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00:02:06,996\n所以对国家的贡献可以说财政贡献是非常的好但是在这样的一个情况之下我要请教主委台积电的技术领先性是其竞争优势的关键即使遵守着\n\n6\n00:02:08,156 --> 00:02:31,808\n主委你對外說的也就是赴美投資N-1的規定仍可以導致美國半導體製造業能力的一個提升這是外界現在都在看的一個方向那進而也削弱了台灣在全球半導體供應鏈中的一個地位因為是我們的護國神山所以國防會你認為\n\n7\n00:02:36,690 --> 00:03:02,736\n在台積電赴美投資N-1就能夠保證保護台灣的角色地位嗎請主委說明我跟委員報告台積電在南京設廠20年他沒有任何機密外洩反倒是我們可以看到其他的公司反而有控告一些員工把機密帶到對岸去\n\n8\n00:03:03,976 --> 00:03:25,075\n所以機密會不會外洩完全在一家公司的管控做得好不好那我的了解台積電現在內部所有的電腦是沒有硬碟的也沒有USB的它完全是在雲端裡面它的資料是保護得非常完整所以我對台積電做技術關鍵技術的保密我是目前是信心是很高的\n\n9\n00:03:25,583 --> 00:03:48,033\n信心是很高所以換句話說我們還是維持您所說的N-1這個情形就像微軟在這邊有研發中心IBM有研發中心可是他們從來沒有辦法我們從來拿不到因為每一個企業都有自己的機密管理的能力當然因為這個是他吃飯的最基本他不可能把他的飯碗砸掉\n\n10\n00:03:49,261 --> 00:04:12,276\n不可能把那個範圍砸掉再請主委針對本席的提問也就是說目前政府告訴我們的是以N-1的這個方向跟立場是不是還是維持目前我們是維持的目前是維持本席就要提問也就是政府的立場政府的立場還是N-1的這個立場嗎是的是的喔好所以因此呢本席要因為大家\n\n11\n00:04:20,061 --> 00:04:46,448\n對台積電從開始到現在大家都號稱是護國神山所以我們仍舊希望怎麼樣能夠保護台灣讓台灣在整個的這個立場上還是都是佔非常重要的角色這是我相信所有的國人大家都很期待我們也希望政府的立場說的跟執行的是一致的是嗎是的\n\n12\n00:04:48,429 --> 00:05:11,127\n接下來本席要請教我們針對於整個產業因為主委你也非常清楚本席不斷的在跟你討論我們除了AI我們除了高科技那最重要的我們台灣的傳統產業尤其本席來自於中部地區我們的機械手工具機工具機零組件\n\n13\n00:05:12,328 --> 00:05:29,466\n這是也是台灣非常重要的護國神山尤其我們在組裝方面都能夠有較低的成本去跟世界競爭這也是為我們國家爭取了很多的外匯那所以沒有理由不照顧他們本期跟你討論\n\n14\n00:05:30,687 --> 00:05:41,957\n2月13號的時候提出的2025年經濟展望的報告當中我們看到主要機構它測試我們今年的經濟成長大概介於在2.5%到3.42%那主計總數說可以超過3%以上但根據我們過去去年工具機的產業它的是衰退將近兩成\n\n15\n00:05:58,430 --> 00:06:05,996\n營建業受政策及資金的影響開工的量是萎縮的所以許多的中小企業根本沒有辦法生存不僅如此我們的內需市場比較低迷比如說我們的餐飲零售業也面臨著消費力不足的困境\n\n16\n00:06:20,186 --> 00:06:40,277\n所以GDP整體雖然有成長但是它是集中在少數高科技的產業其他的產業尤其傳統產業它的通貨指數是在節節的上升所以本席要請教國發會您是產業政策的總指揮\n\n17\n00:06:41,317 --> 00:06:45,141\n產業政策總指揮面臨到AI的產業熱度的高漲但是我們傳統產業卻陷入寒冬這樣子的一個產業結構的極端發展已經嚴重的影響到整個經濟性的穩定度政府你有什麼樣的對策呢請教\n\n18\n00:07:04,169 --> 00:07:26,096\n這個部分我們有幾個幾個方向在跟產業溝通當然最主要我們還是要仰賴經濟部一起合作那第一個部分就是通路的部分我們有跟那個工具機協會那個有稍微那個那個陳我們有稍微有談到我們希望協助他們去做通路的建設\n\n19\n00:07:26,956 --> 00:07:50,203\n那舉個例子,現在供給機成長速度比較快的市場在印度那我們怎麼樣協助他們設立一個通路讓台灣的產業可以賣進去第二個是高質化的改變,包括美國通路的掌握其實我們都有一系列在探討那我們也希望協助他們進入一個規模化然後更具規模競爭力在研發跟在技術上面\n\n20\n00:07:50,803 --> 00:08:04,052\n那另外我們也討論到怎麼樣去讓協助他們在我們現在主要的控制機台是來自日本跟德國怎麼樣進入盡快的到國產化來做這個事情因為對岸也在做這件事情所以你現在講到了這個部分本席要提醒\n\n21\n00:08:06,994 --> 00:08:24,748\n像我們這一次在南港展出我們的這個工具機手工具機機械類別以及零組件大家非常的用心我們接單的成績非常好這是我們電機的一個平台但是我們憂心的是什麼關稅問題我們更憂心到匯率問題\n\n22\n00:08:30,232 --> 00:08:47,864\n這兩項是國防會你身為產業的總指揮官你必須要去跟相關單位去協助解決我們產業所碰到的重要問題關鍵點因為匯率不是我產業自己可以去決定\n\n23\n00:08:49,946 --> 00:08:57,451\n關稅也不是我廠家可以自己去決定那他需要靠政府所以政府你到底在我們整個產業的這個比例上面你要怎麼樣\n\n24\n00:09:03,567 --> 00:09:20,012\n提拨百分之多少來給我們的傳統產業來協助政策方向是有但是我們自己要努力可是我們碰到這非我所因素的條件是政府必須要做產業的靠山嘛對不對\n\n25\n00:09:21,152 --> 00:09:35,900\n對所以我們現在有出口的融資的補助協助他們在不是補助就是的協助那我們協助他們在融資上面出口的融資成本比較低的一些幫助讓他們在出口上面可以降低他的壓力\n\n26\n00:09:36,360 --> 00:10:02,671\n那我們會針對這一點我們再來加強看看有沒有什麼可以更好的方案本席希望聽到你精進的方案因為已經進入寒冬這是我們國家最重要的產業經濟命脈就業人口多數在這一環所以本席希望您給本席您將你精進的方案給本席你預計你一定要提升百分之多少來給我們傳統產業來協助他們\n\n27\n00:10:06,072 --> 00:10:24,401\n好的好不好好好那你大概多久時間可以給本席一個月內給你一個月內好那會提升比例嗎給我們的傳統產業我們會做一個整體的研究跟規劃我也會找經濟部一起來討論對然後朝提升的方向對不對\n\n28\n00:10:27,095 --> 00:10:40,845\n對我們會怎麼樣強化好那接下來最後一個議題本席每一年都要請問你但是我真的蠻憂心也就是針對於推動性平等的這個成效\n\n29\n00:10:42,186 --> 00:11:03,741\n我們看到勞動部的調查2024年的女性平均薪資327塊男性389女性比男性要多工作58天才能夠達到男女全年薪資的相同因此同酬日2月27日較去年只有增加兩天但是本席給你一個類別來作為討論\n\n30\n00:11:07,723 --> 00:11:13,129\n的範例電子零組件的製造業為例2020年的男性是668塊女性只有多少諸位\n\n31\n00:11:18,558 --> 00:11:42,251\n393元他的相差41%在2023年以及2019年呢分別上升了1.9跟3.2%我請教主委在結果論來說我們男女同工不同酬的情況惡劣你國發會要怎麼樣去提升推動性別平等的一個成效請教主委\n\n32\n00:11:44,337 --> 00:12:09,688\n這個我可能要找我會來找那個勞動部來討論一下看看怎麼樣這到底細節是什麼原因我們針對原因來對你是整個產業的總指揮那你今天針對這個我們每一年都跟你討論同工不同酬女性的薪資差別那麼多\n\n33\n00:12:11,206 --> 00:12:37,994\n每一個部會的總total是由勞動部來調查那總政策應該在你的國防會所以我還是具體建議因為我每一年一定會提出這個議題但是我們看不到它的一個均衡性所以本期希望因為每一個勞動者都是我們非常重要的職場沒有理由讓女性跟男性差別這麼大\n\n34\n00:12:39,215 --> 00:12:45,602\n所以本席具體要求相關部會你是總領航者你必須要跟他們去討論怎麼樣讓男女能夠來做均權均衡才能夠達到整個產業勞動力的一個均衡嘛一個向上提升嘛\n\n35\n00:12:59,836 --> 00:13:10,968\n我來瞭解一下因為我自己待過八家公司再加上現在政府都沒有男女的薪資之別薪資就是薪資主委你講到這個問題實在太離譜了我們去理解一下對不對已經勞動部的數字調查告訴你你還說沒有\n\n36\n00:13:19,175 --> 00:13:32,998\n沒有我的意思是說我們要去找出他的真正核心問題點這個就對了核心問題點到底是在哪裡就我了解上市櫃公司也都沒有這樣的問題所以我們得把你現在在政府部門做事情\n\n37\n00:13:34,025 --> 00:13:39,207\n你有權利做政策的一個決定委員我必須講我不去了解問題的核心在哪裡我解不了問題當然這是你的職責啊我不能用通用性來看待對這是你的職責所以你要去了解為什麼每一年調查出來的資訊是如此\n\n38\n00:13:54,016 --> 00:14:16,272\n所以就是問題沒解決啊謝謝委員好不好你說你願意核心去了解我非常的認同你用心多久時間可以告訴我們好不好這個至少要兩個月啦因為我很細節的去看它你好好用心去把它了解原因我們現在能夠在你的任內真的解決這個問題嘛好不好好的好謝謝好謝謝謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8512\t20777\t謝謝主席 楊群發言 邀請主委劉主委楊委員早主委好\n21618\t43893\t台積電董監事經理人持股的明細當中我們可以很顯示看出國發基金是台積電單一的最大股東它持有是6.38%的一個股份那麼近期台積電也宣布擴大對美國的投資計畫\n45194\t74600\t引發了外界對於技術外流及國家安全的一個關注那麼主委你也曾經談過你要堅持的是最新的技術不會過去對不對你也說最關鍵的技術不准過去對不對那同時你還有一個三大原則之一也就是國家安全為優先是不是如此\n76286\t96530\t是的到目前為止你仍舊是依這個原則嗎是不是是的這個我跟郭部長彼此之間有共識彼此之間的共識所以我們統計只有統計到113年的前三季那麼台積電的股利收入是高達247.9億元這是在113年的第三季那如果整年度來算應該可以達到\n106771\t126996\t所以对国家的贡献可以说财政贡献是非常的好但是在这样的一个情况之下我要请教主委台积电的技术领先性是其竞争优势的关键即使遵守着\n128156\t151808\t主委你對外說的也就是赴美投資N-1的規定仍可以導致美國半導體製造業能力的一個提升這是外界現在都在看的一個方向那進而也削弱了台灣在全球半導體供應鏈中的一個地位因為是我們的護國神山所以國防會你認為\n156690\t182736\t在台積電赴美投資N-1就能夠保證保護台灣的角色地位嗎請主委說明我跟委員報告台積電在南京設廠20年他沒有任何機密外洩反倒是我們可以看到其他的公司反而有控告一些員工把機密帶到對岸去\n183976\t205075\t所以機密會不會外洩完全在一家公司的管控做得好不好那我的了解台積電現在內部所有的電腦是沒有硬碟的也沒有USB的它完全是在雲端裡面它的資料是保護得非常完整所以我對台積電做技術關鍵技術的保密我是目前是信心是很高的\n205583\t228033\t信心是很高所以換句話說我們還是維持您所說的N-1這個情形就像微軟在這邊有研發中心IBM有研發中心可是他們從來沒有辦法我們從來拿不到因為每一個企業都有自己的機密管理的能力當然因為這個是他吃飯的最基本他不可能把他的飯碗砸掉\n229261\t252276\t不可能把那個範圍砸掉再請主委針對本席的提問也就是說目前政府告訴我們的是以N-1的這個方向跟立場是不是還是維持目前我們是維持的目前是維持本席就要提問也就是政府的立場政府的立場還是N-1的這個立場嗎是的是的喔好所以因此呢本席要因為大家\n260061\t286448\t對台積電從開始到現在大家都號稱是護國神山所以我們仍舊希望怎麼樣能夠保護台灣讓台灣在整個的這個立場上還是都是佔非常重要的角色這是我相信所有的國人大家都很期待我們也希望政府的立場說的跟執行的是一致的 是嗎是的\n288429\t311127\t接下來本席要請教我們針對於整個產業因為主委你也非常清楚本席不斷的在跟你討論我們除了AI我們除了高科技那最重要的我們台灣的傳統產業尤其本席來自於中部地區我們的機械手工具機工具機零組件\n312328\t329466\t這是也是台灣非常重要的護國神山尤其我們在組裝方面都能夠有較低的成本去跟世界競爭這也是為我們國家爭取了很多的外匯那所以沒有理由不照顧他們本期跟你討論\n330687\t341957\t2月13號的時候提出的2025年經濟展望的報告當中我們看到主要機構它測試我們今年的經濟成長大概介於在2.5%到3.42%那主計總數說可以超過3%以上但根據我們過去去年工具機的產業它的是衰退將近兩成\n358430\t365996\t營建業受政策及資金的影響 開工的量是萎縮的所以許多的中小企業根本沒有辦法生存不僅如此 我們的內需市場比較低迷比如說我們的餐飲 零售業也面臨著消費力不足的困境\n380186\t400277\t所以GDP整體雖然有成長 但是它是集中在少數高科技的產業其他的產業 尤其傳統產業 它的通貨指數是在節節的上升所以本席要請教 國發會您是產業政策的總指揮\n401317\t405141\t產業政策總指揮面臨到AI的產業熱度的高漲但是我們傳統產業卻陷入寒冬這樣子的一個產業結構的極端發展已經嚴重的影響到整個經濟性的穩定度政府你有什麼樣的對策呢請教\n424169\t446096\t這個部分我們有幾個幾個方向在跟產業溝通當然最主要我們還是要仰賴經濟部一起合作那第一個部分就是通路的部分我們有跟那個工具機協會那個有稍微那個那個陳我們有稍微有談到我們希望協助他們去做通路的建設\n446956\t470203\t那舉個例子,現在供給機成長速度比較快的市場在印度那我們怎麼樣協助他們設立一個通路讓台灣的產業可以賣進去第二個是高質化的改變,包括美國通路的掌握其實我們都有一系列在探討那我們也希望協助他們進入一個規模化然後更具規模競爭力在研發跟在技術上面\n470803\t484052\t那另外我們也討論到怎麼樣去讓協助他們在我們現在主要的控制機台是來自日本跟德國怎麼樣進入盡快的到國產化來做這個事情因為對岸也在做這件事情所以你現在講到了這個部分本席要提醒\n486994\t504748\t像我們這一次在南港展出我們的這個工具機手工具機機械類別以及零組件大家非常的用心我們接單的成績非常好這是我們電機的一個平台但是我們憂心的是什麼關稅問題我們更憂心到匯率問題\n510232\t527864\t這兩項是國防會你身為產業的總指揮官你必須要去跟相關單位去協助解決我們產業所碰到的重要問題關鍵點因為匯率不是我產業自己可以去決定\n529946\t537451\t關稅也不是我廠家可以自己去決定那他需要靠政府所以政府你到底在我們整個產業的這個比例上面你要怎麼樣\n543567\t560012\t提拨百分之多少來給我們的傳統產業來協助政策方向是有但是我們自己要努力可是我們碰到這非我所因素的條件是政府必須要做產業的靠山嘛對不對\n561152\t575900\t對 所以我們現在有出口的融資的補助協助他們在 不是補助 就是的協助那我們協助他們在融資上面出口的融資成本比較低的一些幫助讓他們在出口上面可以降低他的壓力\n576360\t602671\t那我們會針對這一點我們再來加強看看有沒有什麼可以更好的方案本席希望聽到你精進的方案因為已經進入寒冬這是我們國家最重要的產業經濟命脈就業人口多數在這一環所以本席希望您給本席您將你精進的方案給本席你預計你一定要提升百分之多少來給我們傳統產業來協助他們\n606072\t624401\t好的好不好好好那你大概多久時間可以給本席一個月內給你一個月內好那會提升比例嗎給我們的傳統產業我們會做一個整體的研究跟規劃我也會找經濟部一起來討論對然後朝提升的方向對不對\n627095\t640845\t對 我們會怎麼樣強化好 那接下來最後一個議題本席每一年都要請問你但是我真的蠻憂心也就是針對於推動性平等的這個成效\n642186\t663741\t我們看到勞動部的調查2024年的女性平均薪資327塊男性389 女性比男性要多工作58天才能夠達到男女全年薪資的相同因此同酬日2月27日 較去年只有增加兩天但是本席給你一個類別來作為討論\n667723\t673129\t的範例 電子零組件的製造業為例 2020年的男性是668塊女性只有多少 諸位\n678558\t702251\t393元他的相差41%在2023年以及2019年呢分別上升了1.9跟3.2%我請教主委在結果論來說我們男女同工不同酬的情況惡劣你國發會要怎麼樣去提升推動性別平等的一個成效請教主委\n704337\t729688\t這個我可能要找我會來找那個勞動部來討論一下看看怎麼樣這到底細節是什麼原因我們針對原因來對你是整個產業的總指揮那你今天針對這個我們每一年都跟你討論同工不同酬女性的薪資差別那麼多\n731206\t757994\t每一個部會的總total是由勞動部來調查那總政策應該在你的國防會所以我還是具體建議因為我每一年一定會提出這個議題但是我們看不到它的一個均衡性所以本期希望因為每一個勞動者都是我們非常重要的職場沒有理由讓女性跟男性差別這麼大\n759215\t765602\t所以本席具體要求相關部會你是總領航者你必須要跟他們去討論怎麼樣讓男女能夠來做均權均衡才能夠達到整個產業勞動力的一個均衡嘛一個向上提升嘛\n779836\t790968\t我來瞭解一下因為我自己待過八家公司再加上現在政府都沒有男女的薪資之別薪資就是薪資主委你講到這個問題實在太離譜了我們去理解一下對不對已經勞動部的數字調查告訴你你還說沒有\n799175\t812998\t沒有我的意思是說我們要去找出他的真正核心問題點這個就對了核心問題點到底是在哪裡就我了解上市櫃公司也都沒有這樣的問題所以我們得把你現在在政府部門做事情\n814025\t819207\t你有權利做政策的一個決定委員我必須講我不去了解問題的核心在哪裡我解不了問題當然這是你的職責啊我不能用通用性來看待對這是你的職責所以你要去了解為什麼每一年調查出來的資訊是如此\n834016\t856272\t所以就是問題沒解決啊謝謝委員好不好你說你願意核心去了解我非常的認同你用心多久時間可以告訴我們好不好這個至少要兩個月啦因為我很細節的去看它你好好用心去把它了解原因我們現在能夠在你的任內真的解決這個問題嘛好不好好的好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 楊群發言 邀請主委劉主委楊委員早主委好\n台積電董監事經理人持股的明細當中我們可以很顯示看出國發基金是台積電單一的最大股東它持有是6.38%的一個股份那麼近期台積電也宣布擴大對美國的投資計畫\n引發了外界對於技術外流及國家安全的一個關注那麼主委你也曾經談過你要堅持的是最新的技術不會過去對不對你也說最關鍵的技術不准過去對不對那同時你還有一個三大原則之一也就是國家安全為優先是不是如此\n是的到目前為止你仍舊是依這個原則嗎是不是是的這個我跟郭部長彼此之間有共識彼此之間的共識所以我們統計只有統計到113年的前三季那麼台積電的股利收入是高達247.9億元這是在113年的第三季那如果整年度來算應該可以達到\n所以对国家的贡献可以说财政贡献是非常的好但是在这样的一个情况之下我要请教主委台积电的技术领先性是其竞争优势的关键即使遵守着\n主委你對外說的也就是赴美投資N-1的規定仍可以導致美國半導體製造業能力的一個提升這是外界現在都在看的一個方向那進而也削弱了台灣在全球半導體供應鏈中的一個地位因為是我們的護國神山所以國防會你認為\n在台積電赴美投資N-1就能夠保證保護台灣的角色地位嗎請主委說明我跟委員報告台積電在南京設廠20年他沒有任何機密外洩反倒是我們可以看到其他的公司反而有控告一些員工把機密帶到對岸去\n所以機密會不會外洩完全在一家公司的管控做得好不好那我的了解台積電現在內部所有的電腦是沒有硬碟的也沒有USB的它完全是在雲端裡面它的資料是保護得非常完整所以我對台積電做技術關鍵技術的保密我是目前是信心是很高的\n信心是很高所以換句話說我們還是維持您所說的N-1這個情形就像微軟在這邊有研發中心IBM有研發中心可是他們從來沒有辦法我們從來拿不到因為每一個企業都有自己的機密管理的能力當然因為這個是他吃飯的最基本他不可能把他的飯碗砸掉\n不可能把那個範圍砸掉再請主委針對本席的提問也就是說目前政府告訴我們的是以N-1的這個方向跟立場是不是還是維持目前我們是維持的目前是維持本席就要提問也就是政府的立場政府的立場還是N-1的這個立場嗎是的是的喔好所以因此呢本席要因為大家\n對台積電從開始到現在大家都號稱是護國神山所以我們仍舊希望怎麼樣能夠保護台灣讓台灣在整個的這個立場上還是都是佔非常重要的角色這是我相信所有的國人大家都很期待我們也希望政府的立場說的跟執行的是一致的 是嗎是的\n接下來本席要請教我們針對於整個產業因為主委你也非常清楚本席不斷的在跟你討論我們除了AI我們除了高科技那最重要的我們台灣的傳統產業尤其本席來自於中部地區我們的機械手工具機工具機零組件\n這是也是台灣非常重要的護國神山尤其我們在組裝方面都能夠有較低的成本去跟世界競爭這也是為我們國家爭取了很多的外匯那所以沒有理由不照顧他們本期跟你討論\n2月13號的時候提出的2025年經濟展望的報告當中我們看到主要機構它測試我們今年的經濟成長大概介於在2.5%到3.42%那主計總數說可以超過3%以上但根據我們過去去年工具機的產業它的是衰退將近兩成\n營建業受政策及資金的影響 開工的量是萎縮的所以許多的中小企業根本沒有辦法生存不僅如此 我們的內需市場比較低迷比如說我們的餐飲 零售業也面臨著消費力不足的困境\n所以GDP整體雖然有成長 但是它是集中在少數高科技的產業其他的產業 尤其傳統產業 它的通貨指數是在節節的上升所以本席要請教 國發會您是產業政策的總指揮\n產業政策總指揮面臨到AI的產業熱度的高漲但是我們傳統產業卻陷入寒冬這樣子的一個產業結構的極端發展已經嚴重的影響到整個經濟性的穩定度政府你有什麼樣的對策呢請教\n這個部分我們有幾個幾個方向在跟產業溝通當然最主要我們還是要仰賴經濟部一起合作那第一個部分就是通路的部分我們有跟那個工具機協會那個有稍微那個那個陳我們有稍微有談到我們希望協助他們去做通路的建設\n那舉個例子,現在供給機成長速度比較快的市場在印度那我們怎麼樣協助他們設立一個通路讓台灣的產業可以賣進去第二個是高質化的改變,包括美國通路的掌握其實我們都有一系列在探討那我們也希望協助他們進入一個規模化然後更具規模競爭力在研發跟在技術上面\n那另外我們也討論到怎麼樣去讓協助他們在我們現在主要的控制機台是來自日本跟德國怎麼樣進入盡快的到國產化來做這個事情因為對岸也在做這件事情所以你現在講到了這個部分本席要提醒\n像我們這一次在南港展出我們的這個工具機手工具機機械類別以及零組件大家非常的用心我們接單的成績非常好這是我們電機的一個平台但是我們憂心的是什麼關稅問題我們更憂心到匯率問題\n這兩項是國防會你身為產業的總指揮官你必須要去跟相關單位去協助解決我們產業所碰到的重要問題關鍵點因為匯率不是我產業自己可以去決定\n關稅也不是我廠家可以自己去決定那他需要靠政府所以政府你到底在我們整個產業的這個比例上面你要怎麼樣\n提拨百分之多少來給我們的傳統產業來協助政策方向是有但是我們自己要努力可是我們碰到這非我所因素的條件是政府必須要做產業的靠山嘛對不對\n對 所以我們現在有出口的融資的補助協助他們在 不是補助 就是的協助那我們協助他們在融資上面出口的融資成本比較低的一些幫助讓他們在出口上面可以降低他的壓力\n那我們會針對這一點我們再來加強看看有沒有什麼可以更好的方案本席希望聽到你精進的方案因為已經進入寒冬這是我們國家最重要的產業經濟命脈就業人口多數在這一環所以本席希望您給本席您將你精進的方案給本席你預計你一定要提升百分之多少來給我們傳統產業來協助他們\n好的好不好好好那你大概多久時間可以給本席一個月內給你一個月內好那會提升比例嗎給我們的傳統產業我們會做一個整體的研究跟規劃我也會找經濟部一起來討論對然後朝提升的方向對不對\n對 我們會怎麼樣強化好 那接下來最後一個議題本席每一年都要請問你但是我真的蠻憂心也就是針對於推動性平等的這個成效\n我們看到勞動部的調查2024年的女性平均薪資327塊男性389 女性比男性要多工作58天才能夠達到男女全年薪資的相同因此同酬日2月27日 較去年只有增加兩天但是本席給你一個類別來作為討論\n的範例 電子零組件的製造業為例 2020年的男性是668塊女性只有多少 諸位\n393元他的相差41%在2023年以及2019年呢分別上升了1.9跟3.2%我請教主委在結果論來說我們男女同工不同酬的情況惡劣你國發會要怎麼樣去提升推動性別平等的一個成效請教主委\n這個我可能要找我會來找那個勞動部來討論一下看看怎麼樣這到底細節是什麼原因我們針對原因來對你是整個產業的總指揮那你今天針對這個我們每一年都跟你討論同工不同酬女性的薪資差別那麼多\n每一個部會的總total是由勞動部來調查那總政策應該在你的國防會所以我還是具體建議因為我每一年一定會提出這個議題但是我們看不到它的一個均衡性所以本期希望因為每一個勞動者都是我們非常重要的職場沒有理由讓女性跟男性差別這麼大\n所以本席具體要求相關部會你是總領航者你必須要跟他們去討論怎麼樣讓男女能夠來做均權均衡才能夠達到整個產業勞動力的一個均衡嘛一個向上提升嘛\n我來瞭解一下因為我自己待過八家公司再加上現在政府都沒有男女的薪資之別薪資就是薪資主委你講到這個問題實在太離譜了我們去理解一下對不對已經勞動部的數字調查告訴你你還說沒有\n沒有我的意思是說我們要去找出他的真正核心問題點這個就對了核心問題點到底是在哪裡就我了解上市櫃公司也都沒有這樣的問題所以我們得把你現在在政府部門做事情\n你有權利做政策的一個決定委員我必須講我不去了解問題的核心在哪裡我解不了問題當然這是你的職責啊我不能用通用性來看待對這是你的職責所以你要去了解為什麼每一年調查出來的資訊是如此\n所以就是問題沒解決啊謝謝委員好不好你說你願意核心去了解我非常的認同你用心多久時間可以告訴我們好不好這個至少要兩個月啦因為我很細節的去看它你好好用心去把它了解原因我們現在能夠在你的任內真的解決這個問題嘛好不好好的好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.512 --> 00:20.777\n謝謝主席楊群發言邀請主委劉主委楊委員早主委好\n\n00:21.618 --> 00:43.893\n台積電董監事經理人持股的明細當中我們可以很顯示看出國發基金是台積電單一的最大股東它持有是6.38%的一個股份那麼近期台積電也宣布擴大對美國的投資計畫\n\n00:45.194 --> 01:14.600\n引發了外界對於技術外流及國家安全的一個關注那麼主委你也曾經談過你要堅持的是最新的技術不會過去對不對你也說最關鍵的技術不准過去對不對那同時你還有一個三大原則之一也就是國家安全為優先是不是如此\n\n01:16.286 --> 01:36.530\n是的到目前為止你仍舊是依這個原則嗎是不是是的這個我跟郭部長彼此之間有共識彼此之間的共識所以我們統計只有統計到113年的前三季那麼台積電的股利收入是高達247.9億元這是在113年的第三季那如果整年度來算應該可以達到\n\n01:46.771 --> 02:06.996\n所以对国家的贡献可以说财政贡献是非常的好但是在这样的一个情况之下我要请教主委台积电的技术领先性是其竞争优势的关键即使遵守着\n\n02:08.156 --> 02:31.808\n主委你對外說的也就是赴美投資N-1的規定仍可以導致美國半導體製造業能力的一個提升這是外界現在都在看的一個方向那進而也削弱了台灣在全球半導體供應鏈中的一個地位因為是我們的護國神山所以國防會你認為\n\n02:36.690 --> 03:02.736\n在台積電赴美投資N-1就能夠保證保護台灣的角色地位嗎請主委說明我跟委員報告台積電在南京設廠20年他沒有任何機密外洩反倒是我們可以看到其他的公司反而有控告一些員工把機密帶到對岸去\n\n03:03.976 --> 03:25.075\n所以機密會不會外洩完全在一家公司的管控做得好不好那我的了解台積電現在內部所有的電腦是沒有硬碟的也沒有USB的它完全是在雲端裡面它的資料是保護得非常完整所以我對台積電做技術關鍵技術的保密我是目前是信心是很高的\n\n03:25.583 --> 03:48.033\n信心是很高所以換句話說我們還是維持您所說的N-1這個情形就像微軟在這邊有研發中心IBM有研發中心可是他們從來沒有辦法我們從來拿不到因為每一個企業都有自己的機密管理的能力當然因為這個是他吃飯的最基本他不可能把他的飯碗砸掉\n\n03:49.261 --> 04:12.276\n不可能把那個範圍砸掉再請主委針對本席的提問也就是說目前政府告訴我們的是以N-1的這個方向跟立場是不是還是維持目前我們是維持的目前是維持本席就要提問也就是政府的立場政府的立場還是N-1的這個立場嗎是的是的喔好所以因此呢本席要因為大家\n\n04:20.061 --> 04:46.448\n對台積電從開始到現在大家都號稱是護國神山所以我們仍舊希望怎麼樣能夠保護台灣讓台灣在整個的這個立場上還是都是佔非常重要的角色這是我相信所有的國人大家都很期待我們也希望政府的立場說的跟執行的是一致的是嗎是的\n\n04:48.429 --> 05:11.127\n接下來本席要請教我們針對於整個產業因為主委你也非常清楚本席不斷的在跟你討論我們除了AI我們除了高科技那最重要的我們台灣的傳統產業尤其本席來自於中部地區我們的機械手工具機工具機零組件\n\n05:12.328 --> 05:29.466\n這是也是台灣非常重要的護國神山尤其我們在組裝方面都能夠有較低的成本去跟世界競爭這也是為我們國家爭取了很多的外匯那所以沒有理由不照顧他們本期跟你討論\n\n05:30.687 --> 05:41.957\n2月13號的時候提出的2025年經濟展望的報告當中我們看到主要機構它測試我們今年的經濟成長大概介於在2.5%到3.42%那主計總數說可以超過3%以上但根據我們過去去年工具機的產業它的是衰退將近兩成\n\n05:58.430 --> 06:05.996\n營建業受政策及資金的影響開工的量是萎縮的所以許多的中小企業根本沒有辦法生存不僅如此我們的內需市場比較低迷比如說我們的餐飲零售業也面臨著消費力不足的困境\n\n06:20.186 --> 06:40.277\n所以GDP整體雖然有成長但是它是集中在少數高科技的產業其他的產業尤其傳統產業它的通貨指數是在節節的上升所以本席要請教國發會您是產業政策的總指揮\n\n06:41.317 --> 06:45.141\n產業政策總指揮面臨到AI的產業熱度的高漲但是我們傳統產業卻陷入寒冬這樣子的一個產業結構的極端發展已經嚴重的影響到整個經濟性的穩定度政府你有什麼樣的對策呢請教\n\n07:04.169 --> 07:26.096\n這個部分我們有幾個幾個方向在跟產業溝通當然最主要我們還是要仰賴經濟部一起合作那第一個部分就是通路的部分我們有跟那個工具機協會那個有稍微那個那個陳我們有稍微有談到我們希望協助他們去做通路的建設\n\n07:26.956 --> 07:50.203\n那舉個例子,現在供給機成長速度比較快的市場在印度那我們怎麼樣協助他們設立一個通路讓台灣的產業可以賣進去第二個是高質化的改變,包括美國通路的掌握其實我們都有一系列在探討那我們也希望協助他們進入一個規模化然後更具規模競爭力在研發跟在技術上面\n\n07:50.803 --> 08:04.052\n那另外我們也討論到怎麼樣去讓協助他們在我們現在主要的控制機台是來自日本跟德國怎麼樣進入盡快的到國產化來做這個事情因為對岸也在做這件事情所以你現在講到了這個部分本席要提醒\n\n08:06.994 --> 08:24.748\n像我們這一次在南港展出我們的這個工具機手工具機機械類別以及零組件大家非常的用心我們接單的成績非常好這是我們電機的一個平台但是我們憂心的是什麼關稅問題我們更憂心到匯率問題\n\n08:30.232 --> 08:47.864\n這兩項是國防會你身為產業的總指揮官你必須要去跟相關單位去協助解決我們產業所碰到的重要問題關鍵點因為匯率不是我產業自己可以去決定\n\n08:49.946 --> 08:57.451\n關稅也不是我廠家可以自己去決定那他需要靠政府所以政府你到底在我們整個產業的這個比例上面你要怎麼樣\n\n09:03.567 --> 09:20.012\n提拨百分之多少來給我們的傳統產業來協助政策方向是有但是我們自己要努力可是我們碰到這非我所因素的條件是政府必須要做產業的靠山嘛對不對\n\n09:21.152 --> 09:35.900\n對所以我們現在有出口的融資的補助協助他們在不是補助就是的協助那我們協助他們在融資上面出口的融資成本比較低的一些幫助讓他們在出口上面可以降低他的壓力\n\n09:36.360 --> 10:02.671\n那我們會針對這一點我們再來加強看看有沒有什麼可以更好的方案本席希望聽到你精進的方案因為已經進入寒冬這是我們國家最重要的產業經濟命脈就業人口多數在這一環所以本席希望您給本席您將你精進的方案給本席你預計你一定要提升百分之多少來給我們傳統產業來協助他們\n\n10:06.072 --> 10:24.401\n好的好不好好好那你大概多久時間可以給本席一個月內給你一個月內好那會提升比例嗎給我們的傳統產業我們會做一個整體的研究跟規劃我也會找經濟部一起來討論對然後朝提升的方向對不對\n\n10:27.095 --> 10:40.845\n對我們會怎麼樣強化好那接下來最後一個議題本席每一年都要請問你但是我真的蠻憂心也就是針對於推動性平等的這個成效\n\n10:42.186 --> 11:03.741\n我們看到勞動部的調查2024年的女性平均薪資327塊男性389女性比男性要多工作58天才能夠達到男女全年薪資的相同因此同酬日2月27日較去年只有增加兩天但是本席給你一個類別來作為討論\n\n11:07.723 --> 11:13.129\n的範例電子零組件的製造業為例2020年的男性是668塊女性只有多少諸位\n\n11:18.558 --> 11:42.251\n393元他的相差41%在2023年以及2019年呢分別上升了1.9跟3.2%我請教主委在結果論來說我們男女同工不同酬的情況惡劣你國發會要怎麼樣去提升推動性別平等的一個成效請教主委\n\n11:44.337 --> 12:09.688\n這個我可能要找我會來找那個勞動部來討論一下看看怎麼樣這到底細節是什麼原因我們針對原因來對你是整個產業的總指揮那你今天針對這個我們每一年都跟你討論同工不同酬女性的薪資差別那麼多\n\n12:11.206 --> 12:37.994\n每一個部會的總total是由勞動部來調查那總政策應該在你的國防會所以我還是具體建議因為我每一年一定會提出這個議題但是我們看不到它的一個均衡性所以本期希望因為每一個勞動者都是我們非常重要的職場沒有理由讓女性跟男性差別這麼大\n\n12:39.215 --> 12:45.602\n所以本席具體要求相關部會你是總領航者你必須要跟他們去討論怎麼樣讓男女能夠來做均權均衡才能夠達到整個產業勞動力的一個均衡嘛一個向上提升嘛\n\n12:59.836 --> 13:10.968\n我來瞭解一下因為我自己待過八家公司再加上現在政府都沒有男女的薪資之別薪資就是薪資主委你講到這個問題實在太離譜了我們去理解一下對不對已經勞動部的數字調查告訴你你還說沒有\n\n13:19.175 --> 13:32.998\n沒有我的意思是說我們要去找出他的真正核心問題點這個就對了核心問題點到底是在哪裡就我了解上市櫃公司也都沒有這樣的問題所以我們得把你現在在政府部門做事情\n\n13:34.025 --> 13:39.207\n你有權利做政策的一個決定委員我必須講我不去了解問題的核心在哪裡我解不了問題當然這是你的職責啊我不能用通用性來看待對這是你的職責所以你要去了解為什麼每一年調查出來的資訊是如此\n\n13:54.016 --> 14:16.272\n所以就是問題沒解決啊謝謝委員好不好你說你願意核心去了解我非常的認同你用心多久時間可以告訴我們好不好這個至少要兩個月啦因為我很細節的去看它你好好用心去把它了解原因我們現在能夠在你的任內真的解決這個問題嘛好不好好的好謝謝好謝謝謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.512,"end":20.777,"text":"謝謝主席 楊群發言 邀請主委劉主委楊委員早主委好"},{"start":21.618,"end":43.893,"text":"台積電董監事經理人持股的明細當中我們可以很顯示看出國發基金是台積電單一的最大股東它持有是6.38%的一個股份那麼近期台積電也宣布擴大對美國的投資計畫"},{"start":45.194,"end":74.6,"text":"引發了外界對於技術外流及國家安全的一個關注那麼主委你也曾經談過你要堅持的是最新的技術不會過去對不對你也說最關鍵的技術不准過去對不對那同時你還有一個三大原則之一也就是國家安全為優先是不是如此"},{"start":76.286,"end":96.53,"text":"是的到目前為止你仍舊是依這個原則嗎是不是是的這個我跟郭部長彼此之間有共識彼此之間的共識所以我們統計只有統計到113年的前三季那麼台積電的股利收入是高達247.9億元這是在113年的第三季那如果整年度來算應該可以達到"},{"start":106.771,"end":126.996,"text":"所以对国家的贡献可以说财政贡献是非常的好但是在这样的一个情况之下我要请教主委台积电的技术领先性是其竞争优势的关键即使遵守着"},{"start":128.156,"end":151.808,"text":"主委你對外說的也就是赴美投資N-1的規定仍可以導致美國半導體製造業能力的一個提升這是外界現在都在看的一個方向那進而也削弱了台灣在全球半導體供應鏈中的一個地位因為是我們的護國神山所以國防會你認為"},{"start":156.69,"end":182.736,"text":"在台積電赴美投資N-1就能夠保證保護台灣的角色地位嗎請主委說明我跟委員報告台積電在南京設廠20年他沒有任何機密外洩反倒是我們可以看到其他的公司反而有控告一些員工把機密帶到對岸去"},{"start":183.976,"end":205.075,"text":"所以機密會不會外洩完全在一家公司的管控做得好不好那我的了解台積電現在內部所有的電腦是沒有硬碟的也沒有USB的它完全是在雲端裡面它的資料是保護得非常完整所以我對台積電做技術關鍵技術的保密我是目前是信心是很高的"},{"start":205.583,"end":228.033,"text":"信心是很高所以換句話說我們還是維持您所說的N-1這個情形就像微軟在這邊有研發中心IBM有研發中心可是他們從來沒有辦法我們從來拿不到因為每一個企業都有自己的機密管理的能力當然因為這個是他吃飯的最基本他不可能把他的飯碗砸掉"},{"start":229.261,"end":252.276,"text":"不可能把那個範圍砸掉再請主委針對本席的提問也就是說目前政府告訴我們的是以N-1的這個方向跟立場是不是還是維持目前我們是維持的目前是維持本席就要提問也就是政府的立場政府的立場還是N-1的這個立場嗎是的是的喔好所以因此呢本席要因為大家"},{"start":260.061,"end":286.448,"text":"對台積電從開始到現在大家都號稱是護國神山所以我們仍舊希望怎麼樣能夠保護台灣讓台灣在整個的這個立場上還是都是佔非常重要的角色這是我相信所有的國人大家都很期待我們也希望政府的立場說的跟執行的是一致的 是嗎是的"},{"start":288.429,"end":311.127,"text":"接下來本席要請教我們針對於整個產業因為主委你也非常清楚本席不斷的在跟你討論我們除了AI我們除了高科技那最重要的我們台灣的傳統產業尤其本席來自於中部地區我們的機械手工具機工具機零組件"},{"start":312.328,"end":329.466,"text":"這是也是台灣非常重要的護國神山尤其我們在組裝方面都能夠有較低的成本去跟世界競爭這也是為我們國家爭取了很多的外匯那所以沒有理由不照顧他們本期跟你討論"},{"start":330.687,"end":341.957,"text":"2月13號的時候提出的2025年經濟展望的報告當中我們看到主要機構它測試我們今年的經濟成長大概介於在2.5%到3.42%那主計總數說可以超過3%以上但根據我們過去去年工具機的產業它的是衰退將近兩成"},{"start":358.43,"end":365.996,"text":"營建業受政策及資金的影響 開工的量是萎縮的所以許多的中小企業根本沒有辦法生存不僅如此 我們的內需市場比較低迷比如說我們的餐飲 零售業也面臨著消費力不足的困境"},{"start":380.186,"end":400.277,"text":"所以GDP整體雖然有成長 但是它是集中在少數高科技的產業其他的產業 尤其傳統產業 它的通貨指數是在節節的上升所以本席要請教 國發會您是產業政策的總指揮"},{"start":401.317,"end":405.141,"text":"產業政策總指揮面臨到AI的產業熱度的高漲但是我們傳統產業卻陷入寒冬這樣子的一個產業結構的極端發展已經嚴重的影響到整個經濟性的穩定度政府你有什麼樣的對策呢請教"},{"start":424.169,"end":446.096,"text":"這個部分我們有幾個幾個方向在跟產業溝通當然最主要我們還是要仰賴經濟部一起合作那第一個部分就是通路的部分我們有跟那個工具機協會那個有稍微那個那個陳我們有稍微有談到我們希望協助他們去做通路的建設"},{"start":446.956,"end":470.203,"text":"那舉個例子,現在供給機成長速度比較快的市場在印度那我們怎麼樣協助他們設立一個通路讓台灣的產業可以賣進去第二個是高質化的改變,包括美國通路的掌握其實我們都有一系列在探討那我們也希望協助他們進入一個規模化然後更具規模競爭力在研發跟在技術上面"},{"start":470.803,"end":484.052,"text":"那另外我們也討論到怎麼樣去讓協助他們在我們現在主要的控制機台是來自日本跟德國怎麼樣進入盡快的到國產化來做這個事情因為對岸也在做這件事情所以你現在講到了這個部分本席要提醒"},{"start":486.994,"end":504.748,"text":"像我們這一次在南港展出我們的這個工具機手工具機機械類別以及零組件大家非常的用心我們接單的成績非常好這是我們電機的一個平台但是我們憂心的是什麼關稅問題我們更憂心到匯率問題"},{"start":510.232,"end":527.864,"text":"這兩項是國防會你身為產業的總指揮官你必須要去跟相關單位去協助解決我們產業所碰到的重要問題關鍵點因為匯率不是我產業自己可以去決定"},{"start":529.946,"end":537.451,"text":"關稅也不是我廠家可以自己去決定那他需要靠政府所以政府你到底在我們整個產業的這個比例上面你要怎麼樣"},{"start":543.567,"end":560.012,"text":"提拨百分之多少來給我們的傳統產業來協助政策方向是有但是我們自己要努力可是我們碰到這非我所因素的條件是政府必須要做產業的靠山嘛對不對"},{"start":561.152,"end":575.9,"text":"對 所以我們現在有出口的融資的補助協助他們在 不是補助 就是的協助那我們協助他們在融資上面出口的融資成本比較低的一些幫助讓他們在出口上面可以降低他的壓力"},{"start":576.36,"end":602.671,"text":"那我們會針對這一點我們再來加強看看有沒有什麼可以更好的方案本席希望聽到你精進的方案因為已經進入寒冬這是我們國家最重要的產業經濟命脈就業人口多數在這一環所以本席希望您給本席您將你精進的方案給本席你預計你一定要提升百分之多少來給我們傳統產業來協助他們"},{"start":606.072,"end":624.401,"text":"好的好不好好好那你大概多久時間可以給本席一個月內給你一個月內好那會提升比例嗎給我們的傳統產業我們會做一個整體的研究跟規劃我也會找經濟部一起來討論對然後朝提升的方向對不對"},{"start":627.095,"end":640.845,"text":"對 我們會怎麼樣強化好 那接下來最後一個議題本席每一年都要請問你但是我真的蠻憂心也就是針對於推動性平等的這個成效"},{"start":642.186,"end":663.741,"text":"我們看到勞動部的調查2024年的女性平均薪資327塊男性389 女性比男性要多工作58天才能夠達到男女全年薪資的相同因此同酬日2月27日 較去年只有增加兩天但是本席給你一個類別來作為討論"},{"start":667.723,"end":673.129,"text":"的範例 電子零組件的製造業為例 2020年的男性是668塊女性只有多少 諸位"},{"start":678.558,"end":702.251,"text":"393元他的相差41%在2023年以及2019年呢分別上升了1.9跟3.2%我請教主委在結果論來說我們男女同工不同酬的情況惡劣你國發會要怎麼樣去提升推動性別平等的一個成效請教主委"},{"start":704.337,"end":729.688,"text":"這個我可能要找我會來找那個勞動部來討論一下看看怎麼樣這到底細節是什麼原因我們針對原因來對你是整個產業的總指揮那你今天針對這個我們每一年都跟你討論同工不同酬女性的薪資差別那麼多"},{"start":731.206,"end":757.994,"text":"每一個部會的總total是由勞動部來調查那總政策應該在你的國防會所以我還是具體建議因為我每一年一定會提出這個議題但是我們看不到它的一個均衡性所以本期希望因為每一個勞動者都是我們非常重要的職場沒有理由讓女性跟男性差別這麼大"},{"start":759.215,"end":765.602,"text":"所以本席具體要求相關部會你是總領航者你必須要跟他們去討論怎麼樣讓男女能夠來做均權均衡才能夠達到整個產業勞動力的一個均衡嘛一個向上提升嘛"},{"start":779.836,"end":790.968,"text":"我來瞭解一下因為我自己待過八家公司再加上現在政府都沒有男女的薪資之別薪資就是薪資主委你講到這個問題實在太離譜了我們去理解一下對不對已經勞動部的數字調查告訴你你還說沒有"},{"start":799.175,"end":812.998,"text":"沒有我的意思是說我們要去找出他的真正核心問題點這個就對了核心問題點到底是在哪裡就我了解上市櫃公司也都沒有這樣的問題所以我們得把你現在在政府部門做事情"},{"start":814.025,"end":819.207,"text":"你有權利做政策的一個決定委員我必須講我不去了解問題的核心在哪裡我解不了問題當然這是你的職責啊我不能用通用性來看待對這是你的職責所以你要去了解為什麼每一年調查出來的資訊是如此"},{"start":834.016,"end":856.272,"text":"所以就是問題沒解決啊謝謝委員好不好你說你願意核心去了解我非常的認同你用心多久時間可以告訴我們好不好這個至少要兩個月啦因為我很細節的去看它你好好用心去把它了解原因我們現在能夠在你的任內真的解決這個問題嘛好不好好的好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":273,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時12分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請主委。"],["主席：劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：楊委員早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委好。在台積電董監事經理人持股明細當中，我們可以很明顯看出國發基金是台積電單一的最大股東，持有6.38%的股份，近期台積電也宣布擴大對美國的投資計畫，引發了外界對於技術外流及國家安全的關注。","主委，你也曾經談過，你堅持的是最新的技術不會過去，對不對？你也說最關鍵的技術不准過去，對不對？同時，三大原則之一還有一個，也就是國家安全為優先，是不是如此？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：到目前為止，你仍舊是依這個原則，是不是？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是，我跟郭部長彼此之間有共識。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是彼此之間的共識。所以我們只有統計到113年前三季，台積電的股利收入高達247.9億元，這是在113年第三季。如果整年度來算應該可以達到389億元，所以對國家的財政貢獻可以說非常好。但是在這樣一個情況之下，我要請教主委，台積電的技術領先性是其競爭優勢的關鍵，即使遵守主委你對外說的，也就是赴美投資N-1的規定，仍可以導致美國半導體製造業能力的提升，這是外界現在都在看的方向，進而也削弱臺灣在全球半導體供應鏈中的地位，因為它是我們的護國神山，所以國發會認為，台積電赴美投資N-1，就能夠保證、保護臺灣的角色地位嗎？請主委說明。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，台積電在南京設廠20年，沒有任何機密外洩，反倒是我們可以看到其他的公司控告一些員工把機密帶到對岸去，所以機密會不會外洩完全在於一家公司的管控做得好不好。據我的了解，台積電現在內部所有的電腦是沒有硬碟的、也沒有USB，它完全是在雲端裡面，它的資料保護非常完整，所以我對台積電做關鍵技術的保密，目前我的信心是很高的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：信心很高？所以換句話說，還是維持您所說的N-1？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個情形就像微軟在這邊有研發中心，IBM有研發中心，可是我們從來拿不到，因為每一個企業都有自己的機密管理能力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為這是它吃飯的最基本，它不可能把它的飯碗砸掉。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不可能把它的飯碗砸掉？再請主委針對本席的提問，也就目前政府告訴我們是以N-1的方向跟立場，是否還是維持？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前我們是維持的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：目前是維持？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席就要提醒……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：而且在技術上，台積電也做得到。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：也就是政府還是N-1的立場嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，因為大家對台積電從開始到現在都稱它是護國神山，所以我們仍舊希望怎麼樣能夠保護臺灣，讓臺灣在整個市場上都是占非常重要的角色，我相信所有的國人大家都很期待，我們也希望政府的立場，說的和執行的是一致的，是嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，接下來，本席要請教，針對於整個產業，因為主委你也非常清楚，本席不斷在跟你討論，除了AI、除了高科技，最重要的就是我們臺灣的傳統產業。本席來自於中部地區，我們的機械、手工具機、工具機、零組件，這些也是臺灣非常重要的護國神山。尤其我們在組裝方面都能夠有較低的成本去跟世界競爭，這也為我們國家爭取了很多的外匯，所以沒有理由不照顧他們。","本席跟你討論，2月13號提出的2025年經濟展望的報告當中，我們看到主要機構測試我們今年的經濟成長大概介於在2.5%到3.42%，主計總處說可以超過3%以上。但根據統計，去年工具機的產業衰退將近兩成，營建業受政策及資金的影響，開工量是萎縮的，所以許多中小企業根本沒有辦法生存。不僅如此，我們的內需市場比較低迷，比如餐飲、零售業也面臨消費力不足的困境，所以GDP整體雖然有成長，但它是集中在少數高科技的產業，其他的產業，尤其傳統產業的痛苦指數節節上升。","所以本席要請教，國發會是產業政策的總指揮，面臨到AI產業熱度的高漲，但是我們的傳統產業卻陷入寒冬，這樣子的產業結構極端發展，已經嚴重的影響到整個經濟性的穩定度，政府有什麼樣的對策呢？請教。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個部分，我們有幾個方向在跟產業溝通。當然最主要我們還是要仰賴經濟部一起合作，第一個就是通路的部分，我們有跟工具機協會稍微有談到，我們希望協助他們去做通路的建設，舉個例子，現在工具機成長速度比較快的市場在印度，我們怎麼樣協助他們設立一個通路，讓臺灣的產業可以賣進去。第二個是高值化的改變，包括美國通路的掌握，其實我們都有一系列在探討，我們也希望協助他們進入規模化，在研發跟技術上更具規模競爭力。另外，我們現在主要的控制機台是來自日本跟德國，我們也有討論到怎麼樣協助他們儘快進入到國產化，因為對岸也在做這件事情，我們有這一系列的探討……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委，你現在講到的這個部分，本席要提醒，像這一次在南港展出的工具機、手工具機、機械類別以及零組件，大家非常的用心，接單的成績非常好，這是我們奠基的一個平台，但是我們憂心的是什麼？關稅問題，我們更憂心匯率問題，這兩項是國發會身為產業的總指揮官，你必須要跟相關單位去協助解決我們產業所碰到的重要問題的關鍵點。因為匯率不是產業自己可以去決定的，關稅也不是廠家可以自己去決定的，這需要靠政府！所以政府在整個產業上要提撥多少的比例來協助我們的傳統產業？政策方向是有，我們自己也要努力，可是我們碰到這些非我所能控制的因素條件，是政府必須要做產業的靠山，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，所以我們現在有出口融資的協助，給予他們出口融資成本比較低的一些幫助，在出口上面可以降低壓力，我們會針對這一點再來加強看看有沒有什麼更好的方案。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席希望聽到精進的方案，因為已經進入寒冬，這是我們國家最重要的經濟產業命脈，就業人口多數在這一環，所以本席希望您將您的精進方案給本席，你預計一定要提升百分之多少來給我們傳統產業，來協助他們，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你大概多久時間可以給本席？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：一個月內給你。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一個月內？好，那會提升比例給我們的傳統產業？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們會做一個整體的研究跟規劃，我也會找經濟部一起來討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，然後朝提升的方向，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，看我們怎麼樣強化。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來最後一個議題本席每一年都要請問你，但是我真的滿憂心的。針對推動性別平等的成效，我們看到勞動部的調查，2024年的女性平均薪資327元，男性389元，女性需比男性多工作58天才能夠達到男女全年薪資相同，因此今年的同酬日為2月27日，較去年增加2天。但是本席給你一個類別來作為討論的範例，以電子零組件製造業為例，2024年男性是668元，女性只有393元，相差41%，較2023年以及2019年分別上升了1.9%跟3.2%。我請教主委，就結果論來說，男女同工不同酬的情況惡劣，國發會要怎麼樣去提升推動性別平等的成效？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我會找勞動部來討論一下，看看細節到底是什麼原因，我們針對原因分析以後來克服。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委，你是整個產業的總指揮，我們每一年都跟你討論同工不同酬，女性的薪資相差男性那麼多，每一個部會的總total是由勞動部來調查，而總政策應該在國發會，所以我還是具體建議，因為我每一年一定會提出這個議題，但是我們看不到它的均衡性！因為每一個勞動者都是我們非常重要的資產，沒有理由讓女性跟男性差別這麼大。所以本席具體要求，你是總領航者，你必須要跟相關部會去討論，怎麼樣讓男女能夠均權、均衡，才能夠達到整個產業勞動力的均衡，並向上提升嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的，我來了解一下，因為我自己待過8家公司，再加上現在政府，都沒有男女的薪資之別，薪資就是薪資，所以……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委，你講到這個問題實在太離譜了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們去理解一下到底背後……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：勞動部調查的數字已經告訴你，你還說沒有？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有，我的意思是說我們要去找出它真正的核心問題點。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個就對了，核心問題點到底是在哪裡？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就我了解，上市櫃公司也都沒有這樣的問題，所以我們得把這個核心問題點找出來……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在在政府部門做事情，你有權力做政策的決定……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我必須講，我不去了解問題的核心在哪裡我解不了問題，你要給我時間去了解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，這是你的職責。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我不能用通用性來看待，它一定是有問題……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，這是你的職責，所以你要去了解為什麼每一年調查出來的資訊是如此，所以就是問題沒解決啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員，我會把這個問題……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你說你願意去了解核心問題，我非常認同你的用心，多久時間可以告訴我們？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個至少要兩個月，因為我要很細節地去看它。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，你好好用心去了解原因，我們希望在你的任內真的能夠解決這個問題，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝。"],["主席：現在請陳亭妃委員做詢答，陳亭妃委員詢答完休息5分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","邱志偉","王鴻薇","賴瑞隆","蔡易餘","林倩綺","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃建賓","徐欣瑩","陳冠廷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00003"}}}