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\"處長會給我們的42處不義遺址還有64處潛在不義遺址其實我想要知道就是說未來啦因為我們還是要更積極的去審定嘛因為不義遺址其實就是一直不停的在被破壞所以我們是不是可以有更積極的一個審定要點或是暫行方案這個部分是不是可以來其實我們2026年以前就會把所有潛在不義遺址審定完畢其實我們有在進行\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 371.894, \"end\": 372.094, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 372.094, \"end\": 373.314, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 373.314, \"end\": 373.855, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"遺\"}, {\"word\": \"址\", \"start\": 373.855, \"end\": 374.535, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 374.535, \"end\": 375.555, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"潛\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 375.555, \"end\": 376.095, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 376.095, \"end\": 376.215, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": 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0.837}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 721.577, \"end\": 721.697, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 721.697, \"end\": 721.797, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 721.797, \"end\": 721.897, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 721.897, \"end\": 722.397, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 722.397, \"end\": 722.417, \"score\": 0.844}]}, {\"start\": 722.957, \"end\": 738.464, \"text\": \"其實都還是在限縮一個原本的一些既有的想像那其實在國外我想舉個一個簡單的例子啦就是柏林博物館其實它也是一個紀念猶太人受難的一個過程的一個博物館那它當時其實建了一個兒童場\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 722.957, \"end\": 723.237, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 723.237, \"end\": 723.577, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 723.577, \"end\": 723.757, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 723.757, \"end\": 723.918, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"限\", \"start\": 723.918, \"end\": 724.378, \"score\": 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\"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1006.532, \"end\": 1006.652, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 1006.652, \"end\": 1006.772, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"邀\", \"start\": 1006.772, \"end\": 1006.792, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"請\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:52,606 --> 00:00:54,529\n我們有請院長麻煩再請卓院長備選\n\n2\n00:01:07,299 --> 00:01:30,830\n國民黨昨天開了一個記者會高喊反戒嚴聽起來好像在捍衛民主但問題是當年執行長達38年的戒嚴的政黨就是國民黨而且國民黨為了護航過去壓迫台灣人的歷史不僅在我們的立法院無所不用其極的拖延我們的一些轉型正義的工作模糊轉型正義的定義\n\n3\n00:01:31,670 --> 00:01:47,733\n然後甚至在預算上面大砍了黨產會內政部教育部還有文化部的一些相關預算那我要跟院長說您知道嗎在這個凍結的預算如果7月前無法解凍我們的228國家紀念館就要因為付不出營運費用而休館了\n\n4\n00:01:48,354 --> 00:02:16,923\n所以我今天看到這兩個這個新聞的時候我只有這兩個字荒謬因為今天台灣的民主是有多少的前輩犧牲了生命犧牲了青春才得到的這是不止息的一個抗爭絕對不是國民黨的恩賜可是國民黨為什麼還可以正義凜然的臉不紅氣不喊的喊出來要反戒嚴我覺得有一個非常大的問題就是大多數的民眾對於戒嚴這兩個字其實是非常不清楚的\n\n5\n00:02:17,878 --> 00:02:37,184\n所以就很容易被這樣子操弄所以我想跟院長分享一段東吳大學政治系教授陳俊宏老師在俄巴的共聲音音樂會上面的一個演講這個片段他講的是說從匈牙利和波蘭的例子來看儘管經歷了共產政權的垮台\n\n6\n00:02:38,044 --> 00:02:54,979\n但是公民如果持續保有威權懷舊的政治態度就容易使新興民主體制下的領導人進行民粹動員讓公民接受那些違背民主原則的決定進而破壞法治精神導致民主倒退\n\n7\n00:02:55,720 --> 00:03:12,598\n匈牙利曾經是東歐民主化的成功典範但是如果公民社會對於威權沒有免疫力那民主就可能一步一步的被蠶食這些國家30年的處境跟台灣非常的相似但他們一步一步走回頭路我們台灣真的要從道復策嗎\n\n8\n00:03:13,779 --> 00:03:40,222\n所以在今年1月的時候歐洲理事會去強調歷史教育對培養民主公民意識至關重要因為歷史不是過去而是我們如何面對未來如果我們不讓社會正視過去的不義讓下一代知道威權的可怕那麼民主的危機就會隨時發生所以今天我想要就深化轉型正義才有民主任性這個主題來跟院長做仔細的討論\n\n9\n00:03:42,143 --> 00:03:57,834\n在二月八當天呢中樞儀式的時候呢賴總統其實發表演說指出要請文化部啟動審議程序例如藝光教會等具有轉型正義意義的場所與保存維護讓大家都能夠走進歷史的現場反思思考\n\n10\n00:03:58,655 --> 00:04:12,555\n威權統治對人權自由的破壞進而鬆化台灣的民族我認為這是一個很好的開始但是從促轉會解散到現在已經三年了過去促轉會審定相關博弈遺址的時候是根據審定博弈遺址作業要點\n\n11\n00:04:13,897 --> 00:04:41,473\n解散之後整個工作移轉到文化部但是目前為止文化部並沒有任何的審定要點詢問相關程序都說要等到立法院三讀立法這個不易移植保存條例才能夠進行後續的活化所以我想要請教院長就是說既然總統都已經清楚的講出來要由文化部來啟動一個審議的程序那麼我們相關的時間表是什麼而且如果以藝光教會這個來作為案例我們什麼時候會啟動\n\n12\n00:04:43,194 --> 00:05:11,298\n我們的程序又是什麼首先台灣因為有過去長期的戒嚴這個戒嚴的教訓以及現在世界各國各種民主發展改革的過程才造成今天台灣有這樣一個勇敢面對極權還能夠堅守民主的自我的一個心理上最強大的武器所以我們在這個基礎上我們應該是相信台灣是一個永遠民主自由的地方\n\n13\n00:05:12,078 --> 00:05:35,492\n那天在二二八當天總統所說的他最大的意義是希望台灣永遠永遠不要再發生像二二八這樣的事件所以他把藝光教會把他先把他指定為是具有轉型正義的一個意義的一個場所那未來文化部就會啟動他整個審議的程序那審議的過程請文化部請李部長來做說明\n\n14\n00:05:37,817 --> 00:05:49,731\n跟委員報告有關一貫教會的事情我們其實人權管已經啟動了一個我們就擬定一個未來由民間主動申請的時候我們給他一個\n\n15\n00:05:50,933 --> 00:06:09,113\n不算是不義於此但是是關於轉型正義有意義的場域這樣的名稱作為一個暫時的一個取代另外有關不義於此的條例去年7月18送進立法院審議的過程中我們在等待結果但是目前\n\n16\n00:06:11,894 --> 00:06:36,019\n處長會給我們的42處不義遺址還有64處潛在不義遺址其實我想要知道就是說未來啦因為我們還是要更積極的去審定嘛因為不義遺址其實就是一直不停的在被破壞所以我們是不是可以有更積極的一個審定要點或是暫行方案這個部分是不是可以來其實我們2026年以前就會把所有潛在不義遺址審定完畢其實我們有在進行\n\n17\n00:06:36,889 --> 00:07:05,583\n但是對於現在還有很多還沒有被認定的不義遺址呢我們現在是沒有任何相關的審定要點所以我們是不是可以來擬定呢院長是不是可以責成文化部我們一個月以內來提出一個相關的解決方案可以嗎當天總統所宣示的那就是一個這個階段的起點我們用這個起點從不義遺址或者是具有轉型正義的意義的這個場域我們就開始有一個新的方式跟階段性的作為文化部就會啟動\n\n18\n00:07:06,431 --> 00:07:22,394\n好那我希望可以在一個月內看到一些相關的一個規劃好嗎好謝謝謝謝文化部那接下來就是要來講就是說針對於不義職的保存其實威權象徵的去除也是轉型正義中相當重要的工作\n\n19\n00:07:23,135 --> 00:07:51,137\n最近其實中原大學配合了一個自己主動決議他們要來配合轉型正義來去做修改中正樓的這個大樓的名稱我認為這對轉型正義是一個非常大的一個進展而這件事情智慧可以成功的是我們的政策引導這是我們的政策引導做出來所以我也想要請教因為其實我們現在還是有非常多的路民出轉會的報告其實有提到路民的要更名所以我是否可以請教交通部部長\n\n20\n00:07:54,127 --> 00:07:55,128\n我們可以時間暫停一下嗎時間暫停諮詢請繼續\n\n21\n00:08:04,221 --> 00:08:28,186\n謝謝好就是說我們是不是可以依循我們這個內政部的一些相關的補助方式呢讓地方政府在進行交通建設的時候在落名或是佔名的命名之上也能夠透過加分項目或是增加補助金額引導縣市政府可以像中原大學這樣子自動自發的啟動跟民作業不要像去年桃園市政府當時引發了非常大的爭議就是民眾的投票民意\n\n22\n00:08:28,726 --> 00:08:51,486\n完全背道而馳把捷運站民用了很多用中正命名的這真的是大開轉型正義的倒車不曉得交通部長的想法是什麼好報告委員未來這個部分我們可以納入討論那我回到部裡面再跟部裡面的同仁來討論未來的審核的過程當中把這些也納入對那這個部分的話我們是大概什麼時候可以有一些進一步的了解呢\n\n23\n00:08:52,199 --> 00:09:03,895\n我跟內部先討論,那一個月之內向委員報告好,謝謝部長那再來就是要請國發會主委上臺,謝謝時間暫停,謝謝時間暫停,那文化部長跟交通部長可以請回\n\n24\n00:09:13,706 --> 00:09:33,918\n借這個時間暫停順便宣告一下,我們的硬體建築就是三位所以說所有隔園的備詢不要超過三位一個是硬體建築,硬體設備就是三位另外部長這些畫面我特別也跟院長各部會隔園溝通一下請盡量不要超過三位,畫面也不好看好不好,好請繼續\n\n25\n00:09:37,236 --> 00:09:51,367\n好謝謝那去年總諮詢的時候其實我特別提到就是促轉基金應該開放給民間來直接申請使用那當時也非常感謝就是院長馬上責成了國發會主委來進行相關的研討但是在去年在最近我在追這個檔案局就是我們有\n\n26\n00:09:52,288 --> 00:10:09,568\n更細部的一些計畫的時候呢我發現就是說現在給我的這個方案比較像是說我把大家的相關的各部會的相關計畫彙整成為一個平台讓大家可以知道說我可以從哪邊得到這些相關的補助這比較像一個資訊的彙整平台跟我當時\n\n27\n00:10:10,769 --> 00:10:31,794\n期待的方向不一樣因為我的期待其實是希望可以讓民間團體直接申請我們引進民間的活力來推動各式各樣的轉型計畫我覺得這個也可以讓公司一起協力但是現在比較像是一個會診平台所以我想要請教一下就是說我們\n\n28\n00:10:32,754 --> 00:10:48,315\n有沒有可能再去做一些在這個方向上面更打開一點呢不像只是一個資訊平台還是你們其實是有這個方向在規劃謝謝委員我們今年會規劃一個您所說的就是您提的這個讓民間可以有機會申請的平台\n\n29\n00:10:50,205 --> 00:11:11,744\n事實上我也補充說明一下我們從去年開始就修訂了條例民間就即可申請只是我們的申請是到主要的六個部會然後去個別申請原因是我們不希望資源重複的浪費舉例而言如果是政治受難者家屬的心情貧富\n\n30\n00:11:12,504 --> 00:11:38,075\n可能衛福部已經有案子在走的時候如果民間再申請就會重複所以我們希望他到衛福部來申請那這樣的話衛福部可以統一支援如果已經政府已經在做的那就不一定民間就要不要做再由部會來做所以我們將來這個平台的整合我們還是會整合進來但是會回到由這個六個部會原來我們法定的六個部會來各自審議但我想請教一下就是說那我直接從後面的例子來討論好了抱歉就是說\n\n31\n00:11:39,927 --> 00:12:02,417\n就是說我不太確定如果用這樣子的方式我們的促轉基金的用途會不會非常的重複跟狹隘就是說因為其實我覺得促轉基金的想像可以非常非常的多元以我們現在促轉基金裡面的一些規範來說其實它並沒有非常非常的狹隘可是我們過去的一些補助\n\n32\n00:12:02,957 --> 00:12:18,464\n其實都還是在限縮一個原本的一些既有的想像那其實在國外我想舉個一個簡單的例子啦就是柏林博物館其實它也是一個紀念猶太人受難的一個過程的一個博物館那它當時其實建了一個兒童場\n\n33\n00:12:19,484 --> 00:12:43,076\n那這個兒童長館他是找兒童們一起來做一個審議會然後一起來討論這個遊戲場要變成什麼樣子然後希望通過這個過程來培立兒童可以參與公共事務來培立這個民主討論的一個機制那這樣子的事情其實在沖繩在美國都有類似的案例那我認為這個其實就是公司協力一個最好的方式所以我想要了解就是說\n\n34\n00:12:44,196 --> 00:12:58,383\n我們如果促轉基金要做到像這樣子的一個東西的話如果有人來提出這樣子的創意那他到底要到哪一個部會去做申請呢在既有的六個部會嗎還是他可以有一個更開放的平台或組織可以來協助他申請\n\n35\n00:12:59,065 --> 00:13:28,149\n是的非常謝謝委員您的提議非常好可以幫助我們做得更好那我們其實有內部做個討論做過這個討論我們希望是說如果是單一部會的話我們就到部會去申請但是跨部會的我們有些做法可能會跨了兩個部會或三個部會的我們希望是這個平台透過這個平台進到國發會來做統合所以國發會會是由檔案局還是檔案局嗎對檔案局他就會進行這個跨部會的協商\n\n36\n00:13:29,009 --> 00:13:49,017\n這個部分我也想請教一下,如果還是回到檔案局的部分,我有一個問題想要跟主委再做一些討論,就是說以政治檔案的研究,檔管局絕對是它的專業,但是要去評估這麼多開放性的一些想像的時候,檔管局的專業上面是否足夠呢?\n\n37\n00:13:50,894 --> 00:13:59,929\n其實這是一個很專業的問題所以我們是有一個促轉委員會會由這個委員會來評估協助評估不是我們來評估我們請了很多專家學者\n\n38\n00:14:00,785 --> 00:14:25,357\n所以會有另外到時候促轉經濟之後會有促轉委員會來評估那黨管局只是來協助執行是嗎其實各部會的資料也會送到這裡來做統籌的評估那我們請專家來做評估好因為我時間有限那我想我們這一個平台的細節我們就之後來持續跟國發會這邊來研究跟討論謝謝謝謝委員謝謝最後想要請教院長有關於中正紀念堂的問題\n\n39\n00:14:28,632 --> 00:14:49,420\n就是在2023年行政院推動了轉型正義業務中長程規劃計監測指標建立方案在去年的時候我們就應該要完成相關的修法法制作業但目前還是沒有完成那我在去年的11月促轉匯報上面的策進方案又再度看到了說要去做一個相關法制的修正\n\n40\n00:14:50,840 --> 00:15:18,818\n那我想我們其實過去對中正紀念堂其實已經開過了非常多次的會包含在促轉期間促轉會期間就開了六個方案在鄭麗君副院長在文化部的期間其實也召開了十二場民間的論壇我想其實我們已經開了很多的會應該是時候來做一個決定了那我不曉得說中正紀念堂的轉型其實應該是一個非常非常重要的事情那我其實有看到中正紀念堂轉型小組的呂健興委員\n\n41\n00:15:19,258 --> 00:15:43,867\n表示其實行政院曾經有意把中正紀念堂轉到人權館那我想要請教說對於這樣子的一個想法簡單請院長簡單回覆一下您的看法是什麼是的我們在會議當中是想說這個中正紀念堂如果讓它有新的民主人權的意義那麼它的未來的發展就不會是過去大家對威權的記憶就像\n\n42\n00:15:44,858 --> 00:16:01,319\n我小時候看總統府它就是威權可是我現在看總統府它就是民主的象徵因為我們用人民的力量改變了它的結構改變了它的背景也改變了它存在的意義如果我們同樣的力量用更多的人權文化民主\n\n43\n00:16:01,980 --> 00:16:28,237\n甚至轉型正義的意義也在裡面讓大家認為應該是對威權的記憶的這些建築物轉化成這個功能的話那又是給我們跟給我們的下一代新的一個精神上的期望我想抱歉喔就是說院長就是說中間紀念堂的轉型是一個非常非常重要的工作我想我們還是必須直面歷史過去中間紀念堂裡面的這一位我們大家現在住在裡面的這一位\n\n44\n00:16:29,658 --> 00:16:46,792\n蔣介石先生對台灣的一些傷害我想這是一件非常困難的工作但是我們也必須堅持啦因為還是回到我剛剛講的那一句話只有深化轉型正義直面歷史才能夠打造社會民主社會的韌性那這次這個邀請\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n52606\t54529\t我們有請院長麻煩再請卓院長備選\n67299\t90830\t國民黨昨天開了一個記者會高喊反戒嚴聽起來好像在捍衛民主但問題是當年執行長達38年的戒嚴的政黨就是國民黨而且國民黨為了護航過去壓迫台灣人的歷史不僅在我們的立法院無所不用其極的拖延我們的一些轉型正義的工作模糊轉型正義的定義\n91670\t107733\t然後甚至在預算上面大砍了黨產會內政部教育部還有文化部的一些相關預算那我要跟院長說您知道嗎在這個凍結的預算如果7月前無法解凍我們的228國家紀念館就要因為付不出營運費用而休館了\n108354\t136923\t所以我今天看到這兩個這個新聞的時候我只有這兩個字荒謬因為今天台灣的民主是有多少的前輩犧牲了生命犧牲了青春才得到的這是不止息的一個抗爭絕對不是國民黨的恩賜可是國民黨為什麼還可以正義凜然的臉不紅氣不喊的喊出來要反戒嚴我覺得有一個非常大的問題就是大多數的民眾對於戒嚴這兩個字其實是非常不清楚的\n137878\t157184\t所以就很容易被這樣子操弄所以我想跟院長分享一段東吳大學政治系教授陳俊宏老師在俄巴的共聲音音樂會上面的一個演講這個片段他講的是說從匈牙利和波蘭的例子來看儘管經歷了共產政權的垮台\n158044\t174979\t但是公民如果持續保有威權懷舊的政治態度就容易使新興民主體制下的領導人進行民粹動員讓公民接受那些違背民主原則的決定進而破壞法治精神導致民主倒退\n175720\t192598\t匈牙利曾經是東歐民主化的成功典範但是如果公民社會對於威權沒有免疫力那民主就可能一步一步的被蠶食這些國家30年的處境跟台灣非常的相似但他們一步一步走回頭路我們台灣真的要從道復策嗎\n193779\t220222\t所以在今年1月的時候歐洲理事會去強調歷史教育對培養民主公民意識至關重要因為歷史不是過去而是我們如何面對未來如果我們不讓社會正視過去的不義讓下一代知道威權的可怕那麼民主的危機就會隨時發生所以今天我想要就深化轉型正義才有民主任性這個主題來跟院長做仔細的討論\n222143\t237834\t在二月八當天呢中樞儀式的時候呢賴總統其實發表演說指出要請文化部啟動審議程序例如藝光教會等具有轉型正義意義的場所與保存維護讓大家都能夠走進歷史的現場反思思考\n238655\t252555\t威權統治對人權自由的破壞進而鬆化台灣的民族我認為這是一個很好的開始但是從促轉會解散到現在已經三年了過去促轉會審定相關博弈遺址的時候是根據審定博弈遺址作業要點\n253897\t281473\t解散之後整個工作移轉到文化部但是目前為止文化部並沒有任何的審定要點詢問相關程序都說要等到立法院三讀立法這個不易移植保存條例才能夠進行後續的活化所以我想要請教院長就是說既然總統都已經清楚的講出來要由文化部來啟動一個審議的程序那麼我們相關的時間表是什麼而且如果以藝光教會這個來作為案例我們什麼時候會啟動\n283194\t311298\t我們的程序又是什麼首先台灣因為有過去長期的戒嚴這個戒嚴的教訓以及現在世界各國各種民主發展改革的過程才造成今天台灣有這樣一個勇敢面對極權還能夠堅守民主的自我的一個心理上最強大的武器所以我們在這個基礎上我們應該是相信台灣是一個永遠民主自由的地方\n312078\t335492\t那天在二二八當天總統所說的他最大的意義是希望台灣永遠永遠不要再發生像二二八這樣的事件所以他把藝光教會把他先把他指定為是具有轉型正義的一個意義的一個場所那未來文化部就會啟動他整個審議的程序那審議的過程請文化部請李部長來做說明\n337817\t349731\t跟委員報告有關一貫教會的事情我們其實人權管已經啟動了一個我們就擬定一個未來由民間主動申請的時候我們給他一個\n350933\t369113\t不算是不義於此但是是關於轉型正義有意義的場域這樣的名稱作為一個暫時的一個取代另外有關不義於此的條例去年7月18送進立法院審議的過程中我們在等待結果但是目前\n371894\t396019\t處長會給我們的42處不義遺址還有64處潛在不義遺址其實我想要知道就是說未來啦因為我們還是要更積極的去審定嘛因為不義遺址其實就是一直不停的在被破壞所以我們是不是可以有更積極的一個審定要點或是暫行方案這個部分是不是可以來其實我們2026年以前就會把所有潛在不義遺址審定完畢其實我們有在進行\n396889\t425583\t但是對於現在還有很多還沒有被認定的不義遺址呢我們現在是沒有任何相關的審定要點所以我們是不是可以來擬定呢院長是不是可以責成文化部我們一個月以內來提出一個相關的解決方案可以嗎當天總統所宣示的那就是一個這個階段的起點我們用這個起點從不義遺址或者是具有轉型正義的意義的這個場域我們就開始有一個新的方式跟階段性的作為文化部就會啟動\n426431\t442394\t好 那我希望可以在一個月內看到一些相關的一個規劃好嗎好 謝謝 謝謝文化部那接下來就是要來講就是說針對於不義職的保存其實威權象徵的去除也是轉型正義中相當重要的工作\n443135\t471137\t最近其實中原大學配合了一個自己主動決議他們要來配合轉型正義來去做修改中正樓的這個大樓的名稱我認為這對轉型正義是一個非常大的一個進展而這件事情智慧可以成功的是我們的政策引導這是我們的政策引導做出來所以我也想要請教因為其實我們現在還是有非常多的路民出轉會的報告其實有提到路民的要更名所以我是否可以請教交通部部長\n474127\t475128\t我們可以時間暫停一下嗎時間暫停諮詢請繼續\n484221\t508186\t謝謝好就是說我們是不是可以依循我們這個內政部的一些相關的補助方式呢讓地方政府在進行交通建設的時候在落名或是佔名的命名之上也能夠透過加分項目或是增加補助金額引導縣市政府可以像中原大學這樣子自動自發的啟動跟民作業不要像去年桃園市政府當時引發了非常大的爭議就是民眾的投票民意\n508726\t531486\t完全背道而馳把捷運站民用了很多用中正命名的這真的是大開轉型正義的倒車不曉得交通部長的想法是什麼好 報告委員未來這個部分我們可以納入討論那我回到部裡面再跟部裡面的同仁來討論未來的審核的過程當中把這些也納入對 那這個部分的話我們是大概什麼時候可以有一些進一步的了解呢\n532199\t543895\t我跟內部先討論,那一個月之內向委員報告好,謝謝部長那再來就是要請國發會主委上臺,謝謝時間暫停,謝謝時間暫停,那文化部長跟交通部長可以請回\n553706\t573918\t借這個時間暫停順便宣告一下,我們的硬體建築就是三位所以說所有隔園的備詢不要超過三位一個是硬體建築,硬體設備就是三位另外部長這些畫面我特別也跟院長各部會隔園溝通一下請盡量不要超過三位,畫面也不好看好不好,好請繼續\n577236\t591367\t好謝謝那去年總諮詢的時候其實我特別提到就是促轉基金應該開放給民間來直接申請使用那當時也非常感謝就是院長馬上責成了國發會主委來進行相關的研討但是在去年在最近我在追這個檔案局就是我們有\n592288\t609568\t更細部的一些計畫的時候呢我發現就是說現在給我的這個方案比較像是說我把大家的相關的各部會的相關計畫彙整成為一個平台讓大家可以知道說我可以從哪邊得到這些相關的補助這比較像一個資訊的彙整平台跟我當時\n610769\t631794\t期待的方向不一樣因為我的期待其實是希望可以讓民間團體直接申請我們引進民間的活力來推動各式各樣的轉型計畫我覺得這個也可以讓公司一起協力但是現在比較像是一個會診平台所以我想要請教一下就是說我們\n632754\t648315\t有沒有可能再去做一些在這個方向上面更打開一點呢不像只是一個資訊平台還是你們其實是有這個方向在規劃謝謝委員我們今年會規劃一個您所說的就是您提的這個讓民間可以有機會申請的平台\n650205\t671744\t事實上我也補充說明一下我們從去年開始就修訂了條例民間就即可申請只是我們的申請是到主要的六個部會然後去個別申請原因是我們不希望資源重複的浪費舉例而言如果是政治受難者家屬的心情貧富\n672504\t698075\t可能衛福部已經有案子在走的時候如果民間再申請就會重複所以我們希望他到衛福部來申請那這樣的話衛福部可以統一支援如果已經政府已經在做的那就不一定民間就要不要做再由部會來做所以我們將來這個平台的整合我們還是會整合進來但是會回到由這個六個部會原來我們法定的六個部會來各自審議但我想請教一下就是說那我直接從後面的例子來討論好了抱歉就是說\n699927\t722417\t就是說我不太確定如果用這樣子的方式我們的促轉基金的用途會不會非常的重複跟狹隘就是說因為其實我覺得促轉基金的想像可以非常非常的多元以我們現在促轉基金裡面的一些規範來說其實它並沒有非常非常的狹隘可是我們過去的一些補助\n722957\t738464\t其實都還是在限縮一個原本的一些既有的想像那其實在國外我想舉個一個簡單的例子啦就是柏林博物館其實它也是一個紀念猶太人受難的一個過程的一個博物館那它當時其實建了一個兒童場\n739484\t763076\t那這個兒童長館他是找兒童們一起來做一個審議會然後一起來討論這個遊戲場要變成什麼樣子然後希望通過這個過程來培立兒童可以參與公共事務來培立這個民主討論的一個機制那這樣子的事情其實在沖繩在美國都有類似的案例那我認為這個其實就是公司協力一個最好的方式所以我想要了解就是說\n764196\t778383\t我們如果促轉基金要做到像這樣子的一個東西的話如果有人來提出這樣子的創意那他到底要到哪一個部會去做申請呢在既有的六個部會嗎還是他可以有一個更開放的平台或組織可以來協助他申請\n779065\t808149\t是的 非常謝謝委員您的提議非常好可以幫助我們做得更好那我們其實有內部做個討論做過這個討論我們希望是說如果是單一部會的話我們就到部會去申請但是跨部會的我們有些做法可能會跨了兩個部會或三個部會的我們希望是這個平台透過這個平台進到國發會來做統合所以國發會會是由檔案局還是檔案局嗎對 檔案局他就會進行這個跨部會的協商\n809009\t829017\t這個部分我也想請教一下,如果還是回到檔案局的部分,我有一個問題想要跟主委再做一些討論,就是說以政治檔案的研究,檔管局絕對是它的專業,但是要去評估這麼多開放性的一些想像的時候,檔管局的專業上面是否足夠呢?\n830894\t839929\t其實這是一個很專業的問題所以我們是有一個促轉委員會會由這個委員會來評估協助評估不是我們來評估我們請了很多專家學者\n840785\t865357\t所以會有另外到時候促轉經濟之後會有促轉委員會來評估那黨管局只是來協助執行是嗎其實各部會的資料也會送到這裡來做統籌的評估那我們請專家來做評估好因為我時間有限那我想我們這一個平台的細節我們就之後來持續跟國發會這邊來研究跟討論謝謝謝謝委員謝謝最後想要請教院長有關於中正紀念堂的問題\n868632\t889420\t就是在2023年行政院推動了轉型正義業務中長程規劃計監測指標建立方案在去年的時候我們就應該要完成相關的修法法制作業但目前還是沒有完成那我在去年的11月促轉匯報上面的策進方案又再度看到了說要去做一個相關法制的修正\n890840\t918818\t那我想我們其實過去對中正紀念堂其實已經開過了非常多次的會包含在促轉期間促轉會期間就開了六個方案在鄭麗君副院長在文化部的期間其實也召開了十二場民間的論壇我想其實我們已經開了很多的會應該是時候來做一個決定了那我不曉得說中正紀念堂的轉型其實應該是一個非常非常重要的事情那我其實有看到中正紀念堂轉型小組的呂健興委員\n919258\t943867\t表示其實行政院曾經有意把中正紀念堂轉到人權館那我想要請教說對於這樣子的一個想法簡單請院長簡單回覆一下您的看法是什麼是的 我們在會議當中是想說這個中正紀念堂如果讓它有新的民主人權的意義那麼它的未來的發展就不會是過去大家對威權的記憶就像\n944858\t961319\t我小時候看總統府它就是威權可是我現在看總統府它就是民主的象徵因為我們用人民的力量改變了它的結構改變了它的背景也改變了它存在的意義如果我們同樣的力量用更多的人權文化民主\n961980\t988237\t甚至轉型正義的意義也在裡面讓大家認為應該是對威權的記憶的這些建築物轉化成這個功能的話那又是給我們跟給我們的下一代新的一個精神上的期望我想 抱歉喔就是說 院長就是說中間紀念堂的轉型是一個非常非常重要的工作我想我們還是必須直面歷史過去中間紀念堂裡面的這一位我們大家現在住在裡面的這一位\n989658\t1006792\t蔣介石先生對台灣的一些傷害我想這是一件非常困難的工作但是我們也必須堅持啦因為還是回到我剛剛講的那一句話只有深化轉型正義直面歷史才能夠打造社會民主社會的韌性那這次這個邀請\n","txt":"我們有請院長麻煩再請卓院長備選\n國民黨昨天開了一個記者會高喊反戒嚴聽起來好像在捍衛民主但問題是當年執行長達38年的戒嚴的政黨就是國民黨而且國民黨為了護航過去壓迫台灣人的歷史不僅在我們的立法院無所不用其極的拖延我們的一些轉型正義的工作模糊轉型正義的定義\n然後甚至在預算上面大砍了黨產會內政部教育部還有文化部的一些相關預算那我要跟院長說您知道嗎在這個凍結的預算如果7月前無法解凍我們的228國家紀念館就要因為付不出營運費用而休館了\n所以我今天看到這兩個這個新聞的時候我只有這兩個字荒謬因為今天台灣的民主是有多少的前輩犧牲了生命犧牲了青春才得到的這是不止息的一個抗爭絕對不是國民黨的恩賜可是國民黨為什麼還可以正義凜然的臉不紅氣不喊的喊出來要反戒嚴我覺得有一個非常大的問題就是大多數的民眾對於戒嚴這兩個字其實是非常不清楚的\n所以就很容易被這樣子操弄所以我想跟院長分享一段東吳大學政治系教授陳俊宏老師在俄巴的共聲音音樂會上面的一個演講這個片段他講的是說從匈牙利和波蘭的例子來看儘管經歷了共產政權的垮台\n但是公民如果持續保有威權懷舊的政治態度就容易使新興民主體制下的領導人進行民粹動員讓公民接受那些違背民主原則的決定進而破壞法治精神導致民主倒退\n匈牙利曾經是東歐民主化的成功典範但是如果公民社會對於威權沒有免疫力那民主就可能一步一步的被蠶食這些國家30年的處境跟台灣非常的相似但他們一步一步走回頭路我們台灣真的要從道復策嗎\n所以在今年1月的時候歐洲理事會去強調歷史教育對培養民主公民意識至關重要因為歷史不是過去而是我們如何面對未來如果我們不讓社會正視過去的不義讓下一代知道威權的可怕那麼民主的危機就會隨時發生所以今天我想要就深化轉型正義才有民主任性這個主題來跟院長做仔細的討論\n在二月八當天呢中樞儀式的時候呢賴總統其實發表演說指出要請文化部啟動審議程序例如藝光教會等具有轉型正義意義的場所與保存維護讓大家都能夠走進歷史的現場反思思考\n威權統治對人權自由的破壞進而鬆化台灣的民族我認為這是一個很好的開始但是從促轉會解散到現在已經三年了過去促轉會審定相關博弈遺址的時候是根據審定博弈遺址作業要點\n解散之後整個工作移轉到文化部但是目前為止文化部並沒有任何的審定要點詢問相關程序都說要等到立法院三讀立法這個不易移植保存條例才能夠進行後續的活化所以我想要請教院長就是說既然總統都已經清楚的講出來要由文化部來啟動一個審議的程序那麼我們相關的時間表是什麼而且如果以藝光教會這個來作為案例我們什麼時候會啟動\n我們的程序又是什麼首先台灣因為有過去長期的戒嚴這個戒嚴的教訓以及現在世界各國各種民主發展改革的過程才造成今天台灣有這樣一個勇敢面對極權還能夠堅守民主的自我的一個心理上最強大的武器所以我們在這個基礎上我們應該是相信台灣是一個永遠民主自由的地方\n那天在二二八當天總統所說的他最大的意義是希望台灣永遠永遠不要再發生像二二八這樣的事件所以他把藝光教會把他先把他指定為是具有轉型正義的一個意義的一個場所那未來文化部就會啟動他整個審議的程序那審議的過程請文化部請李部長來做說明\n跟委員報告有關一貫教會的事情我們其實人權管已經啟動了一個我們就擬定一個未來由民間主動申請的時候我們給他一個\n不算是不義於此但是是關於轉型正義有意義的場域這樣的名稱作為一個暫時的一個取代另外有關不義於此的條例去年7月18送進立法院審議的過程中我們在等待結果但是目前\n處長會給我們的42處不義遺址還有64處潛在不義遺址其實我想要知道就是說未來啦因為我們還是要更積極的去審定嘛因為不義遺址其實就是一直不停的在被破壞所以我們是不是可以有更積極的一個審定要點或是暫行方案這個部分是不是可以來其實我們2026年以前就會把所有潛在不義遺址審定完畢其實我們有在進行\n但是對於現在還有很多還沒有被認定的不義遺址呢我們現在是沒有任何相關的審定要點所以我們是不是可以來擬定呢院長是不是可以責成文化部我們一個月以內來提出一個相關的解決方案可以嗎當天總統所宣示的那就是一個這個階段的起點我們用這個起點從不義遺址或者是具有轉型正義的意義的這個場域我們就開始有一個新的方式跟階段性的作為文化部就會啟動\n好 那我希望可以在一個月內看到一些相關的一個規劃好嗎好 謝謝 謝謝文化部那接下來就是要來講就是說針對於不義職的保存其實威權象徵的去除也是轉型正義中相當重要的工作\n最近其實中原大學配合了一個自己主動決議他們要來配合轉型正義來去做修改中正樓的這個大樓的名稱我認為這對轉型正義是一個非常大的一個進展而這件事情智慧可以成功的是我們的政策引導這是我們的政策引導做出來所以我也想要請教因為其實我們現在還是有非常多的路民出轉會的報告其實有提到路民的要更名所以我是否可以請教交通部部長\n我們可以時間暫停一下嗎時間暫停諮詢請繼續\n謝謝好就是說我們是不是可以依循我們這個內政部的一些相關的補助方式呢讓地方政府在進行交通建設的時候在落名或是佔名的命名之上也能夠透過加分項目或是增加補助金額引導縣市政府可以像中原大學這樣子自動自發的啟動跟民作業不要像去年桃園市政府當時引發了非常大的爭議就是民眾的投票民意\n完全背道而馳把捷運站民用了很多用中正命名的這真的是大開轉型正義的倒車不曉得交通部長的想法是什麼好 報告委員未來這個部分我們可以納入討論那我回到部裡面再跟部裡面的同仁來討論未來的審核的過程當中把這些也納入對 那這個部分的話我們是大概什麼時候可以有一些進一步的了解呢\n我跟內部先討論,那一個月之內向委員報告好,謝謝部長那再來就是要請國發會主委上臺,謝謝時間暫停,謝謝時間暫停,那文化部長跟交通部長可以請回\n借這個時間暫停順便宣告一下,我們的硬體建築就是三位所以說所有隔園的備詢不要超過三位一個是硬體建築,硬體設備就是三位另外部長這些畫面我特別也跟院長各部會隔園溝通一下請盡量不要超過三位,畫面也不好看好不好,好請繼續\n好謝謝那去年總諮詢的時候其實我特別提到就是促轉基金應該開放給民間來直接申請使用那當時也非常感謝就是院長馬上責成了國發會主委來進行相關的研討但是在去年在最近我在追這個檔案局就是我們有\n更細部的一些計畫的時候呢我發現就是說現在給我的這個方案比較像是說我把大家的相關的各部會的相關計畫彙整成為一個平台讓大家可以知道說我可以從哪邊得到這些相關的補助這比較像一個資訊的彙整平台跟我當時\n期待的方向不一樣因為我的期待其實是希望可以讓民間團體直接申請我們引進民間的活力來推動各式各樣的轉型計畫我覺得這個也可以讓公司一起協力但是現在比較像是一個會診平台所以我想要請教一下就是說我們\n有沒有可能再去做一些在這個方向上面更打開一點呢不像只是一個資訊平台還是你們其實是有這個方向在規劃謝謝委員我們今年會規劃一個您所說的就是您提的這個讓民間可以有機會申請的平台\n事實上我也補充說明一下我們從去年開始就修訂了條例民間就即可申請只是我們的申請是到主要的六個部會然後去個別申請原因是我們不希望資源重複的浪費舉例而言如果是政治受難者家屬的心情貧富\n可能衛福部已經有案子在走的時候如果民間再申請就會重複所以我們希望他到衛福部來申請那這樣的話衛福部可以統一支援如果已經政府已經在做的那就不一定民間就要不要做再由部會來做所以我們將來這個平台的整合我們還是會整合進來但是會回到由這個六個部會原來我們法定的六個部會來各自審議但我想請教一下就是說那我直接從後面的例子來討論好了抱歉就是說\n就是說我不太確定如果用這樣子的方式我們的促轉基金的用途會不會非常的重複跟狹隘就是說因為其實我覺得促轉基金的想像可以非常非常的多元以我們現在促轉基金裡面的一些規範來說其實它並沒有非常非常的狹隘可是我們過去的一些補助\n其實都還是在限縮一個原本的一些既有的想像那其實在國外我想舉個一個簡單的例子啦就是柏林博物館其實它也是一個紀念猶太人受難的一個過程的一個博物館那它當時其實建了一個兒童場\n那這個兒童長館他是找兒童們一起來做一個審議會然後一起來討論這個遊戲場要變成什麼樣子然後希望通過這個過程來培立兒童可以參與公共事務來培立這個民主討論的一個機制那這樣子的事情其實在沖繩在美國都有類似的案例那我認為這個其實就是公司協力一個最好的方式所以我想要了解就是說\n我們如果促轉基金要做到像這樣子的一個東西的話如果有人來提出這樣子的創意那他到底要到哪一個部會去做申請呢在既有的六個部會嗎還是他可以有一個更開放的平台或組織可以來協助他申請\n是的 非常謝謝委員您的提議非常好可以幫助我們做得更好那我們其實有內部做個討論做過這個討論我們希望是說如果是單一部會的話我們就到部會去申請但是跨部會的我們有些做法可能會跨了兩個部會或三個部會的我們希望是這個平台透過這個平台進到國發會來做統合所以國發會會是由檔案局還是檔案局嗎對 檔案局他就會進行這個跨部會的協商\n這個部分我也想請教一下,如果還是回到檔案局的部分,我有一個問題想要跟主委再做一些討論,就是說以政治檔案的研究,檔管局絕對是它的專業,但是要去評估這麼多開放性的一些想像的時候,檔管局的專業上面是否足夠呢?\n其實這是一個很專業的問題所以我們是有一個促轉委員會會由這個委員會來評估協助評估不是我們來評估我們請了很多專家學者\n所以會有另外到時候促轉經濟之後會有促轉委員會來評估那黨管局只是來協助執行是嗎其實各部會的資料也會送到這裡來做統籌的評估那我們請專家來做評估好因為我時間有限那我想我們這一個平台的細節我們就之後來持續跟國發會這邊來研究跟討論謝謝謝謝委員謝謝最後想要請教院長有關於中正紀念堂的問題\n就是在2023年行政院推動了轉型正義業務中長程規劃計監測指標建立方案在去年的時候我們就應該要完成相關的修法法制作業但目前還是沒有完成那我在去年的11月促轉匯報上面的策進方案又再度看到了說要去做一個相關法制的修正\n那我想我們其實過去對中正紀念堂其實已經開過了非常多次的會包含在促轉期間促轉會期間就開了六個方案在鄭麗君副院長在文化部的期間其實也召開了十二場民間的論壇我想其實我們已經開了很多的會應該是時候來做一個決定了那我不曉得說中正紀念堂的轉型其實應該是一個非常非常重要的事情那我其實有看到中正紀念堂轉型小組的呂健興委員\n表示其實行政院曾經有意把中正紀念堂轉到人權館那我想要請教說對於這樣子的一個想法簡單請院長簡單回覆一下您的看法是什麼是的 我們在會議當中是想說這個中正紀念堂如果讓它有新的民主人權的意義那麼它的未來的發展就不會是過去大家對威權的記憶就像\n我小時候看總統府它就是威權可是我現在看總統府它就是民主的象徵因為我們用人民的力量改變了它的結構改變了它的背景也改變了它存在的意義如果我們同樣的力量用更多的人權文化民主\n甚至轉型正義的意義也在裡面讓大家認為應該是對威權的記憶的這些建築物轉化成這個功能的話那又是給我們跟給我們的下一代新的一個精神上的期望我想 抱歉喔就是說 院長就是說中間紀念堂的轉型是一個非常非常重要的工作我想我們還是必須直面歷史過去中間紀念堂裡面的這一位我們大家現在住在裡面的這一位\n蔣介石先生對台灣的一些傷害我想這是一件非常困難的工作但是我們也必須堅持啦因為還是回到我剛剛講的那一句話只有深化轉型正義直面歷史才能夠打造社會民主社會的韌性那這次這個邀請\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:52.606 --> 00:54.529\n我們有請院長麻煩再請卓院長備選\n\n01:07.299 --> 01:30.830\n國民黨昨天開了一個記者會高喊反戒嚴聽起來好像在捍衛民主但問題是當年執行長達38年的戒嚴的政黨就是國民黨而且國民黨為了護航過去壓迫台灣人的歷史不僅在我們的立法院無所不用其極的拖延我們的一些轉型正義的工作模糊轉型正義的定義\n\n01:31.670 --> 01:47.733\n然後甚至在預算上面大砍了黨產會內政部教育部還有文化部的一些相關預算那我要跟院長說您知道嗎在這個凍結的預算如果7月前無法解凍我們的228國家紀念館就要因為付不出營運費用而休館了\n\n01:48.354 --> 02:16.923\n所以我今天看到這兩個這個新聞的時候我只有這兩個字荒謬因為今天台灣的民主是有多少的前輩犧牲了生命犧牲了青春才得到的這是不止息的一個抗爭絕對不是國民黨的恩賜可是國民黨為什麼還可以正義凜然的臉不紅氣不喊的喊出來要反戒嚴我覺得有一個非常大的問題就是大多數的民眾對於戒嚴這兩個字其實是非常不清楚的\n\n02:17.878 --> 02:37.184\n所以就很容易被這樣子操弄所以我想跟院長分享一段東吳大學政治系教授陳俊宏老師在俄巴的共聲音音樂會上面的一個演講這個片段他講的是說從匈牙利和波蘭的例子來看儘管經歷了共產政權的垮台\n\n02:38.044 --> 02:54.979\n但是公民如果持續保有威權懷舊的政治態度就容易使新興民主體制下的領導人進行民粹動員讓公民接受那些違背民主原則的決定進而破壞法治精神導致民主倒退\n\n02:55.720 --> 03:12.598\n匈牙利曾經是東歐民主化的成功典範但是如果公民社會對於威權沒有免疫力那民主就可能一步一步的被蠶食這些國家30年的處境跟台灣非常的相似但他們一步一步走回頭路我們台灣真的要從道復策嗎\n\n03:13.779 --> 03:40.222\n所以在今年1月的時候歐洲理事會去強調歷史教育對培養民主公民意識至關重要因為歷史不是過去而是我們如何面對未來如果我們不讓社會正視過去的不義讓下一代知道威權的可怕那麼民主的危機就會隨時發生所以今天我想要就深化轉型正義才有民主任性這個主題來跟院長做仔細的討論\n\n03:42.143 --> 03:57.834\n在二月八當天呢中樞儀式的時候呢賴總統其實發表演說指出要請文化部啟動審議程序例如藝光教會等具有轉型正義意義的場所與保存維護讓大家都能夠走進歷史的現場反思思考\n\n03:58.655 --> 04:12.555\n威權統治對人權自由的破壞進而鬆化台灣的民族我認為這是一個很好的開始但是從促轉會解散到現在已經三年了過去促轉會審定相關博弈遺址的時候是根據審定博弈遺址作業要點\n\n04:13.897 --> 04:41.473\n解散之後整個工作移轉到文化部但是目前為止文化部並沒有任何的審定要點詢問相關程序都說要等到立法院三讀立法這個不易移植保存條例才能夠進行後續的活化所以我想要請教院長就是說既然總統都已經清楚的講出來要由文化部來啟動一個審議的程序那麼我們相關的時間表是什麼而且如果以藝光教會這個來作為案例我們什麼時候會啟動\n\n04:43.194 --> 05:11.298\n我們的程序又是什麼首先台灣因為有過去長期的戒嚴這個戒嚴的教訓以及現在世界各國各種民主發展改革的過程才造成今天台灣有這樣一個勇敢面對極權還能夠堅守民主的自我的一個心理上最強大的武器所以我們在這個基礎上我們應該是相信台灣是一個永遠民主自由的地方\n\n05:12.078 --> 05:35.492\n那天在二二八當天總統所說的他最大的意義是希望台灣永遠永遠不要再發生像二二八這樣的事件所以他把藝光教會把他先把他指定為是具有轉型正義的一個意義的一個場所那未來文化部就會啟動他整個審議的程序那審議的過程請文化部請李部長來做說明\n\n05:37.817 --> 05:49.731\n跟委員報告有關一貫教會的事情我們其實人權管已經啟動了一個我們就擬定一個未來由民間主動申請的時候我們給他一個\n\n05:50.933 --> 06:09.113\n不算是不義於此但是是關於轉型正義有意義的場域這樣的名稱作為一個暫時的一個取代另外有關不義於此的條例去年7月18送進立法院審議的過程中我們在等待結果但是目前\n\n06:11.894 --> 06:36.019\n處長會給我們的42處不義遺址還有64處潛在不義遺址其實我想要知道就是說未來啦因為我們還是要更積極的去審定嘛因為不義遺址其實就是一直不停的在被破壞所以我們是不是可以有更積極的一個審定要點或是暫行方案這個部分是不是可以來其實我們2026年以前就會把所有潛在不義遺址審定完畢其實我們有在進行\n\n06:36.889 --> 07:05.583\n但是對於現在還有很多還沒有被認定的不義遺址呢我們現在是沒有任何相關的審定要點所以我們是不是可以來擬定呢院長是不是可以責成文化部我們一個月以內來提出一個相關的解決方案可以嗎當天總統所宣示的那就是一個這個階段的起點我們用這個起點從不義遺址或者是具有轉型正義的意義的這個場域我們就開始有一個新的方式跟階段性的作為文化部就會啟動\n\n07:06.431 --> 07:22.394\n好那我希望可以在一個月內看到一些相關的一個規劃好嗎好謝謝謝謝文化部那接下來就是要來講就是說針對於不義職的保存其實威權象徵的去除也是轉型正義中相當重要的工作\n\n07:23.135 --> 07:51.137\n最近其實中原大學配合了一個自己主動決議他們要來配合轉型正義來去做修改中正樓的這個大樓的名稱我認為這對轉型正義是一個非常大的一個進展而這件事情智慧可以成功的是我們的政策引導這是我們的政策引導做出來所以我也想要請教因為其實我們現在還是有非常多的路民出轉會的報告其實有提到路民的要更名所以我是否可以請教交通部部長\n\n07:54.127 --> 07:55.128\n我們可以時間暫停一下嗎時間暫停諮詢請繼續\n\n08:04.221 --> 08:28.186\n謝謝好就是說我們是不是可以依循我們這個內政部的一些相關的補助方式呢讓地方政府在進行交通建設的時候在落名或是佔名的命名之上也能夠透過加分項目或是增加補助金額引導縣市政府可以像中原大學這樣子自動自發的啟動跟民作業不要像去年桃園市政府當時引發了非常大的爭議就是民眾的投票民意\n\n08:28.726 --> 08:51.486\n完全背道而馳把捷運站民用了很多用中正命名的這真的是大開轉型正義的倒車不曉得交通部長的想法是什麼好報告委員未來這個部分我們可以納入討論那我回到部裡面再跟部裡面的同仁來討論未來的審核的過程當中把這些也納入對那這個部分的話我們是大概什麼時候可以有一些進一步的了解呢\n\n08:52.199 --> 09:03.895\n我跟內部先討論,那一個月之內向委員報告好,謝謝部長那再來就是要請國發會主委上臺,謝謝時間暫停,謝謝時間暫停,那文化部長跟交通部長可以請回\n\n09:13.706 --> 09:33.918\n借這個時間暫停順便宣告一下,我們的硬體建築就是三位所以說所有隔園的備詢不要超過三位一個是硬體建築,硬體設備就是三位另外部長這些畫面我特別也跟院長各部會隔園溝通一下請盡量不要超過三位,畫面也不好看好不好,好請繼續\n\n09:37.236 --> 09:51.367\n好謝謝那去年總諮詢的時候其實我特別提到就是促轉基金應該開放給民間來直接申請使用那當時也非常感謝就是院長馬上責成了國發會主委來進行相關的研討但是在去年在最近我在追這個檔案局就是我們有\n\n09:52.288 --> 10:09.568\n更細部的一些計畫的時候呢我發現就是說現在給我的這個方案比較像是說我把大家的相關的各部會的相關計畫彙整成為一個平台讓大家可以知道說我可以從哪邊得到這些相關的補助這比較像一個資訊的彙整平台跟我當時\n\n10:10.769 --> 10:31.794\n期待的方向不一樣因為我的期待其實是希望可以讓民間團體直接申請我們引進民間的活力來推動各式各樣的轉型計畫我覺得這個也可以讓公司一起協力但是現在比較像是一個會診平台所以我想要請教一下就是說我們\n\n10:32.754 --> 10:48.315\n有沒有可能再去做一些在這個方向上面更打開一點呢不像只是一個資訊平台還是你們其實是有這個方向在規劃謝謝委員我們今年會規劃一個您所說的就是您提的這個讓民間可以有機會申請的平台\n\n10:50.205 --> 11:11.744\n事實上我也補充說明一下我們從去年開始就修訂了條例民間就即可申請只是我們的申請是到主要的六個部會然後去個別申請原因是我們不希望資源重複的浪費舉例而言如果是政治受難者家屬的心情貧富\n\n11:12.504 --> 11:38.075\n可能衛福部已經有案子在走的時候如果民間再申請就會重複所以我們希望他到衛福部來申請那這樣的話衛福部可以統一支援如果已經政府已經在做的那就不一定民間就要不要做再由部會來做所以我們將來這個平台的整合我們還是會整合進來但是會回到由這個六個部會原來我們法定的六個部會來各自審議但我想請教一下就是說那我直接從後面的例子來討論好了抱歉就是說\n\n11:39.927 --> 12:02.417\n就是說我不太確定如果用這樣子的方式我們的促轉基金的用途會不會非常的重複跟狹隘就是說因為其實我覺得促轉基金的想像可以非常非常的多元以我們現在促轉基金裡面的一些規範來說其實它並沒有非常非常的狹隘可是我們過去的一些補助\n\n12:02.957 --> 12:18.464\n其實都還是在限縮一個原本的一些既有的想像那其實在國外我想舉個一個簡單的例子啦就是柏林博物館其實它也是一個紀念猶太人受難的一個過程的一個博物館那它當時其實建了一個兒童場\n\n12:19.484 --> 12:43.076\n那這個兒童長館他是找兒童們一起來做一個審議會然後一起來討論這個遊戲場要變成什麼樣子然後希望通過這個過程來培立兒童可以參與公共事務來培立這個民主討論的一個機制那這樣子的事情其實在沖繩在美國都有類似的案例那我認為這個其實就是公司協力一個最好的方式所以我想要了解就是說\n\n12:44.196 --> 12:58.383\n我們如果促轉基金要做到像這樣子的一個東西的話如果有人來提出這樣子的創意那他到底要到哪一個部會去做申請呢在既有的六個部會嗎還是他可以有一個更開放的平台或組織可以來協助他申請\n\n12:59.065 --> 13:28.149\n是的非常謝謝委員您的提議非常好可以幫助我們做得更好那我們其實有內部做個討論做過這個討論我們希望是說如果是單一部會的話我們就到部會去申請但是跨部會的我們有些做法可能會跨了兩個部會或三個部會的我們希望是這個平台透過這個平台進到國發會來做統合所以國發會會是由檔案局還是檔案局嗎對檔案局他就會進行這個跨部會的協商\n\n13:29.009 --> 13:49.017\n這個部分我也想請教一下,如果還是回到檔案局的部分,我有一個問題想要跟主委再做一些討論,就是說以政治檔案的研究,檔管局絕對是它的專業,但是要去評估這麼多開放性的一些想像的時候,檔管局的專業上面是否足夠呢?\n\n13:50.894 --> 13:59.929\n其實這是一個很專業的問題所以我們是有一個促轉委員會會由這個委員會來評估協助評估不是我們來評估我們請了很多專家學者\n\n14:00.785 --> 14:25.357\n所以會有另外到時候促轉經濟之後會有促轉委員會來評估那黨管局只是來協助執行是嗎其實各部會的資料也會送到這裡來做統籌的評估那我們請專家來做評估好因為我時間有限那我想我們這一個平台的細節我們就之後來持續跟國發會這邊來研究跟討論謝謝謝謝委員謝謝最後想要請教院長有關於中正紀念堂的問題\n\n14:28.632 --> 14:49.420\n就是在2023年行政院推動了轉型正義業務中長程規劃計監測指標建立方案在去年的時候我們就應該要完成相關的修法法制作業但目前還是沒有完成那我在去年的11月促轉匯報上面的策進方案又再度看到了說要去做一個相關法制的修正\n\n14:50.840 --> 15:18.818\n那我想我們其實過去對中正紀念堂其實已經開過了非常多次的會包含在促轉期間促轉會期間就開了六個方案在鄭麗君副院長在文化部的期間其實也召開了十二場民間的論壇我想其實我們已經開了很多的會應該是時候來做一個決定了那我不曉得說中正紀念堂的轉型其實應該是一個非常非常重要的事情那我其實有看到中正紀念堂轉型小組的呂健興委員\n\n15:19.258 --> 15:43.867\n表示其實行政院曾經有意把中正紀念堂轉到人權館那我想要請教說對於這樣子的一個想法簡單請院長簡單回覆一下您的看法是什麼是的我們在會議當中是想說這個中正紀念堂如果讓它有新的民主人權的意義那麼它的未來的發展就不會是過去大家對威權的記憶就像\n\n15:44.858 --> 16:01.319\n我小時候看總統府它就是威權可是我現在看總統府它就是民主的象徵因為我們用人民的力量改變了它的結構改變了它的背景也改變了它存在的意義如果我們同樣的力量用更多的人權文化民主\n\n16:01.980 --> 16:28.237\n甚至轉型正義的意義也在裡面讓大家認為應該是對威權的記憶的這些建築物轉化成這個功能的話那又是給我們跟給我們的下一代新的一個精神上的期望我想抱歉喔就是說院長就是說中間紀念堂的轉型是一個非常非常重要的工作我想我們還是必須直面歷史過去中間紀念堂裡面的這一位我們大家現在住在裡面的這一位\n\n16:29.658 --> 16:46.792\n蔣介石先生對台灣的一些傷害我想這是一件非常困難的工作但是我們也必須堅持啦因為還是回到我剛剛講的那一句話只有深化轉型正義直面歷史才能夠打造社會民主社會的韌性那這次這個邀請\n\n","segments":[{"start":52.606,"end":54.529,"text":"我們有請院長麻煩再請卓院長備選"},{"start":67.299,"end":90.83,"text":"國民黨昨天開了一個記者會高喊反戒嚴聽起來好像在捍衛民主但問題是當年執行長達38年的戒嚴的政黨就是國民黨而且國民黨為了護航過去壓迫台灣人的歷史不僅在我們的立法院無所不用其極的拖延我們的一些轉型正義的工作模糊轉型正義的定義"},{"start":91.67,"end":107.733,"text":"然後甚至在預算上面大砍了黨產會內政部教育部還有文化部的一些相關預算那我要跟院長說您知道嗎在這個凍結的預算如果7月前無法解凍我們的228國家紀念館就要因為付不出營運費用而休館了"},{"start":108.354,"end":136.923,"text":"所以我今天看到這兩個這個新聞的時候我只有這兩個字荒謬因為今天台灣的民主是有多少的前輩犧牲了生命犧牲了青春才得到的這是不止息的一個抗爭絕對不是國民黨的恩賜可是國民黨為什麼還可以正義凜然的臉不紅氣不喊的喊出來要反戒嚴我覺得有一個非常大的問題就是大多數的民眾對於戒嚴這兩個字其實是非常不清楚的"},{"start":137.878,"end":157.184,"text":"所以就很容易被這樣子操弄所以我想跟院長分享一段東吳大學政治系教授陳俊宏老師在俄巴的共聲音音樂會上面的一個演講這個片段他講的是說從匈牙利和波蘭的例子來看儘管經歷了共產政權的垮台"},{"start":158.044,"end":174.979,"text":"但是公民如果持續保有威權懷舊的政治態度就容易使新興民主體制下的領導人進行民粹動員讓公民接受那些違背民主原則的決定進而破壞法治精神導致民主倒退"},{"start":175.72,"end":192.598,"text":"匈牙利曾經是東歐民主化的成功典範但是如果公民社會對於威權沒有免疫力那民主就可能一步一步的被蠶食這些國家30年的處境跟台灣非常的相似但他們一步一步走回頭路我們台灣真的要從道復策嗎"},{"start":193.779,"end":220.222,"text":"所以在今年1月的時候歐洲理事會去強調歷史教育對培養民主公民意識至關重要因為歷史不是過去而是我們如何面對未來如果我們不讓社會正視過去的不義讓下一代知道威權的可怕那麼民主的危機就會隨時發生所以今天我想要就深化轉型正義才有民主任性這個主題來跟院長做仔細的討論"},{"start":222.143,"end":237.834,"text":"在二月八當天呢中樞儀式的時候呢賴總統其實發表演說指出要請文化部啟動審議程序例如藝光教會等具有轉型正義意義的場所與保存維護讓大家都能夠走進歷史的現場反思思考"},{"start":238.655,"end":252.555,"text":"威權統治對人權自由的破壞進而鬆化台灣的民族我認為這是一個很好的開始但是從促轉會解散到現在已經三年了過去促轉會審定相關博弈遺址的時候是根據審定博弈遺址作業要點"},{"start":253.897,"end":281.473,"text":"解散之後整個工作移轉到文化部但是目前為止文化部並沒有任何的審定要點詢問相關程序都說要等到立法院三讀立法這個不易移植保存條例才能夠進行後續的活化所以我想要請教院長就是說既然總統都已經清楚的講出來要由文化部來啟動一個審議的程序那麼我們相關的時間表是什麼而且如果以藝光教會這個來作為案例我們什麼時候會啟動"},{"start":283.194,"end":311.298,"text":"我們的程序又是什麼首先台灣因為有過去長期的戒嚴這個戒嚴的教訓以及現在世界各國各種民主發展改革的過程才造成今天台灣有這樣一個勇敢面對極權還能夠堅守民主的自我的一個心理上最強大的武器所以我們在這個基礎上我們應該是相信台灣是一個永遠民主自由的地方"},{"start":312.078,"end":335.492,"text":"那天在二二八當天總統所說的他最大的意義是希望台灣永遠永遠不要再發生像二二八這樣的事件所以他把藝光教會把他先把他指定為是具有轉型正義的一個意義的一個場所那未來文化部就會啟動他整個審議的程序那審議的過程請文化部請李部長來做說明"},{"start":337.817,"end":349.731,"text":"跟委員報告有關一貫教會的事情我們其實人權管已經啟動了一個我們就擬定一個未來由民間主動申請的時候我們給他一個"},{"start":350.933,"end":369.113,"text":"不算是不義於此但是是關於轉型正義有意義的場域這樣的名稱作為一個暫時的一個取代另外有關不義於此的條例去年7月18送進立法院審議的過程中我們在等待結果但是目前"},{"start":371.894,"end":396.019,"text":"處長會給我們的42處不義遺址還有64處潛在不義遺址其實我想要知道就是說未來啦因為我們還是要更積極的去審定嘛因為不義遺址其實就是一直不停的在被破壞所以我們是不是可以有更積極的一個審定要點或是暫行方案這個部分是不是可以來其實我們2026年以前就會把所有潛在不義遺址審定完畢其實我們有在進行"},{"start":396.889,"end":425.583,"text":"但是對於現在還有很多還沒有被認定的不義遺址呢我們現在是沒有任何相關的審定要點所以我們是不是可以來擬定呢院長是不是可以責成文化部我們一個月以內來提出一個相關的解決方案可以嗎當天總統所宣示的那就是一個這個階段的起點我們用這個起點從不義遺址或者是具有轉型正義的意義的這個場域我們就開始有一個新的方式跟階段性的作為文化部就會啟動"},{"start":426.431,"end":442.394,"text":"好 那我希望可以在一個月內看到一些相關的一個規劃好嗎好 謝謝 謝謝文化部那接下來就是要來講就是說針對於不義職的保存其實威權象徵的去除也是轉型正義中相當重要的工作"},{"start":443.135,"end":471.137,"text":"最近其實中原大學配合了一個自己主動決議他們要來配合轉型正義來去做修改中正樓的這個大樓的名稱我認為這對轉型正義是一個非常大的一個進展而這件事情智慧可以成功的是我們的政策引導這是我們的政策引導做出來所以我也想要請教因為其實我們現在還是有非常多的路民出轉會的報告其實有提到路民的要更名所以我是否可以請教交通部部長"},{"start":474.127,"end":475.128,"text":"我們可以時間暫停一下嗎時間暫停諮詢請繼續"},{"start":484.221,"end":508.186,"text":"謝謝好就是說我們是不是可以依循我們這個內政部的一些相關的補助方式呢讓地方政府在進行交通建設的時候在落名或是佔名的命名之上也能夠透過加分項目或是增加補助金額引導縣市政府可以像中原大學這樣子自動自發的啟動跟民作業不要像去年桃園市政府當時引發了非常大的爭議就是民眾的投票民意"},{"start":508.726,"end":531.486,"text":"完全背道而馳把捷運站民用了很多用中正命名的這真的是大開轉型正義的倒車不曉得交通部長的想法是什麼好 報告委員未來這個部分我們可以納入討論那我回到部裡面再跟部裡面的同仁來討論未來的審核的過程當中把這些也納入對 那這個部分的話我們是大概什麼時候可以有一些進一步的了解呢"},{"start":532.199,"end":543.895,"text":"我跟內部先討論,那一個月之內向委員報告好,謝謝部長那再來就是要請國發會主委上臺,謝謝時間暫停,謝謝時間暫停,那文化部長跟交通部長可以請回"},{"start":553.706,"end":573.918,"text":"借這個時間暫停順便宣告一下,我們的硬體建築就是三位所以說所有隔園的備詢不要超過三位一個是硬體建築,硬體設備就是三位另外部長這些畫面我特別也跟院長各部會隔園溝通一下請盡量不要超過三位,畫面也不好看好不好,好請繼續"},{"start":577.236,"end":591.367,"text":"好謝謝那去年總諮詢的時候其實我特別提到就是促轉基金應該開放給民間來直接申請使用那當時也非常感謝就是院長馬上責成了國發會主委來進行相關的研討但是在去年在最近我在追這個檔案局就是我們有"},{"start":592.288,"end":609.568,"text":"更細部的一些計畫的時候呢我發現就是說現在給我的這個方案比較像是說我把大家的相關的各部會的相關計畫彙整成為一個平台讓大家可以知道說我可以從哪邊得到這些相關的補助這比較像一個資訊的彙整平台跟我當時"},{"start":610.769,"end":631.794,"text":"期待的方向不一樣因為我的期待其實是希望可以讓民間團體直接申請我們引進民間的活力來推動各式各樣的轉型計畫我覺得這個也可以讓公司一起協力但是現在比較像是一個會診平台所以我想要請教一下就是說我們"},{"start":632.754,"end":648.315,"text":"有沒有可能再去做一些在這個方向上面更打開一點呢不像只是一個資訊平台還是你們其實是有這個方向在規劃謝謝委員我們今年會規劃一個您所說的就是您提的這個讓民間可以有機會申請的平台"},{"start":650.205,"end":671.744,"text":"事實上我也補充說明一下我們從去年開始就修訂了條例民間就即可申請只是我們的申請是到主要的六個部會然後去個別申請原因是我們不希望資源重複的浪費舉例而言如果是政治受難者家屬的心情貧富"},{"start":672.504,"end":698.075,"text":"可能衛福部已經有案子在走的時候如果民間再申請就會重複所以我們希望他到衛福部來申請那這樣的話衛福部可以統一支援如果已經政府已經在做的那就不一定民間就要不要做再由部會來做所以我們將來這個平台的整合我們還是會整合進來但是會回到由這個六個部會原來我們法定的六個部會來各自審議但我想請教一下就是說那我直接從後面的例子來討論好了抱歉就是說"},{"start":699.927,"end":722.417,"text":"就是說我不太確定如果用這樣子的方式我們的促轉基金的用途會不會非常的重複跟狹隘就是說因為其實我覺得促轉基金的想像可以非常非常的多元以我們現在促轉基金裡面的一些規範來說其實它並沒有非常非常的狹隘可是我們過去的一些補助"},{"start":722.957,"end":738.464,"text":"其實都還是在限縮一個原本的一些既有的想像那其實在國外我想舉個一個簡單的例子啦就是柏林博物館其實它也是一個紀念猶太人受難的一個過程的一個博物館那它當時其實建了一個兒童場"},{"start":739.484,"end":763.076,"text":"那這個兒童長館他是找兒童們一起來做一個審議會然後一起來討論這個遊戲場要變成什麼樣子然後希望通過這個過程來培立兒童可以參與公共事務來培立這個民主討論的一個機制那這樣子的事情其實在沖繩在美國都有類似的案例那我認為這個其實就是公司協力一個最好的方式所以我想要了解就是說"},{"start":764.196,"end":778.383,"text":"我們如果促轉基金要做到像這樣子的一個東西的話如果有人來提出這樣子的創意那他到底要到哪一個部會去做申請呢在既有的六個部會嗎還是他可以有一個更開放的平台或組織可以來協助他申請"},{"start":779.065,"end":808.149,"text":"是的 非常謝謝委員您的提議非常好可以幫助我們做得更好那我們其實有內部做個討論做過這個討論我們希望是說如果是單一部會的話我們就到部會去申請但是跨部會的我們有些做法可能會跨了兩個部會或三個部會的我們希望是這個平台透過這個平台進到國發會來做統合所以國發會會是由檔案局還是檔案局嗎對 檔案局他就會進行這個跨部會的協商"},{"start":809.009,"end":829.017,"text":"這個部分我也想請教一下,如果還是回到檔案局的部分,我有一個問題想要跟主委再做一些討論,就是說以政治檔案的研究,檔管局絕對是它的專業,但是要去評估這麼多開放性的一些想像的時候,檔管局的專業上面是否足夠呢?"},{"start":830.894,"end":839.929,"text":"其實這是一個很專業的問題所以我們是有一個促轉委員會會由這個委員會來評估協助評估不是我們來評估我們請了很多專家學者"},{"start":840.785,"end":865.357,"text":"所以會有另外到時候促轉經濟之後會有促轉委員會來評估那黨管局只是來協助執行是嗎其實各部會的資料也會送到這裡來做統籌的評估那我們請專家來做評估好因為我時間有限那我想我們這一個平台的細節我們就之後來持續跟國發會這邊來研究跟討論謝謝謝謝委員謝謝最後想要請教院長有關於中正紀念堂的問題"},{"start":868.632,"end":889.42,"text":"就是在2023年行政院推動了轉型正義業務中長程規劃計監測指標建立方案在去年的時候我們就應該要完成相關的修法法制作業但目前還是沒有完成那我在去年的11月促轉匯報上面的策進方案又再度看到了說要去做一個相關法制的修正"},{"start":890.84,"end":918.818,"text":"那我想我們其實過去對中正紀念堂其實已經開過了非常多次的會包含在促轉期間促轉會期間就開了六個方案在鄭麗君副院長在文化部的期間其實也召開了十二場民間的論壇我想其實我們已經開了很多的會應該是時候來做一個決定了那我不曉得說中正紀念堂的轉型其實應該是一個非常非常重要的事情那我其實有看到中正紀念堂轉型小組的呂健興委員"},{"start":919.258,"end":943.867,"text":"表示其實行政院曾經有意把中正紀念堂轉到人權館那我想要請教說對於這樣子的一個想法簡單請院長簡單回覆一下您的看法是什麼是的 我們在會議當中是想說這個中正紀念堂如果讓它有新的民主人權的意義那麼它的未來的發展就不會是過去大家對威權的記憶就像"},{"start":944.858,"end":961.319,"text":"我小時候看總統府它就是威權可是我現在看總統府它就是民主的象徵因為我們用人民的力量改變了它的結構改變了它的背景也改變了它存在的意義如果我們同樣的力量用更多的人權文化民主"},{"start":961.98,"end":988.237,"text":"甚至轉型正義的意義也在裡面讓大家認為應該是對威權的記憶的這些建築物轉化成這個功能的話那又是給我們跟給我們的下一代新的一個精神上的期望我想 抱歉喔就是說 院長就是說中間紀念堂的轉型是一個非常非常重要的工作我想我們還是必須直面歷史過去中間紀念堂裡面的這一位我們大家現在住在裡面的這一位"},{"start":989.658,"end":1006.792,"text":"蔣介石先生對台灣的一些傷害我想這是一件非常困難的工作但是我們也必須堅持啦因為還是回到我剛剛講的那一句話只有深化轉型正義直面歷史才能夠打造社會民主社會的韌性那這次這個邀請"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":215,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（15時17分）謝謝主席。我們有請院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：張委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：院長好。國民黨昨天開了一個記者會，高喊反戒嚴，聽起來好像在捍衛民主，但問題是當年執行長達38年戒嚴的政黨，就是國民黨，而且國民黨為了護航過去壓迫臺灣人的歷史，不僅在立法院無所不用其極的拖延我們一些轉型正義的工作，模糊轉型正義的定義，甚至在預算上面大砍了黨產會、內政部、教育部，還有文化部的一些相關預算，我要跟院長說，您知道嗎？這個凍結的預算，如果7月前無法解凍，我們二二八國家紀念館就要因為付不出營運費用而休館了，所以我今天看到這個新聞的時候，我只有這兩個字，「荒謬」，因為今天臺灣的民主是有多少前輩犧牲生命、犧牲青春才得到的，這是不會止息的一個抗爭，絕對不是國民黨的恩賜，可是國民黨為什麼還可以正義凜然，臉不紅、氣不喘的喊出要反戒嚴，我覺得有一個非常大的問題，就是大多數的民眾對於「戒嚴」這兩個字，其實是非常不清楚的，所以就很容易被這樣子操弄。","我想跟院長分享一段東吳大學政治系教授陳俊宏老師在二二八共生音樂會上的一個演講片段，他說從匈牙利和波蘭的例子來看，儘管經歷了共產政權的垮台，但是公民如果持續保有威權懷舊的政治態度，就容易使新興民主體制下的領導人進行民粹動員，讓公民接受那些違背民主原則的決定，進而破壞法治精神，導致民主倒退。匈牙利曾經是東歐民主化的成功典範，但是如果公民社會對於威權沒有免疫力，那民主就可能一步一步的被蠶食，這些國家30年的處境跟臺灣非常相似，但他們一步一步走回頭路，我們臺灣真的要重蹈覆轍嗎？所以在今年1月的時候歐洲理事會就強調，歷史教育對培養民主公民意識至關重要，因為歷史不是過去，而是我們如何面對未來，如果我們不讓社會正視過去的不義，讓下一代知道威權的可怕，那麼民主的危機就會隨時發生。所以今天我想要就「深化轉型正義才有民主韌性」這個主題來跟院長做仔細的討論。在二二八當天舉行中樞儀式的時候，賴總統發表演說指出，要請文化部啟動審議程序，例如義光教會等具有轉型正義意義的場所，予以保存維護，讓大家都能夠走進歷史的現場反思，思考威權統治對人權自由的破壞，進而深化臺灣的民主，我認為這是一個很好的開始。但是從促轉會解散到現在已經3年了，過去促轉會審定相關不義遺址的時候是根據審定不義遺址作業要點，解散之後整個工作移轉到文化部，但是到目前為止，文化部並沒有任何的審定要點，詢問相關程序都說要等到立法院三讀通過不義遺址保存條例才能夠進行後續的活化。所以我想要請教院長，既然總統都已經清楚的講出來，要由文化部來啟動一個審議的程序，那麼我們相關的時間表是什麼？而且如果以義光教會作為案例，我們什麼時候會啟動？我們的程序又是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：首先，臺灣因為有過去長期戒嚴的這個教訓，以及現在世界各國各種民主發展改革的過程，才造成今天臺灣有這樣一個勇敢面對極權，還能夠堅守民主的自我心理上最強大的武器，所以我們在這個基礎上，我們應該相信臺灣是一個永遠民主自由的地方。在二二八當天總統所說的，它最大的意義是希望臺灣永遠、永遠不要再發生像二二八這樣的事件，所以他先把義光教會指定為具有轉型正義意義的一個場所，未來文化部就會啟動整個審議程序，那審議的過程請文化部李部長來說明。"],["李部長遠：跟委員報告，有關義光教會的事情，其實我們人權館已經擬訂一個未來由民間主動申請時，我們給它一個不算是不義遺址，但是是具有轉型正義意義的場域這樣的名稱，作為一個暫時的取代。另外，有關不義遺址條例，去年7月18日送進立法院審議，我們在等待結果，但是目前促轉會給我們的42處不義遺址和64處潛在不義遺址……"],["張委員雅琳：部長，其實我想要知道的就是未來，因為我們還是要更積極的去審定，因為不義遺址其實一直不停被破壞，所以我們是不是可以有更積極的一個審定要點或暫行方案，這個部分是不是可以來……"],["李部長遠：是，可以，其實我們2026年以前就會把所有潛在不義遺址審定完畢，我們有在進行。"],["張委員雅琳：但是對於現在還有很多還沒有被認定的不義遺址，我們現在是沒有任何相關的審定要點。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["張委員雅琳：所以我們是不是可以來擬訂呢？"],["李部長遠：是，沒問題。"],["張委員雅琳：院長是不是可以責成文化部一個月以內提出一個相關的解決方案？可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當天總統所宣示的就是這個階段的起點。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們用這個起點，從不義遺址或是具有轉型正義意義的場域，我們就開始有個新的方式跟階段性的作為，文化部就會啟動。"],["張委員雅琳：好，那我希望可以在一個月以內看到相關的規劃，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：可以。"],["李部長遠：是，沒問題。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝文化部。","接下來就是針對不義遺址的保存，其實威權象徵的去除也是轉型正義中相當重要的工作。最近中原大學自己主動決議，他們要配合轉型正義而去修改中正樓這個大樓的名稱，我認為這對轉型正義是一個非常大的進展，而這件事情之所以會成功，是我們的政策引導做出來的。所以我也想要請教，促轉會的報告有提到，其實我們現在還有非常多的路名要更名，所以我是不是可以請教交通部部長？時間可以暫停一下嗎？"],["主席：時間暫停。","請繼續質詢。"],["張委員雅琳：請問交通部部長，我們是不是可以依循內政部一些相關的補助方式，讓地方政府在進行交通建設的時候，在路名或站名的命名上，也能夠透過加分項目或者增加補助金額，引導縣市政府可以像中原大學這樣子自動自發地啟動更名作業。不要像去年桃園市政府當時引發了非常大的爭議，跟民眾的投票、民意完全背道而馳，把很多捷運站名用「中正」命名，這真的是大開轉型正義的倒車。不曉得交通部部長的想法是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，未來這個部分我們可以納入討論，我回到部裡面再跟部裡的同仁討論，未來的審核過程當中會把這個也納入。"],["張委員雅琳：對，這個部分的話，我們大概什麼時候可以有進一步的了解？"],["陳部長世凱：我跟內部先討論，一個月之內向委員報告。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝部長。","再來要請國發會主委上臺，時間暫停，謝謝。"],["主席：時間暫停。交通部請回。"],["張委員雅琳：文化部長和交通部長可以請回。"],["主席：文化部請回。","藉這個時間暫停順便宣告一下，我們的硬體建築就是3位，所以所有內閣閣員的備詢不要超過3位，一個是硬體建築，硬體設備就是3位；另外就是部長，今天的畫面太多……"],["張委員雅琳：對，我剛剛有請他們回去。"],["主席：我特別也跟院長、各部會閣員溝通一下，請儘量不要超過3位，畫面也不好看，好不好？好，請繼續。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝院長。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。去年總質詢的時候我特別提到，促轉基金應該開放給民間直接申請使用，當時也非常感謝院長馬上責成了國發會主委進行相關的研討。但最近我在追檔案局有沒有更細部的一些計畫時，我發現現在給我的這個方案，比較像是把各部會的相關計畫彙整成為一個平臺，讓大家可以知道可以從哪邊得到相關的補助，這比較像一個資訊的彙整平臺，跟我當時期待的方向不一樣。因為我的期待其實是希望可以讓民間團體直接申請，我們引進民間的活力推動各式各樣的轉型計畫，我覺得這也可以讓公私一起協力，但現在比較像是一個彙整平臺。所以我想要請教，我們有沒有可能在這個方向上面更打開一點，不要只是一個資訊平臺，還是你們其實是有這個方向在規劃？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員，我們今年會規劃一個您提的這個讓民間可以有機會申請的平臺。事實上，我也補充說明一下，我們從去年開始就修訂了條例，民間即可申請，只是我們的申請是到主要的6個部會去個別申請，原因是我們不希望資源重複浪費。舉例而言，如果是政治受難者家屬的心情平復，可能衛福部已經有案子在走的時候，如果民間再申請就會重複，所以我們希望他到衛福部申請，這樣的話衛福部可以統一資源，如果政府已經在做的，那就不一定民間就……要不要做，再由部會來做。所以將來這個平臺的整合，我們還是會整合進來，但是會回到由這6個部會、原來法定的6個部會各自審議。"],["張委員雅琳：但我想請教，我直接從後面的例子來討論好了，我不太確定如果用這樣子的方式，我們促轉基金的用途會不會非常地重複及狹隘？因為我覺得促轉基金的想像可以非常非常多元，以現在促轉基金裡面的一些規範來說，其實它並沒有非常非常地狹隘，可是我們過去的一些補助都還是在限縮原本一些既有的想像。","在國外，我想舉一個簡單的例子，柏林博物館也是紀念猶太人受難過程的一個博物館，他當時其實建了一個兒童場館，這個兒童場館是找兒童們一起來做一個審議會，一起討論這個遊戲場要變成什麼樣子，希望透過這個過程培力兒童可以參與公共事務、培力民主討論的機制。這樣子的事情在沖繩、美國都有類似的案例，我認為這其實就是公私協力的一個最好的方式。所以我想要了解，我們促轉基金要做到像這樣子的一個東西的話，如果有人提出這樣的創意，那他到底要到哪一個部會去申請，向既有的6個部會嗎？還是可以有一個更開放的平臺或組織可以協助他申請？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，非常謝謝委員，您的提議非常好，可以幫助我們做得更好。我們內部曾做過這個討論，我們希望如果是單一部會的話，我們就到部會去申請，但是跨部會的，我們有些做法可能會跨了兩個部會或三個部會的，我們希望是透過這個平臺進到國發會來做統合，國發會就會進行跨部會的……"],["張委員雅琳：所以國發會會由檔案局……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，檔案局就會……"],["張委員雅琳：還是檔案局嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，檔案局就會進行跨部會的協商來……"],["張委員雅琳：這個部分我也想請教一下，如果還是回到檔案局的話，我有一個問題想要跟主委再做一些討論，政治檔案的研究絕對是檔管局的專業，但是要去評估這麼多開放性的一些想像的時候，檔管局在專業上面是否足夠呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：其實這是一個很專業的問題，所以我們有一個促轉的委員會，會由這個委員會來協助評估，不是我們來評估，我們請了很多專家學者。"],["張委員雅琳：所以到時候促轉基金會有促轉的委員會來評估，檔管局只是來協助執行，是嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，其實各部會的資料也會送到這裡來做統籌的評估，我們會請專家來做評估。"],["張委員雅琳：因為我時間有限，有關這個平臺的細節就之後再持續跟國發會這邊來研究跟討論。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的，沒問題。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝委員。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。","最後想要請教院長有關中正紀念堂的問題。根據2023年「行政院推動轉型正義業務中長程規劃暨監測指標建立方案」的計畫，去年的時候就應該完成相關修法的法制作業，但目前還是沒有完成，我在去年11月促轉會報上面的策進方案又再度看到說要去做相關法制的修正。針對中正紀念堂，過去我們其實已經開過非常多次的會，包含在促轉會期間就提過6個方案，在鄭麗君副院長擔任文化部長期間其實也召開了12場民間論壇，我想其實我們已經開了很多會，應該是時候來做一個決定了。","中正紀念堂的轉型應該是一個非常、非常重要的事情，其實我有看到中正紀念堂轉型小組的呂建興委員表示行政院曾經有意把中正紀念堂轉到人權館，對於這樣子的想法，我想請院長簡單回復一下您的看法是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，我們在會議當中是想，這個中正紀念堂如果讓它有新的民主、人權的意義，那麼它未來的發展就不會是過去大家對威權的記憶。就像我小時候看總統府，它就是威權，可是我現在看總統府，它就是民主的象徵，因為我們用人民的力量改變了它的結構，改變了它的背景，也改變了它存在的意義，如果我們以同樣的力量，用更多的人權、文化、民主，甚至轉型正義的意義也在裡面，讓大家認為應該是對威權記憶的這些建築物轉化成這個功能的話，那又是給我們跟我們下一代新的一個精神上的啟示。"],["張委員雅琳：抱歉，院長，中正紀念堂的轉型是一個非常、非常重要的工作，我想我們還是必須直面歷史，基於過去中正紀念堂裡面的這一位、現在在裡面的這一位蔣介石先生對臺灣的一些傷害，我想這是一件非常困難的工作……"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["張委員雅琳：但是我們也必須堅持啦！因為還是回到我剛剛講的那一句話，只有深化轉型正義，直面歷史，才能夠打造民主社會的韌性。"],["卓院長榮泰：完全支持、完全認同。"],["張委員雅琳：這個請院長一定要堅持。謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員、謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來請登記第39號鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","羅美玲","張嘉郡","林楚茵","黃健豪","林岱樺","邱鎮軍","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","廖先翔","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","郭國文","謝龍介","沈伯洋","張智倫","陳雪生"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2025-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00004","1142601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1142601_00004"}}}