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\"start\": 557.94, \"end\": 558.12, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 558.12, \"end\": 558.24, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 558.24, \"end\": 558.64, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 558.64, \"end\": 559.36, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 559.36, \"end\": 559.6, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 559.6, \"end\": 560.501, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 560.501, \"end\": 560.641, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 560.641, \"end\": 560.821, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 560.821, \"end\": 561.321, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"容\", \"start\": 561.321, \"end\": 561.541, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 561.541, \"end\": 561.682, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 561.682, \"end\": 562.022, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 562.022, \"end\": 562.142, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 562.142, \"end\": 562.242, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 562.242, \"end\": 562.262, \"score\": 0.073}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,301 --> 00:00:07,434\n謝謝召委有請主委請主委被質詢謝謝\n\n2\n00:00:12,097 --> 00:00:21,540\n黃委員好主委好我想今天大概已經先前都有些委員有問您有關於台積電赴美社廠的問題那麼3月3號美國總統宣布台積電會在美國加碼投資1000億那麼這個新聞當然也引起了國內多人的許多民眾的關注尤其台積電是我們的護國神山又享有最關鍵最核心的一些晶圓的技術\n\n3\n00:00:40,606 --> 00:00:53,115\n所以呢對於就是這一次台積電到美國去設廠不知道主委知不知道說他們預計會在那裡興建多少奈米的晶圓廠或是說他們可能會在那裡設置什麼樣的廠\n\n4\n00:00:54,124 --> 00:01:15,173\n目前台積電在亞利桑那州設的第一個廠已經在運作了它是4奈米的製程接下來還有兩個廠陸續會蓋好開始運作可能就是會進到3奈米甚至到2奈米但是這個時程其實還要幾年以後也就是說\n\n5\n00:01:19,355 --> 00:01:35,344\n台積電的這個最先進的製程一定是在台灣研發到量產量產以後他才會把成熟的這個量產的技術會擴散到我們所投資的這個海外的這個基地好那所以呢按照主委的意思就是說其實現在台積電到美國這個副廠然後\n\n6\n00:01:40,186 --> 00:01:52,859\n接下來計劃可能會設置2奈米或是4奈米的晶圓廠基本上不是屬於我們國家國安法裡面所要管制的關鍵技術是嗎\n\n7\n00:01:54,359 --> 00:02:16,184\n美國本來就科技比我們進步我們不可能管制我們的科技到美國科技項目我們有所謂管制國家請問一下我們在國安法的第三條裡面有講到什麼叫國家核心的關鍵技術請問主委那您認為台積電的技術不算是核心的關鍵\n\n8\n00:02:17,804 --> 00:02:42,652\n核心關鍵技術是嗎?核心關鍵技術大概很難用製程的節點來概括譬如說兩奈米的技術,現在包含三星電子也說它有兩奈米技術包含美國的Intel也說它有,甚至它是1.8A,還講18A這個技術能不能進到量產\n\n9\n00:02:43,992 --> 00:02:50,977\n那有很多的製造的know-how存在這種製造的know-how台積電是不會洩漏給別人的所以簡單來說您認為說只有在研發階段在量產之前的這個才是屬於我們國家要管制的核心技術然後量產之後就不算\n\n10\n00:03:05,027 --> 00:03:21,125\n包括讓你去設廠然後接下來可能會有這個很多的相關的設備廠商一起去那這些因為他們都屬於量產了而且可能是都標準化設備化了所以這些不是屬於我們國家的關鍵技術大家都可以到那去設廠\n\n11\n00:03:22,671 --> 00:03:41,470\n報告委員我再解釋一下我說譬如說量奈米的技術我們到美國去投資也是要經過我們經濟部投審會它是在我們自己量產技術成熟的已經在台灣製造以後我們才會討論這個事至於說它能不能到其他國家這個又是另外一回事因為我們有所謂的這個\n\n12\n00:03:43,786 --> 00:03:58,596\n所謂在這個國際上被制裁的一些國家是管制的是更更嚴格還有更傳統製程的這個技術也都成熟的技術也都不能過去的所以這是兩回事那這一部分是經濟部在負責好您剛講的經濟部頭審會所以現在經濟部頭審會已經有接受到台積電有來申請投資的相關的計劃嗎\n\n13\n00:04:05,469 --> 00:04:08,936\n他們應該在準備當中可能還沒有見到如果說經濟部投審會在審查相關案子的時候會諮詢國科會的意見嗎\n\n14\n00:04:17,121 --> 00:04:29,545\n國科會應該有代表會有代表會有代表我們知道其實國科會本身依照國安法授權法的規定要設置國家核心關鍵技術審議會這個審議會其實在去年年底的時候\n\n15\n00:04:36,334 --> 00:05:02,047\n有重新修正過最新的這個國家核心關鍵技術清單那現在我只是在PPT上面爐裂的這些技術項目當中有沒有涵蓋到這次台積電可能會到美國去設廠可能會帶去的技術美國並不是我們這些技術管制的國家是嗎來我們回到前面第三條來請念一下\n\n16\n00:05:07,168 --> 00:05:15,940\n國家核心關係技術是指如流入外國大陸地區香港澳門或境外敵對勢力將重大損害國家安全產業競爭力請問美國是不是外國\n\n17\n00:05:19,497 --> 00:05:23,758\n我們剛講的那個是投資設廠我剛講關鍵技術我們是不會外流的關鍵技術的部分我們所管制的一些關鍵技術你怎麼這麼確認就不會外流廠都到了美國了\n\n18\n00:05:41,617 --> 00:05:54,514\n如果他有外流就違法嘛違法就需要處罰所以現在台積電可能會帶過去的技術不在你們所管制的技術項目裡面\n\n19\n00:05:57,982 --> 00:06:19,333\n是嗎?不法外流要被加重刑罰處罰不法外流的話,如果是那個技術當然不法外流才會處罰我,現在是問您很簡單的問題就是台積電現在要過去的這個設廠會帶過去的這些技術算不算是列在你們這個核心關鍵技術項目清單裡嗎?\n\n20\n00:06:23,527 --> 00:06:30,410\n當然我這方面是外行像什麼晶片安全技術量子位元製程技術這不是都是你們自己國科會自己寫的嗎\n\n21\n00:06:33,494 --> 00:06:40,657\n我們這個就是要在投審會裡面審查那看看有沒有這是兩回事我要釐清在法規上面來講這個國家核心關鍵技術項目清單這是基於國安法裡面然後授權國科會要設置技術審議委員會要掳列這些清單所以如果違反這個清單的話它是會觸犯國安法的而且罰則很重\n\n22\n00:07:00,276 --> 00:07:28,483\n是,但是國科會只是負責我們各部會提報的這些項目我們在這個審議會裡面審查所以你們確認了嗎?你們已經公告了這份清單嘛我們確認這些清單但是這些清單在執行的時候還是要回到主管的部會來認定它但是從國科會的角度認為要在那裡要設置2奈米、3奈米或4奈米的這個廠這些技術難道不算是台灣的我跟委員報告\n\n23\n00:07:30,604 --> 00:07:41,149\n半導體的技術美國比台灣還要先進那既然如此他幹嘛硬是要逼著台積電去設廠那我剛剛提的就是說先進製程的製造台灣比他們強其實在一般的學校裡面做研究教授果然理論很強\n\n24\n00:07:53,243 --> 00:08:05,320\n但是Technician很重要啊所以Technician他的know-how很重要啊這個應該也是屬於我們的關鍵技術但是這一部分連政府都不清楚的我跟委員報告\n\n25\n00:08:05,822 --> 00:08:23,468\n是你說我們政府不清楚還是政府無權去介入他們的機密啊我們無權啊除非他有違法你才有執法的能力去進去啊他沒有違法你沒有辦法其實主委我很贊同您的看法但是我們現在國安法就定得這麼的清楚\n\n26\n00:08:24,682 --> 00:08:41,348\n對不對他因為可能會違反一些關鍵技術所以呢這個之後我是覺得您現在說法有點像是限台積電於不義或是限經濟部其他的主管機關那未來到底要不要去了解他的關鍵技術還是說你們只是列了一個大框架然後之後呢想要處罰任何一個廠商就依照說我就是屬於違反這個項目的清單裡面我就可以罰那我不想罰的時候就不罰譬如說台積電\n\n27\n00:08:51,952 --> 00:08:54,255\n他即便是帶走了這麼重要的觀念技術我們都還是可以認為我們還有營業秘密法就是我們對保護廠商啊\n\n28\n00:08:59,450 --> 00:09:22,262\n國安法跟營業秘密法哪個是特別法這個我不清楚所以這個部分因為我今天時間是有限我希望就是主委回去可以跟你的團隊好好的去study一下博客會在這件事情上面的角色還有跟其他法規的一些相關競合的問題我們謝謝汪小林委員的質詢我想今天的這個內容我想是不是\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5301\t7434\t謝謝召委 有請主委請主委被質詢 謝謝\n12097\t21540\t黃委員好主委好我想今天大概已經先前都有些委員有問您有關於台積電赴美社廠的問題那麼3月3號美國總統宣布台積電會在美國加碼投資1000億那麼這個新聞當然也引起了國內多人的許多民眾的關注尤其台積電是我們的護國神山又享有最關鍵最核心的一些晶圓的技術\n40606\t53115\t所以呢對於就是這一次台積電到美國去設廠不知道主委知不知道說他們預計會在那裡興建多少奈米的晶圓廠或是說他們可能會在那裡設置什麼樣的廠\n54124\t75173\t目前台積電在亞利桑那州設的第一個廠已經在運作了它是4奈米的製程接下來還有兩個廠陸續會蓋好開始運作可能就是會進到3奈米甚至到2奈米但是這個時程其實還要幾年以後也就是說\n79355\t95344\t台積電的這個最先進的製程一定是在台灣研發到量產量產以後他才會把成熟的這個量產的技術會擴散到我們所投資的這個海外的這個基地好那所以呢按照主委的意思就是說其實現在台積電到美國這個副廠然後\n100186\t112859\t接下來計劃可能會設置2奈米或是4奈米的晶圓廠基本上不是屬於我們國家國安法裡面所要管制的關鍵技術是嗎\n114359\t136184\t美國本來就科技比我們進步我們不可能管制我們的科技到美國科技項目我們有所謂管制國家請問一下我們在國安法的第三條裡面有講到什麼叫國家核心的關鍵技術請問主委那您認為台積電的技術不算是核心的關鍵\n137804\t162652\t核心關鍵技術是嗎?核心關鍵技術大概很難用製程的節點來概括譬如說兩奈米的技術,現在包含三星電子也說它有兩奈米技術包含美國的Intel也說它有,甚至它是1.8A,還講18A這個技術能不能進到量產\n163992\t170977\t那有很多的製造的know-how存在這種製造的know-how台積電是不會洩漏給別人的所以簡單來說您認為說只有在研發階段在量產之前的這個才是屬於我們國家要管制的核心技術然後量產之後就不算\n185027\t201125\t包括讓你去設廠然後接下來可能會有這個很多的相關的設備廠商一起去那這些因為他們都屬於量產了而且可能是都標準化設備化了所以這些不是屬於我們國家的關鍵技術大家都可以到那去設廠\n202671\t221470\t報告委員我再解釋一下我說譬如說量奈米的技術我們到美國去投資也是要經過我們經濟部投審會它是在我們自己量產技術成熟的已經在台灣製造以後我們才會討論這個事至於說它能不能到其他國家這個又是另外一回事因為我們有所謂的這個\n223786\t238596\t所謂在這個國際上被制裁的一些國家是管制的是更更嚴格還有更傳統製程的這個技術也都成熟的技術也都不能過去的所以這是兩回事那這一部分是經濟部在負責好您剛講的經濟部頭審會所以現在經濟部頭審會已經有接受到台積電有來申請投資的相關的計劃嗎\n245469\t248936\t他們應該在準備當中可能還沒有見到如果說經濟部投審會在審查相關案子的時候會諮詢國科會的意見嗎\n257121\t269545\t國科會應該有代表會有代表會有代表我們知道其實國科會本身依照國安法授權法的規定要設置國家核心關鍵技術審議會這個審議會其實在去年年底的時候\n276334\t302047\t有重新修正過最新的這個國家核心關鍵技術清單那現在我只是在PPT上面爐裂的這些技術項目當中有沒有涵蓋到這次台積電可能會到美國去設廠可能會帶去的技術美國並不是我們這些技術管制的國家是嗎 來我們回到前面第三條來請念一下\n307168\t315940\t國家核心關係技術是指如流入外國大陸地區香港澳門或境外敵對勢力將重大損害國家安全產業競爭力請問美國是不是外國\n319497\t323758\t我們剛講的那個是投資設廠我剛講關鍵技術我們是不會外流的關鍵技術的部分我們所管制的一些關鍵技術你怎麼這麼確認就不會外流廠都到了美國了\n341617\t354514\t如果他有外流就違法嘛 違法就需要處罰所以現在台積電可能會帶過去的技術不在你們所管制的技術項目裡面\n357982\t379333\t是嗎?不法外流要被加重刑罰處罰不法外流的話,如果是那個技術當然不法外流才會處罰我,現在是問您很簡單的問題就是台積電現在要過去的這個設廠會帶過去的這些技術算不算是列在你們這個核心關鍵技術項目清單裡嗎?\n383527\t390410\t當然我這方面是外行像什麼晶片安全技術量子位元製程技術這不是都是你們自己國科會自己寫的嗎\n393494\t400657\t我們這個就是要在投審會裡面審查那看看有沒有這是兩回事我要釐清在法規上面來講這個國家核心關鍵技術項目清單這是基於國安法裡面然後授權國科會要設置技術審議委員會要掳列這些清單所以如果違反這個清單的話它是會觸犯國安法的而且罰則很重\n420276\t448483\t是,但是國科會只是負責我們各部會提報的這些項目我們在這個審議會裡面審查所以你們確認了嗎?你們已經公告了這份清單嘛我們確認這些清單但是這些清單在執行的時候還是要回到主管的部會來認定它但是從國科會的角度認為要在那裡要設置2奈米、3奈米或4奈米的這個廠這些技術難道不算是台灣的我跟委員報告\n450604\t461149\t半導體的技術美國比台灣還要先進那既然如此他幹嘛硬是要逼著台積電去設廠那我剛剛提的就是說先進製程的製造台灣比他們強其實在一般的學校裡面做研究教授果然理論很強\n473243\t485320\t但是Technician很重要啊所以Technician他的know-how很重要啊這個應該也是屬於我們的關鍵技術但是這一部分連政府都不清楚的我跟委員報告\n485822\t503468\t是你說我們政府不清楚還是政府無權去介入他們的機密啊我們無權啊除非他有違法你才有執法的能力去進去啊他沒有違法你沒有辦法其實主委我很贊同您的看法但是我們現在國安法就定得這麼的清楚\n504682\t521348\t對不對他因為可能會違反一些關鍵技術所以呢這個之後我是覺得您現在說法有點像是限台積電於不義或是限經濟部其他的主管機關那未來到底要不要去了解他的關鍵技術還是說你們只是列了一個大框架然後之後呢想要處罰任何一個廠商就依照說我就是屬於違反這個項目的清單裡面我就可以罰那我不想罰的時候就不罰譬如說台積電\n531952\t534255\t他即便是帶走了這麼重要的觀念技術我們都還是可以認為我們還有營業秘密法就是我們對保護廠商啊\n539450\t562262\t國安法跟營業秘密法哪個是特別法這個我不清楚所以這個部分因為我今天時間是有限我希望就是主委回去可以跟你的團隊好好的去study一下博客會在這件事情上面的角色還有跟其他法規的一些相關競合的問題我們謝謝汪小林委員的質詢我想今天的這個內容我想是不是\n","txt":"謝謝召委 有請主委請主委被質詢 謝謝\n黃委員好主委好我想今天大概已經先前都有些委員有問您有關於台積電赴美社廠的問題那麼3月3號美國總統宣布台積電會在美國加碼投資1000億那麼這個新聞當然也引起了國內多人的許多民眾的關注尤其台積電是我們的護國神山又享有最關鍵最核心的一些晶圓的技術\n所以呢對於就是這一次台積電到美國去設廠不知道主委知不知道說他們預計會在那裡興建多少奈米的晶圓廠或是說他們可能會在那裡設置什麼樣的廠\n目前台積電在亞利桑那州設的第一個廠已經在運作了它是4奈米的製程接下來還有兩個廠陸續會蓋好開始運作可能就是會進到3奈米甚至到2奈米但是這個時程其實還要幾年以後也就是說\n台積電的這個最先進的製程一定是在台灣研發到量產量產以後他才會把成熟的這個量產的技術會擴散到我們所投資的這個海外的這個基地好那所以呢按照主委的意思就是說其實現在台積電到美國這個副廠然後\n接下來計劃可能會設置2奈米或是4奈米的晶圓廠基本上不是屬於我們國家國安法裡面所要管制的關鍵技術是嗎\n美國本來就科技比我們進步我們不可能管制我們的科技到美國科技項目我們有所謂管制國家請問一下我們在國安法的第三條裡面有講到什麼叫國家核心的關鍵技術請問主委那您認為台積電的技術不算是核心的關鍵\n核心關鍵技術是嗎?核心關鍵技術大概很難用製程的節點來概括譬如說兩奈米的技術,現在包含三星電子也說它有兩奈米技術包含美國的Intel也說它有,甚至它是1.8A,還講18A這個技術能不能進到量產\n那有很多的製造的know-how存在這種製造的know-how台積電是不會洩漏給別人的所以簡單來說您認為說只有在研發階段在量產之前的這個才是屬於我們國家要管制的核心技術然後量產之後就不算\n包括讓你去設廠然後接下來可能會有這個很多的相關的設備廠商一起去那這些因為他們都屬於量產了而且可能是都標準化設備化了所以這些不是屬於我們國家的關鍵技術大家都可以到那去設廠\n報告委員我再解釋一下我說譬如說量奈米的技術我們到美國去投資也是要經過我們經濟部投審會它是在我們自己量產技術成熟的已經在台灣製造以後我們才會討論這個事至於說它能不能到其他國家這個又是另外一回事因為我們有所謂的這個\n所謂在這個國際上被制裁的一些國家是管制的是更更嚴格還有更傳統製程的這個技術也都成熟的技術也都不能過去的所以這是兩回事那這一部分是經濟部在負責好您剛講的經濟部頭審會所以現在經濟部頭審會已經有接受到台積電有來申請投資的相關的計劃嗎\n他們應該在準備當中可能還沒有見到如果說經濟部投審會在審查相關案子的時候會諮詢國科會的意見嗎\n國科會應該有代表會有代表會有代表我們知道其實國科會本身依照國安法授權法的規定要設置國家核心關鍵技術審議會這個審議會其實在去年年底的時候\n有重新修正過最新的這個國家核心關鍵技術清單那現在我只是在PPT上面爐裂的這些技術項目當中有沒有涵蓋到這次台積電可能會到美國去設廠可能會帶去的技術美國並不是我們這些技術管制的國家是嗎 來我們回到前面第三條來請念一下\n國家核心關係技術是指如流入外國大陸地區香港澳門或境外敵對勢力將重大損害國家安全產業競爭力請問美國是不是外國\n我們剛講的那個是投資設廠我剛講關鍵技術我們是不會外流的關鍵技術的部分我們所管制的一些關鍵技術你怎麼這麼確認就不會外流廠都到了美國了\n如果他有外流就違法嘛 違法就需要處罰所以現在台積電可能會帶過去的技術不在你們所管制的技術項目裡面\n是嗎?不法外流要被加重刑罰處罰不法外流的話,如果是那個技術當然不法外流才會處罰我,現在是問您很簡單的問題就是台積電現在要過去的這個設廠會帶過去的這些技術算不算是列在你們這個核心關鍵技術項目清單裡嗎?\n當然我這方面是外行像什麼晶片安全技術量子位元製程技術這不是都是你們自己國科會自己寫的嗎\n我們這個就是要在投審會裡面審查那看看有沒有這是兩回事我要釐清在法規上面來講這個國家核心關鍵技術項目清單這是基於國安法裡面然後授權國科會要設置技術審議委員會要掳列這些清單所以如果違反這個清單的話它是會觸犯國安法的而且罰則很重\n是,但是國科會只是負責我們各部會提報的這些項目我們在這個審議會裡面審查所以你們確認了嗎?你們已經公告了這份清單嘛我們確認這些清單但是這些清單在執行的時候還是要回到主管的部會來認定它但是從國科會的角度認為要在那裡要設置2奈米、3奈米或4奈米的這個廠這些技術難道不算是台灣的我跟委員報告\n半導體的技術美國比台灣還要先進那既然如此他幹嘛硬是要逼著台積電去設廠那我剛剛提的就是說先進製程的製造台灣比他們強其實在一般的學校裡面做研究教授果然理論很強\n但是Technician很重要啊所以Technician他的know-how很重要啊這個應該也是屬於我們的關鍵技術但是這一部分連政府都不清楚的我跟委員報告\n是你說我們政府不清楚還是政府無權去介入他們的機密啊我們無權啊除非他有違法你才有執法的能力去進去啊他沒有違法你沒有辦法其實主委我很贊同您的看法但是我們現在國安法就定得這麼的清楚\n對不對他因為可能會違反一些關鍵技術所以呢這個之後我是覺得您現在說法有點像是限台積電於不義或是限經濟部其他的主管機關那未來到底要不要去了解他的關鍵技術還是說你們只是列了一個大框架然後之後呢想要處罰任何一個廠商就依照說我就是屬於違反這個項目的清單裡面我就可以罰那我不想罰的時候就不罰譬如說台積電\n他即便是帶走了這麼重要的觀念技術我們都還是可以認為我們還有營業秘密法就是我們對保護廠商啊\n國安法跟營業秘密法哪個是特別法這個我不清楚所以這個部分因為我今天時間是有限我希望就是主委回去可以跟你的團隊好好的去study一下博客會在這件事情上面的角色還有跟其他法規的一些相關競合的問題我們謝謝汪小林委員的質詢我想今天的這個內容我想是不是\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.301 --> 00:07.434\n謝謝召委有請主委請主委被質詢謝謝\n\n00:12.097 --> 00:21.540\n黃委員好主委好我想今天大概已經先前都有些委員有問您有關於台積電赴美社廠的問題那麼3月3號美國總統宣布台積電會在美國加碼投資1000億那麼這個新聞當然也引起了國內多人的許多民眾的關注尤其台積電是我們的護國神山又享有最關鍵最核心的一些晶圓的技術\n\n00:40.606 --> 00:53.115\n所以呢對於就是這一次台積電到美國去設廠不知道主委知不知道說他們預計會在那裡興建多少奈米的晶圓廠或是說他們可能會在那裡設置什麼樣的廠\n\n00:54.124 --> 01:15.173\n目前台積電在亞利桑那州設的第一個廠已經在運作了它是4奈米的製程接下來還有兩個廠陸續會蓋好開始運作可能就是會進到3奈米甚至到2奈米但是這個時程其實還要幾年以後也就是說\n\n01:19.355 --> 01:35.344\n台積電的這個最先進的製程一定是在台灣研發到量產量產以後他才會把成熟的這個量產的技術會擴散到我們所投資的這個海外的這個基地好那所以呢按照主委的意思就是說其實現在台積電到美國這個副廠然後\n\n01:40.186 --> 01:52.859\n接下來計劃可能會設置2奈米或是4奈米的晶圓廠基本上不是屬於我們國家國安法裡面所要管制的關鍵技術是嗎\n\n01:54.359 --> 02:16.184\n美國本來就科技比我們進步我們不可能管制我們的科技到美國科技項目我們有所謂管制國家請問一下我們在國安法的第三條裡面有講到什麼叫國家核心的關鍵技術請問主委那您認為台積電的技術不算是核心的關鍵\n\n02:17.804 --> 02:42.652\n核心關鍵技術是嗎?核心關鍵技術大概很難用製程的節點來概括譬如說兩奈米的技術,現在包含三星電子也說它有兩奈米技術包含美國的Intel也說它有,甚至它是1.8A,還講18A這個技術能不能進到量產\n\n02:43.992 --> 02:50.977\n那有很多的製造的know-how存在這種製造的know-how台積電是不會洩漏給別人的所以簡單來說您認為說只有在研發階段在量產之前的這個才是屬於我們國家要管制的核心技術然後量產之後就不算\n\n03:05.027 --> 03:21.125\n包括讓你去設廠然後接下來可能會有這個很多的相關的設備廠商一起去那這些因為他們都屬於量產了而且可能是都標準化設備化了所以這些不是屬於我們國家的關鍵技術大家都可以到那去設廠\n\n03:22.671 --> 03:41.470\n報告委員我再解釋一下我說譬如說量奈米的技術我們到美國去投資也是要經過我們經濟部投審會它是在我們自己量產技術成熟的已經在台灣製造以後我們才會討論這個事至於說它能不能到其他國家這個又是另外一回事因為我們有所謂的這個\n\n03:43.786 --> 03:58.596\n所謂在這個國際上被制裁的一些國家是管制的是更更嚴格還有更傳統製程的這個技術也都成熟的技術也都不能過去的所以這是兩回事那這一部分是經濟部在負責好您剛講的經濟部頭審會所以現在經濟部頭審會已經有接受到台積電有來申請投資的相關的計劃嗎\n\n04:05.469 --> 04:08.936\n他們應該在準備當中可能還沒有見到如果說經濟部投審會在審查相關案子的時候會諮詢國科會的意見嗎\n\n04:17.121 --> 04:29.545\n國科會應該有代表會有代表會有代表我們知道其實國科會本身依照國安法授權法的規定要設置國家核心關鍵技術審議會這個審議會其實在去年年底的時候\n\n04:36.334 --> 05:02.047\n有重新修正過最新的這個國家核心關鍵技術清單那現在我只是在PPT上面爐裂的這些技術項目當中有沒有涵蓋到這次台積電可能會到美國去設廠可能會帶去的技術美國並不是我們這些技術管制的國家是嗎來我們回到前面第三條來請念一下\n\n05:07.168 --> 05:15.940\n國家核心關係技術是指如流入外國大陸地區香港澳門或境外敵對勢力將重大損害國家安全產業競爭力請問美國是不是外國\n\n05:19.497 --> 05:23.758\n我們剛講的那個是投資設廠我剛講關鍵技術我們是不會外流的關鍵技術的部分我們所管制的一些關鍵技術你怎麼這麼確認就不會外流廠都到了美國了\n\n05:41.617 --> 05:54.514\n如果他有外流就違法嘛違法就需要處罰所以現在台積電可能會帶過去的技術不在你們所管制的技術項目裡面\n\n05:57.982 --> 06:19.333\n是嗎?不法外流要被加重刑罰處罰不法外流的話,如果是那個技術當然不法外流才會處罰我,現在是問您很簡單的問題就是台積電現在要過去的這個設廠會帶過去的這些技術算不算是列在你們這個核心關鍵技術項目清單裡嗎?\n\n06:23.527 --> 06:30.410\n當然我這方面是外行像什麼晶片安全技術量子位元製程技術這不是都是你們自己國科會自己寫的嗎\n\n06:33.494 --> 06:40.657\n我們這個就是要在投審會裡面審查那看看有沒有這是兩回事我要釐清在法規上面來講這個國家核心關鍵技術項目清單這是基於國安法裡面然後授權國科會要設置技術審議委員會要掳列這些清單所以如果違反這個清單的話它是會觸犯國安法的而且罰則很重\n\n07:00.276 --> 07:28.483\n是,但是國科會只是負責我們各部會提報的這些項目我們在這個審議會裡面審查所以你們確認了嗎?你們已經公告了這份清單嘛我們確認這些清單但是這些清單在執行的時候還是要回到主管的部會來認定它但是從國科會的角度認為要在那裡要設置2奈米、3奈米或4奈米的這個廠這些技術難道不算是台灣的我跟委員報告\n\n07:30.604 --> 07:41.149\n半導體的技術美國比台灣還要先進那既然如此他幹嘛硬是要逼著台積電去設廠那我剛剛提的就是說先進製程的製造台灣比他們強其實在一般的學校裡面做研究教授果然理論很強\n\n07:53.243 --> 08:05.320\n但是Technician很重要啊所以Technician他的know-how很重要啊這個應該也是屬於我們的關鍵技術但是這一部分連政府都不清楚的我跟委員報告\n\n08:05.822 --> 08:23.468\n是你說我們政府不清楚還是政府無權去介入他們的機密啊我們無權啊除非他有違法你才有執法的能力去進去啊他沒有違法你沒有辦法其實主委我很贊同您的看法但是我們現在國安法就定得這麼的清楚\n\n08:24.682 --> 08:41.348\n對不對他因為可能會違反一些關鍵技術所以呢這個之後我是覺得您現在說法有點像是限台積電於不義或是限經濟部其他的主管機關那未來到底要不要去了解他的關鍵技術還是說你們只是列了一個大框架然後之後呢想要處罰任何一個廠商就依照說我就是屬於違反這個項目的清單裡面我就可以罰那我不想罰的時候就不罰譬如說台積電\n\n08:51.952 --> 08:54.255\n他即便是帶走了這麼重要的觀念技術我們都還是可以認為我們還有營業秘密法就是我們對保護廠商啊\n\n08:59.450 --> 09:22.262\n國安法跟營業秘密法哪個是特別法這個我不清楚所以這個部分因為我今天時間是有限我希望就是主委回去可以跟你的團隊好好的去study一下博客會在這件事情上面的角色還有跟其他法規的一些相關競合的問題我們謝謝汪小林委員的質詢我想今天的這個內容我想是不是\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.301,"end":7.434,"text":"謝謝召委 有請主委請主委被質詢 謝謝"},{"start":12.097,"end":21.54,"text":"黃委員好主委好我想今天大概已經先前都有些委員有問您有關於台積電赴美社廠的問題那麼3月3號美國總統宣布台積電會在美國加碼投資1000億那麼這個新聞當然也引起了國內多人的許多民眾的關注尤其台積電是我們的護國神山又享有最關鍵最核心的一些晶圓的技術"},{"start":40.606,"end":53.115,"text":"所以呢對於就是這一次台積電到美國去設廠不知道主委知不知道說他們預計會在那裡興建多少奈米的晶圓廠或是說他們可能會在那裡設置什麼樣的廠"},{"start":54.124,"end":75.173,"text":"目前台積電在亞利桑那州設的第一個廠已經在運作了它是4奈米的製程接下來還有兩個廠陸續會蓋好開始運作可能就是會進到3奈米甚至到2奈米但是這個時程其實還要幾年以後也就是說"},{"start":79.355,"end":95.344,"text":"台積電的這個最先進的製程一定是在台灣研發到量產量產以後他才會把成熟的這個量產的技術會擴散到我們所投資的這個海外的這個基地好那所以呢按照主委的意思就是說其實現在台積電到美國這個副廠然後"},{"start":100.186,"end":112.859,"text":"接下來計劃可能會設置2奈米或是4奈米的晶圓廠基本上不是屬於我們國家國安法裡面所要管制的關鍵技術是嗎"},{"start":114.359,"end":136.184,"text":"美國本來就科技比我們進步我們不可能管制我們的科技到美國科技項目我們有所謂管制國家請問一下我們在國安法的第三條裡面有講到什麼叫國家核心的關鍵技術請問主委那您認為台積電的技術不算是核心的關鍵"},{"start":137.804,"end":162.652,"text":"核心關鍵技術是嗎?核心關鍵技術大概很難用製程的節點來概括譬如說兩奈米的技術,現在包含三星電子也說它有兩奈米技術包含美國的Intel也說它有,甚至它是1.8A,還講18A這個技術能不能進到量產"},{"start":163.992,"end":170.977,"text":"那有很多的製造的know-how存在這種製造的know-how台積電是不會洩漏給別人的所以簡單來說您認為說只有在研發階段在量產之前的這個才是屬於我們國家要管制的核心技術然後量產之後就不算"},{"start":185.027,"end":201.125,"text":"包括讓你去設廠然後接下來可能會有這個很多的相關的設備廠商一起去那這些因為他們都屬於量產了而且可能是都標準化設備化了所以這些不是屬於我們國家的關鍵技術大家都可以到那去設廠"},{"start":202.671,"end":221.47,"text":"報告委員我再解釋一下我說譬如說量奈米的技術我們到美國去投資也是要經過我們經濟部投審會它是在我們自己量產技術成熟的已經在台灣製造以後我們才會討論這個事至於說它能不能到其他國家這個又是另外一回事因為我們有所謂的這個"},{"start":223.786,"end":238.596,"text":"所謂在這個國際上被制裁的一些國家是管制的是更更嚴格還有更傳統製程的這個技術也都成熟的技術也都不能過去的所以這是兩回事那這一部分是經濟部在負責好您剛講的經濟部頭審會所以現在經濟部頭審會已經有接受到台積電有來申請投資的相關的計劃嗎"},{"start":245.469,"end":248.936,"text":"他們應該在準備當中可能還沒有見到如果說經濟部投審會在審查相關案子的時候會諮詢國科會的意見嗎"},{"start":257.121,"end":269.545,"text":"國科會應該有代表會有代表會有代表我們知道其實國科會本身依照國安法授權法的規定要設置國家核心關鍵技術審議會這個審議會其實在去年年底的時候"},{"start":276.334,"end":302.047,"text":"有重新修正過最新的這個國家核心關鍵技術清單那現在我只是在PPT上面爐裂的這些技術項目當中有沒有涵蓋到這次台積電可能會到美國去設廠可能會帶去的技術美國並不是我們這些技術管制的國家是嗎 來我們回到前面第三條來請念一下"},{"start":307.168,"end":315.94,"text":"國家核心關係技術是指如流入外國大陸地區香港澳門或境外敵對勢力將重大損害國家安全產業競爭力請問美國是不是外國"},{"start":319.497,"end":323.758,"text":"我們剛講的那個是投資設廠我剛講關鍵技術我們是不會外流的關鍵技術的部分我們所管制的一些關鍵技術你怎麼這麼確認就不會外流廠都到了美國了"},{"start":341.617,"end":354.514,"text":"如果他有外流就違法嘛 違法就需要處罰所以現在台積電可能會帶過去的技術不在你們所管制的技術項目裡面"},{"start":357.982,"end":379.333,"text":"是嗎?不法外流要被加重刑罰處罰不法外流的話,如果是那個技術當然不法外流才會處罰我,現在是問您很簡單的問題就是台積電現在要過去的這個設廠會帶過去的這些技術算不算是列在你們這個核心關鍵技術項目清單裡嗎?"},{"start":383.527,"end":390.41,"text":"當然我這方面是外行像什麼晶片安全技術量子位元製程技術這不是都是你們自己國科會自己寫的嗎"},{"start":393.494,"end":400.657,"text":"我們這個就是要在投審會裡面審查那看看有沒有這是兩回事我要釐清在法規上面來講這個國家核心關鍵技術項目清單這是基於國安法裡面然後授權國科會要設置技術審議委員會要掳列這些清單所以如果違反這個清單的話它是會觸犯國安法的而且罰則很重"},{"start":420.276,"end":448.483,"text":"是,但是國科會只是負責我們各部會提報的這些項目我們在這個審議會裡面審查所以你們確認了嗎?你們已經公告了這份清單嘛我們確認這些清單但是這些清單在執行的時候還是要回到主管的部會來認定它但是從國科會的角度認為要在那裡要設置2奈米、3奈米或4奈米的這個廠這些技術難道不算是台灣的我跟委員報告"},{"start":450.604,"end":461.149,"text":"半導體的技術美國比台灣還要先進那既然如此他幹嘛硬是要逼著台積電去設廠那我剛剛提的就是說先進製程的製造台灣比他們強其實在一般的學校裡面做研究教授果然理論很強"},{"start":473.243,"end":485.32,"text":"但是Technician很重要啊所以Technician他的know-how很重要啊這個應該也是屬於我們的關鍵技術但是這一部分連政府都不清楚的我跟委員報告"},{"start":485.822,"end":503.468,"text":"是你說我們政府不清楚還是政府無權去介入他們的機密啊我們無權啊除非他有違法你才有執法的能力去進去啊他沒有違法你沒有辦法其實主委我很贊同您的看法但是我們現在國安法就定得這麼的清楚"},{"start":504.682,"end":521.348,"text":"對不對他因為可能會違反一些關鍵技術所以呢這個之後我是覺得您現在說法有點像是限台積電於不義或是限經濟部其他的主管機關那未來到底要不要去了解他的關鍵技術還是說你們只是列了一個大框架然後之後呢想要處罰任何一個廠商就依照說我就是屬於違反這個項目的清單裡面我就可以罰那我不想罰的時候就不罰譬如說台積電"},{"start":531.952,"end":534.255,"text":"他即便是帶走了這麼重要的觀念技術我們都還是可以認為我們還有營業秘密法就是我們對保護廠商啊"},{"start":539.45,"end":562.262,"text":"國安法跟營業秘密法哪個是特別法這個我不清楚所以這個部分因為我今天時間是有限我希望就是主委回去可以跟你的團隊好好的去study一下博客會在這件事情上面的角色還有跟其他法規的一些相關競合的問題我們謝謝汪小林委員的質詢我想今天的這個內容我想是不是"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":737,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（12時17分）謝謝召委，有請主委。"],["主席：請主委備質詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：翁委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：主委好。今天先前大概都已經有委員有問您有關於台積電赴美設廠的問題，3月3號美國總統宣布台積電會在美國加碼投資1,000億，這個新聞當然也引起了國內許多民眾的關注，尤其台積電是我們的護國神山，又享有最關鍵、最核心的晶圓製造技術，所以，對於這一次台積電到美國去設廠，不知道主委知不知道，他們預計會在那裡興建多少奈米的晶圓廠，或是說他們可能會在那裡設置什麼樣的廠？"],["吳主任委員誠文：目前台積電在亞利桑那州設的第一個廠已經在運作了，它是4奈米的製程，接下來還有兩個廠陸續會蓋好開始運作，可能就會進到3奈米甚至到2奈米，但是這個時程其實還要幾年以後，也就是說台積電最先進的製程一定是在臺灣研發到量產，量產以後，他才會把成熟量產的技術擴散到我們所投資的海外基地。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，所以按照主委的意思就是說，現在台積電到美國投資設廠，接下來計畫可能會設置2奈米或者是您剛剛講的4奈米製程的晶圓廠，基本上它不是屬於我們國安法裡面所要管制的關鍵技術。是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：美國本來科技就比我們進步，我們不可能管制我們的科技到美國，科技項目……"],["翁委員曉玲：是喔。來，麻煩下一頁……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們有所謂的管制國家。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。好，那請問一下，我們在國安法的第三條裡面有講到什麼叫國家的核心關鍵技術。請問主委，您認為台積電的技術不算是核心關鍵技術？是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：核心關鍵技術大概很難用製程的節點來概括，譬如說2奈米的技術，現在包含三星電子也說它有2奈米技術，包含美國的Intel也說它有，甚至它是1.8，它講18A，這個技術能不能進到量產，有很多製造的know-how存在。這種製造的know-how，台積電是不會洩漏給別人的。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以簡單來說，您認為只有在研發階段、在量產之前的，這個才是屬於我們國家要管制的核心技術？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：量產之後就不算？包含讓你去設廠，接下來可能會有很多相關的設備廠商一起去，這些因為它們都屬於量產了，而且可能都標準化、設備化了，所以這些不是屬於我們國家的關鍵技術，大家都可以到那兒去設廠？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我再解釋一下，譬如2奈米的技術，我們到美國去投資，也是要經過我們經濟部投審會，它是在我們自己量產、技術成熟了，已經在臺灣製造以後我們才會討論這個事。至於它能不能到其他國家，這個又是另外一回事，因為所謂在國際上被制裁的一些國家，管制得更嚴格，還有更傳統製程的技術、成熟的技術也都不能過去，所以這是兩回事，這一部分是經濟部負責。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，您剛剛講到經濟部投審會，現在經濟部投審會已經接收到台積電申請投資的相關計畫嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：他們應該在準備當中，可能還沒有進到……"],["翁委員曉玲：是，如果經濟部投審會在審查相關案子的時候，會諮詢國科會的意見嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會應該有代表。"],["翁委員曉玲：會有代表嘛！我們知道，其實國科會本身依照現在國安法授權的規定，要設置國家核心關鍵技術審議會，這個審議會其實在去年年底有重新修正過最新的國家核心關鍵技術清單，主委，在我PPT上面臚列的這些技術項目當中，有沒有涵蓋到這次台積電到美國設廠可能會帶去的技術？"],["吳主任委員誠文：美國並不是我們這些技術管制的國家……"],["翁委員曉玲：是嗎？我們回到前面第三條，請唸一下：「國家核心關鍵技術，指如流入外國、大陸地區、香港、澳門或境外敵對勢力……"],["吳主任委員誠文：對不起，我更正……"],["翁委員曉玲：「將重大損害國家安全、產業競爭力……」請問美國是不是外國？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對不起，我更正一下。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。"],["吳主任委員誠文：對不起，我們剛剛講的那個是投資設廠。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。"],["吳主任委員誠文：那我剛剛講，回過頭來講關鍵技術，我們是不會外流的。關鍵技術的部分，我們所管制的一些關鍵技術，那……"],["翁委員曉玲：您怎麼那麼確認就不會外流？廠都到了美國了。"],["吳主任委員誠文：如果他有外流就違法，違法我們就需要處罰，那……"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以現在就是台積電會可能會帶過去的技術，不在你們所管制的技術項目裡面，是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不法外流的話，如果是那個技術……"],["翁委員曉玲：當然不法外流才會處罰，我現在是問您很簡單的問題，就是台積電現在要過去設廠會帶過去的這些技術，算不算是列在你們這個核心關鍵技術項目清單裡？當然我在這方面是外行，像什麼晶片安全技術、量子位元製程技術，這不是都是你們國科會自己寫的嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們這個就是要在投審會裡面審查，看看有沒有……"],["翁委員曉玲：這是兩回事，我要釐清。在法規上面來講，國家核心關鍵技術項目清單，這是基於國安法裡面的規定，然後授權國科會設置技術審議委員會，要臚列這些清單，如果違反這個清單的話，他是會觸犯國安法的，而且罰則很重。看到沒有？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，但是國科會只是負責我們各部會提報的這些項目，我們在這個審議會裡面審查，審查完以後……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以這是你們確認了嘛，你們已經公告了這份清單嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，我們確認這些清單，但這些清單在執行的時候還是要回到主管部會來認定它……"],["翁委員曉玲：但是從國科會的角度，你認不認為在那裡要設置2奈米、3奈米或4奈米的廠，這些技術難道不算是臺灣的國家核心關鍵技術？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我跟委員報告，半導體的技術美國比臺灣還要先進，半導體的技術。"],["翁委員曉玲：既然如此，他幹嘛硬是要逼著臺灣台積電去設廠？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我剛剛提的就是，先進製程的製造臺灣比他們強。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以know-how很重要。"],["吳主任委員誠文：製造有很多know-how。"],["翁委員曉玲：就像我們在講，其實在一般學校裡面做研究，教授固然理論很強，但是technician很重要……"],["吳主任委員誠文：他不見得做得出來。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，沒有錯。所以technician的know-how很重要，這應該也是屬於我們的關鍵技術，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，但這一部分連政府都不清楚的，我跟委員報告。"],["翁委員曉玲：你說我們政府不清楚，還是……"],["吳主任委員誠文：政府無權去介入他們的機密，我們無權，除非他有違法，你才有執法的能力而進入；他沒有違法，你沒有辦法，政府不能……"],["翁委員曉玲：其實主委，我很贊同您的看法，但是我們現在國安法就定得這麼清楚，對不對？他因為可能會違反一些關鍵技術，所以這個之後……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，但……"],["翁委員曉玲：我覺得您現在的說法有點像是陷台積電於不義，或者是陷經濟部其他的主管機關……那未來到底要不要去了解它的關鍵技術，還是你們只是列了一個大框架，之後想要處罰任何一個廠商就說那是屬於違反這個項目的清單裡面，我就可以罰，那我不想罰的時候就不罰？譬如台積電，他即便是帶走了這麼重要的關鍵技術，我們都還是可以認為不構成。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們還有營業秘密法，就是我們得保護廠商，這……"],["翁委員曉玲：國安法跟營業秘密法哪個是特別法？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個我不清楚。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以這個部分，因為我今天時間有限，我希望主委回去可以跟你的團隊好好地study一下國科會在這件事情上面的角色，還有跟其他法規的一些相關競合的問題，以上。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["主席：我們謝謝翁曉玲委員的質詢，今天的這個內容，我想因為翁曉玲委員還沒問完，但時間到了，是不是請主委書面答復？我也提醒一下主委，剛剛有一些細節是很明確的，也希望您可以尊重立院來明確回復。剛剛關鍵技術有提到14奈米，現在出去的是3奈米、2奈米，您其實是可以回復的，再麻煩您可以根據您的專業和經驗再予以相關的回復。","接著進行質詢，有請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","林沛祥","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","葉元之","郭昱晴","范雲","陳培瑜","萬美玲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","林倩綺"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00002"}}}