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\"當然一定要展現我們對農民關懷的溫暖給他們一點寬容這個一定要出來而且從人性的這個角度來關懷農民關懷漁民這個一定要統領下去所有的同仁一定要這樣做到拜託院長了也拜託部長那接下來我因為時間也剩不多我想要問一下部長有關於我們斗六這個鐵路高架化\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 1505.516, \"end\": 1505.656, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1505.656, \"end\": 1505.736, \"score\": 0.742}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 1505.736, \"end\": 1505.856, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1505.856, \"end\": 1506.037, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"展\", \"start\": 1506.037, \"end\": 1506.917, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1506.917, \"end\": 1507.477, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 1507.477, \"end\": 1508.418, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"懷\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1508.418, \"end\": 1508.898, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"溫\"}, {\"word\": \"暖\", \"start\": 1508.898, \"end\": 1509.379, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, 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\"了\", \"start\": 1520.346, \"end\": 1520.526, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 1520.526, \"end\": 1520.686, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"拜\", \"start\": 1520.686, \"end\": 1521.026, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"託\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1521.026, \"end\": 1521.867, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1521.867, \"end\": 1522.207, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 1522.207, \"end\": 1522.387, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 1522.387, \"end\": 1522.967, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1522.967, \"end\": 1523.648, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 1523.648, \"end\": 1524.268, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 1524.268, \"end\": 1524.408, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"剩\", \"start\": 1524.408, \"end\": 1524.629, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1524.629, \"end\": 1524.789, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 1524.789, \"end\": 1525.369, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1525.369, \"end\": 1525.529, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 1525.529, \"end\": 1525.669, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1525.669, \"end\": 1525.989, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1525.989, \"end\": 1526.089, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 1526.089, \"end\": 1526.35, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1526.35, \"end\": 1526.97, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1526.97, \"end\": 1527.35, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 1527.35, \"end\": 1527.57, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1527.57, \"end\": 1527.951, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"斗\", \"start\": 1527.951, \"end\": 1528.171, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"六\", \"start\": 1528.171, \"end\": 1528.291, 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\"目前的程序上面其實您剛剛所說的都是正確那現在因為他這個路線不佳跟重波不佳的原因我們還在做研究當中因為重波不佳會影響到未來的整體的安全性還有就是他整個爬坡的那個耗損性那這個部分其實會是長期的影響我們希望把這個問題先解決完之後我們再進入下一個步驟當然我知道委員\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 1610.772, \"end\": 1610.912, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 1610.912, \"end\": 1611.012, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1611.012, \"end\": 1611.112, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 1611.112, \"end\": 1611.293, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"序\", \"start\": 1611.293, \"end\": 1611.493, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 1611.493, \"end\": 1611.713, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 1611.713, \"end\": 1611.913, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 1611.913, \"end\": 1612.153, \"score\": 0.755}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 1612.153, \"end\": 1612.573, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1612.573, \"end\": 1612.914, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": 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1648.568, \"end\": 1675.38, \"text\": \"根據了解本案內環橋路段設計的坡度是千分之十四點八七然後完全符合你這個交通部鐵道局軌道工程設計的注意事項規定的最大坡度不得超過千分之二十五那這個整個本案的線型調整跟設計早就跟台鐵公司充分協商並取得同意符合這個專業標準\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"根\", \"start\": 1648.568, \"end\": 1648.948, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 1648.948, \"end\": 1649.188, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 1649.188, \"end\": 1649.449, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 1649.449, \"end\": 1649.689, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 1649.689, \"end\": 1651.169, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"環\"}, {\"word\": \"橋\"}, {\"word\": \"路\", \"start\": 1651.169, \"end\": 1651.449, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"段\", \"start\": 1651.449, \"end\": 1652.31, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1652.31, \"end\": 1652.45, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"坡\", \"start\": 1652.45, \"end\": 1652.67, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 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\"長\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1834.173, \"end\": 1836.096, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"備\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 1836.096, \"end\": 1836.236, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 1836.236, \"end\": 1836.898, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1836.898, \"end\": 1837.699, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"登\", \"start\": 1837.699, \"end\": 1837.719, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"記\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,137 --> 00:00:08,798\n院長我想請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢各位好\n\n2\n00:00:20,657 --> 00:00:48,259\n主委院長早安那我想喔大家的問題喔真的是非常的多那其實大家的這個初衷喔都是希望說我們台灣能夠更好我們的民生喔能夠更穩定那我想要請教院長啊就是近期喔在這個報紙上面喔傳的這個新聞媒體上面傳的沸沸揚揚的這個非綠賓購買綠電這一件事情喔不曉得部長有沒有跟您\n\n3\n00:00:50,024 --> 00:00:51,653\n這個報告過他的評估的結果\n\n4\n00:00:53,263 --> 00:01:21,337\n在歷次的會議當中有碰觸到這些個問題部長也有他的想法但一切都是在還要取得更多的這個雙方的合作或者意願那現在來看目前這個事情還不到一個最成熟的階段請部長說明所以可以請教院長報告委員我想這件事情呢等等等等我要請教院長我要請教院長院長請問這是您支持的嗎這個方向您是支持的嗎\n\n5\n00:01:21,997 --> 00:01:38,753\n如果我們可以從任何的地方方式取得成本足以我們負擔而且國內需求的所有的能源不管從什麼方向什麼地方什麼方式都是我們在嘗試的方向之一\n\n6\n00:01:39,153 --> 00:02:05,315\n那我是不是來跟院長說一下第一就是去年十月在部長提出這個菲律賓重電的想法之後呢其實外界是多有批評但是近日看經濟部的這個台菲電力合作評估報告的結果顯示第一呢短期內是沒有辦法蓋海底電纜的那要用電池船運回來每度電要5.5元\n\n7\n00:02:07,116 --> 00:02:31,876\n那長期要建設這個呂宋海峽的電纜能源署自己都說現階段而言呢不管是成本、技術、法規面都有待克服那更存在著這個地緣政治的風險那這明明代表像菲律賓購買綠電是有風險的然而昨天經濟部自己發了一個新聞稿\n\n8\n00:02:33,337 --> 00:02:55,192\n結論就是在菲律賓蓋電廠是具有可行性的那目標價是4塊錢所以4塊錢是您所說的合理的電價嗎部長說明報告委員4塊錢是我說的我們大概高於4塊錢就向外部買這個綠電是沒有意義的\n\n9\n00:02:56,775 --> 00:03:15,062\n所以我們在評估這份報告是在做可行性評估也就是說要進行這件事情我們必須要先了解是否可行所以你意思就是說現在估計每度電要5.5元就是不可行的意思囉不是喔\n\n10\n00:03:16,562 --> 00:03:35,969\n他們所引述的資料是日本現在的船載的這些儲能櫃所送的電的容量算出來一度電需要五塊五毛錢但是五塊五是你不能接受的當然不能接受那個是指日本\n\n11\n00:03:40,231 --> 00:03:58,726\n然後現行因為現在只有日本這樣的一個例可以來做評估但是實際上以我們所了解的程度以我們現在所評估的程度在兩年以後這個成本會大幅下降到四分之一\n\n12\n00:03:59,975 --> 00:04:24,120\n所以這個是符合我們在評估的部分我現在比較擔心的是說這個是不是先畫標靶然後再設建就是說你明明就已經決定一定要去菲律賓買綠墊了所以你才訂了這個目標價還是像卓院長講的說只要是合理的價錢不管來自哪裡你都會買\n\n13\n00:04:27,122 --> 00:04:46,862\n是這樣嗎?你是說是你目標一定要這樣做嗎?你說這個菲律賓,我是菲律賓協議我們最近...政府過去花了數千億投入這個綠能,結果我們台灣現在還要向菲律賓買綠電,然後這次是代表我們的能源政策失敗呢?\n\n14\n00:04:47,483 --> 00:05:15,024\n就台灣不是一直在強調能源轉型呢怎麼會轉到最後我們連自己的電都不夠還要去向菲律賓買電然後一直在想說能源要自主結果現在我們朝向進口電力這不是自相矛盾嗎不是現在的區域經濟學非常明確的告訴我們每一個國家它的要素餅富是不一樣的\n\n15\n00:05:16,352 --> 00:05:28,178\n這個經濟學只要懂的人都非常清楚這個是一個很明顯的自相矛盾之外難道台灣的企業未來還得靠等船運來才能用電\n\n16\n00:05:29,707 --> 00:05:47,589\n菲律賓本身它就是一個電網不穩定的國家常常發生停電台灣的能源安全卻要去依賴它部長你能夠保證這起交易不會成為下一個危機嗎你所談的這一個部分是目前的現象\n\n17\n00:05:48,530 --> 00:06:01,137\n我們經過可行性評估了解以後為什麼他電會那麼貴是他的電網費用非常的高但是至於他的這個深層的你是台灣的經濟部長不是菲律賓的經濟部長你不需要為菲律賓的這個電價現狀來做說明那我只想問不只是院長部長\n\n18\n00:06:11,602 --> 00:06:25,626\n其實全世界各國,包括日本、韓國、歐洲,都在重啟核電,那來確保能源穩定的時候,台灣卻寧可向菲律賓買綠電用船運來,也不願意討論核能,這樣子是為什麼呢?\n\n19\n00:06:31,407 --> 00:06:56,176\n官委員報告這不是台灣寧可剛剛部長也說明了這是一個可行性的評估評估的內容包括很多種包括這個方式是否可行成本是否可行國內是否需要還有沒有其他的替代方式這個都在評估的過程所以這是一個過程當中我們認為很多的來源很多的方式都足以拿出來討論委員你如果認為有新的核能技術\n\n20\n00:06:57,156 --> 00:07:20,814\n可以讓台灣沒有核安的問題沒有核廢料的處理我們都可以來討論是我覺得院長這樣子回答就相當理性但我必須要講就是說在部長發這麼多的時間金錢在評估菲律賓的綠電用船運來這件事的同時他是不是也要像院長講的一樣去同時可行性評估\n\n21\n00:07:24,957 --> 00:07:25,598\n報告委員這些我們都有在評估\n\n22\n00:07:43,833 --> 00:08:02,344\n評估的進度為何為什麼到目前都沒有聽說我們只是一味的聽到說菲律賓買綠電我們怎麼都沒有看到經濟部有這個新聞稿對外說我們現在對於重啟核能的進度或者是研發這個新的核電技術的報告都沒有\n\n23\n00:08:03,164 --> 00:08:26,266\n這個都是我們平常的業務啦也就是說我們是多元的電力的這個必須要使用多元電力的國家所以您剛才所談的這個部分我們當然是都有在這個研討所以你可以看得出來我們雖然已經shutdown了這個核電廠的人力但是我們人力都沒有變喔\n\n24\n00:08:28,747 --> 00:08:49,595\n我想這個電價的問題可能院長跟部長都已經被問到滾瓜爛熟了但我還是必須再問一次就是請問我們台灣的核能發電一度電是多少以目前他因為大部分的折救已經折完了所以他的一度電大概是在接近兩塊錢\n\n25\n00:08:51,683 --> 00:09:00,689\n1.4塊所以我就想要代表民眾問院長跟部長我們台灣放著一度電1.4塊的電不用我們要用4塊、5塊、6塊、7塊、8塊甚至一度買11.1塊的電\n\n26\n00:09:10,199 --> 00:09:21,773\n我們現在不是不用而是說我剛才講的三個前提在前面請問今年是不是要再漲電價是不是要再漲電價\n\n27\n00:09:28,851 --> 00:09:39,264\n店家當然是店家審議委員會啊那店家審議委員會開會的時候他也會收集各方的資料包括社會包括民生也包括台電的財務狀況那這個就是他們去討論的內容\n\n28\n00:09:43,070 --> 00:10:00,230\n這就是本席想要問院長的院長您知道台電現在的財務狀況嗎你知道他目前虧損多少錢嗎幾乎到達4300億左右了沒錯4229億就代表說就算我們今年再撥補那1000億\n\n29\n00:10:01,892 --> 00:10:28,164\n台電還是虧損啊所以為什麼會覺得說我們三年撥補了他三千億假設今年再撥補他一千億四千億也彌補不了他的虧損甚至還要漲電價所以我想強調兩點第一台電並沒有因為政府撥補就不漲電價第二台電並沒有因為政府撥補或漲電價就停止虧損院長\n\n30\n00:10:32,038 --> 00:10:34,465\n台電不虧損的原因大家都知道\n\n31\n00:10:36,202 --> 00:11:04,861\n戰爭的原因有料上漲補貼的政策這個我們不需要重複了那我們1000億的撥補不是要讓他的解決他的財務問題只是讓他的財務能夠健全一點他少支出一些資本的成本利息能夠減輕一些那麼讓他能夠減輕這方面的負擔那麼就不需要去考慮調整或是調整太大幅度的各項電費是做這樣的平衡而已那如果反過來想\n\n32\n00:11:08,805 --> 00:11:20,516\n你怎麼不支一千億撥補民眾來付漲的電價呢意思是一樣的嘛因為這筆錢都要到台電啊但是感覺不一樣啊\n\n33\n00:11:22,362 --> 00:11:36,521\n電表不一定每個人都背在身上有的有用到電有的就沒有用到電表雖然每個人都會用到電但電表不一定那我們怎麼去計算對這個人他如果沒有再付電費的時候他就沒有收到錢是我理解但是呢\n\n34\n00:11:37,182 --> 00:11:49,219\n我必須要講現在有很多消息都傳出說這個電價審議委員會這一次這一次這就是我在講的說雖然部長院長都說這個電價審議委員會會決定可是其實呢\n\n35\n00:11:53,405 --> 00:12:22,700\n政府還是有決策的這個角色那大家這個小道消息都傳出來說可能連330度以下的民生用電跟小商家的用電都會調漲那用電大戶可能會漲更多那現在所有的百姓所有的這些民眾大家都在關注所以院長是否可以借今天告訴大家說這次漲電價是否勢在必行\n\n36\n00:12:23,140 --> 00:12:49,345\n那漲幅有可能在什麼樣的range之內我們還是考慮到它的成本的反應市場的穩定還有民生的穩定還有能夠使用者付費還要提倡節約能源這幾項原則底下那目前你說的那個多少度數以上以下如何調整至少我這裡還沒有看到現在送來的任何報告所以我們也沒有任何的討論\n\n37\n00:12:51,819 --> 00:13:05,068\n目前其實全面漲電價央行就已經說了會造成今年的CPI會破2%的警戒線聽說院長也指示經濟部也要討論水費調漲的方案民眾要面臨的已經不是電價可能會漲可能水費也要漲這等於是水電雙漲\n\n38\n00:13:20,738 --> 00:13:34,411\n院長您有考慮過這對一般小家庭的衝擊嗎當然所以我們很慎重因為水價幾乎是30年沒有調30年沒有調過那現在這個水價是非常的低的\n\n39\n00:13:35,572 --> 00:13:53,303\n也一方面要鼓勵大家能夠節約珍惜這個水資源那也要反映現在每一度水處理的成本那合理的調整是在考慮當中但時機是還沒有決定我們當然希望能夠降低衝擊能夠平衡一點在整個年度當中不要\n\n40\n00:13:57,166 --> 00:14:13,934\n這就是本席想要提醒院長的真的水電雙長的話對於一般小家庭的衝擊太大了一定要去考量說苦民所苦啊他們的一般的生活已經很辛苦了水電雙長那是整個打到腦門子上\n\n41\n00:14:16,095 --> 00:14:38,460\n非常非常的嚴重那另外我也想提醒一下郭部長郭部長我當然知道你有很多雄心壯志但是你知道水電衝擊衝擊的可能不只是民眾還有可能是你個人因為通常有一些慣例就是年終有可能會換隔園有可能會異動那調整這些民生費用可能會變成\n\n42\n00:14:40,100 --> 00:15:07,591\n你要扛下來的責任也有可能是要替換這個格緣的原因所以呢我也希望說這件事情搞不好也會變成你畢業的理由那我當然提醒你啦這個人民最關心的倒不是誰來當官而是自己的生活開銷會不會因此而提高那我在這裡也希望說當然我們政府\n\n43\n00:15:08,231 --> 00:15:35,457\n能夠提供企業穩定用電然後民眾合理的電價讓我們國家在競爭力上面尤其你看我們的最大的這個可能競爭對手韓國他都宣布說在2038年之前他要再蓋四座核能發電廠那我們未來的競爭力在哪裡我們不是還要發展AI嗎我們不是還要發展更多的晶圓廠嗎那電力來源到底在哪裡\n\n44\n00:15:38,891 --> 00:15:53,399\n跟委員報告這個我們會非常審慎的來觀察民生的穩定我個人認為郭部長我不期待他只是一位水電部長他是掌握國家經濟發展的經濟部長這個才是他的正職\n\n45\n00:15:54,861 --> 00:16:19,577\n我們共同期待啊但我必須要提醒說假設在重啟核能或者是研發新的這個核電技術上那政府如果消極的話立法院就要積極核管法的修正喔從上個會期就在討論那未來修正通過之後我們就可以跟國際接軌讓核電研議喔那我也希望說這個部分喔院長能夠大力的支持\n\n46\n00:16:21,872 --> 00:16:38,630\n院長能夠支持嗎如果立法院修正通過之後行政院是不是還要再提復議我再說說明只要是合乎憲法的規定而且經過充分的討論民主的程序我也來自立法院對立法院的尊重\n\n47\n00:16:39,431 --> 00:17:02,119\n我跟歷任的院長都一樣好謝謝院長那我接下來想要問有關於這個農業部針對農保資格大規模清查的這件事情不曉得院長知不知道這個農業部最近在清查這個農保資格是這好像他們的一般的業務之一嘛請部長說明\n\n48\n00:17:02,859 --> 00:17:28,458\n我跟委員報告這次農保清查不是說第一次我們持續都有清查然後是根據監察院審計部要求來清查有關於天然災害領埔的跟農保地的差異所以你農業部並沒有主動想要清查的意思是嗎都是別人逼你的意思嗎我們的清查就是例行上都有清查因為農保就是一種從事農業工作的在職的社會保護\n\n49\n00:17:29,318 --> 00:17:51,563\n所以現在其實呢您開始清查之後讓基層的農民可以說是人心惶惶大家都非常的害怕部分農民可能面臨失去農保資格的風險那他一生耕耘那麼認真那麼辛苦風雨無阻地種植糧食然後養活這麼多的人民結果今天\n\n50\n00:17:52,603 --> 00:18:04,528\n可能他們年老體衰因為配合很多政府的政策被告知說你不再是農民了你的農保資格取消了請問部長你覺得這樣對得起為台灣農業奉獻一輩子的農民嗎我要跟委員報告就是我們這次的清查是在65歲以下的我們並沒有針對65歲以上的農民來做清查\n\n51\n00:18:18,894 --> 00:18:38,414\n另外一個方式就是65歲以上的農民他即使把地租出去他的農保地不需要到一分地所以這個完全沒有問題我不是不知道但是你要想假設是65歲以前那更可憐\n\n52\n00:18:40,267 --> 00:18:56,633\n那就代表說他以後可能領不到老農年金了他就不符合老農年金的資格了那影響不是比你清查65歲以下的還大嗎我要跟委員說明他如果沒有農地他就沒有從事農業當初他們配合政府政策說你把電租出給這個光電業者\n\n53\n00:19:04,116 --> 00:19:27,771\n或者您每天在講的一期二轉三加三裡面是不是鼓勵小地主把地都租給大電農這個部分怎麼辦我要跟委員說明漁電共生一個非常重要的前提就是以農為本綠能是加值的所以他還是要從事農業我不是說我不是只有針對農漁電共生我是針對整體的綠能政策嘛那這個部分\n\n54\n00:19:33,715 --> 00:19:42,227\n很多農民也許住在台北或都市的百姓會覺得哇你農民怎麼這麼貪心啊你又要租金然後你又要這個保險\n\n55\n00:19:43,891 --> 00:20:07,450\n他們真的不是貪心他們是真的不知道他們的權益受損我希望部長能夠站在這些農民的角色其實呢我真的是對事不對人啊我也知道說部長是一個很認真的這個工作在這個很認真的官員可是呢我必須要講你不能整天\n\n56\n00:20:08,271 --> 00:20:34,091\n把你的精神都用在跟立法委員打嘴狗都用在跟立法委員爭辯我們提出的這個需求是真的來自地方基層他們需要我不是希望說我今天鬥嘴贏過你我也不是希望說今天政治鬥爭我能贏過你我是希望說你要站在他們的立場\n\n57\n00:20:35,452 --> 00:21:00,289\n來幫助他們啊幫助這些農民啊否則這些農民我告訴你他接到公文他真的是跑到農會去問我跟你說那是晴天霹靂他欲哭無淚那這些真的無助的農民院長你覺得他應該怎麼辦呢我跟委員說沒有沒有我問院長院長這些無助的農民怎麼辦農委會沒有要backup他們農委會沒有要支持他們現行的政策是你土地農民的土地\n\n58\n00:21:00,993 --> 00:21:18,524\n出租給業者進行光電的合作只要他還有從事農業的生產是不會影響到任何農民的權益但你如果完全都把它放棄了跟我們現在的政策是有所不符那我必須在這裡跟這個院長還有部長講其實呢\n\n59\n00:21:22,472 --> 00:21:43,630\n我不知道是不是農業部裡面有一些官員說實在是相當的冷血有很多農會幫這些農民在陳情、在說明的時候你知道嗎?我只是不希望今天把它秀出來我覺得實在是太心酸了\n\n60\n00:21:45,618 --> 00:22:02,971\n那個計政就直接跟那個農會講啊他說他都已經可以領老農年金了他沒有領上上補助費反正他死了也領不到這種話說得出口你覺得這有把農民放在心上嗎說這種話的官員如果是有官員說這種話是不對的我想我們會針對\n\n61\n00:22:04,512 --> 00:22:32,176\n這些可能的這些有疑慮的我們會逐一的去了解而且能夠幫忙他確保農保的身份這是第一要件所以他未來是一定是一個個案的實際的去審查是所以部長我真心的在這裡呼籲你真的放下那些政治鬥爭的心放下那些只想要到罪過的心我們一起來為農民爭取他們的權益守護他們你做得到嗎\n\n62\n00:22:32,836 --> 00:22:47,450\n我想我覺得做得到如果很多外界的那個批評是真實的我們一定虛心接受如果它是一個錯假的話我們一定會做一個澄清各位我們在農漁的合作上面我始終強調農漁優先農漁優先\n\n63\n00:22:51,997 --> 00:23:06,605\n官員有沒有剛剛委員有講的那一段話我們要告訴官員講這段話是不對的是要告訴官員不可以講這種的話嚴厲的要求農業優先是政府永遠不變的定律\n\n64\n00:23:07,445 --> 00:23:24,841\n謝謝因為真的他們是非常弱勢的一名他們根本是沒有辦法去理解他們的權益在哪裡他們失去了他們權益他們也求助無門所以今天我必須代表農漁民在這裡轉達他們的心聲幫他們澄清那我也在這裡懇求院長漁店農店\n\n65\n00:23:29,059 --> 00:23:56,141\n一定要動漲假設今年再漲店家的話我們農業的用電漁業的用電一定要比照去年喔繼續動漲可不可以拜託院長因為很多大企業說實在你漲店家你只是傷他的皮膚你只是傷他的皮毛可是如果你漲我們農業的用電你漲我們漁業的用電我們有很多農家子弟很多農民的下一代他可能下個學期他就繳不起學費了今年\n\n66\n00:23:58,806 --> 00:24:12,350\n如何會不會漲還是電價審議委員會但是過去有漲農業部我們都有電價補貼可以讓他的負擔減輕很多我跟委員報告就是就算電價有槓農業部會針對這個差價的部分做補貼這樣以今年來講我們就補貼了25億\n\n67\n00:24:17,594 --> 00:24:41,663\n是謝謝那我再一次呼籲希望說這個農保的審查能夠放寬能夠真的搞不好可以重新再怎麼樣來調整讓這些可能受到傷害或者是有危險的就是有風險的有失去農保風險的這些農民可以有補健的機會有補救的機會這一點部長可以承諾嗎\n\n68\n00:24:42,403 --> 00:25:04,035\n我們一直在這樣做就是在農會在審查的時候我們會個案如果他有一些可以補件的部分可以修正的部分我們會盡量來協助但本席擔心的是可能部裡面只有部長這樣想不會你下面的人多嚴格你知道嗎我有多少的例子你知道嗎我會特別的要求我支持部長審查當然要據實\n\n69\n00:25:05,516 --> 00:25:28,451\n當然一定要展現我們對農民關懷的溫暖給他們一點寬容這個一定要出來而且從人性的這個角度來關懷農民關懷漁民這個一定要統領下去所有的同仁一定要這樣做到拜託院長了也拜託部長那接下來我因為時間也剩不多我想要問一下部長有關於我們斗六這個鐵路高架化\n\n70\n00:25:35,660 --> 00:25:59,228\n我們這個斗六市雲林縣的行政中心那市區內的鐵路貫穿有九處的平交道每年發生多起的事故那不僅威脅了人民的生命安全那也嚴重影響了我們的城市發展那形成一個長久以來的一個瓶頸那攸關雲林縣的重要建設早在這個\n\n71\n00:26:01,689 --> 00:26:24,696\n11年3月17就通過了交通部的鐵道局的初審那經歷了多次的這個審查上次本席也在這裡問過您那終於在6月解決了一曲率半徑二效益評估三臨時平交道的三大關卡已經送進去這個交通部審查了然而過去了9個月\n\n72\n00:26:25,956 --> 00:26:47,834\n原地踏步毫無進展那去年十月呢我也向卓院長詢問過此案的進度那我想要知道說就是這樣的拖延究竟是有什麼有行政帶拓呢還是有其他的考量是否有具體的時程因為等六人喔已經等了三十年了還要再等多久院長\n\n73\n00:26:50,772 --> 00:27:12,746\n目前的程序上面其實您剛剛所說的都是正確那現在因為他這個路線不佳跟重波不佳的原因我們還在做研究當中因為重波不佳會影響到未來的整體的安全性還有就是他整個爬坡的那個耗損性那這個部分其實會是長期的影響我們希望把這個問題先解決完之後我們再進入下一個步驟當然我知道委員\n\n74\n00:27:13,627 --> 00:27:23,221\n一直在爭取啦地方上的委員大家都在爭取斗六的這個鐵道的高價化那我們會積極來推動不過現在工程上面的問題我覺得你剛剛就講到重點了就是這個是安全的問題喔就是\n\n75\n00:27:28,568 --> 00:27:55,380\n根據了解本案內環橋路段設計的坡度是千分之十四點八七然後完全符合你這個交通部鐵道局軌道工程設計的注意事項規定的最大坡度不得超過千分之二十五那這個整個本案的線型調整跟設計早就跟台鐵公司充分協商並取得同意符合這個專業標準\n\n76\n00:27:57,361 --> 00:28:08,748\n那為什麼交通部在這個月又推翻了這個設計導致這個計畫遲遲無法推動呢我們的審議委員如果有提出不一樣的意見的時候我們都必須要審慎去面對\n\n77\n00:28:10,250 --> 00:28:34,215\n我必須要說的是鐵道高架化這個是很長遠的一個建設如果要做就要把它做好所以我們現在也正在研議說該用什麼樣的方法我現在比較擔心的是是不是有選舉考量難道是因為本席上任不到半年就解決了這個卡關30年的問題導致有人刻意從中作梗然後阻礙斗六的發展\n\n78\n00:28:35,015 --> 00:28:54,211\n把自己的利益放在民眾跟國家的利益之上報告委員這個是專業的工程上面的問題跟選舉其實不會有任何關係報告委員你放心不會有選舉的考量不會有政黨的考量不會有個人的考量真的我也不希望是我個人的原因耶是不是也不希望是選舉的原因不希望是政治的原因\n\n79\n00:28:54,631 --> 00:29:14,217\n希望真的站在這個百姓的立場所以這一點我得到這個院長跟部長的承諾那假設部長說要講專業我就提幾個案子因為部長也是來自台中嘛那台中的鐵路高降化的計畫它的全線波度是介於一點千分之1.8跟\n\n80\n00:29:16,197 --> 00:29:44,895\n時期那所以其實台中包括這個大慶車站立體交會處的波度是達到千分之十七是高於斗六的那為什麼至今已經營運多年也沒有任何問題那斗六其實設計的波度更小更安全卻能被卡關呢因為斗六這邊這個問題應該是可以解決的我們目前也在研議當中所以這個解決的方案應該很快就出來\n\n81\n00:29:45,771 --> 00:30:01,911\n是拜託部長了因為競速我想相同的專業問題不可能也不應該有不同的結果怎麼會相同的這個波度甚至更小當初台中可以結果我們斗六不可以\n\n82\n00:30:03,372 --> 00:30:22,808\n這個就是會讓人家有不好的一個聯想所以這一點我一定要特別拜託院長拜託部長30年的等待有多少家庭因為交通事故然後被毀了有多少地方發展因為受限只能無奈限縮我們看到其他的城市\n\n83\n00:30:31,227 --> 00:30:37,719\n好謝謝張家俊委員質詢謝謝卓院長各部會首長的備詢接下來我們請登記\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5137\t8798\t院長我想請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢各位好\n20657\t48259\t主委院長早安那我想喔大家的問題喔真的是非常的多那其實大家的這個初衷喔都是希望說我們台灣能夠更好我們的民生喔能夠更穩定那我想要請教院長啊就是近期喔在這個報紙上面喔傳的這個新聞媒體上面傳的沸沸揚揚的這個非綠賓購買綠電這一件事情喔不曉得部長有沒有跟您\n50024\t51653\t這個報告過他的評估的結果\n53263\t81337\t在歷次的會議當中有碰觸到這些個問題部長也有他的想法但一切都是在還要取得更多的這個雙方的合作或者意願那現在來看目前這個事情還不到一個最成熟的階段請部長說明所以可以請教院長報告委員我想這件事情呢等等等等我要請教院長我要請教院長院長請問這是您支持的嗎這個方向您是支持的嗎\n81997\t98753\t如果我們可以從任何的地方方式取得成本足以我們負擔而且國內需求的所有的能源不管從什麼方向 什麼地方 什麼方式都是我們在嘗試的方向之一\n99153\t125315\t那我是不是來跟院長說一下第一就是去年十月在部長提出這個菲律賓重電的想法之後呢其實外界是多有批評但是近日看經濟部的這個台菲電力合作評估報告的結果顯示第一呢短期內是沒有辦法蓋海底電纜的那要用電池船運回來每度電要5.5元\n127116\t151876\t那長期要建設這個呂宋海峽的電纜能源署自己都說現階段而言呢不管是成本、技術、法規面都有待克服那更存在著這個地緣政治的風險那這明明代表像菲律賓購買綠電是有風險的然而昨天經濟部自己發了一個新聞稿\n153337\t175192\t結論就是在菲律賓蓋電廠是具有可行性的那目標價是4塊錢所以4塊錢是您所說的合理的電價嗎部長說明報告委員4塊錢是我說的我們大概高於4塊錢就向外部買這個綠電是沒有意義的\n176775\t195062\t所以我們在評估這份報告是在做可行性評估也就是說要進行這件事情我們必須要先了解是否可行所以你意思就是說現在估計每度電要5.5元就是不可行的意思囉不是喔\n196562\t215969\t他們所引述的資料是日本現在的船載的這些儲能櫃所送的電的容量算出來一度電需要五塊五毛錢但是五塊五是你不能接受的當然不能接受那個是指日本\n220231\t238726\t然後現行因為現在只有日本這樣的一個例可以來做評估但是實際上以我們所了解的程度以我們現在所評估的程度在兩年以後這個成本會大幅下降到四分之一\n239975\t264120\t所以這個是符合我們在評估的部分我現在比較擔心的是說這個是不是先畫標靶然後再設建就是說你明明就已經決定一定要去菲律賓買綠墊了所以你才訂了這個目標價還是像卓院長講的說只要是合理的價錢不管來自哪裡你都會買\n267122\t286862\t是這樣嗎?你是說是你目標一定要這樣做嗎?你說這個菲律賓,我是菲律賓協議我們最近...政府過去花了數千億投入這個綠能,結果我們台灣現在還要向菲律賓買綠電,然後這次是代表我們的能源政策失敗呢?\n287483\t315024\t就台灣不是一直在強調能源轉型呢怎麼會轉到最後我們連自己的電都不夠還要去向菲律賓買電然後一直在想說能源要自主結果現在我們朝向進口電力這不是自相矛盾嗎不是現在的區域經濟學非常明確的告訴我們每一個國家它的要素餅富是不一樣的\n316352\t328178\t這個經濟學只要懂的人都非常清楚這個是一個很明顯的自相矛盾之外難道台灣的企業未來還得靠等船運來才能用電\n329707\t347589\t菲律賓本身它就是一個電網不穩定的國家常常發生停電台灣的能源安全卻要去依賴它部長你能夠保證這起交易不會成為下一個危機嗎你所談的這一個部分是目前的現象\n348530\t361137\t我們經過可行性評估了解以後為什麼他電會那麼貴是他的電網費用非常的高但是至於他的這個深層的你是台灣的經濟部長不是菲律賓的經濟部長你不需要為菲律賓的這個電價現狀來做說明那我只想問不只是院長部長\n371602\t385626\t其實全世界各國,包括日本、韓國、歐洲,都在重啟核電,那來確保能源穩定的時候,台灣卻寧可向菲律賓買綠電用船運來,也不願意討論核能,這樣子是為什麼呢?\n391407\t416176\t官委員報告這不是台灣寧可剛剛部長也說明了這是一個可行性的評估評估的內容包括很多種包括這個方式是否可行成本是否可行國內是否需要還有沒有其他的替代方式這個都在評估的過程所以這是一個過程當中我們認為很多的來源很多的方式都足以拿出來討論委員你如果認為有新的核能技術\n417156\t440814\t可以讓台灣沒有核安的問題沒有核廢料的處理我們都可以來討論是 我覺得院長這樣子回答就相當理性但我必須要講就是說在部長發這麼多的時間金錢在評估菲律賓的綠電用船運來這件事的同時他是不是也要像院長講的一樣去同時可行性評估\n444957\t445598\t報告委員 這些我們都有在評估\n463833\t482344\t評估的進度為何為什麼到目前都沒有聽說我們只是一味的聽到說菲律賓買綠電我們怎麼都沒有看到經濟部有這個新聞稿對外說我們現在對於重啟核能的進度或者是研發這個新的核電技術的報告都沒有\n483164\t506266\t這個都是我們平常的業務啦也就是說我們是多元的電力的這個必須要使用多元電力的國家所以您剛才所談的這個部分我們當然是都有在這個研討所以你可以看得出來我們雖然已經shut down了這個核電廠的人力但是我們人力都沒有變喔\n508747\t529595\t我想這個電價的問題可能院長跟部長都已經被問到滾瓜爛熟了但我還是必須再問一次就是請問我們台灣的核能發電一度電是多少以目前他因為大部分的折救已經折完了所以他的一度電大概是在接近兩塊錢\n531683\t540689\t1.4塊所以我就想要代表民眾問院長跟部長我們台灣放著一度電1.4塊的電不用我們要用4塊、5塊、6塊、7塊、8塊甚至一度買11.1塊的電\n550199\t561773\t我們現在不是不用 而是說我剛才講的三個前提在前面請問今年是不是要再漲電價是不是要再漲電價\n568851\t579264\t店家當然是店家審議委員會啊那店家審議委員會開會的時候他也會收集各方的資料包括社會 包括民生也包括台電的財務狀況那這個就是他們去討論的內容\n583070\t600230\t這就是本席想要問院長的院長您知道台電現在的財務狀況嗎你知道他目前虧損多少錢嗎幾乎到達4300億左右了沒錯4229億就代表說就算我們今年再撥補那1000億\n601892\t628164\t台電還是虧損啊所以為什麼會覺得說我們三年撥補了他三千億假設今年再撥補他一千億四千億也彌補不了他的虧損甚至還要漲電價所以我想強調兩點第一台電並沒有因為政府撥補就不漲電價第二台電並沒有因為政府撥補或漲電價就停止虧損院長\n632038\t634465\t台電不虧損的原因大家都知道\n636202\t664861\t戰爭的原因有料上漲補貼的政策這個我們不需要重複了那我們1000億的撥補不是要讓他的解決他的財務問題只是讓他的財務能夠健全一點他少支出一些資本的成本利息能夠減輕一些那麼讓他能夠減輕這方面的負擔那麼就不需要去考慮調整或是調整太大幅度的各項電費是做這樣的平衡而已那如果反過來想\n668805\t680516\t你怎麼不支一千億撥補民眾來付漲的電價呢意思是一樣的嘛因為這筆錢都要到台電啊但是感覺不一樣啊\n682362\t696521\t電表不一定每個人都背在身上有的有用到電有的就沒有用到電表雖然每個人都會用到電但電表不一定那我們怎麼去計算對這個人他如果沒有再付電費的時候他就沒有收到錢是 我理解但是呢\n697182\t709219\t我必須要講現在有很多消息都傳出說這個電價審議委員會這一次這一次這就是我在講的說雖然部長院長都說這個電價審議委員會會決定可是其實呢\n713405\t742700\t政府還是有決策的這個角色那大家這個小道消息都傳出來說可能連330度以下的民生用電跟小商家的用電都會調漲那用電大戶可能會漲更多那現在所有的百姓所有的這些民眾大家都在關注所以院長是否可以借今天告訴大家說這次漲電價是否勢在必行\n743140\t769345\t那漲幅有可能在什麼樣的range之內我們還是考慮到它的成本的反應市場的穩定還有民生的穩定還有能夠使用者付費還要提倡節約能源這幾項原則底下那目前你說的那個多少度數以上以下如何調整至少我這裡還沒有看到現在送來的任何報告所以我們也沒有任何的討論\n771819\t785068\t目前其實全面漲電價央行就已經說了會造成今年的CPI會破2%的警戒線聽說院長也指示經濟部也要討論水費調漲的方案民眾要面臨的已經不是電價可能會漲可能水費也要漲這等於是水電雙漲\n800738\t814411\t院長您有考慮過這對一般小家庭的衝擊嗎當然所以我們很慎重因為水價幾乎是30年沒有調30年沒有調過那現在這個水價是非常的低的\n815572\t833303\t也一方面要鼓勵大家能夠節約珍惜這個水資源那也要反映現在每一度水處理的成本那合理的調整是在考慮當中但時機是還沒有決定我們當然希望能夠降低衝擊能夠平衡一點在整個年度當中不要\n837166\t853934\t這就是本席想要提醒院長的真的水電雙長的話對於一般小家庭的衝擊太大了一定要去考量說苦民所苦啊他們的一般的生活已經很辛苦了水電雙長那是整個打到腦門子上\n856095\t878460\t非常非常的嚴重那另外我也想提醒一下郭部長郭部長我當然知道你有很多雄心壯志但是你知道水電衝擊衝擊的可能不只是民眾還有可能是你個人因為通常有一些慣例就是年終有可能會換隔園有可能會異動那調整這些民生費用可能會變成\n880100\t907591\t你要扛下來的責任也有可能是要替換這個格緣的原因所以呢我也希望說這件事情搞不好也會變成你畢業的理由那我當然提醒你啦這個人民最關心的倒不是誰來當官而是自己的生活開銷會不會因此而提高那我在這裡也希望說當然我們政府\n908231\t935457\t能夠提供企業穩定用電然後民眾合理的電價讓我們國家在競爭力上面尤其你看我們的最大的這個可能競爭對手韓國他都宣布說在2038年之前他要再蓋四座核能發電廠那我們未來的競爭力在哪裡我們不是還要發展AI嗎我們不是還要發展更多的晶圓廠嗎那電力來源到底在哪裡\n938891\t953399\t跟委員報告這個我們會非常審慎的來觀察民生的穩定我個人認為郭部長我不期待他只是一位水電部長他是掌握國家經濟發展的經濟部長這個才是他的正職\n954861\t979577\t我們共同期待啊但我必須要提醒說假設在重啟核能或者是研發新的這個核電技術上那政府如果消極的話立法院就要積極核管法的修正喔從上個會期就在討論那未來修正通過之後我們就可以跟國際接軌讓核電研議喔那我也希望說這個部分喔院長能夠大力的支持\n981872\t998630\t院長能夠支持嗎如果立法院修正通過之後行政院是不是還要再提復議我再說說明只要是合乎憲法的規定而且經過充分的討論民主的程序我也來自立法院對立法院的尊重\n999431\t1022119\t我跟歷任的院長都一樣好 謝謝院長那我接下來想要問有關於這個農業部針對農保資格大規模清查的這件事情不曉得院長知不知道這個農業部最近在清查這個農保資格是 這好像他們的一般的業務之一嘛請部長說明\n1022859\t1048458\t我跟委員報告這次農保清查不是說第一次我們持續都有清查然後是根據監察院審計部要求來清查有關於天然災害領埔的跟農保地的差異所以你農業部並沒有主動想要清查的意思是嗎都是別人逼你的意思嗎我們的清查就是例行上都有清查因為農保就是一種從事農業工作的在職的社會保護\n1049318\t1071563\t所以現在其實呢您開始清查之後讓基層的農民可以說是人心惶惶大家都非常的害怕部分農民可能面臨失去農保資格的風險那他一生耕耘那麼認真那麼辛苦風雨無阻地種植糧食然後養活這麼多的人民結果今天\n1072603\t1084528\t可能他們年老體衰因為配合很多政府的政策被告知說你不再是農民了你的農保資格取消了請問部長你覺得這樣對得起為台灣農業奉獻一輩子的農民嗎我要跟委員報告就是我們這次的清查是在65歲以下的我們並沒有針對65歲以上的農民來做清查\n1098894\t1118414\t另外一個方式就是65歲以上的農民他即使把地租出去他的農保地不需要到一分地所以這個完全沒有問題我不是不知道但是你要想假設是65歲以前那更可憐\n1120267\t1136633\t那就代表說他以後可能領不到老農年金了他就不符合老農年金的資格了那影響不是比你清查65歲以下的還大嗎我要跟委員說明他如果沒有農地他就沒有從事農業當初他們配合政府政策說你把電租出給這個光電業者\n1144116\t1167771\t或者您每天在講的一期二轉三加三裡面是不是鼓勵小地主把地都租給大電農這個部分怎麼辦 我要跟委員說明漁電共生一個非常重要的前提就是以農為本 綠能是加值的所以他還是要從事農業我不是說 我不是只有針對農漁電共生我是針對整體的綠能政策嘛那這個部分\n1173715\t1182227\t很多農民也許住在台北或都市的百姓會覺得哇 你農民怎麼這麼貪心啊你又要租金 然後你又要這個保險\n1183891\t1207450\t他們真的不是貪心他們是真的不知道他們的權益受損我希望部長能夠站在這些農民的角色其實呢我真的是對事不對人啊我也知道說部長是一個很認真的這個工作在這個很認真的官員可是呢我必須要講你不能整天\n1208271\t1234091\t把你的精神都用在跟立法委員打嘴狗都用在跟立法委員爭辯我們提出的這個需求是真的來自地方基層他們需要我不是希望說我今天鬥嘴贏過你我也不是希望說今天政治鬥爭我能贏過你我是希望說你要站在他們的立場\n1235452\t1260289\t來幫助他們啊 幫助這些農民啊否則這些農民 我告訴你 他接到公文他真的是跑到農會去問我跟你說 那是晴天霹靂 他欲哭無淚那這些真的無助的農民 院長你覺得他應該怎麼辦呢我跟委員說沒有沒有 我問院長 院長這些無助的農民怎麼辦農委會沒有要back up他們農委會沒有要支持他們現行的政策是 你土地 農民的土地\n1260993\t1278524\t出租給業者進行光電的合作只要他還有從事農業的生產是不會影響到任何農民的權益但你如果完全都把它放棄了跟我們現在的政策是有所不符那我必須在這裡跟這個院長還有部長講其實呢\n1282472\t1303630\t我不知道是不是農業部裡面有一些官員說實在是相當的冷血有很多農會幫這些農民在陳情、在說明的時候你知道嗎?我只是不希望今天把它秀出來我覺得實在是太心酸了\n1305618\t1322971\t那個計政就直接跟那個農會講啊他說他都已經可以領老農年金了他沒有領上上補助費反正他死了也領不到這種話說得出口你覺得這有把農民放在心上嗎說這種話的官員如果是有官員說這種話是不對的我想我們會針對\n1324512\t1352176\t這些可能的這些有疑慮的我們會逐一的去了解而且能夠幫忙他確保農保的身份這是第一要件所以他未來是一定是一個個案的實際的去審查是所以部長我真心的在這裡呼籲你真的放下那些政治鬥爭的心放下那些只想要到罪過的心我們一起來為農民爭取他們的權益守護他們你做得到嗎\n1352836\t1367450\t我想我覺得做得到 如果很多外界的那個批評是真實的我們一定虛心接受 如果它是一個錯假的話我們一定會做一個澄清各位 我們在農漁的合作上面我始終強調農漁優先農漁優先\n1371997\t1386605\t官員有沒有剛剛委員有講的那一段話我們要告訴官員講這段話是不對的是要告訴官員不可以講這種的話嚴厲的要求農業優先是政府永遠不變的定律\n1387445\t1404841\t謝謝因為真的他們是非常弱勢的一名他們根本是沒有辦法去理解他們的權益在哪裡他們失去了他們權益他們也求助無門所以今天我必須代表農漁民在這裡轉達他們的心聲幫他們澄清那我也在這裡懇求院長漁店農店\n1409059\t1436141\t一定要動漲假設今年再漲店家的話我們農業的用電漁業的用電一定要比照去年喔繼續動漲可不可以拜託院長因為很多大企業說實在你漲店家你只是傷他的皮膚你只是傷他的皮毛可是如果你漲我們農業的用電你漲我們漁業的用電我們有很多農家子弟很多農民的下一代他可能下個學期他就繳不起學費了今年\n1438806\t1452350\t如何會不會漲還是電價審議委員會但是過去有漲農業部我們都有電價補貼可以讓他的負擔減輕很多我跟委員報告就是就算電價有槓農業部會針對這個差價的部分做補貼這樣以今年來講我們就補貼了25億\n1457594\t1481663\t是謝謝那我再一次呼籲希望說這個農保的審查能夠放寬能夠真的搞不好可以重新再怎麼樣來調整讓這些可能受到傷害或者是有危險的就是有風險的有失去農保風險的這些農民可以有補健的機會有補救的機會這一點部長可以承諾嗎\n1482403\t1504035\t我們一直在這樣做就是在農會在審查的時候我們會個案如果他有一些可以補件的部分可以修正的部分我們會盡量來協助但本席擔心的是可能部裡面只有部長這樣想不會你下面的人多嚴格你知道嗎我有多少的例子你知道嗎我會特別的要求我支持部長審查當然要據實\n1505516\t1528451\t當然一定要展現我們對農民關懷的溫暖給他們一點寬容這個一定要出來而且從人性的這個角度來關懷農民關懷漁民這個一定要統領下去所有的同仁一定要這樣做到拜託院長了也拜託部長那接下來我因為時間也剩不多我想要問一下部長有關於我們斗六這個鐵路高架化\n1535660\t1559228\t我們這個斗六市雲林縣的行政中心那市區內的鐵路貫穿有九處的平交道每年發生多起的事故那不僅威脅了人民的生命安全那也嚴重影響了我們的城市發展那形成一個長久以來的一個瓶頸那攸關雲林縣的重要建設早在這個\n1561689\t1584696\t11年3月17就通過了交通部的鐵道局的初審那經歷了多次的這個審查上次本席也在這裡問過您那終於在6月解決了一 曲率半徑二 效益評估三 臨時平交道的三大關卡已經送進去這個交通部審查了然而過去了9個月\n1585956\t1607834\t原地踏步毫無進展那去年十月呢我也向卓院長詢問過此案的進度那我想要知道說就是這樣的拖延究竟是有什麼有行政帶拓呢還是有其他的考量是否有具體的時程因為等六人喔已經等了三十年了還要再等多久院長\n1610772\t1632746\t目前的程序上面其實您剛剛所說的都是正確那現在因為他這個路線不佳跟重波不佳的原因我們還在做研究當中因為重波不佳會影響到未來的整體的安全性還有就是他整個爬坡的那個耗損性那這個部分其實會是長期的影響我們希望把這個問題先解決完之後我們再進入下一個步驟當然我知道委員\n1633627\t1643221\t一直在爭取啦地方上的委員大家都在爭取斗六的這個鐵道的高價化那我們會積極來推動不過現在工程上面的問題我覺得你剛剛就講到重點了就是這個是安全的問題喔就是\n1648568\t1675380\t根據了解本案內環橋路段設計的坡度是千分之十四點八七然後完全符合你這個交通部鐵道局軌道工程設計的注意事項規定的最大坡度不得超過千分之二十五那這個整個本案的線型調整跟設計早就跟台鐵公司充分協商並取得同意符合這個專業標準\n1677361\t1688748\t那為什麼交通部在這個月又推翻了這個設計導致這個計畫遲遲無法推動呢我們的審議委員如果有提出不一樣的意見的時候我們都必須要審慎去面對\n1690250\t1714215\t我必須要說的是鐵道高架化這個是很長遠的一個建設如果要做就要把它做好所以我們現在也正在研議說該用什麼樣的方法我現在比較擔心的是是不是有選舉考量難道是因為本席上任不到半年就解決了這個卡關30年的問題導致有人刻意從中作梗然後阻礙斗六的發展\n1715015\t1734211\t把自己的利益放在民眾跟國家的利益之上報告委員 這個是專業的工程上面的問題跟選舉其實不會有任何關係報告委員 你放心不會有選舉的考量不會有政黨的考量不會有個人的考量真的 我也不希望是我個人的原因耶是不是也不希望是選舉的原因不希望是政治的原因\n1734631\t1754217\t希望真的站在這個百姓的立場所以這一點我得到這個院長跟部長的承諾那假設部長說要講專業我就提幾個案子因為部長也是來自台中嘛那台中的鐵路高降化的計畫它的全線波度是介於一點千分之1.8跟\n1756197\t1784895\t時期那所以其實台中包括這個大慶車站立體交會處的波度是達到千分之十七是高於斗六的那為什麼至今已經營運多年也沒有任何問題那斗六其實設計的波度更小更安全卻能被卡關呢因為斗六這邊這個問題應該是可以解決的我們目前也在研議當中所以這個解決的方案應該很快就出來\n1785771\t1801911\t是 拜託部長了因為競速我想相同的專業問題不可能也不應該有不同的結果怎麼會相同的這個波度甚至更小當初台中可以結果我們斗六不可以\n1803372\t1822808\t這個就是會讓人家有不好的一個聯想所以這一點我一定要特別拜託院長拜託部長30年的等待有多少家庭因為交通事故然後被毀了有多少地方發展因為受限只能無奈限縮我們看到其他的城市\n1831227\t1837719\t好 謝謝張家俊委員質詢 謝謝卓院長 各部會首長的備詢接下來我們請登記\n","txt":"院長我想請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢各位好\n主委院長早安那我想喔大家的問題喔真的是非常的多那其實大家的這個初衷喔都是希望說我們台灣能夠更好我們的民生喔能夠更穩定那我想要請教院長啊就是近期喔在這個報紙上面喔傳的這個新聞媒體上面傳的沸沸揚揚的這個非綠賓購買綠電這一件事情喔不曉得部長有沒有跟您\n這個報告過他的評估的結果\n在歷次的會議當中有碰觸到這些個問題部長也有他的想法但一切都是在還要取得更多的這個雙方的合作或者意願那現在來看目前這個事情還不到一個最成熟的階段請部長說明所以可以請教院長報告委員我想這件事情呢等等等等我要請教院長我要請教院長院長請問這是您支持的嗎這個方向您是支持的嗎\n如果我們可以從任何的地方方式取得成本足以我們負擔而且國內需求的所有的能源不管從什麼方向 什麼地方 什麼方式都是我們在嘗試的方向之一\n那我是不是來跟院長說一下第一就是去年十月在部長提出這個菲律賓重電的想法之後呢其實外界是多有批評但是近日看經濟部的這個台菲電力合作評估報告的結果顯示第一呢短期內是沒有辦法蓋海底電纜的那要用電池船運回來每度電要5.5元\n那長期要建設這個呂宋海峽的電纜能源署自己都說現階段而言呢不管是成本、技術、法規面都有待克服那更存在著這個地緣政治的風險那這明明代表像菲律賓購買綠電是有風險的然而昨天經濟部自己發了一個新聞稿\n結論就是在菲律賓蓋電廠是具有可行性的那目標價是4塊錢所以4塊錢是您所說的合理的電價嗎部長說明報告委員4塊錢是我說的我們大概高於4塊錢就向外部買這個綠電是沒有意義的\n所以我們在評估這份報告是在做可行性評估也就是說要進行這件事情我們必須要先了解是否可行所以你意思就是說現在估計每度電要5.5元就是不可行的意思囉不是喔\n他們所引述的資料是日本現在的船載的這些儲能櫃所送的電的容量算出來一度電需要五塊五毛錢但是五塊五是你不能接受的當然不能接受那個是指日本\n然後現行因為現在只有日本這樣的一個例可以來做評估但是實際上以我們所了解的程度以我們現在所評估的程度在兩年以後這個成本會大幅下降到四分之一\n所以這個是符合我們在評估的部分我現在比較擔心的是說這個是不是先畫標靶然後再設建就是說你明明就已經決定一定要去菲律賓買綠墊了所以你才訂了這個目標價還是像卓院長講的說只要是合理的價錢不管來自哪裡你都會買\n是這樣嗎?你是說是你目標一定要這樣做嗎?你說這個菲律賓,我是菲律賓協議我們最近...政府過去花了數千億投入這個綠能,結果我們台灣現在還要向菲律賓買綠電,然後這次是代表我們的能源政策失敗呢?\n就台灣不是一直在強調能源轉型呢怎麼會轉到最後我們連自己的電都不夠還要去向菲律賓買電然後一直在想說能源要自主結果現在我們朝向進口電力這不是自相矛盾嗎不是現在的區域經濟學非常明確的告訴我們每一個國家它的要素餅富是不一樣的\n這個經濟學只要懂的人都非常清楚這個是一個很明顯的自相矛盾之外難道台灣的企業未來還得靠等船運來才能用電\n菲律賓本身它就是一個電網不穩定的國家常常發生停電台灣的能源安全卻要去依賴它部長你能夠保證這起交易不會成為下一個危機嗎你所談的這一個部分是目前的現象\n我們經過可行性評估了解以後為什麼他電會那麼貴是他的電網費用非常的高但是至於他的這個深層的你是台灣的經濟部長不是菲律賓的經濟部長你不需要為菲律賓的這個電價現狀來做說明那我只想問不只是院長部長\n其實全世界各國,包括日本、韓國、歐洲,都在重啟核電,那來確保能源穩定的時候,台灣卻寧可向菲律賓買綠電用船運來,也不願意討論核能,這樣子是為什麼呢?\n官委員報告這不是台灣寧可剛剛部長也說明了這是一個可行性的評估評估的內容包括很多種包括這個方式是否可行成本是否可行國內是否需要還有沒有其他的替代方式這個都在評估的過程所以這是一個過程當中我們認為很多的來源很多的方式都足以拿出來討論委員你如果認為有新的核能技術\n可以讓台灣沒有核安的問題沒有核廢料的處理我們都可以來討論是 我覺得院長這樣子回答就相當理性但我必須要講就是說在部長發這麼多的時間金錢在評估菲律賓的綠電用船運來這件事的同時他是不是也要像院長講的一樣去同時可行性評估\n報告委員 這些我們都有在評估\n評估的進度為何為什麼到目前都沒有聽說我們只是一味的聽到說菲律賓買綠電我們怎麼都沒有看到經濟部有這個新聞稿對外說我們現在對於重啟核能的進度或者是研發這個新的核電技術的報告都沒有\n這個都是我們平常的業務啦也就是說我們是多元的電力的這個必須要使用多元電力的國家所以您剛才所談的這個部分我們當然是都有在這個研討所以你可以看得出來我們雖然已經shut down了這個核電廠的人力但是我們人力都沒有變喔\n我想這個電價的問題可能院長跟部長都已經被問到滾瓜爛熟了但我還是必須再問一次就是請問我們台灣的核能發電一度電是多少以目前他因為大部分的折救已經折完了所以他的一度電大概是在接近兩塊錢\n1.4塊所以我就想要代表民眾問院長跟部長我們台灣放著一度電1.4塊的電不用我們要用4塊、5塊、6塊、7塊、8塊甚至一度買11.1塊的電\n我們現在不是不用 而是說我剛才講的三個前提在前面請問今年是不是要再漲電價是不是要再漲電價\n店家當然是店家審議委員會啊那店家審議委員會開會的時候他也會收集各方的資料包括社會 包括民生也包括台電的財務狀況那這個就是他們去討論的內容\n這就是本席想要問院長的院長您知道台電現在的財務狀況嗎你知道他目前虧損多少錢嗎幾乎到達4300億左右了沒錯4229億就代表說就算我們今年再撥補那1000億\n台電還是虧損啊所以為什麼會覺得說我們三年撥補了他三千億假設今年再撥補他一千億四千億也彌補不了他的虧損甚至還要漲電價所以我想強調兩點第一台電並沒有因為政府撥補就不漲電價第二台電並沒有因為政府撥補或漲電價就停止虧損院長\n台電不虧損的原因大家都知道\n戰爭的原因有料上漲補貼的政策這個我們不需要重複了那我們1000億的撥補不是要讓他的解決他的財務問題只是讓他的財務能夠健全一點他少支出一些資本的成本利息能夠減輕一些那麼讓他能夠減輕這方面的負擔那麼就不需要去考慮調整或是調整太大幅度的各項電費是做這樣的平衡而已那如果反過來想\n你怎麼不支一千億撥補民眾來付漲的電價呢意思是一樣的嘛因為這筆錢都要到台電啊但是感覺不一樣啊\n電表不一定每個人都背在身上有的有用到電有的就沒有用到電表雖然每個人都會用到電但電表不一定那我們怎麼去計算對這個人他如果沒有再付電費的時候他就沒有收到錢是 我理解但是呢\n我必須要講現在有很多消息都傳出說這個電價審議委員會這一次這一次這就是我在講的說雖然部長院長都說這個電價審議委員會會決定可是其實呢\n政府還是有決策的這個角色那大家這個小道消息都傳出來說可能連330度以下的民生用電跟小商家的用電都會調漲那用電大戶可能會漲更多那現在所有的百姓所有的這些民眾大家都在關注所以院長是否可以借今天告訴大家說這次漲電價是否勢在必行\n那漲幅有可能在什麼樣的range之內我們還是考慮到它的成本的反應市場的穩定還有民生的穩定還有能夠使用者付費還要提倡節約能源這幾項原則底下那目前你說的那個多少度數以上以下如何調整至少我這裡還沒有看到現在送來的任何報告所以我們也沒有任何的討論\n目前其實全面漲電價央行就已經說了會造成今年的CPI會破2%的警戒線聽說院長也指示經濟部也要討論水費調漲的方案民眾要面臨的已經不是電價可能會漲可能水費也要漲這等於是水電雙漲\n院長您有考慮過這對一般小家庭的衝擊嗎當然所以我們很慎重因為水價幾乎是30年沒有調30年沒有調過那現在這個水價是非常的低的\n也一方面要鼓勵大家能夠節約珍惜這個水資源那也要反映現在每一度水處理的成本那合理的調整是在考慮當中但時機是還沒有決定我們當然希望能夠降低衝擊能夠平衡一點在整個年度當中不要\n這就是本席想要提醒院長的真的水電雙長的話對於一般小家庭的衝擊太大了一定要去考量說苦民所苦啊他們的一般的生活已經很辛苦了水電雙長那是整個打到腦門子上\n非常非常的嚴重那另外我也想提醒一下郭部長郭部長我當然知道你有很多雄心壯志但是你知道水電衝擊衝擊的可能不只是民眾還有可能是你個人因為通常有一些慣例就是年終有可能會換隔園有可能會異動那調整這些民生費用可能會變成\n你要扛下來的責任也有可能是要替換這個格緣的原因所以呢我也希望說這件事情搞不好也會變成你畢業的理由那我當然提醒你啦這個人民最關心的倒不是誰來當官而是自己的生活開銷會不會因此而提高那我在這裡也希望說當然我們政府\n能夠提供企業穩定用電然後民眾合理的電價讓我們國家在競爭力上面尤其你看我們的最大的這個可能競爭對手韓國他都宣布說在2038年之前他要再蓋四座核能發電廠那我們未來的競爭力在哪裡我們不是還要發展AI嗎我們不是還要發展更多的晶圓廠嗎那電力來源到底在哪裡\n跟委員報告這個我們會非常審慎的來觀察民生的穩定我個人認為郭部長我不期待他只是一位水電部長他是掌握國家經濟發展的經濟部長這個才是他的正職\n我們共同期待啊但我必須要提醒說假設在重啟核能或者是研發新的這個核電技術上那政府如果消極的話立法院就要積極核管法的修正喔從上個會期就在討論那未來修正通過之後我們就可以跟國際接軌讓核電研議喔那我也希望說這個部分喔院長能夠大力的支持\n院長能夠支持嗎如果立法院修正通過之後行政院是不是還要再提復議我再說說明只要是合乎憲法的規定而且經過充分的討論民主的程序我也來自立法院對立法院的尊重\n我跟歷任的院長都一樣好 謝謝院長那我接下來想要問有關於這個農業部針對農保資格大規模清查的這件事情不曉得院長知不知道這個農業部最近在清查這個農保資格是 這好像他們的一般的業務之一嘛請部長說明\n我跟委員報告這次農保清查不是說第一次我們持續都有清查然後是根據監察院審計部要求來清查有關於天然災害領埔的跟農保地的差異所以你農業部並沒有主動想要清查的意思是嗎都是別人逼你的意思嗎我們的清查就是例行上都有清查因為農保就是一種從事農業工作的在職的社會保護\n所以現在其實呢您開始清查之後讓基層的農民可以說是人心惶惶大家都非常的害怕部分農民可能面臨失去農保資格的風險那他一生耕耘那麼認真那麼辛苦風雨無阻地種植糧食然後養活這麼多的人民結果今天\n可能他們年老體衰因為配合很多政府的政策被告知說你不再是農民了你的農保資格取消了請問部長你覺得這樣對得起為台灣農業奉獻一輩子的農民嗎我要跟委員報告就是我們這次的清查是在65歲以下的我們並沒有針對65歲以上的農民來做清查\n另外一個方式就是65歲以上的農民他即使把地租出去他的農保地不需要到一分地所以這個完全沒有問題我不是不知道但是你要想假設是65歲以前那更可憐\n那就代表說他以後可能領不到老農年金了他就不符合老農年金的資格了那影響不是比你清查65歲以下的還大嗎我要跟委員說明他如果沒有農地他就沒有從事農業當初他們配合政府政策說你把電租出給這個光電業者\n或者您每天在講的一期二轉三加三裡面是不是鼓勵小地主把地都租給大電農這個部分怎麼辦 我要跟委員說明漁電共生一個非常重要的前提就是以農為本 綠能是加值的所以他還是要從事農業我不是說 我不是只有針對農漁電共生我是針對整體的綠能政策嘛那這個部分\n很多農民也許住在台北或都市的百姓會覺得哇 你農民怎麼這麼貪心啊你又要租金 然後你又要這個保險\n他們真的不是貪心他們是真的不知道他們的權益受損我希望部長能夠站在這些農民的角色其實呢我真的是對事不對人啊我也知道說部長是一個很認真的這個工作在這個很認真的官員可是呢我必須要講你不能整天\n把你的精神都用在跟立法委員打嘴狗都用在跟立法委員爭辯我們提出的這個需求是真的來自地方基層他們需要我不是希望說我今天鬥嘴贏過你我也不是希望說今天政治鬥爭我能贏過你我是希望說你要站在他們的立場\n來幫助他們啊 幫助這些農民啊否則這些農民 我告訴你 他接到公文他真的是跑到農會去問我跟你說 那是晴天霹靂 他欲哭無淚那這些真的無助的農民 院長你覺得他應該怎麼辦呢我跟委員說沒有沒有 我問院長 院長這些無助的農民怎麼辦農委會沒有要back up他們農委會沒有要支持他們現行的政策是 你土地 農民的土地\n出租給業者進行光電的合作只要他還有從事農業的生產是不會影響到任何農民的權益但你如果完全都把它放棄了跟我們現在的政策是有所不符那我必須在這裡跟這個院長還有部長講其實呢\n我不知道是不是農業部裡面有一些官員說實在是相當的冷血有很多農會幫這些農民在陳情、在說明的時候你知道嗎?我只是不希望今天把它秀出來我覺得實在是太心酸了\n那個計政就直接跟那個農會講啊他說他都已經可以領老農年金了他沒有領上上補助費反正他死了也領不到這種話說得出口你覺得這有把農民放在心上嗎說這種話的官員如果是有官員說這種話是不對的我想我們會針對\n這些可能的這些有疑慮的我們會逐一的去了解而且能夠幫忙他確保農保的身份這是第一要件所以他未來是一定是一個個案的實際的去審查是所以部長我真心的在這裡呼籲你真的放下那些政治鬥爭的心放下那些只想要到罪過的心我們一起來為農民爭取他們的權益守護他們你做得到嗎\n我想我覺得做得到 如果很多外界的那個批評是真實的我們一定虛心接受 如果它是一個錯假的話我們一定會做一個澄清各位 我們在農漁的合作上面我始終強調農漁優先農漁優先\n官員有沒有剛剛委員有講的那一段話我們要告訴官員講這段話是不對的是要告訴官員不可以講這種的話嚴厲的要求農業優先是政府永遠不變的定律\n謝謝因為真的他們是非常弱勢的一名他們根本是沒有辦法去理解他們的權益在哪裡他們失去了他們權益他們也求助無門所以今天我必須代表農漁民在這裡轉達他們的心聲幫他們澄清那我也在這裡懇求院長漁店農店\n一定要動漲假設今年再漲店家的話我們農業的用電漁業的用電一定要比照去年喔繼續動漲可不可以拜託院長因為很多大企業說實在你漲店家你只是傷他的皮膚你只是傷他的皮毛可是如果你漲我們農業的用電你漲我們漁業的用電我們有很多農家子弟很多農民的下一代他可能下個學期他就繳不起學費了今年\n如何會不會漲還是電價審議委員會但是過去有漲農業部我們都有電價補貼可以讓他的負擔減輕很多我跟委員報告就是就算電價有槓農業部會針對這個差價的部分做補貼這樣以今年來講我們就補貼了25億\n是謝謝那我再一次呼籲希望說這個農保的審查能夠放寬能夠真的搞不好可以重新再怎麼樣來調整讓這些可能受到傷害或者是有危險的就是有風險的有失去農保風險的這些農民可以有補健的機會有補救的機會這一點部長可以承諾嗎\n我們一直在這樣做就是在農會在審查的時候我們會個案如果他有一些可以補件的部分可以修正的部分我們會盡量來協助但本席擔心的是可能部裡面只有部長這樣想不會你下面的人多嚴格你知道嗎我有多少的例子你知道嗎我會特別的要求我支持部長審查當然要據實\n當然一定要展現我們對農民關懷的溫暖給他們一點寬容這個一定要出來而且從人性的這個角度來關懷農民關懷漁民這個一定要統領下去所有的同仁一定要這樣做到拜託院長了也拜託部長那接下來我因為時間也剩不多我想要問一下部長有關於我們斗六這個鐵路高架化\n我們這個斗六市雲林縣的行政中心那市區內的鐵路貫穿有九處的平交道每年發生多起的事故那不僅威脅了人民的生命安全那也嚴重影響了我們的城市發展那形成一個長久以來的一個瓶頸那攸關雲林縣的重要建設早在這個\n11年3月17就通過了交通部的鐵道局的初審那經歷了多次的這個審查上次本席也在這裡問過您那終於在6月解決了一 曲率半徑二 效益評估三 臨時平交道的三大關卡已經送進去這個交通部審查了然而過去了9個月\n原地踏步毫無進展那去年十月呢我也向卓院長詢問過此案的進度那我想要知道說就是這樣的拖延究竟是有什麼有行政帶拓呢還是有其他的考量是否有具體的時程因為等六人喔已經等了三十年了還要再等多久院長\n目前的程序上面其實您剛剛所說的都是正確那現在因為他這個路線不佳跟重波不佳的原因我們還在做研究當中因為重波不佳會影響到未來的整體的安全性還有就是他整個爬坡的那個耗損性那這個部分其實會是長期的影響我們希望把這個問題先解決完之後我們再進入下一個步驟當然我知道委員\n一直在爭取啦地方上的委員大家都在爭取斗六的這個鐵道的高價化那我們會積極來推動不過現在工程上面的問題我覺得你剛剛就講到重點了就是這個是安全的問題喔就是\n根據了解本案內環橋路段設計的坡度是千分之十四點八七然後完全符合你這個交通部鐵道局軌道工程設計的注意事項規定的最大坡度不得超過千分之二十五那這個整個本案的線型調整跟設計早就跟台鐵公司充分協商並取得同意符合這個專業標準\n那為什麼交通部在這個月又推翻了這個設計導致這個計畫遲遲無法推動呢我們的審議委員如果有提出不一樣的意見的時候我們都必須要審慎去面對\n我必須要說的是鐵道高架化這個是很長遠的一個建設如果要做就要把它做好所以我們現在也正在研議說該用什麼樣的方法我現在比較擔心的是是不是有選舉考量難道是因為本席上任不到半年就解決了這個卡關30年的問題導致有人刻意從中作梗然後阻礙斗六的發展\n把自己的利益放在民眾跟國家的利益之上報告委員 這個是專業的工程上面的問題跟選舉其實不會有任何關係報告委員 你放心不會有選舉的考量不會有政黨的考量不會有個人的考量真的 我也不希望是我個人的原因耶是不是也不希望是選舉的原因不希望是政治的原因\n希望真的站在這個百姓的立場所以這一點我得到這個院長跟部長的承諾那假設部長說要講專業我就提幾個案子因為部長也是來自台中嘛那台中的鐵路高降化的計畫它的全線波度是介於一點千分之1.8跟\n時期那所以其實台中包括這個大慶車站立體交會處的波度是達到千分之十七是高於斗六的那為什麼至今已經營運多年也沒有任何問題那斗六其實設計的波度更小更安全卻能被卡關呢因為斗六這邊這個問題應該是可以解決的我們目前也在研議當中所以這個解決的方案應該很快就出來\n是 拜託部長了因為競速我想相同的專業問題不可能也不應該有不同的結果怎麼會相同的這個波度甚至更小當初台中可以結果我們斗六不可以\n這個就是會讓人家有不好的一個聯想所以這一點我一定要特別拜託院長拜託部長30年的等待有多少家庭因為交通事故然後被毀了有多少地方發展因為受限只能無奈限縮我們看到其他的城市\n好 謝謝張家俊委員質詢 謝謝卓院長 各部會首長的備詢接下來我們請登記\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.137 --> 00:08.798\n院長我想請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢各位好\n\n00:20.657 --> 00:48.259\n主委院長早安那我想喔大家的問題喔真的是非常的多那其實大家的這個初衷喔都是希望說我們台灣能夠更好我們的民生喔能夠更穩定那我想要請教院長啊就是近期喔在這個報紙上面喔傳的這個新聞媒體上面傳的沸沸揚揚的這個非綠賓購買綠電這一件事情喔不曉得部長有沒有跟您\n\n00:50.024 --> 00:51.653\n這個報告過他的評估的結果\n\n00:53.263 --> 01:21.337\n在歷次的會議當中有碰觸到這些個問題部長也有他的想法但一切都是在還要取得更多的這個雙方的合作或者意願那現在來看目前這個事情還不到一個最成熟的階段請部長說明所以可以請教院長報告委員我想這件事情呢等等等等我要請教院長我要請教院長院長請問這是您支持的嗎這個方向您是支持的嗎\n\n01:21.997 --> 01:38.753\n如果我們可以從任何的地方方式取得成本足以我們負擔而且國內需求的所有的能源不管從什麼方向什麼地方什麼方式都是我們在嘗試的方向之一\n\n01:39.153 --> 02:05.315\n那我是不是來跟院長說一下第一就是去年十月在部長提出這個菲律賓重電的想法之後呢其實外界是多有批評但是近日看經濟部的這個台菲電力合作評估報告的結果顯示第一呢短期內是沒有辦法蓋海底電纜的那要用電池船運回來每度電要5.5元\n\n02:07.116 --> 02:31.876\n那長期要建設這個呂宋海峽的電纜能源署自己都說現階段而言呢不管是成本、技術、法規面都有待克服那更存在著這個地緣政治的風險那這明明代表像菲律賓購買綠電是有風險的然而昨天經濟部自己發了一個新聞稿\n\n02:33.337 --> 02:55.192\n結論就是在菲律賓蓋電廠是具有可行性的那目標價是4塊錢所以4塊錢是您所說的合理的電價嗎部長說明報告委員4塊錢是我說的我們大概高於4塊錢就向外部買這個綠電是沒有意義的\n\n02:56.775 --> 03:15.062\n所以我們在評估這份報告是在做可行性評估也就是說要進行這件事情我們必須要先了解是否可行所以你意思就是說現在估計每度電要5.5元就是不可行的意思囉不是喔\n\n03:16.562 --> 03:35.969\n他們所引述的資料是日本現在的船載的這些儲能櫃所送的電的容量算出來一度電需要五塊五毛錢但是五塊五是你不能接受的當然不能接受那個是指日本\n\n03:40.231 --> 03:58.726\n然後現行因為現在只有日本這樣的一個例可以來做評估但是實際上以我們所了解的程度以我們現在所評估的程度在兩年以後這個成本會大幅下降到四分之一\n\n03:59.975 --> 04:24.120\n所以這個是符合我們在評估的部分我現在比較擔心的是說這個是不是先畫標靶然後再設建就是說你明明就已經決定一定要去菲律賓買綠墊了所以你才訂了這個目標價還是像卓院長講的說只要是合理的價錢不管來自哪裡你都會買\n\n04:27.122 --> 04:46.862\n是這樣嗎?你是說是你目標一定要這樣做嗎?你說這個菲律賓,我是菲律賓協議我們最近...政府過去花了數千億投入這個綠能,結果我們台灣現在還要向菲律賓買綠電,然後這次是代表我們的能源政策失敗呢?\n\n04:47.483 --> 05:15.024\n就台灣不是一直在強調能源轉型呢怎麼會轉到最後我們連自己的電都不夠還要去向菲律賓買電然後一直在想說能源要自主結果現在我們朝向進口電力這不是自相矛盾嗎不是現在的區域經濟學非常明確的告訴我們每一個國家它的要素餅富是不一樣的\n\n05:16.352 --> 05:28.178\n這個經濟學只要懂的人都非常清楚這個是一個很明顯的自相矛盾之外難道台灣的企業未來還得靠等船運來才能用電\n\n05:29.707 --> 05:47.589\n菲律賓本身它就是一個電網不穩定的國家常常發生停電台灣的能源安全卻要去依賴它部長你能夠保證這起交易不會成為下一個危機嗎你所談的這一個部分是目前的現象\n\n05:48.530 --> 06:01.137\n我們經過可行性評估了解以後為什麼他電會那麼貴是他的電網費用非常的高但是至於他的這個深層的你是台灣的經濟部長不是菲律賓的經濟部長你不需要為菲律賓的這個電價現狀來做說明那我只想問不只是院長部長\n\n06:11.602 --> 06:25.626\n其實全世界各國,包括日本、韓國、歐洲,都在重啟核電,那來確保能源穩定的時候,台灣卻寧可向菲律賓買綠電用船運來,也不願意討論核能,這樣子是為什麼呢?\n\n06:31.407 --> 06:56.176\n官委員報告這不是台灣寧可剛剛部長也說明了這是一個可行性的評估評估的內容包括很多種包括這個方式是否可行成本是否可行國內是否需要還有沒有其他的替代方式這個都在評估的過程所以這是一個過程當中我們認為很多的來源很多的方式都足以拿出來討論委員你如果認為有新的核能技術\n\n06:57.156 --> 07:20.814\n可以讓台灣沒有核安的問題沒有核廢料的處理我們都可以來討論是我覺得院長這樣子回答就相當理性但我必須要講就是說在部長發這麼多的時間金錢在評估菲律賓的綠電用船運來這件事的同時他是不是也要像院長講的一樣去同時可行性評估\n\n07:24.957 --> 07:25.598\n報告委員這些我們都有在評估\n\n07:43.833 --> 08:02.344\n評估的進度為何為什麼到目前都沒有聽說我們只是一味的聽到說菲律賓買綠電我們怎麼都沒有看到經濟部有這個新聞稿對外說我們現在對於重啟核能的進度或者是研發這個新的核電技術的報告都沒有\n\n08:03.164 --> 08:26.266\n這個都是我們平常的業務啦也就是說我們是多元的電力的這個必須要使用多元電力的國家所以您剛才所談的這個部分我們當然是都有在這個研討所以你可以看得出來我們雖然已經shutdown了這個核電廠的人力但是我們人力都沒有變喔\n\n08:28.747 --> 08:49.595\n我想這個電價的問題可能院長跟部長都已經被問到滾瓜爛熟了但我還是必須再問一次就是請問我們台灣的核能發電一度電是多少以目前他因為大部分的折救已經折完了所以他的一度電大概是在接近兩塊錢\n\n08:51.683 --> 09:00.689\n1.4塊所以我就想要代表民眾問院長跟部長我們台灣放著一度電1.4塊的電不用我們要用4塊、5塊、6塊、7塊、8塊甚至一度買11.1塊的電\n\n09:10.199 --> 09:21.773\n我們現在不是不用而是說我剛才講的三個前提在前面請問今年是不是要再漲電價是不是要再漲電價\n\n09:28.851 --> 09:39.264\n店家當然是店家審議委員會啊那店家審議委員會開會的時候他也會收集各方的資料包括社會包括民生也包括台電的財務狀況那這個就是他們去討論的內容\n\n09:43.070 --> 10:00.230\n這就是本席想要問院長的院長您知道台電現在的財務狀況嗎你知道他目前虧損多少錢嗎幾乎到達4300億左右了沒錯4229億就代表說就算我們今年再撥補那1000億\n\n10:01.892 --> 10:28.164\n台電還是虧損啊所以為什麼會覺得說我們三年撥補了他三千億假設今年再撥補他一千億四千億也彌補不了他的虧損甚至還要漲電價所以我想強調兩點第一台電並沒有因為政府撥補就不漲電價第二台電並沒有因為政府撥補或漲電價就停止虧損院長\n\n10:32.038 --> 10:34.465\n台電不虧損的原因大家都知道\n\n10:36.202 --> 11:04.861\n戰爭的原因有料上漲補貼的政策這個我們不需要重複了那我們1000億的撥補不是要讓他的解決他的財務問題只是讓他的財務能夠健全一點他少支出一些資本的成本利息能夠減輕一些那麼讓他能夠減輕這方面的負擔那麼就不需要去考慮調整或是調整太大幅度的各項電費是做這樣的平衡而已那如果反過來想\n\n11:08.805 --> 11:20.516\n你怎麼不支一千億撥補民眾來付漲的電價呢意思是一樣的嘛因為這筆錢都要到台電啊但是感覺不一樣啊\n\n11:22.362 --> 11:36.521\n電表不一定每個人都背在身上有的有用到電有的就沒有用到電表雖然每個人都會用到電但電表不一定那我們怎麼去計算對這個人他如果沒有再付電費的時候他就沒有收到錢是我理解但是呢\n\n11:37.182 --> 11:49.219\n我必須要講現在有很多消息都傳出說這個電價審議委員會這一次這一次這就是我在講的說雖然部長院長都說這個電價審議委員會會決定可是其實呢\n\n11:53.405 --> 12:22.700\n政府還是有決策的這個角色那大家這個小道消息都傳出來說可能連330度以下的民生用電跟小商家的用電都會調漲那用電大戶可能會漲更多那現在所有的百姓所有的這些民眾大家都在關注所以院長是否可以借今天告訴大家說這次漲電價是否勢在必行\n\n12:23.140 --> 12:49.345\n那漲幅有可能在什麼樣的range之內我們還是考慮到它的成本的反應市場的穩定還有民生的穩定還有能夠使用者付費還要提倡節約能源這幾項原則底下那目前你說的那個多少度數以上以下如何調整至少我這裡還沒有看到現在送來的任何報告所以我們也沒有任何的討論\n\n12:51.819 --> 13:05.068\n目前其實全面漲電價央行就已經說了會造成今年的CPI會破2%的警戒線聽說院長也指示經濟部也要討論水費調漲的方案民眾要面臨的已經不是電價可能會漲可能水費也要漲這等於是水電雙漲\n\n13:20.738 --> 13:34.411\n院長您有考慮過這對一般小家庭的衝擊嗎當然所以我們很慎重因為水價幾乎是30年沒有調30年沒有調過那現在這個水價是非常的低的\n\n13:35.572 --> 13:53.303\n也一方面要鼓勵大家能夠節約珍惜這個水資源那也要反映現在每一度水處理的成本那合理的調整是在考慮當中但時機是還沒有決定我們當然希望能夠降低衝擊能夠平衡一點在整個年度當中不要\n\n13:57.166 --> 14:13.934\n這就是本席想要提醒院長的真的水電雙長的話對於一般小家庭的衝擊太大了一定要去考量說苦民所苦啊他們的一般的生活已經很辛苦了水電雙長那是整個打到腦門子上\n\n14:16.095 --> 14:38.460\n非常非常的嚴重那另外我也想提醒一下郭部長郭部長我當然知道你有很多雄心壯志但是你知道水電衝擊衝擊的可能不只是民眾還有可能是你個人因為通常有一些慣例就是年終有可能會換隔園有可能會異動那調整這些民生費用可能會變成\n\n14:40.100 --> 15:07.591\n你要扛下來的責任也有可能是要替換這個格緣的原因所以呢我也希望說這件事情搞不好也會變成你畢業的理由那我當然提醒你啦這個人民最關心的倒不是誰來當官而是自己的生活開銷會不會因此而提高那我在這裡也希望說當然我們政府\n\n15:08.231 --> 15:35.457\n能夠提供企業穩定用電然後民眾合理的電價讓我們國家在競爭力上面尤其你看我們的最大的這個可能競爭對手韓國他都宣布說在2038年之前他要再蓋四座核能發電廠那我們未來的競爭力在哪裡我們不是還要發展AI嗎我們不是還要發展更多的晶圓廠嗎那電力來源到底在哪裡\n\n15:38.891 --> 15:53.399\n跟委員報告這個我們會非常審慎的來觀察民生的穩定我個人認為郭部長我不期待他只是一位水電部長他是掌握國家經濟發展的經濟部長這個才是他的正職\n\n15:54.861 --> 16:19.577\n我們共同期待啊但我必須要提醒說假設在重啟核能或者是研發新的這個核電技術上那政府如果消極的話立法院就要積極核管法的修正喔從上個會期就在討論那未來修正通過之後我們就可以跟國際接軌讓核電研議喔那我也希望說這個部分喔院長能夠大力的支持\n\n16:21.872 --> 16:38.630\n院長能夠支持嗎如果立法院修正通過之後行政院是不是還要再提復議我再說說明只要是合乎憲法的規定而且經過充分的討論民主的程序我也來自立法院對立法院的尊重\n\n16:39.431 --> 17:02.119\n我跟歷任的院長都一樣好謝謝院長那我接下來想要問有關於這個農業部針對農保資格大規模清查的這件事情不曉得院長知不知道這個農業部最近在清查這個農保資格是這好像他們的一般的業務之一嘛請部長說明\n\n17:02.859 --> 17:28.458\n我跟委員報告這次農保清查不是說第一次我們持續都有清查然後是根據監察院審計部要求來清查有關於天然災害領埔的跟農保地的差異所以你農業部並沒有主動想要清查的意思是嗎都是別人逼你的意思嗎我們的清查就是例行上都有清查因為農保就是一種從事農業工作的在職的社會保護\n\n17:29.318 --> 17:51.563\n所以現在其實呢您開始清查之後讓基層的農民可以說是人心惶惶大家都非常的害怕部分農民可能面臨失去農保資格的風險那他一生耕耘那麼認真那麼辛苦風雨無阻地種植糧食然後養活這麼多的人民結果今天\n\n17:52.603 --> 18:04.528\n可能他們年老體衰因為配合很多政府的政策被告知說你不再是農民了你的農保資格取消了請問部長你覺得這樣對得起為台灣農業奉獻一輩子的農民嗎我要跟委員報告就是我們這次的清查是在65歲以下的我們並沒有針對65歲以上的農民來做清查\n\n18:18.894 --> 18:38.414\n另外一個方式就是65歲以上的農民他即使把地租出去他的農保地不需要到一分地所以這個完全沒有問題我不是不知道但是你要想假設是65歲以前那更可憐\n\n18:40.267 --> 18:56.633\n那就代表說他以後可能領不到老農年金了他就不符合老農年金的資格了那影響不是比你清查65歲以下的還大嗎我要跟委員說明他如果沒有農地他就沒有從事農業當初他們配合政府政策說你把電租出給這個光電業者\n\n19:04.116 --> 19:27.771\n或者您每天在講的一期二轉三加三裡面是不是鼓勵小地主把地都租給大電農這個部分怎麼辦我要跟委員說明漁電共生一個非常重要的前提就是以農為本綠能是加值的所以他還是要從事農業我不是說我不是只有針對農漁電共生我是針對整體的綠能政策嘛那這個部分\n\n19:33.715 --> 19:42.227\n很多農民也許住在台北或都市的百姓會覺得哇你農民怎麼這麼貪心啊你又要租金然後你又要這個保險\n\n19:43.891 --> 20:07.450\n他們真的不是貪心他們是真的不知道他們的權益受損我希望部長能夠站在這些農民的角色其實呢我真的是對事不對人啊我也知道說部長是一個很認真的這個工作在這個很認真的官員可是呢我必須要講你不能整天\n\n20:08.271 --> 20:34.091\n把你的精神都用在跟立法委員打嘴狗都用在跟立法委員爭辯我們提出的這個需求是真的來自地方基層他們需要我不是希望說我今天鬥嘴贏過你我也不是希望說今天政治鬥爭我能贏過你我是希望說你要站在他們的立場\n\n20:35.452 --> 21:00.289\n來幫助他們啊幫助這些農民啊否則這些農民我告訴你他接到公文他真的是跑到農會去問我跟你說那是晴天霹靂他欲哭無淚那這些真的無助的農民院長你覺得他應該怎麼辦呢我跟委員說沒有沒有我問院長院長這些無助的農民怎麼辦農委會沒有要backup他們農委會沒有要支持他們現行的政策是你土地農民的土地\n\n21:00.993 --> 21:18.524\n出租給業者進行光電的合作只要他還有從事農業的生產是不會影響到任何農民的權益但你如果完全都把它放棄了跟我們現在的政策是有所不符那我必須在這裡跟這個院長還有部長講其實呢\n\n21:22.472 --> 21:43.630\n我不知道是不是農業部裡面有一些官員說實在是相當的冷血有很多農會幫這些農民在陳情、在說明的時候你知道嗎?我只是不希望今天把它秀出來我覺得實在是太心酸了\n\n21:45.618 --> 22:02.971\n那個計政就直接跟那個農會講啊他說他都已經可以領老農年金了他沒有領上上補助費反正他死了也領不到這種話說得出口你覺得這有把農民放在心上嗎說這種話的官員如果是有官員說這種話是不對的我想我們會針對\n\n22:04.512 --> 22:32.176\n這些可能的這些有疑慮的我們會逐一的去了解而且能夠幫忙他確保農保的身份這是第一要件所以他未來是一定是一個個案的實際的去審查是所以部長我真心的在這裡呼籲你真的放下那些政治鬥爭的心放下那些只想要到罪過的心我們一起來為農民爭取他們的權益守護他們你做得到嗎\n\n22:32.836 --> 22:47.450\n我想我覺得做得到如果很多外界的那個批評是真實的我們一定虛心接受如果它是一個錯假的話我們一定會做一個澄清各位我們在農漁的合作上面我始終強調農漁優先農漁優先\n\n22:51.997 --> 23:06.605\n官員有沒有剛剛委員有講的那一段話我們要告訴官員講這段話是不對的是要告訴官員不可以講這種的話嚴厲的要求農業優先是政府永遠不變的定律\n\n23:07.445 --> 23:24.841\n謝謝因為真的他們是非常弱勢的一名他們根本是沒有辦法去理解他們的權益在哪裡他們失去了他們權益他們也求助無門所以今天我必須代表農漁民在這裡轉達他們的心聲幫他們澄清那我也在這裡懇求院長漁店農店\n\n23:29.059 --> 23:56.141\n一定要動漲假設今年再漲店家的話我們農業的用電漁業的用電一定要比照去年喔繼續動漲可不可以拜託院長因為很多大企業說實在你漲店家你只是傷他的皮膚你只是傷他的皮毛可是如果你漲我們農業的用電你漲我們漁業的用電我們有很多農家子弟很多農民的下一代他可能下個學期他就繳不起學費了今年\n\n23:58.806 --> 24:12.350\n如何會不會漲還是電價審議委員會但是過去有漲農業部我們都有電價補貼可以讓他的負擔減輕很多我跟委員報告就是就算電價有槓農業部會針對這個差價的部分做補貼這樣以今年來講我們就補貼了25億\n\n24:17.594 --> 24:41.663\n是謝謝那我再一次呼籲希望說這個農保的審查能夠放寬能夠真的搞不好可以重新再怎麼樣來調整讓這些可能受到傷害或者是有危險的就是有風險的有失去農保風險的這些農民可以有補健的機會有補救的機會這一點部長可以承諾嗎\n\n24:42.403 --> 25:04.035\n我們一直在這樣做就是在農會在審查的時候我們會個案如果他有一些可以補件的部分可以修正的部分我們會盡量來協助但本席擔心的是可能部裡面只有部長這樣想不會你下面的人多嚴格你知道嗎我有多少的例子你知道嗎我會特別的要求我支持部長審查當然要據實\n\n25:05.516 --> 25:28.451\n當然一定要展現我們對農民關懷的溫暖給他們一點寬容這個一定要出來而且從人性的這個角度來關懷農民關懷漁民這個一定要統領下去所有的同仁一定要這樣做到拜託院長了也拜託部長那接下來我因為時間也剩不多我想要問一下部長有關於我們斗六這個鐵路高架化\n\n25:35.660 --> 25:59.228\n我們這個斗六市雲林縣的行政中心那市區內的鐵路貫穿有九處的平交道每年發生多起的事故那不僅威脅了人民的生命安全那也嚴重影響了我們的城市發展那形成一個長久以來的一個瓶頸那攸關雲林縣的重要建設早在這個\n\n26:01.689 --> 26:24.696\n11年3月17就通過了交通部的鐵道局的初審那經歷了多次的這個審查上次本席也在這裡問過您那終於在6月解決了一曲率半徑二效益評估三臨時平交道的三大關卡已經送進去這個交通部審查了然而過去了9個月\n\n26:25.956 --> 26:47.834\n原地踏步毫無進展那去年十月呢我也向卓院長詢問過此案的進度那我想要知道說就是這樣的拖延究竟是有什麼有行政帶拓呢還是有其他的考量是否有具體的時程因為等六人喔已經等了三十年了還要再等多久院長\n\n26:50.772 --> 27:12.746\n目前的程序上面其實您剛剛所說的都是正確那現在因為他這個路線不佳跟重波不佳的原因我們還在做研究當中因為重波不佳會影響到未來的整體的安全性還有就是他整個爬坡的那個耗損性那這個部分其實會是長期的影響我們希望把這個問題先解決完之後我們再進入下一個步驟當然我知道委員\n\n27:13.627 --> 27:23.221\n一直在爭取啦地方上的委員大家都在爭取斗六的這個鐵道的高價化那我們會積極來推動不過現在工程上面的問題我覺得你剛剛就講到重點了就是這個是安全的問題喔就是\n\n27:28.568 --> 27:55.380\n根據了解本案內環橋路段設計的坡度是千分之十四點八七然後完全符合你這個交通部鐵道局軌道工程設計的注意事項規定的最大坡度不得超過千分之二十五那這個整個本案的線型調整跟設計早就跟台鐵公司充分協商並取得同意符合這個專業標準\n\n27:57.361 --> 28:08.748\n那為什麼交通部在這個月又推翻了這個設計導致這個計畫遲遲無法推動呢我們的審議委員如果有提出不一樣的意見的時候我們都必須要審慎去面對\n\n28:10.250 --> 28:34.215\n我必須要說的是鐵道高架化這個是很長遠的一個建設如果要做就要把它做好所以我們現在也正在研議說該用什麼樣的方法我現在比較擔心的是是不是有選舉考量難道是因為本席上任不到半年就解決了這個卡關30年的問題導致有人刻意從中作梗然後阻礙斗六的發展\n\n28:35.015 --> 28:54.211\n把自己的利益放在民眾跟國家的利益之上報告委員這個是專業的工程上面的問題跟選舉其實不會有任何關係報告委員你放心不會有選舉的考量不會有政黨的考量不會有個人的考量真的我也不希望是我個人的原因耶是不是也不希望是選舉的原因不希望是政治的原因\n\n28:54.631 --> 29:14.217\n希望真的站在這個百姓的立場所以這一點我得到這個院長跟部長的承諾那假設部長說要講專業我就提幾個案子因為部長也是來自台中嘛那台中的鐵路高降化的計畫它的全線波度是介於一點千分之1.8跟\n\n29:16.197 --> 29:44.895\n時期那所以其實台中包括這個大慶車站立體交會處的波度是達到千分之十七是高於斗六的那為什麼至今已經營運多年也沒有任何問題那斗六其實設計的波度更小更安全卻能被卡關呢因為斗六這邊這個問題應該是可以解決的我們目前也在研議當中所以這個解決的方案應該很快就出來\n\n29:45.771 --> 30:01.911\n是拜託部長了因為競速我想相同的專業問題不可能也不應該有不同的結果怎麼會相同的這個波度甚至更小當初台中可以結果我們斗六不可以\n\n30:03.372 --> 30:22.808\n這個就是會讓人家有不好的一個聯想所以這一點我一定要特別拜託院長拜託部長30年的等待有多少家庭因為交通事故然後被毀了有多少地方發展因為受限只能無奈限縮我們看到其他的城市\n\n30:31.227 --> 30:37.719\n好謝謝張家俊委員質詢謝謝卓院長各部會首長的備詢接下來我們請登記\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.137,"end":8.798,"text":"院長我想請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢各位好"},{"start":20.657,"end":48.259,"text":"主委院長早安那我想喔大家的問題喔真的是非常的多那其實大家的這個初衷喔都是希望說我們台灣能夠更好我們的民生喔能夠更穩定那我想要請教院長啊就是近期喔在這個報紙上面喔傳的這個新聞媒體上面傳的沸沸揚揚的這個非綠賓購買綠電這一件事情喔不曉得部長有沒有跟您"},{"start":50.024,"end":51.653,"text":"這個報告過他的評估的結果"},{"start":53.263,"end":81.337,"text":"在歷次的會議當中有碰觸到這些個問題部長也有他的想法但一切都是在還要取得更多的這個雙方的合作或者意願那現在來看目前這個事情還不到一個最成熟的階段請部長說明所以可以請教院長報告委員我想這件事情呢等等等等我要請教院長我要請教院長院長請問這是您支持的嗎這個方向您是支持的嗎"},{"start":81.997,"end":98.753,"text":"如果我們可以從任何的地方方式取得成本足以我們負擔而且國內需求的所有的能源不管從什麼方向 什麼地方 什麼方式都是我們在嘗試的方向之一"},{"start":99.153,"end":125.315,"text":"那我是不是來跟院長說一下第一就是去年十月在部長提出這個菲律賓重電的想法之後呢其實外界是多有批評但是近日看經濟部的這個台菲電力合作評估報告的結果顯示第一呢短期內是沒有辦法蓋海底電纜的那要用電池船運回來每度電要5.5元"},{"start":127.116,"end":151.876,"text":"那長期要建設這個呂宋海峽的電纜能源署自己都說現階段而言呢不管是成本、技術、法規面都有待克服那更存在著這個地緣政治的風險那這明明代表像菲律賓購買綠電是有風險的然而昨天經濟部自己發了一個新聞稿"},{"start":153.337,"end":175.192,"text":"結論就是在菲律賓蓋電廠是具有可行性的那目標價是4塊錢所以4塊錢是您所說的合理的電價嗎部長說明報告委員4塊錢是我說的我們大概高於4塊錢就向外部買這個綠電是沒有意義的"},{"start":176.775,"end":195.062,"text":"所以我們在評估這份報告是在做可行性評估也就是說要進行這件事情我們必須要先了解是否可行所以你意思就是說現在估計每度電要5.5元就是不可行的意思囉不是喔"},{"start":196.562,"end":215.969,"text":"他們所引述的資料是日本現在的船載的這些儲能櫃所送的電的容量算出來一度電需要五塊五毛錢但是五塊五是你不能接受的當然不能接受那個是指日本"},{"start":220.231,"end":238.726,"text":"然後現行因為現在只有日本這樣的一個例可以來做評估但是實際上以我們所了解的程度以我們現在所評估的程度在兩年以後這個成本會大幅下降到四分之一"},{"start":239.975,"end":264.12,"text":"所以這個是符合我們在評估的部分我現在比較擔心的是說這個是不是先畫標靶然後再設建就是說你明明就已經決定一定要去菲律賓買綠墊了所以你才訂了這個目標價還是像卓院長講的說只要是合理的價錢不管來自哪裡你都會買"},{"start":267.122,"end":286.862,"text":"是這樣嗎?你是說是你目標一定要這樣做嗎?你說這個菲律賓,我是菲律賓協議我們最近...政府過去花了數千億投入這個綠能,結果我們台灣現在還要向菲律賓買綠電,然後這次是代表我們的能源政策失敗呢?"},{"start":287.483,"end":315.024,"text":"就台灣不是一直在強調能源轉型呢怎麼會轉到最後我們連自己的電都不夠還要去向菲律賓買電然後一直在想說能源要自主結果現在我們朝向進口電力這不是自相矛盾嗎不是現在的區域經濟學非常明確的告訴我們每一個國家它的要素餅富是不一樣的"},{"start":316.352,"end":328.178,"text":"這個經濟學只要懂的人都非常清楚這個是一個很明顯的自相矛盾之外難道台灣的企業未來還得靠等船運來才能用電"},{"start":329.707,"end":347.589,"text":"菲律賓本身它就是一個電網不穩定的國家常常發生停電台灣的能源安全卻要去依賴它部長你能夠保證這起交易不會成為下一個危機嗎你所談的這一個部分是目前的現象"},{"start":348.53,"end":361.137,"text":"我們經過可行性評估了解以後為什麼他電會那麼貴是他的電網費用非常的高但是至於他的這個深層的你是台灣的經濟部長不是菲律賓的經濟部長你不需要為菲律賓的這個電價現狀來做說明那我只想問不只是院長部長"},{"start":371.602,"end":385.626,"text":"其實全世界各國,包括日本、韓國、歐洲,都在重啟核電,那來確保能源穩定的時候,台灣卻寧可向菲律賓買綠電用船運來,也不願意討論核能,這樣子是為什麼呢?"},{"start":391.407,"end":416.176,"text":"官委員報告這不是台灣寧可剛剛部長也說明了這是一個可行性的評估評估的內容包括很多種包括這個方式是否可行成本是否可行國內是否需要還有沒有其他的替代方式這個都在評估的過程所以這是一個過程當中我們認為很多的來源很多的方式都足以拿出來討論委員你如果認為有新的核能技術"},{"start":417.156,"end":440.814,"text":"可以讓台灣沒有核安的問題沒有核廢料的處理我們都可以來討論是 我覺得院長這樣子回答就相當理性但我必須要講就是說在部長發這麼多的時間金錢在評估菲律賓的綠電用船運來這件事的同時他是不是也要像院長講的一樣去同時可行性評估"},{"start":444.957,"end":445.598,"text":"報告委員 這些我們都有在評估"},{"start":463.833,"end":482.344,"text":"評估的進度為何為什麼到目前都沒有聽說我們只是一味的聽到說菲律賓買綠電我們怎麼都沒有看到經濟部有這個新聞稿對外說我們現在對於重啟核能的進度或者是研發這個新的核電技術的報告都沒有"},{"start":483.164,"end":506.266,"text":"這個都是我們平常的業務啦也就是說我們是多元的電力的這個必須要使用多元電力的國家所以您剛才所談的這個部分我們當然是都有在這個研討所以你可以看得出來我們雖然已經shut down了這個核電廠的人力但是我們人力都沒有變喔"},{"start":508.747,"end":529.595,"text":"我想這個電價的問題可能院長跟部長都已經被問到滾瓜爛熟了但我還是必須再問一次就是請問我們台灣的核能發電一度電是多少以目前他因為大部分的折救已經折完了所以他的一度電大概是在接近兩塊錢"},{"start":531.683,"end":540.689,"text":"1.4塊所以我就想要代表民眾問院長跟部長我們台灣放著一度電1.4塊的電不用我們要用4塊、5塊、6塊、7塊、8塊甚至一度買11.1塊的電"},{"start":550.199,"end":561.773,"text":"我們現在不是不用 而是說我剛才講的三個前提在前面請問今年是不是要再漲電價是不是要再漲電價"},{"start":568.851,"end":579.264,"text":"店家當然是店家審議委員會啊那店家審議委員會開會的時候他也會收集各方的資料包括社會 包括民生也包括台電的財務狀況那這個就是他們去討論的內容"},{"start":583.07,"end":600.23,"text":"這就是本席想要問院長的院長您知道台電現在的財務狀況嗎你知道他目前虧損多少錢嗎幾乎到達4300億左右了沒錯4229億就代表說就算我們今年再撥補那1000億"},{"start":601.892,"end":628.164,"text":"台電還是虧損啊所以為什麼會覺得說我們三年撥補了他三千億假設今年再撥補他一千億四千億也彌補不了他的虧損甚至還要漲電價所以我想強調兩點第一台電並沒有因為政府撥補就不漲電價第二台電並沒有因為政府撥補或漲電價就停止虧損院長"},{"start":632.038,"end":634.465,"text":"台電不虧損的原因大家都知道"},{"start":636.202,"end":664.861,"text":"戰爭的原因有料上漲補貼的政策這個我們不需要重複了那我們1000億的撥補不是要讓他的解決他的財務問題只是讓他的財務能夠健全一點他少支出一些資本的成本利息能夠減輕一些那麼讓他能夠減輕這方面的負擔那麼就不需要去考慮調整或是調整太大幅度的各項電費是做這樣的平衡而已那如果反過來想"},{"start":668.805,"end":680.516,"text":"你怎麼不支一千億撥補民眾來付漲的電價呢意思是一樣的嘛因為這筆錢都要到台電啊但是感覺不一樣啊"},{"start":682.362,"end":696.521,"text":"電表不一定每個人都背在身上有的有用到電有的就沒有用到電表雖然每個人都會用到電但電表不一定那我們怎麼去計算對這個人他如果沒有再付電費的時候他就沒有收到錢是 我理解但是呢"},{"start":697.182,"end":709.219,"text":"我必須要講現在有很多消息都傳出說這個電價審議委員會這一次這一次這就是我在講的說雖然部長院長都說這個電價審議委員會會決定可是其實呢"},{"start":713.405,"end":742.7,"text":"政府還是有決策的這個角色那大家這個小道消息都傳出來說可能連330度以下的民生用電跟小商家的用電都會調漲那用電大戶可能會漲更多那現在所有的百姓所有的這些民眾大家都在關注所以院長是否可以借今天告訴大家說這次漲電價是否勢在必行"},{"start":743.14,"end":769.345,"text":"那漲幅有可能在什麼樣的range之內我們還是考慮到它的成本的反應市場的穩定還有民生的穩定還有能夠使用者付費還要提倡節約能源這幾項原則底下那目前你說的那個多少度數以上以下如何調整至少我這裡還沒有看到現在送來的任何報告所以我們也沒有任何的討論"},{"start":771.819,"end":785.068,"text":"目前其實全面漲電價央行就已經說了會造成今年的CPI會破2%的警戒線聽說院長也指示經濟部也要討論水費調漲的方案民眾要面臨的已經不是電價可能會漲可能水費也要漲這等於是水電雙漲"},{"start":800.738,"end":814.411,"text":"院長您有考慮過這對一般小家庭的衝擊嗎當然所以我們很慎重因為水價幾乎是30年沒有調30年沒有調過那現在這個水價是非常的低的"},{"start":815.572,"end":833.303,"text":"也一方面要鼓勵大家能夠節約珍惜這個水資源那也要反映現在每一度水處理的成本那合理的調整是在考慮當中但時機是還沒有決定我們當然希望能夠降低衝擊能夠平衡一點在整個年度當中不要"},{"start":837.166,"end":853.934,"text":"這就是本席想要提醒院長的真的水電雙長的話對於一般小家庭的衝擊太大了一定要去考量說苦民所苦啊他們的一般的生活已經很辛苦了水電雙長那是整個打到腦門子上"},{"start":856.095,"end":878.46,"text":"非常非常的嚴重那另外我也想提醒一下郭部長郭部長我當然知道你有很多雄心壯志但是你知道水電衝擊衝擊的可能不只是民眾還有可能是你個人因為通常有一些慣例就是年終有可能會換隔園有可能會異動那調整這些民生費用可能會變成"},{"start":880.1,"end":907.591,"text":"你要扛下來的責任也有可能是要替換這個格緣的原因所以呢我也希望說這件事情搞不好也會變成你畢業的理由那我當然提醒你啦這個人民最關心的倒不是誰來當官而是自己的生活開銷會不會因此而提高那我在這裡也希望說當然我們政府"},{"start":908.231,"end":935.457,"text":"能夠提供企業穩定用電然後民眾合理的電價讓我們國家在競爭力上面尤其你看我們的最大的這個可能競爭對手韓國他都宣布說在2038年之前他要再蓋四座核能發電廠那我們未來的競爭力在哪裡我們不是還要發展AI嗎我們不是還要發展更多的晶圓廠嗎那電力來源到底在哪裡"},{"start":938.891,"end":953.399,"text":"跟委員報告這個我們會非常審慎的來觀察民生的穩定我個人認為郭部長我不期待他只是一位水電部長他是掌握國家經濟發展的經濟部長這個才是他的正職"},{"start":954.861,"end":979.577,"text":"我們共同期待啊但我必須要提醒說假設在重啟核能或者是研發新的這個核電技術上那政府如果消極的話立法院就要積極核管法的修正喔從上個會期就在討論那未來修正通過之後我們就可以跟國際接軌讓核電研議喔那我也希望說這個部分喔院長能夠大力的支持"},{"start":981.872,"end":998.63,"text":"院長能夠支持嗎如果立法院修正通過之後行政院是不是還要再提復議我再說說明只要是合乎憲法的規定而且經過充分的討論民主的程序我也來自立法院對立法院的尊重"},{"start":999.431,"end":1022.119,"text":"我跟歷任的院長都一樣好 謝謝院長那我接下來想要問有關於這個農業部針對農保資格大規模清查的這件事情不曉得院長知不知道這個農業部最近在清查這個農保資格是 這好像他們的一般的業務之一嘛請部長說明"},{"start":1022.859,"end":1048.458,"text":"我跟委員報告這次農保清查不是說第一次我們持續都有清查然後是根據監察院審計部要求來清查有關於天然災害領埔的跟農保地的差異所以你農業部並沒有主動想要清查的意思是嗎都是別人逼你的意思嗎我們的清查就是例行上都有清查因為農保就是一種從事農業工作的在職的社會保護"},{"start":1049.318,"end":1071.563,"text":"所以現在其實呢您開始清查之後讓基層的農民可以說是人心惶惶大家都非常的害怕部分農民可能面臨失去農保資格的風險那他一生耕耘那麼認真那麼辛苦風雨無阻地種植糧食然後養活這麼多的人民結果今天"},{"start":1072.603,"end":1084.528,"text":"可能他們年老體衰因為配合很多政府的政策被告知說你不再是農民了你的農保資格取消了請問部長你覺得這樣對得起為台灣農業奉獻一輩子的農民嗎我要跟委員報告就是我們這次的清查是在65歲以下的我們並沒有針對65歲以上的農民來做清查"},{"start":1098.894,"end":1118.414,"text":"另外一個方式就是65歲以上的農民他即使把地租出去他的農保地不需要到一分地所以這個完全沒有問題我不是不知道但是你要想假設是65歲以前那更可憐"},{"start":1120.267,"end":1136.633,"text":"那就代表說他以後可能領不到老農年金了他就不符合老農年金的資格了那影響不是比你清查65歲以下的還大嗎我要跟委員說明他如果沒有農地他就沒有從事農業當初他們配合政府政策說你把電租出給這個光電業者"},{"start":1144.116,"end":1167.771,"text":"或者您每天在講的一期二轉三加三裡面是不是鼓勵小地主把地都租給大電農這個部分怎麼辦 我要跟委員說明漁電共生一個非常重要的前提就是以農為本 綠能是加值的所以他還是要從事農業我不是說 我不是只有針對農漁電共生我是針對整體的綠能政策嘛那這個部分"},{"start":1173.715,"end":1182.227,"text":"很多農民也許住在台北或都市的百姓會覺得哇 你農民怎麼這麼貪心啊你又要租金 然後你又要這個保險"},{"start":1183.891,"end":1207.45,"text":"他們真的不是貪心他們是真的不知道他們的權益受損我希望部長能夠站在這些農民的角色其實呢我真的是對事不對人啊我也知道說部長是一個很認真的這個工作在這個很認真的官員可是呢我必須要講你不能整天"},{"start":1208.271,"end":1234.091,"text":"把你的精神都用在跟立法委員打嘴狗都用在跟立法委員爭辯我們提出的這個需求是真的來自地方基層他們需要我不是希望說我今天鬥嘴贏過你我也不是希望說今天政治鬥爭我能贏過你我是希望說你要站在他們的立場"},{"start":1235.452,"end":1260.289,"text":"來幫助他們啊 幫助這些農民啊否則這些農民 我告訴你 他接到公文他真的是跑到農會去問我跟你說 那是晴天霹靂 他欲哭無淚那這些真的無助的農民 院長你覺得他應該怎麼辦呢我跟委員說沒有沒有 我問院長 院長這些無助的農民怎麼辦農委會沒有要back up他們農委會沒有要支持他們現行的政策是 你土地 農民的土地"},{"start":1260.993,"end":1278.524,"text":"出租給業者進行光電的合作只要他還有從事農業的生產是不會影響到任何農民的權益但你如果完全都把它放棄了跟我們現在的政策是有所不符那我必須在這裡跟這個院長還有部長講其實呢"},{"start":1282.472,"end":1303.63,"text":"我不知道是不是農業部裡面有一些官員說實在是相當的冷血有很多農會幫這些農民在陳情、在說明的時候你知道嗎?我只是不希望今天把它秀出來我覺得實在是太心酸了"},{"start":1305.618,"end":1322.971,"text":"那個計政就直接跟那個農會講啊他說他都已經可以領老農年金了他沒有領上上補助費反正他死了也領不到這種話說得出口你覺得這有把農民放在心上嗎說這種話的官員如果是有官員說這種話是不對的我想我們會針對"},{"start":1324.512,"end":1352.176,"text":"這些可能的這些有疑慮的我們會逐一的去了解而且能夠幫忙他確保農保的身份這是第一要件所以他未來是一定是一個個案的實際的去審查是所以部長我真心的在這裡呼籲你真的放下那些政治鬥爭的心放下那些只想要到罪過的心我們一起來為農民爭取他們的權益守護他們你做得到嗎"},{"start":1352.836,"end":1367.45,"text":"我想我覺得做得到 如果很多外界的那個批評是真實的我們一定虛心接受 如果它是一個錯假的話我們一定會做一個澄清各位 我們在農漁的合作上面我始終強調農漁優先農漁優先"},{"start":1371.997,"end":1386.605,"text":"官員有沒有剛剛委員有講的那一段話我們要告訴官員講這段話是不對的是要告訴官員不可以講這種的話嚴厲的要求農業優先是政府永遠不變的定律"},{"start":1387.445,"end":1404.841,"text":"謝謝因為真的他們是非常弱勢的一名他們根本是沒有辦法去理解他們的權益在哪裡他們失去了他們權益他們也求助無門所以今天我必須代表農漁民在這裡轉達他們的心聲幫他們澄清那我也在這裡懇求院長漁店農店"},{"start":1409.059,"end":1436.141,"text":"一定要動漲假設今年再漲店家的話我們農業的用電漁業的用電一定要比照去年喔繼續動漲可不可以拜託院長因為很多大企業說實在你漲店家你只是傷他的皮膚你只是傷他的皮毛可是如果你漲我們農業的用電你漲我們漁業的用電我們有很多農家子弟很多農民的下一代他可能下個學期他就繳不起學費了今年"},{"start":1438.806,"end":1452.35,"text":"如何會不會漲還是電價審議委員會但是過去有漲農業部我們都有電價補貼可以讓他的負擔減輕很多我跟委員報告就是就算電價有槓農業部會針對這個差價的部分做補貼這樣以今年來講我們就補貼了25億"},{"start":1457.594,"end":1481.663,"text":"是謝謝那我再一次呼籲希望說這個農保的審查能夠放寬能夠真的搞不好可以重新再怎麼樣來調整讓這些可能受到傷害或者是有危險的就是有風險的有失去農保風險的這些農民可以有補健的機會有補救的機會這一點部長可以承諾嗎"},{"start":1482.403,"end":1504.035,"text":"我們一直在這樣做就是在農會在審查的時候我們會個案如果他有一些可以補件的部分可以修正的部分我們會盡量來協助但本席擔心的是可能部裡面只有部長這樣想不會你下面的人多嚴格你知道嗎我有多少的例子你知道嗎我會特別的要求我支持部長審查當然要據實"},{"start":1505.516,"end":1528.451,"text":"當然一定要展現我們對農民關懷的溫暖給他們一點寬容這個一定要出來而且從人性的這個角度來關懷農民關懷漁民這個一定要統領下去所有的同仁一定要這樣做到拜託院長了也拜託部長那接下來我因為時間也剩不多我想要問一下部長有關於我們斗六這個鐵路高架化"},{"start":1535.66,"end":1559.228,"text":"我們這個斗六市雲林縣的行政中心那市區內的鐵路貫穿有九處的平交道每年發生多起的事故那不僅威脅了人民的生命安全那也嚴重影響了我們的城市發展那形成一個長久以來的一個瓶頸那攸關雲林縣的重要建設早在這個"},{"start":1561.689,"end":1584.696,"text":"11年3月17就通過了交通部的鐵道局的初審那經歷了多次的這個審查上次本席也在這裡問過您那終於在6月解決了一 曲率半徑二 效益評估三 臨時平交道的三大關卡已經送進去這個交通部審查了然而過去了9個月"},{"start":1585.956,"end":1607.834,"text":"原地踏步毫無進展那去年十月呢我也向卓院長詢問過此案的進度那我想要知道說就是這樣的拖延究竟是有什麼有行政帶拓呢還是有其他的考量是否有具體的時程因為等六人喔已經等了三十年了還要再等多久院長"},{"start":1610.772,"end":1632.746,"text":"目前的程序上面其實您剛剛所說的都是正確那現在因為他這個路線不佳跟重波不佳的原因我們還在做研究當中因為重波不佳會影響到未來的整體的安全性還有就是他整個爬坡的那個耗損性那這個部分其實會是長期的影響我們希望把這個問題先解決完之後我們再進入下一個步驟當然我知道委員"},{"start":1633.627,"end":1643.221,"text":"一直在爭取啦地方上的委員大家都在爭取斗六的這個鐵道的高價化那我們會積極來推動不過現在工程上面的問題我覺得你剛剛就講到重點了就是這個是安全的問題喔就是"},{"start":1648.568,"end":1675.38,"text":"根據了解本案內環橋路段設計的坡度是千分之十四點八七然後完全符合你這個交通部鐵道局軌道工程設計的注意事項規定的最大坡度不得超過千分之二十五那這個整個本案的線型調整跟設計早就跟台鐵公司充分協商並取得同意符合這個專業標準"},{"start":1677.361,"end":1688.748,"text":"那為什麼交通部在這個月又推翻了這個設計導致這個計畫遲遲無法推動呢我們的審議委員如果有提出不一樣的意見的時候我們都必須要審慎去面對"},{"start":1690.25,"end":1714.215,"text":"我必須要說的是鐵道高架化這個是很長遠的一個建設如果要做就要把它做好所以我們現在也正在研議說該用什麼樣的方法我現在比較擔心的是是不是有選舉考量難道是因為本席上任不到半年就解決了這個卡關30年的問題導致有人刻意從中作梗然後阻礙斗六的發展"},{"start":1715.015,"end":1734.211,"text":"把自己的利益放在民眾跟國家的利益之上報告委員 這個是專業的工程上面的問題跟選舉其實不會有任何關係報告委員 你放心不會有選舉的考量不會有政黨的考量不會有個人的考量真的 我也不希望是我個人的原因耶是不是也不希望是選舉的原因不希望是政治的原因"},{"start":1734.631,"end":1754.217,"text":"希望真的站在這個百姓的立場所以這一點我得到這個院長跟部長的承諾那假設部長說要講專業我就提幾個案子因為部長也是來自台中嘛那台中的鐵路高降化的計畫它的全線波度是介於一點千分之1.8跟"},{"start":1756.197,"end":1784.895,"text":"時期那所以其實台中包括這個大慶車站立體交會處的波度是達到千分之十七是高於斗六的那為什麼至今已經營運多年也沒有任何問題那斗六其實設計的波度更小更安全卻能被卡關呢因為斗六這邊這個問題應該是可以解決的我們目前也在研議當中所以這個解決的方案應該很快就出來"},{"start":1785.771,"end":1801.911,"text":"是 拜託部長了因為競速我想相同的專業問題不可能也不應該有不同的結果怎麼會相同的這個波度甚至更小當初台中可以結果我們斗六不可以"},{"start":1803.372,"end":1822.808,"text":"這個就是會讓人家有不好的一個聯想所以這一點我一定要特別拜託院長拜託部長30年的等待有多少家庭因為交通事故然後被毀了有多少地方發展因為受限只能無奈限縮我們看到其他的城市"},{"start":1831.227,"end":1837.719,"text":"好 謝謝張家俊委員質詢 謝謝卓院長 各部會首長的備詢接下來我們請登記"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":90,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（9時17分）院長，我想請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：張委員好。"],["張委員嘉郡：卓院長早安。大家的問題真的是非常多，其實大家的初衷都是希望臺灣能夠更好，我們的民生能夠更穩定。我想要請教院長，近期在報紙上面，新聞媒體傳得沸沸揚揚的向菲律賓購買綠電這一件事情，不曉得部長有沒有跟您報告過他評估的結果？"],["卓院長榮泰：在歷次的會議當中有碰觸到這些問題，部長也有他的想法，但一切都還要取得雙方更多的合作或者意願，現在來看，目前這件事情還不到一個最成熟的階段，請部長說明。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以可以請教院長……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這一件事情我們現在還在做可行性評估……"],["張委員嘉郡：等等、等等，我要請教院長，院長，請問這是您支持的嗎？這個方向您是支持的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果我們可以從任何的地方、方式取得成本足以負擔而且國內需求的所有能源，不管從什麼方向、什麼地方、什麼方式，都是我們在嘗試的方向之一。"],["張委員嘉郡：我是不是來跟院長說一下，第一，去年10月部長提出在菲律賓種電的想法之後，其實外界是多有批評，但是近日看經濟部「台菲電力合作評估報告」的結果顯示，第一，短期內是沒有辦法蓋海底電纜的，要用電池船運回來，每度電要5.5元，長期要建設呂宋海峽的電纜，能源署自己都說，以現階段而言，不管是成本、技術、法規面都有待克服，更存在地緣政治的風險。這明明代表向菲律賓購買綠電是有風險的，然而昨天經濟部自己發了一個新聞稿，結論就是在菲律賓蓋電廠是具有可行性的，目標價是4塊錢，所以4塊錢是您所說的合理的電價嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長說明。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，4塊錢是我說的，我們向外部買綠電大概高於4塊錢是沒有意義的，所以這份報告是在做可行性評估，也就是說，要進行這件事情我們必須要先了解是否可行，現在我們認為在那個地方……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你的意思是說現在估計每度電要5.5元就是不可行的意思？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，報告委員，他們所引述的資料是日本現在船載的這一些儲能櫃所送的電的容量算出來一度電需要5塊5毛錢，但是……"],["張委員嘉郡：5.5元是你不能接受的，你希望能夠4塊以下？"],["郭部長智輝：當然不能接受，那個是指日本，因為現在只有日本這樣的一個例子可以來做評估，但是實際上，以我們所了解的程度、以我們現在所評估的程度，在2年以後，成本會大幅下降到四分之一，所以這個是符合我們評估的部分。"],["張委員嘉郡：我現在比較擔心的是說這個是不是先畫標靶，然後再射箭，就是說你明明就已經決定一定要去菲律賓買綠電了，所以你才訂了這個目標價，還是是像卓院長講的只要是合理的價錢，不管來自哪裡，你都會買？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員嘉郡：是這樣嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：合理的價格……"],["張委員嘉郡：你是說你目標一定要這樣做嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：你說菲律賓，菲律賓是離我們最近……"],["張委員嘉郡：沒有，我是要講政府過去花了數千億投入綠能，結果臺灣現在還要向菲律賓買綠電，這是不是代表我們的能源政策失敗呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我們在做可行性評估。"],["張委員嘉郡：臺灣不是一直在強調能源轉型？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["張委員嘉郡：怎麼會轉到最後我們連自己的電都不夠，還要去向菲律賓買電？一直在講說能源要自主，結果現在我們朝向進口電力，這不是自相矛盾嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，報告委員……"],["張委員嘉郡：不是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：現在的區域經濟學非常明確的告訴我們，每一個國家的要素稟賦是不一樣的，這個經濟學只要懂的人都非常的清楚。"],["張委員嘉郡：我必須要講，這是一個很明顯的自相矛盾之外，難道臺灣的企業未來還得靠等船運來才能用電？菲律賓本身就是一個電網不穩定的國家，常常發生停電，臺灣的能源安全卻要去依賴它，部長，你能夠保證這筆交易不會成為下一個危機嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，你所談的這一個部分是目前的現象，我們經過可行性評估了解以後，為什麼它電費那麼貴，是它的電網費用非常的高……"],["張委員嘉郡：部長……"],["郭部長智輝：但是，至於它生成的造創電成本並沒有那麼高……"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，您是臺灣的經濟部長，不是菲律賓的經濟部長，你不需要為菲律賓的電價現狀來做說明。","我只想問，不只是院長、部長，其實全世界各國，包括日本、韓國、歐洲都在重啟核電來確保能源穩定的時候，臺灣卻寧可向菲律賓買綠電用船運來，也不願意討論核能，是為什麼呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，這不是臺灣寧可，剛剛部長也說明了這是一個可行性的評估，評估的內容包括很多種，包括這個方式是否可行、成本是否可行、國內是否需要、有沒有其他的替代方式，這個都在評估的過程，所以這是一個過程當中，我們認為很多的來源、很多的方式都足以拿出來討論。","委員，你如果認為有新的核能技術，可以讓臺灣沒有核安的問題、沒有核廢料的處理，我們都可以來討論。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，我覺得院長這樣子回答就相當理性，但我必須要講，在部長花這麼多的時間、金錢在評估菲律賓的綠電用船運來這件事的同時，是不是也要像院長講的一樣，同時去可行性評估新的核電技術是不是已經有在執行了？我們要重啟核能、或者是對新的核電技術、新的處理核廢料的技術等等，這個你有做可行性評估嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這些我們都有在評估，我們……"],["張委員嘉郡：評估的進度為何？為什麼我們到目前都沒有聽說？我們只是一味的聽到說向菲律賓買綠電，我們怎麼都沒有看到經濟部有新聞稿對外說我們現在對於重啟核能的進度或者是研發新的核電技術的報告，都沒有！"],["郭部長智輝：這個都是我們平常的業務，也就是說，我們是必須要使用多元電力的國家，所以您剛才所談的這個部分我們當然都有在研討，因此你可以看得出來，我們雖然已經shut down了核電廠的人力，但是我們人力都沒有變，我們人力都在處理……"],["張委員嘉郡：我想電價的問題可能院長跟部長都已經被問到滾瓜爛熟了，但我還是必須再問一次，請問臺灣的核能發電一度電是多少？"],["郭部長智輝：因為它大部分的折舊已經折完了，所以目前它的一度電大概是接近2塊錢。"],["張委員嘉郡：1.4塊，所以我就想要代表民眾問院長跟部長，臺灣放著一度1.4塊的電不用，我們要用4塊、5塊、6塊、7塊、8塊，甚至買一度11.1塊的電……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["張委員嘉郡：那這樣子台電當然要虧損啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在不是不用，而是我剛才講的3個前提在前面……"],["張委員嘉郡：我接下來想問院長，請問今年是不是要再漲電價？"],["郭部長智輝：漲不漲電價不是……"],["張委員嘉郡：院長，是不是要再漲電價？"],["卓院長榮泰：電價當然是由電價審議委員會決定，電價審議委員會開會的時候，它也會蒐集各方的資料，包括社會、包括民生，也包括台電的財務狀況，這個就是他們去討論的內容。"],["張委員嘉郡：這就是本席想要問院長的，院長，您知道台電現在的財務狀況嗎？你知道它目前虧損多少錢嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：幾乎到達4,300億左右了。"],["張委員嘉郡：沒錯！4,229億，這代表就算今年再撥補那1,000億，台電還是虧損啊！所以為什麼會覺得說我們3年撥補了它3,000億，假設今年再撥補它1,000億，4,000億也彌補不了它的虧損，甚至還要漲電價。因此我想強調兩點，第一、台電並沒有因為政府撥補就不漲電價；第二、台電並沒有因為政府撥補或漲電價就停止虧損，院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，台電虧損的原因大家都知道，有戰爭的原因、油料上漲、補貼的政策，這個我們不需要重複了。我們1,000億的撥補不是要解決它的財務問題，只是讓它的財務能夠健全一點，讓它少支出一些資本的成本，利息能夠減輕一些，讓它能夠減輕這方面的負擔，就不需要去考慮調整或是調整太大幅度的各項電費，是做這樣的平衡而已。"],["張委員嘉郡：那如果反過來想，同樣要花這1,000億，你怎麼不將這1,000億撥補民眾來付漲的電價呢？意思是一樣的嘛！因為這筆錢都要到台電，但是感覺不一樣啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：但是電表不一定每個人都揹在身上，有的有用到電表，有的就沒有用到電表，雖然每個人都會用到電，但電表不一定，那我們怎麼去計算，對於這個人，他如果沒有在付電費的時候，他就沒有受到……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，我理解，但是我必須要講，現在有很多消息都傳出說電價審議委員會這一次……這就是我在講的，雖然部長、院長都說電價審議委員會會決定，可是其實政府還是有決策的角色，大家的小道消息都傳出來說可能連330度以下的民生用電跟小商家的用電都會調漲，用電大戶可能會漲更多。現在所有的百姓、所有的民眾大家都在關注，所以院長是否可以藉由今天來告訴大家說這一次漲電價是否勢在必行，漲幅有可能在什麼樣的range之內？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還是考慮到它的成本反應、市場的穩定、民生的穩定、能夠使用者付費及提倡節約能源，在這幾項原則底下。目前你說的，如多少度數以上、以下如何調整，至少我這裡現在還沒有看到送來的任何報告，所以我們也沒有任何的討論。"],["張委員嘉郡：了解。目前其實全面漲電價，央行就已經說了，會造成今年的CPI破2%的警戒線。聽說院長也指示經濟部要討論水費調漲的方案。民眾要面臨的已經不是電價可能會漲，水費可能也要漲，這等於是水電雙漲。院長，您有考慮過這對一般小家庭的衝擊嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然，所以我們很慎重，因為水價幾乎是30年沒有調過，現在的水價是非常低的，一方面要鼓勵大家能夠節約、珍惜水資源，另一方面也要反映現在每一度水處理的成本。合理的調整是在考慮當中，但是時機還沒有決定，我們當然希望能夠降低衝擊，能夠平衡一點，在整個年度當中不要一次造成大家在心理上及財務上的負擔。"],["張委員嘉郡：這就是本席想要提醒院長的，真的水電雙漲的話，對於一般小家庭的衝擊太大了！"],["卓院長榮泰：了解。"],["張委員嘉郡：一定要去考量這個，要苦民所苦，民眾一般的生活已經很辛苦了，水電雙漲，那是整個打到腦門子上，非常非常的嚴重！另外，我也想提醒一下郭部長，郭部長，我當然知道你有很多雄心壯志，但是你知道水電衝擊的可能不只是民眾，還有可能是你個人，因為通常有一些慣例，就是年中有可能會換閣員，有可能會異動。調漲這些民生費用，可能會變成是你要扛下來的責任，也有可能是要替換閣員的原因，所以這件事情搞不好也會變成你畢業的理由。當然，我提醒您，人民最關心的倒不是誰來當官，而是自己的生活開銷會不會因此而提高，我在這裡也希望，政府能夠提供企業穩定用電、民眾合理的電價，讓我們國家在競爭力上面……尤其你看我們最大的可能競爭對手──韓國，都宣布在2038年之前要再蓋4座核能發電廠。那我們未來的競爭力在哪裡？我們不是還要發展AI嗎？我們不是還要發展更多的晶圓廠嗎？電力來源到底在哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我們會非常審慎地來觀察民生的穩定，我個人認為，郭部長，我不期待他只是一位水電部長，他是掌握國家經濟發展的經濟部長，這個才是他的正職。"],["張委員嘉郡：我們共同期待，但我必須要提醒，假設在重啟核能，或者是研發新的核電技術上，政府如果消極的話，立法院就要積極。核管法的修正從上個會期就在討論，未來修正通過之後，我們就可以跟國際接軌，讓核電延役，我也希望這個部分院長能夠大力的支持，院長能夠支持嗎？如果立法院修正通過之後，行政院是不是還要再提覆議？"],["卓院長榮泰：我再次說明，只要是合乎憲法的規定，而且經過充分的討論、民主的程序。我也來自立法院，對立法院的尊重，我跟歷任的院長都一樣。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，謝謝院長。我接下來想要問有關農業部針對農保資格大規模清查的這件事情，不曉得院長知不知道農業部最近在清查農保資格？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，有聽說，這好像是他們的一般業務之一，請部長說明。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，這次農保清查不是第一次，我們持續都有清查，是根據監察院、審計部要求，來清查有關天然災害領補跟農保地差異的部分。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以農業部並沒有主動想要清查的意思，是嗎？都是別人逼你的意思嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我們在例行上都有清查，因為農保就是一種從事農業工作的在職社會保險。"],["張委員嘉郡：當然，所以現在您開始清查之後，讓基層的農民可以說是人心惶惶，大家都非常的害怕，部分農民可能面臨失去農保資格的風險，他一生耕耘那麼認真、那麼辛苦，風雨無阻的種植糧食，養活這麼多的人民，結果今天可能他們年老體衰，因為配合很多政府的政策，被告知你不再是農民了，你的農保資格取消了。請問部長，你覺得這樣對得起為臺灣農業奉獻一輩子的農民嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我要跟委員報告，我們這次的清查是針對65歲以下的，我們並沒有針對65歲以上的農民做清查，另外65歲以上的農民即使把地租出去，他的農保地不需要到一分地，所以這個部分完全沒有問題。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，這些你講的我都知道，我不是不知道，但是你要想，假設是65歲以前，那更可憐，就代表他以後可能領不到老農年金了……"],["陳部長駿季：不是，他如果沒有農地……"],["張委員嘉郡：他就不符合老農年金的資格了，影響不是比你清查65歲以上的還大嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我要跟委員說明，他如果沒有農地，就沒有從事農業，沒有從事農業，就沒有農保資格。"],["張委員嘉郡：當初他們配合政府政策，把地出租給光電業者，或者您每天在講的「1集、2轉、3加3」，裡面是不是鼓勵小地主把地都租給大佃農，這個部分要怎麼辦呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，漁電共生一個非常重要的前提就是以農為本，綠能是加值的，所以他還是要從事農業，只要從事農業就不會有農保資格的問題。"],["張委員嘉郡：我不是只有針對農漁電共生，我是針對整體的綠能政策嘛！很多農民……也許住在臺北或都市的百姓會覺得農民怎麼這麼貪心啊！又要租金然後又要保險，他們真的不是貪心，他們是真的不知道他們的權益受損，我希望部長能夠站在這些農民的角度，其實我真的是對事不對人，我也知道部長是一個很認真的官員，可是我必須要講，你不能整天把精神都用在跟立法委員鬥嘴，都用在跟立法委員爭辯。我們提出的需求是真的來自地方基層，他們需要，我不是希望今天鬥嘴贏過你，我也不是希望今天政治鬥爭能贏過你，我是希望你要站在他們的立場來幫助他們，幫助這些農民啊！否則我告訴你，這些農民接到公文，他真的是跑到農會去問，我跟你說那是晴天霹靂，他欲哭無淚。這些無助的農民，院長覺得他應該怎麼辦呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明……"],["張委員嘉郡：沒有，我問院長，院長，這些無助的農民怎麼辦？農業部沒有要幫他們，農業部沒有要支持他們！"],["卓院長榮泰：現行的政策是農民的土地出租給業者進行光電的合作，只要他還有從事農業的生產……"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：是不會影響到任何農民的權益，但你如果完全都把它放棄了，跟我們現在的政策是有所不符。"],["張委員嘉郡：我必須在這裡跟院長還有部長講，其實農業部裡面有一些官員，說實在是相當的冷血，有很多農會幫這些農民在陳情、在說明的時候，你知道嗎？我只是不希望今天把它show出來，我覺得實在是太心酸了。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我了解。"],["張委員嘉郡：技正就直接跟農會講，他都已經可以領老農年金了，他沒有領喪葬補助費，反正他死了也領不到，這種話說得出口？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得這種話……"],["張委員嘉郡：你覺得這樣有把農民放在心上嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：說這種話的官員，如果有官員說這種話是不對的，我們會針對這些可能有疑慮的逐一去了解，而且能夠幫忙他確保農保的身分，這是第一要件，所以未來一定是個案的、實際的去審查。"],["張委員嘉郡：是。所以部長，我真心在這裡呼籲你，放下那些政治鬥爭的心，放下那些只想要鬥嘴的心，我們一起來為農民爭取他們的權益，守護他們，你做得到嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我絕對做得到，如果很多外界批評是真實的，我們一定虛心接受，如果它是錯假的話，我們一定會做一個澄清。"],["張委員嘉郡：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們在農漁合作上面，我始終強調農漁優先。"],["張委員嘉郡：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以不管有沒有剛剛委員講的那一段話，我們要告訴官員，不是講這一段話是不對的，而是要告訴官員不可以講這種話。"],["張委員嘉郡：謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：要嚴厲的要求，農漁優先是政府永遠不變的定律。"],["張委員嘉郡：謝謝，因為他們真的是非常弱勢，他們根本沒有辦法理解他們的權益在哪裡，失去了權益也求助無門，所以今天我必須代表農漁民在這裡轉達他們的心聲，幫他們陳情。我也在這裡懇求院長，漁電、農電一定要凍漲，假設今年再漲電價的話，我們農業的用電、漁業的用電一定要比照去年繼續凍漲，可不可以拜託院長？因為說實在的，很多大企業被漲電價只是傷到它的皮膚、只是傷到它的皮毛，可是如果你漲農業用電、漁業用電，有很多農家子弟、很多農民的下一代可能下個學期就繳不起學費了。"],["卓院長榮泰：今年會不會漲還是由電價審議委員會討論，但是過去有漲的話，農業部都有提供電價補貼，可以讓他們的負擔減輕很多。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，就算電價有漲，農業部會針對差價的部分做補貼，以今年來講就補貼了25億。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，謝謝。我再次呼籲，希望農保的審查能夠放寬，搞不好可以重新再做怎麼樣的調整，讓這些可能受到傷害或者是有危險的，也就是有失去農保風險的這些農民可以有補件的機會、有補救的機會，這一點部長可以承諾嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們一直在這樣做，農會在審查時會個案處理，如果他們有一些可以補件、可以修正的部分，我們會儘量來協助。"],["張委員嘉郡：但本席擔心的是，可能部裡面只有部長這樣想……"],["陳部長駿季：不會……"],["張委員嘉郡：你下面的人多嚴格，你知道嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我會特別要求。"],["張委員嘉郡：我有多少的例子，你知道嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我會特別的要求。"],["卓院長榮泰：我會支持部長，審查當然要據實。"],["張委員嘉郡：當然。"],["卓院長榮泰：一定要展現我們對農民關懷的溫暖……"],["張委員嘉郡：給他們一點寬容。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個一定要出來，而且從人性的角度來關懷農民、關懷漁民，這個一定要通令下去，所有的同仁一定要這樣做到。"],["張委員嘉郡：拜託院長了，也拜託部長。","接下來因為時間也剩不多了，我想要問一下部長有關於斗六鐵路高架化，斗六是雲林縣的行政中心，市區內的鐵路貫穿，有9處平交道，每年發生多起事故，不僅威脅了人民的生命安全，也嚴重影響了我們的城市發展，形成長久以來的瓶頸，是攸關雲林縣的重要建設，早在111年3月17日就通過了交通部鐵道局的初審，經歷了多次的審查，上次本席也在這裡問過您，終於在6月解決了一、曲率半徑；二、效益評估；三、臨時平交道，這三大關卡已經送進去交通部審查了，然而過去9個月卻原地踏步、毫無進展。去年10月我也向卓院長詢問過此案的進度，我想要知道這樣的拖延究竟是有行政怠惰還是有其他的考量？是否有具體的時程？因為斗六人已經等了30年了，還要再等多久？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前在程序上面，其實您剛剛所說的都是正確，現在因為它路線不佳跟縱坡不佳的原因，我們還在做研究當中，縱坡不佳會影響未來整體的安全性，還有爬坡的耗損性，這個部分其實會是長期的影響，我們希望把這個問題先解決完之後再進入下一個步驟，當然我知道委員一直在爭取，地方上大家也都在爭取斗六的鐵道高架化，我們會積極來推動，不過現在工程上面的問題……"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，我覺得你剛剛講到重點了，這個是安全的問題。根據了解，本案內環橋路段設計的坡度是千分之十四點八七，完全符合交通部鐵道局軌道工程設計注意事項所規定的最大坡度不得超過千分之二十五，而本案的線型調整跟設計早就跟臺鐵公司充分協商，並取得同意，符合專業標準，為什麼交通部這個月又推翻了設計，導致計畫遲遲無法推動？"],["陳部長世凱：審議委員如果提出不一樣的意見時，我們都必須審慎面對。我必須要說的是，鐵道高架化是一個很長遠的建設，如果要做就要把它做好。所以我們現在也正在研議，看有什麼樣的方法……"],["張委員嘉郡：我現在比較擔心是不是有選舉考量？難道是因為本席上任不到半年就解決了這個卡關30年的問題，導致有人刻意從中作梗，阻礙斗六發展，把自己的利益放在民眾跟國家的利益之上？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這是專業的工程問題，跟選舉其實不會有任何……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員放心，不會有選舉考量、不會有政黨考量、不會有個人的考量！"],["張委員嘉郡：謝謝。我真的也不希望是我個人的原因……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會的。"],["張委員嘉郡：是不是？也不希望是選舉的原因、不希望是政治的原因，希望能真的站在百姓的立場，所以這一點我希望能得到院長跟部長的承諾。既然部長要講專業，我就提幾個案子為例。部長來自臺中，臺中鐵路高架化計畫的全線坡度介於千分之一點八跟十七之間，而臺中大慶車站立體交會處的坡度達到千分之十七，高於斗六。該站至今已經營運多年，沒有任何問題，而斗六設計的坡度其實更小、更安全，卻被卡關？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，斗六的這個問題應該是可以解決的，我們目前也在研議當中，相信解決方案應該很快就會出來。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，拜託部長了，希望能儘速。相同的專業問題，不可能也不應該有不同的結果！怎麼會相同的坡度、甚至更小，當初臺中可以，結果斗六不可以？這就會讓人家有不好的聯想。所以這一點我要特別拜託院長、拜託部長，30年的等待，有多少家庭因為交通事故被毀了？有多少地方發展因此而受限，只能無奈限縮？看到其他城市有鐵路高架化，我們非常羨慕，所以在此特別拜託，謝謝院長，謝謝部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：請交通部儘速審議。"],["主席：謝謝張嘉郡委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第31號林楚茵委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","羅美玲","張嘉郡","林楚茵","黃健豪","林岱樺","邱鎮軍","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","廖先翔","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","郭國文","謝龍介","沈伯洋","張智倫","陳雪生"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2025-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00004","1142601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1142601_00004"}}}