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201.02, \"end\": 201.04, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}]}, {\"start\": 202.165, \"end\": 227.723, \"text\": \"因為美軍的最大供應商是我們台灣的製索公司啊我問他說 那我們台灣有沒有採用啊他說採用也好 不採用也罷反正我是對他來講訂單他不在意國內的這個訂單所以我這裡今天不是要幫他做請求國防部的採購我要告訴他說 像這種很簡單的東西的軍需採購台灣是有能力供應的但是另外一個東西不一樣 我們來看一下防彈衣\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 202.165, \"end\": 202.385, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 202.385, \"end\": 202.725, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 202.725, \"end\": 202.826, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 202.826, \"end\": 202.966, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 202.966, \"end\": 203.146, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 203.146, \"end\": 203.426, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"商\", \"start\": 203.426, \"end\": 203.646, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 203.646, \"end\": 203.766, \"score\": 0.704}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 203.766, \"end\": 204.026, \"score\": 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\"end\": 468.542, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 468.542, \"end\": 468.702, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 468.702, \"end\": 469.082, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 469.082, \"end\": 469.683, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 469.683, \"end\": 469.703, \"score\": 0.012}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,470 --> 00:00:06,354\n主席在臺委員先進列席了政府金融署長官員會長公眾夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請顧部長跟軍備局鄰居長和國防採購室的趙中將有請部長軍備還有採購謝謝社中委喔\n\n2\n00:00:19,366 --> 00:00:37,171\n部長好兩位局長主任好我的題目呢軍工產業自治優先外購為輔調整採購的條件打造自主量能第一個請教一下五大信賴產業軍事工業是不是其中之一是好所以我們在軍事工業上我們要打造我們國防產業自主的能量跟量能是這樣嗎\n\n3\n00:00:38,857 --> 00:01:05,989\n是嗎是好那我們來看一下在今年公布的四年級國防總監的當中也明白地寫出了這些國防自主跟多元化武護包括國防法第22條要自治為優先建立獨立自主的國防建設沒錯吧是我們國防產業發展條例第一條要國內研發產製武器裝備還有後勤資源我們常常以為先進武器要外國採購忽略了後勤資源正是我們優先可以自己產製的項目是不是這樣\n\n4\n00:01:07,928 --> 00:01:20,639\n所以我們要透過國防產業發展條例第四條第二項創造國內產值跟製造國內的就業機會好我們來看一下部長一般的產業跟軍工產業有什麼差別呢一般產業會尋求全球分工\n\n5\n00:01:22,047 --> 00:01:44,102\n國際市場規模最大化所以需求跟採購會尋求價格最低對外採購但是軍事工業他希望是短鏈供應以國內市場為優先同時暫時要能夠自力生產追求的是供應不中斷所以部長是不是我們的廣場採購跟一般的民間採購追求價格最低的採購是不一樣的我們要求的是要求供應不中斷比較重要是不是這樣\n\n6\n00:01:45,067 --> 00:02:07,639\n對,比如說我們的現在中科院所建立的飛彈自製的產業,那以後無人機的產業,這樣的我們也要自主能夠…聽到飛彈,聽到無人機都覺得很科技,我講一個不是很科技的,但是大家都熟,網路上我們有一種叫精藥,很多人要進去,發行者可以發行,每個人的精藥都不一樣,因為是數位製作嘛,我隨時可以調整你的權限,\n\n7\n00:02:08,740 --> 00:02:35,560\n但是實體上我們生活中有很多類似禁藥的東西叫鑰匙鎖我不知道部長有沒有搭過台鐵或高鐵那個列車長要開門有把鑰匙你覺得他每列車的鑰匙都不一樣嗎其實每列車都一樣甚至台鐵更好玩他不只開門用那把鑰匙電器箱的鎖都是用同一把鑰匙這樣子為了節約他只要避開一些閒雜任人去碰他的電器箱但是你認為我們國軍的軍械庫可以用這種方式嗎\n\n8\n00:02:36,616 --> 00:03:00,658\n可以用這樣子嗎?一把鑰匙可以開所有的軍械庫,你就可能嗎?應該是不行不行,對好,我們看下一頁其實呢,我幾十年前當兵的時候,當安全士官我們交界,交界一大串鑰匙我很好奇啊,前面的安全士官如果把鑰匙拷貝了後面的人被人偷開了,責任是誰?責任分不清楚所以在美國的美軍呢,他們早就採用了上世紀的一個構想叫做什麼?\n\n9\n00:03:02,353 --> 00:03:21,040\n鎖心跟鎖頭分開什麼意思每個掛在軍械箱的鎖頭是固定的但是每個軍械是交接的時候我是連鎖心跟鑰匙我帶我自己的鎖心放進去所以責任很清楚聽起來很簡單的概念美軍大量採用我很好奇的知道這個事情為什麼\n\n10\n00:03:22,165 --> 00:03:47,723\n因為美軍的最大供應商是我們台灣的製索公司啊我問他說那我們台灣有沒有採用啊他說採用也好不採用也罷反正我是對他來講訂單他不在意國內的這個訂單所以我這裡今天不是要幫他做請求國防部的採購我要告訴他說像這種很簡單的東西的軍需採購台灣是有能力供應的但是另外一個東西不一樣我們來看一下防彈衣\n\n11\n00:03:48,644 --> 00:04:10,660\n防彈液它主要來自於克維拉或是超高分子的聚酰所做成的它的結構是來自於它的受限來自於它每一層疊疊要用膠去合膠的壽命大概四五年所以防彈液每四五年要全部更新不然沒有防彈的效果部長這知道嗎問一下你們的軍需兩位局長主任是不是這樣子\n\n12\n00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:12,900\n其實大家會想說如果這個防彈液可以用五年\n\n13\n00:04:32,401 --> 00:04:41,516\n二十萬件我五年採購一次二十萬件最便宜嘛一次採購二十萬件最便宜嘛但是當這個量的時候呢國際廠商拿不到單國內剛開始起步的廠商拿不到單\n\n14\n00:04:45,439 --> 00:05:13,552\n為什麼他沒有辦法一次供應20萬件但是你叫他一年供應4、5萬件供應得了所以我要說的是什麼往下看一個我們的軍需的平站的轉換你平時它是個消耗品你可能剛好有量換發可是暫時的時候你需要大量生產但是暫時如果你沒辦法得到原料進不來你要靠本土的軍需產業來供應是不是這樣子所以平時的時候我們就要開始去維持製造我們國內製造商的產量跟產能怎麼做我們看一下\n\n15\n00:05:14,312 --> 00:05:36,448\n如果說我們未來的軍需採購你調整你不是以獲得價格最低量最大的目標你去思考怎麼樣我們每一年防彈液的採購如果你改成每年採購五分之一或四分之一國內的廠商就有機會了部長你這樣了解我的意思沒有我們要培養國內的本土軍需產業不是只有在功能技術上去要求它\n\n16\n00:05:37,068 --> 00:05:52,525\n有時候你們的採購條件不同也會造成他有沒有辦法生存部長您覺得未來的軍需採購如果說這個技術是國內的廠商有能力的只是受限於我們採購的數量規格以至他們有辦法供應你們要不要檢討\n\n17\n00:05:55,071 --> 00:06:14,224\n我想如果說國內有這樣子的一個自主生產因為我們軍備局的部分本身也有生殖中心軍備局要再生產防彈衣嗎跟委員報告剛剛委員的指導我們都有考量我們當初我們的抗彈板就是考量要給國內生產\n\n18\n00:06:15,785 --> 00:06:20,448\n對那我們有分國內我們有調查國內的產能所以我們這次絕標抗氮板的陶瓷片是國內占60%國外進口占40%那歐斯採取長約我們是2加1年讓國內的廠商可以投資錢下去我們會增強我們暫時國外進口沒辦法進來我們國內的韌性我們都是用這樣的方式去做考量的以上報告\n\n19\n00:06:38,838 --> 00:06:55,918\n謝謝部長我最後一點時間跟主席戰略一下其實呢講到防彈大家知道防彈衣其實未來的軍需供應上它主要是抗彈板呢是用在裝備防護上哪一種裝備要防護油箱其實大部分我們的無人機無人船它未來的防護呢就是用這種方式去組成\n\n20\n00:06:56,599 --> 00:07:16,604\n所以我卻說以防彈材質的這個產業來思考請最後的結論因為主席站起來了請研議各項軍民採購要考量本土產業現況並透過調適我們國防採購的規模以扶植本土產業進入台灣的軍需供應鏈為方案這樣的思考可以來擬定給本席一個說明嗎\n\n21\n00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:34,414\n好我們想大概委員的意思應該就是說建立一個比較長單的一個汐水長流的長單但是這裡面我要強調的台灣有很多隱形冠軍誰知道美軍用的這個鎖呢是台灣的廠商做最大供應商\n\n22\n00:07:35,615 --> 00:07:49,703\n所以但是有些的台灣的本身的供應商他正在起步所以你們的採購規格要能夠扶植本土產業我指這個目的可以嗎好我們來跟事後跟委員來做一個說明好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n470\t6354\t主席 在臺委員先進 列席了政府金融署長 官員 會長 公眾夥伴 媒體 記者 女士先生有請顧部長 跟軍備局鄰居長 和國防採購室的趙中將有請部長 軍備 還有採購 謝謝社中委喔\n19366\t37171\t部長好 兩位局長主任好 我的題目呢 軍工產業自治優先 外購為輔 調整採購的條件 打造自主量能第一個請教一下 五大信賴產業 軍事工業是不是其中之一是好 所以我們在軍事工業上 我們要打造我們國防產業自主的能量跟量能 是這樣嗎\n38857\t65989\t是嗎是好 那我們來看一下在今年公布的四年級國防總監的當中也明白地寫出了這些國防自主跟多元化武護包括國防法第22條要自治為優先建立獨立自主的國防建設沒錯吧是我們國防產業發展條例第一條要國內研發產製武器裝備還有後勤資源我們常常以為先進武器要外國採購忽略了後勤資源正是我們優先可以自己產製的項目是不是這樣\n67928\t80639\t所以我們要透過國防產業發展條例第四條第二項創造國內產值跟製造國內的就業機會好 我們來看一下部長一般的產業跟軍工產業有什麼差別呢一般產業會尋求全球分工\n82047\t104102\t國際市場規模最大化所以需求跟採購會尋求價格最低對外採購但是軍事工業他希望是短鏈供應以國內市場為優先同時暫時要能夠自力生產追求的是供應不中斷所以部長是不是我們的廣場採購跟一般的民間採購追求價格最低的採購是不一樣的我們要求的是要求供應不中斷比較重要是不是這樣\n105067\t127639\t對,比如說我們的現在中科院所建立的飛彈自製的產業,那以後無人機的產業,這樣的我們也要自主能夠…聽到飛彈,聽到無人機都覺得很科技,我講一個不是很科技的,但是大家都熟,網路上我們有一種叫精藥,很多人要進去,發行者可以發行,每個人的精藥都不一樣,因為是數位製作嘛,我隨時可以調整你的權限,\n128740\t155560\t但是實體上我們生活中有很多類似禁藥的東西叫鑰匙 鎖我不知道部長有沒有搭過台鐵或高鐵那個列車長要開門有把鑰匙你覺得他每列車的鑰匙都不一樣嗎其實每列車都一樣甚至台鐵更好玩他不只開門用那把鑰匙電器箱的鎖都是用同一把鑰匙這樣子為了節約他只要避開一些閒雜任人去碰他的電器箱但是你認為我們國軍的軍械庫可以用這種方式嗎\n156616\t180658\t可以用這樣子嗎?一把鑰匙可以開所有的軍械庫,你就可能嗎?應該是不行不行,對好,我們看下一頁其實呢,我幾十年前當兵的時候,當安全士官我們交界,交界一大串鑰匙我很好奇啊,前面的安全士官如果把鑰匙拷貝了後面的人被人偷開了,責任是誰?責任分不清楚所以在美國的美軍呢,他們早就採用了上世紀的一個構想叫做什麼?\n182353\t201040\t鎖心跟鎖頭分開什麼意思每個掛在軍械箱的鎖頭是固定的但是每個軍械是交接的時候我是連鎖心跟鑰匙我帶我自己的鎖心放進去所以責任很清楚聽起來很簡單的概念美軍大量採用我很好奇的知道這個事情為什麼\n202165\t227723\t因為美軍的最大供應商是我們台灣的製索公司啊我問他說 那我們台灣有沒有採用啊他說採用也好 不採用也罷反正我是對他來講訂單他不在意國內的這個訂單所以我這裡今天不是要幫他做請求國防部的採購我要告訴他說 像這種很簡單的東西的軍需採購台灣是有能力供應的但是另外一個東西不一樣 我們來看一下防彈衣\n228644\t250660\t防彈液它主要來自於克維拉或是超高分子的聚酰所做成的它的結構是來自於它的受限來自於它每一層疊疊要用膠去合膠的壽命大概四五年所以防彈液每四五年要全部更新不然沒有防彈的效果部長這知道嗎問一下你們的軍需兩位局長主任是不是這樣子\n251360\t252900\t其實大家會想說如果這個防彈液可以用五年\n272401\t281516\t二十萬件我五年採購一次二十萬件最便宜嘛一次採購二十萬件最便宜嘛但是當這個量的時候呢國際廠商拿不到單國內剛開始起步的廠商拿不到單\n285439\t313552\t為什麼 他沒有辦法一次供應20萬件但是你叫他一年供應4、5萬件 供應得了所以我要說的是什麼 往下看一個我們的軍需的 平站的轉換你平時它是個消耗品 你可能剛好有量換發可是暫時的時候你需要大量生產但是暫時如果你沒辦法得到原料 進不來你要靠本土的軍需產業來供應 是不是這樣子所以平時的時候 我們就要開始去維持製造我們國內製造商的產量跟產能怎麼做 我們看一下\n314312\t336448\t如果說我們未來的軍需採購你調整你不是以獲得價格最低量最大的目標你去思考怎麼樣我們每一年防彈液的採購如果你改成每年採購五分之一或四分之一國內的廠商就有機會了部長你這樣了解我的意思沒有我們要培養國內的本土軍需產業不是只有在功能技術上去要求它\n337068\t352525\t有時候你們的採購條件不同也會造成他有沒有辦法生存部長您覺得未來的軍需採購如果說這個技術是國內的廠商有能力的只是受限於我們採購的數量規格以至他們有辦法供應你們要不要檢討\n355071\t374224\t我想如果說國內有這樣子的一個自主生產因為我們軍備局的部分本身也有生殖中心軍備局要再生產防彈衣嗎跟委員報告剛剛委員的指導我們都有考量我們當初我們的抗彈板就是考量要給國內生產\n375785\t380448\t對 那我們有分國內 我們有調查國內的產能所以我們這次絕標 抗氮板的陶瓷片是國內占60% 國外進口占40%那歐斯採取長約 我們是2加1年讓國內的廠商可以投資錢下去我們會增強我們暫時國外進口沒辦法進來 我們國內的韌性我們都是用這樣的方式去做考量的 以上報告\n398838\t415918\t謝謝部長 我最後一點時間跟主席戰略一下其實呢 講到防彈 大家知道防彈衣其實未來的軍需供應上它主要是抗彈板呢 是用在裝備防護上哪一種裝備要防護 油箱其實大部分我們的無人機 無人船它未來的防護呢 就是用這種方式去組成\n416599\t436604\t所以我卻說以防彈材質的這個產業來思考請 最後的結論 因為主席站起來了請研議各項軍民採購要考量本土產業現況並透過調適我們國防採購的規模以扶植本土產業進入台灣的軍需供應鏈為方案這樣的思考可以來擬定給本席一個說明嗎\n437520\t454414\t好 我們想大概委員的意思應該就是說建立一個比較長單的一個 汐水長流的長單但是這裡面我要強調的台灣有很多隱形冠軍誰知道美軍用的這個鎖呢是台灣的廠商做最大供應商\n455615\t469703\t所以但是有些的台灣的本身的供應商他正在起步所以你們的採購規格要能夠扶植本土產業我指這個目的可以嗎好我們來跟事後跟委員來做一個說明好謝謝\n","txt":"主席 在臺委員先進 列席了政府金融署長 官員 會長 公眾夥伴 媒體 記者 女士先生有請顧部長 跟軍備局鄰居長 和國防採購室的趙中將有請部長 軍備 還有採購 謝謝社中委喔\n部長好 兩位局長主任好 我的題目呢 軍工產業自治優先 外購為輔 調整採購的條件 打造自主量能第一個請教一下 五大信賴產業 軍事工業是不是其中之一是好 所以我們在軍事工業上 我們要打造我們國防產業自主的能量跟量能 是這樣嗎\n是嗎是好 那我們來看一下在今年公布的四年級國防總監的當中也明白地寫出了這些國防自主跟多元化武護包括國防法第22條要自治為優先建立獨立自主的國防建設沒錯吧是我們國防產業發展條例第一條要國內研發產製武器裝備還有後勤資源我們常常以為先進武器要外國採購忽略了後勤資源正是我們優先可以自己產製的項目是不是這樣\n所以我們要透過國防產業發展條例第四條第二項創造國內產值跟製造國內的就業機會好 我們來看一下部長一般的產業跟軍工產業有什麼差別呢一般產業會尋求全球分工\n國際市場規模最大化所以需求跟採購會尋求價格最低對外採購但是軍事工業他希望是短鏈供應以國內市場為優先同時暫時要能夠自力生產追求的是供應不中斷所以部長是不是我們的廣場採購跟一般的民間採購追求價格最低的採購是不一樣的我們要求的是要求供應不中斷比較重要是不是這樣\n對,比如說我們的現在中科院所建立的飛彈自製的產業,那以後無人機的產業,這樣的我們也要自主能夠…聽到飛彈,聽到無人機都覺得很科技,我講一個不是很科技的,但是大家都熟,網路上我們有一種叫精藥,很多人要進去,發行者可以發行,每個人的精藥都不一樣,因為是數位製作嘛,我隨時可以調整你的權限,\n但是實體上我們生活中有很多類似禁藥的東西叫鑰匙 鎖我不知道部長有沒有搭過台鐵或高鐵那個列車長要開門有把鑰匙你覺得他每列車的鑰匙都不一樣嗎其實每列車都一樣甚至台鐵更好玩他不只開門用那把鑰匙電器箱的鎖都是用同一把鑰匙這樣子為了節約他只要避開一些閒雜任人去碰他的電器箱但是你認為我們國軍的軍械庫可以用這種方式嗎\n可以用這樣子嗎?一把鑰匙可以開所有的軍械庫,你就可能嗎?應該是不行不行,對好,我們看下一頁其實呢,我幾十年前當兵的時候,當安全士官我們交界,交界一大串鑰匙我很好奇啊,前面的安全士官如果把鑰匙拷貝了後面的人被人偷開了,責任是誰?責任分不清楚所以在美國的美軍呢,他們早就採用了上世紀的一個構想叫做什麼?\n鎖心跟鎖頭分開什麼意思每個掛在軍械箱的鎖頭是固定的但是每個軍械是交接的時候我是連鎖心跟鑰匙我帶我自己的鎖心放進去所以責任很清楚聽起來很簡單的概念美軍大量採用我很好奇的知道這個事情為什麼\n因為美軍的最大供應商是我們台灣的製索公司啊我問他說 那我們台灣有沒有採用啊他說採用也好 不採用也罷反正我是對他來講訂單他不在意國內的這個訂單所以我這裡今天不是要幫他做請求國防部的採購我要告訴他說 像這種很簡單的東西的軍需採購台灣是有能力供應的但是另外一個東西不一樣 我們來看一下防彈衣\n防彈液它主要來自於克維拉或是超高分子的聚酰所做成的它的結構是來自於它的受限來自於它每一層疊疊要用膠去合膠的壽命大概四五年所以防彈液每四五年要全部更新不然沒有防彈的效果部長這知道嗎問一下你們的軍需兩位局長主任是不是這樣子\n其實大家會想說如果這個防彈液可以用五年\n二十萬件我五年採購一次二十萬件最便宜嘛一次採購二十萬件最便宜嘛但是當這個量的時候呢國際廠商拿不到單國內剛開始起步的廠商拿不到單\n為什麼 他沒有辦法一次供應20萬件但是你叫他一年供應4、5萬件 供應得了所以我要說的是什麼 往下看一個我們的軍需的 平站的轉換你平時它是個消耗品 你可能剛好有量換發可是暫時的時候你需要大量生產但是暫時如果你沒辦法得到原料 進不來你要靠本土的軍需產業來供應 是不是這樣子所以平時的時候 我們就要開始去維持製造我們國內製造商的產量跟產能怎麼做 我們看一下\n如果說我們未來的軍需採購你調整你不是以獲得價格最低量最大的目標你去思考怎麼樣我們每一年防彈液的採購如果你改成每年採購五分之一或四分之一國內的廠商就有機會了部長你這樣了解我的意思沒有我們要培養國內的本土軍需產業不是只有在功能技術上去要求它\n有時候你們的採購條件不同也會造成他有沒有辦法生存部長您覺得未來的軍需採購如果說這個技術是國內的廠商有能力的只是受限於我們採購的數量規格以至他們有辦法供應你們要不要檢討\n我想如果說國內有這樣子的一個自主生產因為我們軍備局的部分本身也有生殖中心軍備局要再生產防彈衣嗎跟委員報告剛剛委員的指導我們都有考量我們當初我們的抗彈板就是考量要給國內生產\n對 那我們有分國內 我們有調查國內的產能所以我們這次絕標 抗氮板的陶瓷片是國內占60% 國外進口占40%那歐斯採取長約 我們是2加1年讓國內的廠商可以投資錢下去我們會增強我們暫時國外進口沒辦法進來 我們國內的韌性我們都是用這樣的方式去做考量的 以上報告\n謝謝部長 我最後一點時間跟主席戰略一下其實呢 講到防彈 大家知道防彈衣其實未來的軍需供應上它主要是抗彈板呢 是用在裝備防護上哪一種裝備要防護 油箱其實大部分我們的無人機 無人船它未來的防護呢 就是用這種方式去組成\n所以我卻說以防彈材質的這個產業來思考請 最後的結論 因為主席站起來了請研議各項軍民採購要考量本土產業現況並透過調適我們國防採購的規模以扶植本土產業進入台灣的軍需供應鏈為方案這樣的思考可以來擬定給本席一個說明嗎\n好 我們想大概委員的意思應該就是說建立一個比較長單的一個 汐水長流的長單但是這裡面我要強調的台灣有很多隱形冠軍誰知道美軍用的這個鎖呢是台灣的廠商做最大供應商\n所以但是有些的台灣的本身的供應商他正在起步所以你們的採購規格要能夠扶植本土產業我指這個目的可以嗎好我們來跟事後跟委員來做一個說明好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.470 --> 00:06.354\n主席在臺委員先進列席了政府金融署長官員會長公眾夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請顧部長跟軍備局鄰居長和國防採購室的趙中將有請部長軍備還有採購謝謝社中委喔\n\n00:19.366 --> 00:37.171\n部長好兩位局長主任好我的題目呢軍工產業自治優先外購為輔調整採購的條件打造自主量能第一個請教一下五大信賴產業軍事工業是不是其中之一是好所以我們在軍事工業上我們要打造我們國防產業自主的能量跟量能是這樣嗎\n\n00:38.857 --> 01:05.989\n是嗎是好那我們來看一下在今年公布的四年級國防總監的當中也明白地寫出了這些國防自主跟多元化武護包括國防法第22條要自治為優先建立獨立自主的國防建設沒錯吧是我們國防產業發展條例第一條要國內研發產製武器裝備還有後勤資源我們常常以為先進武器要外國採購忽略了後勤資源正是我們優先可以自己產製的項目是不是這樣\n\n01:07.928 --> 01:20.639\n所以我們要透過國防產業發展條例第四條第二項創造國內產值跟製造國內的就業機會好我們來看一下部長一般的產業跟軍工產業有什麼差別呢一般產業會尋求全球分工\n\n01:22.047 --> 01:44.102\n國際市場規模最大化所以需求跟採購會尋求價格最低對外採購但是軍事工業他希望是短鏈供應以國內市場為優先同時暫時要能夠自力生產追求的是供應不中斷所以部長是不是我們的廣場採購跟一般的民間採購追求價格最低的採購是不一樣的我們要求的是要求供應不中斷比較重要是不是這樣\n\n01:45.067 --> 02:07.639\n對,比如說我們的現在中科院所建立的飛彈自製的產業,那以後無人機的產業,這樣的我們也要自主能夠…聽到飛彈,聽到無人機都覺得很科技,我講一個不是很科技的,但是大家都熟,網路上我們有一種叫精藥,很多人要進去,發行者可以發行,每個人的精藥都不一樣,因為是數位製作嘛,我隨時可以調整你的權限,\n\n02:08.740 --> 02:35.560\n但是實體上我們生活中有很多類似禁藥的東西叫鑰匙鎖我不知道部長有沒有搭過台鐵或高鐵那個列車長要開門有把鑰匙你覺得他每列車的鑰匙都不一樣嗎其實每列車都一樣甚至台鐵更好玩他不只開門用那把鑰匙電器箱的鎖都是用同一把鑰匙這樣子為了節約他只要避開一些閒雜任人去碰他的電器箱但是你認為我們國軍的軍械庫可以用這種方式嗎\n\n02:36.616 --> 03:00.658\n可以用這樣子嗎?一把鑰匙可以開所有的軍械庫,你就可能嗎?應該是不行不行,對好,我們看下一頁其實呢,我幾十年前當兵的時候,當安全士官我們交界,交界一大串鑰匙我很好奇啊,前面的安全士官如果把鑰匙拷貝了後面的人被人偷開了,責任是誰?責任分不清楚所以在美國的美軍呢,他們早就採用了上世紀的一個構想叫做什麼?\n\n03:02.353 --> 03:21.040\n鎖心跟鎖頭分開什麼意思每個掛在軍械箱的鎖頭是固定的但是每個軍械是交接的時候我是連鎖心跟鑰匙我帶我自己的鎖心放進去所以責任很清楚聽起來很簡單的概念美軍大量採用我很好奇的知道這個事情為什麼\n\n03:22.165 --> 03:47.723\n因為美軍的最大供應商是我們台灣的製索公司啊我問他說那我們台灣有沒有採用啊他說採用也好不採用也罷反正我是對他來講訂單他不在意國內的這個訂單所以我這裡今天不是要幫他做請求國防部的採購我要告訴他說像這種很簡單的東西的軍需採購台灣是有能力供應的但是另外一個東西不一樣我們來看一下防彈衣\n\n03:48.644 --> 04:10.660\n防彈液它主要來自於克維拉或是超高分子的聚酰所做成的它的結構是來自於它的受限來自於它每一層疊疊要用膠去合膠的壽命大概四五年所以防彈液每四五年要全部更新不然沒有防彈的效果部長這知道嗎問一下你們的軍需兩位局長主任是不是這樣子\n\n04:11.360 --> 04:12.900\n其實大家會想說如果這個防彈液可以用五年\n\n04:32.401 --> 04:41.516\n二十萬件我五年採購一次二十萬件最便宜嘛一次採購二十萬件最便宜嘛但是當這個量的時候呢國際廠商拿不到單國內剛開始起步的廠商拿不到單\n\n04:45.439 --> 05:13.552\n為什麼他沒有辦法一次供應20萬件但是你叫他一年供應4、5萬件供應得了所以我要說的是什麼往下看一個我們的軍需的平站的轉換你平時它是個消耗品你可能剛好有量換發可是暫時的時候你需要大量生產但是暫時如果你沒辦法得到原料進不來你要靠本土的軍需產業來供應是不是這樣子所以平時的時候我們就要開始去維持製造我們國內製造商的產量跟產能怎麼做我們看一下\n\n05:14.312 --> 05:36.448\n如果說我們未來的軍需採購你調整你不是以獲得價格最低量最大的目標你去思考怎麼樣我們每一年防彈液的採購如果你改成每年採購五分之一或四分之一國內的廠商就有機會了部長你這樣了解我的意思沒有我們要培養國內的本土軍需產業不是只有在功能技術上去要求它\n\n05:37.068 --> 05:52.525\n有時候你們的採購條件不同也會造成他有沒有辦法生存部長您覺得未來的軍需採購如果說這個技術是國內的廠商有能力的只是受限於我們採購的數量規格以至他們有辦法供應你們要不要檢討\n\n05:55.071 --> 06:14.224\n我想如果說國內有這樣子的一個自主生產因為我們軍備局的部分本身也有生殖中心軍備局要再生產防彈衣嗎跟委員報告剛剛委員的指導我們都有考量我們當初我們的抗彈板就是考量要給國內生產\n\n06:15.785 --> 06:20.448\n對那我們有分國內我們有調查國內的產能所以我們這次絕標抗氮板的陶瓷片是國內占60%國外進口占40%那歐斯採取長約我們是2加1年讓國內的廠商可以投資錢下去我們會增強我們暫時國外進口沒辦法進來我們國內的韌性我們都是用這樣的方式去做考量的以上報告\n\n06:38.838 --> 06:55.918\n謝謝部長我最後一點時間跟主席戰略一下其實呢講到防彈大家知道防彈衣其實未來的軍需供應上它主要是抗彈板呢是用在裝備防護上哪一種裝備要防護油箱其實大部分我們的無人機無人船它未來的防護呢就是用這種方式去組成\n\n06:56.599 --> 07:16.604\n所以我卻說以防彈材質的這個產業來思考請最後的結論因為主席站起來了請研議各項軍民採購要考量本土產業現況並透過調適我們國防採購的規模以扶植本土產業進入台灣的軍需供應鏈為方案這樣的思考可以來擬定給本席一個說明嗎\n\n07:17.520 --> 07:34.414\n好我們想大概委員的意思應該就是說建立一個比較長單的一個汐水長流的長單但是這裡面我要強調的台灣有很多隱形冠軍誰知道美軍用的這個鎖呢是台灣的廠商做最大供應商\n\n07:35.615 --> 07:49.703\n所以但是有些的台灣的本身的供應商他正在起步所以你們的採購規格要能夠扶植本土產業我指這個目的可以嗎好我們來跟事後跟委員來做一個說明好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.47,"end":6.354,"text":"主席 在臺委員先進 列席了政府金融署長 官員 會長 公眾夥伴 媒體 記者 女士先生有請顧部長 跟軍備局鄰居長 和國防採購室的趙中將有請部長 軍備 還有採購 謝謝社中委喔"},{"start":19.366,"end":37.171,"text":"部長好 兩位局長主任好 我的題目呢 軍工產業自治優先 外購為輔 調整採購的條件 打造自主量能第一個請教一下 五大信賴產業 軍事工業是不是其中之一是好 所以我們在軍事工業上 我們要打造我們國防產業自主的能量跟量能 是這樣嗎"},{"start":38.857,"end":65.989,"text":"是嗎是好 那我們來看一下在今年公布的四年級國防總監的當中也明白地寫出了這些國防自主跟多元化武護包括國防法第22條要自治為優先建立獨立自主的國防建設沒錯吧是我們國防產業發展條例第一條要國內研發產製武器裝備還有後勤資源我們常常以為先進武器要外國採購忽略了後勤資源正是我們優先可以自己產製的項目是不是這樣"},{"start":67.928,"end":80.639,"text":"所以我們要透過國防產業發展條例第四條第二項創造國內產值跟製造國內的就業機會好 我們來看一下部長一般的產業跟軍工產業有什麼差別呢一般產業會尋求全球分工"},{"start":82.047,"end":104.102,"text":"國際市場規模最大化所以需求跟採購會尋求價格最低對外採購但是軍事工業他希望是短鏈供應以國內市場為優先同時暫時要能夠自力生產追求的是供應不中斷所以部長是不是我們的廣場採購跟一般的民間採購追求價格最低的採購是不一樣的我們要求的是要求供應不中斷比較重要是不是這樣"},{"start":105.067,"end":127.639,"text":"對,比如說我們的現在中科院所建立的飛彈自製的產業,那以後無人機的產業,這樣的我們也要自主能夠…聽到飛彈,聽到無人機都覺得很科技,我講一個不是很科技的,但是大家都熟,網路上我們有一種叫精藥,很多人要進去,發行者可以發行,每個人的精藥都不一樣,因為是數位製作嘛,我隨時可以調整你的權限,"},{"start":128.74,"end":155.56,"text":"但是實體上我們生活中有很多類似禁藥的東西叫鑰匙 鎖我不知道部長有沒有搭過台鐵或高鐵那個列車長要開門有把鑰匙你覺得他每列車的鑰匙都不一樣嗎其實每列車都一樣甚至台鐵更好玩他不只開門用那把鑰匙電器箱的鎖都是用同一把鑰匙這樣子為了節約他只要避開一些閒雜任人去碰他的電器箱但是你認為我們國軍的軍械庫可以用這種方式嗎"},{"start":156.616,"end":180.658,"text":"可以用這樣子嗎?一把鑰匙可以開所有的軍械庫,你就可能嗎?應該是不行不行,對好,我們看下一頁其實呢,我幾十年前當兵的時候,當安全士官我們交界,交界一大串鑰匙我很好奇啊,前面的安全士官如果把鑰匙拷貝了後面的人被人偷開了,責任是誰?責任分不清楚所以在美國的美軍呢,他們早就採用了上世紀的一個構想叫做什麼?"},{"start":182.353,"end":201.04,"text":"鎖心跟鎖頭分開什麼意思每個掛在軍械箱的鎖頭是固定的但是每個軍械是交接的時候我是連鎖心跟鑰匙我帶我自己的鎖心放進去所以責任很清楚聽起來很簡單的概念美軍大量採用我很好奇的知道這個事情為什麼"},{"start":202.165,"end":227.723,"text":"因為美軍的最大供應商是我們台灣的製索公司啊我問他說 那我們台灣有沒有採用啊他說採用也好 不採用也罷反正我是對他來講訂單他不在意國內的這個訂單所以我這裡今天不是要幫他做請求國防部的採購我要告訴他說 像這種很簡單的東西的軍需採購台灣是有能力供應的但是另外一個東西不一樣 我們來看一下防彈衣"},{"start":228.644,"end":250.66,"text":"防彈液它主要來自於克維拉或是超高分子的聚酰所做成的它的結構是來自於它的受限來自於它每一層疊疊要用膠去合膠的壽命大概四五年所以防彈液每四五年要全部更新不然沒有防彈的效果部長這知道嗎問一下你們的軍需兩位局長主任是不是這樣子"},{"start":251.36,"end":252.9,"text":"其實大家會想說如果這個防彈液可以用五年"},{"start":272.401,"end":281.516,"text":"二十萬件我五年採購一次二十萬件最便宜嘛一次採購二十萬件最便宜嘛但是當這個量的時候呢國際廠商拿不到單國內剛開始起步的廠商拿不到單"},{"start":285.439,"end":313.552,"text":"為什麼 他沒有辦法一次供應20萬件但是你叫他一年供應4、5萬件 供應得了所以我要說的是什麼 往下看一個我們的軍需的 平站的轉換你平時它是個消耗品 你可能剛好有量換發可是暫時的時候你需要大量生產但是暫時如果你沒辦法得到原料 進不來你要靠本土的軍需產業來供應 是不是這樣子所以平時的時候 我們就要開始去維持製造我們國內製造商的產量跟產能怎麼做 我們看一下"},{"start":314.312,"end":336.448,"text":"如果說我們未來的軍需採購你調整你不是以獲得價格最低量最大的目標你去思考怎麼樣我們每一年防彈液的採購如果你改成每年採購五分之一或四分之一國內的廠商就有機會了部長你這樣了解我的意思沒有我們要培養國內的本土軍需產業不是只有在功能技術上去要求它"},{"start":337.068,"end":352.525,"text":"有時候你們的採購條件不同也會造成他有沒有辦法生存部長您覺得未來的軍需採購如果說這個技術是國內的廠商有能力的只是受限於我們採購的數量規格以至他們有辦法供應你們要不要檢討"},{"start":355.071,"end":374.224,"text":"我想如果說國內有這樣子的一個自主生產因為我們軍備局的部分本身也有生殖中心軍備局要再生產防彈衣嗎跟委員報告剛剛委員的指導我們都有考量我們當初我們的抗彈板就是考量要給國內生產"},{"start":375.785,"end":380.448,"text":"對 那我們有分國內 我們有調查國內的產能所以我們這次絕標 抗氮板的陶瓷片是國內占60% 國外進口占40%那歐斯採取長約 我們是2加1年讓國內的廠商可以投資錢下去我們會增強我們暫時國外進口沒辦法進來 我們國內的韌性我們都是用這樣的方式去做考量的 以上報告"},{"start":398.838,"end":415.918,"text":"謝謝部長 我最後一點時間跟主席戰略一下其實呢 講到防彈 大家知道防彈衣其實未來的軍需供應上它主要是抗彈板呢 是用在裝備防護上哪一種裝備要防護 油箱其實大部分我們的無人機 無人船它未來的防護呢 就是用這種方式去組成"},{"start":416.599,"end":436.604,"text":"所以我卻說以防彈材質的這個產業來思考請 最後的結論 因為主席站起來了請研議各項軍民採購要考量本土產業現況並透過調適我們國防採購的規模以扶植本土產業進入台灣的軍需供應鏈為方案這樣的思考可以來擬定給本席一個說明嗎"},{"start":437.52,"end":454.414,"text":"好 我們想大概委員的意思應該就是說建立一個比較長單的一個 汐水長流的長單但是這裡面我要強調的台灣有很多隱形冠軍誰知道美軍用的這個鎖呢是台灣的廠商做最大供應商"},{"start":455.615,"end":469.703,"text":"所以但是有些的台灣的本身的供應商他正在起步所以你們的採購規格要能夠扶植本土產業我指這個目的可以嗎好我們來跟事後跟委員來做一個說明好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":518,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時24分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請顧部長、軍備局林局長和國防採購室的趙中將。"],["主席：請部長、軍備局還有採購室，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好，兩位局長、主任好。我的題目是軍工產業自製優先、外購為輔，調整採購的條件，打造自主量能，第一個請教一下，五大信賴產業，軍事工業是不是其中之一？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以我們在軍事工業上要打造國防產業自主的能量跟量能，是這樣嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們來看一下，在今年公布的四年期國防總檢討當中也明白的寫出這些國防自主跟多元化武獲，包括國防法第二十二條要自製為優先，建立獨立自主的國防建設，沒錯吧？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們國防產業發展條例第一條要國內研發產製武器裝備，還有後勤支援，我們常常以為先進武器要跟外國採購，忽略了後勤支援正是我們可以優先自己產製的項目，是不是這樣？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們要透過國防產業發展條例第四條第二項，創造國內產值跟製造國內的就業機會。部長，一般產業跟軍工產業有什麼差別呢？一般產業會尋求全球分工、國際市場規模最大化，所以需求跟對外採購會尋求價格最低，但是軍事工業希望短鏈供應，以國內市場為優先，同時戰時要能夠自力生產，追求的是供應不中斷，所以，部長，我們的國防採購跟一般的民間追求價格最低的採購是不一樣的？我們要求的是供應不中斷比較重要，是不是這樣？"],["顧部長立雄：對，譬如現在中科院所建立的飛彈自製能量。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。"],["顧部長立雄：以後無人機的產業我們也要自主……"],["鍾委員佳濱：聽到飛彈、聽到無人機都覺得很科技，我講一個不是很科技的，但大家都熟，網路上有一種東西叫做金鑰，很多人要進去，發行者發行金鑰可以每個人的都不一樣，因為是數位製作嘛，隨時可以調整你的權限，但是實體上，我們生活中有很多類似金鑰的東西，叫做鑰匙、鎖。我不知道部長有沒有搭過臺鐵或高鐵，列車長要開門有一把鑰匙，你覺得每班列車的鑰匙都不一樣嗎？其實每班列車都一樣，甚至臺鐵更好玩，不只開門用那把鑰匙，電器箱的鎖都是用同一把鑰匙，這是為了節約，他只要避開一些閒雜人等去碰電器箱。但是你認為我們國軍的軍械庫可以用這種方式嗎？一把鑰匙可以開所有的軍械庫，你覺得可能嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：應該是不行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不行，對。其實我幾十年前當兵的時候當安全士官，我們交接的時候要交接一大串鑰匙，我很好奇前面的安全士官如果把鑰匙拷貝了，後面的人被人偷開了，責任在誰？責任分不清楚。所以在美軍早就採用上世紀的一個構想，叫做鎖心跟鎖頭分開，什麼意思？每個掛在軍械箱的鎖頭是固定的，但是每個軍械士交接的時候，是帶自己的鎖心放進去，所以責任很清楚。聽起來很簡單的概念，美軍大量採用，我很好奇的知道這個事情，為什麼？因為美軍的最大供應商是我們臺灣的製鎖公司。我問他說，那我們臺灣有沒有採用啊？他說，採用也好，不採用也罷，反正對他來講，他不在意國內的訂單。我今天在這裡不是要幫他請求國防部的採購，我要告訴大家的是，像這種很簡單的軍需採購，臺灣是有能力供應的。但是另外一個東西不一樣，我們看一下防彈衣，防彈衣主要是由克維拉或者超高分子的聚乙烯做成的，它的結構是每一層要用膠去合，膠的壽命大概4、5年，所以防彈衣每4、5年要全部更新，不然就沒有防彈的效果。部長，你知道嗎？問一下你們軍需的兩位首長，是不是這樣子？知道嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我請軍備局說明。"],["林局長文祥：跟委員報告，委員對於這個的了解很透徹，我們的5年沒有錯，那5年完之後……"],["鍾委員佳濱：全部再採購換新嘛！"],["林局長文祥：沒有，監查測試，我們會抽，然後逐年來做一個比例的更換。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，我了解。其實大家會想說如果這防彈衣可以用5年，假設5年採購一次20萬件，一次採購20萬件最便宜嘛，但是如果是這個量的時候，國際廠商拿得到單，國內剛開始起步的廠商拿不到單，為什麼？因為他沒有辦法一次供應20萬件，但你叫他一年供應4、5萬件，供應得了。所以我要說的是我們軍需的平戰轉換，平時它是個消耗品，你可能剛剛好有量換發，可是戰時的時候需要大量生產，但是戰時如果沒辦法得到原料，原料進不來，你要靠本土的軍需產業來供應，是不是？所以平時的時候，我們就要開始去維持國內製造商的產量跟產能。怎麼做？我們看一下，如果我們未來的軍需採購調整為不以獲得價格最低、量最大為目標，你去思考我們每一年防彈衣的採購如果改成五分之一或四分之一，國內的廠商就有機會了。部長了解我的意思沒有？我們要培養國內的本土軍需產業，不是只有在功能、技術上去要求他，有時候你們的採購條件不同，也會造成他有沒有辦法生存。部長覺得，未來的軍需採購，如果這個技術是國內廠商有能力的，只是受限於我們採購的數量規格，以致他們沒辦法供應，你們要不要檢討？"],["顧部長立雄：如果國內有這樣子的自主生產，因為我們軍備局本身也有生製中心，所以我想……"],["鍾委員佳濱：軍備局要再生產防彈衣嗎？"],["林局長文祥：跟委員報告，剛剛委員的指導我們都有考量，當初我們的抗彈板就是考量要給國內生產，我們有分國內、有調查國內的產能，所以我們這次決標，抗彈板的陶瓷片是國內占60%……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。"],["林局長文祥：國外進口占40%。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你們的需求量呢？"],["林局長文祥：然後是採取長約，我們是二加一年。"],["鍾委員佳濱：細水長流。"],["林局長文祥：讓國內的廠商可以投資錢下去，我們會增強戰時國外進口沒辦法進來時國內的韌性，我們都是用這樣的方式去做考量的，以上報告。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。部長，最後我跟主席占用一下時間，講到防彈，大家都想到防彈衣，其實未來的軍需供應上，主要是抗彈板，用在裝備防護上，哪一種裝備要防護？油箱，大部分無人機、無人船，它未來的防護就是用這種方式組成，所以我說以防彈材質的這個產業來思考。","最後的結論，因為主席站起來了，請研議「各項軍品採購考量本土產業現況，並透過調適國防採購規模以扶植本土產業進入臺灣軍工供應鏈」之方案，這樣的思考可以來擬定，然後給本席一個說明嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：好，大概委員的意思應該就是建立一個比較長單的一個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：細水長流的長單。但是這裡面我要強調，臺灣有很多隱形冠軍，誰知道美軍用的這個鎖，臺灣廠商是最大供應商？但是有些臺灣本身的供應商正在起步，所以你們的採購規格要能夠扶植本土產業，我只是這個目的，可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：好，我們事後跟委員做一個說明。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員俊宇代）：謝謝鍾佳濱委員的質詢，部長先請回。","繼續我們邀請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","那我們請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":316,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-4","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","徐巧芯","李坤城","邱志偉","蔡易餘","林憶君","蘇清泉","王鴻薇"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況暨「四年期國防總檢討」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00016"}}}