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\"start\": 652.923, \"end\": 652.943, \"score\": 0.138}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,028 --> 00:00:10,230\n好謝謝主席我們有請洪部長來請部長謝謝王委員部長這個勞工高喊還我七天假你之前也去參加過他們的活動對不對有沒有去參加過七天假嗎對他們的訴求我記得有一次你有去參加過你自己都忘記了\n\n2\n00:00:33,245 --> 00:00:54,678\n應該是去年你有代表民進黨去參加過去接受陳情接受訴求所以你完全知道勞工他的訴求那這個在內政委員會也排了這個恢復國定假日期先假的這個議案那內政部部長是公然的反對\n\n3\n00:00:55,939 --> 00:01:10,093\n所以他是不贊成甚至說這不是真正的議題內政部部長反對還給勞工7天假請問勞動部部長你是支持還是反對跟花園說明第一個你只要直接回答支持或反對就好\n\n4\n00:01:18,710 --> 00:01:44,799\n這是一個立場的表態在國定假日的法規的主管機關是內政部那當然從勞動部的立場我們認為國定假日的調整的這個議題那如果可以在一致性跟公平性的原則下面做討論的話我們覺得有正向討論的空間你的回答很模糊正向討論的空間代表你是支持嗎我們覺得有正向討論的空間\n\n5\n00:01:46,448 --> 00:01:53,993\n你不敢講出支持兩個字洪部長你是勞動部部長勞動部部長站在全國千萬勞工的立場然後支持他們還給他們七天假這件事情有這麼困難嗎\n\n6\n00:02:03,559 --> 00:02:26,818\n王委員我還是要說這一個法規的主管是在內政部當然啦我是問勞動部部長你是贊成還是反對嘛對我們覺得有正向討論的空間那是支持喔我可以這樣講嗎我們覺得有正向討論的空間你怎麼一直在重複因為你的問題一直重複我叫你回答支持或反對這麼簡單的問題我們的部長竟然回答不出來還是你根本就不敢回答\n\n7\n00:02:28,178 --> 00:02:53,138\n你也不敢講支持你也不敢講反對我很清楚說了我們勞工部認為有正向討論的好那我就解讀說洪森漢支持還給勞工7天假那個我們覺得我們在政策討論的時候我覺得都應該要這個語意上面可以更精準這是我是希望說政策的討論要明確啊語意精準然後盡量不去做各種講話那我說洪森漢反對還給勞工7天假\n\n8\n00:02:56,355 --> 00:03:19,785\n這個一樣也是這個不精準的簡化的詮釋啊其實部長你這樣子讓人家還蠻失望的大家說你從基層上來你最了解勞工的心聲結果在這種應該要表態的立場上面你還是用一種模糊以對不敢完全的表達自己站穩自己的立場如果勞動部部長都不敢站穩自己的立場\n\n9\n00:03:21,065 --> 00:03:27,066\n內政部反對那請問行政院團隊裡面有哪一個內閣是支持還給勞工七天假的當勞動部都不敢幫勞工發聲那請問勞工要依靠誰為什麼我們歷任的這個勞動部部長都是往資方靠攏呢然後當時說換你上來會比較好因為你是從基層上來最理解勞工我看也沒有這樣子啊\n\n10\n00:03:46,550 --> 00:04:01,443\n你該表態的時候你現在是不是當了官之後也不太敢表態了還要看上億還是你要看內政部的臉色因為人家內政部部長已經不同意了你就不敢站在勞動部部長立場大聲的說我跟他立場不一樣我認為應該再還給勞工七天假\n\n11\n00:04:05,206 --> 00:04:25,698\n勞動部也是大的執政團隊議員該表達的事情我們會表達但這個議題的主管法規主管單位是內政部所以我們有我們的態度那我們的態度就是覺得這個議題有正向討論的空間那就是要增加七天假嘛應該就可以下這樣的標嘛你不反對吧\n\n12\n00:04:27,821 --> 00:04:49,418\n正向討論的空間是什麼就是你支持嘛我們覺得這個議題有討論的空間好那就是你支持我要讓你看一下那個數據我們現在的年總工時其實是不降反升近五年來從108年到現在它呈現的幅度本來有跌到谷底了就是不到這個一年不到\n\n13\n00:04:51,299 --> 00:05:16,673\n2000現在去年又回升了到2030了所以在這樣的一個情況底下我們的勞工面對這一個工時過場的情況其實是沒有真正改善的如果可以多給他們這7天假我想是會有效的降低他的年總工時這個是數學的問題一看就知道而你看到這個我們跟日韓的特休日的比較我們對於新進的這個勞工我們現在給的\n\n14\n00:05:20,035 --> 00:05:47,806\n休假天數是比較少的日本在第一年的時候是10天韓國是15天他們其實都很高我們是到後面年資的時候就是你的年資可能超過十幾年的時候我們才往上加所以這個當然對於比較年輕的勞工來講他現在面臨到的情況就是工時長國定假日少然後這個特休日數在第一年的時候也是相對日韓來講是比較低的所以我想勞工團體他們才會提出來嘛\n\n15\n00:05:49,807 --> 00:06:15,858\n希望可以多增加這一個國定假日的7天假那我希望在這件事情上面部長你真的要站穩你的立場你搖擺的時候這個勞工的訴求就不可能達成因為連部長都不挺都不支持你的態度都不明確這個是不會有答案的接下來我要講的是這個防治霸凌專章對於保護勞工也是非常重要我要問你們你們的草案預計什麼時候對外公告\n\n16\n00:06:18,288 --> 00:06:31,324\n我們的草案目前其實已經在最後的收尾的階段那我們希望在這個會期大概我們也希望能夠盡快的把它預告出來然後能夠在這個會期送到立法院\n\n17\n00:06:32,391 --> 00:06:48,970\n對什麼時候要預告因為最後有些條文我們還在做相關的這一週會對外預告嗎可能沒有辦法到這一週這麼快那我們會盡快那是不是可以下週就對外可以預告我也希望盡快\n\n18\n00:06:51,612 --> 00:07:08,643\n我希望下週就可以預告那這其中有幾個部分我覺得很重要的我希望在你們的草案裡面要去定的更完整一個就是你的申訴機制你現在有沒有要求一定規模的企業他要建立申訴管道比照這個新工法\n\n19\n00:07:11,467 --> 00:07:29,149\n現在是應該是往這個方向就是在申訴調查包括這些相關你們現在是多少規模你們現在初步的草案多少規模要建立申訴法我們是有一定規模的企業的要求但是詳細的內容等到我們預告的時候會讓委員這邊知道你們現在應該有大概的方向有\n\n20\n00:07:33,490 --> 00:07:56,105\n這比較新公法嗎?是30號嗎?比較新公法嗎?因為這個法規大家的討論都會去參考新公法的概念那另外一個霸凌的調查應要透明化你們現在外部委員佔的比例有沒有要求要多少?我要求至少要半數我想現在大家都認為外部委員是很重要的所以會過半嘛對不對?在你們的草案裡面有沒有過半?是\n\n21\n00:07:58,257 --> 00:08:27,120\n有有過半嗎好我要求一定要這樣子才不會有關關相互的問題第三個是你的再申訴的管道的機制因為之前你們這個勞動部發生的很不幸的公務人員被霸凌然後致死案之後他遇到的問題就是第一次調查是沒有成立是第二次調查再調查輿論嘩然他才成立所以你們所謂的再申訴機制的救濟管道有沒有納入你們的草案裡面\n\n22\n00:08:28,025 --> 00:08:39,677\n當然救濟的做法這個當然這個都會在我們相關的法規裡面去做有納入嘛對不對我要求一定要這個再申訴的機制就是要納入裡面有嗎\n\n23\n00:08:42,549 --> 00:09:07,161\n細節的部分我想我們預告的時候會讓大家知道這個是方向性的問題有沒有納入再申訴我們有設計有設計對不對我要求就是要設計進去那這個部分是大家很期待的所以我希望你們這個修法的速度也是要加快你們草案也可以盡快在下個禮拜就是對外公告讓外界再給予你們更多的意見我們也希望盡快\n\n24\n00:09:07,921 --> 00:09:25,855\n那最後一個是你的就業安定基金現在這個濫用7000萬這個之前大家已經討論很多你現在有一個測定作為那這個測定作為它其實不是法律它就是你公布的一個做法不是我們是會修訂法規命令\n\n25\n00:09:26,135 --> 00:09:41,952\n好那我就問你你現在所有的策進作為是不是通通都可以入法你是選擇性的我看你有一些有有要修訂在你的就業安定基金收支保管及運用辦法但有一些其實是沒有你並不是全面性的入法\n\n26\n00:09:42,458 --> 00:10:08,932\n有一些會是行政規則但也有一些用法規命令我是希望你們回去再研議因為這次的整個救安基金所暴露的這些問題代表我們過去在管理跟運作上的確不夠嚴謹那既然你們要入法你如果覺得你這六項策進作為都是很到位而且很重要的你應該要研議每一項都在你的運用辦法裡面就是要加進去就是\n\n27\n00:10:09,492 --> 00:10:26,496\n你應該讓他法治化以免現在是紅部長覺得這個很重要下一次以後可能不知道換哪一位部長上來覺得不重要他就可以做這個該遵守或不遵守他其實是沒有一個法令的要求的這個我希望你們回去你們再解釋這個測定做我們已經在進行中了\n\n28\n00:10:28,937 --> 00:10:52,943\n那對於規範的形式上面當然我們也可以再做一些思考好你們再回去研議好不好我要求的就是說希望這整個可以是更嚴謹的其實我們是把它修進我們的法規命令裡面好很好那你們就是整個你們再給我一份報告就是哪一些是修法規命令哪一些是修到你的運用辦法我希望看到的是你整個是一個很嚴謹的做法好不好好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7028\t10230\t好 謝謝主席 我們有請洪部長來 請部長謝謝王委員部長這個勞工高喊還我七天假你之前也去參加過他們的活動 對不對有沒有去參加過七天假嗎對 他們的訴求我記得有一次你有去參加過你自己都忘記了\n33245\t54678\t應該是去年 你有代表民進黨去參加過去接受陳情 接受訴求所以你完全知道勞工他的訴求那這個在內政委員會也排了這個恢復國定假日期先假的這個議案那內政部部長是公然的反對\n55939\t70093\t所以他是不贊成甚至說這不是真正的議題內政部部長反對還給勞工7天假請問勞動部部長你是支持還是反對跟花園說明第一個你只要直接回答支持或反對就好\n78710\t104799\t這是一個立場的表態在國定假日的法規的主管機關是內政部那當然從勞動部的立場我們認為國定假日的調整的這個議題那如果可以在一致性跟公平性的原則下面做討論的話我們覺得有正向討論的空間你的回答很模糊正向討論的空間代表你是支持嗎我們覺得有正向討論的空間\n106448\t113993\t你不敢講出支持兩個字 洪部長你是勞動部部長勞動部部長站在全國千萬勞工的立場然後支持他們還給他們七天假這件事情有這麼困難嗎\n123559\t146818\t王委員 我還是要說這一個法規的主管是在內政部當然啦 我是問勞動部部長你是贊成還是反對嘛對 我們覺得有正向討論的空間那是支持喔 我可以這樣講嗎我們覺得有正向討論的空間你怎麼一直在重複因為你的問題一直重複我叫你回答支持或反對這麼簡單的問題 我們的部長竟然回答不出來還是你根本就不敢回答\n148178\t173138\t你也不敢講支持你也不敢講反對我很清楚說了我們勞工部認為有正向討論的好那我就解讀說洪森漢支持還給勞工7天假那個我們覺得我們在政策討論的時候我覺得都應該要這個語意上面可以更精準這是我是希望說政策的討論要明確啊語意精準然後盡量不去做各種講話那我說洪森漢反對還給勞工7天假\n176355\t199785\t這個一樣也是這個不精準的簡化的詮釋啊其實部長你這樣子讓人家還蠻失望的大家說你從基層上來你最了解勞工的心聲結果在這種應該要表態的立場上面你還是用一種模糊以對不敢完全的表達自己站穩自己的立場如果勞動部部長都不敢站穩自己的立場\n201065\t207066\t內政部反對那請問行政院團隊裡面有哪一個內閣是支持還給勞工七天假的當勞動部都不敢幫勞工發聲那請問勞工要依靠誰為什麼我們歷任的這個勞動部部長都是往資方靠攏呢然後當時說換你上來會比較好因為你是從基層上來最理解勞工我看也沒有這樣子啊\n226550\t241443\t你該表態的時候你現在是不是當了官之後也不太敢表態了還要看上億還是你要看內政部的臉色因為人家內政部部長已經不同意了你就不敢站在勞動部部長立場大聲的說我跟他立場不一樣我認為應該再還給勞工七天假\n245206\t265698\t勞動部也是大的執政團隊議員 該表達的事情我們會表達但這個議題的主管 法規主管單位是內政部所以我們有我們的態度 那我們的態度就是覺得這個議題有正向討論的空間那就是要增加七天假嘛 應該就可以下這樣的標嘛 你不反對吧\n267821\t289418\t正向討論的空間是什麼就是你支持嘛我們覺得這個議題有討論的空間好那就是你支持我要讓你看一下那個數據我們現在的年總工時其實是不降反升近五年來從108年到現在它呈現的幅度本來有跌到谷底了就是不到這個一年不到\n291299\t316673\t2000現在去年又回升了到2030了所以在這樣的一個情況底下我們的勞工面對這一個工時過場的情況其實是沒有真正改善的如果可以多給他們這7天假我想是會有效的降低他的年總工時這個是數學的問題一看就知道而你看到這個我們跟日韓的特休日的比較我們對於新進的這個勞工我們現在給的\n320035\t347806\t休假天數是比較少的日本在第一年的時候是10天韓國是15天他們其實都很高我們是到後面年資的時候就是你的年資可能超過十幾年的時候我們才往上加所以這個當然對於比較年輕的勞工來講他現在面臨到的情況就是工時長國定假日少然後這個特休日數在第一年的時候也是相對日韓來講是比較低的所以我想勞工團體他們才會提出來嘛\n349807\t375858\t希望可以多增加這一個國定假日的7天假那我希望在這件事情上面部長你真的要站穩你的立場你搖擺的時候這個勞工的訴求就不可能達成因為連部長都不挺都不支持你的態度都不明確這個是不會有答案的接下來我要講的是這個防治霸凌專章對於保護勞工也是非常重要我要問你們你們的草案預計什麼時候對外公告\n378288\t391324\t我們的草案目前其實已經在最後的收尾的階段那我們希望在這個會期大概我們也希望能夠盡快的把它預告出來然後能夠在這個會期送到立法院\n392391\t408970\t對 什麼時候要預告因為最後有些條文我們還在做相關的這一週會對外預告嗎可能沒有辦法到這一週這麼快那我們會盡快那是不是可以下週就對外可以預告我也希望盡快\n411612\t428643\t我希望下週就可以預告那這其中有幾個部分我覺得很重要的我希望在你們的草案裡面要去定的更完整一個就是你的申訴機制你現在有沒有要求一定規模的企業他要建立申訴管道比照這個新工法\n431467\t449149\t現在是應該是往這個方向就是在申訴調查包括這些相關你們現在是多少規模你們現在初步的草案多少規模要建立申訴法我們是有一定規模的企業的要求但是詳細的內容等到我們預告的時候會讓委員這邊知道你們現在應該有大概的方向有\n453490\t476105\t這比較新公法嗎?是30號嗎?比較新公法嗎?因為這個法規大家的討論都會去參考新公法的概念那另外一個霸凌的調查應要透明化你們現在外部委員佔的比例有沒有要求要多少?我要求至少要半數我想現在大家都認為外部委員是很重要的所以會過半嘛對不對?在你們的草案裡面有沒有過半?是\n478257\t507120\t有 有過半嗎好 我要求一定要這樣子才不會有關關相互的問題第三個是你的再申訴的管道的機制因為之前你們這個勞動部發生的很不幸的公務人員被霸凌然後致死案之後他遇到的問題就是第一次調查是沒有成立是第二次調查再調查輿論嘩然他才成立所以你們所謂的再申訴機制的救濟管道有沒有納入你們的草案裡面\n508025\t519677\t當然救濟的做法這個當然這個都會在我們相關的法規裡面去做有納入嘛對不對我要求一定要這個再申訴的機制就是要納入裡面有嗎\n522549\t547161\t細節的部分我想我們預告的時候會讓大家知道這個是方向性的問題有沒有納入再申訴我們有設計有設計對不對我要求就是要設計進去那這個部分是大家很期待的所以我希望你們這個修法的速度也是要加快你們草案也可以盡快在下個禮拜就是對外公告讓外界再給予你們更多的意見我們也希望盡快\n547921\t565855\t那最後一個是你的就業安定基金現在這個濫用7000萬這個之前大家已經討論很多你現在有一個測定作為那這個測定作為它其實不是法律它就是你公布的一個做法不是我們是會修訂法規命令\n566135\t581952\t好 那我就問你你現在所有的策進作為是不是通通都可以入法你是選擇性的我看你有一些有有要修訂在你的就業安定基金收支保管及運用辦法但有一些其實是沒有你並不是全面性的入法\n582458\t608932\t有一些會是行政規則但也有一些用法規命令我是希望你們回去再研議因為這次的整個救安基金所暴露的這些問題代表我們過去在管理跟運作上的確不夠嚴謹那既然你們要入法你如果覺得你這六項策進作為都是很到位而且很重要的你應該要研議每一項都在你的運用辦法裡面就是要加進去就是\n609492\t626496\t你應該讓他法治化以免現在是紅部長覺得這個很重要下一次以後可能不知道換哪一位部長上來覺得不重要他就可以做這個該遵守或不遵守他其實是沒有一個法令的要求的這個我希望你們回去你們再解釋這個測定做我們已經在進行中了\n628937\t652943\t那對於規範的形式上面當然我們也可以再做一些思考好你們再回去研議好不好我要求的就是說希望這整個可以是更嚴謹的其實我們是把它修進我們的法規命令裡面好很好那你們就是整個你們再給我一份報告就是哪一些是修法規命令哪一些是修到你的運用辦法我希望看到的是你整個是一個很嚴謹的做法好不好好謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請洪部長來 請部長謝謝王委員部長這個勞工高喊還我七天假你之前也去參加過他們的活動 對不對有沒有去參加過七天假嗎對 他們的訴求我記得有一次你有去參加過你自己都忘記了\n應該是去年 你有代表民進黨去參加過去接受陳情 接受訴求所以你完全知道勞工他的訴求那這個在內政委員會也排了這個恢復國定假日期先假的這個議案那內政部部長是公然的反對\n所以他是不贊成甚至說這不是真正的議題內政部部長反對還給勞工7天假請問勞動部部長你是支持還是反對跟花園說明第一個你只要直接回答支持或反對就好\n這是一個立場的表態在國定假日的法規的主管機關是內政部那當然從勞動部的立場我們認為國定假日的調整的這個議題那如果可以在一致性跟公平性的原則下面做討論的話我們覺得有正向討論的空間你的回答很模糊正向討論的空間代表你是支持嗎我們覺得有正向討論的空間\n你不敢講出支持兩個字 洪部長你是勞動部部長勞動部部長站在全國千萬勞工的立場然後支持他們還給他們七天假這件事情有這麼困難嗎\n王委員 我還是要說這一個法規的主管是在內政部當然啦 我是問勞動部部長你是贊成還是反對嘛對 我們覺得有正向討論的空間那是支持喔 我可以這樣講嗎我們覺得有正向討論的空間你怎麼一直在重複因為你的問題一直重複我叫你回答支持或反對這麼簡單的問題 我們的部長竟然回答不出來還是你根本就不敢回答\n你也不敢講支持你也不敢講反對我很清楚說了我們勞工部認為有正向討論的好那我就解讀說洪森漢支持還給勞工7天假那個我們覺得我們在政策討論的時候我覺得都應該要這個語意上面可以更精準這是我是希望說政策的討論要明確啊語意精準然後盡量不去做各種講話那我說洪森漢反對還給勞工7天假\n這個一樣也是這個不精準的簡化的詮釋啊其實部長你這樣子讓人家還蠻失望的大家說你從基層上來你最了解勞工的心聲結果在這種應該要表態的立場上面你還是用一種模糊以對不敢完全的表達自己站穩自己的立場如果勞動部部長都不敢站穩自己的立場\n內政部反對那請問行政院團隊裡面有哪一個內閣是支持還給勞工七天假的當勞動部都不敢幫勞工發聲那請問勞工要依靠誰為什麼我們歷任的這個勞動部部長都是往資方靠攏呢然後當時說換你上來會比較好因為你是從基層上來最理解勞工我看也沒有這樣子啊\n你該表態的時候你現在是不是當了官之後也不太敢表態了還要看上億還是你要看內政部的臉色因為人家內政部部長已經不同意了你就不敢站在勞動部部長立場大聲的說我跟他立場不一樣我認為應該再還給勞工七天假\n勞動部也是大的執政團隊議員 該表達的事情我們會表達但這個議題的主管 法規主管單位是內政部所以我們有我們的態度 那我們的態度就是覺得這個議題有正向討論的空間那就是要增加七天假嘛 應該就可以下這樣的標嘛 你不反對吧\n正向討論的空間是什麼就是你支持嘛我們覺得這個議題有討論的空間好那就是你支持我要讓你看一下那個數據我們現在的年總工時其實是不降反升近五年來從108年到現在它呈現的幅度本來有跌到谷底了就是不到這個一年不到\n2000現在去年又回升了到2030了所以在這樣的一個情況底下我們的勞工面對這一個工時過場的情況其實是沒有真正改善的如果可以多給他們這7天假我想是會有效的降低他的年總工時這個是數學的問題一看就知道而你看到這個我們跟日韓的特休日的比較我們對於新進的這個勞工我們現在給的\n休假天數是比較少的日本在第一年的時候是10天韓國是15天他們其實都很高我們是到後面年資的時候就是你的年資可能超過十幾年的時候我們才往上加所以這個當然對於比較年輕的勞工來講他現在面臨到的情況就是工時長國定假日少然後這個特休日數在第一年的時候也是相對日韓來講是比較低的所以我想勞工團體他們才會提出來嘛\n希望可以多增加這一個國定假日的7天假那我希望在這件事情上面部長你真的要站穩你的立場你搖擺的時候這個勞工的訴求就不可能達成因為連部長都不挺都不支持你的態度都不明確這個是不會有答案的接下來我要講的是這個防治霸凌專章對於保護勞工也是非常重要我要問你們你們的草案預計什麼時候對外公告\n我們的草案目前其實已經在最後的收尾的階段那我們希望在這個會期大概我們也希望能夠盡快的把它預告出來然後能夠在這個會期送到立法院\n對 什麼時候要預告因為最後有些條文我們還在做相關的這一週會對外預告嗎可能沒有辦法到這一週這麼快那我們會盡快那是不是可以下週就對外可以預告我也希望盡快\n我希望下週就可以預告那這其中有幾個部分我覺得很重要的我希望在你們的草案裡面要去定的更完整一個就是你的申訴機制你現在有沒有要求一定規模的企業他要建立申訴管道比照這個新工法\n現在是應該是往這個方向就是在申訴調查包括這些相關你們現在是多少規模你們現在初步的草案多少規模要建立申訴法我們是有一定規模的企業的要求但是詳細的內容等到我們預告的時候會讓委員這邊知道你們現在應該有大概的方向有\n這比較新公法嗎?是30號嗎?比較新公法嗎?因為這個法規大家的討論都會去參考新公法的概念那另外一個霸凌的調查應要透明化你們現在外部委員佔的比例有沒有要求要多少?我要求至少要半數我想現在大家都認為外部委員是很重要的所以會過半嘛對不對?在你們的草案裡面有沒有過半?是\n有 有過半嗎好 我要求一定要這樣子才不會有關關相互的問題第三個是你的再申訴的管道的機制因為之前你們這個勞動部發生的很不幸的公務人員被霸凌然後致死案之後他遇到的問題就是第一次調查是沒有成立是第二次調查再調查輿論嘩然他才成立所以你們所謂的再申訴機制的救濟管道有沒有納入你們的草案裡面\n當然救濟的做法這個當然這個都會在我們相關的法規裡面去做有納入嘛對不對我要求一定要這個再申訴的機制就是要納入裡面有嗎\n細節的部分我想我們預告的時候會讓大家知道這個是方向性的問題有沒有納入再申訴我們有設計有設計對不對我要求就是要設計進去那這個部分是大家很期待的所以我希望你們這個修法的速度也是要加快你們草案也可以盡快在下個禮拜就是對外公告讓外界再給予你們更多的意見我們也希望盡快\n那最後一個是你的就業安定基金現在這個濫用7000萬這個之前大家已經討論很多你現在有一個測定作為那這個測定作為它其實不是法律它就是你公布的一個做法不是我們是會修訂法規命令\n好 那我就問你你現在所有的策進作為是不是通通都可以入法你是選擇性的我看你有一些有有要修訂在你的就業安定基金收支保管及運用辦法但有一些其實是沒有你並不是全面性的入法\n有一些會是行政規則但也有一些用法規命令我是希望你們回去再研議因為這次的整個救安基金所暴露的這些問題代表我們過去在管理跟運作上的確不夠嚴謹那既然你們要入法你如果覺得你這六項策進作為都是很到位而且很重要的你應該要研議每一項都在你的運用辦法裡面就是要加進去就是\n你應該讓他法治化以免現在是紅部長覺得這個很重要下一次以後可能不知道換哪一位部長上來覺得不重要他就可以做這個該遵守或不遵守他其實是沒有一個法令的要求的這個我希望你們回去你們再解釋這個測定做我們已經在進行中了\n那對於規範的形式上面當然我們也可以再做一些思考好你們再回去研議好不好我要求的就是說希望這整個可以是更嚴謹的其實我們是把它修進我們的法規命令裡面好很好那你們就是整個你們再給我一份報告就是哪一些是修法規命令哪一些是修到你的運用辦法我希望看到的是你整個是一個很嚴謹的做法好不好好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.028 --> 00:10.230\n好謝謝主席我們有請洪部長來請部長謝謝王委員部長這個勞工高喊還我七天假你之前也去參加過他們的活動對不對有沒有去參加過七天假嗎對他們的訴求我記得有一次你有去參加過你自己都忘記了\n\n00:33.245 --> 00:54.678\n應該是去年你有代表民進黨去參加過去接受陳情接受訴求所以你完全知道勞工他的訴求那這個在內政委員會也排了這個恢復國定假日期先假的這個議案那內政部部長是公然的反對\n\n00:55.939 --> 01:10.093\n所以他是不贊成甚至說這不是真正的議題內政部部長反對還給勞工7天假請問勞動部部長你是支持還是反對跟花園說明第一個你只要直接回答支持或反對就好\n\n01:18.710 --> 01:44.799\n這是一個立場的表態在國定假日的法規的主管機關是內政部那當然從勞動部的立場我們認為國定假日的調整的這個議題那如果可以在一致性跟公平性的原則下面做討論的話我們覺得有正向討論的空間你的回答很模糊正向討論的空間代表你是支持嗎我們覺得有正向討論的空間\n\n01:46.448 --> 01:53.993\n你不敢講出支持兩個字洪部長你是勞動部部長勞動部部長站在全國千萬勞工的立場然後支持他們還給他們七天假這件事情有這麼困難嗎\n\n02:03.559 --> 02:26.818\n王委員我還是要說這一個法規的主管是在內政部當然啦我是問勞動部部長你是贊成還是反對嘛對我們覺得有正向討論的空間那是支持喔我可以這樣講嗎我們覺得有正向討論的空間你怎麼一直在重複因為你的問題一直重複我叫你回答支持或反對這麼簡單的問題我們的部長竟然回答不出來還是你根本就不敢回答\n\n02:28.178 --> 02:53.138\n你也不敢講支持你也不敢講反對我很清楚說了我們勞工部認為有正向討論的好那我就解讀說洪森漢支持還給勞工7天假那個我們覺得我們在政策討論的時候我覺得都應該要這個語意上面可以更精準這是我是希望說政策的討論要明確啊語意精準然後盡量不去做各種講話那我說洪森漢反對還給勞工7天假\n\n02:56.355 --> 03:19.785\n這個一樣也是這個不精準的簡化的詮釋啊其實部長你這樣子讓人家還蠻失望的大家說你從基層上來你最了解勞工的心聲結果在這種應該要表態的立場上面你還是用一種模糊以對不敢完全的表達自己站穩自己的立場如果勞動部部長都不敢站穩自己的立場\n\n03:21.065 --> 03:27.066\n內政部反對那請問行政院團隊裡面有哪一個內閣是支持還給勞工七天假的當勞動部都不敢幫勞工發聲那請問勞工要依靠誰為什麼我們歷任的這個勞動部部長都是往資方靠攏呢然後當時說換你上來會比較好因為你是從基層上來最理解勞工我看也沒有這樣子啊\n\n03:46.550 --> 04:01.443\n你該表態的時候你現在是不是當了官之後也不太敢表態了還要看上億還是你要看內政部的臉色因為人家內政部部長已經不同意了你就不敢站在勞動部部長立場大聲的說我跟他立場不一樣我認為應該再還給勞工七天假\n\n04:05.206 --> 04:25.698\n勞動部也是大的執政團隊議員該表達的事情我們會表達但這個議題的主管法規主管單位是內政部所以我們有我們的態度那我們的態度就是覺得這個議題有正向討論的空間那就是要增加七天假嘛應該就可以下這樣的標嘛你不反對吧\n\n04:27.821 --> 04:49.418\n正向討論的空間是什麼就是你支持嘛我們覺得這個議題有討論的空間好那就是你支持我要讓你看一下那個數據我們現在的年總工時其實是不降反升近五年來從108年到現在它呈現的幅度本來有跌到谷底了就是不到這個一年不到\n\n04:51.299 --> 05:16.673\n2000現在去年又回升了到2030了所以在這樣的一個情況底下我們的勞工面對這一個工時過場的情況其實是沒有真正改善的如果可以多給他們這7天假我想是會有效的降低他的年總工時這個是數學的問題一看就知道而你看到這個我們跟日韓的特休日的比較我們對於新進的這個勞工我們現在給的\n\n05:20.035 --> 05:47.806\n休假天數是比較少的日本在第一年的時候是10天韓國是15天他們其實都很高我們是到後面年資的時候就是你的年資可能超過十幾年的時候我們才往上加所以這個當然對於比較年輕的勞工來講他現在面臨到的情況就是工時長國定假日少然後這個特休日數在第一年的時候也是相對日韓來講是比較低的所以我想勞工團體他們才會提出來嘛\n\n05:49.807 --> 06:15.858\n希望可以多增加這一個國定假日的7天假那我希望在這件事情上面部長你真的要站穩你的立場你搖擺的時候這個勞工的訴求就不可能達成因為連部長都不挺都不支持你的態度都不明確這個是不會有答案的接下來我要講的是這個防治霸凌專章對於保護勞工也是非常重要我要問你們你們的草案預計什麼時候對外公告\n\n06:18.288 --> 06:31.324\n我們的草案目前其實已經在最後的收尾的階段那我們希望在這個會期大概我們也希望能夠盡快的把它預告出來然後能夠在這個會期送到立法院\n\n06:32.391 --> 06:48.970\n對什麼時候要預告因為最後有些條文我們還在做相關的這一週會對外預告嗎可能沒有辦法到這一週這麼快那我們會盡快那是不是可以下週就對外可以預告我也希望盡快\n\n06:51.612 --> 07:08.643\n我希望下週就可以預告那這其中有幾個部分我覺得很重要的我希望在你們的草案裡面要去定的更完整一個就是你的申訴機制你現在有沒有要求一定規模的企業他要建立申訴管道比照這個新工法\n\n07:11.467 --> 07:29.149\n現在是應該是往這個方向就是在申訴調查包括這些相關你們現在是多少規模你們現在初步的草案多少規模要建立申訴法我們是有一定規模的企業的要求但是詳細的內容等到我們預告的時候會讓委員這邊知道你們現在應該有大概的方向有\n\n07:33.490 --> 07:56.105\n這比較新公法嗎?是30號嗎?比較新公法嗎?因為這個法規大家的討論都會去參考新公法的概念那另外一個霸凌的調查應要透明化你們現在外部委員佔的比例有沒有要求要多少?我要求至少要半數我想現在大家都認為外部委員是很重要的所以會過半嘛對不對?在你們的草案裡面有沒有過半?是\n\n07:58.257 --> 08:27.120\n有有過半嗎好我要求一定要這樣子才不會有關關相互的問題第三個是你的再申訴的管道的機制因為之前你們這個勞動部發生的很不幸的公務人員被霸凌然後致死案之後他遇到的問題就是第一次調查是沒有成立是第二次調查再調查輿論嘩然他才成立所以你們所謂的再申訴機制的救濟管道有沒有納入你們的草案裡面\n\n08:28.025 --> 08:39.677\n當然救濟的做法這個當然這個都會在我們相關的法規裡面去做有納入嘛對不對我要求一定要這個再申訴的機制就是要納入裡面有嗎\n\n08:42.549 --> 09:07.161\n細節的部分我想我們預告的時候會讓大家知道這個是方向性的問題有沒有納入再申訴我們有設計有設計對不對我要求就是要設計進去那這個部分是大家很期待的所以我希望你們這個修法的速度也是要加快你們草案也可以盡快在下個禮拜就是對外公告讓外界再給予你們更多的意見我們也希望盡快\n\n09:07.921 --> 09:25.855\n那最後一個是你的就業安定基金現在這個濫用7000萬這個之前大家已經討論很多你現在有一個測定作為那這個測定作為它其實不是法律它就是你公布的一個做法不是我們是會修訂法規命令\n\n09:26.135 --> 09:41.952\n好那我就問你你現在所有的策進作為是不是通通都可以入法你是選擇性的我看你有一些有有要修訂在你的就業安定基金收支保管及運用辦法但有一些其實是沒有你並不是全面性的入法\n\n09:42.458 --> 10:08.932\n有一些會是行政規則但也有一些用法規命令我是希望你們回去再研議因為這次的整個救安基金所暴露的這些問題代表我們過去在管理跟運作上的確不夠嚴謹那既然你們要入法你如果覺得你這六項策進作為都是很到位而且很重要的你應該要研議每一項都在你的運用辦法裡面就是要加進去就是\n\n10:09.492 --> 10:26.496\n你應該讓他法治化以免現在是紅部長覺得這個很重要下一次以後可能不知道換哪一位部長上來覺得不重要他就可以做這個該遵守或不遵守他其實是沒有一個法令的要求的這個我希望你們回去你們再解釋這個測定做我們已經在進行中了\n\n10:28.937 --> 10:52.943\n那對於規範的形式上面當然我們也可以再做一些思考好你們再回去研議好不好我要求的就是說希望這整個可以是更嚴謹的其實我們是把它修進我們的法規命令裡面好很好那你們就是整個你們再給我一份報告就是哪一些是修法規命令哪一些是修到你的運用辦法我希望看到的是你整個是一個很嚴謹的做法好不好好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.028,"end":10.23,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請洪部長來 請部長謝謝王委員部長這個勞工高喊還我七天假你之前也去參加過他們的活動 對不對有沒有去參加過七天假嗎對 他們的訴求我記得有一次你有去參加過你自己都忘記了"},{"start":33.245,"end":54.678,"text":"應該是去年 你有代表民進黨去參加過去接受陳情 接受訴求所以你完全知道勞工他的訴求那這個在內政委員會也排了這個恢復國定假日期先假的這個議案那內政部部長是公然的反對"},{"start":55.939,"end":70.093,"text":"所以他是不贊成甚至說這不是真正的議題內政部部長反對還給勞工7天假請問勞動部部長你是支持還是反對跟花園說明第一個你只要直接回答支持或反對就好"},{"start":78.71,"end":104.799,"text":"這是一個立場的表態在國定假日的法規的主管機關是內政部那當然從勞動部的立場我們認為國定假日的調整的這個議題那如果可以在一致性跟公平性的原則下面做討論的話我們覺得有正向討論的空間你的回答很模糊正向討論的空間代表你是支持嗎我們覺得有正向討論的空間"},{"start":106.448,"end":113.993,"text":"你不敢講出支持兩個字 洪部長你是勞動部部長勞動部部長站在全國千萬勞工的立場然後支持他們還給他們七天假這件事情有這麼困難嗎"},{"start":123.559,"end":146.818,"text":"王委員 我還是要說這一個法規的主管是在內政部當然啦 我是問勞動部部長你是贊成還是反對嘛對 我們覺得有正向討論的空間那是支持喔 我可以這樣講嗎我們覺得有正向討論的空間你怎麼一直在重複因為你的問題一直重複我叫你回答支持或反對這麼簡單的問題 我們的部長竟然回答不出來還是你根本就不敢回答"},{"start":148.178,"end":173.138,"text":"你也不敢講支持你也不敢講反對我很清楚說了我們勞工部認為有正向討論的好那我就解讀說洪森漢支持還給勞工7天假那個我們覺得我們在政策討論的時候我覺得都應該要這個語意上面可以更精準這是我是希望說政策的討論要明確啊語意精準然後盡量不去做各種講話那我說洪森漢反對還給勞工7天假"},{"start":176.355,"end":199.785,"text":"這個一樣也是這個不精準的簡化的詮釋啊其實部長你這樣子讓人家還蠻失望的大家說你從基層上來你最了解勞工的心聲結果在這種應該要表態的立場上面你還是用一種模糊以對不敢完全的表達自己站穩自己的立場如果勞動部部長都不敢站穩自己的立場"},{"start":201.065,"end":207.066,"text":"內政部反對那請問行政院團隊裡面有哪一個內閣是支持還給勞工七天假的當勞動部都不敢幫勞工發聲那請問勞工要依靠誰為什麼我們歷任的這個勞動部部長都是往資方靠攏呢然後當時說換你上來會比較好因為你是從基層上來最理解勞工我看也沒有這樣子啊"},{"start":226.55,"end":241.443,"text":"你該表態的時候你現在是不是當了官之後也不太敢表態了還要看上億還是你要看內政部的臉色因為人家內政部部長已經不同意了你就不敢站在勞動部部長立場大聲的說我跟他立場不一樣我認為應該再還給勞工七天假"},{"start":245.206,"end":265.698,"text":"勞動部也是大的執政團隊議員 該表達的事情我們會表達但這個議題的主管 法規主管單位是內政部所以我們有我們的態度 那我們的態度就是覺得這個議題有正向討論的空間那就是要增加七天假嘛 應該就可以下這樣的標嘛 你不反對吧"},{"start":267.821,"end":289.418,"text":"正向討論的空間是什麼就是你支持嘛我們覺得這個議題有討論的空間好那就是你支持我要讓你看一下那個數據我們現在的年總工時其實是不降反升近五年來從108年到現在它呈現的幅度本來有跌到谷底了就是不到這個一年不到"},{"start":291.299,"end":316.673,"text":"2000現在去年又回升了到2030了所以在這樣的一個情況底下我們的勞工面對這一個工時過場的情況其實是沒有真正改善的如果可以多給他們這7天假我想是會有效的降低他的年總工時這個是數學的問題一看就知道而你看到這個我們跟日韓的特休日的比較我們對於新進的這個勞工我們現在給的"},{"start":320.035,"end":347.806,"text":"休假天數是比較少的日本在第一年的時候是10天韓國是15天他們其實都很高我們是到後面年資的時候就是你的年資可能超過十幾年的時候我們才往上加所以這個當然對於比較年輕的勞工來講他現在面臨到的情況就是工時長國定假日少然後這個特休日數在第一年的時候也是相對日韓來講是比較低的所以我想勞工團體他們才會提出來嘛"},{"start":349.807,"end":375.858,"text":"希望可以多增加這一個國定假日的7天假那我希望在這件事情上面部長你真的要站穩你的立場你搖擺的時候這個勞工的訴求就不可能達成因為連部長都不挺都不支持你的態度都不明確這個是不會有答案的接下來我要講的是這個防治霸凌專章對於保護勞工也是非常重要我要問你們你們的草案預計什麼時候對外公告"},{"start":378.288,"end":391.324,"text":"我們的草案目前其實已經在最後的收尾的階段那我們希望在這個會期大概我們也希望能夠盡快的把它預告出來然後能夠在這個會期送到立法院"},{"start":392.391,"end":408.97,"text":"對 什麼時候要預告因為最後有些條文我們還在做相關的這一週會對外預告嗎可能沒有辦法到這一週這麼快那我們會盡快那是不是可以下週就對外可以預告我也希望盡快"},{"start":411.612,"end":428.643,"text":"我希望下週就可以預告那這其中有幾個部分我覺得很重要的我希望在你們的草案裡面要去定的更完整一個就是你的申訴機制你現在有沒有要求一定規模的企業他要建立申訴管道比照這個新工法"},{"start":431.467,"end":449.149,"text":"現在是應該是往這個方向就是在申訴調查包括這些相關你們現在是多少規模你們現在初步的草案多少規模要建立申訴法我們是有一定規模的企業的要求但是詳細的內容等到我們預告的時候會讓委員這邊知道你們現在應該有大概的方向有"},{"start":453.49,"end":476.105,"text":"這比較新公法嗎?是30號嗎?比較新公法嗎?因為這個法規大家的討論都會去參考新公法的概念那另外一個霸凌的調查應要透明化你們現在外部委員佔的比例有沒有要求要多少?我要求至少要半數我想現在大家都認為外部委員是很重要的所以會過半嘛對不對?在你們的草案裡面有沒有過半?是"},{"start":478.257,"end":507.12,"text":"有 有過半嗎好 我要求一定要這樣子才不會有關關相互的問題第三個是你的再申訴的管道的機制因為之前你們這個勞動部發生的很不幸的公務人員被霸凌然後致死案之後他遇到的問題就是第一次調查是沒有成立是第二次調查再調查輿論嘩然他才成立所以你們所謂的再申訴機制的救濟管道有沒有納入你們的草案裡面"},{"start":508.025,"end":519.677,"text":"當然救濟的做法這個當然這個都會在我們相關的法規裡面去做有納入嘛對不對我要求一定要這個再申訴的機制就是要納入裡面有嗎"},{"start":522.549,"end":547.161,"text":"細節的部分我想我們預告的時候會讓大家知道這個是方向性的問題有沒有納入再申訴我們有設計有設計對不對我要求就是要設計進去那這個部分是大家很期待的所以我希望你們這個修法的速度也是要加快你們草案也可以盡快在下個禮拜就是對外公告讓外界再給予你們更多的意見我們也希望盡快"},{"start":547.921,"end":565.855,"text":"那最後一個是你的就業安定基金現在這個濫用7000萬這個之前大家已經討論很多你現在有一個測定作為那這個測定作為它其實不是法律它就是你公布的一個做法不是我們是會修訂法規命令"},{"start":566.135,"end":581.952,"text":"好 那我就問你你現在所有的策進作為是不是通通都可以入法你是選擇性的我看你有一些有有要修訂在你的就業安定基金收支保管及運用辦法但有一些其實是沒有你並不是全面性的入法"},{"start":582.458,"end":608.932,"text":"有一些會是行政規則但也有一些用法規命令我是希望你們回去再研議因為這次的整個救安基金所暴露的這些問題代表我們過去在管理跟運作上的確不夠嚴謹那既然你們要入法你如果覺得你這六項策進作為都是很到位而且很重要的你應該要研議每一項都在你的運用辦法裡面就是要加進去就是"},{"start":609.492,"end":626.496,"text":"你應該讓他法治化以免現在是紅部長覺得這個很重要下一次以後可能不知道換哪一位部長上來覺得不重要他就可以做這個該遵守或不遵守他其實是沒有一個法令的要求的這個我希望你們回去你們再解釋這個測定做我們已經在進行中了"},{"start":628.937,"end":652.943,"text":"那對於規範的形式上面當然我們也可以再做一些思考好你們再回去研議好不好我要求的就是說希望這整個可以是更嚴謹的其實我們是把它修進我們的法規命令裡面好很好那你們就是整個你們再給我一份報告就是哪一些是修法規命令哪一些是修到你的運用辦法我希望看到的是你整個是一個很嚴謹的做法好不好好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":632,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時26分）好，謝謝主席，我們有請洪部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝王委員。"],["王委員育敏：部長，勞工高喊還我七天假，你之前也去參加過他們的活動，對不對？有沒有去參加過？"],["洪部長申翰：七天假嗎？"],["王委員育敏：對，這是他們的訴求，我記得有一次你有去參加過，你自己都忘記了嗎？有沒有？"],["洪部長申翰：應該是去年……"],["王委員育敏：你有代表民進黨去參加過嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：是去接受陳情。"],["王委員育敏：對，是接受陳情。"],["洪部長申翰：去接受訴求。"],["王委員育敏：所以你完全知道勞工的訴求嘛！在內政委員會也排了國定假日恢復七天假的這個議案，那內政部部長公然的反對，他是不贊成，甚至說這不是真正的議題，內政部部長反對還給勞工七天假，請問勞動部部長，你是支持還是反對？"],["洪部長申翰：跟王委員說明，第一個……"],["王委員育敏：你只要直接回答是支持或反對就好了，這是一個立場的表態。"],["洪部長申翰：國定假日法規的主管機關是內政部，當然從勞動部的立場來講，我們認為國定假日調整的這個議題如果可以在一致性跟公平性的原則下面做討論的話，我們覺得有正向討論的空間。"],["王委員育敏：你的回答很模糊，你說有正向討論的空間，這代表你是支持嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們覺得有正向討論的空間。"],["王委員育敏：你不敢講出「支持」兩個字，洪部長，你是勞動部部長欸！"],["洪部長申翰：這個法規的主責是在……"],["王委員育敏：勞動部部長站在全國千萬勞工的立場，然後支持他們，還給他們七天假，這件事情有這麼困難嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：王委員，我還是要說，這一個法規的主管是在內政部……"],["王委員育敏：當然啦！我是要問勞動部部長，你是贊成還是反對？"],["洪部長申翰：對，我們覺得有正向討論的空間。"],["王委員育敏：那是支持喔！我可以這樣講嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們覺得有正向討論的空間。"],["王委員育敏：你怎麼一直在重複？"],["洪部長申翰：因為你的問題一直重複啊！"],["王委員育敏：我要你回答支持或反對，這麼簡單的問題，我們的部長竟然回答不出來，還是你根本就不敢回答？你不敢講支持，你也不敢講反對。"],["洪部長申翰：我很清楚的說了，我們勞動部認為有正向討論的空間。"],["王委員育敏：好，那我就解讀說洪申翰支持還給勞工七天假。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，在我們做政策討論的時候，我認為都應該在語意上面可以更精準。"],["王委員育敏：要明確啊！"],["洪部長申翰：我自己希望政策的討論要語意精準，然後儘量不去做各種簡化的詮釋。"],["王委員育敏：那我說洪申翰反對還給勞工七天假。"],["洪部長申翰：這個一樣也是不精準的簡化的詮釋。"],["王委員育敏：部長，其實你這樣子讓人家還蠻失望的，大家說你從基層上來，你最了解勞工的心聲，結果在這種應該要表態的立場上面，你還是用一種模糊以對的方式，不敢完全的表達自己的立場、站穩自己的立場，如果勞動部部長都不敢站穩自己的立場，內政部反對，請問在行政院團隊裡面有哪一個內閣成員是支持還給勞工七天假的？當勞動部都不敢幫勞工發聲，那請問勞工要依靠誰？為什麼我們歷任的勞動部部長都是往資方靠攏呢？在當時說換你上來會比較好，因為你是從基層上來的，所以最理解勞工，我看也沒有這樣子啊！在你該表態的時候，你現在是不是當了官之後也不太敢表態了，還要看上意，還是你要看內政部的臉色？因為內政部部長已經不同意了，你就不敢站在勞動部部長立場大聲的說，我跟他立場不一樣，我認為應該再還給勞工7天假？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，勞動部也是大的執政團隊一員，該表達的事情我們會表達，但這個議題的法規主管單位是內政部。"],["王委員育敏：我知道，我在問部長的意見。"],["洪部長申翰：我們有我們的態度，我們的態度就是覺得這個議題有正向討論的空間。"],["王委員育敏：那就是要增加7天假嘛！應該可以下這樣的標，你不反對吧？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我覺得……"],["王委員育敏：正向討論的空間是什麼？就是你支持嘛，是不是？"],["洪部長申翰：我們覺得這個議題有討論的空間。"],["王委員育敏：好，那就是你支持！我要讓你看一下數據，我們現在的年總工時其實是不降反升，近5年來從108年到現在呈現的幅度，本來有跌到谷底了，就是一年不到2,000個，去年又回升到2,030個，在這樣的情況底下，我們勞工面對工時過長的情況，其實是沒有真正改善的。所以如果可以多給他們這7天假，我想是會有效地降低他的年總工時，這個是數學問題，一看就知道。而你看到我們與日、韓的特休日比較，我們對於新進勞工現在給的休假天數是比較少的，日本在第一年的時候是10天，韓國是15天，他們其實都很高，我們是到後面年資的時候，也就是你的年資可能超過十幾年的時候才會往上加。所以對於比較年輕的勞工來講，他現在面臨到的情況就是工時長、國定假日少，特休日數在第一年相對日、韓來講也是比較低的。","所以勞工團體才會提出來希望可以多增加國定假日的7天假，在這件事情上面，我希望部長真的要站穩你的立場，因為你搖擺的時候，勞工的訴求就不可能達成，連部長都不挺、都不支持，你的態度都不明確，這個是不會有答案的。","接下來我要講的是防治霸凌專章，對於保護勞工也是非常重要，我要問的是你們的草案預計什麼時候對外公告？"],["洪部長申翰：我們的草案目前其實已經在最後的收尾階段，我們也希望能夠儘快的把它預告出來，然後能夠在這個會期送到立法院。"],["王委員育敏：什麼時候要預告？有沒有一個期程？"],["洪部長申翰：因為最後有些條文我們還在做相關的研修。"],["王委員育敏：我知道，這一週會對外預告嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：可能沒有辦法到這一週那麼快。"],["王委員育敏：那下週呢？"],["洪部長申翰：我們會儘快。"],["王委員育敏：是不是可以下週就對外預告你們的草案內容？"],["洪部長申翰：我也希望儘快。"],["王委員育敏：我希望下週就可以預告，這其中有幾個部分我覺得很重要的，我希望在你們的草案裡面要去訂得更完整，一個就是申訴機制，你現在有沒有要求一定規模的企業要建立申訴管道，比照性工法？"],["洪部長申翰：現在應該是往這個方向，就是在申訴、調查，包括這些相關的……"],["王委員育敏：你們現在初步的草案是多少規模要建立申訴管道？"],["洪部長申翰：我們是有一定規模的企業的要求。"],["王委員育敏：比照性工法嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：但是詳細的內容，等到我們預告的時候再讓委員這邊知道。"],["王委員育敏：你們現在應該有大概的方向，是比照性工法嗎？是30人嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：有一定規模的企業，是比照性工法的概念。"],["王委員育敏：比照性工法，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：因為這個法規大家的討論都會去參考性工法的概念。"],["王委員育敏：另外一個是霸凌的調查應該要透明化，你們現在外部委員占的比例有沒有要求要多少？"],["洪部長申翰：有。"],["王委員育敏：我要求至少要半數。"],["洪部長申翰：我想現在大家都認為外部委員是很重要的。"],["王委員育敏：所以會過半，對不對？在你們的草案裡面有沒有過半？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["王委員育敏：好，我要求一定要這樣子才不會有官官相護的問題。第三個是再申訴管道的機制，因為之前勞動部發生很不幸的公務人員被霸凌致死案之後，他遇到的問題就是第一次調查是沒有成立的，是輿論譁然，第二次再調查才成立，所以所謂的再申訴機制的救濟管道有沒有納入你們的草案裡面？"],["洪部長申翰：當然，救濟的作法都會在我們相關的法規裡面去做修訂。"],["王委員育敏：有納入，對不對？我要求一定要有再申訴的機制，也就是要納入裡面，有嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，細節的部分我們在預告的時候會讓大家知道，但是關於申訴……"],["王委員育敏：這個是方向性的問題，有沒有納入再申訴機制？有或沒有？"],["洪部長申翰：我們有設計。"],["王委員育敏：有設計，對不對？我要求要設計進去，這個部分是大家很期待的，所以我希望你們修法的速度也是要加快，你們的草案也可以儘快在下個禮拜對外公告，讓外界再給予你們更多的意見，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：我們也希望儘快。"],["王委員育敏：最後一個是就業安定基金濫用7,000萬，之前大家已經討論很多，你現在有一個策進作為，這個策進作為其實不是法令，只是你公布的一個作法。"],["洪部長申翰：不是，我們會修訂法規命令。"],["王委員育敏：好，那我問你，你現在所有的策進作為是不是統統都可以入法？你是選擇性的，我看你有一些有要修訂在就業安定基金收支保管及運用辦法，但有一些其實是沒有的，你並不是全面性的入法。"],["洪部長申翰：有一些會是行政規則，但也有一些用法規命令。"],["王委員育敏：我希望你們回去再研議，因為這一次整個就安基金所暴露的這些問題，代表我們過去在管理跟運作上的確不夠嚴謹。既然你們要入法，你如果覺得這六項策進作為都是很到位，而且很重要的，你應該要研議每一項都要加進去你的運用辦法裡面，你應該讓它法制化，以免現在是洪部長覺得這個很重要，下一次、以後可能不知道換哪一位部長上來覺得不重要，他就可以該遵守或不遵守，其實是沒有一個法令的要求，我希望你們回去再檢視。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，這個策進作為我們已經在進行中了，對於規範的形式上面，當然我們也可以再做一些思考。"],["王委員育敏：好，你們再回去研議，好不好？我要求整個可以是更嚴謹的。"],["洪部長申翰：但有部分其實我們是把它修進我們的法規命令裡面。"],["王委員育敏：很好，你們再給我一份報告，哪一些是修入法規命令，哪一些是修入運用辦法，我希望看到的是整個是一個很嚴謹的作法，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝部長。","我們另作宣告：剛剛有說盧縣一委員詢答完之後，我們就休息10分鐘，因為剛剛王委員和蘇委員的協商結果是等蘇召委詢答結束完之後，我們再休息，所以在這邊作這樣的宣告，請各位體諒一下。兩位時間一到，我們就消音。","請盧委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":285,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算決議有關勞動部預算凍結報告案 19案；二、邀請\n勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預\n算關於勞動部主管部分","agenda_id":"1142901_00005"}}}