沒有措施可以協助企業來提升風險管理跟相關的治理能力有沒有報告委員剛剛我先講剛剛委員提到我先問一下這些數據你都知道嗎\n\n02:47.917 --> 03:02.591\n不是很清楚要了解特別這些數字但是整體的狀況就像委員講的台灣在AI的運用上面其實還有待我想這幾個數字我希望會後主委能夠去了解\n\n03:03.231 --> 03:18.436\n那了解完以後你最好能夠簡單的一個報告來告訴我們這些數據你大概覺得這有什麼樣的警示或提醒那準備怎麼做我覺得這個很重要因為我沒有要求你要給我們這樣的一個報告恐怕你下次又忘記了我覺得這個提醒很重要那再來我們看\n\n03:19.276 --> 03:36.032\n這些數據其實凸顯的是我國企業的AI應用普及率還是低的我相信這一點我們都同意但是這也來自於我想政府相關的AI法規到目前為止是沒有完備的所以這也會影響到我們整個台灣AI的研發跟企業對於AI的應用進程這您同意嗎同意\n\n03:37.153 --> 04:01.690\n好您同意喔那所以沒有完備的AI相關法規跟配套會影響AI的發展我們都同意喔那主委其實您在上任之後也承諾會盡速提出來相關的這個AI草案喔去年的7月我們草案正式的預告10月22號草案也送到行政院在這過程當中我看到您跟同仁也都非常的努力喔不過五個月過去了為什麼還沒有看到送到本院來\n\n04:04.291 --> 04:15.940\n在行政院已經在上上禮拜審完了啦行政院那最後的文字修正應該很快行政院會會報告主委我想\n\n04:19.022 --> 04:36.871\n你這樣置之無物的你很難詳細交代我幫你講好了啦據本席了解行政院在2月26號院長會議當中以及2月27號主委的會議來決議說要把這個AI基本法的主政機關由國科會改為速發部請問這個決策你接受你支持嗎我們在行政院一起討論我當然是支持啦你支持為什麼\n\n04:43.443 --> 05:09.785\n在行政院的會議啊我懂了因為在行政院做成這樣的決議那你也沒有不支持的空間啊好我要講的是主委這整部AIF的進本法的架構條文我剛剛說過了您跟同仁都很努力嘛是由國科會主導制定的法規的公告蒐集各方的意見也是國科會在做現在突然間換手速發布這要什麼銜接啊那國科會你要扮演什麼角色主委提一下\n\n05:11.564 --> 05:34.420\n國科會協助制定這部AI基本法後續我們還是會持續來協助事務發布你會協助什麼?你現在孕育要生出來小孩要拱手送人家然後看他長大的過程當中就遠遠的望著是這樣嗎?我們還是會投入AI的研發然後來支持未來事務發布主政的時候他的需求\n\n05:35.704 --> 06:04.134\n主委我想其實你聽起來就是有很多的無奈啦因為你這個人也藏不太住表情啦有非常多無奈對嗎是嗎不會啦不會沒有我看得出來啦但也很難說啦因為這是大家努力的成果嘛所以我想啊這個目前國科會你公布這個AI基本法的草案條文方向是鼓勵AI創新研究的一個方向可是呢我們知道現在所謂的要改成這個速發部\n\n06:04.614 --> 06:27.755\n是在说不管是这个风险啦治安啦等等所以去改的我听起来我们是要考虑没有错但是完全把这个国科会的角色通通弱化掉我觉得也不太对因为我们知道这个草案的方向鼓励采取创新研究可是如果我们把它变成了是这个国家安全或者涉及高风险为一个这个理由改成这个速发部\n\n06:28.195 --> 06:45.865\n那将来可能就会变成走这个管制AI的角度来研修这是完全不同的方向这当然我们可以讨论可是过去我们其实在做的过程当中就不是这样所以我想我们现在AI其实发展是非常的快速可能很短的时间之内就会出现很多重大的变化或者一些突破\n\n06:46.545 --> 07:11.486\n那如果說我們沒有去加速趕快去把這個銀頭趕上而且我們又沒有法律的規範那我們的草案到現在呢還是這個delays我覺得我們要什麼超美趕中啦等等啦我覺得這個看起來有一點點好像遙不可及所以我希望啊國科會啊這個尤其是主委啊您帶領大家努力了這麼久是不是可以再努力一下應該跟行政院反映一下趕快把第一個送來本院來審查然後希望還是國科會來做\n\n07:15.189 --> 07:19.976\n還是說現在主委覺得杯酒是冰泉了你完全沒有智慧的空間你不要哽咽了嘛\n\n07:28.125 --> 07:48.073\n我們會確定這個AI基本法還是會保留創新研究的空間不會受到限制那行任這個會期絕對會受到限制我知道啦就是自己孕育的小孩我們還是希望他健康快樂長大但是我可能沒辦法撫養他就這個意思嘛但是主委我這樣講啦我對您跟團隊深具信心啦\n\n07:48.433 --> 08:06.731\n我們希望不管是本席還是我們召委所提的AI基本法草案希望能夠還是以國科會為主管機關我們延續的下去來做其實這是會比較好的所以我還是希望你勇敢把它說出來接下來我想還有一題要跟主委在討論主委你日前出席大專院校校長會議的時候有指出說近年來\n\n08:09.594 --> 08:22.286\n国科会稳定的挹注了科研投资全国科研经费已经达到1595亿2020年起更独立编练基础这个科研的预算五年来从282亿元增加到408亿\n\n08:26.670 --> 08:43.441\n增幅达到45%所以你认为让大学没有后顾之忧但更举出来日本出现了很多诺贝尔奖的得主所以你认为台湾的教育有问题到现在没有培养出诺贝尔奖的得主真是丢脸\n\n08:56.510 --> 09:21.645\n大學丟臉應該是我們整體的這個高等教育體系負責前瞻的這個學術研究讓這個學術研究的成果可以造福人類社會這整個體系所以是高等教育體系丟臉同樣是就是整個高等教育體系丟臉你要試下這個註解你確定嗎\n\n09:28.022 --> 09:50.780\n應該講有權責來改變這個體系的人主委會不會覺得這個話說得過重我不是認為過重我是要提醒大家所以你還是覺得高等教育很丟臉如果按照你這樣講的話高等教育很寬除了大學以外教育部以外我們的學者都是高等教育的一環當天演講我講了兩部分一部分就是我們在學術研究\n\n09:52.068 --> 10:07.126\n負責學術研究就是所謂的研究型大學一定要積極的去思考這個事情另外一部分是我們廣泛的教學型大學包含技術體系教學型大學我有提到我會怎麼協助他就是委員的建議\n\n10:09.348 --> 10:28.148\n主委我有了解您那天所說的我相信你這個是有點恨鐵不成鋼的心情在裡面但您過去其實自己也是清華大學的副校長也是成功大學副校長也擔任過南台科大的校長其實你也在高校裡面所以這個丟臉是不是您也變成負責任嗎我也丟臉了\n\n10:31.171 --> 10:50.502\n對所以你可能自己也是從教育體系出來的好我們除了點出問題覺得這麼丟臉之外請問一下你有沒有跟我們的教育部的部長討論一下到底為什麼這麼丟臉你有提出過問題然後也提出一些解決方式給他談過了嗎當天鄭部長也在場我們共同都會努力那所以你的說法他都贊成我不知道他內心怎麼想啊但是他\n\n10:58.418 --> 11:18.895\n你覺得你在現場這一番話他內心要怎麼想沒有啦我想這樣子啦我想這樣子啦那個隨時再給我一點時間喔這番話出來之後台大校長陳文章其實有提出他的看法對於民進黨的批評指教他說產生諾貝爾獎得主的因素非常複雜除了一要長期耕耘二\n\n11:19.335 --> 11:24.419\n我們也要跟這個國際學術組織這個要能夠跟上他們的腳步要能夠常常有一個互動第三個國家支持也很重要所以他說我們其實應該要來支持本土學者能夠在國際型的研討會上得獎啦或者增加這個歐美的一些相關院士的人數啦那提升一些這個台灣國際的影響力啦所以我想你看看喔\n\n11:41.713 --> 11:48.398\n站在這個第一線這個校長的立場其實我不能說把球又丟回去給你因為這不是要丟來丟去問你是怎麼共同的解決所以我看起來你看你說你給了很多科研經費不是給了錢就好了如果給了錢我們就可以得到諾貝爾獎得主哪有那麼容易做的事情對不對所以我們給了這個預算補助經費我們有沒有去看看怎麼樣去設定他的KPI那怎麼樣去看他的績效又怎麼樣去輔導\n\n12:08.274 --> 12:19.203\n沒有做好的地方我覺得這也是國科會要負的一點責任那最後我想再來提一下也就是說國科會把預算提高經費撒下去以後的努力我們來看國會最新的統計2022年各國執行國家研發經費的佔比我們來看台灣只佔了6.5%那您剛剛說的這個有很多諾貝爾獎得主的日本11.5%美國9.9%南韓9.1%中國大陸\n\n12:36.676 --> 12:42.017\n這個7.8%瑞士28.2%荷蘭27.3%所以主委知道嗎荷蘭跟瑞士瑞士有25位的諾貝爾獎得主荷蘭有22位所以我今天要提說我們覺得我們好像就是給了很多的教育經費但是呢我們很多的科研經費也下去了但是呢主委\n\n12:56.161 --> 13:11.250\n我想希望您會後不要說那一天發表完以後就像那天我們質詢完以後因為忘記了這就這麼重要點出問題然後提出建議然後跟這個部長溝通那想出辦法來到底怎麼去解決好不好你下次會不會再忘記應該不會不能應該不會一定要絕對不會好嗎絕對不會謝謝謝謝萬美林委員質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.75,"end":19.422,"text":"主委,還記不記得去年本席有根據人工智慧科技基金會一份2023台灣產業AI化大調查的數據有跟您討論過關於企業還有政府AI化程度,您還記得嗎?"},{"start":21.514,"end":33.467,"text":"講完就忘了好來我提醒你一下在當時其實你也有認為台灣距離賴總統口中所說的AI之島還有相當的距離在那現在過了一年你認為這個距離有縮短嗎還沒有一年你還沒有想起來"},{"start":40.776,"end":53.147,"text":"好來我就問您啦現在我們看起來過去的您忘記了我希望您能夠去回想一下其實每一次我們的諮詢其實可能主要都要把它記在心裡面因為每一次都是很重要不能諮詢完以後就把它丟掉了好嗎要複習一下那今天在這裡不苛責您"},{"start":57.29,"end":84.242,"text":"但是我們看到根據人工智慧科技基金會最新的今年度的我們來看看2024台灣企業AI準備度準備調查報告裡面我國企業在數據力創造力技術力治理力跟運算力五大面向的平均分數僅僅有54.08分那麼其中技術力51.06分這是低於平均的治理力更只有41.61分"},{"start":86.263,"end":106.297,"text":"那刚才看到这些数据我们来看更细致的那在台湾的企业当中我们看到7.9%的企业具备资料搜集的能力但是不知道要如何应用38.6%的企业各部门自行的去搜集资料来使用可是缺乏了统一的策略管理"},{"start":107.837,"end":116.18,"text":"那麼35.6%AI仍然處於初步的探索階段甚至有將近9%完全沒有使用AI接下來我們看到42.6%的企業只有很少數的員工具備AI的知識但是26.7%的員工是完全不懂AI的這個數據很可怕"},{"start":126.023,"end":130.404,"text":"大概七成多那32.7%的企業是完全沒有設置AI專責的部門的那最後再看到高達一半以上52.5%的企業沒有機制可以確保AI模型符合國際規範這些數據那個主委我希望會後你要看不要又忘記了"},{"start":145.849,"end":166.108,"text":"那這個都顯示我們AI策略與風險管理上有很多的嚴重的不足喔那麼面對AI技術的一個快速發展喔那政府有沒有啊或者您這裡有沒有措施可以協助企業來提升風險管理跟相關的治理能力有沒有報告委員剛剛我先講剛剛委員提到我先問一下這些數據你都知道嗎"},{"start":167.917,"end":182.591,"text":"不是很清楚要了解特別這些數字但是整體的狀況就像委員講的台灣在AI的運用上面其實還有待我想這幾個數字我希望會後主委能夠去了解"},{"start":183.231,"end":198.436,"text":"那了解完以後你最好能夠簡單的一個報告來告訴我們這些數據你大概覺得這有什麼樣的警示或提醒那準備怎麼做我覺得這個很重要因為我沒有要求你要給我們這樣的一個報告恐怕你下次又忘記了我覺得這個提醒很重要那再來我們看"},{"start":199.276,"end":216.032,"text":"這些數據其實凸顯的是我國企業的AI應用普及率還是低的我相信這一點我們都同意但是這也來自於我想政府相關的AI法規到目前為止是沒有完備的所以這也會影響到我們整個台灣AI的研發跟企業對於AI的應用進程這您同意嗎同意"},{"start":217.153,"end":241.69,"text":"好您同意喔那所以沒有完備的AI相關法規跟配套會影響AI的發展我們都同意喔那主委其實您在上任之後也承諾會盡速提出來相關的這個AI草案喔去年的7月我們草案正式的預告10月22號草案也送到行政院在這過程當中我看到您跟同仁也都非常的努力喔不過五個月過去了為什麼還沒有看到送到本院來"},{"start":244.291,"end":255.94,"text":"在行政院已經在上上禮拜審完了啦行政院那最後的文字修正應該很快行政院會會報告主委我想"},{"start":259.022,"end":276.871,"text":"你這樣置之無物的你很難詳細交代我幫你講好了啦據本席了解行政院在2月26號院長會議當中以及2月27號主委的會議來決議說要把這個AI基本法的主政機關由國科會改為速發部請問這個決策你接受你支持嗎我們在行政院一起討論我當然是支持啦你支持為什麼"},{"start":283.443,"end":309.785,"text":"在行政院的會議啊我懂了因為在行政院做成這樣的決議那你也沒有不支持的空間啊好 我要講的是主委 這整部AIF的進本法的架構條文我剛剛說過了 您跟同仁都很努力嘛是由國科會主導制定的法規的公告 蒐集各方的意見也是國科會在做現在突然間換手速發布這要什麼銜接啊那國科會你要扮演什麼角色 主委提一下"},{"start":311.564,"end":334.42,"text":"國科會協助制定這部AI基本法後續我們還是會持續來協助事務發布你會協助什麼?你現在孕育要生出來小孩要拱手送人家然後看他長大的過程當中就遠遠的望著是這樣嗎?我們還是會投入AI的研發然後來支持未來事務發布主政的時候他的需求"},{"start":335.704,"end":364.134,"text":"主委 我想其實你聽起來就是有很多的無奈啦因為你這個人也藏不太住表情啦有非常多無奈 對嗎是嗎不會啦 不會 沒有我看得出來啦 但也很難說啦因為這是大家努力的成果嘛所以我想啊 這個目前國科會你公布這個AI基本法的草案條文方向是鼓勵AI創新研究的一個方向可是呢 我們知道現在所謂的要改成這個速發部"},{"start":364.614,"end":387.755,"text":"是在说不管是这个风险啦 治安啦等等所以去改的我听起来我们是要考虑没有错但是完全把这个国科会的角色通通弱化掉我觉得也不太对因为我们知道这个草案的方向鼓励采取创新研究可是如果我们把它变成了是这个国家安全或者涉及高风险为一个这个理由改成这个速发部"},{"start":388.195,"end":405.865,"text":"那将来可能就会变成走这个管制AI的角度来研修这是完全不同的方向这当然我们可以讨论可是过去我们其实在做的过程当中就不是这样所以我想我们现在AI其实发展是非常的快速可能很短的时间之内就会出现很多重大的变化或者一些突破"},{"start":406.545,"end":431.486,"text":"那如果說我們沒有去加速趕快去把這個銀頭趕上而且我們又沒有法律的規範那我們的草案到現在呢還是這個delays我覺得我們要什麼超美趕中啦等等啦我覺得這個看起來有一點點好像遙不可及所以我希望啊國科會啊這個尤其是主委啊您帶領大家努力了這麼久是不是可以再努力一下應該跟行政院反映一下趕快把第一個送來本院來審查然後希望還是國科會來做"},{"start":435.189,"end":439.976,"text":"還是說現在主委覺得杯酒是冰泉了你完全沒有智慧的空間你不要哽咽了嘛"},{"start":448.125,"end":468.073,"text":"我們會確定這個AI基本法還是會保留創新研究的空間不會受到限制那行任這個會期絕對會受到限制我知道啦就是自己孕育的小孩我們還是希望他健康快樂長大但是我可能沒辦法撫養他就這個意思嘛但是主委我這樣講啦我對您跟團隊深具信心啦"},{"start":468.433,"end":486.731,"text":"我們希望不管是本席還是我們召委所提的AI基本法草案希望能夠還是以國科會為主管機關我們延續的下去來做其實這是會比較好的所以我還是希望你勇敢把它說出來接下來我想還有一題要跟主委在討論主委你日前出席大專院校校長會議的時候有指出說近年來"},{"start":489.594,"end":502.286,"text":"国科会稳定的挹注了科研投资全国科研经费已经达到1595亿2020年起更独立编练基础这个科研的预算五年来从282亿元增加到408亿"},{"start":506.67,"end":523.441,"text":"增幅达到45%所以你认为让大学没有后顾之忧但更举出来日本出现了很多诺贝尔奖的得主所以你认为台湾的教育有问题到现在没有培养出诺贝尔奖的得主真是丢脸"},{"start":536.51,"end":561.645,"text":"大學丟臉應該是我們整體的這個高等教育體系負責前瞻的這個學術研究讓這個學術研究的成果可以造福人類社會這整個體系所以是高等教育體系丟臉同樣是就是整個高等教育體系丟臉你要試下這個註解你確定嗎"},{"start":568.022,"end":590.78,"text":"應該講有權責來改變這個體系的人主委會不會覺得這個話說得過重我不是認為過重我是要提醒大家所以你還是覺得高等教育很丟臉如果按照你這樣講的話高等教育很寬除了大學以外教育部以外我們的學者都是高等教育的一環當天演講我講了兩部分一部分就是我們在學術研究"},{"start":592.068,"end":607.126,"text":"負責學術研究就是所謂的研究型大學一定要積極的去思考這個事情另外一部分是我們廣泛的教學型大學包含技術體系教學型大學我有提到我會怎麼協助他就是委員的建議"},{"start":609.348,"end":628.148,"text":"主委我有了解您那天所說的我相信你這個是有點恨鐵不成鋼的心情在裡面但您過去其實自己也是清華大學的副校長也是成功大學副校長也擔任過南台科大的校長其實你也在高校裡面所以這個丟臉是不是您也變成負責任嗎我也丟臉了"},{"start":631.171,"end":650.502,"text":"對 所以你可能自己也是從教育體系出來的好 我們除了點出問題覺得這麼丟臉之外請問一下你有沒有跟我們的教育部的部長討論一下到底為什麼這麼丟臉你有提出過問題然後也提出一些解決方式給他談過了嗎當天鄭部長也在場我們共同都會努力那所以你的說法他都贊成我不知道他內心怎麼想啊但是他"},{"start":658.418,"end":678.895,"text":"你覺得你在現場這一番話他內心要怎麼想沒有啦我想這樣子啦我想這樣子啦那個隨時再給我一點時間喔這番話出來之後台大校長陳文章其實有提出他的看法對於民進黨的批評指教他說產生諾貝爾獎得主的因素非常複雜除了一要長期耕耘二"},{"start":679.335,"end":684.419,"text":"我們也要跟這個國際學術組織這個要能夠跟上他們的腳步要能夠常常有一個互動第三個國家支持也很重要所以他說我們其實應該要來支持本土學者能夠在國際型的研討會上得獎啦或者增加這個歐美的一些相關院士的人數啦那提升一些這個台灣國際的影響力啦所以我想你看看喔"},{"start":701.713,"end":708.398,"text":"站在這個第一線這個校長的立場其實我不能說把球又丟回去給你因為這不是要丟來丟去問你是怎麼共同的解決所以我看起來你看你說你給了很多科研經費不是給了錢就好了如果給了錢我們就可以得到諾貝爾獎得主哪有那麼容易做的事情對不對所以我們給了這個預算補助經費我們有沒有去看看怎麼樣去設定他的KPI那怎麼樣去看他的績效又怎麼樣去輔導"},{"start":728.274,"end":739.203,"text":"沒有做好的地方我覺得這也是國科會要負的一點責任那最後我想再來提一下也就是說國科會把預算提高經費撒下去以後的努力我們來看國會最新的統計2022年各國執行國家研發經費的佔比我們來看台灣只佔了6.5%那您剛剛說的這個有很多諾貝爾獎得主的日本11.5%美國9.9%南韓9.1%中國大陸"},{"start":756.676,"end":762.017,"text":"這個7.8%瑞士28.2%荷蘭27.3%所以主委知道嗎荷蘭跟瑞士瑞士有25位的諾貝爾獎得主荷蘭有22位所以我今天要提說我們覺得我們好像就是給了很多的教育經費但是呢我們很多的科研經費也下去了但是呢 主委"},{"start":776.161,"end":791.25,"text":"我想希望您會後不要說那一天發表完以後就像那天我們質詢完以後因為忘記了這就這麼重要點出問題然後提出建議然後跟這個部長溝通那想出辦法來到底怎麼去解決好不好你下次會不會再忘記應該不會不能應該不會一定要絕對不會好嗎絕對不會謝謝謝謝萬美林委員質詢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":672,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（12時3分）謝謝召委，我們有請主委。"],["主席：請主委備質詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：萬委員好。"],["萬委員美玲：主委好。主委，還記不記得去年本席有根據人工智慧科技基金會一份2023台灣產業AI化大調查的數據，有跟您討論過關於企業，還有政府AI化的程度，你還記得嗎？講完就忘了！來，我提醒您一下，當時其實你也認為臺灣距離賴總統口中所說的AI之島還有相當的距離在，現在過了一年，你認為這個距離有縮短嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：還沒有一年，但是……"],["萬委員美玲：你還沒有想起來？我就問您啦，現在我們看起來，過去的你忘記了，我希望你能夠去回想一下，其實每一次我們的質詢，主委可能都要把它記在心裡面，因為每一次都很重要，不能質詢完以後就把它丟掉了，好嗎？要複習一下。今天在這裡我不苛責您，但是我們看到根據人工智慧科技基金會最新的、今年度的調查報告顯示，在2024台灣企業AI準備度的指數，我國企業在數據力、創造力、技術力、治理力跟運算力五大面向的平均分數僅僅有54.08分，其中技術力51.06分，這是低於平均的；治理力更只有41.61分。","我們來看更細緻的數據，在臺灣的企業當中，我們看到有7.9%的企業具備資料蒐集的能力，但是不知道要如何應用，38.6%的企業是各部門自行去蒐集資料來使用，可是缺乏統一的策略管理，有35.6%的公司是AI仍然處於初步的探索階段，甚至有將近9%完全沒有使用AI。接下來，我們看到42.6%的企業只有很少數的員工具備AI的知識，但是26.7%的員工是完全不懂AI的，這個數據很可怕，大概是七成多。有32.7%的企業完全沒有設置AI專責的部門。最後，我們看到高達一半以上，52.5%的企業沒有機制可以確保AI模型符合國際規範。這些數據，主委，我希望會後您要看，不要又忘記了。這個都顯示我們AI策略與風險管理上有很多嚴重的不足，面對AI技術的快速發展，政府有沒有，或者您這裡有沒有措施可以協助企業提升風險管理跟相關的治理能力？有沒有？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我先講剛剛委員提到的……"],["萬委員美玲：我先問一下，這些數據你都知道嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是很清楚，但是……"],["萬委員美玲：不是很清楚？要了解喔！"],["吳主任委員誠文：特別針對這些數字啦，但是整體的狀況，就像委員講的，臺灣在AI的應用上面，其實還有待……"],["萬委員美玲：好，我想這幾個數字，我希望會後主委能夠去了解，在了解完以後，你最好能夠提一個簡單的報告來告訴我們，這些數據你大概覺得這有什麼樣的警示或提醒，以及準備怎麼做。我覺得這個很重要，因為我如果沒有要求你要給我們這樣一個報告，恐怕你下次又忘記了，我覺得這個提醒很重要。","再來，這些數據其實凸顯的是我國企業的AI應用普及率還是低的，我相信這一點我們都同意，但是這也來自於政府相關的AI法規到目前為止是沒有完備的，所以這也會影響到整個臺灣AI的研發跟企業對於AI的應用進程，這您同意嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：同意。"],["萬委員美玲：好，您同意。所以沒有完備的AI相關法規跟配套，會影響AI的發展，我們都同意。主委，其實您在上任之後也承諾會儘速提出相關的AI草案，去年的7月，草案正式的預告，10月22號草案也送到行政院，在這過程當中，我看到您跟同仁也都非常的努力，不過5個月過去了，為什麼還沒有看到草案送到本院來？"],["吳主任委員誠文：行政院已經在上上個禮拜審完了，現在在做最後的文字修正，應該很快會在行政院院會上報告，之後就會送到大院來。"],["萬委員美玲：主委，我想你這樣支支吾吾的，你很難詳細交代，我幫你講好了啦！據本席了解，行政院在2月26號院長會議以及2月27號主委的會議已經決議要把這個AI基本法的主政機關，由國科會改為數發部，請問這個決策你接受、你支持嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們在行政院會一起討論，我當然是支持啊。"],["萬委員美玲：你支持？為什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這是在行政院的會議啊。"],["萬委員美玲：我懂了，因為在行政院做成這樣的決議，那你也沒有不支持的空間啦。好，我要講的是，主委，這整部AI基本法的架構條文，我剛剛說過了，您跟同仁都很努力，是由國科會主導、制定的，法規的公告、蒐集各方的意見，也是國科會在做，現在突然間要換手數發部，這要怎麼銜接啊？國科會又要扮演什麼角色？主委，提一下。"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會協助制定這一部AI基本法，後續我們還是會持續來協助數發部……"],["萬委員美玲：你會協助什麼？自己現在孕育要生出來的小孩要拱手送人家，然後在他長大的過程當中，就遠遠的望著，是這樣嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們還是會投入AI的研發，然後來支持未來數發部主政的時候它的需求。"],["萬委員美玲：主委，其實聽起來你就是有很多的無奈，因為你這個人也藏不太住表情啦。"],["吳主任委員誠文：有奈、有奈。"],["萬委員美玲：你有非常多無奈，對嗎？是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不會啦、不會啦，沒有。"],["萬委員美玲：我看得出來，但也很難說啦，因為這是大家努力的成果嘛！目前國科會所公布的AI基本法草案條文，在方向上是鼓勵AI創新研究的一個方向，可是呢，我們知道現在要改成數發部來主政，是出於風險、資安等等考量所以去改的。我們是要考慮沒有錯，但是完全把國科會的角色通通弱化掉，我覺得也不太對，因為我們知道這個草案的方向，鼓勵採取創新研究，可是如果我們是將國家安全或者涉及高風險作為一個理由而改成數發部，將來可能就會變成走管制AI的這個角度來研修，這是完全不同的方向。這個當然我們可以討論，可是過去我們在做的過程當中其實就不是這樣嘛。我想現在AI的發展非常快速，可能在很短的時間內就會出現很多重大的變化或者一些突破，如果我們沒有趕快加速去迎頭趕上，而且我們又沒有法律的規範，我們的草案到現在還是在delay，我們要什麼超美趕中等等啦，我覺得這個看起來有一點點好像遙不可及喔！所以我希望國科會，尤其是主委，您帶領大家努力了這麼久，是不是可以再努力一下，應該跟行政院反映一下，第一個，趕快將院版送來本院審查，然後希望還是由國科會來做喔！還是現在主委覺得杯酒釋兵權了，你完全沒有置喙的空間？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有，我們會，對不起，我們會確定……"],["萬委員美玲：你不要哽咽了嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會確定這個AI基本法還是會保留創新研究的空間不會受到限制，那行政院這個會期絕對會送。"],["萬委員美玲：我知道啦，就是自己孕育的小孩，我們還是希望他健康快樂地長大，但我可能沒辦法撫養他，就這個意思嘛。但是主委，我對您跟團隊深具信心，不管是本席還是我們召委所提的AI基本法草案，我們希望還是能夠以國科會為主管機關，延續地做下去其實是會比較好的，所以我還是希望你勇敢地把它說出來。","接下來我還有一題要再跟主委討論。主委，你日前出席大專院校校長會議的時候有指出，近年來國科會穩定的挹注了科研投資，全國科研經費已經達到1,595億，2020年起更獨立編列基礎科研的預算，五年來從282億元增加到408億，增幅達到45%，所以你認為讓大學沒有後顧之憂。你更舉出，日本出現了很多諾貝爾獎得主，所以你認為臺灣的教育有問題，到現在沒有培養出諾貝爾獎得主真是丟臉。我想這個話其實說得蠻重的，我回去以後其實這段時間研究了很久，今天我想直接問主委，到底這個丟臉是政府丟臉，還是國科會丟臉，還是我們高等教育丟臉，還是大學丟臉？"],["吳主任委員誠文：應該是我們整體高等教育體系負責前瞻的學術研究，讓這個學術研究的成果可以造福人類社會，這整個體系需要檢討……"],["萬委員美玲：所以是高等教育體系丟臉？"],["吳主任委員誠文：同樣，是，但是……"],["萬委員美玲：就是整個高等教育體系丟臉，你是要下這個註解，你確定嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：應該講有權責來改變這個體系的人要負責任。"],["萬委員美玲：主委會不會覺得這個話說得過重？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我不認為過重，我是要提醒大家……"],["萬委員美玲：所以你還是覺得高等教育很丟臉，如果按照你這樣講的話，高等教育很寬喔，除了大學以外，教育部以外，我們的學者都是高等教育的一環喔。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我當天的演講講了兩部分，一部分就是我們的學術研究，負責學術研究的就是所謂研究型大學，一定要積極的去思考這個事情；另外一部分是我們廣泛的教學型大學，包含技職體系。而教學型大學，我也有提到國科會……"],["萬委員美玲：好，主委我理解，其實……"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會怎麼協助他，就是委員的建議，我增加……"],["萬委員美玲：來，主委，我有了解你那天所說的，我相信你是有點恨鐵不成鋼的心情在裡面，但您自己過去其實也是清華大學的副校長，也是成功大學的副校長，也擔任過南臺科大的校長，其實你也在高校裡面，所以這個丟臉是不是您也變成要負一部分的責任，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我也丟臉啊，我也丟臉啊！"],["萬委員美玲：對，所以你可能是從自己也是教育體系出來的立場發言。好，我們除了點出問題，覺得這麼丟臉之外，請問一下，您有沒有跟我們教育部的部長討論一下，到底為什麼這麼丟臉？你有提出過問題，然後也提出一些解決的方式給他，談過了嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：當天鄭部長也在場，我們都會共同努力。"],["萬委員美玲：所以您的說法他都贊成？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我不知道他內心怎麼想，但是我們在……"],["萬委員美玲：你覺得你在現場說出這一番話，他內心要怎麼想？沒有啦！我想這樣子啦……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我相信他會贊成。"],["萬委員美玲：主席，再給我一點時間。這一番話出來之後，臺大校長陳文章其實有提出看法，對於您的批評指教，他說產生諾貝爾獎得主的因素非常複雜，除了一、要長期耕耘；二、我們也要能夠跟上國際學術組織的腳步，要能夠常常互動；第三個，國家支持也很重要，所以他說我們應該要支持本土學者能夠在國際型的研討會上得獎，或者增加歐美一些相關院士的人數，提升一些臺灣在國際的影響力。你看看，這是站在第一線的校長的立場，我不能說把球又丟回去給你，因為這不是要丟來丟去的問題，是要怎麼共同來解決。所以我看起來，你說你給了很多科研經費，但不是給了錢就好了，如果給了錢，我們就可以得到諾貝爾獎得主，哪有那麼容易做的事情，對不對？所以我們給了預算、補助經費，我們有沒有去思考怎麼樣去設定它的KPI，怎麼樣去看它的績效，要怎麼樣去輔導沒有做好的地方，我覺得這也是國科會要負的一點責任。","最後，我想再來提一下國科會把預算提高，經費撒下去以後的努力，我們來看國科會最新的統計，2022年各國執行國家研發經費的占比，臺灣只占了6.5%；您剛剛說的有很多諾貝爾獎得主的日本11.5%；美國9.9%；南韓9.1%；中國大陸7.8%；瑞士28.2%；荷蘭27.3%，主委知道嗎？荷蘭跟瑞士，瑞士有25位諾貝爾獎得主，荷蘭有22位。所以我今天要提說，我們覺得我們好像給了很多教育經費，很多科研經費也下去了，但是主委，我希望您會後，不要說那一天發表完以後，就像那天我們質詢完你就忘記了，這個這麼重要，你點出問題，然後要提出建議跟部長溝通，要想出辦法來看到底怎麼去解決，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：你下次會不會再忘記？"],["吳主任委員誠文：應該不會。"],["萬委員美玲：不能說「應該不會」喔，一定要說「絕對不會」，好嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，絕對不會。"],["萬委員美玲：好。謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員的質詢。主委請回座，謝謝。","接下來我們繼續進行質詢，請何欣純委員質詢，何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","我們接著繼續質詢，請翁曉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","林沛祥","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","葉元之","郭昱晴","范雲","陳培瑜","萬美玲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","林倩綺"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00002"}}}