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勞工與執行職務在勞動場所中受同仁主管部署藉由職務權利濫用或不公平對待所造成的持續性的冒犯威脅冷落孤立或侮辱行為使受害勞工感到受挫被羞辱被威脅被孤立及受傷危害其身心健康跟安全提出了七種樣態\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 173.806, \"end\": 174.326, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"寫\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 174.326, \"end\": 175.286, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 175.286, \"end\": 176.087, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"與\"}, {\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 176.087, \"end\": 176.767, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 176.767, \"end\": 177.427, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 177.427, \"end\": 177.527, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 177.527, \"end\": 177.867, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"受\", \"start\": 177.867, \"end\": 178.247, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 178.247, \"end\": 178.507, \"score\": 0.987}, 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0.92}, {\"word\": \"身\", \"start\": 195.151, \"end\": 195.371, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 195.371, \"end\": 195.631, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"健\", \"start\": 195.631, \"end\": 195.831, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"康\", \"start\": 195.831, \"end\": 196.071, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 196.071, \"end\": 196.251, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 196.251, \"end\": 196.471, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 196.471, \"end\": 196.672, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 196.672, \"end\": 196.832, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 196.832, \"end\": 196.972, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 196.972, \"end\": 197.212, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"七\", \"start\": 197.212, \"end\": 197.232, \"score\": 0.286}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"態\"}]}, {\"start\": 198.812, \"end\": 225.291, \"text\": \"但是呢這七種樣態出來之後其實外界也是有持續發出一些聲音啦那我這邊整理一下主要的爭議就是來自於說到底什麼叫做持續性好保障不定的持續性跟權利濫用可是實務判斷上我們如何認定呢什麼樣的程度的言行是構成了權利濫用那這些可能有高度的主觀性可能會有認知上認定上的困難第二個部分\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 198.812, \"end\": 199.052, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 199.052, \"end\": 199.212, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 199.212, \"end\": 199.513, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"七\", \"start\": 199.513, \"end\": 199.993, \"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"態\"}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 199.993, \"end\": 200.233, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 200.233, \"end\": 200.353, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 200.353, \"end\": 200.553, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 200.553, \"end\": 200.974, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 200.974, \"end\": 201.154, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"界\", \"start\": 201.154, \"end\": 201.274, 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212.362, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 212.362, \"end\": 212.702, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"利\", \"start\": 212.702, \"end\": 212.982, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"濫\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 212.982, \"end\": 213.183, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 213.183, \"end\": 213.383, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 213.383, \"end\": 213.583, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"判\", \"start\": 213.583, \"end\": 213.943, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"斷\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 213.943, \"end\": 214.063, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 214.063, \"end\": 214.343, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 214.343, \"end\": 214.604, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 214.604, \"end\": 215.184, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 215.184, \"end\": 215.384, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"呢\", 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\"start\": 219.147, \"end\": 220.028, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 220.028, \"end\": 220.668, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 220.668, \"end\": 220.808, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 220.808, \"end\": 220.908, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 220.908, \"end\": 221.369, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 221.369, \"end\": 221.589, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 221.589, \"end\": 221.769, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 221.769, \"end\": 221.869, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 221.869, \"end\": 221.989, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 221.989, \"end\": 222.349, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"觀\"}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 222.349, \"end\": 222.709, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 222.709, \"end\": 222.79, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 222.79, \"end\": 223.01, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 223.01, \"end\": 223.29, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 223.29, \"end\": 223.43, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 223.43, \"end\": 223.83, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 223.83, \"end\": 223.99, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 223.99, \"end\": 224.111, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 224.111, \"end\": 224.251, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"困\", \"start\": 224.251, \"end\": 224.751, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"難\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 224.751, \"end\": 224.891, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 224.891, \"end\": 225.051, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 225.051, \"end\": 225.271, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 225.271, \"end\": 225.291, \"score\": 0.544}]}, {\"start\": 226.632, \"end\": 247.878, \"text\": \"被霸凌者其實往往舉證非常的困難尤其是言語霸凌啦心靈霸凌等等的可能缺乏具體的證據或者是沒有第三人在場的情況之下那我們雖然有一些申訴管道但是不是能夠有效的保護申訴者不被報復那這才是一個疑慮啦第三個部分就是我們把這個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 226.632, \"end\": 226.852, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"霸\", \"start\": 226.852, \"end\": 227.032, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"凌\", \"start\": 227.032, \"end\": 227.272, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 227.272, \"end\": 227.512, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 227.512, \"end\": 227.832, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"往\", \"start\": 227.832, \"end\": 228.032, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"往\", \"start\": 228.032, \"end\": 228.833, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"舉\"}, {\"word\": \"證\"}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 228.833, \"end\": 229.013, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 229.013, \"end\": 229.233, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 229.233, \"end\": 229.493, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"困\", \"start\": 229.493, \"end\": 230.753, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"難\"}, {\"word\": \"尤\", \"start\": 230.753, \"end\": 230.893, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 230.893, \"end\": 231.013, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 231.013, \"end\": 231.153, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 231.153, \"end\": 231.453, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"語\"}, {\"word\": \"霸\", \"start\": 231.453, \"end\": 231.633, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"凌\", \"start\": 231.633, \"end\": 231.833, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 231.833, \"end\": 232.254, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 232.254, \"end\": 232.634, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"靈\"}, {\"word\": \"霸\", \"start\": 232.634, \"end\": 232.754, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"凌\", \"start\": 232.754, \"end\": 232.934, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 232.934, \"end\": 233.154, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 233.154, \"end\": 233.294, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 233.294, 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00:00:48,164\n好沒關係我先開始好了部長想要請教一下就是其實從去年的這個勞動部的無性公務員因長期的職場壓力輕生之後呢那時候其實有揭露了非常非常多的事實也引發了非常多公務員在這個職場上面遇到一些霸凌的問題那其實有非常多的投訴啦所以到現在其實已經四個月了我想針對這件事情再做一些積極的討論\n\n3\n00:00:50,206 --> 00:01:17,447\n那就是說其實在上個月其實部長當時有公布一個叫做執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引的一個公告就是希望可以去強化僱主對於職場霸凌的一個防治責任來保障我們勞工的身心健康那在這個指引通過之後下一個階段應該就是要在職安法增訂這個防治霸凌的專章那我想要請教一下目前有沒有一個時程表\n\n4\n00:01:18,367 --> 00:01:39,722\n我們在職場辦專章因為已經開了三次的跟專家學的討論以後現在在法條上面的擬定其實已經進到收尾的階段那我自己是希望說我們趕快在這個法條上面的草案確定以後就可以盡快的來預告那有沒有一個大概的時程呢我是希望盡快盡快對大概\n\n5\n00:01:41,952 --> 00:02:09,677\n可能幾個禮拜內吧幾個禮拜內OK好那就是說因為其實這部分啦就是非常非常多人關心所以也希望就是說收集大家意見的時候我們可以在一個月之後可以看到一個相關的版本是我們預告之後然後我會送到行政院來做審議然後希望趕快就送到立法院裡面我們目標還是在這會期送進立法院好謝謝那我也想要提醒洪部長一件事情我這好像沒有辦法按幫我按下一頁好了\n\n6\n00:02:12,363 --> 00:02:41,294\n我想提醒部長一件事情就是霸凌的定義其實在教育部的時候他101年有制定一個校園霸凌防制準則那可是因為後來其實也發生了許多網路霸凌的事件像是104年的Cindy事件然後當年其實統計校園遭受霸凌大概有五萬五千名學生所以當時大家朝野立委都認為我們應該訂定一個防止霸凌專法但是教育部有提醒一件事情就是說霸凌的形態其實是持續的在改變所以不要用專法來制定\n\n7\n00:02:41,934 --> 00:02:51,841\n避免到時候可能會有一些樣態是沒有辦法使用這個霸凌的定義所以他們後來是使用這個防治準則那這次新修正的指引的職場霸凌的規定\n\n8\n00:02:53,806 --> 00:03:17,232\n是這樣寫的勞工與執行職務在勞動場所中受同仁主管部署藉由職務權利濫用或不公平對待所造成的持續性的冒犯威脅冷落孤立或侮辱行為使受害勞工感到受挫被羞辱被威脅被孤立及受傷危害其身心健康跟安全提出了七種樣態\n\n9\n00:03:18,812 --> 00:03:45,291\n但是呢這七種樣態出來之後其實外界也是有持續發出一些聲音啦那我這邊整理一下主要的爭議就是來自於說到底什麼叫做持續性好保障不定的持續性跟權利濫用可是實務判斷上我們如何認定呢什麼樣的程度的言行是構成了權利濫用那這些可能有高度的主觀性可能會有認知上認定上的困難第二個部分\n\n10\n00:03:46,632 --> 00:04:07,878\n被霸凌者其實往往舉證非常的困難尤其是言語霸凌啦心靈霸凌等等的可能缺乏具體的證據或者是沒有第三人在場的情況之下那我們雖然有一些申訴管道但是不是能夠有效的保護申訴者不被報復那這才是一個疑慮啦第三個部分就是我們把這個\n\n11\n00:04:09,538 --> 00:04:22,683\n霸凌的行為者呢擴大到主管同事之間的多種主體可是如果實務上如果這個霸凌來自於客戶或是服務對象的話雇主可能很難直接的控制或干預那這就會有規則歸屬的一個很模糊的狀態\n\n12\n00:04:26,184 --> 00:04:42,766\n所以我在想是不是也可以把相關的意見再做一些收集那也可以讓我們知道說這個法律的定義上面要怎麼來處理因為這可能就會連動到未來公務人員防止霸凌防治的一個法律意涵所以這部分是不是可以請勞動部再做更仔細的釐清\n\n13\n00:04:43,527 --> 00:05:00,005\n好跟張委員說明確實比方說因為從很多實務上面來看比方說確實我們在國際上面會看到有些他會要會強調說要有所謂的持續性那當然持續性怎麼認定或者是在持續性這個問題上面有沒有一些\n\n14\n00:05:01,567 --> 00:05:20,159\n比較開放性的討論的空間那這部分其實我們在我們自己的專章裡面我們都有做相關的思考但是你現在裡面講到的一些問題包括標準認定的問題其實我們自己也參考了一些國際的法律確實對職場霸凌的認定都\n\n15\n00:05:24,571 --> 00:05:50,604\n大家都有表達這個認定上面好像不容易好像某個做法就能夠切得一乾二淨就是這在國際上面都是這樣子的討論所以都有這個狀況可是我們盡量的把這些東西納入我們在我們法治工作裡面的考慮這樣子對好那其實在第二個問題我是想要來問一下部長你有聽過三明治世代嗎你知道什麼是三明治世代嗎知道\n\n16\n00:05:51,164 --> 00:06:08,196\n你可以大概講一下三明治世代是什麼嗎就是這中間可能夾在要顧老又顧小沒錯就是其實我就是所謂的三明治世代啦我上面有長輩下面有小孩嘛那其實我們常常會遇到一個現實的問題就是小孩生病長輩生病的時候到底我們應該如何的去選\n\n17\n00:06:09,477 --> 00:06:25,425\n如何的在工作跟職場上面去做一個平衡所以如果國家可以支持我們的話讓家長可以安心的去請這個家庭照顧假的話其實就是可以更支持我們女性不要因為經濟收入可能普遍比男性來的低而成為最後必須要請假\n\n18\n00:06:26,705 --> 00:06:44,947\n來去支援照顧育兒或是顧長輩的一個犧牲角色那其實民間團體這幾年一直有來倡議就是說希望勞工的家庭工作假可以比照公務員有7天的有薪假那我不曉得多我不曉得說部長您的看法我其實有算過大概一年是740億啦您的看法是什麼\n\n19\n00:06:47,407 --> 00:06:56,112\n確實我們在評估如果這個家庭照顧假要有薪的話每一天可能是會是上百億的狀況所以7天的話可能會是700多億\n\n20\n00:06:57,311 --> 00:07:17,771\n700多億對那目前的話是規劃下一步是要怎麼來有算過嗎那我其實跟張委員說明就是說因為剛剛在講到像照顧不離職這樣子的目標但是我覺得我們整體的這個目標那關於家庭照顧價的強化這是做法\n\n21\n00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:34,000\n就大家提議的做法之一那可是這些相關的做法當然會牽涉到財源跟財政的問題尤其是在現在財務法的修訂之後中央其實可以整體調度的財源又比過去來的少\n\n22\n00:07:35,282 --> 00:07:49,379\n那剛剛在你的投影片裡面有講到說這個今年的這個稅劇剩餘的部分可是因為稅劇剩餘並不是每年都一定會有的可是如果今天我要把它變成是一個制度性的制度的話它應該會是要每年都會有持續性的裁員\n\n23\n00:07:50,580 --> 00:08:17,310\n而沒有辦法只是說今年看起來睡意剩餘比較多所以就可以拿來補可是明年如果沒有睡意剩餘就沒辦法補可能就不會是這個狀況所以我們基本上目前還是希望比方透過休假的制度或者是留庭的制度怎麼樣讓它更彈性更好用的方式來去兼顧也不只是女性啦照顧家庭跟職場需求上面的平衡那這部分我們還在研擬之中那應該希望盡快的可以來跟大家來做討論\n\n24\n00:08:18,851 --> 00:08:34,898\n所以目前就是在架上面去做一些調整嗎或者是流停的做法流停的做法上面其實怎麼樣更有彈性可以更靈活更能夠兼顧大家實際上面的需求所以就在育嬰流停上面可能還會有一些調整的空間就對了我們認為是有空間好謝謝好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9513\t18069\t謝謝主席 有請勞動部長請紅部長不好意思 我們等一下投影片張委員好\n24124\t48164\t好沒關係我先開始好了部長想要請教一下就是其實從去年的這個勞動部的無性公務員因長期的職場壓力輕生之後呢那時候其實有揭露了非常非常多的事實也引發了非常多公務員在這個職場上面遇到一些霸凌的問題那其實有非常多的投訴啦所以到現在其實已經四個月了我想針對這件事情再做一些積極的討論\n50206\t77447\t那就是說其實在上個月其實部長當時有公布一個叫做執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引的一個公告就是希望可以去強化僱主對於職場霸凌的一個防治責任來保障我們勞工的身心健康那在這個指引通過之後下一個階段應該就是要在職安法增訂這個防治霸凌的專章那我想要請教一下目前有沒有一個時程表\n78367\t99722\t我們在職場辦專章因為已經開了三次的跟專家學的討論以後現在在法條上面的擬定其實已經進到收尾的階段那我自己是希望說我們趕快在這個法條上面的草案確定以後就可以盡快的來預告那有沒有一個大概的時程呢我是希望盡快盡快對大概\n101952\t129677\t可能幾個禮拜內吧幾個禮拜內 OK好那就是說 因為其實這部分啦就是非常非常多人關心所以也希望就是說收集大家意見的時候我們可以在一個月之後可以看到一個相關的版本是 我們預告之後然後我會送到行政院來做審議然後希望趕快就送到立法院裡面我們目標還是在這會期送進立法院好 謝謝那我也想要提醒洪部長一件事情我這好像沒有辦法按 幫我按下一頁好了\n132363\t161294\t我想提醒部長一件事情就是霸凌的定義其實在教育部的時候他101年有制定一個校園霸凌防制準則那可是因為後來其實也發生了許多網路霸凌的事件像是104年的Cindy事件然後當年其實統計校園遭受霸凌大概有五萬五千名學生所以當時大家朝野立委都認為我們應該訂定一個防止霸凌專法但是教育部有提醒一件事情就是說霸凌的形態其實是持續的在改變所以不要用專法來制定\n161934\t171841\t避免到時候可能會有一些樣態是沒有辦法使用這個霸凌的定義所以他們後來是使用這個防治準則那這次新修正的指引的職場霸凌的規定\n173806\t197232\t是這樣寫的 勞工與執行職務在勞動場所中受同仁主管部署藉由職務權利濫用或不公平對待所造成的持續性的冒犯威脅冷落孤立或侮辱行為使受害勞工感到受挫被羞辱被威脅被孤立及受傷危害其身心健康跟安全提出了七種樣態\n198812\t225291\t但是呢這七種樣態出來之後其實外界也是有持續發出一些聲音啦那我這邊整理一下主要的爭議就是來自於說到底什麼叫做持續性好保障不定的持續性跟權利濫用可是實務判斷上我們如何認定呢什麼樣的程度的言行是構成了權利濫用那這些可能有高度的主觀性可能會有認知上認定上的困難第二個部分\n226632\t247878\t被霸凌者其實往往舉證非常的困難尤其是言語霸凌啦心靈霸凌等等的可能缺乏具體的證據或者是沒有第三人在場的情況之下那我們雖然有一些申訴管道但是不是能夠有效的保護申訴者不被報復那這才是一個疑慮啦第三個部分就是我們把這個\n249538\t262683\t霸凌的行為者呢擴大到主管同事之間的多種主體可是如果實務上如果這個霸凌來自於客戶或是服務對象的話雇主可能很難直接的控制或干預那這就會有規則歸屬的一個很模糊的狀態\n266184\t282766\t所以我在想是不是也可以把相關的意見再做一些收集那也可以讓我們知道說這個法律的定義上面要怎麼來處理因為這可能就會連動到未來公務人員防止霸凌防治的一個法律意涵所以這部分是不是可以請勞動部再做更仔細的釐清\n283527\t300005\t好跟張委員說明確實比方說因為從很多實務上面來看比方說確實我們在國際上面會看到有些他會要會強調說要有所謂的持續性那當然持續性怎麼認定或者是在持續性這個問題上面有沒有一些\n301567\t320159\t比較開放性的討論的空間那這部分其實我們在我們自己的專章裡面我們都有做相關的思考但是你現在裡面講到的一些問題包括標準認定的問題其實我們自己也參考了一些國際的法律確實對職場霸凌的認定都\n324571\t350604\t大家都有表達這個認定上面好像不容易好像某個做法就能夠切得一乾二淨就是這在國際上面都是這樣子的討論所以都有這個狀況可是我們盡量的把這些東西納入我們在我們法治工作裡面的考慮這樣子對好那其實在第二個問題我是想要來問一下部長你有聽過三明治世代嗎你知道什麼是三明治世代嗎知道\n351164\t368196\t你可以大概講一下三明治世代是什麼嗎就是這中間可能夾在要顧老又顧小沒錯就是其實我就是所謂的三明治世代啦我上面有長輩下面有小孩嘛那其實我們常常會遇到一個現實的問題就是小孩生病長輩生病的時候到底我們應該如何的去選\n369477\t385425\t如何的在工作跟職場上面去做一個平衡所以如果國家可以支持我們的話讓家長可以安心的去請這個家庭照顧假的話其實就是可以更支持我們女性不要因為經濟收入可能普遍比男性來的低而成為最後必須要請假\n386705\t404947\t來去支援照顧育兒或是顧長輩的一個犧牲角色那其實民間團體這幾年一直有來倡議就是說希望勞工的家庭工作假可以比照公務員有7天的有薪假那我不曉得多我不曉得說部長您的看法我其實有算過大概一年是740億啦您的看法是什麼\n407407\t416112\t確實我們在評估如果這個家庭照顧假要有薪的話每一天可能是會是上百億的狀況所以7天的話可能會是700多億\n417311\t437771\t700多億對那目前的話是規劃下一步是要怎麼來有算過嗎那我其實跟張委員說明就是說因為剛剛在講到像照顧不離職這樣子的目標但是我覺得我們整體的這個目標那關於家庭照顧價的強化這是做法\n438680\t454000\t就大家提議的做法之一那可是這些相關的做法當然會牽涉到財源跟財政的問題尤其是在現在財務法的修訂之後中央其實可以整體調度的財源又比過去來的少\n455282\t469379\t那剛剛在你的投影片裡面有講到說這個今年的這個稅劇剩餘的部分可是因為稅劇剩餘並不是每年都一定會有的可是如果今天我要把它變成是一個制度性的制度的話它應該會是要每年都會有持續性的裁員\n470580\t497310\t而沒有辦法只是說今年看起來睡意剩餘比較多所以就可以拿來補可是明年如果沒有睡意剩餘就沒辦法補可能就不會是這個狀況所以我們基本上目前還是希望比方透過休假的制度或者是留庭的制度怎麼樣讓它更彈性更好用的方式來去兼顧也不只是女性啦照顧家庭跟職場需求上面的平衡那這部分我們還在研擬之中那應該希望盡快的可以來跟大家來做討論\n498851\t514898\t所以目前就是在架上面去做一些調整嗎或者是流停的做法流停的做法上面其實怎麼樣更有彈性可以更靈活更能夠兼顧大家實際上面的需求所以就在育嬰流停上面可能還會有一些調整的空間就對了我們認為是有空間好 謝謝好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請勞動部長請紅部長不好意思 我們等一下投影片張委員好\n好沒關係我先開始好了部長想要請教一下就是其實從去年的這個勞動部的無性公務員因長期的職場壓力輕生之後呢那時候其實有揭露了非常非常多的事實也引發了非常多公務員在這個職場上面遇到一些霸凌的問題那其實有非常多的投訴啦所以到現在其實已經四個月了我想針對這件事情再做一些積極的討論\n那就是說其實在上個月其實部長當時有公布一個叫做執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引的一個公告就是希望可以去強化僱主對於職場霸凌的一個防治責任來保障我們勞工的身心健康那在這個指引通過之後下一個階段應該就是要在職安法增訂這個防治霸凌的專章那我想要請教一下目前有沒有一個時程表\n我們在職場辦專章因為已經開了三次的跟專家學的討論以後現在在法條上面的擬定其實已經進到收尾的階段那我自己是希望說我們趕快在這個法條上面的草案確定以後就可以盡快的來預告那有沒有一個大概的時程呢我是希望盡快盡快對大概\n可能幾個禮拜內吧幾個禮拜內 OK好那就是說 因為其實這部分啦就是非常非常多人關心所以也希望就是說收集大家意見的時候我們可以在一個月之後可以看到一個相關的版本是 我們預告之後然後我會送到行政院來做審議然後希望趕快就送到立法院裡面我們目標還是在這會期送進立法院好 謝謝那我也想要提醒洪部長一件事情我這好像沒有辦法按 幫我按下一頁好了\n我想提醒部長一件事情就是霸凌的定義其實在教育部的時候他101年有制定一個校園霸凌防制準則那可是因為後來其實也發生了許多網路霸凌的事件像是104年的Cindy事件然後當年其實統計校園遭受霸凌大概有五萬五千名學生所以當時大家朝野立委都認為我們應該訂定一個防止霸凌專法但是教育部有提醒一件事情就是說霸凌的形態其實是持續的在改變所以不要用專法來制定\n避免到時候可能會有一些樣態是沒有辦法使用這個霸凌的定義所以他們後來是使用這個防治準則那這次新修正的指引的職場霸凌的規定\n是這樣寫的 勞工與執行職務在勞動場所中受同仁主管部署藉由職務權利濫用或不公平對待所造成的持續性的冒犯威脅冷落孤立或侮辱行為使受害勞工感到受挫被羞辱被威脅被孤立及受傷危害其身心健康跟安全提出了七種樣態\n但是呢這七種樣態出來之後其實外界也是有持續發出一些聲音啦那我這邊整理一下主要的爭議就是來自於說到底什麼叫做持續性好保障不定的持續性跟權利濫用可是實務判斷上我們如何認定呢什麼樣的程度的言行是構成了權利濫用那這些可能有高度的主觀性可能會有認知上認定上的困難第二個部分\n被霸凌者其實往往舉證非常的困難尤其是言語霸凌啦心靈霸凌等等的可能缺乏具體的證據或者是沒有第三人在場的情況之下那我們雖然有一些申訴管道但是不是能夠有效的保護申訴者不被報復那這才是一個疑慮啦第三個部分就是我們把這個\n霸凌的行為者呢擴大到主管同事之間的多種主體可是如果實務上如果這個霸凌來自於客戶或是服務對象的話雇主可能很難直接的控制或干預那這就會有規則歸屬的一個很模糊的狀態\n所以我在想是不是也可以把相關的意見再做一些收集那也可以讓我們知道說這個法律的定義上面要怎麼來處理因為這可能就會連動到未來公務人員防止霸凌防治的一個法律意涵所以這部分是不是可以請勞動部再做更仔細的釐清\n好跟張委員說明確實比方說因為從很多實務上面來看比方說確實我們在國際上面會看到有些他會要會強調說要有所謂的持續性那當然持續性怎麼認定或者是在持續性這個問題上面有沒有一些\n比較開放性的討論的空間那這部分其實我們在我們自己的專章裡面我們都有做相關的思考但是你現在裡面講到的一些問題包括標準認定的問題其實我們自己也參考了一些國際的法律確實對職場霸凌的認定都\n大家都有表達這個認定上面好像不容易好像某個做法就能夠切得一乾二淨就是這在國際上面都是這樣子的討論所以都有這個狀況可是我們盡量的把這些東西納入我們在我們法治工作裡面的考慮這樣子對好那其實在第二個問題我是想要來問一下部長你有聽過三明治世代嗎你知道什麼是三明治世代嗎知道\n你可以大概講一下三明治世代是什麼嗎就是這中間可能夾在要顧老又顧小沒錯就是其實我就是所謂的三明治世代啦我上面有長輩下面有小孩嘛那其實我們常常會遇到一個現實的問題就是小孩生病長輩生病的時候到底我們應該如何的去選\n如何的在工作跟職場上面去做一個平衡所以如果國家可以支持我們的話讓家長可以安心的去請這個家庭照顧假的話其實就是可以更支持我們女性不要因為經濟收入可能普遍比男性來的低而成為最後必須要請假\n來去支援照顧育兒或是顧長輩的一個犧牲角色那其實民間團體這幾年一直有來倡議就是說希望勞工的家庭工作假可以比照公務員有7天的有薪假那我不曉得多我不曉得說部長您的看法我其實有算過大概一年是740億啦您的看法是什麼\n確實我們在評估如果這個家庭照顧假要有薪的話每一天可能是會是上百億的狀況所以7天的話可能會是700多億\n700多億對那目前的話是規劃下一步是要怎麼來有算過嗎那我其實跟張委員說明就是說因為剛剛在講到像照顧不離職這樣子的目標但是我覺得我們整體的這個目標那關於家庭照顧價的強化這是做法\n就大家提議的做法之一那可是這些相關的做法當然會牽涉到財源跟財政的問題尤其是在現在財務法的修訂之後中央其實可以整體調度的財源又比過去來的少\n那剛剛在你的投影片裡面有講到說這個今年的這個稅劇剩餘的部分可是因為稅劇剩餘並不是每年都一定會有的可是如果今天我要把它變成是一個制度性的制度的話它應該會是要每年都會有持續性的裁員\n而沒有辦法只是說今年看起來睡意剩餘比較多所以就可以拿來補可是明年如果沒有睡意剩餘就沒辦法補可能就不會是這個狀況所以我們基本上目前還是希望比方透過休假的制度或者是留庭的制度怎麼樣讓它更彈性更好用的方式來去兼顧也不只是女性啦照顧家庭跟職場需求上面的平衡那這部分我們還在研擬之中那應該希望盡快的可以來跟大家來做討論\n所以目前就是在架上面去做一些調整嗎或者是流停的做法流停的做法上面其實怎麼樣更有彈性可以更靈活更能夠兼顧大家實際上面的需求所以就在育嬰流停上面可能還會有一些調整的空間就對了我們認為是有空間好 謝謝好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.513 --> 00:18.069\n謝謝主席有請勞動部長請紅部長不好意思我們等一下投影片張委員好\n\n00:24.124 --> 00:48.164\n好沒關係我先開始好了部長想要請教一下就是其實從去年的這個勞動部的無性公務員因長期的職場壓力輕生之後呢那時候其實有揭露了非常非常多的事實也引發了非常多公務員在這個職場上面遇到一些霸凌的問題那其實有非常多的投訴啦所以到現在其實已經四個月了我想針對這件事情再做一些積極的討論\n\n00:50.206 --> 01:17.447\n那就是說其實在上個月其實部長當時有公布一個叫做執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引的一個公告就是希望可以去強化僱主對於職場霸凌的一個防治責任來保障我們勞工的身心健康那在這個指引通過之後下一個階段應該就是要在職安法增訂這個防治霸凌的專章那我想要請教一下目前有沒有一個時程表\n\n01:18.367 --> 01:39.722\n我們在職場辦專章因為已經開了三次的跟專家學的討論以後現在在法條上面的擬定其實已經進到收尾的階段那我自己是希望說我們趕快在這個法條上面的草案確定以後就可以盡快的來預告那有沒有一個大概的時程呢我是希望盡快盡快對大概\n\n01:41.952 --> 02:09.677\n可能幾個禮拜內吧幾個禮拜內OK好那就是說因為其實這部分啦就是非常非常多人關心所以也希望就是說收集大家意見的時候我們可以在一個月之後可以看到一個相關的版本是我們預告之後然後我會送到行政院來做審議然後希望趕快就送到立法院裡面我們目標還是在這會期送進立法院好謝謝那我也想要提醒洪部長一件事情我這好像沒有辦法按幫我按下一頁好了\n\n02:12.363 --> 02:41.294\n我想提醒部長一件事情就是霸凌的定義其實在教育部的時候他101年有制定一個校園霸凌防制準則那可是因為後來其實也發生了許多網路霸凌的事件像是104年的Cindy事件然後當年其實統計校園遭受霸凌大概有五萬五千名學生所以當時大家朝野立委都認為我們應該訂定一個防止霸凌專法但是教育部有提醒一件事情就是說霸凌的形態其實是持續的在改變所以不要用專法來制定\n\n02:41.934 --> 02:51.841\n避免到時候可能會有一些樣態是沒有辦法使用這個霸凌的定義所以他們後來是使用這個防治準則那這次新修正的指引的職場霸凌的規定\n\n02:53.806 --> 03:17.232\n是這樣寫的勞工與執行職務在勞動場所中受同仁主管部署藉由職務權利濫用或不公平對待所造成的持續性的冒犯威脅冷落孤立或侮辱行為使受害勞工感到受挫被羞辱被威脅被孤立及受傷危害其身心健康跟安全提出了七種樣態\n\n03:18.812 --> 03:45.291\n但是呢這七種樣態出來之後其實外界也是有持續發出一些聲音啦那我這邊整理一下主要的爭議就是來自於說到底什麼叫做持續性好保障不定的持續性跟權利濫用可是實務判斷上我們如何認定呢什麼樣的程度的言行是構成了權利濫用那這些可能有高度的主觀性可能會有認知上認定上的困難第二個部分\n\n03:46.632 --> 04:07.878\n被霸凌者其實往往舉證非常的困難尤其是言語霸凌啦心靈霸凌等等的可能缺乏具體的證據或者是沒有第三人在場的情況之下那我們雖然有一些申訴管道但是不是能夠有效的保護申訴者不被報復那這才是一個疑慮啦第三個部分就是我們把這個\n\n04:09.538 --> 04:22.683\n霸凌的行為者呢擴大到主管同事之間的多種主體可是如果實務上如果這個霸凌來自於客戶或是服務對象的話雇主可能很難直接的控制或干預那這就會有規則歸屬的一個很模糊的狀態\n\n04:26.184 --> 04:42.766\n所以我在想是不是也可以把相關的意見再做一些收集那也可以讓我們知道說這個法律的定義上面要怎麼來處理因為這可能就會連動到未來公務人員防止霸凌防治的一個法律意涵所以這部分是不是可以請勞動部再做更仔細的釐清\n\n04:43.527 --> 05:00.005\n好跟張委員說明確實比方說因為從很多實務上面來看比方說確實我們在國際上面會看到有些他會要會強調說要有所謂的持續性那當然持續性怎麼認定或者是在持續性這個問題上面有沒有一些\n\n05:01.567 --> 05:20.159\n比較開放性的討論的空間那這部分其實我們在我們自己的專章裡面我們都有做相關的思考但是你現在裡面講到的一些問題包括標準認定的問題其實我們自己也參考了一些國際的法律確實對職場霸凌的認定都\n\n05:24.571 --> 05:50.604\n大家都有表達這個認定上面好像不容易好像某個做法就能夠切得一乾二淨就是這在國際上面都是這樣子的討論所以都有這個狀況可是我們盡量的把這些東西納入我們在我們法治工作裡面的考慮這樣子對好那其實在第二個問題我是想要來問一下部長你有聽過三明治世代嗎你知道什麼是三明治世代嗎知道\n\n05:51.164 --> 06:08.196\n你可以大概講一下三明治世代是什麼嗎就是這中間可能夾在要顧老又顧小沒錯就是其實我就是所謂的三明治世代啦我上面有長輩下面有小孩嘛那其實我們常常會遇到一個現實的問題就是小孩生病長輩生病的時候到底我們應該如何的去選\n\n06:09.477 --> 06:25.425\n如何的在工作跟職場上面去做一個平衡所以如果國家可以支持我們的話讓家長可以安心的去請這個家庭照顧假的話其實就是可以更支持我們女性不要因為經濟收入可能普遍比男性來的低而成為最後必須要請假\n\n06:26.705 --> 06:44.947\n來去支援照顧育兒或是顧長輩的一個犧牲角色那其實民間團體這幾年一直有來倡議就是說希望勞工的家庭工作假可以比照公務員有7天的有薪假那我不曉得多我不曉得說部長您的看法我其實有算過大概一年是740億啦您的看法是什麼\n\n06:47.407 --> 06:56.112\n確實我們在評估如果這個家庭照顧假要有薪的話每一天可能是會是上百億的狀況所以7天的話可能會是700多億\n\n06:57.311 --> 07:17.771\n700多億對那目前的話是規劃下一步是要怎麼來有算過嗎那我其實跟張委員說明就是說因為剛剛在講到像照顧不離職這樣子的目標但是我覺得我們整體的這個目標那關於家庭照顧價的強化這是做法\n\n07:18.680 --> 07:34.000\n就大家提議的做法之一那可是這些相關的做法當然會牽涉到財源跟財政的問題尤其是在現在財務法的修訂之後中央其實可以整體調度的財源又比過去來的少\n\n07:35.282 --> 07:49.379\n那剛剛在你的投影片裡面有講到說這個今年的這個稅劇剩餘的部分可是因為稅劇剩餘並不是每年都一定會有的可是如果今天我要把它變成是一個制度性的制度的話它應該會是要每年都會有持續性的裁員\n\n07:50.580 --> 08:17.310\n而沒有辦法只是說今年看起來睡意剩餘比較多所以就可以拿來補可是明年如果沒有睡意剩餘就沒辦法補可能就不會是這個狀況所以我們基本上目前還是希望比方透過休假的制度或者是留庭的制度怎麼樣讓它更彈性更好用的方式來去兼顧也不只是女性啦照顧家庭跟職場需求上面的平衡那這部分我們還在研擬之中那應該希望盡快的可以來跟大家來做討論\n\n08:18.851 --> 08:34.898\n所以目前就是在架上面去做一些調整嗎或者是流停的做法流停的做法上面其實怎麼樣更有彈性可以更靈活更能夠兼顧大家實際上面的需求所以就在育嬰流停上面可能還會有一些調整的空間就對了我們認為是有空間好謝謝好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.513,"end":18.069,"text":"謝謝主席 有請勞動部長請紅部長不好意思 我們等一下投影片張委員好"},{"start":24.124,"end":48.164,"text":"好沒關係我先開始好了部長想要請教一下就是其實從去年的這個勞動部的無性公務員因長期的職場壓力輕生之後呢那時候其實有揭露了非常非常多的事實也引發了非常多公務員在這個職場上面遇到一些霸凌的問題那其實有非常多的投訴啦所以到現在其實已經四個月了我想針對這件事情再做一些積極的討論"},{"start":50.206,"end":77.447,"text":"那就是說其實在上個月其實部長當時有公布一個叫做執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引的一個公告就是希望可以去強化僱主對於職場霸凌的一個防治責任來保障我們勞工的身心健康那在這個指引通過之後下一個階段應該就是要在職安法增訂這個防治霸凌的專章那我想要請教一下目前有沒有一個時程表"},{"start":78.367,"end":99.722,"text":"我們在職場辦專章因為已經開了三次的跟專家學的討論以後現在在法條上面的擬定其實已經進到收尾的階段那我自己是希望說我們趕快在這個法條上面的草案確定以後就可以盡快的來預告那有沒有一個大概的時程呢我是希望盡快盡快對大概"},{"start":101.952,"end":129.677,"text":"可能幾個禮拜內吧幾個禮拜內 OK好那就是說 因為其實這部分啦就是非常非常多人關心所以也希望就是說收集大家意見的時候我們可以在一個月之後可以看到一個相關的版本是 我們預告之後然後我會送到行政院來做審議然後希望趕快就送到立法院裡面我們目標還是在這會期送進立法院好 謝謝那我也想要提醒洪部長一件事情我這好像沒有辦法按 幫我按下一頁好了"},{"start":132.363,"end":161.294,"text":"我想提醒部長一件事情就是霸凌的定義其實在教育部的時候他101年有制定一個校園霸凌防制準則那可是因為後來其實也發生了許多網路霸凌的事件像是104年的Cindy事件然後當年其實統計校園遭受霸凌大概有五萬五千名學生所以當時大家朝野立委都認為我們應該訂定一個防止霸凌專法但是教育部有提醒一件事情就是說霸凌的形態其實是持續的在改變所以不要用專法來制定"},{"start":161.934,"end":171.841,"text":"避免到時候可能會有一些樣態是沒有辦法使用這個霸凌的定義所以他們後來是使用這個防治準則那這次新修正的指引的職場霸凌的規定"},{"start":173.806,"end":197.232,"text":"是這樣寫的 勞工與執行職務在勞動場所中受同仁主管部署藉由職務權利濫用或不公平對待所造成的持續性的冒犯威脅冷落孤立或侮辱行為使受害勞工感到受挫被羞辱被威脅被孤立及受傷危害其身心健康跟安全提出了七種樣態"},{"start":198.812,"end":225.291,"text":"但是呢這七種樣態出來之後其實外界也是有持續發出一些聲音啦那我這邊整理一下主要的爭議就是來自於說到底什麼叫做持續性好保障不定的持續性跟權利濫用可是實務判斷上我們如何認定呢什麼樣的程度的言行是構成了權利濫用那這些可能有高度的主觀性可能會有認知上認定上的困難第二個部分"},{"start":226.632,"end":247.878,"text":"被霸凌者其實往往舉證非常的困難尤其是言語霸凌啦心靈霸凌等等的可能缺乏具體的證據或者是沒有第三人在場的情況之下那我們雖然有一些申訴管道但是不是能夠有效的保護申訴者不被報復那這才是一個疑慮啦第三個部分就是我們把這個"},{"start":249.538,"end":262.683,"text":"霸凌的行為者呢擴大到主管同事之間的多種主體可是如果實務上如果這個霸凌來自於客戶或是服務對象的話雇主可能很難直接的控制或干預那這就會有規則歸屬的一個很模糊的狀態"},{"start":266.184,"end":282.766,"text":"所以我在想是不是也可以把相關的意見再做一些收集那也可以讓我們知道說這個法律的定義上面要怎麼來處理因為這可能就會連動到未來公務人員防止霸凌防治的一個法律意涵所以這部分是不是可以請勞動部再做更仔細的釐清"},{"start":283.527,"end":300.005,"text":"好跟張委員說明確實比方說因為從很多實務上面來看比方說確實我們在國際上面會看到有些他會要會強調說要有所謂的持續性那當然持續性怎麼認定或者是在持續性這個問題上面有沒有一些"},{"start":301.567,"end":320.159,"text":"比較開放性的討論的空間那這部分其實我們在我們自己的專章裡面我們都有做相關的思考但是你現在裡面講到的一些問題包括標準認定的問題其實我們自己也參考了一些國際的法律確實對職場霸凌的認定都"},{"start":324.571,"end":350.604,"text":"大家都有表達這個認定上面好像不容易好像某個做法就能夠切得一乾二淨就是這在國際上面都是這樣子的討論所以都有這個狀況可是我們盡量的把這些東西納入我們在我們法治工作裡面的考慮這樣子對好那其實在第二個問題我是想要來問一下部長你有聽過三明治世代嗎你知道什麼是三明治世代嗎知道"},{"start":351.164,"end":368.196,"text":"你可以大概講一下三明治世代是什麼嗎就是這中間可能夾在要顧老又顧小沒錯就是其實我就是所謂的三明治世代啦我上面有長輩下面有小孩嘛那其實我們常常會遇到一個現實的問題就是小孩生病長輩生病的時候到底我們應該如何的去選"},{"start":369.477,"end":385.425,"text":"如何的在工作跟職場上面去做一個平衡所以如果國家可以支持我們的話讓家長可以安心的去請這個家庭照顧假的話其實就是可以更支持我們女性不要因為經濟收入可能普遍比男性來的低而成為最後必須要請假"},{"start":386.705,"end":404.947,"text":"來去支援照顧育兒或是顧長輩的一個犧牲角色那其實民間團體這幾年一直有來倡議就是說希望勞工的家庭工作假可以比照公務員有7天的有薪假那我不曉得多我不曉得說部長您的看法我其實有算過大概一年是740億啦您的看法是什麼"},{"start":407.407,"end":416.112,"text":"確實我們在評估如果這個家庭照顧假要有薪的話每一天可能是會是上百億的狀況所以7天的話可能會是700多億"},{"start":417.311,"end":437.771,"text":"700多億對那目前的話是規劃下一步是要怎麼來有算過嗎那我其實跟張委員說明就是說因為剛剛在講到像照顧不離職這樣子的目標但是我覺得我們整體的這個目標那關於家庭照顧價的強化這是做法"},{"start":438.68,"end":454,"text":"就大家提議的做法之一那可是這些相關的做法當然會牽涉到財源跟財政的問題尤其是在現在財務法的修訂之後中央其實可以整體調度的財源又比過去來的少"},{"start":455.282,"end":469.379,"text":"那剛剛在你的投影片裡面有講到說這個今年的這個稅劇剩餘的部分可是因為稅劇剩餘並不是每年都一定會有的可是如果今天我要把它變成是一個制度性的制度的話它應該會是要每年都會有持續性的裁員"},{"start":470.58,"end":497.31,"text":"而沒有辦法只是說今年看起來睡意剩餘比較多所以就可以拿來補可是明年如果沒有睡意剩餘就沒辦法補可能就不會是這個狀況所以我們基本上目前還是希望比方透過休假的制度或者是留庭的制度怎麼樣讓它更彈性更好用的方式來去兼顧也不只是女性啦照顧家庭跟職場需求上面的平衡那這部分我們還在研擬之中那應該希望盡快的可以來跟大家來做討論"},{"start":498.851,"end":514.898,"text":"所以目前就是在架上面去做一些調整嗎或者是流停的做法流停的做法上面其實怎麼樣更有彈性可以更靈活更能夠兼顧大家實際上面的需求所以就在育嬰流停上面可能還會有一些調整的空間就對了我們認為是有空間好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1243,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（12時49分）謝謝主席，有請勞動部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：張委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長，想要請教，其實從去年勞動部的吳姓公務員因長期的職場壓力輕生之後，揭露了非常多事實，也引發非常多公務員在職場上遇到一些霸凌的問題，其實有非常多的投訴。到現在已經4個月了，我想針對這件事情再做一些積極的討論。","上個月部長有公布一個「執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引」的公告，希望可以強化雇主對於職場霸凌的防制責任，來保障勞工的身心健康。在這個指引通過之後，下一個階段應該就是要在職安法增訂防制霸凌的專章。我想要請教，目前有沒有一個時程表？"],["洪部長申翰：針對職場霸凌專章，我們已經開了三次會，跟專家學者討論以後，現在在法條的擬定其實已經到收尾的階段，我自己是希望在法條草案確定以後，我們可以儘快預告。"],["張委員雅琳：有沒有一個大概的時程？"],["洪部長申翰：我是希望儘快。"],["張委員雅琳：儘快？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["張委員雅琳：大概多久？"],["洪部長申翰：可能幾個禮拜內吧。"],["張委員雅琳：幾個禮拜內，OK，好。","其實這部分非常非常多人關心，所以也希望蒐集大家的意見，我們可以在一個月之後看到相關的版本。"],["洪部長申翰：是，我們預告之後，會送到行政院審議，然後希望趕快送到立法院，我們的目標還是在這個會期送進立法院。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。","我也想要提醒洪部長一件事，就是霸凌的定義。其實教育部在101年有制定一個校園霸凌防制準則，可是因為後來發生了許多網路霸凌的事件，像104年的Cindy事件，當年統計，在校園遭受霸凌的大概有5萬5,000名學生，所以當時朝野立委都認為我們應該訂定一個防止霸凌專法。但是教育部有提醒一件事情，霸凌的型態其實是持續的在改變，所以建議不要用專法來制定，避免到時候可能有一些樣態會沒有辦法使用霸凌的定義，所以他們後來是使用「防制準則」。","這次新修正的指引的職場霸凌定義是這樣寫的，「包括勞工於執行職務，在勞動場所中，受同仁間或主管及部屬間，藉由職務、權力濫用或不公平對待，所造成持續性的冒犯、威脅、冷落、孤立或侮辱行為，使受害勞工感到受挫、被威脅、羞辱、被孤立及受傷，進而危害其身心健康跟安全」，並提出了7種樣態。但是這7種樣態出來之後，其實外界也是有持續發出一些聲音，我這邊整理一下，主要的爭議來自於，到底什麼叫做持續性？勞動部訂了持續性跟權力濫用，可是實務判斷上，我們要如何認定呢？什麼樣程度的言行是構成了權力濫用？這些可能有高度的主觀性，可能會有認定上的困難。","第二個部分，被霸凌者往往舉證非常困難，尤其是言語霸凌、心靈霸凌等等，可能缺乏具體的證據，或者是沒有第三人在場的情況之下，我們雖然有一些申訴管道，但是不是能夠有效的保護申訴者不被報復，這才是一個疑慮。第三個部分，我們把霸凌的行為者擴大到主管、同事之間的多種主體，可是實務上如果這個霸凌來自於客戶或是服務對象的話，雇主可能很難直接的控制或干預，這就會有歸責、歸屬的一個很模糊的狀態。所以我在想是不是可以把相關的意見再做一些蒐集，也可以讓我們知道這在法律的定義上要怎麼來處理，因為這可能會連動到未來公務人員防止霸凌防制的法律義涵，所以這部分是不是可以請勞動部再做更仔細的釐清？"],["洪部長申翰：好，跟張委員說明，從很多實務上面來看，確實我們在國際上面會看到有些會強調要有所謂的持續性，當然持續性怎麼認定，或者是在持續性這個問題上面有沒有一些比較開放性的討論空間？關於這個部分，其實我們在自己的專章裡面都有做相關的思考。"],["張委員雅琳：OK。"],["洪部長申翰：但是你現在裡面講到的一些問題，包括標準認定的問題，其實我們自己也參考了一些國際的法律，對於所謂職場霸凌的認定，確實大家都有表達出在認定上好像不容易用某個做法就能夠切得一乾二淨，其實在國際上面都是這樣子的討論，所以都有這個狀況，可是我們會儘量把這些東西納入我們法制工作裡面的考慮。"],["張委員雅琳：好。第二個問題想要請問部長，你有聽過三明治世代嗎？你知道什麼是三明治世代嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：知道。"],["張委員雅琳：你可以大概講一下三明治世代是什麼嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：就是夾在中間，要顧老又要顧小。"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯，我就是所謂的三明治世代，我上面有長輩，下面有小孩，其實我們常常會遇到一個現實的問題，就是小孩生病、長輩生病的時候，到底我們應該如何在工作跟職場之間去做一個平衡？所以如果國家可以支持我們，讓家長可以安心的去請家庭照顧假的話，其實就可以更支持我們女性不要因為經濟收入可能普遍比男性來得低，而成為最後必須要請假去支援照顧育兒或是顧長輩的那個犧牲角色。其實民間團體這幾年一直有來倡議，希望勞工的家庭照顧假可以比照公務員有7天的有薪假，我不曉得部長的看法為何？我其實有算過，大概一年是740億，您的看法是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：確實，我們在評估如果家庭照顧假要有薪的話，每一天可能會是上百億的狀況，所以7天可能會是七百多億。"],["張委員雅琳：對，目前規劃的下一步是要怎麼來……有算過嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：跟張委員說明，剛剛講到像照顧不離職這樣子的目標，當然是我們整體的目標，關於家庭照顧假的強化，這是大家提議的作法之一，可是這些相關的作法當然會先牽涉到財源跟財政的問題，尤其是現在財劃法修訂之後，中央可以整體調度的財源又比過去來得少。至於剛剛張委員的投影片裡面有講到今年歲計賸餘的部分，可是歲計賸餘並不是每年都一定會有，如果今天我要把它變成是一個制度性的制度的話，它應該是要每年都會有持續性的財源，而沒有辦法今年看起來歲計賸餘比較多，就可以拿來補；可是明年如果沒有歲計賸餘，就沒辦法補，可能就不會是這個狀況。所以基本上我們目前還是希望比方說透過休假的制度或是留停的制度，看怎麼樣讓他用更彈性、用更好用的方式，也不只是女性……"],["張委員雅琳：照顧者。"],["洪部長申翰：讓他去兼顧照顧家庭跟職場需求上面的平衡。這部分我們還在研擬之中，希望可以儘快跟大家做討論。"],["張委員雅琳：所以目前就是在假的上面會去做一些調整？"],["洪部長申翰：或者是留停的作法，在留停的作法上面，怎麼樣更有彈性、可以更靈活、更能夠兼顧大家實際上面的需求。"],["張委員雅琳：了解，所以在育嬰留停上面可能還會有一些調整的空間就對了？"],["洪部長申翰：我們認為是有空間。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請黃捷委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":285,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算決議有關勞動部預算凍結報告案 19案；二、邀請\n勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預\n算關於勞動部主管部分","agenda_id":"1142901_00005"}}}