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{\"word\": \"幫\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 518.229, \"end\": 518.389, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 518.389, \"end\": 518.689, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"套\", \"start\": 518.689, \"end\": 518.969, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 518.969, \"end\": 519.549, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 519.549, \"end\": 519.649, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 519.649, \"end\": 520.129, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 520.129, \"end\": 520.289, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 520.289, \"end\": 520.749, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 520.749, \"end\": 520.97, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 520.97, \"end\": 521.09, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 521.09, \"end\": 522.03, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 522.03, \"end\": 522.51, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": 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\"start\": 762.299, \"end\": 762.599, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 762.599, \"end\": 762.619, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:20,216 --> 00:00:47,004\n請博定國部長委員長博定剛才有人在問你說逗台的事情其實你應該沒有見情啦沒有嘛對不對我這個在這個工作上面我很努力對啦很努力沒有見情啦事實上比做多久更重要的就是要留下美名不要留下罵名\n\n2\n00:00:48,188 --> 00:01:15,140\n我現在看你民調還算在前面啦還算在前面那最重要的要讓人民是幫你鼓掌的不要背後你去做民調的時候很多人罵你這個才比做多久更重要那最近有一個事情就會關係到你會留下美名還是罵名其實有兩個很重要的嘛你的任內電價會漲幾次這個就是你的歷史定位喔每次民調漲一次電價你可能民調就掉一些了\n\n3\n00:01:16,380 --> 00:01:45,528\n然後第二個你到底有沒有幫民眾解決用電的這個穩定然後電價不要一直是往上漲的這兩個都非常非常重要的包括你有沒有從根本的問題因為Keyup來啊台電本來是個金雞模那它為什麼變成敗家子你找到那個病因啊對不對我們要從那個治本去把它解決你如果這個問題解決了那連你要建型你要走人民都會挽留你啊你如果走你如果一些事情都處理不好\n\n4\n00:01:46,584 --> 00:01:50,910\n那人民就希望你走嘛是不是所以柏定我先來討論一個問題來你的任內啊你覺得你的任內電價會漲幾次肯定會漲幾次對不對最近4月份會再漲一次嗎郭志輝的任內\n\n5\n00:02:04,011 --> 00:02:19,300\n馬上要漲第二次的電價嗎這會是你的歷史定位是人民對郭志輝的評價嗎報告委員就像那一天院長在大會大院上面講的我不是水電部長我是經濟部長我是為中華民國的經濟來打拚的\n\n6\n00:02:21,181 --> 00:02:34,768\n所以福國利民才是我的目標當然委員所關心的水電的部分這個是非常重要的跟民生絕對有相關所以您的指教我一定會謹記在心那至於處理台電的這個電價的問題我再三的跟您報告電價的問題不是由經濟部長來決定的\n\n7\n00:02:45,674 --> 00:03:09,486\n電價是由電價審議委員來決定的電價審議委員包含所有的專家、學者以及用電戶部長抱歉因為時間有限已經用掉一半時間了因為我在質詢我抱歉我必須要打斷非常抱歉我們讓人民知道經濟部跟政府有很重要的責任讓我們的電力不只要穩定電價也不能一直漲來我給你看一個圖來你看一下\n\n8\n00:03:11,206 --> 00:03:13,967\n看一下這是2006年到2004年的電價的調整馬英九任內漲了4次降了3次蔡英文漲了4次\n\n9\n00:03:23,161 --> 00:03:43,812\n這個就是大家對馬英九跟蔡英文的評價一樣嘛我就是要問你嘛你現在任內你要盡量不要讓他一直長你看我們為民進黨執政以後最近這三年像沖天炮一樣三年已經沖了四次了你如果最近又漲了一次就三年漲了五次喔等一下大家都會記得郭志輝的任內\n\n10\n00:03:44,833 --> 00:04:09,102\n已經漲了兩次了好不好所以你盡量要去踩煞車沒有這是第一第二個更重要的大家對你更深的一個期待我也不是說隨便叫你說電價不要漲啊你從七月來你應該去找那個病因在什麼地方嘛你看為什麼馬英九時代電價上去後來就掉下來民進黨政府為什麼一直往上衝為什麼民進黨政府做了兩件事情是馬英九沒有做的\n\n11\n00:04:10,626 --> 00:04:33,985\n停掉核電對不對核電核一核二核三一年大概多花了一千億啊第二個買了綠電嘛這個都是民進黨以前沒有的你光是最近你買了那麼多的綠電一年300億度你現在只賣10%出去嘛對不對你如果儘快你現在賣RE30你儘快把它賣出去你一年五六百億的錢就進來了啊所以在講就是說電價可以不用漲\n\n12\n00:04:35,543 --> 00:05:02,363\n你去解決核電的問題你去解決馬上可以做的馬上可以做的剛講的I-30趕快去賣你把你買的高價買的核電把它賣出去7月可以買到綠電對不對這是7月也有嘛對不對台電也不要虧損嘛人民也不要再不要再被你漲電價所以4月1號有太多方法可以做好不好好好想一下好不好那另外我提我前幾天有特別提醒你你是漲電價我看\n\n13\n00:05:05,714 --> 00:05:18,610\n有一個不用漲的方式就是豐電的廠商跟你台電都有簽契約嘛對不對雲能豐廠2分2米的400億啊你這400億只要一把回來了你幹嘛去漲電價你現在有去把這個錢出回來了嗎\n\n14\n00:05:24,939 --> 00:05:46,608\n報告委員我們所做所為都是依法依規在進行那麼在法律的框架之下我們該做的事情都會去做那所以委員所指導的跟指教的部分我們會來參考那如果說我們有做不好的地方或者是沒有做到的地方這個我們會努力去改善\n\n15\n00:05:48,613 --> 00:06:07,840\n所以這個很具體嘛就是允能這個就是失敗的地方嘛對不對這個是依法要的啊你在允能該給你這400億的同時還有你漲電價的這個同時當然是先處理這400億進來啊那你說依法依合約來做為什麼到現在400億沒有要回來嗎能不能在最近電價審理委員會\n\n16\n00:06:09,420 --> 00:06:32,960\n好開會之前把這400億要回來要回來你就可以電交審理委員講啊我現在有錢啊我們不要我們不要去圖利廠商我們會照顧人民這一部分我是不請那個南原局長跟你報告一下好不好等一下啦你私底下再給我那個啦我現在要求你私底下我因為我問題沒有問完時間已經到了抱歉局長那個因為沒有那個400億啦那個400億是委員算的那沒有那個400億這個從去年開始從\n\n17\n00:06:36,045 --> 00:07:00,958\n不是每一條都是想在問的時候你們都說你們盡力要去把這400億要回來這企業不是清清楚楚嗎因為它有中間有一些遇到COVID有一些不可抗力的因素是可以扣除所以OK來所以第一個不是沒有是有然後你說是因為碰到疫情對不對可是它確實造成我們第一個造成我們要用綠電延誤了第二個是依照企業就是應該可以罰我現在問你哪一個輕哪一個重我想對於這個題聽我講哪一個輕哪一個重在企業\n\n18\n00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:06,524\n在風電商跟人民之間哪一個重\n\n19\n00:07:07,950 --> 00:07:34,226\n你現在這400億不要回來結果你去仗人民的這個底下你現在只要再把400億依法去契約沒有400億這個命題沒有400億這個命題你說沒有是因為你說你把它認定放寬變成說碰到疫情嘛對不對我們可以跟你再報告這個部分齁但是沒有400億這個命題所以要我去要這個400億真的就是我沒有辦法這個這個不憑空嘛你們現在的解釋是說因為碰到疫情嘛對不對\n\n20\n00:07:35,246 --> 00:07:50,136\n你等於是放寬了嘛HIGHCHASE是延誤了嘛所以蔡委所理的保證金要扣抵這個問題嘛我們絕對是依法我們決定是絕對依法依規來進行的我們一定是依照法律的規定在進行工作如果委員認為說我們這裡面有不法的行為我歡迎提告\n\n21\n00:08:02,664 --> 00:08:07,046\n一方面是提告嘛,一方面你們有責任我們建議,也許我們的做法,您認為說不對,那我們接受這個改善但是如果不是事實的,歡迎提告普天,我經常在經濟二輪會問這件事,已經問兩次了第一,總是想問一件事,要回去查證書,然後會盡量這個是虛無的事情\n\n22\n00:08:28,545 --> 00:08:48,972\n這個是委員推估的推估的金額我們認為這樣不是推估的金額不是署長合約上面是這樣寫嘛對不對現在是你們幫他解套嘛沒有沒有委員如果認為在這個情況之下我們歡迎提告一方面是提告一方面是你們不要只有幫廠商解套的同時我們不會幫廠商來做這個這個\n\n23\n00:08:53,888 --> 00:09:21,319\n解釋一方面我們走法律的途徑一方面就是你要跟民眾非常清楚交代是有這個企業的只是你幫他用疫情這個解套人家接不接受這個就是我剛講的歷史定位跟人民什麼看你的問題人民覺得你該不該幫他解套特別他影響到我們漲電價報告委員我們希望就事實討論衍生性的這個假設啊我認為還是要透過科學的方式來討論因為所有的事實的\n\n24\n00:09:22,379 --> 00:09:37,606\n這個反正所有的事實的進行一定是有科學的根據才能夠提出來論述用假設性或者推論的我認為這樣的話可能就失去我們理系討論的這樣的一個範圍什麼叫事實什麼叫科學有沒有這份\n\n25\n00:09:39,208 --> 00:09:56,027\n這個合約有嘛有沒有罰款這個事情有嘛現在問題出這個有這個就是事實這個就是科學現在問題出在你們幫他解套啊我們是依合約來討論這樣那你幫他解套我問你你要幫他解套的同時上不上的選委的同時你幫他解套完之後四百億不見了你又來佔我們的電價\n\n26\n00:09:57,674 --> 00:10:21,871\n不是這樣子這個事情我們要清楚這是一條路第二個我們有共識嘛對不對保定那第二個我們有共識R1300要綠電趕快賣對不對讓企業可以買到電可以贏然後呢台電台電可以賺到錢根本就不用漲電價我們生命的贏不用好不好我們來研究啦我們一定是在法律的框架之下\n\n27\n00:10:22,671 --> 00:10:39,754\n我們來進行我們的業務啦超過法律的允許的範圍我們是沒有辦法做的這一點請我這個委員可以原諒我們就用事實跟科學來做今天這個討論所以馬上讓人民電價對整個物價衝擊是太大的那我們提出三個解方\n\n28\n00:10:40,555 --> 00:11:08,471\n至少有兩個你是有共識的嘛第一個綠電趕快賣出去創造企業買到電台電有賺到錢人民不用漲電價是個三年這是第一條路第二個重啟核電最近國際上都已經重啟了AIT的處長這幾天已經說了他說連美國日本都在用核電他們還可以幫我們好不好斯德晚前任的這個AIT的處長也講了好好去思考一下包括烏俄戰爭的時候德國都讓他的這個三座\n\n29\n00:11:10,498 --> 00:11:36,195\n三座這個核電廠都可以研議那最近美國跟日本都是只要是安全的一到三年都可以重啟我想研議的問題我們是要尊重這個大院的這個規定那大院在之前有規定我們一定要下載我們在法的框架下去進行這個核電下載當然你要說研議啊恢復我想這個只要大院通過\n\n30\n00:11:37,316 --> 00:12:06,079\n我們就是尊重大院的這個規定昨天委員會已經開了第一個公聽會啦這個我們會盡快修法方面我們會我相信這個不是只有在野黨的這個責任啦執政黨更有這個義務跟這個責任要去共同來推動包括部長這對你來講能源的穩定跟電價不要太高這都是你的事好所以綠電核電趕快要去處理那你剛剛講有爭議性的這一塊我們讓全民來公平到底你們用這個疫情這個去幫他解套到底合不合適我們會急著追下去\n\n31\n00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:25,830\n我們不會為單一廠商去解套我也要求我的同仁必須要在法的框架之內進行工作不能夠為單一廠商去解套目前看到的事實就是這樣啊我們在法的框架之內我們去努力但是我們絕不為這個法以外的事情去做解套\n\n32\n00:12:36,755 --> 00:12:42,619\n部長一方面是法啦一方面就是現在人民看到的事你去幫這家廠商四百億沒進來你們已經重複四百億是民推運的謝謝大家好我們現在\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n20216\t47004\t請博定國部長委員長博定 剛才有人在問你說逗台的事情其實你應該沒有見情啦沒有嘛 對不對我這個 在這個工作上面 我很努力對啦 很努力 沒有見情啦事實上比做多久更重要的就是要留下美名 不要留下罵名\n48188\t75140\t我現在看你民調還算在前面啦還算在前面那最重要的要讓人民是幫你鼓掌的不要背後你去做民調的時候很多人罵你這個才比做多久更重要那最近有一個事情就會關係到你會留下美名還是罵名其實有兩個很重要的嘛你的任內電價會漲幾次這個就是你的歷史定位喔每次民調漲一次電價你可能民調就掉一些了\n76380\t105528\t然後第二個你到底有沒有幫民眾解決用電的這個穩定然後電價不要一直是往上漲的這兩個都非常非常重要的包括你有沒有從根本的問題因為Key up來啊台電本來是個金雞模那它為什麼變成敗家子你找到那個病因啊對不對我們要從那個治本去把它解決你如果這個問題解決了那連你要建型你要走人民都會挽留你啊你如果走你如果一些事情都處理不好\n106584\t110910\t那人民就希望你走嘛 是不是所以柏定我先來討論一個問題來你的任內啊 你覺得你的任內 電價會漲幾次肯定會漲幾次對不對最近4月份會再漲一次嗎 郭志輝的任內\n124011\t139300\t馬上要漲第二次的電價嗎這會是你的歷史定位是人民對郭志輝的評價嗎報告委員就像那一天院長在大會大院上面講的我不是水電部長我是經濟部長我是為中華民國的經濟來打拚的\n141181\t154768\t所以福國利民才是我的目標當然委員所關心的水電的部分這個是非常重要的跟民生絕對有相關所以您的指教我一定會謹記在心那至於處理台電的這個電價的問題我再三的跟您報告電價的問題不是由經濟部長來決定的\n165674\t189486\t電價是由電價審議委員來決定的電價審議委員包含所有的專家、學者以及用電戶部長抱歉因為時間有限已經用掉一半時間了因為我在質詢我抱歉我必須要打斷非常抱歉我們讓人民知道經濟部跟政府有很重要的責任讓我們的電力不只要穩定電價也不能一直漲來我給你看一個圖來你看一下\n191206\t193967\t看一下這是2006年到2004年的電價的調整馬英九任內漲了4次 降了3次蔡英文漲了4次\n203161\t223812\t這個就是大家對馬英九跟蔡英文的評價一樣嘛我就是要問你嘛你現在任內你要盡量不要讓他一直長你看我們為民進黨執政以後最近這三年像沖天炮一樣三年已經沖了四次了你如果最近又漲了一次就三年漲了五次喔等一下大家都會記得郭志輝的任內\n224833\t249102\t已經漲了兩次了 好不好所以你盡量要去踩煞車沒有 這是第一第二個更重要的大家對你更深的一個期待我也不是說隨便叫你說電價不要漲啊你從七月來你應該去找那個病因在什麼地方嘛你看 為什麼馬英九時代電價上去後來就掉下來民進黨政府為什麼一直往上衝 為什麼民進黨政府做了兩件事情是馬英九沒有做的\n250626\t273985\t停掉核電對不對核電核一核二核三一年大概多花了一千億啊第二個買了綠電嘛這個都是民進黨以前沒有的你光是最近你買了那麼多的綠電一年300億度你現在只賣10%出去嘛對不對你如果儘快你現在賣RE30你儘快把它賣出去你一年五六百億的錢就進來了啊所以在講就是說電價可以不用漲\n275543\t302363\t你去解決核電的問題你去解決馬上可以做的馬上可以做的剛講的I-30趕快去賣你把你買的高價買的核電把它賣出去7月可以買到綠電對不對這是7月也有嘛對不對台電也不要虧損嘛人民也不要再不要再被你漲電價所以4月1號有太多方法可以做好不好好好想一下好不好那另外我提我前幾天有特別提醒你你是漲電價我看\n305714\t318610\t有一個不用漲的方式就是豐電的廠商跟你台電都有簽契約嘛對不對雲能豐廠2分2米的400億啊你這400億只要一把回來了你幹嘛去漲電價你現在有去把這個錢出回來了嗎\n324939\t346608\t報告委員我們所做所為都是依法依規在進行那麼在法律的框架之下我們該做的事情都會去做那所以委員所指導的跟指教的部分我們會來參考那如果說我們有做不好的地方或者是沒有做到的地方這個我們會努力去改善\n348613\t367840\t所以這個很具體嘛就是允能這個就是失敗的地方嘛對不對這個是依法要的啊你在允能該給你這400億的同時還有你漲電價的這個同時當然是先處理這400億進來啊那你說依法依合約來做為什麼到現在400億沒有要回來嗎能不能在最近電價審理委員會\n369420\t392960\t好 開會之前把這400億要回來要回來你就可以電交審理委員講啊我現在有錢啊我們不要 我們不要去圖利廠商我們會照顧人民這一部分我是不請那個南原局長跟你報告一下好不好等一下啦 你私底下再給我那個啦我現在要求 你私底下 我因為我問題沒有問完時間已經到了 抱歉 局長那個因為沒有那個400億啦那個400億是委員算的 那沒有那個400億這個從去年開始 從\n396045\t420958\t不是每一條都是想在問的時候你們都說你們盡力要去把這400億要回來這企業不是清清楚楚嗎因為它有中間有一些遇到COVID有一些不可抗力的因素是可以扣除所以OK來所以第一個不是沒有是有然後你說是因為碰到疫情對不對可是它確實造成我們第一個造成我們要用綠電延誤了第二個是依照企業就是應該可以罰我現在問你哪一個輕哪一個重我想對於這個題聽我講哪一個輕哪一個重在企業\n424640\t426524\t在風電商跟人民之間哪一個重\n427950\t454226\t你現在這400億不要回來 結果你去仗人民的這個底下你現在只要再把400億依法去契約沒有400億這個命題沒有400億這個命題你說沒有是因為你說你把它認定放寬變成說碰到疫情嘛對不對我們可以跟你再報告這個部分齁但是沒有400億這個命題所以要我去要這個400億真的就是我沒有辦法這個這個不憑空嘛你們現在的解釋是說因為碰到疫情嘛對不對\n455246\t470136\t你等於是放寬了嘛HIGH CHASE是延誤了嘛所以蔡委所理的保證金要扣抵這個問題嘛我們絕對是依法我們決定是絕對依法依規來進行的我們一定是依照法律的規定在進行工作如果委員認為說我們這裡面有不法的行為我歡迎提告\n482664\t487046\t一方面是提告嘛,一方面你們有責任我們建議,也許我們的做法,您認為說不對,那我們接受這個改善但是如果不是事實的,歡迎提告普天,我經常在經濟二輪會問這件事,已經問兩次了第一,總是想問一件事,要回去查證書,然後會盡量這個是虛無的事情\n508545\t528972\t這個是委員推估的推估的金額我們認為這樣不是推估的金額 不是 署長合約上面是這樣寫嘛 對不對現在是你們幫他解套嘛沒有沒有 委員如果認為在這個情況之下我們歡迎提告一方面是提告 一方面是你們不要只有幫廠商解套的同時我們不會幫廠商來做這個這個\n533888\t561319\t解釋一方面我們走法律的途徑一方面就是你要跟民眾非常清楚交代是有這個企業的只是你幫他用疫情這個解套人家接不接受這個就是我剛講的歷史定位跟人民什麼看你的問題人民覺得你該不該幫他解套特別他影響到我們漲電價報告委員我們希望就事實討論衍生性的這個假設啊我認為還是要透過科學的方式來討論因為所有的事實的\n562379\t577606\t這個反正所有的事實的進行一定是有科學的根據才能夠提出來論述用假設性或者推論的我認為這樣的話可能就失去我們理系討論的這樣的一個範圍什麼叫事實 什麼叫科學有沒有這份\n579208\t596027\t這個合約 有嘛有沒有罰款這個事情 有嘛現在問題出這個有 這個就是事實 這個就是科學現在問題出在你們幫他解套啊我們是依合約來討論這樣那你幫他解套我問你 你要幫他解套的同時上不上的選委的同時你幫他解套完之後四百億不見了你又來佔我們的電價\n597674\t621871\t不是這樣子這個事情我們要清楚這是一條路第二個我們有共識嘛對不對保定那第二個我們有共識R1300要綠電趕快賣對不對讓企業可以買到電可以贏然後呢台電台電可以賺到錢根本就不用漲電價我們生命的贏不用好不好我們來研究啦我們一定是在法律的框架之下\n622671\t639754\t我們來進行我們的業務啦超過法律的允許的範圍我們是沒有辦法做的這一點請我這個委員可以原諒我們就用事實跟科學來做今天這個討論所以馬上讓人民電價對整個物價衝擊是太大的那我們提出三個解方\n640555\t668471\t至少有兩個你是有共識的嘛第一個綠電趕快賣出去創造企業買到電台電有賺到錢人民不用漲電價是個三年這是第一條路第二個重啟核電最近國際上都已經重啟了AIT的處長這幾天已經說了他說連美國日本都在用核電他們還可以幫我們好不好斯德晚前任的這個AIT的處長也講了好好去思考一下包括烏俄戰爭的時候德國都讓他的這個三座\n670498\t696195\t三座這個核電廠都可以研議那最近美國跟日本都是只要是安全的一到三年都可以重啟我想研議的問題我們是要尊重這個大院的這個規定那大院在之前有規定我們一定要下載我們在法的框架下去進行這個核電下載當然你要說研議啊恢復我想這個只要大院通過\n697316\t726079\t我們就是尊重大院的這個規定昨天委員會已經開了第一個公聽會啦這個我們會盡快修法方面我們會我相信這個不是只有在野黨的這個責任啦執政黨更有這個義務跟這個責任要去共同來推動包括部長這對你來講能源的穩定跟電價不要太高這都是你的事好所以綠電核電趕快要去處理那你剛剛講有爭議性的這一塊我們讓全民來公平到底你們用這個疫情這個去幫他解套到底合不合適我們會急著追下去\n727200\t745830\t我們不會為單一廠商去解套我也要求我的同仁必須要在法的框架之內進行工作不能夠為單一廠商去解套目前看到的事實就是這樣啊我們在法的框架之內我們去努力但是我們絕不為這個法以外的事情去做解套\n756755\t762619\t部長一方面是法啦一方面就是現在人民看到的事你去幫這家廠商四百億沒進來你們已經重複四百億是民推運的謝謝大家好我們現在\n","txt":"請博定國部長委員長博定 剛才有人在問你說逗台的事情其實你應該沒有見情啦沒有嘛 對不對我這個 在這個工作上面 我很努力對啦 很努力 沒有見情啦事實上比做多久更重要的就是要留下美名 不要留下罵名\n我現在看你民調還算在前面啦還算在前面那最重要的要讓人民是幫你鼓掌的不要背後你去做民調的時候很多人罵你這個才比做多久更重要那最近有一個事情就會關係到你會留下美名還是罵名其實有兩個很重要的嘛你的任內電價會漲幾次這個就是你的歷史定位喔每次民調漲一次電價你可能民調就掉一些了\n然後第二個你到底有沒有幫民眾解決用電的這個穩定然後電價不要一直是往上漲的這兩個都非常非常重要的包括你有沒有從根本的問題因為Key up來啊台電本來是個金雞模那它為什麼變成敗家子你找到那個病因啊對不對我們要從那個治本去把它解決你如果這個問題解決了那連你要建型你要走人民都會挽留你啊你如果走你如果一些事情都處理不好\n那人民就希望你走嘛 是不是所以柏定我先來討論一個問題來你的任內啊 你覺得你的任內 電價會漲幾次肯定會漲幾次對不對最近4月份會再漲一次嗎 郭志輝的任內\n馬上要漲第二次的電價嗎這會是你的歷史定位是人民對郭志輝的評價嗎報告委員就像那一天院長在大會大院上面講的我不是水電部長我是經濟部長我是為中華民國的經濟來打拚的\n所以福國利民才是我的目標當然委員所關心的水電的部分這個是非常重要的跟民生絕對有相關所以您的指教我一定會謹記在心那至於處理台電的這個電價的問題我再三的跟您報告電價的問題不是由經濟部長來決定的\n電價是由電價審議委員來決定的電價審議委員包含所有的專家、學者以及用電戶部長抱歉因為時間有限已經用掉一半時間了因為我在質詢我抱歉我必須要打斷非常抱歉我們讓人民知道經濟部跟政府有很重要的責任讓我們的電力不只要穩定電價也不能一直漲來我給你看一個圖來你看一下\n看一下這是2006年到2004年的電價的調整馬英九任內漲了4次 降了3次蔡英文漲了4次\n這個就是大家對馬英九跟蔡英文的評價一樣嘛我就是要問你嘛你現在任內你要盡量不要讓他一直長你看我們為民進黨執政以後最近這三年像沖天炮一樣三年已經沖了四次了你如果最近又漲了一次就三年漲了五次喔等一下大家都會記得郭志輝的任內\n已經漲了兩次了 好不好所以你盡量要去踩煞車沒有 這是第一第二個更重要的大家對你更深的一個期待我也不是說隨便叫你說電價不要漲啊你從七月來你應該去找那個病因在什麼地方嘛你看 為什麼馬英九時代電價上去後來就掉下來民進黨政府為什麼一直往上衝 為什麼民進黨政府做了兩件事情是馬英九沒有做的\n停掉核電對不對核電核一核二核三一年大概多花了一千億啊第二個買了綠電嘛這個都是民進黨以前沒有的你光是最近你買了那麼多的綠電一年300億度你現在只賣10%出去嘛對不對你如果儘快你現在賣RE30你儘快把它賣出去你一年五六百億的錢就進來了啊所以在講就是說電價可以不用漲\n你去解決核電的問題你去解決馬上可以做的馬上可以做的剛講的I-30趕快去賣你把你買的高價買的核電把它賣出去7月可以買到綠電對不對這是7月也有嘛對不對台電也不要虧損嘛人民也不要再不要再被你漲電價所以4月1號有太多方法可以做好不好好好想一下好不好那另外我提我前幾天有特別提醒你你是漲電價我看\n有一個不用漲的方式就是豐電的廠商跟你台電都有簽契約嘛對不對雲能豐廠2分2米的400億啊你這400億只要一把回來了你幹嘛去漲電價你現在有去把這個錢出回來了嗎\n報告委員我們所做所為都是依法依規在進行那麼在法律的框架之下我們該做的事情都會去做那所以委員所指導的跟指教的部分我們會來參考那如果說我們有做不好的地方或者是沒有做到的地方這個我們會努力去改善\n所以這個很具體嘛就是允能這個就是失敗的地方嘛對不對這個是依法要的啊你在允能該給你這400億的同時還有你漲電價的這個同時當然是先處理這400億進來啊那你說依法依合約來做為什麼到現在400億沒有要回來嗎能不能在最近電價審理委員會\n好 開會之前把這400億要回來要回來你就可以電交審理委員講啊我現在有錢啊我們不要 我們不要去圖利廠商我們會照顧人民這一部分我是不請那個南原局長跟你報告一下好不好等一下啦 你私底下再給我那個啦我現在要求 你私底下 我因為我問題沒有問完時間已經到了 抱歉 局長那個因為沒有那個400億啦那個400億是委員算的 那沒有那個400億這個從去年開始 從\n不是每一條都是想在問的時候你們都說你們盡力要去把這400億要回來這企業不是清清楚楚嗎因為它有中間有一些遇到COVID有一些不可抗力的因素是可以扣除所以OK來所以第一個不是沒有是有然後你說是因為碰到疫情對不對可是它確實造成我們第一個造成我們要用綠電延誤了第二個是依照企業就是應該可以罰我現在問你哪一個輕哪一個重我想對於這個題聽我講哪一個輕哪一個重在企業\n在風電商跟人民之間哪一個重\n你現在這400億不要回來 結果你去仗人民的這個底下你現在只要再把400億依法去契約沒有400億這個命題沒有400億這個命題你說沒有是因為你說你把它認定放寬變成說碰到疫情嘛對不對我們可以跟你再報告這個部分齁但是沒有400億這個命題所以要我去要這個400億真的就是我沒有辦法這個這個不憑空嘛你們現在的解釋是說因為碰到疫情嘛對不對\n你等於是放寬了嘛HIGH CHASE是延誤了嘛所以蔡委所理的保證金要扣抵這個問題嘛我們絕對是依法我們決定是絕對依法依規來進行的我們一定是依照法律的規定在進行工作如果委員認為說我們這裡面有不法的行為我歡迎提告\n一方面是提告嘛,一方面你們有責任我們建議,也許我們的做法,您認為說不對,那我們接受這個改善但是如果不是事實的,歡迎提告普天,我經常在經濟二輪會問這件事,已經問兩次了第一,總是想問一件事,要回去查證書,然後會盡量這個是虛無的事情\n這個是委員推估的推估的金額我們認為這樣不是推估的金額 不是 署長合約上面是這樣寫嘛 對不對現在是你們幫他解套嘛沒有沒有 委員如果認為在這個情況之下我們歡迎提告一方面是提告 一方面是你們不要只有幫廠商解套的同時我們不會幫廠商來做這個這個\n解釋一方面我們走法律的途徑一方面就是你要跟民眾非常清楚交代是有這個企業的只是你幫他用疫情這個解套人家接不接受這個就是我剛講的歷史定位跟人民什麼看你的問題人民覺得你該不該幫他解套特別他影響到我們漲電價報告委員我們希望就事實討論衍生性的這個假設啊我認為還是要透過科學的方式來討論因為所有的事實的\n這個反正所有的事實的進行一定是有科學的根據才能夠提出來論述用假設性或者推論的我認為這樣的話可能就失去我們理系討論的這樣的一個範圍什麼叫事實 什麼叫科學有沒有這份\n這個合約 有嘛有沒有罰款這個事情 有嘛現在問題出這個有 這個就是事實 這個就是科學現在問題出在你們幫他解套啊我們是依合約來討論這樣那你幫他解套我問你 你要幫他解套的同時上不上的選委的同時你幫他解套完之後四百億不見了你又來佔我們的電價\n不是這樣子這個事情我們要清楚這是一條路第二個我們有共識嘛對不對保定那第二個我們有共識R1300要綠電趕快賣對不對讓企業可以買到電可以贏然後呢台電台電可以賺到錢根本就不用漲電價我們生命的贏不用好不好我們來研究啦我們一定是在法律的框架之下\n我們來進行我們的業務啦超過法律的允許的範圍我們是沒有辦法做的這一點請我這個委員可以原諒我們就用事實跟科學來做今天這個討論所以馬上讓人民電價對整個物價衝擊是太大的那我們提出三個解方\n至少有兩個你是有共識的嘛第一個綠電趕快賣出去創造企業買到電台電有賺到錢人民不用漲電價是個三年這是第一條路第二個重啟核電最近國際上都已經重啟了AIT的處長這幾天已經說了他說連美國日本都在用核電他們還可以幫我們好不好斯德晚前任的這個AIT的處長也講了好好去思考一下包括烏俄戰爭的時候德國都讓他的這個三座\n三座這個核電廠都可以研議那最近美國跟日本都是只要是安全的一到三年都可以重啟我想研議的問題我們是要尊重這個大院的這個規定那大院在之前有規定我們一定要下載我們在法的框架下去進行這個核電下載當然你要說研議啊恢復我想這個只要大院通過\n我們就是尊重大院的這個規定昨天委員會已經開了第一個公聽會啦這個我們會盡快修法方面我們會我相信這個不是只有在野黨的這個責任啦執政黨更有這個義務跟這個責任要去共同來推動包括部長這對你來講能源的穩定跟電價不要太高這都是你的事好所以綠電核電趕快要去處理那你剛剛講有爭議性的這一塊我們讓全民來公平到底你們用這個疫情這個去幫他解套到底合不合適我們會急著追下去\n我們不會為單一廠商去解套我也要求我的同仁必須要在法的框架之內進行工作不能夠為單一廠商去解套目前看到的事實就是這樣啊我們在法的框架之內我們去努力但是我們絕不為這個法以外的事情去做解套\n部長一方面是法啦一方面就是現在人民看到的事你去幫這家廠商四百億沒進來你們已經重複四百億是民推運的謝謝大家好我們現在\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:20.216 --> 00:47.004\n請博定國部長委員長博定剛才有人在問你說逗台的事情其實你應該沒有見情啦沒有嘛對不對我這個在這個工作上面我很努力對啦很努力沒有見情啦事實上比做多久更重要的就是要留下美名不要留下罵名\n\n00:48.188 --> 01:15.140\n我現在看你民調還算在前面啦還算在前面那最重要的要讓人民是幫你鼓掌的不要背後你去做民調的時候很多人罵你這個才比做多久更重要那最近有一個事情就會關係到你會留下美名還是罵名其實有兩個很重要的嘛你的任內電價會漲幾次這個就是你的歷史定位喔每次民調漲一次電價你可能民調就掉一些了\n\n01:16.380 --> 01:45.528\n然後第二個你到底有沒有幫民眾解決用電的這個穩定然後電價不要一直是往上漲的這兩個都非常非常重要的包括你有沒有從根本的問題因為Keyup來啊台電本來是個金雞模那它為什麼變成敗家子你找到那個病因啊對不對我們要從那個治本去把它解決你如果這個問題解決了那連你要建型你要走人民都會挽留你啊你如果走你如果一些事情都處理不好\n\n01:46.584 --> 01:50.910\n那人民就希望你走嘛是不是所以柏定我先來討論一個問題來你的任內啊你覺得你的任內電價會漲幾次肯定會漲幾次對不對最近4月份會再漲一次嗎郭志輝的任內\n\n02:04.011 --> 02:19.300\n馬上要漲第二次的電價嗎這會是你的歷史定位是人民對郭志輝的評價嗎報告委員就像那一天院長在大會大院上面講的我不是水電部長我是經濟部長我是為中華民國的經濟來打拚的\n\n02:21.181 --> 02:34.768\n所以福國利民才是我的目標當然委員所關心的水電的部分這個是非常重要的跟民生絕對有相關所以您的指教我一定會謹記在心那至於處理台電的這個電價的問題我再三的跟您報告電價的問題不是由經濟部長來決定的\n\n02:45.674 --> 03:09.486\n電價是由電價審議委員來決定的電價審議委員包含所有的專家、學者以及用電戶部長抱歉因為時間有限已經用掉一半時間了因為我在質詢我抱歉我必須要打斷非常抱歉我們讓人民知道經濟部跟政府有很重要的責任讓我們的電力不只要穩定電價也不能一直漲來我給你看一個圖來你看一下\n\n03:11.206 --> 03:13.967\n看一下這是2006年到2004年的電價的調整馬英九任內漲了4次降了3次蔡英文漲了4次\n\n03:23.161 --> 03:43.812\n這個就是大家對馬英九跟蔡英文的評價一樣嘛我就是要問你嘛你現在任內你要盡量不要讓他一直長你看我們為民進黨執政以後最近這三年像沖天炮一樣三年已經沖了四次了你如果最近又漲了一次就三年漲了五次喔等一下大家都會記得郭志輝的任內\n\n03:44.833 --> 04:09.102\n已經漲了兩次了好不好所以你盡量要去踩煞車沒有這是第一第二個更重要的大家對你更深的一個期待我也不是說隨便叫你說電價不要漲啊你從七月來你應該去找那個病因在什麼地方嘛你看為什麼馬英九時代電價上去後來就掉下來民進黨政府為什麼一直往上衝為什麼民進黨政府做了兩件事情是馬英九沒有做的\n\n04:10.626 --> 04:33.985\n停掉核電對不對核電核一核二核三一年大概多花了一千億啊第二個買了綠電嘛這個都是民進黨以前沒有的你光是最近你買了那麼多的綠電一年300億度你現在只賣10%出去嘛對不對你如果儘快你現在賣RE30你儘快把它賣出去你一年五六百億的錢就進來了啊所以在講就是說電價可以不用漲\n\n04:35.543 --> 05:02.363\n你去解決核電的問題你去解決馬上可以做的馬上可以做的剛講的I-30趕快去賣你把你買的高價買的核電把它賣出去7月可以買到綠電對不對這是7月也有嘛對不對台電也不要虧損嘛人民也不要再不要再被你漲電價所以4月1號有太多方法可以做好不好好好想一下好不好那另外我提我前幾天有特別提醒你你是漲電價我看\n\n05:05.714 --> 05:18.610\n有一個不用漲的方式就是豐電的廠商跟你台電都有簽契約嘛對不對雲能豐廠2分2米的400億啊你這400億只要一把回來了你幹嘛去漲電價你現在有去把這個錢出回來了嗎\n\n05:24.939 --> 05:46.608\n報告委員我們所做所為都是依法依規在進行那麼在法律的框架之下我們該做的事情都會去做那所以委員所指導的跟指教的部分我們會來參考那如果說我們有做不好的地方或者是沒有做到的地方這個我們會努力去改善\n\n05:48.613 --> 06:07.840\n所以這個很具體嘛就是允能這個就是失敗的地方嘛對不對這個是依法要的啊你在允能該給你這400億的同時還有你漲電價的這個同時當然是先處理這400億進來啊那你說依法依合約來做為什麼到現在400億沒有要回來嗎能不能在最近電價審理委員會\n\n06:09.420 --> 06:32.960\n好開會之前把這400億要回來要回來你就可以電交審理委員講啊我現在有錢啊我們不要我們不要去圖利廠商我們會照顧人民這一部分我是不請那個南原局長跟你報告一下好不好等一下啦你私底下再給我那個啦我現在要求你私底下我因為我問題沒有問完時間已經到了抱歉局長那個因為沒有那個400億啦那個400億是委員算的那沒有那個400億這個從去年開始從\n\n06:36.045 --> 07:00.958\n不是每一條都是想在問的時候你們都說你們盡力要去把這400億要回來這企業不是清清楚楚嗎因為它有中間有一些遇到COVID有一些不可抗力的因素是可以扣除所以OK來所以第一個不是沒有是有然後你說是因為碰到疫情對不對可是它確實造成我們第一個造成我們要用綠電延誤了第二個是依照企業就是應該可以罰我現在問你哪一個輕哪一個重我想對於這個題聽我講哪一個輕哪一個重在企業\n\n07:04.640 --> 07:06.524\n在風電商跟人民之間哪一個重\n\n07:07.950 --> 07:34.226\n你現在這400億不要回來結果你去仗人民的這個底下你現在只要再把400億依法去契約沒有400億這個命題沒有400億這個命題你說沒有是因為你說你把它認定放寬變成說碰到疫情嘛對不對我們可以跟你再報告這個部分齁但是沒有400億這個命題所以要我去要這個400億真的就是我沒有辦法這個這個不憑空嘛你們現在的解釋是說因為碰到疫情嘛對不對\n\n07:35.246 --> 07:50.136\n你等於是放寬了嘛HIGHCHASE是延誤了嘛所以蔡委所理的保證金要扣抵這個問題嘛我們絕對是依法我們決定是絕對依法依規來進行的我們一定是依照法律的規定在進行工作如果委員認為說我們這裡面有不法的行為我歡迎提告\n\n08:02.664 --> 08:07.046\n一方面是提告嘛,一方面你們有責任我們建議,也許我們的做法,您認為說不對,那我們接受這個改善但是如果不是事實的,歡迎提告普天,我經常在經濟二輪會問這件事,已經問兩次了第一,總是想問一件事,要回去查證書,然後會盡量這個是虛無的事情\n\n08:28.545 --> 08:48.972\n這個是委員推估的推估的金額我們認為這樣不是推估的金額不是署長合約上面是這樣寫嘛對不對現在是你們幫他解套嘛沒有沒有委員如果認為在這個情況之下我們歡迎提告一方面是提告一方面是你們不要只有幫廠商解套的同時我們不會幫廠商來做這個這個\n\n08:53.888 --> 09:21.319\n解釋一方面我們走法律的途徑一方面就是你要跟民眾非常清楚交代是有這個企業的只是你幫他用疫情這個解套人家接不接受這個就是我剛講的歷史定位跟人民什麼看你的問題人民覺得你該不該幫他解套特別他影響到我們漲電價報告委員我們希望就事實討論衍生性的這個假設啊我認為還是要透過科學的方式來討論因為所有的事實的\n\n09:22.379 --> 09:37.606\n這個反正所有的事實的進行一定是有科學的根據才能夠提出來論述用假設性或者推論的我認為這樣的話可能就失去我們理系討論的這樣的一個範圍什麼叫事實什麼叫科學有沒有這份\n\n09:39.208 --> 09:56.027\n這個合約有嘛有沒有罰款這個事情有嘛現在問題出這個有這個就是事實這個就是科學現在問題出在你們幫他解套啊我們是依合約來討論這樣那你幫他解套我問你你要幫他解套的同時上不上的選委的同時你幫他解套完之後四百億不見了你又來佔我們的電價\n\n09:57.674 --> 10:21.871\n不是這樣子這個事情我們要清楚這是一條路第二個我們有共識嘛對不對保定那第二個我們有共識R1300要綠電趕快賣對不對讓企業可以買到電可以贏然後呢台電台電可以賺到錢根本就不用漲電價我們生命的贏不用好不好我們來研究啦我們一定是在法律的框架之下\n\n10:22.671 --> 10:39.754\n我們來進行我們的業務啦超過法律的允許的範圍我們是沒有辦法做的這一點請我這個委員可以原諒我們就用事實跟科學來做今天這個討論所以馬上讓人民電價對整個物價衝擊是太大的那我們提出三個解方\n\n10:40.555 --> 11:08.471\n至少有兩個你是有共識的嘛第一個綠電趕快賣出去創造企業買到電台電有賺到錢人民不用漲電價是個三年這是第一條路第二個重啟核電最近國際上都已經重啟了AIT的處長這幾天已經說了他說連美國日本都在用核電他們還可以幫我們好不好斯德晚前任的這個AIT的處長也講了好好去思考一下包括烏俄戰爭的時候德國都讓他的這個三座\n\n11:10.498 --> 11:36.195\n三座這個核電廠都可以研議那最近美國跟日本都是只要是安全的一到三年都可以重啟我想研議的問題我們是要尊重這個大院的這個規定那大院在之前有規定我們一定要下載我們在法的框架下去進行這個核電下載當然你要說研議啊恢復我想這個只要大院通過\n\n11:37.316 --> 12:06.079\n我們就是尊重大院的這個規定昨天委員會已經開了第一個公聽會啦這個我們會盡快修法方面我們會我相信這個不是只有在野黨的這個責任啦執政黨更有這個義務跟這個責任要去共同來推動包括部長這對你來講能源的穩定跟電價不要太高這都是你的事好所以綠電核電趕快要去處理那你剛剛講有爭議性的這一塊我們讓全民來公平到底你們用這個疫情這個去幫他解套到底合不合適我們會急著追下去\n\n12:07.200 --> 12:25.830\n我們不會為單一廠商去解套我也要求我的同仁必須要在法的框架之內進行工作不能夠為單一廠商去解套目前看到的事實就是這樣啊我們在法的框架之內我們去努力但是我們絕不為這個法以外的事情去做解套\n\n12:36.755 --> 12:42.619\n部長一方面是法啦一方面就是現在人民看到的事你去幫這家廠商四百億沒進來你們已經重複四百億是民推運的謝謝大家好我們現在\n\n","segments":[{"start":20.216,"end":47.004,"text":"請博定國部長委員長博定 剛才有人在問你說逗台的事情其實你應該沒有見情啦沒有嘛 對不對我這個 在這個工作上面 我很努力對啦 很努力 沒有見情啦事實上比做多久更重要的就是要留下美名 不要留下罵名"},{"start":48.188,"end":75.14,"text":"我現在看你民調還算在前面啦還算在前面那最重要的要讓人民是幫你鼓掌的不要背後你去做民調的時候很多人罵你這個才比做多久更重要那最近有一個事情就會關係到你會留下美名還是罵名其實有兩個很重要的嘛你的任內電價會漲幾次這個就是你的歷史定位喔每次民調漲一次電價你可能民調就掉一些了"},{"start":76.38,"end":105.528,"text":"然後第二個你到底有沒有幫民眾解決用電的這個穩定然後電價不要一直是往上漲的這兩個都非常非常重要的包括你有沒有從根本的問題因為Key up來啊台電本來是個金雞模那它為什麼變成敗家子你找到那個病因啊對不對我們要從那個治本去把它解決你如果這個問題解決了那連你要建型你要走人民都會挽留你啊你如果走你如果一些事情都處理不好"},{"start":106.584,"end":110.91,"text":"那人民就希望你走嘛 是不是所以柏定我先來討論一個問題來你的任內啊 你覺得你的任內 電價會漲幾次肯定會漲幾次對不對最近4月份會再漲一次嗎 郭志輝的任內"},{"start":124.011,"end":139.3,"text":"馬上要漲第二次的電價嗎這會是你的歷史定位是人民對郭志輝的評價嗎報告委員就像那一天院長在大會大院上面講的我不是水電部長我是經濟部長我是為中華民國的經濟來打拚的"},{"start":141.181,"end":154.768,"text":"所以福國利民才是我的目標當然委員所關心的水電的部分這個是非常重要的跟民生絕對有相關所以您的指教我一定會謹記在心那至於處理台電的這個電價的問題我再三的跟您報告電價的問題不是由經濟部長來決定的"},{"start":165.674,"end":189.486,"text":"電價是由電價審議委員來決定的電價審議委員包含所有的專家、學者以及用電戶部長抱歉因為時間有限已經用掉一半時間了因為我在質詢我抱歉我必須要打斷非常抱歉我們讓人民知道經濟部跟政府有很重要的責任讓我們的電力不只要穩定電價也不能一直漲來我給你看一個圖來你看一下"},{"start":191.206,"end":193.967,"text":"看一下這是2006年到2004年的電價的調整馬英九任內漲了4次 降了3次蔡英文漲了4次"},{"start":203.161,"end":223.812,"text":"這個就是大家對馬英九跟蔡英文的評價一樣嘛我就是要問你嘛你現在任內你要盡量不要讓他一直長你看我們為民進黨執政以後最近這三年像沖天炮一樣三年已經沖了四次了你如果最近又漲了一次就三年漲了五次喔等一下大家都會記得郭志輝的任內"},{"start":224.833,"end":249.102,"text":"已經漲了兩次了 好不好所以你盡量要去踩煞車沒有 這是第一第二個更重要的大家對你更深的一個期待我也不是說隨便叫你說電價不要漲啊你從七月來你應該去找那個病因在什麼地方嘛你看 為什麼馬英九時代電價上去後來就掉下來民進黨政府為什麼一直往上衝 為什麼民進黨政府做了兩件事情是馬英九沒有做的"},{"start":250.626,"end":273.985,"text":"停掉核電對不對核電核一核二核三一年大概多花了一千億啊第二個買了綠電嘛這個都是民進黨以前沒有的你光是最近你買了那麼多的綠電一年300億度你現在只賣10%出去嘛對不對你如果儘快你現在賣RE30你儘快把它賣出去你一年五六百億的錢就進來了啊所以在講就是說電價可以不用漲"},{"start":275.543,"end":302.363,"text":"你去解決核電的問題你去解決馬上可以做的馬上可以做的剛講的I-30趕快去賣你把你買的高價買的核電把它賣出去7月可以買到綠電對不對這是7月也有嘛對不對台電也不要虧損嘛人民也不要再不要再被你漲電價所以4月1號有太多方法可以做好不好好好想一下好不好那另外我提我前幾天有特別提醒你你是漲電價我看"},{"start":305.714,"end":318.61,"text":"有一個不用漲的方式就是豐電的廠商跟你台電都有簽契約嘛對不對雲能豐廠2分2米的400億啊你這400億只要一把回來了你幹嘛去漲電價你現在有去把這個錢出回來了嗎"},{"start":324.939,"end":346.608,"text":"報告委員我們所做所為都是依法依規在進行那麼在法律的框架之下我們該做的事情都會去做那所以委員所指導的跟指教的部分我們會來參考那如果說我們有做不好的地方或者是沒有做到的地方這個我們會努力去改善"},{"start":348.613,"end":367.84,"text":"所以這個很具體嘛就是允能這個就是失敗的地方嘛對不對這個是依法要的啊你在允能該給你這400億的同時還有你漲電價的這個同時當然是先處理這400億進來啊那你說依法依合約來做為什麼到現在400億沒有要回來嗎能不能在最近電價審理委員會"},{"start":369.42,"end":392.96,"text":"好 開會之前把這400億要回來要回來你就可以電交審理委員講啊我現在有錢啊我們不要 我們不要去圖利廠商我們會照顧人民這一部分我是不請那個南原局長跟你報告一下好不好等一下啦 你私底下再給我那個啦我現在要求 你私底下 我因為我問題沒有問完時間已經到了 抱歉 局長那個因為沒有那個400億啦那個400億是委員算的 那沒有那個400億這個從去年開始 從"},{"start":396.045,"end":420.958,"text":"不是每一條都是想在問的時候你們都說你們盡力要去把這400億要回來這企業不是清清楚楚嗎因為它有中間有一些遇到COVID有一些不可抗力的因素是可以扣除所以OK來所以第一個不是沒有是有然後你說是因為碰到疫情對不對可是它確實造成我們第一個造成我們要用綠電延誤了第二個是依照企業就是應該可以罰我現在問你哪一個輕哪一個重我想對於這個題聽我講哪一個輕哪一個重在企業"},{"start":424.64,"end":426.524,"text":"在風電商跟人民之間哪一個重"},{"start":427.95,"end":454.226,"text":"你現在這400億不要回來 結果你去仗人民的這個底下你現在只要再把400億依法去契約沒有400億這個命題沒有400億這個命題你說沒有是因為你說你把它認定放寬變成說碰到疫情嘛對不對我們可以跟你再報告這個部分齁但是沒有400億這個命題所以要我去要這個400億真的就是我沒有辦法這個這個不憑空嘛你們現在的解釋是說因為碰到疫情嘛對不對"},{"start":455.246,"end":470.136,"text":"你等於是放寬了嘛HIGH CHASE是延誤了嘛所以蔡委所理的保證金要扣抵這個問題嘛我們絕對是依法我們決定是絕對依法依規來進行的我們一定是依照法律的規定在進行工作如果委員認為說我們這裡面有不法的行為我歡迎提告"},{"start":482.664,"end":487.046,"text":"一方面是提告嘛,一方面你們有責任我們建議,也許我們的做法,您認為說不對,那我們接受這個改善但是如果不是事實的,歡迎提告普天,我經常在經濟二輪會問這件事,已經問兩次了第一,總是想問一件事,要回去查證書,然後會盡量這個是虛無的事情"},{"start":508.545,"end":528.972,"text":"這個是委員推估的推估的金額我們認為這樣不是推估的金額 不是 署長合約上面是這樣寫嘛 對不對現在是你們幫他解套嘛沒有沒有 委員如果認為在這個情況之下我們歡迎提告一方面是提告 一方面是你們不要只有幫廠商解套的同時我們不會幫廠商來做這個這個"},{"start":533.888,"end":561.319,"text":"解釋一方面我們走法律的途徑一方面就是你要跟民眾非常清楚交代是有這個企業的只是你幫他用疫情這個解套人家接不接受這個就是我剛講的歷史定位跟人民什麼看你的問題人民覺得你該不該幫他解套特別他影響到我們漲電價報告委員我們希望就事實討論衍生性的這個假設啊我認為還是要透過科學的方式來討論因為所有的事實的"},{"start":562.379,"end":577.606,"text":"這個反正所有的事實的進行一定是有科學的根據才能夠提出來論述用假設性或者推論的我認為這樣的話可能就失去我們理系討論的這樣的一個範圍什麼叫事實 什麼叫科學有沒有這份"},{"start":579.208,"end":596.027,"text":"這個合約 有嘛有沒有罰款這個事情 有嘛現在問題出這個有 這個就是事實 這個就是科學現在問題出在你們幫他解套啊我們是依合約來討論這樣那你幫他解套我問你 你要幫他解套的同時上不上的選委的同時你幫他解套完之後四百億不見了你又來佔我們的電價"},{"start":597.674,"end":621.871,"text":"不是這樣子這個事情我們要清楚這是一條路第二個我們有共識嘛對不對保定那第二個我們有共識R1300要綠電趕快賣對不對讓企業可以買到電可以贏然後呢台電台電可以賺到錢根本就不用漲電價我們生命的贏不用好不好我們來研究啦我們一定是在法律的框架之下"},{"start":622.671,"end":639.754,"text":"我們來進行我們的業務啦超過法律的允許的範圍我們是沒有辦法做的這一點請我這個委員可以原諒我們就用事實跟科學來做今天這個討論所以馬上讓人民電價對整個物價衝擊是太大的那我們提出三個解方"},{"start":640.555,"end":668.471,"text":"至少有兩個你是有共識的嘛第一個綠電趕快賣出去創造企業買到電台電有賺到錢人民不用漲電價是個三年這是第一條路第二個重啟核電最近國際上都已經重啟了AIT的處長這幾天已經說了他說連美國日本都在用核電他們還可以幫我們好不好斯德晚前任的這個AIT的處長也講了好好去思考一下包括烏俄戰爭的時候德國都讓他的這個三座"},{"start":670.498,"end":696.195,"text":"三座這個核電廠都可以研議那最近美國跟日本都是只要是安全的一到三年都可以重啟我想研議的問題我們是要尊重這個大院的這個規定那大院在之前有規定我們一定要下載我們在法的框架下去進行這個核電下載當然你要說研議啊恢復我想這個只要大院通過"},{"start":697.316,"end":726.079,"text":"我們就是尊重大院的這個規定昨天委員會已經開了第一個公聽會啦這個我們會盡快修法方面我們會我相信這個不是只有在野黨的這個責任啦執政黨更有這個義務跟這個責任要去共同來推動包括部長這對你來講能源的穩定跟電價不要太高這都是你的事好所以綠電核電趕快要去處理那你剛剛講有爭議性的這一塊我們讓全民來公平到底你們用這個疫情這個去幫他解套到底合不合適我們會急著追下去"},{"start":727.2,"end":745.83,"text":"我們不會為單一廠商去解套我也要求我的同仁必須要在法的框架之內進行工作不能夠為單一廠商去解套目前看到的事實就是這樣啊我們在法的框架之內我們去努力但是我們絕不為這個法以外的事情去做解套"},{"start":756.755,"end":762.619,"text":"部長一方面是法啦一方面就是現在人民看到的事你去幫這家廠商四百億沒進來你們已經重複四百億是民推運的謝謝大家好我們現在"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":162,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時52分）請部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，剛才有人在問你關於下臺的事情，你應該沒有倦勤啦！沒有嘛，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：在這個工作上面我努力。"],["張委員啓楷：對啦！很努力，沒有倦勤啦！事實上比做多久更重要的，就是要留下美名，不要留下罵名。我現在看你民調還算在前面，最重要的要讓人民是幫你鼓掌的，不要背後做民調的時候，很多人罵你，這個比做多久更重要。最近有一個事情關係到你會留下美名還是罵名，其實有兩點很重要，你的任內電價會漲幾次，就是你的歷史定位喔！每漲一次電價，你的民調可能就掉一些了；第二個，你到底有沒有幫民眾解決用電穩定，然後電價不要一直往上漲，這兩個都非常、非常重要，包括你有沒有從根本的問題來看，你從企業來的啊！台電本來是個金雞母，為什麼變成敗家子？你要找到病因啊！對不對？我們要從治本去把它解決，你如果這個問題解決了，連你要倦勤、你要走，人民都會挽留你。你如果事情一直都處理不好，人民就希望你走，是不是？部長，我先跟你討論一個問題，你覺得在你的任內電價會漲幾次？去年已經漲一次，對不對？最近4月份會再漲一次嗎？郭智輝的任內馬上就要漲第二次的電價嗎？這會是你的歷史定位，是人民對郭智輝的評價嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，就像那一天院長在院會上講的，我不是水電部長，我是經濟部長。我是為中華民國的經濟來打拚，所以福國利民才是我的目標。當然委員所關心的水電部分，這個是非常重要的，跟民生絕對有正相關……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，因為時間很有限……"],["郭部長智輝：對於您的指教，我會謹記在心。至於處理台電電價的問題，我再三跟您報告，電價問題不是由經濟部長來決定的，電價是由電價審議委員來決定的。電價審議委員包含所有的專家、學者以及用電戶，由他們來決定。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，抱歉，因為時間有限，已經用掉一半的時間了。因為我在質詢，抱歉，我必須要打斷，非常抱歉。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我們要讓人民知道到經濟部跟政府有很重要的責任，讓電力不只要穩定，電價也不能一直漲。","我給你看一個圖。你看一下，這是2006年到2024年的電價調整，馬英九任內漲了四次、降了三次；蔡英文漲了四次，這個就是大家對馬英九跟蔡英文的評價。一樣，我就是要問你，你現在任內儘量不要讓它一直漲。你看從民進黨執政以後，最近這三年像沖天炮一樣，三年已經沖了四次了，如果最近又漲一次，就是三年漲了五次喔！第一個，大家就會記得郭智輝的任內已經漲了兩次了，所以你儘量要去踩煞車，這是第一個。第二個是更重要的，大家對你有更深的期待，我也不是隨便叫你電價不要漲啊！你來自企業，你應該去找那個病因在什麼地方。你看，為什麼馬英九時代電價上去後來會掉下來？民進黨政府為什麼一直往上沖？為什麼？民進黨政府做了兩件事情是馬英九沒有做的，停掉核電，對不對？核一、核二、核三一年大概就多花了1,000億；第二個是買了綠電，這個都是民進黨以前沒有的，光是最近你買了那麼多的綠電，一年300億度，現在只賣10%出去，對不對？如果現在賣RE30儘快賣出去，一年五、六百億的錢就進來了啊！","所以我一直在講，電價可以不用漲，要去解決核電的問題，你去解決馬上可以做的，剛剛講的RE30趕快去賣，把你們高價買的核電賣出去，企業可以買到綠電，這樣企業也贏，對不對？台電不要虧損，人民也不要再被漲電價，所以4月1號有太多方法可以做，好好想一下，好不好？","另外，我前幾天有特別提醒你，你是漲電價，我看有一個不用漲的方式，風電的廠商跟台電都有簽契約，對不對？在雲林的允能風場，400億啊！這400億只要依法要回來，你幹嘛去漲電價？你現在有去把這個錢追回來嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們所作所為都是依法依規在進行，在法律的框架之下，我們該做的事情都會去做，所以委員所指導跟指教的部分，我們會來參考，如果我們有做不好的地方或是沒有做到的地方，我們會努力去改善。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，所以這個很具體嘛！允能這個就是400億在那邊，對不對？這個是依法要的啊！在允能該給你們400億及漲電價的同時，當然是先處理這400億進來啊！你說依法、依合約來做，為什麼到現在400億都沒有要回來？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：能不能在最近電價審議委員會開會之前把這400億要回來？要回來，你就可以跟電價審議委員會講，我們現在有錢啊！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：我們不要去圖利廠商，我們會照顧人民。"],["郭部長智輝：這一部分我是不是請能源署長跟你報告一下？"],["張委員啓楷：等一下，你私底下再給我資料。我現在要求，因為我問題沒有問完，時間已經到了，抱歉！署長……"],["李代理署長君禮：因為沒有那個400億啦！400億是委員算的，沒有那個400億。"],["張委員啓楷：這個從去年開始，不只媒體喔！"],["李代理署長君禮：因為中間要……"],["張委員啓楷：羅智強在問的時候，你們都說你們盡力要去把這400億要回來，這契約不是清清楚楚嗎？"],["李代理署長君禮：沒有那400億，因為中間遇到COVID，有一些不可抗力的因素是可以扣抵的。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，所以第一個，不是沒有嘛！是有，然後你說是因為碰到疫情，對不對？可是第一個，它確實造成我們要用綠電延誤了；第二個，依照契約就是應該可以罰嘛！我現在問你，哪一個輕、哪一個重？"],["郭部長智輝：委員，對於這個……"],["張委員啓楷：你聽我講、你聽我講，哪一個輕、哪一個重？"],["郭部長智輝：我們跟你報告……"],["張委員啓楷：在企業、在風電商跟人民之間，哪一個重？你們現在這400億不要回來，結果去漲人民的電價！"],["郭部長智輝：不是，委員，沒有那個400……"],["張委員啓楷：你們現在只要把400億依法跟契約……"],["郭部長智輝：沒有400億這個命題、沒有400億這個命題。"],["張委員啓楷：你說沒有是因為你說你們認定放寬，變成說是碰到疫情，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：我們可以跟你再報告這個部分，但是沒有400億這個命題，所以要我去要這個400億，我真的沒有辦法憑空來……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你們現在的解釋是因為碰到疫情，對不對？等於是放寬了嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有400億這個命題。"],["張委員啓楷：它確實是延誤了嘛！所以才會有履約保證金要扣抵的這個問題，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：我們絕對是依法……"],["張委員啓楷：那你們現在是圖利……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們絕對是依法依規來進行的。"],["張委員啓楷：幫風電廠商解約、圖利廠商，然後來漲人民的電價！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，我們一定是依照法律規定在進行工作……"],["張委員啓楷：契約上面是這樣寫啊！"],["郭部長智輝：如果委員認為這裡面有不法的行為，我歡迎提告！"],["張委員啓楷：好，我們一方面是提告，一方面你們有責任啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我們建議……"],["張委員啓楷：如我剛才講的，現在有兩個大的問題啦！"],["郭部長智輝：也許您認為我們的作法不對，那我們接受改善，但如果不是事實的，歡迎提告。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我之前在經濟委員會問你這個事情已經問兩次了，在總質詢問一次……"],["郭部長智輝：對，但是我的同仁告訴我……"],["張委員啓楷：你們都說要回去查清楚，然後會儘量……"],["郭部長智輝：這個是虛無的事情，這個是委員推估的。"],["張委員啓楷：剛剛你們的署長……"],["郭部長智輝：推估的金額，我們認為這樣……"],["張委員啓楷：不是推估的金額，署長，合約上面是這樣寫嘛，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是啊！所以……"],["張委員啓楷：現在是你們幫它解套嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：你們說因為有疫情，所以……"],["郭部長智輝：委員如果認為是在這個情況之下，我們歡迎提告。"],["張委員啓楷：一方面是提告，一方面是你們不要只有幫廠商解套的同時，又要漲人民的電價！"],["郭部長智輝：我們不會幫廠商解釋。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，一方面我們會走法律的途徑，一方面你要向民眾非常清楚交代，是有這個契約的，只是你幫它用疫情來解套，人民接不接受？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然是為國人在做服務的工作。"],["張委員啓楷：這個就是我剛剛講的歷史定位跟人民怎麼看你的問題囉！"],["郭部長智輝：對，但是……"],["張委員啓楷：人民覺得你該不該幫它解套，特別是它影響到我們漲電價。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們希望就事實討論，關於衍生性的假設，我認為還是要透過科學的方式來討論……"],["張委員啓楷：部長……"],["郭部長智輝：因為所有事實的反證、所有事實的進行，一定是有科學的根據才能夠提出來論述，用假設性或者推論的，我認為這樣可能就失去我們理性討論的範圍。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，什麼叫事實、什麼叫科學？有沒有這份合約？有嘛！有沒有罰款這個事情？有嘛！現在問題出……"],["郭部長智輝：我們一定……"],["張委員啓楷：這個就是事實、這個就是科學，現在問題出在你們幫它解套啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我們就是依合約來討論。"],["張委員啓楷：那你可以去幫它解套？"],["郭部長智輝：我們沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：我問你，你要幫它解套的同時、站不站得住腳的同時……"],["郭部長智輝：我們不會為單獨廠商解套。"],["張委員啓楷：你幫它解套完之後，400億不見了，你又來漲我們的電價！"],["郭部長智輝：不是這樣子，我想委員……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，好啦！OK，我們把這個事情追清楚，這是一條路……"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分我們可以再來討論。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個我們有共識嘛，對不對？部長。"],["郭部長智輝：什麼？"],["張委員啓楷：第二個我們有共識，RE30還有綠電趕快賣，對不對？讓企業可以買得到電、可以贏，然後台電可以賺到錢，根本就不用漲電價，人民也贏，好不好？這是第二個。"],["郭部長智輝：我們來研究啦！"],["張委員啓楷：第三個，核能……"],["郭部長智輝：我們一定是在法律的框架之下來進行我們的業務，超過法律所允許的範圍，我們是沒有辦法做的，這一點請委員可以原諒。"],["張委員啓楷：好，我們就用事實跟科學來做今天的討論。"],["郭部長智輝：是的！"],["張委員啓楷：馬上要漲人民電價，對整個物價的衝擊實在是太大了，所以我們提出三個解方，至少有兩個你是有共識的，第一個，綠電趕快賣出去，創造企業買得到電、台電有賺到錢、人民不用漲電價的三贏，這是第一條路。第二個，重啟核電，最近國際上都已經重啟了，AIT處長這幾天已經說了，他說連美國、日本都在用核電，他們還可以幫我們，好不好？前任AIT處長司徒文也講了，好好去思考一下，包括烏俄戰爭的時候，德國讓三座核電廠都可以延役，最近美國跟日本都是只要是安全的，一到三年都可以重啟。好好想一下，你們挖了一個大洞……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，關於延役的問題，我們要尊重大院的規定，大院在之前有規定我們一定要下載，我們在法的框架下去進行核電下載，當然你說要延役、恢復，我想這個只要大院通過，我們就尊重大院的規定。"],["張委員啓楷：昨天委員會已經開了第一個公聽會，我們會儘快修法。我相信這個不是只有在野黨的責任，執政黨更有義務跟責任共同推動，包括部長，對你來講，能源的穩定跟電價不要太高都是你的責任。綠電、核電趕快要去處理，而你剛才講到有爭議性的這一塊，我們讓全民來公評，到底你們用疫情去幫它解套是否合適，我們會繼續再追下去。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們不會為單一廠商去解套……"],["張委員啓楷：最重要的，在事實跟科學下，電價不要漲、可以降。"],["郭部長智輝：我也要求我的同仁必須要在法的框架之內進行工作，不能夠為單一廠商解套，這個不符合公務進行。"],["張委員啓楷：我目前看到的就是幫允能解套了啊！目前看到的事實就是這樣啊！這400億啊！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有、沒有，完全沒有，我們在法的框架之內去努力，但是我們絕不為法以外的事情去解套。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，一方面是法，一方面現在人民看到的就是你們去幫這家廠商，400億沒進來，你們又漲了電價。"],["主席：好了，你們已經重複兩次了，委員……"],["郭部長智輝：400億是您推論的。"],["主席：謝謝大家。","現在請鄭正鈐委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","賴士葆","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","郭國文","陳昭姿","林月琴","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","徐富癸","羅智強","陳超明","林德福","牛煦庭","蔡易餘"],"page_start":193,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00004"}}}