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\"start\": 48.245, \"end\": 48.645, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 48.645, \"end\": 48.785, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 48.785, \"end\": 49.465, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 49.465, \"end\": 49.585, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 49.585, \"end\": 50.246, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 50.246, \"end\": 50.726, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"退\", \"start\": 50.726, \"end\": 51.026, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"休\", \"start\": 51.026, \"end\": 51.346, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"金\", \"start\": 51.346, \"end\": 52.827, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 52.827, \"end\": 53.247, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"刪\"}, {\"word\": \"除\", \"start\": 53.247, \"end\": 53.407, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 53.407, \"end\": 53.947, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": 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\"休\", \"start\": 58.509, \"end\": 58.709, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"金\", \"start\": 58.709, \"end\": 58.889, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"又\", \"start\": 58.889, \"end\": 59.069, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 59.069, \"end\": 60.17, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"刪\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 60.17, \"end\": 60.69, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"導\"}, {\"word\": \"致\", \"start\": 60.69, \"end\": 61.11, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 61.11, \"end\": 61.31, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"率\", \"start\": 61.31, \"end\": 61.41, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 61.41, \"end\": 61.531, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 61.531, \"end\": 61.691, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"逐\", \"start\": 61.691, \"end\": 61.891, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 61.891, \"end\": 62.051, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 62.051, \"end\": 62.211, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 62.211, \"end\": 62.551, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"降\", \"start\": 62.551, \"end\": 62.811, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 62.811, \"end\": 63.011, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 63.011, \"end\": 63.131, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 63.131, \"end\": 63.291, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 63.291, \"end\": 63.591, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 63.591, \"end\": 63.872, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 63.872, \"end\": 64.032, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 64.032, \"end\": 64.332, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 64.332, \"end\": 64.352, \"score\": 0.999}]}, {\"start\": 65.012, \"end\": 93.284, \"text\": \"所以除了這個經濟部分的問題之外我想其他部分我們是不是有提供給公務員一個有保障的法規這也是一個很重要而且能夠吸引優秀的人才能當公務員的一個重要的事情我們想到前一段時間我們一直在討論說公務員不管是過勞的問題或是霸凌的問題目前我們來看公務員還是沒有辦法納入職安法的保護對不對\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 65.012, \"end\": 65.192, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": 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\"說\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 85.52, \"end\": 85.921, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 85.921, \"end\": 86.041, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 86.041, \"end\": 86.221, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 86.221, \"end\": 86.861, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 86.861, \"end\": 87.621, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 87.621, \"end\": 87.721, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 87.721, \"end\": 87.941, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"霸\", \"start\": 87.941, \"end\": 88.142, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"凌\", \"start\": 88.142, \"end\": 88.342, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 88.342, \"end\": 89.342, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 89.342, \"end\": 89.502, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 89.502, \"end\": 89.622, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 89.622, \"end\": 89.962, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 89.962, \"end\": 90.322, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 90.322, \"end\": 90.823, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 90.823, \"end\": 90.983, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 90.983, \"end\": 91.103, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 91.103, \"end\": 91.523, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 91.523, \"end\": 92.103, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"納\"}, {\"word\": \"入\", \"start\": 92.103, \"end\": 92.443, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 92.443, \"end\": 92.723, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 92.723, \"end\": 92.883, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 92.883, \"end\": 93.044, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 93.044, \"end\": 93.264, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"護\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 93.264, \"end\": 93.284, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"對\"}]}, {\"start\": 94.96, \"end\": 117.753, \"text\": \"我們現在就公務人員保障法跟安慰幫法那是2月的時候保訓會那時候有開一個那個防治公務人員職場霸凌法治研修的會議那政府目前的方向我想說還是希望說把這個公部門的霸凌是放在公務員保障法的架構下面去處理就是跟就是職安的部分要脫鉤\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 94.96, \"end\": 95.381, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 95.381, \"end\": 95.541, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 95.541, \"end\": 96.181, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 96.181, \"end\": 96.401, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 96.401, \"end\": 96.681, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 96.681, \"end\": 96.821, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"障\", \"start\": 96.821, \"end\": 97.001, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 97.001, \"end\": 97.162, 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辦公室煮菜或是叫部署開車載他去做自己的事情或是把家裡的垃圾拿去辦公室叫部署處理我覺得類似像這種案例出來之後其實我們就可以告訴其他的公務員有這些例子這些一個一個案例的累積我覺得對於將來我們對於霸凌這個定義是能夠更精確因為法律總是要法律其實是要求要明確化我想那個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 381.917, \"end\": 382.277, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"備\"}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 382.277, \"end\": 382.517, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"餐\", \"start\": 382.517, \"end\": 383.098, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 383.098, \"end\": 383.298, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"室\", \"start\": 383.298, \"end\": 383.498, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"煮\", \"start\": 383.498, \"end\": 383.738, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"菜\", \"start\": 383.738, \"end\": 384.478, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 384.478, \"end\": 384.578, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 384.578, \"end\": 385.439, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"叫\", \"start\": 385.439, \"end\": 385.639, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 385.639, \"end\": 385.779, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"共\", \"start\": 441.706, \"end\": 442.046, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"衛\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 442.046, \"end\": 442.246, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 442.246, \"end\": 442.386, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 442.386, \"end\": 442.506, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 442.506, \"end\": 442.686, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 442.686, \"end\": 442.887, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 442.887, \"end\": 443.007, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 443.007, \"end\": 443.567, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 443.567, \"end\": 445.348, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 445.348, \"end\": 445.668, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"健\", \"start\": 445.668, \"end\": 445.868, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"康\", \"start\": 445.868, \"end\": 446.648, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 446.648, \"end\": 446.849, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 446.849, \"end\": 447.149, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 447.149, \"end\": 447.269, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 447.269, \"end\": 447.389, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 447.389, \"end\": 447.729, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"致\", \"start\": 447.729, \"end\": 447.889, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"病\", \"start\": 447.889, \"end\": 447.969, \"score\": 0.758}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 447.969, \"end\": 448.149, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 448.149, \"end\": 448.269, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 448.269, \"end\": 448.429, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 448.429, \"end\": 448.569, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 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\"的相關的那個評議會都有請外部委員但是有一些地方的機關地方縣市政府並沒有那我想請教一下就是人長就這個部分你們有沒有思考去定一個標準要求國內的各公家機關的相關評議會都能夠強制的一定要有一定比例的外部委員在裡面\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 497.219, \"end\": 497.519, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 497.519, \"end\": 497.979, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 497.979, \"end\": 498.78, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 498.78, \"end\": 500.12, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"評\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 500.12, \"end\": 500.28, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 500.28, \"end\": 500.641, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 500.641, \"end\": 500.841, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 500.841, \"end\": 500.961, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 500.961, \"end\": 501.281, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 501.281, \"end\": 501.421, \"score\": 0.715}, 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\"求\", \"start\": 512.666, \"end\": 513.446, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 513.446, \"end\": 513.706, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 513.706, \"end\": 513.947, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 513.947, \"end\": 514.167, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 514.167, \"end\": 515.227, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 515.227, \"end\": 515.347, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 515.347, \"end\": 516.468, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"評\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 516.468, \"end\": 516.728, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 516.728, \"end\": 517.588, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"強\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 517.588, \"end\": 517.768, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 517.768, \"end\": 517.928, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 517.928, \"end\": 518.128, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 518.128, \"end\": 518.309, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 518.309, \"end\": 518.469, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 518.469, \"end\": 518.709, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 518.709, \"end\": 518.949, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 518.949, \"end\": 519.269, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 519.269, \"end\": 519.489, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 519.489, \"end\": 519.689, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 519.689, \"end\": 519.869, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 519.869, \"end\": 520.129, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 520.129, \"end\": 520.289, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 520.289, \"end\": 520.63, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 520.63, \"end\": 521.01, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 521.01, \"end\": 521.03, \"score\": 0.995}]}, {\"start\": 521.69, \"end\": 535.307, \"text\": \"否則啊 我們接到的那個申訴案件我們某一個縣市有一個申訴案件他去做霸凌的申訴 就發現調查小組 申訴小組裡面的成員都是自己機關內的長官\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"否\", \"start\": 521.69, \"end\": 522.151, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"則\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 522.151, \"end\": 522.571, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 522.571, \"end\": 522.852, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 522.852, \"end\": 523.092, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 523.092, \"end\": 523.232, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 523.232, \"end\": 523.372, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 523.372, \"end\": 523.632, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"申\", \"start\": 523.632, \"end\": 524.053, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"訴\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 524.053, \"end\": 524.353, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 524.353, \"end\": 525.335, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 525.335, \"end\": 526.176, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"某\", \"start\": 526.176, \"end\": 526.336, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 526.336, \"end\": 526.756, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"縣\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 526.756, \"end\": 526.877, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 526.877, \"end\": 526.917, \"score\": 0.528}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 526.917, \"end\": 527.097, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"申\", \"start\": 527.097, \"end\": 527.477, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"訴\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 527.477, \"end\": 527.738, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 527.738, \"end\": 528.278, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 528.278, \"end\": 528.459, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 528.459, \"end\": 528.639, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 528.639, \"end\": 528.919, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"霸\", \"start\": 528.919, \"end\": 529.099, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"凌\", \"start\": 529.099, \"end\": 529.3, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 529.3, \"end\": 529.48, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"申\", \"start\": 529.48, \"end\": 530.081, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"訴\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 530.081, \"end\": 531.502, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 531.502, \"end\": 531.823, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"小\", \"start\": 531.823, \"end\": 532.343, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"組\"}, {\"word\": \"申\", \"start\": 532.343, \"end\": 532.584, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"訴\"}, {\"word\": \"小\", \"start\": 532.584, \"end\": 532.964, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"組\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 532.964, \"end\": 533.124, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 533.124, \"end\": 533.365, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 533.365, \"end\": 534.386, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 534.386, \"end\": 534.626, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 534.626, \"end\": 534.826, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 534.826, \"end\": 534.947, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 534.947, \"end\": 535.127, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 535.127, \"end\": 535.287, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 535.287, \"end\": 535.307, \"score\": 0.002}]}, {\"start\": 537.029, \"end\": 554.25, \"text\": \"那你也知道啦就是說在同一個機關內上班有時候他會不知道怎麼講啦甚至他講了以後這個霸凌者搞不好就是這個申訴委員會裡面的長官或者是長官的好朋友那這個要他怎麼處理我想請教一下你們的想法\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 537.029, \"end\": 537.149, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 537.149, \"end\": 537.229, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 537.229, \"end\": 537.37, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 551.246, \"end\": 551.747, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 551.747, \"end\": 552.227, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 552.227, \"end\": 552.407, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 552.407, \"end\": 552.808, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 552.808, \"end\": 552.988, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 552.988, \"end\": 553.048, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 553.048, \"end\": 553.208, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 553.208, \"end\": 553.829, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 553.829, \"end\": 553.949, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 553.949, \"end\": 554.23, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 554.23, \"end\": 554.25, \"score\": 0.029}]}, {\"start\": 554.97, \"end\": 574.239, \"text\": \"我跟委員報告因為目前在包含剛才委員關心的霸凌的定義還有一些相關細節還沒有制定我們現在是通案給各個機關就是看各個地方政府或者政府機關他們自己去做一個判斷可是當這個安慰辦法修正以後\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 554.97, \"end\": 555.11, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 555.11, \"end\": 555.29, \"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 555.29, \"end\": 555.67, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 555.67, \"end\": 556.111, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 556.111, \"end\": 556.411, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 556.411, \"end\": 556.671, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 556.671, \"end\": 557.071, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 557.071, \"end\": 557.611, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 557.611, \"end\": 557.791, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"含\", \"start\": 557.791, \"end\": 558.172, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 558.172, \"end\": 558.332, \"score\": 0.875}, 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\"不予參與整個調查的一個程序剛才委員所關心的這個議題我們會在安慰辦法裡面會把它落入相關那你們可以兩個月內給我一個簡單的報告就可以嗎兩個月內不用很複雜啦給我簡單的報告告訴我你們怎麼處理這件事情可以可以沒問題那另外還有一個東西就是因為人事總署有一個霸凌申訴平台在去年12月上線對不對那裡面有提到用保密的方式來處理\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 590.39, \"end\": 590.53, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"予\", \"start\": 590.53, \"end\": 591.491, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"與\"}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 591.491, \"end\": 591.931, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 591.931, \"end\": 592.131, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 592.131, \"end\": 592.272, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 592.272, \"end\": 592.512, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 592.512, \"end\": 592.712, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"序\", \"start\": 592.712, \"end\": 593.192, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 593.192, \"end\": 593.312, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 593.312, 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0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,555 --> 00:00:05,296\n謝謝麻煩任市長請任市長\n\n2\n00:00:09,758 --> 00:00:36,238\n委員長委員長早安今天要跟你請教一下就是有關職場霸凌的部分我想去年11月3號就是台灣我們這邊鬧得蠻大的就是那個無信公務員輕生之後那其實我們國內就開始都重視這個公務員職場霸凌的一些問題那我們再看一下這幾年其實在公務員體系發生一個狀況就我自己擔任公務員公務員有24年的時間\n\n3\n00:00:40,061 --> 00:01:04,352\n那這24年前那個時候的公務員其實是金飯碗大家都很喜歡當公務員但是我們看這幾年其實發生一個狀況就是因為退休金被刪除的關係所以導致這幾年公務員的薪水也不好退休金又被刪就導致報考率一直逐年的下降那比之前少非常多\n\n4\n00:01:05,012 --> 00:01:33,284\n所以除了這個經濟部分的問題之外我想其他部分我們是不是有提供給公務員一個有保障的法規這也是一個很重要而且能夠吸引優秀的人才能當公務員的一個重要的事情我們想到前一段時間我們一直在討論說公務員不管是過勞的問題或是霸凌的問題目前我們來看公務員還是沒有辦法納入職安法的保護對不對\n\n5\n00:01:34,960 --> 00:01:57,753\n我們現在就公務人員保障法跟安慰幫法那是2月的時候保訓會那時候有開一個那個防治公務人員職場霸凌法治研修的會議那政府目前的方向我想說還是希望說把這個公部門的霸凌是放在公務員保障法的架構下面去處理就是跟就是職安的部分要脫鉤\n\n6\n00:01:59,795 --> 00:02:21,375\n對我想說目前是這樣但是呢人事總署當然啦政府的這個想法我們是有點失望啦但是我想說人事行政總署你們總是整個政府的HR所有的機關的人事部門是由你們在掌管嘛那從這個人資的管理的專業角度\n\n7\n00:02:22,316 --> 00:02:40,798\n出發我們還是蠻希望說你們能夠發揮你們的角色能夠來適當的處理這個霸凌的問題那我想說從去年這個無姓公務員的這個事情之後其實不管是行政院速發部等等的公家機關都有被踢爆有很多霸凌的案子\n\n8\n00:02:41,559 --> 00:02:59,518\n那衛福部調查後也有八個案子那現在在調查之後呢其實陸陸續續都確認有霸凌的問題所以這個霸凌現在在我們的公務員體系裡面它並不是一個假議題它是一個真實存在的那我想請問人事長一個最簡單的問題霸凌的定義到底是什麼\n\n9\n00:03:01,021 --> 00:03:20,631\n霸凌它是一個持續性的對上對下或者下對上也有可能下對上或者同等的同仁之間長期的那一種所謂的有一種歧視的一些作為歧視包含肢體還有口語的\n\n10\n00:03:21,631 --> 00:03:36,273\n所以有時候我們同仁在跟我講就是說眼影按摩的概念有的人講話就是比較沒有修飾啦就比較講得比較土一點這這樣霸凌的定義會不會過於空泛\n\n11\n00:03:37,546 --> 00:03:53,440\n事實上它因為就是definition的問題所以我們最近已經很高密度的跟保訓會在談這一些安慰辦法這一些定義因為定義要定清楚我們在執行才有一個依據嘛好\n\n12\n00:03:54,742 --> 00:04:13,262\n我想說我大概懂那個任市長的意思啦就是說很多時候當然我們自己念法律的嘛有時候法律的解釋除了是法條之外再來就是要有實際的案例再來補充嘛我想說這個我可以理解啦所以是不是說除了法律的或者是一些\n\n13\n00:04:14,403 --> 00:04:29,935\n公開的政府論述之外將來是需要有更多的案例來補充所謂的霸凌的解釋是不是我們事實上目前用最多的大概是法院的這些判決的一些案例我們是把它拿來引用\n\n14\n00:04:32,077 --> 00:04:49,134\n這個會比較客觀而且明確啦那我想說這可能將來是不是也要麻煩你們能夠濃縮能夠摘出一些比較重要的案例然後來解釋給郭文廷因為有一些東西他的關於文字的解釋也許人民不是那麼容易懂\n\n15\n00:04:49,734 --> 00:05:05,972\n就好像說之前那個國會改革的時候我們講反諮詢然後人家問我說反諮詢呢那我們說明完定義之後我們會說接下來還是需要有案例將來來補充這個部分的說明啦我覺得類似喔我覺得法律人都這樣嘛法條\n\n16\n00:05:06,773 --> 00:05:27,374\n再加判決判例然後來補充讓它整個完整所以我還是希望說很多東西包括霸凌的定義是什麼除了法條之外我們還要把將來可能法院上面審理或者是一些實際上面行政機關所受理的案例要把它明確化來告訴各個公務員什麼叫做霸凌\n\n17\n00:05:28,055 --> 00:05:56,001\n那有些人他被霸凌他不自知那他看了也許他就懂他會去申訴或是有一些人他會知道自己的行為不對不可以這樣對別人所以還要麻煩你們在一起我們一起努力好我們這個大概原則上就如同我剛才講的我們會reference到整個法院的一些判例還有我們公務機關最近這一兩年實際的一些案例然後一個很重要的剛才委員提的我們會把它精簡\n\n18\n00:05:57,041 --> 00:06:20,796\n讓一般同仁一看就看得懂那我想說人總去年12月有提出一個霸凌女王那個嘛就他有幾個例子嘛公務員下屬說要請商駕他就說你怎麼不讓你爸爸趕快燒一燒就好或是說有人流產他就說你早上墮胎處理一下下午就可以來上班或是叫部署幫他\n\n19\n00:06:21,917 --> 00:06:49,329\n準備三餐辦公室煮菜或是叫部署開車載他去做自己的事情或是把家裡的垃圾拿去辦公室叫部署處理我覺得類似像這種案例出來之後其實我們就可以告訴其他的公務員有這些例子這些一個一個案例的累積我覺得對於將來我們對於霸凌這個定義是能夠更精確因為法律總是要法律其實是要求要明確化我想那個\n\n20\n00:06:50,129 --> 00:07:05,258\n人長一定非常知道這個道理我們就只能就是將來再多給我們一些這樣的案例讓我們能夠更了解霸凌的定義到底是什麼最後這個主管當然後來是被記兩大過免職我想說這是一個好事\n\n21\n00:07:07,579 --> 00:07:28,810\n其實我覺得要不是說之前有那位無姓公務員的不幸事件其實也不會讓大家這麼重視有這個公家機關有這個問題那我自己我自己我剛剛說我當了24年的公務員那我博士班念的是公共衛生那我們也都知道其實職場職場的這個健康狀況它本來就是社會致病因子的其中一種\n\n22\n00:07:29,830 --> 00:07:56,709\n所以職場的心理衛生的狀況它本來就影響到個人的身體健康以及家庭的問題所以這塊處理好其實對家庭以及對於我們說健保也是一個好事因為它讓這個社會致病因子減少的話讓人民其實可以更健康那我再請教一下就是目前各個機關它有一些有那個霸凌申訴的評議會\n\n23\n00:07:58,971 --> 00:08:16,339\n那我看了一下六都啊六都有五都的這個評議會都有外部委員的參與但是高雄沒有但是六都以外的縣市像彰化新竹金門也都沒有剩下只有內部委員那我想請問一下你們人事總署你們\n\n24\n00:08:17,219 --> 00:08:41,030\n的相關的那個評議會都有請外部委員但是有一些地方的機關地方縣市政府並沒有那我想請教一下就是人長就這個部分你們有沒有思考去定一個標準要求國內的各公家機關的相關評議會都能夠強制的一定要有一定比例的外部委員在裡面\n\n25\n00:08:41,690 --> 00:08:55,307\n否則啊我們接到的那個申訴案件我們某一個縣市有一個申訴案件他去做霸凌的申訴就發現調查小組申訴小組裡面的成員都是自己機關內的長官\n\n26\n00:08:57,029 --> 00:09:14,250\n那你也知道啦就是說在同一個機關內上班有時候他會不知道怎麼講啦甚至他講了以後這個霸凌者搞不好就是這個申訴委員會裡面的長官或者是長官的好朋友那這個要他怎麼處理我想請教一下你們的想法\n\n27\n00:09:14,970 --> 00:09:34,239\n我跟委員報告因為目前在包含剛才委員關心的霸凌的定義還有一些相關細節還沒有制定我們現在是通案給各個機關就是看各個地方政府或者政府機關他們自己去做一個判斷可是當這個安慰辦法修正以後\n\n28\n00:09:34,859 --> 00:09:49,870\n這些像我們目前大概會要求三分之一都是外部委員的這個部分到時候我們會直接寫進來大家有一個依詢而且相關的以疑似霸凌者的這些人\n\n29\n00:09:50,390 --> 00:10:17,091\n不予參與整個調查的一個程序剛才委員所關心的這個議題我們會在安慰辦法裡面會把它落入相關那你們可以兩個月內給我一個簡單的報告就可以嗎兩個月內不用很複雜啦給我簡單的報告告訴我你們怎麼處理這件事情可以可以沒問題那另外還有一個東西就是因為人事總署有一個霸凌申訴平台在去年12月上線對不對那裡面有提到用保密的方式來處理\n\n30\n00:10:18,872 --> 00:10:40,949\n但是呢因為這個平台要公務員具名檢舉但是你們說你們會保密那我想請教一下人種在收到這個檢舉之後是用什麼方式來進行處理或者是事後的追蹤那怎麼樣可以讓這個被檢舉的那個機關不會知道是誰來檢舉的你們的做法是怎麼樣\n\n31\n00:10:44,472 --> 00:11:10,393\n這個部分的話原則上我們各機關都會請他指定那個收件的一個窗口所以我們在平台收到案件之後呢我們就會傳遞給這個機關指定的窗口由這個窗口他們去做後續的處理那在相關的處理作業上面我們也有要求機關要依循保密的原則去做後續的釐清跟調查\n\n32\n00:11:10,993 --> 00:11:34,373\n那機關他在處理完成之後的結果他也要回到這個平台通報他處理的結果是成立不成立那對於成立的案子他是給他做懲處還是做調理調整職務還是做其他的處理在這個平台上面我們也會請他要回報到這個平台來\n\n33\n00:11:35,674 --> 00:12:00,951\n事後的列管呢事後列管我們就會在這個平台去看如果他超過期限還沒有完成的話那我們也會試著去了解是什麼原因因為事務處理上面來講的話有些機關因為剛剛人上也有提到都要有外部委員的參與所以這個有些機關可能案子比較複雜另外也是專家學者的時間\n\n34\n00:12:02,412 --> 00:12:18,923\n因為不好booking所以這個調查的程序上面來講的話有時候處理上會稍微晚一點也會有這種情形但是不管結果怎麼樣我們那個後平台的部分我們都一定要他回報處理結果以上\n\n35\n00:12:20,444 --> 00:12:40,661\n最後幾十秒我講一下因為有很多公務員跟我們說這個申訴平台他們就覺得是很黑箱他們也不是那麼信任那是不是可以麻煩你們事後再追蹤的時候幫我們多加一項就是去問一下這個檢舉人\n\n36\n00:12:42,847 --> 00:13:05,478\n有沒有就是有人洩密或公開了他的資訊這件事情好不好我覺得這最重要喔公務員敢不敢檢舉很多人都是怕自己的身份被公開那你們可以做事後的跟他詢問有沒有這個事情然後要做個整理你才能夠再精進自己的這套系統吧我如果今天說我被霸凌了\n\n37\n00:13:06,809 --> 00:13:26,091\n但是呢我又覺得說你們把這個事情公開出去會不會有這個狀況我覺得如果是這樣的話我反而當事人他會有疑慮因為他如果說他疑是怎樣怎樣應該是他服務的機關那個調查的機關他直接又跟他回應如果\n\n38\n00:13:27,418 --> 00:13:55,537\n他一定要問這個議題的話反而會讓他覺得會再度受傷反而有其他的疑慮事情已經發生我只是說你們有說你們會做事後的追蹤那事後追蹤當然有包括到你有沒有處理好這個案子但是我只是想要知道一個點就是會不會有公務員他們擔心因為他們申訴之後他的事情被曝光出去那你們不用做最後了解一下這個狀況嗎\n\n39\n00:13:57,859 --> 00:14:17,081\n去做將來政策的微調跟委員報告就是說今天在這個平台的申訴來講即使是就是說他具名如果我們又再去問當事人說你們機關有沒有疑似洩密或是什麼其實對當事人來講可能他也會擔心說你們怎麼知道我這個案子\n\n40\n00:14:17,852 --> 00:14:35,421\n你不是居民跟他們他們不是居民跟你檢舉嗎對但是如果說要逐一去了解每一個人他有沒有疑似被洩密這個對當事人來講的話他也會擔心說這個是不是他已經被洩密我們才去這樣子問他\n\n41\n00:14:37,162 --> 00:14:59,997\n所以這個部分剛剛人士想提到就是說不然這樣好了啦我想時間的關係啦我也不想再聽你們因為我覺得你講的這個邏輯我聽不懂我邏輯我真的聽不懂他今天具名跟你們檢舉你們事後問他們每一案通案每一案都問而不是個案問通案都問說你這個處理之後你有沒有發現這個申訴小組把你資料流出去\n\n42\n00:15:00,757 --> 00:15:28,486\n你就是問這樣子而已你說會造成他心裡什麼樣這邏輯我不懂啦我們來設計一下就是整個結案以後會讓當事人去填他對這個案子的滿意度或者因為這個是公務員最在乎的有沒有被申訴單位把他的資料流出去你認為說問他這個對他什麼傷害我聽不懂你們的邏輯啦真的好那我請你兩個月內一樣把這個申訴平台處理方式還有這個我剛剛提到的這個\n\n43\n00:15:29,426 --> 00:15:57,324\n最後能不能夠去問這個申訴者他們對於有沒有被保密這個東西的想法你們看你們要怎麼做再麻煩你們告訴我我跟你說我不是找你們麻煩我只是說聽聽看他們的想法去做政策的微調我很肯定你們的政策但是竟然有公務員跟我們講他們很怕申訴完之後被申訴機那個處理機關流出去那你就了解一下嘛如果每樣問一問之後大家都很滿意那不是更棒嗎我的邏輯只是這樣\n\n44\n00:15:57,904 --> 00:16:04,327\n好謝謝吳宗憲委員那確實啦這個霸凌的申訴這個部分追蹤的部分那個平台再跟吳委員來做一個說明那我們早上我看這個現在剩下上午的時間剩下20幾秒而已\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4555\t5296\t謝謝 麻煩任市長請任市長\n9758\t36238\t委員長 委員長早安今天要跟你請教一下就是有關職場霸凌的部分我想去年11月3號就是台灣我們這邊鬧得蠻大的就是那個無信公務員輕生之後那其實我們國內就開始都重視這個公務員職場霸凌的一些問題那我們再看一下這幾年其實在公務員體系發生一個狀況就我自己擔任公務員公務員有24年的時間\n40061\t64352\t那這24年前那個時候的公務員其實是金飯碗大家都很喜歡當公務員但是我們看這幾年其實發生一個狀況就是因為退休金被刪除的關係所以導致這幾年公務員的薪水也不好退休金又被刪就導致報考率一直逐年的下降那比之前少非常多\n65012\t93284\t所以除了這個經濟部分的問題之外我想其他部分我們是不是有提供給公務員一個有保障的法規這也是一個很重要而且能夠吸引優秀的人才能當公務員的一個重要的事情我們想到前一段時間我們一直在討論說公務員不管是過勞的問題或是霸凌的問題目前我們來看公務員還是沒有辦法納入職安法的保護對不對\n94960\t117753\t我們現在就公務人員保障法跟安慰幫法那是2月的時候保訓會那時候有開一個那個防治公務人員職場霸凌法治研修的會議那政府目前的方向我想說還是希望說把這個公部門的霸凌是放在公務員保障法的架構下面去處理就是跟就是職安的部分要脫鉤\n119795\t141375\t對 我想說目前是這樣但是呢 人事總署當然啦 政府的這個想法我們是有點失望啦但是我想說人事行政總署你們總是整個政府的HR所有的機關的人事部門是由你們在掌管嘛那從這個人資的管理的專業角度\n142316\t160798\t出發我們還是蠻希望說你們能夠發揮你們的角色能夠來適當的處理這個霸凌的問題那我想說從去年這個無姓公務員的這個事情之後其實不管是行政院 速發部等等的公家機關都有被踢爆有很多霸凌的案子\n161559\t179518\t那衛福部調查後也有八個案子那現在在調查之後呢其實陸陸續續都確認有霸凌的問題所以這個霸凌現在在我們的公務員體系裡面它並不是一個假議題它是一個真實存在的那我想請問人事長一個最簡單的問題霸凌的定義到底是什麼\n181021\t200631\t霸凌它是一個持續性的對上對下或者下對上也有可能下對上或者同等的同仁之間長期的那一種所謂的有一種歧視的一些作為歧視包含肢體還有口語的\n201631\t216273\t所以有時候我們同仁在跟我講就是說眼影按摩的概念有的人講話就是比較沒有修飾啦就比較講得比較土一點這這樣霸凌的定義會不會過於空泛\n217546\t233440\t事實上它因為就是definition的問題所以我們最近已經很高密度的跟保訓會在談這一些安慰辦法這一些定義因為定義要定清楚我們在執行才有一個依據嘛好\n234742\t253262\t我想說我大概懂那個任市長的意思啦就是說很多時候當然我們自己念法律的嘛有時候法律的解釋除了是法條之外再來就是要有實際的案例再來補充嘛我想說這個我可以理解啦所以是不是說除了法律的或者是一些\n254403\t269935\t公開的政府論述之外將來是需要有更多的案例來補充所謂的霸凌的解釋是不是我們事實上目前用最多的大概是法院的這些判決的一些案例我們是把它拿來引用\n272077\t289134\t這個會比較客觀而且明確啦那我想說這可能將來是不是也要麻煩你們能夠濃縮能夠摘出一些比較重要的案例然後來解釋給郭文廷因為有一些東西他的關於文字的解釋也許人民不是那麼容易懂\n289734\t305972\t就好像說之前那個國會改革的時候我們講反諮詢然後人家問我說反諮詢呢那我們說明完定義之後我們會說接下來還是需要有案例將來來補充這個部分的說明啦我覺得類似喔 我覺得法律人都這樣嘛法條\n306773\t327374\t再加判決判例然後來補充讓它整個完整所以我還是希望說很多東西包括霸凌的定義是什麼除了法條之外我們還要把將來可能法院上面審理或者是一些實際上面行政機關所受理的案例要把它明確化來告訴各個公務員什麼叫做霸凌\n328055\t356001\t那有些人他被霸凌他不自知那他看了也許他就懂他會去申訴或是有一些人他會知道自己的行為不對不可以這樣對別人所以還要麻煩你們在一起我們一起努力好我們這個大概原則上就如同我剛才講的我們會reference到整個法院的一些判例還有我們公務機關最近這一兩年實際的一些案例然後一個很重要的剛才委員提的我們會把它精簡\n357041\t380796\t讓一般同仁一看就看得懂那我想說 人總去年12月有提出一個霸凌女王那個嘛就他有幾個例子嘛 公務員 下屬說要請商駕他就說你怎麼不讓你爸爸趕快燒一燒就好或是說有人流產 他就說你早上墮胎處理一下下午就可以來上班或是叫部署幫他\n381917\t409329\t準備三餐 辦公室煮菜或是叫部署開車載他去做自己的事情或是把家裡的垃圾拿去辦公室叫部署處理我覺得類似像這種案例出來之後其實我們就可以告訴其他的公務員有這些例子這些一個一個案例的累積我覺得對於將來我們對於霸凌這個定義是能夠更精確因為法律總是要法律其實是要求要明確化我想那個\n410129\t425258\t人長一定非常知道這個道理我們就只能就是將來再多給我們一些這樣的案例讓我們能夠更了解霸凌的定義到底是什麼最後這個主管當然後來是被記兩大過免職我想說這是一個好事\n427579\t448810\t其實我覺得要不是說之前有那位無姓公務員的不幸事件其實也不會讓大家這麼重視有這個公家機關有這個問題那我自己我自己我剛剛說我當了24年的公務員那我博士班念的是公共衛生那我們也都知道其實職場職場的這個健康狀況它本來就是社會致病因子的其中一種\n449830\t476709\t所以職場的心理衛生的狀況它本來就影響到個人的身體健康以及家庭的問題所以這塊處理好其實對家庭以及對於我們說健保也是一個好事因為它讓這個社會致病因子減少的話讓人民其實可以更健康那我再請教一下就是目前各個機關它有一些有那個霸凌申訴的評議會\n478971\t496339\t那我看了一下六都啊六都有五都的這個評議會都有外部委員的參與但是高雄沒有但是六都以外的縣市像彰化新竹金門也都沒有剩下只有內部委員那我想請問一下你們人事總署你們\n497219\t521030\t的相關的那個評議會都有請外部委員但是有一些地方的機關地方縣市政府並沒有那我想請教一下就是人長就這個部分你們有沒有思考去定一個標準要求國內的各公家機關的相關評議會都能夠強制的一定要有一定比例的外部委員在裡面\n521690\t535307\t否則啊 我們接到的那個申訴案件我們某一個縣市有一個申訴案件他去做霸凌的申訴 就發現調查小組 申訴小組裡面的成員都是自己機關內的長官\n537029\t554250\t那你也知道啦就是說在同一個機關內上班有時候他會不知道怎麼講啦甚至他講了以後這個霸凌者搞不好就是這個申訴委員會裡面的長官或者是長官的好朋友那這個要他怎麼處理我想請教一下你們的想法\n554970\t574239\t我跟委員報告因為目前在包含剛才委員關心的霸凌的定義還有一些相關細節還沒有制定我們現在是通案給各個機關就是看各個地方政府或者政府機關他們自己去做一個判斷可是當這個安慰辦法修正以後\n574859\t589870\t這些像我們目前大概會要求三分之一都是外部委員的這個部分到時候我們會直接寫進來大家有一個依詢而且相關的以疑似霸凌者的這些人\n590390\t617091\t不予參與整個調查的一個程序剛才委員所關心的這個議題我們會在安慰辦法裡面會把它落入相關那你們可以兩個月內給我一個簡單的報告就可以嗎兩個月內不用很複雜啦給我簡單的報告告訴我你們怎麼處理這件事情可以可以沒問題那另外還有一個東西就是因為人事總署有一個霸凌申訴平台在去年12月上線對不對那裡面有提到用保密的方式來處理\n618872\t640949\t但是呢 因為這個平台要公務員具名檢舉但是你們說你們會保密那我想請教一下 人種在收到這個檢舉之後是用什麼方式來進行處理 或者是事後的追蹤那怎麼樣可以讓這個被檢舉的那個機關不會知道是誰來檢舉的你們的做法是怎麼樣\n644472\t670393\t這個部分的話原則上我們各機關都會請他指定那個收件的一個窗口所以我們在平台收到案件之後呢我們就會傳遞給這個機關指定的窗口由這個窗口他們去做後續的處理那在相關的處理作業上面我們也有要求機關要依循保密的原則去做後續的釐清跟調查\n670993\t694373\t那機關他在處理完成之後的結果他也要回到這個平台通報他處理的結果是成立不成立那對於成立的案子他是給他做懲處還是做調理調整職務還是做其他的處理在這個平台上面我們也會請他要回報到這個平台來\n695674\t720951\t事後的列管呢事後列管我們就會在這個平台去看如果他超過期限還沒有完成的話那我們也會試著去了解是什麼原因因為事務處理上面來講的話有些機關因為剛剛人上也有提到都要有外部委員的參與所以這個有些機關可能案子比較複雜另外也是專家學者的時間\n722412\t738923\t因為不好booking所以這個調查的程序上面來講的話有時候處理上會稍微晚一點也會有這種情形但是不管結果怎麼樣我們那個後平台的部分我們都一定要他回報處理結果以上\n740444\t760661\t最後幾十秒我講一下因為有很多公務員跟我們說這個申訴平台他們就覺得是很黑箱他們也不是那麼信任那是不是可以麻煩你們事後再追蹤的時候幫我們多加一項就是去問一下這個檢舉人\n762847\t785478\t有沒有就是有人洩密或公開了他的資訊這件事情好不好我覺得這最重要喔公務員敢不敢檢舉很多人都是怕自己的身份被公開那你們可以做事後的跟他詢問有沒有這個事情然後要做個整理你才能夠再精進自己的這套系統吧我如果今天說我被霸凌了\n786809\t806091\t但是呢我又覺得說你們把這個事情公開出去會不會有這個狀況我覺得如果是這樣的話我反而當事人他會有疑慮因為他如果說他疑是怎樣怎樣應該是他服務的機關那個調查的機關他直接又跟他回應如果\n807418\t835537\t他一定要問這個議題的話 反而會讓他覺得會再度受傷反而有其他的疑慮事情已經發生 我只是說你們有說你們會做事後的追蹤那事後追蹤當然有包括到你有沒有處理好這個案子但是我只是想要知道一個點就是會不會有公務員他們擔心因為他們申訴之後他的事情被曝光出去那你們不用做最後了解一下這個狀況嗎\n837859\t857081\t去做將來政策的微調跟委員報告就是說今天在這個平台的申訴來講即使是就是說他具名如果我們又再去問當事人說你們機關有沒有疑似洩密或是什麼其實對當事人來講可能他也會擔心說你們怎麼知道我這個案子\n857852\t875421\t你不是居民跟他們 他們不是居民跟你檢舉嗎對 但是如果說要逐一去了解每一個人他有沒有疑似被洩密這個對當事人來講的話 他也會擔心說這個是不是他已經被洩密 我們才去這樣子問他\n877162\t899997\t所以這個部分剛剛人士想提到就是說 不然這樣好了啦 我想時間的關係啦我也不想再聽你們 因為我覺得你講的這個邏輯我聽不懂我邏輯我真的聽不懂 他今天具名跟你們檢舉你們事後問他們 每一案 通案每一案都問 而不是個案問通案都問說 你這個處理之後 你有沒有發現這個申訴小組把你資料流出去\n900757\t928486\t你就是問這樣子而已你說會造成他心裡什麼樣 這邏輯我不懂啦我們來設計一下 就是整個結案以後會讓當事人去填他對這個案子的滿意度或者因為這個是公務員最在乎的有沒有被申訴單位把他的資料流出去你認為說問他這個對他什麼傷害 我聽不懂你們的邏輯啦 真的好 那我請你兩個月內一樣把這個申訴平台處理方式還有這個我剛剛提到的這個\n929426\t957324\t最後能不能夠去問這個申訴者他們對於有沒有被保密這個東西的想法你們看你們要怎麼做再麻煩你們告訴我我跟你說我不是找你們麻煩我只是說聽聽看他們的想法去做政策的微調我很肯定你們的政策但是竟然有公務員跟我們講他們很怕申訴完之後被申訴機那個處理機關流出去那你就了解一下嘛如果每樣問一問之後大家都很滿意那不是更棒嗎我的邏輯只是這樣\n957904\t964327\t好 謝謝吳宗憲委員那確實啦這個霸凌的申訴這個部分追蹤的部分那個平台再跟吳委員來做一個說明那我們早上我看這個現在剩下上午的時間剩下20幾秒而已\n","txt":"謝謝 麻煩任市長請任市長\n委員長 委員長早安今天要跟你請教一下就是有關職場霸凌的部分我想去年11月3號就是台灣我們這邊鬧得蠻大的就是那個無信公務員輕生之後那其實我們國內就開始都重視這個公務員職場霸凌的一些問題那我們再看一下這幾年其實在公務員體系發生一個狀況就我自己擔任公務員公務員有24年的時間\n那這24年前那個時候的公務員其實是金飯碗大家都很喜歡當公務員但是我們看這幾年其實發生一個狀況就是因為退休金被刪除的關係所以導致這幾年公務員的薪水也不好退休金又被刪就導致報考率一直逐年的下降那比之前少非常多\n所以除了這個經濟部分的問題之外我想其他部分我們是不是有提供給公務員一個有保障的法規這也是一個很重要而且能夠吸引優秀的人才能當公務員的一個重要的事情我們想到前一段時間我們一直在討論說公務員不管是過勞的問題或是霸凌的問題目前我們來看公務員還是沒有辦法納入職安法的保護對不對\n我們現在就公務人員保障法跟安慰幫法那是2月的時候保訓會那時候有開一個那個防治公務人員職場霸凌法治研修的會議那政府目前的方向我想說還是希望說把這個公部門的霸凌是放在公務員保障法的架構下面去處理就是跟就是職安的部分要脫鉤\n對 我想說目前是這樣但是呢 人事總署當然啦 政府的這個想法我們是有點失望啦但是我想說人事行政總署你們總是整個政府的HR所有的機關的人事部門是由你們在掌管嘛那從這個人資的管理的專業角度\n出發我們還是蠻希望說你們能夠發揮你們的角色能夠來適當的處理這個霸凌的問題那我想說從去年這個無姓公務員的這個事情之後其實不管是行政院 速發部等等的公家機關都有被踢爆有很多霸凌的案子\n那衛福部調查後也有八個案子那現在在調查之後呢其實陸陸續續都確認有霸凌的問題所以這個霸凌現在在我們的公務員體系裡面它並不是一個假議題它是一個真實存在的那我想請問人事長一個最簡單的問題霸凌的定義到底是什麼\n霸凌它是一個持續性的對上對下或者下對上也有可能下對上或者同等的同仁之間長期的那一種所謂的有一種歧視的一些作為歧視包含肢體還有口語的\n所以有時候我們同仁在跟我講就是說眼影按摩的概念有的人講話就是比較沒有修飾啦就比較講得比較土一點這這樣霸凌的定義會不會過於空泛\n事實上它因為就是definition的問題所以我們最近已經很高密度的跟保訓會在談這一些安慰辦法這一些定義因為定義要定清楚我們在執行才有一個依據嘛好\n我想說我大概懂那個任市長的意思啦就是說很多時候當然我們自己念法律的嘛有時候法律的解釋除了是法條之外再來就是要有實際的案例再來補充嘛我想說這個我可以理解啦所以是不是說除了法律的或者是一些\n公開的政府論述之外將來是需要有更多的案例來補充所謂的霸凌的解釋是不是我們事實上目前用最多的大概是法院的這些判決的一些案例我們是把它拿來引用\n這個會比較客觀而且明確啦那我想說這可能將來是不是也要麻煩你們能夠濃縮能夠摘出一些比較重要的案例然後來解釋給郭文廷因為有一些東西他的關於文字的解釋也許人民不是那麼容易懂\n就好像說之前那個國會改革的時候我們講反諮詢然後人家問我說反諮詢呢那我們說明完定義之後我們會說接下來還是需要有案例將來來補充這個部分的說明啦我覺得類似喔 我覺得法律人都這樣嘛法條\n再加判決判例然後來補充讓它整個完整所以我還是希望說很多東西包括霸凌的定義是什麼除了法條之外我們還要把將來可能法院上面審理或者是一些實際上面行政機關所受理的案例要把它明確化來告訴各個公務員什麼叫做霸凌\n那有些人他被霸凌他不自知那他看了也許他就懂他會去申訴或是有一些人他會知道自己的行為不對不可以這樣對別人所以還要麻煩你們在一起我們一起努力好我們這個大概原則上就如同我剛才講的我們會reference到整個法院的一些判例還有我們公務機關最近這一兩年實際的一些案例然後一個很重要的剛才委員提的我們會把它精簡\n讓一般同仁一看就看得懂那我想說 人總去年12月有提出一個霸凌女王那個嘛就他有幾個例子嘛 公務員 下屬說要請商駕他就說你怎麼不讓你爸爸趕快燒一燒就好或是說有人流產 他就說你早上墮胎處理一下下午就可以來上班或是叫部署幫他\n準備三餐 辦公室煮菜或是叫部署開車載他去做自己的事情或是把家裡的垃圾拿去辦公室叫部署處理我覺得類似像這種案例出來之後其實我們就可以告訴其他的公務員有這些例子這些一個一個案例的累積我覺得對於將來我們對於霸凌這個定義是能夠更精確因為法律總是要法律其實是要求要明確化我想那個\n人長一定非常知道這個道理我們就只能就是將來再多給我們一些這樣的案例讓我們能夠更了解霸凌的定義到底是什麼最後這個主管當然後來是被記兩大過免職我想說這是一個好事\n其實我覺得要不是說之前有那位無姓公務員的不幸事件其實也不會讓大家這麼重視有這個公家機關有這個問題那我自己我自己我剛剛說我當了24年的公務員那我博士班念的是公共衛生那我們也都知道其實職場職場的這個健康狀況它本來就是社會致病因子的其中一種\n所以職場的心理衛生的狀況它本來就影響到個人的身體健康以及家庭的問題所以這塊處理好其實對家庭以及對於我們說健保也是一個好事因為它讓這個社會致病因子減少的話讓人民其實可以更健康那我再請教一下就是目前各個機關它有一些有那個霸凌申訴的評議會\n那我看了一下六都啊六都有五都的這個評議會都有外部委員的參與但是高雄沒有但是六都以外的縣市像彰化新竹金門也都沒有剩下只有內部委員那我想請問一下你們人事總署你們\n的相關的那個評議會都有請外部委員但是有一些地方的機關地方縣市政府並沒有那我想請教一下就是人長就這個部分你們有沒有思考去定一個標準要求國內的各公家機關的相關評議會都能夠強制的一定要有一定比例的外部委員在裡面\n否則啊 我們接到的那個申訴案件我們某一個縣市有一個申訴案件他去做霸凌的申訴 就發現調查小組 申訴小組裡面的成員都是自己機關內的長官\n那你也知道啦就是說在同一個機關內上班有時候他會不知道怎麼講啦甚至他講了以後這個霸凌者搞不好就是這個申訴委員會裡面的長官或者是長官的好朋友那這個要他怎麼處理我想請教一下你們的想法\n我跟委員報告因為目前在包含剛才委員關心的霸凌的定義還有一些相關細節還沒有制定我們現在是通案給各個機關就是看各個地方政府或者政府機關他們自己去做一個判斷可是當這個安慰辦法修正以後\n這些像我們目前大概會要求三分之一都是外部委員的這個部分到時候我們會直接寫進來大家有一個依詢而且相關的以疑似霸凌者的這些人\n不予參與整個調查的一個程序剛才委員所關心的這個議題我們會在安慰辦法裡面會把它落入相關那你們可以兩個月內給我一個簡單的報告就可以嗎兩個月內不用很複雜啦給我簡單的報告告訴我你們怎麼處理這件事情可以可以沒問題那另外還有一個東西就是因為人事總署有一個霸凌申訴平台在去年12月上線對不對那裡面有提到用保密的方式來處理\n但是呢 因為這個平台要公務員具名檢舉但是你們說你們會保密那我想請教一下 人種在收到這個檢舉之後是用什麼方式來進行處理 或者是事後的追蹤那怎麼樣可以讓這個被檢舉的那個機關不會知道是誰來檢舉的你們的做法是怎麼樣\n這個部分的話原則上我們各機關都會請他指定那個收件的一個窗口所以我們在平台收到案件之後呢我們就會傳遞給這個機關指定的窗口由這個窗口他們去做後續的處理那在相關的處理作業上面我們也有要求機關要依循保密的原則去做後續的釐清跟調查\n那機關他在處理完成之後的結果他也要回到這個平台通報他處理的結果是成立不成立那對於成立的案子他是給他做懲處還是做調理調整職務還是做其他的處理在這個平台上面我們也會請他要回報到這個平台來\n事後的列管呢事後列管我們就會在這個平台去看如果他超過期限還沒有完成的話那我們也會試著去了解是什麼原因因為事務處理上面來講的話有些機關因為剛剛人上也有提到都要有外部委員的參與所以這個有些機關可能案子比較複雜另外也是專家學者的時間\n因為不好booking所以這個調查的程序上面來講的話有時候處理上會稍微晚一點也會有這種情形但是不管結果怎麼樣我們那個後平台的部分我們都一定要他回報處理結果以上\n最後幾十秒我講一下因為有很多公務員跟我們說這個申訴平台他們就覺得是很黑箱他們也不是那麼信任那是不是可以麻煩你們事後再追蹤的時候幫我們多加一項就是去問一下這個檢舉人\n有沒有就是有人洩密或公開了他的資訊這件事情好不好我覺得這最重要喔公務員敢不敢檢舉很多人都是怕自己的身份被公開那你們可以做事後的跟他詢問有沒有這個事情然後要做個整理你才能夠再精進自己的這套系統吧我如果今天說我被霸凌了\n但是呢我又覺得說你們把這個事情公開出去會不會有這個狀況我覺得如果是這樣的話我反而當事人他會有疑慮因為他如果說他疑是怎樣怎樣應該是他服務的機關那個調查的機關他直接又跟他回應如果\n他一定要問這個議題的話 反而會讓他覺得會再度受傷反而有其他的疑慮事情已經發生 我只是說你們有說你們會做事後的追蹤那事後追蹤當然有包括到你有沒有處理好這個案子但是我只是想要知道一個點就是會不會有公務員他們擔心因為他們申訴之後他的事情被曝光出去那你們不用做最後了解一下這個狀況嗎\n去做將來政策的微調跟委員報告就是說今天在這個平台的申訴來講即使是就是說他具名如果我們又再去問當事人說你們機關有沒有疑似洩密或是什麼其實對當事人來講可能他也會擔心說你們怎麼知道我這個案子\n你不是居民跟他們 他們不是居民跟你檢舉嗎對 但是如果說要逐一去了解每一個人他有沒有疑似被洩密這個對當事人來講的話 他也會擔心說這個是不是他已經被洩密 我們才去這樣子問他\n所以這個部分剛剛人士想提到就是說 不然這樣好了啦 我想時間的關係啦我也不想再聽你們 因為我覺得你講的這個邏輯我聽不懂我邏輯我真的聽不懂 他今天具名跟你們檢舉你們事後問他們 每一案 通案每一案都問 而不是個案問通案都問說 你這個處理之後 你有沒有發現這個申訴小組把你資料流出去\n你就是問這樣子而已你說會造成他心裡什麼樣 這邏輯我不懂啦我們來設計一下 就是整個結案以後會讓當事人去填他對這個案子的滿意度或者因為這個是公務員最在乎的有沒有被申訴單位把他的資料流出去你認為說問他這個對他什麼傷害 我聽不懂你們的邏輯啦 真的好 那我請你兩個月內一樣把這個申訴平台處理方式還有這個我剛剛提到的這個\n最後能不能夠去問這個申訴者他們對於有沒有被保密這個東西的想法你們看你們要怎麼做再麻煩你們告訴我我跟你說我不是找你們麻煩我只是說聽聽看他們的想法去做政策的微調我很肯定你們的政策但是竟然有公務員跟我們講他們很怕申訴完之後被申訴機那個處理機關流出去那你就了解一下嘛如果每樣問一問之後大家都很滿意那不是更棒嗎我的邏輯只是這樣\n好 謝謝吳宗憲委員那確實啦這個霸凌的申訴這個部分追蹤的部分那個平台再跟吳委員來做一個說明那我們早上我看這個現在剩下上午的時間剩下20幾秒而已\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.555 --> 00:05.296\n謝謝麻煩任市長請任市長\n\n00:09.758 --> 00:36.238\n委員長委員長早安今天要跟你請教一下就是有關職場霸凌的部分我想去年11月3號就是台灣我們這邊鬧得蠻大的就是那個無信公務員輕生之後那其實我們國內就開始都重視這個公務員職場霸凌的一些問題那我們再看一下這幾年其實在公務員體系發生一個狀況就我自己擔任公務員公務員有24年的時間\n\n00:40.061 --> 01:04.352\n那這24年前那個時候的公務員其實是金飯碗大家都很喜歡當公務員但是我們看這幾年其實發生一個狀況就是因為退休金被刪除的關係所以導致這幾年公務員的薪水也不好退休金又被刪就導致報考率一直逐年的下降那比之前少非常多\n\n01:05.012 --> 01:33.284\n所以除了這個經濟部分的問題之外我想其他部分我們是不是有提供給公務員一個有保障的法規這也是一個很重要而且能夠吸引優秀的人才能當公務員的一個重要的事情我們想到前一段時間我們一直在討論說公務員不管是過勞的問題或是霸凌的問題目前我們來看公務員還是沒有辦法納入職安法的保護對不對\n\n01:34.960 --> 01:57.753\n我們現在就公務人員保障法跟安慰幫法那是2月的時候保訓會那時候有開一個那個防治公務人員職場霸凌法治研修的會議那政府目前的方向我想說還是希望說把這個公部門的霸凌是放在公務員保障法的架構下面去處理就是跟就是職安的部分要脫鉤\n\n01:59.795 --> 02:21.375\n對我想說目前是這樣但是呢人事總署當然啦政府的這個想法我們是有點失望啦但是我想說人事行政總署你們總是整個政府的HR所有的機關的人事部門是由你們在掌管嘛那從這個人資的管理的專業角度\n\n02:22.316 --> 02:40.798\n出發我們還是蠻希望說你們能夠發揮你們的角色能夠來適當的處理這個霸凌的問題那我想說從去年這個無姓公務員的這個事情之後其實不管是行政院速發部等等的公家機關都有被踢爆有很多霸凌的案子\n\n02:41.559 --> 02:59.518\n那衛福部調查後也有八個案子那現在在調查之後呢其實陸陸續續都確認有霸凌的問題所以這個霸凌現在在我們的公務員體系裡面它並不是一個假議題它是一個真實存在的那我想請問人事長一個最簡單的問題霸凌的定義到底是什麼\n\n03:01.021 --> 03:20.631\n霸凌它是一個持續性的對上對下或者下對上也有可能下對上或者同等的同仁之間長期的那一種所謂的有一種歧視的一些作為歧視包含肢體還有口語的\n\n03:21.631 --> 03:36.273\n所以有時候我們同仁在跟我講就是說眼影按摩的概念有的人講話就是比較沒有修飾啦就比較講得比較土一點這這樣霸凌的定義會不會過於空泛\n\n03:37.546 --> 03:53.440\n事實上它因為就是definition的問題所以我們最近已經很高密度的跟保訓會在談這一些安慰辦法這一些定義因為定義要定清楚我們在執行才有一個依據嘛好\n\n03:54.742 --> 04:13.262\n我想說我大概懂那個任市長的意思啦就是說很多時候當然我們自己念法律的嘛有時候法律的解釋除了是法條之外再來就是要有實際的案例再來補充嘛我想說這個我可以理解啦所以是不是說除了法律的或者是一些\n\n04:14.403 --> 04:29.935\n公開的政府論述之外將來是需要有更多的案例來補充所謂的霸凌的解釋是不是我們事實上目前用最多的大概是法院的這些判決的一些案例我們是把它拿來引用\n\n04:32.077 --> 04:49.134\n這個會比較客觀而且明確啦那我想說這可能將來是不是也要麻煩你們能夠濃縮能夠摘出一些比較重要的案例然後來解釋給郭文廷因為有一些東西他的關於文字的解釋也許人民不是那麼容易懂\n\n04:49.734 --> 05:05.972\n就好像說之前那個國會改革的時候我們講反諮詢然後人家問我說反諮詢呢那我們說明完定義之後我們會說接下來還是需要有案例將來來補充這個部分的說明啦我覺得類似喔我覺得法律人都這樣嘛法條\n\n05:06.773 --> 05:27.374\n再加判決判例然後來補充讓它整個完整所以我還是希望說很多東西包括霸凌的定義是什麼除了法條之外我們還要把將來可能法院上面審理或者是一些實際上面行政機關所受理的案例要把它明確化來告訴各個公務員什麼叫做霸凌\n\n05:28.055 --> 05:56.001\n那有些人他被霸凌他不自知那他看了也許他就懂他會去申訴或是有一些人他會知道自己的行為不對不可以這樣對別人所以還要麻煩你們在一起我們一起努力好我們這個大概原則上就如同我剛才講的我們會reference到整個法院的一些判例還有我們公務機關最近這一兩年實際的一些案例然後一個很重要的剛才委員提的我們會把它精簡\n\n05:57.041 --> 06:20.796\n讓一般同仁一看就看得懂那我想說人總去年12月有提出一個霸凌女王那個嘛就他有幾個例子嘛公務員下屬說要請商駕他就說你怎麼不讓你爸爸趕快燒一燒就好或是說有人流產他就說你早上墮胎處理一下下午就可以來上班或是叫部署幫他\n\n06:21.917 --> 06:49.329\n準備三餐辦公室煮菜或是叫部署開車載他去做自己的事情或是把家裡的垃圾拿去辦公室叫部署處理我覺得類似像這種案例出來之後其實我們就可以告訴其他的公務員有這些例子這些一個一個案例的累積我覺得對於將來我們對於霸凌這個定義是能夠更精確因為法律總是要法律其實是要求要明確化我想那個\n\n06:50.129 --> 07:05.258\n人長一定非常知道這個道理我們就只能就是將來再多給我們一些這樣的案例讓我們能夠更了解霸凌的定義到底是什麼最後這個主管當然後來是被記兩大過免職我想說這是一個好事\n\n07:07.579 --> 07:28.810\n其實我覺得要不是說之前有那位無姓公務員的不幸事件其實也不會讓大家這麼重視有這個公家機關有這個問題那我自己我自己我剛剛說我當了24年的公務員那我博士班念的是公共衛生那我們也都知道其實職場職場的這個健康狀況它本來就是社會致病因子的其中一種\n\n07:29.830 --> 07:56.709\n所以職場的心理衛生的狀況它本來就影響到個人的身體健康以及家庭的問題所以這塊處理好其實對家庭以及對於我們說健保也是一個好事因為它讓這個社會致病因子減少的話讓人民其實可以更健康那我再請教一下就是目前各個機關它有一些有那個霸凌申訴的評議會\n\n07:58.971 --> 08:16.339\n那我看了一下六都啊六都有五都的這個評議會都有外部委員的參與但是高雄沒有但是六都以外的縣市像彰化新竹金門也都沒有剩下只有內部委員那我想請問一下你們人事總署你們\n\n08:17.219 --> 08:41.030\n的相關的那個評議會都有請外部委員但是有一些地方的機關地方縣市政府並沒有那我想請教一下就是人長就這個部分你們有沒有思考去定一個標準要求國內的各公家機關的相關評議會都能夠強制的一定要有一定比例的外部委員在裡面\n\n08:41.690 --> 08:55.307\n否則啊我們接到的那個申訴案件我們某一個縣市有一個申訴案件他去做霸凌的申訴就發現調查小組申訴小組裡面的成員都是自己機關內的長官\n\n08:57.029 --> 09:14.250\n那你也知道啦就是說在同一個機關內上班有時候他會不知道怎麼講啦甚至他講了以後這個霸凌者搞不好就是這個申訴委員會裡面的長官或者是長官的好朋友那這個要他怎麼處理我想請教一下你們的想法\n\n09:14.970 --> 09:34.239\n我跟委員報告因為目前在包含剛才委員關心的霸凌的定義還有一些相關細節還沒有制定我們現在是通案給各個機關就是看各個地方政府或者政府機關他們自己去做一個判斷可是當這個安慰辦法修正以後\n\n09:34.859 --> 09:49.870\n這些像我們目前大概會要求三分之一都是外部委員的這個部分到時候我們會直接寫進來大家有一個依詢而且相關的以疑似霸凌者的這些人\n\n09:50.390 --> 10:17.091\n不予參與整個調查的一個程序剛才委員所關心的這個議題我們會在安慰辦法裡面會把它落入相關那你們可以兩個月內給我一個簡單的報告就可以嗎兩個月內不用很複雜啦給我簡單的報告告訴我你們怎麼處理這件事情可以可以沒問題那另外還有一個東西就是因為人事總署有一個霸凌申訴平台在去年12月上線對不對那裡面有提到用保密的方式來處理\n\n10:18.872 --> 10:40.949\n但是呢因為這個平台要公務員具名檢舉但是你們說你們會保密那我想請教一下人種在收到這個檢舉之後是用什麼方式來進行處理或者是事後的追蹤那怎麼樣可以讓這個被檢舉的那個機關不會知道是誰來檢舉的你們的做法是怎麼樣\n\n10:44.472 --> 11:10.393\n這個部分的話原則上我們各機關都會請他指定那個收件的一個窗口所以我們在平台收到案件之後呢我們就會傳遞給這個機關指定的窗口由這個窗口他們去做後續的處理那在相關的處理作業上面我們也有要求機關要依循保密的原則去做後續的釐清跟調查\n\n11:10.993 --> 11:34.373\n那機關他在處理完成之後的結果他也要回到這個平台通報他處理的結果是成立不成立那對於成立的案子他是給他做懲處還是做調理調整職務還是做其他的處理在這個平台上面我們也會請他要回報到這個平台來\n\n11:35.674 --> 12:00.951\n事後的列管呢事後列管我們就會在這個平台去看如果他超過期限還沒有完成的話那我們也會試著去了解是什麼原因因為事務處理上面來講的話有些機關因為剛剛人上也有提到都要有外部委員的參與所以這個有些機關可能案子比較複雜另外也是專家學者的時間\n\n12:02.412 --> 12:18.923\n因為不好booking所以這個調查的程序上面來講的話有時候處理上會稍微晚一點也會有這種情形但是不管結果怎麼樣我們那個後平台的部分我們都一定要他回報處理結果以上\n\n12:20.444 --> 12:40.661\n最後幾十秒我講一下因為有很多公務員跟我們說這個申訴平台他們就覺得是很黑箱他們也不是那麼信任那是不是可以麻煩你們事後再追蹤的時候幫我們多加一項就是去問一下這個檢舉人\n\n12:42.847 --> 13:05.478\n有沒有就是有人洩密或公開了他的資訊這件事情好不好我覺得這最重要喔公務員敢不敢檢舉很多人都是怕自己的身份被公開那你們可以做事後的跟他詢問有沒有這個事情然後要做個整理你才能夠再精進自己的這套系統吧我如果今天說我被霸凌了\n\n13:06.809 --> 13:26.091\n但是呢我又覺得說你們把這個事情公開出去會不會有這個狀況我覺得如果是這樣的話我反而當事人他會有疑慮因為他如果說他疑是怎樣怎樣應該是他服務的機關那個調查的機關他直接又跟他回應如果\n\n13:27.418 --> 13:55.537\n他一定要問這個議題的話反而會讓他覺得會再度受傷反而有其他的疑慮事情已經發生我只是說你們有說你們會做事後的追蹤那事後追蹤當然有包括到你有沒有處理好這個案子但是我只是想要知道一個點就是會不會有公務員他們擔心因為他們申訴之後他的事情被曝光出去那你們不用做最後了解一下這個狀況嗎\n\n13:57.859 --> 14:17.081\n去做將來政策的微調跟委員報告就是說今天在這個平台的申訴來講即使是就是說他具名如果我們又再去問當事人說你們機關有沒有疑似洩密或是什麼其實對當事人來講可能他也會擔心說你們怎麼知道我這個案子\n\n14:17.852 --> 14:35.421\n你不是居民跟他們他們不是居民跟你檢舉嗎對但是如果說要逐一去了解每一個人他有沒有疑似被洩密這個對當事人來講的話他也會擔心說這個是不是他已經被洩密我們才去這樣子問他\n\n14:37.162 --> 14:59.997\n所以這個部分剛剛人士想提到就是說不然這樣好了啦我想時間的關係啦我也不想再聽你們因為我覺得你講的這個邏輯我聽不懂我邏輯我真的聽不懂他今天具名跟你們檢舉你們事後問他們每一案通案每一案都問而不是個案問通案都問說你這個處理之後你有沒有發現這個申訴小組把你資料流出去\n\n15:00.757 --> 15:28.486\n你就是問這樣子而已你說會造成他心裡什麼樣這邏輯我不懂啦我們來設計一下就是整個結案以後會讓當事人去填他對這個案子的滿意度或者因為這個是公務員最在乎的有沒有被申訴單位把他的資料流出去你認為說問他這個對他什麼傷害我聽不懂你們的邏輯啦真的好那我請你兩個月內一樣把這個申訴平台處理方式還有這個我剛剛提到的這個\n\n15:29.426 --> 15:57.324\n最後能不能夠去問這個申訴者他們對於有沒有被保密這個東西的想法你們看你們要怎麼做再麻煩你們告訴我我跟你說我不是找你們麻煩我只是說聽聽看他們的想法去做政策的微調我很肯定你們的政策但是竟然有公務員跟我們講他們很怕申訴完之後被申訴機那個處理機關流出去那你就了解一下嘛如果每樣問一問之後大家都很滿意那不是更棒嗎我的邏輯只是這樣\n\n15:57.904 --> 16:04.327\n好謝謝吳宗憲委員那確實啦這個霸凌的申訴這個部分追蹤的部分那個平台再跟吳委員來做一個說明那我們早上我看這個現在剩下上午的時間剩下20幾秒而已\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.555,"end":5.296,"text":"謝謝 麻煩任市長請任市長"},{"start":9.758,"end":36.238,"text":"委員長 委員長早安今天要跟你請教一下就是有關職場霸凌的部分我想去年11月3號就是台灣我們這邊鬧得蠻大的就是那個無信公務員輕生之後那其實我們國內就開始都重視這個公務員職場霸凌的一些問題那我們再看一下這幾年其實在公務員體系發生一個狀況就我自己擔任公務員公務員有24年的時間"},{"start":40.061,"end":64.352,"text":"那這24年前那個時候的公務員其實是金飯碗大家都很喜歡當公務員但是我們看這幾年其實發生一個狀況就是因為退休金被刪除的關係所以導致這幾年公務員的薪水也不好退休金又被刪就導致報考率一直逐年的下降那比之前少非常多"},{"start":65.012,"end":93.284,"text":"所以除了這個經濟部分的問題之外我想其他部分我們是不是有提供給公務員一個有保障的法規這也是一個很重要而且能夠吸引優秀的人才能當公務員的一個重要的事情我們想到前一段時間我們一直在討論說公務員不管是過勞的問題或是霸凌的問題目前我們來看公務員還是沒有辦法納入職安法的保護對不對"},{"start":94.96,"end":117.753,"text":"我們現在就公務人員保障法跟安慰幫法那是2月的時候保訓會那時候有開一個那個防治公務人員職場霸凌法治研修的會議那政府目前的方向我想說還是希望說把這個公部門的霸凌是放在公務員保障法的架構下面去處理就是跟就是職安的部分要脫鉤"},{"start":119.795,"end":141.375,"text":"對 我想說目前是這樣但是呢 人事總署當然啦 政府的這個想法我們是有點失望啦但是我想說人事行政總署你們總是整個政府的HR所有的機關的人事部門是由你們在掌管嘛那從這個人資的管理的專業角度"},{"start":142.316,"end":160.798,"text":"出發我們還是蠻希望說你們能夠發揮你們的角色能夠來適當的處理這個霸凌的問題那我想說從去年這個無姓公務員的這個事情之後其實不管是行政院 速發部等等的公家機關都有被踢爆有很多霸凌的案子"},{"start":161.559,"end":179.518,"text":"那衛福部調查後也有八個案子那現在在調查之後呢其實陸陸續續都確認有霸凌的問題所以這個霸凌現在在我們的公務員體系裡面它並不是一個假議題它是一個真實存在的那我想請問人事長一個最簡單的問題霸凌的定義到底是什麼"},{"start":181.021,"end":200.631,"text":"霸凌它是一個持續性的對上對下或者下對上也有可能下對上或者同等的同仁之間長期的那一種所謂的有一種歧視的一些作為歧視包含肢體還有口語的"},{"start":201.631,"end":216.273,"text":"所以有時候我們同仁在跟我講就是說眼影按摩的概念有的人講話就是比較沒有修飾啦就比較講得比較土一點這這樣霸凌的定義會不會過於空泛"},{"start":217.546,"end":233.44,"text":"事實上它因為就是definition的問題所以我們最近已經很高密度的跟保訓會在談這一些安慰辦法這一些定義因為定義要定清楚我們在執行才有一個依據嘛好"},{"start":234.742,"end":253.262,"text":"我想說我大概懂那個任市長的意思啦就是說很多時候當然我們自己念法律的嘛有時候法律的解釋除了是法條之外再來就是要有實際的案例再來補充嘛我想說這個我可以理解啦所以是不是說除了法律的或者是一些"},{"start":254.403,"end":269.935,"text":"公開的政府論述之外將來是需要有更多的案例來補充所謂的霸凌的解釋是不是我們事實上目前用最多的大概是法院的這些判決的一些案例我們是把它拿來引用"},{"start":272.077,"end":289.134,"text":"這個會比較客觀而且明確啦那我想說這可能將來是不是也要麻煩你們能夠濃縮能夠摘出一些比較重要的案例然後來解釋給郭文廷因為有一些東西他的關於文字的解釋也許人民不是那麼容易懂"},{"start":289.734,"end":305.972,"text":"就好像說之前那個國會改革的時候我們講反諮詢然後人家問我說反諮詢呢那我們說明完定義之後我們會說接下來還是需要有案例將來來補充這個部分的說明啦我覺得類似喔 我覺得法律人都這樣嘛法條"},{"start":306.773,"end":327.374,"text":"再加判決判例然後來補充讓它整個完整所以我還是希望說很多東西包括霸凌的定義是什麼除了法條之外我們還要把將來可能法院上面審理或者是一些實際上面行政機關所受理的案例要把它明確化來告訴各個公務員什麼叫做霸凌"},{"start":328.055,"end":356.001,"text":"那有些人他被霸凌他不自知那他看了也許他就懂他會去申訴或是有一些人他會知道自己的行為不對不可以這樣對別人所以還要麻煩你們在一起我們一起努力好我們這個大概原則上就如同我剛才講的我們會reference到整個法院的一些判例還有我們公務機關最近這一兩年實際的一些案例然後一個很重要的剛才委員提的我們會把它精簡"},{"start":357.041,"end":380.796,"text":"讓一般同仁一看就看得懂那我想說 人總去年12月有提出一個霸凌女王那個嘛就他有幾個例子嘛 公務員 下屬說要請商駕他就說你怎麼不讓你爸爸趕快燒一燒就好或是說有人流產 他就說你早上墮胎處理一下下午就可以來上班或是叫部署幫他"},{"start":381.917,"end":409.329,"text":"準備三餐 辦公室煮菜或是叫部署開車載他去做自己的事情或是把家裡的垃圾拿去辦公室叫部署處理我覺得類似像這種案例出來之後其實我們就可以告訴其他的公務員有這些例子這些一個一個案例的累積我覺得對於將來我們對於霸凌這個定義是能夠更精確因為法律總是要法律其實是要求要明確化我想那個"},{"start":410.129,"end":425.258,"text":"人長一定非常知道這個道理我們就只能就是將來再多給我們一些這樣的案例讓我們能夠更了解霸凌的定義到底是什麼最後這個主管當然後來是被記兩大過免職我想說這是一個好事"},{"start":427.579,"end":448.81,"text":"其實我覺得要不是說之前有那位無姓公務員的不幸事件其實也不會讓大家這麼重視有這個公家機關有這個問題那我自己我自己我剛剛說我當了24年的公務員那我博士班念的是公共衛生那我們也都知道其實職場職場的這個健康狀況它本來就是社會致病因子的其中一種"},{"start":449.83,"end":476.709,"text":"所以職場的心理衛生的狀況它本來就影響到個人的身體健康以及家庭的問題所以這塊處理好其實對家庭以及對於我們說健保也是一個好事因為它讓這個社會致病因子減少的話讓人民其實可以更健康那我再請教一下就是目前各個機關它有一些有那個霸凌申訴的評議會"},{"start":478.971,"end":496.339,"text":"那我看了一下六都啊六都有五都的這個評議會都有外部委員的參與但是高雄沒有但是六都以外的縣市像彰化新竹金門也都沒有剩下只有內部委員那我想請問一下你們人事總署你們"},{"start":497.219,"end":521.03,"text":"的相關的那個評議會都有請外部委員但是有一些地方的機關地方縣市政府並沒有那我想請教一下就是人長就這個部分你們有沒有思考去定一個標準要求國內的各公家機關的相關評議會都能夠強制的一定要有一定比例的外部委員在裡面"},{"start":521.69,"end":535.307,"text":"否則啊 我們接到的那個申訴案件我們某一個縣市有一個申訴案件他去做霸凌的申訴 就發現調查小組 申訴小組裡面的成員都是自己機關內的長官"},{"start":537.029,"end":554.25,"text":"那你也知道啦就是說在同一個機關內上班有時候他會不知道怎麼講啦甚至他講了以後這個霸凌者搞不好就是這個申訴委員會裡面的長官或者是長官的好朋友那這個要他怎麼處理我想請教一下你們的想法"},{"start":554.97,"end":574.239,"text":"我跟委員報告因為目前在包含剛才委員關心的霸凌的定義還有一些相關細節還沒有制定我們現在是通案給各個機關就是看各個地方政府或者政府機關他們自己去做一個判斷可是當這個安慰辦法修正以後"},{"start":574.859,"end":589.87,"text":"這些像我們目前大概會要求三分之一都是外部委員的這個部分到時候我們會直接寫進來大家有一個依詢而且相關的以疑似霸凌者的這些人"},{"start":590.39,"end":617.091,"text":"不予參與整個調查的一個程序剛才委員所關心的這個議題我們會在安慰辦法裡面會把它落入相關那你們可以兩個月內給我一個簡單的報告就可以嗎兩個月內不用很複雜啦給我簡單的報告告訴我你們怎麼處理這件事情可以可以沒問題那另外還有一個東西就是因為人事總署有一個霸凌申訴平台在去年12月上線對不對那裡面有提到用保密的方式來處理"},{"start":618.872,"end":640.949,"text":"但是呢 因為這個平台要公務員具名檢舉但是你們說你們會保密那我想請教一下 人種在收到這個檢舉之後是用什麼方式來進行處理 或者是事後的追蹤那怎麼樣可以讓這個被檢舉的那個機關不會知道是誰來檢舉的你們的做法是怎麼樣"},{"start":644.472,"end":670.393,"text":"這個部分的話原則上我們各機關都會請他指定那個收件的一個窗口所以我們在平台收到案件之後呢我們就會傳遞給這個機關指定的窗口由這個窗口他們去做後續的處理那在相關的處理作業上面我們也有要求機關要依循保密的原則去做後續的釐清跟調查"},{"start":670.993,"end":694.373,"text":"那機關他在處理完成之後的結果他也要回到這個平台通報他處理的結果是成立不成立那對於成立的案子他是給他做懲處還是做調理調整職務還是做其他的處理在這個平台上面我們也會請他要回報到這個平台來"},{"start":695.674,"end":720.951,"text":"事後的列管呢事後列管我們就會在這個平台去看如果他超過期限還沒有完成的話那我們也會試著去了解是什麼原因因為事務處理上面來講的話有些機關因為剛剛人上也有提到都要有外部委員的參與所以這個有些機關可能案子比較複雜另外也是專家學者的時間"},{"start":722.412,"end":738.923,"text":"因為不好booking所以這個調查的程序上面來講的話有時候處理上會稍微晚一點也會有這種情形但是不管結果怎麼樣我們那個後平台的部分我們都一定要他回報處理結果以上"},{"start":740.444,"end":760.661,"text":"最後幾十秒我講一下因為有很多公務員跟我們說這個申訴平台他們就覺得是很黑箱他們也不是那麼信任那是不是可以麻煩你們事後再追蹤的時候幫我們多加一項就是去問一下這個檢舉人"},{"start":762.847,"end":785.478,"text":"有沒有就是有人洩密或公開了他的資訊這件事情好不好我覺得這最重要喔公務員敢不敢檢舉很多人都是怕自己的身份被公開那你們可以做事後的跟他詢問有沒有這個事情然後要做個整理你才能夠再精進自己的這套系統吧我如果今天說我被霸凌了"},{"start":786.809,"end":806.091,"text":"但是呢我又覺得說你們把這個事情公開出去會不會有這個狀況我覺得如果是這樣的話我反而當事人他會有疑慮因為他如果說他疑是怎樣怎樣應該是他服務的機關那個調查的機關他直接又跟他回應如果"},{"start":807.418,"end":835.537,"text":"他一定要問這個議題的話 反而會讓他覺得會再度受傷反而有其他的疑慮事情已經發生 我只是說你們有說你們會做事後的追蹤那事後追蹤當然有包括到你有沒有處理好這個案子但是我只是想要知道一個點就是會不會有公務員他們擔心因為他們申訴之後他的事情被曝光出去那你們不用做最後了解一下這個狀況嗎"},{"start":837.859,"end":857.081,"text":"去做將來政策的微調跟委員報告就是說今天在這個平台的申訴來講即使是就是說他具名如果我們又再去問當事人說你們機關有沒有疑似洩密或是什麼其實對當事人來講可能他也會擔心說你們怎麼知道我這個案子"},{"start":857.852,"end":875.421,"text":"你不是居民跟他們 他們不是居民跟你檢舉嗎對 但是如果說要逐一去了解每一個人他有沒有疑似被洩密這個對當事人來講的話 他也會擔心說這個是不是他已經被洩密 我們才去這樣子問他"},{"start":877.162,"end":899.997,"text":"所以這個部分剛剛人士想提到就是說 不然這樣好了啦 我想時間的關係啦我也不想再聽你們 因為我覺得你講的這個邏輯我聽不懂我邏輯我真的聽不懂 他今天具名跟你們檢舉你們事後問他們 每一案 通案每一案都問 而不是個案問通案都問說 你這個處理之後 你有沒有發現這個申訴小組把你資料流出去"},{"start":900.757,"end":928.486,"text":"你就是問這樣子而已你說會造成他心裡什麼樣 這邏輯我不懂啦我們來設計一下 就是整個結案以後會讓當事人去填他對這個案子的滿意度或者因為這個是公務員最在乎的有沒有被申訴單位把他的資料流出去你認為說問他這個對他什麼傷害 我聽不懂你們的邏輯啦 真的好 那我請你兩個月內一樣把這個申訴平台處理方式還有這個我剛剛提到的這個"},{"start":929.426,"end":957.324,"text":"最後能不能夠去問這個申訴者他們對於有沒有被保密這個東西的想法你們看你們要怎麼做再麻煩你們告訴我我跟你說我不是找你們麻煩我只是說聽聽看他們的想法去做政策的微調我很肯定你們的政策但是竟然有公務員跟我們講他們很怕申訴完之後被申訴機那個處理機關流出去那你就了解一下嘛如果每樣問一問之後大家都很滿意那不是更棒嗎我的邏輯只是這樣"},{"start":957.904,"end":964.327,"text":"好 謝謝吳宗憲委員那確實啦這個霸凌的申訴這個部分追蹤的部分那個平台再跟吳委員來做一個說明那我們早上我看這個現在剩下上午的時間剩下20幾秒而已"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":886,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時43分）謝謝，麻煩人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早！"],["吳委員宗憲：人事長早安！今天要跟你請教一下，就是有關職場霸凌的部分。去年11月3日在我們臺灣鬧得滿大的就是吳姓公務員輕生的事情，之後我們國內都開始重視公務員職場霸凌的一些問題。我們再看一下，這幾年其實在公務員體系發生一個狀況，我自己擔任公務員有24年的時間，24年前那個時候的公務員其實是金飯碗，大家都很喜歡當公務員，但是我們看這幾年發生一個狀況，這幾年公務員的薪水也不好，退休金又被刪，導致報考率逐年一直下降，比之前少非常多；除了經濟部分的問題之外，其他部分，我們是不是有提供給公務員一個有保障的法規，這也是很重要的，而且也是能夠吸引優秀人才來當公務員的一個重要事情。前一段時間我們一直在討論公務員不管是過勞的問題或是霸凌的問題，目前我們來看，公務員還是沒有辦法納入職安法的保護，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們現在就公務人員保障法和安衛辦法。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，所以2月那時候保訓會有開一個防治公務人員職場霸凌法制研修會議嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想政府目前的方向還是希望把公部門的霸凌放在公務人員保障法的架構下面去處理，就是跟職安的部分要脫鉤嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，跟職安脫鉤。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想目前是這樣，當然政府的這個想法，我們是有點失望，但是我想說：人事行政總處你們總是整個政府的HR，所有機關的人事部門是由你們在掌管，從人資管理的專業角度出發，我們還是蠻希望你們能夠發揮你們的角色，能夠適當地處理這個霸凌的問題。從去年吳姓公務員的這個事情之後，其實不管是行政院、數發部等等的公家機關，都被踢爆有很多霸凌的案子，衛福部調查後，也有8個案子，這些案子在調查之後，陸陸續續都確認有霸凌的問題，所以霸凌現在在我們的公務員體系裡面並不是一個假議題，它是一個真實存在的。我想請問人事長一個最簡單的問題，就是霸凌的定義到底是什麼？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：霸凌是一個持續性的上對下或者下對上（也有可能下對上）或者同等的同仁之間長期的所謂歧視的作為，歧視包含肢體還有口語的，所以有時候我們同仁在跟我講，就是言語按摩的概念，有的人講話就是比較沒有修飾，就講得比較土一點。"],["吳委員宗憲：這樣霸凌的定義會不會過於空泛？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：事實上，因為定義的問題，所以我們最近很高密度地跟保訓會在談安衛辦法裡面的這一些定義，因為定義要定清楚，我們在執行才有一個依據。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我大概懂人事長的意思，當然我們自己念法律的，我們理解，有時候法律的解釋除了法條之外，再來就是要有實際的案例來補充，這個我可以理解，所以是不是除了法條或者一些公開的政府論述之外，將來還需要有更多的案例來補充所謂霸凌的解釋，是不是？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們事實上目前用最多的大概是法院判決的一些案例，我們把它拿來引用，這個會比較客觀而且明確。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，將來是不是也要麻煩你們能夠濃縮、能夠摘出一些比較重要的案例來解釋給國人聽，因為有一些東西光文字的解釋，也許人民不是那麼容易懂。就好像之前國會改革的時候，我們講反質詢，然後人家問我反質詢，我們說明完定義之後，會說接下來將來還是需要有案例來補充這個部分的說明。我覺得類似，就是法律人都這樣，法條再加判決判例來補充，讓它整個完整。所以我還是希望很多東西，包括霸凌的定義是什麼，除了法條之外，我們還要把將來法院上面審理的或者是一些實際上面行政機關所受理的案例明確化來告訴各個公務員什麼叫做霸凌，不然有一些人被霸凌了卻不自知，他看了也許就懂，他會去申訴，或是有一些人會知道自己的行為不對，不可以這樣對別人，這還要麻煩你們，我們一起努力。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，這個原則上就如同我剛才講的，我們會reference到法院的一些判例，還有公務機關最近這一、兩年實際的一些案例，有一個很重要的，剛才委員提的，我們會把它精簡，讓一般同仁一看就看得懂。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。我想說去年12月傳出人總有一個霸凌女王，他有幾個例子，包括下屬說要請喪假，他就說怎麼不讓爸爸趕快燒一燒就好，或是有人流產，他就說早上墮胎處理一下，下午就可以來上班，或是叫部屬幫他準備三餐、在辦公室煮菜，或是叫部屬開車載他去做自己的事情，或是把家裡的垃圾拿去辦公室叫部屬處理。我覺得類似這種案例出來之後，其實我們就可以告訴其他的公務員有這些例子，這些一個一個案例的累積，我覺得將來我們對於霸凌這個定義能夠更精確，因為法律其實是要求要明確化，我想人事長一定非常知道這個道理，那將來就只能再多給我們一些這樣的案例，讓我們能夠更了解霸凌的定義到底是什麼。這個主管後來是被記兩大過免職，我想這是一個好事，我覺得要不是之前有那位吳姓公務員的不幸事件，其實也不會讓大家這麼重視公家機關有這個問題，我剛剛說我自己當了24年的公務員，我博士班念的是公共衛生，我們也都知道職場的健康狀況本來就是社會致病因子的其中一種，所以職場心理衛生的狀況本來就會影響到個人的生理健康以及家庭的問題，所以這塊處理好其實對家庭以及對健保也是一個好事，因為讓社會致病因子減少的話，人民其實可以更健康。","我再請教一下，目前各個機關有一些有霸凌申訴的評議會，我看了一下六都，有五都的評議會都有外部委員的參與，但是高雄沒有，但是六都以外的縣市像彰化、新竹、金門也都沒有，只有內部委員。你們人事行政總處相關的評議會都有請外部委員，但是有一些地方的機關、地方縣市政府並沒有，我想請教一下人事長，就這個部分你們有沒有思考去訂一個標準，要求國內各公家機關的相關評議會都能夠強制要有一定比例的外部委員在裡面？否則我們接到某一個縣市有一個申訴案件，他去做霸凌的申訴，結果發現調查小組、申訴小組裡面的成員都是自己機關內的長官。你也知道，在同一個機關內上班，有時候他會不知道怎麼講，甚至他講了以後，這個霸凌者搞不好就是這個申訴委員會裡面的長官或者是長官的好朋友，那這個要他怎麼處理？我想請教一下你們的想法。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，包含剛才委員關心的霸凌的定義，還有一些相關細節目前還沒有制定，我們現在是通函給各個機關，由各個地方政府或者政府機關自己去做一個判斷。可是當安衛辦法修正以後，像我們目前大概會要求三分之一都是外部委員的這個部分，到時候我們會直接寫進來，讓大家有一個依循，而且相關疑似霸凌者的這些人不予參與整個調查的程序，剛才委員所關心的這個議題我們會在安衛辦法裡面落入相關規定。"],["吳委員宗憲：那你們可以兩個月內給我一個簡單的報告嗎？不用很複雜啦，給我簡單的報告，告訴我你們怎麼處理這件事情。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：可以，沒問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：另外還有一個東西，因為人事行政總處有一個霸凌申訴平臺在去年12月上線，裡面有提到用保密的方式來處理，但是因為這個平臺要公務員具名檢舉，但是你們說你們會保密。我想請教人總在收到這個檢舉之後是用什麼方式來進行處理或者是事後的追蹤？怎麼樣可以讓被檢舉的那個機關不會知道是誰來檢舉的，你們的作法是怎麼樣？"],["陳處長月春：這個部分原則上我們都會請各機關指定收件的窗口，所以在平臺收到案件之後，我們就會傳遞給機關指定的窗口，由這個窗口他們去做後續的處理，在相關的處理作業上面，我們也有要求機關要依循保密的原則去做後續的釐清跟調查，處理完成之後的結果，機關也要回到這個平臺通報它處理的結果是成立還是不成立，對於成立的案子，它是做懲處還是調整職務，還是做其他的處理，我們也會請它要回報到這個平臺來。"],["吳委員宗憲：事後的列管呢？"],["陳處長月春：事後的列管我們就會在這個平臺去看，如果它超過期限還沒有完成的話，我們也會試著去了解是什麼原因。因為實務處理上面來講，剛剛人事長也有提到都要有外部委員的參與，所以有些機關可能案子比較複雜，另外也因為專家學者的時間不好booking，所以這個調查的程序有時候處理上會稍微晚一點，也會有這種情形，但是不管結果怎麼樣，那個平臺的部分我們都一定要它回報處理結果，以上。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，最後幾十秒我講一下，因為有很多公務員跟我們說，他們覺得這個申訴平臺很黑箱，他們也不是那麼信任，是不是可以麻煩你們事後在追蹤的時候幫我們多加一項，去問一下這個檢舉人是否有人洩密或公開了他的資訊這件事情，好不好？我覺得這是最重要的，公務員敢不敢檢舉，很多人都是怕自己的身分被公開，你們可以事後詢問他有沒有這個事情，然後做個整理，你才能夠再精進自己的這一套系統吧？我如果今天說我被霸凌了，但是我又覺得你們把這個事情公開出去，會不會有這個狀況？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得如果是這樣的話，反而當事人他會有疑慮，因為如果他疑似怎樣、怎樣，應該是他服務的機關、那個調查的機關直接跟他回應，如果一定要問這個議題的話，反而會讓他覺得再度受傷，反而有其他的疑慮。"],["吳委員宗憲：再度受傷？我跟你們講，事情已經發生，因為你們有說你們會做事後的追蹤嘛！事後追蹤當然包括有沒有處理好這個案子，但是我只是想要知道一個點，就是會不會有公務員他們擔心，因為他們申訴之後他的事情被曝光出去，你們最後不用了解一下這個狀況嗎？去做將來政策的微調。"],["陳處長月春：跟委員報告，今天在這個平臺的申訴，即使是他具名，如果我們又再去問當事人你們機關有沒有疑似洩密或什麼，其實對當事人來講，可能他也會擔心我們怎麼知道他這個案子。"],["吳委員宗憲：他們不是具名跟你檢舉嗎？我不懂你的邏輯耶！"],["陳處長月春：對，但是如果要逐一去了解每一個人他有沒有疑似被洩密，這個對當事人來講，他也會擔心是不是他已經被洩密，我們才去這樣子問他，所以這個部分剛剛人事長提到，還是會回到機關裡面……"],["吳委員宗憲：我想時間的關係，我也不想再聽你們說明，因為我覺得你講的這個邏輯我聽不懂，邏輯我真的聽不懂，他今天具名跟你們檢舉，你們事後問他們，每一案通案，每一案都問，而不是個案問，通案都問說這個處理之後你有沒有發現這個申訴小組把你資料流出去？你就是問這樣子而已，你說會造成他心裡怎麼樣，這個邏輯我不懂啦！我完全不懂啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：報告委員，我們來設計一下，整個結案以後會讓當事人去填對於這個案子的滿意度或者……"],["吳委員宗憲：因為這個是公務員最在乎的，申訴單位有沒有把他的資料流出去，你認為問他這個對他會造成什麼傷害，我聽不懂你們的邏輯啦！真的。我請你一樣在兩個月內把這個申訴平臺處理方式，還有我剛剛提到的，最後能不能夠去問申訴者他們對於資料有沒有被保密這個東西的想法，你們看你們要怎麼做，再麻煩你們告訴我。我跟你說，我不是找你們麻煩，我只是說聽聽看他們的想法去做政策的微調，我很肯定你們的政策，但是既然有公務員跟我們講，他們很怕申訴完之後資料被處理機關流出去，那你就了解一下嘛！如果每一案問一問之後大家都很滿意，那不是更棒嗎？我的邏輯只是這樣，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳宗憲委員。確實啦！有關霸凌申訴追蹤的平臺再跟吳委員來做一個說明。","現在上午的時間剩下二十幾秒而已，我先處理一下會議時間，我們上午會議的時間就繼續進行到所有登記發言的委員詢答結束為止。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在，鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","接下來請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林倩綺","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈發惠","羅智強","王義川","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","吳宗憲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00001"}}}