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審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 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\"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 759.826, \"end\": 760.486, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 760.486, \"end\": 761.167, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 761.167, \"end\": 761.627, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 761.627, \"end\": 761.887, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 761.887, \"end\": 762.027, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 762.027, \"end\": 762.347, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 762.347, \"end\": 762.507, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"感\", \"start\": 762.507, \"end\": 762.988, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 762.988, \"end\": 763.568, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"繼\"}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"努\", \"start\": 763.568, \"end\": 763.688, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 763.688, \"end\": 764.168, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 764.168, \"end\": 764.648, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 764.648, \"end\": 764.969, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 764.969, \"end\": 765.169, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 765.169, \"end\": 765.189, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:14,346 --> 00:00:17,028\n有請廖安章兼次長委員好次長好我要向你說聲學長好我們剛才從像下一頁我們剛才從朝野的立委上面的關於營養午餐的說明說明或是在詢答當中發現到大家可以看到有一些火花但是很重要的是我們全部的都是在為\n\n2\n00:00:44,305 --> 00:01:11,062\n我們的新年就是什麼的學齡的學童這邊來做做他們的健康啊還包括的是在地的這個食材等等的健康還有國民健康這邊去做服務那現在這個情況之下我們現在想問到的問題是在於看到我們在看下一頁因為看到很多的爭執是在於說在下一頁我新增的那一部分在於說因為是才化法還有\n\n3\n00:01:12,743 --> 00:01:17,130\n包括還有就是中央政府的預算這邊啊因為上個禮拜行政院提出來之後呢它的附議是沒有通過的是被否決的然後這邊沒有確定而導致的當初\n\n4\n00:01:25,799 --> 00:01:45,741\n教育部在11月的時候有提出來的版本送布之後對送院送行政院送行政院沒錯送院的這個情況之下呢結果就因為這個變數出現了我們還繼續跟地方政府溝通繼續跟地方政府溝通那我們也看到一件很重要的事情是在於說剛才布\n\n5\n00:01:46,942 --> 00:01:58,493\n市長你這邊所說的是說財務的這部分因為原來目前已經有這個補助是到74億嘛對不對然後最多最多一直在增加的話可能會到達220億嘛對不對那如果這個情況下因為我剛剛聽到一個結果很重要是說這個\n\n6\n00:02:04,699 --> 00:02:18,255\n因為各地在做營養午餐的這個差異性啊是有這個縣市嘛財源啊還有偏鄉供應的這個問題嘛那這種情況之下是不是在於說這個本質的性質是比較屬於地方性的\n\n7\n00:02:19,494 --> 00:02:34,575\n對營養午餐其實從地方制度法來看尤其是國民中小學屬於國民教育階段本來就屬於地方的選擇對那如果在這個情況之下在目前通過的財政收支劃分法當中增加的是3000\n\n8\n00:02:37,418 --> 00:03:02,011\n753億的這個情況之下地方財政授權法法地方多了3753億的情況之下如果這個市權可以獲得就是確認就是他多了這個情況之下他事實上有多的裁員去做這邊的關於新增的在如果我們訂了這個專法之後在對營養午餐的供給上有個法源讓他們更有資源去做這些事情包括的是營養師包括的是\n\n9\n00:03:05,854 --> 00:03:23,448\n這個執行的秘書嘛我懂委員的意思所以我們必須要再找地方政府來協商而且可能每一個地方政府對於所獲配的財源會有不同的態度願意負擔的比例跟原則也不一所以這就是很困難的地方譬如說\n\n10\n00:03:24,428 --> 00:03:46,183\n金門馬祖他們最近好像花蓮有比較多那他們願不願意我們過去補助偏向很多那他們願不願意多來提撥一些經費這些新增的這個稅收來源來做補助如果他們願意我們都很高興那我們中央這邊我們會如果我們在配置上能夠少一些那我們減少的部分可以減掉那\n\n11\n00:03:46,963 --> 00:03:59,798\n我們也可以馬上就這個法的精神來請他們一起來努力來達成那可能有些縣市他可能覺得我們過去偏鄉比較多中央補助很多那我們貨配的財源不夠我們不希望中央斷了這個補助\n\n12\n00:04:01,980 --> 00:04:27,068\n所以這個部分其實是有一些複雜度要去討論那真的還需要時間就是說我們也不曉得就是說環境上的變化形勢上的變化會這樣子一關過一關不過就是剛才我們所強調的不管是弱勢兒童的補助營養午餐的補助中央廚房偏鄉計畫的補助改善或者是食材可溯源的國產食材的補助其實我們每年都繼續在補助\n\n13\n00:04:28,348 --> 00:04:55,714\n那我們真的很希望今年都還在預算內那明年不要因為財化法而有了這個問題那地方又不願意負擔那這個就會變成孩子被丟包我想財化法的衝擊不應該是這樣它目的是希望中央地方有一個均衡的財源地方有一些自主的財源可是這個就真的要談到權利跟義務就是說有比較多的自主財源的權利你就有一些義務那這個部分坦白講\n\n14\n00:04:56,314 --> 00:05:24,892\n要從教育部的角度來談這個事情也不容易談好但是我現在想要說的是從市長你的這個想法出來的時候就在於說的確的這個事情上面看起來是要經過了裁劃法或是說是我們現在的預算中央政府總預算通過之後當然就要看的是行政院他們的態度在十天之內是不是就公布生效或是說他要在可是不管怎樣十天之內他要去做在這做憲法訴訟當然都沒關係反正他市長好像會\n\n15\n00:05:26,012 --> 00:05:43,826\n時間真的會生效嗎?對,那知道這個情況之下,可是它一旦生效的時候,就是必須會做,除非它都被暫時處分等等,所以可能也沒有那麼快。但是重點是在於說,我們今天要召開這樣子的一個詢問,最重要的目的是說,想要問的問題是,確定應該是有必要去遞定這個專法嗎?對不對?\n\n16\n00:05:45,347 --> 00:06:08,165\n我們希望能夠定,但是這遇到的問題也必須解決,現實上必須面對對,是要去定,那我們現在的在目前的這個情況之下的時候我們本黨就是也提出了我們本黨的這個意見,那我想就因為後來就是進入到修法的委會審查嘛,對不對,所以就想說的是法的精神我們會繼續討論是是是,那非常好,那我就想說,如果在這個以\n\n17\n00:06:10,126 --> 00:06:30,731\n以現在的我們預計說要通過的情況下尤其是責任已經是放到地方政府上面去他事實上裁員多了3000多位的情況之下您剛所說的這個部分的擔憂其實我覺得是替教育部減輕了很多負擔所以應該您要比較輕鬆但是架構這是甜蜜的負擔補助給學生是甜蜜的負擔這問題是現實上\n\n18\n00:06:33,561 --> 00:07:01,815\n如果沒有辦法去對所以這個就必須要靠法律上面透過這個架構法當中去做一下規範那我就想要進入到實質的部分想要針對我們民眾黨所提出來這個部分因為目前的知道的是在這個國中小這邊是有也百分之百在公立學校是這個支柱那我現在想我們民眾版的版本當中是把它提到的是說高中以下的部分那您的對這個如果高中生也納入到說可以受惠在營養午餐本您有什麼看法\n\n19\n00:07:02,917 --> 00:07:24,085\n我們訂的布板的法其實就只高中以下但是坦白講現在問題比較多的是國民中小學因為你知道高中生的用餐他們自主性比較強你看那些建中北一女的那個中午的時候很多那個UberEats他們就是自己訂餐然後自己去福利社去買他們比較不太願意但有些像地方\n\n20\n00:07:24,565 --> 00:07:39,538\n他是高中國中是完全中學他們也會辦可是你就會發現高中生參加的比例比較低那這部分我們認為國中小以當時中央的裁員補助地方來講那當然是國中小優先所以我們才會在大家的關心下從108年到現在\n\n21\n00:07:41,340 --> 00:08:04,877\n其實每年陸續的補助經費在精進項目在增加然後也繼續就管理的部分有漏洞的部分我們也增加了很多的費用來讓這個相關的權責單位能夠有工具讓這個管理更好施安更好好可是現在如果財化法這個真的生效之後這個部分大部分的都是屬於縣市的學校嘛對不對所以我說財化法沒有經過討論就做這樣子坦白講我們很難去\n\n22\n00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:25,723\n不會我是先替你我們一起來共同想辦法就在於說因為除了國立的這樣子的一個學校高中之外其實很多是屬於縣立縣市的基隆那這種情況之下的時候他有的財源他更可以去操作所以這部分就涉及授權的\n\n23\n00:08:26,804 --> 00:08:48,028\n像台北市他可能採訪法之後他會增加四百、四、五百億嘛我看到,我不知道這不是謠言嘛,但是我看到的那個表是這樣那他可能我們這個對於這個他們的孩子吃的本來就我看他們那個條件標準就比其他縣市還好他一餐可能到七十幾塊、八十幾塊甚至有的聽說到上百那在這種狀況下在補助的比例上面我們將來要怎麼談就是說我們那沒有關係對\n\n24\n00:08:51,229 --> 00:09:09,961\n那個次長我就先講到最後我很高興聽到說教育部的佈板當中就是有提到說把高中的上去有含高中就非常好那第二個部分呢我想要談的是說在這個公餐的形態當中因為您剛才也說了去年已經開了好幾次的公廳會這個部分那目前還是以\n\n25\n00:09:10,901 --> 00:09:30,138\n自設廚房為主那在其他的部分還有鄰近學校供應中央廚房或是民營的團善的供應這種情況那我們在想說在有意見當中是對民營的這個團善的供應的情況它事實上好像它只中意到所謂的統餐跟合餐\n\n26\n00:09:30,798 --> 00:09:49,670\n在這個地方就是因為財源的不足才有需要可是它在運送的時候可能有些問題就是它的穩定性和安全性所以在這種情況之下我們繼續說要把民營的部分把它拉進去把法律的明確性讓它有多元的前提在好運到草原的情況之下您認為這部分\n\n27\n00:09:50,350 --> 00:10:06,305\n有這樣多元的請第四點把它加入用合約的方式來去規範您覺得如何委員會學法律非常清楚我們在共同供應契約裡面有詳定各種包括運送過程裡面它如果被計點點數多少要罰多少錢我想都非常詳細我個人非常關心其實我參觀過很多這個公辦這個民營的那個\n\n28\n00:10:10,529 --> 00:10:38,132\n參和業者他們的公餐情況我們都實際上考察了那也去了解了那所以包括我也到日本去日本就純粹的公辦名言那他們把關一樣都很嚴格其實剛才有委員提到說日本的這個參和業者他們的這個幾十法每一項細項都很認真我也可以告訴我們委員其實台灣現在進步到現在也非常關心那有些個案的發生都很不幸我們也希望這些比例減少\n\n29\n00:10:38,932 --> 00:11:02,854\n監察院對教育部的批評要求我們也都會持續在做這是一個進步的象徵我想有批評才會改進有改進才會進步我想我們都願意細心來接受所以說在沒有修法之前我個人也非常清楚我在當委員的時候到現在他是不斷地在精進我去訪問東京的那個國小的時候他跟我說他們也可以看到台灣的食材跟這個東西如果那不是假照的話\n\n30\n00:11:03,314 --> 00:11:20,778\n他們認為台灣一餐60幾塊他們120塊我們吃的並不比他們差所以說這樣子的一個情況下我覺得專法如果要立它實質上的立就是希望孩子能夠得到更多孩子要得到更多我們中央地方一定要一起努力\n\n31\n00:11:21,018 --> 00:11:27,381\n是是是然後最後一個問題就是關於在人力的部分那人力部分當然也涉及到財務嘛對不對所以這個等到這個財務財政劃分收支法這確認的時候就可以如果是我們的地方政府拿到就沒問題但是我現在的問題是在於說可以看見出來是在營養師還有所謂執行秘書在這個儲供這些部分我們都本黨都有些提供的一些做法包括是儲供就是應該500個人的時候呢學校500人的規模的時候都要有\n\n32\n00:11:51,771 --> 00:11:52,231\n您對這個看法是怎麼樣?\n\n33\n00:12:10,988 --> 00:12:21,981\n我想委員的建議因為很多版本那民眾黨團的這個版本的建議我們一定會納入一起來參作一起來參考好不好好謝謝那我希望在這個情況下我們看在下兩頁就在於說\n\n34\n00:12:24,318 --> 00:12:45,189\n有關於說這個有營養的午餐的這部分它實際上是我們整個完備營養三法的這一部分那如果把這塊部分把它加進來的話大概就是所有的我們政府跟我們民眾學生都是雙很多signing的部分那請我們部跟兩個院大家一起來合作好謝謝委員的關心我們很感謝我們會繼續努力謝謝好謝謝次長跟署長謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n14346\t17028\t有請廖安章兼次長委員好次長好 我要向你說聲學長好我們剛才從像下一頁我們剛才從朝野的立委上面的關於營養午餐的說明說明或是在詢答當中發現到大家可以看到有一些火花但是很重要的是我們全部的都是在為\n44305\t71062\t我們的新年就是什麼的學齡的學童這邊來做做他們的健康啊還包括的是在地的這個食材等等的健康還有國民健康這邊去做服務那現在這個情況之下我們現在想問到的問題是在於看到我們在看下一頁因為看到很多的爭執是在於說在下一頁我新增的那一部分在於說因為是才化法還有\n72743\t77130\t包括還有就是中央政府的預算這邊啊因為上個禮拜行政院提出來之後呢它的附議是沒有通過的 是被否決的然後這邊沒有確定而導致的當初\n85799\t105741\t教育部在11月的時候有提出來的版本送布之後對 送院 送行政院送行政院沒錯 送院的這個情況之下呢結果就因為這個變數出現了我們還繼續跟地方政府溝通繼續跟地方政府溝通那我們也看到一件很重要的事情是在於說剛才布\n106942\t118493\t市長你這邊所說的是說財務的這部分因為原來目前已經有這個補助是到74億嘛對不對然後最多最多一直在增加的話可能會到達220億嘛對不對那如果這個情況下因為我剛剛聽到一個結果很重要是說這個\n124699\t138255\t因為各地在做營養午餐的這個差異性啊是有這個縣市嘛財源啊還有偏鄉供應的這個問題嘛那這種情況之下是不是在於說這個本質的性質是比較屬於地方性的\n139494\t154575\t對 營養午餐其實從地方制度法來看尤其是國民中小學屬於國民教育階段本來就屬於地方的選擇對 那如果在這個情況之下在目前通過的財政收支劃分法當中增加的是3000\n157418\t182011\t753億的這個情況之下地方財政授權法法地方多了3753億的情況之下如果這個市權可以獲得就是確認就是他多了這個情況之下他事實上有多的裁員去做這邊的關於新增的在如果我們訂了這個專法之後在對營養午餐的供給上有個法源讓他們更有資源去做這些事情包括的是營養師包括的是\n185854\t203448\t這個執行的秘書嘛我懂委員的意思所以我們必須要再找地方政府來協商而且可能每一個地方政府對於所獲配的財源會有不同的態度願意負擔的比例跟原則也不一所以這就是很困難的地方譬如說\n204428\t226183\t金門馬祖他們最近好像花蓮有比較多那他們願不願意我們過去補助偏向很多那他們願不願意多來提撥一些經費這些新增的這個稅收來源來做補助如果他們願意我們都很高興那我們中央這邊我們會如果我們在配置上能夠少一些那我們減少的部分可以減掉那\n226963\t239798\t我們也可以馬上就這個法的精神來請他們一起來努力來達成那可能有些縣市他可能覺得我們過去偏鄉比較多中央補助很多那我們貨配的財源不夠我們不希望中央斷了這個補助\n241980\t267068\t所以這個部分其實是有一些複雜度要去討論那真的還需要時間就是說我們也不曉得就是說環境上的變化形勢上的變化會這樣子一關過一關不過就是剛才我們所強調的不管是弱勢兒童的補助 營養午餐的補助中央廚房偏鄉計畫的補助改善或者是食材 可溯源的國產食材的補助其實我們每年都繼續在補助\n268348\t295714\t那我們真的很希望今年都還在預算內那明年不要因為財化法而有了這個問題那地方又不願意負擔那這個就會變成孩子被丟包我想財化法的衝擊不應該是這樣它目的是希望中央地方有一個均衡的財源地方有一些自主的財源可是這個就真的要談到權利跟義務就是說有比較多的自主財源的權利你就有一些義務那這個部分坦白講\n296314\t324892\t要從教育部的角度來談這個事情也不容易談好 但是我現在想要說的是從市長你的這個想法出來的時候就在於說的確的這個事情上面看起來是要經過了裁劃法或是說是我們現在的預算中央政府總預算通過之後當然就要看的是行政院他們的態度在十天之內是不是就公布生效或是說他要在可是不管怎樣 十天之內他要去做在這做憲法訴訟 當然都沒關係反正他 市長好像會\n326012\t343826\t時間真的會生效嗎?對,那知道這個情況之下,可是它一旦生效的時候,就是必須會做,除非它都被暫時處分等等,所以可能也沒有那麼快。但是重點是在於說,我們今天要召開這樣子的一個詢問,最重要的目的是說,想要問的問題是,確定應該是有必要去遞定這個專法嗎?對不對?\n345347\t368165\t我們希望能夠定,但是這遇到的問題也必須解決,現實上必須面對對,是要去定,那我們現在的在目前的這個情況之下的時候我們本黨就是也提出了我們本黨的這個意見,那我想就因為後來就是進入到修法的委會審查嘛,對不對,所以就想說的是法的精神我們會繼續討論是是是,那非常好,那我就想說,如果在這個以\n370126\t390731\t以現在的我們預計說要通過的情況下尤其是責任已經是放到地方政府上面去他事實上裁員多了3000多位的情況之下您剛所說的這個部分的擔憂其實我覺得是替教育部減輕了很多負擔所以應該您要比較輕鬆但是架構這是甜蜜的負擔補助給學生是甜蜜的負擔這問題是現實上\n393561\t421815\t如果沒有辦法去對所以這個就必須要靠法律上面透過這個架構法當中去做一下規範那我就想要進入到實質的部分想要針對我們民眾黨所提出來這個部分因為目前的知道的是在這個國中小這邊是有也百分之百在公立學校是這個支柱那我現在想我們民眾版的版本當中是把它提到的是說高中以下的部分那您的對這個如果高中生也納入到說可以受惠在營養午餐本您有什麼看法\n422917\t444085\t我們訂的布板的法其實就只高中以下但是坦白講現在問題比較多的是國民中小學因為你知道高中生的用餐他們自主性比較強你看那些建中北一女的那個中午的時候很多那個Uber Eats他們就是自己訂餐然後自己去福利社去買他們比較不太願意但有些像地方\n444565\t459538\t他是高中國中是完全中學他們也會辦可是你就會發現高中生參加的比例比較低那這部分我們認為國中小以當時中央的裁員補助地方來講那當然是國中小優先所以我們才會在大家的關心下從108年到現在\n461340\t484877\t其實每年陸續的補助經費在精進項目在增加然後也繼續就管理的部分有漏洞的部分我們也增加了很多的費用來讓這個相關的權責單位能夠有工具讓這個管理更好 施安更好好 可是現在如果財化法這個真的生效之後這個部分大部分的都是屬於縣市的學校嘛 對不對所以我說財化法沒有經過討論就做這樣子坦白講我們很難去\n489520\t505723\t不會 我是先替你我們一起來共同想辦法就在於說因為除了國立的這樣子的一個學校高中之外其實很多是屬於縣立縣市的基隆那這種情況之下的時候他有的財源他更可以去操作所以這部分就涉及授權的\n506804\t528028\t像台北市他可能採訪法之後他會增加四百、四、五百億嘛我看到,我不知道這不是謠言嘛,但是我看到的那個表是這樣那他可能我們這個對於這個他們的孩子吃的本來就我看他們那個條件標準就比其他縣市還好他一餐可能到七十幾塊、八十幾塊甚至有的聽說到上百那在這種狀況下在補助的比例上面我們將來要怎麼談就是說我們那沒有關係對\n531229\t549961\t那個次長我就先講到最後我很高興聽到說教育部的佈板當中就是有提到說把高中的上去有含高中就非常好那第二個部分呢我想要談的是說在這個公餐的形態當中因為您剛才也說了去年已經開了好幾次的公廳會這個部分那目前還是以\n550901\t570138\t自設廚房為主那在其他的部分還有鄰近學校供應中央廚房或是民營的團善的供應這種情況那我們在想說在有意見當中是對民營的這個團善的供應的情況它事實上好像它只中意到所謂的統餐跟合餐\n570798\t589670\t在這個地方就是因為財源的不足才有需要可是它在運送的時候可能有些問題就是它的穩定性和安全性所以在這種情況之下我們繼續說要把民營的部分把它拉進去把法律的明確性讓它有多元的前提在好運到草原的情況之下您認為這部分\n590350\t606305\t有這樣多元的請第四點把它加入用合約的方式來去規範您覺得如何委員會學法律非常清楚我們在共同供應契約裡面有詳定各種包括運送過程裡面它如果被計點點數多少要罰多少錢我想都非常詳細我個人非常關心其實我參觀過很多這個公辦這個民營的那個\n610529\t638132\t參和業者他們的公餐情況我們都實際上考察了那也去了解了那所以包括我也到日本去日本就純粹的公辦名言那他們把關一樣都很嚴格其實剛才有委員提到說日本的這個參和業者他們的這個幾十法每一項細項都很認真我也可以告訴我們委員其實台灣現在進步到現在也非常關心那有些個案的發生都很不幸我們也希望這些比例減少\n638932\t662854\t監察院對教育部的批評要求我們也都會持續在做這是一個進步的象徵我想有批評才會改進有改進才會進步我想我們都願意細心來接受所以說在沒有修法之前我個人也非常清楚我在當委員的時候到現在他是不斷地在精進我去訪問東京的那個國小的時候他跟我說他們也可以看到台灣的食材跟這個東西如果那不是假照的話\n663314\t680778\t他們認為台灣一餐60幾塊他們120塊我們吃的並不比他們差所以說這樣子的一個情況下我覺得專法如果要立它實質上的立就是希望孩子能夠得到更多孩子要得到更多我們中央地方一定要一起努力\n681018\t687381\t是是是然後最後一個問題就是關於在人力的部分那人力部分當然也涉及到財務嘛對不對所以這個等到這個財務財政劃分收支法這確認的時候就可以如果是我們的地方政府拿到就沒問題但是我現在的問題是在於說可以看見出來是在營養師還有所謂執行秘書在這個儲供這些部分我們都本黨都有些提供的一些做法包括是儲供就是應該500個人的時候呢學校500人的規模的時候都要有\n711771\t712231\t您對這個看法是怎麼樣?\n730988\t741981\t我想委員的建議因為很多版本那民眾黨團的這個版本的建議我們一定會納入一起來參作一起來參考好不好好 謝謝那我希望在這個情況下我們看在下兩頁就在於說\n744318\t765189\t有關於說這個有營養的午餐的這部分它實際上是我們整個完備營養三法的這一部分那如果把這塊部分把它加進來的話大概就是所有的我們政府跟我們民眾學生都是雙很多signing的部分那請我們部跟兩個院大家一起來合作好 謝謝委員的關心我們很感謝我們會繼續努力 謝謝好 謝謝次長跟署長 謝謝\n","txt":"有請廖安章兼次長委員好次長好 我要向你說聲學長好我們剛才從像下一頁我們剛才從朝野的立委上面的關於營養午餐的說明說明或是在詢答當中發現到大家可以看到有一些火花但是很重要的是我們全部的都是在為\n我們的新年就是什麼的學齡的學童這邊來做做他們的健康啊還包括的是在地的這個食材等等的健康還有國民健康這邊去做服務那現在這個情況之下我們現在想問到的問題是在於看到我們在看下一頁因為看到很多的爭執是在於說在下一頁我新增的那一部分在於說因為是才化法還有\n包括還有就是中央政府的預算這邊啊因為上個禮拜行政院提出來之後呢它的附議是沒有通過的 是被否決的然後這邊沒有確定而導致的當初\n教育部在11月的時候有提出來的版本送布之後對 送院 送行政院送行政院沒錯 送院的這個情況之下呢結果就因為這個變數出現了我們還繼續跟地方政府溝通繼續跟地方政府溝通那我們也看到一件很重要的事情是在於說剛才布\n市長你這邊所說的是說財務的這部分因為原來目前已經有這個補助是到74億嘛對不對然後最多最多一直在增加的話可能會到達220億嘛對不對那如果這個情況下因為我剛剛聽到一個結果很重要是說這個\n因為各地在做營養午餐的這個差異性啊是有這個縣市嘛財源啊還有偏鄉供應的這個問題嘛那這種情況之下是不是在於說這個本質的性質是比較屬於地方性的\n對 營養午餐其實從地方制度法來看尤其是國民中小學屬於國民教育階段本來就屬於地方的選擇對 那如果在這個情況之下在目前通過的財政收支劃分法當中增加的是3000\n753億的這個情況之下地方財政授權法法地方多了3753億的情況之下如果這個市權可以獲得就是確認就是他多了這個情況之下他事實上有多的裁員去做這邊的關於新增的在如果我們訂了這個專法之後在對營養午餐的供給上有個法源讓他們更有資源去做這些事情包括的是營養師包括的是\n這個執行的秘書嘛我懂委員的意思所以我們必須要再找地方政府來協商而且可能每一個地方政府對於所獲配的財源會有不同的態度願意負擔的比例跟原則也不一所以這就是很困難的地方譬如說\n金門馬祖他們最近好像花蓮有比較多那他們願不願意我們過去補助偏向很多那他們願不願意多來提撥一些經費這些新增的這個稅收來源來做補助如果他們願意我們都很高興那我們中央這邊我們會如果我們在配置上能夠少一些那我們減少的部分可以減掉那\n我們也可以馬上就這個法的精神來請他們一起來努力來達成那可能有些縣市他可能覺得我們過去偏鄉比較多中央補助很多那我們貨配的財源不夠我們不希望中央斷了這個補助\n所以這個部分其實是有一些複雜度要去討論那真的還需要時間就是說我們也不曉得就是說環境上的變化形勢上的變化會這樣子一關過一關不過就是剛才我們所強調的不管是弱勢兒童的補助 營養午餐的補助中央廚房偏鄉計畫的補助改善或者是食材 可溯源的國產食材的補助其實我們每年都繼續在補助\n那我們真的很希望今年都還在預算內那明年不要因為財化法而有了這個問題那地方又不願意負擔那這個就會變成孩子被丟包我想財化法的衝擊不應該是這樣它目的是希望中央地方有一個均衡的財源地方有一些自主的財源可是這個就真的要談到權利跟義務就是說有比較多的自主財源的權利你就有一些義務那這個部分坦白講\n要從教育部的角度來談這個事情也不容易談好 但是我現在想要說的是從市長你的這個想法出來的時候就在於說的確的這個事情上面看起來是要經過了裁劃法或是說是我們現在的預算中央政府總預算通過之後當然就要看的是行政院他們的態度在十天之內是不是就公布生效或是說他要在可是不管怎樣 十天之內他要去做在這做憲法訴訟 當然都沒關係反正他 市長好像會\n時間真的會生效嗎?對,那知道這個情況之下,可是它一旦生效的時候,就是必須會做,除非它都被暫時處分等等,所以可能也沒有那麼快。但是重點是在於說,我們今天要召開這樣子的一個詢問,最重要的目的是說,想要問的問題是,確定應該是有必要去遞定這個專法嗎?對不對?\n我們希望能夠定,但是這遇到的問題也必須解決,現實上必須面對對,是要去定,那我們現在的在目前的這個情況之下的時候我們本黨就是也提出了我們本黨的這個意見,那我想就因為後來就是進入到修法的委會審查嘛,對不對,所以就想說的是法的精神我們會繼續討論是是是,那非常好,那我就想說,如果在這個以\n以現在的我們預計說要通過的情況下尤其是責任已經是放到地方政府上面去他事實上裁員多了3000多位的情況之下您剛所說的這個部分的擔憂其實我覺得是替教育部減輕了很多負擔所以應該您要比較輕鬆但是架構這是甜蜜的負擔補助給學生是甜蜜的負擔這問題是現實上\n如果沒有辦法去對所以這個就必須要靠法律上面透過這個架構法當中去做一下規範那我就想要進入到實質的部分想要針對我們民眾黨所提出來這個部分因為目前的知道的是在這個國中小這邊是有也百分之百在公立學校是這個支柱那我現在想我們民眾版的版本當中是把它提到的是說高中以下的部分那您的對這個如果高中生也納入到說可以受惠在營養午餐本您有什麼看法\n我們訂的布板的法其實就只高中以下但是坦白講現在問題比較多的是國民中小學因為你知道高中生的用餐他們自主性比較強你看那些建中北一女的那個中午的時候很多那個Uber Eats他們就是自己訂餐然後自己去福利社去買他們比較不太願意但有些像地方\n他是高中國中是完全中學他們也會辦可是你就會發現高中生參加的比例比較低那這部分我們認為國中小以當時中央的裁員補助地方來講那當然是國中小優先所以我們才會在大家的關心下從108年到現在\n其實每年陸續的補助經費在精進項目在增加然後也繼續就管理的部分有漏洞的部分我們也增加了很多的費用來讓這個相關的權責單位能夠有工具讓這個管理更好 施安更好好 可是現在如果財化法這個真的生效之後這個部分大部分的都是屬於縣市的學校嘛 對不對所以我說財化法沒有經過討論就做這樣子坦白講我們很難去\n不會 我是先替你我們一起來共同想辦法就在於說因為除了國立的這樣子的一個學校高中之外其實很多是屬於縣立縣市的基隆那這種情況之下的時候他有的財源他更可以去操作所以這部分就涉及授權的\n像台北市他可能採訪法之後他會增加四百、四、五百億嘛我看到,我不知道這不是謠言嘛,但是我看到的那個表是這樣那他可能我們這個對於這個他們的孩子吃的本來就我看他們那個條件標準就比其他縣市還好他一餐可能到七十幾塊、八十幾塊甚至有的聽說到上百那在這種狀況下在補助的比例上面我們將來要怎麼談就是說我們那沒有關係對\n那個次長我就先講到最後我很高興聽到說教育部的佈板當中就是有提到說把高中的上去有含高中就非常好那第二個部分呢我想要談的是說在這個公餐的形態當中因為您剛才也說了去年已經開了好幾次的公廳會這個部分那目前還是以\n自設廚房為主那在其他的部分還有鄰近學校供應中央廚房或是民營的團善的供應這種情況那我們在想說在有意見當中是對民營的這個團善的供應的情況它事實上好像它只中意到所謂的統餐跟合餐\n在這個地方就是因為財源的不足才有需要可是它在運送的時候可能有些問題就是它的穩定性和安全性所以在這種情況之下我們繼續說要把民營的部分把它拉進去把法律的明確性讓它有多元的前提在好運到草原的情況之下您認為這部分\n有這樣多元的請第四點把它加入用合約的方式來去規範您覺得如何委員會學法律非常清楚我們在共同供應契約裡面有詳定各種包括運送過程裡面它如果被計點點數多少要罰多少錢我想都非常詳細我個人非常關心其實我參觀過很多這個公辦這個民營的那個\n參和業者他們的公餐情況我們都實際上考察了那也去了解了那所以包括我也到日本去日本就純粹的公辦名言那他們把關一樣都很嚴格其實剛才有委員提到說日本的這個參和業者他們的這個幾十法每一項細項都很認真我也可以告訴我們委員其實台灣現在進步到現在也非常關心那有些個案的發生都很不幸我們也希望這些比例減少\n監察院對教育部的批評要求我們也都會持續在做這是一個進步的象徵我想有批評才會改進有改進才會進步我想我們都願意細心來接受所以說在沒有修法之前我個人也非常清楚我在當委員的時候到現在他是不斷地在精進我去訪問東京的那個國小的時候他跟我說他們也可以看到台灣的食材跟這個東西如果那不是假照的話\n他們認為台灣一餐60幾塊他們120塊我們吃的並不比他們差所以說這樣子的一個情況下我覺得專法如果要立它實質上的立就是希望孩子能夠得到更多孩子要得到更多我們中央地方一定要一起努力\n是是是然後最後一個問題就是關於在人力的部分那人力部分當然也涉及到財務嘛對不對所以這個等到這個財務財政劃分收支法這確認的時候就可以如果是我們的地方政府拿到就沒問題但是我現在的問題是在於說可以看見出來是在營養師還有所謂執行秘書在這個儲供這些部分我們都本黨都有些提供的一些做法包括是儲供就是應該500個人的時候呢學校500人的規模的時候都要有\n您對這個看法是怎麼樣?\n我想委員的建議因為很多版本那民眾黨團的這個版本的建議我們一定會納入一起來參作一起來參考好不好好 謝謝那我希望在這個情況下我們看在下兩頁就在於說\n有關於說這個有營養的午餐的這部分它實際上是我們整個完備營養三法的這一部分那如果把這塊部分把它加進來的話大概就是所有的我們政府跟我們民眾學生都是雙很多signing的部分那請我們部跟兩個院大家一起來合作好 謝謝委員的關心我們很感謝我們會繼續努力 謝謝好 謝謝次長跟署長 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:14.346 --> 00:17.028\n有請廖安章兼次長委員好次長好我要向你說聲學長好我們剛才從像下一頁我們剛才從朝野的立委上面的關於營養午餐的說明說明或是在詢答當中發現到大家可以看到有一些火花但是很重要的是我們全部的都是在為\n\n00:44.305 --> 01:11.062\n我們的新年就是什麼的學齡的學童這邊來做做他們的健康啊還包括的是在地的這個食材等等的健康還有國民健康這邊去做服務那現在這個情況之下我們現在想問到的問題是在於看到我們在看下一頁因為看到很多的爭執是在於說在下一頁我新增的那一部分在於說因為是才化法還有\n\n01:12.743 --> 01:17.130\n包括還有就是中央政府的預算這邊啊因為上個禮拜行政院提出來之後呢它的附議是沒有通過的是被否決的然後這邊沒有確定而導致的當初\n\n01:25.799 --> 01:45.741\n教育部在11月的時候有提出來的版本送布之後對送院送行政院送行政院沒錯送院的這個情況之下呢結果就因為這個變數出現了我們還繼續跟地方政府溝通繼續跟地方政府溝通那我們也看到一件很重要的事情是在於說剛才布\n\n01:46.942 --> 01:58.493\n市長你這邊所說的是說財務的這部分因為原來目前已經有這個補助是到74億嘛對不對然後最多最多一直在增加的話可能會到達220億嘛對不對那如果這個情況下因為我剛剛聽到一個結果很重要是說這個\n\n02:04.699 --> 02:18.255\n因為各地在做營養午餐的這個差異性啊是有這個縣市嘛財源啊還有偏鄉供應的這個問題嘛那這種情況之下是不是在於說這個本質的性質是比較屬於地方性的\n\n02:19.494 --> 02:34.575\n對營養午餐其實從地方制度法來看尤其是國民中小學屬於國民教育階段本來就屬於地方的選擇對那如果在這個情況之下在目前通過的財政收支劃分法當中增加的是3000\n\n02:37.418 --> 03:02.011\n753億的這個情況之下地方財政授權法法地方多了3753億的情況之下如果這個市權可以獲得就是確認就是他多了這個情況之下他事實上有多的裁員去做這邊的關於新增的在如果我們訂了這個專法之後在對營養午餐的供給上有個法源讓他們更有資源去做這些事情包括的是營養師包括的是\n\n03:05.854 --> 03:23.448\n這個執行的秘書嘛我懂委員的意思所以我們必須要再找地方政府來協商而且可能每一個地方政府對於所獲配的財源會有不同的態度願意負擔的比例跟原則也不一所以這就是很困難的地方譬如說\n\n03:24.428 --> 03:46.183\n金門馬祖他們最近好像花蓮有比較多那他們願不願意我們過去補助偏向很多那他們願不願意多來提撥一些經費這些新增的這個稅收來源來做補助如果他們願意我們都很高興那我們中央這邊我們會如果我們在配置上能夠少一些那我們減少的部分可以減掉那\n\n03:46.963 --> 03:59.798\n我們也可以馬上就這個法的精神來請他們一起來努力來達成那可能有些縣市他可能覺得我們過去偏鄉比較多中央補助很多那我們貨配的財源不夠我們不希望中央斷了這個補助\n\n04:01.980 --> 04:27.068\n所以這個部分其實是有一些複雜度要去討論那真的還需要時間就是說我們也不曉得就是說環境上的變化形勢上的變化會這樣子一關過一關不過就是剛才我們所強調的不管是弱勢兒童的補助營養午餐的補助中央廚房偏鄉計畫的補助改善或者是食材可溯源的國產食材的補助其實我們每年都繼續在補助\n\n04:28.348 --> 04:55.714\n那我們真的很希望今年都還在預算內那明年不要因為財化法而有了這個問題那地方又不願意負擔那這個就會變成孩子被丟包我想財化法的衝擊不應該是這樣它目的是希望中央地方有一個均衡的財源地方有一些自主的財源可是這個就真的要談到權利跟義務就是說有比較多的自主財源的權利你就有一些義務那這個部分坦白講\n\n04:56.314 --> 05:24.892\n要從教育部的角度來談這個事情也不容易談好但是我現在想要說的是從市長你的這個想法出來的時候就在於說的確的這個事情上面看起來是要經過了裁劃法或是說是我們現在的預算中央政府總預算通過之後當然就要看的是行政院他們的態度在十天之內是不是就公布生效或是說他要在可是不管怎樣十天之內他要去做在這做憲法訴訟當然都沒關係反正他市長好像會\n\n05:26.012 --> 05:43.826\n時間真的會生效嗎?對,那知道這個情況之下,可是它一旦生效的時候,就是必須會做,除非它都被暫時處分等等,所以可能也沒有那麼快。但是重點是在於說,我們今天要召開這樣子的一個詢問,最重要的目的是說,想要問的問題是,確定應該是有必要去遞定這個專法嗎?對不對?\n\n05:45.347 --> 06:08.165\n我們希望能夠定,但是這遇到的問題也必須解決,現實上必須面對對,是要去定,那我們現在的在目前的這個情況之下的時候我們本黨就是也提出了我們本黨的這個意見,那我想就因為後來就是進入到修法的委會審查嘛,對不對,所以就想說的是法的精神我們會繼續討論是是是,那非常好,那我就想說,如果在這個以\n\n06:10.126 --> 06:30.731\n以現在的我們預計說要通過的情況下尤其是責任已經是放到地方政府上面去他事實上裁員多了3000多位的情況之下您剛所說的這個部分的擔憂其實我覺得是替教育部減輕了很多負擔所以應該您要比較輕鬆但是架構這是甜蜜的負擔補助給學生是甜蜜的負擔這問題是現實上\n\n06:33.561 --> 07:01.815\n如果沒有辦法去對所以這個就必須要靠法律上面透過這個架構法當中去做一下規範那我就想要進入到實質的部分想要針對我們民眾黨所提出來這個部分因為目前的知道的是在這個國中小這邊是有也百分之百在公立學校是這個支柱那我現在想我們民眾版的版本當中是把它提到的是說高中以下的部分那您的對這個如果高中生也納入到說可以受惠在營養午餐本您有什麼看法\n\n07:02.917 --> 07:24.085\n我們訂的布板的法其實就只高中以下但是坦白講現在問題比較多的是國民中小學因為你知道高中生的用餐他們自主性比較強你看那些建中北一女的那個中午的時候很多那個UberEats他們就是自己訂餐然後自己去福利社去買他們比較不太願意但有些像地方\n\n07:24.565 --> 07:39.538\n他是高中國中是完全中學他們也會辦可是你就會發現高中生參加的比例比較低那這部分我們認為國中小以當時中央的裁員補助地方來講那當然是國中小優先所以我們才會在大家的關心下從108年到現在\n\n07:41.340 --> 08:04.877\n其實每年陸續的補助經費在精進項目在增加然後也繼續就管理的部分有漏洞的部分我們也增加了很多的費用來讓這個相關的權責單位能夠有工具讓這個管理更好施安更好好可是現在如果財化法這個真的生效之後這個部分大部分的都是屬於縣市的學校嘛對不對所以我說財化法沒有經過討論就做這樣子坦白講我們很難去\n\n08:09.520 --> 08:25.723\n不會我是先替你我們一起來共同想辦法就在於說因為除了國立的這樣子的一個學校高中之外其實很多是屬於縣立縣市的基隆那這種情況之下的時候他有的財源他更可以去操作所以這部分就涉及授權的\n\n08:26.804 --> 08:48.028\n像台北市他可能採訪法之後他會增加四百、四、五百億嘛我看到,我不知道這不是謠言嘛,但是我看到的那個表是這樣那他可能我們這個對於這個他們的孩子吃的本來就我看他們那個條件標準就比其他縣市還好他一餐可能到七十幾塊、八十幾塊甚至有的聽說到上百那在這種狀況下在補助的比例上面我們將來要怎麼談就是說我們那沒有關係對\n\n08:51.229 --> 09:09.961\n那個次長我就先講到最後我很高興聽到說教育部的佈板當中就是有提到說把高中的上去有含高中就非常好那第二個部分呢我想要談的是說在這個公餐的形態當中因為您剛才也說了去年已經開了好幾次的公廳會這個部分那目前還是以\n\n09:10.901 --> 09:30.138\n自設廚房為主那在其他的部分還有鄰近學校供應中央廚房或是民營的團善的供應這種情況那我們在想說在有意見當中是對民營的這個團善的供應的情況它事實上好像它只中意到所謂的統餐跟合餐\n\n09:30.798 --> 09:49.670\n在這個地方就是因為財源的不足才有需要可是它在運送的時候可能有些問題就是它的穩定性和安全性所以在這種情況之下我們繼續說要把民營的部分把它拉進去把法律的明確性讓它有多元的前提在好運到草原的情況之下您認為這部分\n\n09:50.350 --> 10:06.305\n有這樣多元的請第四點把它加入用合約的方式來去規範您覺得如何委員會學法律非常清楚我們在共同供應契約裡面有詳定各種包括運送過程裡面它如果被計點點數多少要罰多少錢我想都非常詳細我個人非常關心其實我參觀過很多這個公辦這個民營的那個\n\n10:10.529 --> 10:38.132\n參和業者他們的公餐情況我們都實際上考察了那也去了解了那所以包括我也到日本去日本就純粹的公辦名言那他們把關一樣都很嚴格其實剛才有委員提到說日本的這個參和業者他們的這個幾十法每一項細項都很認真我也可以告訴我們委員其實台灣現在進步到現在也非常關心那有些個案的發生都很不幸我們也希望這些比例減少\n\n10:38.932 --> 11:02.854\n監察院對教育部的批評要求我們也都會持續在做這是一個進步的象徵我想有批評才會改進有改進才會進步我想我們都願意細心來接受所以說在沒有修法之前我個人也非常清楚我在當委員的時候到現在他是不斷地在精進我去訪問東京的那個國小的時候他跟我說他們也可以看到台灣的食材跟這個東西如果那不是假照的話\n\n11:03.314 --> 11:20.778\n他們認為台灣一餐60幾塊他們120塊我們吃的並不比他們差所以說這樣子的一個情況下我覺得專法如果要立它實質上的立就是希望孩子能夠得到更多孩子要得到更多我們中央地方一定要一起努力\n\n11:21.018 --> 11:27.381\n是是是然後最後一個問題就是關於在人力的部分那人力部分當然也涉及到財務嘛對不對所以這個等到這個財務財政劃分收支法這確認的時候就可以如果是我們的地方政府拿到就沒問題但是我現在的問題是在於說可以看見出來是在營養師還有所謂執行秘書在這個儲供這些部分我們都本黨都有些提供的一些做法包括是儲供就是應該500個人的時候呢學校500人的規模的時候都要有\n\n11:51.771 --> 11:52.231\n您對這個看法是怎麼樣?\n\n12:10.988 --> 12:21.981\n我想委員的建議因為很多版本那民眾黨團的這個版本的建議我們一定會納入一起來參作一起來參考好不好好謝謝那我希望在這個情況下我們看在下兩頁就在於說\n\n12:24.318 --> 12:45.189\n有關於說這個有營養的午餐的這部分它實際上是我們整個完備營養三法的這一部分那如果把這塊部分把它加進來的話大概就是所有的我們政府跟我們民眾學生都是雙很多signing的部分那請我們部跟兩個院大家一起來合作好謝謝委員的關心我們很感謝我們會繼續努力謝謝好謝謝次長跟署長謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":14.346,"end":17.028,"text":"有請廖安章兼次長委員好次長好 我要向你說聲學長好我們剛才從像下一頁我們剛才從朝野的立委上面的關於營養午餐的說明說明或是在詢答當中發現到大家可以看到有一些火花但是很重要的是我們全部的都是在為"},{"start":44.305,"end":71.062,"text":"我們的新年就是什麼的學齡的學童這邊來做做他們的健康啊還包括的是在地的這個食材等等的健康還有國民健康這邊去做服務那現在這個情況之下我們現在想問到的問題是在於看到我們在看下一頁因為看到很多的爭執是在於說在下一頁我新增的那一部分在於說因為是才化法還有"},{"start":72.743,"end":77.13,"text":"包括還有就是中央政府的預算這邊啊因為上個禮拜行政院提出來之後呢它的附議是沒有通過的 是被否決的然後這邊沒有確定而導致的當初"},{"start":85.799,"end":105.741,"text":"教育部在11月的時候有提出來的版本送布之後對 送院 送行政院送行政院沒錯 送院的這個情況之下呢結果就因為這個變數出現了我們還繼續跟地方政府溝通繼續跟地方政府溝通那我們也看到一件很重要的事情是在於說剛才布"},{"start":106.942,"end":118.493,"text":"市長你這邊所說的是說財務的這部分因為原來目前已經有這個補助是到74億嘛對不對然後最多最多一直在增加的話可能會到達220億嘛對不對那如果這個情況下因為我剛剛聽到一個結果很重要是說這個"},{"start":124.699,"end":138.255,"text":"因為各地在做營養午餐的這個差異性啊是有這個縣市嘛財源啊還有偏鄉供應的這個問題嘛那這種情況之下是不是在於說這個本質的性質是比較屬於地方性的"},{"start":139.494,"end":154.575,"text":"對 營養午餐其實從地方制度法來看尤其是國民中小學屬於國民教育階段本來就屬於地方的選擇對 那如果在這個情況之下在目前通過的財政收支劃分法當中增加的是3000"},{"start":157.418,"end":182.011,"text":"753億的這個情況之下地方財政授權法法地方多了3753億的情況之下如果這個市權可以獲得就是確認就是他多了這個情況之下他事實上有多的裁員去做這邊的關於新增的在如果我們訂了這個專法之後在對營養午餐的供給上有個法源讓他們更有資源去做這些事情包括的是營養師包括的是"},{"start":185.854,"end":203.448,"text":"這個執行的秘書嘛我懂委員的意思所以我們必須要再找地方政府來協商而且可能每一個地方政府對於所獲配的財源會有不同的態度願意負擔的比例跟原則也不一所以這就是很困難的地方譬如說"},{"start":204.428,"end":226.183,"text":"金門馬祖他們最近好像花蓮有比較多那他們願不願意我們過去補助偏向很多那他們願不願意多來提撥一些經費這些新增的這個稅收來源來做補助如果他們願意我們都很高興那我們中央這邊我們會如果我們在配置上能夠少一些那我們減少的部分可以減掉那"},{"start":226.963,"end":239.798,"text":"我們也可以馬上就這個法的精神來請他們一起來努力來達成那可能有些縣市他可能覺得我們過去偏鄉比較多中央補助很多那我們貨配的財源不夠我們不希望中央斷了這個補助"},{"start":241.98,"end":267.068,"text":"所以這個部分其實是有一些複雜度要去討論那真的還需要時間就是說我們也不曉得就是說環境上的變化形勢上的變化會這樣子一關過一關不過就是剛才我們所強調的不管是弱勢兒童的補助 營養午餐的補助中央廚房偏鄉計畫的補助改善或者是食材 可溯源的國產食材的補助其實我們每年都繼續在補助"},{"start":268.348,"end":295.714,"text":"那我們真的很希望今年都還在預算內那明年不要因為財化法而有了這個問題那地方又不願意負擔那這個就會變成孩子被丟包我想財化法的衝擊不應該是這樣它目的是希望中央地方有一個均衡的財源地方有一些自主的財源可是這個就真的要談到權利跟義務就是說有比較多的自主財源的權利你就有一些義務那這個部分坦白講"},{"start":296.314,"end":324.892,"text":"要從教育部的角度來談這個事情也不容易談好 但是我現在想要說的是從市長你的這個想法出來的時候就在於說的確的這個事情上面看起來是要經過了裁劃法或是說是我們現在的預算中央政府總預算通過之後當然就要看的是行政院他們的態度在十天之內是不是就公布生效或是說他要在可是不管怎樣 十天之內他要去做在這做憲法訴訟 當然都沒關係反正他 市長好像會"},{"start":326.012,"end":343.826,"text":"時間真的會生效嗎?對,那知道這個情況之下,可是它一旦生效的時候,就是必須會做,除非它都被暫時處分等等,所以可能也沒有那麼快。但是重點是在於說,我們今天要召開這樣子的一個詢問,最重要的目的是說,想要問的問題是,確定應該是有必要去遞定這個專法嗎?對不對?"},{"start":345.347,"end":368.165,"text":"我們希望能夠定,但是這遇到的問題也必須解決,現實上必須面對對,是要去定,那我們現在的在目前的這個情況之下的時候我們本黨就是也提出了我們本黨的這個意見,那我想就因為後來就是進入到修法的委會審查嘛,對不對,所以就想說的是法的精神我們會繼續討論是是是,那非常好,那我就想說,如果在這個以"},{"start":370.126,"end":390.731,"text":"以現在的我們預計說要通過的情況下尤其是責任已經是放到地方政府上面去他事實上裁員多了3000多位的情況之下您剛所說的這個部分的擔憂其實我覺得是替教育部減輕了很多負擔所以應該您要比較輕鬆但是架構這是甜蜜的負擔補助給學生是甜蜜的負擔這問題是現實上"},{"start":393.561,"end":421.815,"text":"如果沒有辦法去對所以這個就必須要靠法律上面透過這個架構法當中去做一下規範那我就想要進入到實質的部分想要針對我們民眾黨所提出來這個部分因為目前的知道的是在這個國中小這邊是有也百分之百在公立學校是這個支柱那我現在想我們民眾版的版本當中是把它提到的是說高中以下的部分那您的對這個如果高中生也納入到說可以受惠在營養午餐本您有什麼看法"},{"start":422.917,"end":444.085,"text":"我們訂的布板的法其實就只高中以下但是坦白講現在問題比較多的是國民中小學因為你知道高中生的用餐他們自主性比較強你看那些建中北一女的那個中午的時候很多那個Uber Eats他們就是自己訂餐然後自己去福利社去買他們比較不太願意但有些像地方"},{"start":444.565,"end":459.538,"text":"他是高中國中是完全中學他們也會辦可是你就會發現高中生參加的比例比較低那這部分我們認為國中小以當時中央的裁員補助地方來講那當然是國中小優先所以我們才會在大家的關心下從108年到現在"},{"start":461.34,"end":484.877,"text":"其實每年陸續的補助經費在精進項目在增加然後也繼續就管理的部分有漏洞的部分我們也增加了很多的費用來讓這個相關的權責單位能夠有工具讓這個管理更好 施安更好好 可是現在如果財化法這個真的生效之後這個部分大部分的都是屬於縣市的學校嘛 對不對所以我說財化法沒有經過討論就做這樣子坦白講我們很難去"},{"start":489.52,"end":505.723,"text":"不會 我是先替你我們一起來共同想辦法就在於說因為除了國立的這樣子的一個學校高中之外其實很多是屬於縣立縣市的基隆那這種情況之下的時候他有的財源他更可以去操作所以這部分就涉及授權的"},{"start":506.804,"end":528.028,"text":"像台北市他可能採訪法之後他會增加四百、四、五百億嘛我看到,我不知道這不是謠言嘛,但是我看到的那個表是這樣那他可能我們這個對於這個他們的孩子吃的本來就我看他們那個條件標準就比其他縣市還好他一餐可能到七十幾塊、八十幾塊甚至有的聽說到上百那在這種狀況下在補助的比例上面我們將來要怎麼談就是說我們那沒有關係對"},{"start":531.229,"end":549.961,"text":"那個次長我就先講到最後我很高興聽到說教育部的佈板當中就是有提到說把高中的上去有含高中就非常好那第二個部分呢我想要談的是說在這個公餐的形態當中因為您剛才也說了去年已經開了好幾次的公廳會這個部分那目前還是以"},{"start":550.901,"end":570.138,"text":"自設廚房為主那在其他的部分還有鄰近學校供應中央廚房或是民營的團善的供應這種情況那我們在想說在有意見當中是對民營的這個團善的供應的情況它事實上好像它只中意到所謂的統餐跟合餐"},{"start":570.798,"end":589.67,"text":"在這個地方就是因為財源的不足才有需要可是它在運送的時候可能有些問題就是它的穩定性和安全性所以在這種情況之下我們繼續說要把民營的部分把它拉進去把法律的明確性讓它有多元的前提在好運到草原的情況之下您認為這部分"},{"start":590.35,"end":606.305,"text":"有這樣多元的請第四點把它加入用合約的方式來去規範您覺得如何委員會學法律非常清楚我們在共同供應契約裡面有詳定各種包括運送過程裡面它如果被計點點數多少要罰多少錢我想都非常詳細我個人非常關心其實我參觀過很多這個公辦這個民營的那個"},{"start":610.529,"end":638.132,"text":"參和業者他們的公餐情況我們都實際上考察了那也去了解了那所以包括我也到日本去日本就純粹的公辦名言那他們把關一樣都很嚴格其實剛才有委員提到說日本的這個參和業者他們的這個幾十法每一項細項都很認真我也可以告訴我們委員其實台灣現在進步到現在也非常關心那有些個案的發生都很不幸我們也希望這些比例減少"},{"start":638.932,"end":662.854,"text":"監察院對教育部的批評要求我們也都會持續在做這是一個進步的象徵我想有批評才會改進有改進才會進步我想我們都願意細心來接受所以說在沒有修法之前我個人也非常清楚我在當委員的時候到現在他是不斷地在精進我去訪問東京的那個國小的時候他跟我說他們也可以看到台灣的食材跟這個東西如果那不是假照的話"},{"start":663.314,"end":680.778,"text":"他們認為台灣一餐60幾塊他們120塊我們吃的並不比他們差所以說這樣子的一個情況下我覺得專法如果要立它實質上的立就是希望孩子能夠得到更多孩子要得到更多我們中央地方一定要一起努力"},{"start":681.018,"end":687.381,"text":"是是是然後最後一個問題就是關於在人力的部分那人力部分當然也涉及到財務嘛對不對所以這個等到這個財務財政劃分收支法這確認的時候就可以如果是我們的地方政府拿到就沒問題但是我現在的問題是在於說可以看見出來是在營養師還有所謂執行秘書在這個儲供這些部分我們都本黨都有些提供的一些做法包括是儲供就是應該500個人的時候呢學校500人的規模的時候都要有"},{"start":711.771,"end":712.231,"text":"您對這個看法是怎麼樣?"},{"start":730.988,"end":741.981,"text":"我想委員的建議因為很多版本那民眾黨團的這個版本的建議我們一定會納入一起來參作一起來參考好不好好 謝謝那我希望在這個情況下我們看在下兩頁就在於說"},{"start":744.318,"end":765.189,"text":"有關於說這個有營養的午餐的這部分它實際上是我們整個完備營養三法的這一部分那如果把這塊部分把它加進來的話大概就是所有的我們政府跟我們民眾學生都是雙很多signing的部分那請我們部跟兩個院大家一起來合作好 謝謝委員的關心我們很感謝我們會繼續努力 謝謝好 謝謝次長跟署長 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":591,"blocks":[["劉委員書彬：（11時19分）有請張廖萬堅次長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員好。"],["劉委員書彬：次長好，我要向你說聲學長好。"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝。"],["劉委員書彬：我們剛才從朝野立委關於營養午餐的詢答與說明當中，大家可以看到有一些火花，但是很重要的是我們全部都是在為我們學齡學童的健康，包括在地食材等等的健康，還有國民健康在服務。現在這個情況之下，我們現在想問的問題是，我們看到很多爭執是在於財劃法，包括中央政府的預算，上個禮拜行政院提出覆議，但覆議並沒有通過，是被否決了，因為這邊沒有確定而導致當初教育部在11月的時候提出來的版本送部之後……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，送院，送行政院。"],["劉委員書彬：送行政院，沒錯，送院的情況之下，結果就因為這個變數出現了，導致……"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們還繼續跟地方政府溝通。"],["劉委員書彬：繼續跟地方政府溝通。我們也看到一件很重要的事情在於，次長你這邊所說的是財務這部分因為目前已經有補助到74億，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，每年。"],["劉委員書彬：然後最多一直再增加的話，可能會到達220億，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["劉委員書彬：如果這個情況，我剛才聽到一個結果很重要，因為各地在做營養午餐的差異性是有縣市、財源，還有偏鄉供應等等問題，在這種情況之下，是不是在於這個本質的性質是比較屬於地方性的？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，營養午餐其實從地方制度法來看，尤其是國民中小學屬於國民教育階段，本來就屬於地方的權責。"],["劉委員書彬：對。如果在這個情況之下，在目前通過的財政收支劃分法當中，增加的是3,753億的情況之下，地方多了3,753億的情況之下，如果事權可以獲得確認，就是在多了的情況之下，它事實上有多了財源去做關於新增的，如果我們訂了這個專法之後，在對營養午餐的供給上有了法源，讓他們更有資源去做這件事情，包括營養師、包括執行秘書、包括廚工……"],["張廖次長萬堅：我懂委員的意思。"],["劉委員書彬：是不是就有比較多的……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，我懂委員的意思，就是說我們必須要再找地方政府來協商，而且可能每個地方政府對於所獲配的財源會有不同的態度，願意負擔的比例跟原則也不一，所以這就是很困難的地方，譬如說，金門、馬祖、花蓮他們好像有比較多，我們過去補助偏鄉很多，他們願不願意多提撥一些經費，這些新增的稅收來源來做補助？如果他們願意，我們當然很高興，我們中央這邊如果在配置上能夠少一些，那我們減少的部分可以減掉，我們也可以馬上就這個法的精神請他們一起努力來達成，但可能有些縣市覺得過去偏鄉比較多，中央補助很多，所獲配的財源不夠，並不希望中央斷了這個補助，所以這個部分其實是有一些複雜度要去討論，真的還需要時間，就是說我們也不曉得環境上的變化、形勢上的變化會這樣子，一關過一關。不過，就是剛才我們所強調的，不管是弱勢兒童的補助、營養午餐的補助、中央廚房偏鄉計畫的補助改善，或者是可溯源國產食材的補助，其實我們每年都繼續在補助，我們真的很希望今年都還在預算內，明年不要因為財劃法而有了問題，地方又不願意負擔，就會變成孩子被丟包，我想財劃法的衝擊不應該是這樣，它目的是希望中央、地方有一個均衡的財源，地方有一些自主的財源，可是這個就真的要談到權利跟義務，就是有比較多的自主財源的權利，就有一些義務。"],["劉委員書彬：對。"],["張廖次長萬堅：這個部分坦白講，要從教育部的角度來談這個事情也不容易談。"],["劉委員書彬：好，但是我現在想要說的是，次長，你這個想法出來的時候就在於，的確這個事情看起來是要經過財劃法，我們說是我們現在的預算，就是中央政府總預算通過之後，當然就要看行政院他們的態度，因為在10天之內是不是就公布生效，或是說他要……可是不管怎麼樣，10天之內要再去做憲法訴訟，那都沒關係，反正至少10天之內會生效。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，委員學法律應該知道……"],["劉委員書彬：對，知道這個情況之下，可是它一旦生效之後就是必須做，除非它被暫時處分等等，可是可能也沒有那麼快。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["劉委員書彬：但是重點在於，我們今天要召開這樣子的詢答，最重要目的，想要問的問題是確定應該有必要去訂定這個專法，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們希望能夠訂，但是遇到的問題也必須解決，現實上必須面對。"],["劉委員書彬：好，沒關係，是要去訂，在目前這個情況之下，本黨也提出本黨的意見，因為未來修法就會進入委員會審查，對不對？所以我想說的是……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，法的精神我們會繼續討論。"],["劉委員書彬：是，那非常好。我想如果以現在，我必須說是通過的情況下，尤其責任已經是放到地方政府了，事實上財源多了三千多億的情況之下，您剛剛所說的這個部分的擔憂，其實我覺得是替教育部減輕了很多負擔，所以應該你會比較輕鬆，但是架構……"],["張廖次長萬堅：這是甜蜜的負擔，補助給學生是甜蜜的負擔，但問題是現實上如果沒有辦法去……"],["劉委員書彬：對，所以這就必須要靠法律上透過這個架構法當中去做一下規範。我就想要進入到實質的部分，想要針對我們民眾黨所提出來這個部分，因為目前知道的是國中小這邊是有，而且公立學校是百分之百有資助，我們民眾黨的版本當中是把它提到高中以下的部分，您對於將高中生也納入營養午餐可以受惠，你有沒有什麼看法？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們訂的部版的法其實就指高中以下。"],["劉委員書彬：喔，真的太好了。"],["張廖次長萬堅：但是坦白講，現在問題比較多的是國民中小學，因為你知道高中生的用餐，他們自主性比較強，你看建中、北一女中午的時候很多Uber Eats，他們就是自己訂餐，然後自己去福利社買，他們比較不太願意，有些地方的高中、國中是完全中學，他們也會辦，可是你就會發現高中生參加的比例比較低，這部分我們認為國中小，依當時中央財源補助地方來講，當然是以國中小優先，所以我們才會在大家關心下，從108年到現在，其實每年陸續的補助經費在精進、項目在增加，然後也繼續就管理的部分、有漏洞的部分，我們也增加了很多費用讓相關的權責單位能夠有工具，讓管理更好、食安更好。"],["劉委員書彬：好。可是如果財劃法真的生效之後，大部分都是屬於縣市的學校嘛，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：所以我說財劃法沒有經過討論就做這樣子，坦白講，我們很難去……"],["劉委員書彬：不會，我們現在一起來共同想辦法，因為除了國立高中學校之外，其實很多是屬於縣市的……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，完全中學。"],["劉委員書彬：在這種情況之下，它有了財源，更可以去操作，所以這部分就涉及授權縣市政府去進行。"],["張廖次長萬堅：像臺北市在財劃法修正之後增加四、五百億，我不知道這是不是謠言，因為我看到那個表是這樣，他們的孩子所吃的，我看他們那個條件標準本來就比其他縣市還好了，一餐可能到七十幾塊、八十幾塊，甚至聽說有的到上百，在這種狀況下，在補助的比例上面，我們將來要怎麼談？就是說，我們現在……"],["劉委員書彬：那沒有關係，次長，我很高興聽到教育部部版當中就有提到把高中包含上去。"],["張廖次長萬堅：有含高中。"],["劉委員書彬：這就非常好。第二個部分我想要談的是供餐的型態，您剛才也說去年已經開了好幾次公聽會，目前還是以自設廚房為主，在其他部分，還有鄰近學校供應、中央廚房，或是民營團膳供應這種情況，有意見的是民營團膳供應的情況，好像只有桶餐跟盒餐。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["劉委員書彬：這個地方就是因為財源不足才有需要，可是在運送上可能有些問題，就是穩定性跟安全性，所以在這種情況之下，我們基於要把民營部分的法律明確性，讓它更多元，以及考慮到財源的情況下，您認為這部分加入第四點，用合約的方式去規範，您覺得如何？"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員是學法律的，非常清楚，我們在共同供應契約裡面有詳定各種，包括運送過程，如果被記點、點數多少要罰多少錢，我想都非常詳細，我個人非常關心，其實我參觀過很多民營餐盒業者的供餐情況，我們都實際上考察了、也去了解了，包括我也到日本去，日本就純粹的公辦民營，他們把關一樣都很嚴格。其實剛才有委員提到，日本的給食法每一項細項都很認真，我也可以告訴委員，其實臺灣進步到現在也非常關心，有些個案的發生都很不幸，我們也希望比例減少，監察院對教育部的批評要求，我們也都會持續在做，這是一個進步的象徵，我想有批評才會改進，有改進才會進步，我們都願意虛心來接受，所以在沒有修法之前，我個人也非常清楚，我在當委員的時候到現在，它是不斷地在精進。我去訪問東京那個國小的時候，跟我說他們也可以看到臺灣的食材跟這個東西，如果那不是照假的話，他們認為臺灣一餐六十幾塊，他們要120塊，我們吃的並不比他們差，在這樣子的情況下，我覺得專法如果要立，實質上的立，就是希望孩子能夠得到更多，當孩子要得到更多，中央、地方一定要一起努力。"],["劉委員書彬：是、是、是。最後一個問題，就是關於在人力的部分，人力部分當然涉及到財務，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["劉委員書彬：所以這個等到財政收支劃分法確認的時候就可以，如果是地方政府拿到就沒問題，但是我現在的問題是可以看出來在營養師、還有執行秘書、在廚工這些部分，本黨都有提供一些作法。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好。"],["劉委員書彬：包括學校在500人規模的時候都要有一個營養師；包括在執行秘書當中都有，因為可以跟營養師一樣；第三個部分在廚工，我們希望以日本的，但是我們在調高，因為先求有再求好，希望學校裡面大概就是1：100的比例去進行，您對這個看法是怎麼樣？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想委員的建議因為很多版本，那民眾黨團的版本建議，我們一定會納入一起來參酌、一起來參考、一起來討論，好不好？"],["劉委員書彬：好，謝謝。希望在這個情況下，我們看到關於營養午餐的部分，它實際上是整個完備營養三法的一部分，如果把這部分加下去的話，大概所有政府、民眾跟學生都是三贏的，請教育部跟兩院一起來合作，謝謝。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員的關心，我們很感謝，我們會繼續努力，謝謝。"],["劉委員書彬：謝謝次長跟署長。"],["主席：謝謝劉書彬委員的質詢。","待會在陳秀寳委員質詢後，我們休息5分鐘。","接著繼續請郭昱晴委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","洪孟楷","王育敏","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","陳秀寳","葉元之","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","林宜瑾","劉書彬","郭昱晴","范雲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林倩綺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","吳思瑤","李坤城","陳培瑜"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(二) 審\n查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 (三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐\n法草案」案、(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等\n20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員黃健豪等 20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、\n( 七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21 人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案、 ( 八) 審查委員林倩綺等 21 人擬具\n「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案、 ( 九 ) 審查委員鍾佳濱等 17 人擬具「學校午餐法草案」\n案、(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十一) 審查委員張雅\n琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午\n餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案、\n(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十六) 審查委員葉元之等\n20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草\n案」案、(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案、(十九) 審查委員劉建國等\n17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案、(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐\n法草案」案、(二十一) 審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」\n案、(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案（僅進行詢答）；二、審\n查「運動產業發展條例」：(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及\n第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第\n二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展\n條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業\n發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二\n條條文修正草案」案、(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」、(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1142901_00003"}}}