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00:01:14,909\n離開台灣的這個遊戲規則是在內政部移民署上有一些相關規定那我們會把這個資料會後再提供給委員參考任市長我剛剛很快的google了一下其實你們人事總書之前就有做過那個PPT啦簡報宣導的什麼公務人員赴大陸偏分成11值等以上跟11值等以下\n\n4\n00:01:17,197 --> 00:01:43,095\n對,十一值等以上嘛,受到比較嚴...十值等以上也沒關係,十值等以上就受到比較嚴格的管制十值等以下就比較沒有,就是一般的報備就可以了那現在關鍵點就是說,到底請假,就是利用自己的休假時間去大陸要不要報備?只要去大陸,不管你是用休假還是公假都要申請\n\n5\n00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:49,425\n都要申請報備嘛基本上報備的這個概念所以這個是現在就有的規定\n\n6\n00:01:50,857 --> 00:02:15,815\n對那剛剛王議員王玉川委員他問的這樣的問題顯然是好像沒有做功課所以實際上我們都有在座了我不知道是不是現在已經是有人就違反相關的規定那麼如果說陸委會移民署或是相關的機關有查到公務人員沒有報備沒有經過許可就去大陸那就把相關處罰案例拿出來講否則的話我覺得這樣刁難任市長我覺得並不公平\n\n7\n00:02:19,258 --> 00:02:40,619\n好那接下來我也想請教的這個問題就是人事長您有注意到在3月17號警察院他有做了一個報告就說現在他們有發現高階公務人員辭職又轉任政務官或者是他短期回任到事務官然後之後又再\n\n8\n00:02:41,975 --> 00:03:00,493\n復回去擔任政務官的這樣子的一個情況屢見不鮮而在近期他們有發現就是在監察院的報告裡面有發現大概累積地方政府還有地方政府的案例大概有11件\n\n9\n00:03:01,914 --> 00:03:17,779\n相關的情況都是政務官短期轉任成務文官再回任到原來的政務職務請問任市長為什麼會有這樣的問題出現我跟委員報告事實上他們這樣操作是\n\n10\n00:03:20,220 --> 00:03:37,962\n符合規定的啦符合規定只是說他這一種轉換的時間太短因為像舉一個例子啦像明年有些縣市首長已經兩任任期到了那有些蠻優秀的公務人員本來是11隻等\n\n11\n00:03:38,803 --> 00:04:03,353\n他現在當政務官嘛那如果明年年底之後他那個縣市長下來以後這個級數首長沒有繼續留任他只能夠領到11職等啊為了等於退休以後對這些常任文官轉政務官的給他比較好的一些待遇他們會去做轉換的動作但是說這個時間太長大家觀感不好啦\n\n12\n00:04:08,615 --> 00:04:21,132\n你如果有半年或者一年大家是覺得還比較OK因為有些是一天或一個禮拜就轉了大家的那種觀感一定是不好的市長您很清楚這樣的問題而且這個\n\n13\n00:04:24,035 --> 00:04:51,660\n優秀的事務官去借調去當政務官之後政務官可能因為首長離開或是首長另有考量那政務官又短暫的離開之後又回到事務官或是又再聘這個政務官這涉及到就是公務員他本身的敘心的問題他的資歷年資甚至有些退休公務員已經借齡退休像這個去年防務部次長陳明堂\n\n14\n00:04:53,200 --> 00:05:13,915\n就是這樣的一個例子嘛因為他已經要借齡退休了那他又必須要辭職辭職之後又回去當事務官然後11天之後又再被聘為次長歷史這個問題已經長期都存在在我們的公務體系人事總長這個問題沒有辦法解決嗎\n\n15\n00:05:16,926 --> 00:05:43,328\n我認為說你們也失職應該要想辦法去解決這個問題明明就是從多年來這個案例屢見不鮮而且我們現在沒有修法或是人事總處這裡沒有態度要透過怎麼樣行政解釋去讓這些事務官們可以很順利的也銜接他們的年資或他們的續薪等級不要說一定要回到原單位才退休\n\n16\n00:05:45,623 --> 00:06:04,478\n我想我這裡大概可以承諾委員我們再來跟前序部來討論看這個事情要如何比較圓滿的來解決因為事實上現在我理解的就有幾個縣市的高階文官現在是政務官可是他的職等就是十一職等\n\n17\n00:06:05,218 --> 00:06:32,920\n他在那個機關服務五到六年你看這樣的一個年資對之前他們到地方政府服務的對他們來講是相對不公平好OK那接下來我還要進入到另外一個話題就是剛剛其實有些委員有在問了就軍公教條新法制化那麼也知道就是人事總處這裡已經提出了軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案那麼本席其實已經將\n\n18\n00:06:34,441 --> 00:06:57,778\n人事長這邊所提出的這個條例草案有拜讀過你們大概訂定了有七條那裡面有些部分是我感到有疑問的在這邊請教你們這次將在這個條例草案裡面有一個部分就是要未來要成立一個軍公教人員的年度通案待遇調整諮詢會議可是在你們諮詢會議裡面\n\n19\n00:07:00,197 --> 00:07:24,043\n所未來規劃能夠成為諮詢委員的部分譬如說除了人事總長您還有副人事長之外中央機關代表七人地方機關代表四人現職公教人員代表四人專家學者四人就這樣子的一個規劃本席好奇的是你地方機關代表四人你怎麼產生現職公教人員代表四人你怎麼產生\n\n20\n00:07:28,373 --> 00:07:57,311\n我們現在地方機關我們有22個縣市對我們會報告委員我們那個地方政府的部分我們會輪流就是說比如說直轄市跟縣市的部分我們會分別就是每一屆的委員所以22個縣市你要輪流幾次才會輪到目前都是用目前中央教代理審議委員會也是這種機制就是說地方所以這樣的制度是不合理的啊不是嗎\n\n21\n00:07:59,303 --> 00:08:05,247\n所以有可能都是先從民進黨政府執政的縣市先輪不會不會像現在桃園跟台東關我們會有直轄市還有一般的16個縣市的像台東的還有桃園的我們一般來講我們會注意到這個橫平性\n\n22\n00:08:22,901 --> 00:08:40,753\n是啦我要提醒你們就說是這樣子的安排基本上不是很合理而且是由你們人事總署自己去指定哪些地方機關可以去推派代表除此之外現職公教人員代表四人我們現在台灣有多少的公務員有多少的公教人員\n\n23\n00:08:42,932 --> 00:09:09,708\n然後你要怎麼樣去領選這四位公教人員報告委員我們那個縣職公教人員代表是由那個全國工人協會跟中華民國全國教師會各推派兩人因為他們都屬於全國性的一個協會一個團體所以會由這兩個團體分別指派兩位代表來參與那你如果是這樣的話應該是說是不是就應該是說是由這個公教人員的相關組織來推派\n\n24\n00:09:13,405 --> 00:09:17,061\n坦白說這公務人員協會它是公會嗎\n\n25\n00:09:19,291 --> 00:09:45,208\n他是協會嘛他不是工會嘛剛剛羅志強委員有講我們現在台灣是一個有全世界的驕傲就是我們的工時很長我這邊要跟任市長講台灣另外一個全世界的驕傲就是我們公教人員被政府管得死死的尤其是公務人員到現在為止全世界沒有公務人員工會的就只有台灣\n\n26\n00:09:48,106 --> 00:10:04,543\n大部分國家都沒有如果有的話大概英國有而已美國自由之家社就已經說了全世界唯一沒有公務人員公會的國家就是中華民國\n\n27\n00:10:09,381 --> 00:10:22,244\n連現在對岸中國大陸他們都有公務人員工會但是我們沒有所以這個就是一個很嚴重的問題啊我們公務人員不能組工會以至於政府要我們簽拒絕簽這個忠誠切結書我們就得簽會不會是定義翻譯的問題\n\n28\n00:10:30,665 --> 00:10:53,555\n他不是公會而是協會政府機關我們公務人員都有協會法尤其這一次的協會法也有做一些換官我要說的是我們總是要向西方新進國家學習請您告訴我日本韓國歐盟這些國家美國有哪些國家是沒有公務人員公會的\n\n29\n00:10:54,930 --> 00:11:19,297\n我們會後提供給委員我們手上有資料市長你覺得公務人員該不該有工會我個人是覺得現在公務人員協會法你支持公務人員有工會我是支持公務人員協會對於工會的話因為我們還有一些疑慮而且公務人員的公會本身他是公務人員你今天在政府機關服務是有\n\n30\n00:11:20,737 --> 00:11:45,481\n按照那個法律的國家法律的義務責任跟一般的工會他的規定不一樣請問一般的勞工不需要依法嗎他不需要遵守現行的教官法律嗎用的法律不一樣用的法律不同啊教師要遵守教師法公務人員要遵守公務人員法就公務人員來講他的雇主就是國家就是政府我講白一點啦我如果是\n\n31\n00:11:46,621 --> 00:12:09,038\n我要主公會他的訴求就是要罷工嗎民眾對政府公務人員的罷工大家支持嗎這個問題我覺得是核心的問題要先討論如果民眾對公務人員罷工這個議題有意見的話我覺得這個政策還是先在公務人員缺口裡面來進行其實任市長我覺得您的觀念是落伍的\n\n32\n00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:36,511\n產住資工會不是只有罷工包含勞資協商包含權益的福利等等這些都可以現在協會基本上它這個功效不彰而且如果你認為協會就有為什麼不能夠直接就是定在工會法裡面啊你要弄了一個特別的公務人員協會所以這個就是一個根本的觀念我們現在已經進入到21世紀\n\n33\n00:12:39,272 --> 00:12:59,663\n我們台灣應該要像我們在尤其是在公務員的體制法制方面要向先進國家學習否則公務人員永遠被政府吃死死管死死不會喔所以是\n\n34\n00:13:01,498 --> 00:13:20,370\n所以任市長你不知道最近因為這個你們也配合陸委會要求大家要填公教人員要填這個忠誠切結書這件事情你不知道基層有反彈嗎非常少數為什麼不改\n\n35\n00:13:26,437 --> 00:13:53,433\n是我同意你這句話對國家忠誠問題沒有打折的空間所以到底現在我們的政府是抓到有幾個公教人員是違反國安法違反反滲透法的填這樣的忠誠切結書就能夠表示不是用抓的啦我沒有我們不是用抓的我們是鼓勵大家要誠實去申報啦因為我們政府就是靠誠實申報\n\n36\n00:13:54,898 --> 00:14:22,847\n是誠實申報你的誠實申報辦你就定在法律裡面啊現在相關規定已經有了相關規定有規定在哪裡有規定在哪裡兩岸關係條例沒有要求大家要誠實申報啊所以我的意思是講說這個其實就是涉及到任市長您對於公教人員的地位權益尊嚴的一個態度一個觀念想法\n\n37\n00:14:24,042 --> 00:14:52,888\n我現在我完全支持我們政府如果說有查到任何的公務人員違反兩岸關係條例違反反滲透法、國安法或是國家經濟保護法要嚴懲但是這是屬於政府機關自己要依法行政依職權去調查而不是叫大家全部都來簽竊結書現在我還只是針對公教人員現在已經擴大到所有的國營事業那下一個階段呢\n\n38\n00:14:53,428 --> 00:15:16,034\n是不是所有的企業勞工全部大家都要填最後是每個人以後都要自己申報都要填這個調查書我跟委員報告一件事情這就像銀行叫我們要填個人資料保護的相關的先告那個觀念一樣不要把它變成一個汙名化它就是我你就是來碰碰的這樣你也沒有我沒有\n\n39\n00:15:17,714 --> 00:15:38,182\n我不是說要汙名化我現在意思是講說任市長你要從根本的怎麼樣去維護公教人員的尊嚴權益這個角度去出發就像我說的99.9%的公教人員都會填但是也要去尊重那些為什麼不想填的人\n\n40\n00:15:39,002 --> 00:15:53,640\n他們就是匪諜嗎?他們就是中共同步人嗎?不想舔的人他可以不舔而且也沒有罰則目前的遊戲規則就是這樣謝謝翁小林委員給你雙方都很完整的論述跟回答謝謝我們現在休息五分鐘\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1582\t21630\t翁小玲委員咨詢完以後我們先休息五分鐘很高興今天聽到主席稱讚我實不敢當立法院美麗又有智慧的女委員非常多我可能還稱不上不過接下來要請任市長\n22570\t48015\t請人事長不要騙他來的洗禮委員長 你好我看早晚也是實話實說吧是 現在人事長這樣一說害我都不好意思接下來要怎麼問您問題了好 那首先我想就是接續的剛剛王一川委員的問題就是到底公務人員去大陸人事總署之前有沒有規定相關的SOP程序有嗎\n52048\t74909\t離開台灣的這個遊戲規則是在內政部移民署上有一些相關規定那我們會把這個資料會後再提供給委員參考任市長我剛剛很快的google了一下其實你們人事總書之前就有做過那個PPT啦簡報宣導的什麼公務人員赴大陸偏分成11值等以上跟11值等以下\n77197\t103095\t對,十一值等以上嘛,受到比較嚴...十值等以上也沒關係,十值等以上就受到比較嚴格的管制十值等以下就比較沒有,就是一般的報備就可以了那現在關鍵點就是說,到底請假,就是利用自己的休假時間去大陸要不要報備?只要去大陸,不管你是用休假還是公假都要申請\n103680\t109425\t都要申請報備嘛基本上報備的這個概念所以這個是現在就有的規定\n110857\t135815\t對 那剛剛王議員 王玉川委員他問的這樣的問題顯然是好像沒有做功課所以實際上我們都有在座了我不知道是不是現在已經是有人就違反相關的規定那麼如果說陸委會 移民署或是相關的機關有查到公務人員沒有報備沒有經過許可就去大陸那就把相關處罰案例拿出來講否則的話我覺得這樣刁難任市長我覺得並不公平\n139258\t160619\t好那接下來我也想請教的這個問題就是人事長您有注意到在3月17號警察院他有做了一個報告就說現在他們有發現高階公務人員辭職又轉任政務官或者是他短期回任到事務官然後之後又再\n161975\t180493\t復回去擔任政務官的這樣子的一個情況屢見不鮮而在近期他們有發現就是在監察院的報告裡面有發現大概累積地方政府還有地方政府的案例大概有11件\n181914\t197779\t相關的情況都是政務官短期轉任成務文官再回任到原來的政務職務請問任市長為什麼會有這樣的問題出現我跟委員報告事實上他們這樣操作是\n200220\t217962\t符合規定的啦符合規定只是說他這一種轉換的時間太短因為像舉一個例子啦像明年有些縣市首長已經兩任任期到了那有些蠻優秀的公務人員本來是11隻等\n218803\t243353\t他現在當政務官嘛那如果明年年底之後他那個縣市長下來以後這個級數首長沒有繼續留任他只能夠領到11職等啊為了等於退休以後對這些常任文官轉政務官的給他比較好的一些待遇他們會去做轉換的動作但是說這個時間太長大家觀感不好啦\n248615\t261132\t你如果有半年或者一年大家是覺得還比較OK因為有些是一天或一個禮拜就轉了大家的那種觀感一定是不好的市長您很清楚這樣的問題而且這個\n264035\t291660\t優秀的事務官去借調去當政務官之後政務官可能因為首長離開或是首長另有考量那政務官又短暫的離開之後又回到事務官或是又再聘這個政務官這涉及到就是公務員他本身的敘心的問題他的資歷年資甚至有些退休公務員已經借齡退休像這個去年防務部次長陳明堂\n293200\t313915\t就是這樣的一個例子嘛因為他已經要借齡退休了那他又必須要辭職 辭職之後又回去當事務官然後11天之後又再被聘為次長歷史這個問題已經長期都存在在我們的公務體系人事總長這個問題沒有辦法解決嗎\n316926\t343328\t我認為說你們也失職應該要想辦法去解決這個問題明明就是從多年來這個案例屢見不鮮而且我們現在沒有修法或是人事總處這裡沒有態度要透過怎麼樣行政解釋去讓這些事務官們可以很順利的也銜接他們的年資或他們的續薪等級不要說一定要回到原單位才退休\n345623\t364478\t我想我這裡大概可以承諾委員我們再來跟前序部來討論看這個事情要如何比較圓滿的來解決因為事實上現在我理解的就有幾個縣市的高階文官現在是政務官可是他的職等就是十一職等\n365218\t392920\t他在那個機關服務五到六年你看這樣的一個年資對之前他們到地方政府服務的對他們來講是相對不公平好OK那接下來我還要進入到另外一個話題就是剛剛其實有些委員有在問了就軍公教條新法制化那麼也知道就是人事總處這裡已經提出了軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案那麼本席其實已經將\n394441\t417778\t人事長這邊所提出的這個條例草案有拜讀過你們大概訂定了有七條那裡面有些部分是我感到有疑問的在這邊請教你們這次將在這個條例草案裡面有一個部分就是要未來要成立一個軍公教人員的年度通案待遇調整諮詢會議可是在你們諮詢會議裡面\n420197\t444043\t所未來規劃能夠成為諮詢委員的部分譬如說除了人事總長您還有副人事長之外中央機關代表七人地方機關代表四人現職公教人員代表四人專家學者四人就這樣子的一個規劃本席好奇的是你地方機關代表四人你怎麼產生現職公教人員代表四人你怎麼產生\n448373\t477311\t我們現在地方機關我們有22個縣市對 我們會 報告委員我們那個地方政府的部分我們會輪流就是說比如說直轄市跟縣市的部分我們會分別就是每一屆的委員所以22個縣市你要輪流幾次才會輪到目前都是用目前中央教代理審議委員會也是這種機制就是說地方所以這樣的制度是不合理的啊不是嗎\n479303\t485247\t所以有可能都是先從民進黨政府執政的縣市先輪不會不會像現在桃園跟台東關我們會有直轄市還有一般的16個縣市的像台東的還有桃園的我們一般來講我們會注意到這個橫平性\n502901\t520753\t是啦我要提醒你們就說是這樣子的安排基本上不是很合理而且是由你們人事總署自己去指定哪些地方機關可以去推派代表除此之外現職公教人員代表四人我們現在台灣有多少的公務員有多少的公教人員\n522932\t549708\t然後你要怎麼樣去領選這四位公教人員報告委員我們那個縣職公教人員代表是由那個全國工人協會跟中華民國全國教師會各推派兩人因為他們都屬於全國性的一個協會一個團體所以會由這兩個團體分別指派兩位代表來參與那你如果是這樣的話應該是說是不是就應該是說是由這個公教人員的相關組織來推派\n553405\t557061\t坦白說這公務人員協會它是公會嗎\n559291\t585208\t他是協會嘛 他不是工會嘛剛剛羅志強委員有講我們現在台灣是一個有全世界的驕傲就是我們的工時很長我這邊要跟任市長講台灣另外一個全世界的驕傲就是我們公教人員被政府管得死死的尤其是公務人員到現在為止全世界沒有公務人員 工會的就只有台灣\n588106\t604543\t大部分國家都沒有 如果有的話大概英國有而已美國自由之家社就已經說了全世界唯一沒有公務人員公會的國家就是中華民國\n609381\t622244\t連現在對岸中國大陸他們都有公務人員工會但是我們沒有所以這個就是一個很嚴重的問題啊我們公務人員不能組工會以至於政府要我們簽拒絕簽這個忠誠切結書我們就得簽會不會是定義翻譯的問題\n630665\t653555\t他不是公會而是協會政府機關我們公務人員都有協會法尤其這一次的協會法也有做一些換官我要說的是我們總是要向西方新進國家學習請您告訴我日本韓國歐盟這些國家美國有哪些國家是沒有公務人員公會的\n654930\t679297\t我們會後提供給委員我們手上有資料市長你覺得公務人員該不該有工會我個人是覺得現在公務人員協會法你支持公務人員有工會我是支持公務人員協會對於工會的話因為我們還有一些疑慮而且公務人員的公會本身他是公務人員你今天在政府機關服務是有\n680737\t705481\t按照那個法律的國家法律的義務責任跟一般的工會他的規定不一樣請問一般的勞工不需要依法嗎他不需要遵守現行的教官法律嗎用的法律不一樣用的法律不同啊教師要遵守教師法公務人員要遵守公務人員法就公務人員來講他的雇主就是國家就是政府我講白一點啦我如果是\n706621\t729038\t我要主公會他的訴求就是要罷工嗎民眾對政府公務人員的罷工大家支持嗎這個問題我覺得是核心的問題要先討論如果民眾對公務人員罷工這個議題有意見的話我覺得這個政策還是先在公務人員缺口裡面來進行其實任市長我覺得您的觀念是落伍的\n730559\t756511\t產住資工會不是只有罷工包含勞資協商包含權益的福利等等這些都可以現在協會基本上它這個功效不彰而且如果你認為協會就有為什麼不能夠直接就是定在工會法裡面啊你要弄了一個特別的公務人員協會所以這個就是一個根本的觀念我們現在已經進入到21世紀\n759272\t779663\t我們台灣應該要像我們在尤其是在公務員的體制法制方面要向先進國家學習否則公務人員永遠被政府吃死死管死死不會喔所以是\n781498\t800370\t所以任市長你不知道最近因為這個你們也配合陸委會要求大家要填公教人員要填這個忠誠切結書這件事情你不知道基層有反彈嗎非常少數為什麼不改\n806437\t833433\t是 我同意你這句話對國家忠誠問題沒有打折的空間所以到底現在我們的政府是抓到有幾個公教人員是違反國安法 違反反滲透法的填這樣的忠誠切結書就能夠表示不是用抓的啦我沒有我們不是用抓的我們是鼓勵大家要誠實去申報啦因為我們政府就是靠誠實申報\n834898\t862847\t是誠實申報 你的誠實申報辦你就定在法律裡面啊現在相關規定已經有了相關規定有規定在哪裡有規定在哪裡兩岸關係條例沒有要求大家要誠實申報啊所以我的意思是講說這個其實就是涉及到任市長您對於公教人員的地位權益尊嚴的一個態度一個觀念想法\n864042\t892888\t我現在我完全支持我們政府如果說有查到任何的公務人員違反兩岸關係條例違反反滲透法、國安法或是國家經濟保護法要嚴懲但是這是屬於政府機關自己要依法行政依職權去調查而不是叫大家全部都來簽竊結書現在我還只是針對公教人員現在已經擴大到所有的國營事業那下一個階段呢\n893428\t916034\t是不是所有的企業勞工全部大家都要填最後是每個人以後都要自己申報都要填這個調查書我跟委員報告一件事情這就像銀行叫我們要填個人資料保護的相關的先告那個觀念一樣不要把它變成一個汙名化它就是我你就是來碰碰的這樣你也沒有我沒有\n917714\t938182\t我不是說要汙名化我現在意思是講說任市長你要從根本的怎麼樣去維護公教人員的尊嚴權益這個角度去出發就像我說的99.9%的公教人員都會填但是也要去尊重那些為什麼不想填的人\n939002\t953640\t他們就是匪諜嗎?他們就是中共同步人嗎?不想舔的人他可以不舔而且也沒有罰則目前的遊戲規則就是這樣謝謝翁小林委員給你雙方都很完整的論述跟回答謝謝我們現在休息五分鐘\n","txt":"翁小玲委員咨詢完以後我們先休息五分鐘很高興今天聽到主席稱讚我實不敢當立法院美麗又有智慧的女委員非常多我可能還稱不上不過接下來要請任市長\n請人事長不要騙他來的洗禮委員長 你好我看早晚也是實話實說吧是 現在人事長這樣一說害我都不好意思接下來要怎麼問您問題了好 那首先我想就是接續的剛剛王一川委員的問題就是到底公務人員去大陸人事總署之前有沒有規定相關的SOP程序有嗎\n離開台灣的這個遊戲規則是在內政部移民署上有一些相關規定那我們會把這個資料會後再提供給委員參考任市長我剛剛很快的google了一下其實你們人事總書之前就有做過那個PPT啦簡報宣導的什麼公務人員赴大陸偏分成11值等以上跟11值等以下\n對,十一值等以上嘛,受到比較嚴...十值等以上也沒關係,十值等以上就受到比較嚴格的管制十值等以下就比較沒有,就是一般的報備就可以了那現在關鍵點就是說,到底請假,就是利用自己的休假時間去大陸要不要報備?只要去大陸,不管你是用休假還是公假都要申請\n都要申請報備嘛基本上報備的這個概念所以這個是現在就有的規定\n對 那剛剛王議員 王玉川委員他問的這樣的問題顯然是好像沒有做功課所以實際上我們都有在座了我不知道是不是現在已經是有人就違反相關的規定那麼如果說陸委會 移民署或是相關的機關有查到公務人員沒有報備沒有經過許可就去大陸那就把相關處罰案例拿出來講否則的話我覺得這樣刁難任市長我覺得並不公平\n好那接下來我也想請教的這個問題就是人事長您有注意到在3月17號警察院他有做了一個報告就說現在他們有發現高階公務人員辭職又轉任政務官或者是他短期回任到事務官然後之後又再\n復回去擔任政務官的這樣子的一個情況屢見不鮮而在近期他們有發現就是在監察院的報告裡面有發現大概累積地方政府還有地方政府的案例大概有11件\n相關的情況都是政務官短期轉任成務文官再回任到原來的政務職務請問任市長為什麼會有這樣的問題出現我跟委員報告事實上他們這樣操作是\n符合規定的啦符合規定只是說他這一種轉換的時間太短因為像舉一個例子啦像明年有些縣市首長已經兩任任期到了那有些蠻優秀的公務人員本來是11隻等\n他現在當政務官嘛那如果明年年底之後他那個縣市長下來以後這個級數首長沒有繼續留任他只能夠領到11職等啊為了等於退休以後對這些常任文官轉政務官的給他比較好的一些待遇他們會去做轉換的動作但是說這個時間太長大家觀感不好啦\n你如果有半年或者一年大家是覺得還比較OK因為有些是一天或一個禮拜就轉了大家的那種觀感一定是不好的市長您很清楚這樣的問題而且這個\n優秀的事務官去借調去當政務官之後政務官可能因為首長離開或是首長另有考量那政務官又短暫的離開之後又回到事務官或是又再聘這個政務官這涉及到就是公務員他本身的敘心的問題他的資歷年資甚至有些退休公務員已經借齡退休像這個去年防務部次長陳明堂\n就是這樣的一個例子嘛因為他已經要借齡退休了那他又必須要辭職 辭職之後又回去當事務官然後11天之後又再被聘為次長歷史這個問題已經長期都存在在我們的公務體系人事總長這個問題沒有辦法解決嗎\n我認為說你們也失職應該要想辦法去解決這個問題明明就是從多年來這個案例屢見不鮮而且我們現在沒有修法或是人事總處這裡沒有態度要透過怎麼樣行政解釋去讓這些事務官們可以很順利的也銜接他們的年資或他們的續薪等級不要說一定要回到原單位才退休\n我想我這裡大概可以承諾委員我們再來跟前序部來討論看這個事情要如何比較圓滿的來解決因為事實上現在我理解的就有幾個縣市的高階文官現在是政務官可是他的職等就是十一職等\n他在那個機關服務五到六年你看這樣的一個年資對之前他們到地方政府服務的對他們來講是相對不公平好OK那接下來我還要進入到另外一個話題就是剛剛其實有些委員有在問了就軍公教條新法制化那麼也知道就是人事總處這裡已經提出了軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案那麼本席其實已經將\n人事長這邊所提出的這個條例草案有拜讀過你們大概訂定了有七條那裡面有些部分是我感到有疑問的在這邊請教你們這次將在這個條例草案裡面有一個部分就是要未來要成立一個軍公教人員的年度通案待遇調整諮詢會議可是在你們諮詢會議裡面\n所未來規劃能夠成為諮詢委員的部分譬如說除了人事總長您還有副人事長之外中央機關代表七人地方機關代表四人現職公教人員代表四人專家學者四人就這樣子的一個規劃本席好奇的是你地方機關代表四人你怎麼產生現職公教人員代表四人你怎麼產生\n我們現在地方機關我們有22個縣市對 我們會 報告委員我們那個地方政府的部分我們會輪流就是說比如說直轄市跟縣市的部分我們會分別就是每一屆的委員所以22個縣市你要輪流幾次才會輪到目前都是用目前中央教代理審議委員會也是這種機制就是說地方所以這樣的制度是不合理的啊不是嗎\n所以有可能都是先從民進黨政府執政的縣市先輪不會不會像現在桃園跟台東關我們會有直轄市還有一般的16個縣市的像台東的還有桃園的我們一般來講我們會注意到這個橫平性\n是啦我要提醒你們就說是這樣子的安排基本上不是很合理而且是由你們人事總署自己去指定哪些地方機關可以去推派代表除此之外現職公教人員代表四人我們現在台灣有多少的公務員有多少的公教人員\n然後你要怎麼樣去領選這四位公教人員報告委員我們那個縣職公教人員代表是由那個全國工人協會跟中華民國全國教師會各推派兩人因為他們都屬於全國性的一個協會一個團體所以會由這兩個團體分別指派兩位代表來參與那你如果是這樣的話應該是說是不是就應該是說是由這個公教人員的相關組織來推派\n坦白說這公務人員協會它是公會嗎\n他是協會嘛 他不是工會嘛剛剛羅志強委員有講我們現在台灣是一個有全世界的驕傲就是我們的工時很長我這邊要跟任市長講台灣另外一個全世界的驕傲就是我們公教人員被政府管得死死的尤其是公務人員到現在為止全世界沒有公務人員 工會的就只有台灣\n大部分國家都沒有 如果有的話大概英國有而已美國自由之家社就已經說了全世界唯一沒有公務人員公會的國家就是中華民國\n連現在對岸中國大陸他們都有公務人員工會但是我們沒有所以這個就是一個很嚴重的問題啊我們公務人員不能組工會以至於政府要我們簽拒絕簽這個忠誠切結書我們就得簽會不會是定義翻譯的問題\n他不是公會而是協會政府機關我們公務人員都有協會法尤其這一次的協會法也有做一些換官我要說的是我們總是要向西方新進國家學習請您告訴我日本韓國歐盟這些國家美國有哪些國家是沒有公務人員公會的\n我們會後提供給委員我們手上有資料市長你覺得公務人員該不該有工會我個人是覺得現在公務人員協會法你支持公務人員有工會我是支持公務人員協會對於工會的話因為我們還有一些疑慮而且公務人員的公會本身他是公務人員你今天在政府機關服務是有\n按照那個法律的國家法律的義務責任跟一般的工會他的規定不一樣請問一般的勞工不需要依法嗎他不需要遵守現行的教官法律嗎用的法律不一樣用的法律不同啊教師要遵守教師法公務人員要遵守公務人員法就公務人員來講他的雇主就是國家就是政府我講白一點啦我如果是\n我要主公會他的訴求就是要罷工嗎民眾對政府公務人員的罷工大家支持嗎這個問題我覺得是核心的問題要先討論如果民眾對公務人員罷工這個議題有意見的話我覺得這個政策還是先在公務人員缺口裡面來進行其實任市長我覺得您的觀念是落伍的\n產住資工會不是只有罷工包含勞資協商包含權益的福利等等這些都可以現在協會基本上它這個功效不彰而且如果你認為協會就有為什麼不能夠直接就是定在工會法裡面啊你要弄了一個特別的公務人員協會所以這個就是一個根本的觀念我們現在已經進入到21世紀\n我們台灣應該要像我們在尤其是在公務員的體制法制方面要向先進國家學習否則公務人員永遠被政府吃死死管死死不會喔所以是\n所以任市長你不知道最近因為這個你們也配合陸委會要求大家要填公教人員要填這個忠誠切結書這件事情你不知道基層有反彈嗎非常少數為什麼不改\n是 我同意你這句話對國家忠誠問題沒有打折的空間所以到底現在我們的政府是抓到有幾個公教人員是違反國安法 違反反滲透法的填這樣的忠誠切結書就能夠表示不是用抓的啦我沒有我們不是用抓的我們是鼓勵大家要誠實去申報啦因為我們政府就是靠誠實申報\n是誠實申報 你的誠實申報辦你就定在法律裡面啊現在相關規定已經有了相關規定有規定在哪裡有規定在哪裡兩岸關係條例沒有要求大家要誠實申報啊所以我的意思是講說這個其實就是涉及到任市長您對於公教人員的地位權益尊嚴的一個態度一個觀念想法\n我現在我完全支持我們政府如果說有查到任何的公務人員違反兩岸關係條例違反反滲透法、國安法或是國家經濟保護法要嚴懲但是這是屬於政府機關自己要依法行政依職權去調查而不是叫大家全部都來簽竊結書現在我還只是針對公教人員現在已經擴大到所有的國營事業那下一個階段呢\n是不是所有的企業勞工全部大家都要填最後是每個人以後都要自己申報都要填這個調查書我跟委員報告一件事情這就像銀行叫我們要填個人資料保護的相關的先告那個觀念一樣不要把它變成一個汙名化它就是我你就是來碰碰的這樣你也沒有我沒有\n我不是說要汙名化我現在意思是講說任市長你要從根本的怎麼樣去維護公教人員的尊嚴權益這個角度去出發就像我說的99.9%的公教人員都會填但是也要去尊重那些為什麼不想填的人\n他們就是匪諜嗎?他們就是中共同步人嗎?不想舔的人他可以不舔而且也沒有罰則目前的遊戲規則就是這樣謝謝翁小林委員給你雙方都很完整的論述跟回答謝謝我們現在休息五分鐘\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.582 --> 00:21.630\n翁小玲委員咨詢完以後我們先休息五分鐘很高興今天聽到主席稱讚我實不敢當立法院美麗又有智慧的女委員非常多我可能還稱不上不過接下來要請任市長\n\n00:22.570 --> 00:48.015\n請人事長不要騙他來的洗禮委員長你好我看早晚也是實話實說吧是現在人事長這樣一說害我都不好意思接下來要怎麼問您問題了好那首先我想就是接續的剛剛王一川委員的問題就是到底公務人員去大陸人事總署之前有沒有規定相關的SOP程序有嗎\n\n00:52.048 --> 01:14.909\n離開台灣的這個遊戲規則是在內政部移民署上有一些相關規定那我們會把這個資料會後再提供給委員參考任市長我剛剛很快的google了一下其實你們人事總書之前就有做過那個PPT啦簡報宣導的什麼公務人員赴大陸偏分成11值等以上跟11值等以下\n\n01:17.197 --> 01:43.095\n對,十一值等以上嘛,受到比較嚴...十值等以上也沒關係,十值等以上就受到比較嚴格的管制十值等以下就比較沒有,就是一般的報備就可以了那現在關鍵點就是說,到底請假,就是利用自己的休假時間去大陸要不要報備?只要去大陸,不管你是用休假還是公假都要申請\n\n01:43.680 --> 01:49.425\n都要申請報備嘛基本上報備的這個概念所以這個是現在就有的規定\n\n01:50.857 --> 02:15.815\n對那剛剛王議員王玉川委員他問的這樣的問題顯然是好像沒有做功課所以實際上我們都有在座了我不知道是不是現在已經是有人就違反相關的規定那麼如果說陸委會移民署或是相關的機關有查到公務人員沒有報備沒有經過許可就去大陸那就把相關處罰案例拿出來講否則的話我覺得這樣刁難任市長我覺得並不公平\n\n02:19.258 --> 02:40.619\n好那接下來我也想請教的這個問題就是人事長您有注意到在3月17號警察院他有做了一個報告就說現在他們有發現高階公務人員辭職又轉任政務官或者是他短期回任到事務官然後之後又再\n\n02:41.975 --> 03:00.493\n復回去擔任政務官的這樣子的一個情況屢見不鮮而在近期他們有發現就是在監察院的報告裡面有發現大概累積地方政府還有地方政府的案例大概有11件\n\n03:01.914 --> 03:17.779\n相關的情況都是政務官短期轉任成務文官再回任到原來的政務職務請問任市長為什麼會有這樣的問題出現我跟委員報告事實上他們這樣操作是\n\n03:20.220 --> 03:37.962\n符合規定的啦符合規定只是說他這一種轉換的時間太短因為像舉一個例子啦像明年有些縣市首長已經兩任任期到了那有些蠻優秀的公務人員本來是11隻等\n\n03:38.803 --> 04:03.353\n他現在當政務官嘛那如果明年年底之後他那個縣市長下來以後這個級數首長沒有繼續留任他只能夠領到11職等啊為了等於退休以後對這些常任文官轉政務官的給他比較好的一些待遇他們會去做轉換的動作但是說這個時間太長大家觀感不好啦\n\n04:08.615 --> 04:21.132\n你如果有半年或者一年大家是覺得還比較OK因為有些是一天或一個禮拜就轉了大家的那種觀感一定是不好的市長您很清楚這樣的問題而且這個\n\n04:24.035 --> 04:51.660\n優秀的事務官去借調去當政務官之後政務官可能因為首長離開或是首長另有考量那政務官又短暫的離開之後又回到事務官或是又再聘這個政務官這涉及到就是公務員他本身的敘心的問題他的資歷年資甚至有些退休公務員已經借齡退休像這個去年防務部次長陳明堂\n\n04:53.200 --> 05:13.915\n就是這樣的一個例子嘛因為他已經要借齡退休了那他又必須要辭職辭職之後又回去當事務官然後11天之後又再被聘為次長歷史這個問題已經長期都存在在我們的公務體系人事總長這個問題沒有辦法解決嗎\n\n05:16.926 --> 05:43.328\n我認為說你們也失職應該要想辦法去解決這個問題明明就是從多年來這個案例屢見不鮮而且我們現在沒有修法或是人事總處這裡沒有態度要透過怎麼樣行政解釋去讓這些事務官們可以很順利的也銜接他們的年資或他們的續薪等級不要說一定要回到原單位才退休\n\n05:45.623 --> 06:04.478\n我想我這裡大概可以承諾委員我們再來跟前序部來討論看這個事情要如何比較圓滿的來解決因為事實上現在我理解的就有幾個縣市的高階文官現在是政務官可是他的職等就是十一職等\n\n06:05.218 --> 06:32.920\n他在那個機關服務五到六年你看這樣的一個年資對之前他們到地方政府服務的對他們來講是相對不公平好OK那接下來我還要進入到另外一個話題就是剛剛其實有些委員有在問了就軍公教條新法制化那麼也知道就是人事總處這裡已經提出了軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案那麼本席其實已經將\n\n06:34.441 --> 06:57.778\n人事長這邊所提出的這個條例草案有拜讀過你們大概訂定了有七條那裡面有些部分是我感到有疑問的在這邊請教你們這次將在這個條例草案裡面有一個部分就是要未來要成立一個軍公教人員的年度通案待遇調整諮詢會議可是在你們諮詢會議裡面\n\n07:00.197 --> 07:24.043\n所未來規劃能夠成為諮詢委員的部分譬如說除了人事總長您還有副人事長之外中央機關代表七人地方機關代表四人現職公教人員代表四人專家學者四人就這樣子的一個規劃本席好奇的是你地方機關代表四人你怎麼產生現職公教人員代表四人你怎麼產生\n\n07:28.373 --> 07:57.311\n我們現在地方機關我們有22個縣市對我們會報告委員我們那個地方政府的部分我們會輪流就是說比如說直轄市跟縣市的部分我們會分別就是每一屆的委員所以22個縣市你要輪流幾次才會輪到目前都是用目前中央教代理審議委員會也是這種機制就是說地方所以這樣的制度是不合理的啊不是嗎\n\n07:59.303 --> 08:05.247\n所以有可能都是先從民進黨政府執政的縣市先輪不會不會像現在桃園跟台東關我們會有直轄市還有一般的16個縣市的像台東的還有桃園的我們一般來講我們會注意到這個橫平性\n\n08:22.901 --> 08:40.753\n是啦我要提醒你們就說是這樣子的安排基本上不是很合理而且是由你們人事總署自己去指定哪些地方機關可以去推派代表除此之外現職公教人員代表四人我們現在台灣有多少的公務員有多少的公教人員\n\n08:42.932 --> 09:09.708\n然後你要怎麼樣去領選這四位公教人員報告委員我們那個縣職公教人員代表是由那個全國工人協會跟中華民國全國教師會各推派兩人因為他們都屬於全國性的一個協會一個團體所以會由這兩個團體分別指派兩位代表來參與那你如果是這樣的話應該是說是不是就應該是說是由這個公教人員的相關組織來推派\n\n09:13.405 --> 09:17.061\n坦白說這公務人員協會它是公會嗎\n\n09:19.291 --> 09:45.208\n他是協會嘛他不是工會嘛剛剛羅志強委員有講我們現在台灣是一個有全世界的驕傲就是我們的工時很長我這邊要跟任市長講台灣另外一個全世界的驕傲就是我們公教人員被政府管得死死的尤其是公務人員到現在為止全世界沒有公務人員工會的就只有台灣\n\n09:48.106 --> 10:04.543\n大部分國家都沒有如果有的話大概英國有而已美國自由之家社就已經說了全世界唯一沒有公務人員公會的國家就是中華民國\n\n10:09.381 --> 10:22.244\n連現在對岸中國大陸他們都有公務人員工會但是我們沒有所以這個就是一個很嚴重的問題啊我們公務人員不能組工會以至於政府要我們簽拒絕簽這個忠誠切結書我們就得簽會不會是定義翻譯的問題\n\n10:30.665 --> 10:53.555\n他不是公會而是協會政府機關我們公務人員都有協會法尤其這一次的協會法也有做一些換官我要說的是我們總是要向西方新進國家學習請您告訴我日本韓國歐盟這些國家美國有哪些國家是沒有公務人員公會的\n\n10:54.930 --> 11:19.297\n我們會後提供給委員我們手上有資料市長你覺得公務人員該不該有工會我個人是覺得現在公務人員協會法你支持公務人員有工會我是支持公務人員協會對於工會的話因為我們還有一些疑慮而且公務人員的公會本身他是公務人員你今天在政府機關服務是有\n\n11:20.737 --> 11:45.481\n按照那個法律的國家法律的義務責任跟一般的工會他的規定不一樣請問一般的勞工不需要依法嗎他不需要遵守現行的教官法律嗎用的法律不一樣用的法律不同啊教師要遵守教師法公務人員要遵守公務人員法就公務人員來講他的雇主就是國家就是政府我講白一點啦我如果是\n\n11:46.621 --> 12:09.038\n我要主公會他的訴求就是要罷工嗎民眾對政府公務人員的罷工大家支持嗎這個問題我覺得是核心的問題要先討論如果民眾對公務人員罷工這個議題有意見的話我覺得這個政策還是先在公務人員缺口裡面來進行其實任市長我覺得您的觀念是落伍的\n\n12:10.559 --> 12:36.511\n產住資工會不是只有罷工包含勞資協商包含權益的福利等等這些都可以現在協會基本上它這個功效不彰而且如果你認為協會就有為什麼不能夠直接就是定在工會法裡面啊你要弄了一個特別的公務人員協會所以這個就是一個根本的觀念我們現在已經進入到21世紀\n\n12:39.272 --> 12:59.663\n我們台灣應該要像我們在尤其是在公務員的體制法制方面要向先進國家學習否則公務人員永遠被政府吃死死管死死不會喔所以是\n\n13:01.498 --> 13:20.370\n所以任市長你不知道最近因為這個你們也配合陸委會要求大家要填公教人員要填這個忠誠切結書這件事情你不知道基層有反彈嗎非常少數為什麼不改\n\n13:26.437 --> 13:53.433\n是我同意你這句話對國家忠誠問題沒有打折的空間所以到底現在我們的政府是抓到有幾個公教人員是違反國安法違反反滲透法的填這樣的忠誠切結書就能夠表示不是用抓的啦我沒有我們不是用抓的我們是鼓勵大家要誠實去申報啦因為我們政府就是靠誠實申報\n\n13:54.898 --> 14:22.847\n是誠實申報你的誠實申報辦你就定在法律裡面啊現在相關規定已經有了相關規定有規定在哪裡有規定在哪裡兩岸關係條例沒有要求大家要誠實申報啊所以我的意思是講說這個其實就是涉及到任市長您對於公教人員的地位權益尊嚴的一個態度一個觀念想法\n\n14:24.042 --> 14:52.888\n我現在我完全支持我們政府如果說有查到任何的公務人員違反兩岸關係條例違反反滲透法、國安法或是國家經濟保護法要嚴懲但是這是屬於政府機關自己要依法行政依職權去調查而不是叫大家全部都來簽竊結書現在我還只是針對公教人員現在已經擴大到所有的國營事業那下一個階段呢\n\n14:53.428 --> 15:16.034\n是不是所有的企業勞工全部大家都要填最後是每個人以後都要自己申報都要填這個調查書我跟委員報告一件事情這就像銀行叫我們要填個人資料保護的相關的先告那個觀念一樣不要把它變成一個汙名化它就是我你就是來碰碰的這樣你也沒有我沒有\n\n15:17.714 --> 15:38.182\n我不是說要汙名化我現在意思是講說任市長你要從根本的怎麼樣去維護公教人員的尊嚴權益這個角度去出發就像我說的99.9%的公教人員都會填但是也要去尊重那些為什麼不想填的人\n\n15:39.002 --> 15:53.640\n他們就是匪諜嗎?他們就是中共同步人嗎?不想舔的人他可以不舔而且也沒有罰則目前的遊戲規則就是這樣謝謝翁小林委員給你雙方都很完整的論述跟回答謝謝我們現在休息五分鐘\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.582,"end":21.63,"text":"翁小玲委員咨詢完以後我們先休息五分鐘很高興今天聽到主席稱讚我實不敢當立法院美麗又有智慧的女委員非常多我可能還稱不上不過接下來要請任市長"},{"start":22.57,"end":48.015,"text":"請人事長不要騙他來的洗禮委員長 你好我看早晚也是實話實說吧是 現在人事長這樣一說害我都不好意思接下來要怎麼問您問題了好 那首先我想就是接續的剛剛王一川委員的問題就是到底公務人員去大陸人事總署之前有沒有規定相關的SOP程序有嗎"},{"start":52.048,"end":74.909,"text":"離開台灣的這個遊戲規則是在內政部移民署上有一些相關規定那我們會把這個資料會後再提供給委員參考任市長我剛剛很快的google了一下其實你們人事總書之前就有做過那個PPT啦簡報宣導的什麼公務人員赴大陸偏分成11值等以上跟11值等以下"},{"start":77.197,"end":103.095,"text":"對,十一值等以上嘛,受到比較嚴...十值等以上也沒關係,十值等以上就受到比較嚴格的管制十值等以下就比較沒有,就是一般的報備就可以了那現在關鍵點就是說,到底請假,就是利用自己的休假時間去大陸要不要報備?只要去大陸,不管你是用休假還是公假都要申請"},{"start":103.68,"end":109.425,"text":"都要申請報備嘛基本上報備的這個概念所以這個是現在就有的規定"},{"start":110.857,"end":135.815,"text":"對 那剛剛王議員 王玉川委員他問的這樣的問題顯然是好像沒有做功課所以實際上我們都有在座了我不知道是不是現在已經是有人就違反相關的規定那麼如果說陸委會 移民署或是相關的機關有查到公務人員沒有報備沒有經過許可就去大陸那就把相關處罰案例拿出來講否則的話我覺得這樣刁難任市長我覺得並不公平"},{"start":139.258,"end":160.619,"text":"好那接下來我也想請教的這個問題就是人事長您有注意到在3月17號警察院他有做了一個報告就說現在他們有發現高階公務人員辭職又轉任政務官或者是他短期回任到事務官然後之後又再"},{"start":161.975,"end":180.493,"text":"復回去擔任政務官的這樣子的一個情況屢見不鮮而在近期他們有發現就是在監察院的報告裡面有發現大概累積地方政府還有地方政府的案例大概有11件"},{"start":181.914,"end":197.779,"text":"相關的情況都是政務官短期轉任成務文官再回任到原來的政務職務請問任市長為什麼會有這樣的問題出現我跟委員報告事實上他們這樣操作是"},{"start":200.22,"end":217.962,"text":"符合規定的啦符合規定只是說他這一種轉換的時間太短因為像舉一個例子啦像明年有些縣市首長已經兩任任期到了那有些蠻優秀的公務人員本來是11隻等"},{"start":218.803,"end":243.353,"text":"他現在當政務官嘛那如果明年年底之後他那個縣市長下來以後這個級數首長沒有繼續留任他只能夠領到11職等啊為了等於退休以後對這些常任文官轉政務官的給他比較好的一些待遇他們會去做轉換的動作但是說這個時間太長大家觀感不好啦"},{"start":248.615,"end":261.132,"text":"你如果有半年或者一年大家是覺得還比較OK因為有些是一天或一個禮拜就轉了大家的那種觀感一定是不好的市長您很清楚這樣的問題而且這個"},{"start":264.035,"end":291.66,"text":"優秀的事務官去借調去當政務官之後政務官可能因為首長離開或是首長另有考量那政務官又短暫的離開之後又回到事務官或是又再聘這個政務官這涉及到就是公務員他本身的敘心的問題他的資歷年資甚至有些退休公務員已經借齡退休像這個去年防務部次長陳明堂"},{"start":293.2,"end":313.915,"text":"就是這樣的一個例子嘛因為他已經要借齡退休了那他又必須要辭職 辭職之後又回去當事務官然後11天之後又再被聘為次長歷史這個問題已經長期都存在在我們的公務體系人事總長這個問題沒有辦法解決嗎"},{"start":316.926,"end":343.328,"text":"我認為說你們也失職應該要想辦法去解決這個問題明明就是從多年來這個案例屢見不鮮而且我們現在沒有修法或是人事總處這裡沒有態度要透過怎麼樣行政解釋去讓這些事務官們可以很順利的也銜接他們的年資或他們的續薪等級不要說一定要回到原單位才退休"},{"start":345.623,"end":364.478,"text":"我想我這裡大概可以承諾委員我們再來跟前序部來討論看這個事情要如何比較圓滿的來解決因為事實上現在我理解的就有幾個縣市的高階文官現在是政務官可是他的職等就是十一職等"},{"start":365.218,"end":392.92,"text":"他在那個機關服務五到六年你看這樣的一個年資對之前他們到地方政府服務的對他們來講是相對不公平好OK那接下來我還要進入到另外一個話題就是剛剛其實有些委員有在問了就軍公教條新法制化那麼也知道就是人事總處這裡已經提出了軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案那麼本席其實已經將"},{"start":394.441,"end":417.778,"text":"人事長這邊所提出的這個條例草案有拜讀過你們大概訂定了有七條那裡面有些部分是我感到有疑問的在這邊請教你們這次將在這個條例草案裡面有一個部分就是要未來要成立一個軍公教人員的年度通案待遇調整諮詢會議可是在你們諮詢會議裡面"},{"start":420.197,"end":444.043,"text":"所未來規劃能夠成為諮詢委員的部分譬如說除了人事總長您還有副人事長之外中央機關代表七人地方機關代表四人現職公教人員代表四人專家學者四人就這樣子的一個規劃本席好奇的是你地方機關代表四人你怎麼產生現職公教人員代表四人你怎麼產生"},{"start":448.373,"end":477.311,"text":"我們現在地方機關我們有22個縣市對 我們會 報告委員我們那個地方政府的部分我們會輪流就是說比如說直轄市跟縣市的部分我們會分別就是每一屆的委員所以22個縣市你要輪流幾次才會輪到目前都是用目前中央教代理審議委員會也是這種機制就是說地方所以這樣的制度是不合理的啊不是嗎"},{"start":479.303,"end":485.247,"text":"所以有可能都是先從民進黨政府執政的縣市先輪不會不會像現在桃園跟台東關我們會有直轄市還有一般的16個縣市的像台東的還有桃園的我們一般來講我們會注意到這個橫平性"},{"start":502.901,"end":520.753,"text":"是啦我要提醒你們就說是這樣子的安排基本上不是很合理而且是由你們人事總署自己去指定哪些地方機關可以去推派代表除此之外現職公教人員代表四人我們現在台灣有多少的公務員有多少的公教人員"},{"start":522.932,"end":549.708,"text":"然後你要怎麼樣去領選這四位公教人員報告委員我們那個縣職公教人員代表是由那個全國工人協會跟中華民國全國教師會各推派兩人因為他們都屬於全國性的一個協會一個團體所以會由這兩個團體分別指派兩位代表來參與那你如果是這樣的話應該是說是不是就應該是說是由這個公教人員的相關組織來推派"},{"start":553.405,"end":557.061,"text":"坦白說這公務人員協會它是公會嗎"},{"start":559.291,"end":585.208,"text":"他是協會嘛 他不是工會嘛剛剛羅志強委員有講我們現在台灣是一個有全世界的驕傲就是我們的工時很長我這邊要跟任市長講台灣另外一個全世界的驕傲就是我們公教人員被政府管得死死的尤其是公務人員到現在為止全世界沒有公務人員 工會的就只有台灣"},{"start":588.106,"end":604.543,"text":"大部分國家都沒有 如果有的話大概英國有而已美國自由之家社就已經說了全世界唯一沒有公務人員公會的國家就是中華民國"},{"start":609.381,"end":622.244,"text":"連現在對岸中國大陸他們都有公務人員工會但是我們沒有所以這個就是一個很嚴重的問題啊我們公務人員不能組工會以至於政府要我們簽拒絕簽這個忠誠切結書我們就得簽會不會是定義翻譯的問題"},{"start":630.665,"end":653.555,"text":"他不是公會而是協會政府機關我們公務人員都有協會法尤其這一次的協會法也有做一些換官我要說的是我們總是要向西方新進國家學習請您告訴我日本韓國歐盟這些國家美國有哪些國家是沒有公務人員公會的"},{"start":654.93,"end":679.297,"text":"我們會後提供給委員我們手上有資料市長你覺得公務人員該不該有工會我個人是覺得現在公務人員協會法你支持公務人員有工會我是支持公務人員協會對於工會的話因為我們還有一些疑慮而且公務人員的公會本身他是公務人員你今天在政府機關服務是有"},{"start":680.737,"end":705.481,"text":"按照那個法律的國家法律的義務責任跟一般的工會他的規定不一樣請問一般的勞工不需要依法嗎他不需要遵守現行的教官法律嗎用的法律不一樣用的法律不同啊教師要遵守教師法公務人員要遵守公務人員法就公務人員來講他的雇主就是國家就是政府我講白一點啦我如果是"},{"start":706.621,"end":729.038,"text":"我要主公會他的訴求就是要罷工嗎民眾對政府公務人員的罷工大家支持嗎這個問題我覺得是核心的問題要先討論如果民眾對公務人員罷工這個議題有意見的話我覺得這個政策還是先在公務人員缺口裡面來進行其實任市長我覺得您的觀念是落伍的"},{"start":730.559,"end":756.511,"text":"產住資工會不是只有罷工包含勞資協商包含權益的福利等等這些都可以現在協會基本上它這個功效不彰而且如果你認為協會就有為什麼不能夠直接就是定在工會法裡面啊你要弄了一個特別的公務人員協會所以這個就是一個根本的觀念我們現在已經進入到21世紀"},{"start":759.272,"end":779.663,"text":"我們台灣應該要像我們在尤其是在公務員的體制法制方面要向先進國家學習否則公務人員永遠被政府吃死死管死死不會喔所以是"},{"start":781.498,"end":800.37,"text":"所以任市長你不知道最近因為這個你們也配合陸委會要求大家要填公教人員要填這個忠誠切結書這件事情你不知道基層有反彈嗎非常少數為什麼不改"},{"start":806.437,"end":833.433,"text":"是 我同意你這句話對國家忠誠問題沒有打折的空間所以到底現在我們的政府是抓到有幾個公教人員是違反國安法 違反反滲透法的填這樣的忠誠切結書就能夠表示不是用抓的啦我沒有我們不是用抓的我們是鼓勵大家要誠實去申報啦因為我們政府就是靠誠實申報"},{"start":834.898,"end":862.847,"text":"是誠實申報 你的誠實申報辦你就定在法律裡面啊現在相關規定已經有了相關規定有規定在哪裡有規定在哪裡兩岸關係條例沒有要求大家要誠實申報啊所以我的意思是講說這個其實就是涉及到任市長您對於公教人員的地位權益尊嚴的一個態度一個觀念想法"},{"start":864.042,"end":892.888,"text":"我現在我完全支持我們政府如果說有查到任何的公務人員違反兩岸關係條例違反反滲透法、國安法或是國家經濟保護法要嚴懲但是這是屬於政府機關自己要依法行政依職權去調查而不是叫大家全部都來簽竊結書現在我還只是針對公教人員現在已經擴大到所有的國營事業那下一個階段呢"},{"start":893.428,"end":916.034,"text":"是不是所有的企業勞工全部大家都要填最後是每個人以後都要自己申報都要填這個調查書我跟委員報告一件事情這就像銀行叫我們要填個人資料保護的相關的先告那個觀念一樣不要把它變成一個汙名化它就是我你就是來碰碰的這樣你也沒有我沒有"},{"start":917.714,"end":938.182,"text":"我不是說要汙名化我現在意思是講說任市長你要從根本的怎麼樣去維護公教人員的尊嚴權益這個角度去出發就像我說的99.9%的公教人員都會填但是也要去尊重那些為什麼不想填的人"},{"start":939.002,"end":953.64,"text":"他們就是匪諜嗎?他們就是中共同步人嗎?不想舔的人他可以不舔而且也沒有罰則目前的遊戲規則就是這樣謝謝翁小林委員給你雙方都很完整的論述跟回答謝謝我們現在休息五分鐘"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":593,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（10時35分）很高興今天聽到主席稱讚我，實不敢當，立法院美麗又有智慧的女委員非常多，我可能還稱不上。接下來有請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。不要謙虛了，就是你。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。我看召委也是實話實說吧！"],["翁委員曉玲：喔、是，哇！人事長這樣一說，害我都不好意思接下來要怎麼問您問題了。首先，我想接續剛剛王義川委員的問題，到底公務人員去大陸，人事總處之前有沒有規定相關的SOP程序，有嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：離開臺灣的遊戲規則在內政部移民署有一些相關規定，我們會把這個資料會後再提供給委員參考。"],["翁委員曉玲：人事長，我剛剛很快地google了一下，其實你們人事總處之前就有做過PPT簡報宣導，有關公務人員赴大陸篇，分成11職等以上和11職等以下。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們有分兩級……"],["翁委員曉玲：對，11職等以上……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：10職等。"],["翁委員曉玲：10職等以上，沒關係，就是10職等以上受到比較嚴格的管制，10職等以下比較沒有，一般的報備就可以了。現在關鍵點就是到底利用自己的休假時間去大陸要不要報備？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：只要去大陸，不管你是用休假還是公假都要申請。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，都要申請報備，基本上就是報備的概念，所以這個是現在就有的規定。剛剛王義川委員問這樣的問題顯然好像沒有做功課，所以實際上我們都有在做了，我不知道是不是現在已經有人違反相關規定？如果陸委會、移民署或是相關機關有查到公務人員沒有報備、沒有經過許可就去大陸，那就把相關處罰案例拿出來講，否則的話，我覺得這樣刁難人事長並不公平。","接下來我想請教的問題就是，人事長，您有注意到在3月17號監察院做了一個報告，現在他們有發現高階公務人員辭職又轉任政務官或者是他短期回任到事務官，之後又再回去擔任政務官，這樣的情況屢見不鮮。近期在監察院的報告裡面也發現，累積地方政府和中央政府的案例大概有11件，相關的情況都是政務官短期轉任常務文官，再回任到原來的政務職務。請問人事長，為什麼會有這樣的問題出現？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，事實上，他們這樣操作是符合規定的，只是他這種轉換的時間太短，舉一個例子，像明年有些縣市首長已經兩任任期到了，有些蠻優秀的公務人員本來是11職等，他現在當政務官，如果明年年底那個縣市長下來以後，這個局處首長沒有繼續留任，他只能夠領到11職等，等於退休以後，為了對這些常任文官轉政務官的，給他一些比較好的待遇，他們會去做轉換的動作，但是說真的，時間太短，大家觀感不好啦！"],["翁委員曉玲：是的，所以人事長……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：你如果有半年或者一年，whatever，大家覺得還比較OK！因為有些是一天或一個禮拜就轉了，大家的觀感一定是不好的。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，人事長，您很清楚這樣的問題，而且優秀的事務官借調去當政務官，之後政務官可能因為首長離開或是首長另有考量，政務官離開之後又回到事務官，或是又再聘為政務官，這涉及到公務員本身敘薪的問題，包括他的資歷、年資，甚至有些退休公務員已經屆齡退休，像去年法務部次長陳明堂就是這樣的例子，因為他已經要屆齡退休，他又必須要辭職，辭職之後又回去當事務官，然後11天之後又再被聘為次長，類似這樣的問題已經長期都存在我們的公務體系。請問人事總長，這個問題沒有辦法解決嗎？我認為你們也失職，應該要想辦法去解決這個問題，明明多年來這樣的案例屢見不鮮，而且我們現在沒有修法，或是人事總處也沒有態度要透過怎麼樣的行政解釋，讓這些事務官們可以很順利地銜接他們的年資或他們的敘薪等級，不要說一定要回到原單位才退休。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我想我在這裡可以承諾委員我們會再跟銓敘部討論看看這件事情要如何比較圓滿地解決，因為事實上……"],["翁委員曉玲：這是陷公務員於不義嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：就我理解有幾個縣市的高階文官現在是政務官，可是他的職等就是十一職等。"],["翁委員曉玲：是啊，這也是很不公平的事啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：他在機關服務五到六年，你看這樣的年資對於之前他們到地方政府服務的部分，對他們來講是相對不公平啦！"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來我要進入另外一個話題，其實剛剛有些委員在問軍公教調薪法制化，我們也知道人事總處已經提出軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案，本席其實已經拜讀過人事長所提出的條例草案，你們訂定了7條，裡面有些部分是我感到有疑問的，想在這邊請教。這次在這個條例草案裡面，有一個部分是未來要成立軍公教人員年度通案待遇調整諮詢會議，在你們的諮詢會議裡面，未來規劃能夠成為諮詢委員的部分，譬如除了人事總長及副人事長之外，中央機關代表7人，地方機關代表7人，現職公教人員代表4人，專家學者4人。就這樣子的規劃，本席好奇的是，地方機關代表4人是怎麼產生？現職公教人員代表4人是怎麼產生？就地方機關而言，現在我們有22個縣市。"],["林處長錦慧：報告委員，有關地方政府的部分，我們會輪流，譬如直轄市跟縣市的部分我們會分別，就是每一屆的委員我們會……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以22個縣市要輪流幾次才會輪到？"],["林處長錦慧：目前軍公教待遇審議委員會也是這種機制，就是說地方……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以這樣的制度是不合理的啊！不是嗎？有可能都是先從民進黨政府執政的縣市先輪啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不會、不會，我們會有直轄市的，還有一般16個縣市的，像臺東還有桃園，一般來講我們會注意到衡平性。"],["翁委員曉玲：我要提醒你們的是，這樣子的安排基本上不是很合理，而且是由人事總處自行指定哪些地方機關可以推派代表。除此之外，現職公教人員代表4人，現在臺灣有多少公教人員？你要怎麼樣遴選這4位公教人員？"],["林處長錦慧：報告委員，現職公教人員代表是由全國公務人員協會及中華民國全國教師會各推派兩人，因為他們都是屬於全國性的協會團體，所以會由這兩個團體分別指派兩位代表來參與。"],["翁委員曉玲：如果是這樣的話，應該說是由公教人員相關組織來推派，是不是？坦白說，公務人員協會是工會嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：它是協會。"],["翁委員曉玲：它是協會，它不是工會嘛！剛剛羅智強委員有講，現在臺灣成為全世界的驕傲就是我們的工時很長，我在這邊要跟人事長講，臺灣另外一個全世界的驕傲就是我們公教人員被政府管得死死的，尤其是公務人員，到現在為止，全世界沒有公務人員工會的就只有臺灣，請問……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有啦，大部分國家都沒有啊！如果有的話，大概只有英國有而已，其他大部分都沒有，包括美國、法國、日本也都沒有啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：美國自由之家已經說了，全世界唯一沒有公務人員工會的國家就是中華民國。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得這個訊息……"],["翁委員曉玲：現在連對岸的中國大陸都有公務人員工會，但是我們沒有，所以這是一個很嚴重的問題啊！我們的公務人員不能組工會，以致於政府要他們簽忠誠切結書他們就得簽，然後他們不能主張權益……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，會不會是翻譯的問題？它不是工會，而是協會，我們政府機關的公務人員都有協會法，尤其這一次的協會法也有做一些放寬。"],["翁委員曉玲：我們總是要向西方先進國家學習，請您告訴我，日本、韓國、歐盟、美國這些國家當中，有哪些國家是沒有公務人員工會的？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們會後提供給委員，我們手上有資料。"],["翁委員曉玲：人事長，你覺得公務人員該不該有工會？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我個人是覺得現在公務人員協會法……"],["翁委員曉玲：你支不支持公務人員要有工會？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我是支持公務人員協會，對於工會的話，因為我們還有一些疑慮，而且他本身是公務人員，今天在政府機關服務，負有國家法律的義務責任，跟一般的工會規定不一樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：請問一般的勞工不需要依法嗎？他不用遵守現行的相關法律嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：用的法律不一樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：是啊，用的法律不同啊！教師要遵守教師法，公務人員要遵守公務人員法，就公務人員來講，他的雇主就是國家、就是政府……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我講白一點，如果要組工會，他的訴求就是要罷工嗎？民眾對於政府公務人員罷工會支持嗎？我覺得這個核心的問題要先討論，如果民眾對公務人員罷工議題有意見的話，我覺得這個政策還是先在公務人員協會法裡面來執行。"],["翁委員曉玲：人事長，其實我覺得您的觀念是落伍的，組織工會不是只有罷工，包含勞資協商、包含權益、福利等等，這些都可以……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：協會法都有……"],["翁委員曉玲：現在協會基本上功效不彰，而且如果你認為協會就有，為什麼不能夠直接訂在工會法裡面？你又弄了一個特別的公務人員協會……所以這是一個根本的觀念。現在已經進入到21世紀，尤其是在公務員的體制、法制方面，我們要向先進國家學習，否則公務人員永遠被政府吃死死、管死死。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對不起，我們現在不會被政府吃死死……"],["翁委員曉玲：不會喔？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們都會傾聽公務人員的聲音，怎麼會吃死死的呢？"],["翁委員曉玲：人事長，最近因為你們也配合陸委會，要求大家要填公教人員忠誠切結書，這件事情你不知道基層有反彈嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：非常少數，我覺得這是一個核心問題……"],["翁委員曉玲：非常少數？為什麼不改？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對國家忠誠的問題是沒有打折的空間。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，我同意你這句話，對國家忠誠的問題沒有打折的空間，所以現在我們的政府到底抓到有幾個公教人員是違反國安法、違反反滲透法的？填這樣的忠誠切結書就能夠表示……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不是用抓的啦！我們不是用抓的，我們是鼓勵大家要誠實申報啦！因為我們政府就是靠這些公教人員……"],["翁委員曉玲：是誠實申報，不然你就把誠實申報定在法律裡面啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：現在相關規定已經有了。"],["翁委員曉玲：相關規定有規定在哪裡？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：兩岸關係條例……"],["翁委員曉玲：兩岸關係條例沒有要求大家要誠實申報啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：就像……"],["翁委員曉玲：我的意思是說，其實這涉及到人事長您對於公教人員的地位、權益、尊嚴的態度、觀念與想法，我完全支持政府如果有查到任何公務人員違反兩岸關係條例、反滲透法、國安法或是國家機密保護法要嚴懲，但這屬於政府機關自己要依法行政、依職權去調查，而不是叫大家全部都來簽切結書！現在還不只是針對公教人員，而是已經擴大到所有國營事業，那下一個階段呢？是不是所有的企業、勞工，大家全部都要填？最後是每個人以後都要自己申報、都要填這個調查書？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告一件事情，這個就像銀行叫我們要填個人資料保護相關宣告的那個觀念一樣，不要把它變成污名化啦！它就是你來簽一簽，你也沒有……"],["翁委員曉玲：我不是說要污名化……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在的意思是講說，人事長，你要從根本的、怎麼樣去維護公教人員的尊嚴、權益這個角度出發。就像我說的，99.9%的公教人員都會填，但是也要去尊重那些為什麼不想填的人，他們就是匪諜嗎？他們就是中共同路人嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不想填的人可以不填，而且也沒有罰責，目前的遊戲規則就是這樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員。雙方都很完整地論述跟回答。","謝謝，我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時51分）","繼續開會（11時）"],["主席（陳委員培瑜代）：好，現在繼續開會。","請莊瑞雄委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林倩綺","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈發惠","羅智強","王義川","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","吳宗憲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00001"}}}