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00:00:39,702\n那事實上這個法治化拖延過久從2018年的時候監察院就具體的指責你應該還記得在去年的時候你們在五月的時候把軍公教調心機制法治化的書面報告送來我那時候問你啊說去年年底因為你答應嘛去年年底以前要把法案送到本院來我還問你說會不會跳票\n\n3\n00:00:40,623 --> 00:01:07,671\n你說不會跳票會送到大院來我還問你說年底以前會送來然後你說會會送來有送來嗎謝謝委員給我這個機會來說明事實上在上一年的12月6號我們已經簽成行政院而且在12月7號的時候有林政府委員召開會議審查事實上我們現在就等行政院要送到大院來審議\n\n4\n00:01:10,037 --> 00:01:39,226\n所以到目前為止沒有送來是確定嗎我們40一個一個來啦第一個法案沒有送到立法院來確定嗎對所以是行政院不願意嗎這個現在是行政院在拖嗎行政院他等著要排入整個宴會的議程今天你送來的業務報告啊軍公教調清機制的法制化也不是你今年的重要的工作目標啊所以我看了就很困惑啊現在大家是要打假球嗎\n\n5\n00:01:41,072 --> 00:02:06,615\n去年答應我年底以前要送到立法院來也沒有送來啊現在推給行政院推給行政院以後又落入了我們大家非常熟悉的無限循環什麼叫非常熟悉的無限循環不斷的演繹持續的演繹不曉得要演繹到什麼時候嘛而且你今天的業務報告你上面有寫軍公教調性機制的法制化嗎有嗎\n\n6\n00:02:08,655 --> 00:02:30,952\n那個是在上一年上一年寫的那已經在上一年寫的有完成嗎我們就等行政院排入整個院會討論完不是啦我對於行政機關大家這樣皮球踢來踢去我真的嘆為觀止啦真的嘆為觀止啦去年答應要送來我還特別問你會不會跳票\n\n7\n00:02:32,236 --> 00:02:47,156\n你還信誓旦旦跟我說不會跳票到現在就是沒看到嘛來我具體的問啦從過去的經驗法則啊如果要等行政院送來我看要等到天荒地老到2028年都不會送來\n\n8\n00:02:48,547 --> 00:03:04,202\n我進一步具體的問我們針對有關於軍公教的人員待遇調整條例草案台灣民眾黨我們已經正式提案了如果我拜託召委排案審查你們會不會反對樂觀其成還是反對希望等行政院\n\n9\n00:03:06,171 --> 00:03:32,119\n樂觀其成絕對樂觀其成嘛好第二個重要的問題啊就是公務人員的安慰辦法我們從2018年第一次在立法院見面的時候你應該記得很清楚嘛當初說要調整沒有調整所以去年3月我也肯定你很有擔當啦答應的事情沒有做到你也在司法法制委員會震動道歉我也接受了\n\n10\n00:03:32,859 --> 00:04:00,049\n我覺得政務官啊應該要像你這個樣子就有擔當嘛我答應的事情沒有做到我鄭重道歉這個是應該有一個啊基本的風範啊而不是東西跳票了以後啊還在那邊東拉西扯不願意負起啊政治責任但是您道歉歸道歉該追的事情我還是會追啦是好保訓會\n\n11\n00:04:01,704 --> 00:04:25,081\n一樣我去年追保訓會因為真正的主管單位是我們考試院的保訓會嘛那只不過保訓會在訂這個辦法的時候通常會跟人總啊去做一個協商我去年追了半天啊保訓會在今年二月的時候終於預告了安慰辦法修正草案這個安慰辦法修正草案人事總處有沒有看過\n\n12\n00:04:26,178 --> 00:04:43,052\n有有看過滿意嗎整個過程一直在跟我們討論滿意嗎就是不是滿意的問題是大家兩院之間大家對相關條文的規定有一個共識這是比較重要所以現在這個安慰辦法是人總也有共識的喔\n\n13\n00:04:43,806 --> 00:05:05,031\n就是他整個過程我們持續兩方都有高密度的在一起討論我為什麼要先問這個問題啊因為我看了安慰辦法以後啊我跟任市長報告啊我非常不滿意啊我非常不滿意啊我為什麼說非常不滿意剛剛你在報告的時候也有提到嘛\n\n14\n00:05:06,031 --> 00:05:33,829\n針對於有關於職場霸凌的機制公務人員被霸凌的機制去年的時候我們勞動部啊發生的不幸事件讓整個社會憤怒我們的政府也說啊要改革在這次的安慰辦法裡面我的確有看到啊針對職場霸凌的部分有設置相關的條文規定嘛任市長你看過嗎我也有看過啊你覺得那樣的條文規定足夠嗎\n\n15\n00:05:36,588 --> 00:06:02,563\n我覺得是要考慮到條文的一個完整性還有可執行性還是蠻重要的好我們就來看它的完整性跟可執行性來看一下第36條規定各機關不可以因為公務人員提起職場霸凌的申訴給予不利的行政處分那我下一個問題如果因為職場霸凌的申訴給不利的處分它的法律效果是什麼\n\n16\n00:06:04,329 --> 00:06:24,126\n法律效果事實上當事人他可以跟保訓會提起救濟啊你不用這個規定我也可以提起救濟啊重點是什麼重點就是你要確保一個安全的職場環境嘛不要讓他因為提起申訴而受到不利益的處分嘛那你要有法律效果是什麼\n\n17\n00:06:25,393 --> 00:06:47,587\n制止他讓他不敢做不利益的處分所以我才問你的法律效果是什麼嘛如果你的法律效果是你被不利益的處分那你自己可以去救濟那這36條的規定那不是形同劇文嗎寫好看的啊你有這條沒這條都一樣啊我本來就可以提起行政救濟啊我有說錯嗎\n\n18\n00:06:49,546 --> 00:07:12,841\n我這裡跟委員補充一下很重要的這一次有增加對機關首長的一個懲處給他一個責任很重要的就是以前大家等於就是說你按照你的標準程序保訓會的救濟可是機關首長你如果承受一些懲處的壓力他在執行這件事情他會更加的謹慎我具體給你看什麼叫做\n\n19\n00:07:14,366 --> 00:07:43,729\n不敢給他不利的處分有不利的處分要有法律效果來保証會2021年的時候他們就委託研究計畫就直接講嘛公務人員安慰辦法因為在公務人員保障法19條的授權規定裡面沒有給他有強制性的作為沒有處罰的規定沒有罰則沒有用嘛你們今天修了安慰辦法但公務人員保障法長得還是一模一樣啊長得還是一模一樣啊\n\n20\n00:07:45,066 --> 00:08:10,293\n你們結構性的問題修了這個安慰辦法一樣沒有解決那針對有關職場霸凌申訴的部分台灣民眾黨黨團針對職場霸凌防治法我們已經提了專法透過專法來加以處理任市長贊不贊成基本上我會尊重那個委員的一個提議第二個我更進一步具體的問\n\n21\n00:08:10,973 --> 00:08:38,102\n不可以做不當的差別待遇喔你如果做不當的差別待遇因為申訴接下來有行政法環的規定這才是有法律效果嘛法律人在講的法律效果指的就是這個嘛你不能做什麼事你如果做了什麼事接下來會有什麼法律效果但是你們的安慰辦法根本沒有啊你們的安慰辦法完全沒有啊跟當初保訓會在2021年花錢找學者做的委託研究計畫\n\n22\n00:08:39,864 --> 00:08:57,328\n所指責的缺點長得一模一樣啊這樣的修法方向人事長贊不贊成不過我這裡要跟委員報告在整個公告版本之後我們在跟保訓會談的時候事實上有加入那個裁罰的部分規範在第幾條你說你們有加入裁罰的部分嗎規範在第幾條\n\n23\n00:09:09,727 --> 00:09:19,527\n保障法本身對嘛就不是安慰辦法嘛所以我一開始我開宗明義就請教你那個安慰辦法你看了你滿意不滿意嘛\n\n24\n00:09:20,576 --> 00:09:49,555\n我看了以後我就很直接跟人事長講我看了就不滿意為什麼看了不滿意沒有辦法解決問題所以你們現在重新協調過了以後現在是要推動公務人員保障法的修正草案嗎現在是公務員保障法跟安慰辦法同時一起處理這樣兩邊來確保當事人的一些潛意確保還有給機關所長我跟人事長講一個基本的法律概念\n\n25\n00:09:50,456 --> 00:10:07,555\n你公務人員保障法修完了以後你的安慰辦法才可以有牙齒這存在很久的問題剛剛你的同事在下面幫你打PASS我就在問說你們是不是要推動公務人員保障法的修法你的同事一直在那邊點頭你可能沒有看到\n\n26\n00:10:08,975 --> 00:10:28,205\n我們同步在進行我跟你講這種事情所謂同步在進行公務人員保障法你如果沒有用法律的層次把它修好的話你去處理安慰辦法一樣沒有辦法解決問題現在我一個最關鍵的問題公務人員保障法的修法草案這個會席可以送來嗎\n\n27\n00:10:34,139 --> 00:10:47,469\n這個考試院我們了解的是安慰辦法大概四月底五月初會送到六合院來備查啦對啊但現在問題就出來了你公務人員保障法沒有修你的安慰辦法\n\n28\n00:10:48,209 --> 00:11:05,019\n就還是一樣按照舊的公務人員保障法授權訂的安慰辦法一樣沒有牙齒阿阿你剛剛又講同步阿現在又說4月會先被查保障法應該現在前序部也同時在找相關機關在訂阿我這樣講好了啦有的時候\n\n29\n00:11:05,999 --> 00:11:31,385\n一些不幸的事件發生的時候,社會輿論會很強烈政府機關會信誓旦旦的說要做什麼事情但是往往新聞過後,沒有人在意了沒有人在意了你們的腳步,是不是有真的做到當初承諾的,就需要追蹤而我的習慣,我相信任市長應該非常熟悉我的習慣是我一定會追到底\n\n30\n00:11:32,253 --> 00:12:00,101\n我一定會追到底這個會期喔這個會期針對有關於公務人員保障法也好針對有關於職場霸凌的專法也好針對有關於公務人員調薪機制的法治化也好我期待行政部門趕快把你們的東西送到本會來你們東西如果不送來我會拜託召委排審因為台灣民眾黨黨團我們全部修法的版本全部都提出來了\n\n31\n00:12:01,344 --> 00:12:17,916\n從公務人員調薪機制的法制化到職場霸凌的專法到公務人員保障法我們全部都提出來了我希望喔到時候不要因為行政機關提不出法案又繼續拖延可以嗎會朝這個方向努力好謝謝好謝謝黃國昌委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1547\t10116\t委員長委員長早我從去年開始就一直非常關注軍公教調性機制的法制化\n11479\t39702\t那事實上這個法治化拖延過久從2018年的時候監察院就具體的指責你應該還記得在去年的時候你們在五月的時候把軍公教調心機制法治化的書面報告送來我那時候問你啊說去年年底因為你答應嘛去年年底以前要把法案送到本院來我還問你說會不會跳票\n40623\t67671\t你說不會跳票 會送到大院來我還問你說年底以前會送來然後你說會 會送來 有送來嗎謝謝委員給我這個機會來說明事實上在上一年的12月6號我們已經簽成行政院而且在12月7號的時候有林政府委員召開會議審查事實上我們現在就等行政院要送到大院來審議\n70037\t99226\t所以到目前為止沒有送來是確定嗎我們40一個一個來啦第一個法案沒有送到立法院來確定嗎對所以是行政院不願意嗎這個現在是行政院在拖嗎行政院他等著要排入整個宴會的議程今天你送來的業務報告啊軍公教調清機制的法制化也不是你今年的重要的工作目標啊所以我看了就很困惑啊現在大家是要打假球嗎\n101072\t126615\t去年答應我年底以前要送到立法院來也沒有送來啊現在推給行政院推給行政院以後又落入了我們大家非常熟悉的無限循環什麼叫非常熟悉的無限循環不斷的演繹持續的演繹不曉得要演繹到什麼時候嘛而且你今天的業務報告你上面有寫軍公教調性機制的法制化嗎有嗎\n128655\t150952\t那個是在上一年上一年寫的那已經在上一年寫的有完成嗎我們就等行政院排入整個院會討論完不是啦我對於行政機關大家這樣皮球踢來踢去我真的嘆為觀止啦真的嘆為觀止啦去年答應要送來我還特別問你會不會跳票\n152236\t167156\t你還信誓旦旦跟我說不會跳票到現在就是沒看到嘛來我具體的問啦從過去的經驗法則啊如果要等行政院送來我看要等到天荒地老到2028年都不會送來\n168547\t184202\t我進一步具體的問我們針對有關於軍公教的人員待遇調整條例草案台灣民眾黨我們已經正式提案了如果我拜託召委排案審查你們會不會反對樂觀其成還是反對希望等行政院\n186171\t212119\t樂觀其成絕對樂觀其成嘛好第二個重要的問題啊就是公務人員的安慰辦法我們從2018年第一次在立法院見面的時候你應該記得很清楚嘛當初說要調整沒有調整所以去年3月我也肯定你很有擔當啦答應的事情沒有做到你也在司法法制委員會震動道歉我也接受了\n212859\t240049\t我覺得政務官啊應該要像你這個樣子就有擔當嘛我答應的事情沒有做到我鄭重道歉這個是應該有一個啊基本的風範啊而不是東西跳票了以後啊還在那邊東拉西扯不願意負起啊政治責任但是您道歉歸道歉該追的事情我還是會追啦是好保訓會\n241704\t265081\t一樣我去年追保訓會因為真正的主管單位是我們考試院的保訓會嘛那只不過保訓會在訂這個辦法的時候通常會跟人總啊去做一個協商我去年追了半天啊保訓會在今年二月的時候終於預告了安慰辦法修正草案這個安慰辦法修正草案人事總處有沒有看過\n266178\t283052\t有 有看過滿意嗎整個過程一直在跟我們討論滿意嗎就是不是滿意的問題是大家兩院之間大家對相關條文的規定有一個共識這是比較重要所以現在這個安慰辦法是人總也有共識的喔\n283806\t305031\t就是他整個過程我們持續兩方都有高密度的在一起討論我為什麼要先問這個問題啊因為我看了安慰辦法以後啊我跟任市長報告啊我非常不滿意啊我非常不滿意啊我為什麼說非常不滿意剛剛你在報告的時候也有提到嘛\n306031\t333829\t針對於有關於職場霸凌的機制公務人員被霸凌的機制去年的時候我們勞動部啊發生的不幸事件讓整個社會憤怒我們的政府也說啊要改革在這次的安慰辦法裡面我的確有看到啊針對職場霸凌的部分有設置相關的條文規定嘛任市長你看過嗎我也有看過啊你覺得那樣的條文規定足夠嗎\n336588\t362563\t我覺得是要考慮到條文的一個完整性還有可執行性還是蠻重要的好 我們就來看它的完整性跟可執行性來看一下第36條規定各機關不可以因為公務人員提起職場霸凌的申訴給予不利的行政處分那我下一個問題如果因為職場霸凌的申訴給不利的處分 它的法律效果是什麼\n364329\t384126\t法律效果事實上當事人他可以跟保訓會提起救濟啊你不用這個規定我也可以提起救濟啊重點是什麼重點就是你要確保一個安全的職場環境嘛不要讓他因為提起申訴而受到不利益的處分嘛那你要有法律效果是什麼\n385393\t407587\t制止他讓他不敢做不利益的處分所以我才問你的法律效果是什麼嘛如果你的法律效果是你被不利益的處分那你自己可以去救濟那這36條的規定那不是形同劇文嗎寫好看的啊你有這條沒這條都一樣啊我本來就可以提起行政救濟啊我有說錯嗎\n409546\t432841\t我這裡跟委員補充一下很重要的這一次有增加對機關首長的一個懲處給他一個責任很重要的就是以前大家等於就是說你按照你的標準程序保訓會的救濟可是機關首長你如果承受一些懲處的壓力他在執行這件事情他會更加的謹慎我具體給你看什麼叫做\n434366\t463729\t不敢給他不利的處分有不利的處分要有法律效果來保証會2021年的時候他們就委託研究計畫就直接講嘛公務人員安慰辦法因為在公務人員保障法19條的授權規定裡面沒有給他有強制性的作為沒有處罰的規定沒有罰則沒有用嘛你們今天修了安慰辦法但公務人員保障法長得還是一模一樣啊長得還是一模一樣啊\n465066\t490293\t你們結構性的問題修了這個安慰辦法一樣沒有解決那針對有關職場霸凌申訴的部分台灣民眾黨黨團針對職場霸凌防治法我們已經提了專法透過專法來加以處理任市長贊不贊成基本上我會尊重那個委員的一個提議第二個我更進一步具體的問\n490973\t518102\t不可以做不當的差別待遇喔你如果做不當的差別待遇因為申訴接下來有行政法環的規定這才是有法律效果嘛法律人在講的法律效果指的就是這個嘛你不能做什麼事你如果做了什麼事接下來會有什麼法律效果但是你們的安慰辦法根本沒有啊你們的安慰辦法完全沒有啊跟當初保訓會在2021年花錢找學者做的委託研究計畫\n519864\t537328\t所指責的缺點長得一模一樣啊這樣的修法方向人事長贊不贊成不過我這裡要跟委員報告在整個公告版本之後我們在跟保訓會談的時候事實上有加入那個裁罰的部分規範在第幾條你說你們有加入裁罰的部分嗎規範在第幾條\n549727\t559527\t保障法本身對嘛 就不是安慰辦法嘛所以我一開始我開宗明義就請教你那個安慰辦法你看了你滿意不滿意嘛\n560576\t589555\t我看了以後我就很直接跟人事長講我看了就不滿意為什麼看了不滿意沒有辦法解決問題所以你們現在重新協調過了以後現在是要推動公務人員保障法的修正草案嗎現在是公務員保障法跟安慰辦法同時一起處理這樣兩邊來確保當事人的一些潛意確保還有給機關所長我跟人事長講一個基本的法律概念\n590456\t607555\t你公務人員保障法修完了以後你的安慰辦法才可以有牙齒這存在很久的問題剛剛你的同事在下面幫你打PASS我就在問說你們是不是要推動公務人員保障法的修法你的同事一直在那邊點頭你可能沒有看到\n608975\t628205\t我們同步在進行我跟你講這種事情所謂同步在進行公務人員保障法你如果沒有用法律的層次把它修好的話你去處理安慰辦法一樣沒有辦法解決問題現在我一個最關鍵的問題公務人員保障法的修法草案這個會席可以送來嗎\n634139\t647469\t這個考試院我們了解的是安慰辦法大概四月底五月初會送到六合院來備查啦對啊 但現在問題就出來了你公務人員保障法沒有修你的安慰辦法\n648209\t665019\t就還是一樣按照舊的公務人員保障法授權訂的安慰辦法一樣沒有牙齒阿阿你剛剛又講同步阿現在又說4月會先被查保障法應該現在前序部也同時在找相關機關在訂阿我這樣講好了啦有的時候\n665999\t691385\t一些不幸的事件發生的時候,社會輿論會很強烈政府機關會信誓旦旦的說要做什麼事情但是往往新聞過後,沒有人在意了沒有人在意了你們的腳步,是不是有真的做到當初承諾的,就需要追蹤而我的習慣,我相信任市長應該非常熟悉我的習慣是我一定會追到底\n692253\t720101\t我一定會追到底這個會期喔這個會期針對有關於公務人員保障法也好針對有關於職場霸凌的專法也好針對有關於公務人員調薪機制的法治化也好我期待行政部門趕快把你們的東西送到本會來你們東西如果不送來我會拜託召委排審因為台灣民眾黨黨團我們全部修法的版本全部都提出來了\n721344\t737916\t從公務人員調薪機制的法制化到職場霸凌的專法到公務人員保障法我們全部都提出來了我希望喔到時候不要因為行政機關提不出法案又繼續拖延可以嗎會朝這個方向努力好謝謝好謝謝黃國昌委員\n","txt":"委員長委員長早我從去年開始就一直非常關注軍公教調性機制的法制化\n那事實上這個法治化拖延過久從2018年的時候監察院就具體的指責你應該還記得在去年的時候你們在五月的時候把軍公教調心機制法治化的書面報告送來我那時候問你啊說去年年底因為你答應嘛去年年底以前要把法案送到本院來我還問你說會不會跳票\n你說不會跳票 會送到大院來我還問你說年底以前會送來然後你說會 會送來 有送來嗎謝謝委員給我這個機會來說明事實上在上一年的12月6號我們已經簽成行政院而且在12月7號的時候有林政府委員召開會議審查事實上我們現在就等行政院要送到大院來審議\n所以到目前為止沒有送來是確定嗎我們40一個一個來啦第一個法案沒有送到立法院來確定嗎對所以是行政院不願意嗎這個現在是行政院在拖嗎行政院他等著要排入整個宴會的議程今天你送來的業務報告啊軍公教調清機制的法制化也不是你今年的重要的工作目標啊所以我看了就很困惑啊現在大家是要打假球嗎\n去年答應我年底以前要送到立法院來也沒有送來啊現在推給行政院推給行政院以後又落入了我們大家非常熟悉的無限循環什麼叫非常熟悉的無限循環不斷的演繹持續的演繹不曉得要演繹到什麼時候嘛而且你今天的業務報告你上面有寫軍公教調性機制的法制化嗎有嗎\n那個是在上一年上一年寫的那已經在上一年寫的有完成嗎我們就等行政院排入整個院會討論完不是啦我對於行政機關大家這樣皮球踢來踢去我真的嘆為觀止啦真的嘆為觀止啦去年答應要送來我還特別問你會不會跳票\n你還信誓旦旦跟我說不會跳票到現在就是沒看到嘛來我具體的問啦從過去的經驗法則啊如果要等行政院送來我看要等到天荒地老到2028年都不會送來\n我進一步具體的問我們針對有關於軍公教的人員待遇調整條例草案台灣民眾黨我們已經正式提案了如果我拜託召委排案審查你們會不會反對樂觀其成還是反對希望等行政院\n樂觀其成絕對樂觀其成嘛好第二個重要的問題啊就是公務人員的安慰辦法我們從2018年第一次在立法院見面的時候你應該記得很清楚嘛當初說要調整沒有調整所以去年3月我也肯定你很有擔當啦答應的事情沒有做到你也在司法法制委員會震動道歉我也接受了\n我覺得政務官啊應該要像你這個樣子就有擔當嘛我答應的事情沒有做到我鄭重道歉這個是應該有一個啊基本的風範啊而不是東西跳票了以後啊還在那邊東拉西扯不願意負起啊政治責任但是您道歉歸道歉該追的事情我還是會追啦是好保訓會\n一樣我去年追保訓會因為真正的主管單位是我們考試院的保訓會嘛那只不過保訓會在訂這個辦法的時候通常會跟人總啊去做一個協商我去年追了半天啊保訓會在今年二月的時候終於預告了安慰辦法修正草案這個安慰辦法修正草案人事總處有沒有看過\n有 有看過滿意嗎整個過程一直在跟我們討論滿意嗎就是不是滿意的問題是大家兩院之間大家對相關條文的規定有一個共識這是比較重要所以現在這個安慰辦法是人總也有共識的喔\n就是他整個過程我們持續兩方都有高密度的在一起討論我為什麼要先問這個問題啊因為我看了安慰辦法以後啊我跟任市長報告啊我非常不滿意啊我非常不滿意啊我為什麼說非常不滿意剛剛你在報告的時候也有提到嘛\n針對於有關於職場霸凌的機制公務人員被霸凌的機制去年的時候我們勞動部啊發生的不幸事件讓整個社會憤怒我們的政府也說啊要改革在這次的安慰辦法裡面我的確有看到啊針對職場霸凌的部分有設置相關的條文規定嘛任市長你看過嗎我也有看過啊你覺得那樣的條文規定足夠嗎\n我覺得是要考慮到條文的一個完整性還有可執行性還是蠻重要的好 我們就來看它的完整性跟可執行性來看一下第36條規定各機關不可以因為公務人員提起職場霸凌的申訴給予不利的行政處分那我下一個問題如果因為職場霸凌的申訴給不利的處分 它的法律效果是什麼\n法律效果事實上當事人他可以跟保訓會提起救濟啊你不用這個規定我也可以提起救濟啊重點是什麼重點就是你要確保一個安全的職場環境嘛不要讓他因為提起申訴而受到不利益的處分嘛那你要有法律效果是什麼\n制止他讓他不敢做不利益的處分所以我才問你的法律效果是什麼嘛如果你的法律效果是你被不利益的處分那你自己可以去救濟那這36條的規定那不是形同劇文嗎寫好看的啊你有這條沒這條都一樣啊我本來就可以提起行政救濟啊我有說錯嗎\n我這裡跟委員補充一下很重要的這一次有增加對機關首長的一個懲處給他一個責任很重要的就是以前大家等於就是說你按照你的標準程序保訓會的救濟可是機關首長你如果承受一些懲處的壓力他在執行這件事情他會更加的謹慎我具體給你看什麼叫做\n不敢給他不利的處分有不利的處分要有法律效果來保証會2021年的時候他們就委託研究計畫就直接講嘛公務人員安慰辦法因為在公務人員保障法19條的授權規定裡面沒有給他有強制性的作為沒有處罰的規定沒有罰則沒有用嘛你們今天修了安慰辦法但公務人員保障法長得還是一模一樣啊長得還是一模一樣啊\n你們結構性的問題修了這個安慰辦法一樣沒有解決那針對有關職場霸凌申訴的部分台灣民眾黨黨團針對職場霸凌防治法我們已經提了專法透過專法來加以處理任市長贊不贊成基本上我會尊重那個委員的一個提議第二個我更進一步具體的問\n不可以做不當的差別待遇喔你如果做不當的差別待遇因為申訴接下來有行政法環的規定這才是有法律效果嘛法律人在講的法律效果指的就是這個嘛你不能做什麼事你如果做了什麼事接下來會有什麼法律效果但是你們的安慰辦法根本沒有啊你們的安慰辦法完全沒有啊跟當初保訓會在2021年花錢找學者做的委託研究計畫\n所指責的缺點長得一模一樣啊這樣的修法方向人事長贊不贊成不過我這裡要跟委員報告在整個公告版本之後我們在跟保訓會談的時候事實上有加入那個裁罰的部分規範在第幾條你說你們有加入裁罰的部分嗎規範在第幾條\n保障法本身對嘛 就不是安慰辦法嘛所以我一開始我開宗明義就請教你那個安慰辦法你看了你滿意不滿意嘛\n我看了以後我就很直接跟人事長講我看了就不滿意為什麼看了不滿意沒有辦法解決問題所以你們現在重新協調過了以後現在是要推動公務人員保障法的修正草案嗎現在是公務員保障法跟安慰辦法同時一起處理這樣兩邊來確保當事人的一些潛意確保還有給機關所長我跟人事長講一個基本的法律概念\n你公務人員保障法修完了以後你的安慰辦法才可以有牙齒這存在很久的問題剛剛你的同事在下面幫你打PASS我就在問說你們是不是要推動公務人員保障法的修法你的同事一直在那邊點頭你可能沒有看到\n我們同步在進行我跟你講這種事情所謂同步在進行公務人員保障法你如果沒有用法律的層次把它修好的話你去處理安慰辦法一樣沒有辦法解決問題現在我一個最關鍵的問題公務人員保障法的修法草案這個會席可以送來嗎\n這個考試院我們了解的是安慰辦法大概四月底五月初會送到六合院來備查啦對啊 但現在問題就出來了你公務人員保障法沒有修你的安慰辦法\n就還是一樣按照舊的公務人員保障法授權訂的安慰辦法一樣沒有牙齒阿阿你剛剛又講同步阿現在又說4月會先被查保障法應該現在前序部也同時在找相關機關在訂阿我這樣講好了啦有的時候\n一些不幸的事件發生的時候,社會輿論會很強烈政府機關會信誓旦旦的說要做什麼事情但是往往新聞過後,沒有人在意了沒有人在意了你們的腳步,是不是有真的做到當初承諾的,就需要追蹤而我的習慣,我相信任市長應該非常熟悉我的習慣是我一定會追到底\n我一定會追到底這個會期喔這個會期針對有關於公務人員保障法也好針對有關於職場霸凌的專法也好針對有關於公務人員調薪機制的法治化也好我期待行政部門趕快把你們的東西送到本會來你們東西如果不送來我會拜託召委排審因為台灣民眾黨黨團我們全部修法的版本全部都提出來了\n從公務人員調薪機制的法制化到職場霸凌的專法到公務人員保障法我們全部都提出來了我希望喔到時候不要因為行政機關提不出法案又繼續拖延可以嗎會朝這個方向努力好謝謝好謝謝黃國昌委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.547 --> 00:10.116\n委員長委員長早我從去年開始就一直非常關注軍公教調性機制的法制化\n\n00:11.479 --> 00:39.702\n那事實上這個法治化拖延過久從2018年的時候監察院就具體的指責你應該還記得在去年的時候你們在五月的時候把軍公教調心機制法治化的書面報告送來我那時候問你啊說去年年底因為你答應嘛去年年底以前要把法案送到本院來我還問你說會不會跳票\n\n00:40.623 --> 01:07.671\n你說不會跳票會送到大院來我還問你說年底以前會送來然後你說會會送來有送來嗎謝謝委員給我這個機會來說明事實上在上一年的12月6號我們已經簽成行政院而且在12月7號的時候有林政府委員召開會議審查事實上我們現在就等行政院要送到大院來審議\n\n01:10.037 --> 01:39.226\n所以到目前為止沒有送來是確定嗎我們40一個一個來啦第一個法案沒有送到立法院來確定嗎對所以是行政院不願意嗎這個現在是行政院在拖嗎行政院他等著要排入整個宴會的議程今天你送來的業務報告啊軍公教調清機制的法制化也不是你今年的重要的工作目標啊所以我看了就很困惑啊現在大家是要打假球嗎\n\n01:41.072 --> 02:06.615\n去年答應我年底以前要送到立法院來也沒有送來啊現在推給行政院推給行政院以後又落入了我們大家非常熟悉的無限循環什麼叫非常熟悉的無限循環不斷的演繹持續的演繹不曉得要演繹到什麼時候嘛而且你今天的業務報告你上面有寫軍公教調性機制的法制化嗎有嗎\n\n02:08.655 --> 02:30.952\n那個是在上一年上一年寫的那已經在上一年寫的有完成嗎我們就等行政院排入整個院會討論完不是啦我對於行政機關大家這樣皮球踢來踢去我真的嘆為觀止啦真的嘆為觀止啦去年答應要送來我還特別問你會不會跳票\n\n02:32.236 --> 02:47.156\n你還信誓旦旦跟我說不會跳票到現在就是沒看到嘛來我具體的問啦從過去的經驗法則啊如果要等行政院送來我看要等到天荒地老到2028年都不會送來\n\n02:48.547 --> 03:04.202\n我進一步具體的問我們針對有關於軍公教的人員待遇調整條例草案台灣民眾黨我們已經正式提案了如果我拜託召委排案審查你們會不會反對樂觀其成還是反對希望等行政院\n\n03:06.171 --> 03:32.119\n樂觀其成絕對樂觀其成嘛好第二個重要的問題啊就是公務人員的安慰辦法我們從2018年第一次在立法院見面的時候你應該記得很清楚嘛當初說要調整沒有調整所以去年3月我也肯定你很有擔當啦答應的事情沒有做到你也在司法法制委員會震動道歉我也接受了\n\n03:32.859 --> 04:00.049\n我覺得政務官啊應該要像你這個樣子就有擔當嘛我答應的事情沒有做到我鄭重道歉這個是應該有一個啊基本的風範啊而不是東西跳票了以後啊還在那邊東拉西扯不願意負起啊政治責任但是您道歉歸道歉該追的事情我還是會追啦是好保訓會\n\n04:01.704 --> 04:25.081\n一樣我去年追保訓會因為真正的主管單位是我們考試院的保訓會嘛那只不過保訓會在訂這個辦法的時候通常會跟人總啊去做一個協商我去年追了半天啊保訓會在今年二月的時候終於預告了安慰辦法修正草案這個安慰辦法修正草案人事總處有沒有看過\n\n04:26.178 --> 04:43.052\n有有看過滿意嗎整個過程一直在跟我們討論滿意嗎就是不是滿意的問題是大家兩院之間大家對相關條文的規定有一個共識這是比較重要所以現在這個安慰辦法是人總也有共識的喔\n\n04:43.806 --> 05:05.031\n就是他整個過程我們持續兩方都有高密度的在一起討論我為什麼要先問這個問題啊因為我看了安慰辦法以後啊我跟任市長報告啊我非常不滿意啊我非常不滿意啊我為什麼說非常不滿意剛剛你在報告的時候也有提到嘛\n\n05:06.031 --> 05:33.829\n針對於有關於職場霸凌的機制公務人員被霸凌的機制去年的時候我們勞動部啊發生的不幸事件讓整個社會憤怒我們的政府也說啊要改革在這次的安慰辦法裡面我的確有看到啊針對職場霸凌的部分有設置相關的條文規定嘛任市長你看過嗎我也有看過啊你覺得那樣的條文規定足夠嗎\n\n05:36.588 --> 06:02.563\n我覺得是要考慮到條文的一個完整性還有可執行性還是蠻重要的好我們就來看它的完整性跟可執行性來看一下第36條規定各機關不可以因為公務人員提起職場霸凌的申訴給予不利的行政處分那我下一個問題如果因為職場霸凌的申訴給不利的處分它的法律效果是什麼\n\n06:04.329 --> 06:24.126\n法律效果事實上當事人他可以跟保訓會提起救濟啊你不用這個規定我也可以提起救濟啊重點是什麼重點就是你要確保一個安全的職場環境嘛不要讓他因為提起申訴而受到不利益的處分嘛那你要有法律效果是什麼\n\n06:25.393 --> 06:47.587\n制止他讓他不敢做不利益的處分所以我才問你的法律效果是什麼嘛如果你的法律效果是你被不利益的處分那你自己可以去救濟那這36條的規定那不是形同劇文嗎寫好看的啊你有這條沒這條都一樣啊我本來就可以提起行政救濟啊我有說錯嗎\n\n06:49.546 --> 07:12.841\n我這裡跟委員補充一下很重要的這一次有增加對機關首長的一個懲處給他一個責任很重要的就是以前大家等於就是說你按照你的標準程序保訓會的救濟可是機關首長你如果承受一些懲處的壓力他在執行這件事情他會更加的謹慎我具體給你看什麼叫做\n\n07:14.366 --> 07:43.729\n不敢給他不利的處分有不利的處分要有法律效果來保証會2021年的時候他們就委託研究計畫就直接講嘛公務人員安慰辦法因為在公務人員保障法19條的授權規定裡面沒有給他有強制性的作為沒有處罰的規定沒有罰則沒有用嘛你們今天修了安慰辦法但公務人員保障法長得還是一模一樣啊長得還是一模一樣啊\n\n07:45.066 --> 08:10.293\n你們結構性的問題修了這個安慰辦法一樣沒有解決那針對有關職場霸凌申訴的部分台灣民眾黨黨團針對職場霸凌防治法我們已經提了專法透過專法來加以處理任市長贊不贊成基本上我會尊重那個委員的一個提議第二個我更進一步具體的問\n\n08:10.973 --> 08:38.102\n不可以做不當的差別待遇喔你如果做不當的差別待遇因為申訴接下來有行政法環的規定這才是有法律效果嘛法律人在講的法律效果指的就是這個嘛你不能做什麼事你如果做了什麼事接下來會有什麼法律效果但是你們的安慰辦法根本沒有啊你們的安慰辦法完全沒有啊跟當初保訓會在2021年花錢找學者做的委託研究計畫\n\n08:39.864 --> 08:57.328\n所指責的缺點長得一模一樣啊這樣的修法方向人事長贊不贊成不過我這裡要跟委員報告在整個公告版本之後我們在跟保訓會談的時候事實上有加入那個裁罰的部分規範在第幾條你說你們有加入裁罰的部分嗎規範在第幾條\n\n09:09.727 --> 09:19.527\n保障法本身對嘛就不是安慰辦法嘛所以我一開始我開宗明義就請教你那個安慰辦法你看了你滿意不滿意嘛\n\n09:20.576 --> 09:49.555\n我看了以後我就很直接跟人事長講我看了就不滿意為什麼看了不滿意沒有辦法解決問題所以你們現在重新協調過了以後現在是要推動公務人員保障法的修正草案嗎現在是公務員保障法跟安慰辦法同時一起處理這樣兩邊來確保當事人的一些潛意確保還有給機關所長我跟人事長講一個基本的法律概念\n\n09:50.456 --> 10:07.555\n你公務人員保障法修完了以後你的安慰辦法才可以有牙齒這存在很久的問題剛剛你的同事在下面幫你打PASS我就在問說你們是不是要推動公務人員保障法的修法你的同事一直在那邊點頭你可能沒有看到\n\n10:08.975 --> 10:28.205\n我們同步在進行我跟你講這種事情所謂同步在進行公務人員保障法你如果沒有用法律的層次把它修好的話你去處理安慰辦法一樣沒有辦法解決問題現在我一個最關鍵的問題公務人員保障法的修法草案這個會席可以送來嗎\n\n10:34.139 --> 10:47.469\n這個考試院我們了解的是安慰辦法大概四月底五月初會送到六合院來備查啦對啊但現在問題就出來了你公務人員保障法沒有修你的安慰辦法\n\n10:48.209 --> 11:05.019\n就還是一樣按照舊的公務人員保障法授權訂的安慰辦法一樣沒有牙齒阿阿你剛剛又講同步阿現在又說4月會先被查保障法應該現在前序部也同時在找相關機關在訂阿我這樣講好了啦有的時候\n\n11:05.999 --> 11:31.385\n一些不幸的事件發生的時候,社會輿論會很強烈政府機關會信誓旦旦的說要做什麼事情但是往往新聞過後,沒有人在意了沒有人在意了你們的腳步,是不是有真的做到當初承諾的,就需要追蹤而我的習慣,我相信任市長應該非常熟悉我的習慣是我一定會追到底\n\n11:32.253 --> 12:00.101\n我一定會追到底這個會期喔這個會期針對有關於公務人員保障法也好針對有關於職場霸凌的專法也好針對有關於公務人員調薪機制的法治化也好我期待行政部門趕快把你們的東西送到本會來你們東西如果不送來我會拜託召委排審因為台灣民眾黨黨團我們全部修法的版本全部都提出來了\n\n12:01.344 --> 12:17.916\n從公務人員調薪機制的法制化到職場霸凌的專法到公務人員保障法我們全部都提出來了我希望喔到時候不要因為行政機關提不出法案又繼續拖延可以嗎會朝這個方向努力好謝謝好謝謝黃國昌委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.547,"end":10.116,"text":"委員長委員長早我從去年開始就一直非常關注軍公教調性機制的法制化"},{"start":11.479,"end":39.702,"text":"那事實上這個法治化拖延過久從2018年的時候監察院就具體的指責你應該還記得在去年的時候你們在五月的時候把軍公教調心機制法治化的書面報告送來我那時候問你啊說去年年底因為你答應嘛去年年底以前要把法案送到本院來我還問你說會不會跳票"},{"start":40.623,"end":67.671,"text":"你說不會跳票 會送到大院來我還問你說年底以前會送來然後你說會 會送來 有送來嗎謝謝委員給我這個機會來說明事實上在上一年的12月6號我們已經簽成行政院而且在12月7號的時候有林政府委員召開會議審查事實上我們現在就等行政院要送到大院來審議"},{"start":70.037,"end":99.226,"text":"所以到目前為止沒有送來是確定嗎我們40一個一個來啦第一個法案沒有送到立法院來確定嗎對所以是行政院不願意嗎這個現在是行政院在拖嗎行政院他等著要排入整個宴會的議程今天你送來的業務報告啊軍公教調清機制的法制化也不是你今年的重要的工作目標啊所以我看了就很困惑啊現在大家是要打假球嗎"},{"start":101.072,"end":126.615,"text":"去年答應我年底以前要送到立法院來也沒有送來啊現在推給行政院推給行政院以後又落入了我們大家非常熟悉的無限循環什麼叫非常熟悉的無限循環不斷的演繹持續的演繹不曉得要演繹到什麼時候嘛而且你今天的業務報告你上面有寫軍公教調性機制的法制化嗎有嗎"},{"start":128.655,"end":150.952,"text":"那個是在上一年上一年寫的那已經在上一年寫的有完成嗎我們就等行政院排入整個院會討論完不是啦我對於行政機關大家這樣皮球踢來踢去我真的嘆為觀止啦真的嘆為觀止啦去年答應要送來我還特別問你會不會跳票"},{"start":152.236,"end":167.156,"text":"你還信誓旦旦跟我說不會跳票到現在就是沒看到嘛來我具體的問啦從過去的經驗法則啊如果要等行政院送來我看要等到天荒地老到2028年都不會送來"},{"start":168.547,"end":184.202,"text":"我進一步具體的問我們針對有關於軍公教的人員待遇調整條例草案台灣民眾黨我們已經正式提案了如果我拜託召委排案審查你們會不會反對樂觀其成還是反對希望等行政院"},{"start":186.171,"end":212.119,"text":"樂觀其成絕對樂觀其成嘛好第二個重要的問題啊就是公務人員的安慰辦法我們從2018年第一次在立法院見面的時候你應該記得很清楚嘛當初說要調整沒有調整所以去年3月我也肯定你很有擔當啦答應的事情沒有做到你也在司法法制委員會震動道歉我也接受了"},{"start":212.859,"end":240.049,"text":"我覺得政務官啊應該要像你這個樣子就有擔當嘛我答應的事情沒有做到我鄭重道歉這個是應該有一個啊基本的風範啊而不是東西跳票了以後啊還在那邊東拉西扯不願意負起啊政治責任但是您道歉歸道歉該追的事情我還是會追啦是好保訓會"},{"start":241.704,"end":265.081,"text":"一樣我去年追保訓會因為真正的主管單位是我們考試院的保訓會嘛那只不過保訓會在訂這個辦法的時候通常會跟人總啊去做一個協商我去年追了半天啊保訓會在今年二月的時候終於預告了安慰辦法修正草案這個安慰辦法修正草案人事總處有沒有看過"},{"start":266.178,"end":283.052,"text":"有 有看過滿意嗎整個過程一直在跟我們討論滿意嗎就是不是滿意的問題是大家兩院之間大家對相關條文的規定有一個共識這是比較重要所以現在這個安慰辦法是人總也有共識的喔"},{"start":283.806,"end":305.031,"text":"就是他整個過程我們持續兩方都有高密度的在一起討論我為什麼要先問這個問題啊因為我看了安慰辦法以後啊我跟任市長報告啊我非常不滿意啊我非常不滿意啊我為什麼說非常不滿意剛剛你在報告的時候也有提到嘛"},{"start":306.031,"end":333.829,"text":"針對於有關於職場霸凌的機制公務人員被霸凌的機制去年的時候我們勞動部啊發生的不幸事件讓整個社會憤怒我們的政府也說啊要改革在這次的安慰辦法裡面我的確有看到啊針對職場霸凌的部分有設置相關的條文規定嘛任市長你看過嗎我也有看過啊你覺得那樣的條文規定足夠嗎"},{"start":336.588,"end":362.563,"text":"我覺得是要考慮到條文的一個完整性還有可執行性還是蠻重要的好 我們就來看它的完整性跟可執行性來看一下第36條規定各機關不可以因為公務人員提起職場霸凌的申訴給予不利的行政處分那我下一個問題如果因為職場霸凌的申訴給不利的處分 它的法律效果是什麼"},{"start":364.329,"end":384.126,"text":"法律效果事實上當事人他可以跟保訓會提起救濟啊你不用這個規定我也可以提起救濟啊重點是什麼重點就是你要確保一個安全的職場環境嘛不要讓他因為提起申訴而受到不利益的處分嘛那你要有法律效果是什麼"},{"start":385.393,"end":407.587,"text":"制止他讓他不敢做不利益的處分所以我才問你的法律效果是什麼嘛如果你的法律效果是你被不利益的處分那你自己可以去救濟那這36條的規定那不是形同劇文嗎寫好看的啊你有這條沒這條都一樣啊我本來就可以提起行政救濟啊我有說錯嗎"},{"start":409.546,"end":432.841,"text":"我這裡跟委員補充一下很重要的這一次有增加對機關首長的一個懲處給他一個責任很重要的就是以前大家等於就是說你按照你的標準程序保訓會的救濟可是機關首長你如果承受一些懲處的壓力他在執行這件事情他會更加的謹慎我具體給你看什麼叫做"},{"start":434.366,"end":463.729,"text":"不敢給他不利的處分有不利的處分要有法律效果來保証會2021年的時候他們就委託研究計畫就直接講嘛公務人員安慰辦法因為在公務人員保障法19條的授權規定裡面沒有給他有強制性的作為沒有處罰的規定沒有罰則沒有用嘛你們今天修了安慰辦法但公務人員保障法長得還是一模一樣啊長得還是一模一樣啊"},{"start":465.066,"end":490.293,"text":"你們結構性的問題修了這個安慰辦法一樣沒有解決那針對有關職場霸凌申訴的部分台灣民眾黨黨團針對職場霸凌防治法我們已經提了專法透過專法來加以處理任市長贊不贊成基本上我會尊重那個委員的一個提議第二個我更進一步具體的問"},{"start":490.973,"end":518.102,"text":"不可以做不當的差別待遇喔你如果做不當的差別待遇因為申訴接下來有行政法環的規定這才是有法律效果嘛法律人在講的法律效果指的就是這個嘛你不能做什麼事你如果做了什麼事接下來會有什麼法律效果但是你們的安慰辦法根本沒有啊你們的安慰辦法完全沒有啊跟當初保訓會在2021年花錢找學者做的委託研究計畫"},{"start":519.864,"end":537.328,"text":"所指責的缺點長得一模一樣啊這樣的修法方向人事長贊不贊成不過我這裡要跟委員報告在整個公告版本之後我們在跟保訓會談的時候事實上有加入那個裁罰的部分規範在第幾條你說你們有加入裁罰的部分嗎規範在第幾條"},{"start":549.727,"end":559.527,"text":"保障法本身對嘛 就不是安慰辦法嘛所以我一開始我開宗明義就請教你那個安慰辦法你看了你滿意不滿意嘛"},{"start":560.576,"end":589.555,"text":"我看了以後我就很直接跟人事長講我看了就不滿意為什麼看了不滿意沒有辦法解決問題所以你們現在重新協調過了以後現在是要推動公務人員保障法的修正草案嗎現在是公務員保障法跟安慰辦法同時一起處理這樣兩邊來確保當事人的一些潛意確保還有給機關所長我跟人事長講一個基本的法律概念"},{"start":590.456,"end":607.555,"text":"你公務人員保障法修完了以後你的安慰辦法才可以有牙齒這存在很久的問題剛剛你的同事在下面幫你打PASS我就在問說你們是不是要推動公務人員保障法的修法你的同事一直在那邊點頭你可能沒有看到"},{"start":608.975,"end":628.205,"text":"我們同步在進行我跟你講這種事情所謂同步在進行公務人員保障法你如果沒有用法律的層次把它修好的話你去處理安慰辦法一樣沒有辦法解決問題現在我一個最關鍵的問題公務人員保障法的修法草案這個會席可以送來嗎"},{"start":634.139,"end":647.469,"text":"這個考試院我們了解的是安慰辦法大概四月底五月初會送到六合院來備查啦對啊 但現在問題就出來了你公務人員保障法沒有修你的安慰辦法"},{"start":648.209,"end":665.019,"text":"就還是一樣按照舊的公務人員保障法授權訂的安慰辦法一樣沒有牙齒阿阿你剛剛又講同步阿現在又說4月會先被查保障法應該現在前序部也同時在找相關機關在訂阿我這樣講好了啦有的時候"},{"start":665.999,"end":691.385,"text":"一些不幸的事件發生的時候,社會輿論會很強烈政府機關會信誓旦旦的說要做什麼事情但是往往新聞過後,沒有人在意了沒有人在意了你們的腳步,是不是有真的做到當初承諾的,就需要追蹤而我的習慣,我相信任市長應該非常熟悉我的習慣是我一定會追到底"},{"start":692.253,"end":720.101,"text":"我一定會追到底這個會期喔這個會期針對有關於公務人員保障法也好針對有關於職場霸凌的專法也好針對有關於公務人員調薪機制的法治化也好我期待行政部門趕快把你們的東西送到本會來你們東西如果不送來我會拜託召委排審因為台灣民眾黨黨團我們全部修法的版本全部都提出來了"},{"start":721.344,"end":737.916,"text":"從公務人員調薪機制的法制化到職場霸凌的專法到公務人員保障法我們全部都提出來了我希望喔到時候不要因為行政機關提不出法案又繼續拖延可以嗎會朝這個方向努力好謝謝好謝謝黃國昌委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":133,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時8分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：人事長早。我從去年開始就一直非常關注軍公教調薪機制的法制化，事實上，這個法制化拖延過久，從2018年的時候，監察院就具體地指責。你應該還記得去年5月的時候，你們把軍公教調薪機制法制化的書面報告送來時，那時候我有問你，因為你答應去年年底以前要把法案送到本院來，我還問你會不會跳票，你說不會跳票，會送到大院來；我還問你年底以前會送來嗎？然後你說會送來，請問有送來嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員給我這個機會來說明。事實上，在上一年的12月6號我們已經簽陳行政院，而且在12月7號的時候，由林政務委員召開會議審查，我們現在就等行政院送來大院審議。"],["黃委員國昌：所以到目前為止沒有送來是確定嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們還沒有確定。"],["黃委員國昌：我們就事實一個一個來，第一個，法案沒有送到立法院來，確定？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["黃委員國昌：所以是行政院不願意嗎？是行政院在拖嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：它等著要排入整個行政院院會的議程。"],["黃委員國昌：今天你送來的業務報告中，軍公教調薪機制的法制化也不是你今年的重要工作目標，所以我看了之後就很困惑，現在大家是在打假球嗎？去年答應我年底以前要送到立法院來，也沒有送來啊！現在推給行政院，在推給行政院以後，又落入了我們大家非常熟悉的無限循環，什麼叫非常熟悉的無限循環？就是不斷地研議、持續地研議，不曉得要研議到什麼時候嘛！而且你今天的業務報告上面有寫軍公教調薪機制的法制化嗎？有嗎？對自己的業務報告你自己熟不熟？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那個是在上一年寫的。"],["黃委員國昌：上一年寫的有完成嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們現在就等行政院排入，在院會討論完以後就會送到大院。"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦！對於行政機關大家這樣皮球踢來踢去，我真的嘆為觀止，真的嘆為觀止啦！去年答應要送來，我還特別問你會不會跳票，你還信誓旦旦地跟我說不會跳票，到現在就是沒看到嘛！照過去的經驗法則，如果要等行政院送來，我看要等到天荒地老了啊！到2028年都不會送來。我進一步具體地問，針對有關於軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案，我們台灣民眾黨已經正式提案，如果我拜託召委排案審查，你們會不會反對？是樂觀其成，還是因為希望等行政院所以反對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：樂觀其成。"],["黃委員國昌：絕對樂觀其成嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，第二個重要的問題，就是公務人員的安衛辦法，我們從2018年第一次在立法院見面的時候，你應該記得很清楚嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是的，委員跟我講過。"],["黃委員國昌：當初說要調整，可是沒有調整，所以在去年3月，我也肯定你很有擔當，因為答應的事情沒有做到，你在司法及法制委員會鄭重道歉，我也接受了，我覺得政務官應該要像你這個樣子，就是要有擔當，既然答應的事情沒有做到就鄭重道歉，這是應該要有的一個基本風範，而不是自己講的東西跳票了以後，還在那邊東拉西扯，不願意負起政治責任。但是您道歉歸道歉，該追的事情我還是會追。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，關於保訓會，一樣！我去年追保訓會的問題，因為真正的主管單位是考試院的保訓會，只不過保訓會在訂這個辦法的時候通常會跟人總去做一個協商。我去年追了半天，保訓會在今年2月的時候終於預告了安衛辦法修正草案，人事總處有沒有看過這個安衛辦法修正草案？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有看過。"],["黃委員國昌：滿意嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：在整個過程一直有跟我們討論。"],["黃委員國昌：滿意嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這不是滿意的問題，而是兩院之間大家對相關條文的規定有一個共識，這是比較重要的。"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在對這個安衛辦法是人總也有共識的喔？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：就是在整個過程我們兩方都有持續高密度的一起討論。"],["黃委員國昌：我為什麼要先問這個問題？因為看了安衛辦法以後，我要跟人事長報告，我非常不滿意，我非常不滿意啊！我為什麼說非常不滿意？剛剛你在報告的時候也有提到，針對有關於職場霸凌的機制、公務人員被霸凌的機制，在去年的時候我們勞動部發生的不幸事件讓整個社會憤怒，我們的政府也說要改革，在這一次的安衛辦法裡面，我的確有看到針對職場霸凌的部分有設置相關的條文規定，人事長，你看過嘛？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我有看過。"],["黃委員國昌：你覺得那樣的條文規定足夠嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得要考慮到條文的完整性，還有可執行性還是蠻重要的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們就來看它的完整性跟可執行性，來看一下，在第三十六條規定各機關不可以因為公務人員提起職場霸凌的申訴而給予不利的行政處分。那我要問下一個問題，如果因為職場霸凌的申訴而給予不利的處分，它的法律效果是什麼？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員問法律效果，事實上，當事人他可以跟保訓會提起救濟。"],["黃委員國昌：不用這個規定，我也可以提起救濟啊！重點是什麼？重點就是你要確保一個安全的職場環境，不要讓他因為提起申訴而受到不利益的處分嘛！那你應該要有的法律效果是什麼？就是制止他，讓他不敢做不利益的處分，所以我才問你這個法律效果是什麼嘛！如果這個法律效果是你受到不利益的處分，你自己可以去救濟，那第三十六條這個規定不就形同具文嗎？是寫好看的，有這一條、沒這一條都一樣，我本來就可以提起行政救濟啊！我有說錯嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我這裡跟委員補充一下，很重要的是這一次有增加對機關首長的懲處，給他一個責任，這個很重要，以前大家等於就是說按照一個標準程序、保訓會的救濟，可是機關首長如果承受一些懲處的壓力，他在執行這件事情的時候會更加謹慎。"],["黃委員國昌：我具體給你看什麼叫做不敢給他不利益的處分，如果有做不利益的處分，就要有法律效果。保訓會在2021年的時候有委託研究計畫，就直接講嘛！就是公務人員安衛辦法，因為在公務人員保障法第十九條的授權規定裡面，沒有規定有強制性的作為，沒有處罰的規定，沒有罰則就沒有用，你們今天修了安衛辦法，但公務人員保障法長得還是一模一樣，長得還是一模一樣啊！你們有結構性的問題，即使修了這個安衛辦法，問題一樣沒有解決。有關於職場霸凌申訴的部分，我們台灣民眾黨黨團針對職場霸凌已經提了職場霸凌防治法草案，透過專法來加以處理，人事長贊不贊成？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：基本上，我會尊重委員的提議。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個，我更進一步具體地問，不可以做不當的差別待遇，你如果做不當的差別待遇，因為申訴接下來有行政罰鍰的規定，這才是有法律效果，法律人在講的法律效果指的就是這個嘛！就是你不能做什麼事，你如果做了什麼事，接下來會有什麼法律效果，但是你們的安衛辦法根本就沒有，你們的安衛辦法完全沒有啊！跟當初保訓會在2021年花錢找學者做的委託研究計畫所指責的缺點長得一模一樣，對這樣的修法方向人事長贊不贊成？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不過我這裡要跟委員報告，在整個版本公告之後，我們在跟保訓會談的時候，事實上有加入裁罰的部分，可能這一部分的資料還沒有送到……"],["黃委員國昌：規範在第幾條？你說你們有加入裁罰的部分。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有，有加入裁罰。"],["黃委員國昌：規範在第幾條？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是保障法本身。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！那就不是安衛辦法嘛！所以在一開始我開宗明義就請教你，你看了那個安衛辦法以後滿意不滿意嘛！我就很直接跟人事長講，我看了就不滿意，我為什麼看了以後會不滿意？因為沒有辦法解決問題嘛！所以你們重新協調過了以後，現在是要推動公務人員保障法的修正草案嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：現在是公務人員保障法跟安衛辦法同時一起處理，兩邊來確保當事人的權益，還有給機關首長課責、更大的壓力。"],["黃委員國昌：我跟人事長講一個基本的法律概念，你在公務人員保障法修完了以後，你的安衛辦法才可以有牙齒，這是存在很久的問題嘛！剛剛你的同事在下面幫你打pass，我就在問你們是不是要推動公務人員保障法的修法，你的同事一直在那邊點頭，你可能沒有看到……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我知道，我們是同步在進行。"],["黃委員國昌：是，我跟你講，像這種事情，所謂同步在進行，對公務人員保障法你如果沒有用法律的層次把它修好的話，你只去處理安衛辦法，一樣沒有辦法解決問題嘛！現在我提一個最關鍵的問題，公務人員保障法的修法草案在這個會期可以送來嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：據我們了解，安衛辦法大概在4月底、5月初會送到立法院來備查。"],["黃委員國昌：對，但是現在問題就出來了，公務人員保障法沒有修，安衛辦法就還是一樣，因為按照舊的公務人員保障法授權訂的安衛辦法一樣沒有牙齒啊！你剛剛是講同步，現在又說4月會先備查。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對於保障法，銓敘部應該現在也同時找相關機關在修訂。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了，在一些不幸事件發生的時候，社會輿論會很強烈，政府機關就會信誓旦旦地說要做什麼事情，但是往往新聞過後，沒有人在意了，就沒有人在意了，你們的腳步是不是有真的做到當初承諾的，就需要追蹤。我相信人事長應該非常熟悉我的習慣，我的習慣就是我一定會追到底，我一定會追到底，在這個會期，針對有關於公務人員保障法也好，針對有關於職場霸凌的專法也好，針對有關於公務人員調薪機制的法制化也好，我期待行政部門趕快把你們的東西送到本會來，你們東西如果不送來，我會拜託召委排審，因為台灣民眾黨黨團的修法版本全部都提出來了，從公務人員調薪機制的法制化、到職場霸凌的專法、到公務人員保障法，我們全部都提出來了，我希望到時候不要因為行政機關提不出法案又繼續拖延，可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：會朝這個方向努力。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。","接下來請林倩綺委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林倩綺","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈發惠","羅智強","王義川","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","吳宗憲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00001"}}}