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\"經濟、資通、安全上面的考量謝謝那因為時間的關係我剛剛講的都是關鍵基礎技術我現在想講一下關鍵基礎設施那最近因為治安案件頻傳就是常常被攻擊裡面當然就是最近發生的這個馬街醫院還有張機有沒有就是他們的資料外洩被駭客攻擊我想這個大家應該都很熟悉了我就不多說那因為畢竟醫院也算是關鍵基礎設施的一環所以至少我們的速發部是能夠去幫忙的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 740.243, \"end\": 740.403, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 740.403, \"end\": 740.583, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 740.583, \"end\": 740.743, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 740.743, \"end\": 740.883, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 740.883, \"end\": 740.983, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 740.983, \"end\": 741.063, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 741.063, \"end\": 741.203, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 741.203, \"end\": 742.384, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 742.384, \"end\": 742.544, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": 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\"start\": 949.443, \"end\": 949.663, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 949.663, \"end\": 949.763, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 949.763, \"end\": 949.883, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 949.883, \"end\": 950.043, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 950.043, \"end\": 950.164, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 950.164, \"end\": 950.444, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 950.444, \"end\": 951.144, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 951.144, \"end\": 951.264, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 951.264, \"end\": 951.284, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 955.785, \"end\": 955.805, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:11,839 --> 00:00:12,500\n謝謝主席,有請院長,謝謝麻煩再請昨天院長備詢\n\n2\n00:00:49,167 --> 00:01:12,354\n謝謝沈委員好委員長好那這個因為上個禮拜這個賴總統有這一個記者會有一個關於我們現在民主受到很多的滲透中國的攻擊等等之類的這個國家安全現在要守衛啦所以我今天用這個民主保衛戰來作為一個名稱那但是呢因為裡面有很多的法案是過去一年我們已經推出的\n\n3\n00:01:12,814 --> 00:01:30,897\n所以我特別針對裡面的大概是第15還第16點關於這個資訊安全關於認知作戰這一塊我認為還是有必要理與理性所以我今天大概是問這邊有列三個一個是跟經濟安全有關大概就是像日本2019年一直到現在一直在做那個經濟安全保障\n\n4\n00:01:31,477 --> 00:01:56,044\n那另外一塊是跟資通安全有關有可能會等一下要請到這個書法部的部長那公民的權利我看今天時間可能會來不及但是我剛剛有先跟這個市方部長先聊過所以我可能會著重在前面這兩塊那第一個呢我從這個經濟安全保障開始就是川普2.0以來就是台美關係其實在這邊呢有很多字但是重點就是那紅色的就是一直在講晶片\n\n5\n00:01:56,664 --> 00:02:18,861\n那我看今天還有到上個禮拜就是很多委員的質詢就一直也都是在針對晶片台積電現在去美國啊會不會被吃掉啊什麼等等之類的那我覺得有點搔不到癢處啦我們現在的整個半導體的聚落呢在台灣其實算是非常的重要我們本身就是一個半導體的熱點那我之前呢就在辦公室的時候我們就請\n\n6\n00:02:20,029 --> 00:02:46,904\n辦公室來做一個很簡單的這種商業很常識的這個SWAT的分析就是說我們現在半導體目前我們的機會跟我們的威脅到底是什麼那其實我們的機會一直以來都是因為美國對於先進這個晶片製造它有某種程度的不安那它也是想要把一些製程把它放在美國那這也是我們的機會因為有這個非紅供應鏈有民主供應鏈嘛但是國民黨很喜歡把這個放在T就是Threads\n\n7\n00:02:47,384 --> 00:03:02,114\n他認為說沒有這就是美國要吃掉我們的證據那用這樣來散播一些以美論不過我認為他們有一個點是我們真的必須要注意的就是其實美國在擔心晶片這件事情他最擔心的地方其實還是技術的外流\n\n8\n00:03:02,841 --> 00:03:26,742\n也就是說呢我們如果作為一個節點我們被中國滲透的那麼嚴重結果我們的技術竟然被中國拿去我認為這才是美國最擔心的地方所以整件事情我們本來好好的從日本到德國到美國這樣的一個佈局台積電遍佈全球它本來是一個好的產業佈局但裡面就會有一個漏洞就是如果今天台灣成為白手套要怎麼辦\n\n9\n00:03:27,748 --> 00:03:51,639\n所以在這邊,這都是這陣子的新聞,這個3月4號才一個禮拜前的新聞而已,新加坡就破獲這個中國幫買輝達晶片的白手套,我記得是逮捕了三個人左右。然後這個華爾街日報在3月2號的時候也有特別點名到台灣,就說我們是不是成為一個購買輝達NVIDIA伺服器的白手套。\n\n10\n00:03:52,299 --> 00:04:17,501\n所以這件事情我在這個不是我現在要問的問題但你可以看到這是我之前的PowerPoint這是2024年10月30的時候那時候我有問部長有問這個經濟部我那時候也有問教育部就是關於說這一些交流還有一些公司成為白手套之後我們到底有沒有把他們當作我們管制上的一個清單那時候有算人科技嘛比特大陸嘛它背後有華為嘛\n\n11\n00:04:18,482 --> 00:04:47,662\n那時候我們有跟這一個經濟部的專員其實已經討論過他很忌妒他要做更新啊等等之類的那這一個只是可是我認為這可能只是最低階的因為你今天把它列到這一個產品的名單上面或者你把它放在這個出口的管制上面這可能是遠遠不夠因為這個並沒有解決假設他們的人來這邊做滲透他們把技術偷走要怎麼辦所以我今年有提案就是說去年有提案國安法第三條跟這個兩岸條例第九條\n\n12\n00:04:48,422 --> 00:05:16,249\n都是針對這個技術竊取來特別做相關的規範所以在這邊想要問就是院長因為我們現在去年大概提了十部法律的修法很多都跟經濟安全有關但我們現在等待的是院版就是說有些法案一直被藍白卡住那個沒話講但有些我們是在等待院版的出現所以針對第一個就是技術外流這件事情相關法規範的盤點有沒有可能在這一個會期來進行\n\n13\n00:05:19,217 --> 00:05:35,128\n現在委員提到的重要的內容相關的法案行政院代表政府應該在必要的時候尤其是現在這個關鍵的時刻拿出政府的態度弄一個符合現在這個安全上所需要的版本\n\n14\n00:05:36,128 --> 00:05:52,494\n絕對是政府應該做的事情但是我們是希望說朝野內部朝野黨團之間的意見能夠再趨於一致那這行政院員在這個時候跟大家討論以後形成一個共同的版本也可以這一點就要拜託院長然後部長是不是要補充什麼我們已經要來徵定這個經濟間的罪來修正兩岸條例\n\n15\n00:05:57,056 --> 00:06:13,706\n那院長也有責成我們法務部調查局跟國安局入委會勞動部以及經濟部成立這個跨部會工作小組強化機關之間的橫向聯繫加強查緝相關不法活動因為我們認為如果不\n\n16\n00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:29,832\n很重乏的對經濟安全來講的話確實如委員所指正的很容易把這些訊息給流露出去那一定要透過法務部嚴懲那才會產生效益\n\n17\n00:06:33,243 --> 00:06:48,418\n謝謝部長我覺得這邊講到一個重點就是說假設我們今天要做管制但是我們一定要有查緝的量能其實如果沒有查緝的量能或者沒有回報的機制等於說你把它擺在那邊這個經濟安保也不容易建立所以這也是我認為法務部應該要扮演蠻重要的一個角色\n\n18\n00:06:49,139 --> 00:07:14,452\n那在這邊呢我剛好在這一個二月的時候有去聽美國一場聽證會他也在講這件事情他裡面就有做了幾個建議第一個加強出口管制跟投資的限制然後智慧的貿易限制但這一個呢其實對我們台灣來講還要再做一個轉換因為晶片本身是放在技術類它不是終端的產品嘛所以單純做這樣的一個貿易限制可能還不夠完整第二個他提到\n\n19\n00:07:15,132 --> 00:07:36,446\n國家級的技術要有一個風險評估的單位這個日本現在是有一個專責單位從19年做到現在就專門在做經濟安保了第三個就是要追蹤中國的技術發展我認為台灣不管是經濟部還是事務發部應該有這個能力做這一個美方那時候在聽證會的這三個建議那這個才是我們真的我們投資美國\n\n20\n00:07:37,106 --> 00:07:55,959\n我們又建立了非紅的產業鏈然後又符合相關的規範不是做最基本的什麼資安CMMC的規範那麼簡單而已而是這整體的大方向跟美國一起來做協作不過這邊我就有點擔心就是因為剛剛講的因為技術類的畢竟它是晶片是屬於技術類我們目前貿易法13條跟兩岸條例的35條\n\n21\n00:07:58,180 --> 00:08:14,216\n大部分都是可以看到這個文字高科技貨品的出口的實體管理名單比如說輸往俄羅斯白俄羅斯高科技的貨品的清單就是國家核心的關鍵技術很難直接扣在這個貿易法跟兩岸條例\n\n22\n00:08:14,756 --> 00:08:32,823\n所以這是這一個會期我覺得我們蠻重要的工作既然總統已經在談話裡面說到說我們今天針對中國的滲透跟威脅要越來越多的願板要出現嘛那我覺得除了剛剛因為剛剛講的是人我們剛剛提到的兩岸條例的那一個修正跟國安法的修正是針對人那個人留我們來做修正\n\n23\n00:08:33,443 --> 00:08:43,808\n這一個部分是貿易法跟兩岸條例是針對這一些看起來是貨品物品但其實我們是要針對技術的方面把它涵蓋進去做修正我覺得這兩個可能都要並行\n\n24\n00:08:45,595 --> 00:09:11,538\n所以總統那些材質裡面就是人流物流音流技術要有序的調整我們也知道我們現在已經要求了內控外控都要做到什麼東西該進來不該進來尤其重要我們重要的零組件或是晶片要出去去到哪裡如果違法違規違法的人我們現在的法令我感覺惡阻力不夠情度不高所以效果不佳我們會從這個方向來著手\n\n25\n00:09:13,306 --> 00:09:37,523\n謝謝院長那我就希望至少我們從人流物流的這兩個方向我們都來做立法看這一個會期至少能夠討論出一個大方向那另外一個是這個我不知道院長會怎麼想就是說就像我剛剛一直提到的以日本為例它就是有一個主責的一個單位它是直接就是在他們的那一個部長部長室不是部長室就他們的首長室他管的是全部橫跨每一個部門的經濟安全\n\n26\n00:09:38,163 --> 00:09:54,699\n因為我這一方面我就做了一些研究就是目前跟經濟安全有關的部門當然最重要的當然是經濟部這是沒問題有產發署但其實經濟部最近是有一部分擱到抒發部這是一個再來國科會會管到我們的核心關鍵的技術陸委會這剛好剛剛這個\n\n27\n00:09:59,723 --> 00:10:23,058\n這個邱委員長已經馬上發現了所以就上來了就是兩岸條例的這個投審嘛對不對然後外交部的國際多邊出口管制的體制的協作法務部就是剛剛部長提到的查緝的這個問題還有調查這個中資假借那種外資去竊取的問題教育部會有造冊的問題因為他要造冊我們才知道到底哪裡要管理所以就變成說他有點太過於跨部門了\n\n28\n00:10:23,778 --> 00:10:48,263\n所有的現在經濟安全我們要保護我們的國家關鍵基礎技術幾乎每一個部門都有這就跟之前我們在跟國防部在詢問的時候說這個解放軍的學校如果念過解放軍學校的人來到台灣我們應該要怎麼辦後來國防部處理完之後發現沒有教育部也要處理因為這些人呢到底他們的學歷認證我們台灣應該怎麼看待所以會變成每一個層面都會牽涉到那一個部分的國家安全\n\n29\n00:10:48,843 --> 00:11:16,321\n那經濟安全現在我覺得也面臨這樣的一個問題所以不知道有沒有可能就是我知道用政委直接來主責這件事情當然有可能又是國家預算上的一個問題啦但是有沒有可能不管是用一個辦公室或者用政委或者直接是院長去主責這整個經濟安全的法制那我們就可以把整個法制建構起來裡面就可以處理到剛剛提到的人流還有金流還有剛剛資訊流還有這一個技術的問題\n\n30\n00:11:19,209 --> 00:11:45,643\n要看院長或部長有沒有想要補充這一塊報告委員我們在我們的這個智庫裡面有專責的智庫在研究這一個問題有之前像國科會的D-SAT什麼也做了很多但有時候我是怕說什麼就是比如說他們叫不動其他的部會因為他牽扯太廣了有時候這一個部會做了但是另外一個部會不知道這件事情的嚴重性那就會形成一個漏洞所以如果能夠有更高的一個協調機制的話其實對這整體的建構會比較好\n\n31\n00:11:48,624 --> 00:12:03,337\n那我知道這個其實是一個大規劃所以不一定現在就必須要給一個答案委員包括兩個現狀現狀就是在部會裡面他們都有內部的會議他們會就他們的目的世界主管去做嚴格的考核那麼\n\n32\n00:12:04,028 --> 00:12:18,718\n由政務委員組成的政務會議每個禮拜都會召開都會在裡面有重要的必須拿來大家互相協力完成的政務會議是一個很好的平台我會加強委員所說的這個部分加強\n\n33\n00:12:20,243 --> 00:12:46,140\n經濟、資通、安全上面的考量謝謝那因為時間的關係我剛剛講的都是關鍵基礎技術我現在想講一下關鍵基礎設施那最近因為治安案件頻傳就是常常被攻擊裡面當然就是最近發生的這個馬街醫院還有張機有沒有就是他們的資料外洩被駭客攻擊我想這個大家應該都很熟悉了我就不多說那因為畢竟醫院也算是關鍵基礎設施的一環所以至少我們的速發部是能夠去幫忙的\n\n34\n00:12:46,560 --> 00:13:14,206\n就是說他要怎麼去建置這個資安啊要怎麼去防止未來的攻擊啊但現在我有一點比較擔心的是這一個就是院長應該知道最近我們立法院通過一個叫做公益階幣者保護法應該知道這部法律吧那這部法律呢還沒有實行但這部法律裡面很特別他就說你今天要階幣的時候呢你可以跟民意代表階幣你可以去跟媒體業者階幣你可以跟法人登記的公益團體階幣\n\n35\n00:13:15,956 --> 00:13:27,578\n法人登記的公益團體說真的這邊指的當然就是公益階壁者這個保護協會嘛這個保護協會的理事過去曾經擔任過理事長的就是這個我照片放大這一位這個大家可以看他一下俊俏的臉龐\n\n36\n00:13:29,053 --> 00:13:45,454\n所以呢在這件事情上面呢對我來講呢簡單來說你可以帶你的資料到他們的網站然後你可以去爆料你可以去吹哨但我去看他的網站之後我就發現他的網頁的這個原始碼裡面埋了一個這一個那我覺得這個部長看可能就會很熟悉了啦\n\n37\n00:13:46,255 --> 00:14:05,258\n他連到一個外面的一個網站那個就值得懷疑這是個JavaScript所以這個Script可以做很多事情所以應該要去再檢測一下是有點值得去就是我會擔心看到這個Script如果你這個講那個Script\n\n38\n00:14:05,838 --> 00:14:18,965\n對這個部長因為一看就知道嘛他一看就知道他外連到其他的一個網站但為什麼他外連到其他的網站他其實是被埋了惡意城市那我們就特別去查說就是去導到那一個網站之後那個惡意城市到底是什麼\n\n39\n00:14:19,873 --> 00:14:43,503\n結果他竟然是可以去辨識數位足跡去鎖定你的身份比如說今天是法務部長說要來吹哨有沒有然後他根據他的數位足跡發現這個是我平常鎖定的那一個人再跳出病毒讓他去下載去入侵他的電腦然後去取得他的權限然後用病毒感染的方式去竊取這些資料而這一個手法完全符合中國apt24的手法\n\n40\n00:14:44,332 --> 00:14:58,124\n那這個對我來說是個問題嘛你等於政府立法建了一個網站然後這個指定了一個網站這個網站可以中國在上面收集資訊那你不是通過一個法然後再幫助中國來收集全台灣人民的個資嗎\n\n41\n00:14:59,229 --> 00:15:18,609\n那這個不是只有在這個個案喔比如說好今天消基會他也是民間團體但是他也是我們政府認可的團體他也會有個資電商也會有個資所以法定指定的或者擁有大量個資的電商他完全就會是一個我們個資的漏洞但是我們速發部卻沒有辦法直接去管\n\n42\n00:15:19,687 --> 00:15:41,946\n所以這一個部分不知道部長目前來講我們針對這一個方面我有跟其實蘇巴部討論過幾次但要不要你們有一個更全面的方法針對這種事情我們未來到底該怎麼辦這個就想講說第一個當然我們現在有個治安法我們希望能夠趕快通過通過治安法之後當然就是說我們納管主要納管CI跟一些我們的政府還有地方政府\n\n43\n00:15:43,438 --> 00:15:51,284\n民間的這些東西我想下一步可能就是我們在三法先通過這一版以後我們下一個修法可能還要對民間的這個\n\n44\n00:15:55,785 --> 00:15:55,805\n好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11839\t12500\t謝謝主席,有請院長,謝謝麻煩再請昨天院長備詢\n49167\t72354\t謝謝 沈委員好委員長好那這個因為上個禮拜這個賴總統有這一個記者會有一個關於我們現在民主受到很多的滲透中國的攻擊等等之類的這個國家安全現在要守衛啦所以我今天用這個民主保衛戰來作為一個名稱那但是呢因為裡面有很多的法案是過去一年我們已經推出的\n72814\t90897\t所以我特別針對裡面的大概是第15還第16點關於這個資訊安全關於認知作戰這一塊我認為還是有必要 理與理性所以我今天大概是問這邊有列三個一個是跟經濟安全有關大概就是像日本2019年一直到現在一直在做那個經濟安全保障\n91477\t116044\t那另外一塊是跟資通安全有關有可能會等一下要請到這個書法部的部長那公民的權利我看今天時間可能會來不及但是我剛剛有先跟這個市方部長先聊過所以我可能會著重在前面這兩塊那第一個呢我從這個經濟安全保障開始就是川普2.0以來就是台美關係其實在這邊呢有很多字但是重點就是那紅色的就是一直在講晶片\n116664\t138861\t那我看今天還有到上個禮拜就是很多委員的質詢就一直也都是在針對晶片台積電現在去美國啊會不會被吃掉啊什麼等等之類的那我覺得有點搔不到癢處啦我們現在的整個半導體的聚落呢在台灣其實算是非常的重要我們本身就是一個半導體的熱點那我之前呢就在辦公室的時候我們就請\n140029\t166904\t辦公室來做一個很簡單的這種商業很常識的這個SWAT的分析就是說我們現在半導體目前我們的機會跟我們的威脅到底是什麼那其實我們的機會一直以來都是因為美國對於先進這個晶片製造它有某種程度的不安那它也是想要把一些製程把它放在美國那這也是我們的機會因為有這個非紅供應鏈有民主供應鏈嘛但是國民黨很喜歡把這個放在T就是Threads\n167384\t182114\t他認為說沒有這就是美國要吃掉我們的證據那用這樣來散播一些以美論不過我認為他們有一個點是我們真的必須要注意的就是其實美國在擔心晶片這件事情他最擔心的地方其實還是技術的外流\n182841\t206742\t也就是說呢我們如果作為一個節點我們被中國滲透的那麼嚴重結果我們的技術竟然被中國拿去我認為這才是美國最擔心的地方所以整件事情我們本來好好的從日本到德國到美國這樣的一個佈局台積電遍佈全球它本來是一個好的產業佈局但裡面就會有一個漏洞就是如果今天台灣成為白手套要怎麼辦\n207748\t231639\t所以在這邊,這都是這陣子的新聞,這個3月4號才一個禮拜前的新聞而已,新加坡就破獲這個中國幫買輝達晶片的白手套,我記得是逮捕了三個人左右。然後這個華爾街日報在3月2號的時候也有特別點名到台灣,就說我們是不是成為一個購買輝達NVIDIA伺服器的白手套。\n232299\t257501\t所以這件事情我在 這個不是我現在要問的問題但你可以看到這是我之前的PowerPoint這是2024年10月30的時候那時候我有問部長 有問這個經濟部我那時候也有問教育部就是關於說 這一些交流還有一些公司成為白手套之後我們到底有沒有把他們當作我們管制上的一個清單那時候有算人科技嘛 比特大陸嘛 它背後有華為嘛\n258482\t287662\t那時候我們有跟這一個經濟部的專員其實已經討論過他很忌妒他要做更新啊等等之類的那這一個只是可是我認為這可能只是最低階的因為你今天把它列到這一個產品的名單上面或者你把它放在這個出口的管制上面這可能是遠遠不夠因為這個並沒有解決假設他們的人來這邊做滲透他們把技術偷走要怎麼辦所以我今年有提案就是說去年有提案國安法第三條跟這個兩岸條例第九條\n288422\t316249\t都是針對這個技術竊取來特別做相關的規範所以在這邊想要問就是院長因為我們現在去年大概提了十部法律的修法很多都跟經濟安全有關但我們現在等待的是院版就是說有些法案一直被藍白卡住那個沒話講但有些我們是在等待院版的出現所以針對第一個就是技術外流這件事情相關法規範的盤點有沒有可能在這一個會期來進行\n319217\t335128\t現在委員提到的重要的內容相關的法案行政院代表政府應該在必要的時候尤其是現在這個關鍵的時刻拿出政府的態度弄一個符合現在這個安全上所需要的版本\n336128\t352494\t絕對是政府應該做的事情但是我們是希望說 朝野內部 朝野黨團之間的意見能夠再趨於一致那這 行政院員在這個時候跟大家討論以後形成一個共同的版本也可以這一點就要拜託院長 然後部長是不是要補充什麼我們已經要來徵定這個經濟間的罪來修正兩岸條例\n357056\t373706\t那院長也有責成我們法務部調查局跟國安局入委會勞動部以及經濟部成立這個跨部會工作小組強化機關之間的橫向聯繫加強查緝相關不法活動因為我們認為如果不\n374560\t389832\t很重乏的對經濟安全來講的話確實如委員所指正的很容易把這些訊息給流露出去那一定要透過法務部嚴懲那才會產生效益\n393243\t408418\t謝謝部長我覺得這邊講到一個重點就是說假設我們今天要做管制但是我們一定要有查緝的量能其實如果沒有查緝的量能或者沒有回報的機制等於說你把它擺在那邊這個經濟安保也不容易建立所以這也是我認為法務部應該要扮演蠻重要的一個角色\n409139\t434452\t那在這邊呢我剛好在這一個二月的時候有去聽美國一場聽證會他也在講這件事情他裡面就有做了幾個建議第一個加強出口管制跟投資的限制然後智慧的貿易限制但這一個呢其實對我們台灣來講還要再做一個轉換因為晶片本身是放在技術類它不是終端的產品嘛所以單純做這樣的一個貿易限制可能還不夠完整第二個他提到\n435132\t456446\t國家級的技術要有一個風險評估的單位這個日本現在是有一個專責單位從19年做到現在就專門在做經濟安保了第三個就是要追蹤中國的技術發展我認為台灣不管是經濟部還是事務發部應該有這個能力做這一個美方那時候在聽證會的這三個建議那這個才是我們真的我們投資美國\n457106\t475959\t我們又建立了非紅的產業鏈然後又符合相關的規範不是做最基本的什麼資安CMMC的規範那麼簡單而已而是這整體的大方向跟美國一起來做協作不過這邊我就有點擔心就是因為剛剛講的因為技術類的畢竟它是晶片是屬於技術類我們目前貿易法13條跟兩岸條例的35條\n478180\t494216\t大部分都是可以看到這個文字高科技貨品的出口的實體管理名單比如說輸往俄羅斯白俄羅斯高科技的貨品的清單就是國家核心的關鍵技術很難直接扣在這個貿易法跟兩岸條例\n494756\t512823\t所以這是這一個會期我覺得我們蠻重要的工作既然總統已經在談話裡面說到說我們今天針對中國的滲透跟威脅要越來越多的願板要出現嘛那我覺得除了剛剛因為剛剛講的是人我們剛剛提到的兩岸條例的那一個修正跟國安法的修正是針對人那個人留我們來做修正\n513443\t523808\t這一個部分是貿易法跟兩岸條例是針對這一些看起來是貨品物品但其實我們是要針對技術的方面把它涵蓋進去做修正我覺得這兩個可能都要並行\n525595\t551538\t所以總統那些材質裡面就是人流物流 音流 技術要有序的調整我們也知道我們現在已經要求了內控外控都要做到什麼東西該進來不該進來尤其重要我們重要的零組件或是晶片要出去去到哪裡如果違法 違規違法的人我們現在的法令我感覺惡阻力不夠 情度不高所以效果不佳我們會從這個方向來著手\n553306\t577523\t謝謝院長 那我就希望至少我們從人流物流的這兩個方向我們都來做立法看這一個會期至少能夠討論出一個大方向那另外一個是這個我不知道院長會怎麼想就是說就像我剛剛一直提到的以日本為例它就是有一個主責的一個單位它是直接就是在他們的那一個部長部長室不是部長室就他們的首長室他管的是全部橫跨每一個部門的經濟安全\n578163\t594699\t因為我這一方面我就做了一些研究就是目前跟經濟安全有關的部門當然最重要的當然是經濟部這是沒問題有產發署但其實經濟部最近是有一部分擱到抒發部這是一個再來國科會會管到我們的核心關鍵的技術陸委會這剛好剛剛這個\n599723\t623058\t這個邱委員長已經馬上發現了所以就上來了就是兩岸條例的這個投審嘛 對不對然後外交部的國際多邊出口管制的體制的協作法務部就是剛剛部長提到的查緝的這個問題還有調查這個中資假借那種外資去竊取的問題教育部會有造冊的問題因為他要造冊我們才知道到底哪裡要管理所以就變成說他有點太過於跨部門了\n623778\t648263\t所有的現在經濟安全我們要保護我們的國家關鍵基礎技術幾乎每一個部門都有這就跟之前我們在跟國防部在詢問的時候說這個解放軍的學校如果念過解放軍學校的人來到台灣我們應該要怎麼辦後來國防部處理完之後發現沒有教育部也要處理因為這些人呢到底他們的學歷認證我們台灣應該怎麼看待所以會變成每一個層面都會牽涉到那一個部分的國家安全\n648843\t676321\t那經濟安全現在我覺得也面臨這樣的一個問題所以不知道有沒有可能就是我知道用政委直接來主責這件事情當然有可能又是國家預算上的一個問題啦但是有沒有可能不管是用一個辦公室或者用政委或者直接是院長去主責這整個經濟安全的法制那我們就可以把整個法制建構起來裡面就可以處理到剛剛提到的人流還有金流還有剛剛資訊流還有這一個技術的問題\n679209\t705643\t要看院長或部長有沒有想要補充這一塊報告委員我們在我們的這個智庫裡面有專責的智庫在研究這一個問題有之前像國科會的D-SAT什麼也做了很多但有時候我是怕說什麼就是比如說他們叫不動其他的部會因為他牽扯太廣了有時候這一個部會做了但是另外一個部會不知道這件事情的嚴重性那就會形成一個漏洞所以如果能夠有更高的一個協調機制的話其實對這整體的建構會比較好\n708624\t723337\t那我知道這個其實是一個大規劃所以不一定現在就必須要給一個答案委員包括兩個現狀現狀就是在部會裡面他們都有內部的會議他們會就他們的目的世界主管去做嚴格的考核那麼\n724028\t738718\t由政務委員組成的政務會議每個禮拜都會召開都會在裡面有重要的必須拿來大家互相協力完成的政務會議是一個很好的平台我會加強委員所說的這個部分加強\n740243\t766140\t經濟、資通、安全上面的考量謝謝那因為時間的關係我剛剛講的都是關鍵基礎技術我現在想講一下關鍵基礎設施那最近因為治安案件頻傳就是常常被攻擊裡面當然就是最近發生的這個馬街醫院還有張機有沒有就是他們的資料外洩被駭客攻擊我想這個大家應該都很熟悉了我就不多說那因為畢竟醫院也算是關鍵基礎設施的一環所以至少我們的速發部是能夠去幫忙的\n766560\t794206\t就是說他要怎麼去建置這個資安啊要怎麼去防止未來的攻擊啊但現在我有一點比較擔心的是這一個就是院長應該知道最近我們立法院通過一個叫做公益階幣者保護法應該知道這部法律吧那這部法律呢還沒有實行但這部法律裡面很特別他就說你今天要階幣的時候呢你可以跟民意代表階幣你可以去跟媒體業者階幣你可以跟法人登記的公益團體階幣\n795956\t807578\t法人登記的公益團體說真的這邊指的當然就是公益階壁者這個保護協會嘛這個保護協會的理事過去曾經擔任過理事長的就是這個我照片放大這一位這個大家可以看他一下俊俏的臉龐\n809053\t825454\t所以呢在這件事情上面呢對我來講呢簡單來說你可以帶你的資料到他們的網站然後你可以去爆料你可以去吹哨但我去看他的網站之後我就發現他的網頁的這個原始碼裡面埋了一個這一個那我覺得這個部長看可能就會很熟悉了啦\n826255\t845258\t他連到一個外面的一個網站那個就值得懷疑這是個Java Script所以這個Script可以做很多事情所以應該要去再檢測一下是有點值得去就是我會擔心看到這個Script如果你這個講那個Script\n845838\t858965\t對 這個部長因為一看就知道嘛他一看就知道他外連到其他的一個網站但為什麼他外連到其他的網站他其實是被埋了惡意城市那我們就特別去查說就是去導到那一個網站之後那個惡意城市到底是什麼\n859873\t883503\t結果他竟然是可以去辨識數位足跡去鎖定你的身份比如說今天是法務部長說要來吹哨有沒有然後他根據他的數位足跡發現這個是我平常鎖定的那一個人再跳出病毒讓他去下載去入侵他的電腦然後去取得他的權限然後用病毒感染的方式去竊取這些資料而這一個手法完全符合中國apt24的手法\n884332\t898124\t那這個對我來說是個問題嘛你等於政府立法建了一個網站然後這個指定了一個網站這個網站可以中國在上面收集資訊那你不是通過一個法然後再幫助中國來收集全台灣人民的個資嗎\n899229\t918609\t那這個不是只有在這個個案喔比如說好今天消基會他也是民間團體但是他也是我們政府認可的團體他也會有個資電商也會有個資所以法定指定的或者擁有大量個資的電商他完全就會是一個我們個資的漏洞但是我們速發部卻沒有辦法直接去管\n919687\t941946\t所以這一個部分不知道部長目前來講我們針對這一個方面我有跟其實蘇巴部討論過幾次但要不要你們有一個更全面的方法針對這種事情我們未來到底該怎麼辦這個就想講說第一個當然我們現在有個治安法我們希望能夠趕快通過通過治安法之後當然就是說我們納管 主要納管CI跟一些我們的政府還有地方政府\n943438\t951284\t民間的這些東西我想下一步可能就是我們在三法先通過這一版以後我們下一個修法可能還要對民間的這個\n955785\t955805\t好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席,有請院長,謝謝麻煩再請昨天院長備詢\n謝謝 沈委員好委員長好那這個因為上個禮拜這個賴總統有這一個記者會有一個關於我們現在民主受到很多的滲透中國的攻擊等等之類的這個國家安全現在要守衛啦所以我今天用這個民主保衛戰來作為一個名稱那但是呢因為裡面有很多的法案是過去一年我們已經推出的\n所以我特別針對裡面的大概是第15還第16點關於這個資訊安全關於認知作戰這一塊我認為還是有必要 理與理性所以我今天大概是問這邊有列三個一個是跟經濟安全有關大概就是像日本2019年一直到現在一直在做那個經濟安全保障\n那另外一塊是跟資通安全有關有可能會等一下要請到這個書法部的部長那公民的權利我看今天時間可能會來不及但是我剛剛有先跟這個市方部長先聊過所以我可能會著重在前面這兩塊那第一個呢我從這個經濟安全保障開始就是川普2.0以來就是台美關係其實在這邊呢有很多字但是重點就是那紅色的就是一直在講晶片\n那我看今天還有到上個禮拜就是很多委員的質詢就一直也都是在針對晶片台積電現在去美國啊會不會被吃掉啊什麼等等之類的那我覺得有點搔不到癢處啦我們現在的整個半導體的聚落呢在台灣其實算是非常的重要我們本身就是一個半導體的熱點那我之前呢就在辦公室的時候我們就請\n辦公室來做一個很簡單的這種商業很常識的這個SWAT的分析就是說我們現在半導體目前我們的機會跟我們的威脅到底是什麼那其實我們的機會一直以來都是因為美國對於先進這個晶片製造它有某種程度的不安那它也是想要把一些製程把它放在美國那這也是我們的機會因為有這個非紅供應鏈有民主供應鏈嘛但是國民黨很喜歡把這個放在T就是Threads\n他認為說沒有這就是美國要吃掉我們的證據那用這樣來散播一些以美論不過我認為他們有一個點是我們真的必須要注意的就是其實美國在擔心晶片這件事情他最擔心的地方其實還是技術的外流\n也就是說呢我們如果作為一個節點我們被中國滲透的那麼嚴重結果我們的技術竟然被中國拿去我認為這才是美國最擔心的地方所以整件事情我們本來好好的從日本到德國到美國這樣的一個佈局台積電遍佈全球它本來是一個好的產業佈局但裡面就會有一個漏洞就是如果今天台灣成為白手套要怎麼辦\n所以在這邊,這都是這陣子的新聞,這個3月4號才一個禮拜前的新聞而已,新加坡就破獲這個中國幫買輝達晶片的白手套,我記得是逮捕了三個人左右。然後這個華爾街日報在3月2號的時候也有特別點名到台灣,就說我們是不是成為一個購買輝達NVIDIA伺服器的白手套。\n所以這件事情我在 這個不是我現在要問的問題但你可以看到這是我之前的PowerPoint這是2024年10月30的時候那時候我有問部長 有問這個經濟部我那時候也有問教育部就是關於說 這一些交流還有一些公司成為白手套之後我們到底有沒有把他們當作我們管制上的一個清單那時候有算人科技嘛 比特大陸嘛 它背後有華為嘛\n那時候我們有跟這一個經濟部的專員其實已經討論過他很忌妒他要做更新啊等等之類的那這一個只是可是我認為這可能只是最低階的因為你今天把它列到這一個產品的名單上面或者你把它放在這個出口的管制上面這可能是遠遠不夠因為這個並沒有解決假設他們的人來這邊做滲透他們把技術偷走要怎麼辦所以我今年有提案就是說去年有提案國安法第三條跟這個兩岸條例第九條\n都是針對這個技術竊取來特別做相關的規範所以在這邊想要問就是院長因為我們現在去年大概提了十部法律的修法很多都跟經濟安全有關但我們現在等待的是院版就是說有些法案一直被藍白卡住那個沒話講但有些我們是在等待院版的出現所以針對第一個就是技術外流這件事情相關法規範的盤點有沒有可能在這一個會期來進行\n現在委員提到的重要的內容相關的法案行政院代表政府應該在必要的時候尤其是現在這個關鍵的時刻拿出政府的態度弄一個符合現在這個安全上所需要的版本\n絕對是政府應該做的事情但是我們是希望說 朝野內部 朝野黨團之間的意見能夠再趨於一致那這 行政院員在這個時候跟大家討論以後形成一個共同的版本也可以這一點就要拜託院長 然後部長是不是要補充什麼我們已經要來徵定這個經濟間的罪來修正兩岸條例\n那院長也有責成我們法務部調查局跟國安局入委會勞動部以及經濟部成立這個跨部會工作小組強化機關之間的橫向聯繫加強查緝相關不法活動因為我們認為如果不\n很重乏的對經濟安全來講的話確實如委員所指正的很容易把這些訊息給流露出去那一定要透過法務部嚴懲那才會產生效益\n謝謝部長我覺得這邊講到一個重點就是說假設我們今天要做管制但是我們一定要有查緝的量能其實如果沒有查緝的量能或者沒有回報的機制等於說你把它擺在那邊這個經濟安保也不容易建立所以這也是我認為法務部應該要扮演蠻重要的一個角色\n那在這邊呢我剛好在這一個二月的時候有去聽美國一場聽證會他也在講這件事情他裡面就有做了幾個建議第一個加強出口管制跟投資的限制然後智慧的貿易限制但這一個呢其實對我們台灣來講還要再做一個轉換因為晶片本身是放在技術類它不是終端的產品嘛所以單純做這樣的一個貿易限制可能還不夠完整第二個他提到\n國家級的技術要有一個風險評估的單位這個日本現在是有一個專責單位從19年做到現在就專門在做經濟安保了第三個就是要追蹤中國的技術發展我認為台灣不管是經濟部還是事務發部應該有這個能力做這一個美方那時候在聽證會的這三個建議那這個才是我們真的我們投資美國\n我們又建立了非紅的產業鏈然後又符合相關的規範不是做最基本的什麼資安CMMC的規範那麼簡單而已而是這整體的大方向跟美國一起來做協作不過這邊我就有點擔心就是因為剛剛講的因為技術類的畢竟它是晶片是屬於技術類我們目前貿易法13條跟兩岸條例的35條\n大部分都是可以看到這個文字高科技貨品的出口的實體管理名單比如說輸往俄羅斯白俄羅斯高科技的貨品的清單就是國家核心的關鍵技術很難直接扣在這個貿易法跟兩岸條例\n所以這是這一個會期我覺得我們蠻重要的工作既然總統已經在談話裡面說到說我們今天針對中國的滲透跟威脅要越來越多的願板要出現嘛那我覺得除了剛剛因為剛剛講的是人我們剛剛提到的兩岸條例的那一個修正跟國安法的修正是針對人那個人留我們來做修正\n這一個部分是貿易法跟兩岸條例是針對這一些看起來是貨品物品但其實我們是要針對技術的方面把它涵蓋進去做修正我覺得這兩個可能都要並行\n所以總統那些材質裡面就是人流物流 音流 技術要有序的調整我們也知道我們現在已經要求了內控外控都要做到什麼東西該進來不該進來尤其重要我們重要的零組件或是晶片要出去去到哪裡如果違法 違規違法的人我們現在的法令我感覺惡阻力不夠 情度不高所以效果不佳我們會從這個方向來著手\n謝謝院長 那我就希望至少我們從人流物流的這兩個方向我們都來做立法看這一個會期至少能夠討論出一個大方向那另外一個是這個我不知道院長會怎麼想就是說就像我剛剛一直提到的以日本為例它就是有一個主責的一個單位它是直接就是在他們的那一個部長部長室不是部長室就他們的首長室他管的是全部橫跨每一個部門的經濟安全\n因為我這一方面我就做了一些研究就是目前跟經濟安全有關的部門當然最重要的當然是經濟部這是沒問題有產發署但其實經濟部最近是有一部分擱到抒發部這是一個再來國科會會管到我們的核心關鍵的技術陸委會這剛好剛剛這個\n這個邱委員長已經馬上發現了所以就上來了就是兩岸條例的這個投審嘛 對不對然後外交部的國際多邊出口管制的體制的協作法務部就是剛剛部長提到的查緝的這個問題還有調查這個中資假借那種外資去竊取的問題教育部會有造冊的問題因為他要造冊我們才知道到底哪裡要管理所以就變成說他有點太過於跨部門了\n所有的現在經濟安全我們要保護我們的國家關鍵基礎技術幾乎每一個部門都有這就跟之前我們在跟國防部在詢問的時候說這個解放軍的學校如果念過解放軍學校的人來到台灣我們應該要怎麼辦後來國防部處理完之後發現沒有教育部也要處理因為這些人呢到底他們的學歷認證我們台灣應該怎麼看待所以會變成每一個層面都會牽涉到那一個部分的國家安全\n那經濟安全現在我覺得也面臨這樣的一個問題所以不知道有沒有可能就是我知道用政委直接來主責這件事情當然有可能又是國家預算上的一個問題啦但是有沒有可能不管是用一個辦公室或者用政委或者直接是院長去主責這整個經濟安全的法制那我們就可以把整個法制建構起來裡面就可以處理到剛剛提到的人流還有金流還有剛剛資訊流還有這一個技術的問題\n要看院長或部長有沒有想要補充這一塊報告委員我們在我們的這個智庫裡面有專責的智庫在研究這一個問題有之前像國科會的D-SAT什麼也做了很多但有時候我是怕說什麼就是比如說他們叫不動其他的部會因為他牽扯太廣了有時候這一個部會做了但是另外一個部會不知道這件事情的嚴重性那就會形成一個漏洞所以如果能夠有更高的一個協調機制的話其實對這整體的建構會比較好\n那我知道這個其實是一個大規劃所以不一定現在就必須要給一個答案委員包括兩個現狀現狀就是在部會裡面他們都有內部的會議他們會就他們的目的世界主管去做嚴格的考核那麼\n由政務委員組成的政務會議每個禮拜都會召開都會在裡面有重要的必須拿來大家互相協力完成的政務會議是一個很好的平台我會加強委員所說的這個部分加強\n經濟、資通、安全上面的考量謝謝那因為時間的關係我剛剛講的都是關鍵基礎技術我現在想講一下關鍵基礎設施那最近因為治安案件頻傳就是常常被攻擊裡面當然就是最近發生的這個馬街醫院還有張機有沒有就是他們的資料外洩被駭客攻擊我想這個大家應該都很熟悉了我就不多說那因為畢竟醫院也算是關鍵基礎設施的一環所以至少我們的速發部是能夠去幫忙的\n就是說他要怎麼去建置這個資安啊要怎麼去防止未來的攻擊啊但現在我有一點比較擔心的是這一個就是院長應該知道最近我們立法院通過一個叫做公益階幣者保護法應該知道這部法律吧那這部法律呢還沒有實行但這部法律裡面很特別他就說你今天要階幣的時候呢你可以跟民意代表階幣你可以去跟媒體業者階幣你可以跟法人登記的公益團體階幣\n法人登記的公益團體說真的這邊指的當然就是公益階壁者這個保護協會嘛這個保護協會的理事過去曾經擔任過理事長的就是這個我照片放大這一位這個大家可以看他一下俊俏的臉龐\n所以呢在這件事情上面呢對我來講呢簡單來說你可以帶你的資料到他們的網站然後你可以去爆料你可以去吹哨但我去看他的網站之後我就發現他的網頁的這個原始碼裡面埋了一個這一個那我覺得這個部長看可能就會很熟悉了啦\n他連到一個外面的一個網站那個就值得懷疑這是個Java Script所以這個Script可以做很多事情所以應該要去再檢測一下是有點值得去就是我會擔心看到這個Script如果你這個講那個Script\n對 這個部長因為一看就知道嘛他一看就知道他外連到其他的一個網站但為什麼他外連到其他的網站他其實是被埋了惡意城市那我們就特別去查說就是去導到那一個網站之後那個惡意城市到底是什麼\n結果他竟然是可以去辨識數位足跡去鎖定你的身份比如說今天是法務部長說要來吹哨有沒有然後他根據他的數位足跡發現這個是我平常鎖定的那一個人再跳出病毒讓他去下載去入侵他的電腦然後去取得他的權限然後用病毒感染的方式去竊取這些資料而這一個手法完全符合中國apt24的手法\n那這個對我來說是個問題嘛你等於政府立法建了一個網站然後這個指定了一個網站這個網站可以中國在上面收集資訊那你不是通過一個法然後再幫助中國來收集全台灣人民的個資嗎\n那這個不是只有在這個個案喔比如說好今天消基會他也是民間團體但是他也是我們政府認可的團體他也會有個資電商也會有個資所以法定指定的或者擁有大量個資的電商他完全就會是一個我們個資的漏洞但是我們速發部卻沒有辦法直接去管\n所以這一個部分不知道部長目前來講我們針對這一個方面我有跟其實蘇巴部討論過幾次但要不要你們有一個更全面的方法針對這種事情我們未來到底該怎麼辦這個就想講說第一個當然我們現在有個治安法我們希望能夠趕快通過通過治安法之後當然就是說我們納管 主要納管CI跟一些我們的政府還有地方政府\n民間的這些東西我想下一步可能就是我們在三法先通過這一版以後我們下一個修法可能還要對民間的這個\n好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.839 --> 00:12.500\n謝謝主席,有請院長,謝謝麻煩再請昨天院長備詢\n\n00:49.167 --> 01:12.354\n謝謝沈委員好委員長好那這個因為上個禮拜這個賴總統有這一個記者會有一個關於我們現在民主受到很多的滲透中國的攻擊等等之類的這個國家安全現在要守衛啦所以我今天用這個民主保衛戰來作為一個名稱那但是呢因為裡面有很多的法案是過去一年我們已經推出的\n\n01:12.814 --> 01:30.897\n所以我特別針對裡面的大概是第15還第16點關於這個資訊安全關於認知作戰這一塊我認為還是有必要理與理性所以我今天大概是問這邊有列三個一個是跟經濟安全有關大概就是像日本2019年一直到現在一直在做那個經濟安全保障\n\n01:31.477 --> 01:56.044\n那另外一塊是跟資通安全有關有可能會等一下要請到這個書法部的部長那公民的權利我看今天時間可能會來不及但是我剛剛有先跟這個市方部長先聊過所以我可能會著重在前面這兩塊那第一個呢我從這個經濟安全保障開始就是川普2.0以來就是台美關係其實在這邊呢有很多字但是重點就是那紅色的就是一直在講晶片\n\n01:56.664 --> 02:18.861\n那我看今天還有到上個禮拜就是很多委員的質詢就一直也都是在針對晶片台積電現在去美國啊會不會被吃掉啊什麼等等之類的那我覺得有點搔不到癢處啦我們現在的整個半導體的聚落呢在台灣其實算是非常的重要我們本身就是一個半導體的熱點那我之前呢就在辦公室的時候我們就請\n\n02:20.029 --> 02:46.904\n辦公室來做一個很簡單的這種商業很常識的這個SWAT的分析就是說我們現在半導體目前我們的機會跟我們的威脅到底是什麼那其實我們的機會一直以來都是因為美國對於先進這個晶片製造它有某種程度的不安那它也是想要把一些製程把它放在美國那這也是我們的機會因為有這個非紅供應鏈有民主供應鏈嘛但是國民黨很喜歡把這個放在T就是Threads\n\n02:47.384 --> 03:02.114\n他認為說沒有這就是美國要吃掉我們的證據那用這樣來散播一些以美論不過我認為他們有一個點是我們真的必須要注意的就是其實美國在擔心晶片這件事情他最擔心的地方其實還是技術的外流\n\n03:02.841 --> 03:26.742\n也就是說呢我們如果作為一個節點我們被中國滲透的那麼嚴重結果我們的技術竟然被中國拿去我認為這才是美國最擔心的地方所以整件事情我們本來好好的從日本到德國到美國這樣的一個佈局台積電遍佈全球它本來是一個好的產業佈局但裡面就會有一個漏洞就是如果今天台灣成為白手套要怎麼辦\n\n03:27.748 --> 03:51.639\n所以在這邊,這都是這陣子的新聞,這個3月4號才一個禮拜前的新聞而已,新加坡就破獲這個中國幫買輝達晶片的白手套,我記得是逮捕了三個人左右。然後這個華爾街日報在3月2號的時候也有特別點名到台灣,就說我們是不是成為一個購買輝達NVIDIA伺服器的白手套。\n\n03:52.299 --> 04:17.501\n所以這件事情我在這個不是我現在要問的問題但你可以看到這是我之前的PowerPoint這是2024年10月30的時候那時候我有問部長有問這個經濟部我那時候也有問教育部就是關於說這一些交流還有一些公司成為白手套之後我們到底有沒有把他們當作我們管制上的一個清單那時候有算人科技嘛比特大陸嘛它背後有華為嘛\n\n04:18.482 --> 04:47.662\n那時候我們有跟這一個經濟部的專員其實已經討論過他很忌妒他要做更新啊等等之類的那這一個只是可是我認為這可能只是最低階的因為你今天把它列到這一個產品的名單上面或者你把它放在這個出口的管制上面這可能是遠遠不夠因為這個並沒有解決假設他們的人來這邊做滲透他們把技術偷走要怎麼辦所以我今年有提案就是說去年有提案國安法第三條跟這個兩岸條例第九條\n\n04:48.422 --> 05:16.249\n都是針對這個技術竊取來特別做相關的規範所以在這邊想要問就是院長因為我們現在去年大概提了十部法律的修法很多都跟經濟安全有關但我們現在等待的是院版就是說有些法案一直被藍白卡住那個沒話講但有些我們是在等待院版的出現所以針對第一個就是技術外流這件事情相關法規範的盤點有沒有可能在這一個會期來進行\n\n05:19.217 --> 05:35.128\n現在委員提到的重要的內容相關的法案行政院代表政府應該在必要的時候尤其是現在這個關鍵的時刻拿出政府的態度弄一個符合現在這個安全上所需要的版本\n\n05:36.128 --> 05:52.494\n絕對是政府應該做的事情但是我們是希望說朝野內部朝野黨團之間的意見能夠再趨於一致那這行政院員在這個時候跟大家討論以後形成一個共同的版本也可以這一點就要拜託院長然後部長是不是要補充什麼我們已經要來徵定這個經濟間的罪來修正兩岸條例\n\n05:57.056 --> 06:13.706\n那院長也有責成我們法務部調查局跟國安局入委會勞動部以及經濟部成立這個跨部會工作小組強化機關之間的橫向聯繫加強查緝相關不法活動因為我們認為如果不\n\n06:14.560 --> 06:29.832\n很重乏的對經濟安全來講的話確實如委員所指正的很容易把這些訊息給流露出去那一定要透過法務部嚴懲那才會產生效益\n\n06:33.243 --> 06:48.418\n謝謝部長我覺得這邊講到一個重點就是說假設我們今天要做管制但是我們一定要有查緝的量能其實如果沒有查緝的量能或者沒有回報的機制等於說你把它擺在那邊這個經濟安保也不容易建立所以這也是我認為法務部應該要扮演蠻重要的一個角色\n\n06:49.139 --> 07:14.452\n那在這邊呢我剛好在這一個二月的時候有去聽美國一場聽證會他也在講這件事情他裡面就有做了幾個建議第一個加強出口管制跟投資的限制然後智慧的貿易限制但這一個呢其實對我們台灣來講還要再做一個轉換因為晶片本身是放在技術類它不是終端的產品嘛所以單純做這樣的一個貿易限制可能還不夠完整第二個他提到\n\n07:15.132 --> 07:36.446\n國家級的技術要有一個風險評估的單位這個日本現在是有一個專責單位從19年做到現在就專門在做經濟安保了第三個就是要追蹤中國的技術發展我認為台灣不管是經濟部還是事務發部應該有這個能力做這一個美方那時候在聽證會的這三個建議那這個才是我們真的我們投資美國\n\n07:37.106 --> 07:55.959\n我們又建立了非紅的產業鏈然後又符合相關的規範不是做最基本的什麼資安CMMC的規範那麼簡單而已而是這整體的大方向跟美國一起來做協作不過這邊我就有點擔心就是因為剛剛講的因為技術類的畢竟它是晶片是屬於技術類我們目前貿易法13條跟兩岸條例的35條\n\n07:58.180 --> 08:14.216\n大部分都是可以看到這個文字高科技貨品的出口的實體管理名單比如說輸往俄羅斯白俄羅斯高科技的貨品的清單就是國家核心的關鍵技術很難直接扣在這個貿易法跟兩岸條例\n\n08:14.756 --> 08:32.823\n所以這是這一個會期我覺得我們蠻重要的工作既然總統已經在談話裡面說到說我們今天針對中國的滲透跟威脅要越來越多的願板要出現嘛那我覺得除了剛剛因為剛剛講的是人我們剛剛提到的兩岸條例的那一個修正跟國安法的修正是針對人那個人留我們來做修正\n\n08:33.443 --> 08:43.808\n這一個部分是貿易法跟兩岸條例是針對這一些看起來是貨品物品但其實我們是要針對技術的方面把它涵蓋進去做修正我覺得這兩個可能都要並行\n\n08:45.595 --> 09:11.538\n所以總統那些材質裡面就是人流物流音流技術要有序的調整我們也知道我們現在已經要求了內控外控都要做到什麼東西該進來不該進來尤其重要我們重要的零組件或是晶片要出去去到哪裡如果違法違規違法的人我們現在的法令我感覺惡阻力不夠情度不高所以效果不佳我們會從這個方向來著手\n\n09:13.306 --> 09:37.523\n謝謝院長那我就希望至少我們從人流物流的這兩個方向我們都來做立法看這一個會期至少能夠討論出一個大方向那另外一個是這個我不知道院長會怎麼想就是說就像我剛剛一直提到的以日本為例它就是有一個主責的一個單位它是直接就是在他們的那一個部長部長室不是部長室就他們的首長室他管的是全部橫跨每一個部門的經濟安全\n\n09:38.163 --> 09:54.699\n因為我這一方面我就做了一些研究就是目前跟經濟安全有關的部門當然最重要的當然是經濟部這是沒問題有產發署但其實經濟部最近是有一部分擱到抒發部這是一個再來國科會會管到我們的核心關鍵的技術陸委會這剛好剛剛這個\n\n09:59.723 --> 10:23.058\n這個邱委員長已經馬上發現了所以就上來了就是兩岸條例的這個投審嘛對不對然後外交部的國際多邊出口管制的體制的協作法務部就是剛剛部長提到的查緝的這個問題還有調查這個中資假借那種外資去竊取的問題教育部會有造冊的問題因為他要造冊我們才知道到底哪裡要管理所以就變成說他有點太過於跨部門了\n\n10:23.778 --> 10:48.263\n所有的現在經濟安全我們要保護我們的國家關鍵基礎技術幾乎每一個部門都有這就跟之前我們在跟國防部在詢問的時候說這個解放軍的學校如果念過解放軍學校的人來到台灣我們應該要怎麼辦後來國防部處理完之後發現沒有教育部也要處理因為這些人呢到底他們的學歷認證我們台灣應該怎麼看待所以會變成每一個層面都會牽涉到那一個部分的國家安全\n\n10:48.843 --> 11:16.321\n那經濟安全現在我覺得也面臨這樣的一個問題所以不知道有沒有可能就是我知道用政委直接來主責這件事情當然有可能又是國家預算上的一個問題啦但是有沒有可能不管是用一個辦公室或者用政委或者直接是院長去主責這整個經濟安全的法制那我們就可以把整個法制建構起來裡面就可以處理到剛剛提到的人流還有金流還有剛剛資訊流還有這一個技術的問題\n\n11:19.209 --> 11:45.643\n要看院長或部長有沒有想要補充這一塊報告委員我們在我們的這個智庫裡面有專責的智庫在研究這一個問題有之前像國科會的D-SAT什麼也做了很多但有時候我是怕說什麼就是比如說他們叫不動其他的部會因為他牽扯太廣了有時候這一個部會做了但是另外一個部會不知道這件事情的嚴重性那就會形成一個漏洞所以如果能夠有更高的一個協調機制的話其實對這整體的建構會比較好\n\n11:48.624 --> 12:03.337\n那我知道這個其實是一個大規劃所以不一定現在就必須要給一個答案委員包括兩個現狀現狀就是在部會裡面他們都有內部的會議他們會就他們的目的世界主管去做嚴格的考核那麼\n\n12:04.028 --> 12:18.718\n由政務委員組成的政務會議每個禮拜都會召開都會在裡面有重要的必須拿來大家互相協力完成的政務會議是一個很好的平台我會加強委員所說的這個部分加強\n\n12:20.243 --> 12:46.140\n經濟、資通、安全上面的考量謝謝那因為時間的關係我剛剛講的都是關鍵基礎技術我現在想講一下關鍵基礎設施那最近因為治安案件頻傳就是常常被攻擊裡面當然就是最近發生的這個馬街醫院還有張機有沒有就是他們的資料外洩被駭客攻擊我想這個大家應該都很熟悉了我就不多說那因為畢竟醫院也算是關鍵基礎設施的一環所以至少我們的速發部是能夠去幫忙的\n\n12:46.560 --> 13:14.206\n就是說他要怎麼去建置這個資安啊要怎麼去防止未來的攻擊啊但現在我有一點比較擔心的是這一個就是院長應該知道最近我們立法院通過一個叫做公益階幣者保護法應該知道這部法律吧那這部法律呢還沒有實行但這部法律裡面很特別他就說你今天要階幣的時候呢你可以跟民意代表階幣你可以去跟媒體業者階幣你可以跟法人登記的公益團體階幣\n\n13:15.956 --> 13:27.578\n法人登記的公益團體說真的這邊指的當然就是公益階壁者這個保護協會嘛這個保護協會的理事過去曾經擔任過理事長的就是這個我照片放大這一位這個大家可以看他一下俊俏的臉龐\n\n13:29.053 --> 13:45.454\n所以呢在這件事情上面呢對我來講呢簡單來說你可以帶你的資料到他們的網站然後你可以去爆料你可以去吹哨但我去看他的網站之後我就發現他的網頁的這個原始碼裡面埋了一個這一個那我覺得這個部長看可能就會很熟悉了啦\n\n13:46.255 --> 14:05.258\n他連到一個外面的一個網站那個就值得懷疑這是個JavaScript所以這個Script可以做很多事情所以應該要去再檢測一下是有點值得去就是我會擔心看到這個Script如果你這個講那個Script\n\n14:05.838 --> 14:18.965\n對這個部長因為一看就知道嘛他一看就知道他外連到其他的一個網站但為什麼他外連到其他的網站他其實是被埋了惡意城市那我們就特別去查說就是去導到那一個網站之後那個惡意城市到底是什麼\n\n14:19.873 --> 14:43.503\n結果他竟然是可以去辨識數位足跡去鎖定你的身份比如說今天是法務部長說要來吹哨有沒有然後他根據他的數位足跡發現這個是我平常鎖定的那一個人再跳出病毒讓他去下載去入侵他的電腦然後去取得他的權限然後用病毒感染的方式去竊取這些資料而這一個手法完全符合中國apt24的手法\n\n14:44.332 --> 14:58.124\n那這個對我來說是個問題嘛你等於政府立法建了一個網站然後這個指定了一個網站這個網站可以中國在上面收集資訊那你不是通過一個法然後再幫助中國來收集全台灣人民的個資嗎\n\n14:59.229 --> 15:18.609\n那這個不是只有在這個個案喔比如說好今天消基會他也是民間團體但是他也是我們政府認可的團體他也會有個資電商也會有個資所以法定指定的或者擁有大量個資的電商他完全就會是一個我們個資的漏洞但是我們速發部卻沒有辦法直接去管\n\n15:19.687 --> 15:41.946\n所以這一個部分不知道部長目前來講我們針對這一個方面我有跟其實蘇巴部討論過幾次但要不要你們有一個更全面的方法針對這種事情我們未來到底該怎麼辦這個就想講說第一個當然我們現在有個治安法我們希望能夠趕快通過通過治安法之後當然就是說我們納管主要納管CI跟一些我們的政府還有地方政府\n\n15:43.438 --> 15:51.284\n民間的這些東西我想下一步可能就是我們在三法先通過這一版以後我們下一個修法可能還要對民間的這個\n\n15:55.785 --> 15:55.805\n好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.839,"end":12.5,"text":"謝謝主席,有請院長,謝謝麻煩再請昨天院長備詢"},{"start":49.167,"end":72.354,"text":"謝謝 沈委員好委員長好那這個因為上個禮拜這個賴總統有這一個記者會有一個關於我們現在民主受到很多的滲透中國的攻擊等等之類的這個國家安全現在要守衛啦所以我今天用這個民主保衛戰來作為一個名稱那但是呢因為裡面有很多的法案是過去一年我們已經推出的"},{"start":72.814,"end":90.897,"text":"所以我特別針對裡面的大概是第15還第16點關於這個資訊安全關於認知作戰這一塊我認為還是有必要 理與理性所以我今天大概是問這邊有列三個一個是跟經濟安全有關大概就是像日本2019年一直到現在一直在做那個經濟安全保障"},{"start":91.477,"end":116.044,"text":"那另外一塊是跟資通安全有關有可能會等一下要請到這個書法部的部長那公民的權利我看今天時間可能會來不及但是我剛剛有先跟這個市方部長先聊過所以我可能會著重在前面這兩塊那第一個呢我從這個經濟安全保障開始就是川普2.0以來就是台美關係其實在這邊呢有很多字但是重點就是那紅色的就是一直在講晶片"},{"start":116.664,"end":138.861,"text":"那我看今天還有到上個禮拜就是很多委員的質詢就一直也都是在針對晶片台積電現在去美國啊會不會被吃掉啊什麼等等之類的那我覺得有點搔不到癢處啦我們現在的整個半導體的聚落呢在台灣其實算是非常的重要我們本身就是一個半導體的熱點那我之前呢就在辦公室的時候我們就請"},{"start":140.029,"end":166.904,"text":"辦公室來做一個很簡單的這種商業很常識的這個SWAT的分析就是說我們現在半導體目前我們的機會跟我們的威脅到底是什麼那其實我們的機會一直以來都是因為美國對於先進這個晶片製造它有某種程度的不安那它也是想要把一些製程把它放在美國那這也是我們的機會因為有這個非紅供應鏈有民主供應鏈嘛但是國民黨很喜歡把這個放在T就是Threads"},{"start":167.384,"end":182.114,"text":"他認為說沒有這就是美國要吃掉我們的證據那用這樣來散播一些以美論不過我認為他們有一個點是我們真的必須要注意的就是其實美國在擔心晶片這件事情他最擔心的地方其實還是技術的外流"},{"start":182.841,"end":206.742,"text":"也就是說呢我們如果作為一個節點我們被中國滲透的那麼嚴重結果我們的技術竟然被中國拿去我認為這才是美國最擔心的地方所以整件事情我們本來好好的從日本到德國到美國這樣的一個佈局台積電遍佈全球它本來是一個好的產業佈局但裡面就會有一個漏洞就是如果今天台灣成為白手套要怎麼辦"},{"start":207.748,"end":231.639,"text":"所以在這邊,這都是這陣子的新聞,這個3月4號才一個禮拜前的新聞而已,新加坡就破獲這個中國幫買輝達晶片的白手套,我記得是逮捕了三個人左右。然後這個華爾街日報在3月2號的時候也有特別點名到台灣,就說我們是不是成為一個購買輝達NVIDIA伺服器的白手套。"},{"start":232.299,"end":257.501,"text":"所以這件事情我在 這個不是我現在要問的問題但你可以看到這是我之前的PowerPoint這是2024年10月30的時候那時候我有問部長 有問這個經濟部我那時候也有問教育部就是關於說 這一些交流還有一些公司成為白手套之後我們到底有沒有把他們當作我們管制上的一個清單那時候有算人科技嘛 比特大陸嘛 它背後有華為嘛"},{"start":258.482,"end":287.662,"text":"那時候我們有跟這一個經濟部的專員其實已經討論過他很忌妒他要做更新啊等等之類的那這一個只是可是我認為這可能只是最低階的因為你今天把它列到這一個產品的名單上面或者你把它放在這個出口的管制上面這可能是遠遠不夠因為這個並沒有解決假設他們的人來這邊做滲透他們把技術偷走要怎麼辦所以我今年有提案就是說去年有提案國安法第三條跟這個兩岸條例第九條"},{"start":288.422,"end":316.249,"text":"都是針對這個技術竊取來特別做相關的規範所以在這邊想要問就是院長因為我們現在去年大概提了十部法律的修法很多都跟經濟安全有關但我們現在等待的是院版就是說有些法案一直被藍白卡住那個沒話講但有些我們是在等待院版的出現所以針對第一個就是技術外流這件事情相關法規範的盤點有沒有可能在這一個會期來進行"},{"start":319.217,"end":335.128,"text":"現在委員提到的重要的內容相關的法案行政院代表政府應該在必要的時候尤其是現在這個關鍵的時刻拿出政府的態度弄一個符合現在這個安全上所需要的版本"},{"start":336.128,"end":352.494,"text":"絕對是政府應該做的事情但是我們是希望說 朝野內部 朝野黨團之間的意見能夠再趨於一致那這 行政院員在這個時候跟大家討論以後形成一個共同的版本也可以這一點就要拜託院長 然後部長是不是要補充什麼我們已經要來徵定這個經濟間的罪來修正兩岸條例"},{"start":357.056,"end":373.706,"text":"那院長也有責成我們法務部調查局跟國安局入委會勞動部以及經濟部成立這個跨部會工作小組強化機關之間的橫向聯繫加強查緝相關不法活動因為我們認為如果不"},{"start":374.56,"end":389.832,"text":"很重乏的對經濟安全來講的話確實如委員所指正的很容易把這些訊息給流露出去那一定要透過法務部嚴懲那才會產生效益"},{"start":393.243,"end":408.418,"text":"謝謝部長我覺得這邊講到一個重點就是說假設我們今天要做管制但是我們一定要有查緝的量能其實如果沒有查緝的量能或者沒有回報的機制等於說你把它擺在那邊這個經濟安保也不容易建立所以這也是我認為法務部應該要扮演蠻重要的一個角色"},{"start":409.139,"end":434.452,"text":"那在這邊呢我剛好在這一個二月的時候有去聽美國一場聽證會他也在講這件事情他裡面就有做了幾個建議第一個加強出口管制跟投資的限制然後智慧的貿易限制但這一個呢其實對我們台灣來講還要再做一個轉換因為晶片本身是放在技術類它不是終端的產品嘛所以單純做這樣的一個貿易限制可能還不夠完整第二個他提到"},{"start":435.132,"end":456.446,"text":"國家級的技術要有一個風險評估的單位這個日本現在是有一個專責單位從19年做到現在就專門在做經濟安保了第三個就是要追蹤中國的技術發展我認為台灣不管是經濟部還是事務發部應該有這個能力做這一個美方那時候在聽證會的這三個建議那這個才是我們真的我們投資美國"},{"start":457.106,"end":475.959,"text":"我們又建立了非紅的產業鏈然後又符合相關的規範不是做最基本的什麼資安CMMC的規範那麼簡單而已而是這整體的大方向跟美國一起來做協作不過這邊我就有點擔心就是因為剛剛講的因為技術類的畢竟它是晶片是屬於技術類我們目前貿易法13條跟兩岸條例的35條"},{"start":478.18,"end":494.216,"text":"大部分都是可以看到這個文字高科技貨品的出口的實體管理名單比如說輸往俄羅斯白俄羅斯高科技的貨品的清單就是國家核心的關鍵技術很難直接扣在這個貿易法跟兩岸條例"},{"start":494.756,"end":512.823,"text":"所以這是這一個會期我覺得我們蠻重要的工作既然總統已經在談話裡面說到說我們今天針對中國的滲透跟威脅要越來越多的願板要出現嘛那我覺得除了剛剛因為剛剛講的是人我們剛剛提到的兩岸條例的那一個修正跟國安法的修正是針對人那個人留我們來做修正"},{"start":513.443,"end":523.808,"text":"這一個部分是貿易法跟兩岸條例是針對這一些看起來是貨品物品但其實我們是要針對技術的方面把它涵蓋進去做修正我覺得這兩個可能都要並行"},{"start":525.595,"end":551.538,"text":"所以總統那些材質裡面就是人流物流 音流 技術要有序的調整我們也知道我們現在已經要求了內控外控都要做到什麼東西該進來不該進來尤其重要我們重要的零組件或是晶片要出去去到哪裡如果違法 違規違法的人我們現在的法令我感覺惡阻力不夠 情度不高所以效果不佳我們會從這個方向來著手"},{"start":553.306,"end":577.523,"text":"謝謝院長 那我就希望至少我們從人流物流的這兩個方向我們都來做立法看這一個會期至少能夠討論出一個大方向那另外一個是這個我不知道院長會怎麼想就是說就像我剛剛一直提到的以日本為例它就是有一個主責的一個單位它是直接就是在他們的那一個部長部長室不是部長室就他們的首長室他管的是全部橫跨每一個部門的經濟安全"},{"start":578.163,"end":594.699,"text":"因為我這一方面我就做了一些研究就是目前跟經濟安全有關的部門當然最重要的當然是經濟部這是沒問題有產發署但其實經濟部最近是有一部分擱到抒發部這是一個再來國科會會管到我們的核心關鍵的技術陸委會這剛好剛剛這個"},{"start":599.723,"end":623.058,"text":"這個邱委員長已經馬上發現了所以就上來了就是兩岸條例的這個投審嘛 對不對然後外交部的國際多邊出口管制的體制的協作法務部就是剛剛部長提到的查緝的這個問題還有調查這個中資假借那種外資去竊取的問題教育部會有造冊的問題因為他要造冊我們才知道到底哪裡要管理所以就變成說他有點太過於跨部門了"},{"start":623.778,"end":648.263,"text":"所有的現在經濟安全我們要保護我們的國家關鍵基礎技術幾乎每一個部門都有這就跟之前我們在跟國防部在詢問的時候說這個解放軍的學校如果念過解放軍學校的人來到台灣我們應該要怎麼辦後來國防部處理完之後發現沒有教育部也要處理因為這些人呢到底他們的學歷認證我們台灣應該怎麼看待所以會變成每一個層面都會牽涉到那一個部分的國家安全"},{"start":648.843,"end":676.321,"text":"那經濟安全現在我覺得也面臨這樣的一個問題所以不知道有沒有可能就是我知道用政委直接來主責這件事情當然有可能又是國家預算上的一個問題啦但是有沒有可能不管是用一個辦公室或者用政委或者直接是院長去主責這整個經濟安全的法制那我們就可以把整個法制建構起來裡面就可以處理到剛剛提到的人流還有金流還有剛剛資訊流還有這一個技術的問題"},{"start":679.209,"end":705.643,"text":"要看院長或部長有沒有想要補充這一塊報告委員我們在我們的這個智庫裡面有專責的智庫在研究這一個問題有之前像國科會的D-SAT什麼也做了很多但有時候我是怕說什麼就是比如說他們叫不動其他的部會因為他牽扯太廣了有時候這一個部會做了但是另外一個部會不知道這件事情的嚴重性那就會形成一個漏洞所以如果能夠有更高的一個協調機制的話其實對這整體的建構會比較好"},{"start":708.624,"end":723.337,"text":"那我知道這個其實是一個大規劃所以不一定現在就必須要給一個答案委員包括兩個現狀現狀就是在部會裡面他們都有內部的會議他們會就他們的目的世界主管去做嚴格的考核那麼"},{"start":724.028,"end":738.718,"text":"由政務委員組成的政務會議每個禮拜都會召開都會在裡面有重要的必須拿來大家互相協力完成的政務會議是一個很好的平台我會加強委員所說的這個部分加強"},{"start":740.243,"end":766.14,"text":"經濟、資通、安全上面的考量謝謝那因為時間的關係我剛剛講的都是關鍵基礎技術我現在想講一下關鍵基礎設施那最近因為治安案件頻傳就是常常被攻擊裡面當然就是最近發生的這個馬街醫院還有張機有沒有就是他們的資料外洩被駭客攻擊我想這個大家應該都很熟悉了我就不多說那因為畢竟醫院也算是關鍵基礎設施的一環所以至少我們的速發部是能夠去幫忙的"},{"start":766.56,"end":794.206,"text":"就是說他要怎麼去建置這個資安啊要怎麼去防止未來的攻擊啊但現在我有一點比較擔心的是這一個就是院長應該知道最近我們立法院通過一個叫做公益階幣者保護法應該知道這部法律吧那這部法律呢還沒有實行但這部法律裡面很特別他就說你今天要階幣的時候呢你可以跟民意代表階幣你可以去跟媒體業者階幣你可以跟法人登記的公益團體階幣"},{"start":795.956,"end":807.578,"text":"法人登記的公益團體說真的這邊指的當然就是公益階壁者這個保護協會嘛這個保護協會的理事過去曾經擔任過理事長的就是這個我照片放大這一位這個大家可以看他一下俊俏的臉龐"},{"start":809.053,"end":825.454,"text":"所以呢在這件事情上面呢對我來講呢簡單來說你可以帶你的資料到他們的網站然後你可以去爆料你可以去吹哨但我去看他的網站之後我就發現他的網頁的這個原始碼裡面埋了一個這一個那我覺得這個部長看可能就會很熟悉了啦"},{"start":826.255,"end":845.258,"text":"他連到一個外面的一個網站那個就值得懷疑這是個Java Script所以這個Script可以做很多事情所以應該要去再檢測一下是有點值得去就是我會擔心看到這個Script如果你這個講那個Script"},{"start":845.838,"end":858.965,"text":"對 這個部長因為一看就知道嘛他一看就知道他外連到其他的一個網站但為什麼他外連到其他的網站他其實是被埋了惡意城市那我們就特別去查說就是去導到那一個網站之後那個惡意城市到底是什麼"},{"start":859.873,"end":883.503,"text":"結果他竟然是可以去辨識數位足跡去鎖定你的身份比如說今天是法務部長說要來吹哨有沒有然後他根據他的數位足跡發現這個是我平常鎖定的那一個人再跳出病毒讓他去下載去入侵他的電腦然後去取得他的權限然後用病毒感染的方式去竊取這些資料而這一個手法完全符合中國apt24的手法"},{"start":884.332,"end":898.124,"text":"那這個對我來說是個問題嘛你等於政府立法建了一個網站然後這個指定了一個網站這個網站可以中國在上面收集資訊那你不是通過一個法然後再幫助中國來收集全台灣人民的個資嗎"},{"start":899.229,"end":918.609,"text":"那這個不是只有在這個個案喔比如說好今天消基會他也是民間團體但是他也是我們政府認可的團體他也會有個資電商也會有個資所以法定指定的或者擁有大量個資的電商他完全就會是一個我們個資的漏洞但是我們速發部卻沒有辦法直接去管"},{"start":919.687,"end":941.946,"text":"所以這一個部分不知道部長目前來講我們針對這一個方面我有跟其實蘇巴部討論過幾次但要不要你們有一個更全面的方法針對這種事情我們未來到底該怎麼辦這個就想講說第一個當然我們現在有個治安法我們希望能夠趕快通過通過治安法之後當然就是說我們納管 主要納管CI跟一些我們的政府還有地方政府"},{"start":943.438,"end":951.284,"text":"民間的這些東西我想下一步可能就是我們在三法先通過這一版以後我們下一個修法可能還要對民間的這個"},{"start":955.785,"end":955.805,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":595,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（17時2分）謝謝主席。有請院長，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：院長好。上個禮拜賴總統舉行記者會，提到我們現在的民主受到很多滲透及中國的攻擊等等之類的，所以國家安全需要守衛。因此，我今天用民主保衛戰來作為名稱。不過裡面有很多法案是過去一年我們已經推出的，所以我特別針對裡面的第十五點或第十六點，有關資訊安全、認知作戰這一塊，我認為還是有必要予以釐清。這邊列了三個：一個是跟經濟安全有關，大概像日本從2019年開始到現在，一直在做的經濟安全保障；另外一塊跟資通安全有關，等一下可能要請教數發部部長；至於公民權利，今天時間可能會來不及，但是我剛剛有先跟數發部長聊過，所以我會著重在前面這兩塊。","第一個，我從經濟安全保障開始，川普2.0以來的臺美關係。這邊寫了很多字，重點就是紅色部分，也就是他一直在講晶片。今天及上禮拜很多委員質詢時也一直針對晶片，譬如台積電現在去美國會不會被吃掉什麼等等之類的，我覺得有點搔不到癢處。現在半導體聚落在臺灣算是非常重要，畢竟我們本身就是一個半導體熱點。之前我就在辦公室嘗試做了一個很簡單的商業SWOT分析，也就是現在我們半導體的機會跟威脅到底是什麼？其實我們的機會一直以來都在於，美國對於先進晶片製造有某種程度的不安，所以想把一些製程放在美國，這也是我們的機會，因為我們有非紅供應鏈、民主供應鏈。但國民黨很喜歡把這個放在T上面，也就是Threats，還認為沒有，這就是美國要吃掉我們的證據，並以此來散播疑美論。不過我認為他們有一個點是我們真的必須要注意的，那就是美國擔心晶片這件事情，且其最擔心的地方還是技術外流！也就是如果我們作為一個節點，我們被中國滲透得那麼嚴重，結果我們的技術竟然被中國拿去，我認為這才是美國最擔心的地方。所以整件事情本來好好的，從日本到德國到美國，這樣的布局，台積電遍布全球，本來是一個好的產業布局，但裡面會有一個漏洞就是如果今天臺灣成為白手套要怎辦？螢幕上的這個是這陣子的新聞，大概是一個多禮拜前3月4號的新聞，就是新加坡破獲中國幫買輝達晶片的白手套，我記得是逮捕3個人左右；然後華爾街日報在3月2號的時候也有特別點名到臺灣，質疑我們是不是成為購買輝達（NVIDIA）伺服器的白手套？這個不是我現在要問的問題，你可以看到我之前的PowerPoint，2024年10月30號的時候我有問部長，有問經濟部，也有問教育部，就是關於這一些交流，還有一些公司成為白手套之後，我們到底有沒有把他們列入管制清單？那時候有算能科技、比特大陸，它背後有華為嘛，那時候我們有跟經濟部的專員討論過，他可能嫉妒、要做更新等等之類的，我認為這可能只是最低階的，因為你今天把它列到產品名單上或者放在出口的管制上可能遠遠不夠，因為這樣並沒有解決假設他們的人來這邊做滲透後把技術偷走要怎麼辦？我去年有提案修正國安法第三條、兩岸條例第九條，都是針對技術竊取特別去做相關的規範。在這邊想要問院長，因為我們去年大概提了10部法律的修法，很多都跟經濟安全有關，但我們現在在等待院版，有些法案一直被藍白卡住，那個沒話講，但有些是在等待院版的出現，所以針對第一個，也就是技術外流這件事情，相關法規範的盤點有沒有可能在這個會期進行？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，謝謝委員。委員提到的重要內容、相關法案，行政院代表政府應該在必要的時候，尤其是現在這個關鍵時刻，拿出政府的態度，弄一個符合現在安全上所需要的版本，這絕對是政府應該做的事情，但是我們希望朝野黨團之間的意見能夠再趨於一致，行政院願意在這個時候跟大家討論以後形成一個共同的版本也可以。"],["沈委員伯洋：這一點就要拜託院長。","部長是不是要補充什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：我們已經要增訂經濟間諜罪了，要來修正兩岸條例，院長也有責成法務部調查局、國安局、陸委會、勞動部及經濟部成立跨部會工作小組，強化機關之間的橫向聯繫，加強查緝相關不法活動。因為我們認為如果不重罰，對經濟安全上來講，確實如委員所指正的，很容易會把這些訊息洩漏出去，一定要透過法務部嚴懲，才會產生效益。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長，我覺得這邊講到一個重點，就是假設我們今天要做管制，我們一定要有查緝的量能，如果沒有查緝的量能或沒有回報的機制，等於是擺在那邊，那麼這個經濟安保也不容易建立啦，所以這也是我認為法務部應該要扮演滿重要的角色。","我剛好在2月的時候有去美國聽了一場聽證會，也是在說這件事情，裡面做了幾個建議，第一個，加強出口管制跟投資限制，實施更智慧的貿易限制，這個對臺灣來講還要再做一個轉換，因為晶片本身是放在技術類，不是終端產品，所以單純做這樣的貿易限制可能還不夠完整。第二個，他提到國家級的技術要有一個風險評估單位，日本現在是有一個專責單位從2019年做到現在，是專門在做經濟安保。第三個，要追蹤中國的技術發展。我認為臺灣不管是經濟部、數發部應該有這個能力做當時美方聽證會所提出的這三個建議，這個才是真的投資美國，我們建立了非紅產業鏈，然後又符合相關規範，不是做最基本的資安CMMC的規範這麼簡單而已，而是在整體大方向上跟美國一起協作。","不過這邊我就有點擔心，就是因為剛剛講的技術類的，畢竟晶片是屬於技術類的，我們可以看一下貿易法第十三條、兩岸條例第三十五條的文字，大部分是高科技貨品出口實體管理名單，譬如輸往俄羅斯及白俄羅斯高科技貨品清單，就是國家核心關鍵技術很難直接扣在貿易法跟兩岸條例，所以我覺得這是這個會期我滿重要的工作，既然總統已經在談話中提到，我們針對中國的滲透跟威脅要有越來越多的院版出現嘛，因為剛剛講的是人，我們剛剛提到兩岸條例的修正跟國安法修正是針對人流做修正，這個部分的貿易法跟兩岸條例是針對這些看起來是貨品、物品，但其實我們是要針對技術方面把它涵蓋進去做修正，我覺得這兩個可能都要併行啦。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以總統那天裁示的就是人流、物流、金流、技術有必要做有序的調整，我們也知道，現在也已經要求內控、外控都要做到，什麼東西該進來、不該進來，尤其是我們重要的零組件或晶片要出去、出去到哪裡，對於違規、違法的人，我感覺我們現在法律的嚇阻力不夠、刑度不高，所以效果不佳，我們會從這個方向來著手。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝院長，我希望我們至少從人流、物流這兩個方向都來做立法，希望在這個會期至少能夠討論出一個大方向。","另外，我不知道院長會怎麼想，就像我剛剛一直提到的，以日本為例，就是有一個主責單位，直接就在他們的首長室，管的是全部橫跨每個部門的經濟安全。因為我對這方面有做了一些研究，目前跟經濟安全有關的部門，最重要的當然是經濟部，這沒問題，有產發署，但其實經濟部最近有一部分割到數發部，這是一個。再來國科會會管到我們的核心關鍵技術，陸委會的部分，邱主委已經發現了，馬上就上來了，就是兩岸條例的投審嘛，對不對？外交部的是國際多邊出口管制體制協作，法務部的就是部長剛提到的查緝問題，還有調查中資假借外資去竊取的問題，教育部會有造冊的問題，因對他要造冊我們才知道哪裡要管理，所以就變成有點太過於跨部門了。現在在經濟安全方面，我們要保護國家關鍵基礎技術，幾乎每個部門都有，這就跟之前我們跟國防部詢問到如果唸過解放軍學校的人來到臺灣應該要怎麼辦？後來國防部處理完發現，教育部也要處理，因為這些人的學歷認證到底我們臺灣應該怎麼看待，所以會變成每個層面都會牽涉到那個部分的國家安全。我覺得經濟安全現在也面臨這樣的問題，不知道有沒有可能，我知道用政委直接主責這件事情當然有可能又是國家預算上的一個問題，但是有沒有可能，不管是用一個辦公室或政委或直接由院長去主責整個經濟安全的法制，我們就可以把整個法制建構起來，裡面就可以處理到剛才提到的人流、金流、資訊流跟技術的問題。院長或部長有沒有想要補充這一塊？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們有專責的智庫在研究這個命題。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，有，之前像國科會的DSET也做了很多，但有時候我怕的是什麼？比如說他們叫不動其他部會，因為它牽扯太廣，有時候這個部會做了，但是另一個部會不知道這個事情嚴重性，就會形成一個漏洞，如果能夠有更高的協調機制，對整體的建構會比較好。我知道這其實是一個大規劃，所以不一定現在就必須要給一個答案。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，現狀就是在部會裡面都有內部會議，他們會就他們的目的事業主管去做嚴格的考核。至於由政務委員組成的政務會議，每個禮拜都會召開，在裡面對於重要的、必須拿來大家協力完成的，政務會議是一個很好的平台。我會加強委員所說的這個部分，加強經濟、資通安全上面的考量。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝。因為時間的關係，我剛剛講的都是關鍵基礎技術，我現在想講一下關鍵基礎設施，最近因為資安案件頻傳，就是常常有單位被攻擊，例如最近發生的馬偕醫院與彰基醫院的資料外洩、被駭客攻擊，我想這個大家應該很熟悉，我就不多說了。畢竟醫院也算是關鍵基礎設施的一環，至少我們的數發部是能夠去幫忙的，就是他們要怎麼建置資安、要怎麼防止未來的攻擊。","現在我有一點比較擔心的是，院長應該知道最近立法院通過一個公益揭弊者保護法，應該知道這部法律吧？這部法律還沒有施行，但這部法律很特別，今天你要揭弊的話，可以跟民意代表揭弊，可以跟媒體業者揭弊，也可以跟法人登記的公益團體揭弊，法人登記的公益團體在這邊指的當然就是公益揭弊者保護協會，在過去曾經擔任過這個保護協會理事長的就是我把照片放大的這一位，大家可以看一下他俊俏的臉龐。所以在這件事情上面，對我來講，簡單來說，你可以帶你的資料到他們的網站，然後你可以去爆料，你可以去吹哨，但我去看它的網站之後我就發現，它的網頁的原始碼裡面埋了這一個，我覺得這個部長看到可能就會很熟悉了。"],["黃部長彥男：它連到一個外面的網站，那個就值得懷疑了，因為那是一個增加的script，這個script可以去做很多事情，所以應該要去再檢測一下，是有點值得去……就是這個我會擔心，看到這個script，如果你真的在講那個script……"],["沈委員伯洋：對，部長，因為這個一看就知道，一看就知道它外連到其他的網站，但為什麼它外連到其他的網站？它其實是被埋了惡意程式。我們就特別去查它導到那一個網站之後，那個惡意程式到底是什麼，結果它竟然是可以去辨識數位足跡，去鎖定你的身分。比如說今天是法務部長要來吹哨，然後它根據他的數位足跡發現，這個是我平常鎖定的那一個人，再跳出病毒讓他去下載，去入侵他的電腦，然後去取得他的權限，然後用病毒感染的方式去竊取這些資料，而這一個手法完全符合中國APT24的手法。這個對我來說就是個問題嘛，等於政府立法指定的一個網站，這個網站可以任由中國在上面蒐集資訊，那你不是通過一個法在幫助中國來蒐集全臺灣人民的個資嗎？","這種狀況不是只有在這個個案喔，比如說今天消基會，它也是民間團體，但是它也是我們政府認可的團體，它也會有個資，電商也會有個資，所以法定指定的或者擁有大量個資的電商，它完全就會是我們個資保護的一個漏洞，但是我們數發部卻沒有辦法直接去管理。所以有關這個部分，目前來講，針對這一方面，其實我有跟數發部討論過幾次，不知道部長有沒有一個更全面的方法，針對這種事情，我們未來到底該怎麼辦？"],["黃部長彥男：第一個，當然我們現在有一個資安法，我們希望能夠趕快通過……"],["沈委員伯洋：對，沒錯。"],["黃部長彥男：通過資安法之後，當然就是我們納管CI跟一些我們的政府，還有地方政府……"],["沈委員伯洋：範圍要加大。"],["黃部長彥男：至於民間的這些東西，我們先通過這一版的資安法以後，我們下一個修法可能還要對民間有一些重大的，會收集到很多個資的單位，要再做進一步的管理，這個我想應該要進行。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，那這個就拜託部長，我們一起把資通安全管理法再來修第二次。"],["卓院長榮泰：資安上面我們絕對不允許他開後門，也不允許他打開我們家的門，進來我們這裡拿取我們任何資料，我們要求數發部馬上針對這個部分，調查之後思考該如何處置。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，沒問題，謝謝院長。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來我們請登記第43位張智倫委員，請質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","羅美玲","張嘉郡","林楚茵","黃健豪","林岱樺","邱鎮軍","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","廖先翔","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","郭國文","謝龍介","沈伯洋","張智倫","陳雪生"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2025-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00004","1142601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1142601_00004"}}}