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\"部\", \"start\": 911.692, \"end\": 912.192, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 912.192, \"end\": 912.552, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 912.552, \"end\": 912.732, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 912.732, \"end\": 913.153, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"否\", \"start\": 913.153, \"end\": 914.693, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"則\"}, {\"word\": \"漲\"}, {\"word\": \"價\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 914.693, \"end\": 914.813, \"score\": 0.703}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 914.813, \"end\": 914.934, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 914.934, \"end\": 915.094, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 915.094, \"end\": 915.294, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"星\", \"start\": 915.294, \"end\": 916.174, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 916.174, \"end\": 916.774, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 916.774, \"end\": 916.975, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 916.975, \"end\": 917.155, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 917.155, \"end\": 917.355, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 917.355, \"end\": 917.595, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 917.595, \"end\": 917.975, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 917.975, \"end\": 918.355, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 918.355, \"end\": 918.675, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 918.675, \"end\": 918.835, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 918.835, \"end\": 919.076, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"遵\", \"start\": 919.076, \"end\": 919.336, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"守\", \"start\": 919.336, \"end\": 919.476, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 919.476, \"end\": 919.496, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 919.496, \"end\": 919.516, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,357 --> 00:00:10,868\n謝謝主席有請經濟部的郭部長\n\n2\n00:00:18,956 --> 00:00:45,635\n委員好部長你好這個我們看到這個防衛內政部這個防衛韌性擴編他的範圍要推廣到經濟部交通部村里長幹事等等他內政部喊的防災是要目標10萬人整個來講就是目標40萬的民力\n\n3\n00:00:47,237 --> 00:01:00,794\n這個整體感覺好像台灣快打仗的樣子喔要全民訓練皆兵啊這個請問請問他事先有沒有跟你這邊有沒有跟你聊過這個事情有沒有內政部有沒有跟你談過這個事\n\n4\n00:01:02,155 --> 00:01:28,311\n這個我們是對於全民防衛這個概念我想大家應該都有啦我想委員應該很清楚吧我們大概都很清楚勿視敵之不來恃無有以待之我知道有沒有跟你談過跟部長或者跟經濟部談過有沒有我們當然有討論過啦每一個部門所承擔的工作跟任務是不一樣你們這裡面可以掉\n\n5\n00:01:29,031 --> 00:01:50,138\n可以吊比如說計程車可以吊你們經濟部底下的任何的人這個感覺這感覺在我們整個憲政的運作上除非總統宣布緊急命令否則他沒有辦法他不能夠隨便吊這個裡面工作的人吊車輛吊什麼的他要吊你們的訓練我就問一個問題他吊你們的人這段時間訓練時間給的錢\n\n6\n00:01:58,752 --> 00:02:11,269\n有沒有給錢這個主要是內政部的一個這個目標跟任務啦經濟部的配合對啦我知道啦但是你一直沒有回答問題嘛第一個\n\n7\n00:02:13,272 --> 00:02:30,134\n好像不知道到底你們底下誰我不是主導這一件事那你告訴我哪一位可以回答哪一位可以回答這個問題就是跟誰談我們目前為止都還沒有都沒有跟你們談\n\n8\n00:02:31,275 --> 00:02:35,240\n委員所垂詢的部分是非常細的這個細節我知道很重要但是你垂詢的非常細節我仍然還沒有進入到那個\n\n9\n00:02:48,436 --> 00:03:12,873\n還沒有進入到你所承諾的這個層級類似緊急命令底下可以徵用所有的人緊急命令底下沒有問題我想我們大家都知道那總統也沒有下緊急命令那我們只是說就這個命題來我們大概知道有這樣的一個命題但是我相信貝盛頓也一定會依法\n\n10\n00:03:14,073 --> 00:03:19,696\n來進行這些我現在確定你剛剛跟我講說有你現在又說沒有到底是有還是沒有我不能跟你講說我沒有這個有這一件事情跟這件事情的內容我問的不是很清楚我是問內政部有沒有找經濟部談問這樣子你一直整波你沒有回答我\n\n11\n00:03:36,303 --> 00:03:37,604\n因為這個是涉及到跨部會的一個議題\n\n12\n00:03:59,931 --> 00:04:15,775\n那內政部是主辦機關然後我們那個權鬥署會有召集相關的部會在討論這個事你沒有沒有被目前沒有被調目前沒有嘛目前沒有可是這個新聞就做了這麼大人家感覺好像台灣又要上台了有準備要打仗了這感覺很不好啦而且而且可以隨時調動經濟部底下的交通部底下的連計程車司機也要調里長也要調\n\n13\n00:04:27,438 --> 00:04:45,468\n是這樣子的我要強調這個概念你們來講他要調你們的人然後你們完全就不知道結果他現在已經消息了出來我知道啦我當然知道全民的防衛動員可是他已經要這樣做了結果你們都不知道照理講\n\n14\n00:04:47,376 --> 00:04:55,827\n內政部跟經濟部是一樣大照理講要尊重你們要知會一下經濟部長很明顯經濟部長沒有被知會嘛我是替部長你討公道啊說這個事情應該知會你一下嘛\n\n15\n00:05:03,517 --> 00:05:24,390\n謝謝委員我想這個我們對這件事情還停留在剛Kickoff的這個階段那這裡面要運作各方面這個都要透過好這個我不要花太多時間在這裡了第二個第二個問題比較大這個台積電要去投資美國到底是1000億美金還是2000億美金\n\n16\n00:05:27,079 --> 00:05:39,732\n就這個魏董事長回來的報告為準就是一千億美金可是川普總統一直講兩千億美金到底誰講得對那這個可能我們要再確認一下你也不敢確認\n\n17\n00:05:41,710 --> 00:05:46,392\n到現在為止我不是當事人嘛總統已經講美國總統美國爸爸都講兩千億美金了然後我們這裡點點的就默認喔一般的小老百姓就是默認兩千億美金那等於外董事長講一千億阿川普講兩千億\n\n18\n00:06:01,619 --> 00:06:25,871\n一千例沒搞到兩千例所以我要來確定一下我要來確定到底一千還是兩千例如說魏董事長講的才是事實啦我並沒有講說川普川普總統他怎麼樣子來表達這一件投資的這個案我不是很清楚但是以我們來講經濟部在把關這件事情的時候\n\n19\n00:06:26,992 --> 00:06:38,279\n就是台積電他要去美國投資多少錢1000億美金或者將來2000億美金都要經過我們的投審司請問現在投審司投審司有六個要件這個現在沒有時間講喔\n\n20\n00:06:45,063 --> 00:06:54,792\n請問這個件送件沒有?送託診室沒有?到現在沒有到現在都沒有啊啊已經跟人家簽也不是MOU就準備決定了啊你敢這樣經濟部等於\n\n21\n00:06:58,915 --> 00:07:26,342\n這是委員您的看法啦我想這麼大的一個投資一個公司的董事長都可能信口開河我非常相信我也非常的尊重董事長我也非常佩服一個董事長可以在三天裡面見兩個總統然後他在分享的時候兩位總統都給他鼓掌好那其他的公司也可以這樣子喔我也可以直接去投資不要經過投資的事喔\n\n22\n00:07:27,282 --> 00:07:53,323\n我只要強調這一點喔我們的法令規定如果要從台灣把錢匯出去一定要經過投資人士啊投資人士不允許他,他怎麼去匯這個錢去?他要拿現金嗎?不可能的事情嘛所以現在他還沒有送啊他還沒有送不代表他不會投,他還沒有講說他什麼時候開始要請問你現在知道台積電的外資佔多少?\n\n23\n00:07:54,724 --> 00:08:11,495\n外資的部分大概佔了七八十個百分之七十二這裡面的董事我們台灣人三個啦外國人因為看起來大部分美國人四個獨董\n\n24\n00:08:13,818 --> 00:08:30,665\n幾位也都是外國人但是讀懂有一位是零權所以三四三台灣的董事三個美國的董事四個或者往其他看我們一直讀一讀都是外國人那讀懂三個裡面有一個零權這個這樣的一個結構外界的質疑外界的擔心是有道理的\n\n25\n00:08:40,416 --> 00:08:44,079\n這個要變美積電隨時可以變美積電啊董事改選馬上就董事長就換人啦董事長換人就可以啦每一個產業都有它的特性不能夠用一般的論述啊來講這個特殊的這個產業台積電這個產業坦白講它的這個資本支出啊\n\n26\n00:09:04,756 --> 00:09:30,659\n是非常大的一個產業所以他們不會笨到說我今天去到一個不具競爭力的這個地區然後去創造我自己的新的事業這個是完全不符合我想這個委員你也是管理局的專家你應該非常了解這個基本的要素從外資的結構他董事長換人是可行的\n\n27\n00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:46,874\n我是跟你強調這一點你跟我講其他都沒回答我的問題啊因為台灣人三個美國人四個啊獨統也是外國人兩個二比一他們的人都比我們多投票就改掉啦\n\n28\n00:09:48,355 --> 00:10:13,233\n為職家要被換掉都很輕而易舉啊只要投票就過啦所有的報告委員我想所有的董事啊他有一個責任就是要為了他的企業能夠makemoney如果照你這樣講這樣換了人他做的不好這樣兩下就被拉下來啦星際客不就這樣子嗎Intel這麼大的一個公司運作的不好你就下台\n\n29\n00:10:14,894 --> 00:10:37,230\n這個產業是非常非常救人的而且很容易去經營的部長我沒有時間再聽你長兵大論了我只是問你一個問題這樣的董事結構股東結構外資70%它的從太積電變成美積電的可能性存不存在我就問你這樣子\n\n30\n00:10:38,260 --> 00:10:56,182\n如果就學術上面的討論如果是學術上的討論當然可能啊機率很小機率很小對啊不然的話請你提出來這個論述嘛我要跟你報告就專業的角度來看不可能\n\n31\n00:10:56,702 --> 00:11:03,247\n因為我的專業我可以跟您報告就是不可能我在這個領域裡面我在這個領域裡面50年因為50年的經驗我可以很肯定的跟委員報告他就是不可能學術上面的討論就基於來看\n\n32\n00:11:15,575 --> 00:11:40,029\n他是非常微薄不是說不可能不是啊微薄的機率你的經歷基本上是Trading比較多啦也不必把它講得多偉大你是Trading比較多啦貿易做得比較多啦我不是推理喔我推理也是符合這個你Trading做得比較多啦符合原則的啊我是用社會科學來推理的啊最後一點我很在意的\n\n33\n00:11:41,772 --> 00:11:46,769\n你們現在用情緒勒索說不給你一千億就要漲價這一點\n\n34\n00:11:48,672 --> 00:12:15,194\n老實講這一點對整個民主運作是非常不公平的今天明明有便宜的核電一度一塊四你不用要去用很貴的這邊人家教授人家中研院都講了你們可以用核電你不用核電然後你硬要漲我們的價老百姓是不接受的啦\n\n35\n00:12:16,089 --> 00:12:33,483\n一千億也不會給你如果你提出條件說給我一千億我會核電我個人我個人我會支持但是你不要核電要一千億我不接受謝謝謝謝委員的支持事實上在我們經濟委員會的討論過程裡面一千億剛剛市長江其改委員也講過了一千億他正確的正確的判斷是3除30億\n\n36\n00:12:44,071 --> 00:12:46,775\n要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!\n\n37\n00:12:58,066 --> 00:13:14,984\n然後你現在沒有你現在便利的店不用便利用櫃的那個童子賢都講了童子賢你聽我講童子賢都講了我們不是說不用而是說現在的法令在現在的法令的這個\n\n38\n00:13:16,205 --> 00:13:36,906\n這個之下我們必須要遵法我們也必須要守法今天如果我們不遵法不守法今天政府不遵法不守法那這個政府還有信賴嗎所以我跟委員報告今天那個法的框架在那個地方我們必須要依法行事這個你不能要求我們不依法行事這一點我們不能接受\n\n39\n00:13:38,455 --> 00:13:52,193\n沒有這個法咧沒有這個法沒有這個法核安法就規定在那邊非常清楚嘛如果今天我們理性的討論把核安法大家可以接受的話我們不排除\n\n40\n00:13:53,146 --> 00:14:08,840\n沒有說不能用核電啦這是一個信仰的問題這是執政黨他要的東西今天請你當部長我所了解的就是認為你開放你可以用核電結果你為了當部長你還是不要用你還是不要用法令沒有說不能用核電喔\n\n41\n00:14:17,014 --> 00:14:36,930\n法令上面有規定現有的核電機組必須在40年以後下載如果要研議必須在5年前提出來這個是明確的一個法令的規定我不能不遵守我最後講一句話就好了我再強調一遍\n\n42\n00:14:37,932 --> 00:14:56,418\n你一千億說可以啟用核電我支持不啟用核電我不支持第一個我結論你不用回答我時間到了一直被催第二個第二個很重要的一件事情那就是這個我們在野黨都已經替你們\n\n43\n00:14:57,645 --> 00:15:19,516\n都修改法令你說演藝要演藝都可以要護國都可以第三個美國老大已經在吹希望能夠用核電這個請部長認真思考否則漲價得不到明星謝謝委員所有大院的決定我們一定遵守謝謝委員好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8357\t10868\t謝謝主席有請經濟部的郭部長\n18956\t45635\t委員好部長你好這個我們看到這個防衛內政部這個防衛韌性擴編他的範圍要推廣到經濟部交通部村里長幹事等等他內政部喊的防災是要目標10萬人整個來講就是目標40萬的民力\n47237\t60794\t這個整體感覺好像台灣快打仗的樣子喔要全民訓練皆兵啊這個請問請問他事先有沒有跟你這邊有沒有跟你聊過這個事情有沒有內政部有沒有跟你談過這個事\n62155\t88311\t這個我們是對於全民防衛這個概念我想大家應該都有啦我想委員應該很清楚吧我們大概都很清楚 勿視敵之不來 恃無有以待之我知道 有沒有跟你談過 跟部長或者跟經濟部談過有沒有我們當然有討論過啦每一個部門所承擔的工作跟任務是不一樣你們這裡面可以掉\n89031\t110138\t可以吊比如說計程車可以吊你們經濟部底下的任何的人這個感覺這感覺在我們整個憲政的運作上除非總統宣布緊急命令否則他沒有辦法 他不能夠隨便吊這個裡面工作的人 吊車輛 吊什麼的他要吊你們的訓練 我就問一個問題他吊你們的人這段時間 訓練時間給的錢\n118752\t131269\t有沒有給錢這個主要是內政部的一個這個目標跟任務啦經濟部的配合對啦我知道啦但是你一直沒有回答問題嘛第一個\n133272\t150134\t好像不知道到底你們底下誰我不是主導這一件事那你告訴我哪一位可以回答哪一位可以回答這個問題就是跟誰談我們目前為止都還沒有都沒有跟你們談\n151275\t155240\t委員所垂詢的部分是非常細的這個細節我知道很重要但是你垂詢的非常細節我仍然還沒有進入到那個\n168436\t192873\t還沒有進入到你所承諾的這個層級類似緊急命令底下可以徵用所有的人緊急命令底下沒有問題我想我們大家都知道那總統也沒有下緊急命令那我們只是說就這個命題來我們大概知道有這樣的一個命題但是我相信貝盛頓也一定會依法\n194073\t199696\t來進行這些我現在確定你剛剛跟我講說有你現在又說沒有到底是有還是沒有我不能跟你講說我沒有這個有這一件事情跟這件事情的內容我問的不是很清楚我是問內政部有沒有找經濟部談問這樣子你一直整波你沒有回答我\n216303\t217604\t因為這個是涉及到跨部會的一個議題\n239931\t255775\t那內政部是主辦機關然後我們那個權鬥署會有召集相關的部會在討論這個事你沒有沒有被目前沒有被調目前沒有嘛目前沒有可是這個新聞就做了這麼大人家感覺好像台灣又要上台了有準備要打仗了這感覺很不好啦而且而且可以隨時調動經濟部底下的交通部底下的連計程車司機也要調里長也要調\n267438\t285468\t是這樣子的我要強調這個概念你們來講他要調你們的人然後你們完全就不知道結果他現在已經消息了出來我知道啦我當然知道全民的防衛動員可是他已經要這樣做了結果你們都不知道照理講\n287376\t295827\t內政部跟經濟部是一樣大照理講要尊重你們要知會一下經濟部長很明顯經濟部長沒有被知會嘛我是替部長你討公道啊說這個事情應該知會你一下嘛\n303517\t324390\t謝謝委員 我想這個我們對這件事情還停留在剛Kick off的這個階段那這裡面要運作各方面 這個都要透過好 這個我不要花太多時間在這裡了第二個 第二個問題比較大這個台積電要去投資美國到底是1000億美金還是2000億美金\n327079\t339732\t就這個魏董事長回來的報告為準就是一千億美金可是川普總統一直講兩千億美金到底誰講得對那這個可能我們要再確認一下你也不敢確認\n341710\t346392\t到現在為止我不是當事人嘛總統已經講美國總統美國爸爸都講兩千億美金了然後我們這裡點點的就默認喔一般的小老百姓就是默認兩千億美金那等於外董事長講一千億阿川普講兩千億\n361619\t385871\t一千例沒搞到兩千例所以我要來確定一下我要來確定到底一千還是兩千例如說魏董事長講的才是事實啦我並沒有講說川普川普總統他怎麼樣子來表達這一件投資的這個案我不是很清楚但是以我們來講經濟部在把關這件事情的時候\n386992\t398279\t就是台積電他要去美國投資多少錢1000億美金或者將來2000億美金都要經過我們的投審司請問現在投審司投審司有六個要件這個現在沒有時間講喔\n405063\t414792\t請問這個件 送件沒有?送託診室沒有?到現在沒有到現在都沒有啊啊已經跟人家簽 也不是MOU就準備決定了啊你敢這樣 經濟部等於\n418915\t446342\t這是委員您的看法啦我想這麼大的一個投資一個公司的董事長都可能信口開河我非常相信我也非常的尊重董事長我也非常佩服一個董事長可以在三天裡面見兩個總統然後他在分享的時候兩位總統都給他鼓掌好那其他的公司也可以這樣子喔我也可以直接去投資不要經過投資的事喔\n447282\t473323\t我只要強調這一點喔我們的法令規定如果要從台灣把錢匯出去一定要經過投資人士啊投資人士不允許他,他怎麼去匯這個錢去?他要拿現金嗎?不可能的事情嘛所以現在他還沒有送啊他還沒有送不代表他不會投,他還沒有講說他什麼時候開始要請問你現在知道台積電的外資佔多少?\n474724\t491495\t外資的部分大概佔了七八十個百分之七十二這裡面的董事我們台灣人三個啦外國人因為看起來大部分美國人四個獨董\n493818\t510665\t幾位也都是外國人但是讀懂有一位是零權所以三四三台灣的董事三個美國的董事四個或者往其他看我們一直讀一讀都是外國人那讀懂三個裡面有一個零權這個這樣的一個結構外界的質疑外界的擔心是有道理的\n520416\t524079\t這個要變美積電隨時可以變美積電啊董事改選馬上就 董事長就換人啦董事長換人就可以啦每一個產業都有它的特性不能夠用一般的論述啊來講這個特殊的這個產業台積電這個產業 坦白講它的這個資本支出啊\n544756\t570659\t是非常大的一個產業所以他們不會笨到說我今天去到一個不具競爭力的這個地區然後去創造我自己的新的事業這個是完全不符合我想這個委員你也是管理局的專家你應該非常了解這個基本的要素從外資的結構他董事長換人是可行的\n571960\t586874\t我是跟你強調這一點你跟我講其他都沒回答我的問題啊因為台灣人三個美國人四個啊獨統也是外國人兩個二比一他們的人都比我們多投票就改掉啦\n588355\t613233\t為職家要被換掉都很輕而易舉啊只要投票就過啦所有的報告委員我想所有的董事啊他有一個責任就是要為了他的企業能夠make money如果照你這樣講這樣換了人他做的不好這樣兩下就被拉下來啦星際客不就這樣子嗎Intel這麼大的一個公司運作的不好你就下台\n614894\t637230\t這個產業是非常非常救人的而且很容易去經營的部長我沒有時間再聽你長兵大論了我只是問你一個問題這樣的董事結構股東結構外資70%它的從太積電變成美積電的可能性存不存在我就問你這樣子\n638260\t656182\t如果就學術上面的討論如果是學術上的討論當然可能啊機率很小機率很小對啊不然的話請你提出來這個論述嘛我要跟你報告就專業的角度來看不可能\n656702\t663247\t因為我的專業我可以跟您報告就是不可能我在這個領域裡面我在這個領域裡面50年因為50年的經驗我可以很肯定的跟委員報告他就是不可能學術上面的討論就基於來看\n675575\t700029\t他是非常微薄不是說不可能不是啊 微薄的機率你的經歷基本上是Trading比較多啦也不必把它講得多偉大你是Trading比較多啦貿易做得比較多啦我不是推理喔我推理也是符合這個你Trading做得比較多啦符合原則的啊我是用社會科學來推理的啊最後一點 我很在意的\n701772\t706769\t你們現在用情緒勒索說不給你一千億就要漲價這一點\n708672\t735194\t老實講這一點對整個民主運作是非常不公平的今天明明有便宜的核電一度一塊四你不用要去用很貴的這邊人家教授人家中研院都講了你們可以用核電你不用核電然後你硬要漲我們的價老百姓是不接受的啦\n736089\t753483\t一千億也不會給你如果你提出條件說給我一千億我會核電我個人我個人我會支持但是你不要核電要一千億我不接受謝謝謝謝委員的支持事實上在我們經濟委員會的討論過程裡面一千億剛剛市長江其改委員也講過了一千億他正確的正確的判斷是3除30億\n764071\t766775\t要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!\n778066\t794984\t然後你現在沒有你現在便利的店不用 便利用櫃的那個童子賢都講了童子賢你聽我講童子賢都講了我們不是說不用 而是說現在的法令在現在的法令的這個\n796205\t816906\t這個之下我們必須要遵法我們也必須要守法今天如果我們不遵法不守法今天政府不遵法不守法那這個政府還有信賴嗎所以我跟委員報告今天那個法的框架在那個地方我們必須要依法行事這個你不能要求我們不依法行事這一點我們不能接受\n818455\t832193\t沒有這個法咧沒有這個法沒有這個法核安法就規定在那邊非常清楚嘛如果今天我們理性的討論把核安法大家可以接受的話我們不排除\n833146\t848840\t沒有說不能用核電啦這是一個信仰的問題這是執政黨他要的東西今天請你當部長我所了解的就是認為你開放你可以用核電結果你為了當部長你還是不要用你還是不要用法令沒有說不能用核電喔\n857014\t876930\t法令上面有規定現有的核電機組必須在40年以後下載如果要研議必須在5年前提出來這個是明確的一個法令的規定我不能不遵守我最後講一句話就好了我再強調一遍\n877932\t896418\t你一千億說可以啟用核電我支持不啟用核電我不支持第一個我結論你不用回答我時間到了一直被催第二個第二個很重要的一件事情那就是這個我們在野黨都已經替你們\n897645\t919516\t都修改法令你說演藝要演藝都可以要護國都可以第三個美國老大已經在吹希望能夠用核電這個請部長認真思考否則漲價得不到明星謝謝委員所有大院的決定我們一定遵守謝謝委員好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席有請經濟部的郭部長\n委員好部長你好這個我們看到這個防衛內政部這個防衛韌性擴編他的範圍要推廣到經濟部交通部村里長幹事等等他內政部喊的防災是要目標10萬人整個來講就是目標40萬的民力\n這個整體感覺好像台灣快打仗的樣子喔要全民訓練皆兵啊這個請問請問他事先有沒有跟你這邊有沒有跟你聊過這個事情有沒有內政部有沒有跟你談過這個事\n這個我們是對於全民防衛這個概念我想大家應該都有啦我想委員應該很清楚吧我們大概都很清楚 勿視敵之不來 恃無有以待之我知道 有沒有跟你談過 跟部長或者跟經濟部談過有沒有我們當然有討論過啦每一個部門所承擔的工作跟任務是不一樣你們這裡面可以掉\n可以吊比如說計程車可以吊你們經濟部底下的任何的人這個感覺這感覺在我們整個憲政的運作上除非總統宣布緊急命令否則他沒有辦法 他不能夠隨便吊這個裡面工作的人 吊車輛 吊什麼的他要吊你們的訓練 我就問一個問題他吊你們的人這段時間 訓練時間給的錢\n有沒有給錢這個主要是內政部的一個這個目標跟任務啦經濟部的配合對啦我知道啦但是你一直沒有回答問題嘛第一個\n好像不知道到底你們底下誰我不是主導這一件事那你告訴我哪一位可以回答哪一位可以回答這個問題就是跟誰談我們目前為止都還沒有都沒有跟你們談\n委員所垂詢的部分是非常細的這個細節我知道很重要但是你垂詢的非常細節我仍然還沒有進入到那個\n還沒有進入到你所承諾的這個層級類似緊急命令底下可以徵用所有的人緊急命令底下沒有問題我想我們大家都知道那總統也沒有下緊急命令那我們只是說就這個命題來我們大概知道有這樣的一個命題但是我相信貝盛頓也一定會依法\n來進行這些我現在確定你剛剛跟我講說有你現在又說沒有到底是有還是沒有我不能跟你講說我沒有這個有這一件事情跟這件事情的內容我問的不是很清楚我是問內政部有沒有找經濟部談問這樣子你一直整波你沒有回答我\n因為這個是涉及到跨部會的一個議題\n那內政部是主辦機關然後我們那個權鬥署會有召集相關的部會在討論這個事你沒有沒有被目前沒有被調目前沒有嘛目前沒有可是這個新聞就做了這麼大人家感覺好像台灣又要上台了有準備要打仗了這感覺很不好啦而且而且可以隨時調動經濟部底下的交通部底下的連計程車司機也要調里長也要調\n是這樣子的我要強調這個概念你們來講他要調你們的人然後你們完全就不知道結果他現在已經消息了出來我知道啦我當然知道全民的防衛動員可是他已經要這樣做了結果你們都不知道照理講\n內政部跟經濟部是一樣大照理講要尊重你們要知會一下經濟部長很明顯經濟部長沒有被知會嘛我是替部長你討公道啊說這個事情應該知會你一下嘛\n謝謝委員 我想這個我們對這件事情還停留在剛Kick off的這個階段那這裡面要運作各方面 這個都要透過好 這個我不要花太多時間在這裡了第二個 第二個問題比較大這個台積電要去投資美國到底是1000億美金還是2000億美金\n就這個魏董事長回來的報告為準就是一千億美金可是川普總統一直講兩千億美金到底誰講得對那這個可能我們要再確認一下你也不敢確認\n到現在為止我不是當事人嘛總統已經講美國總統美國爸爸都講兩千億美金了然後我們這裡點點的就默認喔一般的小老百姓就是默認兩千億美金那等於外董事長講一千億阿川普講兩千億\n一千例沒搞到兩千例所以我要來確定一下我要來確定到底一千還是兩千例如說魏董事長講的才是事實啦我並沒有講說川普川普總統他怎麼樣子來表達這一件投資的這個案我不是很清楚但是以我們來講經濟部在把關這件事情的時候\n就是台積電他要去美國投資多少錢1000億美金或者將來2000億美金都要經過我們的投審司請問現在投審司投審司有六個要件這個現在沒有時間講喔\n請問這個件 送件沒有?送託診室沒有?到現在沒有到現在都沒有啊啊已經跟人家簽 也不是MOU就準備決定了啊你敢這樣 經濟部等於\n這是委員您的看法啦我想這麼大的一個投資一個公司的董事長都可能信口開河我非常相信我也非常的尊重董事長我也非常佩服一個董事長可以在三天裡面見兩個總統然後他在分享的時候兩位總統都給他鼓掌好那其他的公司也可以這樣子喔我也可以直接去投資不要經過投資的事喔\n我只要強調這一點喔我們的法令規定如果要從台灣把錢匯出去一定要經過投資人士啊投資人士不允許他,他怎麼去匯這個錢去?他要拿現金嗎?不可能的事情嘛所以現在他還沒有送啊他還沒有送不代表他不會投,他還沒有講說他什麼時候開始要請問你現在知道台積電的外資佔多少?\n外資的部分大概佔了七八十個百分之七十二這裡面的董事我們台灣人三個啦外國人因為看起來大部分美國人四個獨董\n幾位也都是外國人但是讀懂有一位是零權所以三四三台灣的董事三個美國的董事四個或者往其他看我們一直讀一讀都是外國人那讀懂三個裡面有一個零權這個這樣的一個結構外界的質疑外界的擔心是有道理的\n這個要變美積電隨時可以變美積電啊董事改選馬上就 董事長就換人啦董事長換人就可以啦每一個產業都有它的特性不能夠用一般的論述啊來講這個特殊的這個產業台積電這個產業 坦白講它的這個資本支出啊\n是非常大的一個產業所以他們不會笨到說我今天去到一個不具競爭力的這個地區然後去創造我自己的新的事業這個是完全不符合我想這個委員你也是管理局的專家你應該非常了解這個基本的要素從外資的結構他董事長換人是可行的\n我是跟你強調這一點你跟我講其他都沒回答我的問題啊因為台灣人三個美國人四個啊獨統也是外國人兩個二比一他們的人都比我們多投票就改掉啦\n為職家要被換掉都很輕而易舉啊只要投票就過啦所有的報告委員我想所有的董事啊他有一個責任就是要為了他的企業能夠make money如果照你這樣講這樣換了人他做的不好這樣兩下就被拉下來啦星際客不就這樣子嗎Intel這麼大的一個公司運作的不好你就下台\n這個產業是非常非常救人的而且很容易去經營的部長我沒有時間再聽你長兵大論了我只是問你一個問題這樣的董事結構股東結構外資70%它的從太積電變成美積電的可能性存不存在我就問你這樣子\n如果就學術上面的討論如果是學術上的討論當然可能啊機率很小機率很小對啊不然的話請你提出來這個論述嘛我要跟你報告就專業的角度來看不可能\n因為我的專業我可以跟您報告就是不可能我在這個領域裡面我在這個領域裡面50年因為50年的經驗我可以很肯定的跟委員報告他就是不可能學術上面的討論就基於來看\n他是非常微薄不是說不可能不是啊 微薄的機率你的經歷基本上是Trading比較多啦也不必把它講得多偉大你是Trading比較多啦貿易做得比較多啦我不是推理喔我推理也是符合這個你Trading做得比較多啦符合原則的啊我是用社會科學來推理的啊最後一點 我很在意的\n你們現在用情緒勒索說不給你一千億就要漲價這一點\n老實講這一點對整個民主運作是非常不公平的今天明明有便宜的核電一度一塊四你不用要去用很貴的這邊人家教授人家中研院都講了你們可以用核電你不用核電然後你硬要漲我們的價老百姓是不接受的啦\n一千億也不會給你如果你提出條件說給我一千億我會核電我個人我個人我會支持但是你不要核電要一千億我不接受謝謝謝謝委員的支持事實上在我們經濟委員會的討論過程裡面一千億剛剛市長江其改委員也講過了一千億他正確的正確的判斷是3除30億\n要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!\n然後你現在沒有你現在便利的店不用 便利用櫃的那個童子賢都講了童子賢你聽我講童子賢都講了我們不是說不用 而是說現在的法令在現在的法令的這個\n這個之下我們必須要遵法我們也必須要守法今天如果我們不遵法不守法今天政府不遵法不守法那這個政府還有信賴嗎所以我跟委員報告今天那個法的框架在那個地方我們必須要依法行事這個你不能要求我們不依法行事這一點我們不能接受\n沒有這個法咧沒有這個法沒有這個法核安法就規定在那邊非常清楚嘛如果今天我們理性的討論把核安法大家可以接受的話我們不排除\n沒有說不能用核電啦這是一個信仰的問題這是執政黨他要的東西今天請你當部長我所了解的就是認為你開放你可以用核電結果你為了當部長你還是不要用你還是不要用法令沒有說不能用核電喔\n法令上面有規定現有的核電機組必須在40年以後下載如果要研議必須在5年前提出來這個是明確的一個法令的規定我不能不遵守我最後講一句話就好了我再強調一遍\n你一千億說可以啟用核電我支持不啟用核電我不支持第一個我結論你不用回答我時間到了一直被催第二個第二個很重要的一件事情那就是這個我們在野黨都已經替你們\n都修改法令你說演藝要演藝都可以要護國都可以第三個美國老大已經在吹希望能夠用核電這個請部長認真思考否則漲價得不到明星謝謝委員所有大院的決定我們一定遵守謝謝委員好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.357 --> 00:10.868\n謝謝主席有請經濟部的郭部長\n\n00:18.956 --> 00:45.635\n委員好部長你好這個我們看到這個防衛內政部這個防衛韌性擴編他的範圍要推廣到經濟部交通部村里長幹事等等他內政部喊的防災是要目標10萬人整個來講就是目標40萬的民力\n\n00:47.237 --> 01:00.794\n這個整體感覺好像台灣快打仗的樣子喔要全民訓練皆兵啊這個請問請問他事先有沒有跟你這邊有沒有跟你聊過這個事情有沒有內政部有沒有跟你談過這個事\n\n01:02.155 --> 01:28.311\n這個我們是對於全民防衛這個概念我想大家應該都有啦我想委員應該很清楚吧我們大概都很清楚勿視敵之不來恃無有以待之我知道有沒有跟你談過跟部長或者跟經濟部談過有沒有我們當然有討論過啦每一個部門所承擔的工作跟任務是不一樣你們這裡面可以掉\n\n01:29.031 --> 01:50.138\n可以吊比如說計程車可以吊你們經濟部底下的任何的人這個感覺這感覺在我們整個憲政的運作上除非總統宣布緊急命令否則他沒有辦法他不能夠隨便吊這個裡面工作的人吊車輛吊什麼的他要吊你們的訓練我就問一個問題他吊你們的人這段時間訓練時間給的錢\n\n01:58.752 --> 02:11.269\n有沒有給錢這個主要是內政部的一個這個目標跟任務啦經濟部的配合對啦我知道啦但是你一直沒有回答問題嘛第一個\n\n02:13.272 --> 02:30.134\n好像不知道到底你們底下誰我不是主導這一件事那你告訴我哪一位可以回答哪一位可以回答這個問題就是跟誰談我們目前為止都還沒有都沒有跟你們談\n\n02:31.275 --> 02:35.240\n委員所垂詢的部分是非常細的這個細節我知道很重要但是你垂詢的非常細節我仍然還沒有進入到那個\n\n02:48.436 --> 03:12.873\n還沒有進入到你所承諾的這個層級類似緊急命令底下可以徵用所有的人緊急命令底下沒有問題我想我們大家都知道那總統也沒有下緊急命令那我們只是說就這個命題來我們大概知道有這樣的一個命題但是我相信貝盛頓也一定會依法\n\n03:14.073 --> 03:19.696\n來進行這些我現在確定你剛剛跟我講說有你現在又說沒有到底是有還是沒有我不能跟你講說我沒有這個有這一件事情跟這件事情的內容我問的不是很清楚我是問內政部有沒有找經濟部談問這樣子你一直整波你沒有回答我\n\n03:36.303 --> 03:37.604\n因為這個是涉及到跨部會的一個議題\n\n03:59.931 --> 04:15.775\n那內政部是主辦機關然後我們那個權鬥署會有召集相關的部會在討論這個事你沒有沒有被目前沒有被調目前沒有嘛目前沒有可是這個新聞就做了這麼大人家感覺好像台灣又要上台了有準備要打仗了這感覺很不好啦而且而且可以隨時調動經濟部底下的交通部底下的連計程車司機也要調里長也要調\n\n04:27.438 --> 04:45.468\n是這樣子的我要強調這個概念你們來講他要調你們的人然後你們完全就不知道結果他現在已經消息了出來我知道啦我當然知道全民的防衛動員可是他已經要這樣做了結果你們都不知道照理講\n\n04:47.376 --> 04:55.827\n內政部跟經濟部是一樣大照理講要尊重你們要知會一下經濟部長很明顯經濟部長沒有被知會嘛我是替部長你討公道啊說這個事情應該知會你一下嘛\n\n05:03.517 --> 05:24.390\n謝謝委員我想這個我們對這件事情還停留在剛Kickoff的這個階段那這裡面要運作各方面這個都要透過好這個我不要花太多時間在這裡了第二個第二個問題比較大這個台積電要去投資美國到底是1000億美金還是2000億美金\n\n05:27.079 --> 05:39.732\n就這個魏董事長回來的報告為準就是一千億美金可是川普總統一直講兩千億美金到底誰講得對那這個可能我們要再確認一下你也不敢確認\n\n05:41.710 --> 05:46.392\n到現在為止我不是當事人嘛總統已經講美國總統美國爸爸都講兩千億美金了然後我們這裡點點的就默認喔一般的小老百姓就是默認兩千億美金那等於外董事長講一千億阿川普講兩千億\n\n06:01.619 --> 06:25.871\n一千例沒搞到兩千例所以我要來確定一下我要來確定到底一千還是兩千例如說魏董事長講的才是事實啦我並沒有講說川普川普總統他怎麼樣子來表達這一件投資的這個案我不是很清楚但是以我們來講經濟部在把關這件事情的時候\n\n06:26.992 --> 06:38.279\n就是台積電他要去美國投資多少錢1000億美金或者將來2000億美金都要經過我們的投審司請問現在投審司投審司有六個要件這個現在沒有時間講喔\n\n06:45.063 --> 06:54.792\n請問這個件送件沒有?送託診室沒有?到現在沒有到現在都沒有啊啊已經跟人家簽也不是MOU就準備決定了啊你敢這樣經濟部等於\n\n06:58.915 --> 07:26.342\n這是委員您的看法啦我想這麼大的一個投資一個公司的董事長都可能信口開河我非常相信我也非常的尊重董事長我也非常佩服一個董事長可以在三天裡面見兩個總統然後他在分享的時候兩位總統都給他鼓掌好那其他的公司也可以這樣子喔我也可以直接去投資不要經過投資的事喔\n\n07:27.282 --> 07:53.323\n我只要強調這一點喔我們的法令規定如果要從台灣把錢匯出去一定要經過投資人士啊投資人士不允許他,他怎麼去匯這個錢去?他要拿現金嗎?不可能的事情嘛所以現在他還沒有送啊他還沒有送不代表他不會投,他還沒有講說他什麼時候開始要請問你現在知道台積電的外資佔多少?\n\n07:54.724 --> 08:11.495\n外資的部分大概佔了七八十個百分之七十二這裡面的董事我們台灣人三個啦外國人因為看起來大部分美國人四個獨董\n\n08:13.818 --> 08:30.665\n幾位也都是外國人但是讀懂有一位是零權所以三四三台灣的董事三個美國的董事四個或者往其他看我們一直讀一讀都是外國人那讀懂三個裡面有一個零權這個這樣的一個結構外界的質疑外界的擔心是有道理的\n\n08:40.416 --> 08:44.079\n這個要變美積電隨時可以變美積電啊董事改選馬上就董事長就換人啦董事長換人就可以啦每一個產業都有它的特性不能夠用一般的論述啊來講這個特殊的這個產業台積電這個產業坦白講它的這個資本支出啊\n\n09:04.756 --> 09:30.659\n是非常大的一個產業所以他們不會笨到說我今天去到一個不具競爭力的這個地區然後去創造我自己的新的事業這個是完全不符合我想這個委員你也是管理局的專家你應該非常了解這個基本的要素從外資的結構他董事長換人是可行的\n\n09:31.960 --> 09:46.874\n我是跟你強調這一點你跟我講其他都沒回答我的問題啊因為台灣人三個美國人四個啊獨統也是外國人兩個二比一他們的人都比我們多投票就改掉啦\n\n09:48.355 --> 10:13.233\n為職家要被換掉都很輕而易舉啊只要投票就過啦所有的報告委員我想所有的董事啊他有一個責任就是要為了他的企業能夠makemoney如果照你這樣講這樣換了人他做的不好這樣兩下就被拉下來啦星際客不就這樣子嗎Intel這麼大的一個公司運作的不好你就下台\n\n10:14.894 --> 10:37.230\n這個產業是非常非常救人的而且很容易去經營的部長我沒有時間再聽你長兵大論了我只是問你一個問題這樣的董事結構股東結構外資70%它的從太積電變成美積電的可能性存不存在我就問你這樣子\n\n10:38.260 --> 10:56.182\n如果就學術上面的討論如果是學術上的討論當然可能啊機率很小機率很小對啊不然的話請你提出來這個論述嘛我要跟你報告就專業的角度來看不可能\n\n10:56.702 --> 11:03.247\n因為我的專業我可以跟您報告就是不可能我在這個領域裡面我在這個領域裡面50年因為50年的經驗我可以很肯定的跟委員報告他就是不可能學術上面的討論就基於來看\n\n11:15.575 --> 11:40.029\n他是非常微薄不是說不可能不是啊微薄的機率你的經歷基本上是Trading比較多啦也不必把它講得多偉大你是Trading比較多啦貿易做得比較多啦我不是推理喔我推理也是符合這個你Trading做得比較多啦符合原則的啊我是用社會科學來推理的啊最後一點我很在意的\n\n11:41.772 --> 11:46.769\n你們現在用情緒勒索說不給你一千億就要漲價這一點\n\n11:48.672 --> 12:15.194\n老實講這一點對整個民主運作是非常不公平的今天明明有便宜的核電一度一塊四你不用要去用很貴的這邊人家教授人家中研院都講了你們可以用核電你不用核電然後你硬要漲我們的價老百姓是不接受的啦\n\n12:16.089 --> 12:33.483\n一千億也不會給你如果你提出條件說給我一千億我會核電我個人我個人我會支持但是你不要核電要一千億我不接受謝謝謝謝委員的支持事實上在我們經濟委員會的討論過程裡面一千億剛剛市長江其改委員也講過了一千億他正確的正確的判斷是3除30億\n\n12:44.071 --> 12:46.775\n要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!\n\n12:58.066 --> 13:14.984\n然後你現在沒有你現在便利的店不用便利用櫃的那個童子賢都講了童子賢你聽我講童子賢都講了我們不是說不用而是說現在的法令在現在的法令的這個\n\n13:16.205 --> 13:36.906\n這個之下我們必須要遵法我們也必須要守法今天如果我們不遵法不守法今天政府不遵法不守法那這個政府還有信賴嗎所以我跟委員報告今天那個法的框架在那個地方我們必須要依法行事這個你不能要求我們不依法行事這一點我們不能接受\n\n13:38.455 --> 13:52.193\n沒有這個法咧沒有這個法沒有這個法核安法就規定在那邊非常清楚嘛如果今天我們理性的討論把核安法大家可以接受的話我們不排除\n\n13:53.146 --> 14:08.840\n沒有說不能用核電啦這是一個信仰的問題這是執政黨他要的東西今天請你當部長我所了解的就是認為你開放你可以用核電結果你為了當部長你還是不要用你還是不要用法令沒有說不能用核電喔\n\n14:17.014 --> 14:36.930\n法令上面有規定現有的核電機組必須在40年以後下載如果要研議必須在5年前提出來這個是明確的一個法令的規定我不能不遵守我最後講一句話就好了我再強調一遍\n\n14:37.932 --> 14:56.418\n你一千億說可以啟用核電我支持不啟用核電我不支持第一個我結論你不用回答我時間到了一直被催第二個第二個很重要的一件事情那就是這個我們在野黨都已經替你們\n\n14:57.645 --> 15:19.516\n都修改法令你說演藝要演藝都可以要護國都可以第三個美國老大已經在吹希望能夠用核電這個請部長認真思考否則漲價得不到明星謝謝委員所有大院的決定我們一定遵守謝謝委員好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.357,"end":10.868,"text":"謝謝主席有請經濟部的郭部長"},{"start":18.956,"end":45.635,"text":"委員好部長你好這個我們看到這個防衛內政部這個防衛韌性擴編他的範圍要推廣到經濟部交通部村里長幹事等等他內政部喊的防災是要目標10萬人整個來講就是目標40萬的民力"},{"start":47.237,"end":60.794,"text":"這個整體感覺好像台灣快打仗的樣子喔要全民訓練皆兵啊這個請問請問他事先有沒有跟你這邊有沒有跟你聊過這個事情有沒有內政部有沒有跟你談過這個事"},{"start":62.155,"end":88.311,"text":"這個我們是對於全民防衛這個概念我想大家應該都有啦我想委員應該很清楚吧我們大概都很清楚 勿視敵之不來 恃無有以待之我知道 有沒有跟你談過 跟部長或者跟經濟部談過有沒有我們當然有討論過啦每一個部門所承擔的工作跟任務是不一樣你們這裡面可以掉"},{"start":89.031,"end":110.138,"text":"可以吊比如說計程車可以吊你們經濟部底下的任何的人這個感覺這感覺在我們整個憲政的運作上除非總統宣布緊急命令否則他沒有辦法 他不能夠隨便吊這個裡面工作的人 吊車輛 吊什麼的他要吊你們的訓練 我就問一個問題他吊你們的人這段時間 訓練時間給的錢"},{"start":118.752,"end":131.269,"text":"有沒有給錢這個主要是內政部的一個這個目標跟任務啦經濟部的配合對啦我知道啦但是你一直沒有回答問題嘛第一個"},{"start":133.272,"end":150.134,"text":"好像不知道到底你們底下誰我不是主導這一件事那你告訴我哪一位可以回答哪一位可以回答這個問題就是跟誰談我們目前為止都還沒有都沒有跟你們談"},{"start":151.275,"end":155.24,"text":"委員所垂詢的部分是非常細的這個細節我知道很重要但是你垂詢的非常細節我仍然還沒有進入到那個"},{"start":168.436,"end":192.873,"text":"還沒有進入到你所承諾的這個層級類似緊急命令底下可以徵用所有的人緊急命令底下沒有問題我想我們大家都知道那總統也沒有下緊急命令那我們只是說就這個命題來我們大概知道有這樣的一個命題但是我相信貝盛頓也一定會依法"},{"start":194.073,"end":199.696,"text":"來進行這些我現在確定你剛剛跟我講說有你現在又說沒有到底是有還是沒有我不能跟你講說我沒有這個有這一件事情跟這件事情的內容我問的不是很清楚我是問內政部有沒有找經濟部談問這樣子你一直整波你沒有回答我"},{"start":216.303,"end":217.604,"text":"因為這個是涉及到跨部會的一個議題"},{"start":239.931,"end":255.775,"text":"那內政部是主辦機關然後我們那個權鬥署會有召集相關的部會在討論這個事你沒有沒有被目前沒有被調目前沒有嘛目前沒有可是這個新聞就做了這麼大人家感覺好像台灣又要上台了有準備要打仗了這感覺很不好啦而且而且可以隨時調動經濟部底下的交通部底下的連計程車司機也要調里長也要調"},{"start":267.438,"end":285.468,"text":"是這樣子的我要強調這個概念你們來講他要調你們的人然後你們完全就不知道結果他現在已經消息了出來我知道啦我當然知道全民的防衛動員可是他已經要這樣做了結果你們都不知道照理講"},{"start":287.376,"end":295.827,"text":"內政部跟經濟部是一樣大照理講要尊重你們要知會一下經濟部長很明顯經濟部長沒有被知會嘛我是替部長你討公道啊說這個事情應該知會你一下嘛"},{"start":303.517,"end":324.39,"text":"謝謝委員 我想這個我們對這件事情還停留在剛Kick off的這個階段那這裡面要運作各方面 這個都要透過好 這個我不要花太多時間在這裡了第二個 第二個問題比較大這個台積電要去投資美國到底是1000億美金還是2000億美金"},{"start":327.079,"end":339.732,"text":"就這個魏董事長回來的報告為準就是一千億美金可是川普總統一直講兩千億美金到底誰講得對那這個可能我們要再確認一下你也不敢確認"},{"start":341.71,"end":346.392,"text":"到現在為止我不是當事人嘛總統已經講美國總統美國爸爸都講兩千億美金了然後我們這裡點點的就默認喔一般的小老百姓就是默認兩千億美金那等於外董事長講一千億阿川普講兩千億"},{"start":361.619,"end":385.871,"text":"一千例沒搞到兩千例所以我要來確定一下我要來確定到底一千還是兩千例如說魏董事長講的才是事實啦我並沒有講說川普川普總統他怎麼樣子來表達這一件投資的這個案我不是很清楚但是以我們來講經濟部在把關這件事情的時候"},{"start":386.992,"end":398.279,"text":"就是台積電他要去美國投資多少錢1000億美金或者將來2000億美金都要經過我們的投審司請問現在投審司投審司有六個要件這個現在沒有時間講喔"},{"start":405.063,"end":414.792,"text":"請問這個件 送件沒有?送託診室沒有?到現在沒有到現在都沒有啊啊已經跟人家簽 也不是MOU就準備決定了啊你敢這樣 經濟部等於"},{"start":418.915,"end":446.342,"text":"這是委員您的看法啦我想這麼大的一個投資一個公司的董事長都可能信口開河我非常相信我也非常的尊重董事長我也非常佩服一個董事長可以在三天裡面見兩個總統然後他在分享的時候兩位總統都給他鼓掌好那其他的公司也可以這樣子喔我也可以直接去投資不要經過投資的事喔"},{"start":447.282,"end":473.323,"text":"我只要強調這一點喔我們的法令規定如果要從台灣把錢匯出去一定要經過投資人士啊投資人士不允許他,他怎麼去匯這個錢去?他要拿現金嗎?不可能的事情嘛所以現在他還沒有送啊他還沒有送不代表他不會投,他還沒有講說他什麼時候開始要請問你現在知道台積電的外資佔多少?"},{"start":474.724,"end":491.495,"text":"外資的部分大概佔了七八十個百分之七十二這裡面的董事我們台灣人三個啦外國人因為看起來大部分美國人四個獨董"},{"start":493.818,"end":510.665,"text":"幾位也都是外國人但是讀懂有一位是零權所以三四三台灣的董事三個美國的董事四個或者往其他看我們一直讀一讀都是外國人那讀懂三個裡面有一個零權這個這樣的一個結構外界的質疑外界的擔心是有道理的"},{"start":520.416,"end":524.079,"text":"這個要變美積電隨時可以變美積電啊董事改選馬上就 董事長就換人啦董事長換人就可以啦每一個產業都有它的特性不能夠用一般的論述啊來講這個特殊的這個產業台積電這個產業 坦白講它的這個資本支出啊"},{"start":544.756,"end":570.659,"text":"是非常大的一個產業所以他們不會笨到說我今天去到一個不具競爭力的這個地區然後去創造我自己的新的事業這個是完全不符合我想這個委員你也是管理局的專家你應該非常了解這個基本的要素從外資的結構他董事長換人是可行的"},{"start":571.96,"end":586.874,"text":"我是跟你強調這一點你跟我講其他都沒回答我的問題啊因為台灣人三個美國人四個啊獨統也是外國人兩個二比一他們的人都比我們多投票就改掉啦"},{"start":588.355,"end":613.233,"text":"為職家要被換掉都很輕而易舉啊只要投票就過啦所有的報告委員我想所有的董事啊他有一個責任就是要為了他的企業能夠make money如果照你這樣講這樣換了人他做的不好這樣兩下就被拉下來啦星際客不就這樣子嗎Intel這麼大的一個公司運作的不好你就下台"},{"start":614.894,"end":637.23,"text":"這個產業是非常非常救人的而且很容易去經營的部長我沒有時間再聽你長兵大論了我只是問你一個問題這樣的董事結構股東結構外資70%它的從太積電變成美積電的可能性存不存在我就問你這樣子"},{"start":638.26,"end":656.182,"text":"如果就學術上面的討論如果是學術上的討論當然可能啊機率很小機率很小對啊不然的話請你提出來這個論述嘛我要跟你報告就專業的角度來看不可能"},{"start":656.702,"end":663.247,"text":"因為我的專業我可以跟您報告就是不可能我在這個領域裡面我在這個領域裡面50年因為50年的經驗我可以很肯定的跟委員報告他就是不可能學術上面的討論就基於來看"},{"start":675.575,"end":700.029,"text":"他是非常微薄不是說不可能不是啊 微薄的機率你的經歷基本上是Trading比較多啦也不必把它講得多偉大你是Trading比較多啦貿易做得比較多啦我不是推理喔我推理也是符合這個你Trading做得比較多啦符合原則的啊我是用社會科學來推理的啊最後一點 我很在意的"},{"start":701.772,"end":706.769,"text":"你們現在用情緒勒索說不給你一千億就要漲價這一點"},{"start":708.672,"end":735.194,"text":"老實講這一點對整個民主運作是非常不公平的今天明明有便宜的核電一度一塊四你不用要去用很貴的這邊人家教授人家中研院都講了你們可以用核電你不用核電然後你硬要漲我們的價老百姓是不接受的啦"},{"start":736.089,"end":753.483,"text":"一千億也不會給你如果你提出條件說給我一千億我會核電我個人我個人我會支持但是你不要核電要一千億我不接受謝謝謝謝委員的支持事實上在我們經濟委員會的討論過程裡面一千億剛剛市長江其改委員也講過了一千億他正確的正確的判斷是3除30億"},{"start":764.071,"end":766.775,"text":"要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!"},{"start":778.066,"end":794.984,"text":"然後你現在沒有你現在便利的店不用 便利用櫃的那個童子賢都講了童子賢你聽我講童子賢都講了我們不是說不用 而是說現在的法令在現在的法令的這個"},{"start":796.205,"end":816.906,"text":"這個之下我們必須要遵法我們也必須要守法今天如果我們不遵法不守法今天政府不遵法不守法那這個政府還有信賴嗎所以我跟委員報告今天那個法的框架在那個地方我們必須要依法行事這個你不能要求我們不依法行事這一點我們不能接受"},{"start":818.455,"end":832.193,"text":"沒有這個法咧沒有這個法沒有這個法核安法就規定在那邊非常清楚嘛如果今天我們理性的討論把核安法大家可以接受的話我們不排除"},{"start":833.146,"end":848.84,"text":"沒有說不能用核電啦這是一個信仰的問題這是執政黨他要的東西今天請你當部長我所了解的就是認為你開放你可以用核電結果你為了當部長你還是不要用你還是不要用法令沒有說不能用核電喔"},{"start":857.014,"end":876.93,"text":"法令上面有規定現有的核電機組必須在40年以後下載如果要研議必須在5年前提出來這個是明確的一個法令的規定我不能不遵守我最後講一句話就好了我再強調一遍"},{"start":877.932,"end":896.418,"text":"你一千億說可以啟用核電我支持不啟用核電我不支持第一個我結論你不用回答我時間到了一直被催第二個第二個很重要的一件事情那就是這個我們在野黨都已經替你們"},{"start":897.645,"end":919.516,"text":"都修改法令你說演藝要演藝都可以要護國都可以第三個美國老大已經在吹希望能夠用核電這個請部長認真思考否則漲價得不到明星謝謝委員所有大院的決定我們一定遵守謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":716,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時42分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：部長你好。我們看到內政部的防衛韌性擴編，範圍要推廣至經濟部、交通部、村里長及幹事等等，內政部喊防災士目標10萬人，整個來講就是目標40萬民力。整體感覺上好像臺灣快打仗的樣子，全民訓練、全民皆兵，請問它事先有沒有跟你聊過這個事情？內政部有沒有找你談過這個事？"],["郭部長智輝：對於全民防衛這個概念，我想大家應該都有，委員應該很清楚……"],["賴委員士葆：不是，我就問你，有沒有跟你談過？"],["郭部長智輝：我們大概都很清楚，勿恃敵之不來，恃吾有以待之。"],["賴委員士葆：對，我知道。有沒有跟你談過？跟部長或者跟經濟部談過，有沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然有討論過……"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有討論過？"],["郭部長智輝：每一個部門所承擔的工作和任務是不一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：因為這裡面可以調，比如計程車；可以調你們經濟部底下的任何人，感覺上，在我們整個憲政運作上，除非總統宣布緊急命令，否則它不能夠隨便調在裡面工作的人，調車輛或調什麼的。它要調你們的人去訓練，我就問你一個問題，它調你們的人，這一段訓練時間給的錢……"],["郭部長智輝：這個主要是內政部……"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有給錢，你知不知道？"],["郭部長智輝：內政部的一個目標和任務，經濟部……"],["賴委員士葆：對，我知道，但是你一直沒有回答我的問題！第一個，你好像不知道，到底你們底下誰……"],["郭部長智輝：因為我不是主導這一件事。"],["賴委員士葆：那你告訴我哪一位可以回答？哪一位可以回答這個問題，就是跟誰談，有沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：我們目前為止都還沒有……"],["賴委員士葆：都沒有跟你們談……"],["郭部長智輝：都還沒有……"],["賴委員士葆：所以不是你剛才隨便講一下說會去談的……"],["郭部長智輝：委員所垂詢的部分是非常細的細節。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，這個很重要，因為……"],["郭部長智輝：我知道很重要，但你剛才垂詢的是非常細節的。"],["賴委員士葆：這是防衛韌性編組。"],["郭部長智輝：還沒有進入到您所垂詢的層級。"],["賴委員士葆：它等於是類似緊急命令底下可以徵用所有的人，緊急命令底下這樣做沒有問題。"],["郭部長智輝：我想我們大家都知道，總統也沒有下緊急命令，我們只是就這個命題上，我們大概知道有這樣的一個命題。"],["賴委員士葆：但是還沒有跟你談過嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：但我相信內政部也一定會依法進行這些……"],["賴委員士葆：我現在要確定，你剛剛跟我講有，你現在又說沒有，到底是有還是沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：我不能跟你講我沒有，有這一件事情跟這件事情的內容，這個差很多！我想這個……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，我問的不是很細。我只問內政部有沒有找經濟部談哪？就問這樣子你却一直給我繞半天，沒有回答我！就是內政部有沒有找你談？"],["郭部長智輝：問題這麼大，我不知道從哪裡回答你的問題。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，有沒有找經濟部談？事實上是沒有嘛？你後面的長官也說沒有嘛！有沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：那我請同仁回答好了。"],["賴委員士葆：好，有沒有找你們談？"],["劉副司長起孝：報告委員，因為這是涉及到跨部會的一個議題，內政部是主辦機關，全動署會召集相關部會討論這個事情。"],["賴委員士葆：你們有沒有被……"],["劉副司長起孝：目前沒有被調……"],["賴委員士葆：目前沒有嘛？"],["劉副司長起孝：對。"],["賴委員士葆：目前沒有，可是這個新聞就做得這麼大，讓人家感覺好像臺灣要打仗的樣子！也準備要打仗了，這感覺很不好啦！而且可以隨時調動經濟部、交通部底下的，連計程車司機也要調、里長也要調，是這樣子的，我要強調這個概念。以你們來講，它要調你們的人，然後你們完全也不知道，結果現在消息已經出來了。"],["劉副司長起孝：報告委員，這是全民防衛動員。"],["賴委員士葆：我當然知道全民的防衛動員，可是它已經要這樣做了，結果你們都不知道。照理講，內政部跟經濟部是一樣大，照理講要尊重你們，要知會一下經濟部長。很明顯經濟部長沒有被知會，我是替部長討公道！這個事情應該知會你一下。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，我們對這一件事情還停留在剛kick off的這個階段，這裡面要運作等各方面，都要透過很多的……來進行。"],["賴委員士葆：好，我不要花太多時間在這裡。第二個問題比較大，台積電要去投資美國到底是1,000億美金還是2,000億美金？"],["郭部長智輝：就魏董事長回來的報告為準，就是1,000億美金。"],["賴委員士葆：可是川普總統一直講2,000億美金，到底誰講的對？"],["郭部長智輝：這個可能我們要再確認一下。"],["賴委員士葆：你也不敢確認？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，這個不是我……"],["賴委員士葆：不是，我講到現在為止……"],["郭部長智輝：我不是當事人。"],["賴委員士葆：美國總統、美國爸爸都講2,000億美金了，然後我們這裡「惦惦」耶！就默認喔！這在一般的小老百姓……就是默認2,000億美金，那等於魏董事長講1,000億美金，川普講2,000億美金，1,000億不夠，還要2,000億！所以我要確定一下，我要確定到底是1,000億還是2,000億。"],["郭部長智輝：我跟委員報告，就是魏董事長講的才是事實，我並沒有講川普……川普總統他怎麼樣子表達這一件投資案，我不是很清楚，但是於我們來講，經濟部在把關這件事情的時候，就是台積電要去美國投資多少錢，1,000億……"],["賴委員士葆：1,000億美金，好……"],["郭部長智輝：或者將來2,000億美金，都要經過我們的投審司。"],["賴委員士葆：好，請問現在投審司……"],["郭部長智輝：我剛才跟委員報告過，投審司有六個要件，這個……"],["賴委員士葆：好，現在沒有時間講。請問這個送件了沒有、送投審司了沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：到現在沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：到現在都沒有啊！已經跟人家簽，也不是MOU，就準備決定了，你們卻是這樣……經濟部等於……"],["郭部長智輝：這是委員您的看法，我想這麼大的一個投資，一個公司的董事長……"],["賴委員士葆：都不要經過投審司？"],["郭部長智輝：不可能信口開河，我非常相信，我也非常尊重魏董事長。我也非常佩服一個董事長可以在3天裡面見兩個總統，然後他在分享的時候兩位總統都給他鼓掌。"],["賴委員士葆：好，那其他的公司也可以這樣子喔？它也可以直接去投資，不要經過投審司喔？我是要強調這一點，是不是這樣也可以？"],["郭部長智輝：我們的法令規定，如果要從臺灣把錢匯出去……"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！台積電怎麼把它的錢匯出去？"],["郭部長智輝：一定要經過投審司。"],["賴委員士葆：是啊！"],["郭部長智輝：投審司不允許它，它怎麼匯這個錢出去，它要拿現金去嗎？不可能的事情。"],["賴委員士葆：現在它還沒有送啊！"],["郭部長智輝：它還沒有送，不代表它不會投，它也沒有講它什麼時候就開始要去……"],["賴委員士葆：請問你知不知道現在台積電的外資占多少？"],["郭部長智輝：外資的部分大概占了七、八十個百分點。"],["賴委員士葆：72%！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員士葆：這裡面的董事臺灣人只有3個。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員士葆：外國人有4個，看起來大部分是美國人；幾位獨董也多是外國人，但是其中有一位是林全，所以是3、4、3，臺灣的董事3個、美國的董事4個或者……我把名字讀一讀，都是外國人啦，另外是獨董3個裡面有一個是林全。對於這樣的結構，外界的質疑和擔心是有道理的，台積電要變美積電的話，隨時可以變啊！董事改選，董事會馬上就換人了啊！董事長換人就可以了啊，太簡單了，因為外資占72%。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，每一個產業都有它的特性，不能夠用一般的論述來講這個特殊的產業，台積電這個產業坦白講它的資本支出是非常大的一個產業，所以他們不會笨到說，我今天去到一個不具競爭力的地區，然後去創造我自己的新的事業，這個……"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有回答我的問題！"],["郭部長智輝：這個是完全不符合……"],["賴委員士葆：部長，我跟你講……"],["郭部長智輝：委員也是管理學的專家，你應該非常瞭解這個基本的……"],["賴委員士葆：部長，我跟你講，從董事的結構、外資的結構，它董事長換人是可行的。我是跟你強調這一點，你跟我講其他的，都沒有回答我的問題啊！因為臺灣人3個、美國人4個，獨董也是外國人2個，2比1，他們的人都比我們多，投票就改掉了，要把魏哲家換掉都很輕而易舉，只要投票就過了啊！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，所有的董事都有一個責任，就是要能為他的企業make money，如果照你這樣講，將來換了人，他做得不好，照樣兩下就被拉下來了啊！基辛格（Gelsinger）不就是這樣嗎？Intel這麼大的一個公司，運作得不好也就下台了。這個產業是非常、非常競爭，而且不容易去經營的。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，我沒有時間聽你長篇大論。我只是問你一個問題，這樣的董事結構、股東結構，外資占72%，從台積電變成美積電的可能性存不存在？我就問你這樣。"],["郭部長智輝：如果就學術上面的討論……"],["賴委員士葆：學術上來講當然可能啊！"],["郭部長智輝：機率很小。"],["賴委員士葆：機率很小？"],["郭部長智輝：對啊！不然的話，請你提出來機率很高的論述嘛！我要跟你報告，就專業的角度來看，不可能！"],["賴委員士葆：專業不可能，學術當然可能啊，怎麼不可能！"],["郭部長智輝：因為我的專業，我可以跟你報告就是不可能。我在這個領域裡面50年，以我50年的經驗，我可以很肯定地跟委員報告，它就是不可能！但是就學術上面的討論，就機率來看，它是非常微薄，不是說不可能，有微薄的機率。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，你的經歷基本上是trading比較多啦！你不必把它講得多偉大，你是trading比較多，貿易做得比較多啦！"],["郭部長智輝：我不是推理喔！我的推理也是符合這個……"],["賴委員士葆：你trading做得比較多啦！"],["郭部長智輝：我的推理也是符合原則的啊！我是用社會科學研究來推理的啊！"],["賴委員士葆：我的時間到了，沒有辦法繼續跟你講。","最後一點，我很在意的是，你們現在用情緒勒索說不給台電1,000億就要漲電價，老實講，這一點對整個民主運作是非常不公平的。今天明明有便宜的核電，一度一塊四，你不用，要去用很貴的電。人家教授和中研院都講了，你們可以用核電，你不用核電，然後硬要漲我們的電價，老百姓是不接受的啦！1,000億也不會給你，如果你提一個條件說：給我1,000億、我用核電，這樣我個人會支持；但是你不用核電卻要1,000億，我不接受！我就這樣告訴你。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員的支持。"],["賴委員士葆：不用！是要核電、要用核電！"],["郭部長智輝：事實上在我們經濟部的討論過程裡面……"],["賴委員士葆：要用核電！"],["郭部長智輝：剛才張啓楷委員也講過了，他對1,000億正確的判斷是刪除30億，但是送到大院的1,000億完全被刪掉，我就覺得這個不是專業的討論啦！"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，你應該要窮盡一切辦法cost down，可是你沒有，你現在便宜的電不用，偏偏要用貴的！童子賢都講了……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，剛才講了，我們不是不用，而是在現在的法令之下，我們必須要遵法也必須要守法，今天如果……"],["賴委員士葆：跟你講啦，人家請你來……"],["郭部長智輝：如果今天政府不遵法、不守法，那這個政府還有信賴嗎？所以我要跟委員報告，今天法的框架在那個地方，我們必須要依法行事，你不能要求我們不依法行事，這一點我們不能接受。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有這個法耶，這是……"],["郭部長智輝：有這個法啊！"],["賴委員士葆：沒有這個法！"],["郭部長智輝：核安法就規定在那邊，非常清楚嘛！如果今天我們理性地討論，核安法大家可以接受的話，我們不排除。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有說不能用核電啦！這是一個信仰的問題，這是執政黨要的東西，今天請你當部長，我所瞭解的就是認為你開放，你肯用核電，結果你為了當官就是不要用，你還是不要用！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我現在擔任這個部長，我必須尊重、遵守中華民國的法令。"],["賴委員士葆：法令沒有說不能用核電喔！"],["郭部長智輝：法律上面有規定，現有的核電機組必須在40年以後下載，如果要延役，必須在5年前提出來，這個是明確的法令規定，我不能不遵守啊！"],["賴委員士葆：我最後講一句話就好了，我再強調一遍，你1,000億說可以啟用核電，我支持；不啟用核電，我不支持，這是我的第一個結論，你不用回答我，我時間到了。第二個，很重要的一件事情，那就是我們在野黨都已經要替你們修改法律，你要延役都可以、要復活都可以。第三個，美國老大已經在催，希望能夠用核電，這個請部長認真思考，否則漲價得不到民心。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，所有大院的決定我們一定遵守。謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。現在請洪孟楷委員做詢答。","我們先宣告：中午不休息，延長開會時間到議程處理完畢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","賴士葆","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","郭國文","陳昭姿","林月琴","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","徐富癸","羅智強","陳超明","林德福","牛煦庭","蔡易餘"],"page_start":193,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00004"}}}