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810.045, \"score\": 0.765}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"感\", \"start\": 810.045, \"end\": 811.287, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 811.287, \"end\": 811.467, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 811.467, \"end\": 811.487, \"score\": 0.937}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,337 --> 00:00:16,859\n我們主席還有我們立院行政院同仁大家早安大家好我們有請任市長請任市長委員長您好感謝您上禮拜會我們也就人事的問題有了一些討論在今天一開始我先就其實上禮拜有講過一些但是我針對這個比較憂心的現在公務人員超時過勞的問題\n\n2\n00:00:36,385 --> 00:00:48,850\n那我們可以發現呢這其實很大的一個問題是在制度設計之下那我呼應一下剛才那個黃委員其實也談到好幾個法案其實它一個整體的制度結構會影響到很多所以今天本席要討論的幾項都跟這個有點關係\n\n3\n00:00:52,071 --> 00:01:19,588\n好那我在談剛才我們發現公務人員在制度的設計之下會被推向一個勞動跟報酬不太相當的處境甚至已經有點剝削的情形那過往社會對於公務體系常常都有這種穩定準時上下班的一個印象但是我覺得現在已經這種印象已經跟以前很不一樣了那就本席在行政單位的經驗那如果以勞工的方便勞工的一個概念來講事實上我們都不太合格\n\n4\n00:01:20,188 --> 00:01:33,671\n好所以呢現在情況不同所以很多過勞的案件甚至也有死亡的悲劇那這不是一個個案而是我們可能要了解到它是一個制度性的壓榨機制正在悄然的蔓延\n\n5\n00:01:35,284 --> 00:01:56,415\n人事總署有訂定一個加班費的管制要點表面上每天加班4個小時上限60小時已經過高但是很令人震驚的是有許多的例外條款形同開啟了一個無限制的加班大門就本席了解有的時候為了辦理專案加班上限會提升到6個小時每個月80小時\n\n6\n00:01:58,576 --> 00:02:28,139\n那再進一步如果還要再符合急迫且人力難以調度的條件甚至可以連續三天每天加班至14小時那麼再加上行政院核准以後每三個月可達240小時也超過勞基法所設的每三個月不得超過138小時的這個紅線那請問這樣的制度安排是否仍然符合公務人員保障法的精神\n\n7\n00:02:29,820 --> 00:02:55,721\n謝謝委員給我這個機會說明事實上我們有統計過中央跟地方所有公務人員在最近這三年的平均加班時數大概6.6到9.2個小時平均來講那剛才委員提到的那是屬於極端值我舉一個例子像上一年的三端值可能就會像以前我們在文化單位的那種極端值很不平均嘛對吧你們現在是平均值嘛對不對事實上它會有所謂的\n\n8\n00:02:57,282 --> 00:03:24,546\nHighceiling跟那個Lowceiling那個尖峰跟離峰的問題那我剛才就是針對那個委員所提到的你那個極限值三個月加起來240小時這一種譬如像上一年的那一種山東额颱風你在高雄地區的很多的同仁事實上他為了要很快速的去處理這一些上後處理這種情況是可能發生不過這裡我有跟委員報告\n\n9\n00:03:25,186 --> 00:03:51,881\n我們每一個月對謝謝上次您來拜會的時候我們其實有就這個部分有做一些交流本席這邊要提醒的就是那現在母法僅有規定加班因給予補償但是沒有授權人事主管單位以行政命令的形式將工時擴張超過國際合理的一個勞動標準更遑論制度上還可以容許加班費上限僅有20小時但是這個是最重要的\n\n10\n00:03:52,381 --> 00:04:13,051\n其餘以獎勵及考積來報酬這樣子的做法其實是在制度裡面將剝削的一個狀況合理化那這樣子安排會有點挑戰人口販運防治法所禁止的報酬顯不當且非自願性工作那這個可能會成為一個灰色地帶是不是\n\n11\n00:04:14,111 --> 00:04:35,797\n人事長你應該做一些研議齁那我們都知道去年無性員工在100個小時的這個過勞之後呢那也犧牲了一個性命那法院也認為國家應該要負責任那這樣子的檢討我們是不是可以讓更多無性職員的事情不要在各機關再重演所以這是麻煩\n\n12\n00:04:36,957 --> 00:05:02,506\n你們可以好好的演繹當工作時間毫無節制加班常態化也不給予合理的報酬公務體系裡面其實這個工作已經不是一個體面的工作有的時候會被忽視強迫的勞動場域所以這個悲劇發生之後我相信剛才黃委員這邊所講的應該做一個整體制度的討論我這裡跟委員報告一下\n\n13\n00:05:03,226 --> 00:05:09,610\n我們就不要就個案了啦這兩三年我們是從4.7.8.5通過之後我們每一個月都會針對少數機關少數同仁他加班時數非常不正常而且我們有花文請他說明為什麼要加班這麼久那本席這邊有提醒就是說不要忘記這個獎勵及考積來取代的這個部分是\n\n14\n00:05:30,104 --> 00:05:49,270\n我覺得你們應該好好再處理我同意委員的看法這個是一個重點那最後本席這邊再補充一下因為我要繼續下去下面一個議題整個制度價值的重新校準是不是可以從本席剛才所講的這個內容含義上你們去做一個處理好嗎\n\n15\n00:05:50,546 --> 00:06:16,953\n事實上我覺得現在加班很重要的問題是來自於假如可以從業務流程簡化有些事情更不要這樣做因為我們管制性的東西太多假如管制性的東西我如果要討論業務流程的簡化其實我們還要花時間再去處理業務流程怎麼簡化其實我們要花時間學所以本席講的就是說剛才那種替代性的變成獎勵報酬來替代這個部分請你們了解跟處理我跟委員報告啦\n\n16\n00:06:19,734 --> 00:06:37,602\n這一個我們也有在控制因為我覺得你有加班一定要加班會給你那個獎勵的事實上是屬於你有上限嘛你有一些限制結果你就變相的用這款紅色它事實上是屬於極端值的部分啊你如果說極端值我跟委員報告一件事情如果要說外的你就說極端值不不不\n\n17\n00:06:41,463 --> 00:06:46,745\n我們現在會統計如果用機關加獎也會行穩給那個機關我們私下來討論如果檢測對這點你有問題我們私下來討論好不好好謝謝那另外公務人員的這個出手潮來工時過高那過勞的問題我相信這個已經有很多報導了\n\n18\n00:07:03,991 --> 00:07:23,750\n那這20年來中央機關將去任務化、地方化、法人化及委外化的一個改造目標那許多人力都已經轉進了民營化的全國營企業或者是辦官方色彩非常高的研究機構公務人員的這個人數雖然感覺維持在法定範圍內但是非公務人員的\n\n19\n00:07:25,171 --> 00:07:34,835\n對不起非公務員的政府職員人數卻繼續上升這背後的現象是人力短缺那你們的調查也顯示2023年\n\n20\n00:07:37,412 --> 00:07:57,518\n行政院所屬機關的缺額是29.5%那也就是100人缺了29.5人深入的分析是未運用缺額率也就是不計算在正在申請調動等待國考分發的這個缺額數那中央是這樣地方尤其是那縣市政府呢是缺人\n\n21\n00:07:57,918 --> 00:08:18,676\n但是六都是大家流動率過高的一個缺額這已經不是新聞了那麼2022年的數據看來公務人員離職數是2496人六都1558人那離職的總數佔了62.4%那麼除了部分人員被調往中央以外其他很重要的一個問題還是工作量過大\n\n22\n00:08:19,096 --> 00:08:34,865\n跟剛才我們講的問題也有點接近所以相較於一般縣市六都的負擔也很大所以人力的短缺也導致工作職場的惡化所有的問題都連帶在一起所以我們這樣子的問題人員配置是否需要做一些調整\n\n23\n00:08:36,469 --> 00:08:53,424\n我覺得委員講到一個重點就是會有所謂類似惡性循環的現象因為人進步的速度不夠快工作量沒有做減所以剛才委員的簡報裡面有提到棄任務法棄任務法事實上很重要\n\n24\n00:08:54,588 --> 00:09:16,617\n一個棄任務的話我們事實上在推兩個字啦兩個減啦一個是減掉的減另外一個是減化的減當這兩個字有辦法落實的話大家的工作的loading就不會那麼瘦了謝謝林市長我知道就你們行政上或者是機制上你們都希望減可是這個減背後你會有一些很多的加的東西的代價好這個請你們內部就每一個單位\n\n25\n00:09:19,778 --> 00:09:34,704\n的工作職司的差異性做一個處理跟討論而不是只是說我怎麼整天你們來做我們就真的減對你們來說是減但是對其他單位可能增加一些不是他們專業可以處理的東西請檢討一下好不好跟一些專業的單位來做一個討論接下來我要為錦霄夜間家層來請命\n\n26\n00:09:41,406 --> 00:09:59,538\n那個為基層來做一個處理行政院近期核定6月1號起那警消移民跟這個空中勤務等機關在深夜12點到6點的時候駐外勤務者會知己每小時100元的深夜\n\n27\n00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:14,215\n為勞性勤務津貼聽起來好像得贈好像有6.9萬人要受益但是這第一線人的辛勞其實我感覺到還反這個感覺到蠻心傷的基層的反應可以看到這個\n\n28\n00:10:15,796 --> 00:10:38,010\n補貼其實也蠻沒有實質的意義那也顯示出制度上我們還是需要檢討那這個設計的制度呢其實在輪班的公務員形態及勤務的這個風險是不是有將圍牢這兩個字的這個定義好好做一個處理它是單純的形式條件而不是勞動價值的合理衡量許多基層來反映\n\n29\n00:10:39,392 --> 00:10:45,603\nB超商大夜班的時薪還低你們要不要告訴我一下超商大夜班的時薪大概多少你們有了解嗎\n\n30\n00:10:47,866 --> 00:11:09,444\n大葉班應該差不多兩百多塊兩百多塊嘛,你如果知道是兩百多塊,這就一百多塊嘛警消這一類的工作還有一些圍牢耶但是我的委員報告,他本身就有薪水喔,你那個是extra額外再給他的喔那是沒工喔,他那一點鐘兩百多塊,他就是跟我們捏那兩百多塊喔你跟我上次的報告說,你是怎麼算的\n\n31\n00:11:13,227 --> 00:11:33,260\n這重點就是說,你在夜間,那些超商的時薪,你如果要這樣說,我們就來好好算出來,你說因為有薪水,要加班,危險跟加班費,你們覺得只要一百塊就夠了,低於超商,那你如果是這樣的概念,我們就來好好計算。\n\n32\n00:11:34,261 --> 00:11:39,886\n其實要我幫你補充一下剛才說的那一點鐘加一班它不是加班它是正常班正常班我去輪候晚上那段時間晚上那段時間那報名要沒有那個危險性嗎不不不我說那空間有危險性我們會整理資料送給委員\n\n33\n00:11:53,820 --> 00:12:22,679\n對啦這就很細的所以本席這邊就跟你說是不是就這一些細節那你們可以去了解一下這些實際的狀況那有沒有相對不公平跟不公義的制度那最後我提醒像這個補貼性對不起你這樣子的這個形式化有點形式化的東西讓機車人會陷入一種補貼性操作的邏輯不用是深夜來值班但是呢如果沒有離開那個地方譬如說我們在櫃台不要說櫃台啦警務所在值班\n\n34\n00:12:23,759 --> 00:12:40,836\n蓋在半道戶外才叫做危牢沒有半道戶外就不是危牢這些定義是不是可以討論一下那補償性風險的制度會變成行政操作的一個漏洞那對津貼過低的這個問題其實沒有真正的解決那請你們回去好好的討論跟\n\n35\n00:12:41,957 --> 00:12:59,217\n我們也會提供一些資料給委員我們就像那天在細節上做一個討論那彼此有一些共識最重要的就是這些專業單位最後我提醒一點齁剛才黃國昌委員講的公職人員調薪法制的話本席這邊也是今天其實本來要提醒我現在鄭重的提醒齁\n\n36\n00:12:59,798 --> 00:13:22,333\n不要讓我們覺得家心都要看氣氛等訊息這次其實是某一些權益我們要看整個社會制度在社會的一個報酬率來講還有社會的一個整理你們必須要好好處理這個問題法治化的這個議題是非常重要在合理的指標下我們應該年年有一些調整\n\n37\n00:13:23,214 --> 00:13:31,487\n不要看氣氛等消息感覺有點太多的行政決策干預好不好麻煩做一個處理好謝謝感謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8337\t16859\t我們主席還有我們立院行政院同仁大家早安 大家好我們有請任市長請任市長委員長您好感謝您上禮拜會我們也就人事的問題有了一些討論在今天一開始我先就其實上禮拜有講過一些但是我針對這個比較憂心的現在公務人員超時過勞的問題\n36385\t48850\t那我們可以發現呢這其實很大的一個問題是在制度設計之下那我呼應一下剛才那個黃委員其實也談到好幾個法案其實它一個整體的制度結構會影響到很多所以今天本席要討論的幾項都跟這個有點關係\n52071\t79588\t好 那我在談剛才我們發現公務人員在制度的設計之下會被推向一個勞動跟報酬不太相當的處境甚至已經有點剝削的情形那過往社會對於公務體系常常都有這種穩定準時上下班的一個印象但是我覺得現在已經這種印象已經跟以前很不一樣了那就本席在行政單位的經驗那如果以勞工的方便勞工的一個概念來講事實上我們都不太合格\n80188\t93671\t好所以呢現在情況不同所以很多過勞的案件甚至也有死亡的悲劇那這不是一個個案而是我們可能要了解到它是一個制度性的壓榨機制正在悄然的蔓延\n95284\t116415\t人事總署有訂定一個加班費的管制要點表面上每天加班4個小時上限60小時已經過高但是很令人震驚的是有許多的例外條款形同開啟了一個無限制的加班大門就本席了解有的時候為了辦理專案加班上限會提升到6個小時每個月80小時\n118576\t148139\t那再進一步如果還要再符合急迫且人力難以調度的條件甚至可以連續三天每天加班至14小時那麼再加上行政院核准以後每三個月可達240小時也超過勞基法所設的每三個月不得超過138小時的這個紅線那請問這樣的制度安排是否仍然符合公務人員保障法的精神\n149820\t175721\t謝謝委員給我這個機會說明事實上我們有統計過中央跟地方所有公務人員在最近這三年的平均加班時數大概6.6到9.2個小時平均來講那剛才委員提到的那是屬於極端值我舉一個例子像上一年的三端值可能就會像以前我們在文化單位的那種極端值很不平均嘛對吧你們現在是平均值嘛對不對事實上它會有所謂的\n177282\t204546\tHigh ceiling跟那個Low ceiling那個尖峰跟離峰的問題那我剛才就是針對那個委員所提到的你那個極限值三個月加起來240小時這一種譬如像上一年的那一種山東额颱風你在高雄地區的很多的同仁事實上他為了要很快速的去處理這一些上後處理這種情況是可能發生不過這裡我有跟委員報告\n205186\t231881\t我們每一個月對 謝謝上次您來拜會的時候我們其實有就這個部分有做一些交流本席這邊要提醒的就是那現在母法僅有規定加班因給予補償但是沒有授權人事主管單位以行政命令的形式將工時擴張超過國際合理的一個勞動標準更遑論制度上還可以容許加班費上限僅有20小時但是這個是最重要的\n232381\t253051\t其餘以獎勵及考積來報酬這樣子的做法其實是在制度裡面將剝削的一個狀況合理化那這樣子安排會有點挑戰人口販運防治法所禁止的報酬顯不當且非自願性工作那這個可能會成為一個灰色地帶是不是\n254111\t275797\t人事長你應該做一些研議齁那我們都知道去年無性員工在100個小時的這個過勞之後呢那也犧牲了一個性命那法院也認為國家應該要負責任那這樣子的檢討我們是不是可以讓更多無性職員的事情不要在各機關再重演所以這是麻煩\n276957\t302506\t你們可以好好的演繹當工作時間毫無節制加班常態化也不給予合理的報酬公務體系裡面其實這個工作已經不是一個體面的工作有的時候會被忽視強迫的勞動場域所以這個悲劇發生之後我相信剛才黃委員這邊所講的應該做一個整體制度的討論我這裡跟委員報告一下\n303226\t309610\t我們就不要就個案了啦 這兩三年我們是從4.7.8.5通過之後我們每一個月都會針對少數機關 少數同仁他加班時數非常不正常而且我們有花文請他說明為什麼要加班這麼久那本席這邊有提醒就是說不要忘記這個獎勵及考積來取代的這個部分是\n330104\t349270\t我覺得你們應該好好再處理我同意委員的看法這個是一個重點那最後本席這邊再補充一下因為我要繼續下去下面一個議題整個制度價值的重新校準是不是可以從本席剛才所講的這個內容含義上你們去做一個處理好嗎\n350546\t376953\t事實上我覺得現在加班很重要的問題是來自於假如可以從業務流程簡化有些事情更不要這樣做因為我們管制性的東西太多假如管制性的東西我如果要討論業務流程的簡化其實我們還要花時間再去處理業務流程怎麼簡化其實我們要花時間學所以本席講的就是說剛才那種替代性的變成獎勵報酬來替代這個部分請你們了解跟處理我跟委員報告啦\n379734\t397602\t這一個我們也有在控制因為我覺得你有加班一定要加班會給你那個獎勵的事實上是屬於你有上限嘛你有一些限制結果你就變相的用這款紅色它事實上是屬於極端值的部分啊你如果說極端值我跟委員報告一件事情如果要說外的你就說極端值不不不\n401463\t406745\t我們現在會統計 如果用機關加獎 也會行穩給那個機關我們私下來討論 如果檢測對這點你有問題 我們私下來討論 好不好好 謝謝那另外公務人員的這個出手潮來 工時過高 那過勞的問題 我相信這個已經有很多報導了\n423991\t443750\t那這20年來中央機關將去任務化、地方化、法人化及委外化的一個改造目標那許多人力都已經轉進了民營化的全國營企業或者是辦官方色彩非常高的研究機構公務人員的這個人數雖然感覺維持在法定範圍內但是非公務人員的\n445171\t454835\t對不起非公務員的政府職員人數卻繼續上升這背後的現象是人力短缺那你們的調查也顯示2023年\n457412\t477518\t行政院所屬機關的缺額是29.5%那也就是100人缺了29.5人深入的分析是未運用缺額率也就是不計算在正在申請調動等待國考分發的這個缺額數那中央是這樣地方尤其是那縣市政府呢是缺人\n477918\t498676\t但是六都是大家流動率過高的一個缺額這已經不是新聞了那麼2022年的數據看來公務人員離職數是2496人六都1558人那離職的總數佔了62.4%那麼除了部分人員被調往中央以外其他很重要的一個問題還是工作量過大\n499096\t514865\t跟剛才我們講的問題也有點接近所以相較於一般縣市六都的負擔也很大所以人力的短缺也導致工作職場的惡化所有的問題都連帶在一起所以我們這樣子的問題人員配置是否需要做一些調整\n516469\t533424\t我覺得委員講到一個重點就是會有所謂類似惡性循環的現象因為人進步的速度不夠快工作量沒有做減所以剛才委員的簡報裡面有提到棄任務法棄任務法事實上很重要\n534588\t556617\t一個棄任務的話 我們事實上在推兩個字啦 兩個減啦一個是減掉的減 另外一個是減化的減當這兩個字有辦法落實的話大家的工作的loading就不會那麼瘦了謝謝 林市長 我知道就你們行政上或者是機制上你們都希望減可是這個減背後 你會有一些很多的加的東西的代價好 這個請你們內部 就每一個單位\n559778\t574704\t的工作職司的差異性做一個處理跟討論而不是只是說我怎麼整天你們來做我們就真的減對你們來說是減但是對其他單位可能增加一些不是他們專業可以處理的東西請檢討一下好不好跟一些專業的單位來做一個討論接下來我要為錦霄夜間家層來請命\n581406\t599538\t那個為基層來做一個處理行政院近期核定6月1號起那警消移民跟這個空中勤務等機關在深夜12點到6點的時候駐外勤務者會知己每小時100元的深夜\n600840\t614215\t為勞性勤務津貼聽起來好像得贈好像有6.9萬人要受益但是這第一線人的辛勞其實我感覺到還反這個感覺到蠻心傷的基層的反應可以看到這個\n615796\t638010\t補貼其實也蠻沒有實質的意義那也顯示出制度上我們還是需要檢討那這個設計的制度呢其實在輪班的公務員形態及勤務的這個風險是不是有將圍牢這兩個字的這個定義好好做一個處理它是單純的形式條件而不是勞動價值的合理衡量許多基層來反映\n639392\t645603\tB超商大夜班的時薪還低你們要不要告訴我一下超商大夜班的時薪大概多少你們有了解嗎\n647866\t669444\t大葉班應該差不多兩百多塊兩百多塊嘛,你如果知道是兩百多塊,這就一百多塊嘛警消這一類的工作還有一些圍牢耶但是我的委員報告,他本身就有薪水喔,你那個是extra額外再給他的喔那是沒工喔,他那一點鐘兩百多塊,他就是跟我們捏那兩百多塊喔你跟我上次的報告說,你是怎麼算的\n673227\t693260\t這重點就是說,你在夜間,那些超商的時薪,你如果要這樣說,我們就來好好算出來,你說因為有薪水,要加班,危險跟加班費,你們覺得只要一百塊就夠了,低於超商,那你如果是這樣的概念,我們就來好好計算。\n694261\t699886\t其實要我幫你補充一下剛才說的那一點鐘加一班 它不是加班 它是正常班正常班我去輪候 晚上那段時間 晚上那段時間那報名要沒有那個危險性嗎不不不 我說 那空間有危險性我們會整理資料送給委員\n713820\t742679\t對啦 這就很細的所以本席這邊就跟你說是不是就這一些細節那你們可以去了解一下這些實際的狀況那有沒有相對不公平跟不公義的制度那最後我提醒像這個補貼性 對不起你這樣子的這個形式化有點形式化的東西讓機車人會陷入一種補貼性操作的邏輯不用是深夜來值班但是呢 如果沒有離開那個地方譬如說我們在櫃台不要說櫃台啦 警務所在值班\n743759\t760836\t蓋在半道戶外才叫做危牢沒有半道戶外就不是危牢這些定義是不是可以討論一下那補償性風險的制度會變成行政操作的一個漏洞那對津貼過低的這個問題其實沒有真正的解決那請你們回去好好的討論跟\n761957\t779217\t我們也會提供一些資料給委員我們就像那天在細節上做一個討論那彼此有一些共識最重要的就是這些專業單位最後我提醒一點齁剛才黃國昌委員講的公職人員調薪法制的話本席這邊也是今天其實本來要提醒我現在鄭重的提醒齁\n779798\t802333\t不要讓我們覺得家心都要看氣氛等訊息這次其實是某一些權益我們要看整個社會制度在社會的一個報酬率來講還有社會的一個整理你們必須要好好處理這個問題法治化的這個議題是非常重要在合理的指標下我們應該年年有一些調整\n803214\t811487\t不要看氣氛等消息 感覺有點太多的行政決策干預好不好 麻煩做一個處理好 謝謝 感謝主席\n","txt":"我們主席還有我們立院行政院同仁大家早安 大家好我們有請任市長請任市長委員長您好感謝您上禮拜會我們也就人事的問題有了一些討論在今天一開始我先就其實上禮拜有講過一些但是我針對這個比較憂心的現在公務人員超時過勞的問題\n那我們可以發現呢這其實很大的一個問題是在制度設計之下那我呼應一下剛才那個黃委員其實也談到好幾個法案其實它一個整體的制度結構會影響到很多所以今天本席要討論的幾項都跟這個有點關係\n好 那我在談剛才我們發現公務人員在制度的設計之下會被推向一個勞動跟報酬不太相當的處境甚至已經有點剝削的情形那過往社會對於公務體系常常都有這種穩定準時上下班的一個印象但是我覺得現在已經這種印象已經跟以前很不一樣了那就本席在行政單位的經驗那如果以勞工的方便勞工的一個概念來講事實上我們都不太合格\n好所以呢現在情況不同所以很多過勞的案件甚至也有死亡的悲劇那這不是一個個案而是我們可能要了解到它是一個制度性的壓榨機制正在悄然的蔓延\n人事總署有訂定一個加班費的管制要點表面上每天加班4個小時上限60小時已經過高但是很令人震驚的是有許多的例外條款形同開啟了一個無限制的加班大門就本席了解有的時候為了辦理專案加班上限會提升到6個小時每個月80小時\n那再進一步如果還要再符合急迫且人力難以調度的條件甚至可以連續三天每天加班至14小時那麼再加上行政院核准以後每三個月可達240小時也超過勞基法所設的每三個月不得超過138小時的這個紅線那請問這樣的制度安排是否仍然符合公務人員保障法的精神\n謝謝委員給我這個機會說明事實上我們有統計過中央跟地方所有公務人員在最近這三年的平均加班時數大概6.6到9.2個小時平均來講那剛才委員提到的那是屬於極端值我舉一個例子像上一年的三端值可能就會像以前我們在文化單位的那種極端值很不平均嘛對吧你們現在是平均值嘛對不對事實上它會有所謂的\nHigh ceiling跟那個Low ceiling那個尖峰跟離峰的問題那我剛才就是針對那個委員所提到的你那個極限值三個月加起來240小時這一種譬如像上一年的那一種山東额颱風你在高雄地區的很多的同仁事實上他為了要很快速的去處理這一些上後處理這種情況是可能發生不過這裡我有跟委員報告\n我們每一個月對 謝謝上次您來拜會的時候我們其實有就這個部分有做一些交流本席這邊要提醒的就是那現在母法僅有規定加班因給予補償但是沒有授權人事主管單位以行政命令的形式將工時擴張超過國際合理的一個勞動標準更遑論制度上還可以容許加班費上限僅有20小時但是這個是最重要的\n其餘以獎勵及考積來報酬這樣子的做法其實是在制度裡面將剝削的一個狀況合理化那這樣子安排會有點挑戰人口販運防治法所禁止的報酬顯不當且非自願性工作那這個可能會成為一個灰色地帶是不是\n人事長你應該做一些研議齁那我們都知道去年無性員工在100個小時的這個過勞之後呢那也犧牲了一個性命那法院也認為國家應該要負責任那這樣子的檢討我們是不是可以讓更多無性職員的事情不要在各機關再重演所以這是麻煩\n你們可以好好的演繹當工作時間毫無節制加班常態化也不給予合理的報酬公務體系裡面其實這個工作已經不是一個體面的工作有的時候會被忽視強迫的勞動場域所以這個悲劇發生之後我相信剛才黃委員這邊所講的應該做一個整體制度的討論我這裡跟委員報告一下\n我們就不要就個案了啦 這兩三年我們是從4.7.8.5通過之後我們每一個月都會針對少數機關 少數同仁他加班時數非常不正常而且我們有花文請他說明為什麼要加班這麼久那本席這邊有提醒就是說不要忘記這個獎勵及考積來取代的這個部分是\n我覺得你們應該好好再處理我同意委員的看法這個是一個重點那最後本席這邊再補充一下因為我要繼續下去下面一個議題整個制度價值的重新校準是不是可以從本席剛才所講的這個內容含義上你們去做一個處理好嗎\n事實上我覺得現在加班很重要的問題是來自於假如可以從業務流程簡化有些事情更不要這樣做因為我們管制性的東西太多假如管制性的東西我如果要討論業務流程的簡化其實我們還要花時間再去處理業務流程怎麼簡化其實我們要花時間學所以本席講的就是說剛才那種替代性的變成獎勵報酬來替代這個部分請你們了解跟處理我跟委員報告啦\n這一個我們也有在控制因為我覺得你有加班一定要加班會給你那個獎勵的事實上是屬於你有上限嘛你有一些限制結果你就變相的用這款紅色它事實上是屬於極端值的部分啊你如果說極端值我跟委員報告一件事情如果要說外的你就說極端值不不不\n我們現在會統計 如果用機關加獎 也會行穩給那個機關我們私下來討論 如果檢測對這點你有問題 我們私下來討論 好不好好 謝謝那另外公務人員的這個出手潮來 工時過高 那過勞的問題 我相信這個已經有很多報導了\n那這20年來中央機關將去任務化、地方化、法人化及委外化的一個改造目標那許多人力都已經轉進了民營化的全國營企業或者是辦官方色彩非常高的研究機構公務人員的這個人數雖然感覺維持在法定範圍內但是非公務人員的\n對不起非公務員的政府職員人數卻繼續上升這背後的現象是人力短缺那你們的調查也顯示2023年\n行政院所屬機關的缺額是29.5%那也就是100人缺了29.5人深入的分析是未運用缺額率也就是不計算在正在申請調動等待國考分發的這個缺額數那中央是這樣地方尤其是那縣市政府呢是缺人\n但是六都是大家流動率過高的一個缺額這已經不是新聞了那麼2022年的數據看來公務人員離職數是2496人六都1558人那離職的總數佔了62.4%那麼除了部分人員被調往中央以外其他很重要的一個問題還是工作量過大\n跟剛才我們講的問題也有點接近所以相較於一般縣市六都的負擔也很大所以人力的短缺也導致工作職場的惡化所有的問題都連帶在一起所以我們這樣子的問題人員配置是否需要做一些調整\n我覺得委員講到一個重點就是會有所謂類似惡性循環的現象因為人進步的速度不夠快工作量沒有做減所以剛才委員的簡報裡面有提到棄任務法棄任務法事實上很重要\n一個棄任務的話 我們事實上在推兩個字啦 兩個減啦一個是減掉的減 另外一個是減化的減當這兩個字有辦法落實的話大家的工作的loading就不會那麼瘦了謝謝 林市長 我知道就你們行政上或者是機制上你們都希望減可是這個減背後 你會有一些很多的加的東西的代價好 這個請你們內部 就每一個單位\n的工作職司的差異性做一個處理跟討論而不是只是說我怎麼整天你們來做我們就真的減對你們來說是減但是對其他單位可能增加一些不是他們專業可以處理的東西請檢討一下好不好跟一些專業的單位來做一個討論接下來我要為錦霄夜間家層來請命\n那個為基層來做一個處理行政院近期核定6月1號起那警消移民跟這個空中勤務等機關在深夜12點到6點的時候駐外勤務者會知己每小時100元的深夜\n為勞性勤務津貼聽起來好像得贈好像有6.9萬人要受益但是這第一線人的辛勞其實我感覺到還反這個感覺到蠻心傷的基層的反應可以看到這個\n補貼其實也蠻沒有實質的意義那也顯示出制度上我們還是需要檢討那這個設計的制度呢其實在輪班的公務員形態及勤務的這個風險是不是有將圍牢這兩個字的這個定義好好做一個處理它是單純的形式條件而不是勞動價值的合理衡量許多基層來反映\nB超商大夜班的時薪還低你們要不要告訴我一下超商大夜班的時薪大概多少你們有了解嗎\n大葉班應該差不多兩百多塊兩百多塊嘛,你如果知道是兩百多塊,這就一百多塊嘛警消這一類的工作還有一些圍牢耶但是我的委員報告,他本身就有薪水喔,你那個是extra額外再給他的喔那是沒工喔,他那一點鐘兩百多塊,他就是跟我們捏那兩百多塊喔你跟我上次的報告說,你是怎麼算的\n這重點就是說,你在夜間,那些超商的時薪,你如果要這樣說,我們就來好好算出來,你說因為有薪水,要加班,危險跟加班費,你們覺得只要一百塊就夠了,低於超商,那你如果是這樣的概念,我們就來好好計算。\n其實要我幫你補充一下剛才說的那一點鐘加一班 它不是加班 它是正常班正常班我去輪候 晚上那段時間 晚上那段時間那報名要沒有那個危險性嗎不不不 我說 那空間有危險性我們會整理資料送給委員\n對啦 這就很細的所以本席這邊就跟你說是不是就這一些細節那你們可以去了解一下這些實際的狀況那有沒有相對不公平跟不公義的制度那最後我提醒像這個補貼性 對不起你這樣子的這個形式化有點形式化的東西讓機車人會陷入一種補貼性操作的邏輯不用是深夜來值班但是呢 如果沒有離開那個地方譬如說我們在櫃台不要說櫃台啦 警務所在值班\n蓋在半道戶外才叫做危牢沒有半道戶外就不是危牢這些定義是不是可以討論一下那補償性風險的制度會變成行政操作的一個漏洞那對津貼過低的這個問題其實沒有真正的解決那請你們回去好好的討論跟\n我們也會提供一些資料給委員我們就像那天在細節上做一個討論那彼此有一些共識最重要的就是這些專業單位最後我提醒一點齁剛才黃國昌委員講的公職人員調薪法制的話本席這邊也是今天其實本來要提醒我現在鄭重的提醒齁\n不要讓我們覺得家心都要看氣氛等訊息這次其實是某一些權益我們要看整個社會制度在社會的一個報酬率來講還有社會的一個整理你們必須要好好處理這個問題法治化的這個議題是非常重要在合理的指標下我們應該年年有一些調整\n不要看氣氛等消息 感覺有點太多的行政決策干預好不好 麻煩做一個處理好 謝謝 感謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.337 --> 00:16.859\n我們主席還有我們立院行政院同仁大家早安大家好我們有請任市長請任市長委員長您好感謝您上禮拜會我們也就人事的問題有了一些討論在今天一開始我先就其實上禮拜有講過一些但是我針對這個比較憂心的現在公務人員超時過勞的問題\n\n00:36.385 --> 00:48.850\n那我們可以發現呢這其實很大的一個問題是在制度設計之下那我呼應一下剛才那個黃委員其實也談到好幾個法案其實它一個整體的制度結構會影響到很多所以今天本席要討論的幾項都跟這個有點關係\n\n00:52.071 --> 01:19.588\n好那我在談剛才我們發現公務人員在制度的設計之下會被推向一個勞動跟報酬不太相當的處境甚至已經有點剝削的情形那過往社會對於公務體系常常都有這種穩定準時上下班的一個印象但是我覺得現在已經這種印象已經跟以前很不一樣了那就本席在行政單位的經驗那如果以勞工的方便勞工的一個概念來講事實上我們都不太合格\n\n01:20.188 --> 01:33.671\n好所以呢現在情況不同所以很多過勞的案件甚至也有死亡的悲劇那這不是一個個案而是我們可能要了解到它是一個制度性的壓榨機制正在悄然的蔓延\n\n01:35.284 --> 01:56.415\n人事總署有訂定一個加班費的管制要點表面上每天加班4個小時上限60小時已經過高但是很令人震驚的是有許多的例外條款形同開啟了一個無限制的加班大門就本席了解有的時候為了辦理專案加班上限會提升到6個小時每個月80小時\n\n01:58.576 --> 02:28.139\n那再進一步如果還要再符合急迫且人力難以調度的條件甚至可以連續三天每天加班至14小時那麼再加上行政院核准以後每三個月可達240小時也超過勞基法所設的每三個月不得超過138小時的這個紅線那請問這樣的制度安排是否仍然符合公務人員保障法的精神\n\n02:29.820 --> 02:55.721\n謝謝委員給我這個機會說明事實上我們有統計過中央跟地方所有公務人員在最近這三年的平均加班時數大概6.6到9.2個小時平均來講那剛才委員提到的那是屬於極端值我舉一個例子像上一年的三端值可能就會像以前我們在文化單位的那種極端值很不平均嘛對吧你們現在是平均值嘛對不對事實上它會有所謂的\n\n02:57.282 --> 03:24.546\nHighceiling跟那個Lowceiling那個尖峰跟離峰的問題那我剛才就是針對那個委員所提到的你那個極限值三個月加起來240小時這一種譬如像上一年的那一種山東额颱風你在高雄地區的很多的同仁事實上他為了要很快速的去處理這一些上後處理這種情況是可能發生不過這裡我有跟委員報告\n\n03:25.186 --> 03:51.881\n我們每一個月對謝謝上次您來拜會的時候我們其實有就這個部分有做一些交流本席這邊要提醒的就是那現在母法僅有規定加班因給予補償但是沒有授權人事主管單位以行政命令的形式將工時擴張超過國際合理的一個勞動標準更遑論制度上還可以容許加班費上限僅有20小時但是這個是最重要的\n\n03:52.381 --> 04:13.051\n其餘以獎勵及考積來報酬這樣子的做法其實是在制度裡面將剝削的一個狀況合理化那這樣子安排會有點挑戰人口販運防治法所禁止的報酬顯不當且非自願性工作那這個可能會成為一個灰色地帶是不是\n\n04:14.111 --> 04:35.797\n人事長你應該做一些研議齁那我們都知道去年無性員工在100個小時的這個過勞之後呢那也犧牲了一個性命那法院也認為國家應該要負責任那這樣子的檢討我們是不是可以讓更多無性職員的事情不要在各機關再重演所以這是麻煩\n\n04:36.957 --> 05:02.506\n你們可以好好的演繹當工作時間毫無節制加班常態化也不給予合理的報酬公務體系裡面其實這個工作已經不是一個體面的工作有的時候會被忽視強迫的勞動場域所以這個悲劇發生之後我相信剛才黃委員這邊所講的應該做一個整體制度的討論我這裡跟委員報告一下\n\n05:03.226 --> 05:09.610\n我們就不要就個案了啦這兩三年我們是從4.7.8.5通過之後我們每一個月都會針對少數機關少數同仁他加班時數非常不正常而且我們有花文請他說明為什麼要加班這麼久那本席這邊有提醒就是說不要忘記這個獎勵及考積來取代的這個部分是\n\n05:30.104 --> 05:49.270\n我覺得你們應該好好再處理我同意委員的看法這個是一個重點那最後本席這邊再補充一下因為我要繼續下去下面一個議題整個制度價值的重新校準是不是可以從本席剛才所講的這個內容含義上你們去做一個處理好嗎\n\n05:50.546 --> 06:16.953\n事實上我覺得現在加班很重要的問題是來自於假如可以從業務流程簡化有些事情更不要這樣做因為我們管制性的東西太多假如管制性的東西我如果要討論業務流程的簡化其實我們還要花時間再去處理業務流程怎麼簡化其實我們要花時間學所以本席講的就是說剛才那種替代性的變成獎勵報酬來替代這個部分請你們了解跟處理我跟委員報告啦\n\n06:19.734 --> 06:37.602\n這一個我們也有在控制因為我覺得你有加班一定要加班會給你那個獎勵的事實上是屬於你有上限嘛你有一些限制結果你就變相的用這款紅色它事實上是屬於極端值的部分啊你如果說極端值我跟委員報告一件事情如果要說外的你就說極端值不不不\n\n06:41.463 --> 06:46.745\n我們現在會統計如果用機關加獎也會行穩給那個機關我們私下來討論如果檢測對這點你有問題我們私下來討論好不好好謝謝那另外公務人員的這個出手潮來工時過高那過勞的問題我相信這個已經有很多報導了\n\n07:03.991 --> 07:23.750\n那這20年來中央機關將去任務化、地方化、法人化及委外化的一個改造目標那許多人力都已經轉進了民營化的全國營企業或者是辦官方色彩非常高的研究機構公務人員的這個人數雖然感覺維持在法定範圍內但是非公務人員的\n\n07:25.171 --> 07:34.835\n對不起非公務員的政府職員人數卻繼續上升這背後的現象是人力短缺那你們的調查也顯示2023年\n\n07:37.412 --> 07:57.518\n行政院所屬機關的缺額是29.5%那也就是100人缺了29.5人深入的分析是未運用缺額率也就是不計算在正在申請調動等待國考分發的這個缺額數那中央是這樣地方尤其是那縣市政府呢是缺人\n\n07:57.918 --> 08:18.676\n但是六都是大家流動率過高的一個缺額這已經不是新聞了那麼2022年的數據看來公務人員離職數是2496人六都1558人那離職的總數佔了62.4%那麼除了部分人員被調往中央以外其他很重要的一個問題還是工作量過大\n\n08:19.096 --> 08:34.865\n跟剛才我們講的問題也有點接近所以相較於一般縣市六都的負擔也很大所以人力的短缺也導致工作職場的惡化所有的問題都連帶在一起所以我們這樣子的問題人員配置是否需要做一些調整\n\n08:36.469 --> 08:53.424\n我覺得委員講到一個重點就是會有所謂類似惡性循環的現象因為人進步的速度不夠快工作量沒有做減所以剛才委員的簡報裡面有提到棄任務法棄任務法事實上很重要\n\n08:54.588 --> 09:16.617\n一個棄任務的話我們事實上在推兩個字啦兩個減啦一個是減掉的減另外一個是減化的減當這兩個字有辦法落實的話大家的工作的loading就不會那麼瘦了謝謝林市長我知道就你們行政上或者是機制上你們都希望減可是這個減背後你會有一些很多的加的東西的代價好這個請你們內部就每一個單位\n\n09:19.778 --> 09:34.704\n的工作職司的差異性做一個處理跟討論而不是只是說我怎麼整天你們來做我們就真的減對你們來說是減但是對其他單位可能增加一些不是他們專業可以處理的東西請檢討一下好不好跟一些專業的單位來做一個討論接下來我要為錦霄夜間家層來請命\n\n09:41.406 --> 09:59.538\n那個為基層來做一個處理行政院近期核定6月1號起那警消移民跟這個空中勤務等機關在深夜12點到6點的時候駐外勤務者會知己每小時100元的深夜\n\n10:00.840 --> 10:14.215\n為勞性勤務津貼聽起來好像得贈好像有6.9萬人要受益但是這第一線人的辛勞其實我感覺到還反這個感覺到蠻心傷的基層的反應可以看到這個\n\n10:15.796 --> 10:38.010\n補貼其實也蠻沒有實質的意義那也顯示出制度上我們還是需要檢討那這個設計的制度呢其實在輪班的公務員形態及勤務的這個風險是不是有將圍牢這兩個字的這個定義好好做一個處理它是單純的形式條件而不是勞動價值的合理衡量許多基層來反映\n\n10:39.392 --> 10:45.603\nB超商大夜班的時薪還低你們要不要告訴我一下超商大夜班的時薪大概多少你們有了解嗎\n\n10:47.866 --> 11:09.444\n大葉班應該差不多兩百多塊兩百多塊嘛,你如果知道是兩百多塊,這就一百多塊嘛警消這一類的工作還有一些圍牢耶但是我的委員報告,他本身就有薪水喔,你那個是extra額外再給他的喔那是沒工喔,他那一點鐘兩百多塊,他就是跟我們捏那兩百多塊喔你跟我上次的報告說,你是怎麼算的\n\n11:13.227 --> 11:33.260\n這重點就是說,你在夜間,那些超商的時薪,你如果要這樣說,我們就來好好算出來,你說因為有薪水,要加班,危險跟加班費,你們覺得只要一百塊就夠了,低於超商,那你如果是這樣的概念,我們就來好好計算。\n\n11:34.261 --> 11:39.886\n其實要我幫你補充一下剛才說的那一點鐘加一班它不是加班它是正常班正常班我去輪候晚上那段時間晚上那段時間那報名要沒有那個危險性嗎不不不我說那空間有危險性我們會整理資料送給委員\n\n11:53.820 --> 12:22.679\n對啦這就很細的所以本席這邊就跟你說是不是就這一些細節那你們可以去了解一下這些實際的狀況那有沒有相對不公平跟不公義的制度那最後我提醒像這個補貼性對不起你這樣子的這個形式化有點形式化的東西讓機車人會陷入一種補貼性操作的邏輯不用是深夜來值班但是呢如果沒有離開那個地方譬如說我們在櫃台不要說櫃台啦警務所在值班\n\n12:23.759 --> 12:40.836\n蓋在半道戶外才叫做危牢沒有半道戶外就不是危牢這些定義是不是可以討論一下那補償性風險的制度會變成行政操作的一個漏洞那對津貼過低的這個問題其實沒有真正的解決那請你們回去好好的討論跟\n\n12:41.957 --> 12:59.217\n我們也會提供一些資料給委員我們就像那天在細節上做一個討論那彼此有一些共識最重要的就是這些專業單位最後我提醒一點齁剛才黃國昌委員講的公職人員調薪法制的話本席這邊也是今天其實本來要提醒我現在鄭重的提醒齁\n\n12:59.798 --> 13:22.333\n不要讓我們覺得家心都要看氣氛等訊息這次其實是某一些權益我們要看整個社會制度在社會的一個報酬率來講還有社會的一個整理你們必須要好好處理這個問題法治化的這個議題是非常重要在合理的指標下我們應該年年有一些調整\n\n13:23.214 --> 13:31.487\n不要看氣氛等消息感覺有點太多的行政決策干預好不好麻煩做一個處理好謝謝感謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.337,"end":16.859,"text":"我們主席還有我們立院行政院同仁大家早安 大家好我們有請任市長請任市長委員長您好感謝您上禮拜會我們也就人事的問題有了一些討論在今天一開始我先就其實上禮拜有講過一些但是我針對這個比較憂心的現在公務人員超時過勞的問題"},{"start":36.385,"end":48.85,"text":"那我們可以發現呢這其實很大的一個問題是在制度設計之下那我呼應一下剛才那個黃委員其實也談到好幾個法案其實它一個整體的制度結構會影響到很多所以今天本席要討論的幾項都跟這個有點關係"},{"start":52.071,"end":79.588,"text":"好 那我在談剛才我們發現公務人員在制度的設計之下會被推向一個勞動跟報酬不太相當的處境甚至已經有點剝削的情形那過往社會對於公務體系常常都有這種穩定準時上下班的一個印象但是我覺得現在已經這種印象已經跟以前很不一樣了那就本席在行政單位的經驗那如果以勞工的方便勞工的一個概念來講事實上我們都不太合格"},{"start":80.188,"end":93.671,"text":"好所以呢現在情況不同所以很多過勞的案件甚至也有死亡的悲劇那這不是一個個案而是我們可能要了解到它是一個制度性的壓榨機制正在悄然的蔓延"},{"start":95.284,"end":116.415,"text":"人事總署有訂定一個加班費的管制要點表面上每天加班4個小時上限60小時已經過高但是很令人震驚的是有許多的例外條款形同開啟了一個無限制的加班大門就本席了解有的時候為了辦理專案加班上限會提升到6個小時每個月80小時"},{"start":118.576,"end":148.139,"text":"那再進一步如果還要再符合急迫且人力難以調度的條件甚至可以連續三天每天加班至14小時那麼再加上行政院核准以後每三個月可達240小時也超過勞基法所設的每三個月不得超過138小時的這個紅線那請問這樣的制度安排是否仍然符合公務人員保障法的精神"},{"start":149.82,"end":175.721,"text":"謝謝委員給我這個機會說明事實上我們有統計過中央跟地方所有公務人員在最近這三年的平均加班時數大概6.6到9.2個小時平均來講那剛才委員提到的那是屬於極端值我舉一個例子像上一年的三端值可能就會像以前我們在文化單位的那種極端值很不平均嘛對吧你們現在是平均值嘛對不對事實上它會有所謂的"},{"start":177.282,"end":204.546,"text":"High ceiling跟那個Low ceiling那個尖峰跟離峰的問題那我剛才就是針對那個委員所提到的你那個極限值三個月加起來240小時這一種譬如像上一年的那一種山東额颱風你在高雄地區的很多的同仁事實上他為了要很快速的去處理這一些上後處理這種情況是可能發生不過這裡我有跟委員報告"},{"start":205.186,"end":231.881,"text":"我們每一個月對 謝謝上次您來拜會的時候我們其實有就這個部分有做一些交流本席這邊要提醒的就是那現在母法僅有規定加班因給予補償但是沒有授權人事主管單位以行政命令的形式將工時擴張超過國際合理的一個勞動標準更遑論制度上還可以容許加班費上限僅有20小時但是這個是最重要的"},{"start":232.381,"end":253.051,"text":"其餘以獎勵及考積來報酬這樣子的做法其實是在制度裡面將剝削的一個狀況合理化那這樣子安排會有點挑戰人口販運防治法所禁止的報酬顯不當且非自願性工作那這個可能會成為一個灰色地帶是不是"},{"start":254.111,"end":275.797,"text":"人事長你應該做一些研議齁那我們都知道去年無性員工在100個小時的這個過勞之後呢那也犧牲了一個性命那法院也認為國家應該要負責任那這樣子的檢討我們是不是可以讓更多無性職員的事情不要在各機關再重演所以這是麻煩"},{"start":276.957,"end":302.506,"text":"你們可以好好的演繹當工作時間毫無節制加班常態化也不給予合理的報酬公務體系裡面其實這個工作已經不是一個體面的工作有的時候會被忽視強迫的勞動場域所以這個悲劇發生之後我相信剛才黃委員這邊所講的應該做一個整體制度的討論我這裡跟委員報告一下"},{"start":303.226,"end":309.61,"text":"我們就不要就個案了啦 這兩三年我們是從4.7.8.5通過之後我們每一個月都會針對少數機關 少數同仁他加班時數非常不正常而且我們有花文請他說明為什麼要加班這麼久那本席這邊有提醒就是說不要忘記這個獎勵及考積來取代的這個部分是"},{"start":330.104,"end":349.27,"text":"我覺得你們應該好好再處理我同意委員的看法這個是一個重點那最後本席這邊再補充一下因為我要繼續下去下面一個議題整個制度價值的重新校準是不是可以從本席剛才所講的這個內容含義上你們去做一個處理好嗎"},{"start":350.546,"end":376.953,"text":"事實上我覺得現在加班很重要的問題是來自於假如可以從業務流程簡化有些事情更不要這樣做因為我們管制性的東西太多假如管制性的東西我如果要討論業務流程的簡化其實我們還要花時間再去處理業務流程怎麼簡化其實我們要花時間學所以本席講的就是說剛才那種替代性的變成獎勵報酬來替代這個部分請你們了解跟處理我跟委員報告啦"},{"start":379.734,"end":397.602,"text":"這一個我們也有在控制因為我覺得你有加班一定要加班會給你那個獎勵的事實上是屬於你有上限嘛你有一些限制結果你就變相的用這款紅色它事實上是屬於極端值的部分啊你如果說極端值我跟委員報告一件事情如果要說外的你就說極端值不不不"},{"start":401.463,"end":406.745,"text":"我們現在會統計 如果用機關加獎 也會行穩給那個機關我們私下來討論 如果檢測對這點你有問題 我們私下來討論 好不好好 謝謝那另外公務人員的這個出手潮來 工時過高 那過勞的問題 我相信這個已經有很多報導了"},{"start":423.991,"end":443.75,"text":"那這20年來中央機關將去任務化、地方化、法人化及委外化的一個改造目標那許多人力都已經轉進了民營化的全國營企業或者是辦官方色彩非常高的研究機構公務人員的這個人數雖然感覺維持在法定範圍內但是非公務人員的"},{"start":445.171,"end":454.835,"text":"對不起非公務員的政府職員人數卻繼續上升這背後的現象是人力短缺那你們的調查也顯示2023年"},{"start":457.412,"end":477.518,"text":"行政院所屬機關的缺額是29.5%那也就是100人缺了29.5人深入的分析是未運用缺額率也就是不計算在正在申請調動等待國考分發的這個缺額數那中央是這樣地方尤其是那縣市政府呢是缺人"},{"start":477.918,"end":498.676,"text":"但是六都是大家流動率過高的一個缺額這已經不是新聞了那麼2022年的數據看來公務人員離職數是2496人六都1558人那離職的總數佔了62.4%那麼除了部分人員被調往中央以外其他很重要的一個問題還是工作量過大"},{"start":499.096,"end":514.865,"text":"跟剛才我們講的問題也有點接近所以相較於一般縣市六都的負擔也很大所以人力的短缺也導致工作職場的惡化所有的問題都連帶在一起所以我們這樣子的問題人員配置是否需要做一些調整"},{"start":516.469,"end":533.424,"text":"我覺得委員講到一個重點就是會有所謂類似惡性循環的現象因為人進步的速度不夠快工作量沒有做減所以剛才委員的簡報裡面有提到棄任務法棄任務法事實上很重要"},{"start":534.588,"end":556.617,"text":"一個棄任務的話 我們事實上在推兩個字啦 兩個減啦一個是減掉的減 另外一個是減化的減當這兩個字有辦法落實的話大家的工作的loading就不會那麼瘦了謝謝 林市長 我知道就你們行政上或者是機制上你們都希望減可是這個減背後 你會有一些很多的加的東西的代價好 這個請你們內部 就每一個單位"},{"start":559.778,"end":574.704,"text":"的工作職司的差異性做一個處理跟討論而不是只是說我怎麼整天你們來做我們就真的減對你們來說是減但是對其他單位可能增加一些不是他們專業可以處理的東西請檢討一下好不好跟一些專業的單位來做一個討論接下來我要為錦霄夜間家層來請命"},{"start":581.406,"end":599.538,"text":"那個為基層來做一個處理行政院近期核定6月1號起那警消移民跟這個空中勤務等機關在深夜12點到6點的時候駐外勤務者會知己每小時100元的深夜"},{"start":600.84,"end":614.215,"text":"為勞性勤務津貼聽起來好像得贈好像有6.9萬人要受益但是這第一線人的辛勞其實我感覺到還反這個感覺到蠻心傷的基層的反應可以看到這個"},{"start":615.796,"end":638.01,"text":"補貼其實也蠻沒有實質的意義那也顯示出制度上我們還是需要檢討那這個設計的制度呢其實在輪班的公務員形態及勤務的這個風險是不是有將圍牢這兩個字的這個定義好好做一個處理它是單純的形式條件而不是勞動價值的合理衡量許多基層來反映"},{"start":639.392,"end":645.603,"text":"B超商大夜班的時薪還低你們要不要告訴我一下超商大夜班的時薪大概多少你們有了解嗎"},{"start":647.866,"end":669.444,"text":"大葉班應該差不多兩百多塊兩百多塊嘛,你如果知道是兩百多塊,這就一百多塊嘛警消這一類的工作還有一些圍牢耶但是我的委員報告,他本身就有薪水喔,你那個是extra額外再給他的喔那是沒工喔,他那一點鐘兩百多塊,他就是跟我們捏那兩百多塊喔你跟我上次的報告說,你是怎麼算的"},{"start":673.227,"end":693.26,"text":"這重點就是說,你在夜間,那些超商的時薪,你如果要這樣說,我們就來好好算出來,你說因為有薪水,要加班,危險跟加班費,你們覺得只要一百塊就夠了,低於超商,那你如果是這樣的概念,我們就來好好計算。"},{"start":694.261,"end":699.886,"text":"其實要我幫你補充一下剛才說的那一點鐘加一班 它不是加班 它是正常班正常班我去輪候 晚上那段時間 晚上那段時間那報名要沒有那個危險性嗎不不不 我說 那空間有危險性我們會整理資料送給委員"},{"start":713.82,"end":742.679,"text":"對啦 這就很細的所以本席這邊就跟你說是不是就這一些細節那你們可以去了解一下這些實際的狀況那有沒有相對不公平跟不公義的制度那最後我提醒像這個補貼性 對不起你這樣子的這個形式化有點形式化的東西讓機車人會陷入一種補貼性操作的邏輯不用是深夜來值班但是呢 如果沒有離開那個地方譬如說我們在櫃台不要說櫃台啦 警務所在值班"},{"start":743.759,"end":760.836,"text":"蓋在半道戶外才叫做危牢沒有半道戶外就不是危牢這些定義是不是可以討論一下那補償性風險的制度會變成行政操作的一個漏洞那對津貼過低的這個問題其實沒有真正的解決那請你們回去好好的討論跟"},{"start":761.957,"end":779.217,"text":"我們也會提供一些資料給委員我們就像那天在細節上做一個討論那彼此有一些共識最重要的就是這些專業單位最後我提醒一點齁剛才黃國昌委員講的公職人員調薪法制的話本席這邊也是今天其實本來要提醒我現在鄭重的提醒齁"},{"start":779.798,"end":802.333,"text":"不要讓我們覺得家心都要看氣氛等訊息這次其實是某一些權益我們要看整個社會制度在社會的一個報酬率來講還有社會的一個整理你們必須要好好處理這個問題法治化的這個議題是非常重要在合理的指標下我們應該年年有一些調整"},{"start":803.214,"end":811.487,"text":"不要看氣氛等消息 感覺有點太多的行政決策干預好不好 麻煩做一個處理好 謝謝 感謝主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":194,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（9時20分）主席、立院及行政院同仁，大家早安、大家好。有請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["林委員倩綺：您好。感謝您上個禮拜來拜會，我們也就人事的問題有了一些討論，今天一開始我先就……其實上禮拜有講過一些，但是我針對現在比較憂心的公務人員超時過勞的問題。我們可以發現其實很大的一個問題是在制度設計之下，我呼應一下剛才黃委員也談到好幾個法案，其實一個整體的制度結構會影響到很多，所以今天本席要討論的幾項都跟這個有點關係。","剛才提到我們發現公務人員在制度的設計之下，會被推向勞動跟報酬不太相當的處境，甚至已經有點剝削的情形。過往社會對於公務體系常常都有穩定、準時上下班的印象，但是我覺得現在這種印象已經跟以前很不一樣了，就本席在行政單位的經驗，如果以勞工的概念來講，事實上我們都不太合格。現在情況不同，所以有很多過勞的案件，甚至也有死亡的悲劇，這不是一個個案，而是我們可能要了解到，這是一個制度性的壓榨機制正在悄然蔓延。","人事總處有訂定一個加班費管制要點，表面上每天加班4個小時、上限60小時已經過高，但很令人震驚的是，有許多的例外條款，形同開啟了一個無限制的加班大門。就本席了解，有的時候為了辦理專案，加班上限會提升到6小時、每個月80小時；再進一步，如果再符合急迫且人力難以調度的條件，甚至可以連續3天每天加班至14小時；再加上行政院核准以後，每3個月可達240小時，也超過勞基法所設的每3個月不得超過138小時的紅線。請問這樣的制度安排是否仍然符合公務人員保障法的精神？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員給我這個機會說明，事實上我們有統計過，中央跟地方所有公務人員在最近這3年的平均加班時數大概是6.6到9.2個小時。剛才委員提到的屬於極端值，我舉一個例子，像上一年的山陀兒颱風……"],["林委員倩綺：極端值可能就會像我以前在文化單位的那種極端值，很不平均，對吧？你們現在是平均值嘛，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：事實上它會有所謂的high season跟low season、尖峰跟離峰的問題，針對委員所提到的，極限值3個月加起來240小時這一種，譬如像上一年的山陀兒颱風，在高雄地區很多同仁為了要很快速地善後處理，這種情況是可能發生，不過這裡我有跟委員報告，我們每一個月……"],["林委員倩綺：對！謝謝，上次您來拜會的時候，我們其實有就這個部分做一些交流。本席這邊要提醒的就是，現在母法僅有規定加班應給予補償，但是沒有授權人事主管單位以行政命令的形式將工時擴張超過國際合理的勞動標準，更遑論制度上還可以容許加班費上限僅有20小時，但最重要的是，其餘以獎勵及考績來報酬！這樣子的作法其實是在制度裡面將剝削的狀況合理化，這樣子的安排會有點挑戰人口販運防制法所禁止的報酬顯不當且非自願性工作，這個可能會成為一個灰色地帶，是不是？人事長應該做一些研議。","我們都知道去年吳姓員工在100個小時的過勞之後犧牲了性命，法院也認為國家應該要負責任，這樣子的檢討是不是可以讓更多吳姓職員的事情不要在各機關重演？所以麻煩你們好好地研議！當工作時間毫無節制、加班常態化、也不給予合理的報酬，其實公務體系這個工作已經不是一個體面的工作，有的時候是會被忽視、強迫的勞動場域。所以這個悲劇發生之後，我認同剛才黃委員這邊所講的，應該做一個整體制度的討論，人事長？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我這裡跟委員報告一下……"],["林委員倩綺：我們就不要就個案了啦，我們私下拜會的時候有討論過了。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這兩、三年我們從釋字第785號通過之後，我們每一個月都會針對少數機關、少數同仁加班時數非常不正常……"],["林委員倩綺：是，你有跟我講說，你們有在監測，我相信這個部分你們有在做了。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：而且我們有發文請他說明為什麼要加班那麼久。"],["林委員倩綺：是！本席這邊的提醒就是，不要忘記關於獎勵及考績來取代的部分，我覺得你們應該要好好再處理。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我同意委員的看法。"],["林委員倩綺：是的，這是一個重點。","最後，本席這邊再補充一下，因為我要繼續下面一個議題，整個制度價值的重新校準是不是可以從本席剛才所講的內容、含意上，你們去做一個處理，好嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得現在加班很重要的問題是來自於，假如可以從業務流程簡化，有些事情根本不要再做，因為我們管制性的東西太多，假如管制性的東西降低……"],["林委員倩綺：如果要討論業務流程簡化，其實我們還要花時間再去處理業務流程怎麼簡化，我們要花時間學，所以本席講的就是，剛才那種替代性的、變成獎勵報酬來替代的這個部分請你們了解跟處理，好嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，這一個我們也有在管制……"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝人事長，我們接下去下面一個議題，好嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得如果有加班一定要給加班費，那個獎勵事實上是屬於……"],["林委員倩綺：你有上限嘛、你有一些限制，結果你就變相用這種方式……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：事實上這是屬於極端值的部分，我跟委員報告一件事情……"],["林委員倩綺：你都說極端值，要選好的時候，你就說平均值；如果要說差的，你就說極端值！拜託，檢討一下！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不！我跟你說，我們現在會統計……"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝。我們現在……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：如果用記功嘉獎的部分，我們也會行文給那個機關，為什麼……"],["林委員倩綺：不然我們再私下來討論，如果你針對這點有問題的話，我們私下來討論，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：另外，關於公務人員的出走潮，包含工時過高、過勞的問題，我相信這個已經有很多報導了，這20年來，中央機關將去任務化、地方化、法人化及委外化作為改造目標，許多人力都已經轉進了民營化的前國營企業或者是半官方色彩非常高的研究機構，公務人員的人數雖然感覺維持在法定範圍內，但是非公務員的政府職員人數卻繼續上升，這背後的現象是人力短缺。你們的調查也顯示，2023年行政院所屬機關的缺額是29.5%，也就是100人缺了29.5人，深入的分析是未運用缺額率，也就是不計算正在申請調動、等待國考分發的缺額數。","中央是這樣、地方尤其是，縣市政府缺人，而六都是流動率過高的缺額，這已經不是新聞了。依2022年的數據看來，公務人員離職數是2,496人，六都1,558人，離職的總數占了62.4%。除了部分人員被調往中央以外，其他很重要的一個問題還是工作量過大，跟剛才我們講的問題也有點接近。相較於一般縣市，六都的負擔也很大，所以人力短缺也導致工作職場的惡化，所有的問題都連帶在一起，針對這樣子的問題，人員配置是否需要做一些調整？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得委員講到一個重點，就是會有類似惡性循環的現象，因為人進補的速度不夠快，工作量沒有減少，所以剛才委員的簡報裡面有提到去任務化，去任務化很重要，關於去任務化我們事實上在推兩個字：兩個「ㄐ一ㄢˇ」，一個是減掉的減，另外一個是簡化的簡，當這兩個字有辦法落實的話，大家的工作loading就不會那麼重。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝，人事長，我知道就你們行政上或者是機制上都希望減/簡，可是這個減/簡的背後會有很多加的代價，請你們內部就每一個單位工作職司的差異性，做一個處理跟討論，而不是只是說我這樣規定，你們就這樣做，我們就真的減/簡，對你們來說是減/簡，但是對其他單位可能增加了一些不是他們專業可以處理的東西，請檢討一下，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["林委員倩綺：跟一些專業的單位來做討論。","接下來我要為警消夜間加成來請命，為基層來做處理，行政院近期核定從6月1號起，警消、移民跟空中勤務等機關，在深夜12點到6點的時候，駐外勤執行勤務者，會支給每小時100元的深夜危勞性勤務津貼，聽起來好像是德政，好像有6.9萬人要受益，但是這第一線人的辛勞，其實我感覺還滿心傷的，可以看到基層的反映認為這個補貼其實也滿沒有實質的意義，也顯示出制度上我們還是需要檢討。這個設計的制度其實在輪班的公務人員型態及勤務的風險，是不是有將「危勞」這兩個字的定義好好做一個處理？它是單純的形式條件，而不是勞動價值的合理衡量。許多基層反映，100元比超商大夜班的時薪還低，你們要不要告訴我一下超商大夜班的時薪大概多少，你們有了解嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：大夜班應該差不多是兩百多元吧。"],["林委員倩綺：知道是多少錢嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：應該兩百多元吧。"],["林委員倩綺：你如果知道是兩百多元，至少比100元還多。警消這一類的工作還有一些危勞……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：但是我跟委員報告，他本身就有薪水，那是額外再給他的，那是不同的，那一小時兩百多元，他就是只領那兩百多元。"],["林委員倩綺：你送一個報告告訴我你們是怎麼算的，重點是夜間超商的時薪……你如果要這樣說，我們就來好好算出來，你說因為他有薪水，要加班……危險跟加班費，你們覺得只要100塊就夠了，低於超商，你如果是這樣的概念，我們就來好好計算，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員，我跟你補充一下，剛剛說1小時加一班，他那不是加班，那是正常班，他剛好去輪到的晚上那段時間、半夜那段時間，所以1個小時100元……"],["林委員倩綺：半夜沒有危險性嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不、不、不，我跟你說，工作有危險性……"],["林委員倩綺：不然我們一起來做看看，好不好？我們一起來做看看。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們會整理資料送給委員。"],["林委員倩綺：對，這就很細的，所以本席這邊就跟你說是不是就這一些細節，你們可以去了解一下這些實際的狀況，有沒有相對不公平跟不公義的制度？最後我提醒，像這個補貼性……對不起，你這樣子有點形式化的東西，會讓基層陷入一種補貼性操作的邏輯，明明是深夜來值班，但是如果沒有離開那個地方，譬如說，我們在櫃檯，不要說櫃檯，在警務所值班，難道要搬到戶外才叫做危勞，沒有搬到戶外就不是危勞？這些定義是不是可以討論一下？補償性風險的制度會變成行政操作的一個漏洞，對津貼過低的問題其實沒有真正的解決，請你們回去好好的討論跟了解，細節……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們會提供一些資料給委員。"],["林委員倩綺：我們就像那一天在細節上做一個討論，彼此有一些共識，最重要的是這些專業單位。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["林委員倩綺：最後我提醒一點，剛才黃國昌委員講公務人員調薪法制化，本席今天本來也要提醒，我現在鄭重地提醒，不要讓我們覺得加薪都要看氣氛、等訊息，好像都在……其實是某一些權益，我們也要看整個社會制度在社會的報酬率來講，還有社會的一個整理，你們必須要好好處理這個問題。法制化的這個議題是非常重要，在合理的指標下，我們應該年年有一些調整，不要看氣氛、等消息，感覺有點太多的行政決策干預，好不好？麻煩做一個處理。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不會，我們不會這樣。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝，感謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺林委員，你這個國台語雙聲帶，不錯！","接下來我們請吳思瑤委員質詢。我說錯了，你應該是國、台語再加英文，我聽過你說3種。"],["林委員倩綺：上次是西班牙文。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林倩綺","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈發惠","羅智強","王義川","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","吳宗憲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00001"}}}