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\"start\": 778.037, \"end\": 778.157, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 778.157, \"end\": 778.177, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 778.177, \"end\": 778.198, \"score\": 0.003}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"趙\"}, {\"word\": \"偉\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,170 --> 00:00:01,015\n麻煩部長有請部長\n\n2\n00:00:12,233 --> 00:00:35,441\n第一個我們看到昨天美國國務院他其實是大概近幾年來口氣最重的來批判中國解放軍在2月26號無預警的在屏東外海74公里的地方臨時突然的劃設一個實彈的操演區域他把聯合戰備警巡團轉做實彈軍演\n\n3\n00:00:37,722 --> 00:00:59,835\n那其實在那一個禮拜我們看了一下資料2月19號共軍在台海進行聯合戰備警巡大概每一週都一次但是21號在第二島鏈塔斯曼海域也就是澳洲跟紐西蘭中間他們在那邊也是進行實戰軍演而且真的是在澳洲的大門口開了炮2月25號\n\n4\n00:01:02,116 --> 00:01:20,589\n共軍派出南部軍區的一個海軍支隊來到越南跟菲律賓之間的南海進行實彈演練那26號就突然間在高雄屏東外海40海里大概74公里的地方無預警的突然宣布了一個射擊訓練的場域等等\n\n5\n00:01:21,687 --> 00:01:44,683\n那這是2月份大概從19號到26號發生的事情昨天3月18號不知道是約好的還是國際的共識之前那個操演是讓世界各國都予以譴責支持台海的和平穩定澳洲對中國也展示了一個抗議的態度但昨天18號國務院\n\n6\n00:01:47,506 --> 00:02:06,926\n重批中國做出的是個魯莽不負責任的動作而且支持台灣一切的自我防衛的措施瑞士更特別瑞士是一個永久中立國罕見到瑞士的外交部長外交部長發言就代表國家\n\n7\n00:02:07,847 --> 00:02:24,422\n他不僅表達譴責這樣的行為支持台海的和平穩定南海第一島鏈等地方的和平以外瑞士還表達說他們有把中國駐瑞士大使館的人叫來罵就表達他們的嚴正立場然後我們台灣的國防部在3月17號\n\n8\n00:02:26,192 --> 00:02:45,813\n大概這個是第二次的立即備戰操演去年12月其實有一次了立即備戰操演我看媒體寫都說這個禮拜是第一次應該是去年的12月21日左右是第一次那立即備戰操演本席是支持這個做法也就是當威脅方有可能由演轉戰\n\n9\n00:02:47,415 --> 00:03:02,360\n那我們的陸海空軍就要有能力從平時轉為戰備轉為備戰狀態所以這一個3月17號部長在今年度有人說小汗光宣布了立即備戰操演我的問題是\n\n10\n00:03:04,229 --> 00:03:22,219\n解放軍是不是有什麼徵後或者你們有什麼樣的情資見到什麼樣的危險徵後必須進行這樣子的嚇阻包含國際上力量部長可以說就說或者不清楚不清楚我們看到這個局勢那你宣布在3月17號開始立即備戰操演\n\n11\n00:03:25,532 --> 00:03:46,282\n是有什麼樣的情誌跟徵後嗎?3月17號到21號這個是屬於計畫性的備戰草原它是預定的?對那非計畫性的備戰草原就是如剛剛委員所提到如果它實施一個針對性的一個軍事草原的這個活動那我們會按照它的這個\n\n12\n00:03:47,392 --> 00:04:10,168\n操演的強度,我們現在有一個灰色地帶應儲的一個地中高那我們就會想由總統下令之後我們就會進行一個立即備戰操演來做一個對應也就是說由指揮官下定這個他們操演的可能的狀況讓我們也立即做出回應來訓練我們的那個是由參謀本部直接來處理還是交給各作戰區\n\n13\n00:04:11,249 --> 00:04:28,292\n由總統下令然後各州安區層級以下要做立即陪戰朝延的一個動作那等於是把敵情也就是說解放軍的動作如果有針對性的我們會做對應的動作我們針對我們所獲得的這一些相關的一些\n\n14\n00:04:29,413 --> 00:04:56,156\n秦先生所獲得的情誌然後由指揮官他自己去想定可能發生的一些情況他如何要進行因應這個部分做一個這樣子來強化他的一個一個實戰化的訓練這對我們國軍的戰力實戰化訓練是有幫助的目前舊國防部的監測狀況解放軍不管在人員物資各方面的動作上有沒有異狀\n\n15\n00:04:58,358 --> 00:05:11,247\n在禮拜一嘛就禮拜一嘛禮拜一他聯合戰備警巡那這個聯合戰備警巡當然首見的就是說他是在上午的時候\n\n16\n00:05:12,748 --> 00:05:31,616\n從六點多開始實施過一次然後到下午的應該是兩點他又再實施一次那所以這個是一個比較首度看到的一個狀況所以當然我們剛好也在實施栗子集備戰草原所以可以剛好做相對應的動作全市或去定義他們的聯合戰備組決心的要求\n\n17\n00:05:40,979 --> 00:05:56,548\n這個我們有看到這個中國的外交部好像有在回應這個這應該都是套好的吧就是說他問一個問題然後他就回答說因為國務院這個對於下架的那個\n\n18\n00:05:57,745 --> 00:06:25,879\n不支持台獨的那個部分他認為是境外的勢力來所以他當然他們永遠都套好的啦但他把這個軍事動作詮釋為對G7對美國的一些外交的回應他的記者會當然很長啦有很多的問題那他特別有一題是說他的從事的這個操演\n\n19\n00:06:27,140 --> 00:06:50,353\n主要的針對是什麼?那一題他的回答是說他是針對美國他針對所以國務院18號也譴責他盧莽不負責任但是我現在回到這個國務院的回應也是第一次看到美國國務院這一次講的比較重用這個所謂明目張膽且不負責任的這個而且他後面多一個就是支持就全面支持台灣的自我防衛但是\n\n20\n00:06:51,514 --> 00:07:16,469\n剛才講的是政治外交上的定義我的意思是說他聯合戰備警巡罕見的變成上午一次凌晨一次下午一次在軍事上你們認為他在幹嘛我我們我們有各種可能的判斷那他這樣的一個兩次的聯合戰備警巡如果從這一次看起來的話應該他\n\n21\n00:07:20,211 --> 00:07:39,715\n他特別外交部在回應的時候他講說這是一個軍事行動那事實上他是一個操演所以我認為他在現實的這個狀況之下現在這個狀況之下他能夠做到的程度是在這一個兩次的聯合戰備進行的情況之下加強他的這個強度來回應當下的這個形勢所以我們\n\n22\n00:07:47,878 --> 00:08:08,195\n當然還是不能夠掉以輕心啦不過看起來他一定要對這個相關現在的這個有關您剛剛提到的G7也好美日這個峰會所表達對台灣的知己也好還有這個美國國務院這個相關的動作也好他一定要做一些回應\n\n23\n00:08:16,603 --> 00:08:30,376\n我們現在所謂的軍審第一個軍法從來沒有停過陸海空軍刑法一直是在試用當中只是在馬政府時期把它改到一般的檢察官一般的法院去做處理\n\n24\n00:08:32,358 --> 00:08:54,550\n部長我這樣詮釋沒有錯嘛軍閥沒有廢過啦人家說要恢復軍閥軍閥一直都在那裡就實體法它是一直是存在的那程序法它變成二元化了也就是說它平時移到一般司法機關暫時還要恢復那所以這個地方有一直在講說那為什麼要這樣這個是不是這樣子\n\n25\n00:08:57,778 --> 00:09:25,670\n當然一直在質疑我啦那我要說明的就是說從我們國防部的立場來看的話我們要平時如果不打造一個軍事審判的一個制度的話就在那暫時的時候幾乎沒有辦法運作老闆娘部長我在這個委員會十年左右了從大概每一年我都會聽到不同黨派的委員呼籲把軍審制度恢復也就是用軍事檢察官\n\n26\n00:09:26,810 --> 00:09:51,459\n軍事審判來處理軍人這樣可以維持紀律維持管理大概我們如果在這委員會時間夠久的話每一年都會聽到也會看到一些提案那這一次我看賴清德總統提出來的第一個他是限縮限縮軍人涉犯國安軍事犯罪才會採取軍事審判的程序那第二個呢這個還要國會修法\n\n27\n00:09:52,139 --> 00:10:15,514\n要經過立法院修法那我看行政院長說這個修法呢一個月內會把他review那我們私底下討論過我看到那個一個月內要把所有配套的法要擬出來其實那個是很多很多套法比我們想像多太多因為很多新的犯罪樣態刑法的修改你要對接那個你們一個月內可以提出修法的計畫嗎\n\n28\n00:10:17,233 --> 00:10:42,379\n我們會提出一個修法的綱要綱要就很難了那個量很大所以其實限縮在軍人涉犯軍事犯罪國安犯罪那這個原因也是來自於中國對台灣的滲透不管是共諜案泄密案等等我們發現軍人背景的確實是他們鎖定的目標所以法律是用來維繫國家安全那也要經過國會的審查\n\n29\n00:10:43,479 --> 00:11:07,557\n那我這邊有兩個疑問邀請部長也許現在不用回答第一個我們當然希望提升軍法官軍檢的考選跟素質也就是軍事法官跟軍事檢察官我們在考選的制度那個都要經過考選部去考的考選的選考選之後的訓練養成希望他們有具備法律的素養\n\n30\n00:11:08,658 --> 00:11:30,983\n以及就是說軍人有軍人的專業法律人有法律人的專業一個軍人法律人他的專業哪邊應該著重這個在養成的時候可能要把那個中心定出來第二個建議是獨立性這個最難我們未來的軍法那個沈司長在這裡我們未來的軍法官要還在不在指揮鏈裡面\n\n31\n00:11:34,571 --> 00:11:54,057\n我想我們大家也討論過啦已經事實上討論過很多次這個是一個不好討論的命題啊就是說我們希望軍事審判要獨立嘛就像一般審判檢察官獨立作業法官獨立審判但是軍法官如果在指揮鏈有學長學弟有長官部署\n\n32\n00:11:55,481 --> 00:12:15,127\n所以他就會變成是一個有外部人員加入的一個人事審議委員會他會被懷疑,我不是說一定,他會被懷疑會有外部的干擾嘛所以他的這個有關他的相關的這些生煎啊,烤雞啊,那個\n\n33\n00:12:17,108 --> 00:12:36,180\n所以你們現在還是沒有辦法回答說那未來的軍神有沒有在指揮鏈裡面我尊重好好研議這一題就是說我怎麼確保他的獨立性不會因為他在指揮鏈裡面要接受命令在判決在起訴上會受到\n\n34\n00:12:37,020 --> 00:12:58,198\n被操控的懷疑這一點可以很明確回答委員在這個審判這個部分不可能會在指揮鏈裡面法官不會法官不會檢察官是屬於檢查一體他是屬於行政權的一個部分他是一個外部獨立但是內部檢查一體我們就這樣來這個命題等你們剛要出來我們再好好討論謝謝部長的時間謝謝趙偉\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n170\t1015\t麻煩部長有請部長\n12233\t35441\t第一個我們看到昨天美國國務院他其實是大概近幾年來口氣最重的來批判中國解放軍在2月26號無預警的在屏東外海74公里的地方臨時突然的劃設一個實彈的操演區域他把聯合戰備警巡團轉做實彈軍演\n37722\t59835\t那其實在那一個禮拜我們看了一下資料2月19號共軍在台海進行聯合戰備警巡大概每一週都一次但是21號在第二島鏈塔斯曼海域也就是澳洲跟紐西蘭中間他們在那邊也是進行實戰軍演而且真的是在澳洲的大門口開了炮2月25號\n62116\t80589\t共軍派出南部軍區的一個海軍支隊來到越南跟菲律賓之間的南海進行實彈演練那26號就突然間在高雄屏東外海40海里大概74公里的地方無預警的突然宣布了一個射擊訓練的場域等等\n81687\t104683\t那這是2月份大概從19號到26號發生的事情昨天3月18號不知道是約好的還是國際的共識之前那個操演是讓世界各國都予以譴責支持台海的和平穩定澳洲對中國也展示了一個抗議的態度但昨天18號國務院\n107506\t126926\t重批中國做出的是個魯莽不負責任的動作而且支持台灣一切的自我防衛的措施瑞士更特別瑞士是一個永久中立國罕見到瑞士的外交部長外交部長發言就代表國家\n127847\t144422\t他不僅表達譴責這樣的行為支持台海的和平穩定南海第一島鏈等地方的和平以外瑞士還表達說他們有把中國駐瑞士大使館的人叫來罵就表達他們的嚴正立場然後我們台灣的國防部在3月17號\n146192\t165813\t大概這個是第二次的立即備戰操演去年12月其實有一次了立即備戰操演我看媒體寫都說這個禮拜是第一次應該是去年的12月21日左右是第一次那立即備戰操演本席是支持這個做法也就是當威脅方有可能由演轉戰\n167415\t182360\t那我們的陸海空軍就要有能力從平時轉為戰備轉為備戰狀態所以這一個3月17號部長在今年度有人說小汗光宣布了立即備戰操演我的問題是\n184229\t202219\t解放軍是不是有什麼徵後或者你們有什麼樣的情資見到什麼樣的危險徵後必須進行這樣子的嚇阻包含國際上力量部長可以說就說或者不清楚不清楚我們看到這個局勢那你宣布在3月17號開始立即備戰操演\n205532\t226282\t是有什麼樣的情誌跟徵後嗎?3月17號到21號這個是屬於計畫性的備戰草原它是預定的?對那非計畫性的備戰草原就是如剛剛委員所提到如果它實施一個針對性的一個軍事草原的這個活動那我們會按照它的這個\n227392\t250168\t操演的強度,我們現在有一個灰色地帶應儲的一個地中高那我們就會想由總統下令之後我們就會進行一個立即備戰操演來做一個對應也就是說由指揮官下定這個他們操演的可能的狀況讓我們也立即做出回應來訓練我們的那個是由參謀本部直接來處理還是交給各作戰區\n251249\t268292\t由總統下令然後各州安區層級以下要做立即陪戰朝延的一個動作那等於是把敵情也就是說解放軍的動作如果有針對性的我們會做對應的動作我們針對我們所獲得的這一些相關的一些\n269413\t296156\t秦先生所獲得的情誌然後由指揮官他自己去想定可能發生的一些情況他如何要進行因應這個部分做一個這樣子來強化他的一個一個實戰化的訓練這對我們國軍的戰力實戰化訓練是有幫助的目前舊國防部的監測狀況解放軍不管在人員物資各方面的動作上有沒有異狀\n298358\t311247\t在禮拜一嘛就禮拜一嘛禮拜一他聯合戰備警巡那這個聯合戰備警巡當然首見的就是說他是在上午的時候\n312748\t331616\t從六點多開始實施過一次然後到下午的應該是兩點他又再實施一次那所以這個是一個比較首度看到的一個狀況所以當然我們剛好也在實施栗子集備戰草原所以可以剛好做相對應的動作全市或去定義他們的聯合戰備組決心的要求\n340979\t356548\t這個我們有看到這個中國的外交部好像有在回應這個這應該都是套好的吧就是說他問一個問題然後他就回答說因為國務院這個對於下架的那個\n357745\t385879\t不支持台獨的那個部分他認為是境外的勢力來所以他當然他們永遠都套好的啦但他把這個軍事動作詮釋為對G7對美國的一些外交的回應他的記者會當然很長啦有很多的問題那他特別有一題是說他的從事的這個操演\n387140\t410353\t主要的針對是什麼?那一題他的回答是說他是針對美國他針對所以國務院18號也譴責他盧莽不負責任但是我現在回到這個國務院的回應也是第一次看到美國國務院這一次講的比較重用這個所謂明目張膽且不負責任的這個而且他後面多一個就是支持就全面支持台灣的自我防衛但是\n411514\t436469\t剛才講的是政治外交上的定義我的意思是說他聯合戰備警巡罕見的變成上午一次凌晨一次下午一次在軍事上你們認為他在幹嘛我我們我們有各種可能的判斷那他這樣的一個兩次的聯合戰備警巡如果從這一次看起來的話應該他\n440211\t459715\t他特別外交部在回應的時候他講說這是一個軍事行動那事實上他是一個操演所以我認為他在現實的這個狀況之下現在這個狀況之下他能夠做到的程度是在這一個兩次的聯合戰備進行的情況之下加強他的這個強度來回應當下的這個形勢所以我們\n467878\t488195\t當然還是不能夠掉以輕心啦不過看起來他一定要對這個相關現在的這個有關您剛剛提到的G7也好美日這個峰會所表達對台灣的知己也好還有這個美國國務院這個相關的動作也好他一定要做一些回應\n496603\t510376\t我們現在所謂的軍審第一個軍法從來沒有停過陸海空軍刑法一直是在試用當中只是在馬政府時期把它改到一般的檢察官一般的法院去做處理\n512358\t534550\t部長我這樣詮釋沒有錯嘛軍閥沒有廢過啦人家說要恢復軍閥軍閥一直都在那裡就實體法它是一直是存在的那程序法它變成二元化了也就是說它平時移到一般司法機關暫時還要恢復那所以這個地方有一直在講說那為什麼要這樣這個是不是這樣子\n537778\t565670\t當然一直在質疑我啦那我要說明的就是說從我們國防部的立場來看的話我們要平時如果不打造一個軍事審判的一個制度的話就在那暫時的時候幾乎沒有辦法運作老闆娘部長我在這個委員會十年左右了從大概每一年我都會聽到不同黨派的委員呼籲把軍審制度恢復也就是用軍事檢察官\n566810\t591459\t軍事審判來處理軍人這樣可以維持紀律 維持管理大概我們如果在這委員會時間夠久的話每一年都會聽到 也會看到一些提案那這一次我看賴清德總統提出來的第一個他是限縮限縮軍人涉犯國安 軍事犯罪才會採取軍事審判的程序那第二個呢 這個還要國會修法\n592139\t615514\t要經過立法院修法那我看行政院長說這個修法呢一個月內會把他review那我們私底下討論過我看到那個一個月內要把所有配套的法要擬出來其實那個是很多很多套法比我們想像多太多因為很多新的犯罪樣態刑法的修改你要對接那個你們一個月內可以提出修法的計畫嗎\n617233\t642379\t我們會提出一個修法的綱要綱要就很難了 那個量很大所以其實限縮在軍人涉犯軍事犯罪 國安犯罪那這個原因也是來自於中國對台灣的滲透不管是共諜案 泄密案等等我們發現軍人背景的確實是他們鎖定的目標所以法律是用來維繫國家安全那也要經過國會的審查\n643479\t667557\t那我這邊有兩個疑問邀請部長也許現在不用回答第一個我們當然希望提升軍法官軍檢的考選跟素質也就是軍事法官跟軍事檢察官我們在考選的制度那個都要經過考選部去考的考選的選考選之後的訓練養成希望他們有具備法律的素養\n668658\t690983\t以及就是說軍人有軍人的專業法律人有法律人的專業一個軍人法律人他的專業哪邊應該著重這個在養成的時候可能要把那個中心定出來第二個建議是獨立性這個最難我們未來的軍法那個沈司長在這裡我們未來的軍法官要還在不在指揮鏈裡面\n694571\t714057\t我想我們大家也討論過啦 已經事實上討論過很多次這個是一個不好討論的命題啊就是說我們希望軍事審判要獨立嘛就像一般審判 檢察官獨立作業 法官獨立審判但是軍法官如果在指揮鏈 有學長學弟 有長官部署\n715481\t735127\t所以他就會變成是一個有外部人員加入的一個人事審議委員會他會被懷疑,我不是說一定,他會被懷疑會有外部的干擾嘛所以他的這個有關他的相關的這些生煎啊,烤雞啊,那個\n737108\t756180\t所以你們現在還是沒有辦法回答說那未來的軍神有沒有在指揮鏈裡面我尊重好好研議這一題就是說我怎麼確保他的獨立性不會因為他在指揮鏈裡面要接受命令在判決在起訴上會受到\n757020\t778198\t被操控的懷疑這一點可以很明確回答委員在這個審判這個部分不可能會在指揮鏈裡面法官不會法官不會檢察官是屬於檢查一體他是屬於行政權的一個部分他是一個外部獨立但是內部檢查一體我們就這樣來這個命題等你們剛要出來我們再好好討論謝謝部長的時間 謝謝趙偉\n","txt":"麻煩部長有請部長\n第一個我們看到昨天美國國務院他其實是大概近幾年來口氣最重的來批判中國解放軍在2月26號無預警的在屏東外海74公里的地方臨時突然的劃設一個實彈的操演區域他把聯合戰備警巡團轉做實彈軍演\n那其實在那一個禮拜我們看了一下資料2月19號共軍在台海進行聯合戰備警巡大概每一週都一次但是21號在第二島鏈塔斯曼海域也就是澳洲跟紐西蘭中間他們在那邊也是進行實戰軍演而且真的是在澳洲的大門口開了炮2月25號\n共軍派出南部軍區的一個海軍支隊來到越南跟菲律賓之間的南海進行實彈演練那26號就突然間在高雄屏東外海40海里大概74公里的地方無預警的突然宣布了一個射擊訓練的場域等等\n那這是2月份大概從19號到26號發生的事情昨天3月18號不知道是約好的還是國際的共識之前那個操演是讓世界各國都予以譴責支持台海的和平穩定澳洲對中國也展示了一個抗議的態度但昨天18號國務院\n重批中國做出的是個魯莽不負責任的動作而且支持台灣一切的自我防衛的措施瑞士更特別瑞士是一個永久中立國罕見到瑞士的外交部長外交部長發言就代表國家\n他不僅表達譴責這樣的行為支持台海的和平穩定南海第一島鏈等地方的和平以外瑞士還表達說他們有把中國駐瑞士大使館的人叫來罵就表達他們的嚴正立場然後我們台灣的國防部在3月17號\n大概這個是第二次的立即備戰操演去年12月其實有一次了立即備戰操演我看媒體寫都說這個禮拜是第一次應該是去年的12月21日左右是第一次那立即備戰操演本席是支持這個做法也就是當威脅方有可能由演轉戰\n那我們的陸海空軍就要有能力從平時轉為戰備轉為備戰狀態所以這一個3月17號部長在今年度有人說小汗光宣布了立即備戰操演我的問題是\n解放軍是不是有什麼徵後或者你們有什麼樣的情資見到什麼樣的危險徵後必須進行這樣子的嚇阻包含國際上力量部長可以說就說或者不清楚不清楚我們看到這個局勢那你宣布在3月17號開始立即備戰操演\n是有什麼樣的情誌跟徵後嗎?3月17號到21號這個是屬於計畫性的備戰草原它是預定的?對那非計畫性的備戰草原就是如剛剛委員所提到如果它實施一個針對性的一個軍事草原的這個活動那我們會按照它的這個\n操演的強度,我們現在有一個灰色地帶應儲的一個地中高那我們就會想由總統下令之後我們就會進行一個立即備戰操演來做一個對應也就是說由指揮官下定這個他們操演的可能的狀況讓我們也立即做出回應來訓練我們的那個是由參謀本部直接來處理還是交給各作戰區\n由總統下令然後各州安區層級以下要做立即陪戰朝延的一個動作那等於是把敵情也就是說解放軍的動作如果有針對性的我們會做對應的動作我們針對我們所獲得的這一些相關的一些\n秦先生所獲得的情誌然後由指揮官他自己去想定可能發生的一些情況他如何要進行因應這個部分做一個這樣子來強化他的一個一個實戰化的訓練這對我們國軍的戰力實戰化訓練是有幫助的目前舊國防部的監測狀況解放軍不管在人員物資各方面的動作上有沒有異狀\n在禮拜一嘛就禮拜一嘛禮拜一他聯合戰備警巡那這個聯合戰備警巡當然首見的就是說他是在上午的時候\n從六點多開始實施過一次然後到下午的應該是兩點他又再實施一次那所以這個是一個比較首度看到的一個狀況所以當然我們剛好也在實施栗子集備戰草原所以可以剛好做相對應的動作全市或去定義他們的聯合戰備組決心的要求\n這個我們有看到這個中國的外交部好像有在回應這個這應該都是套好的吧就是說他問一個問題然後他就回答說因為國務院這個對於下架的那個\n不支持台獨的那個部分他認為是境外的勢力來所以他當然他們永遠都套好的啦但他把這個軍事動作詮釋為對G7對美國的一些外交的回應他的記者會當然很長啦有很多的問題那他特別有一題是說他的從事的這個操演\n主要的針對是什麼?那一題他的回答是說他是針對美國他針對所以國務院18號也譴責他盧莽不負責任但是我現在回到這個國務院的回應也是第一次看到美國國務院這一次講的比較重用這個所謂明目張膽且不負責任的這個而且他後面多一個就是支持就全面支持台灣的自我防衛但是\n剛才講的是政治外交上的定義我的意思是說他聯合戰備警巡罕見的變成上午一次凌晨一次下午一次在軍事上你們認為他在幹嘛我我們我們有各種可能的判斷那他這樣的一個兩次的聯合戰備警巡如果從這一次看起來的話應該他\n他特別外交部在回應的時候他講說這是一個軍事行動那事實上他是一個操演所以我認為他在現實的這個狀況之下現在這個狀況之下他能夠做到的程度是在這一個兩次的聯合戰備進行的情況之下加強他的這個強度來回應當下的這個形勢所以我們\n當然還是不能夠掉以輕心啦不過看起來他一定要對這個相關現在的這個有關您剛剛提到的G7也好美日這個峰會所表達對台灣的知己也好還有這個美國國務院這個相關的動作也好他一定要做一些回應\n我們現在所謂的軍審第一個軍法從來沒有停過陸海空軍刑法一直是在試用當中只是在馬政府時期把它改到一般的檢察官一般的法院去做處理\n部長我這樣詮釋沒有錯嘛軍閥沒有廢過啦人家說要恢復軍閥軍閥一直都在那裡就實體法它是一直是存在的那程序法它變成二元化了也就是說它平時移到一般司法機關暫時還要恢復那所以這個地方有一直在講說那為什麼要這樣這個是不是這樣子\n當然一直在質疑我啦那我要說明的就是說從我們國防部的立場來看的話我們要平時如果不打造一個軍事審判的一個制度的話就在那暫時的時候幾乎沒有辦法運作老闆娘部長我在這個委員會十年左右了從大概每一年我都會聽到不同黨派的委員呼籲把軍審制度恢復也就是用軍事檢察官\n軍事審判來處理軍人這樣可以維持紀律 維持管理大概我們如果在這委員會時間夠久的話每一年都會聽到 也會看到一些提案那這一次我看賴清德總統提出來的第一個他是限縮限縮軍人涉犯國安 軍事犯罪才會採取軍事審判的程序那第二個呢 這個還要國會修法\n要經過立法院修法那我看行政院長說這個修法呢一個月內會把他review那我們私底下討論過我看到那個一個月內要把所有配套的法要擬出來其實那個是很多很多套法比我們想像多太多因為很多新的犯罪樣態刑法的修改你要對接那個你們一個月內可以提出修法的計畫嗎\n我們會提出一個修法的綱要綱要就很難了 那個量很大所以其實限縮在軍人涉犯軍事犯罪 國安犯罪那這個原因也是來自於中國對台灣的滲透不管是共諜案 泄密案等等我們發現軍人背景的確實是他們鎖定的目標所以法律是用來維繫國家安全那也要經過國會的審查\n那我這邊有兩個疑問邀請部長也許現在不用回答第一個我們當然希望提升軍法官軍檢的考選跟素質也就是軍事法官跟軍事檢察官我們在考選的制度那個都要經過考選部去考的考選的選考選之後的訓練養成希望他們有具備法律的素養\n以及就是說軍人有軍人的專業法律人有法律人的專業一個軍人法律人他的專業哪邊應該著重這個在養成的時候可能要把那個中心定出來第二個建議是獨立性這個最難我們未來的軍法那個沈司長在這裡我們未來的軍法官要還在不在指揮鏈裡面\n我想我們大家也討論過啦 已經事實上討論過很多次這個是一個不好討論的命題啊就是說我們希望軍事審判要獨立嘛就像一般審判 檢察官獨立作業 法官獨立審判但是軍法官如果在指揮鏈 有學長學弟 有長官部署\n所以他就會變成是一個有外部人員加入的一個人事審議委員會他會被懷疑,我不是說一定,他會被懷疑會有外部的干擾嘛所以他的這個有關他的相關的這些生煎啊,烤雞啊,那個\n所以你們現在還是沒有辦法回答說那未來的軍神有沒有在指揮鏈裡面我尊重好好研議這一題就是說我怎麼確保他的獨立性不會因為他在指揮鏈裡面要接受命令在判決在起訴上會受到\n被操控的懷疑這一點可以很明確回答委員在這個審判這個部分不可能會在指揮鏈裡面法官不會法官不會檢察官是屬於檢查一體他是屬於行政權的一個部分他是一個外部獨立但是內部檢查一體我們就這樣來這個命題等你們剛要出來我們再好好討論謝謝部長的時間 謝謝趙偉\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.170 --> 00:01.015\n麻煩部長有請部長\n\n00:12.233 --> 00:35.441\n第一個我們看到昨天美國國務院他其實是大概近幾年來口氣最重的來批判中國解放軍在2月26號無預警的在屏東外海74公里的地方臨時突然的劃設一個實彈的操演區域他把聯合戰備警巡團轉做實彈軍演\n\n00:37.722 --> 00:59.835\n那其實在那一個禮拜我們看了一下資料2月19號共軍在台海進行聯合戰備警巡大概每一週都一次但是21號在第二島鏈塔斯曼海域也就是澳洲跟紐西蘭中間他們在那邊也是進行實戰軍演而且真的是在澳洲的大門口開了炮2月25號\n\n01:02.116 --> 01:20.589\n共軍派出南部軍區的一個海軍支隊來到越南跟菲律賓之間的南海進行實彈演練那26號就突然間在高雄屏東外海40海里大概74公里的地方無預警的突然宣布了一個射擊訓練的場域等等\n\n01:21.687 --> 01:44.683\n那這是2月份大概從19號到26號發生的事情昨天3月18號不知道是約好的還是國際的共識之前那個操演是讓世界各國都予以譴責支持台海的和平穩定澳洲對中國也展示了一個抗議的態度但昨天18號國務院\n\n01:47.506 --> 02:06.926\n重批中國做出的是個魯莽不負責任的動作而且支持台灣一切的自我防衛的措施瑞士更特別瑞士是一個永久中立國罕見到瑞士的外交部長外交部長發言就代表國家\n\n02:07.847 --> 02:24.422\n他不僅表達譴責這樣的行為支持台海的和平穩定南海第一島鏈等地方的和平以外瑞士還表達說他們有把中國駐瑞士大使館的人叫來罵就表達他們的嚴正立場然後我們台灣的國防部在3月17號\n\n02:26.192 --> 02:45.813\n大概這個是第二次的立即備戰操演去年12月其實有一次了立即備戰操演我看媒體寫都說這個禮拜是第一次應該是去年的12月21日左右是第一次那立即備戰操演本席是支持這個做法也就是當威脅方有可能由演轉戰\n\n02:47.415 --> 03:02.360\n那我們的陸海空軍就要有能力從平時轉為戰備轉為備戰狀態所以這一個3月17號部長在今年度有人說小汗光宣布了立即備戰操演我的問題是\n\n03:04.229 --> 03:22.219\n解放軍是不是有什麼徵後或者你們有什麼樣的情資見到什麼樣的危險徵後必須進行這樣子的嚇阻包含國際上力量部長可以說就說或者不清楚不清楚我們看到這個局勢那你宣布在3月17號開始立即備戰操演\n\n03:25.532 --> 03:46.282\n是有什麼樣的情誌跟徵後嗎?3月17號到21號這個是屬於計畫性的備戰草原它是預定的?對那非計畫性的備戰草原就是如剛剛委員所提到如果它實施一個針對性的一個軍事草原的這個活動那我們會按照它的這個\n\n03:47.392 --> 04:10.168\n操演的強度,我們現在有一個灰色地帶應儲的一個地中高那我們就會想由總統下令之後我們就會進行一個立即備戰操演來做一個對應也就是說由指揮官下定這個他們操演的可能的狀況讓我們也立即做出回應來訓練我們的那個是由參謀本部直接來處理還是交給各作戰區\n\n04:11.249 --> 04:28.292\n由總統下令然後各州安區層級以下要做立即陪戰朝延的一個動作那等於是把敵情也就是說解放軍的動作如果有針對性的我們會做對應的動作我們針對我們所獲得的這一些相關的一些\n\n04:29.413 --> 04:56.156\n秦先生所獲得的情誌然後由指揮官他自己去想定可能發生的一些情況他如何要進行因應這個部分做一個這樣子來強化他的一個一個實戰化的訓練這對我們國軍的戰力實戰化訓練是有幫助的目前舊國防部的監測狀況解放軍不管在人員物資各方面的動作上有沒有異狀\n\n04:58.358 --> 05:11.247\n在禮拜一嘛就禮拜一嘛禮拜一他聯合戰備警巡那這個聯合戰備警巡當然首見的就是說他是在上午的時候\n\n05:12.748 --> 05:31.616\n從六點多開始實施過一次然後到下午的應該是兩點他又再實施一次那所以這個是一個比較首度看到的一個狀況所以當然我們剛好也在實施栗子集備戰草原所以可以剛好做相對應的動作全市或去定義他們的聯合戰備組決心的要求\n\n05:40.979 --> 05:56.548\n這個我們有看到這個中國的外交部好像有在回應這個這應該都是套好的吧就是說他問一個問題然後他就回答說因為國務院這個對於下架的那個\n\n05:57.745 --> 06:25.879\n不支持台獨的那個部分他認為是境外的勢力來所以他當然他們永遠都套好的啦但他把這個軍事動作詮釋為對G7對美國的一些外交的回應他的記者會當然很長啦有很多的問題那他特別有一題是說他的從事的這個操演\n\n06:27.140 --> 06:50.353\n主要的針對是什麼?那一題他的回答是說他是針對美國他針對所以國務院18號也譴責他盧莽不負責任但是我現在回到這個國務院的回應也是第一次看到美國國務院這一次講的比較重用這個所謂明目張膽且不負責任的這個而且他後面多一個就是支持就全面支持台灣的自我防衛但是\n\n06:51.514 --> 07:16.469\n剛才講的是政治外交上的定義我的意思是說他聯合戰備警巡罕見的變成上午一次凌晨一次下午一次在軍事上你們認為他在幹嘛我我們我們有各種可能的判斷那他這樣的一個兩次的聯合戰備警巡如果從這一次看起來的話應該他\n\n07:20.211 --> 07:39.715\n他特別外交部在回應的時候他講說這是一個軍事行動那事實上他是一個操演所以我認為他在現實的這個狀況之下現在這個狀況之下他能夠做到的程度是在這一個兩次的聯合戰備進行的情況之下加強他的這個強度來回應當下的這個形勢所以我們\n\n07:47.878 --> 08:08.195\n當然還是不能夠掉以輕心啦不過看起來他一定要對這個相關現在的這個有關您剛剛提到的G7也好美日這個峰會所表達對台灣的知己也好還有這個美國國務院這個相關的動作也好他一定要做一些回應\n\n08:16.603 --> 08:30.376\n我們現在所謂的軍審第一個軍法從來沒有停過陸海空軍刑法一直是在試用當中只是在馬政府時期把它改到一般的檢察官一般的法院去做處理\n\n08:32.358 --> 08:54.550\n部長我這樣詮釋沒有錯嘛軍閥沒有廢過啦人家說要恢復軍閥軍閥一直都在那裡就實體法它是一直是存在的那程序法它變成二元化了也就是說它平時移到一般司法機關暫時還要恢復那所以這個地方有一直在講說那為什麼要這樣這個是不是這樣子\n\n08:57.778 --> 09:25.670\n當然一直在質疑我啦那我要說明的就是說從我們國防部的立場來看的話我們要平時如果不打造一個軍事審判的一個制度的話就在那暫時的時候幾乎沒有辦法運作老闆娘部長我在這個委員會十年左右了從大概每一年我都會聽到不同黨派的委員呼籲把軍審制度恢復也就是用軍事檢察官\n\n09:26.810 --> 09:51.459\n軍事審判來處理軍人這樣可以維持紀律維持管理大概我們如果在這委員會時間夠久的話每一年都會聽到也會看到一些提案那這一次我看賴清德總統提出來的第一個他是限縮限縮軍人涉犯國安軍事犯罪才會採取軍事審判的程序那第二個呢這個還要國會修法\n\n09:52.139 --> 10:15.514\n要經過立法院修法那我看行政院長說這個修法呢一個月內會把他review那我們私底下討論過我看到那個一個月內要把所有配套的法要擬出來其實那個是很多很多套法比我們想像多太多因為很多新的犯罪樣態刑法的修改你要對接那個你們一個月內可以提出修法的計畫嗎\n\n10:17.233 --> 10:42.379\n我們會提出一個修法的綱要綱要就很難了那個量很大所以其實限縮在軍人涉犯軍事犯罪國安犯罪那這個原因也是來自於中國對台灣的滲透不管是共諜案泄密案等等我們發現軍人背景的確實是他們鎖定的目標所以法律是用來維繫國家安全那也要經過國會的審查\n\n10:43.479 --> 11:07.557\n那我這邊有兩個疑問邀請部長也許現在不用回答第一個我們當然希望提升軍法官軍檢的考選跟素質也就是軍事法官跟軍事檢察官我們在考選的制度那個都要經過考選部去考的考選的選考選之後的訓練養成希望他們有具備法律的素養\n\n11:08.658 --> 11:30.983\n以及就是說軍人有軍人的專業法律人有法律人的專業一個軍人法律人他的專業哪邊應該著重這個在養成的時候可能要把那個中心定出來第二個建議是獨立性這個最難我們未來的軍法那個沈司長在這裡我們未來的軍法官要還在不在指揮鏈裡面\n\n11:34.571 --> 11:54.057\n我想我們大家也討論過啦已經事實上討論過很多次這個是一個不好討論的命題啊就是說我們希望軍事審判要獨立嘛就像一般審判檢察官獨立作業法官獨立審判但是軍法官如果在指揮鏈有學長學弟有長官部署\n\n11:55.481 --> 12:15.127\n所以他就會變成是一個有外部人員加入的一個人事審議委員會他會被懷疑,我不是說一定,他會被懷疑會有外部的干擾嘛所以他的這個有關他的相關的這些生煎啊,烤雞啊,那個\n\n12:17.108 --> 12:36.180\n所以你們現在還是沒有辦法回答說那未來的軍神有沒有在指揮鏈裡面我尊重好好研議這一題就是說我怎麼確保他的獨立性不會因為他在指揮鏈裡面要接受命令在判決在起訴上會受到\n\n12:37.020 --> 12:58.198\n被操控的懷疑這一點可以很明確回答委員在這個審判這個部分不可能會在指揮鏈裡面法官不會法官不會檢察官是屬於檢查一體他是屬於行政權的一個部分他是一個外部獨立但是內部檢查一體我們就這樣來這個命題等你們剛要出來我們再好好討論謝謝部長的時間謝謝趙偉\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.17,"end":1.015,"text":"麻煩部長有請部長"},{"start":12.233,"end":35.441,"text":"第一個我們看到昨天美國國務院他其實是大概近幾年來口氣最重的來批判中國解放軍在2月26號無預警的在屏東外海74公里的地方臨時突然的劃設一個實彈的操演區域他把聯合戰備警巡團轉做實彈軍演"},{"start":37.722,"end":59.835,"text":"那其實在那一個禮拜我們看了一下資料2月19號共軍在台海進行聯合戰備警巡大概每一週都一次但是21號在第二島鏈塔斯曼海域也就是澳洲跟紐西蘭中間他們在那邊也是進行實戰軍演而且真的是在澳洲的大門口開了炮2月25號"},{"start":62.116,"end":80.589,"text":"共軍派出南部軍區的一個海軍支隊來到越南跟菲律賓之間的南海進行實彈演練那26號就突然間在高雄屏東外海40海里大概74公里的地方無預警的突然宣布了一個射擊訓練的場域等等"},{"start":81.687,"end":104.683,"text":"那這是2月份大概從19號到26號發生的事情昨天3月18號不知道是約好的還是國際的共識之前那個操演是讓世界各國都予以譴責支持台海的和平穩定澳洲對中國也展示了一個抗議的態度但昨天18號國務院"},{"start":107.506,"end":126.926,"text":"重批中國做出的是個魯莽不負責任的動作而且支持台灣一切的自我防衛的措施瑞士更特別瑞士是一個永久中立國罕見到瑞士的外交部長外交部長發言就代表國家"},{"start":127.847,"end":144.422,"text":"他不僅表達譴責這樣的行為支持台海的和平穩定南海第一島鏈等地方的和平以外瑞士還表達說他們有把中國駐瑞士大使館的人叫來罵就表達他們的嚴正立場然後我們台灣的國防部在3月17號"},{"start":146.192,"end":165.813,"text":"大概這個是第二次的立即備戰操演去年12月其實有一次了立即備戰操演我看媒體寫都說這個禮拜是第一次應該是去年的12月21日左右是第一次那立即備戰操演本席是支持這個做法也就是當威脅方有可能由演轉戰"},{"start":167.415,"end":182.36,"text":"那我們的陸海空軍就要有能力從平時轉為戰備轉為備戰狀態所以這一個3月17號部長在今年度有人說小汗光宣布了立即備戰操演我的問題是"},{"start":184.229,"end":202.219,"text":"解放軍是不是有什麼徵後或者你們有什麼樣的情資見到什麼樣的危險徵後必須進行這樣子的嚇阻包含國際上力量部長可以說就說或者不清楚不清楚我們看到這個局勢那你宣布在3月17號開始立即備戰操演"},{"start":205.532,"end":226.282,"text":"是有什麼樣的情誌跟徵後嗎?3月17號到21號這個是屬於計畫性的備戰草原它是預定的?對那非計畫性的備戰草原就是如剛剛委員所提到如果它實施一個針對性的一個軍事草原的這個活動那我們會按照它的這個"},{"start":227.392,"end":250.168,"text":"操演的強度,我們現在有一個灰色地帶應儲的一個地中高那我們就會想由總統下令之後我們就會進行一個立即備戰操演來做一個對應也就是說由指揮官下定這個他們操演的可能的狀況讓我們也立即做出回應來訓練我們的那個是由參謀本部直接來處理還是交給各作戰區"},{"start":251.249,"end":268.292,"text":"由總統下令然後各州安區層級以下要做立即陪戰朝延的一個動作那等於是把敵情也就是說解放軍的動作如果有針對性的我們會做對應的動作我們針對我們所獲得的這一些相關的一些"},{"start":269.413,"end":296.156,"text":"秦先生所獲得的情誌然後由指揮官他自己去想定可能發生的一些情況他如何要進行因應這個部分做一個這樣子來強化他的一個一個實戰化的訓練這對我們國軍的戰力實戰化訓練是有幫助的目前舊國防部的監測狀況解放軍不管在人員物資各方面的動作上有沒有異狀"},{"start":298.358,"end":311.247,"text":"在禮拜一嘛就禮拜一嘛禮拜一他聯合戰備警巡那這個聯合戰備警巡當然首見的就是說他是在上午的時候"},{"start":312.748,"end":331.616,"text":"從六點多開始實施過一次然後到下午的應該是兩點他又再實施一次那所以這個是一個比較首度看到的一個狀況所以當然我們剛好也在實施栗子集備戰草原所以可以剛好做相對應的動作全市或去定義他們的聯合戰備組決心的要求"},{"start":340.979,"end":356.548,"text":"這個我們有看到這個中國的外交部好像有在回應這個這應該都是套好的吧就是說他問一個問題然後他就回答說因為國務院這個對於下架的那個"},{"start":357.745,"end":385.879,"text":"不支持台獨的那個部分他認為是境外的勢力來所以他當然他們永遠都套好的啦但他把這個軍事動作詮釋為對G7對美國的一些外交的回應他的記者會當然很長啦有很多的問題那他特別有一題是說他的從事的這個操演"},{"start":387.14,"end":410.353,"text":"主要的針對是什麼?那一題他的回答是說他是針對美國他針對所以國務院18號也譴責他盧莽不負責任但是我現在回到這個國務院的回應也是第一次看到美國國務院這一次講的比較重用這個所謂明目張膽且不負責任的這個而且他後面多一個就是支持就全面支持台灣的自我防衛但是"},{"start":411.514,"end":436.469,"text":"剛才講的是政治外交上的定義我的意思是說他聯合戰備警巡罕見的變成上午一次凌晨一次下午一次在軍事上你們認為他在幹嘛我我們我們有各種可能的判斷那他這樣的一個兩次的聯合戰備警巡如果從這一次看起來的話應該他"},{"start":440.211,"end":459.715,"text":"他特別外交部在回應的時候他講說這是一個軍事行動那事實上他是一個操演所以我認為他在現實的這個狀況之下現在這個狀況之下他能夠做到的程度是在這一個兩次的聯合戰備進行的情況之下加強他的這個強度來回應當下的這個形勢所以我們"},{"start":467.878,"end":488.195,"text":"當然還是不能夠掉以輕心啦不過看起來他一定要對這個相關現在的這個有關您剛剛提到的G7也好美日這個峰會所表達對台灣的知己也好還有這個美國國務院這個相關的動作也好他一定要做一些回應"},{"start":496.603,"end":510.376,"text":"我們現在所謂的軍審第一個軍法從來沒有停過陸海空軍刑法一直是在試用當中只是在馬政府時期把它改到一般的檢察官一般的法院去做處理"},{"start":512.358,"end":534.55,"text":"部長我這樣詮釋沒有錯嘛軍閥沒有廢過啦人家說要恢復軍閥軍閥一直都在那裡就實體法它是一直是存在的那程序法它變成二元化了也就是說它平時移到一般司法機關暫時還要恢復那所以這個地方有一直在講說那為什麼要這樣這個是不是這樣子"},{"start":537.778,"end":565.67,"text":"當然一直在質疑我啦那我要說明的就是說從我們國防部的立場來看的話我們要平時如果不打造一個軍事審判的一個制度的話就在那暫時的時候幾乎沒有辦法運作老闆娘部長我在這個委員會十年左右了從大概每一年我都會聽到不同黨派的委員呼籲把軍審制度恢復也就是用軍事檢察官"},{"start":566.81,"end":591.459,"text":"軍事審判來處理軍人這樣可以維持紀律 維持管理大概我們如果在這委員會時間夠久的話每一年都會聽到 也會看到一些提案那這一次我看賴清德總統提出來的第一個他是限縮限縮軍人涉犯國安 軍事犯罪才會採取軍事審判的程序那第二個呢 這個還要國會修法"},{"start":592.139,"end":615.514,"text":"要經過立法院修法那我看行政院長說這個修法呢一個月內會把他review那我們私底下討論過我看到那個一個月內要把所有配套的法要擬出來其實那個是很多很多套法比我們想像多太多因為很多新的犯罪樣態刑法的修改你要對接那個你們一個月內可以提出修法的計畫嗎"},{"start":617.233,"end":642.379,"text":"我們會提出一個修法的綱要綱要就很難了 那個量很大所以其實限縮在軍人涉犯軍事犯罪 國安犯罪那這個原因也是來自於中國對台灣的滲透不管是共諜案 泄密案等等我們發現軍人背景的確實是他們鎖定的目標所以法律是用來維繫國家安全那也要經過國會的審查"},{"start":643.479,"end":667.557,"text":"那我這邊有兩個疑問邀請部長也許現在不用回答第一個我們當然希望提升軍法官軍檢的考選跟素質也就是軍事法官跟軍事檢察官我們在考選的制度那個都要經過考選部去考的考選的選考選之後的訓練養成希望他們有具備法律的素養"},{"start":668.658,"end":690.983,"text":"以及就是說軍人有軍人的專業法律人有法律人的專業一個軍人法律人他的專業哪邊應該著重這個在養成的時候可能要把那個中心定出來第二個建議是獨立性這個最難我們未來的軍法那個沈司長在這裡我們未來的軍法官要還在不在指揮鏈裡面"},{"start":694.571,"end":714.057,"text":"我想我們大家也討論過啦 已經事實上討論過很多次這個是一個不好討論的命題啊就是說我們希望軍事審判要獨立嘛就像一般審判 檢察官獨立作業 法官獨立審判但是軍法官如果在指揮鏈 有學長學弟 有長官部署"},{"start":715.481,"end":735.127,"text":"所以他就會變成是一個有外部人員加入的一個人事審議委員會他會被懷疑,我不是說一定,他會被懷疑會有外部的干擾嘛所以他的這個有關他的相關的這些生煎啊,烤雞啊,那個"},{"start":737.108,"end":756.18,"text":"所以你們現在還是沒有辦法回答說那未來的軍神有沒有在指揮鏈裡面我尊重好好研議這一題就是說我怎麼確保他的獨立性不會因為他在指揮鏈裡面要接受命令在判決在起訴上會受到"},{"start":757.02,"end":778.198,"text":"被操控的懷疑這一點可以很明確回答委員在這個審判這個部分不可能會在指揮鏈裡面法官不會法官不會檢察官是屬於檢查一體他是屬於行政權的一個部分他是一個外部獨立但是內部檢查一體我們就這樣來這個命題等你們剛要出來我們再好好討論謝謝部長的時間 謝謝趙偉"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":266,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時1分）謝謝召委，麻煩部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["顧部長立雄：王委員好。"],["王委員定宇：部長早。第一個，我們看到昨天美國國務院其實是大概近幾年來口氣最重批判中國解放軍在2月26號無預警在屏東外海74公里的地方，臨時突然劃設一個實彈操演區域，它把聯合戰備警巡團轉做實彈軍演。其實在那個禮拜我們看了一下資料，2月19號共軍在臺海進行聯合戰備警巡，大概每週都有一次；但是21號在第二島鏈的塔斯曼海域，也就是澳洲跟紐西蘭中間，他們也在那邊進行實彈軍演，而且真的是在澳洲的大門口開了砲；2月25號共軍派出南部軍區的一個海軍支隊到越南跟菲律賓之間的南海進行實彈演練；26號就突然間在高雄、屏東外海40浬，大概74公里的地方，無預警的突然宣布了一個射擊訓練的場域等等。這是2月份從19號到26號發生的事情，昨天3月18號不知道是約好的，還是國際的共識，之前那個操演，事實上世界各國都予以譴責，支持臺海的和平穩定，澳洲對中國也展示了抗議的態度。昨天18號美國國務院重批中國做出了這個魯莽、不負責任的動作，而且支持臺灣一切的自我防衛措施；瑞士更特別，瑞士是一個永久中立國，罕見到瑞士的外交部長，外交部長發言就代表國家，他不僅表達譴責這樣的行為，支持臺海的和平穩定、南海第一島鏈等地方的和平以外，瑞士還表達說他們有把中國駐瑞士大使館的人叫來罵，表達他們嚴正的立場。臺灣國防部在3月17號，這是第二次的立即備戰操演，去年12月其實有一次，我看媒體都寫說這個禮拜是第一次，應該是去年的12月21日左右是第一次，立即備戰操演，本席是支持這個作法，也就是當威脅方有可能由演轉戰，我們的陸海空軍就要有能力從平時轉為戰備、轉為備戰狀態，所以部長在今年度3月17號宣布了立即備戰操演，有人說這是小漢光。我的問題是，解放軍是不是有什麼徵候，或者你們有什麼樣的情資、見到什麼樣的危險徵候，必須進行這樣的嚇阻，包含國際上的力量，部長可以說就說，或者不清楚就說不清楚，也就是我們看到這個局勢，你宣布3月17號開始立即備戰操演，是有什麼樣的情資跟徵候嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：3月17號到21號是屬於計畫性的備戰操演。"],["王委員定宇：它是預定的。"],["顧部長立雄：對。那非計畫性的備戰操演，就是如剛剛委員所提到，如果它實施一個針對性的軍事操演活動，我們會按照它的操演強度，我們現在有一個灰色地帶應處的低中高，由總長下令之後，我們就會進行立即備戰操演來做對應，也就是說由指揮官想定他們操演的可能狀況，我們也立即做出回應，來訓練我們的……"],["王委員定宇：這是由參謀本部直接來處理，還是交給各作戰區？"],["顧部長立雄：由總長下令，然後各作戰區層級以下要做立即備戰操演的動作。"],["王委員定宇：等於是把敵情，也就是解放軍的動作如果有針對性的，我們會做對應的動作。"],["顧部長立雄：我們針對相關的情監偵所獲得的情資，然後由指揮官自己去想定可能發生的一些情況，要如何進行因應，來強化我們實戰化的訓練。"],["王委員定宇：對於我們國軍的戰力，實戰化訓練是有幫助的。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：目前就國防部的監測狀況，解放軍不管在人員、物資各方面的動作上有沒有異狀？"],["顧部長立雄：他們在禮拜一進行聯合戰備警巡，當然首見的就是，在上午的時候，從六點多開始實施過一次，然後到下午兩點它又再實施一次，這是我們首度看到的狀況，當然我們剛好也在實施立即備戰操演，所以可以做相對應的動作。"],["王委員定宇：那麼要如何去詮釋或定義他們聯合戰備警巡的新樣態？"],["顧部長立雄：我們有看到中國的外交部好像有在回應，這應該都是套好的吧，就是說問了一個問題，然後他就回答說，因為對於國務院下架、刪除不支持臺獨的部分，他們認為是境外的勢力來……"],["王委員定宇：當然他們永遠都是套好的啦，但他們把這個軍事動作詮釋為對G7、對美國的一些外交回應。"],["顧部長立雄：它的記者會當然很長，有很多的問題，特別有一題是說他們所從事的操演主要是針對什麼？那一題的回答是說他們是針對美國。"],["王委員定宇：對，所以國務院18號也譴責他們魯莽、不負責任。但我現在回到……"],["顧部長立雄：對，美國國務院這樣的回應也是第一次看到……"],["王委員定宇：對，美國國務院這次講得比較重。"],["顧部長立雄：美國國務院的回應是用明目張膽且不負責任這樣的字眼。"],["王委員定宇：而且後面多了一個全面支持臺灣的自我防衛。剛才講的是政治外交上的定義，我的意思是說，他們的聯合戰備警巡罕見地變成上午一次、凌晨一次、下午一次，在軍事上，你們認為他們在幹麼？"],["顧部長立雄：我們有各種可能的判斷，他們這樣的兩次聯合戰備警巡，如果從這一次看起來的話，外交部在回應的時候講到這是一個軍事行動，事實上是一個操演，所以我認為在現實的狀況之下，他們能夠做到的程度是在這兩次的聯合戰備警巡的情況之下加強強度來回應當下的情勢。我們當然還是不能夠掉以輕心，不過看起來他們一定要針對相關的，也就是有關您剛剛提到的G7也好，美日峰會所表達對臺灣的支持也好，還有美國國務院相關的動作也好，他們一定要做一些回應。"],["王委員定宇：我看連瑞士都要回應了。","不過我要移到下一題，因為時間關係，我跟主席借幾分鐘。我們現在所謂的軍審，第一個，軍法從來沒有停過，陸海空軍刑法一直是在適用當中，只是在馬政府時期把它改到一般的檢察官、一般的法院去做處理，部長，我這樣詮釋沒有錯嘛？軍法沒有廢過，有人說要恢復軍法，軍法一直都在那裡。"],["顧部長立雄：就是實體法一直是存在的，那程序法變成二元化，也就是說平時移到一般司法機關，戰時再回復，所以這個地方有一直在講說為什麼要這樣……大家一直在質疑我，但我要說明的就是，從我們國防部的立場來看的話，我們平時如果不打造一個軍事審判的制度，戰時就幾乎沒有辦法運作。"],["王委員定宇：部長，我在這個委員會10年左右了，大概每一年我都會聽到不同黨派的委員呼籲把軍審制度恢復，也就是用軍事檢察官、軍事審判來處理軍人，這樣可以維持紀律、維持管理，如果在這個委員會時間夠久的話，每一年都會聽到，也會看到一些提案。這一次我看賴清德總統提出來的，第一個，他是限縮，當軍人涉犯國安、軍事犯罪，才會採取軍事審判的程序；第二個，這還要國會修法，要經過立法院修法，我看行政院長說這個修法一個月內會review，我們私底下討論過，我看到一個月內要把所有配套的法擬出來，其實那有很多、很多套法，比我們想像的多太多，因為有很多新的犯罪樣態，刑法的修改要對接那個部分，你們一個月內可以提出修法的計畫嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們會提出一個修法的綱要。"],["王委員定宇：綱要就很難了，那個量很大，所以其實限縮在軍人涉犯軍事犯罪、國安犯罪，原因也是來自於中國對臺灣的滲透，不管是共諜案、洩密案等等，我們發現軍人背景確實是他們鎖定的目標，所以法律是用來維繫國家安全，也要經過國會的審查。我這邊有兩個疑問要請教部長，也許現在不用回答，第一個，我們當然希望提升軍法官、軍檢的考選跟素質，也就是軍事法官跟軍事檢察官在考選的制度上，這都是要經過考選部去辦理考試的，考選之後的訓練、養成，希望他們具備法律的素養，就是軍人有軍人的專業，法律人有法律人的專業，一個軍人、法律人的專業應該著重哪個部分，在養成的時候可能要把重心訂出來。第二個建議是獨立性，這個最難，沈司長在這裡，我們未來的軍法官在不在指揮鏈裡面？"],["顧部長立雄：我們大概也討論過了，事實上討論過很多次。"],["王委員定宇：這是一個不好討論的命題。"],["顧部長立雄：對！"],["王委員定宇：我們希望軍事審判要獨立，就像一般審判的檢察官獨立作業、法官獨立審判，但是軍法官如果在指揮鏈當中，有學長學弟、有長官部屬。"],["顧部長立雄：所以它就會變成是一個有外部人員加入的人事審議委員會。"],["王委員定宇：它會被懷疑，我不是說一定，但它會被懷疑有外部的干擾嘛。"],["顧部長立雄：對！所以它相關的升遷、考績、評鑑、淘汰等都要由一個外部機制來……"],["王委員定宇：所以你們現在還是沒有辦法回答未來的軍審有沒有在指揮鏈裡面，我尊重，好好研議這一題，就是你們怎麼確保它的獨立性，不會因為它在指揮鏈裡面要接受命令，在判決、在起訴上會受到被操控的懷疑。"],["顧部長立雄：這一點可以很明確回答委員，審判這個部分不可能會在指揮鏈裡面。"],["王委員定宇：法官不會？"],["顧部長立雄：法官不會。"],["王委員定宇：檢察官是屬於行政……"],["顧部長立雄：檢察官是屬於檢察一體。"],["王委員定宇：它是屬於行政權的一個部分？"],["顧部長立雄：它是一個外部獨立，但是內部檢察一體，我們就這樣來……"],["王委員定宇：這個命題等你們綱要出來我們再好好討論，謝謝部長的時間，謝謝召委。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","我們現在請陳冠廷委員上臺質詢。我們麥克風系統有點問題，所以可能都要先用無線的，我們等一下休息時間再來修理。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":316,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-4","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","徐巧芯","李坤城","邱志偉","蔡易餘","林憶君","蘇清泉","王鴻薇"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況暨「四年期國防總檢討」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00016"}}}