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\"會有不一樣的安排好那意思就是說我們目前你的態度是支持的而且我們相關的做法有相關的公文或是行政命令下去了嗎讓各個機關知道說不是只有您在這邊宣示而是我們真的有這個可能性可是我剛剛已經說了它是配套那如果在人力的調度上有困難我們要怎麼來積極面對我覺得這是後續要討論的這不是我們今天在這邊討論完但是我就是提出一個提醒好\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 473.936, \"end\": 474.077, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 474.077, \"end\": 474.197, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 474.197, \"end\": 474.397, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 474.397, \"end\": 474.517, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 474.517, \"end\": 474.637, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"排\", \"start\": 474.637, \"end\": 474.777, \"score\": 0.782}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 474.777, \"end\": 475.157, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 475.157, \"end\": 475.398, \"score\": 0.709}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 475.398, \"end\": 475.578, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 475.578, \"end\": 475.698, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 475.698, 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585.579, \"text\": \"那接下來我們來看我還有40秒好再來我們談到關於行政法人的評鑑行政法人的評鑑當然目前的KPI是法人自己訂然後監督機關來審核然後評鑑小組來評分那我們看到其實常常有很多的法人其實大家對於他們的服務跟表現狀態是有些疑慮的以我過去在教委我們看到國訓中心裡面常常很多讓人家冒頭冒問號這樣子我想問一下這幾年的評鑑狀況\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 561.721, \"end\": 561.981, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 561.981, \"end\": 562.101, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 562.101, \"end\": 562.362, \"score\": 0.638}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 562.362, \"end\": 562.562, \"score\": 0.564}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 562.562, \"end\": 562.982, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 562.982, \"end\": 563.202, \"score\": 0.695}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 563.202, \"end\": 564.563, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"秒\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 564.563, \"end\": 564.924, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 564.924, \"end\": 565.184, \"score\": 0.64}, 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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,496 --> 00:00:25,962\n好謝謝主席接下來有請人事長有請我們人事長委員長好人事長早安我們來看一下我要先肯定我們在去年12月13號人事總署這邊啟動了職場霸凌案件通報平台這個平台已經開始運作了我們看到資料從12月13號\n\n2\n00:00:27,202 --> 00:00:41,392\n到2月28號目前呢收件數327在處理的138撤案的時期已經結案的172所以呢最後霸凌調查成立的目前看到的數字是1.7%\n\n3\n00:00:43,473 --> 00:00:59,027\n那我當然不是這個霸凌處理或者是討論的專家但是我想要跟任市長分享一個可能性我們來討論看看我相信很多人看到這個1.7%只有三個案子成立我覺得很多人一定會滿頭問號\n\n4\n00:01:02,669 --> 00:01:17,536\n會認為這個比例好像有一點不是太合乎我們一般人日常生活經驗中的了解更何況是非常多行政機關大家所擔心的問題那我們來看一下如果我們來看一個個案來下一張\n\n5\n00:01:19,597 --> 00:01:41,447\n這邊這個案子我當然就不點名是哪一個單位不過因為它是發生在人事單位的這個報告裡面是這樣寫的他說呢另有冷嘲熱諷以及咆哮的行為可是呢就這個提出來的個案它所能夠提供的證據只能證明被申訴人偶有上開行為\n\n6\n00:01:42,688 --> 00:02:00,783\n就是好像看不出那個頻率跟次數有多麼密集也不是很確定到底是不是很多很多這樣子所以決定不成立這個案子應該是不成立我再次強調我尊重專業的認定跟判斷那可是我要提醒人是這樣我覺得這真的\n\n7\n00:02:02,765 --> 00:02:21,944\n跟我們一般的認知除了從數字端剛我說的數字端到這個報告但我想要分享另外一個我們之前在教育部也處理非常多校園裡面師對生生對生甚至是生對師都有可能的相關霸凌的\n\n8\n00:02:23,706 --> 00:02:52,405\n邏輯我們是這樣想的本來以前在校園裡面我們來看一下下一張這是你們目前給我們的流程如果我們參考校園裡面以前在校園裡面我們確實也有遇到過這種到底情況如何認定誰說了算頻率要多少次數要多少或者是那個樣態要長成什麼樣子我們才可以被認定為大齡成立這個對孩子的權益或是對在校園裡面老師的權益對行政委員權益非常的重要\n\n9\n00:02:53,025 --> 00:03:14,972\n後來呢在霸凌防制準則裡面呢教育部潘部長在卸任前他們整個學特斯結合非常多專家學者會議開了非常非常多的會也聽了校園裡面的意見也聽了兒少代表的意見大家後來決定是只要有單獨一次\n\n10\n00:03:16,212 --> 00:03:37,653\n有人提出申訴就必須要開相關的委員會積極的討論跟去判斷這件事情以前是如果只有一次單次事件他們連開都不開會那開會之後要不要成立我們當然交由專業的委員會那我們回到委員會的機制委員會的機制他們甚至後來因為學校裡面師師相護的狀態其實\n\n11\n00:03:42,301 --> 00:04:00,667\n很常聽見當然不是全台灣的老師都這樣可是因為有非常多的案件像之前很嚴重的封中後來小孩是自殺墜樓這個事件讓我們更努力去想我們如何避免實施相互所以後來教育部他們就決定成立一個外部人才資料庫\n\n12\n00:04:01,627 --> 00:04:19,461\n也就是他們受過一些受過專業訓練的人被教育部放在這個人才資料庫裡面所以如果學校要啟動相關霸凌事件調查的時候他就必須要去這個資料庫裡面找人或者是有相關的機制也就是他不是只是學校裡面去找\n\n13\n00:04:20,442 --> 00:04:46,273\n那確保這個公平性那不管是加害者或者是被申訴的人被申訴的人就是加害者或者是受害者大家都會覺得這樣感覺公平一點公開一點透明一點大家比較願意信任這個機制站在保護為上我非常感謝教育部做這個改革但因為我剛剛已經先說我非常感謝人事總處先開啟了這個通報平台但是我在想我們可不可以後續在這個平台\n\n14\n00:04:47,473 --> 00:05:14,150\n後續其他的配套上我們可以更細緻包含我剛說的可不可以有人才資料庫或者是相關的時間點或者是這個如何認定這件事情我認為平台是良善的第一步我們後續可不可以為這些行政機關裡面的人再多做一點多做一點讓所有這些還願意留在行政機關為民服務的公務員不管他是基層不管他是長官不管他是階級比較大的\n\n15\n00:05:14,690 --> 00:05:38,586\n他們都可以好好安心的工作為人民服務我想要問一下董事長你的意見這問題裡面大概有兩個部分一個人才資料庫的問題事實上前陣子我到一些縣市去他們我們人事主管有跟我們反映因為那些人要找大概就是心理師或者精神醫師或者律師事實上我有建議他們\n\n16\n00:05:40,227 --> 00:06:07,466\n就是建一個類似人才資料庫的概念因為現在的人說這個台北分他都被各個機關booking很忙所以上一年12月去的時候他說有些是要輪到今年的4月那個當事人才有空所以剛才委員提的那個人才資料庫的概念是非常好讓這一些有需要的機關學校他可以從人才資料庫有更完整的選材的\n\n17\n00:06:09,707 --> 00:06:38,566\n各位因為我們現在的一個參議的外部委員基本上要超過一半所以要把這些人全部都找齊這個時間有時候也坦白講不方便所以有些機關他們開這個調查會的時候有時候是早上8點就開始開有些是中午有些是要當晚或晚上來開剛才委員這一個資料我想我們會去補充這方面的資料\n\n18\n00:06:39,687 --> 00:07:03,093\n就是處理的類似QA的部分我們也會把它放進來因為每一個機關的承辦人員因為經驗的問題或者判斷的問題有時候該怎麼處理我們會把過去累積的一個經驗也放在這個平台讓這些同仁可以進來reference有一個比較完整的QA有一點類似知識庫的這個概念\n\n19\n00:07:03,353 --> 00:07:21,507\n好太好了我很開心聽到人士長正向的回應還有一個我覺得可能很細緻但是可能對於被害人會有很重要的保護作用跟宣示作用代表我們行政院對這件事情就是有態度的也就是目前在教育端的做法是會對於當事人有調離限制的配套設計我們有機會嗎\n\n20\n00:07:24,669 --> 00:07:52,836\n我們目前就是已經在這樣做了目前已經這樣做了嗎以人種的我們的做法是這樣所以我們是有一個公文下去希望所有行政機關都用這個配套但是我們這樣人因為他那個霸凌的那個嚴重程度不大一樣而且他要安排他的職缺的問題有些是職缺的安排有些霸凌的狀況當事人的一個scenario不一樣所以他們會有不一樣的一個安排\n\n21\n00:07:53,936 --> 00:08:19,538\n會有不一樣的安排好那意思就是說我們目前你的態度是支持的而且我們相關的做法有相關的公文或是行政命令下去了嗎讓各個機關知道說不是只有您在這邊宣示而是我們真的有這個可能性可是我剛剛已經說了它是配套那如果在人力的調度上有困難我們要怎麼來積極面對我覺得這是後續要討論的這不是我們今天在這邊討論完但是我就是提出一個提醒好\n\n22\n00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:48,041\n我們再跟同仁討論看看就是要如何來協助各個人事機關如果遇到有霸凌的那個把他的普及權去做調離限職的應該就是很清楚就叫做調離限職的配套設計好最後一個如果我是被害人然後我對於相關的處理結果我認為我不滿意我不接受那有遇到調查爭議的時候我們上級機關介入調查申訴機制目前這部分有開啟了嗎\n\n23\n00:08:49,358 --> 00:08:55,445\n有有有因為我們已經有開啟了所以一樣嘛也是你知道但是我們所有的行政機關都知道\n\n24\n00:08:56,348 --> 00:09:20,621\n有的我們有發文過你要上級機關要介入因為現在像有些部會就已經上級在介入直接協助好那這個部分我們也會再跟任總這邊釐清我覺得確實如果我們有這麼多積極的作為包含你剛剛也已經承諾了人才資料庫你也很認同我們就往這個方向一起來努力我們讓更多所有這些為大家服務的公務員真的覺得政府有跟大家站在一起好不好好\n\n25\n00:09:21,721 --> 00:09:45,579\n那接下來我們來看我還有40秒好再來我們談到關於行政法人的評鑑行政法人的評鑑當然目前的KPI是法人自己訂然後監督機關來審核然後評鑑小組來評分那我們看到其實常常有很多的法人其實大家對於他們的服務跟表現狀態是有些疑慮的以我過去在教委我們看到國訓中心裡面常常很多讓人家冒頭冒問號這樣子我想問一下這幾年的評鑑狀況\n\n26\n00:09:51,644 --> 00:10:15,527\n或者是人種這邊有沒有什麼可能性來談這個事情當然我知道權責跟相關的分工可是我們可不可以更積極來面對這個事情基本上我跟委員報告這些都有它的主管機關像文化部的教育部那我們從行政法人的一個主管機關我們事實上也有在努力\n\n27\n00:10:17,148 --> 00:10:30,216\n第一個吹你的問題啦,我說真的第一個吹你的問題第二個是awareness的問題我們希望說讓更多人了解行政法人他的角色的扮演他應該怎麼處理,坦白講有\n\n28\n00:10:32,014 --> 00:10:56,430\n我承認我們還有努力的空間所以我們確實認同還有一定的機制跟相關的可能性去調整他們的awareness也好你剛說他們的awareness或者是他們的training確實都需要人總這邊更積極的不要說是插手啦而是有一些機制去讓這件事情變得更好對不對不要讓大家覺得我們好像就是自己給自己打分數啦\n\n29\n00:10:58,590 --> 00:11:05,884\n這有一點類似我們在訂一個guideline給他們然後也必須要去practice所以這個guideline是有機會在多久以內訂出來?\n\n30\n00:11:08,041 --> 00:11:21,379\n目前都有可是我覺得就是剛才我跟委員報告的就是awareness跟training的部分我們還要再加強那相關的機制我們今天就不在這裡討論我們辦公室之後再跟你們實質開會討論我們會把一些相關資料先送委員辦公室上考好謝謝人長好謝謝陳培宇陳委員接下來\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1496\t25962\t好 謝謝主席接下來有請人事長有請我們人事長委員長好 人事長早安我們來看一下我要先肯定我們在去年12月13號人事總署這邊啟動了職場霸凌案件通報平台這個平台已經開始運作了我們看到資料從12月13號\n27202\t41392\t到2月28號目前呢收件數327在處理的138撤案的時期已經結案的172所以呢最後霸凌調查成立的目前看到的數字是1.7%\n43473\t59027\t那我當然不是這個霸凌處理或者是討論的專家但是我想要跟任市長分享一個可能性我們來討論看看我相信很多人看到這個1.7%只有三個案子成立我覺得很多人一定會滿頭問號\n62669\t77536\t會認為這個比例好像有一點不是太合乎我們一般人日常生活經驗中的了解更何況是非常多行政機關大家所擔心的問題那我們來看一下如果我們來看一個個案來下一張\n79597\t101447\t這邊這個案子我當然就不點名是哪一個單位不過因為它是發生在人事單位的這個報告裡面是這樣寫的他說呢另有冷嘲熱諷以及咆哮的行為可是呢就這個提出來的個案它所能夠提供的證據只能證明被申訴人偶有上開行為\n102688\t120783\t就是好像看不出那個頻率跟次數有多麼密集也不是很確定到底是不是很多很多這樣子所以決定不成立這個案子應該是不成立我再次強調我尊重專業的認定跟判斷那可是我要提醒人是這樣我覺得這真的\n122765\t141944\t跟我們一般的認知除了從數字端剛我說的數字端到這個報告但我想要分享另外一個我們之前在教育部也處理非常多校園裡面師對生 生對生甚至是生對師都有可能的相關霸凌的\n143706\t172405\t邏輯我們是這樣想的本來以前在校園裡面我們來看一下下一張這是你們目前給我們的流程如果我們參考校園裡面以前在校園裡面我們確實也有遇到過這種到底情況如何認定誰說了算頻率要多少次數要多少或者是那個樣態要長成什麼樣子我們才可以被認定為大齡成立這個對孩子的權益或是對在校園裡面老師的權益對行政委員權益非常的重要\n173025\t194972\t後來呢在霸凌防制準則裡面呢教育部潘部長在卸任前他們整個學特斯結合非常多專家學者會議開了非常非常多的會也聽了校園裡面的意見也聽了兒少代表的意見大家後來決定是只要有單獨一次\n196212\t217653\t有人提出申訴就必須要開相關的委員會積極的討論跟去判斷這件事情以前是如果只有一次單次事件他們連開都不開會那開會之後要不要成立我們當然交由專業的委員會那我們回到委員會的機制委員會的機制他們甚至後來因為學校裡面師師相護的狀態其實\n222301\t240667\t很常聽見當然不是全台灣的老師都這樣可是因為有非常多的案件像之前很嚴重的封中後來小孩是自殺墜樓這個事件讓我們更努力去想我們如何避免實施相互所以後來教育部他們就決定成立一個外部人才資料庫\n241627\t259461\t也就是他們受過一些受過專業訓練的人被教育部放在這個人才資料庫裡面所以如果學校要啟動相關霸凌事件調查的時候他就必須要去這個資料庫裡面找人或者是有相關的機制也就是他不是只是學校裡面去找\n260442\t286273\t那確保這個公平性那不管是加害者或者是被申訴的人被申訴的人就是加害者或者是受害者大家都會覺得這樣感覺公平一點公開一點透明一點大家比較願意信任這個機制站在保護為上我非常感謝教育部做這個改革但因為我剛剛已經先說我非常感謝人事總處先開啟了這個通報平台但是我在想我們可不可以後續在這個平台\n287473\t314150\t後續其他的配套上我們可以更細緻包含我剛說的可不可以有人才資料庫或者是相關的時間點或者是這個如何認定這件事情我認為平台是良善的第一步我們後續可不可以為這些行政機關裡面的人再多做一點 多做一點讓所有這些還願意留在行政機關為民服務的公務員不管他是基層 不管他是長官不管他是階級比較大的\n314690\t338586\t他們都可以好好安心的工作為人民服務我想要問一下董事長你的意見這問題裡面大概有兩個部分一個人才資料庫的問題事實上前陣子我到一些縣市去他們我們人事主管有跟我們反映因為那些人要找大概就是心理師或者精神醫師或者律師事實上我有建議他們\n340227\t367466\t就是建一個類似人才資料庫的概念因為現在的人說這個台北分他都被各個機關booking很忙所以上一年12月去的時候他說有些是要輪到今年的4月那個當事人才有空所以剛才委員提的那個人才資料庫的概念是非常好讓這一些有需要的機關學校他可以從人才資料庫有更完整的選材的\n369707\t398566\t各位因為我們現在的一個參議的外部委員基本上要超過一半所以要把這些人全部都找齊這個時間有時候也坦白講不方便所以有些機關他們開這個調查會的時候有時候是早上8點就開始開有些是中午有些是要當晚或晚上來開剛才委員這一個資料我想我們會去補充這方面的資料\n399687\t423093\t就是處理的類似QA的部分我們也會把它放進來因為每一個機關的承辦人員因為經驗的問題或者判斷的問題有時候該怎麼處理我們會把過去累積的一個經驗也放在這個平台讓這些同仁可以進來reference有一個比較完整的QA有一點類似知識庫的這個概念\n423353\t441507\t好 太好了我很開心聽到人士長正向的回應還有一個我覺得可能很細緻但是可能對於被害人會有很重要的保護作用跟宣示作用代表我們行政院對這件事情就是有態度的也就是目前在教育端的做法是會對於當事人有調離限制的配套設計我們有機會嗎\n444669\t472836\t我們目前就是已經在這樣做了目前已經這樣做了嗎以人種的我們的做法是這樣所以我們是有一個公文下去希望所有行政機關都用這個配套但是我們這樣人因為他那個霸凌的那個嚴重程度不大一樣而且他要安排他的職缺的問題有些是職缺的安排有些霸凌的狀況當事人的一個scenario不一樣所以他們會有不一樣的一個安排\n473936\t499538\t會有不一樣的安排好那意思就是說我們目前你的態度是支持的而且我們相關的做法有相關的公文或是行政命令下去了嗎讓各個機關知道說不是只有您在這邊宣示而是我們真的有這個可能性可是我剛剛已經說了它是配套那如果在人力的調度上有困難我們要怎麼來積極面對我覺得這是後續要討論的這不是我們今天在這邊討論完但是我就是提出一個提醒好\n501040\t528041\t我們再跟同仁討論看看就是要如何來協助各個人事機關如果遇到有霸凌的那個把他的普及權去做調離限職的應該就是很清楚就叫做調離限職的配套設計好最後一個如果我是被害人然後我對於相關的處理結果我認為我不滿意我不接受那有遇到調查爭議的時候我們上級機關介入調查申訴機制目前這部分有開啟了嗎\n529358\t535445\t有有有 因為我們已經有開啟了所以一樣嘛 也是你知道但是我們所有的行政機關都知道\n536348\t560621\t有的我們有發文過你要上級機關要介入因為現在像有些部會就已經上級在介入直接協助好那這個部分我們也會再跟任總這邊釐清我覺得確實如果我們有這麼多積極的作為包含你剛剛也已經承諾了人才資料庫你也很認同我們就往這個方向一起來努力我們讓更多所有這些為大家服務的公務員真的覺得政府有跟大家站在一起好不好好\n561721\t585579\t那接下來我們來看我還有40秒好再來我們談到關於行政法人的評鑑行政法人的評鑑當然目前的KPI是法人自己訂然後監督機關來審核然後評鑑小組來評分那我們看到其實常常有很多的法人其實大家對於他們的服務跟表現狀態是有些疑慮的以我過去在教委我們看到國訓中心裡面常常很多讓人家冒頭冒問號這樣子我想問一下這幾年的評鑑狀況\n591644\t615527\t或者是人種這邊有沒有什麼可能性來談這個事情當然我知道權責跟相關的分工可是我們可不可以更積極來面對這個事情基本上我跟委員報告這些都有它的主管機關像文化部的教育部那我們從行政法人的一個主管機關我們事實上也有在努力\n617148\t630216\t第一個吹你的問題啦,我說真的第一個吹你的問題第二個是awareness的問題我們希望說讓更多人了解行政法人他的角色的扮演他應該怎麼處理,坦白講有\n632014\t656430\t我承認我們還有努力的空間所以我們確實認同還有一定的機制跟相關的可能性去調整他們的awareness也好你剛說他們的awareness或者是他們的training確實都需要人總這邊更積極的不要說是插手啦而是有一些機制去讓這件事情變得更好對不對不要讓大家覺得我們好像就是自己給自己打分數啦\n658590\t665884\t這有一點類似我們在訂一個guideline給他們然後也必須要去practice所以這個guideline是有機會在多久以內訂出來?\n668041\t681379\t目前都有 可是我覺得就是剛才我跟委員報告的就是 awareness 跟 training 的部分我們還要再加強那相關的機制我們今天就不在這裡討論我們辦公室之後再跟你們實質開會討論我們會把一些相關資料先送委員辦公室上考好 謝謝人長好 謝謝陳培宇陳委員 接下來\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席接下來有請人事長有請我們人事長委員長好 人事長早安我們來看一下我要先肯定我們在去年12月13號人事總署這邊啟動了職場霸凌案件通報平台這個平台已經開始運作了我們看到資料從12月13號\n到2月28號目前呢收件數327在處理的138撤案的時期已經結案的172所以呢最後霸凌調查成立的目前看到的數字是1.7%\n那我當然不是這個霸凌處理或者是討論的專家但是我想要跟任市長分享一個可能性我們來討論看看我相信很多人看到這個1.7%只有三個案子成立我覺得很多人一定會滿頭問號\n會認為這個比例好像有一點不是太合乎我們一般人日常生活經驗中的了解更何況是非常多行政機關大家所擔心的問題那我們來看一下如果我們來看一個個案來下一張\n這邊這個案子我當然就不點名是哪一個單位不過因為它是發生在人事單位的這個報告裡面是這樣寫的他說呢另有冷嘲熱諷以及咆哮的行為可是呢就這個提出來的個案它所能夠提供的證據只能證明被申訴人偶有上開行為\n就是好像看不出那個頻率跟次數有多麼密集也不是很確定到底是不是很多很多這樣子所以決定不成立這個案子應該是不成立我再次強調我尊重專業的認定跟判斷那可是我要提醒人是這樣我覺得這真的\n跟我們一般的認知除了從數字端剛我說的數字端到這個報告但我想要分享另外一個我們之前在教育部也處理非常多校園裡面師對生 生對生甚至是生對師都有可能的相關霸凌的\n邏輯我們是這樣想的本來以前在校園裡面我們來看一下下一張這是你們目前給我們的流程如果我們參考校園裡面以前在校園裡面我們確實也有遇到過這種到底情況如何認定誰說了算頻率要多少次數要多少或者是那個樣態要長成什麼樣子我們才可以被認定為大齡成立這個對孩子的權益或是對在校園裡面老師的權益對行政委員權益非常的重要\n後來呢在霸凌防制準則裡面呢教育部潘部長在卸任前他們整個學特斯結合非常多專家學者會議開了非常非常多的會也聽了校園裡面的意見也聽了兒少代表的意見大家後來決定是只要有單獨一次\n有人提出申訴就必須要開相關的委員會積極的討論跟去判斷這件事情以前是如果只有一次單次事件他們連開都不開會那開會之後要不要成立我們當然交由專業的委員會那我們回到委員會的機制委員會的機制他們甚至後來因為學校裡面師師相護的狀態其實\n很常聽見當然不是全台灣的老師都這樣可是因為有非常多的案件像之前很嚴重的封中後來小孩是自殺墜樓這個事件讓我們更努力去想我們如何避免實施相互所以後來教育部他們就決定成立一個外部人才資料庫\n也就是他們受過一些受過專業訓練的人被教育部放在這個人才資料庫裡面所以如果學校要啟動相關霸凌事件調查的時候他就必須要去這個資料庫裡面找人或者是有相關的機制也就是他不是只是學校裡面去找\n那確保這個公平性那不管是加害者或者是被申訴的人被申訴的人就是加害者或者是受害者大家都會覺得這樣感覺公平一點公開一點透明一點大家比較願意信任這個機制站在保護為上我非常感謝教育部做這個改革但因為我剛剛已經先說我非常感謝人事總處先開啟了這個通報平台但是我在想我們可不可以後續在這個平台\n後續其他的配套上我們可以更細緻包含我剛說的可不可以有人才資料庫或者是相關的時間點或者是這個如何認定這件事情我認為平台是良善的第一步我們後續可不可以為這些行政機關裡面的人再多做一點 多做一點讓所有這些還願意留在行政機關為民服務的公務員不管他是基層 不管他是長官不管他是階級比較大的\n他們都可以好好安心的工作為人民服務我想要問一下董事長你的意見這問題裡面大概有兩個部分一個人才資料庫的問題事實上前陣子我到一些縣市去他們我們人事主管有跟我們反映因為那些人要找大概就是心理師或者精神醫師或者律師事實上我有建議他們\n就是建一個類似人才資料庫的概念因為現在的人說這個台北分他都被各個機關booking很忙所以上一年12月去的時候他說有些是要輪到今年的4月那個當事人才有空所以剛才委員提的那個人才資料庫的概念是非常好讓這一些有需要的機關學校他可以從人才資料庫有更完整的選材的\n各位因為我們現在的一個參議的外部委員基本上要超過一半所以要把這些人全部都找齊這個時間有時候也坦白講不方便所以有些機關他們開這個調查會的時候有時候是早上8點就開始開有些是中午有些是要當晚或晚上來開剛才委員這一個資料我想我們會去補充這方面的資料\n就是處理的類似QA的部分我們也會把它放進來因為每一個機關的承辦人員因為經驗的問題或者判斷的問題有時候該怎麼處理我們會把過去累積的一個經驗也放在這個平台讓這些同仁可以進來reference有一個比較完整的QA有一點類似知識庫的這個概念\n好 太好了我很開心聽到人士長正向的回應還有一個我覺得可能很細緻但是可能對於被害人會有很重要的保護作用跟宣示作用代表我們行政院對這件事情就是有態度的也就是目前在教育端的做法是會對於當事人有調離限制的配套設計我們有機會嗎\n我們目前就是已經在這樣做了目前已經這樣做了嗎以人種的我們的做法是這樣所以我們是有一個公文下去希望所有行政機關都用這個配套但是我們這樣人因為他那個霸凌的那個嚴重程度不大一樣而且他要安排他的職缺的問題有些是職缺的安排有些霸凌的狀況當事人的一個scenario不一樣所以他們會有不一樣的一個安排\n會有不一樣的安排好那意思就是說我們目前你的態度是支持的而且我們相關的做法有相關的公文或是行政命令下去了嗎讓各個機關知道說不是只有您在這邊宣示而是我們真的有這個可能性可是我剛剛已經說了它是配套那如果在人力的調度上有困難我們要怎麼來積極面對我覺得這是後續要討論的這不是我們今天在這邊討論完但是我就是提出一個提醒好\n我們再跟同仁討論看看就是要如何來協助各個人事機關如果遇到有霸凌的那個把他的普及權去做調離限職的應該就是很清楚就叫做調離限職的配套設計好最後一個如果我是被害人然後我對於相關的處理結果我認為我不滿意我不接受那有遇到調查爭議的時候我們上級機關介入調查申訴機制目前這部分有開啟了嗎\n有有有 因為我們已經有開啟了所以一樣嘛 也是你知道但是我們所有的行政機關都知道\n有的我們有發文過你要上級機關要介入因為現在像有些部會就已經上級在介入直接協助好那這個部分我們也會再跟任總這邊釐清我覺得確實如果我們有這麼多積極的作為包含你剛剛也已經承諾了人才資料庫你也很認同我們就往這個方向一起來努力我們讓更多所有這些為大家服務的公務員真的覺得政府有跟大家站在一起好不好好\n那接下來我們來看我還有40秒好再來我們談到關於行政法人的評鑑行政法人的評鑑當然目前的KPI是法人自己訂然後監督機關來審核然後評鑑小組來評分那我們看到其實常常有很多的法人其實大家對於他們的服務跟表現狀態是有些疑慮的以我過去在教委我們看到國訓中心裡面常常很多讓人家冒頭冒問號這樣子我想問一下這幾年的評鑑狀況\n或者是人種這邊有沒有什麼可能性來談這個事情當然我知道權責跟相關的分工可是我們可不可以更積極來面對這個事情基本上我跟委員報告這些都有它的主管機關像文化部的教育部那我們從行政法人的一個主管機關我們事實上也有在努力\n第一個吹你的問題啦,我說真的第一個吹你的問題第二個是awareness的問題我們希望說讓更多人了解行政法人他的角色的扮演他應該怎麼處理,坦白講有\n我承認我們還有努力的空間所以我們確實認同還有一定的機制跟相關的可能性去調整他們的awareness也好你剛說他們的awareness或者是他們的training確實都需要人總這邊更積極的不要說是插手啦而是有一些機制去讓這件事情變得更好對不對不要讓大家覺得我們好像就是自己給自己打分數啦\n這有一點類似我們在訂一個guideline給他們然後也必須要去practice所以這個guideline是有機會在多久以內訂出來?\n目前都有 可是我覺得就是剛才我跟委員報告的就是 awareness 跟 training 的部分我們還要再加強那相關的機制我們今天就不在這裡討論我們辦公室之後再跟你們實質開會討論我們會把一些相關資料先送委員辦公室上考好 謝謝人長好 謝謝陳培宇陳委員 接下來\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.496 --> 00:25.962\n好謝謝主席接下來有請人事長有請我們人事長委員長好人事長早安我們來看一下我要先肯定我們在去年12月13號人事總署這邊啟動了職場霸凌案件通報平台這個平台已經開始運作了我們看到資料從12月13號\n\n00:27.202 --> 00:41.392\n到2月28號目前呢收件數327在處理的138撤案的時期已經結案的172所以呢最後霸凌調查成立的目前看到的數字是1.7%\n\n00:43.473 --> 00:59.027\n那我當然不是這個霸凌處理或者是討論的專家但是我想要跟任市長分享一個可能性我們來討論看看我相信很多人看到這個1.7%只有三個案子成立我覺得很多人一定會滿頭問號\n\n01:02.669 --> 01:17.536\n會認為這個比例好像有一點不是太合乎我們一般人日常生活經驗中的了解更何況是非常多行政機關大家所擔心的問題那我們來看一下如果我們來看一個個案來下一張\n\n01:19.597 --> 01:41.447\n這邊這個案子我當然就不點名是哪一個單位不過因為它是發生在人事單位的這個報告裡面是這樣寫的他說呢另有冷嘲熱諷以及咆哮的行為可是呢就這個提出來的個案它所能夠提供的證據只能證明被申訴人偶有上開行為\n\n01:42.688 --> 02:00.783\n就是好像看不出那個頻率跟次數有多麼密集也不是很確定到底是不是很多很多這樣子所以決定不成立這個案子應該是不成立我再次強調我尊重專業的認定跟判斷那可是我要提醒人是這樣我覺得這真的\n\n02:02.765 --> 02:21.944\n跟我們一般的認知除了從數字端剛我說的數字端到這個報告但我想要分享另外一個我們之前在教育部也處理非常多校園裡面師對生生對生甚至是生對師都有可能的相關霸凌的\n\n02:23.706 --> 02:52.405\n邏輯我們是這樣想的本來以前在校園裡面我們來看一下下一張這是你們目前給我們的流程如果我們參考校園裡面以前在校園裡面我們確實也有遇到過這種到底情況如何認定誰說了算頻率要多少次數要多少或者是那個樣態要長成什麼樣子我們才可以被認定為大齡成立這個對孩子的權益或是對在校園裡面老師的權益對行政委員權益非常的重要\n\n02:53.025 --> 03:14.972\n後來呢在霸凌防制準則裡面呢教育部潘部長在卸任前他們整個學特斯結合非常多專家學者會議開了非常非常多的會也聽了校園裡面的意見也聽了兒少代表的意見大家後來決定是只要有單獨一次\n\n03:16.212 --> 03:37.653\n有人提出申訴就必須要開相關的委員會積極的討論跟去判斷這件事情以前是如果只有一次單次事件他們連開都不開會那開會之後要不要成立我們當然交由專業的委員會那我們回到委員會的機制委員會的機制他們甚至後來因為學校裡面師師相護的狀態其實\n\n03:42.301 --> 04:00.667\n很常聽見當然不是全台灣的老師都這樣可是因為有非常多的案件像之前很嚴重的封中後來小孩是自殺墜樓這個事件讓我們更努力去想我們如何避免實施相互所以後來教育部他們就決定成立一個外部人才資料庫\n\n04:01.627 --> 04:19.461\n也就是他們受過一些受過專業訓練的人被教育部放在這個人才資料庫裡面所以如果學校要啟動相關霸凌事件調查的時候他就必須要去這個資料庫裡面找人或者是有相關的機制也就是他不是只是學校裡面去找\n\n04:20.442 --> 04:46.273\n那確保這個公平性那不管是加害者或者是被申訴的人被申訴的人就是加害者或者是受害者大家都會覺得這樣感覺公平一點公開一點透明一點大家比較願意信任這個機制站在保護為上我非常感謝教育部做這個改革但因為我剛剛已經先說我非常感謝人事總處先開啟了這個通報平台但是我在想我們可不可以後續在這個平台\n\n04:47.473 --> 05:14.150\n後續其他的配套上我們可以更細緻包含我剛說的可不可以有人才資料庫或者是相關的時間點或者是這個如何認定這件事情我認為平台是良善的第一步我們後續可不可以為這些行政機關裡面的人再多做一點多做一點讓所有這些還願意留在行政機關為民服務的公務員不管他是基層不管他是長官不管他是階級比較大的\n\n05:14.690 --> 05:38.586\n他們都可以好好安心的工作為人民服務我想要問一下董事長你的意見這問題裡面大概有兩個部分一個人才資料庫的問題事實上前陣子我到一些縣市去他們我們人事主管有跟我們反映因為那些人要找大概就是心理師或者精神醫師或者律師事實上我有建議他們\n\n05:40.227 --> 06:07.466\n就是建一個類似人才資料庫的概念因為現在的人說這個台北分他都被各個機關booking很忙所以上一年12月去的時候他說有些是要輪到今年的4月那個當事人才有空所以剛才委員提的那個人才資料庫的概念是非常好讓這一些有需要的機關學校他可以從人才資料庫有更完整的選材的\n\n06:09.707 --> 06:38.566\n各位因為我們現在的一個參議的外部委員基本上要超過一半所以要把這些人全部都找齊這個時間有時候也坦白講不方便所以有些機關他們開這個調查會的時候有時候是早上8點就開始開有些是中午有些是要當晚或晚上來開剛才委員這一個資料我想我們會去補充這方面的資料\n\n06:39.687 --> 07:03.093\n就是處理的類似QA的部分我們也會把它放進來因為每一個機關的承辦人員因為經驗的問題或者判斷的問題有時候該怎麼處理我們會把過去累積的一個經驗也放在這個平台讓這些同仁可以進來reference有一個比較完整的QA有一點類似知識庫的這個概念\n\n07:03.353 --> 07:21.507\n好太好了我很開心聽到人士長正向的回應還有一個我覺得可能很細緻但是可能對於被害人會有很重要的保護作用跟宣示作用代表我們行政院對這件事情就是有態度的也就是目前在教育端的做法是會對於當事人有調離限制的配套設計我們有機會嗎\n\n07:24.669 --> 07:52.836\n我們目前就是已經在這樣做了目前已經這樣做了嗎以人種的我們的做法是這樣所以我們是有一個公文下去希望所有行政機關都用這個配套但是我們這樣人因為他那個霸凌的那個嚴重程度不大一樣而且他要安排他的職缺的問題有些是職缺的安排有些霸凌的狀況當事人的一個scenario不一樣所以他們會有不一樣的一個安排\n\n07:53.936 --> 08:19.538\n會有不一樣的安排好那意思就是說我們目前你的態度是支持的而且我們相關的做法有相關的公文或是行政命令下去了嗎讓各個機關知道說不是只有您在這邊宣示而是我們真的有這個可能性可是我剛剛已經說了它是配套那如果在人力的調度上有困難我們要怎麼來積極面對我覺得這是後續要討論的這不是我們今天在這邊討論完但是我就是提出一個提醒好\n\n08:21.040 --> 08:48.041\n我們再跟同仁討論看看就是要如何來協助各個人事機關如果遇到有霸凌的那個把他的普及權去做調離限職的應該就是很清楚就叫做調離限職的配套設計好最後一個如果我是被害人然後我對於相關的處理結果我認為我不滿意我不接受那有遇到調查爭議的時候我們上級機關介入調查申訴機制目前這部分有開啟了嗎\n\n08:49.358 --> 08:55.445\n有有有因為我們已經有開啟了所以一樣嘛也是你知道但是我們所有的行政機關都知道\n\n08:56.348 --> 09:20.621\n有的我們有發文過你要上級機關要介入因為現在像有些部會就已經上級在介入直接協助好那這個部分我們也會再跟任總這邊釐清我覺得確實如果我們有這麼多積極的作為包含你剛剛也已經承諾了人才資料庫你也很認同我們就往這個方向一起來努力我們讓更多所有這些為大家服務的公務員真的覺得政府有跟大家站在一起好不好好\n\n09:21.721 --> 09:45.579\n那接下來我們來看我還有40秒好再來我們談到關於行政法人的評鑑行政法人的評鑑當然目前的KPI是法人自己訂然後監督機關來審核然後評鑑小組來評分那我們看到其實常常有很多的法人其實大家對於他們的服務跟表現狀態是有些疑慮的以我過去在教委我們看到國訓中心裡面常常很多讓人家冒頭冒問號這樣子我想問一下這幾年的評鑑狀況\n\n09:51.644 --> 10:15.527\n或者是人種這邊有沒有什麼可能性來談這個事情當然我知道權責跟相關的分工可是我們可不可以更積極來面對這個事情基本上我跟委員報告這些都有它的主管機關像文化部的教育部那我們從行政法人的一個主管機關我們事實上也有在努力\n\n10:17.148 --> 10:30.216\n第一個吹你的問題啦,我說真的第一個吹你的問題第二個是awareness的問題我們希望說讓更多人了解行政法人他的角色的扮演他應該怎麼處理,坦白講有\n\n10:32.014 --> 10:56.430\n我承認我們還有努力的空間所以我們確實認同還有一定的機制跟相關的可能性去調整他們的awareness也好你剛說他們的awareness或者是他們的training確實都需要人總這邊更積極的不要說是插手啦而是有一些機制去讓這件事情變得更好對不對不要讓大家覺得我們好像就是自己給自己打分數啦\n\n10:58.590 --> 11:05.884\n這有一點類似我們在訂一個guideline給他們然後也必須要去practice所以這個guideline是有機會在多久以內訂出來?\n\n11:08.041 --> 11:21.379\n目前都有可是我覺得就是剛才我跟委員報告的就是awareness跟training的部分我們還要再加強那相關的機制我們今天就不在這裡討論我們辦公室之後再跟你們實質開會討論我們會把一些相關資料先送委員辦公室上考好謝謝人長好謝謝陳培宇陳委員接下來\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.496,"end":25.962,"text":"好 謝謝主席接下來有請人事長有請我們人事長委員長好 人事長早安我們來看一下我要先肯定我們在去年12月13號人事總署這邊啟動了職場霸凌案件通報平台這個平台已經開始運作了我們看到資料從12月13號"},{"start":27.202,"end":41.392,"text":"到2月28號目前呢收件數327在處理的138撤案的時期已經結案的172所以呢最後霸凌調查成立的目前看到的數字是1.7%"},{"start":43.473,"end":59.027,"text":"那我當然不是這個霸凌處理或者是討論的專家但是我想要跟任市長分享一個可能性我們來討論看看我相信很多人看到這個1.7%只有三個案子成立我覺得很多人一定會滿頭問號"},{"start":62.669,"end":77.536,"text":"會認為這個比例好像有一點不是太合乎我們一般人日常生活經驗中的了解更何況是非常多行政機關大家所擔心的問題那我們來看一下如果我們來看一個個案來下一張"},{"start":79.597,"end":101.447,"text":"這邊這個案子我當然就不點名是哪一個單位不過因為它是發生在人事單位的這個報告裡面是這樣寫的他說呢另有冷嘲熱諷以及咆哮的行為可是呢就這個提出來的個案它所能夠提供的證據只能證明被申訴人偶有上開行為"},{"start":102.688,"end":120.783,"text":"就是好像看不出那個頻率跟次數有多麼密集也不是很確定到底是不是很多很多這樣子所以決定不成立這個案子應該是不成立我再次強調我尊重專業的認定跟判斷那可是我要提醒人是這樣我覺得這真的"},{"start":122.765,"end":141.944,"text":"跟我們一般的認知除了從數字端剛我說的數字端到這個報告但我想要分享另外一個我們之前在教育部也處理非常多校園裡面師對生 生對生甚至是生對師都有可能的相關霸凌的"},{"start":143.706,"end":172.405,"text":"邏輯我們是這樣想的本來以前在校園裡面我們來看一下下一張這是你們目前給我們的流程如果我們參考校園裡面以前在校園裡面我們確實也有遇到過這種到底情況如何認定誰說了算頻率要多少次數要多少或者是那個樣態要長成什麼樣子我們才可以被認定為大齡成立這個對孩子的權益或是對在校園裡面老師的權益對行政委員權益非常的重要"},{"start":173.025,"end":194.972,"text":"後來呢在霸凌防制準則裡面呢教育部潘部長在卸任前他們整個學特斯結合非常多專家學者會議開了非常非常多的會也聽了校園裡面的意見也聽了兒少代表的意見大家後來決定是只要有單獨一次"},{"start":196.212,"end":217.653,"text":"有人提出申訴就必須要開相關的委員會積極的討論跟去判斷這件事情以前是如果只有一次單次事件他們連開都不開會那開會之後要不要成立我們當然交由專業的委員會那我們回到委員會的機制委員會的機制他們甚至後來因為學校裡面師師相護的狀態其實"},{"start":222.301,"end":240.667,"text":"很常聽見當然不是全台灣的老師都這樣可是因為有非常多的案件像之前很嚴重的封中後來小孩是自殺墜樓這個事件讓我們更努力去想我們如何避免實施相互所以後來教育部他們就決定成立一個外部人才資料庫"},{"start":241.627,"end":259.461,"text":"也就是他們受過一些受過專業訓練的人被教育部放在這個人才資料庫裡面所以如果學校要啟動相關霸凌事件調查的時候他就必須要去這個資料庫裡面找人或者是有相關的機制也就是他不是只是學校裡面去找"},{"start":260.442,"end":286.273,"text":"那確保這個公平性那不管是加害者或者是被申訴的人被申訴的人就是加害者或者是受害者大家都會覺得這樣感覺公平一點公開一點透明一點大家比較願意信任這個機制站在保護為上我非常感謝教育部做這個改革但因為我剛剛已經先說我非常感謝人事總處先開啟了這個通報平台但是我在想我們可不可以後續在這個平台"},{"start":287.473,"end":314.15,"text":"後續其他的配套上我們可以更細緻包含我剛說的可不可以有人才資料庫或者是相關的時間點或者是這個如何認定這件事情我認為平台是良善的第一步我們後續可不可以為這些行政機關裡面的人再多做一點 多做一點讓所有這些還願意留在行政機關為民服務的公務員不管他是基層 不管他是長官不管他是階級比較大的"},{"start":314.69,"end":338.586,"text":"他們都可以好好安心的工作為人民服務我想要問一下董事長你的意見這問題裡面大概有兩個部分一個人才資料庫的問題事實上前陣子我到一些縣市去他們我們人事主管有跟我們反映因為那些人要找大概就是心理師或者精神醫師或者律師事實上我有建議他們"},{"start":340.227,"end":367.466,"text":"就是建一個類似人才資料庫的概念因為現在的人說這個台北分他都被各個機關booking很忙所以上一年12月去的時候他說有些是要輪到今年的4月那個當事人才有空所以剛才委員提的那個人才資料庫的概念是非常好讓這一些有需要的機關學校他可以從人才資料庫有更完整的選材的"},{"start":369.707,"end":398.566,"text":"各位因為我們現在的一個參議的外部委員基本上要超過一半所以要把這些人全部都找齊這個時間有時候也坦白講不方便所以有些機關他們開這個調查會的時候有時候是早上8點就開始開有些是中午有些是要當晚或晚上來開剛才委員這一個資料我想我們會去補充這方面的資料"},{"start":399.687,"end":423.093,"text":"就是處理的類似QA的部分我們也會把它放進來因為每一個機關的承辦人員因為經驗的問題或者判斷的問題有時候該怎麼處理我們會把過去累積的一個經驗也放在這個平台讓這些同仁可以進來reference有一個比較完整的QA有一點類似知識庫的這個概念"},{"start":423.353,"end":441.507,"text":"好 太好了我很開心聽到人士長正向的回應還有一個我覺得可能很細緻但是可能對於被害人會有很重要的保護作用跟宣示作用代表我們行政院對這件事情就是有態度的也就是目前在教育端的做法是會對於當事人有調離限制的配套設計我們有機會嗎"},{"start":444.669,"end":472.836,"text":"我們目前就是已經在這樣做了目前已經這樣做了嗎以人種的我們的做法是這樣所以我們是有一個公文下去希望所有行政機關都用這個配套但是我們這樣人因為他那個霸凌的那個嚴重程度不大一樣而且他要安排他的職缺的問題有些是職缺的安排有些霸凌的狀況當事人的一個scenario不一樣所以他們會有不一樣的一個安排"},{"start":473.936,"end":499.538,"text":"會有不一樣的安排好那意思就是說我們目前你的態度是支持的而且我們相關的做法有相關的公文或是行政命令下去了嗎讓各個機關知道說不是只有您在這邊宣示而是我們真的有這個可能性可是我剛剛已經說了它是配套那如果在人力的調度上有困難我們要怎麼來積極面對我覺得這是後續要討論的這不是我們今天在這邊討論完但是我就是提出一個提醒好"},{"start":501.04,"end":528.041,"text":"我們再跟同仁討論看看就是要如何來協助各個人事機關如果遇到有霸凌的那個把他的普及權去做調離限職的應該就是很清楚就叫做調離限職的配套設計好最後一個如果我是被害人然後我對於相關的處理結果我認為我不滿意我不接受那有遇到調查爭議的時候我們上級機關介入調查申訴機制目前這部分有開啟了嗎"},{"start":529.358,"end":535.445,"text":"有有有 因為我們已經有開啟了所以一樣嘛 也是你知道但是我們所有的行政機關都知道"},{"start":536.348,"end":560.621,"text":"有的我們有發文過你要上級機關要介入因為現在像有些部會就已經上級在介入直接協助好那這個部分我們也會再跟任總這邊釐清我覺得確實如果我們有這麼多積極的作為包含你剛剛也已經承諾了人才資料庫你也很認同我們就往這個方向一起來努力我們讓更多所有這些為大家服務的公務員真的覺得政府有跟大家站在一起好不好好"},{"start":561.721,"end":585.579,"text":"那接下來我們來看我還有40秒好再來我們談到關於行政法人的評鑑行政法人的評鑑當然目前的KPI是法人自己訂然後監督機關來審核然後評鑑小組來評分那我們看到其實常常有很多的法人其實大家對於他們的服務跟表現狀態是有些疑慮的以我過去在教委我們看到國訓中心裡面常常很多讓人家冒頭冒問號這樣子我想問一下這幾年的評鑑狀況"},{"start":591.644,"end":615.527,"text":"或者是人種這邊有沒有什麼可能性來談這個事情當然我知道權責跟相關的分工可是我們可不可以更積極來面對這個事情基本上我跟委員報告這些都有它的主管機關像文化部的教育部那我們從行政法人的一個主管機關我們事實上也有在努力"},{"start":617.148,"end":630.216,"text":"第一個吹你的問題啦,我說真的第一個吹你的問題第二個是awareness的問題我們希望說讓更多人了解行政法人他的角色的扮演他應該怎麼處理,坦白講有"},{"start":632.014,"end":656.43,"text":"我承認我們還有努力的空間所以我們確實認同還有一定的機制跟相關的可能性去調整他們的awareness也好你剛說他們的awareness或者是他們的training確實都需要人總這邊更積極的不要說是插手啦而是有一些機制去讓這件事情變得更好對不對不要讓大家覺得我們好像就是自己給自己打分數啦"},{"start":658.59,"end":665.884,"text":"這有一點類似我們在訂一個guideline給他們然後也必須要去practice所以這個guideline是有機會在多久以內訂出來?"},{"start":668.041,"end":681.379,"text":"目前都有 可是我覺得就是剛才我跟委員報告的就是 awareness 跟 training 的部分我們還要再加強那相關的機制我們今天就不在這裡討論我們辦公室之後再跟你們實質開會討論我們會把一些相關資料先送委員辦公室上考好 謝謝人長好 謝謝陳培宇陳委員 接下來"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":746,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時12分）謝謝主席。有請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["陳委員培瑜：人事長早安。我們來看一下，我要先肯定去年12月13日人事總處啟動職場霸凌案件通報平臺，這個平臺已經開始運作了。資料顯示，從12月13日到2月28日，收件數為327，在處理的138，撤案的17，已經結案的172，所以霸凌調查成立的，目前看到的數字是1.7%。我不是處理霸凌或討論的專家，但我想要跟人事長分享一個可能性，同時討論看看。","我相信看到1.7%、只有三個案子成立時，很多人會滿頭問號，會認為比例好像不太合乎一般人日常生活的經驗與了解，何況這是非常多行政機關中大家所擔心的問題。我們來看一個個案。","這個案子我就不點名是哪一個單位，不過是發生在人事單位。報告是這樣寫的，另有冷嘲熱諷以及咆哮的行為。由於該案所能夠提供的證據，只能證明被申訴人偶有上開行為，也就是看不出頻率與次數有多麼密集，也不是很確定到底是不是很多，所以決定不成立，這個案子不成立。我再次強調，我尊重專業的認定跟判斷，可是我要提醒人事長，這跟我們一般的認知不同，不管是從數字端還是報告均如此。","我想分享另外一件事。之前教育部也處理非常多校園裡師對生、生對生，甚至是生對師，都有可能發生霸凌的邏輯，我們是這樣想的。我們來看一下，這是你們給的流程，以前在校園裡確實有遇過到底該如何認定的情況，誰說了算？頻率要多少？次數要多少？樣態要長成什麼樣子才可以被認定為霸凌成立？這對孩子的權益或對在校園裡老師的權益及行政人員的權益非常重要。在霸凌防制準則裡，教育部潘部長卸任前，學特司結合非常多專家學者開了非常、非常多的會，也聽了校園裡的意見及兒少代表的意見，大家後來決定：只要單獨一次有人提出申訴，就必須召開相關委員會積極討論並判斷這件事情。以前如果只有一次單次事件，他們連會都不開；至於開會之後案件要不要成立？當然交由專業委員會決定。現在回到委員會的機制來說，後來發現學校裡師師相護的狀態很常聽見，當然不是全臺灣的老師都這樣，可是因為有非常多的案件，像之前很嚴重的豐中一案，後來小孩自殺墜樓！這個事件讓我們更努力去想，該如何避免師師相護？所以教育部決定成立外部人才資料庫，也就是一些受過專業訓練的人被教育部放在人才資料庫裡，當學校啟動霸凌事件相關調查時，就必須去資料庫裡找人，這是有相關機制的。也就是並非只是從學校裡去找，以確保公平性！不管是加害者或者是被申訴的人，被申訴人就加害者或受害者，大家都會覺得公平一點、公開一點、透明一點，大家會比較願意信任這個機制。","站在保護原則上，我非常感謝教育部做了這個改革。不過我剛剛已經說過非常感謝人事總處先開啟了通報平臺，但是我在想，後續這個平臺及其他配套上可不可以更細緻？包含我剛剛說的，可不可以有人才資料庫或相關的時間點，及如何認定這件事情？我認為平臺是良善的第一步，我們後續可不可以為這些行政機關裡的人再多做一點，讓所有願意留在行政機關為民服務的公務員，不管是基層、不管是長官或階級比較大的，都可以好好安心工作，為人民服務？我想要請問人事長的意見。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這裡面大概分兩個部分：一個是人才資料庫的問題，前陣子我到一些縣市去，人事主管有跟我們反映，要找的大概就是心理師或精神醫師、律師，所以我建議他們建立類似人才資料庫的概念。說真的，這些人士都被各個機關booking了，很忙。去年12月去的時候他們說有些要等到今年4月才有空。剛才委員提到人才資料庫的概念非常好，讓有需要的機關、學校可以從人才資料庫得到更完整的選才，不用等好幾個月。基本上，現在參與的外部委員要超過一半，要把這些人全部找齊，坦白講，時間上有時候不方便。有些機關在召開調查會時，有時候早上8點就開始，有些是中午，有些是傍晚或晚上才能開。剛才委員提到這一點，我們會去補充這方面的資料。","第二個部分就是有關QA的處理，我們也會把它放進來。畢竟每一個機關承辦人員囿於經驗或判斷問題，有時候該怎麼處理……所以我們會把過去所累積的經驗放在這個平臺上，讓這些同仁可以進來reference，得到一個比較完整的QA，即類似知識庫的概念。"],["陳委員培瑜：太好了，很開心聽到人事長正向的回應。還有一點，這可能很細緻，但對於被害人會有很重要的保護作用跟宣示作用，代表行政院對這件事情是有態度的。目前教育端的作法對當事人有調離現職的配套設計，我們有機會嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：目前就已經這樣做了。"],["陳委員培瑜：目前已經這樣做了嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：人總的作法是這樣。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以是有公文下去，希望所有行政機關都用這個配套，但是我們這樣……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：因為霸凌的嚴重程度不大一樣，而且有些是職缺安排的問題，有些是霸凌的狀況當事人的scenario不一樣，所以他們會有不一樣的安排。"],["陳委員培瑜：目前你的態度是支持的，而且我們相關的作法，有相關的公文或是行政命令下去了嗎？讓各個機關知道說不是只有您在這邊宣示，而是我們真的有這個可能性。可是我剛剛已經說它是配套，如果在人力的調度上有困難，我們要怎麼來積極面對？我覺得這都是後續要討論的，這不是我們今天在這邊討論完，我是提出一個提醒。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，我們再跟同仁討論看看要如何來協助各個人事機關，如果遇到霸凌，把他的position去做調離現職……"],["陳委員培瑜：應該就是很清楚，就叫調離現職的配套設計。","最後一個，如果我是被害人，我對於相關的處理結果，我認為我不滿意、我不接受，有遇到調查爭議的時候，上級機關介入調查申訴機制，目前這個部分有開啟了嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有，我們已經有開啟了。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以也是你知道，但是我們所有的行政機關都知道嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有，我們有發文過，上級機關要介入，因為現在像有些部會都已經上級在介入直接協助了。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個部分我們也會再跟人總釐清，我覺得如果我們有這麼多積極的作為，包含你剛剛已經承諾了，人才資料庫你也很認同，我們就往這個方向一起來努力，我們讓更多所有這些為大家服務的公務員，真的覺得政府有跟大家站在一起，好不好？","接下來，我還有40秒，關於行政法人的評鑑，目前的KPI是法人自己訂，監督機關來審核，評鑑小組來評分，我們看到常常有很多的法人，大家對於他們的服務跟表現狀態是有些疑慮的，以我過去在教文，我們看到國訓中心裡面，常常很多讓人家頭冒問號，我想問一下，這幾年的評鑑狀況，或者人總有沒有什麼可能性來談這個事情？我知道權責跟相關的分工，可是我們可不可以更積極來面對這個事情？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，這些都由它的主管機關，像文化部……"],["陳委員培瑜：我知道。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：像教育部，我們從行政法人的主管機關，我們事實上也有在努力。第一個，training的問題；第二個是awareness的問題，我們希望說讓更多人了解行政法人的角色扮演，它應該怎麼處理，坦白講，我承認我們還有努力的空間。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以我們還有一定的機制跟相關的可能性去調整他們的awareness也好，或者是他們的training，確實都需要人總這邊更積極的作法，不要說是插手，而是有一些評鑑、機制去讓這件事情變得更好，對不對？不要讓大家覺得我們好像就是自己給自己打分數啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這有一點類似我們再訂一個guideline給他們，也必須要去practice。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以這個guideline是有機會在多久以內訂出來？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：目前都有guideline，可是我覺得就是剛才跟委員報告的awareness跟training的部分，我們還要再加強。"],["陳委員培瑜：相關的機制我們今天就不在這裡討論，我們辦公室之後再跟你們實質開會討論。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們會把一些相關資料先送委員辦公室參考。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝人長、主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。接下來請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林倩綺","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈發惠","羅智強","王義川","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","吳宗憲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00001"}}}