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\"因為過去應該是委員會就可以去動因為當時大家的共識是你在原型件還沒做好然後就編了大額的預算他不是今年他不是20億他通過的是2840億14年的時間所以大家會比較慎重\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 733.949, \"end\": 733.969, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 733.969, \"end\": 734.089, \"score\": 0.545}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 734.089, \"end\": 734.109, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 734.109, \"end\": 734.19, \"score\": 0.474}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 734.19, \"end\": 734.21, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 734.21, \"end\": 734.41, \"score\": 0.593}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 734.41, \"end\": 734.43, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 734.43, \"end\": 734.73, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 734.73, \"end\": 734.85, \"score\": 0.724}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 734.85, \"end\": 734.87, 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\"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 735.952, \"end\": 735.972, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 735.972, \"end\": 736.052, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"編\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 736.052, \"end\": 736.112, \"score\": 0.022}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 736.112, \"end\": 736.132, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"額\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 736.132, \"end\": 736.232, \"score\": 0.697}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 736.232, \"end\": 736.272, \"score\": 0.484}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 736.272, \"end\": 736.292, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 736.292, \"end\": 736.312, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 736.312, \"end\": 736.392, \"score\": 0.74}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 736.392, \"end\": 736.412, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 736.412, \"end\": 736.432, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 736.432, \"end\": 736.612, \"score\": 0.56}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 736.612, 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00:01:30,720\n這個部分我們在今天的公開質詢就不討論他的內容不過我們要看一下他更深層的一個部分就是說他對岸公佈這些人的照片、姓名、性別、身份證等個資而且還指出其中的職位他甚至是負責人還有戰隊隊長\n\n6\n00:01:34,453 --> 00:01:39,714\n這個部分如果我們要對我們單位的弟兄去著想的時候因為現在網路作戰它已經是一個常態或者甚至是非常重要的一環那他們在軍中不可能是終身職他不像其他一般的工作那如果他不適合或者說他離職以後這個部分他是被對岸終身追責所以這個部分可不可以考量他們可以向國安局或情報局的\n\n7\n00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:17,075\n負責對陸人員一樣他用就是用別名去識別因為國防部對於這些相關人的作業人員應該提高他的國安等級的相關防護或者給予適當的鼓勵這個部分部長怎麼看\n\n8\n00:02:21,273 --> 00:02:35,022\n這一點我同意這一點因為我想中電軍也是納入我們這個國家勤工法的相關的條文的使用所以我覺得不管他執行任務的安全要以保障那退離職會\n\n9\n00:02:37,563 --> 00:02:48,929\n之後呢我應該也要提供這個有關一些相關的一些協助他們可能不是離職而已啊就是我們我們現在講的是包括我們的國安局國安單位的或者像一些情報人員其實他如果在從事這樣的工作的時候他不是用不是全部用真名應該要怎麼樣去保障他們的身份因為他一旦離職以後離職我們沒有辦法保護因為其實他被終身追責\n\n10\n00:03:06,338 --> 00:03:13,424\n這個部分其實他只要不在我們的國內他可能會受到很大的威脅這個部分是不是也應該要重新去考量他們需要受到的防護或者應該要什麼樣的獎勵因為你畢竟要留人才其實也不容易這個部分請部長再針對這個部分可以再去做一些相關的研究好不好是那目前\n\n11\n00:03:34,187 --> 00:03:52,151\n日前賴總統宣布剛剛其實委員也有委員提到就是全面檢討修正軍事審判法要恢復軍法的部分處理現役軍人涉犯叛亂利敵泄密廢止職務抗命等等這些跟軍事相關犯罪之刑事案件那未來現役軍人觸犯陸海空軍刑法之軍事犯罪案要交由軍事法院審判\n\n12\n00:04:02,304 --> 00:04:28,656\n因為剛剛部長也做了一些說明我想請教的是因為本席或者一些相關的在國防部過去有很多包括部長包括一些相關的人員就是在管理階層其實他們也發現到軍紀一直沒有辦法很有效的去做一個管理其實可能\n\n13\n00:04:29,676 --> 00:04:40,103\n在這個部分是不是應該要做什麼樣的一個修正可是當時我們看到其實包括賴總統包括顧部長您其實都說要審慎的評估甚至你還說到其實是不同意軍法復辟\n\n14\n00:04:51,351 --> 00:04:53,976\n可是剛剛提到的您提到的說怎麼樣去做它的修整它甚至不隸屬在國防部底下我想請教一下目前全世界有哪一個國家是用這樣的制度\n\n15\n00:05:04,810 --> 00:05:20,941\n有嗎?全世界目前有哪一個國家是像剛剛部長您提到的是用另外一個審判的方式或者吝嗇一個軍事法庭之類的這樣的一個方式來做全世界目前有哪一個國家是這麼做?\n\n16\n00:05:22,669 --> 00:05:37,966\n維持這個一般的司法跟軍事審判的國家在民主國家有美國英國加拿大以色列韓國跟新加坡等等他們都是怎麼做他們是用剛剛部長連說的方式是這樣子嗎這樣的制度嗎我想\n\n17\n00:05:42,324 --> 00:06:09,712\n每一個國家的他的這個不是部長我現在只是說因為過去我們有軍閥可是在洪仲秋案的時候很多整個社會的氛圍讓他把這個軍閥去把它暫時當然還有可是平時已經是在一般法院剛剛部長提到的方式那樣子的制度我想請教目前全世界有哪一個國家是採取這樣子的一個制度方式目前\n\n18\n00:06:12,412 --> 00:06:18,009\n呃我想不是軍保我說您剛剛提到的這樣子的方式目前有哪一個國家這麼做\n\n19\n00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:41,789\n我想因為每個國家我們大致上法制上有分成英美法系跟大陸法系部長我沒有要討論這個部分這一塊在法律的部分上面大家很清楚我現在說的是您剛剛提到的制度現在目前在全世界的民主國家有哪一個國家是採取這樣的模式有嗎\n\n20\n00:06:43,570 --> 00:06:59,093\n我想我們會去看看這個相關的這些大陸法系的國家他們所適用的如何維護這個軍法官他在審判當中的一個身份保障這個部分我們會來研究我們如果是自己又創立一個因為過去大家就是覺得尤其他是在國防部底下因為你是對現役軍人嘛我們來看一個影片好不好部長這個可能昨天看到的\n\n21\n00:07:13,192 --> 00:07:34,582\n軍事法庭看到還蠻恐怖的\n\n22\n00:07:35,832 --> 00:07:56,936\n部長您沒有不是現役軍人不可能會按照我們現在的所以他為什麼會有這種理解因為軍事法庭他審理的就是現役軍人現在對大家都是這麼說可是他的身份很特別他曾經他是民進黨很重要的一個政治評論員他出來講這樣的話甚至說這個如果牽涉到遣件或者牽涉到什麼共諜案\n\n23\n00:08:04,918 --> 00:08:20,833\n在這裡我想要請教部長一個問題,當時黃曙光前召集人,黃曙光前總長,他講到一個跟中共相關的一個問題,他說有人把資料給了中共大使館,\n\n24\n00:08:21,914 --> 00:08:24,515\n這個部分我不知道我們有沒有去追究這個部分因為中共大使館可見不是在中國大陸本土而是在其他的國家那到底是誰交給中共大使館或者這只是假的如果是假的就沒有馬文君牽涉到共諜的問題如果是真的那到底是誰\n\n25\n00:08:44,784 --> 00:08:54,768\n如果我們可以查看看那時候我有沒有出國有沒有去這些相關的國家這是第一點如果像到中共大使館那個通常都會有監視器的你的資訊是怎麼樣獲得的這個部分請徹查清楚因為這牽涉到我們的資料\n\n26\n00:09:05,413 --> 00:09:15,403\n是不是有外泄如果你第一艘的潛艦資料都外泄你後面第二艘跟第八艘要怎麼繼續做或者你要從頭來過這個都沒有交代清楚可是我們預算已經編了第二個這個政治評論員他怎麼知道這個案子都沒有動為什麼他會知道如果像這樣子拿國家的一個很重要的機密案\n\n27\n00:09:31,411 --> 00:09:37,636\n他不知道真假甚至不懂潛艦他都可以大剌剌的從過去到現在至少已經講了快兩年他都不用負擔責任嗎你給社會大眾是什麼樣的一個認知這會不會影響我們所有整體的國防安全這個也請國防部再去了解一下最後不好意思跟委員跟召委接一點點時間我想請教部長\n\n28\n00:09:56,249 --> 00:10:01,712\n第一艘潛艦原型艦它幾乎編列500億的預算有沒有被刪過一毛錢潛艦的預算當時在委員會裡面並沒有被刪都沒有被刪嗎?幾乎原型艦都沒有被刪過一毛錢當時明知道因為過去在民進黨完全執政的情況之下我們也知道只要提出這樣刪減案\n\n29\n00:10:33,560 --> 00:10:34,402\n壞掉了\n\n30\n00:10:41,651 --> 00:10:48,398\n抱歉部長我想在這裡只要做出澄清就是我們的原型艦從頭到尾沒有被刪過一毛錢對不對是總共493億如果連設計費30億還包括海軍的顧問費其實已經高達500多億那個連一毛錢都沒有被刪當時在\n\n31\n00:11:02,631 --> 00:11:06,553\n民進黨完全執政的情況之下為什麼我們提刪減數包括我們在場的委員比較資深的就是我跟王定宇委員其實民進黨也有提刪減案高達三十幾億所以我們只是要監督預算當時我們也知道我們刪不了可是為什麼還是提刪動主要是如果沒有提案問題就沒有人會注意所以在這裡我們希望在立法院今天的委員會可以\n\n32\n00:11:31,943 --> 00:11:50,035\n重新好好的澄清原型艦連一毛錢都沒有被刪過在過程當中大家都希望他可以做到好而且是可以維護我們國家安全是一個有效的一個防衛的武器攻擊武器所以在這裡謝謝部長然後我們今年編的預算其實也是凍結對不對\n\n33\n00:11:56,618 --> 00:12:12,969\n就後續建的部分是要凍結50%嗎凍結50%對我們今年的影響並不會造成什麼樣的一個這個前進的玉山凍結主要它是要到院會做一個專報才能夠解凍這個部分好像還沒有潛力\n\n34\n00:12:13,949 --> 00:12:17,013\n因為過去應該是委員會就可以去動因為當時大家的共識是你在原型件還沒做好然後就編了大額的預算他不是今年他不是20億他通過的是2840億14年的時間所以大家會比較慎重\n\n35\n00:12:33,092 --> 00:12:38,739\n因為當時的共識是這樣部長您也同意說他通過海事以後再去動之這筆預算如果在11月他沒有辦法通過的時候他甚至連動都不能動也不該動所以其實我想大家應該在聚焦到怎麼樣讓我們可以獲得一個有效的\n\n36\n00:12:52,815 --> 00:13:18,405\n還可以符合我們作戰需求裝備這樣子的一個立場我想大家都是一致的這個部分還是希望請部長可以去理解因為過去沒有潛力我們也是第一次造潛艦啊我們也沒有潛力啊所以沒關係就是都有第一次嘛後續艦的這個解凍我們不希望有太多的不確定性因為到院會去解凍這件事情\n\n37\n00:13:19,446 --> 00:13:41,469\n如果在11月我們能夠順利交件我們當然是希望11月交件的時候我們連其他作業都來不及包括你作業費想要做什麼都來不及所以部長您放心這個沒有前例的情況之下因為我們也是第一次自己遣件國照嘛這也沒有前例我們大家就共同的去\n\n38\n00:13:41,869 --> 00:13:43,412\n讓我們可以在這個武器裝備上面尤其是潛艦大家好好的去監督然後也希望他可以做出一個好的潛艦好不好好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1351\t1972\t謝主席 麻煩請部長\n13709\t32009\t今天其實我覺得我們第一時間有點短在過去不管是業務報告或是年期國防總檢討這兩個非常大的議題其實從來沒有排在同一天過那其實這樣能夠探討的時間比較少不過我們也希望說未來\n32689\t51414\t召委可能還可以再排一些相關的時間可以讓大家可以充分的討論因為畢竟他對我們整體的國防的政策還有他未來的走向或者我們所有的預算的編列其實他都非常重要所以我們還是希望可以慎重那接下來我們看到最近的那個新聞裡面有看到這個\n62199\t70037\t中共方面對於資通電軍網路站連隊對陸作業我們不管這個新聞是真是假因為\n72880\t90720\t這個部分我們在今天的公開質詢就不討論他的內容不過我們要看一下他更深層的一個部分就是說他對岸公佈這些人的照片、姓名、性別、身份證等個資而且還指出其中的職位他甚至是負責人還有戰隊隊長\n94453\t99714\t這個部分如果我們要對我們單位的弟兄去著想的時候因為現在網路作戰它已經是一個常態或者甚至是非常重要的一環那他們在軍中不可能是終身職他不像其他一般的工作那如果他不適合或者說他離職以後這個部分他是被對岸終身追責所以這個部分可不可以考量他們可以向國安局或情報局的\n124440\t137075\t負責對陸人員一樣他用就是用別名去識別因為國防部對於這些相關人的作業人員應該提高他的國安等級的相關防護或者給予適當的鼓勵這個部分部長怎麼看\n141273\t155022\t這一點我同意這一點因為我想中電軍也是納入我們這個國家勤工法的相關的條文的使用所以我覺得不管他執行任務的安全要以保障那退離職會\n157563\t168929\t之後呢我應該也要提供這個有關一些相關的一些協助他們可能不是離職而已啊就是我們我們現在講的是包括我們的國安局國安單位的或者像一些情報人員其實他如果在從事這樣的工作的時候他不是用不是全部用真名應該要怎麼樣去保障他們的身份因為他一旦離職以後離職我們沒有辦法保護因為其實他被終身追責\n186338\t193424\t這個部分其實他只要不在我們的國內他可能會受到很大的威脅這個部分是不是也應該要重新去考量他們需要受到的防護或者應該要什麼樣的獎勵因為你畢竟要留人才其實也不容易這個部分請部長再針對這個部分可以再去做一些相關的研究好不好是那目前\n214187\t232151\t日前賴總統宣布剛剛其實委員也有委員提到就是全面檢討修正軍事審判法要恢復軍法的部分處理現役軍人涉犯叛亂利敵泄密廢止職務抗命等等這些跟軍事相關犯罪之刑事案件那未來現役軍人觸犯陸海空軍刑法之軍事犯罪案要交由軍事法院審判\n242304\t268656\t因為剛剛部長也做了一些說明我想請教的是因為本席或者一些相關的在國防部過去有很多包括部長包括一些相關的人員就是在管理階層其實他們也發現到軍紀一直沒有辦法很有效的去做一個管理其實可能\n269676\t280103\t在這個部分是不是應該要做什麼樣的一個修正可是當時我們看到其實包括賴總統包括顧部長您其實都說要審慎的評估甚至你還說到其實是不同意軍法復辟\n291351\t293976\t可是剛剛提到的 您提到的說怎麼樣去做它的修整它甚至不隸屬在國防部底下我想請教一下目前全世界有哪一個國家是用這樣的制度\n304810\t320941\t有嗎?全世界目前有哪一個國家是像剛剛部長您提到的是用另外一個審判的方式或者吝嗇一個軍事法庭之類的這樣的一個方式來做全世界目前有哪一個國家是這麼做?\n322669\t337966\t維持這個一般的司法跟軍事審判的國家在民主國家有美國英國加拿大以色列韓國跟新加坡等等他們都是怎麼做他們是用剛剛部長連說的方式是這樣子嗎這樣的制度嗎我想\n342324\t369712\t每一個國家的他的這個不是部長我現在只是說因為過去我們有軍閥可是在洪仲秋案的時候很多整個社會的氛圍讓他把這個軍閥去把它暫時當然還有可是平時已經是在一般法院剛剛部長提到的方式那樣子的制度我想請教目前全世界有哪一個國家是採取這樣子的一個制度方式目前\n372412\t378009\t呃我想不是軍保我說您剛剛提到的這樣子的方式目前有哪一個國家這麼做\n379000\t401789\t我想因為每個國家我們大致上法制上有分成英美法系跟大陸法系部長我沒有要討論這個部分這一塊在法律的部分上面大家很清楚我現在說的是您剛剛提到的制度現在目前在全世界的民主國家有哪一個國家是採取這樣的模式有嗎\n403570\t419093\t我想我們會去看看這個相關的這些大陸法系的國家他們所適用的如何維護這個軍法官他在審判當中的一個身份保障這個部分我們會來研究我們如果是自己又創立一個因為過去大家就是覺得尤其他是在國防部底下因為你是對現役軍人嘛我們來看一個影片好不好部長這個可能昨天看到的\n433192\t454582\t軍事法庭看到還蠻恐怖的\n455832\t476936\t部長您沒有不是現役軍人不可能會按照我們現在的所以他為什麼會有這種理解因為軍事法庭他審理的就是現役軍人現在對大家都是這麼說可是他的身份很特別他曾經他是民進黨很重要的一個政治評論員他出來講這樣的話甚至說這個如果牽涉到遣件或者牽涉到什麼共諜案\n484918\t500833\t在這裡我想要請教部長一個問題,當時黃曙光前召集人,黃曙光前總長,他講到一個跟中共相關的一個問題,他說有人把資料給了中共大使館,\n501914\t504515\t這個部分我不知道我們有沒有去追究這個部分因為中共大使館可見不是在中國大陸本土而是在其他的國家那到底是誰交給中共大使館或者這只是假的如果是假的就沒有馬文君牽涉到共諜的問題如果是真的那到底是誰\n524784\t534768\t如果我們可以查看看那時候我有沒有出國有沒有去這些相關的國家這是第一點如果像到中共大使館那個通常都會有監視器的你的資訊是怎麼樣獲得的這個部分請徹查清楚因為這牽涉到我們的資料\n545413\t555403\t是不是有外泄 如果你第一艘的潛艦資料都外泄你後面第二艘跟第八艘要怎麼繼續做或者你要從頭來過 這個都沒有交代清楚 可是我們預算已經編了第二個 這個政治評論員 他怎麼知道這個案子都沒有動為什麼他會知道 如果像這樣子拿國家的一個很重要的機密案\n571411\t577636\t他不知道真假甚至不懂潛艦他都可以大剌剌的從過去到現在至少已經講了快兩年他都不用負擔責任嗎你給社會大眾是什麼樣的一個認知這會不會影響我們所有整體的國防安全這個也請國防部再去了解一下最後不好意思跟委員跟召委接一點點時間我想請教部長\n596249\t601712\t第一艘潛艦原型艦它幾乎編列500億的預算有沒有被刪過一毛錢潛艦的預算當時在委員會裡面並沒有被刪都沒有被刪嗎?幾乎原型艦都沒有被刪過一毛錢當時明知道因為過去在民進黨完全執政的情況之下我們也知道只要提出這樣刪減案\n633560\t634402\t壞掉了\n641651\t648398\t抱歉部長我想在這裡只要做出澄清就是我們的原型艦從頭到尾沒有被刪過一毛錢對不對是總共493億如果連設計費30億還包括海軍的顧問費其實已經高達500多億那個連一毛錢都沒有被刪當時在\n662631\t666553\t民進黨完全執政的情況之下為什麼我們提刪減數包括我們在場的委員比較資深的就是我跟王定宇委員其實民進黨也有提刪減案高達三十幾億所以我們只是要監督預算當時我們也知道我們刪不了可是為什麼還是提刪動主要是如果沒有提案問題就沒有人會注意所以在這裡我們希望在立法院今天的委員會可以\n691943\t710035\t重新好好的澄清原型艦連一毛錢都沒有被刪過在過程當中大家都希望他可以做到好而且是可以維護我們國家安全是一個有效的一個防衛的武器攻擊武器所以在這裡謝謝部長然後我們今年編的預算其實也是凍結對不對\n716618\t732969\t就後續建的部分是要凍結50%嗎凍結50%對我們今年的影響並不會造成什麼樣的一個這個前進的玉山凍結主要它是要到院會做一個專報才能夠解凍這個部分好像還沒有潛力\n733949\t737013\t因為過去應該是委員會就可以去動因為當時大家的共識是你在原型件還沒做好然後就編了大額的預算他不是今年他不是20億他通過的是2840億14年的時間所以大家會比較慎重\n753092\t758739\t因為當時的共識是這樣部長您也同意說他通過海事以後再去動之這筆預算如果在11月他沒有辦法通過的時候他甚至連動都不能動也不該動所以其實我想大家應該在聚焦到怎麼樣讓我們可以獲得一個有效的\n772815\t798405\t還可以符合我們作戰需求裝備這樣子的一個立場我想大家都是一致的這個部分還是希望請部長可以去理解因為過去沒有潛力我們也是第一次造潛艦啊我們也沒有潛力啊所以沒關係就是都有第一次嘛後續艦的這個解凍我們不希望有太多的不確定性因為到院會去解凍這件事情\n799446\t821469\t如果在11月我們能夠順利交件我們當然是希望11月交件的時候我們連其他作業都來不及包括你作業費想要做什麼都來不及所以部長您放心這個沒有前例的情況之下因為我們也是第一次自己遣件國照嘛這也沒有前例我們大家就共同的去\n821869\t823412\t讓我們可以在這個武器裝備上面尤其是潛艦 大家好好的去監督然後也希望他可以做出一個好的潛艦 好不好好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝主席 麻煩請部長\n今天其實我覺得我們第一時間有點短在過去不管是業務報告或是年期國防總檢討這兩個非常大的議題其實從來沒有排在同一天過那其實這樣能夠探討的時間比較少不過我們也希望說未來\n召委可能還可以再排一些相關的時間可以讓大家可以充分的討論因為畢竟他對我們整體的國防的政策還有他未來的走向或者我們所有的預算的編列其實他都非常重要所以我們還是希望可以慎重那接下來我們看到最近的那個新聞裡面有看到這個\n中共方面對於資通電軍網路站連隊對陸作業我們不管這個新聞是真是假因為\n這個部分我們在今天的公開質詢就不討論他的內容不過我們要看一下他更深層的一個部分就是說他對岸公佈這些人的照片、姓名、性別、身份證等個資而且還指出其中的職位他甚至是負責人還有戰隊隊長\n這個部分如果我們要對我們單位的弟兄去著想的時候因為現在網路作戰它已經是一個常態或者甚至是非常重要的一環那他們在軍中不可能是終身職他不像其他一般的工作那如果他不適合或者說他離職以後這個部分他是被對岸終身追責所以這個部分可不可以考量他們可以向國安局或情報局的\n負責對陸人員一樣他用就是用別名去識別因為國防部對於這些相關人的作業人員應該提高他的國安等級的相關防護或者給予適當的鼓勵這個部分部長怎麼看\n這一點我同意這一點因為我想中電軍也是納入我們這個國家勤工法的相關的條文的使用所以我覺得不管他執行任務的安全要以保障那退離職會\n之後呢我應該也要提供這個有關一些相關的一些協助他們可能不是離職而已啊就是我們我們現在講的是包括我們的國安局國安單位的或者像一些情報人員其實他如果在從事這樣的工作的時候他不是用不是全部用真名應該要怎麼樣去保障他們的身份因為他一旦離職以後離職我們沒有辦法保護因為其實他被終身追責\n這個部分其實他只要不在我們的國內他可能會受到很大的威脅這個部分是不是也應該要重新去考量他們需要受到的防護或者應該要什麼樣的獎勵因為你畢竟要留人才其實也不容易這個部分請部長再針對這個部分可以再去做一些相關的研究好不好是那目前\n日前賴總統宣布剛剛其實委員也有委員提到就是全面檢討修正軍事審判法要恢復軍法的部分處理現役軍人涉犯叛亂利敵泄密廢止職務抗命等等這些跟軍事相關犯罪之刑事案件那未來現役軍人觸犯陸海空軍刑法之軍事犯罪案要交由軍事法院審判\n因為剛剛部長也做了一些說明我想請教的是因為本席或者一些相關的在國防部過去有很多包括部長包括一些相關的人員就是在管理階層其實他們也發現到軍紀一直沒有辦法很有效的去做一個管理其實可能\n在這個部分是不是應該要做什麼樣的一個修正可是當時我們看到其實包括賴總統包括顧部長您其實都說要審慎的評估甚至你還說到其實是不同意軍法復辟\n可是剛剛提到的 您提到的說怎麼樣去做它的修整它甚至不隸屬在國防部底下我想請教一下目前全世界有哪一個國家是用這樣的制度\n有嗎?全世界目前有哪一個國家是像剛剛部長您提到的是用另外一個審判的方式或者吝嗇一個軍事法庭之類的這樣的一個方式來做全世界目前有哪一個國家是這麼做?\n維持這個一般的司法跟軍事審判的國家在民主國家有美國英國加拿大以色列韓國跟新加坡等等他們都是怎麼做他們是用剛剛部長連說的方式是這樣子嗎這樣的制度嗎我想\n每一個國家的他的這個不是部長我現在只是說因為過去我們有軍閥可是在洪仲秋案的時候很多整個社會的氛圍讓他把這個軍閥去把它暫時當然還有可是平時已經是在一般法院剛剛部長提到的方式那樣子的制度我想請教目前全世界有哪一個國家是採取這樣子的一個制度方式目前\n呃我想不是軍保我說您剛剛提到的這樣子的方式目前有哪一個國家這麼做\n我想因為每個國家我們大致上法制上有分成英美法系跟大陸法系部長我沒有要討論這個部分這一塊在法律的部分上面大家很清楚我現在說的是您剛剛提到的制度現在目前在全世界的民主國家有哪一個國家是採取這樣的模式有嗎\n我想我們會去看看這個相關的這些大陸法系的國家他們所適用的如何維護這個軍法官他在審判當中的一個身份保障這個部分我們會來研究我們如果是自己又創立一個因為過去大家就是覺得尤其他是在國防部底下因為你是對現役軍人嘛我們來看一個影片好不好部長這個可能昨天看到的\n軍事法庭看到還蠻恐怖的\n部長您沒有不是現役軍人不可能會按照我們現在的所以他為什麼會有這種理解因為軍事法庭他審理的就是現役軍人現在對大家都是這麼說可是他的身份很特別他曾經他是民進黨很重要的一個政治評論員他出來講這樣的話甚至說這個如果牽涉到遣件或者牽涉到什麼共諜案\n在這裡我想要請教部長一個問題,當時黃曙光前召集人,黃曙光前總長,他講到一個跟中共相關的一個問題,他說有人把資料給了中共大使館,\n這個部分我不知道我們有沒有去追究這個部分因為中共大使館可見不是在中國大陸本土而是在其他的國家那到底是誰交給中共大使館或者這只是假的如果是假的就沒有馬文君牽涉到共諜的問題如果是真的那到底是誰\n如果我們可以查看看那時候我有沒有出國有沒有去這些相關的國家這是第一點如果像到中共大使館那個通常都會有監視器的你的資訊是怎麼樣獲得的這個部分請徹查清楚因為這牽涉到我們的資料\n是不是有外泄 如果你第一艘的潛艦資料都外泄你後面第二艘跟第八艘要怎麼繼續做或者你要從頭來過 這個都沒有交代清楚 可是我們預算已經編了第二個 這個政治評論員 他怎麼知道這個案子都沒有動為什麼他會知道 如果像這樣子拿國家的一個很重要的機密案\n他不知道真假甚至不懂潛艦他都可以大剌剌的從過去到現在至少已經講了快兩年他都不用負擔責任嗎你給社會大眾是什麼樣的一個認知這會不會影響我們所有整體的國防安全這個也請國防部再去了解一下最後不好意思跟委員跟召委接一點點時間我想請教部長\n第一艘潛艦原型艦它幾乎編列500億的預算有沒有被刪過一毛錢潛艦的預算當時在委員會裡面並沒有被刪都沒有被刪嗎?幾乎原型艦都沒有被刪過一毛錢當時明知道因為過去在民進黨完全執政的情況之下我們也知道只要提出這樣刪減案\n壞掉了\n抱歉部長我想在這裡只要做出澄清就是我們的原型艦從頭到尾沒有被刪過一毛錢對不對是總共493億如果連設計費30億還包括海軍的顧問費其實已經高達500多億那個連一毛錢都沒有被刪當時在\n民進黨完全執政的情況之下為什麼我們提刪減數包括我們在場的委員比較資深的就是我跟王定宇委員其實民進黨也有提刪減案高達三十幾億所以我們只是要監督預算當時我們也知道我們刪不了可是為什麼還是提刪動主要是如果沒有提案問題就沒有人會注意所以在這裡我們希望在立法院今天的委員會可以\n重新好好的澄清原型艦連一毛錢都沒有被刪過在過程當中大家都希望他可以做到好而且是可以維護我們國家安全是一個有效的一個防衛的武器攻擊武器所以在這裡謝謝部長然後我們今年編的預算其實也是凍結對不對\n就後續建的部分是要凍結50%嗎凍結50%對我們今年的影響並不會造成什麼樣的一個這個前進的玉山凍結主要它是要到院會做一個專報才能夠解凍這個部分好像還沒有潛力\n因為過去應該是委員會就可以去動因為當時大家的共識是你在原型件還沒做好然後就編了大額的預算他不是今年他不是20億他通過的是2840億14年的時間所以大家會比較慎重\n因為當時的共識是這樣部長您也同意說他通過海事以後再去動之這筆預算如果在11月他沒有辦法通過的時候他甚至連動都不能動也不該動所以其實我想大家應該在聚焦到怎麼樣讓我們可以獲得一個有效的\n還可以符合我們作戰需求裝備這樣子的一個立場我想大家都是一致的這個部分還是希望請部長可以去理解因為過去沒有潛力我們也是第一次造潛艦啊我們也沒有潛力啊所以沒關係就是都有第一次嘛後續艦的這個解凍我們不希望有太多的不確定性因為到院會去解凍這件事情\n如果在11月我們能夠順利交件我們當然是希望11月交件的時候我們連其他作業都來不及包括你作業費想要做什麼都來不及所以部長您放心這個沒有前例的情況之下因為我們也是第一次自己遣件國照嘛這也沒有前例我們大家就共同的去\n讓我們可以在這個武器裝備上面尤其是潛艦 大家好好的去監督然後也希望他可以做出一個好的潛艦 好不好好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.351 --> 00:01.972\n謝主席麻煩請部長\n\n00:13.709 --> 00:32.009\n今天其實我覺得我們第一時間有點短在過去不管是業務報告或是年期國防總檢討這兩個非常大的議題其實從來沒有排在同一天過那其實這樣能夠探討的時間比較少不過我們也希望說未來\n\n00:32.689 --> 00:51.414\n召委可能還可以再排一些相關的時間可以讓大家可以充分的討論因為畢竟他對我們整體的國防的政策還有他未來的走向或者我們所有的預算的編列其實他都非常重要所以我們還是希望可以慎重那接下來我們看到最近的那個新聞裡面有看到這個\n\n01:02.199 --> 01:10.037\n中共方面對於資通電軍網路站連隊對陸作業我們不管這個新聞是真是假因為\n\n01:12.880 --> 01:30.720\n這個部分我們在今天的公開質詢就不討論他的內容不過我們要看一下他更深層的一個部分就是說他對岸公佈這些人的照片、姓名、性別、身份證等個資而且還指出其中的職位他甚至是負責人還有戰隊隊長\n\n01:34.453 --> 01:39.714\n這個部分如果我們要對我們單位的弟兄去著想的時候因為現在網路作戰它已經是一個常態或者甚至是非常重要的一環那他們在軍中不可能是終身職他不像其他一般的工作那如果他不適合或者說他離職以後這個部分他是被對岸終身追責所以這個部分可不可以考量他們可以向國安局或情報局的\n\n02:04.440 --> 02:17.075\n負責對陸人員一樣他用就是用別名去識別因為國防部對於這些相關人的作業人員應該提高他的國安等級的相關防護或者給予適當的鼓勵這個部分部長怎麼看\n\n02:21.273 --> 02:35.022\n這一點我同意這一點因為我想中電軍也是納入我們這個國家勤工法的相關的條文的使用所以我覺得不管他執行任務的安全要以保障那退離職會\n\n02:37.563 --> 02:48.929\n之後呢我應該也要提供這個有關一些相關的一些協助他們可能不是離職而已啊就是我們我們現在講的是包括我們的國安局國安單位的或者像一些情報人員其實他如果在從事這樣的工作的時候他不是用不是全部用真名應該要怎麼樣去保障他們的身份因為他一旦離職以後離職我們沒有辦法保護因為其實他被終身追責\n\n03:06.338 --> 03:13.424\n這個部分其實他只要不在我們的國內他可能會受到很大的威脅這個部分是不是也應該要重新去考量他們需要受到的防護或者應該要什麼樣的獎勵因為你畢竟要留人才其實也不容易這個部分請部長再針對這個部分可以再去做一些相關的研究好不好是那目前\n\n03:34.187 --> 03:52.151\n日前賴總統宣布剛剛其實委員也有委員提到就是全面檢討修正軍事審判法要恢復軍法的部分處理現役軍人涉犯叛亂利敵泄密廢止職務抗命等等這些跟軍事相關犯罪之刑事案件那未來現役軍人觸犯陸海空軍刑法之軍事犯罪案要交由軍事法院審判\n\n04:02.304 --> 04:28.656\n因為剛剛部長也做了一些說明我想請教的是因為本席或者一些相關的在國防部過去有很多包括部長包括一些相關的人員就是在管理階層其實他們也發現到軍紀一直沒有辦法很有效的去做一個管理其實可能\n\n04:29.676 --> 04:40.103\n在這個部分是不是應該要做什麼樣的一個修正可是當時我們看到其實包括賴總統包括顧部長您其實都說要審慎的評估甚至你還說到其實是不同意軍法復辟\n\n04:51.351 --> 04:53.976\n可是剛剛提到的您提到的說怎麼樣去做它的修整它甚至不隸屬在國防部底下我想請教一下目前全世界有哪一個國家是用這樣的制度\n\n05:04.810 --> 05:20.941\n有嗎?全世界目前有哪一個國家是像剛剛部長您提到的是用另外一個審判的方式或者吝嗇一個軍事法庭之類的這樣的一個方式來做全世界目前有哪一個國家是這麼做?\n\n05:22.669 --> 05:37.966\n維持這個一般的司法跟軍事審判的國家在民主國家有美國英國加拿大以色列韓國跟新加坡等等他們都是怎麼做他們是用剛剛部長連說的方式是這樣子嗎這樣的制度嗎我想\n\n05:42.324 --> 06:09.712\n每一個國家的他的這個不是部長我現在只是說因為過去我們有軍閥可是在洪仲秋案的時候很多整個社會的氛圍讓他把這個軍閥去把它暫時當然還有可是平時已經是在一般法院剛剛部長提到的方式那樣子的制度我想請教目前全世界有哪一個國家是採取這樣子的一個制度方式目前\n\n06:12.412 --> 06:18.009\n呃我想不是軍保我說您剛剛提到的這樣子的方式目前有哪一個國家這麼做\n\n06:19.000 --> 06:41.789\n我想因為每個國家我們大致上法制上有分成英美法系跟大陸法系部長我沒有要討論這個部分這一塊在法律的部分上面大家很清楚我現在說的是您剛剛提到的制度現在目前在全世界的民主國家有哪一個國家是採取這樣的模式有嗎\n\n06:43.570 --> 06:59.093\n我想我們會去看看這個相關的這些大陸法系的國家他們所適用的如何維護這個軍法官他在審判當中的一個身份保障這個部分我們會來研究我們如果是自己又創立一個因為過去大家就是覺得尤其他是在國防部底下因為你是對現役軍人嘛我們來看一個影片好不好部長這個可能昨天看到的\n\n07:13.192 --> 07:34.582\n軍事法庭看到還蠻恐怖的\n\n07:35.832 --> 07:56.936\n部長您沒有不是現役軍人不可能會按照我們現在的所以他為什麼會有這種理解因為軍事法庭他審理的就是現役軍人現在對大家都是這麼說可是他的身份很特別他曾經他是民進黨很重要的一個政治評論員他出來講這樣的話甚至說這個如果牽涉到遣件或者牽涉到什麼共諜案\n\n08:04.918 --> 08:20.833\n在這裡我想要請教部長一個問題,當時黃曙光前召集人,黃曙光前總長,他講到一個跟中共相關的一個問題,他說有人把資料給了中共大使館,\n\n08:21.914 --> 08:24.515\n這個部分我不知道我們有沒有去追究這個部分因為中共大使館可見不是在中國大陸本土而是在其他的國家那到底是誰交給中共大使館或者這只是假的如果是假的就沒有馬文君牽涉到共諜的問題如果是真的那到底是誰\n\n08:44.784 --> 08:54.768\n如果我們可以查看看那時候我有沒有出國有沒有去這些相關的國家這是第一點如果像到中共大使館那個通常都會有監視器的你的資訊是怎麼樣獲得的這個部分請徹查清楚因為這牽涉到我們的資料\n\n09:05.413 --> 09:15.403\n是不是有外泄如果你第一艘的潛艦資料都外泄你後面第二艘跟第八艘要怎麼繼續做或者你要從頭來過這個都沒有交代清楚可是我們預算已經編了第二個這個政治評論員他怎麼知道這個案子都沒有動為什麼他會知道如果像這樣子拿國家的一個很重要的機密案\n\n09:31.411 --> 09:37.636\n他不知道真假甚至不懂潛艦他都可以大剌剌的從過去到現在至少已經講了快兩年他都不用負擔責任嗎你給社會大眾是什麼樣的一個認知這會不會影響我們所有整體的國防安全這個也請國防部再去了解一下最後不好意思跟委員跟召委接一點點時間我想請教部長\n\n09:56.249 --> 10:01.712\n第一艘潛艦原型艦它幾乎編列500億的預算有沒有被刪過一毛錢潛艦的預算當時在委員會裡面並沒有被刪都沒有被刪嗎?幾乎原型艦都沒有被刪過一毛錢當時明知道因為過去在民進黨完全執政的情況之下我們也知道只要提出這樣刪減案\n\n10:33.560 --> 10:34.402\n壞掉了\n\n10:41.651 --> 10:48.398\n抱歉部長我想在這裡只要做出澄清就是我們的原型艦從頭到尾沒有被刪過一毛錢對不對是總共493億如果連設計費30億還包括海軍的顧問費其實已經高達500多億那個連一毛錢都沒有被刪當時在\n\n11:02.631 --> 11:06.553\n民進黨完全執政的情況之下為什麼我們提刪減數包括我們在場的委員比較資深的就是我跟王定宇委員其實民進黨也有提刪減案高達三十幾億所以我們只是要監督預算當時我們也知道我們刪不了可是為什麼還是提刪動主要是如果沒有提案問題就沒有人會注意所以在這裡我們希望在立法院今天的委員會可以\n\n11:31.943 --> 11:50.035\n重新好好的澄清原型艦連一毛錢都沒有被刪過在過程當中大家都希望他可以做到好而且是可以維護我們國家安全是一個有效的一個防衛的武器攻擊武器所以在這裡謝謝部長然後我們今年編的預算其實也是凍結對不對\n\n11:56.618 --> 12:12.969\n就後續建的部分是要凍結50%嗎凍結50%對我們今年的影響並不會造成什麼樣的一個這個前進的玉山凍結主要它是要到院會做一個專報才能夠解凍這個部分好像還沒有潛力\n\n12:13.949 --> 12:17.013\n因為過去應該是委員會就可以去動因為當時大家的共識是你在原型件還沒做好然後就編了大額的預算他不是今年他不是20億他通過的是2840億14年的時間所以大家會比較慎重\n\n12:33.092 --> 12:38.739\n因為當時的共識是這樣部長您也同意說他通過海事以後再去動之這筆預算如果在11月他沒有辦法通過的時候他甚至連動都不能動也不該動所以其實我想大家應該在聚焦到怎麼樣讓我們可以獲得一個有效的\n\n12:52.815 --> 13:18.405\n還可以符合我們作戰需求裝備這樣子的一個立場我想大家都是一致的這個部分還是希望請部長可以去理解因為過去沒有潛力我們也是第一次造潛艦啊我們也沒有潛力啊所以沒關係就是都有第一次嘛後續艦的這個解凍我們不希望有太多的不確定性因為到院會去解凍這件事情\n\n13:19.446 --> 13:41.469\n如果在11月我們能夠順利交件我們當然是希望11月交件的時候我們連其他作業都來不及包括你作業費想要做什麼都來不及所以部長您放心這個沒有前例的情況之下因為我們也是第一次自己遣件國照嘛這也沒有前例我們大家就共同的去\n\n13:41.869 --> 13:43.412\n讓我們可以在這個武器裝備上面尤其是潛艦大家好好的去監督然後也希望他可以做出一個好的潛艦好不好好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.351,"end":1.972,"text":"謝主席 麻煩請部長"},{"start":13.709,"end":32.009,"text":"今天其實我覺得我們第一時間有點短在過去不管是業務報告或是年期國防總檢討這兩個非常大的議題其實從來沒有排在同一天過那其實這樣能夠探討的時間比較少不過我們也希望說未來"},{"start":32.689,"end":51.414,"text":"召委可能還可以再排一些相關的時間可以讓大家可以充分的討論因為畢竟他對我們整體的國防的政策還有他未來的走向或者我們所有的預算的編列其實他都非常重要所以我們還是希望可以慎重那接下來我們看到最近的那個新聞裡面有看到這個"},{"start":62.199,"end":70.037,"text":"中共方面對於資通電軍網路站連隊對陸作業我們不管這個新聞是真是假因為"},{"start":72.88,"end":90.72,"text":"這個部分我們在今天的公開質詢就不討論他的內容不過我們要看一下他更深層的一個部分就是說他對岸公佈這些人的照片、姓名、性別、身份證等個資而且還指出其中的職位他甚至是負責人還有戰隊隊長"},{"start":94.453,"end":99.714,"text":"這個部分如果我們要對我們單位的弟兄去著想的時候因為現在網路作戰它已經是一個常態或者甚至是非常重要的一環那他們在軍中不可能是終身職他不像其他一般的工作那如果他不適合或者說他離職以後這個部分他是被對岸終身追責所以這個部分可不可以考量他們可以向國安局或情報局的"},{"start":124.44,"end":137.075,"text":"負責對陸人員一樣他用就是用別名去識別因為國防部對於這些相關人的作業人員應該提高他的國安等級的相關防護或者給予適當的鼓勵這個部分部長怎麼看"},{"start":141.273,"end":155.022,"text":"這一點我同意這一點因為我想中電軍也是納入我們這個國家勤工法的相關的條文的使用所以我覺得不管他執行任務的安全要以保障那退離職會"},{"start":157.563,"end":168.929,"text":"之後呢我應該也要提供這個有關一些相關的一些協助他們可能不是離職而已啊就是我們我們現在講的是包括我們的國安局國安單位的或者像一些情報人員其實他如果在從事這樣的工作的時候他不是用不是全部用真名應該要怎麼樣去保障他們的身份因為他一旦離職以後離職我們沒有辦法保護因為其實他被終身追責"},{"start":186.338,"end":193.424,"text":"這個部分其實他只要不在我們的國內他可能會受到很大的威脅這個部分是不是也應該要重新去考量他們需要受到的防護或者應該要什麼樣的獎勵因為你畢竟要留人才其實也不容易這個部分請部長再針對這個部分可以再去做一些相關的研究好不好是那目前"},{"start":214.187,"end":232.151,"text":"日前賴總統宣布剛剛其實委員也有委員提到就是全面檢討修正軍事審判法要恢復軍法的部分處理現役軍人涉犯叛亂利敵泄密廢止職務抗命等等這些跟軍事相關犯罪之刑事案件那未來現役軍人觸犯陸海空軍刑法之軍事犯罪案要交由軍事法院審判"},{"start":242.304,"end":268.656,"text":"因為剛剛部長也做了一些說明我想請教的是因為本席或者一些相關的在國防部過去有很多包括部長包括一些相關的人員就是在管理階層其實他們也發現到軍紀一直沒有辦法很有效的去做一個管理其實可能"},{"start":269.676,"end":280.103,"text":"在這個部分是不是應該要做什麼樣的一個修正可是當時我們看到其實包括賴總統包括顧部長您其實都說要審慎的評估甚至你還說到其實是不同意軍法復辟"},{"start":291.351,"end":293.976,"text":"可是剛剛提到的 您提到的說怎麼樣去做它的修整它甚至不隸屬在國防部底下我想請教一下目前全世界有哪一個國家是用這樣的制度"},{"start":304.81,"end":320.941,"text":"有嗎?全世界目前有哪一個國家是像剛剛部長您提到的是用另外一個審判的方式或者吝嗇一個軍事法庭之類的這樣的一個方式來做全世界目前有哪一個國家是這麼做?"},{"start":322.669,"end":337.966,"text":"維持這個一般的司法跟軍事審判的國家在民主國家有美國英國加拿大以色列韓國跟新加坡等等他們都是怎麼做他們是用剛剛部長連說的方式是這樣子嗎這樣的制度嗎我想"},{"start":342.324,"end":369.712,"text":"每一個國家的他的這個不是部長我現在只是說因為過去我們有軍閥可是在洪仲秋案的時候很多整個社會的氛圍讓他把這個軍閥去把它暫時當然還有可是平時已經是在一般法院剛剛部長提到的方式那樣子的制度我想請教目前全世界有哪一個國家是採取這樣子的一個制度方式目前"},{"start":372.412,"end":378.009,"text":"呃我想不是軍保我說您剛剛提到的這樣子的方式目前有哪一個國家這麼做"},{"start":379,"end":401.789,"text":"我想因為每個國家我們大致上法制上有分成英美法系跟大陸法系部長我沒有要討論這個部分這一塊在法律的部分上面大家很清楚我現在說的是您剛剛提到的制度現在目前在全世界的民主國家有哪一個國家是採取這樣的模式有嗎"},{"start":403.57,"end":419.093,"text":"我想我們會去看看這個相關的這些大陸法系的國家他們所適用的如何維護這個軍法官他在審判當中的一個身份保障這個部分我們會來研究我們如果是自己又創立一個因為過去大家就是覺得尤其他是在國防部底下因為你是對現役軍人嘛我們來看一個影片好不好部長這個可能昨天看到的"},{"start":433.192,"end":454.582,"text":"軍事法庭看到還蠻恐怖的"},{"start":455.832,"end":476.936,"text":"部長您沒有不是現役軍人不可能會按照我們現在的所以他為什麼會有這種理解因為軍事法庭他審理的就是現役軍人現在對大家都是這麼說可是他的身份很特別他曾經他是民進黨很重要的一個政治評論員他出來講這樣的話甚至說這個如果牽涉到遣件或者牽涉到什麼共諜案"},{"start":484.918,"end":500.833,"text":"在這裡我想要請教部長一個問題,當時黃曙光前召集人,黃曙光前總長,他講到一個跟中共相關的一個問題,他說有人把資料給了中共大使館,"},{"start":501.914,"end":504.515,"text":"這個部分我不知道我們有沒有去追究這個部分因為中共大使館可見不是在中國大陸本土而是在其他的國家那到底是誰交給中共大使館或者這只是假的如果是假的就沒有馬文君牽涉到共諜的問題如果是真的那到底是誰"},{"start":524.784,"end":534.768,"text":"如果我們可以查看看那時候我有沒有出國有沒有去這些相關的國家這是第一點如果像到中共大使館那個通常都會有監視器的你的資訊是怎麼樣獲得的這個部分請徹查清楚因為這牽涉到我們的資料"},{"start":545.413,"end":555.403,"text":"是不是有外泄 如果你第一艘的潛艦資料都外泄你後面第二艘跟第八艘要怎麼繼續做或者你要從頭來過 這個都沒有交代清楚 可是我們預算已經編了第二個 這個政治評論員 他怎麼知道這個案子都沒有動為什麼他會知道 如果像這樣子拿國家的一個很重要的機密案"},{"start":571.411,"end":577.636,"text":"他不知道真假甚至不懂潛艦他都可以大剌剌的從過去到現在至少已經講了快兩年他都不用負擔責任嗎你給社會大眾是什麼樣的一個認知這會不會影響我們所有整體的國防安全這個也請國防部再去了解一下最後不好意思跟委員跟召委接一點點時間我想請教部長"},{"start":596.249,"end":601.712,"text":"第一艘潛艦原型艦它幾乎編列500億的預算有沒有被刪過一毛錢潛艦的預算當時在委員會裡面並沒有被刪都沒有被刪嗎?幾乎原型艦都沒有被刪過一毛錢當時明知道因為過去在民進黨完全執政的情況之下我們也知道只要提出這樣刪減案"},{"start":633.56,"end":634.402,"text":"壞掉了"},{"start":641.651,"end":648.398,"text":"抱歉部長我想在這裡只要做出澄清就是我們的原型艦從頭到尾沒有被刪過一毛錢對不對是總共493億如果連設計費30億還包括海軍的顧問費其實已經高達500多億那個連一毛錢都沒有被刪當時在"},{"start":662.631,"end":666.553,"text":"民進黨完全執政的情況之下為什麼我們提刪減數包括我們在場的委員比較資深的就是我跟王定宇委員其實民進黨也有提刪減案高達三十幾億所以我們只是要監督預算當時我們也知道我們刪不了可是為什麼還是提刪動主要是如果沒有提案問題就沒有人會注意所以在這裡我們希望在立法院今天的委員會可以"},{"start":691.943,"end":710.035,"text":"重新好好的澄清原型艦連一毛錢都沒有被刪過在過程當中大家都希望他可以做到好而且是可以維護我們國家安全是一個有效的一個防衛的武器攻擊武器所以在這裡謝謝部長然後我們今年編的預算其實也是凍結對不對"},{"start":716.618,"end":732.969,"text":"就後續建的部分是要凍結50%嗎凍結50%對我們今年的影響並不會造成什麼樣的一個這個前進的玉山凍結主要它是要到院會做一個專報才能夠解凍這個部分好像還沒有潛力"},{"start":733.949,"end":737.013,"text":"因為過去應該是委員會就可以去動因為當時大家的共識是你在原型件還沒做好然後就編了大額的預算他不是今年他不是20億他通過的是2840億14年的時間所以大家會比較慎重"},{"start":753.092,"end":758.739,"text":"因為當時的共識是這樣部長您也同意說他通過海事以後再去動之這筆預算如果在11月他沒有辦法通過的時候他甚至連動都不能動也不該動所以其實我想大家應該在聚焦到怎麼樣讓我們可以獲得一個有效的"},{"start":772.815,"end":798.405,"text":"還可以符合我們作戰需求裝備這樣子的一個立場我想大家都是一致的這個部分還是希望請部長可以去理解因為過去沒有潛力我們也是第一次造潛艦啊我們也沒有潛力啊所以沒關係就是都有第一次嘛後續艦的這個解凍我們不希望有太多的不確定性因為到院會去解凍這件事情"},{"start":799.446,"end":821.469,"text":"如果在11月我們能夠順利交件我們當然是希望11月交件的時候我們連其他作業都來不及包括你作業費想要做什麼都來不及所以部長您放心這個沒有前例的情況之下因為我們也是第一次自己遣件國照嘛這也沒有前例我們大家就共同的去"},{"start":821.869,"end":823.412,"text":"讓我們可以在這個武器裝備上面尤其是潛艦 大家好好的去監督然後也希望他可以做出一個好的潛艦 好不好好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":226,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（9時46分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["顧部長立雄：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長早。今天我覺得時間有點短，過去不管是業務報告，或是四年期國防總檢討，這兩個非常大的議題從來沒有排在同一天過，所以能夠探討的時間比較少，不過我們也希望未來召委可以再安排時間讓大家可以充分的討論，畢竟這對我們整體國防的政策、未來的走向，或者所有預算的編列都非常的重要，所以還是希望可以慎重。","接下來，我們看到最近新聞提及中共方面對於資通電軍網路戰聯隊的對陸作業，不管新聞是真是假，在今天公開質詢就不討論它的內容，不過我們要看更深層的部分，對岸公布這些人的照片、姓名、性別、身分證等個資，而且還指出其中的職位，甚至是負責人，還有戰隊隊長，如果要為我們單位的弟兄著想，現在網路作戰已經是一個常態，或者甚至是非常重要的一環，他們在軍中不可能是終身職，這不像其他一般的工作，如果他不適合或者離職以後，他被對岸終身追責，所以可不可以考量讓他們可以像國安局或情報局負責對陸的人員一樣用別名去識別，國防部對於這些相關作業人員應該提高國安等級的防護，或者給予適當的鼓勵，這個部分部長怎麼看？"],["顧部長立雄：這一點我同意，因為資通電軍也是納入我們國家情工法相關條文的適用，所以不管是執行任務的安全應予以保障，退離職之後應該也要提供相關協助。"],["馬委員文君：他可能不是離職而已啊！包括我們的國安局、國安單位，或者情報人員，其實他們在從事相關工作的時候，也不是全部用真名，應該要怎麼樣保障他們的身分？因為他們是被終身追責，一旦離職以後，我們沒有辦法保護，只要不在我們國內，可能會受到很大的威脅，這部分是不是也應該要重新考量他們需要受到的防護或者什麼樣的獎勵？畢竟要留人才，其實也不容易，請部長針對這個部分再去做相關的研究，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["馬委員文君：剛剛也有委員提到，日前賴總統宣布全面檢討修正軍事審判法，要恢復軍法，處理現役軍人涉犯叛亂、利敵、洩密、廢弛職務、抗命等等跟軍事相關犯罪之刑事案件，未來現役軍人觸犯「陸海空軍刑法」之軍事犯罪案要交由軍事法院審判，剛剛部長也做了一些說明，想請教的是，本席獲知國防部過去有很多管理階層，包括部長及相關的人員，發現到軍紀一直沒有辦法很有效的管理，這個部分是不是應該做什麼樣的修正？當時看到包括賴總統、顧部長您都說要審慎的評估，甚至您還說不同意軍法復辟，可是剛剛您提到它要怎麼修整，甚至不隸屬在國防部底下，想請教一下目前全世界有哪一個國家是用這樣的制度？有嗎？就是像剛剛部長提到的用另外審判的方式，或者另設軍事法庭之類的方式，全世界目前有哪個國家是這樣做？"],["顧部長立雄：維持一般的司法跟軍事審判的國家，在民主國家有美國、英國、加拿大、以色列、韓國跟新加坡等等，都有。"],["馬委員文君：他們都是怎麼做？是剛剛部長您說的方式，是這樣子的制度嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：每一個國家它的………"],["馬委員文君：不是，部長，因為過去我們有軍法，可是在洪仲丘案的時候，整個社會的氛圍讓軍法……當然戰時還有，可是平時已經在一般法院，請教目前全世界有哪一個國家是採取剛剛部長您提到的制度、方式？不是軍法哦，關於您剛剛提到這樣子的方式，目前有哪一個國家這麼做？"],["顧部長立雄：因為每個國家……在法制上大致有分成英美法系跟大陸法系……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我沒有要討論這個部分，這一塊在法律的部分大家都很清楚。我現在說的是您剛剛提到的制度，目前在全世界的民主國家有哪一個國家是採取這樣的模式，有嗎？有嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們會去看看大陸法系國家所適用的，他們如何維護軍法官在審判當中的身分保障，這個部分我們會來研究，那我們現在……"],["馬委員文君：我們如果是自己又創立一個……因為過去大家就是覺得……尤其它是在國防部底下，因為你是對現役軍人，我們來看一個影片，好不好？部長，這個可能是昨天看到的軍事法庭。","（播放影片）"],["馬委員文君：看到還蠻恐怖的，部長。"],["顧部長立雄：您又不是現役軍人，不可能會按照我們現在的軍審……"],["馬委員文君：所以他為什麼會有這種理解，因為軍事法庭審理的就是現役軍人，現在對大家都是這麼說，可是他的身分很特別，他是民進黨很重要的政治評論員，他出來講這樣的話，甚至說這個如果牽涉到潛艦，或者牽涉到什麼共諜案，在這裡我想要請教部長一個問題，當時黃曙光前召集人、黃曙光前總長講到一個跟中共相關的問題，他說有人把資料給了中共大使館，這個部分我不知道有沒有去追究這個部分，因為是中共大使館，可見不是在中國大陸本土而是在其他的國家，到底是誰交給中共大使館或者這只是假的？如果這是假的，就沒有馬文君牽涉到共諜的問題；如果是真的，到底是誰？我們可以查看看那時候我有沒有出國、有沒有去這些相關的國家，這是第一點，如果是到中共大使館，那個通常都會有監視器的，你的資訊是怎麼樣獲得的，這個部分請徹查清楚，因為這牽涉到我們的機密資料是不是有外洩，如果你第一艘的潛艦資料都外洩，你後面第二艘跟第八艘要怎麼繼續做，或者你要從頭來過？這個都沒有交代清楚，可是我們預算已經編了。","第二個，這個政治評論員怎麼知道這個案子都沒有動？為什麼他會知道？如果像這樣的一個很重要的國家機密案，他不知道真假，甚至不懂潛艦，他都可以大剌剌地從過去到現在至少已經講了快要兩年，他都不用負擔責任嗎？給社會大眾是什麼樣的認知、會不會影響我們所有整體的國防安全？這個也請國防部再去了解一下。最後，不好意思，跟召委借一點點時間，我想請教部長，第一艘潛艦原型艦編列500億的預算有沒有被刪過一毛錢？"],["顧部長立雄：潛艦的預算當時在委員會裡面並沒有被刪。"],["馬委員文君：都沒有被刪嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：原型艦的部分。"],["馬委員文君：原型艦幾乎都沒有被刪過一毛錢，當時明知道因為過去在民進黨完全執政的情況之下，我們也知道只要提出這樣的刪減案，尤其是大額的刪減……","不好意思，為什麼要切斷？"],["主席：麥克風壞掉了，請拿無線麥克風。"],["馬委員文君：抱歉！部長，我想在這裡只要做出澄清，就是原型艦從頭到尾沒有被刪過一毛錢，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["馬委員文君：總共493億，如果連設計費30億，還包括海軍的顧問費，其實已經高達五百多億，連一毛錢都沒有被刪。當時在民進黨完全執政的情況之下，為什麼我們提刪減數？包括在場的委員，比較資深的就是我跟王定宇委員，其實民進黨也有提刪減案，高達三十幾億，所以我們只是要監督預算，當時我們也知道我們刪不了，可是為什麼還是提刪凍？主要是如果沒有提案，問題就沒有人會注意，所以在這裡我們希望在立法院今天的委員會可以重新好好的澄清，原型艦連一毛錢都沒有被刪過，在過程當中，大家都希望它可以做到好，而且是可以維護我們國家安全，是一個有效的防衛武器、攻擊武器，所以在這裡謝謝部長，然後我們今年編的預算其實也是凍結，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：就後續艦的部分是要凍結50%。"],["馬委員文君：凍結50%對我們今年的影響並不會造成什麼樣的一個……"],["顧部長立雄：這個潛艦的預算凍結主要是要到院會做專報才能夠解凍，這個部分好像還沒有前例，因為過去應該是委員會就可以解凍。"],["馬委員文君：對，部長，因為當時大家的共識是你在原型艦還沒做好，就編了大額的預算，它不是20億，它通過的是2,840億、14年的時間，所以大家會比較慎重。當時的共識是這樣，部長，您也同意它通過海試以後再去動支這筆預算，如果11月它沒有辦法通過，它甚至連動都不能動，也不該動。所以我想大家應該聚焦到怎麼樣讓我們可以獲得一個有效且可以符合我們作戰需求的裝備，這樣的立場我想大家都是一致的，這個部分還是希望請部長可以理解，因為過去沒有前例，我們也是第一次造潛艦，我們也沒有前例啊！所以沒關係，就是都有第一次嘛！好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：不過就後續艦的解凍，我們不希望有太多的不確定性，因為到院會解凍這件事情……如果11月我們能夠順利交艦，我們當然是希望，因為台船……"],["馬委員文君：11月交艦的時候，我們連其他作業都來不及，包括作業費等，想要做什麼都來不及，所以部長您放心，在沒有前例的情況之下，我們也是第一次自己潛艦國造，這也沒有前例，就讓我們可以在武器裝備上面，尤其是潛艦，大家共同好好的去監督，然後也希望它可以做出一艘好的潛艦，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝委員。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬委員。","大家等我們一下，我們先測試一下麥克風，看起來麥克風壞掉了。","我們接下來請王定宇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":316,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-4","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","徐巧芯","李坤城","邱志偉","蔡易餘","林憶君","蘇清泉","王鴻薇"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況暨「四年期國防總檢討」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00016"}}}