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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 468.495, \"end\": 468.635, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 468.635, \"end\": 468.655, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,845 --> 00:00:04,348\n謝謝主席我們請我們的次長好請馬次長委員早安次長早安次長我們那個防災法的修法相當的重要如果在修法的時候會有更多的細部討論但本席認為如果連國土都充滿危害的時候你再怎麼修法跟給預算都來不及\n\n2\n00:00:25,809 --> 00:00:41,658\n我們現在應該做的是看到危機就要處理而不是等到發生危險再來降低傷害去年本席在內政委員會針對國土法、海拔法都有參與修法跟討論為的就是要給台灣這邊土地一個充滿生機的土地\n\n3\n00:00:42,498 --> 00:01:07,818\n但無奈的是不管怎麼修法哪怕我們給再多的預算去做國土復育跟保育都逃避不了我們的土地現在正走向癌症化我是在說民進黨執政之後我們推出了前瞻計畫開啟了大量公共工程的新建還有現在新清單等等這個政策的這個炒房的這個的房市之後台灣的硬體建案繁華了一段時間\n\n4\n00:01:08,999 --> 00:01:23,371\n常常聽到很多工地在缺人像這台找不到人甚至很多建築業者都希望能夠開放外籍移工但在這樣繁華的背後現在卻變成我們子孫要付出這樣龐大的代價\n\n5\n00:01:25,390 --> 00:01:44,700\n我們現在台灣西部有越來越多的糧田雲雲山谷像得了癌症一樣一步一步的死亡凶手是誰凶手就是銀劍工程產生的這些廢棄物跟剩餘的土石四處亂盜你挖開裡面來看有些空間挖開來看裡面有混泥土塊啦馬桶碎片啦石膏板啦\n\n6\n00:01:45,260 --> 00:02:06,627\n還有塑膠浪板還有電線種種這個雲間混合的這個廢棄物像去年啊台南市北門有十七公頃的公幼堤裡面多出一些是廢棄的餘溫跟鹽田它地主是誰地主是我們產生部的國有產屬因為它地主偏僻人間罕見所以就容易被亂盜這些雲間廢棄物那當我們這個土地\n\n7\n00:02:10,928 --> 00:02:36,144\n被這個造土黏土跟磚塊的廢棄物倒完之後它完全不適合耕作它等同於這塊土地判了死刑我想難道你身為營建廢棄物的主管機關內政部都不知道這件事情嗎部長本期要問的問題是說內政部我們現在統計全國這個掩埋型的土質廠截到去年11月底只剩下876萬立方的這個衛納量請問這樣夠不夠\n\n8\n00:02:41,301 --> 00:03:01,641\n目前我們跟地方政府還有環境部在處理這個議題因為數字的話如果根據委員剛剛所提到的公共工程拆遷還有包括我們都更會產生很多的營建廢棄物那這些廢棄物我們的確是需要一個地方去做處理所以現在環境部跟國土署他分別有兩套系統專門處理這個營建廢土史\n\n9\n00:03:03,763 --> 00:03:29,623\n那我們現在也有在進行這個所謂的營建廢棄物的回收作業所以我們在業者的部分我們也有輔導他們去進行這個廢棄物的篩選以後某一些土方可以再利用我們會做再利用所以這個部分就是說從剛剛委員提到的土方的棄土的堆置跟我們土方的回收我們現在是兩方面同時在進行那這個部分我們會一起來努力市長那夠不夠目前以目前的這個衛納量夠嗎\n\n10\n00:03:32,017 --> 00:03:54,625\n跟委員報目前以我的了解目前是不足我們這個部分我們要去增加因為你去年你去年產出你去年統計啦產出需要填滿的土方就達到388萬388立方的立方公尺的估算齁這兩噸就沒了兩噸就沒了齁那再來你你現在營建廢棄物的混合物處理跟再利用也出現落差嘛\n\n11\n00:03:55,686 --> 00:04:02,974\n對你中央許可52家業者每年可以分類回收再利用的是1192萬噸但是實際上進場的處理的只有163萬噸喔那比例不到一成四喔啊現在要想這麼粗的東西才會回去\n\n12\n00:04:11,479 --> 00:04:38,010\n比例根本就不夠啊你進場跟實際上就差不多會這些消失的廢墟跑去哪裡就是亂到嘛那土石廠的價值像我們土石廠的價值好像只是要開立假證明在賺錢啊就很多空殼的這個土石廠他就是只開證明不收土石不然這些東西消失到哪裡去他不會憑空消失啊所以我們合法運作的土石廠其實接近飽和那這樣子是是像市長一講的真的就不夠啊對不對那其實\n\n13\n00:04:40,438 --> 00:04:56,348\n有人說明明就不夠然後中央的數字都說夠都在亂講話這誰講的?不是本席講的這是第一線偵辦亂大化建設檢察官講的他說這供需明顯失衡內政部要負最大責任這跟我講的\n\n14\n00:04:58,250 --> 00:05:14,289\n這個另外就是我們現任的前政務政委員吳哲成委員他也直指我們內政部這部分確實是失職他之前也要求說內政部要盤點我們合適的土地地點由地方來規劃更新現在都快兩年了請問地點在哪邊\n\n15\n00:05:15,703 --> 00:05:31,634\n跟委員報這個我會去查明年之後跟委員回報因為有一些細節在國土署那邊不過這個部分跟委員回報我們是會努力去處理這個供需差的問題因為這個問題不是最近這一兩年才有這是一個非常長期的問題\n\n16\n00:05:32,955 --> 00:05:57,942\n所以你今天提出的這些事我們就在這個相對重要是可是國土的問題是已經擺在眼前要解決我想沒有合法跟足夠的量能當然就讓業者這邊亂套了那不只不止所有的法規還有法規都亂了套從土是讓你開立假證明年單然後供砂石車繞場一圈做假紀錄這個各縣市的這個證明年單的格式也不統一容易被混變過關那地主\n\n17\n00:05:58,302 --> 00:06:20,528\n它也常常被人頭詐騙用來盜這些廢棄物我想種種的問題都看到中央已經明明都清楚這件事情要趕快來解決那我們中央如果還沒有訂定一定的這個土石方的這個檢測方法包括採樣的數量雜質成分跟占比等等這個也困擾我們業界嘛所以這個部分你看連金財院都公佈了看不下去了金財院說\n\n18\n00:06:22,869 --> 00:06:49,292\n營建剩餘土方土石方的處理方案這個未接緊在行政規則缺乏法律授權導致強制力不足而且與廢棄物清理法等多重規範這個範疇重疊主管機關的權責不清廢棄物認定標準模糊能夠造成什麼造成我們執法困難所以這個部分內政部具體的修文什麼時候要做然後什麼時候可以送過來審\n\n19\n00:06:51,537 --> 00:07:14,492\n這跟委員報告我們會後跟委員做說明因為這個部分有一些細節是跨部會要去處理的是那我們有法律上競合的問題那剛剛也跟委員報告就是說除了中央政府之外因為對土資廠部分的管理地方政府其實他有他一定的職長所以最了解土資廠的問題的大概是在地方政府第一線所以這部更應該是來整合這塊是吧這個我們會虛心檢討\n\n20\n00:07:16,993 --> 00:07:20,496\n現在問題不是今年才開始運氣廢棄物的不法利益龐大已經躍升為黑幫收入的前三名已經超越賭場\n\n21\n00:07:32,225 --> 00:07:48,655\n這個行政院也視為重大的經濟犯罪但是我們缺乏打炸、打酒駕的決心所以這部分我們要求內政必須要硬起來不然親臉行政愛鄉土就只會淪為口號那這部分再請政事跟部裡面來研究趕快來解決這個問題好謝謝委員長謝謝市長謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n845\t4348\t謝謝主席 我們請我們的次長好 請馬次長委員早安次長早安 次長我們那個防災法的修法相當的重要如果在修法的時候會有更多的細部討論但本席認為如果連國土都充滿危害的時候你再怎麼修法跟給預算都來不及\n25809\t41658\t我們現在應該做的是看到危機就要處理而不是等到發生危險再來降低傷害去年本席在內政委員會針對國土法、海拔法都有參與修法跟討論為的就是要給台灣這邊土地一個充滿生機的土地\n42498\t67818\t但無奈的是不管怎麼修法哪怕我們給再多的預算去做國土復育跟保育都逃避不了我們的土地現在正走向癌症化我是在說民進黨執政之後我們推出了前瞻計畫開啟了大量公共工程的新建還有現在新清單等等這個政策的這個炒房的這個的房市之後台灣的硬體建案繁華了一段時間\n68999\t83371\t常常聽到很多工地在缺人像這台找不到人甚至很多建築業者都希望能夠開放外籍移工但在這樣繁華的背後現在卻變成我們子孫要付出這樣龐大的代價\n85390\t104700\t我們現在台灣西部有越來越多的糧田雲雲山谷像得了癌症一樣一步一步的死亡凶手是誰凶手就是銀劍工程產生的這些廢棄物跟剩餘的土石四處亂盜你挖開裡面來看有些空間挖開來看裡面有混泥土塊啦馬桶碎片啦石膏板啦\n105260\t126627\t還有塑膠浪板還有電線種種這個雲間混合的這個廢棄物像去年啊台南市北門有十七公頃的公幼堤裡面多出一些是廢棄的餘溫跟鹽田它地主是誰地主是我們產生部的國有產屬因為它地主偏僻人間罕見所以就容易被亂盜這些雲間廢棄物那當我們這個土地\n130928\t156144\t被這個造土 黏土跟磚塊的廢棄物倒完之後它完全不適合耕作它等同於這塊土地判了死刑我想 難道你身為營建廢棄物的主管機關內政部都不知道這件事情嗎部長 本期要問的問題是說內政部我們現在統計全國這個掩埋型的土質廠截到去年11月底只剩下876萬立方的這個衛納量請問這樣夠不夠\n161301\t181641\t目前我們跟地方政府還有環境部在處理這個議題因為數字的話如果根據委員剛剛所提到的公共工程拆遷還有包括我們都更會產生很多的營建廢棄物那這些廢棄物我們的確是需要一個地方去做處理所以現在環境部跟國土署他分別有兩套系統專門處理這個營建廢土史\n183763\t209623\t那我們現在也有在進行這個所謂的營建廢棄物的回收作業所以我們在業者的部分我們也有輔導他們去進行這個廢棄物的篩選以後某一些土方可以再利用我們會做再利用所以這個部分就是說從剛剛委員提到的土方的棄土的堆置跟我們土方的回收我們現在是兩方面同時在進行那這個部分我們會一起來努力市長那夠不夠目前以目前的這個衛納量夠嗎\n212017\t234625\t跟委員報目前以我的了解目前是不足我們這個部分我們要去增加因為你去年你去年產出你去年統計啦產出需要填滿的土方就達到388萬388立方的立方公尺的估算齁這兩噸就沒了兩噸就沒了齁那再來你你現在營建廢棄物的混合物處理跟再利用也出現落差嘛\n235686\t242974\t對 你中央許可52家業者每年可以分類回收再利用的是1192萬噸但是實際上進場的處理的只有163萬噸喔那比例不到一成四喔啊 現在要想這麼粗的東西才會回去\n251479\t278010\t比例根本就不夠啊你進場跟實際上就差不多會這些消失的廢墟跑去哪裡就是亂到嘛那土石廠的價值像我們土石廠的價值好像只是要開立假證明在賺錢啊就很多空殼的這個土石廠他就是只開證明不收土石不然這些東西消失到哪裡去他不會憑空消失啊所以我們合法運作的土石廠其實接近飽和那這樣子是是像市長一講的真的就不夠啊對不對那其實\n280438\t296348\t有人說明明就不夠然後中央的數字都說夠都在亂講話這誰講的?不是本席講的這是第一線偵辦亂大化建設檢察官講的他說這供需明顯失衡內政部要負最大責任這跟我講的\n298250\t314289\t這個另外就是我們現任的前政務政委員吳哲成委員他也直指我們內政部這部分確實是失職他之前也要求說內政部要盤點我們合適的土地地點由地方來規劃更新現在都快兩年了請問地點在哪邊\n315703\t331634\t跟委員報這個我會去查明年之後跟委員回報因為有一些細節在國土署那邊不過這個部分跟委員回報我們是會努力去處理這個供需差的問題因為這個問題不是最近這一兩年才有這是一個非常長期的問題\n332955\t357942\t所以你今天提出的這些事我們就在這個相對重要是可是國土的問題是已經擺在眼前要解決我想沒有合法跟足夠的量能當然就讓業者這邊亂套了那不只不止所有的法規還有法規都亂了套從土是讓你開立假證明年單然後供砂石車繞場一圈做假紀錄這個各縣市的這個證明年單的格式也不統一容易被混變過關那地主\n358302\t380528\t它也常常被人頭詐騙用來盜這些廢棄物我想種種的問題都看到中央已經明明都清楚這件事情要趕快來解決那我們中央如果還沒有訂定一定的這個土石方的這個檢測方法包括採樣的數量雜質成分跟占比等等這個也困擾我們業界嘛所以這個部分你看連金財院都公佈了看不下去了金財院說\n382869\t409292\t營建剩餘土方土石方的處理方案這個未接緊在行政規則缺乏法律授權導致強制力不足而且與廢棄物清理法等多重規範這個範疇重疊主管機關的權責不清廢棄物認定標準模糊能夠造成什麼造成我們執法困難所以這個部分內政部具體的修文什麼時候要做然後什麼時候可以送過來審\n411537\t434492\t這跟委員報告我們會後跟委員做說明因為這個部分有一些細節是跨部會要去處理的是那我們有法律上競合的問題那剛剛也跟委員報告就是說除了中央政府之外因為對土資廠部分的管理地方政府其實他有他一定的職長所以最了解土資廠的問題的大概是在地方政府第一線所以這部更應該是來整合這塊是吧這個我們會虛心檢討\n436993\t440496\t現在問題不是今年才開始運氣廢棄物的不法利益龐大已經躍升為黑幫收入的前三名已經超越賭場\n452225\t468655\t這個行政院也視為重大的經濟犯罪但是我們缺乏打炸、打酒駕的決心所以這部分我們要求內政必須要硬起來不然親臉行政愛鄉土就只會淪為口號那這部分再請政事跟部裡面來研究趕快來解決這個問題好 謝謝委員長謝謝市長 謝謝主席\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我們請我們的次長好 請馬次長委員早安次長早安 次長我們那個防災法的修法相當的重要如果在修法的時候會有更多的細部討論但本席認為如果連國土都充滿危害的時候你再怎麼修法跟給預算都來不及\n我們現在應該做的是看到危機就要處理而不是等到發生危險再來降低傷害去年本席在內政委員會針對國土法、海拔法都有參與修法跟討論為的就是要給台灣這邊土地一個充滿生機的土地\n但無奈的是不管怎麼修法哪怕我們給再多的預算去做國土復育跟保育都逃避不了我們的土地現在正走向癌症化我是在說民進黨執政之後我們推出了前瞻計畫開啟了大量公共工程的新建還有現在新清單等等這個政策的這個炒房的這個的房市之後台灣的硬體建案繁華了一段時間\n常常聽到很多工地在缺人像這台找不到人甚至很多建築業者都希望能夠開放外籍移工但在這樣繁華的背後現在卻變成我們子孫要付出這樣龐大的代價\n我們現在台灣西部有越來越多的糧田雲雲山谷像得了癌症一樣一步一步的死亡凶手是誰凶手就是銀劍工程產生的這些廢棄物跟剩餘的土石四處亂盜你挖開裡面來看有些空間挖開來看裡面有混泥土塊啦馬桶碎片啦石膏板啦\n還有塑膠浪板還有電線種種這個雲間混合的這個廢棄物像去年啊台南市北門有十七公頃的公幼堤裡面多出一些是廢棄的餘溫跟鹽田它地主是誰地主是我們產生部的國有產屬因為它地主偏僻人間罕見所以就容易被亂盜這些雲間廢棄物那當我們這個土地\n被這個造土 黏土跟磚塊的廢棄物倒完之後它完全不適合耕作它等同於這塊土地判了死刑我想 難道你身為營建廢棄物的主管機關內政部都不知道這件事情嗎部長 本期要問的問題是說內政部我們現在統計全國這個掩埋型的土質廠截到去年11月底只剩下876萬立方的這個衛納量請問這樣夠不夠\n目前我們跟地方政府還有環境部在處理這個議題因為數字的話如果根據委員剛剛所提到的公共工程拆遷還有包括我們都更會產生很多的營建廢棄物那這些廢棄物我們的確是需要一個地方去做處理所以現在環境部跟國土署他分別有兩套系統專門處理這個營建廢土史\n那我們現在也有在進行這個所謂的營建廢棄物的回收作業所以我們在業者的部分我們也有輔導他們去進行這個廢棄物的篩選以後某一些土方可以再利用我們會做再利用所以這個部分就是說從剛剛委員提到的土方的棄土的堆置跟我們土方的回收我們現在是兩方面同時在進行那這個部分我們會一起來努力市長那夠不夠目前以目前的這個衛納量夠嗎\n跟委員報目前以我的了解目前是不足我們這個部分我們要去增加因為你去年你去年產出你去年統計啦產出需要填滿的土方就達到388萬388立方的立方公尺的估算齁這兩噸就沒了兩噸就沒了齁那再來你你現在營建廢棄物的混合物處理跟再利用也出現落差嘛\n對 你中央許可52家業者每年可以分類回收再利用的是1192萬噸但是實際上進場的處理的只有163萬噸喔那比例不到一成四喔啊 現在要想這麼粗的東西才會回去\n比例根本就不夠啊你進場跟實際上就差不多會這些消失的廢墟跑去哪裡就是亂到嘛那土石廠的價值像我們土石廠的價值好像只是要開立假證明在賺錢啊就很多空殼的這個土石廠他就是只開證明不收土石不然這些東西消失到哪裡去他不會憑空消失啊所以我們合法運作的土石廠其實接近飽和那這樣子是是像市長一講的真的就不夠啊對不對那其實\n有人說明明就不夠然後中央的數字都說夠都在亂講話這誰講的?不是本席講的這是第一線偵辦亂大化建設檢察官講的他說這供需明顯失衡內政部要負最大責任這跟我講的\n這個另外就是我們現任的前政務政委員吳哲成委員他也直指我們內政部這部分確實是失職他之前也要求說內政部要盤點我們合適的土地地點由地方來規劃更新現在都快兩年了請問地點在哪邊\n跟委員報這個我會去查明年之後跟委員回報因為有一些細節在國土署那邊不過這個部分跟委員回報我們是會努力去處理這個供需差的問題因為這個問題不是最近這一兩年才有這是一個非常長期的問題\n所以你今天提出的這些事我們就在這個相對重要是可是國土的問題是已經擺在眼前要解決我想沒有合法跟足夠的量能當然就讓業者這邊亂套了那不只不止所有的法規還有法規都亂了套從土是讓你開立假證明年單然後供砂石車繞場一圈做假紀錄這個各縣市的這個證明年單的格式也不統一容易被混變過關那地主\n它也常常被人頭詐騙用來盜這些廢棄物我想種種的問題都看到中央已經明明都清楚這件事情要趕快來解決那我們中央如果還沒有訂定一定的這個土石方的這個檢測方法包括採樣的數量雜質成分跟占比等等這個也困擾我們業界嘛所以這個部分你看連金財院都公佈了看不下去了金財院說\n營建剩餘土方土石方的處理方案這個未接緊在行政規則缺乏法律授權導致強制力不足而且與廢棄物清理法等多重規範這個範疇重疊主管機關的權責不清廢棄物認定標準模糊能夠造成什麼造成我們執法困難所以這個部分內政部具體的修文什麼時候要做然後什麼時候可以送過來審\n這跟委員報告我們會後跟委員做說明因為這個部分有一些細節是跨部會要去處理的是那我們有法律上競合的問題那剛剛也跟委員報告就是說除了中央政府之外因為對土資廠部分的管理地方政府其實他有他一定的職長所以最了解土資廠的問題的大概是在地方政府第一線所以這部更應該是來整合這塊是吧這個我們會虛心檢討\n現在問題不是今年才開始運氣廢棄物的不法利益龐大已經躍升為黑幫收入的前三名已經超越賭場\n這個行政院也視為重大的經濟犯罪但是我們缺乏打炸、打酒駕的決心所以這部分我們要求內政必須要硬起來不然親臉行政愛鄉土就只會淪為口號那這部分再請政事跟部裡面來研究趕快來解決這個問題好 謝謝委員長謝謝市長 謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.845 --> 00:04.348\n謝謝主席我們請我們的次長好請馬次長委員早安次長早安次長我們那個防災法的修法相當的重要如果在修法的時候會有更多的細部討論但本席認為如果連國土都充滿危害的時候你再怎麼修法跟給預算都來不及\n\n00:25.809 --> 00:41.658\n我們現在應該做的是看到危機就要處理而不是等到發生危險再來降低傷害去年本席在內政委員會針對國土法、海拔法都有參與修法跟討論為的就是要給台灣這邊土地一個充滿生機的土地\n\n00:42.498 --> 01:07.818\n但無奈的是不管怎麼修法哪怕我們給再多的預算去做國土復育跟保育都逃避不了我們的土地現在正走向癌症化我是在說民進黨執政之後我們推出了前瞻計畫開啟了大量公共工程的新建還有現在新清單等等這個政策的這個炒房的這個的房市之後台灣的硬體建案繁華了一段時間\n\n01:08.999 --> 01:23.371\n常常聽到很多工地在缺人像這台找不到人甚至很多建築業者都希望能夠開放外籍移工但在這樣繁華的背後現在卻變成我們子孫要付出這樣龐大的代價\n\n01:25.390 --> 01:44.700\n我們現在台灣西部有越來越多的糧田雲雲山谷像得了癌症一樣一步一步的死亡凶手是誰凶手就是銀劍工程產生的這些廢棄物跟剩餘的土石四處亂盜你挖開裡面來看有些空間挖開來看裡面有混泥土塊啦馬桶碎片啦石膏板啦\n\n01:45.260 --> 02:06.627\n還有塑膠浪板還有電線種種這個雲間混合的這個廢棄物像去年啊台南市北門有十七公頃的公幼堤裡面多出一些是廢棄的餘溫跟鹽田它地主是誰地主是我們產生部的國有產屬因為它地主偏僻人間罕見所以就容易被亂盜這些雲間廢棄物那當我們這個土地\n\n02:10.928 --> 02:36.144\n被這個造土黏土跟磚塊的廢棄物倒完之後它完全不適合耕作它等同於這塊土地判了死刑我想難道你身為營建廢棄物的主管機關內政部都不知道這件事情嗎部長本期要問的問題是說內政部我們現在統計全國這個掩埋型的土質廠截到去年11月底只剩下876萬立方的這個衛納量請問這樣夠不夠\n\n02:41.301 --> 03:01.641\n目前我們跟地方政府還有環境部在處理這個議題因為數字的話如果根據委員剛剛所提到的公共工程拆遷還有包括我們都更會產生很多的營建廢棄物那這些廢棄物我們的確是需要一個地方去做處理所以現在環境部跟國土署他分別有兩套系統專門處理這個營建廢土史\n\n03:03.763 --> 03:29.623\n那我們現在也有在進行這個所謂的營建廢棄物的回收作業所以我們在業者的部分我們也有輔導他們去進行這個廢棄物的篩選以後某一些土方可以再利用我們會做再利用所以這個部分就是說從剛剛委員提到的土方的棄土的堆置跟我們土方的回收我們現在是兩方面同時在進行那這個部分我們會一起來努力市長那夠不夠目前以目前的這個衛納量夠嗎\n\n03:32.017 --> 03:54.625\n跟委員報目前以我的了解目前是不足我們這個部分我們要去增加因為你去年你去年產出你去年統計啦產出需要填滿的土方就達到388萬388立方的立方公尺的估算齁這兩噸就沒了兩噸就沒了齁那再來你你現在營建廢棄物的混合物處理跟再利用也出現落差嘛\n\n03:55.686 --> 04:02.974\n對你中央許可52家業者每年可以分類回收再利用的是1192萬噸但是實際上進場的處理的只有163萬噸喔那比例不到一成四喔啊現在要想這麼粗的東西才會回去\n\n04:11.479 --> 04:38.010\n比例根本就不夠啊你進場跟實際上就差不多會這些消失的廢墟跑去哪裡就是亂到嘛那土石廠的價值像我們土石廠的價值好像只是要開立假證明在賺錢啊就很多空殼的這個土石廠他就是只開證明不收土石不然這些東西消失到哪裡去他不會憑空消失啊所以我們合法運作的土石廠其實接近飽和那這樣子是是像市長一講的真的就不夠啊對不對那其實\n\n04:40.438 --> 04:56.348\n有人說明明就不夠然後中央的數字都說夠都在亂講話這誰講的?不是本席講的這是第一線偵辦亂大化建設檢察官講的他說這供需明顯失衡內政部要負最大責任這跟我講的\n\n04:58.250 --> 05:14.289\n這個另外就是我們現任的前政務政委員吳哲成委員他也直指我們內政部這部分確實是失職他之前也要求說內政部要盤點我們合適的土地地點由地方來規劃更新現在都快兩年了請問地點在哪邊\n\n05:15.703 --> 05:31.634\n跟委員報這個我會去查明年之後跟委員回報因為有一些細節在國土署那邊不過這個部分跟委員回報我們是會努力去處理這個供需差的問題因為這個問題不是最近這一兩年才有這是一個非常長期的問題\n\n05:32.955 --> 05:57.942\n所以你今天提出的這些事我們就在這個相對重要是可是國土的問題是已經擺在眼前要解決我想沒有合法跟足夠的量能當然就讓業者這邊亂套了那不只不止所有的法規還有法規都亂了套從土是讓你開立假證明年單然後供砂石車繞場一圈做假紀錄這個各縣市的這個證明年單的格式也不統一容易被混變過關那地主\n\n05:58.302 --> 06:20.528\n它也常常被人頭詐騙用來盜這些廢棄物我想種種的問題都看到中央已經明明都清楚這件事情要趕快來解決那我們中央如果還沒有訂定一定的這個土石方的這個檢測方法包括採樣的數量雜質成分跟占比等等這個也困擾我們業界嘛所以這個部分你看連金財院都公佈了看不下去了金財院說\n\n06:22.869 --> 06:49.292\n營建剩餘土方土石方的處理方案這個未接緊在行政規則缺乏法律授權導致強制力不足而且與廢棄物清理法等多重規範這個範疇重疊主管機關的權責不清廢棄物認定標準模糊能夠造成什麼造成我們執法困難所以這個部分內政部具體的修文什麼時候要做然後什麼時候可以送過來審\n\n06:51.537 --> 07:14.492\n這跟委員報告我們會後跟委員做說明因為這個部分有一些細節是跨部會要去處理的是那我們有法律上競合的問題那剛剛也跟委員報告就是說除了中央政府之外因為對土資廠部分的管理地方政府其實他有他一定的職長所以最了解土資廠的問題的大概是在地方政府第一線所以這部更應該是來整合這塊是吧這個我們會虛心檢討\n\n07:16.993 --> 07:20.496\n現在問題不是今年才開始運氣廢棄物的不法利益龐大已經躍升為黑幫收入的前三名已經超越賭場\n\n07:32.225 --> 07:48.655\n這個行政院也視為重大的經濟犯罪但是我們缺乏打炸、打酒駕的決心所以這部分我們要求內政必須要硬起來不然親臉行政愛鄉土就只會淪為口號那這部分再請政事跟部裡面來研究趕快來解決這個問題好謝謝委員長謝謝市長謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.845,"end":4.348,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請我們的次長好 請馬次長委員早安次長早安 次長我們那個防災法的修法相當的重要如果在修法的時候會有更多的細部討論但本席認為如果連國土都充滿危害的時候你再怎麼修法跟給預算都來不及"},{"start":25.809,"end":41.658,"text":"我們現在應該做的是看到危機就要處理而不是等到發生危險再來降低傷害去年本席在內政委員會針對國土法、海拔法都有參與修法跟討論為的就是要給台灣這邊土地一個充滿生機的土地"},{"start":42.498,"end":67.818,"text":"但無奈的是不管怎麼修法哪怕我們給再多的預算去做國土復育跟保育都逃避不了我們的土地現在正走向癌症化我是在說民進黨執政之後我們推出了前瞻計畫開啟了大量公共工程的新建還有現在新清單等等這個政策的這個炒房的這個的房市之後台灣的硬體建案繁華了一段時間"},{"start":68.999,"end":83.371,"text":"常常聽到很多工地在缺人像這台找不到人甚至很多建築業者都希望能夠開放外籍移工但在這樣繁華的背後現在卻變成我們子孫要付出這樣龐大的代價"},{"start":85.39,"end":104.7,"text":"我們現在台灣西部有越來越多的糧田雲雲山谷像得了癌症一樣一步一步的死亡凶手是誰凶手就是銀劍工程產生的這些廢棄物跟剩餘的土石四處亂盜你挖開裡面來看有些空間挖開來看裡面有混泥土塊啦馬桶碎片啦石膏板啦"},{"start":105.26,"end":126.627,"text":"還有塑膠浪板還有電線種種這個雲間混合的這個廢棄物像去年啊台南市北門有十七公頃的公幼堤裡面多出一些是廢棄的餘溫跟鹽田它地主是誰地主是我們產生部的國有產屬因為它地主偏僻人間罕見所以就容易被亂盜這些雲間廢棄物那當我們這個土地"},{"start":130.928,"end":156.144,"text":"被這個造土 黏土跟磚塊的廢棄物倒完之後它完全不適合耕作它等同於這塊土地判了死刑我想 難道你身為營建廢棄物的主管機關內政部都不知道這件事情嗎部長 本期要問的問題是說內政部我們現在統計全國這個掩埋型的土質廠截到去年11月底只剩下876萬立方的這個衛納量請問這樣夠不夠"},{"start":161.301,"end":181.641,"text":"目前我們跟地方政府還有環境部在處理這個議題因為數字的話如果根據委員剛剛所提到的公共工程拆遷還有包括我們都更會產生很多的營建廢棄物那這些廢棄物我們的確是需要一個地方去做處理所以現在環境部跟國土署他分別有兩套系統專門處理這個營建廢土史"},{"start":183.763,"end":209.623,"text":"那我們現在也有在進行這個所謂的營建廢棄物的回收作業所以我們在業者的部分我們也有輔導他們去進行這個廢棄物的篩選以後某一些土方可以再利用我們會做再利用所以這個部分就是說從剛剛委員提到的土方的棄土的堆置跟我們土方的回收我們現在是兩方面同時在進行那這個部分我們會一起來努力市長那夠不夠目前以目前的這個衛納量夠嗎"},{"start":212.017,"end":234.625,"text":"跟委員報目前以我的了解目前是不足我們這個部分我們要去增加因為你去年你去年產出你去年統計啦產出需要填滿的土方就達到388萬388立方的立方公尺的估算齁這兩噸就沒了兩噸就沒了齁那再來你你現在營建廢棄物的混合物處理跟再利用也出現落差嘛"},{"start":235.686,"end":242.974,"text":"對 你中央許可52家業者每年可以分類回收再利用的是1192萬噸但是實際上進場的處理的只有163萬噸喔那比例不到一成四喔啊 現在要想這麼粗的東西才會回去"},{"start":251.479,"end":278.01,"text":"比例根本就不夠啊你進場跟實際上就差不多會這些消失的廢墟跑去哪裡就是亂到嘛那土石廠的價值像我們土石廠的價值好像只是要開立假證明在賺錢啊就很多空殼的這個土石廠他就是只開證明不收土石不然這些東西消失到哪裡去他不會憑空消失啊所以我們合法運作的土石廠其實接近飽和那這樣子是是像市長一講的真的就不夠啊對不對那其實"},{"start":280.438,"end":296.348,"text":"有人說明明就不夠然後中央的數字都說夠都在亂講話這誰講的?不是本席講的這是第一線偵辦亂大化建設檢察官講的他說這供需明顯失衡內政部要負最大責任這跟我講的"},{"start":298.25,"end":314.289,"text":"這個另外就是我們現任的前政務政委員吳哲成委員他也直指我們內政部這部分確實是失職他之前也要求說內政部要盤點我們合適的土地地點由地方來規劃更新現在都快兩年了請問地點在哪邊"},{"start":315.703,"end":331.634,"text":"跟委員報這個我會去查明年之後跟委員回報因為有一些細節在國土署那邊不過這個部分跟委員回報我們是會努力去處理這個供需差的問題因為這個問題不是最近這一兩年才有這是一個非常長期的問題"},{"start":332.955,"end":357.942,"text":"所以你今天提出的這些事我們就在這個相對重要是可是國土的問題是已經擺在眼前要解決我想沒有合法跟足夠的量能當然就讓業者這邊亂套了那不只不止所有的法規還有法規都亂了套從土是讓你開立假證明年單然後供砂石車繞場一圈做假紀錄這個各縣市的這個證明年單的格式也不統一容易被混變過關那地主"},{"start":358.302,"end":380.528,"text":"它也常常被人頭詐騙用來盜這些廢棄物我想種種的問題都看到中央已經明明都清楚這件事情要趕快來解決那我們中央如果還沒有訂定一定的這個土石方的這個檢測方法包括採樣的數量雜質成分跟占比等等這個也困擾我們業界嘛所以這個部分你看連金財院都公佈了看不下去了金財院說"},{"start":382.869,"end":409.292,"text":"營建剩餘土方土石方的處理方案這個未接緊在行政規則缺乏法律授權導致強制力不足而且與廢棄物清理法等多重規範這個範疇重疊主管機關的權責不清廢棄物認定標準模糊能夠造成什麼造成我們執法困難所以這個部分內政部具體的修文什麼時候要做然後什麼時候可以送過來審"},{"start":411.537,"end":434.492,"text":"這跟委員報告我們會後跟委員做說明因為這個部分有一些細節是跨部會要去處理的是那我們有法律上競合的問題那剛剛也跟委員報告就是說除了中央政府之外因為對土資廠部分的管理地方政府其實他有他一定的職長所以最了解土資廠的問題的大概是在地方政府第一線所以這部更應該是來整合這塊是吧這個我們會虛心檢討"},{"start":436.993,"end":440.496,"text":"現在問題不是今年才開始運氣廢棄物的不法利益龐大已經躍升為黑幫收入的前三名已經超越賭場"},{"start":452.225,"end":468.655,"text":"這個行政院也視為重大的經濟犯罪但是我們缺乏打炸、打酒駕的決心所以這部分我們要求內政必須要硬起來不然親臉行政愛鄉土就只會淪為口號那這部分再請政事跟部裡面來研究趕快來解決這個問題好 謝謝委員長謝謝市長 謝謝主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":376,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（10時12分）謝謝主席，請次長。"],["主席：請馬次長。"],["馬次長士元：委員早安。"],["黃委員建賓：次長早安。防災法的修法相當的重要，不過在修法的時候會有更多的細部討論，但本席認為，如果連國土都充滿危害的時候，再怎麼修法跟給預算都來不及，我們現在應該做的是看到危機就要處理，而不是等到發生危險再來降低傷害。去年本席在內政委員會，針對國土法、海保法都有參與修法跟討論，為的就是要給臺灣這片土地一個充滿生機的土地，但無奈的是，不管怎麼修法，哪怕我們給再多的預算去做國土復育跟保育，都逃避不了我們的土地現在正走向癌症化。民進黨執政之後，我們推出了前瞻計畫，開啟了大量公共工程的興建，還有現在新青安等等政策炒房之後，臺灣的硬體建案繁華了一段時間，常常聽到很多工地在缺人、找不到人，甚至很多建築業者都希望能夠開放外籍移工。但在繁華的背後，卻變成我們子孫要付出相當龐大的代價，現在臺灣西部有越來越多的良田、魚塭、山谷像得了癌症一樣，一步一步的死亡，兇手就是營建工程產生的廢棄物跟剩餘的土石四處亂倒，有些空地挖開來看，裡面有混凝土塊、馬桶、碎片、石膏板、塑膠浪板、電線種種營建混合廢棄物。像去年臺南市北門蚵寮保安段有17公頃的國有地裡面多出廢棄的魚塭跟鹽田，地主是財政部的國有財產署，因為地處偏僻、人煙罕至，所以容易被亂倒營建廢棄物，當土地被皂土、黏土跟磚塊廢棄物倒完之後，完全不適合耕作，等同這塊土地判了死刑。我想，難道內政部身為營建廢棄物的主管機關，都不知道這件事情嗎？部長，本席要問的問題是，內政部現在統計全國掩埋型的土資廠，截止到去年10月底，只剩下876萬立方的胃納量，請問這樣夠不夠？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，目前我們跟地方政府還有環境部在處理這個議題。數字的話，如果根據委員剛剛所提到的，公共工程拆遷包括都更會產生很多的營建廢棄物，這些廢棄物的確需要一個地方去處理，所以現在環境部跟國土署分別有兩套系統，專門處理營建廢土石，我們現在也有在進行所謂營建廢棄物的回收作業；在業者的部分，我們也有輔導他們進行廢棄物的篩選，某一些土方可以再利用我們會做再利用。這個部分就是從剛剛委員提到廢棄土方的堆置跟土方的回收，我們現在是兩方面同時在進行，我們會一起來努力。"],["黃委員建賓：次長，那夠不夠？以目前的胃納量夠嗎？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，以我的了解，目前是不足，這個部分我們要去增加。"],["黃委員建賓：因為你去年統計產出需要填滿的土方就達到388萬立方公尺，根據估算兩年就滿了，再來，現在營建廢棄物混合物處理跟再利用也出現落差，中央許可52家業者每年可以分類回收再利用的是1,192萬噸，但是實際上進場處理的只有163萬噸，比例不到一成四，現在我們要想其他的東西跑到哪裡去了？因為比例根本就不夠啊，進場跟實際上就差那麼多，這些消失的廢棄物跑去哪裡？就是亂倒嘛！現在土資場的價值好像就只剩下開立假證明在賺錢，其實很多空殼的土資場就是只開證明不收土石，這些東西消失到哪裡去了？它不會憑空消失啊！所以合法運作的土資場接近飽和，這樣就如同次長你講的，真的就不夠啊！有人說明明就不夠，但中央的數字都說夠，都在亂講話，這誰講的？不是本席講的，這是第一線偵辦亂倒案件的檢察官講的，他說供需明顯失衡，內政部要負最大責任，這檢察官說的喔！另外，卸任的前政務委員吳澤成也直指內政部在這部分確實是失職，他之前也要求內政部要盤點合適的土資場的地點，由地方來規劃和新設，現在都快兩年了，請問地點在哪邊？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，這個我回去查明之後再跟委員回報，因為有一些細節在國土署那邊。不過這個部分跟委員回報，我們會努力去處理這個供需差的問題，因為這個問題不是最近這一、兩年才有，這是一個非常長期的問題。"],["黃委員建賓：已經是長期的問題了，對吧？所以本席今天提出這些，是因為救災相對重要，可是國土的問題是已經擺在眼前要解決了。我想沒有合法跟足夠的量能，當然就會讓業者亂倒，不只如此，所有的法規也都亂了套，從土資場開立假證明聯單，供砂石車繞場一圈做假紀錄，各縣市證明聯單的格式也不統一，容易被混騙過關，地主也常常被人頭詐騙，用來倒這些廢棄物。我想種種問題，中央其實明明都清楚，就要趕快來解決，如果中央還沒有訂定一定的土石方的檢測方法，包括採樣的數量、雜質成分跟占比等等，這也困擾我們業界嘛，所以這個部分你看連監察院都公布了，因為看不下去了啊！監察院說營建剩餘土石方的處理方案位階僅在行政規則，缺乏法律授權，導致強制力不足，而且與廢棄物清理法等多重規範範疇重疊，主管機關的權責不清，廢棄物認定標準模糊，造成執法困難。所以對於這個部分，內政部具體的修法什麼時候要做？然後什麼時候可以送過來審？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，我們會後跟委員做說明，因為這個部分有一些細節是跨部會要去處理的，有法律上競合的問題。剛剛也跟委員報告，就是除了中央政府之外，因為對土資場的管理，地方政府其實有它一定的職掌，所以最了解土資場問題的大概是地方政府第一線，所以我們……"],["黃委員建賓：所以內政部更應該下來整合這一塊，對不對？"],["馬次長士元：這個我們會虛心檢討。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝次長。次長，本席最後要提醒的是，修不修法跟預算都沒有關係，這些問題不是今年才開始，運送廢棄物的不法利益龐大，已經躍升為黑幫收入的前三名，已經超越賭場。行政院也把這個視為重大的經濟犯罪，但是缺乏打詐、打酒駕的決心，所以這部分我們要要求內政部必須硬起來，不然清廉、勤政、愛鄉土就只會淪為口號，這部分再請政次跟部裡面來研究，趕快來解決這個問題。"],["馬次長士元：好，謝謝委員指教。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝次長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：請許宇甄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":48,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-4","speakers":["張宏陸","丁學忠","張智倫","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","李柏毅","王美惠","黃建賓","許宇甄","楊瓊瓔","吳琪銘","黃捷","徐欣瑩","高金素梅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「災害防救法第三條及第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委\n員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「災害防救法第三條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具\n「災害防救法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「災害防救法第二\n十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1142901_00001"}}}