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00:01:14,709\n對無人機的一個反制所以這個反制可能就包括要徵收你要找無人機來第二個就是說徵收到了你要怎麼把無人機就是要怎麼去防止它再繼續接近有軟砂跟硬砂對軟砂跟硬砂所以要防止無人機但是無人機我們知道事實上還是有很多科技他們也都是在進步所以就是說無人機為了防止說我們之前說要用電波\n\n4\n00:01:15,399 --> 00:01:31,877\n用更強的頻率把無人機讓它失去控制讓它失去了遠端的控制但是他們也發展出我用光纖的我現在無人機我只要來駕一條線\n\n5\n00:01:33,988 --> 00:01:50,130\n就是說他也有用這種,也有用AI他直接去了,他就變任務型的無人機,他自己辨別所以我們在做反制無人機的時候,是不是也要有相對應針對這一些不同的,然後我們要有不同的一些反制的作為\n\n6\n00:01:51,639 --> 00:02:09,281\n跟委員報告,我大概大致上說明一下,詳細部他們可以再做細部的說明大概這樣就是說,無人機的反制,剛剛已經講了,混成軟煞跟硬煞那無人機呢,它又有各型的無人機,有的無人機是比較昂貴的無人機,比如說\n\n7\n00:02:10,282 --> 00:02:36,360\n像美國這種MQ-9B這種一架它就要一億多美金這樣的穩無人機那也有一種是非常小型的無人機那你這種不同的無人機的應對它的反制你要有不同的思維我比如舉個例子伊朗它發射那個Shahid這樣的一個低成本的無人機那以色列為了要反制它那發揮了這個它的鐵穹系統可是它的\n\n8\n00:02:36,860 --> 00:03:01,320\n它的成本可能高過於它這個狹黑的整個發射過來的十倍那你這樣子你說你用一個高的一個飛濫的防禦系統去應對它的低價的這個無人機那這個就是我們要思考在我們這個面對國土防衛作戰的時候我們如何來去思考\n\n9\n00:03:02,486 --> 00:03:22,673\n共軍他可能運用無人機的作戰模式那我們要如何用一個有效的方式來進行這個無人機的反制我們不可能拿一個造價可能昂貴的比如說隨便講說雄三雄二去應對他的那個一二三型的無人機那這樣的話那我們一下飛彈就被他消耗光了\n\n10\n00:03:23,133 --> 00:03:38,171\n所以這個的時候會有很多這種對於無人機的反制它不斷地現在無人機也不斷地在進步那反制無人機的技術也不斷地在進步這個包括了包括甚至已經講到雷射的可能性\n\n11\n00:03:39,572 --> 00:04:03,201\n還有用低成本的這種類似用無人機反制無人機的這種可能性那也有可能當然運用一些軟砂的手段來進行干擾這些我想都是在我們應該要研討的範圍之內那這一塊的部分呢這個是大家正在大家都在加強啦所以我延續你剛才講的事實上\n\n12\n00:04:05,422 --> 00:04:22,037\n我要強調的就是這個重點就是說我們在反制無人機我們第一個就是我們的反制成本要下降反制成本要下降的話可能就是說如果剛剛講到的用小型無人機來做反制那我們就要有更多的小型無人機\n\n13\n00:04:23,479 --> 00:04:35,306\n我們必須要有一個一定的數量就是說對方如果用這個群峰的無人機來的時候我們是不是有更多小型無人機低成本的然後可以去做數量上然後去阻擋我們的無人機自己去阻擋\n\n14\n00:04:39,268 --> 00:05:04,960\n所以我的意思是說那這些都是需要產業的投入所以我們是不是在軍備局我們應該要跟很多開始一些無人機的廠商然後請他們去投入類似這樣反制無人機然後把數量衝出來然後我們要有一定的數量事實上這些廠商就是需要我們國防部要去做他們背後的一個支撐那是不是這部分要請部長\n\n15\n00:05:07,333 --> 00:05:34,626\n對對跟委員報告我想中科院也好或者軍備局也好那我們現在最主要跟坦白講也跟美方的技術合作也好我們目標都是在於之後不管是無人機或者反制無人機這個部分我們都要想辦法如果您講的用無人機反制無人機那或者無人機本身它也有可能各種各款的無人機有的是低成本的有的比較高成本\n\n16\n00:05:35,066 --> 00:06:03,964\n有的是距離比較短的有的是打反裝甲的有的是打箭的那這些相關的這些部分我們都要主要主要主要要建立一個國防自主的產能因為要建構一個國防自主產能在一旦有戰時的時候我們才有辦法因為無人機的消耗量是相當大的在烏克戰爭就可以看得出來所以烏克蘭已經建立了一個自存量能它每個月要生產的架數是幾萬架以上\n\n17\n00:06:04,604 --> 00:06:31,107\n所以我們也要建立這樣的產能這是我們最重要的一個核心那這個部分要跟這個民間的力量做結合所以這個部分是軍民要做整合那中科院也現在要釋出這些相關他已經發展出來的一些這些關鍵性的技術那他把它釋出讓民間可以來生產\n\n18\n00:06:33,249 --> 00:06:56,959\n這樣子的一個自主能量產生透過我們軍方本來研發能量再加上民間他們創新的能量一起做結合這樣子的無人機的自主產能才能夠建構出來部長所以現在事實上我要強調就是產量的問題就是說如果我們認為說一個技術是可以成熟可以量產事實上我們現在整個民間他們投入無人機的研發他們就是卡在\n\n19\n00:06:57,555 --> 00:07:17,369\n他們的善用不夠,善用不夠就會涉及到接下來他們整個空間這個我也跟委員特別報告一下,這個就是涉及到說一方面是我們軍方的採購的量能有一定的極限那我們可能也要,因為無人機發展也是迭代發展,所以我們要細水長流,剛剛中委員提到細水長流\n\n20\n00:07:18,169 --> 00:07:37,687\n那另外當然就是說其他各部會的無人機的運用也要能夠發展出來那我們現在已經請中間做一個軍民共用的一個共版的一個規格那只要這些民用的無人機一旦到了戰時我們再改裝加上一些軟體然後加上一些火攻的\n\n21\n00:07:39,029 --> 00:08:08,208\n我們就可以成為一個軍用的這是第二個第三個就是我們要打入國際的供應鏈我想這個部分美方也特別的重視也就是說美方要建構是一個去紅化的供應鏈那去紅化之後就要結合各個國家的一個優勢然後把將這個優勢發揮那我們如果能夠打入這個國際供應鏈規模才能夠起的來我們不一定要造整機可是我們如果有一些關鍵的技術我們把這些關鍵的技術跟另外的國家做結合\n\n22\n00:08:08,728 --> 00:08:36,391\n那這樣的話我們這些關鍵引擎組件就有一定的在國際供應量就有一定的一個規模量那這個公司就願意去投入然後又願意更研發然後再更精進所以這些都已經是在進行事當中事實上現在很多國家都已經過來都來進行這些無人機跟反制無人機的這些大家共同來合作\n\n23\n00:08:37,253 --> 00:08:38,362\n那國防部這邊就再繼續努力\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n969\t14175\t謝謝主席那我們是有請部長以及我們軍備局局長以及我們國家中山科學研究院的副院長有請局長副院長好\n17962\t44642\t部長我們知道從烏俄戰爭的借鑒我們知道無人機大概就是未來如果真的有發生戰事的時候無人機幾乎是整個在戰線中會變得越來越重要所以我們在思考無人機的產業的時候就是說我們國軍怎麼佈建無人機的時候我覺得還有一塊是很重要的就是怎麼反制無人機\n46299\t74709\t對無人機的一個反制所以這個反制可能就包括要徵收你要找無人機來第二個就是說徵收到了你要怎麼把無人機就是要怎麼去防止它再繼續接近有軟砂跟硬砂對 軟砂跟硬砂所以要防止無人機但是無人機我們知道事實上還是有很多科技他們也都是在進步所以就是說無人機為了防止說我們之前說要用電波\n75399\t91877\t用更強的頻率把無人機讓它失去控制讓它失去了遠端的控制但是他們也發展出我用光纖的我現在無人機我只要來駕一條線\n93988\t110130\t就是說他也有用這種,也有用AI他直接去了,他就變任務型的無人機,他自己辨別所以我們在做反制無人機的時候,是不是也要有相對應針對這一些不同的,然後我們要有不同的一些反制的作為\n111639\t129281\t跟委員報告,我大概大致上說明一下,詳細部他們可以再做細部的說明大概這樣就是說,無人機的反制,剛剛已經講了,混成軟煞跟硬煞那無人機呢,它又有各型的無人機,有的無人機是比較昂貴的無人機,比如說\n130282\t156360\t像美國這種MQ-9B這種一架它就要一億多美金這樣的穩無人機那也有一種是非常小型的無人機那你這種不同的無人機的應對它的反制你要有不同的思維我比如舉個例子伊朗它發射那個Shahid這樣的一個低成本的無人機那以色列為了要反制它那發揮了這個它的鐵穹系統可是它的\n156860\t181320\t它的成本可能高過於它這個狹黑的整個發射過來的十倍那你這樣子 你說你用一個高的一個飛濫的防禦系統去應對它的低價的這個無人機那這個就是我們要思考在我們這個面對國土防衛作戰的時候我們如何來去思考\n182486\t202673\t共軍他可能運用無人機的作戰模式那我們要如何用一個有效的方式來進行這個無人機的反制我們不可能拿一個造價可能昂貴的比如說隨便講說雄三雄二去應對他的那個一二三型的無人機那這樣的話那我們一下飛彈就被他消耗光了\n203133\t218171\t所以這個的時候會有很多這種對於無人機的反制它不斷地 現在無人機也不斷地在進步那反制無人機的技術也不斷地在進步這個包括了包括甚至已經講到雷射的可能性\n219572\t243201\t還有用低成本的這種類似用無人機反制無人機的這種可能性那也有可能當然運用一些軟砂的手段來進行干擾這些我想都是在我們應該要研討的範圍之內那這一塊的部分呢這個是大家正在大家都在加強啦所以我延續你剛才講的事實上\n245422\t262037\t我要強調的就是這個重點就是說我們在反制無人機我們第一個就是我們的反制成本要下降反制成本要下降的話可能就是說如果剛剛講到的用小型無人機來做反制那我們就要有更多的小型無人機\n263479\t275306\t我們必須要有一個一定的數量就是說對方如果用這個群峰的無人機來的時候我們是不是有更多小型無人機低成本的然後可以去做數量上然後去阻擋我們的無人機自己去阻擋\n279268\t304960\t所以我的意思是說那這些都是需要產業的投入所以我們是不是在軍備局我們應該要跟很多開始一些無人機的廠商然後請他們去投入類似這樣反制無人機然後把數量衝出來然後我們要有一定的數量事實上這些廠商就是需要我們國防部要去做他們背後的一個支撐那是不是這部分要請部長\n307333\t334626\t對對跟委員報告我想中科院也好或者軍備局也好那我們現在最主要跟坦白講也跟美方的技術合作也好我們目標都是在於之後不管是無人機或者反制無人機這個部分我們都要想辦法如果您講的用無人機反制無人機那或者無人機本身它也有可能各種各款的無人機有的是低成本的有的比較高成本\n335066\t363964\t有的是距離比較短的有的是打反裝甲的有的是打箭的那這些相關的這些部分我們都要主要主要主要要建立一個國防自主的產能因為要建構一個國防自主產能在一旦有戰時的時候我們才有辦法因為無人機的消耗量是相當大的在烏克戰爭就可以看得出來所以烏克蘭已經建立了一個自存量能它每個月要生產的架數是幾萬架以上\n364604\t391107\t所以我們也要建立這樣的產能這是我們最重要的一個核心那這個部分要跟這個民間的力量做結合所以這個部分是軍民要做整合那中科院也現在要釋出這些相關他已經發展出來的一些這些關鍵性的技術那他把它釋出讓民間可以來生產\n393249\t416959\t這樣子的一個自主能量產生透過我們軍方本來研發能量再加上民間他們創新的能量一起做結合這樣子的無人機的自主產能才能夠建構出來部長所以現在事實上我要強調就是產量的問題就是說如果我們認為說一個技術是可以成熟可以量產事實上我們現在整個民間他們投入無人機的研發他們就是卡在\n417555\t437369\t他們的善用不夠,善用不夠就會涉及到接下來他們整個空間這個我也跟委員特別報告一下,這個就是涉及到說一方面是我們軍方的採購的量能有一定的極限那我們可能也要,因為無人機發展也是迭代發展,所以我們要細水長流,剛剛中委員提到細水長流\n438169\t457687\t那另外當然就是說其他各部會的無人機的運用也要能夠發展出來那我們現在已經請中間做一個軍民共用的一個共版的一個規格那只要這些民用的無人機一旦到了戰時我們再改裝加上一些軟體然後加上一些火攻的\n459029\t488208\t我們就可以成為一個軍用的這是第二個第三個就是我們要打入國際的供應鏈我想這個部分美方也特別的重視也就是說美方要建構是一個去紅化的供應鏈那去紅化之後就要結合各個國家的一個優勢然後把將這個優勢發揮那我們如果能夠打入這個國際供應鏈規模才能夠起的來我們不一定要造整機可是我們如果有一些關鍵的技術我們把這些關鍵的技術跟另外的國家做結合\n488728\t516391\t那這樣的話我們這些關鍵引擎組件就有一定的在國際供應量就有一定的一個規模量那這個公司就願意去投入然後又願意更研發然後再更精進所以這些都已經是在進行事當中事實上現在很多國家都已經過來都來進行這些無人機跟反制無人機的這些大家共同來合作\n517253\t518362\t那國防部這邊就再繼續努力\n","txt":"謝謝主席那我們是有請部長以及我們軍備局局長以及我們國家中山科學研究院的副院長有請局長副院長好\n部長我們知道從烏俄戰爭的借鑒我們知道無人機大概就是未來如果真的有發生戰事的時候無人機幾乎是整個在戰線中會變得越來越重要所以我們在思考無人機的產業的時候就是說我們國軍怎麼佈建無人機的時候我覺得還有一塊是很重要的就是怎麼反制無人機\n對無人機的一個反制所以這個反制可能就包括要徵收你要找無人機來第二個就是說徵收到了你要怎麼把無人機就是要怎麼去防止它再繼續接近有軟砂跟硬砂對 軟砂跟硬砂所以要防止無人機但是無人機我們知道事實上還是有很多科技他們也都是在進步所以就是說無人機為了防止說我們之前說要用電波\n用更強的頻率把無人機讓它失去控制讓它失去了遠端的控制但是他們也發展出我用光纖的我現在無人機我只要來駕一條線\n就是說他也有用這種,也有用AI他直接去了,他就變任務型的無人機,他自己辨別所以我們在做反制無人機的時候,是不是也要有相對應針對這一些不同的,然後我們要有不同的一些反制的作為\n跟委員報告,我大概大致上說明一下,詳細部他們可以再做細部的說明大概這樣就是說,無人機的反制,剛剛已經講了,混成軟煞跟硬煞那無人機呢,它又有各型的無人機,有的無人機是比較昂貴的無人機,比如說\n像美國這種MQ-9B這種一架它就要一億多美金這樣的穩無人機那也有一種是非常小型的無人機那你這種不同的無人機的應對它的反制你要有不同的思維我比如舉個例子伊朗它發射那個Shahid這樣的一個低成本的無人機那以色列為了要反制它那發揮了這個它的鐵穹系統可是它的\n它的成本可能高過於它這個狹黑的整個發射過來的十倍那你這樣子 你說你用一個高的一個飛濫的防禦系統去應對它的低價的這個無人機那這個就是我們要思考在我們這個面對國土防衛作戰的時候我們如何來去思考\n共軍他可能運用無人機的作戰模式那我們要如何用一個有效的方式來進行這個無人機的反制我們不可能拿一個造價可能昂貴的比如說隨便講說雄三雄二去應對他的那個一二三型的無人機那這樣的話那我們一下飛彈就被他消耗光了\n所以這個的時候會有很多這種對於無人機的反制它不斷地 現在無人機也不斷地在進步那反制無人機的技術也不斷地在進步這個包括了包括甚至已經講到雷射的可能性\n還有用低成本的這種類似用無人機反制無人機的這種可能性那也有可能當然運用一些軟砂的手段來進行干擾這些我想都是在我們應該要研討的範圍之內那這一塊的部分呢這個是大家正在大家都在加強啦所以我延續你剛才講的事實上\n我要強調的就是這個重點就是說我們在反制無人機我們第一個就是我們的反制成本要下降反制成本要下降的話可能就是說如果剛剛講到的用小型無人機來做反制那我們就要有更多的小型無人機\n我們必須要有一個一定的數量就是說對方如果用這個群峰的無人機來的時候我們是不是有更多小型無人機低成本的然後可以去做數量上然後去阻擋我們的無人機自己去阻擋\n所以我的意思是說那這些都是需要產業的投入所以我們是不是在軍備局我們應該要跟很多開始一些無人機的廠商然後請他們去投入類似這樣反制無人機然後把數量衝出來然後我們要有一定的數量事實上這些廠商就是需要我們國防部要去做他們背後的一個支撐那是不是這部分要請部長\n對對跟委員報告我想中科院也好或者軍備局也好那我們現在最主要跟坦白講也跟美方的技術合作也好我們目標都是在於之後不管是無人機或者反制無人機這個部分我們都要想辦法如果您講的用無人機反制無人機那或者無人機本身它也有可能各種各款的無人機有的是低成本的有的比較高成本\n有的是距離比較短的有的是打反裝甲的有的是打箭的那這些相關的這些部分我們都要主要主要主要要建立一個國防自主的產能因為要建構一個國防自主產能在一旦有戰時的時候我們才有辦法因為無人機的消耗量是相當大的在烏克戰爭就可以看得出來所以烏克蘭已經建立了一個自存量能它每個月要生產的架數是幾萬架以上\n所以我們也要建立這樣的產能這是我們最重要的一個核心那這個部分要跟這個民間的力量做結合所以這個部分是軍民要做整合那中科院也現在要釋出這些相關他已經發展出來的一些這些關鍵性的技術那他把它釋出讓民間可以來生產\n這樣子的一個自主能量產生透過我們軍方本來研發能量再加上民間他們創新的能量一起做結合這樣子的無人機的自主產能才能夠建構出來部長所以現在事實上我要強調就是產量的問題就是說如果我們認為說一個技術是可以成熟可以量產事實上我們現在整個民間他們投入無人機的研發他們就是卡在\n他們的善用不夠,善用不夠就會涉及到接下來他們整個空間這個我也跟委員特別報告一下,這個就是涉及到說一方面是我們軍方的採購的量能有一定的極限那我們可能也要,因為無人機發展也是迭代發展,所以我們要細水長流,剛剛中委員提到細水長流\n那另外當然就是說其他各部會的無人機的運用也要能夠發展出來那我們現在已經請中間做一個軍民共用的一個共版的一個規格那只要這些民用的無人機一旦到了戰時我們再改裝加上一些軟體然後加上一些火攻的\n我們就可以成為一個軍用的這是第二個第三個就是我們要打入國際的供應鏈我想這個部分美方也特別的重視也就是說美方要建構是一個去紅化的供應鏈那去紅化之後就要結合各個國家的一個優勢然後把將這個優勢發揮那我們如果能夠打入這個國際供應鏈規模才能夠起的來我們不一定要造整機可是我們如果有一些關鍵的技術我們把這些關鍵的技術跟另外的國家做結合\n那這樣的話我們這些關鍵引擎組件就有一定的在國際供應量就有一定的一個規模量那這個公司就願意去投入然後又願意更研發然後再更精進所以這些都已經是在進行事當中事實上現在很多國家都已經過來都來進行這些無人機跟反制無人機的這些大家共同來合作\n那國防部這邊就再繼續努力\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.969 --> 00:14.175\n謝謝主席那我們是有請部長以及我們軍備局局長以及我們國家中山科學研究院的副院長有請局長副院長好\n\n00:17.962 --> 00:44.642\n部長我們知道從烏俄戰爭的借鑒我們知道無人機大概就是未來如果真的有發生戰事的時候無人機幾乎是整個在戰線中會變得越來越重要所以我們在思考無人機的產業的時候就是說我們國軍怎麼佈建無人機的時候我覺得還有一塊是很重要的就是怎麼反制無人機\n\n00:46.299 --> 01:14.709\n對無人機的一個反制所以這個反制可能就包括要徵收你要找無人機來第二個就是說徵收到了你要怎麼把無人機就是要怎麼去防止它再繼續接近有軟砂跟硬砂對軟砂跟硬砂所以要防止無人機但是無人機我們知道事實上還是有很多科技他們也都是在進步所以就是說無人機為了防止說我們之前說要用電波\n\n01:15.399 --> 01:31.877\n用更強的頻率把無人機讓它失去控制讓它失去了遠端的控制但是他們也發展出我用光纖的我現在無人機我只要來駕一條線\n\n01:33.988 --> 01:50.130\n就是說他也有用這種,也有用AI他直接去了,他就變任務型的無人機,他自己辨別所以我們在做反制無人機的時候,是不是也要有相對應針對這一些不同的,然後我們要有不同的一些反制的作為\n\n01:51.639 --> 02:09.281\n跟委員報告,我大概大致上說明一下,詳細部他們可以再做細部的說明大概這樣就是說,無人機的反制,剛剛已經講了,混成軟煞跟硬煞那無人機呢,它又有各型的無人機,有的無人機是比較昂貴的無人機,比如說\n\n02:10.282 --> 02:36.360\n像美國這種MQ-9B這種一架它就要一億多美金這樣的穩無人機那也有一種是非常小型的無人機那你這種不同的無人機的應對它的反制你要有不同的思維我比如舉個例子伊朗它發射那個Shahid這樣的一個低成本的無人機那以色列為了要反制它那發揮了這個它的鐵穹系統可是它的\n\n02:36.860 --> 03:01.320\n它的成本可能高過於它這個狹黑的整個發射過來的十倍那你這樣子你說你用一個高的一個飛濫的防禦系統去應對它的低價的這個無人機那這個就是我們要思考在我們這個面對國土防衛作戰的時候我們如何來去思考\n\n03:02.486 --> 03:22.673\n共軍他可能運用無人機的作戰模式那我們要如何用一個有效的方式來進行這個無人機的反制我們不可能拿一個造價可能昂貴的比如說隨便講說雄三雄二去應對他的那個一二三型的無人機那這樣的話那我們一下飛彈就被他消耗光了\n\n03:23.133 --> 03:38.171\n所以這個的時候會有很多這種對於無人機的反制它不斷地現在無人機也不斷地在進步那反制無人機的技術也不斷地在進步這個包括了包括甚至已經講到雷射的可能性\n\n03:39.572 --> 04:03.201\n還有用低成本的這種類似用無人機反制無人機的這種可能性那也有可能當然運用一些軟砂的手段來進行干擾這些我想都是在我們應該要研討的範圍之內那這一塊的部分呢這個是大家正在大家都在加強啦所以我延續你剛才講的事實上\n\n04:05.422 --> 04:22.037\n我要強調的就是這個重點就是說我們在反制無人機我們第一個就是我們的反制成本要下降反制成本要下降的話可能就是說如果剛剛講到的用小型無人機來做反制那我們就要有更多的小型無人機\n\n04:23.479 --> 04:35.306\n我們必須要有一個一定的數量就是說對方如果用這個群峰的無人機來的時候我們是不是有更多小型無人機低成本的然後可以去做數量上然後去阻擋我們的無人機自己去阻擋\n\n04:39.268 --> 05:04.960\n所以我的意思是說那這些都是需要產業的投入所以我們是不是在軍備局我們應該要跟很多開始一些無人機的廠商然後請他們去投入類似這樣反制無人機然後把數量衝出來然後我們要有一定的數量事實上這些廠商就是需要我們國防部要去做他們背後的一個支撐那是不是這部分要請部長\n\n05:07.333 --> 05:34.626\n對對跟委員報告我想中科院也好或者軍備局也好那我們現在最主要跟坦白講也跟美方的技術合作也好我們目標都是在於之後不管是無人機或者反制無人機這個部分我們都要想辦法如果您講的用無人機反制無人機那或者無人機本身它也有可能各種各款的無人機有的是低成本的有的比較高成本\n\n05:35.066 --> 06:03.964\n有的是距離比較短的有的是打反裝甲的有的是打箭的那這些相關的這些部分我們都要主要主要主要要建立一個國防自主的產能因為要建構一個國防自主產能在一旦有戰時的時候我們才有辦法因為無人機的消耗量是相當大的在烏克戰爭就可以看得出來所以烏克蘭已經建立了一個自存量能它每個月要生產的架數是幾萬架以上\n\n06:04.604 --> 06:31.107\n所以我們也要建立這樣的產能這是我們最重要的一個核心那這個部分要跟這個民間的力量做結合所以這個部分是軍民要做整合那中科院也現在要釋出這些相關他已經發展出來的一些這些關鍵性的技術那他把它釋出讓民間可以來生產\n\n06:33.249 --> 06:56.959\n這樣子的一個自主能量產生透過我們軍方本來研發能量再加上民間他們創新的能量一起做結合這樣子的無人機的自主產能才能夠建構出來部長所以現在事實上我要強調就是產量的問題就是說如果我們認為說一個技術是可以成熟可以量產事實上我們現在整個民間他們投入無人機的研發他們就是卡在\n\n06:57.555 --> 07:17.369\n他們的善用不夠,善用不夠就會涉及到接下來他們整個空間這個我也跟委員特別報告一下,這個就是涉及到說一方面是我們軍方的採購的量能有一定的極限那我們可能也要,因為無人機發展也是迭代發展,所以我們要細水長流,剛剛中委員提到細水長流\n\n07:18.169 --> 07:37.687\n那另外當然就是說其他各部會的無人機的運用也要能夠發展出來那我們現在已經請中間做一個軍民共用的一個共版的一個規格那只要這些民用的無人機一旦到了戰時我們再改裝加上一些軟體然後加上一些火攻的\n\n07:39.029 --> 08:08.208\n我們就可以成為一個軍用的這是第二個第三個就是我們要打入國際的供應鏈我想這個部分美方也特別的重視也就是說美方要建構是一個去紅化的供應鏈那去紅化之後就要結合各個國家的一個優勢然後把將這個優勢發揮那我們如果能夠打入這個國際供應鏈規模才能夠起的來我們不一定要造整機可是我們如果有一些關鍵的技術我們把這些關鍵的技術跟另外的國家做結合\n\n08:08.728 --> 08:36.391\n那這樣的話我們這些關鍵引擎組件就有一定的在國際供應量就有一定的一個規模量那這個公司就願意去投入然後又願意更研發然後再更精進所以這些都已經是在進行事當中事實上現在很多國家都已經過來都來進行這些無人機跟反制無人機的這些大家共同來合作\n\n08:37.253 --> 08:38.362\n那國防部這邊就再繼續努力\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.969,"end":14.175,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是有請部長以及我們軍備局局長以及我們國家中山科學研究院的副院長有請局長副院長好"},{"start":17.962,"end":44.642,"text":"部長我們知道從烏俄戰爭的借鑒我們知道無人機大概就是未來如果真的有發生戰事的時候無人機幾乎是整個在戰線中會變得越來越重要所以我們在思考無人機的產業的時候就是說我們國軍怎麼佈建無人機的時候我覺得還有一塊是很重要的就是怎麼反制無人機"},{"start":46.299,"end":74.709,"text":"對無人機的一個反制所以這個反制可能就包括要徵收你要找無人機來第二個就是說徵收到了你要怎麼把無人機就是要怎麼去防止它再繼續接近有軟砂跟硬砂對 軟砂跟硬砂所以要防止無人機但是無人機我們知道事實上還是有很多科技他們也都是在進步所以就是說無人機為了防止說我們之前說要用電波"},{"start":75.399,"end":91.877,"text":"用更強的頻率把無人機讓它失去控制讓它失去了遠端的控制但是他們也發展出我用光纖的我現在無人機我只要來駕一條線"},{"start":93.988,"end":110.13,"text":"就是說他也有用這種,也有用AI他直接去了,他就變任務型的無人機,他自己辨別所以我們在做反制無人機的時候,是不是也要有相對應針對這一些不同的,然後我們要有不同的一些反制的作為"},{"start":111.639,"end":129.281,"text":"跟委員報告,我大概大致上說明一下,詳細部他們可以再做細部的說明大概這樣就是說,無人機的反制,剛剛已經講了,混成軟煞跟硬煞那無人機呢,它又有各型的無人機,有的無人機是比較昂貴的無人機,比如說"},{"start":130.282,"end":156.36,"text":"像美國這種MQ-9B這種一架它就要一億多美金這樣的穩無人機那也有一種是非常小型的無人機那你這種不同的無人機的應對它的反制你要有不同的思維我比如舉個例子伊朗它發射那個Shahid這樣的一個低成本的無人機那以色列為了要反制它那發揮了這個它的鐵穹系統可是它的"},{"start":156.86,"end":181.32,"text":"它的成本可能高過於它這個狹黑的整個發射過來的十倍那你這樣子 你說你用一個高的一個飛濫的防禦系統去應對它的低價的這個無人機那這個就是我們要思考在我們這個面對國土防衛作戰的時候我們如何來去思考"},{"start":182.486,"end":202.673,"text":"共軍他可能運用無人機的作戰模式那我們要如何用一個有效的方式來進行這個無人機的反制我們不可能拿一個造價可能昂貴的比如說隨便講說雄三雄二去應對他的那個一二三型的無人機那這樣的話那我們一下飛彈就被他消耗光了"},{"start":203.133,"end":218.171,"text":"所以這個的時候會有很多這種對於無人機的反制它不斷地 現在無人機也不斷地在進步那反制無人機的技術也不斷地在進步這個包括了包括甚至已經講到雷射的可能性"},{"start":219.572,"end":243.201,"text":"還有用低成本的這種類似用無人機反制無人機的這種可能性那也有可能當然運用一些軟砂的手段來進行干擾這些我想都是在我們應該要研討的範圍之內那這一塊的部分呢這個是大家正在大家都在加強啦所以我延續你剛才講的事實上"},{"start":245.422,"end":262.037,"text":"我要強調的就是這個重點就是說我們在反制無人機我們第一個就是我們的反制成本要下降反制成本要下降的話可能就是說如果剛剛講到的用小型無人機來做反制那我們就要有更多的小型無人機"},{"start":263.479,"end":275.306,"text":"我們必須要有一個一定的數量就是說對方如果用這個群峰的無人機來的時候我們是不是有更多小型無人機低成本的然後可以去做數量上然後去阻擋我們的無人機自己去阻擋"},{"start":279.268,"end":304.96,"text":"所以我的意思是說那這些都是需要產業的投入所以我們是不是在軍備局我們應該要跟很多開始一些無人機的廠商然後請他們去投入類似這樣反制無人機然後把數量衝出來然後我們要有一定的數量事實上這些廠商就是需要我們國防部要去做他們背後的一個支撐那是不是這部分要請部長"},{"start":307.333,"end":334.626,"text":"對對跟委員報告我想中科院也好或者軍備局也好那我們現在最主要跟坦白講也跟美方的技術合作也好我們目標都是在於之後不管是無人機或者反制無人機這個部分我們都要想辦法如果您講的用無人機反制無人機那或者無人機本身它也有可能各種各款的無人機有的是低成本的有的比較高成本"},{"start":335.066,"end":363.964,"text":"有的是距離比較短的有的是打反裝甲的有的是打箭的那這些相關的這些部分我們都要主要主要主要要建立一個國防自主的產能因為要建構一個國防自主產能在一旦有戰時的時候我們才有辦法因為無人機的消耗量是相當大的在烏克戰爭就可以看得出來所以烏克蘭已經建立了一個自存量能它每個月要生產的架數是幾萬架以上"},{"start":364.604,"end":391.107,"text":"所以我們也要建立這樣的產能這是我們最重要的一個核心那這個部分要跟這個民間的力量做結合所以這個部分是軍民要做整合那中科院也現在要釋出這些相關他已經發展出來的一些這些關鍵性的技術那他把它釋出讓民間可以來生產"},{"start":393.249,"end":416.959,"text":"這樣子的一個自主能量產生透過我們軍方本來研發能量再加上民間他們創新的能量一起做結合這樣子的無人機的自主產能才能夠建構出來部長所以現在事實上我要強調就是產量的問題就是說如果我們認為說一個技術是可以成熟可以量產事實上我們現在整個民間他們投入無人機的研發他們就是卡在"},{"start":417.555,"end":437.369,"text":"他們的善用不夠,善用不夠就會涉及到接下來他們整個空間這個我也跟委員特別報告一下,這個就是涉及到說一方面是我們軍方的採購的量能有一定的極限那我們可能也要,因為無人機發展也是迭代發展,所以我們要細水長流,剛剛中委員提到細水長流"},{"start":438.169,"end":457.687,"text":"那另外當然就是說其他各部會的無人機的運用也要能夠發展出來那我們現在已經請中間做一個軍民共用的一個共版的一個規格那只要這些民用的無人機一旦到了戰時我們再改裝加上一些軟體然後加上一些火攻的"},{"start":459.029,"end":488.208,"text":"我們就可以成為一個軍用的這是第二個第三個就是我們要打入國際的供應鏈我想這個部分美方也特別的重視也就是說美方要建構是一個去紅化的供應鏈那去紅化之後就要結合各個國家的一個優勢然後把將這個優勢發揮那我們如果能夠打入這個國際供應鏈規模才能夠起的來我們不一定要造整機可是我們如果有一些關鍵的技術我們把這些關鍵的技術跟另外的國家做結合"},{"start":488.728,"end":516.391,"text":"那這樣的話我們這些關鍵引擎組件就有一定的在國際供應量就有一定的一個規模量那這個公司就願意去投入然後又願意更研發然後再更精進所以這些都已經是在進行事當中事實上現在很多國家都已經過來都來進行這些無人機跟反制無人機的這些大家共同來合作"},{"start":517.253,"end":518.362,"text":"那國防部這邊就再繼續努力"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":811,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時26分）謝謝主席，有請部長、軍備局局長以及國家中山科學研究院副院長。"],["主席：有請部長、局長、副院長。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，從烏俄戰爭的一個借鑑，我們知道未來如果真的發生戰事，無人機幾乎在整個戰線中會變得越來越重要，所以我們在思考無人機這個產業的時候，也就是國軍要怎麼布建無人機這個部分，我覺得還有一塊是很重要的，就是怎麼反制無人機──對無人機的反制。這個反制可能就包括偵蒐，你要知道無人機來了；第二個就是偵蒐到了，你要怎麼去防止無人機再繼續接近……"],["顧部長立雄：有軟殺跟硬殺。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，有軟殺跟硬殺，所以要防止無人機接近；但我們知道無人機很多的科技也都一直在進步，為了防止無人機接近，我們之前說要用電波，用更強的頻率，讓無人機失去遠端的控制，但是他們現在也發展出透過光纖來連接無人機，還有AI無人機可以自己辨別，直接變成任務型的無人機。所以我們在反制無人機的時候，是不是也要針對不同的態樣，然後有不同的反制作為？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我大概說明一下。詳細內容，他們可以再做細部的說明。剛剛已經講了，無人機的反制分成軟殺跟硬殺。無人機有各型的無人機，有的是比較昂貴的無人機，像美國這種MQ-9B一架就要一億多美金；也有一種非常小型的無人機。對於不同的無人機，它的應對與反制，要有不同的思維。我舉個例子，像伊朗他們發射Shahed這樣一個低成本的無人機，以色列就用它的鐵穹系統來反制，可是這個鐵穹系統的成本可能高過於Shahed整個發射過來的十倍。像這種用一個高價的飛彈防禦系統去應對這個低價的無人機，這就是我們要思考的。在我們面對國土防衛作戰的時候，我們得思考共軍可能運用無人機的作戰模式，我們要用什麼樣有效的方式來進行無人機的反制？我們不可能拿造價昂貴的，比如雄三、或雄二去應對他那個一二三型的無人機，這樣的話，我們的飛彈一下就被消耗光了。現在的無人機不斷的在進步，反制無人機的技術也不斷在進步，甚至已經講到比如雷射的可能性，還有用低成本類似無人機反制的這種可能性，當然也有可能運用一些軟殺的手段來進行干擾，這些都在我們應該要研討的範圍之內，這個部分大家也都在加強。"],["蔡委員易餘：本席延續部長剛才說的，事實上，我要強調的就是這個重點，我們在反制無人機的時候，第一個就是反制成本要下降，反制成本要下降的話，可能就像剛剛講到的用小型無人機來做反制，那麼我們就要有更多的小型無人機，就必須要有一定的數量，如果對方用群蜂無人機過來，我們是不是有更多數量低成本的無人機去阻擋？而這些都需要產業的投入，所以軍備局是不是應該開始跟很多無人機的廠商，請他們投入類似這樣的反制無人機，然後把數量衝出來，我們要有一定的數量，事實上，這些廠商也需要我們國防部做他們背後的支撐。這部分是不是要請部長……"],["顧部長立雄：對，跟委員報告，我想中科院也好，軍備局也好，或是跟美方的技術合作也好，不管是無人機或反制無人機的部分，我們都要想辦法。就像您講的用無人機反制無人機，或是無人機本身也有各種各款的無人機，有的是低成本的，有的比較高成本，有的是距離比較短的，有的是打反裝甲的，有的是打艦的，相關的這些部分，我們都要建立國防自主的產能，一旦發生戰事的時候，我們才有辦法應對，因為無人機的消耗量相當大，在烏俄戰爭中就可以看得出來，所以烏克蘭已經建立了一個自存量能，他們每個月要生產的是幾萬架以上，所以我們也要建立這樣的產能，這是我們最重要的一個核心。這個部分要跟民間的力量結合，所以軍民要做整合，中科院現在也要釋出他們已經發展出來的一些關鍵性技術，讓民間可以來生產。這樣一個自主能量產生，透過軍方本來研發的能量，再加上民間創新的能量，一起做結合，無人機的自主產能，才能夠建構出來。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我要強調就是產量的問題，如果我們認為一個技術是成熟的，可以量產的，事實上民間現在投入無人機的研發就是卡在他們的產量不夠，產量不夠就涉及到接下來的整個……"],["顧部長立雄：這部分我要跟委員特別報告一下，這個就涉及到，一方面是我們軍方採購的量能有一定的極限，因為無人機的發展也是迭代發展，所以我們要細水長流，剛剛鍾委員也提到細水長流；另外就是其他部會的無人機的運用，也要能夠發展出來，我們現在已經請中科院做出一個軍民共用的共版規格，一旦到了戰時，只要將這些民用的無人機改裝，加上一些軟體及火攻的部分，就可以成為軍用的無人機，這是第二個。第三個就是我們要打入國際的供應鏈，美方對這部分也特別的重視，也就是說，美方要建構的是一個去紅化的供應鏈；去紅化之後，就要結合各個國家的優勢，然後來發揮這樣的優勢，我們如果能夠打入這個國際供應鏈，規模才能夠起得來。我們不一定要造整機，可是我們如果有一些關鍵的技術，把這些關鍵的技術跟另外的國家做結合，這樣的話，我們這些關鍵零組件在國際供應鏈上就有一定的規模量，這個公司就願意去投入，更願意去研發，然後更精進，這些都已經在進行之當中。"],["蔡委員易餘：就是環環相扣啦！"],["顧部長立雄：對。事實上，現在很多國家都已經在進行無人機跟反制無人機的合作。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，國防部這邊就再繼續努力。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡委員，謝謝部長。","已登記質詢的委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢。報告及詢答結束。","本日會議有林憶君委員、蘇清泉委員跟王鴻薇委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復。本日委員口頭質詢，未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，也請相關單位再以書面提供。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":316,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-4","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","徐巧芯","李坤城","邱志偉","蔡易餘","林憶君","蘇清泉","王鴻薇"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況暨「四年期國防總檢討」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00016"}}}