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\"前面那段剛剛部長也有答覆我也有在主持我有聽到但是我還是覺得力道跟強度部長應該可以再加強這第一點那第二點我特別剛剛會引譽當時的新北市勞動局對勞發署發動這個勞檢然後昨天又有這個台北市的勞工局來對立院的這個國會辦公室來做勞檢基本上我們也在反對但是權責勒權責勒\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 463.308, \"end\": 463.428, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 463.428, \"end\": 463.508, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 463.508, \"end\": 463.688, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"段\", \"start\": 463.688, \"end\": 464.168, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 464.168, \"end\": 464.428, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 464.428, \"end\": 464.508, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 464.508, \"end\": 464.708, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 464.708, \"end\": 464.929, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"覆\", \"start\": 464.929, \"end\": 465.269, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 465.269, \"end\": 466.089, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 466.089, \"end\": 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\"start\": 1006.426, \"end\": 1006.586, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1006.586, \"end\": 1006.646, \"score\": 0.647}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 1006.646, \"end\": 1006.806, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1006.806, \"end\": 1006.987, \"score\": 0.774}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"培\", \"start\": 1006.987, \"end\": 1007.007, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"宇\", \"start\": 1007.007, \"end\": 1007.127, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1007.127, \"end\": 1007.147, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:20,013 --> 00:00:30,300\n好謝謝主席現在還不到12點已經在發送便當了\n\n2\n00:00:32,416 --> 00:00:41,552\n是不是部長因為從委員當部長瘦了瘦很多然後還是部長要靠藥\n\n3\n00:00:43,072 --> 00:01:09,933\n因為剛剛有蘇青委員特別講的因為蘇醫師是蘇青也是醫師嘛所以我是覺得今天部長創造很多的關鍵字延節瘦了靠藥然後行政院是胖子行政院是胖子所以行政院的預算特別多所以要瘦身把行政院比喻成胖子這有沒有歧視問題\n\n4\n00:01:11,428 --> 00:01:39,174\n那胖子就一定不健康嗎瘦身之後就一定會健康嗎我沒有看到部長有積極的回應部長請你上來好不好你是不是因為瘦了精神狀況有問題但這樣的比喻真的比喻有點奇怪嘛你不覺得嗎今天如果說胖子來引誉比喻行政院的這個預算的規模然後\n\n5\n00:01:40,449 --> 00:02:01,798\n這種邏輯是什麼?我實在不太清楚跟立委說明然後如果行政院預算是比較多然後來營育胖子那代表是胖子的脂肪比較多把行政院預算比喻胖子的脂肪然後瘦身之後會比較健康那站在行政院議員的一個部會首長\n\n6\n00:02:06,162 --> 00:02:25,252\n對這事情怎麼沒有做一個積極的回應我覺得這是有問題喔大總統要打造健康台灣我跟各位比喻一下啦健康兩個字這麼簡單嗎健康不需要付出成本嗎\n\n7\n00:02:26,733 --> 00:02:41,278\n事實上你不要顧賺錢啦,你不要顧上班啦,你身體健康要顧好啦,都用嘴說的,這樣就健康了嗎?你可不可以跟各位說,叫那些顧健康的人去顧自己,自己身體要顧到該量工啦?\n\n8\n00:02:42,290 --> 00:03:10,706\n所以健康是要付出成本的嘛對不對是當你勞動部增加預算的時候比往前年度增加預算的時候我有沒有聽到你們講出為什麼你比往前年度增加這些預算那你增加這些預算是要做什麼現在部長到任如果相關預算的增加有相關的正式對勞工有利對勞工是正面的我們被刪了我們被動了我們就應該去捍衛我們就該講得清清楚楚啊\n\n9\n00:03:11,892 --> 00:03:36,372\n怎麼人家以綠行政的預算增加了變胖了他就必須要該瘦身這樣會比較健康怎麼沒有聽到你們去做相關的應該去捍衛去表達你們要執行的這個預算的正當性而且不應該被草率的被刪被凍啊況且說被凍一定可以解凍誰說的算\n\n10\n00:03:38,402 --> 00:03:45,278\n誰說的算然後要你們提出相關的追加減你們不提出那你們的回應是什麼\n\n11\n00:03:46,824 --> 00:04:12,717\n當然透過互議是一個行政的各部會大家一起來不需要分辨別的在各個委員會來做這樣的事情處理但是另外一個反之當你真的有相關的政事你必須要去推動的時候你當然在委員會委員會是委員會主義啊你要去捍衛啊你要講啊你如果國民黨召委願意讓我們快速的排進我當然我這個部會我先來發動啊\n\n12\n00:04:14,107 --> 00:04:24,372\n那蔣同委員你要不要負責?你要不要協助?你要不要處理?你要不要回到你們黨團?確定之後你才在這個委員會講說你們為什麼不送來?但我沒聽到你們幾天回應這個事情啊我沒聽到你們講這個慷慨啊我會覺得我們在地方聽到很多人民百姓看到預算被刪的如此的離譜\n\n13\n00:04:43,117 --> 00:04:58,786\n看到昨天監察院的副院長以前親民黨重要的份子李鴻鈞副座都已經出來講了連監察院都已經動彈不得了甚至很多監察人員都必須從口袋掏錢出來才有辦法應付一般的相關事務啊都要出來講話啊都要遇到啊立法院是一個定制度的地方啊\n\n14\n00:05:09,929 --> 00:05:16,293\n但是一直在破壞制度這國家怎麼會正常立法院不正常台灣怎麼會正常那我希望官員要正常一點吧官員要如何正常新北市在勞動部勞發署發生了霸凌的時候新北市的勞動局跑來勞發署要勞檢可以嗎可以嗎\n\n15\n00:05:36,721 --> 00:05:49,068\n老幫手怎麼回應老幫手怎麼處理昨天台北市的勞動局跑來立法院勞檢某個委員的辦公室可以嗎當然有霸凌的事件當然有什麼樣奇怪的事件我覺得我樂觀其成但是勞檢完之後\n\n16\n00:06:00,612 --> 00:06:15,326\n他到底要對誰做出相關的這些處分是針對立法院還是針對那個委員因為立法院的錢這個助理的薪資是從立法院撥下去的不然這兩件事情你簡單對我做一個回應好不好好第一個事情是\n\n17\n00:06:25,598 --> 00:06:40,875\n那個我們沒有辦法接受把行政院預算的增加形容成胖子行政院為什麼他的預算的增加是因為這幾年我們的經濟成長包括稅收的增加也包括我們想要做的事情增加\n\n18\n00:06:41,556 --> 00:07:01,345\n包括剛才在講到的健康台灣或者是想要照顧的人民相關的權益增加我們也覺得現在是有財政餘力來做這件事情才增加並不是只要增加就會形容成胖子就該瘦身沒有這件事情因為現在很多地方政府其實他們的預算也是增加的但並不會因為說你只要預算增加就一定必須被砍這個在剛剛的時候其實我有說\n\n19\n00:07:05,390 --> 00:07:19,219\n這個預算的審查最重要的事情其實是要看科目你的三檢跟監督到底有沒有道理不是只要這個預算增加就必須要看我想這部分沒有辦法接受這是第一點第二點是關於剛剛委員說剛剛委員提到說這個相關的勞檢單位我們剛剛其實有說明\n\n20\n00:07:26,763 --> 00:07:41,368\n我認為其實應該要在兼顧這個我們勞檢要執行的精神跟尊重立法院的這兩個目的之下我們願意來跟立法院討論這些相關的機制包括假設如果要做檢查的機制的話該怎麼進行\n\n21\n00:07:43,308 --> 00:08:09,536\n前面那段剛剛部長也有答覆我也有在主持我有聽到但是我還是覺得力道跟強度部長應該可以再加強這第一點那第二點我特別剛剛會引譽當時的新北市勞動局對勞發署發動這個勞檢然後昨天又有這個台北市的勞工局來對立院的這個國會辦公室來做勞檢基本上我們也在反對但是權責勒權責勒\n\n22\n00:08:13,309 --> 00:08:25,463\n我要強調的是全職就像2016年2016年在立法院就發生讓議事人員不斷電的情況之下有過勞送醫的案例北市勞動局當時就到我們立法院來要做勞遣\n\n23\n00:08:26,328 --> 00:08:45,936\n但是另外一個意思就是說不適合啊不適用勞基華嘛對不對好今天才七天假啦我又有聽到部長的講的一段話畢竟你是行政院的議員所以當然主管機關是在內政部那你朝向可以正向的來做討論嘛這很好我們勞工有職安法\n\n24\n00:08:46,656 --> 00:08:58,579\n那工人員有什麼話2012年發生了一次我們在今年1月21號又發生了一次從凌晨5點24分的畫面各位可以看一下1月20號開會這全部都是工人員我們未還我們未還這一組又是最後的一定要等到5點應該是可能12點就要standby了可能進早然後等到5點24分他們才可以\n\n25\n00:09:13,752 --> 00:09:38,172\n等個議會時間ending完之後他們才可以離開然後離開完之後這已經足足幾個小時你可以看的齁足足從1月23號的10點開會到1月5點40分休息然後1月21號的1點又馬上開會這個中間沒有包含打卡沒有包含休息沒有包含事後的相關資料的準備事前的資料準備然後又馬上接續開會我覺得我覺得\n\n26\n00:09:42,694 --> 00:10:06,767\n我要請部長,因為我們職安法算是完善,但是公務人員他可能是什麼法律來做規範?就是這個公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法,簡稱安慰法,我們簡稱職安法。安慰辦法。對,但我們是法律嘛,他們是辦法。奇怪,對公務人員怎麼用這樣在處理?部長你有什麼看法?\n\n27\n00:10:08,737 --> 00:10:31,506\n現在確實是大家會有一些討論說公務員要不要適用治安法的問題在這個議題上面我們幾次的也跟考試院這邊去做確認確實現在考試院還是希望是來修訂他們的公務員保障法還有安慰辦法來去做公務員相關權益的保障\n\n28\n00:10:31,946 --> 00:10:55,451\n目前他們還是是希望用他們的這些法制的體系來去保障那就勞動部的角度來說所以也是在這狀況之下但我們現在主要責任法的修訂包括職場霸凌的專章還是真的一般職場的勞工但是這段這幾個月的時間我們也持續的跟考試院這邊在做意見的交換尤其是一些針對辦\n\n29\n00:10:56,291 --> 00:11:09,650\n包括霸凌認定啊包括霸凌相關機制處理我們也跟他們持續在討論之中可是目前他們確實還是認為公務員有一套公務員自己的法規的體系所以他們還是修保障法跟安慰辦法\n\n30\n00:11:10,765 --> 00:11:35,941\n我這邊有一個資料給部長做參考我是期待說就部長以處理七天假的角度看怎麼來協助這個事情保訓院現在在研裏要將安二法提升為法的位階做得到做不到還是一件事情但是他們目前研裏的方向是未來的上級單位每年至少一次對下級進行職業安全衛生檢查我想站在你們的專業你覺得這樣有嚇阻作用嗎要對立法院\n\n31\n00:11:38,899 --> 00:12:06,626\n然後找哪個上級來對這個立法院來做檢查他們可能指的比較不是立法院他們指的應該是政府各個機關或機構啦尤其是有上級機關的機關或機構我現在就比喻立法院開會這種情況在這種樣態的情況之下要怎麼處理說實話這部分當然我們還是要去跟考試院來做來做這部分要跟考試院做討論啦但是確實在立法院裡面其實並不是都是公務員\n\n32\n00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:32,151\n就是立法院裡面其實也有是有些是一般的勞工是沒有錯沒有錯但是多數是公務員是對不對對按比例來講嘛對啊那我說因為現在考試院在修訂公園保障法跟安慰辦法過程其實他們有找我們跟他們持續的討論因為在職安衛的專業上面確實是在我們職安署這邊是有過去比較多這樣子的專業所以我們提供這樣的專業給他們去做參考\n\n33\n00:12:34,931 --> 00:12:49,840\n這個是請部長來協助另外可能要請部長趕快來做相關的因應我們自己的這個勞警員有1033位的編制對不對但到目前為止好像一直空缺100多位就是一至兩成都沒辦法補足\n\n34\n00:12:51,760 --> 00:13:11,912\n這是主要什麼原因?就是我們現在安全衛生背景理工的同仁比較容易離職那在離職部分當然產業科技的發展確實需要比較高科技的人或是有專業的人所以我們一直希望說能夠讓檢查員能夠支持久任留用所以我們部長也特別支持我們目前希望從\n\n35\n00:13:13,433 --> 00:13:29,500\n改善我們的檢查方式用科技的方式來做監督檢查跟我們的同仁久任的部分可以鼓勵從不同面向來做展開啦跟他們生鮮汁及那個植奶的發展受限有沒有關係跟委員報告確實我們這一群大概一千多人所以\n\n36\n00:13:30,680 --> 00:13:44,805\n就是從地方檢察機構檢察員科長到檢察機構的處長到治安署可能組長副署長到組長我們在這個圈子就是這樣子所以民間的科技廠哇我們去當安全管理師管理員就非常機會就非常大但是我還認為說我們這是對\n\n37\n00:13:47,646 --> 00:14:02,727\n對企業有幫助對事業有幫助的一個工作我們是期待說不管是成就上或者說是生意上我們再做更多的有沒有很大的改善空間嘛好比說爭取為正式的能源編制還是怎樣去改善這樣的一個環境\n\n38\n00:14:03,308 --> 00:14:31,533\n跟劉仁說我們其實也有希望盡量來跟人中來爭取高高人人的編制但是現在在我上任之後其實我們也提出一個勞檢人專業能力以及工作支持的提升方案那希望透過更多的智慧化或者是增加大家專業化的方式來支撐勞檢人讓勞檢人就以他的這個工作為榮那之前其實我們也爭取到其實每個月有5000塊或3000塊的這個風險的加急工作的加急那\n\n39\n00:14:32,473 --> 00:14:56,813\n沒有錯現在勞警員的留任或我們要想辦法留住他們的專業這部分還是有待改善的空間這也是為什麼我們要提出這些勞警員的支持方案因為我到部裡面發現其實勞警員其實要面對很多事業單位的壓力其實這也是他們為什麼其實常常容易想要離職或者想要轉職一個很重要的原因所以我們怎麼樣給他們尊嚴跟包括在專業上面去全力的支持他們這是我們非常重視的事情\n\n40\n00:14:57,216 --> 00:15:11,993\n我要特別提到這個勞檢人員並非是正式的公務人員他在勞檢的場域過程裡面在執行相關的業務有視瓦性的問題\n\n41\n00:15:14,309 --> 00:15:26,319\n好來請署長報告其實我們有大部分的檢討員是高考特考分發那你講的聘用的部分大概是我們勞動條件檢查人大概有325個所以我們聘用條例聘用了但聘用的部分也是經過我們\n\n42\n00:15:28,359 --> 00:15:47,547\n訓練考核跟年度的考機的審核所以他們工作表現我們做比較上位一些了解所以我們當然希望JP的聘用檢查員他有聘用檢查員升到聘用視察的聘用專業的聘用視察我們連那個他升升現在這系列我們考慮到了所以我們現在反而是聘用檢查員的流動率沒有相對的\n\n43\n00:15:48,467 --> 00:16:02,912\n高太多但是專業的部分有能力的人一定會挖走這個其實是我們公務機關不是只有這個演藍園的這個會有這樣的情況其實很多公務機關專業人士很容易被民間挖走這是看起來是這整體面向的問題啦所以\n\n44\n00:16:05,093 --> 00:16:21,839\n但是我要跟委員說當然民間或者是產業都會有這樣人力的需求但我們部裡面還是會全力做的是把勞檢員的待遇包括專業跟支持提升我覺得這還是不管外界的吸力有多大但這部分我們還是會全力來做\n\n45\n00:16:22,399 --> 00:16:47,147\n所以像任總繼續爭取嘛然後他的升遷然後他的發展我想這個應該還是要請部長跟署長多費一點心思來看怎麼處理好不好是不是可以一個月內給我們一個你們要整體的這樣的改善提升的計畫把這些人可以好好的留住保衛起作用計畫給我們做參考好謝謝好謝謝主席好謝謝下一位我們請陳培宇委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n20013\t30300\t好 謝謝主席現在還不到12點 已經在發送便當了\n32416\t41552\t是不是部長因為從委員當部長瘦了瘦很多然後還是部長要靠藥\n43072\t69933\t因為剛剛有蘇青委員特別講的因為蘇醫師是蘇青也是醫師嘛所以我是覺得今天部長創造很多的關鍵字延節瘦了 靠藥然後行政院是胖子行政院是胖子所以行政院的預算特別多所以要瘦身把行政院比喻成胖子這有沒有歧視問題\n71428\t99174\t那胖子就一定不健康嗎瘦身之後就一定會健康嗎我沒有看到部長有積極的回應部長請你上來好不好你是不是因為瘦了精神狀況有問題但這樣的比喻真的比喻有點奇怪嘛你不覺得嗎今天如果說胖子來引誉比喻行政院的這個預算的規模然後\n100449\t121798\t這種邏輯是什麼?我實在不太清楚跟立委說明然後如果行政院預算是比較多然後來營育胖子那代表是胖子的脂肪比較多把行政院預算比喻胖子的脂肪然後瘦身之後會比較健康那站在行政院議員的一個部會首長\n126162\t145252\t對這事情怎麼沒有做一個積極的回應我覺得這是有問題喔大總統要打造健康台灣我跟各位比喻一下啦健康兩個字這麼簡單嗎健康不需要付出成本嗎\n146733\t161278\t事實上你不要顧賺錢啦,你不要顧上班啦,你身體健康要顧好啦,都用嘴說的,這樣就健康了嗎?你可不可以跟各位說,叫那些顧健康的人去顧自己,自己身體要顧到該量工啦?\n162290\t190706\t所以健康是要付出成本的嘛對不對是當你勞動部增加預算的時候比往前年度增加預算的時候我有沒有聽到你們講出為什麼你比往前年度增加這些預算那你增加這些預算是要做什麼現在部長到任如果相關預算的增加有相關的正式對勞工有利對勞工是正面的我們被刪了我們被動了我們就應該去捍衛我們就該講得清清楚楚啊\n191892\t216372\t怎麼人家以綠行政的預算增加了變胖了他就必須要該瘦身這樣會比較健康怎麼沒有聽到你們去做相關的應該去捍衛去表達你們要執行的這個預算的正當性而且不應該被草率的被刪被凍啊況且說被凍一定可以解凍誰說的算\n218402\t225278\t誰說的算然後要你們提出相關的追加減你們不提出那你們的回應是什麼\n226824\t252717\t當然透過互議是一個行政的各部會大家一起來不需要分辨別的在各個委員會來做這樣的事情處理但是另外一個反之當你真的有相關的政事你必須要去推動的時候你當然在委員會委員會是委員會主義啊你要去捍衛啊你要講啊你如果國民黨召委願意讓我們快速的排進我當然我這個部會我先來發動啊\n254107\t264372\t那蔣同委員你要不要負責?你要不要協助?你要不要處理?你要不要回到你們黨團?確定之後你才在這個委員會講說你們為什麼不送來?但我沒聽到你們幾天回應這個事情啊我沒聽到你們講這個慷慨啊我會覺得我們在地方聽到很多人民百姓看到預算被刪的如此的離譜\n283117\t298786\t看到昨天監察院的副院長以前親民黨重要的份子李鴻鈞副座都已經出來講了連監察院都已經動彈不得了甚至很多監察人員都必須從口袋掏錢出來才有辦法應付一般的相關事務啊都要出來講話啊都要遇到啊立法院是一個定制度的地方啊\n309929\t316293\t但是一直在破壞制度這國家怎麼會正常立法院不正常 台灣怎麼會正常那我希望官員要正常一點吧官員要如何正常新北市在勞動部勞發署發生了霸凌的時候新北市的勞動局跑來勞發署要勞檢可以嗎可以嗎\n336721\t349068\t老幫手怎麼回應老幫手怎麼處理昨天台北市的勞動局跑來立法院勞檢某個委員的辦公室可以嗎當然有霸凌的事件當然有什麼樣奇怪的事件我覺得我樂觀其成但是勞檢完之後\n360612\t375326\t他到底要對誰做出相關的這些處分是針對立法院還是針對那個委員因為立法院的錢這個助理的薪資是從立法院撥下去的不然這兩件事情你簡單對我做一個回應好不好好 第一個事情是\n385598\t400875\t那個我們沒有辦法接受把行政院預算的增加形容成胖子行政院為什麼他的預算的增加是因為這幾年我們的經濟成長包括稅收的增加也包括我們想要做的事情增加\n401556\t421345\t包括剛才在講到的健康台灣或者是想要照顧的人民相關的權益增加我們也覺得現在是有財政餘力來做這件事情才增加並不是只要增加就會形容成胖子就該瘦身沒有這件事情因為現在很多地方政府其實他們的預算也是增加的但並不會因為說你只要預算增加就一定必須被砍這個在剛剛的時候其實我有說\n425390\t439219\t這個預算的審查最重要的事情其實是要看科目你的三檢跟監督到底有沒有道理不是只要這個預算增加就必須要看我想這部分沒有辦法接受這是第一點第二點是關於剛剛委員說剛剛委員提到說這個相關的勞檢單位我們剛剛其實有說明\n446763\t461368\t我認為其實應該要在兼顧這個我們勞檢要執行的精神跟尊重立法院的這兩個目的之下我們願意來跟立法院討論這些相關的機制包括假設如果要做檢查的機制的話該怎麼進行\n463308\t489536\t前面那段剛剛部長也有答覆我也有在主持我有聽到但是我還是覺得力道跟強度部長應該可以再加強這第一點那第二點我特別剛剛會引譽當時的新北市勞動局對勞發署發動這個勞檢然後昨天又有這個台北市的勞工局來對立院的這個國會辦公室來做勞檢基本上我們也在反對但是權責勒權責勒\n493309\t505463\t我要強調的是全職就像2016年2016年在立法院就發生讓議事人員不斷電的情況之下有過勞送醫的案例北市勞動局當時就到我們立法院來要做勞遣\n506328\t525936\t但是另外一個意思就是說不適合啊不適用勞基華嘛對不對好今天才七天假啦我又有聽到部長的講的一段話畢竟你是行政院的議員所以當然主管機關是在內政部那你朝向可以正向的來做討論嘛這很好我們勞工有職安法\n526656\t538579\t那工人員有什麼話2012年發生了一次我們在今年1月21號又發生了一次從凌晨5點24分的畫面各位可以看一下1月20號開會這全部都是工人員我們未還我們未還這一組又是最後的一定要等到5點應該是可能12點就要stand by了可能進早然後等到5點24分他們才可以\n553752\t578172\t等個議會時間ending完之後他們才可以離開然後離開完之後這已經足足幾個小時你可以看的齁足足從1月23號的10點開會到1月5點40分休息然後1月21號的1點又馬上開會這個中間沒有包含打卡沒有包含休息沒有包含事後的相關資料的準備事前的資料準備然後又馬上接續開會我覺得我覺得\n582694\t606767\t我要請部長,因為我們職安法算是完善,但是公務人員他可能是什麼法律來做規範?就是這個公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法,簡稱安慰法,我們簡稱職安法。安慰辦法。對,但我們是法律嘛,他們是辦法。奇怪,對公務人員怎麼用這樣在處理?部長你有什麼看法?\n608737\t631506\t現在確實是大家會有一些討論說公務員要不要適用治安法的問題在這個議題上面我們幾次的也跟考試院這邊去做確認確實現在考試院還是希望是來修訂他們的公務員保障法還有安慰辦法來去做公務員相關權益的保障\n631946\t655451\t目前他們還是是希望用他們的這些法制的體系來去保障那就勞動部的角度來說所以也是在這狀況之下但我們現在主要責任法的修訂包括職場霸凌的專章還是真的一般職場的勞工但是這段這幾個月的時間我們也持續的跟考試院這邊在做意見的交換尤其是一些針對辦\n656291\t669650\t包括霸凌認定啊包括霸凌相關機制處理我們也跟他們持續在討論之中可是目前他們確實還是認為公務員有一套公務員自己的法規的體系所以他們還是修保障法跟安慰辦法\n670765\t695941\t我這邊有一個資料給部長做參考我是期待說就部長以處理七天假的角度看怎麼來協助這個事情保訓院現在在研裏要將安二法提升為法的位階做得到做不到還是一件事情但是他們目前研裏的方向是未來的上級單位每年至少一次對下級進行職業安全衛生檢查我想站在你們的專業你覺得這樣有嚇阻作用嗎要對立法院\n698899\t726626\t然後找哪個上級來對這個立法院來做檢查他們可能指的比較不是立法院他們指的應該是政府各個機關或機構啦尤其是有上級機關的機關或機構我現在就比喻立法院開會這種情況在這種樣態的情況之下要怎麼處理說實話這部分當然我們還是要去跟考試院來做來做這部分要跟考試院做討論啦但是確實在立法院裡面其實並不是都是公務員\n728240\t752151\t就是立法院裡面其實也有是有些是一般的勞工是沒有錯沒有錯但是多數是公務員是對不對對按比例來講嘛對啊那我說因為現在考試院在修訂公園保障法跟安慰辦法過程其實他們有找我們跟他們持續的討論因為在職安衛的專業上面確實是在我們職安署這邊是有過去比較多這樣子的專業所以我們提供這樣的專業給他們去做參考\n754931\t769840\t這個是請部長來協助另外可能要請部長趕快來做相關的因應我們自己的這個勞警員有1033位的編制對不對但到目前為止好像一直空缺100多位就是一至兩成都沒辦法補足\n771760\t791912\t這是主要什麼原因?就是我們現在安全衛生背景理工的同仁比較容易離職那在離職部分當然產業科技的發展確實需要比較高科技的人或是有專業的人所以我們一直希望說能夠讓檢查員能夠支持久任留用所以我們部長也特別支持我們目前希望從\n793433\t809500\t改善我們的檢查方式用科技的方式來做監督檢查跟我們的同仁久任的部分可以鼓勵從不同面向來做展開啦跟他們生鮮汁及那個植奶的發展受限有沒有關係跟委員報告確實我們這一群大概一千多人所以\n810680\t824805\t就是從地方檢察機構檢察員科長到檢察機構的處長到治安署可能組長副署長到組長我們在這個圈子就是這樣子所以民間的科技廠哇我們去當安全管理師管理員就非常機會就非常大但是我還認為說我們這是對\n827646\t842727\t對企業有幫助對事業有幫助的一個工作我們是期待說不管是成就上或者說是生意上我們再做更多的有沒有很大的改善空間嘛好比說爭取為正式的能源編制還是怎樣去改善這樣的一個環境\n843308\t871533\t跟劉仁說我們其實也有希望盡量來跟人中來爭取高高人人的編制但是現在在我上任之後其實我們也提出一個勞檢人專業能力以及工作支持的提升方案那希望透過更多的智慧化或者是增加大家專業化的方式來支撐勞檢人讓勞檢人就以他的這個工作為榮那之前其實我們也爭取到其實每個月有5000塊或3000塊的這個風險的加急工作的加急那\n872473\t896813\t沒有錯 現在勞警員的留任或我們要想辦法留住他們的專業這部分還是有待改善的空間這也是為什麼我們要提出這些勞警員的支持方案因為我到部裡面發現其實勞警員其實要面對很多事業單位的壓力其實這也是他們為什麼其實常常容易想要離職或者想要轉職一個很重要的原因所以我們怎麼樣給他們尊嚴跟包括在專業上面去全力的支持他們這是我們非常重視的事情\n897216\t911993\t我要特別提到這個勞檢人員並非是正式的公務人員他在勞檢的場域過程裡面在執行相關的業務有視瓦性的問題\n914309\t926319\t好來請署長報告其實我們有大部分的檢討員是高考特考分發那你講的聘用的部分大概是我們勞動條件檢查人大概有325個所以我們聘用條例聘用了但聘用的部分也是經過我們\n928359\t947547\t訓練考核跟年度的考機的審核所以他們工作表現我們做比較上位一些了解所以我們當然希望JP的聘用檢查員他有聘用檢查員升到聘用視察的聘用專業的聘用視察我們連那個他升升現在這系列我們考慮到了所以我們現在反而是聘用檢查員的流動率沒有相對的\n948467\t962912\t高太多但是專業的部分有能力的人一定會挖走這個其實是我們公務機關不是只有這個演藍園的這個會有這樣的情況其實很多公務機關專業人士很容易被民間挖走這是看起來是這整體面向的問題啦所以\n965093\t981839\t但是我要跟委員說當然民間或者是產業都會有這樣人力的需求但我們部裡面還是會全力做的是把勞檢員的待遇包括專業跟支持提升我覺得這還是不管外界的吸力有多大但這部分我們還是會全力來做\n982399\t1007147\t所以像任總繼續爭取嘛然後他的升遷然後他的發展我想這個應該還是要請部長跟署長多費一點心思來看怎麼處理好不好是不是可以一個月內給我們一個你們要整體的這樣的改善提升的計畫把這些人可以好好的留住保衛起作用計畫給我們做參考好謝謝好謝謝主席好謝謝下一位我們請陳培宇委員\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席現在還不到12點 已經在發送便當了\n是不是部長因為從委員當部長瘦了瘦很多然後還是部長要靠藥\n因為剛剛有蘇青委員特別講的因為蘇醫師是蘇青也是醫師嘛所以我是覺得今天部長創造很多的關鍵字延節瘦了 靠藥然後行政院是胖子行政院是胖子所以行政院的預算特別多所以要瘦身把行政院比喻成胖子這有沒有歧視問題\n那胖子就一定不健康嗎瘦身之後就一定會健康嗎我沒有看到部長有積極的回應部長請你上來好不好你是不是因為瘦了精神狀況有問題但這樣的比喻真的比喻有點奇怪嘛你不覺得嗎今天如果說胖子來引誉比喻行政院的這個預算的規模然後\n這種邏輯是什麼?我實在不太清楚跟立委說明然後如果行政院預算是比較多然後來營育胖子那代表是胖子的脂肪比較多把行政院預算比喻胖子的脂肪然後瘦身之後會比較健康那站在行政院議員的一個部會首長\n對這事情怎麼沒有做一個積極的回應我覺得這是有問題喔大總統要打造健康台灣我跟各位比喻一下啦健康兩個字這麼簡單嗎健康不需要付出成本嗎\n事實上你不要顧賺錢啦,你不要顧上班啦,你身體健康要顧好啦,都用嘴說的,這樣就健康了嗎?你可不可以跟各位說,叫那些顧健康的人去顧自己,自己身體要顧到該量工啦?\n所以健康是要付出成本的嘛對不對是當你勞動部增加預算的時候比往前年度增加預算的時候我有沒有聽到你們講出為什麼你比往前年度增加這些預算那你增加這些預算是要做什麼現在部長到任如果相關預算的增加有相關的正式對勞工有利對勞工是正面的我們被刪了我們被動了我們就應該去捍衛我們就該講得清清楚楚啊\n怎麼人家以綠行政的預算增加了變胖了他就必須要該瘦身這樣會比較健康怎麼沒有聽到你們去做相關的應該去捍衛去表達你們要執行的這個預算的正當性而且不應該被草率的被刪被凍啊況且說被凍一定可以解凍誰說的算\n誰說的算然後要你們提出相關的追加減你們不提出那你們的回應是什麼\n當然透過互議是一個行政的各部會大家一起來不需要分辨別的在各個委員會來做這樣的事情處理但是另外一個反之當你真的有相關的政事你必須要去推動的時候你當然在委員會委員會是委員會主義啊你要去捍衛啊你要講啊你如果國民黨召委願意讓我們快速的排進我當然我這個部會我先來發動啊\n那蔣同委員你要不要負責?你要不要協助?你要不要處理?你要不要回到你們黨團?確定之後你才在這個委員會講說你們為什麼不送來?但我沒聽到你們幾天回應這個事情啊我沒聽到你們講這個慷慨啊我會覺得我們在地方聽到很多人民百姓看到預算被刪的如此的離譜\n看到昨天監察院的副院長以前親民黨重要的份子李鴻鈞副座都已經出來講了連監察院都已經動彈不得了甚至很多監察人員都必須從口袋掏錢出來才有辦法應付一般的相關事務啊都要出來講話啊都要遇到啊立法院是一個定制度的地方啊\n但是一直在破壞制度這國家怎麼會正常立法院不正常 台灣怎麼會正常那我希望官員要正常一點吧官員要如何正常新北市在勞動部勞發署發生了霸凌的時候新北市的勞動局跑來勞發署要勞檢可以嗎可以嗎\n老幫手怎麼回應老幫手怎麼處理昨天台北市的勞動局跑來立法院勞檢某個委員的辦公室可以嗎當然有霸凌的事件當然有什麼樣奇怪的事件我覺得我樂觀其成但是勞檢完之後\n他到底要對誰做出相關的這些處分是針對立法院還是針對那個委員因為立法院的錢這個助理的薪資是從立法院撥下去的不然這兩件事情你簡單對我做一個回應好不好好 第一個事情是\n那個我們沒有辦法接受把行政院預算的增加形容成胖子行政院為什麼他的預算的增加是因為這幾年我們的經濟成長包括稅收的增加也包括我們想要做的事情增加\n包括剛才在講到的健康台灣或者是想要照顧的人民相關的權益增加我們也覺得現在是有財政餘力來做這件事情才增加並不是只要增加就會形容成胖子就該瘦身沒有這件事情因為現在很多地方政府其實他們的預算也是增加的但並不會因為說你只要預算增加就一定必須被砍這個在剛剛的時候其實我有說\n這個預算的審查最重要的事情其實是要看科目你的三檢跟監督到底有沒有道理不是只要這個預算增加就必須要看我想這部分沒有辦法接受這是第一點第二點是關於剛剛委員說剛剛委員提到說這個相關的勞檢單位我們剛剛其實有說明\n我認為其實應該要在兼顧這個我們勞檢要執行的精神跟尊重立法院的這兩個目的之下我們願意來跟立法院討論這些相關的機制包括假設如果要做檢查的機制的話該怎麼進行\n前面那段剛剛部長也有答覆我也有在主持我有聽到但是我還是覺得力道跟強度部長應該可以再加強這第一點那第二點我特別剛剛會引譽當時的新北市勞動局對勞發署發動這個勞檢然後昨天又有這個台北市的勞工局來對立院的這個國會辦公室來做勞檢基本上我們也在反對但是權責勒權責勒\n我要強調的是全職就像2016年2016年在立法院就發生讓議事人員不斷電的情況之下有過勞送醫的案例北市勞動局當時就到我們立法院來要做勞遣\n但是另外一個意思就是說不適合啊不適用勞基華嘛對不對好今天才七天假啦我又有聽到部長的講的一段話畢竟你是行政院的議員所以當然主管機關是在內政部那你朝向可以正向的來做討論嘛這很好我們勞工有職安法\n那工人員有什麼話2012年發生了一次我們在今年1月21號又發生了一次從凌晨5點24分的畫面各位可以看一下1月20號開會這全部都是工人員我們未還我們未還這一組又是最後的一定要等到5點應該是可能12點就要stand by了可能進早然後等到5點24分他們才可以\n等個議會時間ending完之後他們才可以離開然後離開完之後這已經足足幾個小時你可以看的齁足足從1月23號的10點開會到1月5點40分休息然後1月21號的1點又馬上開會這個中間沒有包含打卡沒有包含休息沒有包含事後的相關資料的準備事前的資料準備然後又馬上接續開會我覺得我覺得\n我要請部長,因為我們職安法算是完善,但是公務人員他可能是什麼法律來做規範?就是這個公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法,簡稱安慰法,我們簡稱職安法。安慰辦法。對,但我們是法律嘛,他們是辦法。奇怪,對公務人員怎麼用這樣在處理?部長你有什麼看法?\n現在確實是大家會有一些討論說公務員要不要適用治安法的問題在這個議題上面我們幾次的也跟考試院這邊去做確認確實現在考試院還是希望是來修訂他們的公務員保障法還有安慰辦法來去做公務員相關權益的保障\n目前他們還是是希望用他們的這些法制的體系來去保障那就勞動部的角度來說所以也是在這狀況之下但我們現在主要責任法的修訂包括職場霸凌的專章還是真的一般職場的勞工但是這段這幾個月的時間我們也持續的跟考試院這邊在做意見的交換尤其是一些針對辦\n包括霸凌認定啊包括霸凌相關機制處理我們也跟他們持續在討論之中可是目前他們確實還是認為公務員有一套公務員自己的法規的體系所以他們還是修保障法跟安慰辦法\n我這邊有一個資料給部長做參考我是期待說就部長以處理七天假的角度看怎麼來協助這個事情保訓院現在在研裏要將安二法提升為法的位階做得到做不到還是一件事情但是他們目前研裏的方向是未來的上級單位每年至少一次對下級進行職業安全衛生檢查我想站在你們的專業你覺得這樣有嚇阻作用嗎要對立法院\n然後找哪個上級來對這個立法院來做檢查他們可能指的比較不是立法院他們指的應該是政府各個機關或機構啦尤其是有上級機關的機關或機構我現在就比喻立法院開會這種情況在這種樣態的情況之下要怎麼處理說實話這部分當然我們還是要去跟考試院來做來做這部分要跟考試院做討論啦但是確實在立法院裡面其實並不是都是公務員\n就是立法院裡面其實也有是有些是一般的勞工是沒有錯沒有錯但是多數是公務員是對不對對按比例來講嘛對啊那我說因為現在考試院在修訂公園保障法跟安慰辦法過程其實他們有找我們跟他們持續的討論因為在職安衛的專業上面確實是在我們職安署這邊是有過去比較多這樣子的專業所以我們提供這樣的專業給他們去做參考\n這個是請部長來協助另外可能要請部長趕快來做相關的因應我們自己的這個勞警員有1033位的編制對不對但到目前為止好像一直空缺100多位就是一至兩成都沒辦法補足\n這是主要什麼原因?就是我們現在安全衛生背景理工的同仁比較容易離職那在離職部分當然產業科技的發展確實需要比較高科技的人或是有專業的人所以我們一直希望說能夠讓檢查員能夠支持久任留用所以我們部長也特別支持我們目前希望從\n改善我們的檢查方式用科技的方式來做監督檢查跟我們的同仁久任的部分可以鼓勵從不同面向來做展開啦跟他們生鮮汁及那個植奶的發展受限有沒有關係跟委員報告確實我們這一群大概一千多人所以\n就是從地方檢察機構檢察員科長到檢察機構的處長到治安署可能組長副署長到組長我們在這個圈子就是這樣子所以民間的科技廠哇我們去當安全管理師管理員就非常機會就非常大但是我還認為說我們這是對\n對企業有幫助對事業有幫助的一個工作我們是期待說不管是成就上或者說是生意上我們再做更多的有沒有很大的改善空間嘛好比說爭取為正式的能源編制還是怎樣去改善這樣的一個環境\n跟劉仁說我們其實也有希望盡量來跟人中來爭取高高人人的編制但是現在在我上任之後其實我們也提出一個勞檢人專業能力以及工作支持的提升方案那希望透過更多的智慧化或者是增加大家專業化的方式來支撐勞檢人讓勞檢人就以他的這個工作為榮那之前其實我們也爭取到其實每個月有5000塊或3000塊的這個風險的加急工作的加急那\n沒有錯 現在勞警員的留任或我們要想辦法留住他們的專業這部分還是有待改善的空間這也是為什麼我們要提出這些勞警員的支持方案因為我到部裡面發現其實勞警員其實要面對很多事業單位的壓力其實這也是他們為什麼其實常常容易想要離職或者想要轉職一個很重要的原因所以我們怎麼樣給他們尊嚴跟包括在專業上面去全力的支持他們這是我們非常重視的事情\n我要特別提到這個勞檢人員並非是正式的公務人員他在勞檢的場域過程裡面在執行相關的業務有視瓦性的問題\n好來請署長報告其實我們有大部分的檢討員是高考特考分發那你講的聘用的部分大概是我們勞動條件檢查人大概有325個所以我們聘用條例聘用了但聘用的部分也是經過我們\n訓練考核跟年度的考機的審核所以他們工作表現我們做比較上位一些了解所以我們當然希望JP的聘用檢查員他有聘用檢查員升到聘用視察的聘用專業的聘用視察我們連那個他升升現在這系列我們考慮到了所以我們現在反而是聘用檢查員的流動率沒有相對的\n高太多但是專業的部分有能力的人一定會挖走這個其實是我們公務機關不是只有這個演藍園的這個會有這樣的情況其實很多公務機關專業人士很容易被民間挖走這是看起來是這整體面向的問題啦所以\n但是我要跟委員說當然民間或者是產業都會有這樣人力的需求但我們部裡面還是會全力做的是把勞檢員的待遇包括專業跟支持提升我覺得這還是不管外界的吸力有多大但這部分我們還是會全力來做\n所以像任總繼續爭取嘛然後他的升遷然後他的發展我想這個應該還是要請部長跟署長多費一點心思來看怎麼處理好不好是不是可以一個月內給我們一個你們要整體的這樣的改善提升的計畫把這些人可以好好的留住保衛起作用計畫給我們做參考好謝謝好謝謝主席好謝謝下一位我們請陳培宇委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:20.013 --> 00:30.300\n好謝謝主席現在還不到12點已經在發送便當了\n\n00:32.416 --> 00:41.552\n是不是部長因為從委員當部長瘦了瘦很多然後還是部長要靠藥\n\n00:43.072 --> 01:09.933\n因為剛剛有蘇青委員特別講的因為蘇醫師是蘇青也是醫師嘛所以我是覺得今天部長創造很多的關鍵字延節瘦了靠藥然後行政院是胖子行政院是胖子所以行政院的預算特別多所以要瘦身把行政院比喻成胖子這有沒有歧視問題\n\n01:11.428 --> 01:39.174\n那胖子就一定不健康嗎瘦身之後就一定會健康嗎我沒有看到部長有積極的回應部長請你上來好不好你是不是因為瘦了精神狀況有問題但這樣的比喻真的比喻有點奇怪嘛你不覺得嗎今天如果說胖子來引誉比喻行政院的這個預算的規模然後\n\n01:40.449 --> 02:01.798\n這種邏輯是什麼?我實在不太清楚跟立委說明然後如果行政院預算是比較多然後來營育胖子那代表是胖子的脂肪比較多把行政院預算比喻胖子的脂肪然後瘦身之後會比較健康那站在行政院議員的一個部會首長\n\n02:06.162 --> 02:25.252\n對這事情怎麼沒有做一個積極的回應我覺得這是有問題喔大總統要打造健康台灣我跟各位比喻一下啦健康兩個字這麼簡單嗎健康不需要付出成本嗎\n\n02:26.733 --> 02:41.278\n事實上你不要顧賺錢啦,你不要顧上班啦,你身體健康要顧好啦,都用嘴說的,這樣就健康了嗎?你可不可以跟各位說,叫那些顧健康的人去顧自己,自己身體要顧到該量工啦?\n\n02:42.290 --> 03:10.706\n所以健康是要付出成本的嘛對不對是當你勞動部增加預算的時候比往前年度增加預算的時候我有沒有聽到你們講出為什麼你比往前年度增加這些預算那你增加這些預算是要做什麼現在部長到任如果相關預算的增加有相關的正式對勞工有利對勞工是正面的我們被刪了我們被動了我們就應該去捍衛我們就該講得清清楚楚啊\n\n03:11.892 --> 03:36.372\n怎麼人家以綠行政的預算增加了變胖了他就必須要該瘦身這樣會比較健康怎麼沒有聽到你們去做相關的應該去捍衛去表達你們要執行的這個預算的正當性而且不應該被草率的被刪被凍啊況且說被凍一定可以解凍誰說的算\n\n03:38.402 --> 03:45.278\n誰說的算然後要你們提出相關的追加減你們不提出那你們的回應是什麼\n\n03:46.824 --> 04:12.717\n當然透過互議是一個行政的各部會大家一起來不需要分辨別的在各個委員會來做這樣的事情處理但是另外一個反之當你真的有相關的政事你必須要去推動的時候你當然在委員會委員會是委員會主義啊你要去捍衛啊你要講啊你如果國民黨召委願意讓我們快速的排進我當然我這個部會我先來發動啊\n\n04:14.107 --> 04:24.372\n那蔣同委員你要不要負責?你要不要協助?你要不要處理?你要不要回到你們黨團?確定之後你才在這個委員會講說你們為什麼不送來?但我沒聽到你們幾天回應這個事情啊我沒聽到你們講這個慷慨啊我會覺得我們在地方聽到很多人民百姓看到預算被刪的如此的離譜\n\n04:43.117 --> 04:58.786\n看到昨天監察院的副院長以前親民黨重要的份子李鴻鈞副座都已經出來講了連監察院都已經動彈不得了甚至很多監察人員都必須從口袋掏錢出來才有辦法應付一般的相關事務啊都要出來講話啊都要遇到啊立法院是一個定制度的地方啊\n\n05:09.929 --> 05:16.293\n但是一直在破壞制度這國家怎麼會正常立法院不正常台灣怎麼會正常那我希望官員要正常一點吧官員要如何正常新北市在勞動部勞發署發生了霸凌的時候新北市的勞動局跑來勞發署要勞檢可以嗎可以嗎\n\n05:36.721 --> 05:49.068\n老幫手怎麼回應老幫手怎麼處理昨天台北市的勞動局跑來立法院勞檢某個委員的辦公室可以嗎當然有霸凌的事件當然有什麼樣奇怪的事件我覺得我樂觀其成但是勞檢完之後\n\n06:00.612 --> 06:15.326\n他到底要對誰做出相關的這些處分是針對立法院還是針對那個委員因為立法院的錢這個助理的薪資是從立法院撥下去的不然這兩件事情你簡單對我做一個回應好不好好第一個事情是\n\n06:25.598 --> 06:40.875\n那個我們沒有辦法接受把行政院預算的增加形容成胖子行政院為什麼他的預算的增加是因為這幾年我們的經濟成長包括稅收的增加也包括我們想要做的事情增加\n\n06:41.556 --> 07:01.345\n包括剛才在講到的健康台灣或者是想要照顧的人民相關的權益增加我們也覺得現在是有財政餘力來做這件事情才增加並不是只要增加就會形容成胖子就該瘦身沒有這件事情因為現在很多地方政府其實他們的預算也是增加的但並不會因為說你只要預算增加就一定必須被砍這個在剛剛的時候其實我有說\n\n07:05.390 --> 07:19.219\n這個預算的審查最重要的事情其實是要看科目你的三檢跟監督到底有沒有道理不是只要這個預算增加就必須要看我想這部分沒有辦法接受這是第一點第二點是關於剛剛委員說剛剛委員提到說這個相關的勞檢單位我們剛剛其實有說明\n\n07:26.763 --> 07:41.368\n我認為其實應該要在兼顧這個我們勞檢要執行的精神跟尊重立法院的這兩個目的之下我們願意來跟立法院討論這些相關的機制包括假設如果要做檢查的機制的話該怎麼進行\n\n07:43.308 --> 08:09.536\n前面那段剛剛部長也有答覆我也有在主持我有聽到但是我還是覺得力道跟強度部長應該可以再加強這第一點那第二點我特別剛剛會引譽當時的新北市勞動局對勞發署發動這個勞檢然後昨天又有這個台北市的勞工局來對立院的這個國會辦公室來做勞檢基本上我們也在反對但是權責勒權責勒\n\n08:13.309 --> 08:25.463\n我要強調的是全職就像2016年2016年在立法院就發生讓議事人員不斷電的情況之下有過勞送醫的案例北市勞動局當時就到我們立法院來要做勞遣\n\n08:26.328 --> 08:45.936\n但是另外一個意思就是說不適合啊不適用勞基華嘛對不對好今天才七天假啦我又有聽到部長的講的一段話畢竟你是行政院的議員所以當然主管機關是在內政部那你朝向可以正向的來做討論嘛這很好我們勞工有職安法\n\n08:46.656 --> 08:58.579\n那工人員有什麼話2012年發生了一次我們在今年1月21號又發生了一次從凌晨5點24分的畫面各位可以看一下1月20號開會這全部都是工人員我們未還我們未還這一組又是最後的一定要等到5點應該是可能12點就要standby了可能進早然後等到5點24分他們才可以\n\n09:13.752 --> 09:38.172\n等個議會時間ending完之後他們才可以離開然後離開完之後這已經足足幾個小時你可以看的齁足足從1月23號的10點開會到1月5點40分休息然後1月21號的1點又馬上開會這個中間沒有包含打卡沒有包含休息沒有包含事後的相關資料的準備事前的資料準備然後又馬上接續開會我覺得我覺得\n\n09:42.694 --> 10:06.767\n我要請部長,因為我們職安法算是完善,但是公務人員他可能是什麼法律來做規範?就是這個公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法,簡稱安慰法,我們簡稱職安法。安慰辦法。對,但我們是法律嘛,他們是辦法。奇怪,對公務人員怎麼用這樣在處理?部長你有什麼看法?\n\n10:08.737 --> 10:31.506\n現在確實是大家會有一些討論說公務員要不要適用治安法的問題在這個議題上面我們幾次的也跟考試院這邊去做確認確實現在考試院還是希望是來修訂他們的公務員保障法還有安慰辦法來去做公務員相關權益的保障\n\n10:31.946 --> 10:55.451\n目前他們還是是希望用他們的這些法制的體系來去保障那就勞動部的角度來說所以也是在這狀況之下但我們現在主要責任法的修訂包括職場霸凌的專章還是真的一般職場的勞工但是這段這幾個月的時間我們也持續的跟考試院這邊在做意見的交換尤其是一些針對辦\n\n10:56.291 --> 11:09.650\n包括霸凌認定啊包括霸凌相關機制處理我們也跟他們持續在討論之中可是目前他們確實還是認為公務員有一套公務員自己的法規的體系所以他們還是修保障法跟安慰辦法\n\n11:10.765 --> 11:35.941\n我這邊有一個資料給部長做參考我是期待說就部長以處理七天假的角度看怎麼來協助這個事情保訓院現在在研裏要將安二法提升為法的位階做得到做不到還是一件事情但是他們目前研裏的方向是未來的上級單位每年至少一次對下級進行職業安全衛生檢查我想站在你們的專業你覺得這樣有嚇阻作用嗎要對立法院\n\n11:38.899 --> 12:06.626\n然後找哪個上級來對這個立法院來做檢查他們可能指的比較不是立法院他們指的應該是政府各個機關或機構啦尤其是有上級機關的機關或機構我現在就比喻立法院開會這種情況在這種樣態的情況之下要怎麼處理說實話這部分當然我們還是要去跟考試院來做來做這部分要跟考試院做討論啦但是確實在立法院裡面其實並不是都是公務員\n\n12:08.240 --> 12:32.151\n就是立法院裡面其實也有是有些是一般的勞工是沒有錯沒有錯但是多數是公務員是對不對對按比例來講嘛對啊那我說因為現在考試院在修訂公園保障法跟安慰辦法過程其實他們有找我們跟他們持續的討論因為在職安衛的專業上面確實是在我們職安署這邊是有過去比較多這樣子的專業所以我們提供這樣的專業給他們去做參考\n\n12:34.931 --> 12:49.840\n這個是請部長來協助另外可能要請部長趕快來做相關的因應我們自己的這個勞警員有1033位的編制對不對但到目前為止好像一直空缺100多位就是一至兩成都沒辦法補足\n\n12:51.760 --> 13:11.912\n這是主要什麼原因?就是我們現在安全衛生背景理工的同仁比較容易離職那在離職部分當然產業科技的發展確實需要比較高科技的人或是有專業的人所以我們一直希望說能夠讓檢查員能夠支持久任留用所以我們部長也特別支持我們目前希望從\n\n13:13.433 --> 13:29.500\n改善我們的檢查方式用科技的方式來做監督檢查跟我們的同仁久任的部分可以鼓勵從不同面向來做展開啦跟他們生鮮汁及那個植奶的發展受限有沒有關係跟委員報告確實我們這一群大概一千多人所以\n\n13:30.680 --> 13:44.805\n就是從地方檢察機構檢察員科長到檢察機構的處長到治安署可能組長副署長到組長我們在這個圈子就是這樣子所以民間的科技廠哇我們去當安全管理師管理員就非常機會就非常大但是我還認為說我們這是對\n\n13:47.646 --> 14:02.727\n對企業有幫助對事業有幫助的一個工作我們是期待說不管是成就上或者說是生意上我們再做更多的有沒有很大的改善空間嘛好比說爭取為正式的能源編制還是怎樣去改善這樣的一個環境\n\n14:03.308 --> 14:31.533\n跟劉仁說我們其實也有希望盡量來跟人中來爭取高高人人的編制但是現在在我上任之後其實我們也提出一個勞檢人專業能力以及工作支持的提升方案那希望透過更多的智慧化或者是增加大家專業化的方式來支撐勞檢人讓勞檢人就以他的這個工作為榮那之前其實我們也爭取到其實每個月有5000塊或3000塊的這個風險的加急工作的加急那\n\n14:32.473 --> 14:56.813\n沒有錯現在勞警員的留任或我們要想辦法留住他們的專業這部分還是有待改善的空間這也是為什麼我們要提出這些勞警員的支持方案因為我到部裡面發現其實勞警員其實要面對很多事業單位的壓力其實這也是他們為什麼其實常常容易想要離職或者想要轉職一個很重要的原因所以我們怎麼樣給他們尊嚴跟包括在專業上面去全力的支持他們這是我們非常重視的事情\n\n14:57.216 --> 15:11.993\n我要特別提到這個勞檢人員並非是正式的公務人員他在勞檢的場域過程裡面在執行相關的業務有視瓦性的問題\n\n15:14.309 --> 15:26.319\n好來請署長報告其實我們有大部分的檢討員是高考特考分發那你講的聘用的部分大概是我們勞動條件檢查人大概有325個所以我們聘用條例聘用了但聘用的部分也是經過我們\n\n15:28.359 --> 15:47.547\n訓練考核跟年度的考機的審核所以他們工作表現我們做比較上位一些了解所以我們當然希望JP的聘用檢查員他有聘用檢查員升到聘用視察的聘用專業的聘用視察我們連那個他升升現在這系列我們考慮到了所以我們現在反而是聘用檢查員的流動率沒有相對的\n\n15:48.467 --> 16:02.912\n高太多但是專業的部分有能力的人一定會挖走這個其實是我們公務機關不是只有這個演藍園的這個會有這樣的情況其實很多公務機關專業人士很容易被民間挖走這是看起來是這整體面向的問題啦所以\n\n16:05.093 --> 16:21.839\n但是我要跟委員說當然民間或者是產業都會有這樣人力的需求但我們部裡面還是會全力做的是把勞檢員的待遇包括專業跟支持提升我覺得這還是不管外界的吸力有多大但這部分我們還是會全力來做\n\n16:22.399 --> 16:47.147\n所以像任總繼續爭取嘛然後他的升遷然後他的發展我想這個應該還是要請部長跟署長多費一點心思來看怎麼處理好不好是不是可以一個月內給我們一個你們要整體的這樣的改善提升的計畫把這些人可以好好的留住保衛起作用計畫給我們做參考好謝謝好謝謝主席好謝謝下一位我們請陳培宇委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":20.013,"end":30.3,"text":"好 謝謝主席現在還不到12點 已經在發送便當了"},{"start":32.416,"end":41.552,"text":"是不是部長因為從委員當部長瘦了瘦很多然後還是部長要靠藥"},{"start":43.072,"end":69.933,"text":"因為剛剛有蘇青委員特別講的因為蘇醫師是蘇青也是醫師嘛所以我是覺得今天部長創造很多的關鍵字延節瘦了 靠藥然後行政院是胖子行政院是胖子所以行政院的預算特別多所以要瘦身把行政院比喻成胖子這有沒有歧視問題"},{"start":71.428,"end":99.174,"text":"那胖子就一定不健康嗎瘦身之後就一定會健康嗎我沒有看到部長有積極的回應部長請你上來好不好你是不是因為瘦了精神狀況有問題但這樣的比喻真的比喻有點奇怪嘛你不覺得嗎今天如果說胖子來引誉比喻行政院的這個預算的規模然後"},{"start":100.449,"end":121.798,"text":"這種邏輯是什麼?我實在不太清楚跟立委說明然後如果行政院預算是比較多然後來營育胖子那代表是胖子的脂肪比較多把行政院預算比喻胖子的脂肪然後瘦身之後會比較健康那站在行政院議員的一個部會首長"},{"start":126.162,"end":145.252,"text":"對這事情怎麼沒有做一個積極的回應我覺得這是有問題喔大總統要打造健康台灣我跟各位比喻一下啦健康兩個字這麼簡單嗎健康不需要付出成本嗎"},{"start":146.733,"end":161.278,"text":"事實上你不要顧賺錢啦,你不要顧上班啦,你身體健康要顧好啦,都用嘴說的,這樣就健康了嗎?你可不可以跟各位說,叫那些顧健康的人去顧自己,自己身體要顧到該量工啦?"},{"start":162.29,"end":190.706,"text":"所以健康是要付出成本的嘛對不對是當你勞動部增加預算的時候比往前年度增加預算的時候我有沒有聽到你們講出為什麼你比往前年度增加這些預算那你增加這些預算是要做什麼現在部長到任如果相關預算的增加有相關的正式對勞工有利對勞工是正面的我們被刪了我們被動了我們就應該去捍衛我們就該講得清清楚楚啊"},{"start":191.892,"end":216.372,"text":"怎麼人家以綠行政的預算增加了變胖了他就必須要該瘦身這樣會比較健康怎麼沒有聽到你們去做相關的應該去捍衛去表達你們要執行的這個預算的正當性而且不應該被草率的被刪被凍啊況且說被凍一定可以解凍誰說的算"},{"start":218.402,"end":225.278,"text":"誰說的算然後要你們提出相關的追加減你們不提出那你們的回應是什麼"},{"start":226.824,"end":252.717,"text":"當然透過互議是一個行政的各部會大家一起來不需要分辨別的在各個委員會來做這樣的事情處理但是另外一個反之當你真的有相關的政事你必須要去推動的時候你當然在委員會委員會是委員會主義啊你要去捍衛啊你要講啊你如果國民黨召委願意讓我們快速的排進我當然我這個部會我先來發動啊"},{"start":254.107,"end":264.372,"text":"那蔣同委員你要不要負責?你要不要協助?你要不要處理?你要不要回到你們黨團?確定之後你才在這個委員會講說你們為什麼不送來?但我沒聽到你們幾天回應這個事情啊我沒聽到你們講這個慷慨啊我會覺得我們在地方聽到很多人民百姓看到預算被刪的如此的離譜"},{"start":283.117,"end":298.786,"text":"看到昨天監察院的副院長以前親民黨重要的份子李鴻鈞副座都已經出來講了連監察院都已經動彈不得了甚至很多監察人員都必須從口袋掏錢出來才有辦法應付一般的相關事務啊都要出來講話啊都要遇到啊立法院是一個定制度的地方啊"},{"start":309.929,"end":316.293,"text":"但是一直在破壞制度這國家怎麼會正常立法院不正常 台灣怎麼會正常那我希望官員要正常一點吧官員要如何正常新北市在勞動部勞發署發生了霸凌的時候新北市的勞動局跑來勞發署要勞檢可以嗎可以嗎"},{"start":336.721,"end":349.068,"text":"老幫手怎麼回應老幫手怎麼處理昨天台北市的勞動局跑來立法院勞檢某個委員的辦公室可以嗎當然有霸凌的事件當然有什麼樣奇怪的事件我覺得我樂觀其成但是勞檢完之後"},{"start":360.612,"end":375.326,"text":"他到底要對誰做出相關的這些處分是針對立法院還是針對那個委員因為立法院的錢這個助理的薪資是從立法院撥下去的不然這兩件事情你簡單對我做一個回應好不好好 第一個事情是"},{"start":385.598,"end":400.875,"text":"那個我們沒有辦法接受把行政院預算的增加形容成胖子行政院為什麼他的預算的增加是因為這幾年我們的經濟成長包括稅收的增加也包括我們想要做的事情增加"},{"start":401.556,"end":421.345,"text":"包括剛才在講到的健康台灣或者是想要照顧的人民相關的權益增加我們也覺得現在是有財政餘力來做這件事情才增加並不是只要增加就會形容成胖子就該瘦身沒有這件事情因為現在很多地方政府其實他們的預算也是增加的但並不會因為說你只要預算增加就一定必須被砍這個在剛剛的時候其實我有說"},{"start":425.39,"end":439.219,"text":"這個預算的審查最重要的事情其實是要看科目你的三檢跟監督到底有沒有道理不是只要這個預算增加就必須要看我想這部分沒有辦法接受這是第一點第二點是關於剛剛委員說剛剛委員提到說這個相關的勞檢單位我們剛剛其實有說明"},{"start":446.763,"end":461.368,"text":"我認為其實應該要在兼顧這個我們勞檢要執行的精神跟尊重立法院的這兩個目的之下我們願意來跟立法院討論這些相關的機制包括假設如果要做檢查的機制的話該怎麼進行"},{"start":463.308,"end":489.536,"text":"前面那段剛剛部長也有答覆我也有在主持我有聽到但是我還是覺得力道跟強度部長應該可以再加強這第一點那第二點我特別剛剛會引譽當時的新北市勞動局對勞發署發動這個勞檢然後昨天又有這個台北市的勞工局來對立院的這個國會辦公室來做勞檢基本上我們也在反對但是權責勒權責勒"},{"start":493.309,"end":505.463,"text":"我要強調的是全職就像2016年2016年在立法院就發生讓議事人員不斷電的情況之下有過勞送醫的案例北市勞動局當時就到我們立法院來要做勞遣"},{"start":506.328,"end":525.936,"text":"但是另外一個意思就是說不適合啊不適用勞基華嘛對不對好今天才七天假啦我又有聽到部長的講的一段話畢竟你是行政院的議員所以當然主管機關是在內政部那你朝向可以正向的來做討論嘛這很好我們勞工有職安法"},{"start":526.656,"end":538.579,"text":"那工人員有什麼話2012年發生了一次我們在今年1月21號又發生了一次從凌晨5點24分的畫面各位可以看一下1月20號開會這全部都是工人員我們未還我們未還這一組又是最後的一定要等到5點應該是可能12點就要stand by了可能進早然後等到5點24分他們才可以"},{"start":553.752,"end":578.172,"text":"等個議會時間ending完之後他們才可以離開然後離開完之後這已經足足幾個小時你可以看的齁足足從1月23號的10點開會到1月5點40分休息然後1月21號的1點又馬上開會這個中間沒有包含打卡沒有包含休息沒有包含事後的相關資料的準備事前的資料準備然後又馬上接續開會我覺得我覺得"},{"start":582.694,"end":606.767,"text":"我要請部長,因為我們職安法算是完善,但是公務人員他可能是什麼法律來做規範?就是這個公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法,簡稱安慰法,我們簡稱職安法。安慰辦法。對,但我們是法律嘛,他們是辦法。奇怪,對公務人員怎麼用這樣在處理?部長你有什麼看法?"},{"start":608.737,"end":631.506,"text":"現在確實是大家會有一些討論說公務員要不要適用治安法的問題在這個議題上面我們幾次的也跟考試院這邊去做確認確實現在考試院還是希望是來修訂他們的公務員保障法還有安慰辦法來去做公務員相關權益的保障"},{"start":631.946,"end":655.451,"text":"目前他們還是是希望用他們的這些法制的體系來去保障那就勞動部的角度來說所以也是在這狀況之下但我們現在主要責任法的修訂包括職場霸凌的專章還是真的一般職場的勞工但是這段這幾個月的時間我們也持續的跟考試院這邊在做意見的交換尤其是一些針對辦"},{"start":656.291,"end":669.65,"text":"包括霸凌認定啊包括霸凌相關機制處理我們也跟他們持續在討論之中可是目前他們確實還是認為公務員有一套公務員自己的法規的體系所以他們還是修保障法跟安慰辦法"},{"start":670.765,"end":695.941,"text":"我這邊有一個資料給部長做參考我是期待說就部長以處理七天假的角度看怎麼來協助這個事情保訓院現在在研裏要將安二法提升為法的位階做得到做不到還是一件事情但是他們目前研裏的方向是未來的上級單位每年至少一次對下級進行職業安全衛生檢查我想站在你們的專業你覺得這樣有嚇阻作用嗎要對立法院"},{"start":698.899,"end":726.626,"text":"然後找哪個上級來對這個立法院來做檢查他們可能指的比較不是立法院他們指的應該是政府各個機關或機構啦尤其是有上級機關的機關或機構我現在就比喻立法院開會這種情況在這種樣態的情況之下要怎麼處理說實話這部分當然我們還是要去跟考試院來做來做這部分要跟考試院做討論啦但是確實在立法院裡面其實並不是都是公務員"},{"start":728.24,"end":752.151,"text":"就是立法院裡面其實也有是有些是一般的勞工是沒有錯沒有錯但是多數是公務員是對不對對按比例來講嘛對啊那我說因為現在考試院在修訂公園保障法跟安慰辦法過程其實他們有找我們跟他們持續的討論因為在職安衛的專業上面確實是在我們職安署這邊是有過去比較多這樣子的專業所以我們提供這樣的專業給他們去做參考"},{"start":754.931,"end":769.84,"text":"這個是請部長來協助另外可能要請部長趕快來做相關的因應我們自己的這個勞警員有1033位的編制對不對但到目前為止好像一直空缺100多位就是一至兩成都沒辦法補足"},{"start":771.76,"end":791.912,"text":"這是主要什麼原因?就是我們現在安全衛生背景理工的同仁比較容易離職那在離職部分當然產業科技的發展確實需要比較高科技的人或是有專業的人所以我們一直希望說能夠讓檢查員能夠支持久任留用所以我們部長也特別支持我們目前希望從"},{"start":793.433,"end":809.5,"text":"改善我們的檢查方式用科技的方式來做監督檢查跟我們的同仁久任的部分可以鼓勵從不同面向來做展開啦跟他們生鮮汁及那個植奶的發展受限有沒有關係跟委員報告確實我們這一群大概一千多人所以"},{"start":810.68,"end":824.805,"text":"就是從地方檢察機構檢察員科長到檢察機構的處長到治安署可能組長副署長到組長我們在這個圈子就是這樣子所以民間的科技廠哇我們去當安全管理師管理員就非常機會就非常大但是我還認為說我們這是對"},{"start":827.646,"end":842.727,"text":"對企業有幫助對事業有幫助的一個工作我們是期待說不管是成就上或者說是生意上我們再做更多的有沒有很大的改善空間嘛好比說爭取為正式的能源編制還是怎樣去改善這樣的一個環境"},{"start":843.308,"end":871.533,"text":"跟劉仁說我們其實也有希望盡量來跟人中來爭取高高人人的編制但是現在在我上任之後其實我們也提出一個勞檢人專業能力以及工作支持的提升方案那希望透過更多的智慧化或者是增加大家專業化的方式來支撐勞檢人讓勞檢人就以他的這個工作為榮那之前其實我們也爭取到其實每個月有5000塊或3000塊的這個風險的加急工作的加急那"},{"start":872.473,"end":896.813,"text":"沒有錯 現在勞警員的留任或我們要想辦法留住他們的專業這部分還是有待改善的空間這也是為什麼我們要提出這些勞警員的支持方案因為我到部裡面發現其實勞警員其實要面對很多事業單位的壓力其實這也是他們為什麼其實常常容易想要離職或者想要轉職一個很重要的原因所以我們怎麼樣給他們尊嚴跟包括在專業上面去全力的支持他們這是我們非常重視的事情"},{"start":897.216,"end":911.993,"text":"我要特別提到這個勞檢人員並非是正式的公務人員他在勞檢的場域過程裡面在執行相關的業務有視瓦性的問題"},{"start":914.309,"end":926.319,"text":"好來請署長報告其實我們有大部分的檢討員是高考特考分發那你講的聘用的部分大概是我們勞動條件檢查人大概有325個所以我們聘用條例聘用了但聘用的部分也是經過我們"},{"start":928.359,"end":947.547,"text":"訓練考核跟年度的考機的審核所以他們工作表現我們做比較上位一些了解所以我們當然希望JP的聘用檢查員他有聘用檢查員升到聘用視察的聘用專業的聘用視察我們連那個他升升現在這系列我們考慮到了所以我們現在反而是聘用檢查員的流動率沒有相對的"},{"start":948.467,"end":962.912,"text":"高太多但是專業的部分有能力的人一定會挖走這個其實是我們公務機關不是只有這個演藍園的這個會有這樣的情況其實很多公務機關專業人士很容易被民間挖走這是看起來是這整體面向的問題啦所以"},{"start":965.093,"end":981.839,"text":"但是我要跟委員說當然民間或者是產業都會有這樣人力的需求但我們部裡面還是會全力做的是把勞檢員的待遇包括專業跟支持提升我覺得這還是不管外界的吸力有多大但這部分我們還是會全力來做"},{"start":982.399,"end":1007.147,"text":"所以像任總繼續爭取嘛然後他的升遷然後他的發展我想這個應該還是要請部長跟署長多費一點心思來看怎麼處理好不好是不是可以一個月內給我們一個你們要整體的這樣的改善提升的計畫把這些人可以好好的留住保衛起作用計畫給我們做參考好謝謝好謝謝主席好謝謝下一位我們請陳培宇委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":990,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（11時49分）謝謝主席。現在還不到12點，已經在發送便當了，部長是不是因為從委員當了部長就瘦了？"],["主席（林委員淑芬代）：瘦很多。"],["劉委員建國：瘦很多，還是部長要靠藥？因為剛剛蘇清泉委員有……"],["主席：這個不能亂講。"],["劉委員建國：剛剛蘇清泉委員特別講的。"],["主席：這樣講不妥。"],["劉委員建國：因為蘇清泉也是醫師嘛！我是覺得今天部長創造很多的關鍵字連結，「瘦了」、「靠藥」，然後行政院是胖子。"],["主席：「靠腰」還是「靠藥」？"],["劉委員建國：行政院是胖子，因為行政院的預算特別多，所以要瘦身，把行政院比喻成胖子，這有沒有歧視問題？胖子就一定不健康嗎？瘦身之後就一定會健康嗎？我沒有看到部長有積極地回應欸！部長，請你上來好不好？"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["劉委員建國：你是不是因為瘦了，精神狀況有問題？不然這樣的比喻有一點奇怪嘛！你不覺得嗎？今天如果說用胖子來引喻、比喻成行政院的預算規模，這種邏輯是什麼？我實在不太清楚。"],["洪部長申翰：跟劉委員說明……"],["劉委員建國：如果行政院預算比較多，然後來引喻胖子，代表胖子的脂肪比較多，把行政院的預算比喻成胖子的脂肪，然後瘦身之後會比較健康，站在行政院的一員、一個部會首長，對這件事情怎麼沒有積極的回應？我覺得這有問題哦！"],["洪部長申翰：劉委員，第一個，我也沒辦法接受……"],["劉委員建國：賴總統要打造健康台灣，我跟各位比喻一下啦！「健康」兩個字這麼簡單嗎？健康不需要付出成本嗎？就像長輩如果告訴晚輩，你不要顧著賺錢，你不要顧著上班，你的身體健康要顧好，都用嘴巴講，這樣就會健康了嗎？你知道叫人家要顧健康的人，結果自己的身體都顧得滿「兩光」的，所以健康是要付出成本的嘛！對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：當勞動部增加預算，比往前年度增加預算的時候，我也沒有聽到你們講出為什麼你比往前年度增加這些預算，你增加這些預算是要做什麼？新的部長到任，如果有相關預算的增加，有相關的政事對勞工有利、對勞工是正面的，那麼對於預算被刪的、被凍的，我們就應該去捍衛，我們就應該講得清清楚楚啊！人家引喻行政院的預算增加了、變胖了，它就必須要瘦身，這樣會比較健康，怎麼沒有聽到你們去做相關的捍衛，去表達你們要執行預算的正當性？而且不應該草率地被刪、被凍啊！況且說被凍一定可以解凍，誰說的算？誰說的算？然後要你們提出相關的追加減，你們不提出，那你們的回應是什麼？","當然透過覆議是行政院各部會大家一起來，不需要分門別類地在各個委員會來處理這樣的事情，但是反之，當你真正有相關的政事必須要去推動的時候，你當然在委員會，委員會是委員會主義啊！你要去捍衛啊！你要講啊！如果國民黨召委願意讓我們快速地排進，當然我這一個部會我先來發動啊！那講的委員你要不要負責？你要不要協助？你要不要處理？你要不要回到你們黨團確定之後，你才在這個委員會講說你們為什麼不送來？但是我沒有聽到你們回應這些事情啊！我沒聽到你們說這些工作啊！","我覺得我們在地方聽到很多人民百姓，他們看到預算被刪得如此離譜，看到昨天監察院的副院長，以前親民黨的重要分子李鴻鈞副座都已經出來講了，連監察院都已經動彈不得，甚至很多監察委員都必須從口袋掏錢出來才有辦法應付一般的相關事務，都出來說話了，都遇到了。","立法院是一個定制度的地方，但是一直在破壞制度，這個國家怎麼會正常？立法院不正常，臺灣怎麼會正常？我希望官員要正常一點吧！官員要如何正常？新北市在勞動部勞發署發生霸凌的時候，新北市的勞動局跑來勞發署要勞檢，可以嗎？可以嗎？勞發署怎麼回應？勞發署怎麼處理？昨天臺北市的勞動局跑來立法院勞檢某個委員的辦公室，可以嗎？當然，有霸凌的事件、有什麼樣奇怪的事件，勞檢我樂觀其成，但是勞檢完之後，它到底要對誰做出相關的處分？是針對立法院，還是針對那個委員？因為是立法院的錢，同仁助理的薪資是從立法院撥下去的。部長，這兩件事情你簡單對我回應好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：好。第一件事情，委員，我們沒有辦法接受把行政院預算的增加形容成胖子，為什麼行政院的預算增加？是因為這幾年我們的經濟成長，包括稅收的增加，也包括我們想要做的事情增加，包括剛剛講到的健康台灣，或者是想要照顧的人民相關的權益增加。我們也覺得現在是有財政餘裕來做這件事情才增加，並不是只要增加就被形容成胖子就該瘦身，沒有這件事情，因為現在很多地方政府的預算也是增加的，並不會說你只要預算增加就一定必須被砍。我剛剛有說，預算審查最重要的事情其實是要看科目，你的刪減跟監督到底有沒有道理，不是只要預算增加就必須要砍，我想這部分我沒有辦法接受，這是第一點。","第二點是關於剛才委員提到相關的勞檢單位，我們剛剛其實有說明，我認為應該在兼顧我們勞檢要執行的精神跟尊重立法院這兩個目的之下，我們願意跟立法院討論相關的機制，包括如果要做檢查機制的話該怎麼進行。"],["劉委員建國：前面那一段剛剛部長有答復，因為我在主持，我有聽到，但是我還是覺得力道跟強度部長應該可以再加強，這是第一點。","第二點，我剛剛特別引喻當時的新北市勞動局對勞發署發動勞檢，然後昨天又有臺北市的勞動局來對立院的國會辦公室做勞檢，基本上我們一直在反對，但是權責咧？權責咧？我要強調的是權責，就像2016年，2016年在立法院就發生讓議事人員在不斷電的情況之下過勞送醫的案例，北市勞動局當時就到我們立法院來做勞檢，可是立法院議事人員不適用勞基法嘛！對不對？","好，現在在講7天假，我又有聽到部長講的一段話，畢竟你是行政院的一員，當然主管機關是在內政部，那你朝向可以正向地討論嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["劉委員建國：講得很好，我們勞工有職安法，公務人員有什麼法？2016年發生一次，我們在今年1月21日又發生一次，這是凌晨5點24分的畫面，各位可以看一下，從1月20日開會，這些全部都是公務人員，我們衛環這一組又是最後的，一定要等到5點，可能是12點就要stand by了，可能要儘早嘛！然後等到5點24分，他們要等議會時間ending完之後才可以離開，然後離開完之後，這已經足足幾個小時，你可以看啦！從1月20日的10點開會，到1月21日5點44分休息，然後1月21日下午1點又馬上開會，這中間沒有包含打卡，沒有包含休息，也沒有包含事後的相關資料準備、事前的資料準備，然後又馬上接續開會。","我要請部長，我們職安法算完善，但是公務人員可能是依照什麼法律作為規範？就是這一個公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法，簡稱安衛辦法，我們是簡稱職安法嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：安衛辦法。"],["劉委員建國：對，但我們是法律嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：對，我們是職安法。"],["劉委員建國：他們是辦法，奇怪咧！對公務人員怎麼是用這樣在處理？部長，你有什麼看法？"],["洪部長申翰：現在確實大家會有一些討論，說公務員要不要適用職安法的問題。在這個議題上面，我們也幾次跟考試院確認，現在考試院還是希望修訂他們的公務人員保障法及安衛辦法，去做公務員相關權益的保障，目前他們還是希望用他們這些法制的體系去保障。","就勞動部的角度來說，也是在這個狀況之下，當然我們現在主要職安法的修訂，包括職場霸凌的專章，還是針對一般職場的勞工，但是這幾個月的時間我們也持續跟考試院做意見的交換，包括霸凌認定、霸凌相關機制處理，我們也跟他們持續在討論之中，可是目前他們確實還是認為公務員有一套公務員自己的法規體系，所以他們還是修保障法及安衛辦法。"],["劉委員建國：我這邊有一個資料給部長參考，我是期待部長以處理7天假的角度，看怎麼來協助這件事情啦！保訓會現在在研議，要將安衛辦法提升為法的位階，做得到做不到還是一件事情，但是他們目前研擬的方向是，未來的上級單位每年至少一次對下級進行職業安全衛生檢查，站在你們的專業，你覺得這樣有嚇阻作用嗎？對於立法院，要找哪一個上級對立法院檢查？"],["洪部長申翰：他們可能指的比較不是立法院，他們指的應該是政府各個機關或機構。"],["劉委員建國：對，我現在就比喻嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：尤其是有上級機關的機關或機構。"],["劉委員建國：我現在就比喻像立法院開會這種情況，在這種樣態的情況之下，要怎麼處理？"],["洪部長申翰：說實話，這部分當然我們還是要去跟考試院討論，但是確實在立法院裡面，其實並不都是公務員，立法院裡面也有些是一般的勞工。"],["劉委員建國：是，沒有錯，但是多數是公務員，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是，對。"],["劉委員建國：按比例來講嘛！對啊！"],["洪部長申翰：現在考試院在修訂公務人員保障法跟安衛辦法的過程，其實他們也有找我們持續討論，因為在職安衛的專業上面，確實我們職安署過去有比較多這樣子的專業，所以我們也提供這樣的專業給他們參考。"],["劉委員建國：這件事請部長協助。","另外，可能要請部長趕快做相關的因應，我們自己的勞檢員有1,033位的編制嘛！對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["劉委員建國：但到目前為止，好像一直空缺一百多位，就是一至兩成都沒有辦法補足，主要是什麼原因？簡單就好，時間到了。"],["鄒署長子廉：我們現在安全衛生背景的理工同仁比較容易離職，在離職的部分，當然產業科技的發展確實需要比較高科技的人或是有專業的人，所以我們一直希望讓檢查員能夠久任留用，部長也特別支持我們。目前希望從改善我們的檢查方式，用科技的方式做監督檢查，以及在同仁久任的部分可以給予鼓勵，從不同面向展開。"],["劉委員建國：與他們的升遷及職涯的發展受限有沒有關係？"],["鄒署長子廉：確實，我們這一群大概一千多人，從地方檢查機構的檢查員、科長到檢查機構的處長，到職安署可能組長、副署長到署長，我們在這個圈子裡面就是這樣，所以民間的科技廠挖我們去當安全管理師、管理員的機會就非常大，但是我還是認為我們這個是對企業有幫助、對事業有幫助的一個工作，我們期待不管是成就上或者是升遷上，我們再做更多的爭取……"],["劉委員建國：署長，有沒有很大的改善空間？好比說爭取為正式的人員編制，還是怎樣去改善這樣的環境？"],["洪部長申翰：跟劉委員說明，我們也希望儘量向人總來爭取，包括人員的編制。現在在我上任之後，其實我們也提出一個勞檢員專業能力以及工作支持的提升方案，希望透過更多的智慧化，或者是增加大家專業化的方式來支撐勞檢員，讓勞檢員以他的工作為榮。之前其實我們也爭取到每個月有5,000塊或3,000塊的風險加給，工作的加給。","沒有錯，現在勞檢員的留任或我們怎樣想辦法留住他們的專業，這部分還是有待改善的空間，這也是為什麼我們要提出這些勞檢員的支持方案，因為我到部裡面發現，其實勞檢員要面對很多事業單位的壓力，這也是他們為什麼常常容易想要離職或者想要轉職一個很重要的原因，所以我們怎麼樣給他們尊嚴，包括在專業上面全力地去支持他們，這是我們非常重視的事情。"],["劉委員建國：我要特別提到，這一個勞檢人員並非是正式的公務人員。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：好，他在勞檢的場域、過程裡面，在執行相關的業務，有適法性的問題。來，請署長解釋，請說。"],["鄒署長子廉：其實我們大部分的檢查員是高考、特考分發，至於您講的聘用部分，我們勞動條件檢查員大概有325個，是由我們聘用人員條例聘用的，但是聘用的部分也是經過訓練、考核跟年度考績的審核，所以他們的工作表現我們會做比較上位的一些瞭解。","我們當然希望這一批聘用檢查員由聘用檢查員升到聘用專員，再到聘用視察，我們連他升遷的序列也考慮到了，所以現在反而是聘用檢查員的流動率沒有相對高太多。但是專業的部分，有能力的人一定被挖走，其實我們公務機關不是只有檢查員會有這樣的情況，很多公務機關的專業人士很容易被民間挖走，這個看起來是整體面向的問題啦！"],["劉委員建國：所以……"],["洪部長申翰：但是我要跟委員說，當然民間或者是產業都會有這樣的人力需求，不過我們部裡面還是會全力做的是，把勞檢員的待遇，包括專業跟支持提升，不管外界的吸力有多大，這部分我們還是會全力來做。"],["劉委員建國：所以向人總繼續爭取嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["劉委員建國：然後他的升遷，還有職涯的發展，我想這個還是要請部長跟署長多費一點心思來看怎麼處理，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：是，好。"],["劉委員建國：是不是可以一個月內給我們一個整體改善提升的計畫？把這些人好好地留住，發揮其作用。"],["洪部長申翰：沒問題。"],["劉委員建國：那個計畫給我們參考。"],["洪部長申翰：沒問題，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":285,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算決議有關勞動部預算凍結報告案 19案；二、邀請\n勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預\n算關於勞動部主管部分","agenda_id":"1142901_00005"}}}