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\"text\": \"人來操作這個程序的這個法律的時候那個程序面的部分就要確保他的這個正當性那這樣的一個正當性的一個操作也就是說軍事審判其實他是一種特殊形態的一種審判的一個體制但是他還是要維護\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 302.808, \"end\": 303.328, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"操\", \"start\": 303.328, \"end\": 303.628, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 303.628, \"end\": 304.169, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 304.169, \"end\": 304.409, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"序\", \"start\": 304.409, \"end\": 304.609, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 304.609, \"end\": 304.969, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 304.969, \"end\": 305.189, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"律\", \"start\": 305.189, \"end\": 305.309, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 305.309, \"end\": 305.429, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 305.429, \"end\": 305.609, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"那\", 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\"所以我們還是會尋向一般法院像我們譬如說三級三審的方式來進行未來也是會這樣子因為我有看到說未來會用這個法律審或是這個市市審來做這個輔助市市審跟上市審的救濟的部分應該是這樣就是說按照現在即使有一些相關的規定譬如說違反效忠職者國家罪這個部分呢就等同於這個叛亂罪等等的那這些罪在一般的司法機關裡面也是隸屬於高等\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 362.108, \"end\": 362.248, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 362.248, \"end\": 362.408, \"score\": 0.659}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 362.408, \"end\": 363.469, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 363.469, \"end\": 363.789, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"尋\"}, {\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 363.789, \"end\": 363.989, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 363.989, \"end\": 364.129, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"般\", \"start\": 364.129, \"end\": 364.349, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 364.349, \"end\": 364.549, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 364.549, \"end\": 364.729, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 364.729, \"end\": 364.87, \"score\": 0.857}, 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486.835, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 486.835, \"end\": 486.855, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 511.852, \"end\": 537.672, \"text\": \"好 那還有一個 給我一點時間 主席再一分鐘因為我有看到司法院他有統計說近三年來每一年大概有三百多件起訴的軍事案件我想請教一下這三百多件的這些起訴的新的案件軍事案件到底它的類型是屬於哪些它的樣態是什麼樣子這個部分我們會即將請司法機關提供案件的類型跟數量所以這部分的話 部長您這也不是很清楚\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 511.852, \"end\": 511.972, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 511.972, \"end\": 512.092, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 512.092, \"end\": 512.192, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 512.192, \"end\": 512.753, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 512.753, \"end\": 513.033, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 513.033, \"end\": 513.553, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 513.553, \"end\": 513.653, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 513.653, \"end\": 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\"因為我們現在要確定的是屬於這個入行法第二篇的軍人犯植物上之罪所以比較著重在這一塊的部分那一般的刑事案件還是歸司法機關來處理所以要恢復軍人犯植物上之罪這個部分到底是有多少類型是有多少我們會再跟司法院來做一個OK我就想這部分如果說您這邊有拿到資料或是我們辦公室可能會跟司法院要\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 550.358, \"end\": 551.319, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 551.319, \"end\": 551.899, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 551.899, \"end\": 552.62, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 552.62, \"end\": 553.1, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 553.1, \"end\": 553.24, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 553.24, \"end\": 553.381, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 553.381, \"end\": 553.881, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"屬\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 553.881, \"end\": 555.302, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"入\", \"start\": 555.302, \"end\": 555.762, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 555.762, \"end\": 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\"start\": 588.66, \"end\": 588.8, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 588.8, \"end\": 588.82, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,190 --> 00:00:01,093\n謝謝主席有請顧部長有請顧部長謝謝\n\n2\n00:00:11,351 --> 00:00:31,900\n部長早安部長今年來中國對國軍進行滲透的情形是非常的嚴重所以日前賴清德總統就宣布要恢復軍事審判制度也就是說現役的軍人如果觸犯了陸海空軍刑法的話刑法的軍事犯罪就會由軍事法庭來做審理當然這個議題這幾天引起了很多的討論\n\n3\n00:00:36,502 --> 00:01:05,291\n那其實在這個當年2013年的時候也就是因為洪仲秋案引發了這個對這個軍中人權還有階級管理失當跟軍事審判調查權的這個重新的這個檢視那歷經了兩次的這個群眾運動促進促成了這個立法院的修法也就是在陳平時期呢軍人犯罪呢會回歸到一般的司法機關來做這個審理那部長您是當年洪仲秋案的這個律師我想外界對您的這個\n\n4\n00:01:06,891 --> 00:01:17,296\n呃態度呢是非常的這個關心那我有看到日前你在受到這個媒體訪問的時候有提到就是說與其說是恢復這個軍審呢倒不如說是要來重新呃訂定一個全新的這個軍審的這個呃這個制度喔也就是說這個軍法官呢呃不會受到這個外部包含這個國防部的這個干涉要維護這一個呃審查的這個獨立性所以呃本席很好奇喔\n\n5\n00:01:34,525 --> 00:02:02,422\n那未來到底我們的軍事法庭也好或是軍事檢察署也好會是獨立於國防部之外嗎還是說未來的這個軍事法院或是軍事檢察署他會納入一般的司法體系之下這部分有想法跟規劃嗎請問部長現在的軍事法院是一個在國防部底下的一個準\n\n6\n00:02:03,652 --> 00:02:30,818\n對它是略屬於國防部隊它沒有一個法定的法的效力所以大法官之前對於軍事審判的這個軍法官是不是具有法官的獨立性這一點有所質疑是所以在這一點上面我們認為呢要確保軍法官的獨立性是很重要的所以我才說要設要將它提高到法的位階成為軍事法院組織法\n\n7\n00:02:32,658 --> 00:02:44,333\n那我現在進一步想說還有一個審檢分立的問題也就是說我們一般強調是說檢察官是負責偵查追溯那審判是負責這個個案審理\n\n8\n00:02:47,797 --> 00:03:05,627\n那這兩個之間也要分立不屬於同一個體系所以是不是也要研議建構一個軍事檢察署的組織法那這樣子的一個兩個組織法把它提高到法的位階來之後呢\n\n9\n00:03:07,409 --> 00:03:25,567\n這個先確保這個組織面的一個獨立性那另外人事的獨立性的部分呢可能要訂定一個軍馬官人事條例也就是說軍馬官的這個甄選從甄選一直到養成然後後來到這個他對他的身份保障\n\n10\n00:03:26,388 --> 00:03:49,113\n然後乃至於到這個相關的評鑑跟淘汰都要引進外部的機制也就是說他不會是由這個國防部的內部的人士來管理而是透過一個我引進外部單位多元的一個審議委員會來公平的一個確保他的這個\n\n11\n00:03:51,395 --> 00:04:14,863\n獨立性的一個情況之下來做相關的這些包括對他的這個養成也好包括對他的這個身份保障也好包括對他的這個相關的評鑑淘汰也好都不受這個國安部本身的一個控制那這樣才能夠確保他的獨立性這是現在的想法\n\n12\n00:04:15,143 --> 00:04:34,008\n所以部長您的意思簡單來講換言之就是說未來我們的軍事法院軍事檢察署是完全獨立在國防部之外不像過去是像過去我們的軍事法院其實是隸屬於國防部就是完全要獨立以前是在國防部的鞭子底下可是我們軍事審判法其實主管單位還是國防部不是嗎\n\n13\n00:04:40,310 --> 00:05:01,966\n沒有審判法它是一種程序法它不屬於司法院啊軍事審判法它是一種操作性的概念所以軍事審判法的重點是在於它軍事審判法裡面的內容它必須要維持它裡面內容的程序的正當性所以它是一個操作性的法律那由人\n\n14\n00:05:02,808 --> 00:05:20,255\n人來操作這個程序的這個法律的時候那個程序面的部分就要確保他的這個正當性那這樣的一個正當性的一個操作也就是說軍事審判其實他是一種特殊形態的一種審判的一個體制但是他還是要維護\n\n15\n00:05:21,616 --> 00:05:41,438\n維持住憲法所要求的政黨法律程序的要求所以我們會把它修改到就是說跟至少要跟憲刑的這個刑訴法相關的一些政黨法律程序要求要有一致這樣子那譬如說有舉幾個例子第一個譬如說\n\n16\n00:05:43,099 --> 00:06:01,568\n階級審判,過去的軍事審判法是說這個衛官以下是由地方軍事法院然後校官以上是由高等軍事法院那事實上這個也被大法官認為這個是有違這個階級管轄是有違憲的一個部分那這個部分我們會加以修改\n\n17\n00:06:02,108 --> 00:06:30,964\n所以我們還是會尋向一般法院像我們譬如說三級三審的方式來進行未來也是會這樣子因為我有看到說未來會用這個法律審或是這個市市審來做這個輔助市市審跟上市審的救濟的部分應該是這樣就是說按照現在即使有一些相關的規定譬如說違反效忠職者國家罪這個部分呢就等同於這個叛亂罪等等的那這些罪在一般的司法機關裡面也是隸屬於高等\n\n18\n00:06:31,824 --> 00:07:00,347\n軍事法院為第一審然後之後上訴審那最終審可能是到這個司法院的最高法院那所以他可能是一個審計那一般的其他案件可能是在地方軍事法院那地方軍事法院審完之後應該是要如何這個我們還要跟社會各界做一個溝通來確認到底是幾個市市審來進行那就這個部分呢還有要考量是不是要這個\n\n19\n00:07:01,904 --> 00:07:19,979\n有一些這個審判的一個設計上面要這個能源的組成要如何這個我們也都要已經在做相關的規劃那我們要跟司法院跟法務部還要再做溝通是看起來這個要恢復這個軍事審判好像還沒有那麼快因為我看到說我們還要制定\n\n20\n00:07:20,579 --> 00:07:33,511\n軍法官的人事條例還有這個軍事法院的組織法我們還要訂定軍事警察署的組織法等等還要跟社會對話還要跟司法院這邊來做溝通那是不是說短期內這個還有一段時間還有一段路要走\n\n21\n00:07:34,139 --> 00:07:59,991\n是跟委員報告我們就是說沒有辦法定出一個時間的原因就在於是說因為這些都要跟這個我們草案現在基本上有一個初稿那出來之後我們要跟專家學者來做諮商諮商以後我們要跟社會各界做溝通然後還要送到大院來進行審議所以那這個中間還要涉及到相關的一個\n\n22\n00:08:01,271 --> 00:08:06,855\n因為我們畢竟是11年了都沒有這個能量已經逐漸萎縮所以我們現在要恢復的話要重新啟動其實還是一個大工程重新啟動是一個坦白講是一個大工程\n\n23\n00:08:31,852 --> 00:08:57,672\n好那還有一個給我一點時間主席再一分鐘因為我有看到司法院他有統計說近三年來每一年大概有三百多件起訴的軍事案件我想請教一下這三百多件的這些起訴的新的案件軍事案件到底它的類型是屬於哪些它的樣態是什麼樣子這個部分我們會即將請司法機關提供案件的類型跟數量所以這部分的話部長您這也不是很清楚\n\n24\n00:08:57,892 --> 00:08:59,975\n因為我們本來想了解涉密還是供迭案還是怎麼樣因為我覺得這個數字一年300多件其實還蠻多的\n\n25\n00:09:10,358 --> 00:09:37,840\n因為我們現在要確定的是屬於這個入行法第二篇的軍人犯植物上之罪所以比較著重在這一塊的部分那一般的刑事案件還是歸司法機關來處理所以要恢復軍人犯植物上之罪這個部分到底是有多少類型是有多少我們會再跟司法院來做一個OK我就想這部分如果說您這邊有拿到資料或是我們辦公室可能會跟司法院要\n\n26\n00:09:38,521 --> 00:09:48,820\n掉這個資料因為我覺得對這個案件一年三百多件的這個洗漱的軍事案件是讓本席真的是比較好奇到底是哪些案件OK好以上謝謝好謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n190\t1093\t謝謝主席 有請顧部長有請顧部長 謝謝\n11351\t31900\t部長早安部長 今年來中國對國軍進行滲透的情形是非常的嚴重所以日前賴清德總統就宣布要恢復軍事審判制度也就是說現役的軍人如果觸犯了陸海空軍刑法的話刑法的軍事犯罪就會由軍事法庭來做審理當然這個議題這幾天引起了很多的討論\n36502\t65291\t那其實在這個當年2013年的時候也就是因為洪仲秋案引發了這個對這個軍中人權還有階級管理失當跟軍事審判調查權的這個重新的這個檢視那歷經了兩次的這個群眾運動促進促成了這個立法院的修法也就是在陳平時期呢軍人犯罪呢會回歸到一般的司法機關來做這個審理那部長您是當年洪仲秋案的這個律師我想外界對您的這個\n66891\t77296\t呃 態度呢是非常的這個關心那我有看到日前你在受到這個媒體訪問的時候有提到就是說與其說是恢復這個軍審呢倒不如說是要來重新呃 訂定一個全新的這個軍審的這個呃 這個制度喔也就是說這個軍法官呢呃 不會受到這個外部包含這個國防部的這個干涉要維護這一個呃 審查的這個獨立性所以呃 本席很好奇喔\n94525\t122422\t那未來到底我們的軍事法庭也好或是軍事檢察署也好會是獨立於國防部之外嗎還是說未來的這個軍事法院或是軍事檢察署他會納入一般的司法體系之下這部分有想法跟規劃嗎請問部長現在的軍事法院是一個在國防部底下的一個準\n123652\t150818\t對 它是略屬於國防部隊它沒有一個法定的法的效力所以大法官之前對於軍事審判的這個軍法官是不是具有法官的獨立性這一點有所質疑是所以在這一點上面我們認為呢要確保軍法官的獨立性是很重要的所以我才說要設要將它提高到法的位階成為軍事法院組織法\n152658\t164333\t那我現在進一步想說還有一個審檢分立的問題也就是說我們一般強調是說檢察官是負責偵查追溯那審判是負責這個個案審理\n167797\t185627\t那這兩個之間也要分立不屬於同一個體系所以是不是也要研議建構一個軍事檢察署的組織法那這樣子的一個兩個組織法把它提高到法的位階來之後呢\n187409\t205567\t這個先確保這個組織面的一個獨立性那另外人事的獨立性的部分呢可能要訂定一個軍馬官人事條例也就是說軍馬官的這個甄選從甄選一直到養成然後後來到這個他對他的身份保障\n206388\t229113\t然後乃至於到這個相關的評鑑跟淘汰都要引進外部的機制也就是說他不會是由這個國防部的內部的人士來管理而是透過一個我引進外部單位多元的一個審議委員會來公平的一個確保他的這個\n231395\t254863\t獨立性的一個情況之下來做相關的這些包括對他的這個養成也好包括對他的這個身份保障也好包括對他的這個相關的評鑑淘汰也好都不受這個國安部本身的一個控制那這樣才能夠確保他的獨立性這是現在的想法\n255143\t274008\t所以部長您的意思簡單來講換言之就是說未來我們的軍事法院軍事檢察署是完全獨立在國防部之外不像過去是像過去我們的軍事法院其實是隸屬於國防部就是完全要獨立以前是在國防部的鞭子底下可是我們軍事審判法其實主管單位還是國防部不是嗎\n280310\t301966\t沒有 審判法它是一種程序法它不屬於司法院啊軍事審判法它是一種操作性的概念所以軍事審判法的重點是在於它軍事審判法裡面的內容它必須要維持它裡面內容的程序的正當性所以它是一個操作性的法律那由人\n302808\t320255\t人來操作這個程序的這個法律的時候那個程序面的部分就要確保他的這個正當性那這樣的一個正當性的一個操作也就是說軍事審判其實他是一種特殊形態的一種審判的一個體制但是他還是要維護\n321616\t341438\t維持住憲法所要求的政黨法律程序的要求所以我們會把它修改到就是說跟至少要跟憲刑的這個刑訴法相關的一些政黨法律程序要求要有一致這樣子那譬如說有舉幾個例子第一個譬如說\n343099\t361568\t階級審判,過去的軍事審判法是說這個衛官以下是由地方軍事法院然後校官以上是由高等軍事法院那事實上這個也被大法官認為這個是有違這個階級管轄是有違憲的一個部分那這個部分我們會加以修改\n362108\t390964\t所以我們還是會尋向一般法院像我們譬如說三級三審的方式來進行未來也是會這樣子因為我有看到說未來會用這個法律審或是這個市市審來做這個輔助市市審跟上市審的救濟的部分應該是這樣就是說按照現在即使有一些相關的規定譬如說違反效忠職者國家罪這個部分呢就等同於這個叛亂罪等等的那這些罪在一般的司法機關裡面也是隸屬於高等\n391824\t420347\t軍事法院為第一審然後之後上訴審那最終審可能是到這個司法院的最高法院那所以他可能是一個審計那一般的其他案件可能是在地方軍事法院那地方軍事法院審完之後應該是要如何這個我們還要跟社會各界做一個溝通來確認到底是幾個市市審來進行那就這個部分呢還有要考量是不是要這個\n421904\t439979\t有一些這個審判的一個設計上面要這個能源的組成要如何這個我們也都要已經在做相關的規劃那我們要跟司法院跟法務部還要再做溝通是看起來這個要恢復這個軍事審判好像還沒有那麼快因為我看到說我們還要制定\n440579\t453511\t軍法官的人事條例還有這個軍事法院的組織法我們還要訂定軍事警察署的組織法等等還要跟社會對話還要跟司法院這邊來做溝通那是不是說短期內這個還有一段時間還有一段路要走\n454139\t479991\t是跟委員報告我們就是說沒有辦法定出一個時間的原因就在於是說因為這些都要跟這個我們草案現在基本上有一個初稿那出來之後我們要跟專家學者來做諮商諮商以後我們要跟社會各界做溝通然後還要送到大院來進行審議所以那這個中間還要涉及到相關的一個\n481271\t486855\t因為我們畢竟是11年了都沒有這個能量已經逐漸萎縮所以我們現在要恢復的話要重新啟動其實還是一個大工程重新啟動是一個坦白講是一個大工程\n511852\t537672\t好 那還有一個 給我一點時間 主席再一分鐘因為我有看到司法院他有統計說近三年來每一年大概有三百多件起訴的軍事案件我想請教一下這三百多件的這些起訴的新的案件軍事案件到底它的類型是屬於哪些它的樣態是什麼樣子這個部分我們會即將請司法機關提供案件的類型跟數量所以這部分的話 部長您這也不是很清楚\n537892\t539975\t因為我們本來想了解涉密還是供迭案還是怎麼樣因為我覺得這個數字一年300多件其實還蠻多的\n550358\t577840\t因為我們現在要確定的是屬於這個入行法第二篇的軍人犯植物上之罪所以比較著重在這一塊的部分那一般的刑事案件還是歸司法機關來處理所以要恢復軍人犯植物上之罪這個部分到底是有多少類型是有多少我們會再跟司法院來做一個OK我就想這部分如果說您這邊有拿到資料或是我們辦公室可能會跟司法院要\n578521\t588820\t掉這個資料因為我覺得對這個案件一年三百多件的這個洗漱的軍事案件是讓本席真的是比較好奇到底是哪些案件OK 好 以上謝謝好 謝謝委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請顧部長有請顧部長 謝謝\n部長早安部長 今年來中國對國軍進行滲透的情形是非常的嚴重所以日前賴清德總統就宣布要恢復軍事審判制度也就是說現役的軍人如果觸犯了陸海空軍刑法的話刑法的軍事犯罪就會由軍事法庭來做審理當然這個議題這幾天引起了很多的討論\n那其實在這個當年2013年的時候也就是因為洪仲秋案引發了這個對這個軍中人權還有階級管理失當跟軍事審判調查權的這個重新的這個檢視那歷經了兩次的這個群眾運動促進促成了這個立法院的修法也就是在陳平時期呢軍人犯罪呢會回歸到一般的司法機關來做這個審理那部長您是當年洪仲秋案的這個律師我想外界對您的這個\n呃 態度呢是非常的這個關心那我有看到日前你在受到這個媒體訪問的時候有提到就是說與其說是恢復這個軍審呢倒不如說是要來重新呃 訂定一個全新的這個軍審的這個呃 這個制度喔也就是說這個軍法官呢呃 不會受到這個外部包含這個國防部的這個干涉要維護這一個呃 審查的這個獨立性所以呃 本席很好奇喔\n那未來到底我們的軍事法庭也好或是軍事檢察署也好會是獨立於國防部之外嗎還是說未來的這個軍事法院或是軍事檢察署他會納入一般的司法體系之下這部分有想法跟規劃嗎請問部長現在的軍事法院是一個在國防部底下的一個準\n對 它是略屬於國防部隊它沒有一個法定的法的效力所以大法官之前對於軍事審判的這個軍法官是不是具有法官的獨立性這一點有所質疑是所以在這一點上面我們認為呢要確保軍法官的獨立性是很重要的所以我才說要設要將它提高到法的位階成為軍事法院組織法\n那我現在進一步想說還有一個審檢分立的問題也就是說我們一般強調是說檢察官是負責偵查追溯那審判是負責這個個案審理\n那這兩個之間也要分立不屬於同一個體系所以是不是也要研議建構一個軍事檢察署的組織法那這樣子的一個兩個組織法把它提高到法的位階來之後呢\n這個先確保這個組織面的一個獨立性那另外人事的獨立性的部分呢可能要訂定一個軍馬官人事條例也就是說軍馬官的這個甄選從甄選一直到養成然後後來到這個他對他的身份保障\n然後乃至於到這個相關的評鑑跟淘汰都要引進外部的機制也就是說他不會是由這個國防部的內部的人士來管理而是透過一個我引進外部單位多元的一個審議委員會來公平的一個確保他的這個\n獨立性的一個情況之下來做相關的這些包括對他的這個養成也好包括對他的這個身份保障也好包括對他的這個相關的評鑑淘汰也好都不受這個國安部本身的一個控制那這樣才能夠確保他的獨立性這是現在的想法\n所以部長您的意思簡單來講換言之就是說未來我們的軍事法院軍事檢察署是完全獨立在國防部之外不像過去是像過去我們的軍事法院其實是隸屬於國防部就是完全要獨立以前是在國防部的鞭子底下可是我們軍事審判法其實主管單位還是國防部不是嗎\n沒有 審判法它是一種程序法它不屬於司法院啊軍事審判法它是一種操作性的概念所以軍事審判法的重點是在於它軍事審判法裡面的內容它必須要維持它裡面內容的程序的正當性所以它是一個操作性的法律那由人\n人來操作這個程序的這個法律的時候那個程序面的部分就要確保他的這個正當性那這樣的一個正當性的一個操作也就是說軍事審判其實他是一種特殊形態的一種審判的一個體制但是他還是要維護\n維持住憲法所要求的政黨法律程序的要求所以我們會把它修改到就是說跟至少要跟憲刑的這個刑訴法相關的一些政黨法律程序要求要有一致這樣子那譬如說有舉幾個例子第一個譬如說\n階級審判,過去的軍事審判法是說這個衛官以下是由地方軍事法院然後校官以上是由高等軍事法院那事實上這個也被大法官認為這個是有違這個階級管轄是有違憲的一個部分那這個部分我們會加以修改\n所以我們還是會尋向一般法院像我們譬如說三級三審的方式來進行未來也是會這樣子因為我有看到說未來會用這個法律審或是這個市市審來做這個輔助市市審跟上市審的救濟的部分應該是這樣就是說按照現在即使有一些相關的規定譬如說違反效忠職者國家罪這個部分呢就等同於這個叛亂罪等等的那這些罪在一般的司法機關裡面也是隸屬於高等\n軍事法院為第一審然後之後上訴審那最終審可能是到這個司法院的最高法院那所以他可能是一個審計那一般的其他案件可能是在地方軍事法院那地方軍事法院審完之後應該是要如何這個我們還要跟社會各界做一個溝通來確認到底是幾個市市審來進行那就這個部分呢還有要考量是不是要這個\n有一些這個審判的一個設計上面要這個能源的組成要如何這個我們也都要已經在做相關的規劃那我們要跟司法院跟法務部還要再做溝通是看起來這個要恢復這個軍事審判好像還沒有那麼快因為我看到說我們還要制定\n軍法官的人事條例還有這個軍事法院的組織法我們還要訂定軍事警察署的組織法等等還要跟社會對話還要跟司法院這邊來做溝通那是不是說短期內這個還有一段時間還有一段路要走\n是跟委員報告我們就是說沒有辦法定出一個時間的原因就在於是說因為這些都要跟這個我們草案現在基本上有一個初稿那出來之後我們要跟專家學者來做諮商諮商以後我們要跟社會各界做溝通然後還要送到大院來進行審議所以那這個中間還要涉及到相關的一個\n因為我們畢竟是11年了都沒有這個能量已經逐漸萎縮所以我們現在要恢復的話要重新啟動其實還是一個大工程重新啟動是一個坦白講是一個大工程\n好 那還有一個 給我一點時間 主席再一分鐘因為我有看到司法院他有統計說近三年來每一年大概有三百多件起訴的軍事案件我想請教一下這三百多件的這些起訴的新的案件軍事案件到底它的類型是屬於哪些它的樣態是什麼樣子這個部分我們會即將請司法機關提供案件的類型跟數量所以這部分的話 部長您這也不是很清楚\n因為我們本來想了解涉密還是供迭案還是怎麼樣因為我覺得這個數字一年300多件其實還蠻多的\n因為我們現在要確定的是屬於這個入行法第二篇的軍人犯植物上之罪所以比較著重在這一塊的部分那一般的刑事案件還是歸司法機關來處理所以要恢復軍人犯植物上之罪這個部分到底是有多少類型是有多少我們會再跟司法院來做一個OK我就想這部分如果說您這邊有拿到資料或是我們辦公室可能會跟司法院要\n掉這個資料因為我覺得對這個案件一年三百多件的這個洗漱的軍事案件是讓本席真的是比較好奇到底是哪些案件OK 好 以上謝謝好 謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.190 --> 00:01.093\n謝謝主席有請顧部長有請顧部長謝謝\n\n00:11.351 --> 00:31.900\n部長早安部長今年來中國對國軍進行滲透的情形是非常的嚴重所以日前賴清德總統就宣布要恢復軍事審判制度也就是說現役的軍人如果觸犯了陸海空軍刑法的話刑法的軍事犯罪就會由軍事法庭來做審理當然這個議題這幾天引起了很多的討論\n\n00:36.502 --> 01:05.291\n那其實在這個當年2013年的時候也就是因為洪仲秋案引發了這個對這個軍中人權還有階級管理失當跟軍事審判調查權的這個重新的這個檢視那歷經了兩次的這個群眾運動促進促成了這個立法院的修法也就是在陳平時期呢軍人犯罪呢會回歸到一般的司法機關來做這個審理那部長您是當年洪仲秋案的這個律師我想外界對您的這個\n\n01:06.891 --> 01:17.296\n呃態度呢是非常的這個關心那我有看到日前你在受到這個媒體訪問的時候有提到就是說與其說是恢復這個軍審呢倒不如說是要來重新呃訂定一個全新的這個軍審的這個呃這個制度喔也就是說這個軍法官呢呃不會受到這個外部包含這個國防部的這個干涉要維護這一個呃審查的這個獨立性所以呃本席很好奇喔\n\n01:34.525 --> 02:02.422\n那未來到底我們的軍事法庭也好或是軍事檢察署也好會是獨立於國防部之外嗎還是說未來的這個軍事法院或是軍事檢察署他會納入一般的司法體系之下這部分有想法跟規劃嗎請問部長現在的軍事法院是一個在國防部底下的一個準\n\n02:03.652 --> 02:30.818\n對它是略屬於國防部隊它沒有一個法定的法的效力所以大法官之前對於軍事審判的這個軍法官是不是具有法官的獨立性這一點有所質疑是所以在這一點上面我們認為呢要確保軍法官的獨立性是很重要的所以我才說要設要將它提高到法的位階成為軍事法院組織法\n\n02:32.658 --> 02:44.333\n那我現在進一步想說還有一個審檢分立的問題也就是說我們一般強調是說檢察官是負責偵查追溯那審判是負責這個個案審理\n\n02:47.797 --> 03:05.627\n那這兩個之間也要分立不屬於同一個體系所以是不是也要研議建構一個軍事檢察署的組織法那這樣子的一個兩個組織法把它提高到法的位階來之後呢\n\n03:07.409 --> 03:25.567\n這個先確保這個組織面的一個獨立性那另外人事的獨立性的部分呢可能要訂定一個軍馬官人事條例也就是說軍馬官的這個甄選從甄選一直到養成然後後來到這個他對他的身份保障\n\n03:26.388 --> 03:49.113\n然後乃至於到這個相關的評鑑跟淘汰都要引進外部的機制也就是說他不會是由這個國防部的內部的人士來管理而是透過一個我引進外部單位多元的一個審議委員會來公平的一個確保他的這個\n\n03:51.395 --> 04:14.863\n獨立性的一個情況之下來做相關的這些包括對他的這個養成也好包括對他的這個身份保障也好包括對他的這個相關的評鑑淘汰也好都不受這個國安部本身的一個控制那這樣才能夠確保他的獨立性這是現在的想法\n\n04:15.143 --> 04:34.008\n所以部長您的意思簡單來講換言之就是說未來我們的軍事法院軍事檢察署是完全獨立在國防部之外不像過去是像過去我們的軍事法院其實是隸屬於國防部就是完全要獨立以前是在國防部的鞭子底下可是我們軍事審判法其實主管單位還是國防部不是嗎\n\n04:40.310 --> 05:01.966\n沒有審判法它是一種程序法它不屬於司法院啊軍事審判法它是一種操作性的概念所以軍事審判法的重點是在於它軍事審判法裡面的內容它必須要維持它裡面內容的程序的正當性所以它是一個操作性的法律那由人\n\n05:02.808 --> 05:20.255\n人來操作這個程序的這個法律的時候那個程序面的部分就要確保他的這個正當性那這樣的一個正當性的一個操作也就是說軍事審判其實他是一種特殊形態的一種審判的一個體制但是他還是要維護\n\n05:21.616 --> 05:41.438\n維持住憲法所要求的政黨法律程序的要求所以我們會把它修改到就是說跟至少要跟憲刑的這個刑訴法相關的一些政黨法律程序要求要有一致這樣子那譬如說有舉幾個例子第一個譬如說\n\n05:43.099 --> 06:01.568\n階級審判,過去的軍事審判法是說這個衛官以下是由地方軍事法院然後校官以上是由高等軍事法院那事實上這個也被大法官認為這個是有違這個階級管轄是有違憲的一個部分那這個部分我們會加以修改\n\n06:02.108 --> 06:30.964\n所以我們還是會尋向一般法院像我們譬如說三級三審的方式來進行未來也是會這樣子因為我有看到說未來會用這個法律審或是這個市市審來做這個輔助市市審跟上市審的救濟的部分應該是這樣就是說按照現在即使有一些相關的規定譬如說違反效忠職者國家罪這個部分呢就等同於這個叛亂罪等等的那這些罪在一般的司法機關裡面也是隸屬於高等\n\n06:31.824 --> 07:00.347\n軍事法院為第一審然後之後上訴審那最終審可能是到這個司法院的最高法院那所以他可能是一個審計那一般的其他案件可能是在地方軍事法院那地方軍事法院審完之後應該是要如何這個我們還要跟社會各界做一個溝通來確認到底是幾個市市審來進行那就這個部分呢還有要考量是不是要這個\n\n07:01.904 --> 07:19.979\n有一些這個審判的一個設計上面要這個能源的組成要如何這個我們也都要已經在做相關的規劃那我們要跟司法院跟法務部還要再做溝通是看起來這個要恢復這個軍事審判好像還沒有那麼快因為我看到說我們還要制定\n\n07:20.579 --> 07:33.511\n軍法官的人事條例還有這個軍事法院的組織法我們還要訂定軍事警察署的組織法等等還要跟社會對話還要跟司法院這邊來做溝通那是不是說短期內這個還有一段時間還有一段路要走\n\n07:34.139 --> 07:59.991\n是跟委員報告我們就是說沒有辦法定出一個時間的原因就在於是說因為這些都要跟這個我們草案現在基本上有一個初稿那出來之後我們要跟專家學者來做諮商諮商以後我們要跟社會各界做溝通然後還要送到大院來進行審議所以那這個中間還要涉及到相關的一個\n\n08:01.271 --> 08:06.855\n因為我們畢竟是11年了都沒有這個能量已經逐漸萎縮所以我們現在要恢復的話要重新啟動其實還是一個大工程重新啟動是一個坦白講是一個大工程\n\n08:31.852 --> 08:57.672\n好那還有一個給我一點時間主席再一分鐘因為我有看到司法院他有統計說近三年來每一年大概有三百多件起訴的軍事案件我想請教一下這三百多件的這些起訴的新的案件軍事案件到底它的類型是屬於哪些它的樣態是什麼樣子這個部分我們會即將請司法機關提供案件的類型跟數量所以這部分的話部長您這也不是很清楚\n\n08:57.892 --> 08:59.975\n因為我們本來想了解涉密還是供迭案還是怎麼樣因為我覺得這個數字一年300多件其實還蠻多的\n\n09:10.358 --> 09:37.840\n因為我們現在要確定的是屬於這個入行法第二篇的軍人犯植物上之罪所以比較著重在這一塊的部分那一般的刑事案件還是歸司法機關來處理所以要恢復軍人犯植物上之罪這個部分到底是有多少類型是有多少我們會再跟司法院來做一個OK我就想這部分如果說您這邊有拿到資料或是我們辦公室可能會跟司法院要\n\n09:38.521 --> 09:48.820\n掉這個資料因為我覺得對這個案件一年三百多件的這個洗漱的軍事案件是讓本席真的是比較好奇到底是哪些案件OK好以上謝謝好謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.19,"end":1.093,"text":"謝謝主席 有請顧部長有請顧部長 謝謝"},{"start":11.351,"end":31.9,"text":"部長早安部長 今年來中國對國軍進行滲透的情形是非常的嚴重所以日前賴清德總統就宣布要恢復軍事審判制度也就是說現役的軍人如果觸犯了陸海空軍刑法的話刑法的軍事犯罪就會由軍事法庭來做審理當然這個議題這幾天引起了很多的討論"},{"start":36.502,"end":65.291,"text":"那其實在這個當年2013年的時候也就是因為洪仲秋案引發了這個對這個軍中人權還有階級管理失當跟軍事審判調查權的這個重新的這個檢視那歷經了兩次的這個群眾運動促進促成了這個立法院的修法也就是在陳平時期呢軍人犯罪呢會回歸到一般的司法機關來做這個審理那部長您是當年洪仲秋案的這個律師我想外界對您的這個"},{"start":66.891,"end":77.296,"text":"呃 態度呢是非常的這個關心那我有看到日前你在受到這個媒體訪問的時候有提到就是說與其說是恢復這個軍審呢倒不如說是要來重新呃 訂定一個全新的這個軍審的這個呃 這個制度喔也就是說這個軍法官呢呃 不會受到這個外部包含這個國防部的這個干涉要維護這一個呃 審查的這個獨立性所以呃 本席很好奇喔"},{"start":94.525,"end":122.422,"text":"那未來到底我們的軍事法庭也好或是軍事檢察署也好會是獨立於國防部之外嗎還是說未來的這個軍事法院或是軍事檢察署他會納入一般的司法體系之下這部分有想法跟規劃嗎請問部長現在的軍事法院是一個在國防部底下的一個準"},{"start":123.652,"end":150.818,"text":"對 它是略屬於國防部隊它沒有一個法定的法的效力所以大法官之前對於軍事審判的這個軍法官是不是具有法官的獨立性這一點有所質疑是所以在這一點上面我們認為呢要確保軍法官的獨立性是很重要的所以我才說要設要將它提高到法的位階成為軍事法院組織法"},{"start":152.658,"end":164.333,"text":"那我現在進一步想說還有一個審檢分立的問題也就是說我們一般強調是說檢察官是負責偵查追溯那審判是負責這個個案審理"},{"start":167.797,"end":185.627,"text":"那這兩個之間也要分立不屬於同一個體系所以是不是也要研議建構一個軍事檢察署的組織法那這樣子的一個兩個組織法把它提高到法的位階來之後呢"},{"start":187.409,"end":205.567,"text":"這個先確保這個組織面的一個獨立性那另外人事的獨立性的部分呢可能要訂定一個軍馬官人事條例也就是說軍馬官的這個甄選從甄選一直到養成然後後來到這個他對他的身份保障"},{"start":206.388,"end":229.113,"text":"然後乃至於到這個相關的評鑑跟淘汰都要引進外部的機制也就是說他不會是由這個國防部的內部的人士來管理而是透過一個我引進外部單位多元的一個審議委員會來公平的一個確保他的這個"},{"start":231.395,"end":254.863,"text":"獨立性的一個情況之下來做相關的這些包括對他的這個養成也好包括對他的這個身份保障也好包括對他的這個相關的評鑑淘汰也好都不受這個國安部本身的一個控制那這樣才能夠確保他的獨立性這是現在的想法"},{"start":255.143,"end":274.008,"text":"所以部長您的意思簡單來講換言之就是說未來我們的軍事法院軍事檢察署是完全獨立在國防部之外不像過去是像過去我們的軍事法院其實是隸屬於國防部就是完全要獨立以前是在國防部的鞭子底下可是我們軍事審判法其實主管單位還是國防部不是嗎"},{"start":280.31,"end":301.966,"text":"沒有 審判法它是一種程序法它不屬於司法院啊軍事審判法它是一種操作性的概念所以軍事審判法的重點是在於它軍事審判法裡面的內容它必須要維持它裡面內容的程序的正當性所以它是一個操作性的法律那由人"},{"start":302.808,"end":320.255,"text":"人來操作這個程序的這個法律的時候那個程序面的部分就要確保他的這個正當性那這樣的一個正當性的一個操作也就是說軍事審判其實他是一種特殊形態的一種審判的一個體制但是他還是要維護"},{"start":321.616,"end":341.438,"text":"維持住憲法所要求的政黨法律程序的要求所以我們會把它修改到就是說跟至少要跟憲刑的這個刑訴法相關的一些政黨法律程序要求要有一致這樣子那譬如說有舉幾個例子第一個譬如說"},{"start":343.099,"end":361.568,"text":"階級審判,過去的軍事審判法是說這個衛官以下是由地方軍事法院然後校官以上是由高等軍事法院那事實上這個也被大法官認為這個是有違這個階級管轄是有違憲的一個部分那這個部分我們會加以修改"},{"start":362.108,"end":390.964,"text":"所以我們還是會尋向一般法院像我們譬如說三級三審的方式來進行未來也是會這樣子因為我有看到說未來會用這個法律審或是這個市市審來做這個輔助市市審跟上市審的救濟的部分應該是這樣就是說按照現在即使有一些相關的規定譬如說違反效忠職者國家罪這個部分呢就等同於這個叛亂罪等等的那這些罪在一般的司法機關裡面也是隸屬於高等"},{"start":391.824,"end":420.347,"text":"軍事法院為第一審然後之後上訴審那最終審可能是到這個司法院的最高法院那所以他可能是一個審計那一般的其他案件可能是在地方軍事法院那地方軍事法院審完之後應該是要如何這個我們還要跟社會各界做一個溝通來確認到底是幾個市市審來進行那就這個部分呢還有要考量是不是要這個"},{"start":421.904,"end":439.979,"text":"有一些這個審判的一個設計上面要這個能源的組成要如何這個我們也都要已經在做相關的規劃那我們要跟司法院跟法務部還要再做溝通是看起來這個要恢復這個軍事審判好像還沒有那麼快因為我看到說我們還要制定"},{"start":440.579,"end":453.511,"text":"軍法官的人事條例還有這個軍事法院的組織法我們還要訂定軍事警察署的組織法等等還要跟社會對話還要跟司法院這邊來做溝通那是不是說短期內這個還有一段時間還有一段路要走"},{"start":454.139,"end":479.991,"text":"是跟委員報告我們就是說沒有辦法定出一個時間的原因就在於是說因為這些都要跟這個我們草案現在基本上有一個初稿那出來之後我們要跟專家學者來做諮商諮商以後我們要跟社會各界做溝通然後還要送到大院來進行審議所以那這個中間還要涉及到相關的一個"},{"start":481.271,"end":486.855,"text":"因為我們畢竟是11年了都沒有這個能量已經逐漸萎縮所以我們現在要恢復的話要重新啟動其實還是一個大工程重新啟動是一個坦白講是一個大工程"},{"start":511.852,"end":537.672,"text":"好 那還有一個 給我一點時間 主席再一分鐘因為我有看到司法院他有統計說近三年來每一年大概有三百多件起訴的軍事案件我想請教一下這三百多件的這些起訴的新的案件軍事案件到底它的類型是屬於哪些它的樣態是什麼樣子這個部分我們會即將請司法機關提供案件的類型跟數量所以這部分的話 部長您這也不是很清楚"},{"start":537.892,"end":539.975,"text":"因為我們本來想了解涉密還是供迭案還是怎麼樣因為我覺得這個數字一年300多件其實還蠻多的"},{"start":550.358,"end":577.84,"text":"因為我們現在要確定的是屬於這個入行法第二篇的軍人犯植物上之罪所以比較著重在這一塊的部分那一般的刑事案件還是歸司法機關來處理所以要恢復軍人犯植物上之罪這個部分到底是有多少類型是有多少我們會再跟司法院來做一個OK我就想這部分如果說您這邊有拿到資料或是我們辦公室可能會跟司法院要"},{"start":578.521,"end":588.82,"text":"掉這個資料因為我覺得對這個案件一年三百多件的這個洗漱的軍事案件是讓本席真的是比較好奇到底是哪些案件OK 好 以上謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":186,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時36分）謝謝主席，有請顧部長。"],["主席：有請顧部長，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：羅委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：部長早安。部長，近年來中國對國軍進行滲透的情形非常嚴重，所以日前賴清德總統就宣布要恢復軍事審判制度，也就是說，現役的軍人如果觸犯了陸海空軍刑法的軍事犯罪就會由軍事法庭審理。當然，這個議題在這幾天引起了很多討論，其實在2013年當年就是因為洪仲丘案引發了對軍中人權還有階級管理失當，跟軍事審判調查權的重新檢視，歷經了兩次的群眾運動，促成了立法院的修法，也就是在承平時期，軍人犯罪會回歸到一般的司法機關審理。部長，您是當年洪仲丘案的律師，我想外界對您的態度是非常關心，我有看到日前您受到媒體訪問的時候有提到，與其說是恢復軍審，倒不如說是重新訂定一個全新的軍審制度，也就是說，軍法官不會受到外部，包含國防部的干涉，要維護審查的獨立性，所以本席也很好奇，未來我們的軍事法庭也好，或是軍事檢查署也好，會是獨立於國防部之外的嗎？還是說未來的軍事法院或軍事檢查署會納入一般的司法體系之下？請問部長，這部分有想法跟規劃嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：現在的軍事法院是在國防部底下的一個準組織的……"],["羅委員美玲：對，它是隸屬於國防部。"],["顧部長立雄：它沒有一個法定的、法的效力，所以大法官之前對於軍事審判的軍法官是不是具有法官的獨立性這一點有所質疑。"],["羅委員美玲：是。"],["顧部長立雄：所以在這一點上面，我們認為要確保軍法官的獨立性是很重要的，所以我才說要將它提高到法的位階，成為軍事法院組織法。"],["羅委員美玲：是。"],["顧部長立雄：我現在進一步講，還有一個審檢分立的問題，也就是說，我們一般強調檢察官是負責偵查追訴的。"],["羅委員美玲：對。"],["顧部長立雄：審判是負責個案審理的，這兩個之間也要分立，不屬於同一個體系，所以是不是也要研議建講一個軍事檢察署的組織法？這樣的兩個組織法，把它提高到法的位階之後，先確保組織面的獨立性，另外人事獨立性的部分，可能要訂定一個軍法官人事條例，也就是說，軍法官的甄選，從甄選一直到養成，然後到對他身分的保障，乃至於到相關的評鑑跟淘汰都要引進外部的機制，也就是說，他不會是由國防部內部的人事來管理，而是透過引進外部單位的一個多元的審議委員會，在公平地確保他獨立性的情況之下來做相關的這些，包括對他的養成也好，包括對他身分的保障也好，包括對他的相關評鑑、淘汰也好，都不受國防部本身的控制，這樣才能確保他的獨立性，這是現在的想法。"],["羅委員美玲：所以部長您的意思，簡單來講，換言之就是未來我們的軍事法院、軍事檢察署是完全獨立在國防部之外，不像過去我們的軍事法院其實是隸屬於國防部，所以是完全要獨立的。"],["顧部長立雄：對，以前是在國防部的編制底下，它現在必須要獨立。"],["羅委員美玲：可是我們的軍事審判法其實主管單位還是國防部，不是嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，審判法是一種程序法，它是一個……"],["羅委員美玲：它不屬於司法院啊！"],["顧部長立雄：軍事審判法是一種操作性的概念，所以軍事審判法的重點是在軍事審判法裡面的內容，它必須要維持裡面內容的程序正當性，所以它是一個操作性的法律，由人來操作這個程序的法律時，那個程序面的部分就要確保它的正當性，那這樣的一個正當性操作，也就是說軍事審判其實是一種特殊形態的審判體制，但是它還是要維持住憲法對正當法律程序的要求，所以我們至少會把它修改到跟現行刑事訴訟法對相關正當法律程序的要求一致，譬如我舉幾個例子，第一個，階級審判，過去的軍事審判法是說，尉官以下是由地方軍事法院，校官以上是由高等軍事法院，但事實上這個也被大法官認為階級管轄是有違憲的部分，這個部分我們會加以修改。"],["羅委員美玲：所以我們還是會循一般法院，比如說三級三審的方式來進行，未來也是會這樣子……因為我有看到，未來會用法律審或事實審來做輔助……"],["顧部長立雄：事實審跟上訴救濟的部分應該是這樣的，現在即使有一些相關的規定，比如說違反效忠國家職責罪就等同於叛亂罪等等，這些罪在一般司法機關裡也是隸屬於高等軍事法院為第一審，然後上訴審，最終審可能到司法院的最高法院，所以可能是一個審級，一般的其他案件可能是在地方軍事法院審理，審完之後應該是要如何，我們還要跟社會各界做溝通確認，到底進行幾個事實審？還要考量是不是在審判的設計上，人員要如何組成？這些我們已經在做相關的規劃，還要跟司法院及法務部溝通。"],["羅委員美玲：看起來要恢復軍事審判好像還沒有那麼快，因為我們要制定軍法官的人事條例、軍事法院組織法及軍事檢察署的組織法等等，還要跟社會對話，跟司法院溝通，那是不是短期內還有一段時間、一段路要走？"],["顧部長立雄：是，跟委員報告，我們沒有辦法訂出一個時間……"],["羅委員美玲：一個時程。"],["顧部長立雄：原因在於，基本上這些草案初稿出來之後，我們要跟專家學者諮商、要跟社會各界溝通，還要送到大院進行審議，這中間還涉及到相關的軍法官，不管是檢察官，或者是從事審判的法官的養成，都還需要跟司法院及法務部溝通，的確還需要一些時間，因為我們畢竟是11年都沒有了，能量已經逐漸萎縮，所以我們現在要恢復……"],["羅委員美玲：要重新啟動，其實還是一個大工程。"],["顧部長立雄：坦白講，重新啟動是一個大工程。"],["羅委員美玲：OK！好，主席再給我1分鐘。","我看到司法院有統計近3年來，每1年大概有三百多件起訴的軍事案件，想請教到底這三百多件起訴軍事案件的類型是屬於哪些？樣態是什麼？知道嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：這個部分我們即將請司法機關提供案件的類型跟數量。"],["羅委員美玲：部長，這部分您不是很清楚，可是……"],["顧部長立雄：我們現在……"],["羅委員美玲：我們本來想了解是涉密呢？共諜案呢？還是怎麼樣？因為我覺得一年三百多件這個數字其實還滿多的。"],["顧部長立雄：現在要確定的是屬於「陸海空軍刑法」第二編的軍人犯職務上之罪，所以比較著重在這一塊，一般的刑事案件還是歸司法機關處理。"],["羅委員美玲：是。"],["顧部長立雄：所以要恢復軍人犯職務上之罪，到底是有多少類型、有多少數量，我們會再跟司法院做瞭解。"],["羅委員美玲：OK！如果您這邊有拿到資料，或是我們辦公室可能會跟司法院調這個資料，因為一年三百多件的起訴軍事案件讓本席真的是比較好奇，到底是哪些案件？OK，以上謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝委員！"],["主席：謝謝羅委員。現在請馬文君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":316,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-4","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","徐巧芯","李坤城","邱志偉","蔡易餘","林憶君","蘇清泉","王鴻薇"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況暨「四年期國防總檢討」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00016"}}}