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{\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 282.127, \"end\": 282.347, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"仁\", \"start\": 282.347, \"end\": 283.068, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 283.068, \"end\": 283.088, \"score\": 0.999}]}, {\"start\": 284.91, \"end\": 300.584, \"text\": \"部內的同仁也包括我們其實相關的政策也會諮詢專家學者包括產業先包括勢勞工團體那我再請教部長就是您這三個月沒有築密的歲月裡有沒有好好珍惜自己\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 284.91, \"end\": 285.11, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 285.11, \"end\": 285.21, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 285.21, \"end\": 285.43, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"仁\", \"start\": 285.43, \"end\": 285.73, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 285.73, \"end\": 285.91, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 285.91, \"end\": 286.111, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"括\", \"start\": 286.111, \"end\": 286.351, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 286.351, \"end\": 286.471, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"霸\", \"start\": 715.92, \"end\": 716.08, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"凌\", \"start\": 716.08, \"end\": 716.28, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 716.28, \"end\": 716.741, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 716.741, \"end\": 716.861, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 716.861, \"end\": 716.941, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 716.941, \"end\": 717.001, \"score\": 0.671}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 717.001, \"end\": 717.102, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 717.102, \"end\": 717.242, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"侵\", \"start\": 717.242, \"end\": 717.442, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"害\", \"start\": 717.442, \"end\": 717.702, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 717.702, \"end\": 717.883, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 717.883, \"end\": 718.203, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 718.203, \"end\": 718.303, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 718.303, \"end\": 718.403, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 718.403, \"end\": 718.503, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 718.503, \"end\": 718.684, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 718.684, \"end\": 718.784, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 718.784, \"end\": 718.804, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 720.356, \"end\": 746.947, \"text\": \"那調查的部分還會有調查該有的人力所以這部分會是不太一樣的那當然接下來我們是希望如果治安法的修法有霸凌反霸凌防治專章之後這些都有相關的機制上面的規範對啊那好啦即便是調查沒有預防那你們這些勞檢員要去調查自己的這個顧用他們的人這個治安署有沒有做到預防\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 720.356, \"end\": 720.796, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 720.796, \"end\": 720.936, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 720.936, \"end\": 721.036, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 721.036, \"end\": 721.176, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"分\", 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\"text\": \"那這個也是另外一個問題啊所以我點出來這樣問題也沒有錯嘛你就是球員兼裁判自己調查自己啊如果涉及到的是這個機構裡面的最高負責人的話當然就設計上面我們會是希望有再由上級機關來做調查就又要就是所以這個專章所以我才清風法也是這樣子啊就是如果\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 748.072, \"end\": 748.752, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 748.752, \"end\": 748.932, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 748.932, \"end\": 749.112, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"另\", \"start\": 749.112, \"end\": 749.272, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 749.272, \"end\": 749.432, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 749.432, \"end\": 750.713, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 750.713, \"end\": 751.393, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 751.393, \"end\": 751.553, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 751.553, \"end\": 751.893, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 751.893, \"end\": 752.213, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": 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\"end\": 754.874, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 754.874, \"end\": 754.974, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 754.974, \"end\": 755.194, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 755.194, \"end\": 755.374, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 755.374, \"end\": 755.595, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 755.595, \"end\": 755.775, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 755.775, \"end\": 757.035, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 757.035, \"end\": 757.295, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 757.295, \"end\": 759.656, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"涉\", \"start\": 759.656, \"end\": 759.896, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 759.896, \"end\": 760.096, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 760.096, \"end\": 760.336, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 760.336, \"end\": 760.576, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 760.576, \"end\": 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\"end\": 796.079, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:11,521 --> 00:00:13,683\n謝謝主席麻煩請部長陳英文好部長好因為您上任以來本席有發現這段時間勞動部的政策好像大部分我們的觀察是左院長在對外發布的機率比較高\n\n2\n00:00:34,182 --> 00:00:54,817\n那我從來也很少就是說看到說有哪一家媒體有提到就是說部長自己對外說明這個所主政的勞動部將有這個什麼重大的這個計畫或改變例如說國定假日要增加勞退要提高那有條件的開放外籍勞工從事服務業等等\n\n3\n00:00:56,118 --> 00:01:19,017\n甚至是說像台中百貨公司氣爆事故的救援跟慰問傷患我們看到的大部分都是卓院長在指示優先照顧傷者保障勞工權益盡速調查事故原因等等我想這些很多行政院在發布集都要說明\n\n4\n00:01:20,198 --> 00:01:39,966\n呃感覺就是說勞團跟工商團體呃對於這個勞動部的這個角色溝通的這個管道就是好像比較弱一點這是有一些奇怪就感覺上有些奇怪然後那反而就是說對於在我們會比較常看到就是過去對於勞動部常有一些需要\n\n5\n00:01:42,067 --> 00:02:00,097\n這個補破網的工作有很多的報導金句例如說我不吃這一套啦不用恭喜我啦就按基金用途改革進行改革進行式等等或者是說沒動機跟理由迴避這些金句其實大家都反而非常的耳熟能詳這個報導是看到蠻多的那\n\n6\n00:02:04,660 --> 00:02:31,337\n再來我想要請教就是說部長接任之初喔特別卓院長有給您三個任務請教請問你還記得嗎第一個當然是處理霸凌的問題然後再來一個是處理部內的霸凌整頓的問題然後再來包括是希望能夠提出一個完整的勞工的政策然後也希望做出一些制度的改革\n\n7\n00:02:32,210 --> 00:02:57,255\n我想比較還原院長所用的文字就是說穩定勞動部內部同仁的情緒這個是他有講的那我想要請教就是說內部同仁情緒目前都穩定了嗎當然我們這段時間還是會有一些相關的申訴可是我們就是透過該處理的就去處理該面對就面對\n\n8\n00:02:58,611 --> 00:03:18,833\n我想這個內部同仁的情緒應該不只不單止就是之前的這個謝怡榮的事件應該還有很多可能有些被揭露有些在調查中有些是在進行中不為人知的我想這些情緒不曉得部長有沒有關注到\n\n9\n00:03:19,802 --> 00:03:40,595\n如果有相關的問題的話我想都可以提出來我想這個是很重要的第一個第一件事情部長有這樣提那再來就是要能夠健全友善合理的職場然後讓所有的勞工在安全環境中為國人效力那請問現在大家勞工們都安全了嗎\n\n10\n00:03:42,365 --> 00:03:57,115\n所以這部分我想昨天講當時的意思是就是針對我們要求治安法那針對職場霸凌的機制要來把它法制化這部分我們正在當然在進行中然後目前草案已經進入到最後的收尾的階段\n\n11\n00:03:57,355 --> 00:04:24,172\n我想這個部分大家都一直也都跟部長一直在努力那第三個就是在國家發展過程中對於所有產業人民的需求要提出完整的這個勞工政策那我想請教就是說目前這個部長主要你現在在推動的主要的政策是有哪些然後協助你擬定政策的這些核心人物又是哪些核心人物對\n\n12\n00:04:28,576 --> 00:04:43,088\n我現在是勞動部長當然我就是要對這些事情負責倒不是什麼核心人物不核心人物的問題那協助你這個就是說擬定決策啦就是的這些人當然部內的同仁很重要就是部內的同仁的\n\n13\n00:04:44,910 --> 00:05:00,584\n部內的同仁也包括我們其實相關的政策也會諮詢專家學者包括產業先包括勢勞工團體那我再請教部長就是您這三個月沒有築密的歲月裡有沒有好好珍惜自己\n\n14\n00:05:05,117 --> 00:05:33,204\n因為我去查過這個所有的部會很不幸的我沒有找到有任何一個部會的主任秘書一直可以懸缺三個月以上那我是很擔心啦就是說這個我倒要問問就是說勞動部你們這個內部的你們這些資深官員難道你們都不願意擔任部長的主秘嗎你們在幹什麼\n\n15\n00:05:36,892 --> 00:05:54,008\n我覺得我們這些相關重要的職缺確實我們有補了一些然後我覺得找到很不錯很適當的人選那可是也有一些持續的在找到在接觸然後在詢問中那我自己心裡也蠻急的\n\n16\n00:05:55,089 --> 00:06:22,768\n所以看起來部長蠻嚴格就是您的標準也真的很高這個是好事啦但是三個月的歲月那我們其實都很關心也特別我們過去也都是同事就是說部長是屬於這個輕壯派的部長但現在就是說以在卓內閣的這個放眼望去部長應該算是最年輕的應該是吧\n\n17\n00:06:25,356 --> 00:06:54,617\n我沒有去問因為有人已經不在了所以你應該是最年輕的那你跟這些可以就是說在輩分上是可以作為您的這個叔叔阿姨輩的這些高階文官那高階文官常常就是高學歷又經驗豐富那部長你如何去領導管理他們然後讓他們看見說你的這個能力然後可以信任你\n\n18\n00:06:56,189 --> 00:07:13,072\n因為我們其實都是會很擔心就是說也怕你在勞動部裡面被欺負啊然後或者被蒙蔽而不自知甚至被誤導那這個就是在政策的決策上就會發生很大的問題這個是我們擔心的沒有被欺負的問題我可以很肯定的\n\n19\n00:07:14,588 --> 00:07:33,340\n好沒有這個問題這是好事因為如果有人欺負你我們也會幫忙修理他幫忙導正那但是你如果有被蒙蔽的時候我們想幫忙就未必幫得上忙了這是我才我才就是本性比較\n\n20\n00:07:34,656 --> 00:07:46,384\n真正擔心的事情我覺得我們會把這個諮詢的管道盡量的多元然後來聽大家的意見那事實上不管最後的什麼決策我都是要負責的\n\n21\n00:07:47,892 --> 00:08:08,825\n我覺得有一些決策如果錯誤了你嘴巴講說你可以負責但是影響到很多勞工的權益的時候你嘴巴講你可以負責實際上你是沒有辦法負責的我必須要在這裡做這樣提醒雖然我今天的口氣很溫和但是呢我想有些問題是瑞麗的\n\n22\n00:08:10,786 --> 00:08:24,642\n所以我做這樣子的提醒那至於哪些部分被蒙蔽我想後續我還會再跟你持續溝通因為你如果繼續被蒙蔽那院長交付你的任務你就沒有辦法完成\n\n23\n00:08:26,184 --> 00:08:48,345\n那最近來進入一個實質的問題最近這個職場霸凌的案件還是層出不窮那以最近這個台大醫院某病房的護理站的例子似乎要認定成立了那實務上非常的不容易你們自己北分署的案子也是部長自己親自召集組成有公信力的這些外部委員那最後才能通過的嗎\n\n24\n00:08:49,286 --> 00:09:13,212\n好那而且是在責損一位部長之後然後才被認定成立喔所以部長你也才有機會坐上這個位置那我要請教的是說被霸凌的受害者如果因此罹患精神疾病算不算職業災害算不算這應該算了好你講的\n\n25\n00:09:15,666 --> 00:09:19,053\n这个要经过专业医学的专业认定对\n\n26\n00:09:19,548 --> 00:09:48,994\n好我想是這樣啦你的回答也沒錯就是畢竟但是這10年來其實大概只有認定25件而已我提供這個數據給部長參考那再來未來即將制定的這個霸凌專章是在他是很奇妙的他是長在職安法裡面那這是不是表示就是說勞動檢查機構將負責未來的這個霸凌調查跟檢查講到這裡我先請教部長就是說調查跟檢查的差別在哪裡\n\n27\n00:09:51,221 --> 00:10:08,656\n這當然不一樣對差別在哪裡檢查是對於我們的很多的防治的做法有沒有做到位必須進行檢查那調查當然就是進入到個案上面那到底發生的事情是什麼進行調查這當然是很不一樣所以其實一個是就是事前的預防跟事後的調查當然\n\n28\n00:10:10,197 --> 00:10:37,560\n那再來我要提醒就是說某事業單位的技術長這個新聞被董事長殺害死亡那因為他在他的離職信當中有提及到就是說他在職場上是有被霸凌的狀況所以依據職安法已經進行了勞檢那過去你們的執行裡面並沒有要求就是這個勞檢介入霸凌的調查但是呢你們北分署的案子跟這個\n\n29\n00:10:38,940 --> 00:10:49,464\n新北的勞檢處也都全部介入他都介入了那這表示就是說那這個將來地方跟中央有可能是不同調的\n\n30\n00:10:51,061 --> 00:11:18,299\n所以法令要怎麼定是至關重要那不要造成說將來各縣市就各吹各的調那因為如果說這個事業單位的調查認為霸凌不成立而勞檢調查認定成立的時候部長認為怎麼辦我可以再舉一個例子就是說因為我是想問說那霸凌專章到底能不能處理這一塊因為我來舉這個例子\n\n31\n00:11:19,099 --> 00:11:41,573\n嗯就是職安署如果就說好啦職安署內部的某約顧的同仁被公務人員的同仁霸凌然後勞檢員就是要去調查但是勞檢員又受雇於職安署那你們到底要怎麼處理這些狀況\n\n32\n00:11:43,362 --> 00:11:58,804\n跟委員說明剛才講到勞檢的人力他處理的比較不是直接的所謂的調查這個勞檢的部分比方說像新北市的介入他比較是去查他在職場霸凌的問題或者是不法侵害問題上面有沒有做到預防\n\n33\n00:12:00,356 --> 00:12:26,947\n那調查的部分還會有調查該有的人力所以這部分會是不太一樣的那當然接下來我們是希望如果治安法的修法有霸凌反霸凌防治專章之後這些都有相關的機制上面的規範對啊那好啦即便是調查沒有預防那你們這些勞檢員要去調查自己的這個顧用他們的人這個治安署有沒有做到預防\n\n34\n00:12:28,072 --> 00:12:53,901\n那這個也是另外一個問題啊所以我點出來這樣問題也沒有錯嘛你就是球員兼裁判自己調查自己啊如果涉及到的是這個機構裡面的最高負責人的話當然就設計上面我們會是希望有再由上級機關來做調查就又要就是所以這個專章所以我才清風法也是這樣子啊就是如果\n\n35\n00:12:55,294 --> 00:13:16,079\n這個最高負責人是行為人的話那你不太能夠在這個機構只能自己負責我想今天今天我剛提出的這些問題就是一個善意的提醒因為我們畢竟現在就是我們即將要來處理制定這個霸凌專長所以我大概提出這個做以上提醒好那請你們注意謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11521\t13683\t謝謝主席 麻煩請部長陳英文好部長好 因為您上任以來本席有發現這段時間勞動部的政策好像大部分我們的觀察是左院長在對外發布的機率比較高\n34182\t54817\t那我從來也很少就是說看到說有哪一家媒體有提到就是說部長自己對外說明這個所主政的勞動部將有這個什麼重大的這個計畫或改變例如說國定假日要增加勞退要提高那有條件的開放外籍勞工從事服務業等等\n56118\t79017\t甚至是說像台中百貨公司氣爆事故的救援跟慰問傷患我們看到的大部分都是卓院長在指示優先照顧傷者保障勞工權益 盡速調查事故原因等等我想這些很多行政院在發布集都要說明\n80198\t99966\t呃感覺就是說勞團跟工商團體呃對於這個勞動部的這個角色溝通的這個管道就是好像比較弱一點這是有一些奇怪就感覺上有些奇怪然後那反而就是說對於在我們會比較常看到就是過去對於勞動部常有一些需要\n102067\t120097\t這個補破網的工作 有很多的報導金句 例如說我不吃這一套啦 不用恭喜我啦 就按基金用途改革進行改革進行式等等 或者是說沒動機跟理由迴避這些金句其實大家都反而非常的耳熟能詳 這個報導是看到蠻多的那\n124660\t151337\t再來我想要請教就是說部長接任之初喔特別卓院長有給您三個任務請教請問你還記得嗎第一個當然是處理霸凌的問題然後再來一個是處理部內的霸凌整頓的問題然後再來包括是希望能夠提出一個完整的勞工的政策然後也希望做出一些制度的改革\n152210\t177255\t我想比較還原院長所用的文字就是說穩定勞動部內部同仁的情緒這個是他有講的那我想要請教就是說內部同仁情緒目前都穩定了嗎當然我們這段時間還是會有一些相關的申訴可是我們就是透過該處理的就去處理該面對就面對\n178611\t198833\t我想這個內部同仁的情緒應該不只不單止就是之前的這個謝怡榮的事件應該還有很多可能有些被揭露有些在調查中有些是在進行中不為人知的我想這些情緒不曉得部長有沒有關注到\n199802\t220595\t如果有相關的問題的話我想都可以提出來我想這個是很重要的第一個第一件事情部長有這樣提那再來就是要能夠健全友善合理的職場然後讓所有的勞工在安全環境中為國人效力那請問現在大家勞工們都安全了嗎\n222365\t237115\t所以這部分我想昨天講當時的意思是就是針對我們要求治安法那針對職場霸凌的機制要來把它法制化這部分我們正在當然在進行中然後目前草案已經進入到最後的收尾的階段\n237355\t264172\t我想這個部分大家都一直也都跟部長一直在努力那第三個就是在國家發展過程中對於所有產業人民的需求要提出完整的這個勞工政策那我想請教就是說目前這個部長主要你現在在推動的主要的政策是有哪些然後協助你擬定政策的這些核心人物又是哪些核心人物對\n268576\t283088\t我現在是勞動部長當然我就是要對這些事情負責倒不是什麼核心人物不核心人物的問題那協助你這個就是說擬定決策啦就是的這些人當然部內的同仁很重要就是部內的同仁的\n284910\t300584\t部內的同仁也包括我們其實相關的政策也會諮詢專家學者包括產業先包括勢勞工團體那我再請教部長就是您這三個月沒有築密的歲月裡有沒有好好珍惜自己\n305117\t333204\t因為我去查過這個所有的部會很不幸的我沒有找到有任何一個部會的主任秘書一直可以懸缺三個月以上那我是很擔心啦就是說這個我倒要問問就是說勞動部你們這個內部的你們這些資深官員難道你們都不願意擔任部長的主秘嗎你們在幹什麼\n336892\t354008\t我覺得我們這些相關重要的職缺確實我們有補了一些然後我覺得找到很不錯很適當的人選那可是也有一些持續的在找到在接觸然後在詢問中那我自己心裡也蠻急的\n355089\t382768\t所以看起來部長蠻嚴格就是您的標準也真的很高這個是好事啦但是三個月的歲月那我們其實都很關心也特別我們過去也都是同事就是說部長是屬於這個輕壯派的部長但現在就是說以在卓內閣的這個放眼望去部長應該算是最年輕的應該是吧\n385356\t414617\t我沒有去問因為有人已經不在了所以你應該是最年輕的那你跟這些可以就是說在輩分上是可以作為您的這個叔叔阿姨輩的這些高階文官那高階文官常常就是高學歷又經驗豐富那部長你如何去領導管理他們然後讓他們看見說你的這個能力然後可以信任你\n416189\t433072\t因為我們其實都是會很擔心就是說也怕你在勞動部裡面被欺負啊然後或者被蒙蔽而不自知甚至被誤導那這個就是在政策的決策上就會發生很大的問題這個是我們擔心的沒有被欺負的問題我可以很肯定的\n434588\t453340\t好沒有這個問題這是好事因為如果有人欺負你我們也會幫忙修理他幫忙導正那但是你如果有被蒙蔽的時候我們想幫忙就未必幫得上忙了這是我才我才就是本性比較\n454656\t466384\t真正擔心的事情我覺得我們會把這個諮詢的管道盡量的多元然後來聽大家的意見那事實上不管最後的什麼決策我都是要負責的\n467892\t488825\t我覺得有一些決策如果錯誤了你嘴巴講說你可以負責但是影響到很多勞工的權益的時候你嘴巴講你可以負責實際上你是沒有辦法負責的我必須要在這裡做這樣提醒雖然我今天的口氣很溫和但是呢我想有些問題是瑞麗的\n490786\t504642\t所以我做這樣子的提醒那至於哪些部分被蒙蔽我想後續我還會再跟你持續溝通因為你如果繼續被蒙蔽那院長交付你的任務你就沒有辦法完成\n506184\t528345\t那最近來進入一個實質的問題最近這個職場霸凌的案件還是層出不窮那以最近這個台大醫院某病房的護理站的例子似乎要認定成立了那實務上非常的不容易你們自己北分署的案子也是部長自己親自召集組成有公信力的這些外部委員那最後才能通過的嗎\n529286\t553212\t好那而且是在責損一位部長之後然後才被認定成立喔所以部長你也才有機會坐上這個位置那我要請教的是說被霸凌的受害者如果因此罹患精神疾病算不算職業災害算不算這應該算了好你講的\n555666\t559053\t这个要经过专业医学的专业认定对\n559548\t588994\t好我想是這樣啦你的回答也沒錯就是畢竟但是這10年來其實大概只有認定25件而已我提供這個數據給部長參考那再來未來即將制定的這個霸凌專章是在他是很奇妙的他是長在職安法裡面那這是不是表示就是說勞動檢查機構將負責未來的這個霸凌調查跟檢查講到這裡我先請教部長就是說調查跟檢查的差別在哪裡\n591221\t608656\t這當然不一樣對 差別在哪裡檢查是對於我們的很多的防治的做法有沒有做到位必須進行檢查那調查當然就是進入到個案上面那到底發生的事情是什麼進行調查這當然是很不一樣所以其實一個是就是事前的預防跟事後的調查當然\n610197\t637560\t那再來我要提醒就是說某事業單位的技術長這個新聞被董事長殺害死亡那因為他在他的離職信當中有提及到就是說他在職場上是有被霸凌的狀況所以依據職安法已經進行了勞檢那過去你們的執行裡面並沒有要求就是這個勞檢介入霸凌的調查但是呢你們北分署的案子跟這個\n638940\t649464\t新北的勞檢處也都全部介入他都介入了那這表示就是說那這個將來地方跟中央有可能是不同調的\n651061\t678299\t所以法令要怎麼定是至關重要那不要造成說將來各縣市就各吹各的調那因為如果說這個事業單位的調查認為霸凌不成立而勞檢調查認定成立的時候部長認為怎麼辦我可以再舉一個例子就是說因為我是想問說那霸凌專章到底能不能處理這一塊因為我來舉這個例子\n679099\t701573\t嗯 就是職安署如果就說好啦職安署內部的某約顧的同仁被公務人員的同仁霸凌然後勞檢員就是要去調查但是勞檢員又受雇於職安署那你們到底要怎麼處理這些狀況\n703362\t718804\t跟委員說明剛才講到勞檢的人力他處理的比較不是直接的所謂的調查這個勞檢的部分比方說像新北市的介入他比較是去查他在職場霸凌的問題或者是不法侵害問題上面有沒有做到預防\n720356\t746947\t那調查的部分還會有調查該有的人力所以這部分會是不太一樣的那當然接下來我們是希望如果治安法的修法有霸凌反霸凌防治專章之後這些都有相關的機制上面的規範對啊那好啦即便是調查沒有預防那你們這些勞檢員要去調查自己的這個顧用他們的人這個治安署有沒有做到預防\n748072\t773901\t那這個也是另外一個問題啊所以我點出來這樣問題也沒有錯嘛你就是球員兼裁判自己調查自己啊如果涉及到的是這個機構裡面的最高負責人的話當然就設計上面我們會是希望有再由上級機關來做調查就又要就是所以這個專章所以我才清風法也是這樣子啊就是如果\n775294\t796079\t這個最高負責人是行為人的話那你不太能夠在這個機構只能自己負責我想今天今天我剛提出的這些問題就是一個善意的提醒因為我們畢竟現在就是我們即將要來處理制定這個霸凌專長所以我大概提出這個做以上提醒好那請你們注意謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 麻煩請部長陳英文好部長好 因為您上任以來本席有發現這段時間勞動部的政策好像大部分我們的觀察是左院長在對外發布的機率比較高\n那我從來也很少就是說看到說有哪一家媒體有提到就是說部長自己對外說明這個所主政的勞動部將有這個什麼重大的這個計畫或改變例如說國定假日要增加勞退要提高那有條件的開放外籍勞工從事服務業等等\n甚至是說像台中百貨公司氣爆事故的救援跟慰問傷患我們看到的大部分都是卓院長在指示優先照顧傷者保障勞工權益 盡速調查事故原因等等我想這些很多行政院在發布集都要說明\n呃感覺就是說勞團跟工商團體呃對於這個勞動部的這個角色溝通的這個管道就是好像比較弱一點這是有一些奇怪就感覺上有些奇怪然後那反而就是說對於在我們會比較常看到就是過去對於勞動部常有一些需要\n這個補破網的工作 有很多的報導金句 例如說我不吃這一套啦 不用恭喜我啦 就按基金用途改革進行改革進行式等等 或者是說沒動機跟理由迴避這些金句其實大家都反而非常的耳熟能詳 這個報導是看到蠻多的那\n再來我想要請教就是說部長接任之初喔特別卓院長有給您三個任務請教請問你還記得嗎第一個當然是處理霸凌的問題然後再來一個是處理部內的霸凌整頓的問題然後再來包括是希望能夠提出一個完整的勞工的政策然後也希望做出一些制度的改革\n我想比較還原院長所用的文字就是說穩定勞動部內部同仁的情緒這個是他有講的那我想要請教就是說內部同仁情緒目前都穩定了嗎當然我們這段時間還是會有一些相關的申訴可是我們就是透過該處理的就去處理該面對就面對\n我想這個內部同仁的情緒應該不只不單止就是之前的這個謝怡榮的事件應該還有很多可能有些被揭露有些在調查中有些是在進行中不為人知的我想這些情緒不曉得部長有沒有關注到\n如果有相關的問題的話我想都可以提出來我想這個是很重要的第一個第一件事情部長有這樣提那再來就是要能夠健全友善合理的職場然後讓所有的勞工在安全環境中為國人效力那請問現在大家勞工們都安全了嗎\n所以這部分我想昨天講當時的意思是就是針對我們要求治安法那針對職場霸凌的機制要來把它法制化這部分我們正在當然在進行中然後目前草案已經進入到最後的收尾的階段\n我想這個部分大家都一直也都跟部長一直在努力那第三個就是在國家發展過程中對於所有產業人民的需求要提出完整的這個勞工政策那我想請教就是說目前這個部長主要你現在在推動的主要的政策是有哪些然後協助你擬定政策的這些核心人物又是哪些核心人物對\n我現在是勞動部長當然我就是要對這些事情負責倒不是什麼核心人物不核心人物的問題那協助你這個就是說擬定決策啦就是的這些人當然部內的同仁很重要就是部內的同仁的\n部內的同仁也包括我們其實相關的政策也會諮詢專家學者包括產業先包括勢勞工團體那我再請教部長就是您這三個月沒有築密的歲月裡有沒有好好珍惜自己\n因為我去查過這個所有的部會很不幸的我沒有找到有任何一個部會的主任秘書一直可以懸缺三個月以上那我是很擔心啦就是說這個我倒要問問就是說勞動部你們這個內部的你們這些資深官員難道你們都不願意擔任部長的主秘嗎你們在幹什麼\n我覺得我們這些相關重要的職缺確實我們有補了一些然後我覺得找到很不錯很適當的人選那可是也有一些持續的在找到在接觸然後在詢問中那我自己心裡也蠻急的\n所以看起來部長蠻嚴格就是您的標準也真的很高這個是好事啦但是三個月的歲月那我們其實都很關心也特別我們過去也都是同事就是說部長是屬於這個輕壯派的部長但現在就是說以在卓內閣的這個放眼望去部長應該算是最年輕的應該是吧\n我沒有去問因為有人已經不在了所以你應該是最年輕的那你跟這些可以就是說在輩分上是可以作為您的這個叔叔阿姨輩的這些高階文官那高階文官常常就是高學歷又經驗豐富那部長你如何去領導管理他們然後讓他們看見說你的這個能力然後可以信任你\n因為我們其實都是會很擔心就是說也怕你在勞動部裡面被欺負啊然後或者被蒙蔽而不自知甚至被誤導那這個就是在政策的決策上就會發生很大的問題這個是我們擔心的沒有被欺負的問題我可以很肯定的\n好沒有這個問題這是好事因為如果有人欺負你我們也會幫忙修理他幫忙導正那但是你如果有被蒙蔽的時候我們想幫忙就未必幫得上忙了這是我才我才就是本性比較\n真正擔心的事情我覺得我們會把這個諮詢的管道盡量的多元然後來聽大家的意見那事實上不管最後的什麼決策我都是要負責的\n我覺得有一些決策如果錯誤了你嘴巴講說你可以負責但是影響到很多勞工的權益的時候你嘴巴講你可以負責實際上你是沒有辦法負責的我必須要在這裡做這樣提醒雖然我今天的口氣很溫和但是呢我想有些問題是瑞麗的\n所以我做這樣子的提醒那至於哪些部分被蒙蔽我想後續我還會再跟你持續溝通因為你如果繼續被蒙蔽那院長交付你的任務你就沒有辦法完成\n那最近來進入一個實質的問題最近這個職場霸凌的案件還是層出不窮那以最近這個台大醫院某病房的護理站的例子似乎要認定成立了那實務上非常的不容易你們自己北分署的案子也是部長自己親自召集組成有公信力的這些外部委員那最後才能通過的嗎\n好那而且是在責損一位部長之後然後才被認定成立喔所以部長你也才有機會坐上這個位置那我要請教的是說被霸凌的受害者如果因此罹患精神疾病算不算職業災害算不算這應該算了好你講的\n这个要经过专业医学的专业认定对\n好我想是這樣啦你的回答也沒錯就是畢竟但是這10年來其實大概只有認定25件而已我提供這個數據給部長參考那再來未來即將制定的這個霸凌專章是在他是很奇妙的他是長在職安法裡面那這是不是表示就是說勞動檢查機構將負責未來的這個霸凌調查跟檢查講到這裡我先請教部長就是說調查跟檢查的差別在哪裡\n這當然不一樣對 差別在哪裡檢查是對於我們的很多的防治的做法有沒有做到位必須進行檢查那調查當然就是進入到個案上面那到底發生的事情是什麼進行調查這當然是很不一樣所以其實一個是就是事前的預防跟事後的調查當然\n那再來我要提醒就是說某事業單位的技術長這個新聞被董事長殺害死亡那因為他在他的離職信當中有提及到就是說他在職場上是有被霸凌的狀況所以依據職安法已經進行了勞檢那過去你們的執行裡面並沒有要求就是這個勞檢介入霸凌的調查但是呢你們北分署的案子跟這個\n新北的勞檢處也都全部介入他都介入了那這表示就是說那這個將來地方跟中央有可能是不同調的\n所以法令要怎麼定是至關重要那不要造成說將來各縣市就各吹各的調那因為如果說這個事業單位的調查認為霸凌不成立而勞檢調查認定成立的時候部長認為怎麼辦我可以再舉一個例子就是說因為我是想問說那霸凌專章到底能不能處理這一塊因為我來舉這個例子\n嗯 就是職安署如果就說好啦職安署內部的某約顧的同仁被公務人員的同仁霸凌然後勞檢員就是要去調查但是勞檢員又受雇於職安署那你們到底要怎麼處理這些狀況\n跟委員說明剛才講到勞檢的人力他處理的比較不是直接的所謂的調查這個勞檢的部分比方說像新北市的介入他比較是去查他在職場霸凌的問題或者是不法侵害問題上面有沒有做到預防\n那調查的部分還會有調查該有的人力所以這部分會是不太一樣的那當然接下來我們是希望如果治安法的修法有霸凌反霸凌防治專章之後這些都有相關的機制上面的規範對啊那好啦即便是調查沒有預防那你們這些勞檢員要去調查自己的這個顧用他們的人這個治安署有沒有做到預防\n那這個也是另外一個問題啊所以我點出來這樣問題也沒有錯嘛你就是球員兼裁判自己調查自己啊如果涉及到的是這個機構裡面的最高負責人的話當然就設計上面我們會是希望有再由上級機關來做調查就又要就是所以這個專章所以我才清風法也是這樣子啊就是如果\n這個最高負責人是行為人的話那你不太能夠在這個機構只能自己負責我想今天今天我剛提出的這些問題就是一個善意的提醒因為我們畢竟現在就是我們即將要來處理制定這個霸凌專長所以我大概提出這個做以上提醒好那請你們注意謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.521 --> 00:13.683\n謝謝主席麻煩請部長陳英文好部長好因為您上任以來本席有發現這段時間勞動部的政策好像大部分我們的觀察是左院長在對外發布的機率比較高\n\n00:34.182 --> 00:54.817\n那我從來也很少就是說看到說有哪一家媒體有提到就是說部長自己對外說明這個所主政的勞動部將有這個什麼重大的這個計畫或改變例如說國定假日要增加勞退要提高那有條件的開放外籍勞工從事服務業等等\n\n00:56.118 --> 01:19.017\n甚至是說像台中百貨公司氣爆事故的救援跟慰問傷患我們看到的大部分都是卓院長在指示優先照顧傷者保障勞工權益盡速調查事故原因等等我想這些很多行政院在發布集都要說明\n\n01:20.198 --> 01:39.966\n呃感覺就是說勞團跟工商團體呃對於這個勞動部的這個角色溝通的這個管道就是好像比較弱一點這是有一些奇怪就感覺上有些奇怪然後那反而就是說對於在我們會比較常看到就是過去對於勞動部常有一些需要\n\n01:42.067 --> 02:00.097\n這個補破網的工作有很多的報導金句例如說我不吃這一套啦不用恭喜我啦就按基金用途改革進行改革進行式等等或者是說沒動機跟理由迴避這些金句其實大家都反而非常的耳熟能詳這個報導是看到蠻多的那\n\n02:04.660 --> 02:31.337\n再來我想要請教就是說部長接任之初喔特別卓院長有給您三個任務請教請問你還記得嗎第一個當然是處理霸凌的問題然後再來一個是處理部內的霸凌整頓的問題然後再來包括是希望能夠提出一個完整的勞工的政策然後也希望做出一些制度的改革\n\n02:32.210 --> 02:57.255\n我想比較還原院長所用的文字就是說穩定勞動部內部同仁的情緒這個是他有講的那我想要請教就是說內部同仁情緒目前都穩定了嗎當然我們這段時間還是會有一些相關的申訴可是我們就是透過該處理的就去處理該面對就面對\n\n02:58.611 --> 03:18.833\n我想這個內部同仁的情緒應該不只不單止就是之前的這個謝怡榮的事件應該還有很多可能有些被揭露有些在調查中有些是在進行中不為人知的我想這些情緒不曉得部長有沒有關注到\n\n03:19.802 --> 03:40.595\n如果有相關的問題的話我想都可以提出來我想這個是很重要的第一個第一件事情部長有這樣提那再來就是要能夠健全友善合理的職場然後讓所有的勞工在安全環境中為國人效力那請問現在大家勞工們都安全了嗎\n\n03:42.365 --> 03:57.115\n所以這部分我想昨天講當時的意思是就是針對我們要求治安法那針對職場霸凌的機制要來把它法制化這部分我們正在當然在進行中然後目前草案已經進入到最後的收尾的階段\n\n03:57.355 --> 04:24.172\n我想這個部分大家都一直也都跟部長一直在努力那第三個就是在國家發展過程中對於所有產業人民的需求要提出完整的這個勞工政策那我想請教就是說目前這個部長主要你現在在推動的主要的政策是有哪些然後協助你擬定政策的這些核心人物又是哪些核心人物對\n\n04:28.576 --> 04:43.088\n我現在是勞動部長當然我就是要對這些事情負責倒不是什麼核心人物不核心人物的問題那協助你這個就是說擬定決策啦就是的這些人當然部內的同仁很重要就是部內的同仁的\n\n04:44.910 --> 05:00.584\n部內的同仁也包括我們其實相關的政策也會諮詢專家學者包括產業先包括勢勞工團體那我再請教部長就是您這三個月沒有築密的歲月裡有沒有好好珍惜自己\n\n05:05.117 --> 05:33.204\n因為我去查過這個所有的部會很不幸的我沒有找到有任何一個部會的主任秘書一直可以懸缺三個月以上那我是很擔心啦就是說這個我倒要問問就是說勞動部你們這個內部的你們這些資深官員難道你們都不願意擔任部長的主秘嗎你們在幹什麼\n\n05:36.892 --> 05:54.008\n我覺得我們這些相關重要的職缺確實我們有補了一些然後我覺得找到很不錯很適當的人選那可是也有一些持續的在找到在接觸然後在詢問中那我自己心裡也蠻急的\n\n05:55.089 --> 06:22.768\n所以看起來部長蠻嚴格就是您的標準也真的很高這個是好事啦但是三個月的歲月那我們其實都很關心也特別我們過去也都是同事就是說部長是屬於這個輕壯派的部長但現在就是說以在卓內閣的這個放眼望去部長應該算是最年輕的應該是吧\n\n06:25.356 --> 06:54.617\n我沒有去問因為有人已經不在了所以你應該是最年輕的那你跟這些可以就是說在輩分上是可以作為您的這個叔叔阿姨輩的這些高階文官那高階文官常常就是高學歷又經驗豐富那部長你如何去領導管理他們然後讓他們看見說你的這個能力然後可以信任你\n\n06:56.189 --> 07:13.072\n因為我們其實都是會很擔心就是說也怕你在勞動部裡面被欺負啊然後或者被蒙蔽而不自知甚至被誤導那這個就是在政策的決策上就會發生很大的問題這個是我們擔心的沒有被欺負的問題我可以很肯定的\n\n07:14.588 --> 07:33.340\n好沒有這個問題這是好事因為如果有人欺負你我們也會幫忙修理他幫忙導正那但是你如果有被蒙蔽的時候我們想幫忙就未必幫得上忙了這是我才我才就是本性比較\n\n07:34.656 --> 07:46.384\n真正擔心的事情我覺得我們會把這個諮詢的管道盡量的多元然後來聽大家的意見那事實上不管最後的什麼決策我都是要負責的\n\n07:47.892 --> 08:08.825\n我覺得有一些決策如果錯誤了你嘴巴講說你可以負責但是影響到很多勞工的權益的時候你嘴巴講你可以負責實際上你是沒有辦法負責的我必須要在這裡做這樣提醒雖然我今天的口氣很溫和但是呢我想有些問題是瑞麗的\n\n08:10.786 --> 08:24.642\n所以我做這樣子的提醒那至於哪些部分被蒙蔽我想後續我還會再跟你持續溝通因為你如果繼續被蒙蔽那院長交付你的任務你就沒有辦法完成\n\n08:26.184 --> 08:48.345\n那最近來進入一個實質的問題最近這個職場霸凌的案件還是層出不窮那以最近這個台大醫院某病房的護理站的例子似乎要認定成立了那實務上非常的不容易你們自己北分署的案子也是部長自己親自召集組成有公信力的這些外部委員那最後才能通過的嗎\n\n08:49.286 --> 09:13.212\n好那而且是在責損一位部長之後然後才被認定成立喔所以部長你也才有機會坐上這個位置那我要請教的是說被霸凌的受害者如果因此罹患精神疾病算不算職業災害算不算這應該算了好你講的\n\n09:15.666 --> 09:19.053\n这个要经过专业医学的专业认定对\n\n09:19.548 --> 09:48.994\n好我想是這樣啦你的回答也沒錯就是畢竟但是這10年來其實大概只有認定25件而已我提供這個數據給部長參考那再來未來即將制定的這個霸凌專章是在他是很奇妙的他是長在職安法裡面那這是不是表示就是說勞動檢查機構將負責未來的這個霸凌調查跟檢查講到這裡我先請教部長就是說調查跟檢查的差別在哪裡\n\n09:51.221 --> 10:08.656\n這當然不一樣對差別在哪裡檢查是對於我們的很多的防治的做法有沒有做到位必須進行檢查那調查當然就是進入到個案上面那到底發生的事情是什麼進行調查這當然是很不一樣所以其實一個是就是事前的預防跟事後的調查當然\n\n10:10.197 --> 10:37.560\n那再來我要提醒就是說某事業單位的技術長這個新聞被董事長殺害死亡那因為他在他的離職信當中有提及到就是說他在職場上是有被霸凌的狀況所以依據職安法已經進行了勞檢那過去你們的執行裡面並沒有要求就是這個勞檢介入霸凌的調查但是呢你們北分署的案子跟這個\n\n10:38.940 --> 10:49.464\n新北的勞檢處也都全部介入他都介入了那這表示就是說那這個將來地方跟中央有可能是不同調的\n\n10:51.061 --> 11:18.299\n所以法令要怎麼定是至關重要那不要造成說將來各縣市就各吹各的調那因為如果說這個事業單位的調查認為霸凌不成立而勞檢調查認定成立的時候部長認為怎麼辦我可以再舉一個例子就是說因為我是想問說那霸凌專章到底能不能處理這一塊因為我來舉這個例子\n\n11:19.099 --> 11:41.573\n嗯就是職安署如果就說好啦職安署內部的某約顧的同仁被公務人員的同仁霸凌然後勞檢員就是要去調查但是勞檢員又受雇於職安署那你們到底要怎麼處理這些狀況\n\n11:43.362 --> 11:58.804\n跟委員說明剛才講到勞檢的人力他處理的比較不是直接的所謂的調查這個勞檢的部分比方說像新北市的介入他比較是去查他在職場霸凌的問題或者是不法侵害問題上面有沒有做到預防\n\n12:00.356 --> 12:26.947\n那調查的部分還會有調查該有的人力所以這部分會是不太一樣的那當然接下來我們是希望如果治安法的修法有霸凌反霸凌防治專章之後這些都有相關的機制上面的規範對啊那好啦即便是調查沒有預防那你們這些勞檢員要去調查自己的這個顧用他們的人這個治安署有沒有做到預防\n\n12:28.072 --> 12:53.901\n那這個也是另外一個問題啊所以我點出來這樣問題也沒有錯嘛你就是球員兼裁判自己調查自己啊如果涉及到的是這個機構裡面的最高負責人的話當然就設計上面我們會是希望有再由上級機關來做調查就又要就是所以這個專章所以我才清風法也是這樣子啊就是如果\n\n12:55.294 --> 13:16.079\n這個最高負責人是行為人的話那你不太能夠在這個機構只能自己負責我想今天今天我剛提出的這些問題就是一個善意的提醒因為我們畢竟現在就是我們即將要來處理制定這個霸凌專長所以我大概提出這個做以上提醒好那請你們注意謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.521,"end":13.683,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請部長陳英文好部長好 因為您上任以來本席有發現這段時間勞動部的政策好像大部分我們的觀察是左院長在對外發布的機率比較高"},{"start":34.182,"end":54.817,"text":"那我從來也很少就是說看到說有哪一家媒體有提到就是說部長自己對外說明這個所主政的勞動部將有這個什麼重大的這個計畫或改變例如說國定假日要增加勞退要提高那有條件的開放外籍勞工從事服務業等等"},{"start":56.118,"end":79.017,"text":"甚至是說像台中百貨公司氣爆事故的救援跟慰問傷患我們看到的大部分都是卓院長在指示優先照顧傷者保障勞工權益 盡速調查事故原因等等我想這些很多行政院在發布集都要說明"},{"start":80.198,"end":99.966,"text":"呃感覺就是說勞團跟工商團體呃對於這個勞動部的這個角色溝通的這個管道就是好像比較弱一點這是有一些奇怪就感覺上有些奇怪然後那反而就是說對於在我們會比較常看到就是過去對於勞動部常有一些需要"},{"start":102.067,"end":120.097,"text":"這個補破網的工作 有很多的報導金句 例如說我不吃這一套啦 不用恭喜我啦 就按基金用途改革進行改革進行式等等 或者是說沒動機跟理由迴避這些金句其實大家都反而非常的耳熟能詳 這個報導是看到蠻多的那"},{"start":124.66,"end":151.337,"text":"再來我想要請教就是說部長接任之初喔特別卓院長有給您三個任務請教請問你還記得嗎第一個當然是處理霸凌的問題然後再來一個是處理部內的霸凌整頓的問題然後再來包括是希望能夠提出一個完整的勞工的政策然後也希望做出一些制度的改革"},{"start":152.21,"end":177.255,"text":"我想比較還原院長所用的文字就是說穩定勞動部內部同仁的情緒這個是他有講的那我想要請教就是說內部同仁情緒目前都穩定了嗎當然我們這段時間還是會有一些相關的申訴可是我們就是透過該處理的就去處理該面對就面對"},{"start":178.611,"end":198.833,"text":"我想這個內部同仁的情緒應該不只不單止就是之前的這個謝怡榮的事件應該還有很多可能有些被揭露有些在調查中有些是在進行中不為人知的我想這些情緒不曉得部長有沒有關注到"},{"start":199.802,"end":220.595,"text":"如果有相關的問題的話我想都可以提出來我想這個是很重要的第一個第一件事情部長有這樣提那再來就是要能夠健全友善合理的職場然後讓所有的勞工在安全環境中為國人效力那請問現在大家勞工們都安全了嗎"},{"start":222.365,"end":237.115,"text":"所以這部分我想昨天講當時的意思是就是針對我們要求治安法那針對職場霸凌的機制要來把它法制化這部分我們正在當然在進行中然後目前草案已經進入到最後的收尾的階段"},{"start":237.355,"end":264.172,"text":"我想這個部分大家都一直也都跟部長一直在努力那第三個就是在國家發展過程中對於所有產業人民的需求要提出完整的這個勞工政策那我想請教就是說目前這個部長主要你現在在推動的主要的政策是有哪些然後協助你擬定政策的這些核心人物又是哪些核心人物對"},{"start":268.576,"end":283.088,"text":"我現在是勞動部長當然我就是要對這些事情負責倒不是什麼核心人物不核心人物的問題那協助你這個就是說擬定決策啦就是的這些人當然部內的同仁很重要就是部內的同仁的"},{"start":284.91,"end":300.584,"text":"部內的同仁也包括我們其實相關的政策也會諮詢專家學者包括產業先包括勢勞工團體那我再請教部長就是您這三個月沒有築密的歲月裡有沒有好好珍惜自己"},{"start":305.117,"end":333.204,"text":"因為我去查過這個所有的部會很不幸的我沒有找到有任何一個部會的主任秘書一直可以懸缺三個月以上那我是很擔心啦就是說這個我倒要問問就是說勞動部你們這個內部的你們這些資深官員難道你們都不願意擔任部長的主秘嗎你們在幹什麼"},{"start":336.892,"end":354.008,"text":"我覺得我們這些相關重要的職缺確實我們有補了一些然後我覺得找到很不錯很適當的人選那可是也有一些持續的在找到在接觸然後在詢問中那我自己心裡也蠻急的"},{"start":355.089,"end":382.768,"text":"所以看起來部長蠻嚴格就是您的標準也真的很高這個是好事啦但是三個月的歲月那我們其實都很關心也特別我們過去也都是同事就是說部長是屬於這個輕壯派的部長但現在就是說以在卓內閣的這個放眼望去部長應該算是最年輕的應該是吧"},{"start":385.356,"end":414.617,"text":"我沒有去問因為有人已經不在了所以你應該是最年輕的那你跟這些可以就是說在輩分上是可以作為您的這個叔叔阿姨輩的這些高階文官那高階文官常常就是高學歷又經驗豐富那部長你如何去領導管理他們然後讓他們看見說你的這個能力然後可以信任你"},{"start":416.189,"end":433.072,"text":"因為我們其實都是會很擔心就是說也怕你在勞動部裡面被欺負啊然後或者被蒙蔽而不自知甚至被誤導那這個就是在政策的決策上就會發生很大的問題這個是我們擔心的沒有被欺負的問題我可以很肯定的"},{"start":434.588,"end":453.34,"text":"好沒有這個問題這是好事因為如果有人欺負你我們也會幫忙修理他幫忙導正那但是你如果有被蒙蔽的時候我們想幫忙就未必幫得上忙了這是我才我才就是本性比較"},{"start":454.656,"end":466.384,"text":"真正擔心的事情我覺得我們會把這個諮詢的管道盡量的多元然後來聽大家的意見那事實上不管最後的什麼決策我都是要負責的"},{"start":467.892,"end":488.825,"text":"我覺得有一些決策如果錯誤了你嘴巴講說你可以負責但是影響到很多勞工的權益的時候你嘴巴講你可以負責實際上你是沒有辦法負責的我必須要在這裡做這樣提醒雖然我今天的口氣很溫和但是呢我想有些問題是瑞麗的"},{"start":490.786,"end":504.642,"text":"所以我做這樣子的提醒那至於哪些部分被蒙蔽我想後續我還會再跟你持續溝通因為你如果繼續被蒙蔽那院長交付你的任務你就沒有辦法完成"},{"start":506.184,"end":528.345,"text":"那最近來進入一個實質的問題最近這個職場霸凌的案件還是層出不窮那以最近這個台大醫院某病房的護理站的例子似乎要認定成立了那實務上非常的不容易你們自己北分署的案子也是部長自己親自召集組成有公信力的這些外部委員那最後才能通過的嗎"},{"start":529.286,"end":553.212,"text":"好那而且是在責損一位部長之後然後才被認定成立喔所以部長你也才有機會坐上這個位置那我要請教的是說被霸凌的受害者如果因此罹患精神疾病算不算職業災害算不算這應該算了好你講的"},{"start":555.666,"end":559.053,"text":"这个要经过专业医学的专业认定对"},{"start":559.548,"end":588.994,"text":"好我想是這樣啦你的回答也沒錯就是畢竟但是這10年來其實大概只有認定25件而已我提供這個數據給部長參考那再來未來即將制定的這個霸凌專章是在他是很奇妙的他是長在職安法裡面那這是不是表示就是說勞動檢查機構將負責未來的這個霸凌調查跟檢查講到這裡我先請教部長就是說調查跟檢查的差別在哪裡"},{"start":591.221,"end":608.656,"text":"這當然不一樣對 差別在哪裡檢查是對於我們的很多的防治的做法有沒有做到位必須進行檢查那調查當然就是進入到個案上面那到底發生的事情是什麼進行調查這當然是很不一樣所以其實一個是就是事前的預防跟事後的調查當然"},{"start":610.197,"end":637.56,"text":"那再來我要提醒就是說某事業單位的技術長這個新聞被董事長殺害死亡那因為他在他的離職信當中有提及到就是說他在職場上是有被霸凌的狀況所以依據職安法已經進行了勞檢那過去你們的執行裡面並沒有要求就是這個勞檢介入霸凌的調查但是呢你們北分署的案子跟這個"},{"start":638.94,"end":649.464,"text":"新北的勞檢處也都全部介入他都介入了那這表示就是說那這個將來地方跟中央有可能是不同調的"},{"start":651.061,"end":678.299,"text":"所以法令要怎麼定是至關重要那不要造成說將來各縣市就各吹各的調那因為如果說這個事業單位的調查認為霸凌不成立而勞檢調查認定成立的時候部長認為怎麼辦我可以再舉一個例子就是說因為我是想問說那霸凌專章到底能不能處理這一塊因為我來舉這個例子"},{"start":679.099,"end":701.573,"text":"嗯 就是職安署如果就說好啦職安署內部的某約顧的同仁被公務人員的同仁霸凌然後勞檢員就是要去調查但是勞檢員又受雇於職安署那你們到底要怎麼處理這些狀況"},{"start":703.362,"end":718.804,"text":"跟委員說明剛才講到勞檢的人力他處理的比較不是直接的所謂的調查這個勞檢的部分比方說像新北市的介入他比較是去查他在職場霸凌的問題或者是不法侵害問題上面有沒有做到預防"},{"start":720.356,"end":746.947,"text":"那調查的部分還會有調查該有的人力所以這部分會是不太一樣的那當然接下來我們是希望如果治安法的修法有霸凌反霸凌防治專章之後這些都有相關的機制上面的規範對啊那好啦即便是調查沒有預防那你們這些勞檢員要去調查自己的這個顧用他們的人這個治安署有沒有做到預防"},{"start":748.072,"end":773.901,"text":"那這個也是另外一個問題啊所以我點出來這樣問題也沒有錯嘛你就是球員兼裁判自己調查自己啊如果涉及到的是這個機構裡面的最高負責人的話當然就設計上面我們會是希望有再由上級機關來做調查就又要就是所以這個專章所以我才清風法也是這樣子啊就是如果"},{"start":775.294,"end":796.079,"text":"這個最高負責人是行為人的話那你不太能夠在這個機構只能自己負責我想今天今天我剛提出的這些問題就是一個善意的提醒因為我們畢竟現在就是我們即將要來處理制定這個霸凌專長所以我大概提出這個做以上提醒好那請你們注意謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1482,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（13時35分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：陳瑩委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。您上任以來，這段時間就我們的觀察，勞動部的政策好像大部分是卓院長在對外發布的機率比較高，且我也很少看到有哪一家媒體有提到，部長自己對外說明主政的勞動部將有什麼重大的計畫或改變，例如說國定假日要增加、勞退要提高、有條件的開放外籍勞工從事服務業等等，甚至像臺中百貨公司氣爆事故的救援跟慰問傷患，我們看到的大部分都是卓院長在指示優先照顧傷者、保障勞工權益、儘速調查事故原因等等。針對這些行政院對外的發布及說明，讓勞團跟工商團體感覺勞動部的這個角色及溝通管道好像比較弱了點，感覺上有些奇怪。過去我們會比較常看到的是，勞動部常有一些需要補破網的工作，有很多的報導金句，例如說：「我不吃這一套」、「不用恭喜我啦」、「就安基金用途改革進行式」等等，或者如「沒動機跟沒理由迴避」這些金句，其實我們反而非常地耳熟能詳，這類的報導是滿多的。再來，我要請教的是，部長接任之初，卓院長有特別給您三項任務，請問您還記得嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：第一個當然是處理部內罷凌、整頓的問題，再來是希望能提出一個完整的勞工政策，也希望做出一些制度的改革。"],["陳委員瑩：我想要還原一下院長所用的文字，就是穩定勞動部內部同仁的情緒，這是院長有講到的。我想要請教，目前內部同仁的情緒都穩定了嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：這段時間以來當然還是有一些相關的申訴，可是我們該處理的就去處理，該面對的就面對。"],["陳委員瑩：我想內部同仁的情緒應該不單指之前謝宜容的事件，應該還有很多，可能有一些被揭露，有一些在調查中，有一些是在進行中而不為人知的。這些情緒不曉得部長有沒有關注到？"],["洪部長申翰：如果有相關問題的話，我想都可以提出來，我們都可以來處理。"],["陳委員瑩：我想這個是很重要的，這是第一件事情，院長有這樣提。再來就是要能夠健全友善合理的職場，然後讓所有的勞工在安全的環境中為國人效力。請問現在勞工們都安全了嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：關於這部分，我想當時卓院長的意思就是針對我們要修職安法，針對職場霸凌的機制要把它法制化。這部分我們當然是在進行中，目前草案已經進入最後的收尾階段。"],["陳委員瑩：我想這個部分大家跟部長也都一直在努力。第三個，在國家發展過程中，對於所有產業、人民的需求，要提出完整的勞工政策。那我想請教部長，目前你在推動的主要政策有哪些？協助你擬定政策的這些核心人物又是哪些人？"],["洪部長申翰：核心人物？"],["陳委員瑩：對。"],["洪部長申翰：我現在是勞動部長，當然就是要對這些事情負責，倒不是什麼核心人物不核心人物的問題。"],["陳委員瑩：那協助你擬定決策的這些人有……"],["洪部長申翰：當然部內同仁很重要。"],["陳委員瑩：就是部內同仁？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["陳委員瑩：主管？"],["洪部長申翰：部內同仁。相關政策也會諮詢專家學者，包括產業、甚至包括勞工團體，都在持續。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。","那我再請教部長，您在這三個月沒有主秘的歲月裡有沒有好好珍惜自己？我去查過所有部會，很不幸的，我沒有找到任何一個部會的主任秘書可以一直懸缺3個月以上。我是很擔心啦！對於這點，我倒要問問勞動部這些內部資深官員，難道你們都不願意擔任部長的主秘嗎？你們在幹什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，對於這些相關重要的職缺，我們確實補了一些，我覺得找到很不錯、很適當的人選，可是也有一些持續在接觸、在詢問中，我自己心裡也滿急的。"],["陳委員瑩：看起來，部長滿嚴格，也就是說，您的標準也真的很高，這是好事啦！但是3個月的歲月……好。我們其實都很關心，特別是我們過去也都是同事。部長是屬於青壯派的部長，現在以卓內閣放眼望去，部長應該算是最年輕的。應該是吧？"],["洪部長申翰：我沒有去問欸！"],["陳委員瑩：因為有人已經不在了，所以你應該是最年輕的。你跟這些在輩分上可以做為您叔叔、阿姨的高階文官共事，而高階文官常常是高學歷又經驗豐富，部長如何領導、管理他們，讓他們看見你的能力、可以信任你？因為我們其實都很擔心、也怕你在勞動部裡面被欺負啊！或者被蒙蔽而不自知，甚至被誤導，在政策的決策上就會發生很大的問題，這是我們擔心的。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我沒有被欺負的問題。我可以很肯定的，沒有這個問題。"],["陳委員瑩：好，這是好事，如果有人欺負你，我們也會幫忙修理他、幫忙導正。但是如果是你被蒙蔽的時候，我們想幫忙就未必幫得上忙了，這才是本席真正比較擔心的事情。"],["洪部長申翰：我們會讓諮詢的管道儘量多元、聽大家的意見。事實上，不管最後有什麼決策，我都是要負責的，所以我不會覺得有那麼簡單地讓誰蒙蔽了我。"],["陳委員瑩：我覺得有一些決策如果錯誤，影響到很多勞工權益的時候，就算你嘴巴講你可以負責，實際上你是沒有辦法負責的，我必須在這裡做這樣的提醒。雖然我今天的口氣很溫和，但是呢！我想有些問題是銳利的，所以我做這樣的提醒。至於哪些部分被蒙蔽，我後續還會再跟你持續溝通。你如果繼續被蒙蔽，對於院長交付給你的任務，你就沒有辦法完成。","來！進入一個實質的問題。職場霸凌的案件還是層出不窮啦！以最近臺大醫院某病房護理站的例子，似乎要認定成立了，但實務上非常不容易。你們自己北分署的案子也是部長親自召集、組成這些有公信力的外部委員，最後才能通過的嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["陳委員瑩：而且是在折損一位部長之後才被認定成立喔！所以部長你也才有機會坐上這個位子。我要請教的是，被霸凌的受害者如果因此罹患精神疾病，算不算職業災害？算不算？"],["洪部長申翰：這應該算喔！當然要經過職業醫學的專業認定。"],["陳委員瑩：我想是這樣啦！你的回答也沒錯，但是這十年來，其實大概只有認定25件而已，我提供這個數據給部長參考。","再來，未來即將制定的霸凌專章是很奇妙的，這是放在職安法裡面，這是不是表示勞動檢查機構將負責未來的霸凌調查跟檢查？講到這裡，我先請教部長，調查跟檢查的差別在哪裡？"],["洪部長申翰：當然不一樣啊！"],["陳委員瑩：對，那麼差別在哪裡？"],["洪部長申翰：檢查是指對於很多防治做法有沒有做到位必須進行檢查，那調查當然就是進入個案，針對發生的實情到底是什麼進行調查，當然是很不一樣的。"],["陳委員瑩：所以其實是事前的預防跟事後的調查？"],["洪部長申翰：當然！對。"],["陳委員瑩：再來，我要提醒的是有一個新聞，就是某事業單位的技術長被董事長殺害死亡。因為他在離職信當中提及他在職場上有被霸凌的狀況，所以依據職安法已經進行勞檢。過去在你們的指引裡並沒有要求勞檢介入霸凌的調查，但對於你們北分署的案子，新北勞檢處也都全部介入了，這就表示將來地方跟中央有可能是不同調的。所以法令要怎麼定至關重要，不要造成將來各縣市各吹各的調。如果事業單位的調查認為霸凌不成立，而勞檢調查認定成立的時候，部長認為該怎麼辦？","我可以再舉一個例子，因為我是想問霸凌專章到底能不能處理這一塊。我來舉這個例子：如果職安署內部某約僱同仁被公務人員的同仁霸凌，勞檢員要去調查，但勞檢員又受僱於職安署，你們到底要怎麼處理這些狀況？"],["洪部長申翰：剛才講到勞檢人力處理的比較不是所謂的直接調查，在勞檢的部分，比方說新北市的介入比較偏向調查在職場霸凌問題或不法侵害問題上有沒有做到預防，至於調查的部分還會有調查該有的人力，所以這部分會是不太一樣的。當然，接下來我們希望在職安法修法，有霸凌防治專章之後，對這些相關機制都有規範。"],["陳委員瑩：好啦！即便是調查、沒有預防，你們這些勞檢員若要調查自己的……僱用他們的人，職安署有沒有做到預防？這也是另外一個問題啊！所以我點出這樣的問題也沒有錯嘛！就是球員兼裁判、自己調查自己啊！而且還不許調查長官。"],["洪部長申翰：如果涉及的是該機構裡面的最高負責人，當然，就設計上，我們會希望再由上級機關調查。"],["陳委員瑩：就是又要……所以這個專章……"],["洪部長申翰：性工法也是這樣子啊！如果最高負責人是行為人的話，那就不太能夠在這個機構之內自己負責。"],["陳委員瑩：我剛剛提出這些問題，就是一個善意的提醒，畢竟我們現在即將處理、制定這個霸凌專章嘛！所以我大概提出以上提醒，請你們注意。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","本日會議詢答全部結束，現在作以下決定：","一、報告及詢答完畢。","二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於2週內以書面答復。委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","現在休息20分鐘，休息完之後再繼續開會。","休息（13時49分）","繼續開會（14時12分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":285,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算決議有關勞動部預算凍結報告案 19案；二、邀請\n勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預\n算關於勞動部主管部分","agenda_id":"1142901_00005"}}}