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{\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 621.068, \"end\": 621.148, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"張\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 621.148, \"end\": 621.248, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 621.248, \"end\": 621.328, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 621.328, \"end\": 621.508, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 621.508, \"end\": 621.528, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 625.472, \"end\": 636.081, \"text\": \"台電燃煤的發電成本是3.4%基本上來講它都會加價跟我們的民營業者去買電它在112點的時候是加20%意思就是說它多給了民營電廠20%的獲利\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 625.472, \"end\": 626.813, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"燃\", \"start\": 626.813, \"end\": 627.053, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"煤\", \"start\": 627.053, \"end\": 627.214, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 627.214, \"end\": 627.654, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 627.654, 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\"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 724.482, \"end\": 724.683, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 724.683, \"end\": 724.903, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"許\", \"start\": 724.903, \"end\": 725.043, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 725.043, \"end\": 726.064, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 726.064, \"end\": 726.284, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 726.284, \"end\": 726.484, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 726.484, \"end\": 726.664, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 726.664, \"end\": 726.804, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 726.804, \"end\": 727.405, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"象\", \"start\": 727.405, \"end\": 728.025, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 728.025, \"end\": 728.646, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 728.646, \"end\": 728.946, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 728.946, \"end\": 729.146, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 729.146, \"end\": 729.326, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 729.326, \"end\": 729.487, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 729.487, \"end\": 730.127, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"充\", \"start\": 730.127, \"end\": 730.327, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 730.327, \"end\": 730.447, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 730.447, \"end\": 730.467, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}]}, {\"start\": 731.768, \"end\": 759.625, \"text\": \"所以謝謝部長上次已經跟你報告過了我們希望說台電基本上盡量用自發的電力我們委託民營電廠的時候應該給他合理的利潤而不是讓這個民營電廠可以賺那麼多的錢那第二個我們來看看我剛也跟大家報告在113年的時候因為國際能源下降所以所有的這個台電的自力發電它的價格都比112年度的來低\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 731.768, \"end\": 731.908, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 731.908, \"end\": 732.709, 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\"國\"}, {\"word\": \"際\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 752.2, \"end\": 752.44, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 752.44, \"end\": 752.661, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 752.661, \"end\": 752.901, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"降\", \"start\": 752.901, \"end\": 753.421, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 753.421, \"end\": 753.601, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 753.601, \"end\": 753.821, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 753.821, \"end\": 754.201, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 754.201, \"end\": 754.902, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 754.902, \"end\": 755.582, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 755.582, \"end\": 755.963, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 755.963, \"end\": 756.123, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 756.123, \"end\": 756.203, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"力\", 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{\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 786.526, \"end\": 786.666, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 786.666, \"end\": 786.786, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 786.786, \"end\": 787.026, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 787.026, \"end\": 787.166, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 787.166, \"end\": 787.306, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 787.306, \"end\": 787.326, \"score\": 0.209}]}, {\"start\": 788.547, \"end\": 813.281, \"text\": \"我們了解這個台電的這個短購物價短購電費的這個整個的公式過去以來就是因為這些風力發電的民營業者他針對台電所提出的這些的電力的政策他不能接受所以就從103年以後就用了一個前10年跟後10年不同的電費收費的方式所以才早知台電去買一度的綠電\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 788.547, \"end\": 788.727, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 788.727, \"end\": 788.967, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 788.967, \"end\": 789.508, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 789.508, \"end\": 789.988, \"score\": 0.954}, 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{\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1518.733, \"end\": 1518.753, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1518.753, \"end\": 1518.874, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1518.874, \"end\": 1518.894, \"score\": 0.105}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}]}, {\"start\": 1521.596, \"end\": 1533.177, \"text\": \"就像我們所擔心的這些回收業者在處理完了以後它其實是交由一些民間業者比如說一些剝離廠叫他說因為量少拿去幫我順便回收丟掉\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1521.596, \"end\": 1521.777, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 1521.777, \"end\": 1522.658, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1522.658, \"end\": 1522.899, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1522.899, \"end\": 1523.299, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"擔\"}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 1523.299, \"end\": 1523.52, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1523.52, \"end\": 1523.92, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 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\"那一些這些是一些沒有拿到補作業者有拿到補作業者他拿到的資料跟給環境部的完全不一樣他跟環境部說做的事很好可以清理得很乾淨可是他當他打給下游業者的時候他是拿給他的事這些下游業者這些要做真的去回收再利用的業者沒辦法接受資料所以這就是我要跟\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1534.315, \"end\": 1534.515, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1534.515, \"end\": 1534.655, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 1534.655, \"end\": 1535.256, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 1535.256, \"end\": 1535.436, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1535.436, \"end\": 1535.576, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1535.576, \"end\": 1535.616, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 1535.616, \"end\": 1535.797, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 1535.797, \"end\": 1535.877, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1535.877, \"end\": 1535.957, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"拿\", \"start\": 1535.957, \"end\": 1536.057, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1536.057, \"end\": 1536.357, \"score\": 0.867}, 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\"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 1555.056, \"end\": 1555.217, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1555.217, \"end\": 1555.377, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1555.377, \"end\": 1555.497, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1555.497, \"end\": 1555.617, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1555.617, \"end\": 1555.757, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1555.757, \"end\": 1555.857, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1555.857, \"end\": 1555.977, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 1555.977, \"end\": 1555.997, \"score\": 0.774}]}, {\"start\": 1557.472, \"end\": 1568.977, \"text\": \"部長講的真實的情況是太陽能板的災血破碎料根本就沒有環境部所拿到的資料這麼樣的漂亮這些是在利用的業者\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1557.472, \"end\": 1557.932, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1557.932, \"end\": 1558.172, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"真\", 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{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1566.416, \"end\": 1566.656, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"漂\", \"start\": 1566.656, \"end\": 1566.836, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"亮\", \"start\": 1566.836, \"end\": 1567.897, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 1567.897, \"end\": 1568.077, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1568.077, \"end\": 1568.337, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1568.337, \"end\": 1568.537, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"利\", \"start\": 1568.537, \"end\": 1568.677, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 1568.677, \"end\": 1568.857, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1568.857, \"end\": 1568.957, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 1568.957, \"end\": 1568.977, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 1571.912, \"end\": 1595.657, \"text\": \"私下給我的照片他說要拿現場的食物給我看所以拜託部長跟院長這個東西如果不提早來做的話會是台灣的能源跟生態的耗節這些東西都混在一般的玻璃業者因為量少塞進去拿去丟掉一起拿去丟掉好不好所以謝謝委員提供資料我們一定派人去查然後如果是違法的話我們一定會嚴懲\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"私\", \"start\": 1571.912, \"end\": 1572.072, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 1572.072, \"end\": 1572.372, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1572.372, \"end\": 1572.452, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1572.452, \"end\": 1572.612, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 1572.612, \"end\": 1572.832, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"片\", \"start\": 1572.832, \"end\": 1573.072, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1573.072, \"end\": 1573.412, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1573.412, \"end\": 1573.532, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"拿\", \"start\": 1573.532, \"end\": 1574.072, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1574.072, \"end\": 1574.232, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"食\", 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00:01:27,862\n所以跟院長報告你們是過去以來歷史上三高史上最高稅收超收稅高超徵最高也是預算最高的三高政府那政府收了這麼多人民的納稅錢人民也給了政府那麼多的預算\n\n5\n00:01:28,883 --> 00:01:53,069\n我們今年可以看到萬物皆漲人民幣撥了好幾層的皮我們看到最近三年電價漲了40%台鐵的票價在今年的二月漲了26.8%客運業者國道客運漲了6%今年三月底水價也提出研議要調漲的報告\n\n6\n00:01:55,430 --> 00:02:19,696\n所以我不想講可是我是不是認為賴清德政府是不是現在變成了漲價總統左院長所帶領的是三高預算新高的內閣我是不是可以請教我看到這樣的資料我非常的納悶因為今年的公務人員的加薪只有3%那我可以請教一下部長為何台鐵票價漲了26%國道客運也漲了6%\n\n7\n00:02:23,854 --> 00:02:48,869\n要跟部長說明的是這些人會搭這些的通常都是上班族或者是這個學生公務人員都是一些比較需要搭乘的這些的人這樣子的上漲請問第一個造成物價整個上漲現在很多的這個菜籃族都跟我講現在拿一千塊去菜市場買東西\n\n8\n00:02:50,830 --> 00:03:11,343\n過去有都可以買了很多收穫滿滿現在可能買了一些青菜買了一些肉就發現一千塊都不見了我想要先請教這個部長有上來請問漲價漲那麼多對人民如何解釋謝謝我覺得也不只山高啦我們經濟成長率也很高\n\n9\n00:03:12,418 --> 00:03:23,601\n我們的GDP國家生產總額26兆也很高我們的股票也很高你可以繼續講沒事我認為針對問題我覺得民眾想要了解預算新高漲價也新高我認為說我認定在進步可是我必須對辛苦的蔡蘭族辛苦的很多的人民針對\n\n10\n00:03:36,545 --> 00:03:49,771\n只有漲薪水不漲比如說公務員只漲3%台鐵為什麼漲了這麼多客運為什麼漲了那麼多您知道台鐵已經30年沒有漲票價了嗎我了解可是我還是要政府應該要來補貼這些辛苦的人我們率先前幾年就提出TPAS\n\n11\n00:03:57,642 --> 00:04:10,026\n短程的固定的這些乘客用T-Bus對這些漲價對他影響是最少的而且我們T-Bus又有新的2.0版對常客又有一些新的規劃其實院長我都非常認同你說的\n\n12\n00:04:13,027 --> 00:04:31,377\n可是我的建議就是說可不可以一次我認為漲超過3%的就是要還漲我不是說政府不能漲價可是你一次漲26%或是漲得比人民的加薪的幅度漲得多人民的痛苦指數就會增高就像你講的GDP成長也沒有成長20幾%\n\n13\n00:04:33,238 --> 00:05:01,524\n所以我這一說院長我希望的是說可以苦民所苦我沒有說您準確或錯只是反映人民的心聲如果台鐵反映成本的話絕對不死漲這些幅度我們只要請部長認為他就是應該緩緩的漲調整到合理的票價就可以所以我認為成長百分之二十幾沒有說明原因來部長請說明你要說明原因其實說明了很多之後可以私下向您報告那你有沒有現在直接檢查好不好\n\n14\n00:05:02,404 --> 00:05:26,656\n第一您剛剛所說的GDP只漲3%或者是薪水只漲3%但過去30年薪水漲了幾%您有算過嗎部長你要針對問題回答問你的是台鐵為什麼要漲票價你沒有回答你說過去到現在30年沒有漲它的成本已經成長非常多而且他們的薪資也調漲了意思就是說只要過去沒有漲的你就可以是漲那麼多那剛剛院長講的還漲你有聽清楚嗎\n\n15\n00:05:28,847 --> 00:05:56,756\n院長說全市台鐵票價漲26%就造成人民的痛苦啊報告委員您大概很少搭台鐵也很少在通勤您不曉得現在只要用T-pass基本上是漲不到不管台鐵漲幾趴所以您的意思是說對通勤的民眾來說人民在台鐵票價漲二十幾趴人民無感覺得政府漲26%是OK的通勤的民眾不會受到影響您沒有在通勤所以您大概不曉得\n\n16\n00:05:58,140 --> 00:06:03,000\n那個我跟等一下等一下主席稍等一下這樣子質詢的方式可以嗎\n\n17\n00:06:03,843 --> 00:06:30,545\n沒問題,呼籲一下官員不要反諮詢好不好請委員諮詢之後再回答我是為了民眾來講,你講到我個人身上這就是非常不好的示範好不好好,那如果您不願意回答漲價的原因只要用過去的歷史漲價的原因我剛剛講很多了你要講的是漲價不是不是他的服務也必須要成長,在他的員工的薪水必須要成長你要講的原因是說你這樣子的漲價,人民就\n\n18\n00:06:30,965 --> 00:06:51,072\n不會有感覺,然後你的意思是說台鐵就不會虧損嗎我會減少通勤民眾的衝擊,他們幾乎不會有衝擊到尤其現在有很多台鐵它的成本都一樣就是因為台鐵過去都沒有漲所以您當這個部長來,你看到這個問題就把這二三十年來的一起漲意思就是這樣,好,沒有,你有解釋我就可以了好,那我們看下一頁\n\n19\n00:06:53,680 --> 00:07:17,721\n好所以我希望讓院長知道這個我不希望我們的總統變成漲價總統那卓榮泰院長是三高的內閣那現在這張圖片是民眾跟我檢舉傳給我的他說院長很辛苦現在台灣不管國際國內都遇到嚴重的這個一些影響他不希望說我們的院長在週末的時候是參加\n\n20\n00:07:18,963 --> 00:07:32,259\n類似政治尤其是有相關罷免的宣講活動企圖要罷免在野黨的立委所以我拿到這張照片請院長你是不是覺得這張照片不是很適當\n\n21\n00:07:33,857 --> 00:08:01,616\n這張照片加油很適當啊我的意思是說全民罷免這個舊章話這個章者這樣的照片適當嗎來聽的民眾他身上有什麼樣的標誌衣服他表達什麼意願我們尊重所有來參加活動的所以你的意思是說這個公務員員沒有這個遵守行政中立的這樣的做法我們絕對遵守行政中立那你請問你在場知不知道這是有關於相關罷免的活動我不是\n\n22\n00:08:02,691 --> 00:08:30,443\n我們是做政策的宣導好那我會跟那個人民反映說你是做政策的宣導委員長在新北的那一場歡迎委員來現場聽到現場聽有沒有罷免的活動我們有沒有談到等一下院長我們都尊重人民尋死任何的權利可是我認為行政官員不應該參與這樣的活動而且人民應該要了解說這是怎麼樣的活動比如說你前一場活動就知道了你下一場活動如果還去的話\n\n23\n00:08:31,423 --> 00:08:57,073\n我認為第一場活動你不知道那我們還可以這樣你的幕僚這麼多下一場如果還是這樣的活動我認為民主社會國家不應該行政首長來去參加這個去罷免在野黨立委意圖要就是我們努力想要監督政府的活動我認為如果有這樣的活動的話沒有我這是人民檢舉提供過的照片請院長深思我也沒有說第一場跟第二場聽的人都很清楚我在講總預算的問題\n\n24\n00:08:58,433 --> 00:09:21,714\n我就說因為我在這裡講委員有些聽不懂到那邊講民群眾人民都聽得懂好可是我要跟院長報告一次這樣的照片就是人民提供給我的他認為這樣是很不適當的請院長三思好下一頁委員可以來現場拿一張反罷免的那也許也可以被拍成照片我們不要造成社會的衝突跟對立啊好不好我們在這裡做政策的宣導我們接受任何公開的好那接下來我必須要講\n\n25\n00:09:23,574 --> 00:09:40,216\n這個其實最近大家也討論很多尤其現在剛剛講的很多台鐵票價漲國道客運漲這些東西其實很重要的一個點是電力的問題那我們一直在跟其實我們一直在跟院長跟我們經濟部的郭部長也上來了\n\n26\n00:09:41,357 --> 00:09:46,063\n在講說其實台電113年的稅前虧損高達411億元已經營運連三年虧損那今年114年台電孔繼續虧損那我們必須要講的是台113年的決算已經顯示了\n\n27\n00:09:59,218 --> 00:10:21,528\n每度電的燃料成本已經大減20%為什麼台電還是繼續虧損呢根據清大的一個教授葉教授葉忠光的分析其實這我之前也跟院長報告過了其實問題就出在台電外購電力的價格遠高於台電自發電力的價格我們可以看到這一張在112年的時候\n\n28\n00:10:25,472 --> 00:10:36,081\n台電燃煤的發電成本是3.4%基本上來講它都會加價跟我們的民營業者去買電它在112點的時候是加20%意思就是說它多給了民營電廠20%的獲利\n\n29\n00:10:43,007 --> 00:11:03,887\n結果想不到113年的時候大家可以看到我們台電的自發電力只剩2.5代表就是因為國際燃油價格下降讓我們的台電的燃煤的發電成本比較少可是沒有想到台電居然跟我們的民營電廠買燃煤的時候加價變成34%\n\n30\n00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:15,997\n這意思是什麼呢?當時我就請教很多台電的好朋友問他說是不是這個我們所有台電的這個外購的自營廠商他沒有去\n\n31\n00:11:17,503 --> 00:11:39,402\n依照國際能源下降的部分去給台電相關應的節省這樣的成本所以顧名思義我要跟部長跟院長講的是難道台電就要用這樣的高價跟民營電廠買電嗎是不是可以請部長回答這個應該你要去看他們當初所訂下來的這個合約內容\n\n32\n00:11:41,744 --> 00:12:10,467\n合約內容怎麼樣規範我想我們的國營機構他必須要按照訂約的內容去執行所以不一定是向委員所指證的是故意去加價去跟他買這合約上面所寫的我們必須要遵法所以我們會依照合約的內容去進行當然也許有委員所看到的這個現象不過這個我們回去以後會充分的檢討\n\n33\n00:12:11,768 --> 00:12:39,625\n所以謝謝部長上次已經跟你報告過了我們希望說台電基本上盡量用自發的電力我們委託民營電廠的時候應該給他合理的利潤而不是讓這個民營電廠可以賺那麼多的錢那第二個我們來看看我剛也跟大家報告在113年的時候因為國際能源下降所以所有的這個台電的自力發電它的價格都比112年度的來低\n\n34\n00:12:40,438 --> 00:13:07,326\n可是我們看到風力發電跟太陽能光電尤其是風力發電我們自發電力是4.4可是我們113年外購是6.59的成本我們這個加價了將近50%跟民營電廠來去收電費就是我要跟這個部長講的是說可以讓民營電廠賺那麼多錢嗎那我們後續可以得知的是\n\n35\n00:13:08,547 --> 00:13:33,281\n我們了解這個台電的這個短購物價短購電費的這個整個的公式過去以來就是因為這些風力發電的民營業者他針對台電所提出的這些的電力的政策他不能接受所以就從103年以後就用了一個前10年跟後10年不同的電費收費的方式所以才早知台電去買一度的綠電\n\n36\n00:13:34,221 --> 00:13:53,530\n有時候6塊錢甚至7塊錢這樣的狀況可是這個問題到108年以後因為台電的這個電力的政策改變了以後沒有人要跟台電做生意以及未來本席所擔心的是台電未來只能購買到昂貴的綠電等到這些綠電業者\n\n37\n00:13:55,892 --> 00:14:14,927\n幫他過去天的前十年跟後十年他要到後十年要賣便宜的電的時候比如說一對電3.5、4塊的時候他那時候會跟台電回額就像剛剛郭部長講的他不會依照合約規定來走所以台電過去來講只能買到高額的綠電請問這個郭部長\n\n38\n00:14:17,694 --> 00:14:46,856\n最近的這個牽引的廠商是104年即將在114年10年就要到期了請問他會不會繼續跟賣電給台電綠電業者會繼續賣電給台電嗎我們基本上要去看他們當初所訂的合約到底是怎麼樣我想我們政府一定就是要依法來這個進行他的這個這個合約的內容那所以如果這個委員您認為他是不合理的\n\n39\n00:14:47,864 --> 00:15:14,932\n我們來考慮我們來還是要在法的框架下來尋求解決的辦法當然我現在在督導這個台電的時候我都跟他們講他要從各種的方式去考慮他的這個成本的競爭力如果我今天買的這個電價格比較高的話那我可以從其他的一樣的這個再生能源我可以從其他地方去買我不一定要跟他買\n\n40\n00:15:15,652 --> 00:15:28,458\n它如果太貴我就不可能因為這個影響到我整個的台股的競爭力過去十年這些綠能業者就像之前跟您報告的這些綠能業者都賺飽飽一度店都賣到賣給台電六七塊\n\n41\n00:15:31,079 --> 00:15:50,886\n結果現在10年到他們之前賣貴的電的時候已經結束了他們要賣便宜的電去做Balance的時候這些綠電業者通基本上都會跟台電選擇解約把這些電賣給外面的比如說大型的上數位公司來去賺取更多的電的這些收入那台電不是就變成\n\n42\n00:15:54,080 --> 00:16:11,929\n這個這個冤大頭了嗎而且現在就我所知啦現在你們還在計算這個台電所稱的叫做分手費在計算的時候還沒有一個正確的公式來去來去做未來的這個檢討報告委員這個部分的話就表示他是違約的如果我們訂的約是20年\n\n43\n00:16:13,590 --> 00:16:32,589\n那麼前面高後面低但是他後面不執行的話我想這個一定有可能我要請教一下那這樣可能部長這樣的分手會有算出來的嗎他可以違約不可能那違約我們應該是說這些違約業者無法違約嗎他有可能違約但是我們一定會處分他\n\n44\n00:16:34,175 --> 00:16:56,042\n他一定會處分他可是處分他他是以利益為導向如果你處分他不夠重所以在這邊我也拜託部長是不是可以給他這個懲罰上的委員他的店是要透過我們台電的電網才有辦法賣給他想要賣的客人所以我就是不讓他執行的話他也沒辦法\n\n45\n00:16:56,502 --> 00:17:19,158\n好那我希望部長因為現在整個台電跟民營業者這些綠電公司過去賺那麼多錢現在其實還沒有討論出了一個如何未來解約的一個公式跟計算方式那我也希望說部長可以拿出guards就像你講的應該用懲罰性的方式讓他們繼續跟台電合作來去賣便宜的綠電給台電讓台電不要虧損\n\n46\n00:17:21,124 --> 00:17:28,178\n不然的話我們前十年已經供養他們那麼久了後十年連現在沒有辦法拿出Gas的話我認為台電只會繼續虧損了\n\n47\n00:17:31,104 --> 00:17:54,369\n好所以在這邊我要跟院長跟部長講的我認為立法院他在114年的時候刪減掉給台電的補助一千億不是沒有道理我們是希望說不是不補貼台電這一千億是我們希望說過去台灣人民已經拿了三千億的納稅錢補助了台電原因是很單純就是因為能源\n\n48\n00:17:55,849 --> 00:18:23,788\n現在戰爭的能源價格上漲那如果你現在在補貼台電你沒有一個正確能源政策難道不是把人民的納稅險這一千億拿去補貼綠電業者以及民間業者嗎報告員是這個樣子就是說我們當初為了要補助我們這個國內的國人用電所以我們一共花了六千億但是這個大院給我們只有三千億\n\n49\n00:18:25,256 --> 00:18:31,325\n所以我們實際上還是有3000億所以我們在討論的時候我們在經濟委員會專業的經濟委員會裡面討論過的時候這1000億他只刪了30億但是我們來到大院以後整個被拿掉\n\n50\n00:18:40,782 --> 00:19:07,599\n如果你們有提出更好可以解決我們立法院一些委員的問題的時候就像我講的我們不是不願意補助台電是因為不願意補助台電就像我講的用高價給民營業者或是高價買綠電而且未來只要台電這些綠電業者跟台電解約台電目前沒有辦法拿出一個對台電有利的解約方式報告委員我們的補助只是減少我們財務上面的負擔\n\n51\n00:19:08,820 --> 00:19:36,112\n只是減少我們財務的負擔並不是來補助我們台電在運作上面的虧損我們講過了我們會再努力從我們現在的運作的方式包括我們的商業模式包括我們的這個創電的方式包括我們所有的行政包括我們的運籌模式從各方面來精進所以我們會努力但是我們在請大佑同意我們1000億是在\n\n52\n00:19:38,813 --> 00:20:07,105\n消除我們過去補助同國人的這個財務的這個方面因為我們還是要去借錢我們要借錢來彌補所以那個利息的部分我們大概增加了好幾十億的這個利息所以如果大院給我們補助讓我們財務能夠更健全政府已經補貼台電利息也蠻多的好不好好不好我們就接下來講好那接下來齁需要說部長也還是要提出具體的政策跟立法院來報告好那我們下一頁\n\n53\n00:20:09,124 --> 00:20:36,729\n好接下來我們要請教院長的部分這是我一直很重視的一個問題我們台灣發展那麼多的綠電綠能有關於這個太陽能板以及這個風力發電的這個大型的風液板其實現在在大家在台灣的認定說這些東西未來是台灣積極要做的事其實我們有認同可是我要跟院長報告的是過去從108年到113年過去六年來我們有五家的回收處理那個\n\n54\n00:20:37,449 --> 00:20:55,482\n太陽能板的業者處理了將近一千噸公噸的太陽能板在未來的即將的七年即將會有一萬噸的廢棄的太陽能板再加七年十四年總共有十萬噸的廢棄的太陽能板\n\n55\n00:20:55,962 --> 00:21:10,038\n可是現在讓人民沒辦法接受的是這樣我們的理解就是太陽能板應該是要可以回收的可是現在這五家處理業者他們不是做回收他們是做處理將近或者是報廢的這樣的舉動所以而且尤其是\n\n56\n00:21:10,959 --> 00:21:35,415\n太陽能板過去有跟院長報告它過去就是因為這個玻璃跟這個EVA的這個膜它黏的痕跡沒有辦法分離所以我知道說現在環境部也積極在努力來做整個的太陽能板的一個處理可是到現在目前來講是沒有辦法處理的也沒有辦法回收的只能做報廢的這樣的動作是不是請院長或者是我們部長或\n\n57\n00:21:36,576 --> 00:22:03,374\n可以來解釋一下這樣子未來這麼多的廢棄物過去喔尤其是過去除了這一千噸政府有補助的只有一百多噸沒有補助的給這些回收業者的不曉得丟到哪裡去我收到消息啊就是給一些民間業者拿去跟其他的玻璃業全部混在一起拿去丟這樣子不會造成臺灣未來的這個整個的環保的而且垃圾的危機嗎\n\n58\n00:22:04,876 --> 00:22:22,693\n報告委員我想我們update一下現在科技的狀況太陽能回收的話我們早就已經有看到這樣的一個問題所以工業技術研究院已經完全開發出來可以計轉處理太陽能廢棄物的技術\n\n59\n00:22:27,434 --> 00:22:47,894\n好,謝謝部長。部長,為了了解中研院有去做這樣的事情,他也有不管是計轉或是做一些授權給相關的民間業者。可是就我了解,其實你會後是不是可以提供給我,現在是不是有在生產相關的產品?就我得知是完全沒有。\n\n60\n00:22:48,655 --> 00:22:59,063\n而且現在整個政府單位其實也沒有辦法掌握有生產多少的狀況所以現在是沒有辦法生產的狀況所以就算中原業有在做如果沒有辦法生產\n\n61\n00:23:00,577 --> 00:23:25,946\n報告委員其實第一個是我們國內的太陽能板是從2000年開始用到2010年是因為當時推動百萬陽光屋頂所以那時候開始多了很多我們是2018年19年才訂定等於是太陽能板必須要付那個費用清除處理的費用所以現在我們現在處理的是以前很舊的那目前來看的話的確因為那時候成本不符所以大概只能做這樣的用途\n\n62\n00:23:26,306 --> 00:23:49,124\n但是因為現在有五家未來還有幾家正在審核當中我們希望他們可以全循環的再利用因為那個裡面不是廢棄物是一個很好的資產還可以再循環的所以目前現在還不是最高量的時候所以委員不用擔心預計是2039年是最高量的時候一年大概會有10萬噸的產出那我們預計現在的量可以到13萬噸所以委員這個問題不是很大\n\n63\n00:23:51,185 --> 00:24:18,260\n謝謝彭部長那我們看下一張圖就這張圖這張圖是這個民間的業者給我的這張圖他說原本希望說現在環境部其實有在努力我們也知道也有補貼這些的回收業者一頓是兩萬三千塊可是想不到在我了解有很多民間業者跟我反映說這些回收業者拿到了補助我們看上一頁回收業者在上一頁\n\n64\n00:24:20,796 --> 00:24:34,691\n太陽能這個光電廠設置了光電板了以後等它到了這個年限了以後會有請這個清除業者去清除然後環境部會收到這些繳費的太陽能光電業者的繳費資金以後來去做補貼清除業者\n\n65\n00:24:37,975 --> 00:25:00,613\n那補貼完了以後會到處理機構就是我剛剛講這五家處理機構這五家處理機構一頓現在都拿這個政府兩萬三的這個補貼費然後政府有去集合可是沒有想到這個環境部的集合我不知道是環境部被騙了還是怎麼樣他的集合只是做一般就是做一個自治化的集合所以我們來看一下下兩個月拜託\n\n66\n00:25:02,438 --> 00:25:18,894\n左邊這一頁是現代太陽能廢棄板這環境部給我的資料從處理前原本在一個光電板可以處理完以後分成兩種的玻璃一種是處理後玻璃碎質較多的或者是處理很乾淨的可是當這些回收頁子我剛剛講的現在的狀況\n\n67\n00:25:21,596 --> 00:25:33,177\n就像我們所擔心的這些回收業者在處理完了以後它其實是交由一些民間業者比如說一些剝離廠叫他說因為量少拿去幫我順便回收丟掉\n\n68\n00:25:34,315 --> 00:25:55,997\n那一些這些是一些沒有拿到補作業者有拿到補作業者他拿到的資料跟給環境部的完全不一樣他跟環境部說做的事很好可以清理得很乾淨可是他當他打給下游業者的時候他是拿給他的事這些下游業者這些要做真的去回收再利用的業者沒辦法接受資料所以這就是我要跟\n\n69\n00:25:57,472 --> 00:26:08,977\n部長講的真實的情況是太陽能板的災血破碎料根本就沒有環境部所拿到的資料這麼樣的漂亮這些是在利用的業者\n\n70\n00:26:11,912 --> 00:26:35,657\n私下給我的照片他說要拿現場的食物給我看所以拜託部長跟院長這個東西如果不提早來做的話會是台灣的能源跟生態的耗節這些東西都混在一般的玻璃業者因為量少塞進去拿去丟掉一起拿去丟掉好不好所以謝謝委員提供資料我們一定派人去查然後如果是違法的話我們一定會嚴懲\n\n71\n00:26:36,577 --> 00:27:05,355\n所以拜託一下我希望部長下次查討的時候也通知我我們一起去看一看謝謝好下頁第二個另外一個也是我們覺得綠人政策的問題我們的大型的風機葉片你們知道台電光是台電我們的太陽能板跟風機葉片光是台電它有辦法處理嗎多少的閒置的在我們的台電裡面\n\n72\n00:27:06,577 --> 00:27:30,169\n報告委員,據我的了解,因為這個大概現在只有幾十噸而已那目前來說的話,因為過去發生這個議題的時候環保局有去查,然後也有稽查那現在台電已經承諾放到他們的機房去了,不是裸露在外所以這個看到的景象已經不出現了那台電自己也承諾,因為這個東西一定要去做特別的處理的那這個都是早期\n\n73\n00:27:30,929 --> 00:27:48,908\n很早很早的大概都是多少k瓦的很小的所以未來我們預計大量是2040年那目前我們的量能也都開始起來當然現在的處理技術還不好但是我所知道的其實風機的這個業片是可以再回收再利用再循環的這個都是我們期待可以做的\n\n74\n00:27:49,328 --> 00:28:18,713\n好謝謝院長所以我認為台灣要發展綠能政策我們都支持只是剛剛跟院長報告不要補助這些綠營業者可以補助可是加這麼多錢補助而且尤其是我們這樣的這個太陽能板我們的大型的風月完全沒有辦法處理的狀況台灣還一直努力而且做那麼大的計畫來去做這樣子的東西其實對台灣的整個未來的環境有非常嚴重的影響是的政府有補助的政策\n\n75\n00:28:19,184 --> 00:28:34,895\n接受政府的補貼就要遵照政府的規定否則我們一定嚴查嚴辦好謝謝好下一頁好接下來我要請教有關於這個台積電的問題那台積電我相信很多委員有請教過這個院長跟部長\n\n76\n00:28:36,201 --> 00:28:58,067\n3月4號美國總統川普跟台積電董事魏董事長共同宣布台積電在美國設廠投資金額高達1000億美金因為時間的關係我簡單問一下院長跟部長川普在3月9號的時候說加碼投資到2000億美金請問是真的嗎他應該是把之前的650億加上1000億加起來1650億\n\n77\n00:29:02,950 --> 00:29:17,097\n所以你的意思是說他不是說他不是說這一千億要加碼到兩千億是過去的一千億加上之前已經提供已經投資六百五十億那差的三百五十億是他的加淨位法\n\n78\n00:29:18,722 --> 00:29:41,583\n我們沒有辦法去評論一個外國的領袖他們所說的內容到底是什麼但是我想這個外界的報導或者各方面在講說一千億或者兩千億一千億這個是事實那之前的投資是六百五十億加上一千億那也許他我們沒有\n\n79\n00:29:42,642 --> 00:29:46,104\n沒有必要去評論兩千億這件事情我跟委員報告台積電要投資到美積電這個錢要出去一定要經過經濟部的投審會許可這裡面投審會一定會把關\n\n80\n00:30:07,498 --> 00:30:34,759\n一定會把握謝謝院長跟部長實現關係最後我還是要幫我們國人因為外資三大法人已經15年賣超了我們都很擔心台積電這樣子有點被美國半恐嚇式的投資美國投資台積電投資美國這樣的事情對於台灣整體的未來的就業我們產業的外流等等的這些東西我們還希望說部長跟院長可以提供一個報告給我們所有的委員讓我們可以來放心也讓國人來放心好嗎\n\n81\n00:30:35,419 --> 00:30:37,528\n政府跟所有產業都會保持最好的\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n12113\t18360\t院長各位委員各位官員大家午安是有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選\n27919\t54169\t院長好院長再過兩個月賴總統跟您就即將就職滿週年那回顧去年113年度賴政府有三高這個院長跟您報告哪三高在113年的稅收新高是高達三兆7619億超增稅收新高稅收超增5283億\n57431\t62519\t114年度給政府的預算也是新高原本稅出編列3兆1325億三讀過的預算是2兆9249億\n69969\t87862\t所以跟院長報告你們是過去以來歷史上三高史上最高稅收超收稅高超徵最高也是預算最高的三高政府那政府收了這麼多人民的納稅錢人民也給了政府那麼多的預算\n88883\t113069\t我們今年可以看到萬物皆漲人民幣撥了好幾層的皮我們看到最近三年電價漲了40%台鐵的票價在今年的二月漲了26.8%客運業者國道客運漲了6%今年三月底水價也提出研議要調漲的報告\n115430\t139696\t所以我不想講可是我是不是認為賴清德政府是不是現在變成了漲價總統左院長所帶領的是三高預算新高的內閣我是不是可以請教我看到這樣的資料我非常的納悶因為今年的公務人員的加薪只有3%那我可以請教一下部長為何台鐵票價漲了26%國道客運也漲了6%\n143854\t168869\t要跟部長說明的是這些人會搭這些的通常都是上班族或者是這個學生公務人員都是一些比較需要搭乘的這些的人這樣子的上漲請問第一個造成物價整個上漲現在很多的這個菜籃族都跟我講現在拿一千塊去菜市場買東西\n170830\t191343\t過去有都可以買了很多 收穫滿滿現在可能買了一些青菜 買了一些肉就發現一千塊都不見了我想要先請教 這個部長有上來請問漲價漲那麼多對人民如何解釋謝謝 我覺得也不只山高啦我們經濟成長率也很高\n192418\t203601\t我們的GDP國家生產總額26兆也很高我們的股票也很高你可以繼續講沒事我認為針對問題我覺得民眾想要了解預算新高漲價也新高我認為說我認定在進步可是我必須對辛苦的蔡蘭族辛苦的很多的人民針對\n216545\t229771\t只有漲 薪水不漲 比如說公務員只漲3%台鐵為什麼漲了這麼多 客運為什麼漲了那麼多您知道台鐵已經30年沒有漲票價了嗎我了解 可是我還是要 政府應該要來補貼這些辛苦的人我們率先前幾年就提出TPAS\n237642\t250026\t短程的固定的這些乘客用T-Bus對這些漲價對他影響是最少的而且我們T-Bus又有新的2.0版對常客又有一些新的規劃其實院長我都非常認同你說的\n253027\t271377\t可是我的建議就是說可不可以一次我認為漲超過3%的就是要還漲我不是說政府不能漲價可是你一次漲26%或是漲得比人民的加薪的幅度漲得多人民的痛苦指數就會增高就像你講的GDP成長也沒有成長20幾%\n273238\t301524\t所以我這一說 院長我希望的是說可以苦民所苦我沒有說您準確或錯只是反映人民的心聲如果台鐵反映成本的話絕對不死漲這些幅度我們只要請部長認為他就是應該緩緩的漲調整到合理的票價就可以所以我認為成長百分之二十幾沒有說明原因來 部長請說明你要說明原因其實說明了很多之後可以私下向您報告那你有沒有現在直接檢查好不好\n302404\t326656\t第一您剛剛所說的GDP只漲3%或者是薪水只漲3%但過去30年薪水漲了幾%您有算過嗎部長你要針對問題回答問你的是台鐵為什麼要漲票價你沒有回答你說過去到現在30年沒有漲它的成本已經成長非常多而且他們的薪資也調漲了意思就是說只要過去沒有漲的你就可以是漲那麼多那剛剛院長講的還漲你有聽清楚嗎\n328847\t356756\t院長說全市台鐵票價漲26%就造成人民的痛苦啊報告委員您大概很少搭台鐵也很少在通勤您不曉得現在只要用T-pass基本上是漲不到不管台鐵漲幾趴所以您的意思是說對通勤的民眾來說人民在台鐵票價漲二十幾趴人民無感覺得政府漲26%是OK的通勤的民眾不會受到影響您沒有在通勤所以您大概不曉得\n358140\t363000\t那個我跟等一下等一下主席稍等一下這樣子質詢的方式可以嗎\n363843\t390545\t沒問題,呼籲一下官員不要反諮詢好不好請委員諮詢之後再回答我是為了民眾來講,你講到我個人身上這就是非常不好的示範好不好好,那如果您不願意回答漲價的原因只要用過去的歷史漲價的原因我剛剛講很多了你要講的是漲價不是不是他的服務也必須要成長,在他的員工的薪水必須要成長你要講的原因是說你這樣子的漲價,人民就\n390965\t411072\t不會有感覺,然後你的意思是說台鐵就不會虧損嗎我會減少通勤民眾的衝擊,他們幾乎不會有衝擊到尤其現在有很多台鐵它的成本都一樣就是因為台鐵過去都沒有漲所以您當這個部長來,你看到這個問題就把這二三十年來的一起漲意思就是這樣,好,沒有,你有解釋我就可以了好,那我們看下一頁\n413680\t437721\t好所以我希望讓院長知道這個我不希望我們的總統變成漲價總統那卓榮泰院長是三高的內閣那現在這張圖片是民眾跟我檢舉傳給我的他說院長很辛苦現在台灣不管國際國內都遇到嚴重的這個一些影響他不希望說我們的院長在週末的時候是參加\n438963\t452259\t類似政治尤其是有相關罷免的宣講活動企圖要罷免在野黨的立委所以我拿到這張照片請院長你是不是覺得這張照片不是很適當\n453857\t481616\t這張照片加油很適當啊我的意思是說全民罷免這個舊章話這個章者這樣的照片適當嗎來聽的民眾他身上有什麼樣的標誌衣服他表達什麼意願我們尊重所有來參加活動的所以你的意思是說這個公務員員沒有這個遵守行政中立的這樣的做法我們絕對遵守行政中立那你請問你在場知不知道這是有關於相關罷免的活動我不是\n482691\t510443\t我們是做政策的宣導好 那我會跟那個人民反映說你是做政策的宣導委員長在新北的那一場 歡迎委員來現場聽到現場聽 有沒有罷免的活動我們有沒有談到等一下 院長我們都尊重人民尋死任何的權利可是我認為行政官員不應該參與這樣的活動而且人民應該要了解說這是怎麼樣的活動比如說你前一場活動就知道了你下一場活動如果還去的話\n511423\t537073\t我認為第一場活動你不知道那我們還可以這樣你的幕僚這麼多下一場如果還是這樣的活動我認為民主社會國家不應該行政首長來去參加這個去罷免在野黨立委意圖要就是我們努力想要監督政府的活動我認為如果有這樣的活動的話沒有我這是人民檢舉提供過的照片請院長深思我也沒有說第一場跟第二場聽的人都很清楚我在講總預算的問題\n538433\t561714\t我就說 因為我在這裡講 委員有些聽不懂到那邊講 民 群眾 人民都聽得懂好 可是我要跟院長報告一次這樣的照片就是人民提供給我的他認為這樣是很不適當的請院長三思好 下一頁委員可以來現場拿一張反罷免的那也許也可以被拍成照片我們不要造成社會的衝突跟對立啊好不好我們在這裡做政策的宣導我們接受任何公開的好 那接下來我必須要講\n563574\t580216\t這個其實最近大家也討論很多尤其現在剛剛講的很多台鐵票價漲國道客運漲這些東西其實很重要的一個點是電力的問題那我們一直在跟其實我們一直在跟院長跟我們經濟部的郭部長也上來了\n581357\t586063\t在講說其實台電113年的稅前虧損高達411億元已經營運連三年虧損那今年114年台電孔繼續虧損那我們必須要講的是台113年的決算已經顯示了\n599218\t621528\t每度電的燃料成本已經大減20%為什麼台電還是繼續虧損呢根據清大的一個教授葉教授葉忠光的分析其實這我之前也跟院長報告過了其實問題就出在台電外購電力的價格遠高於台電自發電力的價格我們可以看到這一張在112年的時候\n625472\t636081\t台電燃煤的發電成本是3.4%基本上來講它都會加價跟我們的民營業者去買電它在112點的時候是加20%意思就是說它多給了民營電廠20%的獲利\n643007\t663887\t結果想不到113年的時候大家可以看到我們台電的自發電力只剩2.5代表就是因為國際燃油價格下降讓我們的台電的燃煤的發電成本比較少可是沒有想到台電居然跟我們的民營電廠買燃煤的時候加價變成34%\n666520\t675997\t這意思是什麼呢?當時我就請教很多台電的好朋友問他說是不是這個我們所有台電的這個外購的自營廠商他沒有去\n677503\t699402\t依照國際能源下降的部分去給台電相關應的節省這樣的成本所以顧名思義我要跟部長跟院長講的是難道台電就要用這樣的高價跟民營電廠買電嗎是不是可以請部長回答這個應該你要去看他們當初所訂下來的這個合約內容\n701744\t730467\t合約內容怎麼樣規範我想我們的國營機構他必須要按照訂約的內容去執行所以不一定是向委員所指證的是故意去加價去跟他買這合約上面所寫的我們必須要遵法所以我們會依照合約的內容去進行當然也許有委員所看到的這個現象不過這個我們回去以後會充分的檢討\n731768\t759625\t所以謝謝部長上次已經跟你報告過了我們希望說台電基本上盡量用自發的電力我們委託民營電廠的時候應該給他合理的利潤而不是讓這個民營電廠可以賺那麼多的錢那第二個我們來看看我剛也跟大家報告在113年的時候因為國際能源下降所以所有的這個台電的自力發電它的價格都比112年度的來低\n760438\t787326\t可是我們看到風力發電跟太陽能光電尤其是風力發電我們自發電力是4.4可是我們113年外購是6.59的成本我們這個加價了將近50%跟民營電廠來去收電費就是我要跟這個部長講的是說可以讓民營電廠賺那麼多錢嗎那我們後續可以得知的是\n788547\t813281\t我們了解這個台電的這個短購物價短購電費的這個整個的公式過去以來就是因為這些風力發電的民營業者他針對台電所提出的這些的電力的政策他不能接受所以就從103年以後就用了一個前10年跟後10年不同的電費收費的方式所以才早知台電去買一度的綠電\n814221\t833530\t有時候6塊錢甚至7塊錢這樣的狀況可是這個問題到108年以後因為台電的這個電力的政策改變了以後沒有人要跟台電做生意以及未來本席所擔心的是台電未來只能購買到昂貴的綠電等到這些綠電業者\n835892\t854927\t幫他過去天的前十年跟後十年他要到後十年要賣便宜的電的時候比如說一對電3.5、4塊的時候他那時候會跟台電回額就像剛剛郭部長講的他不會依照合約規定來走所以台電過去來講只能買到高額的綠電請問這個郭部長\n857694\t886856\t最近的這個牽引的廠商是104年即將在114年10年就要到期了請問他會不會繼續跟賣電給台電綠電業者會繼續賣電給台電嗎我們基本上要去看他們當初所訂的合約到底是怎麼樣我想我們政府一定就是要依法來這個進行他的這個這個合約的內容那所以如果這個委員您認為他是不合理的\n887864\t914932\t我們來考慮我們來還是要在法的框架下來尋求解決的辦法當然我現在在督導這個台電的時候我都跟他們講他要從各種的方式去考慮他的這個成本的競爭力如果我今天買的這個電價格比較高的話那我可以從其他的一樣的這個再生能源我可以從其他地方去買我不一定要跟他買\n915652\t928458\t它如果太貴我就不可能因為這個影響到我整個的台股的競爭力過去十年這些綠能業者就像之前跟您報告的這些綠能業者都賺飽飽一度店都賣到賣給台電六七塊\n931079\t950886\t結果現在10年到他們之前賣貴的電的時候已經結束了他們要賣便宜的電去做Balance的時候這些綠電業者通基本上都會跟台電選擇解約把這些電賣給外面的比如說大型的上數位公司來去賺取更多的電的這些收入那台電不是就變成\n954080\t971929\t這個這個冤大頭了嗎而且現在就我所知啦現在你們還在計算這個台電所稱的叫做分手費在計算的時候還沒有一個正確的公式來去來去做未來的這個檢討報告委員這個部分的話就表示他是違約的如果我們訂的約是20年\n973590\t992589\t那麼前面高後面低但是他後面不執行的話我想這個一定有可能我要請教一下那這樣可能部長這樣的分手會有算出來的嗎他可以違約不可能那違約我們應該是說這些違約業者無法違約嗎他有可能違約但是我們一定會處分他\n994175\t1016042\t他一定會處分他可是處分他他是以利益為導向如果你處分他不夠重所以在這邊我也拜託部長是不是可以給他這個懲罰上的委員他的店是要透過我們台電的電網才有辦法賣給他想要賣的客人所以我就是不讓他執行的話他也沒辦法\n1016502\t1039158\t好那我希望部長因為現在整個台電跟民營業者這些綠電公司過去賺那麼多錢現在其實還沒有討論出了一個如何未來解約的一個公式跟計算方式那我也希望說部長可以拿出guards就像你講的應該用懲罰性的方式讓他們繼續跟台電合作來去賣便宜的綠電給台電讓台電不要虧損\n1041124\t1048178\t不然的話我們前十年已經供養他們那麼久了後十年連現在沒有辦法拿出Gas的話我認為台電只會繼續虧損了\n1051104\t1074369\t好所以在這邊我要跟院長跟部長講的我認為立法院他在114年的時候刪減掉給台電的補助一千億不是沒有道理我們是希望說不是不補貼台電這一千億是我們希望說過去台灣人民已經拿了三千億的納稅錢補助了台電原因是很單純就是因為能源\n1075849\t1103788\t現在戰爭的能源價格上漲那如果你現在在補貼台電你沒有一個正確能源政策難道不是把人民的納稅險這一千億拿去補貼綠電業者以及民間業者嗎報告員是這個樣子就是說我們當初為了要補助我們這個國內的國人用電所以我們一共花了六千億但是這個大院給我們只有三千億\n1105256\t1111325\t所以我們實際上還是有3000億所以我們在討論的時候我們在經濟委員會專業的經濟委員會裡面討論過的時候這1000億他只刪了30億但是我們來到大院以後整個被拿掉\n1120782\t1147599\t如果你們有提出更好可以解決我們立法院一些委員的問題的時候就像我講的我們不是不願意補助台電是因為不願意補助台電就像我講的用高價給民營業者或是高價買綠電而且未來只要台電這些綠電業者跟台電解約台電目前沒有辦法拿出一個對台電有利的解約方式報告委員我們的補助只是減少我們財務上面的負擔\n1148820\t1176112\t只是減少我們財務的負擔並不是來補助我們台電在運作上面的虧損我們講過了我們會再努力從我們現在的運作的方式包括我們的商業模式包括我們的這個創電的方式包括我們所有的行政包括我們的運籌模式從各方面來精進所以我們會努力但是我們在請大佑同意我們1000億是在\n1178813\t1207105\t消除我們過去補助同國人的這個財務的這個方面因為我們還是要去借錢我們要借錢來彌補所以那個利息的部分我們大概增加了好幾十億的這個利息所以如果大院給我們補助讓我們財務能夠更健全政府已經補貼台電利息也蠻多的好不好好不好我們就接下來講好那接下來齁需要說部長也還是要提出具體的政策跟立法院來報告好那我們下一頁\n1209124\t1236729\t好 接下來我們要請教院長的部分這是我一直很重視的一個問題我們台灣發展那麼多的綠電 綠能有關於這個太陽能板以及這個風力發電的這個大型的風液板其實現在在大家在台灣的認定說這些東西未來是台灣積極要做的事其實我們有認同可是我要跟院長報告的是過去從108年到113年過去六年來我們有五家的回收處理那個\n1237449\t1255482\t太陽能板的業者處理了將近一千噸公噸的太陽能板在未來的即將的七年即將會有一萬噸的廢棄的太陽能板再加七年十四年總共有十萬噸的廢棄的太陽能板\n1255962\t1270038\t可是現在讓人民沒辦法接受的是這樣我們的理解就是太陽能板應該是要可以回收的可是現在這五家處理業者他們不是做回收他們是做處理將近或者是報廢的這樣的舉動所以而且尤其是\n1270959\t1295415\t太陽能板過去有跟院長報告它過去就是因為這個玻璃跟這個EVA的這個膜它黏的痕跡沒有辦法分離所以我知道說現在環境部也積極在努力來做整個的太陽能板的一個處理可是到現在目前來講是沒有辦法處理的也沒有辦法回收的只能做報廢的這樣的動作是不是請院長或者是我們部長或\n1296576\t1323374\t可以來解釋一下 這樣子未來這麼多的廢棄物過去喔 尤其是過去除了這一千噸政府有補助的只有一百多噸沒有補助的 給這些回收業者的不曉得丟到哪裡去我收到消息啊 就是給一些民間業者拿去跟其他的玻璃業 全部混在一起拿去丟這樣子不會造成臺灣未來的這個整個的環保的而且垃圾的危機嗎\n1324876\t1342693\t報告委員我想我們update一下現在科技的狀況太陽能回收的話我們早就已經有看到這樣的一個問題所以工業技術研究院已經完全開發出來可以計轉處理太陽能廢棄物的技術\n1347434\t1367894\t好,謝謝部長。部長,為了了解中研院有去做這樣的事情,他也有不管是計轉或是做一些授權給相關的民間業者。可是就我了解,其實你會後是不是可以提供給我,現在是不是有在生產相關的產品?就我得知是完全沒有。\n1368655\t1379063\t而且現在整個政府單位其實也沒有辦法掌握有生產多少的狀況所以現在是沒有辦法生產的狀況所以就算中原業有在做如果沒有辦法生產\n1380577\t1405946\t報告委員其實第一個是我們國內的太陽能板是從2000年開始用到2010年是因為當時推動百萬陽光屋頂所以那時候開始多了很多我們是2018年19年才訂定等於是太陽能板必須要付那個費用清除處理的費用所以現在我們現在處理的是以前很舊的那目前來看的話的確因為那時候成本不符所以大概只能做這樣的用途\n1406306\t1429124\t但是因為現在有五家 未來還有幾家正在審核當中我們希望他們可以全循環的再利用因為那個裡面不是廢棄物是一個很好的資產 還可以再循環的所以目前現在還不是最高量的時候所以委員不用擔心預計是2039年是最高量的時候一年大概會有10萬噸的產出那我們預計現在的量可以到13萬噸所以委員這個問題不是很大\n1431185\t1458260\t謝謝彭部長那我們看下一張圖就這張圖這張圖是這個民間的業者給我的這張圖他說原本希望說現在環境部其實有在努力我們也知道也有補貼這些的回收業者一頓是兩萬三千塊可是想不到在我了解有很多民間業者跟我反映說這些回收業者拿到了補助我們看上一頁回收業者在上一頁\n1460796\t1474691\t太陽能這個光電廠設置了光電板了以後等它到了這個年限了以後會有請這個清除業者去清除然後環境部會收到這些繳費的太陽能光電業者的繳費資金以後來去做補貼清除業者\n1477975\t1500613\t那補貼完了以後會到處理機構就是我剛剛講這五家處理機構這五家處理機構一頓現在都拿這個政府兩萬三的這個補貼費然後政府有去集合可是沒有想到這個環境部的集合我不知道是環境部被騙了還是怎麼樣他的集合只是做一般就是做一個自治化的集合所以我們來看一下下兩個月拜託\n1502438\t1518894\t左邊這一頁是現代太陽能廢棄板這環境部給我的資料從處理前原本在一個光電板可以處理完以後分成兩種的玻璃一種是處理後玻璃碎質較多的或者是處理很乾淨的可是當這些回收頁子我剛剛講的現在的狀況\n1521596\t1533177\t就像我們所擔心的這些回收業者在處理完了以後它其實是交由一些民間業者比如說一些剝離廠叫他說因為量少拿去幫我順便回收丟掉\n1534315\t1555997\t那一些這些是一些沒有拿到補作業者有拿到補作業者他拿到的資料跟給環境部的完全不一樣他跟環境部說做的事很好可以清理得很乾淨可是他當他打給下游業者的時候他是拿給他的事這些下游業者這些要做真的去回收再利用的業者沒辦法接受資料所以這就是我要跟\n1557472\t1568977\t部長講的真實的情況是太陽能板的災血破碎料根本就沒有環境部所拿到的資料這麼樣的漂亮這些是在利用的業者\n1571912\t1595657\t私下給我的照片他說要拿現場的食物給我看所以拜託部長跟院長這個東西如果不提早來做的話會是台灣的能源跟生態的耗節這些東西都混在一般的玻璃業者因為量少塞進去拿去丟掉一起拿去丟掉好不好所以謝謝委員提供資料我們一定派人去查然後如果是違法的話我們一定會嚴懲\n1596577\t1625355\t所以拜託一下我希望部長下次查討的時候也通知我我們一起去看一看謝謝好下頁第二個另外一個也是我們覺得綠人政策的問題我們的大型的風機葉片你們知道台電光是台電我們的太陽能板跟風機葉片光是台電它有辦法處理嗎多少的閒置的在我們的台電裡面\n1626577\t1650169\t報告委員,據我的了解,因為這個大概現在只有幾十噸而已那目前來說的話,因為過去發生這個議題的時候環保局有去查,然後也有稽查那現在台電已經承諾放到他們的機房去了,不是裸露在外所以這個看到的景象已經不出現了那台電自己也承諾,因為這個東西一定要去做特別的處理的那這個都是早期\n1650929\t1668908\t很早很早的大概都是多少k瓦的很小的所以未來我們預計大量是2040年那目前我們的量能也都開始起來當然現在的處理技術還不好但是我所知道的其實風機的這個業片是可以再回收再利用再循環的這個都是我們期待可以做的\n1669328\t1698713\t好 謝謝院長所以我認為台灣要發展綠能政策我們都支持只是剛剛跟院長報告不要補助這些綠營業者可以補助可是加這麼多錢補助而且尤其是我們這樣的這個太陽能板我們的大型的風月完全沒有辦法處理的狀況台灣還一直努力而且做那麼大的計畫來去做這樣子的東西其實對台灣的整個未來的環境有非常嚴重的影響是的 政府有補助的政策\n1699184\t1714895\t接受政府的補貼就要遵照政府的規定否則我們一定嚴查嚴辦好 謝謝好 下一頁好 接下來我要請教有關於這個台積電的問題那台積電我相信很多委員有請教過這個院長跟部長\n1716201\t1738067\t3月4號美國總統川普跟台積電董事魏董事長共同宣布台積電在美國設廠投資金額高達1000億美金因為時間的關係我簡單問一下院長跟部長川普在3月9號的時候說加碼投資到2000億美金請問是真的嗎他應該是把之前的650億加上1000億加起來1650億\n1742950\t1757097\t所以你的意思是說他不是說他不是說這一千億要加碼到兩千億是過去的一千億加上之前已經提供已經投資六百五十億那差的三百五十億是他的加淨位法\n1758722\t1781583\t我們沒有辦法去評論一個外國的領袖他們所說的內容到底是什麼但是我想這個外界的報導或者各方面在講說一千億或者兩千億一千億這個是事實那之前的投資是六百五十億加上一千億那也許他我們沒有\n1782642\t1786104\t沒有必要去評論兩千億這件事情我跟委員報告台積電要投資到美積電這個錢要出去一定要經過經濟部的投審會許可這裡面投審會一定會把關\n1807498\t1834759\t一定會把握謝謝院長跟部長實現關係最後我還是要幫我們國人因為外資三大法人已經15年賣超了我們都很擔心台積電這樣子有點被美國半恐嚇式的投資美國投資台積電投資美國這樣的事情對於台灣整體的未來的就業我們產業的外流等等的這些東西我們還希望說部長跟院長可以提供一個報告給我們所有的委員讓我們可以來放心也讓國人來放心好嗎\n1835419\t1837528\t政府跟所有產業都會保持最好的\n","txt":"院長各位委員各位官員大家午安是有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選\n院長好院長再過兩個月賴總統跟您就即將就職滿週年那回顧去年113年度賴政府有三高這個院長跟您報告哪三高在113年的稅收新高是高達三兆7619億超增稅收新高稅收超增5283億\n114年度給政府的預算也是新高原本稅出編列3兆1325億三讀過的預算是2兆9249億\n所以跟院長報告你們是過去以來歷史上三高史上最高稅收超收稅高超徵最高也是預算最高的三高政府那政府收了這麼多人民的納稅錢人民也給了政府那麼多的預算\n我們今年可以看到萬物皆漲人民幣撥了好幾層的皮我們看到最近三年電價漲了40%台鐵的票價在今年的二月漲了26.8%客運業者國道客運漲了6%今年三月底水價也提出研議要調漲的報告\n所以我不想講可是我是不是認為賴清德政府是不是現在變成了漲價總統左院長所帶領的是三高預算新高的內閣我是不是可以請教我看到這樣的資料我非常的納悶因為今年的公務人員的加薪只有3%那我可以請教一下部長為何台鐵票價漲了26%國道客運也漲了6%\n要跟部長說明的是這些人會搭這些的通常都是上班族或者是這個學生公務人員都是一些比較需要搭乘的這些的人這樣子的上漲請問第一個造成物價整個上漲現在很多的這個菜籃族都跟我講現在拿一千塊去菜市場買東西\n過去有都可以買了很多 收穫滿滿現在可能買了一些青菜 買了一些肉就發現一千塊都不見了我想要先請教 這個部長有上來請問漲價漲那麼多對人民如何解釋謝謝 我覺得也不只山高啦我們經濟成長率也很高\n我們的GDP國家生產總額26兆也很高我們的股票也很高你可以繼續講沒事我認為針對問題我覺得民眾想要了解預算新高漲價也新高我認為說我認定在進步可是我必須對辛苦的蔡蘭族辛苦的很多的人民針對\n只有漲 薪水不漲 比如說公務員只漲3%台鐵為什麼漲了這麼多 客運為什麼漲了那麼多您知道台鐵已經30年沒有漲票價了嗎我了解 可是我還是要 政府應該要來補貼這些辛苦的人我們率先前幾年就提出TPAS\n短程的固定的這些乘客用T-Bus對這些漲價對他影響是最少的而且我們T-Bus又有新的2.0版對常客又有一些新的規劃其實院長我都非常認同你說的\n可是我的建議就是說可不可以一次我認為漲超過3%的就是要還漲我不是說政府不能漲價可是你一次漲26%或是漲得比人民的加薪的幅度漲得多人民的痛苦指數就會增高就像你講的GDP成長也沒有成長20幾%\n所以我這一說 院長我希望的是說可以苦民所苦我沒有說您準確或錯只是反映人民的心聲如果台鐵反映成本的話絕對不死漲這些幅度我們只要請部長認為他就是應該緩緩的漲調整到合理的票價就可以所以我認為成長百分之二十幾沒有說明原因來 部長請說明你要說明原因其實說明了很多之後可以私下向您報告那你有沒有現在直接檢查好不好\n第一您剛剛所說的GDP只漲3%或者是薪水只漲3%但過去30年薪水漲了幾%您有算過嗎部長你要針對問題回答問你的是台鐵為什麼要漲票價你沒有回答你說過去到現在30年沒有漲它的成本已經成長非常多而且他們的薪資也調漲了意思就是說只要過去沒有漲的你就可以是漲那麼多那剛剛院長講的還漲你有聽清楚嗎\n院長說全市台鐵票價漲26%就造成人民的痛苦啊報告委員您大概很少搭台鐵也很少在通勤您不曉得現在只要用T-pass基本上是漲不到不管台鐵漲幾趴所以您的意思是說對通勤的民眾來說人民在台鐵票價漲二十幾趴人民無感覺得政府漲26%是OK的通勤的民眾不會受到影響您沒有在通勤所以您大概不曉得\n那個我跟等一下等一下主席稍等一下這樣子質詢的方式可以嗎\n沒問題,呼籲一下官員不要反諮詢好不好請委員諮詢之後再回答我是為了民眾來講,你講到我個人身上這就是非常不好的示範好不好好,那如果您不願意回答漲價的原因只要用過去的歷史漲價的原因我剛剛講很多了你要講的是漲價不是不是他的服務也必須要成長,在他的員工的薪水必須要成長你要講的原因是說你這樣子的漲價,人民就\n不會有感覺,然後你的意思是說台鐵就不會虧損嗎我會減少通勤民眾的衝擊,他們幾乎不會有衝擊到尤其現在有很多台鐵它的成本都一樣就是因為台鐵過去都沒有漲所以您當這個部長來,你看到這個問題就把這二三十年來的一起漲意思就是這樣,好,沒有,你有解釋我就可以了好,那我們看下一頁\n好所以我希望讓院長知道這個我不希望我們的總統變成漲價總統那卓榮泰院長是三高的內閣那現在這張圖片是民眾跟我檢舉傳給我的他說院長很辛苦現在台灣不管國際國內都遇到嚴重的這個一些影響他不希望說我們的院長在週末的時候是參加\n類似政治尤其是有相關罷免的宣講活動企圖要罷免在野黨的立委所以我拿到這張照片請院長你是不是覺得這張照片不是很適當\n這張照片加油很適當啊我的意思是說全民罷免這個舊章話這個章者這樣的照片適當嗎來聽的民眾他身上有什麼樣的標誌衣服他表達什麼意願我們尊重所有來參加活動的所以你的意思是說這個公務員員沒有這個遵守行政中立的這樣的做法我們絕對遵守行政中立那你請問你在場知不知道這是有關於相關罷免的活動我不是\n我們是做政策的宣導好 那我會跟那個人民反映說你是做政策的宣導委員長在新北的那一場 歡迎委員來現場聽到現場聽 有沒有罷免的活動我們有沒有談到等一下 院長我們都尊重人民尋死任何的權利可是我認為行政官員不應該參與這樣的活動而且人民應該要了解說這是怎麼樣的活動比如說你前一場活動就知道了你下一場活動如果還去的話\n我認為第一場活動你不知道那我們還可以這樣你的幕僚這麼多下一場如果還是這樣的活動我認為民主社會國家不應該行政首長來去參加這個去罷免在野黨立委意圖要就是我們努力想要監督政府的活動我認為如果有這樣的活動的話沒有我這是人民檢舉提供過的照片請院長深思我也沒有說第一場跟第二場聽的人都很清楚我在講總預算的問題\n我就說 因為我在這裡講 委員有些聽不懂到那邊講 民 群眾 人民都聽得懂好 可是我要跟院長報告一次這樣的照片就是人民提供給我的他認為這樣是很不適當的請院長三思好 下一頁委員可以來現場拿一張反罷免的那也許也可以被拍成照片我們不要造成社會的衝突跟對立啊好不好我們在這裡做政策的宣導我們接受任何公開的好 那接下來我必須要講\n這個其實最近大家也討論很多尤其現在剛剛講的很多台鐵票價漲國道客運漲這些東西其實很重要的一個點是電力的問題那我們一直在跟其實我們一直在跟院長跟我們經濟部的郭部長也上來了\n在講說其實台電113年的稅前虧損高達411億元已經營運連三年虧損那今年114年台電孔繼續虧損那我們必須要講的是台113年的決算已經顯示了\n每度電的燃料成本已經大減20%為什麼台電還是繼續虧損呢根據清大的一個教授葉教授葉忠光的分析其實這我之前也跟院長報告過了其實問題就出在台電外購電力的價格遠高於台電自發電力的價格我們可以看到這一張在112年的時候\n台電燃煤的發電成本是3.4%基本上來講它都會加價跟我們的民營業者去買電它在112點的時候是加20%意思就是說它多給了民營電廠20%的獲利\n結果想不到113年的時候大家可以看到我們台電的自發電力只剩2.5代表就是因為國際燃油價格下降讓我們的台電的燃煤的發電成本比較少可是沒有想到台電居然跟我們的民營電廠買燃煤的時候加價變成34%\n這意思是什麼呢?當時我就請教很多台電的好朋友問他說是不是這個我們所有台電的這個外購的自營廠商他沒有去\n依照國際能源下降的部分去給台電相關應的節省這樣的成本所以顧名思義我要跟部長跟院長講的是難道台電就要用這樣的高價跟民營電廠買電嗎是不是可以請部長回答這個應該你要去看他們當初所訂下來的這個合約內容\n合約內容怎麼樣規範我想我們的國營機構他必須要按照訂約的內容去執行所以不一定是向委員所指證的是故意去加價去跟他買這合約上面所寫的我們必須要遵法所以我們會依照合約的內容去進行當然也許有委員所看到的這個現象不過這個我們回去以後會充分的檢討\n所以謝謝部長上次已經跟你報告過了我們希望說台電基本上盡量用自發的電力我們委託民營電廠的時候應該給他合理的利潤而不是讓這個民營電廠可以賺那麼多的錢那第二個我們來看看我剛也跟大家報告在113年的時候因為國際能源下降所以所有的這個台電的自力發電它的價格都比112年度的來低\n可是我們看到風力發電跟太陽能光電尤其是風力發電我們自發電力是4.4可是我們113年外購是6.59的成本我們這個加價了將近50%跟民營電廠來去收電費就是我要跟這個部長講的是說可以讓民營電廠賺那麼多錢嗎那我們後續可以得知的是\n我們了解這個台電的這個短購物價短購電費的這個整個的公式過去以來就是因為這些風力發電的民營業者他針對台電所提出的這些的電力的政策他不能接受所以就從103年以後就用了一個前10年跟後10年不同的電費收費的方式所以才早知台電去買一度的綠電\n有時候6塊錢甚至7塊錢這樣的狀況可是這個問題到108年以後因為台電的這個電力的政策改變了以後沒有人要跟台電做生意以及未來本席所擔心的是台電未來只能購買到昂貴的綠電等到這些綠電業者\n幫他過去天的前十年跟後十年他要到後十年要賣便宜的電的時候比如說一對電3.5、4塊的時候他那時候會跟台電回額就像剛剛郭部長講的他不會依照合約規定來走所以台電過去來講只能買到高額的綠電請問這個郭部長\n最近的這個牽引的廠商是104年即將在114年10年就要到期了請問他會不會繼續跟賣電給台電綠電業者會繼續賣電給台電嗎我們基本上要去看他們當初所訂的合約到底是怎麼樣我想我們政府一定就是要依法來這個進行他的這個這個合約的內容那所以如果這個委員您認為他是不合理的\n我們來考慮我們來還是要在法的框架下來尋求解決的辦法當然我現在在督導這個台電的時候我都跟他們講他要從各種的方式去考慮他的這個成本的競爭力如果我今天買的這個電價格比較高的話那我可以從其他的一樣的這個再生能源我可以從其他地方去買我不一定要跟他買\n它如果太貴我就不可能因為這個影響到我整個的台股的競爭力過去十年這些綠能業者就像之前跟您報告的這些綠能業者都賺飽飽一度店都賣到賣給台電六七塊\n結果現在10年到他們之前賣貴的電的時候已經結束了他們要賣便宜的電去做Balance的時候這些綠電業者通基本上都會跟台電選擇解約把這些電賣給外面的比如說大型的上數位公司來去賺取更多的電的這些收入那台電不是就變成\n這個這個冤大頭了嗎而且現在就我所知啦現在你們還在計算這個台電所稱的叫做分手費在計算的時候還沒有一個正確的公式來去來去做未來的這個檢討報告委員這個部分的話就表示他是違約的如果我們訂的約是20年\n那麼前面高後面低但是他後面不執行的話我想這個一定有可能我要請教一下那這樣可能部長這樣的分手會有算出來的嗎他可以違約不可能那違約我們應該是說這些違約業者無法違約嗎他有可能違約但是我們一定會處分他\n他一定會處分他可是處分他他是以利益為導向如果你處分他不夠重所以在這邊我也拜託部長是不是可以給他這個懲罰上的委員他的店是要透過我們台電的電網才有辦法賣給他想要賣的客人所以我就是不讓他執行的話他也沒辦法\n好那我希望部長因為現在整個台電跟民營業者這些綠電公司過去賺那麼多錢現在其實還沒有討論出了一個如何未來解約的一個公式跟計算方式那我也希望說部長可以拿出guards就像你講的應該用懲罰性的方式讓他們繼續跟台電合作來去賣便宜的綠電給台電讓台電不要虧損\n不然的話我們前十年已經供養他們那麼久了後十年連現在沒有辦法拿出Gas的話我認為台電只會繼續虧損了\n好所以在這邊我要跟院長跟部長講的我認為立法院他在114年的時候刪減掉給台電的補助一千億不是沒有道理我們是希望說不是不補貼台電這一千億是我們希望說過去台灣人民已經拿了三千億的納稅錢補助了台電原因是很單純就是因為能源\n現在戰爭的能源價格上漲那如果你現在在補貼台電你沒有一個正確能源政策難道不是把人民的納稅險這一千億拿去補貼綠電業者以及民間業者嗎報告員是這個樣子就是說我們當初為了要補助我們這個國內的國人用電所以我們一共花了六千億但是這個大院給我們只有三千億\n所以我們實際上還是有3000億所以我們在討論的時候我們在經濟委員會專業的經濟委員會裡面討論過的時候這1000億他只刪了30億但是我們來到大院以後整個被拿掉\n如果你們有提出更好可以解決我們立法院一些委員的問題的時候就像我講的我們不是不願意補助台電是因為不願意補助台電就像我講的用高價給民營業者或是高價買綠電而且未來只要台電這些綠電業者跟台電解約台電目前沒有辦法拿出一個對台電有利的解約方式報告委員我們的補助只是減少我們財務上面的負擔\n只是減少我們財務的負擔並不是來補助我們台電在運作上面的虧損我們講過了我們會再努力從我們現在的運作的方式包括我們的商業模式包括我們的這個創電的方式包括我們所有的行政包括我們的運籌模式從各方面來精進所以我們會努力但是我們在請大佑同意我們1000億是在\n消除我們過去補助同國人的這個財務的這個方面因為我們還是要去借錢我們要借錢來彌補所以那個利息的部分我們大概增加了好幾十億的這個利息所以如果大院給我們補助讓我們財務能夠更健全政府已經補貼台電利息也蠻多的好不好好不好我們就接下來講好那接下來齁需要說部長也還是要提出具體的政策跟立法院來報告好那我們下一頁\n好 接下來我們要請教院長的部分這是我一直很重視的一個問題我們台灣發展那麼多的綠電 綠能有關於這個太陽能板以及這個風力發電的這個大型的風液板其實現在在大家在台灣的認定說這些東西未來是台灣積極要做的事其實我們有認同可是我要跟院長報告的是過去從108年到113年過去六年來我們有五家的回收處理那個\n太陽能板的業者處理了將近一千噸公噸的太陽能板在未來的即將的七年即將會有一萬噸的廢棄的太陽能板再加七年十四年總共有十萬噸的廢棄的太陽能板\n可是現在讓人民沒辦法接受的是這樣我們的理解就是太陽能板應該是要可以回收的可是現在這五家處理業者他們不是做回收他們是做處理將近或者是報廢的這樣的舉動所以而且尤其是\n太陽能板過去有跟院長報告它過去就是因為這個玻璃跟這個EVA的這個膜它黏的痕跡沒有辦法分離所以我知道說現在環境部也積極在努力來做整個的太陽能板的一個處理可是到現在目前來講是沒有辦法處理的也沒有辦法回收的只能做報廢的這樣的動作是不是請院長或者是我們部長或\n可以來解釋一下 這樣子未來這麼多的廢棄物過去喔 尤其是過去除了這一千噸政府有補助的只有一百多噸沒有補助的 給這些回收業者的不曉得丟到哪裡去我收到消息啊 就是給一些民間業者拿去跟其他的玻璃業 全部混在一起拿去丟這樣子不會造成臺灣未來的這個整個的環保的而且垃圾的危機嗎\n報告委員我想我們update一下現在科技的狀況太陽能回收的話我們早就已經有看到這樣的一個問題所以工業技術研究院已經完全開發出來可以計轉處理太陽能廢棄物的技術\n好,謝謝部長。部長,為了了解中研院有去做這樣的事情,他也有不管是計轉或是做一些授權給相關的民間業者。可是就我了解,其實你會後是不是可以提供給我,現在是不是有在生產相關的產品?就我得知是完全沒有。\n而且現在整個政府單位其實也沒有辦法掌握有生產多少的狀況所以現在是沒有辦法生產的狀況所以就算中原業有在做如果沒有辦法生產\n報告委員其實第一個是我們國內的太陽能板是從2000年開始用到2010年是因為當時推動百萬陽光屋頂所以那時候開始多了很多我們是2018年19年才訂定等於是太陽能板必須要付那個費用清除處理的費用所以現在我們現在處理的是以前很舊的那目前來看的話的確因為那時候成本不符所以大概只能做這樣的用途\n但是因為現在有五家 未來還有幾家正在審核當中我們希望他們可以全循環的再利用因為那個裡面不是廢棄物是一個很好的資產 還可以再循環的所以目前現在還不是最高量的時候所以委員不用擔心預計是2039年是最高量的時候一年大概會有10萬噸的產出那我們預計現在的量可以到13萬噸所以委員這個問題不是很大\n謝謝彭部長那我們看下一張圖就這張圖這張圖是這個民間的業者給我的這張圖他說原本希望說現在環境部其實有在努力我們也知道也有補貼這些的回收業者一頓是兩萬三千塊可是想不到在我了解有很多民間業者跟我反映說這些回收業者拿到了補助我們看上一頁回收業者在上一頁\n太陽能這個光電廠設置了光電板了以後等它到了這個年限了以後會有請這個清除業者去清除然後環境部會收到這些繳費的太陽能光電業者的繳費資金以後來去做補貼清除業者\n那補貼完了以後會到處理機構就是我剛剛講這五家處理機構這五家處理機構一頓現在都拿這個政府兩萬三的這個補貼費然後政府有去集合可是沒有想到這個環境部的集合我不知道是環境部被騙了還是怎麼樣他的集合只是做一般就是做一個自治化的集合所以我們來看一下下兩個月拜託\n左邊這一頁是現代太陽能廢棄板這環境部給我的資料從處理前原本在一個光電板可以處理完以後分成兩種的玻璃一種是處理後玻璃碎質較多的或者是處理很乾淨的可是當這些回收頁子我剛剛講的現在的狀況\n就像我們所擔心的這些回收業者在處理完了以後它其實是交由一些民間業者比如說一些剝離廠叫他說因為量少拿去幫我順便回收丟掉\n那一些這些是一些沒有拿到補作業者有拿到補作業者他拿到的資料跟給環境部的完全不一樣他跟環境部說做的事很好可以清理得很乾淨可是他當他打給下游業者的時候他是拿給他的事這些下游業者這些要做真的去回收再利用的業者沒辦法接受資料所以這就是我要跟\n部長講的真實的情況是太陽能板的災血破碎料根本就沒有環境部所拿到的資料這麼樣的漂亮這些是在利用的業者\n私下給我的照片他說要拿現場的食物給我看所以拜託部長跟院長這個東西如果不提早來做的話會是台灣的能源跟生態的耗節這些東西都混在一般的玻璃業者因為量少塞進去拿去丟掉一起拿去丟掉好不好所以謝謝委員提供資料我們一定派人去查然後如果是違法的話我們一定會嚴懲\n所以拜託一下我希望部長下次查討的時候也通知我我們一起去看一看謝謝好下頁第二個另外一個也是我們覺得綠人政策的問題我們的大型的風機葉片你們知道台電光是台電我們的太陽能板跟風機葉片光是台電它有辦法處理嗎多少的閒置的在我們的台電裡面\n報告委員,據我的了解,因為這個大概現在只有幾十噸而已那目前來說的話,因為過去發生這個議題的時候環保局有去查,然後也有稽查那現在台電已經承諾放到他們的機房去了,不是裸露在外所以這個看到的景象已經不出現了那台電自己也承諾,因為這個東西一定要去做特別的處理的那這個都是早期\n很早很早的大概都是多少k瓦的很小的所以未來我們預計大量是2040年那目前我們的量能也都開始起來當然現在的處理技術還不好但是我所知道的其實風機的這個業片是可以再回收再利用再循環的這個都是我們期待可以做的\n好 謝謝院長所以我認為台灣要發展綠能政策我們都支持只是剛剛跟院長報告不要補助這些綠營業者可以補助可是加這麼多錢補助而且尤其是我們這樣的這個太陽能板我們的大型的風月完全沒有辦法處理的狀況台灣還一直努力而且做那麼大的計畫來去做這樣子的東西其實對台灣的整個未來的環境有非常嚴重的影響是的 政府有補助的政策\n接受政府的補貼就要遵照政府的規定否則我們一定嚴查嚴辦好 謝謝好 下一頁好 接下來我要請教有關於這個台積電的問題那台積電我相信很多委員有請教過這個院長跟部長\n3月4號美國總統川普跟台積電董事魏董事長共同宣布台積電在美國設廠投資金額高達1000億美金因為時間的關係我簡單問一下院長跟部長川普在3月9號的時候說加碼投資到2000億美金請問是真的嗎他應該是把之前的650億加上1000億加起來1650億\n所以你的意思是說他不是說他不是說這一千億要加碼到兩千億是過去的一千億加上之前已經提供已經投資六百五十億那差的三百五十億是他的加淨位法\n我們沒有辦法去評論一個外國的領袖他們所說的內容到底是什麼但是我想這個外界的報導或者各方面在講說一千億或者兩千億一千億這個是事實那之前的投資是六百五十億加上一千億那也許他我們沒有\n沒有必要去評論兩千億這件事情我跟委員報告台積電要投資到美積電這個錢要出去一定要經過經濟部的投審會許可這裡面投審會一定會把關\n一定會把握謝謝院長跟部長實現關係最後我還是要幫我們國人因為外資三大法人已經15年賣超了我們都很擔心台積電這樣子有點被美國半恐嚇式的投資美國投資台積電投資美國這樣的事情對於台灣整體的未來的就業我們產業的外流等等的這些東西我們還希望說部長跟院長可以提供一個報告給我們所有的委員讓我們可以來放心也讓國人來放心好嗎\n政府跟所有產業都會保持最好的\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:12.113 --> 00:18.360\n院長各位委員各位官員大家午安是有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選\n\n00:27.919 --> 00:54.169\n院長好院長再過兩個月賴總統跟您就即將就職滿週年那回顧去年113年度賴政府有三高這個院長跟您報告哪三高在113年的稅收新高是高達三兆7619億超增稅收新高稅收超增5283億\n\n00:57.431 --> 01:02.519\n114年度給政府的預算也是新高原本稅出編列3兆1325億三讀過的預算是2兆9249億\n\n01:09.969 --> 01:27.862\n所以跟院長報告你們是過去以來歷史上三高史上最高稅收超收稅高超徵最高也是預算最高的三高政府那政府收了這麼多人民的納稅錢人民也給了政府那麼多的預算\n\n01:28.883 --> 01:53.069\n我們今年可以看到萬物皆漲人民幣撥了好幾層的皮我們看到最近三年電價漲了40%台鐵的票價在今年的二月漲了26.8%客運業者國道客運漲了6%今年三月底水價也提出研議要調漲的報告\n\n01:55.430 --> 02:19.696\n所以我不想講可是我是不是認為賴清德政府是不是現在變成了漲價總統左院長所帶領的是三高預算新高的內閣我是不是可以請教我看到這樣的資料我非常的納悶因為今年的公務人員的加薪只有3%那我可以請教一下部長為何台鐵票價漲了26%國道客運也漲了6%\n\n02:23.854 --> 02:48.869\n要跟部長說明的是這些人會搭這些的通常都是上班族或者是這個學生公務人員都是一些比較需要搭乘的這些的人這樣子的上漲請問第一個造成物價整個上漲現在很多的這個菜籃族都跟我講現在拿一千塊去菜市場買東西\n\n02:50.830 --> 03:11.343\n過去有都可以買了很多收穫滿滿現在可能買了一些青菜買了一些肉就發現一千塊都不見了我想要先請教這個部長有上來請問漲價漲那麼多對人民如何解釋謝謝我覺得也不只山高啦我們經濟成長率也很高\n\n03:12.418 --> 03:23.601\n我們的GDP國家生產總額26兆也很高我們的股票也很高你可以繼續講沒事我認為針對問題我覺得民眾想要了解預算新高漲價也新高我認為說我認定在進步可是我必須對辛苦的蔡蘭族辛苦的很多的人民針對\n\n03:36.545 --> 03:49.771\n只有漲薪水不漲比如說公務員只漲3%台鐵為什麼漲了這麼多客運為什麼漲了那麼多您知道台鐵已經30年沒有漲票價了嗎我了解可是我還是要政府應該要來補貼這些辛苦的人我們率先前幾年就提出TPAS\n\n03:57.642 --> 04:10.026\n短程的固定的這些乘客用T-Bus對這些漲價對他影響是最少的而且我們T-Bus又有新的2.0版對常客又有一些新的規劃其實院長我都非常認同你說的\n\n04:13.027 --> 04:31.377\n可是我的建議就是說可不可以一次我認為漲超過3%的就是要還漲我不是說政府不能漲價可是你一次漲26%或是漲得比人民的加薪的幅度漲得多人民的痛苦指數就會增高就像你講的GDP成長也沒有成長20幾%\n\n04:33.238 --> 05:01.524\n所以我這一說院長我希望的是說可以苦民所苦我沒有說您準確或錯只是反映人民的心聲如果台鐵反映成本的話絕對不死漲這些幅度我們只要請部長認為他就是應該緩緩的漲調整到合理的票價就可以所以我認為成長百分之二十幾沒有說明原因來部長請說明你要說明原因其實說明了很多之後可以私下向您報告那你有沒有現在直接檢查好不好\n\n05:02.404 --> 05:26.656\n第一您剛剛所說的GDP只漲3%或者是薪水只漲3%但過去30年薪水漲了幾%您有算過嗎部長你要針對問題回答問你的是台鐵為什麼要漲票價你沒有回答你說過去到現在30年沒有漲它的成本已經成長非常多而且他們的薪資也調漲了意思就是說只要過去沒有漲的你就可以是漲那麼多那剛剛院長講的還漲你有聽清楚嗎\n\n05:28.847 --> 05:56.756\n院長說全市台鐵票價漲26%就造成人民的痛苦啊報告委員您大概很少搭台鐵也很少在通勤您不曉得現在只要用T-pass基本上是漲不到不管台鐵漲幾趴所以您的意思是說對通勤的民眾來說人民在台鐵票價漲二十幾趴人民無感覺得政府漲26%是OK的通勤的民眾不會受到影響您沒有在通勤所以您大概不曉得\n\n05:58.140 --> 06:03.000\n那個我跟等一下等一下主席稍等一下這樣子質詢的方式可以嗎\n\n06:03.843 --> 06:30.545\n沒問題,呼籲一下官員不要反諮詢好不好請委員諮詢之後再回答我是為了民眾來講,你講到我個人身上這就是非常不好的示範好不好好,那如果您不願意回答漲價的原因只要用過去的歷史漲價的原因我剛剛講很多了你要講的是漲價不是不是他的服務也必須要成長,在他的員工的薪水必須要成長你要講的原因是說你這樣子的漲價,人民就\n\n06:30.965 --> 06:51.072\n不會有感覺,然後你的意思是說台鐵就不會虧損嗎我會減少通勤民眾的衝擊,他們幾乎不會有衝擊到尤其現在有很多台鐵它的成本都一樣就是因為台鐵過去都沒有漲所以您當這個部長來,你看到這個問題就把這二三十年來的一起漲意思就是這樣,好,沒有,你有解釋我就可以了好,那我們看下一頁\n\n06:53.680 --> 07:17.721\n好所以我希望讓院長知道這個我不希望我們的總統變成漲價總統那卓榮泰院長是三高的內閣那現在這張圖片是民眾跟我檢舉傳給我的他說院長很辛苦現在台灣不管國際國內都遇到嚴重的這個一些影響他不希望說我們的院長在週末的時候是參加\n\n07:18.963 --> 07:32.259\n類似政治尤其是有相關罷免的宣講活動企圖要罷免在野黨的立委所以我拿到這張照片請院長你是不是覺得這張照片不是很適當\n\n07:33.857 --> 08:01.616\n這張照片加油很適當啊我的意思是說全民罷免這個舊章話這個章者這樣的照片適當嗎來聽的民眾他身上有什麼樣的標誌衣服他表達什麼意願我們尊重所有來參加活動的所以你的意思是說這個公務員員沒有這個遵守行政中立的這樣的做法我們絕對遵守行政中立那你請問你在場知不知道這是有關於相關罷免的活動我不是\n\n08:02.691 --> 08:30.443\n我們是做政策的宣導好那我會跟那個人民反映說你是做政策的宣導委員長在新北的那一場歡迎委員來現場聽到現場聽有沒有罷免的活動我們有沒有談到等一下院長我們都尊重人民尋死任何的權利可是我認為行政官員不應該參與這樣的活動而且人民應該要了解說這是怎麼樣的活動比如說你前一場活動就知道了你下一場活動如果還去的話\n\n08:31.423 --> 08:57.073\n我認為第一場活動你不知道那我們還可以這樣你的幕僚這麼多下一場如果還是這樣的活動我認為民主社會國家不應該行政首長來去參加這個去罷免在野黨立委意圖要就是我們努力想要監督政府的活動我認為如果有這樣的活動的話沒有我這是人民檢舉提供過的照片請院長深思我也沒有說第一場跟第二場聽的人都很清楚我在講總預算的問題\n\n08:58.433 --> 09:21.714\n我就說因為我在這裡講委員有些聽不懂到那邊講民群眾人民都聽得懂好可是我要跟院長報告一次這樣的照片就是人民提供給我的他認為這樣是很不適當的請院長三思好下一頁委員可以來現場拿一張反罷免的那也許也可以被拍成照片我們不要造成社會的衝突跟對立啊好不好我們在這裡做政策的宣導我們接受任何公開的好那接下來我必須要講\n\n09:23.574 --> 09:40.216\n這個其實最近大家也討論很多尤其現在剛剛講的很多台鐵票價漲國道客運漲這些東西其實很重要的一個點是電力的問題那我們一直在跟其實我們一直在跟院長跟我們經濟部的郭部長也上來了\n\n09:41.357 --> 09:46.063\n在講說其實台電113年的稅前虧損高達411億元已經營運連三年虧損那今年114年台電孔繼續虧損那我們必須要講的是台113年的決算已經顯示了\n\n09:59.218 --> 10:21.528\n每度電的燃料成本已經大減20%為什麼台電還是繼續虧損呢根據清大的一個教授葉教授葉忠光的分析其實這我之前也跟院長報告過了其實問題就出在台電外購電力的價格遠高於台電自發電力的價格我們可以看到這一張在112年的時候\n\n10:25.472 --> 10:36.081\n台電燃煤的發電成本是3.4%基本上來講它都會加價跟我們的民營業者去買電它在112點的時候是加20%意思就是說它多給了民營電廠20%的獲利\n\n10:43.007 --> 11:03.887\n結果想不到113年的時候大家可以看到我們台電的自發電力只剩2.5代表就是因為國際燃油價格下降讓我們的台電的燃煤的發電成本比較少可是沒有想到台電居然跟我們的民營電廠買燃煤的時候加價變成34%\n\n11:06.520 --> 11:15.997\n這意思是什麼呢?當時我就請教很多台電的好朋友問他說是不是這個我們所有台電的這個外購的自營廠商他沒有去\n\n11:17.503 --> 11:39.402\n依照國際能源下降的部分去給台電相關應的節省這樣的成本所以顧名思義我要跟部長跟院長講的是難道台電就要用這樣的高價跟民營電廠買電嗎是不是可以請部長回答這個應該你要去看他們當初所訂下來的這個合約內容\n\n11:41.744 --> 12:10.467\n合約內容怎麼樣規範我想我們的國營機構他必須要按照訂約的內容去執行所以不一定是向委員所指證的是故意去加價去跟他買這合約上面所寫的我們必須要遵法所以我們會依照合約的內容去進行當然也許有委員所看到的這個現象不過這個我們回去以後會充分的檢討\n\n12:11.768 --> 12:39.625\n所以謝謝部長上次已經跟你報告過了我們希望說台電基本上盡量用自發的電力我們委託民營電廠的時候應該給他合理的利潤而不是讓這個民營電廠可以賺那麼多的錢那第二個我們來看看我剛也跟大家報告在113年的時候因為國際能源下降所以所有的這個台電的自力發電它的價格都比112年度的來低\n\n12:40.438 --> 13:07.326\n可是我們看到風力發電跟太陽能光電尤其是風力發電我們自發電力是4.4可是我們113年外購是6.59的成本我們這個加價了將近50%跟民營電廠來去收電費就是我要跟這個部長講的是說可以讓民營電廠賺那麼多錢嗎那我們後續可以得知的是\n\n13:08.547 --> 13:33.281\n我們了解這個台電的這個短購物價短購電費的這個整個的公式過去以來就是因為這些風力發電的民營業者他針對台電所提出的這些的電力的政策他不能接受所以就從103年以後就用了一個前10年跟後10年不同的電費收費的方式所以才早知台電去買一度的綠電\n\n13:34.221 --> 13:53.530\n有時候6塊錢甚至7塊錢這樣的狀況可是這個問題到108年以後因為台電的這個電力的政策改變了以後沒有人要跟台電做生意以及未來本席所擔心的是台電未來只能購買到昂貴的綠電等到這些綠電業者\n\n13:55.892 --> 14:14.927\n幫他過去天的前十年跟後十年他要到後十年要賣便宜的電的時候比如說一對電3.5、4塊的時候他那時候會跟台電回額就像剛剛郭部長講的他不會依照合約規定來走所以台電過去來講只能買到高額的綠電請問這個郭部長\n\n14:17.694 --> 14:46.856\n最近的這個牽引的廠商是104年即將在114年10年就要到期了請問他會不會繼續跟賣電給台電綠電業者會繼續賣電給台電嗎我們基本上要去看他們當初所訂的合約到底是怎麼樣我想我們政府一定就是要依法來這個進行他的這個這個合約的內容那所以如果這個委員您認為他是不合理的\n\n14:47.864 --> 15:14.932\n我們來考慮我們來還是要在法的框架下來尋求解決的辦法當然我現在在督導這個台電的時候我都跟他們講他要從各種的方式去考慮他的這個成本的競爭力如果我今天買的這個電價格比較高的話那我可以從其他的一樣的這個再生能源我可以從其他地方去買我不一定要跟他買\n\n15:15.652 --> 15:28.458\n它如果太貴我就不可能因為這個影響到我整個的台股的競爭力過去十年這些綠能業者就像之前跟您報告的這些綠能業者都賺飽飽一度店都賣到賣給台電六七塊\n\n15:31.079 --> 15:50.886\n結果現在10年到他們之前賣貴的電的時候已經結束了他們要賣便宜的電去做Balance的時候這些綠電業者通基本上都會跟台電選擇解約把這些電賣給外面的比如說大型的上數位公司來去賺取更多的電的這些收入那台電不是就變成\n\n15:54.080 --> 16:11.929\n這個這個冤大頭了嗎而且現在就我所知啦現在你們還在計算這個台電所稱的叫做分手費在計算的時候還沒有一個正確的公式來去來去做未來的這個檢討報告委員這個部分的話就表示他是違約的如果我們訂的約是20年\n\n16:13.590 --> 16:32.589\n那麼前面高後面低但是他後面不執行的話我想這個一定有可能我要請教一下那這樣可能部長這樣的分手會有算出來的嗎他可以違約不可能那違約我們應該是說這些違約業者無法違約嗎他有可能違約但是我們一定會處分他\n\n16:34.175 --> 16:56.042\n他一定會處分他可是處分他他是以利益為導向如果你處分他不夠重所以在這邊我也拜託部長是不是可以給他這個懲罰上的委員他的店是要透過我們台電的電網才有辦法賣給他想要賣的客人所以我就是不讓他執行的話他也沒辦法\n\n16:56.502 --> 17:19.158\n好那我希望部長因為現在整個台電跟民營業者這些綠電公司過去賺那麼多錢現在其實還沒有討論出了一個如何未來解約的一個公式跟計算方式那我也希望說部長可以拿出guards就像你講的應該用懲罰性的方式讓他們繼續跟台電合作來去賣便宜的綠電給台電讓台電不要虧損\n\n17:21.124 --> 17:28.178\n不然的話我們前十年已經供養他們那麼久了後十年連現在沒有辦法拿出Gas的話我認為台電只會繼續虧損了\n\n17:31.104 --> 17:54.369\n好所以在這邊我要跟院長跟部長講的我認為立法院他在114年的時候刪減掉給台電的補助一千億不是沒有道理我們是希望說不是不補貼台電這一千億是我們希望說過去台灣人民已經拿了三千億的納稅錢補助了台電原因是很單純就是因為能源\n\n17:55.849 --> 18:23.788\n現在戰爭的能源價格上漲那如果你現在在補貼台電你沒有一個正確能源政策難道不是把人民的納稅險這一千億拿去補貼綠電業者以及民間業者嗎報告員是這個樣子就是說我們當初為了要補助我們這個國內的國人用電所以我們一共花了六千億但是這個大院給我們只有三千億\n\n18:25.256 --> 18:31.325\n所以我們實際上還是有3000億所以我們在討論的時候我們在經濟委員會專業的經濟委員會裡面討論過的時候這1000億他只刪了30億但是我們來到大院以後整個被拿掉\n\n18:40.782 --> 19:07.599\n如果你們有提出更好可以解決我們立法院一些委員的問題的時候就像我講的我們不是不願意補助台電是因為不願意補助台電就像我講的用高價給民營業者或是高價買綠電而且未來只要台電這些綠電業者跟台電解約台電目前沒有辦法拿出一個對台電有利的解約方式報告委員我們的補助只是減少我們財務上面的負擔\n\n19:08.820 --> 19:36.112\n只是減少我們財務的負擔並不是來補助我們台電在運作上面的虧損我們講過了我們會再努力從我們現在的運作的方式包括我們的商業模式包括我們的這個創電的方式包括我們所有的行政包括我們的運籌模式從各方面來精進所以我們會努力但是我們在請大佑同意我們1000億是在\n\n19:38.813 --> 20:07.105\n消除我們過去補助同國人的這個財務的這個方面因為我們還是要去借錢我們要借錢來彌補所以那個利息的部分我們大概增加了好幾十億的這個利息所以如果大院給我們補助讓我們財務能夠更健全政府已經補貼台電利息也蠻多的好不好好不好我們就接下來講好那接下來齁需要說部長也還是要提出具體的政策跟立法院來報告好那我們下一頁\n\n20:09.124 --> 20:36.729\n好接下來我們要請教院長的部分這是我一直很重視的一個問題我們台灣發展那麼多的綠電綠能有關於這個太陽能板以及這個風力發電的這個大型的風液板其實現在在大家在台灣的認定說這些東西未來是台灣積極要做的事其實我們有認同可是我要跟院長報告的是過去從108年到113年過去六年來我們有五家的回收處理那個\n\n20:37.449 --> 20:55.482\n太陽能板的業者處理了將近一千噸公噸的太陽能板在未來的即將的七年即將會有一萬噸的廢棄的太陽能板再加七年十四年總共有十萬噸的廢棄的太陽能板\n\n20:55.962 --> 21:10.038\n可是現在讓人民沒辦法接受的是這樣我們的理解就是太陽能板應該是要可以回收的可是現在這五家處理業者他們不是做回收他們是做處理將近或者是報廢的這樣的舉動所以而且尤其是\n\n21:10.959 --> 21:35.415\n太陽能板過去有跟院長報告它過去就是因為這個玻璃跟這個EVA的這個膜它黏的痕跡沒有辦法分離所以我知道說現在環境部也積極在努力來做整個的太陽能板的一個處理可是到現在目前來講是沒有辦法處理的也沒有辦法回收的只能做報廢的這樣的動作是不是請院長或者是我們部長或\n\n21:36.576 --> 22:03.374\n可以來解釋一下這樣子未來這麼多的廢棄物過去喔尤其是過去除了這一千噸政府有補助的只有一百多噸沒有補助的給這些回收業者的不曉得丟到哪裡去我收到消息啊就是給一些民間業者拿去跟其他的玻璃業全部混在一起拿去丟這樣子不會造成臺灣未來的這個整個的環保的而且垃圾的危機嗎\n\n22:04.876 --> 22:22.693\n報告委員我想我們update一下現在科技的狀況太陽能回收的話我們早就已經有看到這樣的一個問題所以工業技術研究院已經完全開發出來可以計轉處理太陽能廢棄物的技術\n\n22:27.434 --> 22:47.894\n好,謝謝部長。部長,為了了解中研院有去做這樣的事情,他也有不管是計轉或是做一些授權給相關的民間業者。可是就我了解,其實你會後是不是可以提供給我,現在是不是有在生產相關的產品?就我得知是完全沒有。\n\n22:48.655 --> 22:59.063\n而且現在整個政府單位其實也沒有辦法掌握有生產多少的狀況所以現在是沒有辦法生產的狀況所以就算中原業有在做如果沒有辦法生產\n\n23:00.577 --> 23:25.946\n報告委員其實第一個是我們國內的太陽能板是從2000年開始用到2010年是因為當時推動百萬陽光屋頂所以那時候開始多了很多我們是2018年19年才訂定等於是太陽能板必須要付那個費用清除處理的費用所以現在我們現在處理的是以前很舊的那目前來看的話的確因為那時候成本不符所以大概只能做這樣的用途\n\n23:26.306 --> 23:49.124\n但是因為現在有五家未來還有幾家正在審核當中我們希望他們可以全循環的再利用因為那個裡面不是廢棄物是一個很好的資產還可以再循環的所以目前現在還不是最高量的時候所以委員不用擔心預計是2039年是最高量的時候一年大概會有10萬噸的產出那我們預計現在的量可以到13萬噸所以委員這個問題不是很大\n\n23:51.185 --> 24:18.260\n謝謝彭部長那我們看下一張圖就這張圖這張圖是這個民間的業者給我的這張圖他說原本希望說現在環境部其實有在努力我們也知道也有補貼這些的回收業者一頓是兩萬三千塊可是想不到在我了解有很多民間業者跟我反映說這些回收業者拿到了補助我們看上一頁回收業者在上一頁\n\n24:20.796 --> 24:34.691\n太陽能這個光電廠設置了光電板了以後等它到了這個年限了以後會有請這個清除業者去清除然後環境部會收到這些繳費的太陽能光電業者的繳費資金以後來去做補貼清除業者\n\n24:37.975 --> 25:00.613\n那補貼完了以後會到處理機構就是我剛剛講這五家處理機構這五家處理機構一頓現在都拿這個政府兩萬三的這個補貼費然後政府有去集合可是沒有想到這個環境部的集合我不知道是環境部被騙了還是怎麼樣他的集合只是做一般就是做一個自治化的集合所以我們來看一下下兩個月拜託\n\n25:02.438 --> 25:18.894\n左邊這一頁是現代太陽能廢棄板這環境部給我的資料從處理前原本在一個光電板可以處理完以後分成兩種的玻璃一種是處理後玻璃碎質較多的或者是處理很乾淨的可是當這些回收頁子我剛剛講的現在的狀況\n\n25:21.596 --> 25:33.177\n就像我們所擔心的這些回收業者在處理完了以後它其實是交由一些民間業者比如說一些剝離廠叫他說因為量少拿去幫我順便回收丟掉\n\n25:34.315 --> 25:55.997\n那一些這些是一些沒有拿到補作業者有拿到補作業者他拿到的資料跟給環境部的完全不一樣他跟環境部說做的事很好可以清理得很乾淨可是他當他打給下游業者的時候他是拿給他的事這些下游業者這些要做真的去回收再利用的業者沒辦法接受資料所以這就是我要跟\n\n25:57.472 --> 26:08.977\n部長講的真實的情況是太陽能板的災血破碎料根本就沒有環境部所拿到的資料這麼樣的漂亮這些是在利用的業者\n\n26:11.912 --> 26:35.657\n私下給我的照片他說要拿現場的食物給我看所以拜託部長跟院長這個東西如果不提早來做的話會是台灣的能源跟生態的耗節這些東西都混在一般的玻璃業者因為量少塞進去拿去丟掉一起拿去丟掉好不好所以謝謝委員提供資料我們一定派人去查然後如果是違法的話我們一定會嚴懲\n\n26:36.577 --> 27:05.355\n所以拜託一下我希望部長下次查討的時候也通知我我們一起去看一看謝謝好下頁第二個另外一個也是我們覺得綠人政策的問題我們的大型的風機葉片你們知道台電光是台電我們的太陽能板跟風機葉片光是台電它有辦法處理嗎多少的閒置的在我們的台電裡面\n\n27:06.577 --> 27:30.169\n報告委員,據我的了解,因為這個大概現在只有幾十噸而已那目前來說的話,因為過去發生這個議題的時候環保局有去查,然後也有稽查那現在台電已經承諾放到他們的機房去了,不是裸露在外所以這個看到的景象已經不出現了那台電自己也承諾,因為這個東西一定要去做特別的處理的那這個都是早期\n\n27:30.929 --> 27:48.908\n很早很早的大概都是多少k瓦的很小的所以未來我們預計大量是2040年那目前我們的量能也都開始起來當然現在的處理技術還不好但是我所知道的其實風機的這個業片是可以再回收再利用再循環的這個都是我們期待可以做的\n\n27:49.328 --> 28:18.713\n好謝謝院長所以我認為台灣要發展綠能政策我們都支持只是剛剛跟院長報告不要補助這些綠營業者可以補助可是加這麼多錢補助而且尤其是我們這樣的這個太陽能板我們的大型的風月完全沒有辦法處理的狀況台灣還一直努力而且做那麼大的計畫來去做這樣子的東西其實對台灣的整個未來的環境有非常嚴重的影響是的政府有補助的政策\n\n28:19.184 --> 28:34.895\n接受政府的補貼就要遵照政府的規定否則我們一定嚴查嚴辦好謝謝好下一頁好接下來我要請教有關於這個台積電的問題那台積電我相信很多委員有請教過這個院長跟部長\n\n28:36.201 --> 28:58.067\n3月4號美國總統川普跟台積電董事魏董事長共同宣布台積電在美國設廠投資金額高達1000億美金因為時間的關係我簡單問一下院長跟部長川普在3月9號的時候說加碼投資到2000億美金請問是真的嗎他應該是把之前的650億加上1000億加起來1650億\n\n29:02.950 --> 29:17.097\n所以你的意思是說他不是說他不是說這一千億要加碼到兩千億是過去的一千億加上之前已經提供已經投資六百五十億那差的三百五十億是他的加淨位法\n\n29:18.722 --> 29:41.583\n我們沒有辦法去評論一個外國的領袖他們所說的內容到底是什麼但是我想這個外界的報導或者各方面在講說一千億或者兩千億一千億這個是事實那之前的投資是六百五十億加上一千億那也許他我們沒有\n\n29:42.642 --> 29:46.104\n沒有必要去評論兩千億這件事情我跟委員報告台積電要投資到美積電這個錢要出去一定要經過經濟部的投審會許可這裡面投審會一定會把關\n\n30:07.498 --> 30:34.759\n一定會把握謝謝院長跟部長實現關係最後我還是要幫我們國人因為外資三大法人已經15年賣超了我們都很擔心台積電這樣子有點被美國半恐嚇式的投資美國投資台積電投資美國這樣的事情對於台灣整體的未來的就業我們產業的外流等等的這些東西我們還希望說部長跟院長可以提供一個報告給我們所有的委員讓我們可以來放心也讓國人來放心好嗎\n\n30:35.419 --> 30:37.528\n政府跟所有產業都會保持最好的\n\n","segments":[{"start":12.113,"end":18.36,"text":"院長各位委員各位官員大家午安是有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選"},{"start":27.919,"end":54.169,"text":"院長好院長再過兩個月賴總統跟您就即將就職滿週年那回顧去年113年度賴政府有三高這個院長跟您報告哪三高在113年的稅收新高是高達三兆7619億超增稅收新高稅收超增5283億"},{"start":57.431,"end":62.519,"text":"114年度給政府的預算也是新高原本稅出編列3兆1325億三讀過的預算是2兆9249億"},{"start":69.969,"end":87.862,"text":"所以跟院長報告你們是過去以來歷史上三高史上最高稅收超收稅高超徵最高也是預算最高的三高政府那政府收了這麼多人民的納稅錢人民也給了政府那麼多的預算"},{"start":88.883,"end":113.069,"text":"我們今年可以看到萬物皆漲人民幣撥了好幾層的皮我們看到最近三年電價漲了40%台鐵的票價在今年的二月漲了26.8%客運業者國道客運漲了6%今年三月底水價也提出研議要調漲的報告"},{"start":115.43,"end":139.696,"text":"所以我不想講可是我是不是認為賴清德政府是不是現在變成了漲價總統左院長所帶領的是三高預算新高的內閣我是不是可以請教我看到這樣的資料我非常的納悶因為今年的公務人員的加薪只有3%那我可以請教一下部長為何台鐵票價漲了26%國道客運也漲了6%"},{"start":143.854,"end":168.869,"text":"要跟部長說明的是這些人會搭這些的通常都是上班族或者是這個學生公務人員都是一些比較需要搭乘的這些的人這樣子的上漲請問第一個造成物價整個上漲現在很多的這個菜籃族都跟我講現在拿一千塊去菜市場買東西"},{"start":170.83,"end":191.343,"text":"過去有都可以買了很多 收穫滿滿現在可能買了一些青菜 買了一些肉就發現一千塊都不見了我想要先請教 這個部長有上來請問漲價漲那麼多對人民如何解釋謝謝 我覺得也不只山高啦我們經濟成長率也很高"},{"start":192.418,"end":203.601,"text":"我們的GDP國家生產總額26兆也很高我們的股票也很高你可以繼續講沒事我認為針對問題我覺得民眾想要了解預算新高漲價也新高我認為說我認定在進步可是我必須對辛苦的蔡蘭族辛苦的很多的人民針對"},{"start":216.545,"end":229.771,"text":"只有漲 薪水不漲 比如說公務員只漲3%台鐵為什麼漲了這麼多 客運為什麼漲了那麼多您知道台鐵已經30年沒有漲票價了嗎我了解 可是我還是要 政府應該要來補貼這些辛苦的人我們率先前幾年就提出TPAS"},{"start":237.642,"end":250.026,"text":"短程的固定的這些乘客用T-Bus對這些漲價對他影響是最少的而且我們T-Bus又有新的2.0版對常客又有一些新的規劃其實院長我都非常認同你說的"},{"start":253.027,"end":271.377,"text":"可是我的建議就是說可不可以一次我認為漲超過3%的就是要還漲我不是說政府不能漲價可是你一次漲26%或是漲得比人民的加薪的幅度漲得多人民的痛苦指數就會增高就像你講的GDP成長也沒有成長20幾%"},{"start":273.238,"end":301.524,"text":"所以我這一說 院長我希望的是說可以苦民所苦我沒有說您準確或錯只是反映人民的心聲如果台鐵反映成本的話絕對不死漲這些幅度我們只要請部長認為他就是應該緩緩的漲調整到合理的票價就可以所以我認為成長百分之二十幾沒有說明原因來 部長請說明你要說明原因其實說明了很多之後可以私下向您報告那你有沒有現在直接檢查好不好"},{"start":302.404,"end":326.656,"text":"第一您剛剛所說的GDP只漲3%或者是薪水只漲3%但過去30年薪水漲了幾%您有算過嗎部長你要針對問題回答問你的是台鐵為什麼要漲票價你沒有回答你說過去到現在30年沒有漲它的成本已經成長非常多而且他們的薪資也調漲了意思就是說只要過去沒有漲的你就可以是漲那麼多那剛剛院長講的還漲你有聽清楚嗎"},{"start":328.847,"end":356.756,"text":"院長說全市台鐵票價漲26%就造成人民的痛苦啊報告委員您大概很少搭台鐵也很少在通勤您不曉得現在只要用T-pass基本上是漲不到不管台鐵漲幾趴所以您的意思是說對通勤的民眾來說人民在台鐵票價漲二十幾趴人民無感覺得政府漲26%是OK的通勤的民眾不會受到影響您沒有在通勤所以您大概不曉得"},{"start":358.14,"end":363,"text":"那個我跟等一下等一下主席稍等一下這樣子質詢的方式可以嗎"},{"start":363.843,"end":390.545,"text":"沒問題,呼籲一下官員不要反諮詢好不好請委員諮詢之後再回答我是為了民眾來講,你講到我個人身上這就是非常不好的示範好不好好,那如果您不願意回答漲價的原因只要用過去的歷史漲價的原因我剛剛講很多了你要講的是漲價不是不是他的服務也必須要成長,在他的員工的薪水必須要成長你要講的原因是說你這樣子的漲價,人民就"},{"start":390.965,"end":411.072,"text":"不會有感覺,然後你的意思是說台鐵就不會虧損嗎我會減少通勤民眾的衝擊,他們幾乎不會有衝擊到尤其現在有很多台鐵它的成本都一樣就是因為台鐵過去都沒有漲所以您當這個部長來,你看到這個問題就把這二三十年來的一起漲意思就是這樣,好,沒有,你有解釋我就可以了好,那我們看下一頁"},{"start":413.68,"end":437.721,"text":"好所以我希望讓院長知道這個我不希望我們的總統變成漲價總統那卓榮泰院長是三高的內閣那現在這張圖片是民眾跟我檢舉傳給我的他說院長很辛苦現在台灣不管國際國內都遇到嚴重的這個一些影響他不希望說我們的院長在週末的時候是參加"},{"start":438.963,"end":452.259,"text":"類似政治尤其是有相關罷免的宣講活動企圖要罷免在野黨的立委所以我拿到這張照片請院長你是不是覺得這張照片不是很適當"},{"start":453.857,"end":481.616,"text":"這張照片加油很適當啊我的意思是說全民罷免這個舊章話這個章者這樣的照片適當嗎來聽的民眾他身上有什麼樣的標誌衣服他表達什麼意願我們尊重所有來參加活動的所以你的意思是說這個公務員員沒有這個遵守行政中立的這樣的做法我們絕對遵守行政中立那你請問你在場知不知道這是有關於相關罷免的活動我不是"},{"start":482.691,"end":510.443,"text":"我們是做政策的宣導好 那我會跟那個人民反映說你是做政策的宣導委員長在新北的那一場 歡迎委員來現場聽到現場聽 有沒有罷免的活動我們有沒有談到等一下 院長我們都尊重人民尋死任何的權利可是我認為行政官員不應該參與這樣的活動而且人民應該要了解說這是怎麼樣的活動比如說你前一場活動就知道了你下一場活動如果還去的話"},{"start":511.423,"end":537.073,"text":"我認為第一場活動你不知道那我們還可以這樣你的幕僚這麼多下一場如果還是這樣的活動我認為民主社會國家不應該行政首長來去參加這個去罷免在野黨立委意圖要就是我們努力想要監督政府的活動我認為如果有這樣的活動的話沒有我這是人民檢舉提供過的照片請院長深思我也沒有說第一場跟第二場聽的人都很清楚我在講總預算的問題"},{"start":538.433,"end":561.714,"text":"我就說 因為我在這裡講 委員有些聽不懂到那邊講 民 群眾 人民都聽得懂好 可是我要跟院長報告一次這樣的照片就是人民提供給我的他認為這樣是很不適當的請院長三思好 下一頁委員可以來現場拿一張反罷免的那也許也可以被拍成照片我們不要造成社會的衝突跟對立啊好不好我們在這裡做政策的宣導我們接受任何公開的好 那接下來我必須要講"},{"start":563.574,"end":580.216,"text":"這個其實最近大家也討論很多尤其現在剛剛講的很多台鐵票價漲國道客運漲這些東西其實很重要的一個點是電力的問題那我們一直在跟其實我們一直在跟院長跟我們經濟部的郭部長也上來了"},{"start":581.357,"end":586.063,"text":"在講說其實台電113年的稅前虧損高達411億元已經營運連三年虧損那今年114年台電孔繼續虧損那我們必須要講的是台113年的決算已經顯示了"},{"start":599.218,"end":621.528,"text":"每度電的燃料成本已經大減20%為什麼台電還是繼續虧損呢根據清大的一個教授葉教授葉忠光的分析其實這我之前也跟院長報告過了其實問題就出在台電外購電力的價格遠高於台電自發電力的價格我們可以看到這一張在112年的時候"},{"start":625.472,"end":636.081,"text":"台電燃煤的發電成本是3.4%基本上來講它都會加價跟我們的民營業者去買電它在112點的時候是加20%意思就是說它多給了民營電廠20%的獲利"},{"start":643.007,"end":663.887,"text":"結果想不到113年的時候大家可以看到我們台電的自發電力只剩2.5代表就是因為國際燃油價格下降讓我們的台電的燃煤的發電成本比較少可是沒有想到台電居然跟我們的民營電廠買燃煤的時候加價變成34%"},{"start":666.52,"end":675.997,"text":"這意思是什麼呢?當時我就請教很多台電的好朋友問他說是不是這個我們所有台電的這個外購的自營廠商他沒有去"},{"start":677.503,"end":699.402,"text":"依照國際能源下降的部分去給台電相關應的節省這樣的成本所以顧名思義我要跟部長跟院長講的是難道台電就要用這樣的高價跟民營電廠買電嗎是不是可以請部長回答這個應該你要去看他們當初所訂下來的這個合約內容"},{"start":701.744,"end":730.467,"text":"合約內容怎麼樣規範我想我們的國營機構他必須要按照訂約的內容去執行所以不一定是向委員所指證的是故意去加價去跟他買這合約上面所寫的我們必須要遵法所以我們會依照合約的內容去進行當然也許有委員所看到的這個現象不過這個我們回去以後會充分的檢討"},{"start":731.768,"end":759.625,"text":"所以謝謝部長上次已經跟你報告過了我們希望說台電基本上盡量用自發的電力我們委託民營電廠的時候應該給他合理的利潤而不是讓這個民營電廠可以賺那麼多的錢那第二個我們來看看我剛也跟大家報告在113年的時候因為國際能源下降所以所有的這個台電的自力發電它的價格都比112年度的來低"},{"start":760.438,"end":787.326,"text":"可是我們看到風力發電跟太陽能光電尤其是風力發電我們自發電力是4.4可是我們113年外購是6.59的成本我們這個加價了將近50%跟民營電廠來去收電費就是我要跟這個部長講的是說可以讓民營電廠賺那麼多錢嗎那我們後續可以得知的是"},{"start":788.547,"end":813.281,"text":"我們了解這個台電的這個短購物價短購電費的這個整個的公式過去以來就是因為這些風力發電的民營業者他針對台電所提出的這些的電力的政策他不能接受所以就從103年以後就用了一個前10年跟後10年不同的電費收費的方式所以才早知台電去買一度的綠電"},{"start":814.221,"end":833.53,"text":"有時候6塊錢甚至7塊錢這樣的狀況可是這個問題到108年以後因為台電的這個電力的政策改變了以後沒有人要跟台電做生意以及未來本席所擔心的是台電未來只能購買到昂貴的綠電等到這些綠電業者"},{"start":835.892,"end":854.927,"text":"幫他過去天的前十年跟後十年他要到後十年要賣便宜的電的時候比如說一對電3.5、4塊的時候他那時候會跟台電回額就像剛剛郭部長講的他不會依照合約規定來走所以台電過去來講只能買到高額的綠電請問這個郭部長"},{"start":857.694,"end":886.856,"text":"最近的這個牽引的廠商是104年即將在114年10年就要到期了請問他會不會繼續跟賣電給台電綠電業者會繼續賣電給台電嗎我們基本上要去看他們當初所訂的合約到底是怎麼樣我想我們政府一定就是要依法來這個進行他的這個這個合約的內容那所以如果這個委員您認為他是不合理的"},{"start":887.864,"end":914.932,"text":"我們來考慮我們來還是要在法的框架下來尋求解決的辦法當然我現在在督導這個台電的時候我都跟他們講他要從各種的方式去考慮他的這個成本的競爭力如果我今天買的這個電價格比較高的話那我可以從其他的一樣的這個再生能源我可以從其他地方去買我不一定要跟他買"},{"start":915.652,"end":928.458,"text":"它如果太貴我就不可能因為這個影響到我整個的台股的競爭力過去十年這些綠能業者就像之前跟您報告的這些綠能業者都賺飽飽一度店都賣到賣給台電六七塊"},{"start":931.079,"end":950.886,"text":"結果現在10年到他們之前賣貴的電的時候已經結束了他們要賣便宜的電去做Balance的時候這些綠電業者通基本上都會跟台電選擇解約把這些電賣給外面的比如說大型的上數位公司來去賺取更多的電的這些收入那台電不是就變成"},{"start":954.08,"end":971.929,"text":"這個這個冤大頭了嗎而且現在就我所知啦現在你們還在計算這個台電所稱的叫做分手費在計算的時候還沒有一個正確的公式來去來去做未來的這個檢討報告委員這個部分的話就表示他是違約的如果我們訂的約是20年"},{"start":973.59,"end":992.589,"text":"那麼前面高後面低但是他後面不執行的話我想這個一定有可能我要請教一下那這樣可能部長這樣的分手會有算出來的嗎他可以違約不可能那違約我們應該是說這些違約業者無法違約嗎他有可能違約但是我們一定會處分他"},{"start":994.175,"end":1016.042,"text":"他一定會處分他可是處分他他是以利益為導向如果你處分他不夠重所以在這邊我也拜託部長是不是可以給他這個懲罰上的委員他的店是要透過我們台電的電網才有辦法賣給他想要賣的客人所以我就是不讓他執行的話他也沒辦法"},{"start":1016.502,"end":1039.158,"text":"好那我希望部長因為現在整個台電跟民營業者這些綠電公司過去賺那麼多錢現在其實還沒有討論出了一個如何未來解約的一個公式跟計算方式那我也希望說部長可以拿出guards就像你講的應該用懲罰性的方式讓他們繼續跟台電合作來去賣便宜的綠電給台電讓台電不要虧損"},{"start":1041.124,"end":1048.178,"text":"不然的話我們前十年已經供養他們那麼久了後十年連現在沒有辦法拿出Gas的話我認為台電只會繼續虧損了"},{"start":1051.104,"end":1074.369,"text":"好所以在這邊我要跟院長跟部長講的我認為立法院他在114年的時候刪減掉給台電的補助一千億不是沒有道理我們是希望說不是不補貼台電這一千億是我們希望說過去台灣人民已經拿了三千億的納稅錢補助了台電原因是很單純就是因為能源"},{"start":1075.849,"end":1103.788,"text":"現在戰爭的能源價格上漲那如果你現在在補貼台電你沒有一個正確能源政策難道不是把人民的納稅險這一千億拿去補貼綠電業者以及民間業者嗎報告員是這個樣子就是說我們當初為了要補助我們這個國內的國人用電所以我們一共花了六千億但是這個大院給我們只有三千億"},{"start":1105.256,"end":1111.325,"text":"所以我們實際上還是有3000億所以我們在討論的時候我們在經濟委員會專業的經濟委員會裡面討論過的時候這1000億他只刪了30億但是我們來到大院以後整個被拿掉"},{"start":1120.782,"end":1147.599,"text":"如果你們有提出更好可以解決我們立法院一些委員的問題的時候就像我講的我們不是不願意補助台電是因為不願意補助台電就像我講的用高價給民營業者或是高價買綠電而且未來只要台電這些綠電業者跟台電解約台電目前沒有辦法拿出一個對台電有利的解約方式報告委員我們的補助只是減少我們財務上面的負擔"},{"start":1148.82,"end":1176.112,"text":"只是減少我們財務的負擔並不是來補助我們台電在運作上面的虧損我們講過了我們會再努力從我們現在的運作的方式包括我們的商業模式包括我們的這個創電的方式包括我們所有的行政包括我們的運籌模式從各方面來精進所以我們會努力但是我們在請大佑同意我們1000億是在"},{"start":1178.813,"end":1207.105,"text":"消除我們過去補助同國人的這個財務的這個方面因為我們還是要去借錢我們要借錢來彌補所以那個利息的部分我們大概增加了好幾十億的這個利息所以如果大院給我們補助讓我們財務能夠更健全政府已經補貼台電利息也蠻多的好不好好不好我們就接下來講好那接下來齁需要說部長也還是要提出具體的政策跟立法院來報告好那我們下一頁"},{"start":1209.124,"end":1236.729,"text":"好 接下來我們要請教院長的部分這是我一直很重視的一個問題我們台灣發展那麼多的綠電 綠能有關於這個太陽能板以及這個風力發電的這個大型的風液板其實現在在大家在台灣的認定說這些東西未來是台灣積極要做的事其實我們有認同可是我要跟院長報告的是過去從108年到113年過去六年來我們有五家的回收處理那個"},{"start":1237.449,"end":1255.482,"text":"太陽能板的業者處理了將近一千噸公噸的太陽能板在未來的即將的七年即將會有一萬噸的廢棄的太陽能板再加七年十四年總共有十萬噸的廢棄的太陽能板"},{"start":1255.962,"end":1270.038,"text":"可是現在讓人民沒辦法接受的是這樣我們的理解就是太陽能板應該是要可以回收的可是現在這五家處理業者他們不是做回收他們是做處理將近或者是報廢的這樣的舉動所以而且尤其是"},{"start":1270.959,"end":1295.415,"text":"太陽能板過去有跟院長報告它過去就是因為這個玻璃跟這個EVA的這個膜它黏的痕跡沒有辦法分離所以我知道說現在環境部也積極在努力來做整個的太陽能板的一個處理可是到現在目前來講是沒有辦法處理的也沒有辦法回收的只能做報廢的這樣的動作是不是請院長或者是我們部長或"},{"start":1296.576,"end":1323.374,"text":"可以來解釋一下 這樣子未來這麼多的廢棄物過去喔 尤其是過去除了這一千噸政府有補助的只有一百多噸沒有補助的 給這些回收業者的不曉得丟到哪裡去我收到消息啊 就是給一些民間業者拿去跟其他的玻璃業 全部混在一起拿去丟這樣子不會造成臺灣未來的這個整個的環保的而且垃圾的危機嗎"},{"start":1324.876,"end":1342.693,"text":"報告委員我想我們update一下現在科技的狀況太陽能回收的話我們早就已經有看到這樣的一個問題所以工業技術研究院已經完全開發出來可以計轉處理太陽能廢棄物的技術"},{"start":1347.434,"end":1367.894,"text":"好,謝謝部長。部長,為了了解中研院有去做這樣的事情,他也有不管是計轉或是做一些授權給相關的民間業者。可是就我了解,其實你會後是不是可以提供給我,現在是不是有在生產相關的產品?就我得知是完全沒有。"},{"start":1368.655,"end":1379.063,"text":"而且現在整個政府單位其實也沒有辦法掌握有生產多少的狀況所以現在是沒有辦法生產的狀況所以就算中原業有在做如果沒有辦法生產"},{"start":1380.577,"end":1405.946,"text":"報告委員其實第一個是我們國內的太陽能板是從2000年開始用到2010年是因為當時推動百萬陽光屋頂所以那時候開始多了很多我們是2018年19年才訂定等於是太陽能板必須要付那個費用清除處理的費用所以現在我們現在處理的是以前很舊的那目前來看的話的確因為那時候成本不符所以大概只能做這樣的用途"},{"start":1406.306,"end":1429.124,"text":"但是因為現在有五家 未來還有幾家正在審核當中我們希望他們可以全循環的再利用因為那個裡面不是廢棄物是一個很好的資產 還可以再循環的所以目前現在還不是最高量的時候所以委員不用擔心預計是2039年是最高量的時候一年大概會有10萬噸的產出那我們預計現在的量可以到13萬噸所以委員這個問題不是很大"},{"start":1431.185,"end":1458.26,"text":"謝謝彭部長那我們看下一張圖就這張圖這張圖是這個民間的業者給我的這張圖他說原本希望說現在環境部其實有在努力我們也知道也有補貼這些的回收業者一頓是兩萬三千塊可是想不到在我了解有很多民間業者跟我反映說這些回收業者拿到了補助我們看上一頁回收業者在上一頁"},{"start":1460.796,"end":1474.691,"text":"太陽能這個光電廠設置了光電板了以後等它到了這個年限了以後會有請這個清除業者去清除然後環境部會收到這些繳費的太陽能光電業者的繳費資金以後來去做補貼清除業者"},{"start":1477.975,"end":1500.613,"text":"那補貼完了以後會到處理機構就是我剛剛講這五家處理機構這五家處理機構一頓現在都拿這個政府兩萬三的這個補貼費然後政府有去集合可是沒有想到這個環境部的集合我不知道是環境部被騙了還是怎麼樣他的集合只是做一般就是做一個自治化的集合所以我們來看一下下兩個月拜託"},{"start":1502.438,"end":1518.894,"text":"左邊這一頁是現代太陽能廢棄板這環境部給我的資料從處理前原本在一個光電板可以處理完以後分成兩種的玻璃一種是處理後玻璃碎質較多的或者是處理很乾淨的可是當這些回收頁子我剛剛講的現在的狀況"},{"start":1521.596,"end":1533.177,"text":"就像我們所擔心的這些回收業者在處理完了以後它其實是交由一些民間業者比如說一些剝離廠叫他說因為量少拿去幫我順便回收丟掉"},{"start":1534.315,"end":1555.997,"text":"那一些這些是一些沒有拿到補作業者有拿到補作業者他拿到的資料跟給環境部的完全不一樣他跟環境部說做的事很好可以清理得很乾淨可是他當他打給下游業者的時候他是拿給他的事這些下游業者這些要做真的去回收再利用的業者沒辦法接受資料所以這就是我要跟"},{"start":1557.472,"end":1568.977,"text":"部長講的真實的情況是太陽能板的災血破碎料根本就沒有環境部所拿到的資料這麼樣的漂亮這些是在利用的業者"},{"start":1571.912,"end":1595.657,"text":"私下給我的照片他說要拿現場的食物給我看所以拜託部長跟院長這個東西如果不提早來做的話會是台灣的能源跟生態的耗節這些東西都混在一般的玻璃業者因為量少塞進去拿去丟掉一起拿去丟掉好不好所以謝謝委員提供資料我們一定派人去查然後如果是違法的話我們一定會嚴懲"},{"start":1596.577,"end":1625.355,"text":"所以拜託一下我希望部長下次查討的時候也通知我我們一起去看一看謝謝好下頁第二個另外一個也是我們覺得綠人政策的問題我們的大型的風機葉片你們知道台電光是台電我們的太陽能板跟風機葉片光是台電它有辦法處理嗎多少的閒置的在我們的台電裡面"},{"start":1626.577,"end":1650.169,"text":"報告委員,據我的了解,因為這個大概現在只有幾十噸而已那目前來說的話,因為過去發生這個議題的時候環保局有去查,然後也有稽查那現在台電已經承諾放到他們的機房去了,不是裸露在外所以這個看到的景象已經不出現了那台電自己也承諾,因為這個東西一定要去做特別的處理的那這個都是早期"},{"start":1650.929,"end":1668.908,"text":"很早很早的大概都是多少k瓦的很小的所以未來我們預計大量是2040年那目前我們的量能也都開始起來當然現在的處理技術還不好但是我所知道的其實風機的這個業片是可以再回收再利用再循環的這個都是我們期待可以做的"},{"start":1669.328,"end":1698.713,"text":"好 謝謝院長所以我認為台灣要發展綠能政策我們都支持只是剛剛跟院長報告不要補助這些綠營業者可以補助可是加這麼多錢補助而且尤其是我們這樣的這個太陽能板我們的大型的風月完全沒有辦法處理的狀況台灣還一直努力而且做那麼大的計畫來去做這樣子的東西其實對台灣的整個未來的環境有非常嚴重的影響是的 政府有補助的政策"},{"start":1699.184,"end":1714.895,"text":"接受政府的補貼就要遵照政府的規定否則我們一定嚴查嚴辦好 謝謝好 下一頁好 接下來我要請教有關於這個台積電的問題那台積電我相信很多委員有請教過這個院長跟部長"},{"start":1716.201,"end":1738.067,"text":"3月4號美國總統川普跟台積電董事魏董事長共同宣布台積電在美國設廠投資金額高達1000億美金因為時間的關係我簡單問一下院長跟部長川普在3月9號的時候說加碼投資到2000億美金請問是真的嗎他應該是把之前的650億加上1000億加起來1650億"},{"start":1742.95,"end":1757.097,"text":"所以你的意思是說他不是說他不是說這一千億要加碼到兩千億是過去的一千億加上之前已經提供已經投資六百五十億那差的三百五十億是他的加淨位法"},{"start":1758.722,"end":1781.583,"text":"我們沒有辦法去評論一個外國的領袖他們所說的內容到底是什麼但是我想這個外界的報導或者各方面在講說一千億或者兩千億一千億這個是事實那之前的投資是六百五十億加上一千億那也許他我們沒有"},{"start":1782.642,"end":1786.104,"text":"沒有必要去評論兩千億這件事情我跟委員報告台積電要投資到美積電這個錢要出去一定要經過經濟部的投審會許可這裡面投審會一定會把關"},{"start":1807.498,"end":1834.759,"text":"一定會把握謝謝院長跟部長實現關係最後我還是要幫我們國人因為外資三大法人已經15年賣超了我們都很擔心台積電這樣子有點被美國半恐嚇式的投資美國投資台積電投資美國這樣的事情對於台灣整體的未來的就業我們產業的外流等等的這些東西我們還希望說部長跟院長可以提供一個報告給我們所有的委員讓我們可以來放心也讓國人來放心好嗎"},{"start":1835.419,"end":1837.528,"text":"政府跟所有產業都會保持最好的"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":629,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（17時18分）院長、各位委員、各位官員，大家午安。是不是有請卓院長？"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：張委員好。"],["張委員智倫：院長好。院長，再過兩個月，賴總統跟您即將就職滿週年，回顧去年113年度，賴政府有三高。院長，我跟您報告有哪三高：第一高是113年的稅收創新高，高達3兆7,619億；第二高是超徵稅收新高，稅收超徵5,283億；第三高是114年度中央政府的總預算也是新高，原本歲出編列3兆1,325億，三讀過的預算是2兆9,249億。所以，跟院長報告，你們是過去以來歷史上三高，史上稅收最高、稅收超徵最高，也是預算最高的三高政府。","政府收了這麼多人民的納稅錢，人民也給了政府那麼多的預算，我們今年可以看到萬物皆漲，人民被剝了好幾層的皮。我們看到最近三年電價漲了40%，臺鐵的票價在今年的2月漲了26.8%，國道客運業漲了6%，今年3月底，水價也提出研議要調漲的報告，所以我不想講啦，可是我是不是可以認為賴清德政府是不是現在變成了漲價總統？卓院長所帶領的是三高、預算新高的內閣？我是不是可以請教，看到這樣的資料我非常的納悶，因為今年公務人員加薪只有3%，那我可不可以請教一下部長，為何臺鐵票價漲了26%，國道客運也漲了6%？要跟部長說明的是，會搭這些的通常都是上班族，或者是學生、公務人員，都是一些比較需要搭乘的人，而這樣子的上漲，第一個，會造成物價整個上漲，現在很多的菜籃族都跟我講，現在拿1,000塊去菜市場買東西，過去都可以買很多，收穫滿滿，現在可能買了一些青菜、買了一些肉就發現1,000塊都不見了，我想要先請教，請問漲價漲那麼多，要對人民如何解釋？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。我覺得也不只三高啦，我們經濟成長率也很高，我們的GDP、國家生產總額26兆也很高。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的股票也很高，你可以繼續講，可以講到十高。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝院長，沒事，我認為針對問題，我覺得民眾想要了解的是……"],["卓院長榮泰：我是要提醒你，經濟在進步……"],["張委員智倫：預算新高、漲價也新高，我認定在進步，可是我必須對辛苦的菜籃族、很多辛苦的人民，針對薪水不漲，比如說公務人員只漲了3%，臺鐵為什麼漲了這麼多？客運為什麼漲了那麼多？"],["卓院長榮泰：您知道臺鐵已經30年沒有漲票價嗎？"],["張委員智倫：我了解，可是我還是必須要講……"],["卓院長榮泰：今年調的幅度……"],["張委員智倫：政府應該要來補貼這些辛苦的人。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們率先在前幾年就提出TPASS，短程的、固定的這些乘客用TPASS，這些漲價對他的影響是最少的，而且我們TPASS又有新的2.0版，對常客又有一些新的規劃，所以影響是小的。"],["張委員智倫：院長，我都非常認同你說的，可是我的建議就是說，可不可以一次……我認為漲超過3%的就是要緩漲，不是說政府不能漲價，可是你一次漲26%，或是漲得比人民加薪的幅度多，人民的痛苦指數就會增高，就像你講的，GDP成長也沒有成長百分之二十幾，所以院長，我希望的是可以苦民所苦，我沒有說您正確或錯，只是要反映人民的心聲。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果臺鐵有反映成本的話，絕對不只漲這些幅度，我們認為它就是應該緩緩的漲，調整到合理的票價就可以了。"],["張委員智倫：對，所以我認為成長百分之二十幾，沒有說明原因，好，部長請說明，您要說明。"],["陳部長世凱：原因其實說明了很多，之後可以私下向您報告……"],["張委員智倫：那你現在直接簡答好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：第一，您剛剛所說的GDP只漲3%，或者是薪水只漲3%，但過去30年薪水漲了幾%，您有算過嗎？"],["張委員智倫：部長，你要針對問題回答，我問你的是臺鐵為什麼要漲票價，你沒有回答，你說過去到現在……"],["陳部長世凱：30年沒有漲，它的成本已經成長非常多，而且他們的薪資也調漲了。"],["張委員智倫：意思就是說，只要過去沒有漲的，你可以一次漲那麼多？那剛剛院長講的緩漲，您有聽清楚嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：院長……"],["張委員智倫：院長說……"],["卓院長榮泰：它如果要反映成本的話，它已經不是在全額反映成本了。"],["張委員智倫：你一次漲了26%就造成人民的痛苦啊！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您大概很少搭臺鐵，也很少在通勤，您不曉得現在只要用TPASS，基本上是漲不到，不管臺鐵漲幾%……"],["張委員智倫：所以你的意思是說……"],["陳部長世凱：對通勤的民眾來說……"],["張委員智倫：人民在臺鐵票價漲了百分之二十幾，人民無感，覺得政府漲26%是OK的？"],["陳部長世凱：通勤的民眾不會受到影響，您沒有在通勤，所以你大概不曉得。"],["張委員智倫：等一下、等一下，主席，這樣子質詢的方式可以嗎？"],["主席：沒問題，呼籲一下官員，不要反質詢好不好？請委員質詢之後再回答。"],["張委員智倫：我是為了民眾來講，你講到我個人身上，這就是非常不好的示範，好不好？如果您不願意回答漲價的原因，只要用過去的歷史……"],["陳部長世凱：漲價的原因我剛剛講很多了。"],["張委員智倫：你要漲的是漲價……"],["陳部長世凱：它的成本不斷在成長。"],["張委員智倫：不是、不是……"],["陳部長世凱：它的服務也必須要成長，再來，員工的薪水……"],["張委員智倫：你要漲的原因是說，你這樣子漲價，人民就不會有感覺，然後你的意思是臺鐵就不會虧損嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：會減少通勤民眾的衝擊，他們幾乎不會有衝擊到，尤其現在透過TPASS……"],["張委員智倫：所以這個原因就是因為臺鐵過去都沒有漲，所以您當部長，你看到這個問題，就把這二、三十年來的一起漲，意思就是這樣，好，你有解釋就可以了。所以我希望讓院長知道，我不希望我們的總統變成漲價總統、卓榮泰院長是三高的內閣，現在這張圖片是民眾跟我檢舉傳給我的。他說院長很辛苦，現在臺灣不管國際、國內都遇到嚴重的一些影響，他不希望我們的院長在週末的時候，是參加類似政治，尤其是有相關罷免宣講的活動，企圖要罷免在野黨的立委，所以我拿到這張照片，院長，你是不是覺得這張照片不是很適當？"],["卓院長榮泰：這張照片上面的「加油」很適當。"],["張委員智倫：我的意思是這上面有「全民罷免救彰化」，這樣的照片適當嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：來聽的民眾，他身上有什麼樣的標誌、衣服，他要表達什麼意願，我們尊重所有來參加活動的……"],["張委員智倫：所以你的意思是，公務人員沒有遵守行政中立這樣的……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們絕對遵守行政中立……"],["張委員智倫：那請問你在場知不知道這是有關於相關罷免的活動？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我們是做政策的宣導。"],["張委員智倫：好，我會跟那個人民反映，說你是做政策宣導。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，有一場在新北，那一場也歡迎委員來現場聽。"],["張委員智倫：到現場聽有沒有罷免的活動。"],["卓院長榮泰：看我們有沒有談到類似的話題……"],["張委員智倫：等一下。我們都尊重人民行使任何的權利，可是我認為行政官員不應該參與這樣的活動。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你可以來現場拿一支「反罷免」的牌子啊！"],["張委員智倫：你應該了解這是怎麼樣的活動，比如說你前一場活動就知道了，你下一場活動如果還去的話。我認為第一場活動你不知道，那我們還可以這樣，你的幕僚這麼多，下一場如果還是這樣的活動，我認為民主社會國家的行政首長不應該去參加這個有罷免在野黨立委意圖的活動，我們努力想要監督政府……"],["卓院長榮泰：剛好相反。"],["張委員智倫：如果有這樣的活動的話，這是人民檢舉提供給我的照片。"],["卓院長榮泰：剛好相反。"],["張委員智倫：請院長深思，我也沒有說你……"],["卓院長榮泰：第一場跟第二場聽的人都很清楚我在講總預算的問題，因為我在這裡講，委員有些聽不懂；到那邊講，人民群眾都聽得懂。"],["張委員智倫：可是我要跟院長報告的是，這一張照片就是人民提供給我的，他認為這樣是很不適當的，請院長三思。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員可以來現場拿一個反罷免的牌子，也許也可以被拍成照片。"],["張委員智倫：我們不要造成社會的衝突跟爭議，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在這裡做政策的宣導，我們接受任何公開……"],["張委員智倫：接下來我必須要講，其實最近大家也討論了很多，尤其剛剛講很多臺鐵票價漲、國道客運漲，這些東西其實很重要的一個點是電力問題，其實我們一直在跟院長、經濟部的郭部長講，其實台電113年的稅前虧損高達411億元，營運已經連3年虧損，今（114）年台電恐繼續虧損，我們必須要講的是，113年的決算顯示每度電的燃料成本已經大減20%，為什麼台電還是繼續虧損呢？根據清大葉宗洸教授的分析，我之前也跟院長報告過了，其實問題就出在台電外購電力的價格遠高於台電自發電力的價格。在112年的時候台電燃煤的發電成本是3.4，基本上它都會加價跟民營業者去買電，在112年的時候是加20%，意思就是它多給了民營電廠20%的獲利，結果想不到113年的時候，台電的自發電力只剩2.5，代表因為國際燃油價格下降，讓我們台電燃煤的發電成本比較少，可是沒有想到台電居然跟民營電廠買燃煤的時候，加價變成34%，這意思是什麼？當時我就請教很多台電的好朋友，問他是不是我們所有台電外購的自營廠商，它沒有依照國際能源下降的部分，去給台電相應的節省成本。所以顧名思義，我要跟部長、院長講的是，難道台電就要用這樣的高價跟民營電廠買電嗎？是不是可以請部長回答？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個你應該要去看他們當初所訂下來的合約內容，合約內容怎麼樣規範，我想我們的國營機構必須要按照訂約的內容去執行，所以不一定是像委員所指正的，是故意加價去跟它買，這合約上面所寫的，我們必須要遵法，所以我們依照合約的內容去進行，當然也許有委員所看到的這個現象，這個我們回去以後會充分的檢討。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝部長，上次已經跟你報告過了，我們希望台電基本上儘量用自發的電力，我們委託民營電廠的時候應該給它合理的利潤，而不是讓民營電廠可以賺那麼多的錢。","第二、我們來看看，我剛剛也跟大家報告，在113年的時候因為國際能源價格下降，所以所有的台電自力發電的價格都比112年度來得低，可是我們看到風力發電和太陽能光電，尤其是風力發電，台電自發電力是4.4元，可是113年外購的成本是6.59元，加價將近50%跟民營電廠收電。我要跟部長講的是，可以讓民營電廠賺那麼多錢嗎？後續我們了解了台電的躉購電費公式，過去就是因為這些風力發電的民營業者不能接受台電所提出的電力政策，從103年以後就用了一個前10年跟後10年不同的收費方式，才導致台電買一度的綠電有時候要用6塊錢甚至7塊錢這樣的狀況。可是這個問題到108年以後，因為台電的電力政策改變了以後，沒有人要跟台電做生意，本席擔心的是，台電未來只能購買到昂貴的綠電，因為前10年跟後10年價格不一樣，等到後10年這些綠電業者要賣台電便宜的電的時候，比如一度電3.5、4塊的時候，他們就會跟台電毀約，就像剛剛郭部長講的，它不會依照合約來走，所以台電只能買到高額的綠電。請問郭部長，最近簽約的廠商是104年，合約即將在114年屆滿10年，就要到期了，請問綠電業者會繼續賣電給台電嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們基本上要去看當初所訂的合約到底是怎麼樣，我想政府一定要依法來進行，遵守合約的內容，如果委員認為它是不合理的，我們來考慮，但還是要在法的框架下來尋求解決的辦法。我現在在督導台電的時候，我就跟他們講，他們要用各種方式去考慮他們成本的競爭力，如果今天買的電價格比較高的話，那就可以從其他的地方去買一樣的再生能源，不一定要跟某個廠商買，如果它太貴，就不可能跟它買，因為這會影響到整個台電的競爭力。"],["張委員智倫：部長，我現在的意思是，就像之前跟您報告的，過去10年這些綠能業者都賺飽飽，一度電都賣給台電6、7塊，現在10年到了，他們之前賣貴的電的時間已經結束了，他們要賣便宜的電去balance的時候，這些綠電業者基本上都會選擇跟台電解約，把這些電賣給外面比如大型的上市櫃公司，去賺取更多的收入，那台電不就變成冤大頭了嗎？而且現在就我所知，現在你們還在計算台電所稱的「分手費」，在計算的時候還沒有一個正確的公式去檢討。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個部分就表示它是違約的，如果我們訂的約是20年，前面高、後面低，但是它後面不執行的話，我想這個一定有……"],["張委員智倫：部長，我要請教一下，這樣的「分手費」有算出來了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不可能在法令之下它可以違約，不可能！違約……"],["張委員智倫：你的意思是說這些綠電業者無法違約嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不，它有可能違約，但是我們一定會處分它。"],["張委員智倫：它是以利益為導向，如果你處分它不夠重，所以在這邊我也拜託部長，是不是可以要求它付懲罰性的違約金？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["張委員智倫：我必須跟部長講……"],["郭部長智輝：它的電是要透過我們台電的電網才有辦法賣給它想要賣的客人，所以我就是不讓它執行的話也沒辦法。"],["張委員智倫：好，因為台電跟民營業者這些綠電公司，他們過去賺那麼多錢，現在其實還沒有討論出如何未來解約的一個公式和計算方式，我也希望部長可以拿出guts，就像你講的應該用懲罰性的方式，讓他們繼續跟台電合作，賣便宜的綠電給台電，讓台電不要虧損。不然的話，我們前10年已經供養他們那麼久了，後10年現在部長沒有辦法拿出guts的話，我認為台電只會繼續虧損。","所以在這邊我要跟院長及部長講，我認為立法院在114年的時候刪減掉給台電的補助1,000億不是沒有道理，我們不是不補貼台電這1,000億，而是過去臺灣人民已經拿了3,000億的納稅錢補助了台電，原因很單純，就是因為烏俄戰爭而能源價格上漲，如果你現在再補貼台電，你沒有一個正確的能源政策，難道不是把人民這1,000億的納稅錢拿去補貼綠電業者以及民間業者嗎？部長可以回答嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，是這個樣子，我們當初為了要補助國內的國人用電，所以我們一共花了6,000億，但是大院給我們只有3,000億，因此我們實際上還是有3,000億。所以在討論的時候，我們在專業的經濟委員會裡面討論過，這1,000億它只刪了30億，但是我們來到大院以後整個被拿掉。"],["張委員智倫：如果你們有提出更好的，比如可以解決立法院一些委員的問題的話，就像我講的，我們不是不願意補助台電，就像我講的，是因為不願意補助台電用高價給民營業者或是高價買綠電，而且未來只要這些綠電業者跟台電解約，台電目前沒有辦法拿出一個對台電有利的解約方式。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，補助只是減少我們財務上面的負擔，只是減少我們財務的負擔，並不是補助台電在運作上面的虧損。我們講過了，我們會再努力，從我們現在運作的方式，包括我們的商業模式，包括我們創電的方式，包括我們所有的行政，包括我們的運籌模式，從各方面精進，所以我們會努力，但是我請大院同意……"],["張委員智倫：你們努力的方式……"],["郭部長智輝：給我們的1,000億是在消除過去補助國人的財務這方面，因為我們還是要去借錢，要借錢來彌補，那個利息的部分大概增加了好幾十億的利息，所以如果大院給我們補助，讓我們財務能夠更健全……"],["張委員智倫：政府已經補貼台電的利息也蠻多的。好不好？我們就接下來講，我們希望部長還是要提出具體的政策跟立法院報告。","接下來我們要請教院長的部分，這是我一直很重視的一個問題，臺灣發展那麼多的綠電、綠能，有關於太陽能板以及風力發電的大型風葉板，其實現在大家在臺灣的認定是，這些東西未來是臺灣積極要做的事，我們也認同。可是我要跟院長報告，過去從108年到113年，過去6年來，我們有5家回收處理太陽能板的業者處理了將近1,000公噸的太陽能板，未來7年即將會有1萬噸的廢棄太陽能板，再加7年，14年後總共有10萬噸廢棄的太陽能板。","現在讓人民沒辦法接受的是，在我們的理解就是太陽能板應該是可以回收的，可是現在這5家處理業者不是做回收，他們是做處理或者報廢這樣的舉動。尤其是太陽能板在過去，我跟院長報告，它過去就是因為玻璃和EVA膜黏得很緊沒有辦法分離，我知道現在環境部也積極在努力做整個太陽能板的處理，可是到現在，目前來講是沒有辦法處理，也沒有辦法回收，只能做報廢的動作。是不是請院長或者部長可以解釋一下，未來這麼多的廢棄物，尤其是過去處理的這1,000噸，政府有補助的只有一百多噸，沒有補助的、給這些回收業者的不曉得丟到哪裡去。根據我收到的消息，就是給一些民間業者跟其他的玻璃業廢棄物全部混在一起拿去丟，這樣子不會造成臺灣未來整個環保和垃圾的危機嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：技術的進步如何來處理，請部長回答一下。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想我們update一下現在的科技狀況，太陽能廢棄物回收的部分，我們早就有看到這樣一個問題，所以工業技術研究院已經完全開發出來、可以技轉處理太陽能廢棄物的技術。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長。","部長，我們也瞭解工研院有去做這樣的事情，不管是技轉或是提供一些授權給相關的民間業者，你們會後是不是可以提供給我，現在是不是有在生產相關的產品？因為就我得知是完全沒有，而且現在政府單位其實也沒有辦法掌握生產多少的狀況，所以現在是沒有辦法生產的狀況，就算工研院有在做，也沒有辦法生產。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實第一個是，國內的太陽能板是從2000年開始用，2010年是因為當時推動百萬陽光屋頂，所以那個時候開始多了很多。我們是2018年、2019年才規定裝設太陽能板必須付清除處理的費用，所以我們現在處理的是以前很舊的。目前來看的話，的確，因為那個時候不敷成本，所以大概只能做這樣的用途。但是因為現在有5家，未來還有幾家正在審核當中，我們希望他們可以做到全循環再利用，因為那個裡面不是廢棄物，而是一個很好的資材、還可以再循環的，包含郭部長講的……"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：現在還不是最高量的時候，所以委員不用擔心，預計2039年是最高量的時候，一年大概會有10萬噸的產出，我們預計現在的量可以到13萬噸，所以委員，這個問題不是很大。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝彭部長。","我們現在來看下一張圖。這張圖是民間業者給我的，他們知道現在環境部其實有在努力，也有補貼回收業者一噸2萬4,000塊，可是想不到我去瞭解之後，有很多民間業者跟我反映說，太陽能光電廠設置光電板，到了年限以後，會請清除業者去清除，環境部收到太陽能光電業者繳給基金的費用以後，會去補貼清除業者。補貼完了以後會到處理機構，就是我剛剛講的這5家處理機構，這5家處理機構現在一噸都拿政府2萬4的補貼費，然後政府有去稽核，可是沒有想到環境部的稽核，我不知道是環境部被騙了還是怎麼樣？他們的稽核只是做一個制式的稽核。","所以我們來看一下這張圖片，左邊的部分是現在環境部給我的太陽能廢棄板的資料，從處理前原本是這樣一個光電板，處理完以後可以分成兩種玻璃，一種是處理後雜質較多的，另一種是可以處理得很乾淨的。可是我剛剛講了，現在的狀況就像我們所擔心的，這些回收業者在處理完以後，其實是交由一些民間業者，比如說一些玻璃廠，跟他們說因為量少，順便拿去幫我回收、丟掉。這些是沒有拿到補助的業者。至於有拿到補助的業者，他拿到的資料跟給環境部的完全不一樣！他跟環境部說可以做得很好、清理得很乾淨，可是當他拿給下游業者的時候，是這些真的要回收再利用的業者沒辦法接受的資料，所以這是我要跟部長講的。真實的情況是太陽能板的拆解破碎料根本就沒有環境部所拿到的資料這麼樣的漂亮！這些是再利用的業者私下給我的照片，他還說要拿現場的實物給我看。","所以拜託部長跟院長，這個東西如果不提早來做的話，會是臺灣的能源跟生態的浩劫，這些東西都混在一般玻璃業者的廢棄物裡面，因為量少，塞進去，一起拿去丟掉。好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員提供資料，我們一定派人去查，如果違法的話，我們一定會嚴懲。"],["張委員智倫：所以拜託一下部長，下次查廠的時候也通知我，我們一起去看一看。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["張委員智倫：第二個，另外一個也是綠能政策的問題，我們的太陽能板跟大型的風機葉片，光是台電有辦法處理嗎？多少閒置在台電裡面？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，據我的了解，因為這個大概現在只有幾十噸而已，以目前來說，因為過去發生這個議題的時候，環保局有去查，也有稽查，現在台電已經承諾放到他們的機房去了，不是裸露在外，所以看到的景象已經不出現了，台電自己也承諾，因為這個東西一定要去做特別的處理，這個都是早期很早、很早的，大概都是多少KW的，很小的，所以未來我們預計大量是2040年，目前我們的量能也都開始起來，當然現在的處理技術還不好，但是我所知道的，其實風機的葉片是可以再回收、再利用、再循環的，這都是我們期待可以做的。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝院長。所以我認為臺灣要發展綠能政策，我們都支持，只是如同剛剛跟院長報告的，綠電業者可以補助，可是加這麼多錢補助，而且尤其是我們現在的太陽能板、大型的風葉完全沒有辦法處理的狀況，臺灣還一直努力而且用那麼大的計畫去做這樣子的東西，其實對臺灣整個未來的環境有非常嚴重的影響。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，政府有補助的政策，接受政府的補貼，就要遵照政府的規定，否則我們一定嚴查嚴辦。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝。接下來我要請教有關於台積電的問題，台積電的問題我相信很多委員有請教過院長跟部長了。3月4日美國總統川普跟台積電魏董事長共同宣布台積電在美國設廠，投資金額高達1,000億美金，因為時間的關係，我簡單問一下院長跟部長，川普在3月9日說加碼投資到2,000億美金，請問是真的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：他應該是把之前的650億，加上1,000億，加起來1,650億啦。"],["張委員智倫：所以你的意思是，他不是說這1,000億要加碼到2,000億，而是過去的1,000億加上之前已經提供……"],["卓院長榮泰：650億。"],["張委員智倫：已經投資了650億，差的350億是他的進位法？"],["郭部長智輝：我們沒有辦法去評論一個外國的領袖所說的內容到底是什麼，但是我想外電的報導或者各方面在講1,000億或者2,000億，1,000億是事實，之前的投資是650億，加上1,000億，我們沒有……"],["張委員智倫：所以川普講的是事實，還差350億。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有必要去評論2,000億這件事情，我們認為……"],["張委員智倫：2,000億就多一個廠！"],["郭部長智輝：我跟委員報告，台積電要投資到美積電，這個錢要出去，一定要經過經濟部的投審會許可，這裡面投審會一定會把關。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝院長跟部長，時間的關係，最後我還是要幫我們國人發聲，因為外資、三大法人已經連15賣超了，我們都很擔心台積電這樣子有點被美國半恐嚇式的投資，台積電投資美國這樣的事情，對於臺灣整體未來的就業、產業的外流等等這些東西，我們還是希望部長跟院長可以提供一個報告給我們所有的委員，讓我們可以放心，也讓國人放心好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：政府跟所有的產業都會保持最好的溝通，一起合作，謝謝。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝張智倫委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來最後一位登記發言第44位陳雪生委員，請質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","羅美玲","張嘉郡","林楚茵","黃健豪","林岱樺","邱鎮軍","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","廖先翔","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","郭國文","謝龍介","沈伯洋","張智倫","陳雪生"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2025-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00004","1142601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1142601_00004"}}}