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0.916}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 504.805, \"end\": 505.026, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"施\", \"start\": 505.026, \"end\": 505.186, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 505.186, \"end\": 505.306, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 505.306, \"end\": 505.467, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 505.467, \"end\": 505.627, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 505.627, \"end\": 506.308, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 506.308, \"end\": 506.408, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 506.408, \"end\": 506.548, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 506.548, \"end\": 506.869, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 506.869, \"end\": 507.209, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 507.209, \"end\": 507.53, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 507.53, \"end\": 507.69, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 507.69, \"end\": 507.79, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 507.79, \"end\": 507.89, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 507.89, \"end\": 507.91, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 507.91, \"end\": 507.97, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 507.97, \"end\": 508.131, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 508.131, \"end\": 508.351, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 508.351, \"end\": 508.471, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 508.471, \"end\": 508.551, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 508.551, \"end\": 508.571, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,019 --> 00:00:04,900\n誰是台灣國家安全的最大威脅\n\n2\n00:00:27,932 --> 00:00:45,558\n最近總統是不是又講了我們看下一頁國家安全我們如果說國家安全我們只有一個威脅最大就是來自對岸對台灣的不友善的政策很好總統說定義中國是境外敵對勢力提出了五大威脅要因應的十七項的策略工程會怎麼因應\n\n3\n00:00:48,098 --> 00:01:07,658\n還在想來先告訴你速發部早就因應了限制使用危害國家資通安全的產品它在109年的12月就已經對於採購大陸品牌的資通安全設備服務軟體硬體都包含在內好可是這裡面還包括了什麼不是只是單純的通訊設備喔施工機具裡面也有啊\n\n4\n00:01:08,419 --> 00:01:22,474\n工程營造的國營社裡面也有啊關鍵基礎設施航港航空港口都有工程會要怎麼落實這些呈現在包括了基民的關鍵基礎設施裡面的工程服務啦設備採購你怎麼做\n\n5\n00:01:24,554 --> 00:01:46,091\n我想跟委員報告關於這個中資或中國在台灣成立的公司等等這個原本的採購法或相關的規定都已經有很明確的準則跟辦法好告訴你不夠這個在去年5月有就說港口陳柏安破口關鍵就是設施要檢核治安那時候有一個叫做建華重工\n\n6\n00:01:46,832 --> 00:02:13,270\n起重機港口的起重機它是中國製的最重要是裡面的晶片所以後來港務公司他說根據相關的工業控制系統依照這個相關的基準去進行資安集合資安署也說了以後他們為了勞工的職業安全他們對於這些重機具的補助也排除了中國製造很好那麼您知道國土辦認為除了這兩個部門之外還有哪個部門要做嗎\n\n7\n00:02:16,912 --> 00:02:42,948\n他說請工程會研修工程採購契約範本這裡面提到說國營工單位公共工程及軍事單位全面禁止中國製機具進廠施作不是採購連施作都不可以喔以保障自通安全那麼這裡面他認為說要做到這一點的話工程會要適時的研修工程採購的契約範本我講的是維修工程跟營造工程什麼時候做了研修了沒有\n\n8\n00:02:45,975 --> 00:02:48,410\n趕快回答時間把握我請祖密來回答\n\n9\n00:02:50,404 --> 00:03:16,331\n跟委員報告有關這個部分我們草案已經草擬了我們兩週以內發布兩週以內好很好主委有進度了我們看一看所以涉及國家安全的採購標準如何認定這是台電的兩個電廠一個他們寫說本採購是涉及國家安全他自己填什麼沒有另外一個台電新拿發電廠他說是否涉及國家安全他說是是或不是都是台電自己說的算數嗎主委可以這樣子嗎\n\n10\n00:03:18,075 --> 00:03:40,408\n有沒有認定標準這就是你們的問題啦你們基本上工程會沒辦法管到那麼多雖然你們等於要求各單位自行竊竊自行檢核但是這個檢核禁不起其他第三方的集合這是工程會要去把關趕快把這個機制建立起來可以嗎主委跟我們報告是否涉及國家安全是一個概念\n\n11\n00:03:40,768 --> 00:04:08,155\n是那我們工程會的採購的規定應該有比較具體的比方說是中資或者是公司這樣子的話採購機關才能夠有能夠培訓那如果說有沒有涉及國家安全不然他的上級機關他的主管機關您回去請台電查一查說明這兩件為什麼一件事一件火查清楚再回答可以嗎好好往下看所以呢工程會要這邊怎麼樣你們什麼時候完成\n\n12\n00:04:08,855 --> 00:04:23,006\n據敏感性含資安疑慮的業務範疇及涉及公安權的判定標準它的稽查程序資訊進入範圍公共工程及基礎關鍵設施的施工採購包括它的採購跟服務維修如何防篤中國的滲透竊資跟破壞可以去研擬嗎\n\n13\n00:04:24,551 --> 00:04:47,159\n我們也跟各機關都有互相在討論包括國安單位包括其他單位那麼他碰到問題的時候我們也會再補強相關的規定希望主委積極一點我私下也請過不同單位包括我們工程會來都是說說而已沒有具體進度剛剛很開心聽到兩週內可以看得到我希望後續的具體進度讓本席知道可以嗎\n\n14\n00:04:49,039 --> 00:05:14,458\n但是這個跟委員報告如果說一個概念性的東西應該要比較明確的給我多一點時間去跟其他機關來討論啦所以是立委您的工作重點之一囉有沒有涉及國安這件事情工程會沒辦法單獨認定當然我們只可以認定他採購的對象或採購的這個希望你們配合把這個標準明定出來可以嗎\n\n15\n00:05:24,564 --> 00:05:40,711\n跟委員報告就是說目前當然譬如說是基礎關鍵的設施啊那麼有相關的機關去認定嘛但是在某一些設備裡面到底他屬不屬於涉及到國安呢坦白講並不是工程會好我靠你一提啦維修廠的廠商的他的設備進場去維修要不要檢查\n\n16\n00:05:42,947 --> 00:06:10,998\n港口的洗重機已經禁止中資的了或者他中資裡面他說裡面沒有設晶片我進去維修我把晶片放上去你查得到嗎這包括服務採購都包括在內不是只有工程採購啊這部門會在工程採購企業裡面去規範但是我的意思是說到底哪一些設備哪一些機具會夾在這些東西的話因為並不是工程會的專業是的那我們當然可以會同其他單位來稍微做一個理解但是最後回歸到工程會給各機關一個準據好嗎\n\n17\n00:06:12,699 --> 00:06:32,418\n是好謝謝主委來我們趕快後面一題趕快進行我之前上週才在問建築內設充電樁的爭議租屋大樓啊有電動車的擔心這充電樁會有公安權危險但是呢電動車主認為說沒有充電樁我幹嘛買你的租屋大樓這是一個題目但是其實主委要看一下電動車它其實會移動的儲能設施啊\n\n18\n00:06:34,620 --> 00:06:58,670\n其實呢電動車行駛的時間遠少於靜止時間靜止時間它停在大樓裡面就是一個儲能設施可以供應什麼請看下一頁它可以供應一個虛擬電廠的需求所以現在呢公有建築物的停車設施應該超前部署去思考不是只處理一個住戶大樓的充電狀的設置而已因為公有建築配合上固定型的光電停下的電動車加上EMS系統\n\n19\n00:07:00,751 --> 00:07:17,496\n它才會有儲能設施就會成為台電它在分散尖峰離峰設施的一個規範那這個規範呢有很多單位包括台電包括經濟部請問這麼多單位包括內政部包括國土署包括建築研究所包括交通部主委您身兼政委這幾個部會是不是您在協調\n\n20\n00:07:18,897 --> 00:07:34,885\n能源的部分不是我督導不過我可以對委員的高見非常佩服啦電動車當然是一個微型的儲能的機制但是呢台電必須配合有智慧型的微電網是的你如果全國性的電網這個電動車作為儲能是沒辦法\n\n21\n00:07:38,695 --> 00:07:53,910\n上不去了所以它要有一個區域的微型的智慧型電腦那如果大家都會使用電動車的時候那我們電廠的需求自然會降低是的所以這個部分要超前部署來研擬我已經請教過能源署請教過台電請教過建築研究所\n\n22\n00:07:54,631 --> 00:08:18,457\n他們說呢這些涉及到跨部會可能不是工程會必須是曾經的政務委員出面來協調主委可以評估一下嗎我最後結論兩件事情請延熙延逸公共工程及關鍵基礎設施的施工的工程採購落實防篤中國滲透切之破壞的方案我不要寫一個月啦請提一個書面報告你們要跟國安單位好好來研究第二個請政委呢出面來協調\n\n23\n00:08:19,557 --> 00:08:28,571\n公有建築構築停車設施納維虛擬電廠相關規範以及率先施行的方案這個部分也請你們來研議我不定時間可以嗎好謝謝主委謝謝好謝謝我們\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4019\t4900\t誰是台灣國家安全的最大威脅\n27932\t45558\t最近總統是不是又講了我們看下一頁國家安全我們如果說國家安全我們只有一個威脅最大就是來自對岸對台灣的不友善的政策很好總統說定義中國是境外敵對勢力提出了五大威脅要因應的十七項的策略工程會怎麼因應\n48098\t67658\t還在想 來先告訴你速發部早就因應了限制使用危害國家資通安全的產品它在109年的12月就已經對於採購大陸品牌的資通安全設備服務軟體硬體都包含在內好 可是這裡面還包括了什麼不是只是單純的通訊設備喔施工機具裡面也有啊\n68419\t82474\t工程營造的國營社裡面也有啊關鍵基礎設施 航港 航空港口都有工程會要怎麼落實這些 呈現在包括了基民的關鍵基礎設施裡面的工程服務啦 設備採購 你怎麼做\n84554\t106091\t我想跟委員報告 關於這個中資或中國在台灣成立的公司等等這個原本的採購法或相關的規定都已經有很明確的準則跟辦法好 告訴你 不夠這個在去年5月有就說港口陳柏安破口關鍵就是設施要檢核治安 那時候有一個叫做建華重工\n106832\t133270\t起重機港口的起重機它是中國製的最重要是裡面的晶片所以後來港務公司他說根據相關的工業控制系統依照這個相關的基準去進行資安集合資安署也說了以後他們為了勞工的職業安全他們對於這些重機具的補助也排除了中國製造很好那麼您知道國土辦認為除了這兩個部門之外還有哪個部門要做嗎\n136912\t162948\t他說請工程會研修工程採購契約範本這裡面提到說國營工單位公共工程及軍事單位全面禁止中國製機具進廠施作不是採購連施作都不可以喔以保障自通安全那麼這裡面他認為說要做到這一點的話工程會要適時的研修工程採購的契約範本我講的是維修工程跟營造工程什麼時候做了研修了沒有\n165975\t168410\t趕快回答 時間把握我請祖密來回答\n170404\t196331\t跟委員報告 有關這個部分我們草案已經草擬了 我們兩週以內發布兩週以內 好 很好 主委有進度了 我們看一看所以涉及國家安全的採購標準如何認定這是台電的兩個電廠一個他們寫說本採購是涉及國家安全他自己填什麼 沒有另外一個台電新拿發電廠他說是否涉及國家安全 他說是是或不是都是台電自己說的算數嗎主委 可以這樣子嗎\n198075\t220408\t有沒有認定標準這就是你們的問題啦你們基本上工程會沒辦法管到那麼多雖然你們等於要求各單位自行竊竊自行檢核但是這個檢核禁不起其他第三方的集合這是工程會要去把關趕快把這個機制建立起來可以嗎 主委跟我們報告是否涉及國家安全是一個概念\n220768\t248155\t是 那我們工程會的採購的規定應該有比較具體的比方說是中資或者是公司這樣子的話採購機關才能夠有能夠培訓那如果說有沒有涉及國家安全不然他的上級機關他的主管機關您回去請台電查一查說明這兩件為什麼一件事一件火查清楚再回答可以嗎好好往下看所以呢工程會要這邊怎麼樣你們什麼時候完成\n248855\t263006\t據敏感性含資安疑慮的業務範疇及涉及公安權的判定標準它的稽查程序資訊進入範圍公共工程及基礎關鍵設施的施工採購包括它的採購跟服務維修如何防篤中國的滲透竊資跟破壞可以去研擬嗎\n264551\t287159\t我們也跟各機關都有互相在討論包括國安單位包括其他單位那麼他碰到問題的時候我們也會再補強相關的規定希望主委積極一點我私下也請過不同單位包括我們工程會來都是說說而已沒有具體進度剛剛很開心聽到兩週內可以看得到我希望後續的具體進度讓本席知道可以嗎\n289039\t314458\t但是這個跟委員報告如果說一個概念性的東西應該要比較明確的給我多一點時間去跟其他機關來討論啦所以是立委您的工作重點之一囉有沒有涉及國安這件事情工程會沒辦法單獨認定當然我們只可以認定他採購的對象或採購的這個希望你們配合把這個標準明定出來可以嗎\n324564\t340711\t跟委員報告就是說目前當然譬如說是基礎關鍵的設施啊那麼有相關的機關去認定嘛但是在某一些設備裡面到底他屬不屬於涉及到國安呢坦白講並不是工程會好我靠你一提啦維修廠的廠商的他的設備進場去維修要不要檢查\n342947\t370998\t港口的洗重機已經禁止中資的了或者他中資裡面他說裡面沒有設晶片我進去維修我把晶片放上去你查得到嗎這包括服務採購都包括在內不是只有工程採購啊這部門會在工程採購企業裡面去規範但是我的意思是說到底哪一些設備哪一些機具會夾在這些東西的話因為並不是工程會的專業是的那我們當然可以會同其他單位來稍微做一個理解但是最後回歸到工程會給各機關一個準據好嗎\n372699\t392418\t是好謝謝主委來我們趕快後面一題趕快進行我之前上週才在問建築內設充電樁的爭議租屋大樓啊有電動車的擔心這充電樁會有公安權危險但是呢電動車主認為說沒有充電樁我幹嘛買你的租屋大樓這是一個題目但是其實主委要看一下電動車它其實會移動的儲能設施啊\n394620\t418670\t其實呢電動車行駛的時間遠少於靜止時間靜止時間它停在大樓裡面就是一個儲能設施可以供應什麼請看下一頁它可以供應一個虛擬電廠的需求所以現在呢公有建築物的停車設施應該超前部署去思考不是只處理一個住戶大樓的充電狀的設置而已因為公有建築配合上固定型的光電停下的電動車加上EMS系統\n420751\t437496\t它才會有儲能設施就會成為台電它在分散尖峰離峰設施的一個規範那這個規範呢有很多單位包括台電包括經濟部請問這麼多單位包括內政部包括國土署包括建築研究所包括交通部主委您身兼政委這幾個部會是不是您在協調\n438897\t454885\t能源的部分不是我督導不過我可以對委員的高見非常佩服啦電動車當然是一個微型的儲能的機制但是呢台電必須配合有智慧型的微電網是的你如果全國性的電網這個電動車作為儲能是沒辦法\n458695\t473910\t上不去了所以它要有一個區域的微型的智慧型電腦那如果大家都會使用電動車的時候那我們電廠的需求自然會降低是的所以這個部分要超前部署來研擬我已經請教過能源署請教過台電請教過建築研究所\n474631\t498457\t他們說呢 這些涉及到跨部會可能不是工程會 必須是曾經的政務委員出面來協調主委可以評估一下嗎 我最後結論兩件事情 請延熙 延逸公共工程及關鍵基礎設施的施工的工程採購落實防篤中國滲透 切之破壞的方案我不要寫一個月啦 請提一個書面報告你們要跟國安單位好好來研究第二個 請政委呢 出面來協調\n499557\t508571\t公有建築構築停車設施納維虛擬電廠相關規範以及率先施行的方案這個部分也請你們來研議我不定時間可以嗎好謝謝主委謝謝好謝謝我們\n","txt":"誰是台灣國家安全的最大威脅\n最近總統是不是又講了我們看下一頁國家安全我們如果說國家安全我們只有一個威脅最大就是來自對岸對台灣的不友善的政策很好總統說定義中國是境外敵對勢力提出了五大威脅要因應的十七項的策略工程會怎麼因應\n還在想 來先告訴你速發部早就因應了限制使用危害國家資通安全的產品它在109年的12月就已經對於採購大陸品牌的資通安全設備服務軟體硬體都包含在內好 可是這裡面還包括了什麼不是只是單純的通訊設備喔施工機具裡面也有啊\n工程營造的國營社裡面也有啊關鍵基礎設施 航港 航空港口都有工程會要怎麼落實這些 呈現在包括了基民的關鍵基礎設施裡面的工程服務啦 設備採購 你怎麼做\n我想跟委員報告 關於這個中資或中國在台灣成立的公司等等這個原本的採購法或相關的規定都已經有很明確的準則跟辦法好 告訴你 不夠這個在去年5月有就說港口陳柏安破口關鍵就是設施要檢核治安 那時候有一個叫做建華重工\n起重機港口的起重機它是中國製的最重要是裡面的晶片所以後來港務公司他說根據相關的工業控制系統依照這個相關的基準去進行資安集合資安署也說了以後他們為了勞工的職業安全他們對於這些重機具的補助也排除了中國製造很好那麼您知道國土辦認為除了這兩個部門之外還有哪個部門要做嗎\n他說請工程會研修工程採購契約範本這裡面提到說國營工單位公共工程及軍事單位全面禁止中國製機具進廠施作不是採購連施作都不可以喔以保障自通安全那麼這裡面他認為說要做到這一點的話工程會要適時的研修工程採購的契約範本我講的是維修工程跟營造工程什麼時候做了研修了沒有\n趕快回答 時間把握我請祖密來回答\n跟委員報告 有關這個部分我們草案已經草擬了 我們兩週以內發布兩週以內 好 很好 主委有進度了 我們看一看所以涉及國家安全的採購標準如何認定這是台電的兩個電廠一個他們寫說本採購是涉及國家安全他自己填什麼 沒有另外一個台電新拿發電廠他說是否涉及國家安全 他說是是或不是都是台電自己說的算數嗎主委 可以這樣子嗎\n有沒有認定標準這就是你們的問題啦你們基本上工程會沒辦法管到那麼多雖然你們等於要求各單位自行竊竊自行檢核但是這個檢核禁不起其他第三方的集合這是工程會要去把關趕快把這個機制建立起來可以嗎 主委跟我們報告是否涉及國家安全是一個概念\n是 那我們工程會的採購的規定應該有比較具體的比方說是中資或者是公司這樣子的話採購機關才能夠有能夠培訓那如果說有沒有涉及國家安全不然他的上級機關他的主管機關您回去請台電查一查說明這兩件為什麼一件事一件火查清楚再回答可以嗎好好往下看所以呢工程會要這邊怎麼樣你們什麼時候完成\n據敏感性含資安疑慮的業務範疇及涉及公安權的判定標準它的稽查程序資訊進入範圍公共工程及基礎關鍵設施的施工採購包括它的採購跟服務維修如何防篤中國的滲透竊資跟破壞可以去研擬嗎\n我們也跟各機關都有互相在討論包括國安單位包括其他單位那麼他碰到問題的時候我們也會再補強相關的規定希望主委積極一點我私下也請過不同單位包括我們工程會來都是說說而已沒有具體進度剛剛很開心聽到兩週內可以看得到我希望後續的具體進度讓本席知道可以嗎\n但是這個跟委員報告如果說一個概念性的東西應該要比較明確的給我多一點時間去跟其他機關來討論啦所以是立委您的工作重點之一囉有沒有涉及國安這件事情工程會沒辦法單獨認定當然我們只可以認定他採購的對象或採購的這個希望你們配合把這個標準明定出來可以嗎\n跟委員報告就是說目前當然譬如說是基礎關鍵的設施啊那麼有相關的機關去認定嘛但是在某一些設備裡面到底他屬不屬於涉及到國安呢坦白講並不是工程會好我靠你一提啦維修廠的廠商的他的設備進場去維修要不要檢查\n港口的洗重機已經禁止中資的了或者他中資裡面他說裡面沒有設晶片我進去維修我把晶片放上去你查得到嗎這包括服務採購都包括在內不是只有工程採購啊這部門會在工程採購企業裡面去規範但是我的意思是說到底哪一些設備哪一些機具會夾在這些東西的話因為並不是工程會的專業是的那我們當然可以會同其他單位來稍微做一個理解但是最後回歸到工程會給各機關一個準據好嗎\n是好謝謝主委來我們趕快後面一題趕快進行我之前上週才在問建築內設充電樁的爭議租屋大樓啊有電動車的擔心這充電樁會有公安權危險但是呢電動車主認為說沒有充電樁我幹嘛買你的租屋大樓這是一個題目但是其實主委要看一下電動車它其實會移動的儲能設施啊\n其實呢電動車行駛的時間遠少於靜止時間靜止時間它停在大樓裡面就是一個儲能設施可以供應什麼請看下一頁它可以供應一個虛擬電廠的需求所以現在呢公有建築物的停車設施應該超前部署去思考不是只處理一個住戶大樓的充電狀的設置而已因為公有建築配合上固定型的光電停下的電動車加上EMS系統\n它才會有儲能設施就會成為台電它在分散尖峰離峰設施的一個規範那這個規範呢有很多單位包括台電包括經濟部請問這麼多單位包括內政部包括國土署包括建築研究所包括交通部主委您身兼政委這幾個部會是不是您在協調\n能源的部分不是我督導不過我可以對委員的高見非常佩服啦電動車當然是一個微型的儲能的機制但是呢台電必須配合有智慧型的微電網是的你如果全國性的電網這個電動車作為儲能是沒辦法\n上不去了所以它要有一個區域的微型的智慧型電腦那如果大家都會使用電動車的時候那我們電廠的需求自然會降低是的所以這個部分要超前部署來研擬我已經請教過能源署請教過台電請教過建築研究所\n他們說呢 這些涉及到跨部會可能不是工程會 必須是曾經的政務委員出面來協調主委可以評估一下嗎 我最後結論兩件事情 請延熙 延逸公共工程及關鍵基礎設施的施工的工程採購落實防篤中國滲透 切之破壞的方案我不要寫一個月啦 請提一個書面報告你們要跟國安單位好好來研究第二個 請政委呢 出面來協調\n公有建築構築停車設施納維虛擬電廠相關規範以及率先施行的方案這個部分也請你們來研議我不定時間可以嗎好謝謝主委謝謝好謝謝我們\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.019 --> 00:04.900\n誰是台灣國家安全的最大威脅\n\n00:27.932 --> 00:45.558\n最近總統是不是又講了我們看下一頁國家安全我們如果說國家安全我們只有一個威脅最大就是來自對岸對台灣的不友善的政策很好總統說定義中國是境外敵對勢力提出了五大威脅要因應的十七項的策略工程會怎麼因應\n\n00:48.098 --> 01:07.658\n還在想來先告訴你速發部早就因應了限制使用危害國家資通安全的產品它在109年的12月就已經對於採購大陸品牌的資通安全設備服務軟體硬體都包含在內好可是這裡面還包括了什麼不是只是單純的通訊設備喔施工機具裡面也有啊\n\n01:08.419 --> 01:22.474\n工程營造的國營社裡面也有啊關鍵基礎設施航港航空港口都有工程會要怎麼落實這些呈現在包括了基民的關鍵基礎設施裡面的工程服務啦設備採購你怎麼做\n\n01:24.554 --> 01:46.091\n我想跟委員報告關於這個中資或中國在台灣成立的公司等等這個原本的採購法或相關的規定都已經有很明確的準則跟辦法好告訴你不夠這個在去年5月有就說港口陳柏安破口關鍵就是設施要檢核治安那時候有一個叫做建華重工\n\n01:46.832 --> 02:13.270\n起重機港口的起重機它是中國製的最重要是裡面的晶片所以後來港務公司他說根據相關的工業控制系統依照這個相關的基準去進行資安集合資安署也說了以後他們為了勞工的職業安全他們對於這些重機具的補助也排除了中國製造很好那麼您知道國土辦認為除了這兩個部門之外還有哪個部門要做嗎\n\n02:16.912 --> 02:42.948\n他說請工程會研修工程採購契約範本這裡面提到說國營工單位公共工程及軍事單位全面禁止中國製機具進廠施作不是採購連施作都不可以喔以保障自通安全那麼這裡面他認為說要做到這一點的話工程會要適時的研修工程採購的契約範本我講的是維修工程跟營造工程什麼時候做了研修了沒有\n\n02:45.975 --> 02:48.410\n趕快回答時間把握我請祖密來回答\n\n02:50.404 --> 03:16.331\n跟委員報告有關這個部分我們草案已經草擬了我們兩週以內發布兩週以內好很好主委有進度了我們看一看所以涉及國家安全的採購標準如何認定這是台電的兩個電廠一個他們寫說本採購是涉及國家安全他自己填什麼沒有另外一個台電新拿發電廠他說是否涉及國家安全他說是是或不是都是台電自己說的算數嗎主委可以這樣子嗎\n\n03:18.075 --> 03:40.408\n有沒有認定標準這就是你們的問題啦你們基本上工程會沒辦法管到那麼多雖然你們等於要求各單位自行竊竊自行檢核但是這個檢核禁不起其他第三方的集合這是工程會要去把關趕快把這個機制建立起來可以嗎主委跟我們報告是否涉及國家安全是一個概念\n\n03:40.768 --> 04:08.155\n是那我們工程會的採購的規定應該有比較具體的比方說是中資或者是公司這樣子的話採購機關才能夠有能夠培訓那如果說有沒有涉及國家安全不然他的上級機關他的主管機關您回去請台電查一查說明這兩件為什麼一件事一件火查清楚再回答可以嗎好好往下看所以呢工程會要這邊怎麼樣你們什麼時候完成\n\n04:08.855 --> 04:23.006\n據敏感性含資安疑慮的業務範疇及涉及公安權的判定標準它的稽查程序資訊進入範圍公共工程及基礎關鍵設施的施工採購包括它的採購跟服務維修如何防篤中國的滲透竊資跟破壞可以去研擬嗎\n\n04:24.551 --> 04:47.159\n我們也跟各機關都有互相在討論包括國安單位包括其他單位那麼他碰到問題的時候我們也會再補強相關的規定希望主委積極一點我私下也請過不同單位包括我們工程會來都是說說而已沒有具體進度剛剛很開心聽到兩週內可以看得到我希望後續的具體進度讓本席知道可以嗎\n\n04:49.039 --> 05:14.458\n但是這個跟委員報告如果說一個概念性的東西應該要比較明確的給我多一點時間去跟其他機關來討論啦所以是立委您的工作重點之一囉有沒有涉及國安這件事情工程會沒辦法單獨認定當然我們只可以認定他採購的對象或採購的這個希望你們配合把這個標準明定出來可以嗎\n\n05:24.564 --> 05:40.711\n跟委員報告就是說目前當然譬如說是基礎關鍵的設施啊那麼有相關的機關去認定嘛但是在某一些設備裡面到底他屬不屬於涉及到國安呢坦白講並不是工程會好我靠你一提啦維修廠的廠商的他的設備進場去維修要不要檢查\n\n05:42.947 --> 06:10.998\n港口的洗重機已經禁止中資的了或者他中資裡面他說裡面沒有設晶片我進去維修我把晶片放上去你查得到嗎這包括服務採購都包括在內不是只有工程採購啊這部門會在工程採購企業裡面去規範但是我的意思是說到底哪一些設備哪一些機具會夾在這些東西的話因為並不是工程會的專業是的那我們當然可以會同其他單位來稍微做一個理解但是最後回歸到工程會給各機關一個準據好嗎\n\n06:12.699 --> 06:32.418\n是好謝謝主委來我們趕快後面一題趕快進行我之前上週才在問建築內設充電樁的爭議租屋大樓啊有電動車的擔心這充電樁會有公安權危險但是呢電動車主認為說沒有充電樁我幹嘛買你的租屋大樓這是一個題目但是其實主委要看一下電動車它其實會移動的儲能設施啊\n\n06:34.620 --> 06:58.670\n其實呢電動車行駛的時間遠少於靜止時間靜止時間它停在大樓裡面就是一個儲能設施可以供應什麼請看下一頁它可以供應一個虛擬電廠的需求所以現在呢公有建築物的停車設施應該超前部署去思考不是只處理一個住戶大樓的充電狀的設置而已因為公有建築配合上固定型的光電停下的電動車加上EMS系統\n\n07:00.751 --> 07:17.496\n它才會有儲能設施就會成為台電它在分散尖峰離峰設施的一個規範那這個規範呢有很多單位包括台電包括經濟部請問這麼多單位包括內政部包括國土署包括建築研究所包括交通部主委您身兼政委這幾個部會是不是您在協調\n\n07:18.897 --> 07:34.885\n能源的部分不是我督導不過我可以對委員的高見非常佩服啦電動車當然是一個微型的儲能的機制但是呢台電必須配合有智慧型的微電網是的你如果全國性的電網這個電動車作為儲能是沒辦法\n\n07:38.695 --> 07:53.910\n上不去了所以它要有一個區域的微型的智慧型電腦那如果大家都會使用電動車的時候那我們電廠的需求自然會降低是的所以這個部分要超前部署來研擬我已經請教過能源署請教過台電請教過建築研究所\n\n07:54.631 --> 08:18.457\n他們說呢這些涉及到跨部會可能不是工程會必須是曾經的政務委員出面來協調主委可以評估一下嗎我最後結論兩件事情請延熙延逸公共工程及關鍵基礎設施的施工的工程採購落實防篤中國滲透切之破壞的方案我不要寫一個月啦請提一個書面報告你們要跟國安單位好好來研究第二個請政委呢出面來協調\n\n08:19.557 --> 08:28.571\n公有建築構築停車設施納維虛擬電廠相關規範以及率先施行的方案這個部分也請你們來研議我不定時間可以嗎好謝謝主委謝謝好謝謝我們\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.019,"end":4.9,"text":"誰是台灣國家安全的最大威脅"},{"start":27.932,"end":45.558,"text":"最近總統是不是又講了我們看下一頁國家安全我們如果說國家安全我們只有一個威脅最大就是來自對岸對台灣的不友善的政策很好總統說定義中國是境外敵對勢力提出了五大威脅要因應的十七項的策略工程會怎麼因應"},{"start":48.098,"end":67.658,"text":"還在想 來先告訴你速發部早就因應了限制使用危害國家資通安全的產品它在109年的12月就已經對於採購大陸品牌的資通安全設備服務軟體硬體都包含在內好 可是這裡面還包括了什麼不是只是單純的通訊設備喔施工機具裡面也有啊"},{"start":68.419,"end":82.474,"text":"工程營造的國營社裡面也有啊關鍵基礎設施 航港 航空港口都有工程會要怎麼落實這些 呈現在包括了基民的關鍵基礎設施裡面的工程服務啦 設備採購 你怎麼做"},{"start":84.554,"end":106.091,"text":"我想跟委員報告 關於這個中資或中國在台灣成立的公司等等這個原本的採購法或相關的規定都已經有很明確的準則跟辦法好 告訴你 不夠這個在去年5月有就說港口陳柏安破口關鍵就是設施要檢核治安 那時候有一個叫做建華重工"},{"start":106.832,"end":133.27,"text":"起重機港口的起重機它是中國製的最重要是裡面的晶片所以後來港務公司他說根據相關的工業控制系統依照這個相關的基準去進行資安集合資安署也說了以後他們為了勞工的職業安全他們對於這些重機具的補助也排除了中國製造很好那麼您知道國土辦認為除了這兩個部門之外還有哪個部門要做嗎"},{"start":136.912,"end":162.948,"text":"他說請工程會研修工程採購契約範本這裡面提到說國營工單位公共工程及軍事單位全面禁止中國製機具進廠施作不是採購連施作都不可以喔以保障自通安全那麼這裡面他認為說要做到這一點的話工程會要適時的研修工程採購的契約範本我講的是維修工程跟營造工程什麼時候做了研修了沒有"},{"start":165.975,"end":168.41,"text":"趕快回答 時間把握我請祖密來回答"},{"start":170.404,"end":196.331,"text":"跟委員報告 有關這個部分我們草案已經草擬了 我們兩週以內發布兩週以內 好 很好 主委有進度了 我們看一看所以涉及國家安全的採購標準如何認定這是台電的兩個電廠一個他們寫說本採購是涉及國家安全他自己填什麼 沒有另外一個台電新拿發電廠他說是否涉及國家安全 他說是是或不是都是台電自己說的算數嗎主委 可以這樣子嗎"},{"start":198.075,"end":220.408,"text":"有沒有認定標準這就是你們的問題啦你們基本上工程會沒辦法管到那麼多雖然你們等於要求各單位自行竊竊自行檢核但是這個檢核禁不起其他第三方的集合這是工程會要去把關趕快把這個機制建立起來可以嗎 主委跟我們報告是否涉及國家安全是一個概念"},{"start":220.768,"end":248.155,"text":"是 那我們工程會的採購的規定應該有比較具體的比方說是中資或者是公司這樣子的話採購機關才能夠有能夠培訓那如果說有沒有涉及國家安全不然他的上級機關他的主管機關您回去請台電查一查說明這兩件為什麼一件事一件火查清楚再回答可以嗎好好往下看所以呢工程會要這邊怎麼樣你們什麼時候完成"},{"start":248.855,"end":263.006,"text":"據敏感性含資安疑慮的業務範疇及涉及公安權的判定標準它的稽查程序資訊進入範圍公共工程及基礎關鍵設施的施工採購包括它的採購跟服務維修如何防篤中國的滲透竊資跟破壞可以去研擬嗎"},{"start":264.551,"end":287.159,"text":"我們也跟各機關都有互相在討論包括國安單位包括其他單位那麼他碰到問題的時候我們也會再補強相關的規定希望主委積極一點我私下也請過不同單位包括我們工程會來都是說說而已沒有具體進度剛剛很開心聽到兩週內可以看得到我希望後續的具體進度讓本席知道可以嗎"},{"start":289.039,"end":314.458,"text":"但是這個跟委員報告如果說一個概念性的東西應該要比較明確的給我多一點時間去跟其他機關來討論啦所以是立委您的工作重點之一囉有沒有涉及國安這件事情工程會沒辦法單獨認定當然我們只可以認定他採購的對象或採購的這個希望你們配合把這個標準明定出來可以嗎"},{"start":324.564,"end":340.711,"text":"跟委員報告就是說目前當然譬如說是基礎關鍵的設施啊那麼有相關的機關去認定嘛但是在某一些設備裡面到底他屬不屬於涉及到國安呢坦白講並不是工程會好我靠你一提啦維修廠的廠商的他的設備進場去維修要不要檢查"},{"start":342.947,"end":370.998,"text":"港口的洗重機已經禁止中資的了或者他中資裡面他說裡面沒有設晶片我進去維修我把晶片放上去你查得到嗎這包括服務採購都包括在內不是只有工程採購啊這部門會在工程採購企業裡面去規範但是我的意思是說到底哪一些設備哪一些機具會夾在這些東西的話因為並不是工程會的專業是的那我們當然可以會同其他單位來稍微做一個理解但是最後回歸到工程會給各機關一個準據好嗎"},{"start":372.699,"end":392.418,"text":"是好謝謝主委來我們趕快後面一題趕快進行我之前上週才在問建築內設充電樁的爭議租屋大樓啊有電動車的擔心這充電樁會有公安權危險但是呢電動車主認為說沒有充電樁我幹嘛買你的租屋大樓這是一個題目但是其實主委要看一下電動車它其實會移動的儲能設施啊"},{"start":394.62,"end":418.67,"text":"其實呢電動車行駛的時間遠少於靜止時間靜止時間它停在大樓裡面就是一個儲能設施可以供應什麼請看下一頁它可以供應一個虛擬電廠的需求所以現在呢公有建築物的停車設施應該超前部署去思考不是只處理一個住戶大樓的充電狀的設置而已因為公有建築配合上固定型的光電停下的電動車加上EMS系統"},{"start":420.751,"end":437.496,"text":"它才會有儲能設施就會成為台電它在分散尖峰離峰設施的一個規範那這個規範呢有很多單位包括台電包括經濟部請問這麼多單位包括內政部包括國土署包括建築研究所包括交通部主委您身兼政委這幾個部會是不是您在協調"},{"start":438.897,"end":454.885,"text":"能源的部分不是我督導不過我可以對委員的高見非常佩服啦電動車當然是一個微型的儲能的機制但是呢台電必須配合有智慧型的微電網是的你如果全國性的電網這個電動車作為儲能是沒辦法"},{"start":458.695,"end":473.91,"text":"上不去了所以它要有一個區域的微型的智慧型電腦那如果大家都會使用電動車的時候那我們電廠的需求自然會降低是的所以這個部分要超前部署來研擬我已經請教過能源署請教過台電請教過建築研究所"},{"start":474.631,"end":498.457,"text":"他們說呢 這些涉及到跨部會可能不是工程會 必須是曾經的政務委員出面來協調主委可以評估一下嗎 我最後結論兩件事情 請延熙 延逸公共工程及關鍵基礎設施的施工的工程採購落實防篤中國滲透 切之破壞的方案我不要寫一個月啦 請提一個書面報告你們要跟國安單位好好來研究第二個 請政委呢 出面來協調"},{"start":499.557,"end":508.571,"text":"公有建築構築停車設施納維虛擬電廠相關規範以及率先施行的方案這個部分也請你們來研議我不定時間可以嗎好謝謝主委謝謝好謝謝我們"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":742,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時4分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請陳主任委員。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好。我就儘快的開始進行，標題就請你看一下，我先請教主委，誰是臺灣國家安全的最大威脅？最近總統是不是有講了？"],["陳主任委員金德：如果說國家安全，我們只有一個威脅最大的就是來自對岸對臺灣不友善的政策。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好！總統定義中國是境外敵對勢力，針對當前的五大威脅提出17項因應策略，請問工程會怎麼因應？還在想？來，我先告訴你，數發部早就因應了，限制使用危害國家資通安全的產品，他們在109年12月就已經禁止使用及採購大陸品牌的資通安全設備，服務、軟體、硬體都包含在內，這裡面還包括了什麼？不只是單純的通訊設備，施工機具裡面也有，工程營造的國營事業裡面也有，關鍵基礎設施、航空港口都有，請問工程會要怎麼落實這些沉潛在包括了機敏關鍵基礎設施裡面的工程服務、設備採購？你怎麼做？"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，關於中資或中國在臺灣成立的公司等等，原本的採購法或相關規定都已經有很明確的準則跟辦法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我告訴你，不夠！去年5月我就說過，港口成國安破口，關基礎設施應該要檢核資安，那時候有一個叫做振華重工，港口的起重機是中國製的，最重要是裡面的晶片，所以後來港務公司說，實際稽核標準是相關工業控制系統，並依照相關的基準去進行資安稽核。職安署也說，以後他們為了勞工的職業安全，對於這些重機具的補助將排除中國製造。很好！您知道國土辦認為除了這兩個部門之外，還有哪個部門要做嗎？他說請工程會研修工程採購契約範本，這裡面提到國營單位、公共工程及軍事單位，全面禁止中國製機具進場施作，不只是採購，連施作都不可以，以保障資通安全。他認為要做到這點的話，工程會要適時的研修工程採購契約範本。我講的是維修工程跟營造工程，什麼時候做？研修了沒有？趕快回答，時間……"],["陳主任委員金德：我請主秘來回答。"],["羅主任秘書天健：跟委員報告，有關這個部分，我們草案已經草擬了，我們兩週以內發布。"],["鍾委員佳濱：兩週以內？很好！主委，有進度了。","主委，我們來看一下涉及國家安全的採購標準如何認定？螢幕上的是台電兩個電廠的採購相關資料，在採購資料中有關「本採購是否屬『涉及國家安全』採購」的部分，台電協和發電廠自己填「否」，台電興達發電廠則填「是」，是或不是都是台電自己說了算數嗎？主委，可以這樣子嗎？有沒有認定標準？"],["陳主任委員金德：呃……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這就是你們的問題啦！基本上工程會沒辦法管到那麼多，所以你們等於是要求各單位自行切結、自行檢核，但是這個檢核禁不起其他第三方的稽核，這是工程會要去把關的，請趕快把這個機制建立起來，可以嗎？主委？"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，是否涉及國家安全是一個概念，我們工程會的採購規定應該有比較具體的，比方說是中資或者是公司，這樣的話採購機關才能夠遵循……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的！"],["陳主任委員金德：如果說有沒有涉及國家安全，不然它的上級機關、它的主管機關要……"],["鍾委員佳濱：您回去請台電查一查，說明這兩件為什麼一件「是」、一件「否」，查清楚再回答，可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我們再往下看，所以工程會這邊要怎麼樣？主委，你們什麼時候完成「具敏感性或國安（含資安）疑慮之業務範疇」及「涉及國家安全」判定標準？其稽查程序、資訊揭露範圍？公共工程及關鍵基礎設施工程採購（含採購、服務、維修），如何落實防杜中國滲透、竊資及破壞？這個可以去研擬嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個我們跟各機關都有互相在討論，包括國安單位，包括其他單位，他們碰到問題的時候，我們也會來補強相關的規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：希望主委積極一點，我私下也請過不同單位過來，包括我們工程會，都是說說而已，沒有具體的進度，剛剛很開心聽到兩週內可以看得到，我希望後續的具體進度讓本席知道，可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：但是這個跟委員報告，如果說一個概念性的東西，應該要比較明確的，給我們多一點時間去跟其他機關來討論啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以是列為您的工作重點之一囉？"],["陳主任委員金德：有沒有涉及國安這件事情，工程會沒辦法單獨認定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們只可以認定他採購的對象或採購的這個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：希望你們配合把這個標準明定出來，可以嗎？不然採購機關怎麼知道要怎麼配合？"],["陳主任委員金德：我請副主委來說明。"],["鍾委員佳濱：時間有限。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：跟委員報告，目前譬如說關鍵基礎設施有相關的機關去認定，但是在某一些設備裡面，到底它屬不屬於涉及到國安，坦白講，並不是工程會……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我考你一題啦，維修廠廠商的設備進廠去維修要不要檢查？港口的起重機已經禁止中資的了，或者說中資裡面，他說裡面沒有設晶片，我進去維修，我把晶片放上去，你查得到嗎？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：這種……"],["鍾委員佳濱：連服務採購都包括在內。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：是、是、是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是只有工程採購。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：這部分我們會在工程採購契約裡面去規範，但是我的意思是說，到底哪一些設備、哪一些機具會夾帶這些東西？因為這並不是工程會的專業。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：我們當然可以會同其他單位來稍微做一個釐清。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是最後要回歸到工程會給各機關一個準據，好嗎？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝副主委，我們趕快進行後面一題。我上週才在問關於建築內設充電樁的爭議，住戶大樓有電動車的話，擔心設充電樁會有公共安全危險，但是電動車主認為沒有充電樁的話，我幹嘛買你的住戶大樓？這是一個題目，但是主委要看一下，電動車是會移動的儲能設施，其實電動車行駛的時間遠少於靜止時間，而靜止時間它停在大樓裡面就是一個儲能設施，可以供應什麼？它可以供應一個虛擬電廠的需求，所以現在公有建築物的停車設施應該超前部署去思考，不是只處理一個住戶大樓的充電樁設施而已，因為公有建築配合屋頂型光電，停下來的電動車加上EMS系統，它成為儲能設施就會成為台電在分散尖峰、離峰設施的一個規範，這個規範有很多單位，包括台電、包括經濟部、包括內政部、包括國土署、包括建築研究所、包括交通部這麼多單位，主委，您身兼政委，這幾個部會是不是您在協調？"],["陳主任委員金德：能源的部分不是我督導，不過對委員的高見非常佩服。電動車當然是一個微型的儲能機制，但是台電必須配合智慧型的微電網，如果全國性的電網，電動車作為儲能是送不上去的，所以要有一個區域的、微型的智慧型電網，如果大家都使用電動車的時候，那我們電廠的需求自然會降低。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以這個部分要超前部署來研擬，我已經請教過能源署、請教過台電、請教過建築研究所，他們說這些涉及到跨部會，可能不是工程會，必須是陳金德政務委員出面來協調，主委可以評估一下嗎？我最後的結論有兩件事情：請研議「公共工程及關鍵基礎設施工程採購，落實防杜中國滲透、竊資、破壞」之方案，我不要寫一個月啦，請提出一個書面報告，你們要跟國安單位好好來研究。第二個，請政委出面來協調「公有建築構築停車設施納為虛擬電廠之相關規範及率先施行方案」，這個部分也請你們來研議，我不訂時間，可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝我們鍾佳濱委員。接下來請游顥委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":222,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-3","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","黃健豪","林俊憲","蔡其昌","廖先翔","徐富癸","許智傑","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","陳俊宇","張啓楷","陳冠廷"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00014"}}}