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807億是來自哪裡\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"達\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 441.374, \"end\": 441.534, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 441.534, \"end\": 441.974, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 441.974, \"end\": 442.094, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 442.094, \"end\": 442.654, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"%\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 442.654, \"end\": 442.814, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"漏\", \"start\": 442.814, \"end\": 443.054, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 443.054, \"end\": 443.255, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"率\", \"start\": 443.255, \"end\": 443.375, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 443.375, \"end\": 443.815, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 443.815, \"end\": 444.235, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": 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0.875}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 456.862, \"end\": 457.262, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 457.262, \"end\": 457.782, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 457.782, \"end\": 458.322, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"租\", \"start\": 458.322, \"end\": 458.563, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 458.563, \"end\": 458.703, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 458.703, \"end\": 458.863, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 458.863, \"end\": 459.103, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 459.103, \"end\": 459.603, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 459.603, \"end\": 459.843, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"餘\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 459.843, \"end\": 459.983, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 459.983, \"end\": 460.123, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 460.123, \"end\": 460.424, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 460.424, \"end\": 460.684, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 460.684, \"end\": 460.944, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 460.944, \"end\": 461.104, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 461.104, \"end\": 461.284, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 461.284, \"end\": 462.865, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"擠\"}, {\"word\": \"債\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 462.865, \"end\": 462.945, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 462.945, \"end\": 462.965, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 462.965, \"end\": 463.065, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 463.065, \"end\": 463.085, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"哪\", \"start\": 463.085, \"end\": 463.105, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}]}, {\"start\": 465.171, \"end\": 479.876, \"text\": \"除了80億是由行政院的公務預算補助之外其他的部分自來水公司要跟銀行借款所以807億你要繼續借款啊727億727億要繼續借款啊對部長您看看這個還要繼續借款所以你在這邊來你已經舉在1167.99億喔部長他7 我說807億要投入這是報章雜誌寫的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"除\", \"start\": 465.171, \"end\": 465.351, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 465.351, \"end\": 465.991, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 465.991, \"end\": 466.171, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 466.171, \"end\": 466.732, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 466.732, \"end\": 466.952, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 466.952, \"end\": 467.132, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 467.132, \"end\": 467.332, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 467.332, \"end\": 467.512, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 467.512, \"end\": 468.212, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 468.212, \"end\": 468.472, \"score\": 0.903}, 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00:01:20,367\n報告員我們現在是這個按照綜合電業公司型態繼續經營好那因為時間也到啦那這個本席也提出修法啦如果你支持綜合電業\n\n5\n00:01:21,328 --> 00:01:50,208\n那您對於未來台電有沒有可能如果修法沒過我們電業法現在本席有提案很多委員都有提案那就是希望它維持綜合電業那但是您的主張就是也代表這個行政院的主張是要未來要分割為發電輸電售電三家公司嗎還是你們主張還是維持綜合電業那我提到這個東西是我們電業自由化這件事情其實早就落實了\n\n6\n00:01:51,129 --> 00:02:01,178\n在我們現在的再生能源發電你不管是用太陽能發電或是離岸發電其實就已經是發電獨立了輸電是來自於還是讓我們台電負起這個責任授電\n\n7\n00:02:06,582 --> 00:02:18,827\n也各自在這個平台當中自己去售店所以其實在再生人員已經落實了電業自由化那也有其他的必要性但是對於台電本身他是不是應該\n\n8\n00:02:22,648 --> 00:02:28,413\n也要這樣的分割電業自由化還是以綜合電業的方式繼續經營那這就很重要因為這會跟未來現在念茲在茲媒體上報的上個禮拜二本席來質詢說會不會漲電價我們院長說這個沒有那麼快我一質詢好的下個禮拜就說要漲民生用電6%這個是爆派我也不知道實質上怎麼樣那所以呢你這邊也有提到兩個重點質詢完後\n\n9\n00:02:50,111 --> 00:02:58,933\n您也提到說台電的公司是不可以自己沒有辦法決定電價是由電價審議委員會來決定第二個台電公司可以自己決定是否舉債我想我們也都很清楚你們的表述是說我們補助是為了減緩配合政策導致營運不佳的資金成本壓力這也會回歸到如果你是綜合電業的話跟分割為三家的公司來經營\n\n10\n00:03:19,336 --> 00:03:25,678\n控股之後有三家的營運你要怎麼的對於要漲電價如果你要補貼那補到哪裡去啊到底是要我舉債是發電這家公司要舉呢還是輸電的要舉呢售電的要舉呢那還是乾脆就是總公司控股公司你來舉債啊那幹嘛還要分割\n\n11\n00:03:42,506 --> 00:03:47,670\n就沒有那個意義因為今天對台灣還是一個小國家我們畢竟還是一個島國有需要在這個整個這個我們的這個整個島國當中這個國家當中這個業電業當中他富有那麼大的我們對電信的電力的韌性之高度的要求為什麼\n\n12\n00:04:03,542 --> 00:04:25,260\n因為我們有天災不斷有颱風有地震我想我們高雄是感受最深的一個山陀颱風一個楷米颱風受災的都真的是因為一個樹倒了整個台電同仁幾乎都在收尾那誰要做是發電公司要做輸電公司要做還是售電公司要去講究\n\n13\n00:04:26,081 --> 00:04:34,970\n我跟總公司叫不動的我三家獨立啊因為這涉及成本啊我出去就是成本耶加班費耶所以說這個我要請部長這邊要很審慎的去表達也要一個很強烈主張分析是支持台電要以綜合電業的方式繼續營運的\n\n14\n00:04:46,061 --> 00:05:07,041\n好那在這邊也就拜託部長您再正視這個問題好那再來呢這個我們台電的虧損現在已經累計4200億那他的資本額呢也不過5000億所以呢這個負債比例高達92.7本期想知道預算復議案沒有通過在沒撥補台電公司的情況之下\n\n15\n00:05:08,122 --> 00:05:20,272\n經濟部或者是台電你怎麼緩解營運的債務及可預期的虧損我所可預期的虧損是今年已經可預計再虧600億所以4200億再加上600億4800億部長您來自企業一個資本額不過5000億啊所以這要怎麼營運下去是不是可以回答一下\n\n16\n00:05:29,740 --> 00:05:45,434\n報告委員我們還是一樣懇請大院能夠同意我們行政院所準備的一千億要補助台電公司我們懇請大院能夠支持來改善財務的部分\n\n17\n00:05:46,127 --> 00:06:11,461\n是但是如果加上今年的六千六百億四千八百億那也不過補助他一千億還有三千八百億的虧損那怎麼辦呢是我們在內部會啟動這個全面改善的計畫所以我們可以從各個管理面來精進能夠讓這個公司更具有競爭力所以如果給我們這個\n\n18\n00:06:13,243 --> 00:06:29,184\n補助撥補我想對我們整體的士氣會讓我們早日脫離這樣的一個困境部長我們繼續台水這個說到台水其實我真的要感謝你過往的部長不會那麼重視台水的虧損\n\n19\n00:06:30,205 --> 00:06:49,489\n那真的在我質詢之後您真的在去年11月20日我質詢之後您真的有送上去給行政院所以呢重視他們的這個最重要的成本台水最重要的成本是什麼管線更新啊所以管線更新基本上是要用公共建設的角度來進行應該正常的預算的一個編列可是現在台水是什麼\n\n20\n00:06:53,610 --> 00:07:19,692\n管線更新他是他借錢來做管線更新是這個公司最大的成本所以在您的爭取之下確實台水也讓行政院這個補助80億每年大概20億來做這樣的更新當然這個實在是杯水車薪總是有一個起步那第二個呢經濟部啊你們也這個要降低漏水李卓院長也宣示喔未來8年再投入\n\n21\n00:07:21,374 --> 00:07:43,105\n807億達到先進國家的10%的漏水率的標準那這807億是怎麼來呢我是不是請那個台水公司好可以董事長來謝謝委員的指教那剛才委員有特別提示這807億裡面有巴士是由公務預算來預租台水公司其餘的部分由自來水公司來擠債你說什麼807億是來自哪裡\n\n22\n00:07:45,171 --> 00:07:59,876\n除了80億是由行政院的公務預算補助之外其他的部分自來水公司要跟銀行借款所以807億你要繼續借款啊727億727億要繼續借款啊對部長您看看這個還要繼續借款所以你在這邊來你已經舉在1167.99億喔部長他7我說807億要投入這是報章雜誌寫的\n\n23\n00:08:14,361 --> 00:08:34,520\n我從就是你們的公布的這個報紙你說700多億所以1167.991再加上700多億他要去逼他們再舉債然後呢降低漏水率部長這個您要重視我們在向院在向院裡面這個要要求院裡面再播再再準備這個\n\n24\n00:08:36,121 --> 00:08:41,544\n我在這邊具體建議啦直接在這個債務上1167.99億再加上你的807億也好或者700多億啊分兩年全部進行撥補啦才能夠進行他的資金壓力因為他的所有的作為都是在做管線維護水源的維持還有他的支息借了1167再加上807億也好700多億也好他這要支息耶\n\n25\n00:09:03,038 --> 00:09:15,730\n只惜在他們用借來的錢變成我的經常門然後經常門之後我再去付利息這個是非常非常不正常扭曲的一個預算編列謝謝委員的指教好那我講到這個真財所謂國營事業跟產業界真財\n\n26\n00:09:22,817 --> 00:09:37,717\n誘因不足如何吸引左邊這個是台電的官網資料僱用人員的起薪跟派用人員的起薪以及前五年的薪資我們看2024年去年的國營事業倒考率近三年最低\n\n27\n00:09:38,297 --> 00:10:05,557\n所以我在攬財的部分已經不具吸引力了好如果他跟主計總數去年的全國受僱員工每人每月總薪資平均6萬相比當然這個數字如果放在並不是很多人認同但總是一個數字如果跟這樣子的一個主計處6萬多塊的每人每月的總薪資相比我講這是主計處的數字那很明顯國營事業是偏低的好我們再來看離職率\n\n28\n00:10:06,698 --> 00:10:11,142\n倒考率很低3年最低離職率這就剩3年就好110年的3.8的離職率上升到113年的4.4億所以部長這要讓您重視招財不易留財更難\n\n29\n00:10:21,792 --> 00:10:46,239\n好那包括國營事業為什麼這本席感受很深尤其來自高雄因為國營事業的作業風險是易於公值的颱風來襲的時候民間企業是放颱風架但國營事業的從業人員都是以最快速度恢復民生運作的目標來面對天災的挑戰所以所有便利的民生條件都是我們國營事業同仁披星戴月所換來的\n\n30\n00:10:47,239 --> 00:11:01,753\n所以你看看這些報導我們要去修管先報館搶修三天內恢復供水三天已經讓我民眾受不了可是他們卻是24小時不斷的加班再加班包括台電你看也有這種風險搶修人員墜谷\n\n31\n00:11:04,415 --> 00:11:07,877\n觸電為了一個把一個鳥巢摘下來30%的燒燙傷啊好再來所以具體要求啦這個是部長這邊我們要跟你一起努力的對於二列的這個財務運用去遊說行政院遊說主計處運用超增稅收來補貼國營事業的配合不管只有台電中油中油有得到你們的補貼\n\n32\n00:11:30,811 --> 00:11:54,112\n台水也一定要得到你們補貼為什麼我說用超增稅收超增稅收有四個來源第一個營利營所稅營業稅還有這個貨物稅第四個鎮所稅全部來自企業所以我會超增表示我們歸於返鄉的政策是得到肯定的所以企業用水用電\n\n33\n00:11:54,833 --> 00:11:59,235\n多了所以他營業額也多了所以我從他超徵的稅收當中再回到來撥補我的國營事業不管水電都是合理的這是本席的論述所以在這個超徵稅收的部分這個裁員那當然也有這個有我們立法院當政議員說每人發一萬塊有人發兩萬塊\n\n34\n00:12:16,684 --> 00:12:35,771\n但是是不是怎麼讓我的預算更有效益的用用公共建設我覺得這個部分讓國營事業來這個得到超增稅收的理論基礎是因為他全部來自企業我今天企業用電用水多了那我當然用他們的超增稅收去回饋我的台電台水因為我動漲啊我動漲他的電我動漲他的水去穩定台灣的通貨膨脹啊\n\n35\n00:12:43,154 --> 00:13:05,591\n功不可沒所以在這邊這個請部長這邊要能夠給予這樣他們的支持那第二個對於流財攬財的部分希望研議合一的工作條件並適度提高危險加緊部長針對這兩個訴求你怎麼看這個謝謝委員的支持跟指教我們會這個依這個方向來努力好部長我們一起加油謝謝我們現在請\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2776\t3746\t好有请郭部长\n14201\t33326\t副長來我們本行呢關心這個國營事業生活掌聲的背後勿忘國營事業的披星戴月要我們來討論國營事業的營運及人才的隱憂那這個國營事業的在台高足以及第二個台水維護管線計劃自在物提升\n34066\t62194\t還有我們的誘因是否不足而再讓國營事業在招攬優質人才上有所困境以及這個國營事業員工執勤經常伴隨著巨大的危險好 部長本席想知道您的主張對於台電它是要用綜合電業的形態繼續營運還是要分割為發電 輸電 售電三家公司來營運本席想知道您的主張是什麼\n64989\t80367\t報告員我們現在是這個按照綜合電業公司型態繼續經營好那因為時間也到啦那這個本席也提出修法啦如果你支持綜合電業\n81328\t110208\t那您對於未來台電有沒有可能如果修法沒過我們電業法現在本席有提案很多委員都有提案那就是希望它維持綜合電業那但是您的主張就是也代表這個行政院的主張是要未來要分割為發電 輸電 售電三家公司嗎還是你們主張還是維持綜合電業那我提到這個東西是我們電業自由化這件事情其實早就落實了\n111129\t121178\t在我們現在的再生能源發電你不管是用太陽能發電或是離岸發電其實就已經是發電獨立了輸電是來自於還是讓我們台電負起這個責任授電\n126582\t138827\t也各自在這個平台當中自己去售店所以其實在再生人員已經落實了電業自由化那也有其他的必要性但是對於台電本身他是不是應該\n142648\t148413\t也要這樣的分割電業自由化還是以綜合電業的方式繼續經營那這就很重要因為這會跟未來現在念茲在茲媒體上報的上個禮拜二本席來質詢說會不會漲電價我們院長說這個沒有那麼快我一質詢好的下個禮拜就說要漲民生用電6%這個是爆派我也不知道實質上怎麼樣那所以呢你這邊也有提到兩個重點質詢完後\n170111\t178933\t您也提到說台電的公司是不可以自己沒有辦法決定電價是由電價審議委員會來決定第二個台電公司可以自己決定是否舉債我想我們也都很清楚你們的表述是說我們補助是為了減緩配合政策導致營運不佳的資金成本壓力這也會回歸到如果你是綜合電業的話跟分割為三家的公司來經營\n199336\t205678\t控股之後有三家的營運你要怎麼的對於要漲電價如果你要補貼那補到哪裡去啊到底是要我舉債是發電這家公司要舉呢還是輸電的要舉呢 售電的要舉呢那還是乾脆就是總公司控股公司你來舉債啊那幹嘛還要分割\n222506\t227670\t就沒有那個意義因為今天對台灣還是一個小國家我們畢竟還是一個島國有需要在這個整個這個我們的這個整個島國當中這個國家當中這個業電業當中他富有那麼大的我們對電信的電力的韌性之高度的要求為什麼\n243542\t265260\t因為我們有天災不斷 有颱風 有地震我想我們高雄是感受最深的一個山陀颱風 一個楷米颱風受災的都真的是因為一個樹倒了 整個台電同仁幾乎都在收尾那誰要做 是發電公司要做 輸電公司要做 還是售電公司要去講究\n266081\t274970\t我跟總公司叫不動的我三家獨立啊因為這涉及成本啊我出去就是成本耶加班費耶所以說這個我要請部長這邊要很審慎的去表達也要一個很強烈主張分析是支持台電要以綜合電業的方式繼續營運的\n286061\t307041\t好那在這邊也就拜託部長您再正視這個問題好那再來呢這個我們台電的虧損現在已經累計4200億那他的資本額呢也不過5000億所以呢這個負債比例高達92.7本期想知道預算復議案沒有通過在沒撥補台電公司的情況之下\n308122\t320272\t經濟部或者是台電你怎麼緩解營運的債務及可預期的虧損我所可預期的虧損是今年已經可預計再虧600億所以4200億再加上600億4800億部長您來自企業一個資本額不過5000億啊所以這要怎麼營運下去是不是可以回答一下\n329740\t345434\t報告委員我們還是一樣懇請大院能夠同意我們行政院所準備的一千億要補助台電公司我們懇請大院能夠支持來改善財務的部分\n346127\t371461\t是 但是如果加上今年的六千六百億 四千八百億那也不過補助他一千億還有三千八百億的虧損 那怎麼辦呢是 我們在內部會啟動這個全面改善的計畫所以我們可以從各個管理面來精進能夠讓這個公司更具有競爭力所以如果給我們這個\n373243\t389184\t補助撥補我想對我們整體的士氣會讓我們早日脫離這樣的一個困境部長我們繼續台水這個說到台水其實我真的要感謝你過往的部長不會那麼重視台水的虧損\n390205\t409489\t那真的在我質詢之後 您真的在去年11月20日我質詢之後 您真的有送上去給行政院所以呢重視他們的這個最重要的成本 台水最重要的成本是什麼 管線更新啊所以管線更新基本上是要用公共建設的角度來進行應該正常的預算的一個編列 可是現在台水是什麼\n413610\t439692\t管線更新他是他借錢來做管線更新是這個公司最大的成本所以在您的爭取之下確實台水也讓行政院這個補助80億每年大概20億來做這樣的更新當然這個實在是杯水車薪總是有一個起步那第二個呢經濟部啊你們也這個要降低漏水李卓院長也宣示喔未來8年再投入\n441374\t463105\t807億達到先進國家的10%的漏水率的標準那這807億是怎麼來呢我是不是請那個台水公司好 可以 董事長來謝謝委員的指教那剛才委員有特別提示這807億裡面有巴士是由公務預算來預租台水公司其餘的部分由自來水公司來擠債你說什麼 807億是來自哪裡\n465171\t479876\t除了80億是由行政院的公務預算補助之外其他的部分自來水公司要跟銀行借款所以807億你要繼續借款啊727億727億要繼續借款啊對部長您看看這個還要繼續借款所以你在這邊來你已經舉在1167.99億喔部長他7 我說807億要投入這是報章雜誌寫的\n494361\t514520\t我從就是你們的公布的這個報紙你說700多億所以1167.991再加上700多億他要去逼他們再舉債然後呢降低漏水率部長這個您要重視我們在向院在向院裡面這個要要求院裡面再播再再準備這個\n516121\t521544\t我在這邊具體建議啦直接在這個債務上1167.99億再加上你的807億也好 或者700多億啊分兩年全部進行撥補啦才能夠進行他的資金壓力因為他的所有的作為都是在做管線維護水源的維持 還有他的支息借了1167再加上807億也好 700多億也好他這要支息耶\n543038\t555730\t只惜在他們用借來的錢變成我的經常門然後經常門之後我再去付利息這個是非常非常不正常扭曲的一個預算編列謝謝委員的指教好那我講到這個真財所謂國營事業跟產業界真財\n562817\t577717\t誘因不足如何吸引 左邊這個是台電的官網資料 僱用人員的起薪跟派用人員的起薪 以及前五年的薪資我們看2024年 去年的國營事業倒考率近三年最低\n578297\t605557\t所以我在攬財的部分已經不具吸引力了好如果他跟主計總數去年的全國受僱員工每人每月總薪資平均6萬相比當然這個數字如果放在並不是很多人認同但總是一個數字如果跟這樣子的一個主計處6萬多塊的每人每月的總薪資相比我講這是主計處的數字那很明顯國營事業是偏低的好我們再來看離職率\n606698\t611142\t倒考率很低 3年最低離職率 這就剩3年就好110年的3.8的離職率上升到113年的4.4億所以部長這要讓您重視招財不易 留財更難\n621792\t646239\t好那包括國營事業為什麼這本席感受很深尤其來自高雄因為國營事業的作業風險是易於公值的颱風來襲的時候民間企業是放颱風架但國營事業的從業人員都是以最快速度恢復民生運作的目標來面對天災的挑戰所以所有便利的民生條件都是我們國營事業同仁披星戴月所換來的\n647239\t661753\t所以你看看這些報導我們要去修管先報館搶修三天內恢復供水三天已經讓我民眾受不了可是他們卻是24小時不斷的加班再加班包括台電你看也有這種風險搶修人員墜谷\n664415\t667877\t觸電為了一個把一個鳥巢摘下來30%的燒燙傷啊好再來所以具體要求啦這個是部長這邊我們要跟你一起努力的對於二列的這個財務運用去遊說行政院遊說主計處運用超增稅收來補貼國營事業的配合不管只有台電 中油 中油有得到你們的補貼\n690811\t714112\t台水也一定要得到你們補貼為什麼我說用超增稅收超增稅收有四個來源第一個營利營所稅營業稅還有這個貨物稅第四個鎮所稅全部來自企業所以我會超增表示我們歸於返鄉的政策是得到肯定的所以企業用水用電\n714833\t719235\t多了所以他營業額也多了所以我從他超徵的稅收當中再回到來撥補我的國營事業不管水電都是合理的這是本席的論述所以在這個超徵稅收的部分這個裁員那當然也有這個有我們立法院當政議員說每人發一萬塊有人發兩萬塊\n736684\t755771\t但是是不是怎麼讓我的預算更有效益的用用公共建設我覺得這個部分讓國營事業來這個得到超增稅收的理論基礎是因為他全部來自企業我今天企業用電用水多了那我當然用他們的超增稅收去回饋我的台電台水因為我動漲啊我動漲他的電我動漲他的水去穩定台灣的通貨膨脹啊\n763154\t785591\t功不可沒所以在這邊這個請部長這邊要能夠給予這樣他們的支持那第二個對於流財攬財的部分希望研議合一的工作條件並適度提高危險加緊部長針對這兩個訴求你怎麼看這個謝謝委員的支持跟指教我們會這個依這個方向來努力好部長我們一起加油謝謝我們現在請\n","txt":"好有请郭部长\n副長來我們本行呢關心這個國營事業生活掌聲的背後勿忘國營事業的披星戴月要我們來討論國營事業的營運及人才的隱憂那這個國營事業的在台高足以及第二個台水維護管線計劃自在物提升\n還有我們的誘因是否不足而再讓國營事業在招攬優質人才上有所困境以及這個國營事業員工執勤經常伴隨著巨大的危險好 部長本席想知道您的主張對於台電它是要用綜合電業的形態繼續營運還是要分割為發電 輸電 售電三家公司來營運本席想知道您的主張是什麼\n報告員我們現在是這個按照綜合電業公司型態繼續經營好那因為時間也到啦那這個本席也提出修法啦如果你支持綜合電業\n那您對於未來台電有沒有可能如果修法沒過我們電業法現在本席有提案很多委員都有提案那就是希望它維持綜合電業那但是您的主張就是也代表這個行政院的主張是要未來要分割為發電 輸電 售電三家公司嗎還是你們主張還是維持綜合電業那我提到這個東西是我們電業自由化這件事情其實早就落實了\n在我們現在的再生能源發電你不管是用太陽能發電或是離岸發電其實就已經是發電獨立了輸電是來自於還是讓我們台電負起這個責任授電\n也各自在這個平台當中自己去售店所以其實在再生人員已經落實了電業自由化那也有其他的必要性但是對於台電本身他是不是應該\n也要這樣的分割電業自由化還是以綜合電業的方式繼續經營那這就很重要因為這會跟未來現在念茲在茲媒體上報的上個禮拜二本席來質詢說會不會漲電價我們院長說這個沒有那麼快我一質詢好的下個禮拜就說要漲民生用電6%這個是爆派我也不知道實質上怎麼樣那所以呢你這邊也有提到兩個重點質詢完後\n您也提到說台電的公司是不可以自己沒有辦法決定電價是由電價審議委員會來決定第二個台電公司可以自己決定是否舉債我想我們也都很清楚你們的表述是說我們補助是為了減緩配合政策導致營運不佳的資金成本壓力這也會回歸到如果你是綜合電業的話跟分割為三家的公司來經營\n控股之後有三家的營運你要怎麼的對於要漲電價如果你要補貼那補到哪裡去啊到底是要我舉債是發電這家公司要舉呢還是輸電的要舉呢 售電的要舉呢那還是乾脆就是總公司控股公司你來舉債啊那幹嘛還要分割\n就沒有那個意義因為今天對台灣還是一個小國家我們畢竟還是一個島國有需要在這個整個這個我們的這個整個島國當中這個國家當中這個業電業當中他富有那麼大的我們對電信的電力的韌性之高度的要求為什麼\n因為我們有天災不斷 有颱風 有地震我想我們高雄是感受最深的一個山陀颱風 一個楷米颱風受災的都真的是因為一個樹倒了 整個台電同仁幾乎都在收尾那誰要做 是發電公司要做 輸電公司要做 還是售電公司要去講究\n我跟總公司叫不動的我三家獨立啊因為這涉及成本啊我出去就是成本耶加班費耶所以說這個我要請部長這邊要很審慎的去表達也要一個很強烈主張分析是支持台電要以綜合電業的方式繼續營運的\n好那在這邊也就拜託部長您再正視這個問題好那再來呢這個我們台電的虧損現在已經累計4200億那他的資本額呢也不過5000億所以呢這個負債比例高達92.7本期想知道預算復議案沒有通過在沒撥補台電公司的情況之下\n經濟部或者是台電你怎麼緩解營運的債務及可預期的虧損我所可預期的虧損是今年已經可預計再虧600億所以4200億再加上600億4800億部長您來自企業一個資本額不過5000億啊所以這要怎麼營運下去是不是可以回答一下\n報告委員我們還是一樣懇請大院能夠同意我們行政院所準備的一千億要補助台電公司我們懇請大院能夠支持來改善財務的部分\n是 但是如果加上今年的六千六百億 四千八百億那也不過補助他一千億還有三千八百億的虧損 那怎麼辦呢是 我們在內部會啟動這個全面改善的計畫所以我們可以從各個管理面來精進能夠讓這個公司更具有競爭力所以如果給我們這個\n補助撥補我想對我們整體的士氣會讓我們早日脫離這樣的一個困境部長我們繼續台水這個說到台水其實我真的要感謝你過往的部長不會那麼重視台水的虧損\n那真的在我質詢之後 您真的在去年11月20日我質詢之後 您真的有送上去給行政院所以呢重視他們的這個最重要的成本 台水最重要的成本是什麼 管線更新啊所以管線更新基本上是要用公共建設的角度來進行應該正常的預算的一個編列 可是現在台水是什麼\n管線更新他是他借錢來做管線更新是這個公司最大的成本所以在您的爭取之下確實台水也讓行政院這個補助80億每年大概20億來做這樣的更新當然這個實在是杯水車薪總是有一個起步那第二個呢經濟部啊你們也這個要降低漏水李卓院長也宣示喔未來8年再投入\n807億達到先進國家的10%的漏水率的標準那這807億是怎麼來呢我是不是請那個台水公司好 可以 董事長來謝謝委員的指教那剛才委員有特別提示這807億裡面有巴士是由公務預算來預租台水公司其餘的部分由自來水公司來擠債你說什麼 807億是來自哪裡\n除了80億是由行政院的公務預算補助之外其他的部分自來水公司要跟銀行借款所以807億你要繼續借款啊727億727億要繼續借款啊對部長您看看這個還要繼續借款所以你在這邊來你已經舉在1167.99億喔部長他7 我說807億要投入這是報章雜誌寫的\n我從就是你們的公布的這個報紙你說700多億所以1167.991再加上700多億他要去逼他們再舉債然後呢降低漏水率部長這個您要重視我們在向院在向院裡面這個要要求院裡面再播再再準備這個\n我在這邊具體建議啦直接在這個債務上1167.99億再加上你的807億也好 或者700多億啊分兩年全部進行撥補啦才能夠進行他的資金壓力因為他的所有的作為都是在做管線維護水源的維持 還有他的支息借了1167再加上807億也好 700多億也好他這要支息耶\n只惜在他們用借來的錢變成我的經常門然後經常門之後我再去付利息這個是非常非常不正常扭曲的一個預算編列謝謝委員的指教好那我講到這個真財所謂國營事業跟產業界真財\n誘因不足如何吸引 左邊這個是台電的官網資料 僱用人員的起薪跟派用人員的起薪 以及前五年的薪資我們看2024年 去年的國營事業倒考率近三年最低\n所以我在攬財的部分已經不具吸引力了好如果他跟主計總數去年的全國受僱員工每人每月總薪資平均6萬相比當然這個數字如果放在並不是很多人認同但總是一個數字如果跟這樣子的一個主計處6萬多塊的每人每月的總薪資相比我講這是主計處的數字那很明顯國營事業是偏低的好我們再來看離職率\n倒考率很低 3年最低離職率 這就剩3年就好110年的3.8的離職率上升到113年的4.4億所以部長這要讓您重視招財不易 留財更難\n好那包括國營事業為什麼這本席感受很深尤其來自高雄因為國營事業的作業風險是易於公值的颱風來襲的時候民間企業是放颱風架但國營事業的從業人員都是以最快速度恢復民生運作的目標來面對天災的挑戰所以所有便利的民生條件都是我們國營事業同仁披星戴月所換來的\n所以你看看這些報導我們要去修管先報館搶修三天內恢復供水三天已經讓我民眾受不了可是他們卻是24小時不斷的加班再加班包括台電你看也有這種風險搶修人員墜谷\n觸電為了一個把一個鳥巢摘下來30%的燒燙傷啊好再來所以具體要求啦這個是部長這邊我們要跟你一起努力的對於二列的這個財務運用去遊說行政院遊說主計處運用超增稅收來補貼國營事業的配合不管只有台電 中油 中油有得到你們的補貼\n台水也一定要得到你們補貼為什麼我說用超增稅收超增稅收有四個來源第一個營利營所稅營業稅還有這個貨物稅第四個鎮所稅全部來自企業所以我會超增表示我們歸於返鄉的政策是得到肯定的所以企業用水用電\n多了所以他營業額也多了所以我從他超徵的稅收當中再回到來撥補我的國營事業不管水電都是合理的這是本席的論述所以在這個超徵稅收的部分這個裁員那當然也有這個有我們立法院當政議員說每人發一萬塊有人發兩萬塊\n但是是不是怎麼讓我的預算更有效益的用用公共建設我覺得這個部分讓國營事業來這個得到超增稅收的理論基礎是因為他全部來自企業我今天企業用電用水多了那我當然用他們的超增稅收去回饋我的台電台水因為我動漲啊我動漲他的電我動漲他的水去穩定台灣的通貨膨脹啊\n功不可沒所以在這邊這個請部長這邊要能夠給予這樣他們的支持那第二個對於流財攬財的部分希望研議合一的工作條件並適度提高危險加緊部長針對這兩個訴求你怎麼看這個謝謝委員的支持跟指教我們會這個依這個方向來努力好部長我們一起加油謝謝我們現在請\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.776 --> 00:03.746\n好有请郭部长\n\n00:14.201 --> 00:33.326\n副長來我們本行呢關心這個國營事業生活掌聲的背後勿忘國營事業的披星戴月要我們來討論國營事業的營運及人才的隱憂那這個國營事業的在台高足以及第二個台水維護管線計劃自在物提升\n\n00:34.066 --> 01:02.194\n還有我們的誘因是否不足而再讓國營事業在招攬優質人才上有所困境以及這個國營事業員工執勤經常伴隨著巨大的危險好部長本席想知道您的主張對於台電它是要用綜合電業的形態繼續營運還是要分割為發電輸電售電三家公司來營運本席想知道您的主張是什麼\n\n01:04.989 --> 01:20.367\n報告員我們現在是這個按照綜合電業公司型態繼續經營好那因為時間也到啦那這個本席也提出修法啦如果你支持綜合電業\n\n01:21.328 --> 01:50.208\n那您對於未來台電有沒有可能如果修法沒過我們電業法現在本席有提案很多委員都有提案那就是希望它維持綜合電業那但是您的主張就是也代表這個行政院的主張是要未來要分割為發電輸電售電三家公司嗎還是你們主張還是維持綜合電業那我提到這個東西是我們電業自由化這件事情其實早就落實了\n\n01:51.129 --> 02:01.178\n在我們現在的再生能源發電你不管是用太陽能發電或是離岸發電其實就已經是發電獨立了輸電是來自於還是讓我們台電負起這個責任授電\n\n02:06.582 --> 02:18.827\n也各自在這個平台當中自己去售店所以其實在再生人員已經落實了電業自由化那也有其他的必要性但是對於台電本身他是不是應該\n\n02:22.648 --> 02:28.413\n也要這樣的分割電業自由化還是以綜合電業的方式繼續經營那這就很重要因為這會跟未來現在念茲在茲媒體上報的上個禮拜二本席來質詢說會不會漲電價我們院長說這個沒有那麼快我一質詢好的下個禮拜就說要漲民生用電6%這個是爆派我也不知道實質上怎麼樣那所以呢你這邊也有提到兩個重點質詢完後\n\n02:50.111 --> 02:58.933\n您也提到說台電的公司是不可以自己沒有辦法決定電價是由電價審議委員會來決定第二個台電公司可以自己決定是否舉債我想我們也都很清楚你們的表述是說我們補助是為了減緩配合政策導致營運不佳的資金成本壓力這也會回歸到如果你是綜合電業的話跟分割為三家的公司來經營\n\n03:19.336 --> 03:25.678\n控股之後有三家的營運你要怎麼的對於要漲電價如果你要補貼那補到哪裡去啊到底是要我舉債是發電這家公司要舉呢還是輸電的要舉呢售電的要舉呢那還是乾脆就是總公司控股公司你來舉債啊那幹嘛還要分割\n\n03:42.506 --> 03:47.670\n就沒有那個意義因為今天對台灣還是一個小國家我們畢竟還是一個島國有需要在這個整個這個我們的這個整個島國當中這個國家當中這個業電業當中他富有那麼大的我們對電信的電力的韌性之高度的要求為什麼\n\n04:03.542 --> 04:25.260\n因為我們有天災不斷有颱風有地震我想我們高雄是感受最深的一個山陀颱風一個楷米颱風受災的都真的是因為一個樹倒了整個台電同仁幾乎都在收尾那誰要做是發電公司要做輸電公司要做還是售電公司要去講究\n\n04:26.081 --> 04:34.970\n我跟總公司叫不動的我三家獨立啊因為這涉及成本啊我出去就是成本耶加班費耶所以說這個我要請部長這邊要很審慎的去表達也要一個很強烈主張分析是支持台電要以綜合電業的方式繼續營運的\n\n04:46.061 --> 05:07.041\n好那在這邊也就拜託部長您再正視這個問題好那再來呢這個我們台電的虧損現在已經累計4200億那他的資本額呢也不過5000億所以呢這個負債比例高達92.7本期想知道預算復議案沒有通過在沒撥補台電公司的情況之下\n\n05:08.122 --> 05:20.272\n經濟部或者是台電你怎麼緩解營運的債務及可預期的虧損我所可預期的虧損是今年已經可預計再虧600億所以4200億再加上600億4800億部長您來自企業一個資本額不過5000億啊所以這要怎麼營運下去是不是可以回答一下\n\n05:29.740 --> 05:45.434\n報告委員我們還是一樣懇請大院能夠同意我們行政院所準備的一千億要補助台電公司我們懇請大院能夠支持來改善財務的部分\n\n05:46.127 --> 06:11.461\n是但是如果加上今年的六千六百億四千八百億那也不過補助他一千億還有三千八百億的虧損那怎麼辦呢是我們在內部會啟動這個全面改善的計畫所以我們可以從各個管理面來精進能夠讓這個公司更具有競爭力所以如果給我們這個\n\n06:13.243 --> 06:29.184\n補助撥補我想對我們整體的士氣會讓我們早日脫離這樣的一個困境部長我們繼續台水這個說到台水其實我真的要感謝你過往的部長不會那麼重視台水的虧損\n\n06:30.205 --> 06:49.489\n那真的在我質詢之後您真的在去年11月20日我質詢之後您真的有送上去給行政院所以呢重視他們的這個最重要的成本台水最重要的成本是什麼管線更新啊所以管線更新基本上是要用公共建設的角度來進行應該正常的預算的一個編列可是現在台水是什麼\n\n06:53.610 --> 07:19.692\n管線更新他是他借錢來做管線更新是這個公司最大的成本所以在您的爭取之下確實台水也讓行政院這個補助80億每年大概20億來做這樣的更新當然這個實在是杯水車薪總是有一個起步那第二個呢經濟部啊你們也這個要降低漏水李卓院長也宣示喔未來8年再投入\n\n07:21.374 --> 07:43.105\n807億達到先進國家的10%的漏水率的標準那這807億是怎麼來呢我是不是請那個台水公司好可以董事長來謝謝委員的指教那剛才委員有特別提示這807億裡面有巴士是由公務預算來預租台水公司其餘的部分由自來水公司來擠債你說什麼807億是來自哪裡\n\n07:45.171 --> 07:59.876\n除了80億是由行政院的公務預算補助之外其他的部分自來水公司要跟銀行借款所以807億你要繼續借款啊727億727億要繼續借款啊對部長您看看這個還要繼續借款所以你在這邊來你已經舉在1167.99億喔部長他7我說807億要投入這是報章雜誌寫的\n\n08:14.361 --> 08:34.520\n我從就是你們的公布的這個報紙你說700多億所以1167.991再加上700多億他要去逼他們再舉債然後呢降低漏水率部長這個您要重視我們在向院在向院裡面這個要要求院裡面再播再再準備這個\n\n08:36.121 --> 08:41.544\n我在這邊具體建議啦直接在這個債務上1167.99億再加上你的807億也好或者700多億啊分兩年全部進行撥補啦才能夠進行他的資金壓力因為他的所有的作為都是在做管線維護水源的維持還有他的支息借了1167再加上807億也好700多億也好他這要支息耶\n\n09:03.038 --> 09:15.730\n只惜在他們用借來的錢變成我的經常門然後經常門之後我再去付利息這個是非常非常不正常扭曲的一個預算編列謝謝委員的指教好那我講到這個真財所謂國營事業跟產業界真財\n\n09:22.817 --> 09:37.717\n誘因不足如何吸引左邊這個是台電的官網資料僱用人員的起薪跟派用人員的起薪以及前五年的薪資我們看2024年去年的國營事業倒考率近三年最低\n\n09:38.297 --> 10:05.557\n所以我在攬財的部分已經不具吸引力了好如果他跟主計總數去年的全國受僱員工每人每月總薪資平均6萬相比當然這個數字如果放在並不是很多人認同但總是一個數字如果跟這樣子的一個主計處6萬多塊的每人每月的總薪資相比我講這是主計處的數字那很明顯國營事業是偏低的好我們再來看離職率\n\n10:06.698 --> 10:11.142\n倒考率很低3年最低離職率這就剩3年就好110年的3.8的離職率上升到113年的4.4億所以部長這要讓您重視招財不易留財更難\n\n10:21.792 --> 10:46.239\n好那包括國營事業為什麼這本席感受很深尤其來自高雄因為國營事業的作業風險是易於公值的颱風來襲的時候民間企業是放颱風架但國營事業的從業人員都是以最快速度恢復民生運作的目標來面對天災的挑戰所以所有便利的民生條件都是我們國營事業同仁披星戴月所換來的\n\n10:47.239 --> 11:01.753\n所以你看看這些報導我們要去修管先報館搶修三天內恢復供水三天已經讓我民眾受不了可是他們卻是24小時不斷的加班再加班包括台電你看也有這種風險搶修人員墜谷\n\n11:04.415 --> 11:07.877\n觸電為了一個把一個鳥巢摘下來30%的燒燙傷啊好再來所以具體要求啦這個是部長這邊我們要跟你一起努力的對於二列的這個財務運用去遊說行政院遊說主計處運用超增稅收來補貼國營事業的配合不管只有台電中油中油有得到你們的補貼\n\n11:30.811 --> 11:54.112\n台水也一定要得到你們補貼為什麼我說用超增稅收超增稅收有四個來源第一個營利營所稅營業稅還有這個貨物稅第四個鎮所稅全部來自企業所以我會超增表示我們歸於返鄉的政策是得到肯定的所以企業用水用電\n\n11:54.833 --> 11:59.235\n多了所以他營業額也多了所以我從他超徵的稅收當中再回到來撥補我的國營事業不管水電都是合理的這是本席的論述所以在這個超徵稅收的部分這個裁員那當然也有這個有我們立法院當政議員說每人發一萬塊有人發兩萬塊\n\n12:16.684 --> 12:35.771\n但是是不是怎麼讓我的預算更有效益的用用公共建設我覺得這個部分讓國營事業來這個得到超增稅收的理論基礎是因為他全部來自企業我今天企業用電用水多了那我當然用他們的超增稅收去回饋我的台電台水因為我動漲啊我動漲他的電我動漲他的水去穩定台灣的通貨膨脹啊\n\n12:43.154 --> 13:05.591\n功不可沒所以在這邊這個請部長這邊要能夠給予這樣他們的支持那第二個對於流財攬財的部分希望研議合一的工作條件並適度提高危險加緊部長針對這兩個訴求你怎麼看這個謝謝委員的支持跟指教我們會這個依這個方向來努力好部長我們一起加油謝謝我們現在請\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.776,"end":3.746,"text":"好有请郭部长"},{"start":14.201,"end":33.326,"text":"副長來我們本行呢關心這個國營事業生活掌聲的背後勿忘國營事業的披星戴月要我們來討論國營事業的營運及人才的隱憂那這個國營事業的在台高足以及第二個台水維護管線計劃自在物提升"},{"start":34.066,"end":62.194,"text":"還有我們的誘因是否不足而再讓國營事業在招攬優質人才上有所困境以及這個國營事業員工執勤經常伴隨著巨大的危險好 部長本席想知道您的主張對於台電它是要用綜合電業的形態繼續營運還是要分割為發電 輸電 售電三家公司來營運本席想知道您的主張是什麼"},{"start":64.989,"end":80.367,"text":"報告員我們現在是這個按照綜合電業公司型態繼續經營好那因為時間也到啦那這個本席也提出修法啦如果你支持綜合電業"},{"start":81.328,"end":110.208,"text":"那您對於未來台電有沒有可能如果修法沒過我們電業法現在本席有提案很多委員都有提案那就是希望它維持綜合電業那但是您的主張就是也代表這個行政院的主張是要未來要分割為發電 輸電 售電三家公司嗎還是你們主張還是維持綜合電業那我提到這個東西是我們電業自由化這件事情其實早就落實了"},{"start":111.129,"end":121.178,"text":"在我們現在的再生能源發電你不管是用太陽能發電或是離岸發電其實就已經是發電獨立了輸電是來自於還是讓我們台電負起這個責任授電"},{"start":126.582,"end":138.827,"text":"也各自在這個平台當中自己去售店所以其實在再生人員已經落實了電業自由化那也有其他的必要性但是對於台電本身他是不是應該"},{"start":142.648,"end":148.413,"text":"也要這樣的分割電業自由化還是以綜合電業的方式繼續經營那這就很重要因為這會跟未來現在念茲在茲媒體上報的上個禮拜二本席來質詢說會不會漲電價我們院長說這個沒有那麼快我一質詢好的下個禮拜就說要漲民生用電6%這個是爆派我也不知道實質上怎麼樣那所以呢你這邊也有提到兩個重點質詢完後"},{"start":170.111,"end":178.933,"text":"您也提到說台電的公司是不可以自己沒有辦法決定電價是由電價審議委員會來決定第二個台電公司可以自己決定是否舉債我想我們也都很清楚你們的表述是說我們補助是為了減緩配合政策導致營運不佳的資金成本壓力這也會回歸到如果你是綜合電業的話跟分割為三家的公司來經營"},{"start":199.336,"end":205.678,"text":"控股之後有三家的營運你要怎麼的對於要漲電價如果你要補貼那補到哪裡去啊到底是要我舉債是發電這家公司要舉呢還是輸電的要舉呢 售電的要舉呢那還是乾脆就是總公司控股公司你來舉債啊那幹嘛還要分割"},{"start":222.506,"end":227.67,"text":"就沒有那個意義因為今天對台灣還是一個小國家我們畢竟還是一個島國有需要在這個整個這個我們的這個整個島國當中這個國家當中這個業電業當中他富有那麼大的我們對電信的電力的韌性之高度的要求為什麼"},{"start":243.542,"end":265.26,"text":"因為我們有天災不斷 有颱風 有地震我想我們高雄是感受最深的一個山陀颱風 一個楷米颱風受災的都真的是因為一個樹倒了 整個台電同仁幾乎都在收尾那誰要做 是發電公司要做 輸電公司要做 還是售電公司要去講究"},{"start":266.081,"end":274.97,"text":"我跟總公司叫不動的我三家獨立啊因為這涉及成本啊我出去就是成本耶加班費耶所以說這個我要請部長這邊要很審慎的去表達也要一個很強烈主張分析是支持台電要以綜合電業的方式繼續營運的"},{"start":286.061,"end":307.041,"text":"好那在這邊也就拜託部長您再正視這個問題好那再來呢這個我們台電的虧損現在已經累計4200億那他的資本額呢也不過5000億所以呢這個負債比例高達92.7本期想知道預算復議案沒有通過在沒撥補台電公司的情況之下"},{"start":308.122,"end":320.272,"text":"經濟部或者是台電你怎麼緩解營運的債務及可預期的虧損我所可預期的虧損是今年已經可預計再虧600億所以4200億再加上600億4800億部長您來自企業一個資本額不過5000億啊所以這要怎麼營運下去是不是可以回答一下"},{"start":329.74,"end":345.434,"text":"報告委員我們還是一樣懇請大院能夠同意我們行政院所準備的一千億要補助台電公司我們懇請大院能夠支持來改善財務的部分"},{"start":346.127,"end":371.461,"text":"是 但是如果加上今年的六千六百億 四千八百億那也不過補助他一千億還有三千八百億的虧損 那怎麼辦呢是 我們在內部會啟動這個全面改善的計畫所以我們可以從各個管理面來精進能夠讓這個公司更具有競爭力所以如果給我們這個"},{"start":373.243,"end":389.184,"text":"補助撥補我想對我們整體的士氣會讓我們早日脫離這樣的一個困境部長我們繼續台水這個說到台水其實我真的要感謝你過往的部長不會那麼重視台水的虧損"},{"start":390.205,"end":409.489,"text":"那真的在我質詢之後 您真的在去年11月20日我質詢之後 您真的有送上去給行政院所以呢重視他們的這個最重要的成本 台水最重要的成本是什麼 管線更新啊所以管線更新基本上是要用公共建設的角度來進行應該正常的預算的一個編列 可是現在台水是什麼"},{"start":413.61,"end":439.692,"text":"管線更新他是他借錢來做管線更新是這個公司最大的成本所以在您的爭取之下確實台水也讓行政院這個補助80億每年大概20億來做這樣的更新當然這個實在是杯水車薪總是有一個起步那第二個呢經濟部啊你們也這個要降低漏水李卓院長也宣示喔未來8年再投入"},{"start":441.374,"end":463.105,"text":"807億達到先進國家的10%的漏水率的標準那這807億是怎麼來呢我是不是請那個台水公司好 可以 董事長來謝謝委員的指教那剛才委員有特別提示這807億裡面有巴士是由公務預算來預租台水公司其餘的部分由自來水公司來擠債你說什麼 807億是來自哪裡"},{"start":465.171,"end":479.876,"text":"除了80億是由行政院的公務預算補助之外其他的部分自來水公司要跟銀行借款所以807億你要繼續借款啊727億727億要繼續借款啊對部長您看看這個還要繼續借款所以你在這邊來你已經舉在1167.99億喔部長他7 我說807億要投入這是報章雜誌寫的"},{"start":494.361,"end":514.52,"text":"我從就是你們的公布的這個報紙你說700多億所以1167.991再加上700多億他要去逼他們再舉債然後呢降低漏水率部長這個您要重視我們在向院在向院裡面這個要要求院裡面再播再再準備這個"},{"start":516.121,"end":521.544,"text":"我在這邊具體建議啦直接在這個債務上1167.99億再加上你的807億也好 或者700多億啊分兩年全部進行撥補啦才能夠進行他的資金壓力因為他的所有的作為都是在做管線維護水源的維持 還有他的支息借了1167再加上807億也好 700多億也好他這要支息耶"},{"start":543.038,"end":555.73,"text":"只惜在他們用借來的錢變成我的經常門然後經常門之後我再去付利息這個是非常非常不正常扭曲的一個預算編列謝謝委員的指教好那我講到這個真財所謂國營事業跟產業界真財"},{"start":562.817,"end":577.717,"text":"誘因不足如何吸引 左邊這個是台電的官網資料 僱用人員的起薪跟派用人員的起薪 以及前五年的薪資我們看2024年 去年的國營事業倒考率近三年最低"},{"start":578.297,"end":605.557,"text":"所以我在攬財的部分已經不具吸引力了好如果他跟主計總數去年的全國受僱員工每人每月總薪資平均6萬相比當然這個數字如果放在並不是很多人認同但總是一個數字如果跟這樣子的一個主計處6萬多塊的每人每月的總薪資相比我講這是主計處的數字那很明顯國營事業是偏低的好我們再來看離職率"},{"start":606.698,"end":611.142,"text":"倒考率很低 3年最低離職率 這就剩3年就好110年的3.8的離職率上升到113年的4.4億所以部長這要讓您重視招財不易 留財更難"},{"start":621.792,"end":646.239,"text":"好那包括國營事業為什麼這本席感受很深尤其來自高雄因為國營事業的作業風險是易於公值的颱風來襲的時候民間企業是放颱風架但國營事業的從業人員都是以最快速度恢復民生運作的目標來面對天災的挑戰所以所有便利的民生條件都是我們國營事業同仁披星戴月所換來的"},{"start":647.239,"end":661.753,"text":"所以你看看這些報導我們要去修管先報館搶修三天內恢復供水三天已經讓我民眾受不了可是他們卻是24小時不斷的加班再加班包括台電你看也有這種風險搶修人員墜谷"},{"start":664.415,"end":667.877,"text":"觸電為了一個把一個鳥巢摘下來30%的燒燙傷啊好再來所以具體要求啦這個是部長這邊我們要跟你一起努力的對於二列的這個財務運用去遊說行政院遊說主計處運用超增稅收來補貼國營事業的配合不管只有台電 中油 中油有得到你們的補貼"},{"start":690.811,"end":714.112,"text":"台水也一定要得到你們補貼為什麼我說用超增稅收超增稅收有四個來源第一個營利營所稅營業稅還有這個貨物稅第四個鎮所稅全部來自企業所以我會超增表示我們歸於返鄉的政策是得到肯定的所以企業用水用電"},{"start":714.833,"end":719.235,"text":"多了所以他營業額也多了所以我從他超徵的稅收當中再回到來撥補我的國營事業不管水電都是合理的這是本席的論述所以在這個超徵稅收的部分這個裁員那當然也有這個有我們立法院當政議員說每人發一萬塊有人發兩萬塊"},{"start":736.684,"end":755.771,"text":"但是是不是怎麼讓我的預算更有效益的用用公共建設我覺得這個部分讓國營事業來這個得到超增稅收的理論基礎是因為他全部來自企業我今天企業用電用水多了那我當然用他們的超增稅收去回饋我的台電台水因為我動漲啊我動漲他的電我動漲他的水去穩定台灣的通貨膨脹啊"},{"start":763.154,"end":785.591,"text":"功不可沒所以在這邊這個請部長這邊要能夠給予這樣他們的支持那第二個對於流財攬財的部分希望研議合一的工作條件並適度提高危險加緊部長針對這兩個訴求你怎麼看這個謝謝委員的支持跟指教我們會這個依這個方向來努力好部長我們一起加油謝謝我們現在請"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":56,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時19分）有請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["林委員岱樺：部長早。本席關心國營事業，「生活掌聲的背後，勿忘國營事業的披星戴月」，我們來討論國營事業的營運及人才隱憂：一、國營事業債臺高築，二、台水維護管線計畫致債務提升，三、誘因是否不足，讓國營事業在招攬優質人才上有所困境？四、國營事業員工執勤經常伴隨巨大危險。部長，本席想知道您的主張，對於台電，是要用綜合電業的型態繼續營運，還是要分割為發電、輸電、售電三家公司來營運？本席想知道您的主張是什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們現在是按照綜合電業公司型態繼續經營。"],["林委員岱樺：好，因為時間到了，本席也提出修法了，如果你支持綜合電業，未來如果修法沒過，現在本席有針對電業法提案，很多委員也都有提案，希望台電維持綜合電業，但是您的主張，也代表行政院的主張，未來是要分割為發電、輸電、售電三家公司，還是你們主張維持綜合電業？我提出這個問題，是因為電業自由化這件事情其實早就落實了，現在的再生能源發電，不管是太陽能發電或是離岸發電，其實就已經是發電獨立，輸電雖然還是讓台電負起責任，但售電也是各自在平臺中銷售，所以再生能源部分已經落實了電業自由化，也有其必要性，但是對於台電本身，是不是應該也要因為電業自由化而這樣分割，還是以綜合電業的方式繼續經營？這很重要，因為這會跟現在念茲在茲，以及媒體上報導的電價有關。","上禮拜二本席質詢會不會漲電價？院長說沒有那麼快，但我一質詢完的下個禮拜就說要漲民生用電6%，這個當然是報派，我不知道實際情形怎麼樣。另外，你也有提到兩個重點，我質詢完後，你說第一，台電公司自己沒有辦法決定電價，要由電價審議委員會決定。第二，台電公司可以自己決定是否舉債。我想我們都很清楚，你們的表述是說補助是為了減緩配合政策導致營運不佳的資金成本壓力，這也回歸到剛才的議題，如果台電是控股之後分三家來營運，現在要漲電價，如果政府要補貼，那要補到哪裡去？到底是發電的這一家公司要舉債、輸電的公司要舉債，還是售電的公司要舉債？還是乾脆就總公司、控股公司來舉債？那幹嘛還要分割？沒有那個意義嘛！臺灣畢竟是一個小國家、一個島國，有需要在整個國家當中，讓台電負有那麼大的責任，也就是對電信、電力韌性的高度要求，為什麼？因為我們天災不斷，有颱風、有地震，我想我們高雄感受是最深的，一個山陀兒颱風、一個凱米颱風，真的因為一棵樹倒了，整個台電同仁幾乎都要出動收尾，如果分割了，那誰要來做？是發電公司要做，輸電公司要做，還是售電公司要去搶救？我看總公司叫不動，三家都是獨立公司啊！這裡面涉及到成本，出去就要成本、加班費，所以請部長要很審慎的表達，也要有一個強烈主張，本席是支持台電要以綜合電業的方式繼續營運，在這邊也拜託部長再正視這個問題。","再來，台電虧損現在已經累計4,200億，它的資本額也不過5,000億，所以負債比例高達92.7%，本席想知道預算覆議案沒有通過，在沒有撥補台電公司的情況之下，經濟部或者是台電怎麼緩解營運的債務及可預期的虧損？我所謂可預期的虧損，是今年已經可預期再虧600億，4,200億再加上600億，等於4,800億。部長，您來自企業，一個資本額不過5,000億的公司，要怎麼營運下去？是不是可以回答一下？"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，我們還是一樣懇請大院能夠同意行政院所準備的1,000億補助台電公司，懇請大院能夠支持改善台電財務。"],["林委員岱樺：是，可是如果加上今年的600億，是4,800億，撥補它1,000億也不夠，還有3,800億的虧損，怎麼辦？"],["郭部長智輝：我們在內部會啟動全面改善計畫，可以從各個管理面來精進，讓這個公司更具競爭力。如果給我們補助、撥補，我想對整體的士氣有幫助，會讓我們早日脫離這樣的困境。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，我們繼續談台水。說到台水，其實我真的要感謝你，過往的部長不會那麼重視台水的虧損，在去年11月20日我質詢之後，您真的有送上去給行政院，並重視他們最重要的成本。台水最重要的成本是什麼？管線更新。管線更新基本上是要用公共建設的角度來進行，應該有正常預算的編列，可是現在台水是什麼？管線更新是它借錢來做，管線更新是這個公司最大的成本，所以在您的爭取之下，確實台水也讓行政院補助80億，每年大概20億來做這樣的更新。當然這實在是杯水車薪，但總是有一個起步。","第二個，經濟部也要降低漏水率，卓院長也宣示未來8年再投入807億，達到先進國家10%漏水率的標準，那這807億是怎麼來呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我是不是請台水公司跟您報告。"],["林委員岱樺：好，可以，董事長來。"],["李董事長嘉榮：謝謝委員的指教。剛才委員有特別提示，這807億裡面有80億是由公務預算來挹注台水公司，其餘的部分由自來水公司舉債。"],["林委員岱樺：你說什麼？807億是來自哪裡？"],["李董事長嘉榮：除了80億是由行政院的公務預算補助之外，其他的部分自來水公司要跟銀行借款。"],["林委員岱樺：所以807億你要繼續借款？"],["李董事長嘉榮：727億。"],["林委員岱樺：727億要繼續借款？"],["李董事長嘉榮：對。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，您看看，這個還要繼續借款。你已經舉債1,167.99億！部長，我說要投入807億，這是報章雜誌寫的，就是你們公布的，但剛剛說七百多億，所以1,167.99億再加上七百多億，要去逼他們再舉債，然後降低漏水率。部長，這個您要重視。"],["郭部長智輝：我們再向院裡面要求。"],["林委員岱樺：好。"],["郭部長智輝：請院裡面再準備這筆錢給我們。"],["林委員岱樺：我在這邊具體建議，直接在這個債務上，1,167.99億再加上你的807億也好，或者七百多億，分兩年全部進行撥補啦！才能夠解決它的資金壓力，因為它的所有作為，都是在做管線維護、水源的維持，還有它的孳息，借了1,167億，再加上807億也好，七百多億也好，這要孳息耶！他們用借來的錢變成經常門，然後經常門之後，再去付利息，這個是非常、非常不正常、扭曲的預算編列。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員的指教。"],["林委員岱樺：我講到「爭才」，所謂國營事業跟產業界爭才，誘因不足如何吸引？左邊這個是台電的官網資料，僱用人員的起薪跟派用人員的起薪，以及前5年的薪資。我們看去（2024）年的國營事業到考率近3年最低，所以攬才的部分已經不具吸引力了。如果它跟主計總處統計的去年全國受僱員工每人每月總薪資平均6萬相比，當然這個數字並不是很多人認同，但它總是一個數字。如果跟主計處六萬多塊的每人每月總薪資相比，我講這是主計處的數字，那很明顯國營事業是偏低的。我們再來看離職率，到考率很低，近3年最低，離職率就講這3年就好，從110年3.8%的離職率，上升到113年的4.4%，所以這要讓您重視，招才不易，留才更難。","包括國營事業，為什麼本席感受很深？尤其來自高雄，因為國營事業的作業風險是溢於公職的，颱風來襲的時候，民間企業是放颱風假，但國營事業的從業人員都是以最快速度恢復民生運作的目標來面對天災的挑戰，所以所有便利的民生條件都是我們國營事業同仁披星戴月所換來的。你看看這些報導，他們要去修管線，爆管搶修，3天內恢復供水，3天已經讓民眾受不了，可是他們24小時不斷地加班再加班。包括台電也有這種風險，為了搶修能源墜谷，還有觸電，為了把一個鳥巢摘下來，30%的燒燙傷。所以具體要求，這個是我們要跟部長一起努力的，對於惡化的財務，去遊說行政院、遊說主計處，運用超徵稅收來補貼國營事業，不管是台電、中油，中油有得到你們的補貼，台水也一定要得到你們補貼，為什麼我說用超徵稅收？超徵稅收有四個來源：第一個營所稅，營業稅，還有貨物稅，第四個證所稅，全部來自企業，會超徵表示我們鮭魚返鄉的政策是得到肯定的，企業用水用電多了，營業額也多了，所以從超徵的稅收當中再回來撥補國營事業，不管水、電都是合理的，這是本席的論述。","在超徵稅收的部分，這個財源，當然立法院當中也有人說每人發1萬塊，有人說發2萬塊，但是怎麼讓預算更有效益的運用在公共建設，我覺得這個部分讓國營事業得到超徵稅收的理論基礎是因為它全部來自企業，今天企業用電用水多了，當然用他們的超徵稅收去回饋台電、台水，因為凍漲啊！凍漲它的電、凍漲它的水，去穩定臺灣的通貨膨脹，功不可沒，所以在這邊請部長要能夠給予他們支持。第二個，對於留才攬才的部分，希望研議合宜的工作條件，並適度提高危險加給。部長，針對這兩個訴求，你怎麼看？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員的支持跟指教，我們會依這個方向來努力。"],["林委員岱樺：好，部長，我們一起加油，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：現在請賴瑞隆委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","賴士葆","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","郭國文","陳昭姿","林月琴","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","徐富癸","羅智強","陳超明","林德福","牛煦庭","蔡易餘"],"page_start":193,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00004"}}}