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351.731, \"end\": 352.132, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 352.132, \"end\": 352.492, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 352.492, \"end\": 352.692, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 352.692, \"end\": 352.892, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 352.892, \"end\": 352.992, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 352.992, \"end\": 353.192, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 353.192, \"end\": 353.372, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 353.372, \"end\": 353.613, \"score\": 0.657}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 353.613, \"end\": 353.973, \"score\": 0.766}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 353.973, \"end\": 354.293, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"判\", \"start\": 354.293, \"end\": 354.593, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 354.593, \"end\": 354.833, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"度\", 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0.855}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 366.139, \"end\": 366.339, \"score\": 0.656}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 366.339, \"end\": 366.519, \"score\": 0.728}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 366.519, \"end\": 366.819, \"score\": 0.618}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 366.819, \"end\": 367.119, \"score\": 0.565}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 367.119, \"end\": 367.399, \"score\": 0.699}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 367.399, \"end\": 367.52, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"步\", \"start\": 367.52, \"end\": 367.84, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"釐\"}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 367.84, \"end\": 368.0, \"score\": 0.67}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 368.0, \"end\": 368.08, \"score\": 0.681}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 368.08, \"end\": 368.2, \"score\": 0.687}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 368.2, \"end\": 368.82, \"score\": 0.758}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 368.82, \"end\": 368.98, \"score\": 0.705}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 372.401, \"end\": 372.441, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 372.441, \"end\": 372.461, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 372.461, \"end\": 372.481, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 372.481, \"end\": 372.661, \"score\": 0.614}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 372.661, \"end\": 372.681, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 372.681, \"end\": 372.781, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 372.781, \"end\": 372.861, \"score\": 0.41}, {\"word\": \"般\", \"start\": 372.861, \"end\": 372.941, \"score\": 0.312}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 372.941, \"end\": 373.001, \"score\": 0.533}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 373.001, \"end\": 373.041, \"score\": 0.115}, {\"word\": \"眾\"}, {\"word\": \"涉\", \"start\": 373.041, \"end\": 373.061, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"入\", \"start\": 373.061, \"end\": 373.161, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 373.161, \"end\": 373.181, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"相\", 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{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 373.681, \"end\": 373.781, \"score\": 0.623}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 373.781, \"end\": 373.801, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 373.801, \"end\": 374.001, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 374.001, \"end\": 374.021, \"score\": 0.062}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 374.021, \"end\": 374.121, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 374.121, \"end\": 374.401, \"score\": 0.642}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 374.401, \"end\": 374.482, \"score\": 0.537}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 374.482, \"end\": 374.502, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 374.502, \"end\": 374.562, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 374.562, \"end\": 374.582, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 391.545, \"end\": 396.936, \"text\": \"如果是現役軍人犯這個實務上的犯罪的話那就屬於受軍事審判了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 391.545, \"end\": 391.705, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 391.705, \"end\": 391.886, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 391.886, \"end\": 392.287, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"役\", \"start\": 392.287, \"end\": 392.627, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 392.627, \"end\": 393.008, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"犯\", \"start\": 393.008, \"end\": 394.331, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 394.331, \"end\": 394.531, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 394.531, \"end\": 394.691, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"犯\", \"start\": 394.691, \"end\": 394.912, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"罪\", \"start\": 394.912, \"end\": 395.072, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 395.072, \"end\": 395.333, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 395.333, \"end\": 395.493, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 395.493, \"end\": 395.833, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"屬\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 395.833, \"end\": 395.974, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"受\", \"start\": 395.974, \"end\": 396.395, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 396.395, \"end\": 396.735, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"判\", \"start\": 396.735, \"end\": 396.916, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 396.916, \"end\": 396.936, \"score\": 0.379}]}, {\"start\": 397.867, \"end\": 424.253, \"text\": \"但是如果說一般的民眾他在參與案件期間他會變如果在這個案件當中他是其中但他不是現役軍人必須要現役軍人的時候犯罪好那言下之意這已經講得非常清楚了就是說這個軍事審判即使這個制度重啟因為他是要職務上犯罪所以他一定是現役軍人他有可能職務上犯罪他不是現役軍人邏輯上是不可能犯我們講的所謂的軍事犯\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 397.867, \"end\": 398.027, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 398.027, \"end\": 398.167, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 398.167, \"end\": 398.387, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 398.387, \"end\": 398.667, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, 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00:00:23,781\n是林委員好好部長好部長我想要針對我昨天在總質詢的時候問到的有關於紅色供應鏈去紅色供應鏈這個部分因為我想前面很多委員都已經質詢到了有關於就是我們這2025年的國防的四期的國防總檢討當中那麼對比2021年我們可以看到是台美的國際合作跟交流尤其在軍事上面其實已經是越來越明顯\n\n3\n00:00:37,711 --> 00:01:03,245\n那麼在軍事交流合作的部分它除了是有專節納入之外包括這當中也特別提到了軍事的融資還有就是總統提用權的部分我想美國政府對於台灣的這個軍事的合作已經展現得非常的明白但是怎麼樣能夠去紅色供應鏈這個部分本席還是有一些存疑的因為以本席所關注到的就是說現在很多的廠商\n\n4\n00:01:04,226 --> 00:01:20,353\n它是不是被列入所謂的紅色供應鏈或紅色廠商這個部分它其實是有一些可以鑽的巧門比如說它是來自於中國或者是中國內部旗下黨政軍所經營的\n\n5\n00:01:23,134 --> 00:01:43,303\n孫公司甚至於是曾孫公司他到境外比如說新加坡之外現在更可能的包括像美國或其他地方他來設立一個公司之後然後在台灣再來設立子公司或相對的方法我想這些手法跟巧門因為部長過去的資金力我想您一定很了解\n\n6\n00:01:43,823 --> 00:01:57,372\n但是我要提到的是在我們做採購的過程中或合作的過程當中現在政府內部到底有沒有這樣的一個SOP或是有這樣的組織比如說昨天像經濟部他會針對投審會去看這個公司是不是所謂有中資可是通常我們第一時間我們不會真的去採購的時候特別去問經濟部除非有一些疑惑的時候\n\n7\n00:02:10,660 --> 00:02:17,630\n那麼如果是這樣在已經名列入在所謂的接軌供應鏈安全體系當中要去紅色供應鏈的時候到底有沒有一個跨部會廠商的查核系統而這個系統該如何建置有沒有一個想法跟方向\n\n8\n00:02:29,802 --> 00:02:56,076\n我想大概要分兩個部分一個是我們採購的貨品本身嘛那這個要去紅那另外一個就是說來投標的廠商要去紅大概是這兩塊的部分是那就這兩塊的部分這個我們採購的貨品的部分呢我們現在跟採購是多次的討論之後我們現在大致上有一個全排性的一套這個\n\n9\n00:02:57,977 --> 00:03:23,571\n禁用這個大陸地區香港澳門產品的認證跟旅業驗收的作業指導的一個要點那這個要點我們現在就是按照這個要點要去跟這個所有這個會辦理採購業務的人來做一個宣講那就這個部分會涉及到說從一開始的規範然後到後面的驗收要如何進行驗收\n\n10\n00:03:24,871 --> 00:03:36,434\n這個大概都要有一套的一個程序那現在委員剛剛提到的另外一塊更麻煩的當然就是這個廠商的這個部分我想就是採購要點在那裡但是我相信我們的相關的這個國軍的單位絕對不會蓄意去都是事後被發現只好用這個要點去解約但是前期的預防就是部長你現在回應的有沒有可能有機會預防或者用什麼方式\n\n11\n00:03:52,739 --> 00:04:16,326\n可以有機會跨部會的先做查詢應該是說這個問題要從這個他本身這個股東的這個結構面上面來看那如果按照我過去在國安會的經驗就是說當這個股東的這個結構他上層的結構\n\n12\n00:04:21,033 --> 00:04:44,480\n可能是這些什麼VBI公司或者是這些其他國外的這個公司那這個的時候呢可能就要稍微要注意去看就是說它在上一層它是長什麼樣子那這個部分呢有些時候呢就據我們的國內以前是投審會現在應該是失了吧\n\n13\n00:04:48,064 --> 00:05:12,940\n他要做一個要去跟他們去做一個相關的一個諮詢那就這一塊的部分我必須承認他有些有難度譬如說BBI公司BBI公司他就不容易去清查這個部分所以這個部分還要透過一些相關的國安機制他們要協同去進行調查\n\n14\n00:05:13,280 --> 00:05:41,626\n好我會提出這個質詢就是也是提醒國防部跟其他的跨部會在處理有時候去紅色供應鏈的時候恐怕不能只有國防部就像部長所說的還是需要其他國安單位的協助尤其是我們在做軍事採購的部分我相信國防部也會特別的仔細那當然我也希望是有一個跨部會的機制能夠來做一個協助啦因為這個確實不是那麼容易都比較容易是亡羊補牢或是事後才發現或是有人舉發這個部分對\n\n15\n00:05:43,126 --> 00:05:59,696\n那另外一個其實本席要關注的問題就是剛剛呢有委員其實就特別審好幾個委員都提到了有關於我們現在軍事審判制度的部分甚至於有委員在質詢的時候也把這個名嘴的這個網路的\n\n16\n00:06:02,578 --> 00:06:14,582\n節目都放上來了那麼我想這個大概就是大家需要在社會上還做進一步釐清的就是當然委員他自己擔心的是他不是軍人那麼他會不會就成為這個軍事審判的對象剛剛部長也講得很清楚啦就是說如果不是軍人就不會是但是如果是一般的民眾涉入了相關的事件當中那麼透過軍人然後達到洩密的時候那像這樣的案件該如何處理\n\n17\n00:06:31,545 --> 00:06:36,936\n如果是現役軍人犯這個實務上的犯罪的話那就屬於受軍事審判了\n\n18\n00:06:37,867 --> 00:07:04,253\n但是如果說一般的民眾他在參與案件期間他會變如果在這個案件當中他是其中但他不是現役軍人必須要現役軍人的時候犯罪好那言下之意這已經講得非常清楚了就是說這個軍事審判即使這個制度重啟因為他是要職務上犯罪所以他一定是現役軍人他有可能職務上犯罪他不是現役軍人邏輯上是不可能犯我們講的所謂的軍事犯\n\n19\n00:07:04,753 --> 00:07:11,675\n好所以說這個也是非常的清楚包括就是只要你不是現役軍人就不會納入這個軍事審判的制度但是根據本席所找的這些媒體的報導大概我們一年當中大概有300多件的相關的這個所謂軍事審判的案件就是軍人涉入的案件\n\n20\n00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:29,501\n那麼以我去年4月的時候曾經就質詢過了那就是我們根據這個陸海空軍懲戒法跟軍人權益的處理辦法我們有曾經招募過國防法務官28名那麼如果加總起來所現有的包括我們的將官上位62名中校的54名衛官是7名再加書記官等等\n\n21\n00:07:50,405 --> 00:08:02,795\n在面對現在現有的軍事法官的數量來得及或者是說能夠應付現有的三百多件的案件嗎那麼在這個部分的準備因為其實當時我在質詢的時候就有特別提到那我那時候只是在想說我們在招募這個所謂國防法務官的過程當中其實\n\n22\n00:08:12,183 --> 00:08:34,113\n如果對比這個一般的律師的考試當時是剛好兩者是撞齊的嘛所以我就覺得說那這兩者之間會不會我們招募上面會有一些所謂誘因不夠或者是風險不夠但現在看得出來其實應該是是不是事前就已經要做這個準備但是目前到底我們的軍法官數量夠不夠陰影\n\n23\n00:08:36,267 --> 00:08:56,542\n跟委員報告,剛好因為現在陸海公軍懲罰法,那個軍人權益事件處理法通過,那已經今年七月要實施那所以地方軍事法院要成立全保會,來負責處理這個再申訴跟附審的案件那麼另外高等軍事法院要處理這個行政訴訟的這個部分\n\n24\n00:08:58,403 --> 00:09:25,679\n那所以這個部分這個應該開始就剛好有一部分的能量來進行一個練兵尤其特別是行政訴訟部分那現在又要跨到這一個軍事審判這個部分來那這分三點跟委員說明第一點他三百件裡面到底是哪些犯軍事職務上的犯罪這個我們要跟受案員查明因為有可能是犯一般的刑事犯罪這是第一點第二點我們以後軍法官的這個部分要確保他的獨立性\n\n25\n00:09:26,119 --> 00:09:51,914\n所以我們剛剛才會提到這些相關的組織法或者是人事條例那第三個就是我們可能會有一個多元選材的管道就是說我們的來源有可能是透過考試有可能透過這個他本身是律師那我們經過甄選那也有可能是國安法務官也經過甄選但是這個部分我們為了確保甄選的公平我們應該會請納入外部的人員來成立這個人事審議委員會\n\n26\n00:09:53,475 --> 00:10:13,544\n來進行一個多元的選裁那確保這個軍法官的品質這樣子好所以我想本席提出這樣質詢也是認為說這個不能真的只有所謂戰時尤其是現在平時戰時也進入一個灰色地帶那麼提早來做這些包括相關的軍法官的這個所謂人才的培育或者是充實是相當重要的謝謝這個部長的回覆謝謝好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n572\t1657\t謝謝主席 主席有請顧部長有請部長\n9751\t23781\t是 林委員好好 部長好部長 我想要針對我昨天在總質詢的時候問到的有關於紅色供應鏈 去紅色供應鏈這個部分因為我想前面很多委員都已經質詢到了有關於就是我們這2025年的國防的四期的國防總檢討當中那麼對比2021年我們可以看到是台美的國際合作跟交流尤其在軍事上面其實已經是越來越明顯\n37711\t63245\t那麼在軍事交流合作的部分它除了是有專節納入之外包括這當中也特別提到了軍事的融資還有就是總統提用權的部分我想美國政府對於台灣的這個軍事的合作已經展現得非常的明白但是怎麼樣能夠去紅色供應鏈這個部分本席還是有一些存疑的因為以本席所關注到的就是說現在很多的廠商\n64226\t80353\t它是不是被列入所謂的紅色供應鏈或紅色廠商這個部分它其實是有一些可以鑽的巧門比如說它是來自於中國或者是中國內部旗下黨政軍所經營的\n83134\t103303\t孫公司甚至於是曾孫公司他到境外比如說新加坡之外現在更可能的包括像美國或其他地方他來設立一個公司之後然後在台灣再來設立子公司或相對的方法我想這些手法跟巧門因為部長過去的資金力我想您一定很了解\n103823\t117372\t但是我要提到的是在我們做採購的過程中或合作的過程當中現在政府內部到底有沒有這樣的一個SOP或是有這樣的組織比如說昨天像經濟部他會針對投審會去看這個公司是不是所謂有中資可是通常我們第一時間我們不會真的去採購的時候特別去問經濟部除非有一些疑惑的時候\n130660\t137630\t那麼如果是這樣在已經名列入在所謂的接軌供應鏈安全體系當中要去紅色供應鏈的時候到底有沒有一個跨部會廠商的查核系統而這個系統該如何建置有沒有一個想法跟方向\n149802\t176076\t我想大概要分兩個部分一個是我們採購的貨品本身嘛那這個要去紅那另外一個就是說來投標的廠商要去紅大概是這兩塊的部分是那就這兩塊的部分這個我們採購的貨品的部分呢我們現在跟採購是多次的討論之後我們現在大致上有一個全排性的一套這個\n177977\t203571\t禁用這個大陸地區香港澳門產品的認證跟旅業驗收的作業指導的一個要點那這個要點我們現在就是按照這個要點要去跟這個所有這個會辦理採購業務的人來做一個宣講那就這個部分會涉及到說從一開始的規範然後到後面的驗收要如何進行驗收\n204871\t216434\t這個大概都要有一套的一個程序那現在委員剛剛提到的另外一塊更麻煩的當然就是這個廠商的這個部分我想就是採購要點在那裡但是我相信我們的相關的這個國軍的單位絕對不會蓄意去都是事後被發現只好用這個要點去解約但是前期的預防就是部長你現在回應的有沒有可能有機會預防或者用什麼方式\n232739\t256326\t可以有機會跨部會的先做查詢應該是說這個問題要從這個他本身這個股東的這個結構面上面來看那如果按照我過去在國安會的經驗就是說當這個股東的這個結構他上層的結構\n261033\t284480\t可能是這些什麼VBI公司或者是這些其他國外的這個公司那這個的時候呢可能就要稍微要注意去看就是說它在上一層它是長什麼樣子那這個部分呢有些時候呢就據我們的國內以前是投審會現在應該是失了吧\n288064\t312940\t他要做一個要去跟他們去做一個相關的一個諮詢那就這一塊的部分我必須承認他有些有難度譬如說BBI公司BBI公司他就不容易去清查這個部分所以這個部分還要透過一些相關的國安機制他們要協同去進行調查\n313280\t341626\t好 我會提出這個質詢就是也是提醒國防部跟其他的跨部會在處理有時候去紅色供應鏈的時候恐怕不能只有國防部就像部長所說的還是需要其他國安單位的協助尤其是我們在做軍事採購的部分我相信國防部也會特別的仔細那當然我也希望是有一個跨部會的機制能夠來做一個協助啦因為這個確實不是那麼容易都比較容易是亡羊補牢或是事後才發現或是有人舉發這個部分 對\n343126\t359696\t那另外一個其實本席要關注的問題就是剛剛呢有委員其實就特別審好幾個委員都提到了有關於我們現在軍事審判制度的部分甚至於有委員在質詢的時候也把這個名嘴的這個網路的\n362578\t374582\t節目都放上來了那麼我想這個大概就是大家需要在社會上還做進一步釐清的就是當然委員他自己擔心的是他不是軍人那麼他會不會就成為這個軍事審判的對象剛剛部長也講得很清楚啦就是說如果不是軍人就不會是但是如果是一般的民眾涉入了相關的事件當中那麼透過軍人然後達到洩密的時候那像這樣的案件該如何處理\n391545\t396936\t如果是現役軍人犯這個實務上的犯罪的話那就屬於受軍事審判了\n397867\t424253\t但是如果說一般的民眾他在參與案件期間他會變如果在這個案件當中他是其中但他不是現役軍人必須要現役軍人的時候犯罪好那言下之意這已經講得非常清楚了就是說這個軍事審判即使這個制度重啟因為他是要職務上犯罪所以他一定是現役軍人他有可能職務上犯罪他不是現役軍人邏輯上是不可能犯我們講的所謂的軍事犯\n424753\t431675\t好 所以說這個也是非常的清楚包括就是只要你不是現役軍人就不會納入這個軍事審判的制度但是根據本席所找的這些媒體的報導大概我們一年當中大概有300多件的相關的這個所謂軍事審判的案件就是軍人涉入的案件\n445120\t449501\t那麼以我去年4月的時候曾經就質詢過了那就是我們根據這個陸海空軍懲戒法跟軍人權益的處理辦法我們有曾經招募過國防法務官28名那麼如果加總起來所現有的包括我們的將官上位62名中校的54名衛官是7名再加書記官等等\n470405\t482795\t在面對現在現有的軍事法官的數量來得及或者是說能夠應付現有的三百多件的案件嗎那麼在這個部分的準備因為其實當時我在質詢的時候就有特別提到那我那時候只是在想說我們在招募這個所謂國防法務官的過程當中其實\n492183\t514113\t如果對比這個一般的律師的考試當時是剛好兩者是撞齊的嘛所以我就覺得說那這兩者之間會不會我們招募上面會有一些所謂誘因不夠或者是風險不夠但現在看得出來其實應該是是不是事前就已經要做這個準備但是目前到底我們的軍法官數量夠不夠陰影\n516267\t536542\t跟委員報告,剛好因為現在陸海公軍懲罰法,那個軍人權益事件處理法通過,那已經今年七月要實施那所以地方軍事法院要成立全保會,來負責處理這個再申訴跟附審的案件那麼另外高等軍事法院要處理這個行政訴訟的這個部分\n538403\t565679\t那所以這個部分這個應該開始就剛好有一部分的能量來進行一個練兵尤其特別是行政訴訟部分那現在又要跨到這一個軍事審判這個部分來那這分三點跟委員說明第一點他三百件裡面到底是哪些犯軍事職務上的犯罪這個我們要跟受案員查明因為有可能是犯一般的刑事犯罪這是第一點第二點我們以後軍法官的這個部分要確保他的獨立性\n566119\t591914\t所以我們剛剛才會提到這些相關的組織法或者是人事條例那第三個就是我們可能會有一個多元選材的管道就是說我們的來源有可能是透過考試有可能透過這個他本身是律師那我們經過甄選那也有可能是國安法務官也經過甄選但是這個部分我們為了確保甄選的公平我們應該會請納入外部的人員來成立這個人事審議委員會\n593475\t613544\t來進行一個多元的選裁那確保這個軍法官的品質這樣子好 所以我想本席提出這樣質詢也是認為說這個不能真的只有所謂戰時尤其是現在平時戰時也進入一個灰色地帶那麼提早來做這些包括相關的軍法官的這個所謂人才的培育或者是充實是相當重要的謝謝這個部長的回覆 謝謝好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 主席有請顧部長有請部長\n是 林委員好好 部長好部長 我想要針對我昨天在總質詢的時候問到的有關於紅色供應鏈 去紅色供應鏈這個部分因為我想前面很多委員都已經質詢到了有關於就是我們這2025年的國防的四期的國防總檢討當中那麼對比2021年我們可以看到是台美的國際合作跟交流尤其在軍事上面其實已經是越來越明顯\n那麼在軍事交流合作的部分它除了是有專節納入之外包括這當中也特別提到了軍事的融資還有就是總統提用權的部分我想美國政府對於台灣的這個軍事的合作已經展現得非常的明白但是怎麼樣能夠去紅色供應鏈這個部分本席還是有一些存疑的因為以本席所關注到的就是說現在很多的廠商\n它是不是被列入所謂的紅色供應鏈或紅色廠商這個部分它其實是有一些可以鑽的巧門比如說它是來自於中國或者是中國內部旗下黨政軍所經營的\n孫公司甚至於是曾孫公司他到境外比如說新加坡之外現在更可能的包括像美國或其他地方他來設立一個公司之後然後在台灣再來設立子公司或相對的方法我想這些手法跟巧門因為部長過去的資金力我想您一定很了解\n但是我要提到的是在我們做採購的過程中或合作的過程當中現在政府內部到底有沒有這樣的一個SOP或是有這樣的組織比如說昨天像經濟部他會針對投審會去看這個公司是不是所謂有中資可是通常我們第一時間我們不會真的去採購的時候特別去問經濟部除非有一些疑惑的時候\n那麼如果是這樣在已經名列入在所謂的接軌供應鏈安全體系當中要去紅色供應鏈的時候到底有沒有一個跨部會廠商的查核系統而這個系統該如何建置有沒有一個想法跟方向\n我想大概要分兩個部分一個是我們採購的貨品本身嘛那這個要去紅那另外一個就是說來投標的廠商要去紅大概是這兩塊的部分是那就這兩塊的部分這個我們採購的貨品的部分呢我們現在跟採購是多次的討論之後我們現在大致上有一個全排性的一套這個\n禁用這個大陸地區香港澳門產品的認證跟旅業驗收的作業指導的一個要點那這個要點我們現在就是按照這個要點要去跟這個所有這個會辦理採購業務的人來做一個宣講那就這個部分會涉及到說從一開始的規範然後到後面的驗收要如何進行驗收\n這個大概都要有一套的一個程序那現在委員剛剛提到的另外一塊更麻煩的當然就是這個廠商的這個部分我想就是採購要點在那裡但是我相信我們的相關的這個國軍的單位絕對不會蓄意去都是事後被發現只好用這個要點去解約但是前期的預防就是部長你現在回應的有沒有可能有機會預防或者用什麼方式\n可以有機會跨部會的先做查詢應該是說這個問題要從這個他本身這個股東的這個結構面上面來看那如果按照我過去在國安會的經驗就是說當這個股東的這個結構他上層的結構\n可能是這些什麼VBI公司或者是這些其他國外的這個公司那這個的時候呢可能就要稍微要注意去看就是說它在上一層它是長什麼樣子那這個部分呢有些時候呢就據我們的國內以前是投審會現在應該是失了吧\n他要做一個要去跟他們去做一個相關的一個諮詢那就這一塊的部分我必須承認他有些有難度譬如說BBI公司BBI公司他就不容易去清查這個部分所以這個部分還要透過一些相關的國安機制他們要協同去進行調查\n好 我會提出這個質詢就是也是提醒國防部跟其他的跨部會在處理有時候去紅色供應鏈的時候恐怕不能只有國防部就像部長所說的還是需要其他國安單位的協助尤其是我們在做軍事採購的部分我相信國防部也會特別的仔細那當然我也希望是有一個跨部會的機制能夠來做一個協助啦因為這個確實不是那麼容易都比較容易是亡羊補牢或是事後才發現或是有人舉發這個部分 對\n那另外一個其實本席要關注的問題就是剛剛呢有委員其實就特別審好幾個委員都提到了有關於我們現在軍事審判制度的部分甚至於有委員在質詢的時候也把這個名嘴的這個網路的\n節目都放上來了那麼我想這個大概就是大家需要在社會上還做進一步釐清的就是當然委員他自己擔心的是他不是軍人那麼他會不會就成為這個軍事審判的對象剛剛部長也講得很清楚啦就是說如果不是軍人就不會是但是如果是一般的民眾涉入了相關的事件當中那麼透過軍人然後達到洩密的時候那像這樣的案件該如何處理\n如果是現役軍人犯這個實務上的犯罪的話那就屬於受軍事審判了\n但是如果說一般的民眾他在參與案件期間他會變如果在這個案件當中他是其中但他不是現役軍人必須要現役軍人的時候犯罪好那言下之意這已經講得非常清楚了就是說這個軍事審判即使這個制度重啟因為他是要職務上犯罪所以他一定是現役軍人他有可能職務上犯罪他不是現役軍人邏輯上是不可能犯我們講的所謂的軍事犯\n好 所以說這個也是非常的清楚包括就是只要你不是現役軍人就不會納入這個軍事審判的制度但是根據本席所找的這些媒體的報導大概我們一年當中大概有300多件的相關的這個所謂軍事審判的案件就是軍人涉入的案件\n那麼以我去年4月的時候曾經就質詢過了那就是我們根據這個陸海空軍懲戒法跟軍人權益的處理辦法我們有曾經招募過國防法務官28名那麼如果加總起來所現有的包括我們的將官上位62名中校的54名衛官是7名再加書記官等等\n在面對現在現有的軍事法官的數量來得及或者是說能夠應付現有的三百多件的案件嗎那麼在這個部分的準備因為其實當時我在質詢的時候就有特別提到那我那時候只是在想說我們在招募這個所謂國防法務官的過程當中其實\n如果對比這個一般的律師的考試當時是剛好兩者是撞齊的嘛所以我就覺得說那這兩者之間會不會我們招募上面會有一些所謂誘因不夠或者是風險不夠但現在看得出來其實應該是是不是事前就已經要做這個準備但是目前到底我們的軍法官數量夠不夠陰影\n跟委員報告,剛好因為現在陸海公軍懲罰法,那個軍人權益事件處理法通過,那已經今年七月要實施那所以地方軍事法院要成立全保會,來負責處理這個再申訴跟附審的案件那麼另外高等軍事法院要處理這個行政訴訟的這個部分\n那所以這個部分這個應該開始就剛好有一部分的能量來進行一個練兵尤其特別是行政訴訟部分那現在又要跨到這一個軍事審判這個部分來那這分三點跟委員說明第一點他三百件裡面到底是哪些犯軍事職務上的犯罪這個我們要跟受案員查明因為有可能是犯一般的刑事犯罪這是第一點第二點我們以後軍法官的這個部分要確保他的獨立性\n所以我們剛剛才會提到這些相關的組織法或者是人事條例那第三個就是我們可能會有一個多元選材的管道就是說我們的來源有可能是透過考試有可能透過這個他本身是律師那我們經過甄選那也有可能是國安法務官也經過甄選但是這個部分我們為了確保甄選的公平我們應該會請納入外部的人員來成立這個人事審議委員會\n來進行一個多元的選裁那確保這個軍法官的品質這樣子好 所以我想本席提出這樣質詢也是認為說這個不能真的只有所謂戰時尤其是現在平時戰時也進入一個灰色地帶那麼提早來做這些包括相關的軍法官的這個所謂人才的培育或者是充實是相當重要的謝謝這個部長的回覆 謝謝好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.572 --> 00:01.657\n謝謝主席主席有請顧部長有請部長\n\n00:09.751 --> 00:23.781\n是林委員好好部長好部長我想要針對我昨天在總質詢的時候問到的有關於紅色供應鏈去紅色供應鏈這個部分因為我想前面很多委員都已經質詢到了有關於就是我們這2025年的國防的四期的國防總檢討當中那麼對比2021年我們可以看到是台美的國際合作跟交流尤其在軍事上面其實已經是越來越明顯\n\n00:37.711 --> 01:03.245\n那麼在軍事交流合作的部分它除了是有專節納入之外包括這當中也特別提到了軍事的融資還有就是總統提用權的部分我想美國政府對於台灣的這個軍事的合作已經展現得非常的明白但是怎麼樣能夠去紅色供應鏈這個部分本席還是有一些存疑的因為以本席所關注到的就是說現在很多的廠商\n\n01:04.226 --> 01:20.353\n它是不是被列入所謂的紅色供應鏈或紅色廠商這個部分它其實是有一些可以鑽的巧門比如說它是來自於中國或者是中國內部旗下黨政軍所經營的\n\n01:23.134 --> 01:43.303\n孫公司甚至於是曾孫公司他到境外比如說新加坡之外現在更可能的包括像美國或其他地方他來設立一個公司之後然後在台灣再來設立子公司或相對的方法我想這些手法跟巧門因為部長過去的資金力我想您一定很了解\n\n01:43.823 --> 01:57.372\n但是我要提到的是在我們做採購的過程中或合作的過程當中現在政府內部到底有沒有這樣的一個SOP或是有這樣的組織比如說昨天像經濟部他會針對投審會去看這個公司是不是所謂有中資可是通常我們第一時間我們不會真的去採購的時候特別去問經濟部除非有一些疑惑的時候\n\n02:10.660 --> 02:17.630\n那麼如果是這樣在已經名列入在所謂的接軌供應鏈安全體系當中要去紅色供應鏈的時候到底有沒有一個跨部會廠商的查核系統而這個系統該如何建置有沒有一個想法跟方向\n\n02:29.802 --> 02:56.076\n我想大概要分兩個部分一個是我們採購的貨品本身嘛那這個要去紅那另外一個就是說來投標的廠商要去紅大概是這兩塊的部分是那就這兩塊的部分這個我們採購的貨品的部分呢我們現在跟採購是多次的討論之後我們現在大致上有一個全排性的一套這個\n\n02:57.977 --> 03:23.571\n禁用這個大陸地區香港澳門產品的認證跟旅業驗收的作業指導的一個要點那這個要點我們現在就是按照這個要點要去跟這個所有這個會辦理採購業務的人來做一個宣講那就這個部分會涉及到說從一開始的規範然後到後面的驗收要如何進行驗收\n\n03:24.871 --> 03:36.434\n這個大概都要有一套的一個程序那現在委員剛剛提到的另外一塊更麻煩的當然就是這個廠商的這個部分我想就是採購要點在那裡但是我相信我們的相關的這個國軍的單位絕對不會蓄意去都是事後被發現只好用這個要點去解約但是前期的預防就是部長你現在回應的有沒有可能有機會預防或者用什麼方式\n\n03:52.739 --> 04:16.326\n可以有機會跨部會的先做查詢應該是說這個問題要從這個他本身這個股東的這個結構面上面來看那如果按照我過去在國安會的經驗就是說當這個股東的這個結構他上層的結構\n\n04:21.033 --> 04:44.480\n可能是這些什麼VBI公司或者是這些其他國外的這個公司那這個的時候呢可能就要稍微要注意去看就是說它在上一層它是長什麼樣子那這個部分呢有些時候呢就據我們的國內以前是投審會現在應該是失了吧\n\n04:48.064 --> 05:12.940\n他要做一個要去跟他們去做一個相關的一個諮詢那就這一塊的部分我必須承認他有些有難度譬如說BBI公司BBI公司他就不容易去清查這個部分所以這個部分還要透過一些相關的國安機制他們要協同去進行調查\n\n05:13.280 --> 05:41.626\n好我會提出這個質詢就是也是提醒國防部跟其他的跨部會在處理有時候去紅色供應鏈的時候恐怕不能只有國防部就像部長所說的還是需要其他國安單位的協助尤其是我們在做軍事採購的部分我相信國防部也會特別的仔細那當然我也希望是有一個跨部會的機制能夠來做一個協助啦因為這個確實不是那麼容易都比較容易是亡羊補牢或是事後才發現或是有人舉發這個部分對\n\n05:43.126 --> 05:59.696\n那另外一個其實本席要關注的問題就是剛剛呢有委員其實就特別審好幾個委員都提到了有關於我們現在軍事審判制度的部分甚至於有委員在質詢的時候也把這個名嘴的這個網路的\n\n06:02.578 --> 06:14.582\n節目都放上來了那麼我想這個大概就是大家需要在社會上還做進一步釐清的就是當然委員他自己擔心的是他不是軍人那麼他會不會就成為這個軍事審判的對象剛剛部長也講得很清楚啦就是說如果不是軍人就不會是但是如果是一般的民眾涉入了相關的事件當中那麼透過軍人然後達到洩密的時候那像這樣的案件該如何處理\n\n06:31.545 --> 06:36.936\n如果是現役軍人犯這個實務上的犯罪的話那就屬於受軍事審判了\n\n06:37.867 --> 07:04.253\n但是如果說一般的民眾他在參與案件期間他會變如果在這個案件當中他是其中但他不是現役軍人必須要現役軍人的時候犯罪好那言下之意這已經講得非常清楚了就是說這個軍事審判即使這個制度重啟因為他是要職務上犯罪所以他一定是現役軍人他有可能職務上犯罪他不是現役軍人邏輯上是不可能犯我們講的所謂的軍事犯\n\n07:04.753 --> 07:11.675\n好所以說這個也是非常的清楚包括就是只要你不是現役軍人就不會納入這個軍事審判的制度但是根據本席所找的這些媒體的報導大概我們一年當中大概有300多件的相關的這個所謂軍事審判的案件就是軍人涉入的案件\n\n07:25.120 --> 07:29.501\n那麼以我去年4月的時候曾經就質詢過了那就是我們根據這個陸海空軍懲戒法跟軍人權益的處理辦法我們有曾經招募過國防法務官28名那麼如果加總起來所現有的包括我們的將官上位62名中校的54名衛官是7名再加書記官等等\n\n07:50.405 --> 08:02.795\n在面對現在現有的軍事法官的數量來得及或者是說能夠應付現有的三百多件的案件嗎那麼在這個部分的準備因為其實當時我在質詢的時候就有特別提到那我那時候只是在想說我們在招募這個所謂國防法務官的過程當中其實\n\n08:12.183 --> 08:34.113\n如果對比這個一般的律師的考試當時是剛好兩者是撞齊的嘛所以我就覺得說那這兩者之間會不會我們招募上面會有一些所謂誘因不夠或者是風險不夠但現在看得出來其實應該是是不是事前就已經要做這個準備但是目前到底我們的軍法官數量夠不夠陰影\n\n08:36.267 --> 08:56.542\n跟委員報告,剛好因為現在陸海公軍懲罰法,那個軍人權益事件處理法通過,那已經今年七月要實施那所以地方軍事法院要成立全保會,來負責處理這個再申訴跟附審的案件那麼另外高等軍事法院要處理這個行政訴訟的這個部分\n\n08:58.403 --> 09:25.679\n那所以這個部分這個應該開始就剛好有一部分的能量來進行一個練兵尤其特別是行政訴訟部分那現在又要跨到這一個軍事審判這個部分來那這分三點跟委員說明第一點他三百件裡面到底是哪些犯軍事職務上的犯罪這個我們要跟受案員查明因為有可能是犯一般的刑事犯罪這是第一點第二點我們以後軍法官的這個部分要確保他的獨立性\n\n09:26.119 --> 09:51.914\n所以我們剛剛才會提到這些相關的組織法或者是人事條例那第三個就是我們可能會有一個多元選材的管道就是說我們的來源有可能是透過考試有可能透過這個他本身是律師那我們經過甄選那也有可能是國安法務官也經過甄選但是這個部分我們為了確保甄選的公平我們應該會請納入外部的人員來成立這個人事審議委員會\n\n09:53.475 --> 10:13.544\n來進行一個多元的選裁那確保這個軍法官的品質這樣子好所以我想本席提出這樣質詢也是認為說這個不能真的只有所謂戰時尤其是現在平時戰時也進入一個灰色地帶那麼提早來做這些包括相關的軍法官的這個所謂人才的培育或者是充實是相當重要的謝謝這個部長的回覆謝謝好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.572,"end":1.657,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請顧部長有請部長"},{"start":9.751,"end":23.781,"text":"是 林委員好好 部長好部長 我想要針對我昨天在總質詢的時候問到的有關於紅色供應鏈 去紅色供應鏈這個部分因為我想前面很多委員都已經質詢到了有關於就是我們這2025年的國防的四期的國防總檢討當中那麼對比2021年我們可以看到是台美的國際合作跟交流尤其在軍事上面其實已經是越來越明顯"},{"start":37.711,"end":63.245,"text":"那麼在軍事交流合作的部分它除了是有專節納入之外包括這當中也特別提到了軍事的融資還有就是總統提用權的部分我想美國政府對於台灣的這個軍事的合作已經展現得非常的明白但是怎麼樣能夠去紅色供應鏈這個部分本席還是有一些存疑的因為以本席所關注到的就是說現在很多的廠商"},{"start":64.226,"end":80.353,"text":"它是不是被列入所謂的紅色供應鏈或紅色廠商這個部分它其實是有一些可以鑽的巧門比如說它是來自於中國或者是中國內部旗下黨政軍所經營的"},{"start":83.134,"end":103.303,"text":"孫公司甚至於是曾孫公司他到境外比如說新加坡之外現在更可能的包括像美國或其他地方他來設立一個公司之後然後在台灣再來設立子公司或相對的方法我想這些手法跟巧門因為部長過去的資金力我想您一定很了解"},{"start":103.823,"end":117.372,"text":"但是我要提到的是在我們做採購的過程中或合作的過程當中現在政府內部到底有沒有這樣的一個SOP或是有這樣的組織比如說昨天像經濟部他會針對投審會去看這個公司是不是所謂有中資可是通常我們第一時間我們不會真的去採購的時候特別去問經濟部除非有一些疑惑的時候"},{"start":130.66,"end":137.63,"text":"那麼如果是這樣在已經名列入在所謂的接軌供應鏈安全體系當中要去紅色供應鏈的時候到底有沒有一個跨部會廠商的查核系統而這個系統該如何建置有沒有一個想法跟方向"},{"start":149.802,"end":176.076,"text":"我想大概要分兩個部分一個是我們採購的貨品本身嘛那這個要去紅那另外一個就是說來投標的廠商要去紅大概是這兩塊的部分是那就這兩塊的部分這個我們採購的貨品的部分呢我們現在跟採購是多次的討論之後我們現在大致上有一個全排性的一套這個"},{"start":177.977,"end":203.571,"text":"禁用這個大陸地區香港澳門產品的認證跟旅業驗收的作業指導的一個要點那這個要點我們現在就是按照這個要點要去跟這個所有這個會辦理採購業務的人來做一個宣講那就這個部分會涉及到說從一開始的規範然後到後面的驗收要如何進行驗收"},{"start":204.871,"end":216.434,"text":"這個大概都要有一套的一個程序那現在委員剛剛提到的另外一塊更麻煩的當然就是這個廠商的這個部分我想就是採購要點在那裡但是我相信我們的相關的這個國軍的單位絕對不會蓄意去都是事後被發現只好用這個要點去解約但是前期的預防就是部長你現在回應的有沒有可能有機會預防或者用什麼方式"},{"start":232.739,"end":256.326,"text":"可以有機會跨部會的先做查詢應該是說這個問題要從這個他本身這個股東的這個結構面上面來看那如果按照我過去在國安會的經驗就是說當這個股東的這個結構他上層的結構"},{"start":261.033,"end":284.48,"text":"可能是這些什麼VBI公司或者是這些其他國外的這個公司那這個的時候呢可能就要稍微要注意去看就是說它在上一層它是長什麼樣子那這個部分呢有些時候呢就據我們的國內以前是投審會現在應該是失了吧"},{"start":288.064,"end":312.94,"text":"他要做一個要去跟他們去做一個相關的一個諮詢那就這一塊的部分我必須承認他有些有難度譬如說BBI公司BBI公司他就不容易去清查這個部分所以這個部分還要透過一些相關的國安機制他們要協同去進行調查"},{"start":313.28,"end":341.626,"text":"好 我會提出這個質詢就是也是提醒國防部跟其他的跨部會在處理有時候去紅色供應鏈的時候恐怕不能只有國防部就像部長所說的還是需要其他國安單位的協助尤其是我們在做軍事採購的部分我相信國防部也會特別的仔細那當然我也希望是有一個跨部會的機制能夠來做一個協助啦因為這個確實不是那麼容易都比較容易是亡羊補牢或是事後才發現或是有人舉發這個部分 對"},{"start":343.126,"end":359.696,"text":"那另外一個其實本席要關注的問題就是剛剛呢有委員其實就特別審好幾個委員都提到了有關於我們現在軍事審判制度的部分甚至於有委員在質詢的時候也把這個名嘴的這個網路的"},{"start":362.578,"end":374.582,"text":"節目都放上來了那麼我想這個大概就是大家需要在社會上還做進一步釐清的就是當然委員他自己擔心的是他不是軍人那麼他會不會就成為這個軍事審判的對象剛剛部長也講得很清楚啦就是說如果不是軍人就不會是但是如果是一般的民眾涉入了相關的事件當中那麼透過軍人然後達到洩密的時候那像這樣的案件該如何處理"},{"start":391.545,"end":396.936,"text":"如果是現役軍人犯這個實務上的犯罪的話那就屬於受軍事審判了"},{"start":397.867,"end":424.253,"text":"但是如果說一般的民眾他在參與案件期間他會變如果在這個案件當中他是其中但他不是現役軍人必須要現役軍人的時候犯罪好那言下之意這已經講得非常清楚了就是說這個軍事審判即使這個制度重啟因為他是要職務上犯罪所以他一定是現役軍人他有可能職務上犯罪他不是現役軍人邏輯上是不可能犯我們講的所謂的軍事犯"},{"start":424.753,"end":431.675,"text":"好 所以說這個也是非常的清楚包括就是只要你不是現役軍人就不會納入這個軍事審判的制度但是根據本席所找的這些媒體的報導大概我們一年當中大概有300多件的相關的這個所謂軍事審判的案件就是軍人涉入的案件"},{"start":445.12,"end":449.501,"text":"那麼以我去年4月的時候曾經就質詢過了那就是我們根據這個陸海空軍懲戒法跟軍人權益的處理辦法我們有曾經招募過國防法務官28名那麼如果加總起來所現有的包括我們的將官上位62名中校的54名衛官是7名再加書記官等等"},{"start":470.405,"end":482.795,"text":"在面對現在現有的軍事法官的數量來得及或者是說能夠應付現有的三百多件的案件嗎那麼在這個部分的準備因為其實當時我在質詢的時候就有特別提到那我那時候只是在想說我們在招募這個所謂國防法務官的過程當中其實"},{"start":492.183,"end":514.113,"text":"如果對比這個一般的律師的考試當時是剛好兩者是撞齊的嘛所以我就覺得說那這兩者之間會不會我們招募上面會有一些所謂誘因不夠或者是風險不夠但現在看得出來其實應該是是不是事前就已經要做這個準備但是目前到底我們的軍法官數量夠不夠陰影"},{"start":516.267,"end":536.542,"text":"跟委員報告,剛好因為現在陸海公軍懲罰法,那個軍人權益事件處理法通過,那已經今年七月要實施那所以地方軍事法院要成立全保會,來負責處理這個再申訴跟附審的案件那麼另外高等軍事法院要處理這個行政訴訟的這個部分"},{"start":538.403,"end":565.679,"text":"那所以這個部分這個應該開始就剛好有一部分的能量來進行一個練兵尤其特別是行政訴訟部分那現在又要跨到這一個軍事審判這個部分來那這分三點跟委員說明第一點他三百件裡面到底是哪些犯軍事職務上的犯罪這個我們要跟受案員查明因為有可能是犯一般的刑事犯罪這是第一點第二點我們以後軍法官的這個部分要確保他的獨立性"},{"start":566.119,"end":591.914,"text":"所以我們剛剛才會提到這些相關的組織法或者是人事條例那第三個就是我們可能會有一個多元選材的管道就是說我們的來源有可能是透過考試有可能透過這個他本身是律師那我們經過甄選那也有可能是國安法務官也經過甄選但是這個部分我們為了確保甄選的公平我們應該會請納入外部的人員來成立這個人事審議委員會"},{"start":593.475,"end":613.544,"text":"來進行一個多元的選裁那確保這個軍法官的品質這樣子好 所以我想本席提出這樣質詢也是認為說這個不能真的只有所謂戰時尤其是現在平時戰時也進入一個灰色地帶那麼提早來做這些包括相關的軍法官的這個所謂人才的培育或者是充實是相當重要的謝謝這個部長的回覆 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":416,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（10時53分）謝謝主席。主席，有請顧部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["顧部長立雄：林委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：部長好。我想針對我在昨天總質詢的時候問到的有關紅色供應鏈、去紅色供應鏈這個部分。前面很多委員都已經質詢到，在2025年的「四年期國防總檢討」當中，對比2021年，我們可以看到臺美國際合作和交流，尤其是在軍事上面其實已經越來越明顯。在軍事交流合作部分，除了有專節納入之外，其中也特別提到軍事融資，還有總統提用權的部分，我想美國政府對於臺灣的軍事合作已經展現得非常明白，但是對於怎麼樣能夠去紅色供應鏈的部分，本席還是有一些存疑的。","因為根據本席所關注到的，現在很多廠商是不是被列入所謂的紅色供應鏈或紅色廠商，其實是有一些可以鑽的巧門，比如說它是來自中國或者是中國內部黨政軍旗下所經營的孫公司，甚至曾孫公司，它到境外比如說新加坡或是現在更可能的包括像美國或其他地方去設立一個公司，然後再來臺灣設立子公司或是用其他相對的方法。對於這些手法跟巧門，因為部長過去的資（經）歷，我想你一定很瞭解，但我要提到的是，在採購或合作的過程當中，政府內部現在到底有沒有這樣一個SOP或是有這樣的組織？比如說像經濟部，他們昨天說會透過投審會去看這個公司有沒有所謂的中資，可是我們採購的時候，通常不會在第一時間就特別去問經濟部，除非是有一些疑惑的時候。如果是這樣，已經名列在所謂的接軌供應鏈安全體系當中、要去紅色供應鏈的時候，到底有沒有一個跨部會的廠商查核系統？對於這個系統該如何建置，你們有沒有一個想法跟方向？"],["顧部長立雄：這大概要分兩個部分，一個是我們採購的貨品本身要去紅，另外一個就是來投標的廠商要去紅，大概是分成這兩塊。有關我們採購的貨品，在跟採購室多次討論之後，我們現在大致上有一套全盤性的禁用大陸地區、香港、澳門產品認定及履約驗收作業指導要點，我們現在就是按照這個要點，要去跟所有辦理採購業務的人進行宣講，這個部分會涉及從一開始的規範，到後面要如何進行驗收，整個都要有一套程序。","委員剛剛提到的另一塊更麻煩的就是廠商的部分，我在國安會……"],["林委員楚茵：採購要點在那裡，我相信相關的國軍單位絕對不會蓄意違反，都是事後被發現，只好用這個要點去解約，但是前期的預防，也就是部長現在要回應的，是否可能有機會預防？或者是用什麼方式可以有機會先做跨部會查詢？"],["顧部長立雄：應該是說，這個問題要從它本身的股東結構面來看，如果按照我過去在國安會的經驗，就是當這個股東的上層結構可能是一些BVI公司或者是其他國外公司的時候，可能就要稍微注意去看它的再上一層是長什麼樣子。這個部分有些時候要去跟國內，以前是投審會，現在應該是投審司，要去跟他們做相關的諮詢。就這一塊的部分，我必須承認有一些難度，比如說BVI公司就不容易去清查，所以還要透過一些相關的國安機制協同進行調查。"],["林委員楚茵：我會提出這個質詢也是要提醒國防部和其他部會在處理去紅色供應鏈的時候，恐怕不能只靠國防部，就像部長所說的，還是需要其他國安單位的協助，尤其是我們在做軍事採購的時候，我相信國防部也會特別仔細。當然，我也希望能有一個跨部會的機制來協助，因為這確實不是那麼容易，所以會變成亡羊補牢，事後才發現或是有人舉發。","另外一個本席要關注的問題就是，剛剛有好幾位委員都提到有關軍事審判制度的部分，甚至也有委員在質詢的時候，把名嘴的網路節目都放上來了，我想這個大概就是社會上需要進一步釐清的。當然，委員自己擔心的是，他不是軍人，那他會不會成為軍事審判的對象。對此，剛剛部長也講得很清楚，就是說，如果不是軍人，就不會是軍事審判的對象。但如果是一般民眾涉入相關事件當中，透過軍人達到洩密的時候，像這樣的案件該如何處理？"],["顧部長立雄：如果是現役軍人犯職務上的犯罪的話，那就屬於受軍事審判。"],["林委員楚茵：但如果一般的民眾在參與案件期間，在這個案件當中，他是其中，但他不是現役軍人。"],["顧部長立雄：必須要是現役軍人的時候犯罪。"],["林委員楚茵：好，言下之意，就已經講得非常清楚了，就是即使這個軍事審判制度重啟……"],["顧部長立雄：因為他是要職務上犯罪，所以他一定是現役軍人，才有可能職務上犯罪，他不是現役軍人，邏輯上不可能是我們講所謂的軍事犯。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以這個已經非常的清楚，只要你不是現役軍人，就不會納入軍事審判的制度。但是根據本席所找的這些媒體報導，我們一年當中，大概有三百多件相關的軍事審判的案件，就是軍人涉入的案件，我去年4月的時候就曾經質詢過了，即根據陸海空軍懲罰法跟軍人權益事件處理法，我們有曾經招募過國防法務官28名，如果加總起來，包括我們的將官、上校62名、中少校54名、尉官是7名，再加上書記官等等，現有的軍事法官的數量來得及或者說能夠應付現有的三百多件的案件嗎？在這個部分的準備，其實當時我在質詢的時候就有特別提到，我那時候只是在想，我們在招募國防法務官的過程當中，如果對比一般的律師考試，當時兩者剛好是撞期嘛，我就覺得那這兩者之間，我們在招募上面會不會有一些所謂誘因不夠或者是風險評估不夠，但現在看得出來，應該事前就已經要做準備，但是目前到底我們的軍法官數量夠不夠因應？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，剛好因為現在陸海空軍懲罰法跟軍人權益事件處理法通過，預計今年7月要實施，所以地方軍事法院要成立權保會負責處理再申訴跟復審的案件，另外高等軍事法院要處理行政訴訟的部分，所以這個部分，應該開始就剛好有一部分的能量來進行練兵，特別是行政訴訟的部分，現在又要跨到軍事審判的部分，這分三點跟委員說明：第一點，300件裡面到底是哪些犯軍事職務上的犯罪，這個我們要跟司法院查明，因為有可能是犯一般的刑事犯罪，這是第一點；第二點，以後軍法官的部分要確保他的獨立性，所以我們剛剛才會提到這些相關的組織法或者是人事條例；第三個，我們可能會有一個多元選才的管道，即我們的來源有可能是透過考試；有可能透過甄選，他本身是律師，我們經過甄選的方式，也有可能是國防法務官也經過甄選，我們為了確保甄選的公平，我們應該會納入外部人員來成立人事審議委員會，來進行多元的選才，確保軍法官的品質。"],["林委員楚茵：好，本席提出這樣的質詢也是認為不能真的只有所謂戰時，尤其是現在平時、戰時也進入一個灰色地帶，提早來做這些包括相關的軍法官人才的培育或者是充實，是相當重要的，謝謝部長的回復，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","現在請翁曉玲委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":316,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-4","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","徐巧芯","李坤城","邱志偉","蔡易餘","林憶君","蘇清泉","王鴻薇"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況暨「四年期國防總檢討」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00016"}}}