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審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 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00:00:01,650\n好謝謝昭偉有請次長有請次長貝子荀謝謝委員好好次長午安喔那個在我問學校公參法前喔我先針對那個早上有委員提到的科博館的事情喔那我知道張亮萬堅委員次長出自台中那科博館也都說您一直大力支持喔\n\n2\n00:00:29,907 --> 00:00:31,348\n這個陳情案我也有收到賴總統上任前一直非常支持科博館2024年底科博館也向教育部提出科博館升級計畫\n\n3\n00:00:50,062 --> 00:01:05,815\n我想柯博館的重要性張廖次長非常的了解因為他是我們全國標本數最大的那每年參觀人數也三百萬人次非常的重要那這個計畫不會因為人事的變動而受到影響吧這次次長可以承諾嗎\n\n4\n00:01:06,536 --> 00:01:35,561\n我跟那個離子的教官也非常熟我很肯定他很勇於認識剛才因為沒有時間回答那至於這個人事案件坦白講這也不是我的權責能夠回答就是說有發生這樣的狀況我們當然本於事權或者是這個計劃這個戒掉的期限當然是從這樣角度關心我們可以理解不過我想對於這些計劃我覺得科博館確實需要投入一些資源來改善\n\n5\n00:01:36,281 --> 00:01:58,579\n那我想他至少就要一步承諾這些升級的計畫不會受影響第二個我也希望次長在這邊可以承諾說能夠多化強化跟裡面的專業研究人員的溝通減少衝擊這應該可以做到吧對我想我會跟部長建議就是說應該去了解一下到館裡面去了解整個發展是不是有\n\n6\n00:01:59,119 --> 00:02:14,386\n外面就是外傳的這樣的狀況來跟地方好好溝通那如果部長真的工忙我也可以過去沒關係好那我想如果張廖次長出動的話那大家應該是更有信心了因為您本來就了解這個台中的科博館的重要性\n\n7\n00:02:15,006 --> 00:02:32,195\n那再回到今天的這個主題那因為我想那個剛剛其實次長都有回應過那我也想再重申我們這一屆有很多我們教文委員跟非教文委我們組的下一代而佔連線就把營養午餐專法列為重要的法案\n\n8\n00:02:33,055 --> 00:02:49,401\n那也不只是這一屆那張廖次長跟我們在一起的時候上一屆我們都非常的關心我個人也跟民團多次召開記者會呼籲教育部盡速制定學校公參法那也跟我們教育部長上一屆潘部長質詢過\n\n9\n00:02:51,242 --> 00:03:16,985\n當時就說有草案基礎會加速的推那教育部也回應我就是認同而且會訂出前瞻而且創新的學校午餐專法那這部分我想其實我們都知道為什麼要訂這個部分那我也知道剛剛張廖次長有講到其實你們現在已經做了非常多我們專法中在講的事情那包含就是已經有70幾億\n\n10\n00:03:18,226 --> 00:03:28,973\n每年都提升包含契約各方面但是有一點就是營養師的部分還是沒有辦法做到因為營養師現狀是每班30人一個營養師要負擔1200人我們知道其實就日本來講\n\n11\n00:03:35,877 --> 00:03:56,124\n就只要550個人就有那這是日本的狀態所以我們跟日本比起來還是差距很大那日本是在1954年韓國在1981年就有相關的專法了那當然就是我自己的版本還特別重視多元飲食文化跟飲食教育\n\n12\n00:03:56,804 --> 00:04:01,570\n還有這個剩食的部分因為我覺得就是國中小生他們其實怎麼樣有實時的教育剩食減量那這也是我原本的那個相關的法中有提到的\n\n13\n00:04:11,561 --> 00:04:39,902\n也因為這些原因我覺得很重要要有這個專法可是我剛聽了半天我也知道行政院的卡關是卡關在哪裡因為我想本來潘部長或者張料次長你一定會非常支持把它法治化雖然現在有非常多的部分就是教育部已經做到了那這個部分您可不可以再講一下就是因為剛剛有委員講說才化法的部分可以協商那到底地方政府\n\n14\n00:04:40,262 --> 00:05:03,480\n那您剛剛有講到說會議紀錄會給委員嘛那是哪些地方政府願意來分擔這個錢沒有這個部分還沒有談因為台灣法對台灣法過之後因為有行政院的那個那個程序還沒有通就是救濟程序復義都還沒過那我們當然這個部分去跟地方談也不知道怎麼談啊那因為地方他也不確定他拿多少錢\n\n15\n00:05:04,521 --> 00:05:24,478\n我提過就是說每個地方對於目前這個新版裁判法的一個版本的貨配數是不是滿意那我們要如何做一刀切說怎麼樣的縣市幾層幾層幾層這樣他們同不同意這其實是一個溝通的難度啦那我們願意溝通啦那就是說如果已經確定是這樣子的新版\n\n16\n00:05:25,599 --> 00:05:47,020\n財務法是明年上路的話那今年我們是不會去動那今年修法如果增加了預算那要增加的我們講過至少會二十六億多包括要符合營養師你提到的那個五百五十人的標準的話我們就朝這個目標來努力的話要增加的兩億七千萬那這部分我們可以先談就是說跟地方談是不是\n\n17\n00:05:48,683 --> 00:06:10,622\n他們願意來多付一點以我個人看因為其實教育本來就是地方事務那我們教育部過去做了非常多簡單的講就是裁判法他把錢拿回去就是權利義務要對等我們不是說把國民教育就甩鍋給地方而是說你拿了錢回去那折就要扛回去這樣子會比較好那如果地方就是拒絕呢他又要錢又不想負擔責任那我們怎麼辦\n\n18\n00:06:13,445 --> 00:06:35,608\n對這個就是說這個就是會變成不穩定的一個教育預算跟教育政策其實這是我們不樂見的對就是財發法的修法這樣匆忙過之後造成的教育預算國教補助這些的不穩定性我常常覺得說其實穩定的教育預算是國家的福氣是孩子的福氣\n\n19\n00:06:35,828 --> 00:06:56,484\n那我也想借這個機會請教次長喔因為這個才化法要撥到地方的三千多億裡面有哪些教育部受到影響的會大概多少億因為原本各部會這一定是各部會均攤嘛那教育部會攤多少會減少多少會不會影響到地方的原本的什麼老舊房舍補助啊等等這些\n\n20\n00:06:57,125 --> 00:07:16,753\n我們私下估算嘛就是說如果有些預算像國防預算等等那一定不能剪的話那我們也不是只有28%那其實教育算也有很多譬如說少子化補助我們分攤了688億那這部分到底是要跟地方合作也是一樣請他們負擔一點還是我們要跟著剪\n\n21\n00:07:17,273 --> 00:07:34,402\n那跟著減的話小子化就指向公托跟非營利的補助第一胎五千、六千、七千還有公托的補助就是他們去念幼兒園就一千、兩千、三千負擔減低那這一部分教育部也分成六百八十八億那這部分也不能減那所以有些\n\n22\n00:07:35,382 --> 00:07:52,525\n你要撿的業務費用就是說剛才大家討論很多說就會去撿到一些各單位的業務費用那事實上目前我們正在各單位也在想籌編明年預算的時候其實也在想說我們有些可能必須要三個三成或多少如果\n\n23\n00:07:53,346 --> 00:08:18,094\n方案一三層的話那我們要掃哪些兼哪些那地方要怎麼去談所以這是一個很困難的工作那我現在也憂心的是就是地方拿了這個財化法搶到這個錢又不負擔義務然後萬一你們跟地方協商的話地方政府又要推給你說那這個你學校午餐條例還是要中央出錢那這就非常的不合理\n\n24\n00:08:19,094 --> 00:08:32,029\n剛剛我們很多藍營待會葉元智委員我們應該問他嘛新北市學校午餐條例新北市要負擔百分之多少次長你覺得地方政府應該要負擔多少才合理主席說我們是不能去問我想是這樣說\n\n25\n00:08:33,871 --> 00:08:50,634\n我就想這個國教補助補助孩子這絕對是教育部甜蜜的負擔我們都願意多出但問題是說如果沒有能力出的時候地方中央一起來談一起來出能夠談出一個名簿我們好好修修得更好負擔更多我覺得那就是甜蜜的負擔我們都願意承擔\n\n26\n00:08:51,175 --> 00:09:07,678\n我相信就是說因為我們這邊委員都在中央大家會希望中央多買單一點那但是就剛講的財化法中央錢就不夠了如果少子化的錢都要地方的話我也會擔心萬一地方不做因為沒有任何的法律的基礎就是地方要負擔嘛\n\n27\n00:09:08,379 --> 00:09:32,147\n那這個事情應該大家一起來解決那當然我個人還是希望說行政院能夠務實算出之後有一個可執行的版本那是不是我們就是不分黨派包含議員之委員都一起來遊說地方願意承諾分擔多少我想這樣才會有個合理的溝通專法的精神我們都很支持就專法的精神都是要孩子吃的好吃的安全吃的營養\n\n28\n00:09:33,107 --> 00:09:47,564\n那吃的這個能夠均衡所以我覺得這個我們都支持只是說像營養師增加我們現在版本設算的經費也都出來如果我們如果我們不去面對的話我們就不會去設算這個經費就是說我們也希望能夠達到這個目標\n\n29\n00:09:49,246 --> 00:10:11,012\n那我希望這個溝通速度越快越好那也跟剛剛委員一樣那個溝通的紀錄是不是也都可以給本委員會因為財務法確定之後行政會有指示說我們大概會減少多少的時候如果開過會我們比較確定的也許他覺得這份不能減那跟地方政府的溝通紀錄也給本席一份好嗎好謝謝謝謝次長一起加油謝謝范雲委員質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9\t1650\t好 謝謝昭偉 有請次長有請次長 貝子荀謝謝委員好好 次長午安喔那個在我問學校公參法前喔我先針對那個早上有委員提到的科博館的事情喔那我知道張亮萬堅委員 次長出自台中那科博館也都說您一直大力支持喔\n29907\t31348\t這個陳情案我也有收到賴總統上任前一直非常支持科博館2024年底科博館也向教育部提出科博館升級計畫\n50062\t65815\t我想柯博館的重要性張廖次長非常的了解因為他是我們全國標本數最大的那每年參觀人數也三百萬人次非常的重要那這個計畫不會因為人事的變動而受到影響吧這次次長可以承諾嗎\n66536\t95561\t我跟那個離子的教官也非常熟我很肯定他很勇於認識剛才因為沒有時間回答那至於這個人事案件坦白講這也不是我的權責能夠回答就是說有發生這樣的狀況我們當然本於事權或者是這個計劃這個戒掉的期限當然是從這樣角度關心我們可以理解不過我想對於這些計劃我覺得科博館確實需要投入一些資源來改善\n96281\t118579\t那我想他至少就要一步承諾這些升級的計畫不會受影響第二個我也希望次長在這邊可以承諾說能夠多化強化跟裡面的專業研究人員的溝通減少衝擊這應該可以做到吧對我想我會跟部長建議就是說應該去了解一下到館裡面去了解整個發展是不是有\n119119\t134386\t外面就是外傳的這樣的狀況來跟地方好好溝通那如果部長真的工忙我也可以過去沒關係好 那我想如果張廖次長出動的話那大家應該是更有信心了因為您本來就了解這個台中的科博館的重要性\n135006\t152195\t那再回到今天的這個主題那因為我想那個剛剛其實次長都有回應過那我也想再重申我們這一屆有很多我們教文委員跟非教文委我們組的下一代而佔連線就把營養午餐專法列為重要的法案\n153055\t169401\t那也不只是這一屆那張廖次長跟我們在一起的時候上一屆我們都非常的關心我個人也跟民團多次召開記者會呼籲教育部盡速制定學校公參法那也跟我們教育部長上一屆潘部長質詢過\n171242\t196985\t當時就說有草案基礎會加速的推那教育部也回應我就是認同而且會訂出前瞻而且創新的學校午餐專法那這部分我想其實我們都知道為什麼要訂這個部分那我也知道剛剛張廖次長有講到其實你們現在已經做了非常多我們專法中在講的事情那包含就是已經有70幾億\n198226\t208973\t每年都提升包含契約各方面但是有一點就是營養師的部分還是沒有辦法做到因為營養師現狀是每班30人一個營養師要負擔1200人我們知道其實就日本來講\n215877\t236124\t就只要550個人就有那這是日本的狀態所以我們跟日本比起來還是差距很大那日本是在1954年韓國在1981年就有相關的專法了那當然就是我自己的版本還特別重視多元飲食文化跟飲食教育\n236804\t241570\t還有這個剩食的部分因為我覺得就是國中小生他們其實怎麼樣有實時的教育剩食減量那這也是我原本的那個相關的法中有提到的\n251561\t279902\t也因為這些原因我覺得很重要要有這個專法可是我剛聽了半天我也知道行政院的卡關是卡關在哪裡因為我想本來潘部長或者張料次長你一定會非常支持把它法治化雖然現在有非常多的部分就是教育部已經做到了那這個部分您可不可以再講一下就是因為剛剛有委員講說才化法的部分可以協商那到底地方政府\n280262\t303480\t那您剛剛有講到說會議紀錄會給委員嘛那是哪些地方政府願意來分擔這個錢沒有這個部分還沒有談因為台灣法對台灣法過之後因為有行政院的那個那個程序還沒有通就是救濟程序復義都還沒過那我們當然這個部分去跟地方談也不知道怎麼談啊那因為地方他也不確定他拿多少錢\n304521\t324478\t我提過就是說每個地方對於目前這個新版裁判法的一個版本的貨配數是不是滿意那我們要如何做一刀切說怎麼樣的縣市幾層幾層幾層這樣他們同不同意這其實是一個溝通的難度啦那我們願意溝通啦那就是說如果已經確定是這樣子的新版\n325599\t347020\t財務法是明年上路的話那今年我們是不會去動那今年修法如果增加了預算那要增加的我們講過至少會二十六億多包括要符合營養師你提到的那個五百五十人的標準的話我們就朝這個目標來努力的話要增加的兩億七千萬那這部分我們可以先談就是說跟地方談是不是\n348683\t370622\t他們願意來多付一點以我個人看 因為其實教育本來就是地方事務那我們教育部過去做了非常多簡單的講就是裁判法他把錢拿回去就是權利義務要對等我們不是說把國民教育就甩鍋給地方而是說你拿了錢回去 那折就要扛回去這樣子會比較好那如果地方就是拒絕呢他又要錢又不想負擔責任那我們怎麼辦\n373445\t395608\t對 這個就是說這個就是會變成不穩定的一個教育預算跟教育政策其實這是我們不樂見的對 就是財發法的修法這樣匆忙過之後造成的教育預算 國教補助這些的不穩定性我常常覺得說其實穩定的教育預算是國家的福氣是孩子的福氣\n395828\t416484\t那我也想借這個機會請教次長喔因為這個才化法要撥到地方的三千多億裡面有哪些教育部受到影響的會大概多少億因為原本各部會 這一定是各部會均攤嘛那教育部會攤多少 會減少多少會不會影響到地方的原本的什麼老舊房舍補助啊等等這些\n417125\t436753\t我們私下估算嘛就是說如果有些預算像國防預算等等那一定不能剪的話那我們也不是只有28%那其實教育算也有很多譬如說少子化補助我們分攤了688億那這部分到底是要跟地方合作也是一樣請他們負擔一點還是我們要跟著剪\n437273\t454402\t那跟著減的話 小子化就指向公托跟非營利的補助第一胎五千、六千、七千還有公托的補助就是他們去念幼兒園就一千、兩千、三千負擔減低那這一部分教育部也分成六百八十八億那這部分也不能減那所以有些\n455382\t472525\t你要撿的業務費用就是說剛才大家討論很多說就會去撿到一些各單位的業務費用那事實上目前我們正在各單位也在想籌編明年預算的時候其實也在想說我們有些可能必須要三個三成或多少如果\n473346\t498094\t方案一三層的話那我們要掃哪些 兼哪些那地方要怎麼去談所以這是一個很困難的工作那我現在也憂心的是就是地方拿了這個財化法搶到這個錢又不負擔義務然後萬一你們跟地方協商的話地方政府又要推給你說那這個你學校午餐條例還是要中央出錢那這就非常的不合理\n499094\t512029\t剛剛我們很多藍營 待會葉元智委員我們應該問他嘛新北市學校午餐條例新北市要負擔百分之多少次長你覺得地方政府應該要負擔多少才合理主席說我們是不能去問我想是這樣說\n513871\t530634\t我就想這個國教補助 補助孩子這絕對是教育部甜蜜的負擔我們都願意多出但問題是說如果沒有能力出的時候地方中央一起來談一起來出能夠談出一個名簿我們好好修修得更好負擔更多我覺得那就是甜蜜的負擔我們都願意承擔\n531175\t547678\t我相信就是說因為我們這邊委員都在中央大家會希望中央多買單一點那但是就剛講的財化法中央錢就不夠了如果少子化的錢都要地方的話我也會擔心萬一地方不做因為沒有任何的法律的基礎就是地方要負擔嘛\n548379\t572147\t那這個事情應該大家一起來解決那當然我個人還是希望說行政院能夠務實算出之後有一個可執行的版本那是不是我們就是不分黨派包含議員之委員都一起來遊說地方願意承諾分擔多少我想這樣才會有個合理的溝通專法的精神我們都很支持就專法的精神都是要孩子吃的好吃的安全吃的營養\n573107\t587564\t那吃的這個能夠均衡所以我覺得這個我們都支持只是說像營養師增加我們現在版本設算的經費也都出來如果我們如果我們不去面對的話我們就不會去設算這個經費就是說我們也希望能夠達到這個目標\n589246\t611012\t那我希望這個溝通速度越快越好那也跟剛剛委員一樣那個溝通的紀錄是不是也都可以給本委員會因為財務法確定之後行政會有指示說我們大概會減少多少的時候如果開過會我們比較確定的也許他覺得這份不能減那跟地方政府的溝通紀錄也給本席一份好嗎好 謝謝謝謝次長 一起加油謝謝范雲委員質詢\n","txt":"好 謝謝昭偉 有請次長有請次長 貝子荀謝謝委員好好 次長午安喔那個在我問學校公參法前喔我先針對那個早上有委員提到的科博館的事情喔那我知道張亮萬堅委員 次長出自台中那科博館也都說您一直大力支持喔\n這個陳情案我也有收到賴總統上任前一直非常支持科博館2024年底科博館也向教育部提出科博館升級計畫\n我想柯博館的重要性張廖次長非常的了解因為他是我們全國標本數最大的那每年參觀人數也三百萬人次非常的重要那這個計畫不會因為人事的變動而受到影響吧這次次長可以承諾嗎\n我跟那個離子的教官也非常熟我很肯定他很勇於認識剛才因為沒有時間回答那至於這個人事案件坦白講這也不是我的權責能夠回答就是說有發生這樣的狀況我們當然本於事權或者是這個計劃這個戒掉的期限當然是從這樣角度關心我們可以理解不過我想對於這些計劃我覺得科博館確實需要投入一些資源來改善\n那我想他至少就要一步承諾這些升級的計畫不會受影響第二個我也希望次長在這邊可以承諾說能夠多化強化跟裡面的專業研究人員的溝通減少衝擊這應該可以做到吧對我想我會跟部長建議就是說應該去了解一下到館裡面去了解整個發展是不是有\n外面就是外傳的這樣的狀況來跟地方好好溝通那如果部長真的工忙我也可以過去沒關係好 那我想如果張廖次長出動的話那大家應該是更有信心了因為您本來就了解這個台中的科博館的重要性\n那再回到今天的這個主題那因為我想那個剛剛其實次長都有回應過那我也想再重申我們這一屆有很多我們教文委員跟非教文委我們組的下一代而佔連線就把營養午餐專法列為重要的法案\n那也不只是這一屆那張廖次長跟我們在一起的時候上一屆我們都非常的關心我個人也跟民團多次召開記者會呼籲教育部盡速制定學校公參法那也跟我們教育部長上一屆潘部長質詢過\n當時就說有草案基礎會加速的推那教育部也回應我就是認同而且會訂出前瞻而且創新的學校午餐專法那這部分我想其實我們都知道為什麼要訂這個部分那我也知道剛剛張廖次長有講到其實你們現在已經做了非常多我們專法中在講的事情那包含就是已經有70幾億\n每年都提升包含契約各方面但是有一點就是營養師的部分還是沒有辦法做到因為營養師現狀是每班30人一個營養師要負擔1200人我們知道其實就日本來講\n就只要550個人就有那這是日本的狀態所以我們跟日本比起來還是差距很大那日本是在1954年韓國在1981年就有相關的專法了那當然就是我自己的版本還特別重視多元飲食文化跟飲食教育\n還有這個剩食的部分因為我覺得就是國中小生他們其實怎麼樣有實時的教育剩食減量那這也是我原本的那個相關的法中有提到的\n也因為這些原因我覺得很重要要有這個專法可是我剛聽了半天我也知道行政院的卡關是卡關在哪裡因為我想本來潘部長或者張料次長你一定會非常支持把它法治化雖然現在有非常多的部分就是教育部已經做到了那這個部分您可不可以再講一下就是因為剛剛有委員講說才化法的部分可以協商那到底地方政府\n那您剛剛有講到說會議紀錄會給委員嘛那是哪些地方政府願意來分擔這個錢沒有這個部分還沒有談因為台灣法對台灣法過之後因為有行政院的那個那個程序還沒有通就是救濟程序復義都還沒過那我們當然這個部分去跟地方談也不知道怎麼談啊那因為地方他也不確定他拿多少錢\n我提過就是說每個地方對於目前這個新版裁判法的一個版本的貨配數是不是滿意那我們要如何做一刀切說怎麼樣的縣市幾層幾層幾層這樣他們同不同意這其實是一個溝通的難度啦那我們願意溝通啦那就是說如果已經確定是這樣子的新版\n財務法是明年上路的話那今年我們是不會去動那今年修法如果增加了預算那要增加的我們講過至少會二十六億多包括要符合營養師你提到的那個五百五十人的標準的話我們就朝這個目標來努力的話要增加的兩億七千萬那這部分我們可以先談就是說跟地方談是不是\n他們願意來多付一點以我個人看 因為其實教育本來就是地方事務那我們教育部過去做了非常多簡單的講就是裁判法他把錢拿回去就是權利義務要對等我們不是說把國民教育就甩鍋給地方而是說你拿了錢回去 那折就要扛回去這樣子會比較好那如果地方就是拒絕呢他又要錢又不想負擔責任那我們怎麼辦\n對 這個就是說這個就是會變成不穩定的一個教育預算跟教育政策其實這是我們不樂見的對 就是財發法的修法這樣匆忙過之後造成的教育預算 國教補助這些的不穩定性我常常覺得說其實穩定的教育預算是國家的福氣是孩子的福氣\n那我也想借這個機會請教次長喔因為這個才化法要撥到地方的三千多億裡面有哪些教育部受到影響的會大概多少億因為原本各部會 這一定是各部會均攤嘛那教育部會攤多少 會減少多少會不會影響到地方的原本的什麼老舊房舍補助啊等等這些\n我們私下估算嘛就是說如果有些預算像國防預算等等那一定不能剪的話那我們也不是只有28%那其實教育算也有很多譬如說少子化補助我們分攤了688億那這部分到底是要跟地方合作也是一樣請他們負擔一點還是我們要跟著剪\n那跟著減的話 小子化就指向公托跟非營利的補助第一胎五千、六千、七千還有公托的補助就是他們去念幼兒園就一千、兩千、三千負擔減低那這一部分教育部也分成六百八十八億那這部分也不能減那所以有些\n你要撿的業務費用就是說剛才大家討論很多說就會去撿到一些各單位的業務費用那事實上目前我們正在各單位也在想籌編明年預算的時候其實也在想說我們有些可能必須要三個三成或多少如果\n方案一三層的話那我們要掃哪些 兼哪些那地方要怎麼去談所以這是一個很困難的工作那我現在也憂心的是就是地方拿了這個財化法搶到這個錢又不負擔義務然後萬一你們跟地方協商的話地方政府又要推給你說那這個你學校午餐條例還是要中央出錢那這就非常的不合理\n剛剛我們很多藍營 待會葉元智委員我們應該問他嘛新北市學校午餐條例新北市要負擔百分之多少次長你覺得地方政府應該要負擔多少才合理主席說我們是不能去問我想是這樣說\n我就想這個國教補助 補助孩子這絕對是教育部甜蜜的負擔我們都願意多出但問題是說如果沒有能力出的時候地方中央一起來談一起來出能夠談出一個名簿我們好好修修得更好負擔更多我覺得那就是甜蜜的負擔我們都願意承擔\n我相信就是說因為我們這邊委員都在中央大家會希望中央多買單一點那但是就剛講的財化法中央錢就不夠了如果少子化的錢都要地方的話我也會擔心萬一地方不做因為沒有任何的法律的基礎就是地方要負擔嘛\n那這個事情應該大家一起來解決那當然我個人還是希望說行政院能夠務實算出之後有一個可執行的版本那是不是我們就是不分黨派包含議員之委員都一起來遊說地方願意承諾分擔多少我想這樣才會有個合理的溝通專法的精神我們都很支持就專法的精神都是要孩子吃的好吃的安全吃的營養\n那吃的這個能夠均衡所以我覺得這個我們都支持只是說像營養師增加我們現在版本設算的經費也都出來如果我們如果我們不去面對的話我們就不會去設算這個經費就是說我們也希望能夠達到這個目標\n那我希望這個溝通速度越快越好那也跟剛剛委員一樣那個溝通的紀錄是不是也都可以給本委員會因為財務法確定之後行政會有指示說我們大概會減少多少的時候如果開過會我們比較確定的也許他覺得這份不能減那跟地方政府的溝通紀錄也給本席一份好嗎好 謝謝謝謝次長 一起加油謝謝范雲委員質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.009 --> 00:01.650\n好謝謝昭偉有請次長有請次長貝子荀謝謝委員好好次長午安喔那個在我問學校公參法前喔我先針對那個早上有委員提到的科博館的事情喔那我知道張亮萬堅委員次長出自台中那科博館也都說您一直大力支持喔\n\n00:29.907 --> 00:31.348\n這個陳情案我也有收到賴總統上任前一直非常支持科博館2024年底科博館也向教育部提出科博館升級計畫\n\n00:50.062 --> 01:05.815\n我想柯博館的重要性張廖次長非常的了解因為他是我們全國標本數最大的那每年參觀人數也三百萬人次非常的重要那這個計畫不會因為人事的變動而受到影響吧這次次長可以承諾嗎\n\n01:06.536 --> 01:35.561\n我跟那個離子的教官也非常熟我很肯定他很勇於認識剛才因為沒有時間回答那至於這個人事案件坦白講這也不是我的權責能夠回答就是說有發生這樣的狀況我們當然本於事權或者是這個計劃這個戒掉的期限當然是從這樣角度關心我們可以理解不過我想對於這些計劃我覺得科博館確實需要投入一些資源來改善\n\n01:36.281 --> 01:58.579\n那我想他至少就要一步承諾這些升級的計畫不會受影響第二個我也希望次長在這邊可以承諾說能夠多化強化跟裡面的專業研究人員的溝通減少衝擊這應該可以做到吧對我想我會跟部長建議就是說應該去了解一下到館裡面去了解整個發展是不是有\n\n01:59.119 --> 02:14.386\n外面就是外傳的這樣的狀況來跟地方好好溝通那如果部長真的工忙我也可以過去沒關係好那我想如果張廖次長出動的話那大家應該是更有信心了因為您本來就了解這個台中的科博館的重要性\n\n02:15.006 --> 02:32.195\n那再回到今天的這個主題那因為我想那個剛剛其實次長都有回應過那我也想再重申我們這一屆有很多我們教文委員跟非教文委我們組的下一代而佔連線就把營養午餐專法列為重要的法案\n\n02:33.055 --> 02:49.401\n那也不只是這一屆那張廖次長跟我們在一起的時候上一屆我們都非常的關心我個人也跟民團多次召開記者會呼籲教育部盡速制定學校公參法那也跟我們教育部長上一屆潘部長質詢過\n\n02:51.242 --> 03:16.985\n當時就說有草案基礎會加速的推那教育部也回應我就是認同而且會訂出前瞻而且創新的學校午餐專法那這部分我想其實我們都知道為什麼要訂這個部分那我也知道剛剛張廖次長有講到其實你們現在已經做了非常多我們專法中在講的事情那包含就是已經有70幾億\n\n03:18.226 --> 03:28.973\n每年都提升包含契約各方面但是有一點就是營養師的部分還是沒有辦法做到因為營養師現狀是每班30人一個營養師要負擔1200人我們知道其實就日本來講\n\n03:35.877 --> 03:56.124\n就只要550個人就有那這是日本的狀態所以我們跟日本比起來還是差距很大那日本是在1954年韓國在1981年就有相關的專法了那當然就是我自己的版本還特別重視多元飲食文化跟飲食教育\n\n03:56.804 --> 04:01.570\n還有這個剩食的部分因為我覺得就是國中小生他們其實怎麼樣有實時的教育剩食減量那這也是我原本的那個相關的法中有提到的\n\n04:11.561 --> 04:39.902\n也因為這些原因我覺得很重要要有這個專法可是我剛聽了半天我也知道行政院的卡關是卡關在哪裡因為我想本來潘部長或者張料次長你一定會非常支持把它法治化雖然現在有非常多的部分就是教育部已經做到了那這個部分您可不可以再講一下就是因為剛剛有委員講說才化法的部分可以協商那到底地方政府\n\n04:40.262 --> 05:03.480\n那您剛剛有講到說會議紀錄會給委員嘛那是哪些地方政府願意來分擔這個錢沒有這個部分還沒有談因為台灣法對台灣法過之後因為有行政院的那個那個程序還沒有通就是救濟程序復義都還沒過那我們當然這個部分去跟地方談也不知道怎麼談啊那因為地方他也不確定他拿多少錢\n\n05:04.521 --> 05:24.478\n我提過就是說每個地方對於目前這個新版裁判法的一個版本的貨配數是不是滿意那我們要如何做一刀切說怎麼樣的縣市幾層幾層幾層這樣他們同不同意這其實是一個溝通的難度啦那我們願意溝通啦那就是說如果已經確定是這樣子的新版\n\n05:25.599 --> 05:47.020\n財務法是明年上路的話那今年我們是不會去動那今年修法如果增加了預算那要增加的我們講過至少會二十六億多包括要符合營養師你提到的那個五百五十人的標準的話我們就朝這個目標來努力的話要增加的兩億七千萬那這部分我們可以先談就是說跟地方談是不是\n\n05:48.683 --> 06:10.622\n他們願意來多付一點以我個人看因為其實教育本來就是地方事務那我們教育部過去做了非常多簡單的講就是裁判法他把錢拿回去就是權利義務要對等我們不是說把國民教育就甩鍋給地方而是說你拿了錢回去那折就要扛回去這樣子會比較好那如果地方就是拒絕呢他又要錢又不想負擔責任那我們怎麼辦\n\n06:13.445 --> 06:35.608\n對這個就是說這個就是會變成不穩定的一個教育預算跟教育政策其實這是我們不樂見的對就是財發法的修法這樣匆忙過之後造成的教育預算國教補助這些的不穩定性我常常覺得說其實穩定的教育預算是國家的福氣是孩子的福氣\n\n06:35.828 --> 06:56.484\n那我也想借這個機會請教次長喔因為這個才化法要撥到地方的三千多億裡面有哪些教育部受到影響的會大概多少億因為原本各部會這一定是各部會均攤嘛那教育部會攤多少會減少多少會不會影響到地方的原本的什麼老舊房舍補助啊等等這些\n\n06:57.125 --> 07:16.753\n我們私下估算嘛就是說如果有些預算像國防預算等等那一定不能剪的話那我們也不是只有28%那其實教育算也有很多譬如說少子化補助我們分攤了688億那這部分到底是要跟地方合作也是一樣請他們負擔一點還是我們要跟著剪\n\n07:17.273 --> 07:34.402\n那跟著減的話小子化就指向公托跟非營利的補助第一胎五千、六千、七千還有公托的補助就是他們去念幼兒園就一千、兩千、三千負擔減低那這一部分教育部也分成六百八十八億那這部分也不能減那所以有些\n\n07:35.382 --> 07:52.525\n你要撿的業務費用就是說剛才大家討論很多說就會去撿到一些各單位的業務費用那事實上目前我們正在各單位也在想籌編明年預算的時候其實也在想說我們有些可能必須要三個三成或多少如果\n\n07:53.346 --> 08:18.094\n方案一三層的話那我們要掃哪些兼哪些那地方要怎麼去談所以這是一個很困難的工作那我現在也憂心的是就是地方拿了這個財化法搶到這個錢又不負擔義務然後萬一你們跟地方協商的話地方政府又要推給你說那這個你學校午餐條例還是要中央出錢那這就非常的不合理\n\n08:19.094 --> 08:32.029\n剛剛我們很多藍營待會葉元智委員我們應該問他嘛新北市學校午餐條例新北市要負擔百分之多少次長你覺得地方政府應該要負擔多少才合理主席說我們是不能去問我想是這樣說\n\n08:33.871 --> 08:50.634\n我就想這個國教補助補助孩子這絕對是教育部甜蜜的負擔我們都願意多出但問題是說如果沒有能力出的時候地方中央一起來談一起來出能夠談出一個名簿我們好好修修得更好負擔更多我覺得那就是甜蜜的負擔我們都願意承擔\n\n08:51.175 --> 09:07.678\n我相信就是說因為我們這邊委員都在中央大家會希望中央多買單一點那但是就剛講的財化法中央錢就不夠了如果少子化的錢都要地方的話我也會擔心萬一地方不做因為沒有任何的法律的基礎就是地方要負擔嘛\n\n09:08.379 --> 09:32.147\n那這個事情應該大家一起來解決那當然我個人還是希望說行政院能夠務實算出之後有一個可執行的版本那是不是我們就是不分黨派包含議員之委員都一起來遊說地方願意承諾分擔多少我想這樣才會有個合理的溝通專法的精神我們都很支持就專法的精神都是要孩子吃的好吃的安全吃的營養\n\n09:33.107 --> 09:47.564\n那吃的這個能夠均衡所以我覺得這個我們都支持只是說像營養師增加我們現在版本設算的經費也都出來如果我們如果我們不去面對的話我們就不會去設算這個經費就是說我們也希望能夠達到這個目標\n\n09:49.246 --> 10:11.012\n那我希望這個溝通速度越快越好那也跟剛剛委員一樣那個溝通的紀錄是不是也都可以給本委員會因為財務法確定之後行政會有指示說我們大概會減少多少的時候如果開過會我們比較確定的也許他覺得這份不能減那跟地方政府的溝通紀錄也給本席一份好嗎好謝謝謝謝次長一起加油謝謝范雲委員質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.009,"end":1.65,"text":"好 謝謝昭偉 有請次長有請次長 貝子荀謝謝委員好好 次長午安喔那個在我問學校公參法前喔我先針對那個早上有委員提到的科博館的事情喔那我知道張亮萬堅委員 次長出自台中那科博館也都說您一直大力支持喔"},{"start":29.907,"end":31.348,"text":"這個陳情案我也有收到賴總統上任前一直非常支持科博館2024年底科博館也向教育部提出科博館升級計畫"},{"start":50.062,"end":65.815,"text":"我想柯博館的重要性張廖次長非常的了解因為他是我們全國標本數最大的那每年參觀人數也三百萬人次非常的重要那這個計畫不會因為人事的變動而受到影響吧這次次長可以承諾嗎"},{"start":66.536,"end":95.561,"text":"我跟那個離子的教官也非常熟我很肯定他很勇於認識剛才因為沒有時間回答那至於這個人事案件坦白講這也不是我的權責能夠回答就是說有發生這樣的狀況我們當然本於事權或者是這個計劃這個戒掉的期限當然是從這樣角度關心我們可以理解不過我想對於這些計劃我覺得科博館確實需要投入一些資源來改善"},{"start":96.281,"end":118.579,"text":"那我想他至少就要一步承諾這些升級的計畫不會受影響第二個我也希望次長在這邊可以承諾說能夠多化強化跟裡面的專業研究人員的溝通減少衝擊這應該可以做到吧對我想我會跟部長建議就是說應該去了解一下到館裡面去了解整個發展是不是有"},{"start":119.119,"end":134.386,"text":"外面就是外傳的這樣的狀況來跟地方好好溝通那如果部長真的工忙我也可以過去沒關係好 那我想如果張廖次長出動的話那大家應該是更有信心了因為您本來就了解這個台中的科博館的重要性"},{"start":135.006,"end":152.195,"text":"那再回到今天的這個主題那因為我想那個剛剛其實次長都有回應過那我也想再重申我們這一屆有很多我們教文委員跟非教文委我們組的下一代而佔連線就把營養午餐專法列為重要的法案"},{"start":153.055,"end":169.401,"text":"那也不只是這一屆那張廖次長跟我們在一起的時候上一屆我們都非常的關心我個人也跟民團多次召開記者會呼籲教育部盡速制定學校公參法那也跟我們教育部長上一屆潘部長質詢過"},{"start":171.242,"end":196.985,"text":"當時就說有草案基礎會加速的推那教育部也回應我就是認同而且會訂出前瞻而且創新的學校午餐專法那這部分我想其實我們都知道為什麼要訂這個部分那我也知道剛剛張廖次長有講到其實你們現在已經做了非常多我們專法中在講的事情那包含就是已經有70幾億"},{"start":198.226,"end":208.973,"text":"每年都提升包含契約各方面但是有一點就是營養師的部分還是沒有辦法做到因為營養師現狀是每班30人一個營養師要負擔1200人我們知道其實就日本來講"},{"start":215.877,"end":236.124,"text":"就只要550個人就有那這是日本的狀態所以我們跟日本比起來還是差距很大那日本是在1954年韓國在1981年就有相關的專法了那當然就是我自己的版本還特別重視多元飲食文化跟飲食教育"},{"start":236.804,"end":241.57,"text":"還有這個剩食的部分因為我覺得就是國中小生他們其實怎麼樣有實時的教育剩食減量那這也是我原本的那個相關的法中有提到的"},{"start":251.561,"end":279.902,"text":"也因為這些原因我覺得很重要要有這個專法可是我剛聽了半天我也知道行政院的卡關是卡關在哪裡因為我想本來潘部長或者張料次長你一定會非常支持把它法治化雖然現在有非常多的部分就是教育部已經做到了那這個部分您可不可以再講一下就是因為剛剛有委員講說才化法的部分可以協商那到底地方政府"},{"start":280.262,"end":303.48,"text":"那您剛剛有講到說會議紀錄會給委員嘛那是哪些地方政府願意來分擔這個錢沒有這個部分還沒有談因為台灣法對台灣法過之後因為有行政院的那個那個程序還沒有通就是救濟程序復義都還沒過那我們當然這個部分去跟地方談也不知道怎麼談啊那因為地方他也不確定他拿多少錢"},{"start":304.521,"end":324.478,"text":"我提過就是說每個地方對於目前這個新版裁判法的一個版本的貨配數是不是滿意那我們要如何做一刀切說怎麼樣的縣市幾層幾層幾層這樣他們同不同意這其實是一個溝通的難度啦那我們願意溝通啦那就是說如果已經確定是這樣子的新版"},{"start":325.599,"end":347.02,"text":"財務法是明年上路的話那今年我們是不會去動那今年修法如果增加了預算那要增加的我們講過至少會二十六億多包括要符合營養師你提到的那個五百五十人的標準的話我們就朝這個目標來努力的話要增加的兩億七千萬那這部分我們可以先談就是說跟地方談是不是"},{"start":348.683,"end":370.622,"text":"他們願意來多付一點以我個人看 因為其實教育本來就是地方事務那我們教育部過去做了非常多簡單的講就是裁判法他把錢拿回去就是權利義務要對等我們不是說把國民教育就甩鍋給地方而是說你拿了錢回去 那折就要扛回去這樣子會比較好那如果地方就是拒絕呢他又要錢又不想負擔責任那我們怎麼辦"},{"start":373.445,"end":395.608,"text":"對 這個就是說這個就是會變成不穩定的一個教育預算跟教育政策其實這是我們不樂見的對 就是財發法的修法這樣匆忙過之後造成的教育預算 國教補助這些的不穩定性我常常覺得說其實穩定的教育預算是國家的福氣是孩子的福氣"},{"start":395.828,"end":416.484,"text":"那我也想借這個機會請教次長喔因為這個才化法要撥到地方的三千多億裡面有哪些教育部受到影響的會大概多少億因為原本各部會 這一定是各部會均攤嘛那教育部會攤多少 會減少多少會不會影響到地方的原本的什麼老舊房舍補助啊等等這些"},{"start":417.125,"end":436.753,"text":"我們私下估算嘛就是說如果有些預算像國防預算等等那一定不能剪的話那我們也不是只有28%那其實教育算也有很多譬如說少子化補助我們分攤了688億那這部分到底是要跟地方合作也是一樣請他們負擔一點還是我們要跟著剪"},{"start":437.273,"end":454.402,"text":"那跟著減的話 小子化就指向公托跟非營利的補助第一胎五千、六千、七千還有公托的補助就是他們去念幼兒園就一千、兩千、三千負擔減低那這一部分教育部也分成六百八十八億那這部分也不能減那所以有些"},{"start":455.382,"end":472.525,"text":"你要撿的業務費用就是說剛才大家討論很多說就會去撿到一些各單位的業務費用那事實上目前我們正在各單位也在想籌編明年預算的時候其實也在想說我們有些可能必須要三個三成或多少如果"},{"start":473.346,"end":498.094,"text":"方案一三層的話那我們要掃哪些 兼哪些那地方要怎麼去談所以這是一個很困難的工作那我現在也憂心的是就是地方拿了這個財化法搶到這個錢又不負擔義務然後萬一你們跟地方協商的話地方政府又要推給你說那這個你學校午餐條例還是要中央出錢那這就非常的不合理"},{"start":499.094,"end":512.029,"text":"剛剛我們很多藍營 待會葉元智委員我們應該問他嘛新北市學校午餐條例新北市要負擔百分之多少次長你覺得地方政府應該要負擔多少才合理主席說我們是不能去問我想是這樣說"},{"start":513.871,"end":530.634,"text":"我就想這個國教補助 補助孩子這絕對是教育部甜蜜的負擔我們都願意多出但問題是說如果沒有能力出的時候地方中央一起來談一起來出能夠談出一個名簿我們好好修修得更好負擔更多我覺得那就是甜蜜的負擔我們都願意承擔"},{"start":531.175,"end":547.678,"text":"我相信就是說因為我們這邊委員都在中央大家會希望中央多買單一點那但是就剛講的財化法中央錢就不夠了如果少子化的錢都要地方的話我也會擔心萬一地方不做因為沒有任何的法律的基礎就是地方要負擔嘛"},{"start":548.379,"end":572.147,"text":"那這個事情應該大家一起來解決那當然我個人還是希望說行政院能夠務實算出之後有一個可執行的版本那是不是我們就是不分黨派包含議員之委員都一起來遊說地方願意承諾分擔多少我想這樣才會有個合理的溝通專法的精神我們都很支持就專法的精神都是要孩子吃的好吃的安全吃的營養"},{"start":573.107,"end":587.564,"text":"那吃的這個能夠均衡所以我覺得這個我們都支持只是說像營養師增加我們現在版本設算的經費也都出來如果我們如果我們不去面對的話我們就不會去設算這個經費就是說我們也希望能夠達到這個目標"},{"start":589.246,"end":611.012,"text":"那我希望這個溝通速度越快越好那也跟剛剛委員一樣那個溝通的紀錄是不是也都可以給本委員會因為財務法確定之後行政會有指示說我們大概會減少多少的時候如果開過會我們比較確定的也許他覺得這份不能減那跟地方政府的溝通紀錄也給本席一份好嗎好 謝謝謝謝次長 一起加油謝謝范雲委員質詢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":766,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時）謝謝召委，有請次長。"],["主席：有請次長備詢，謝謝。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員好。"],["范委員雲：次長午安。在我問學校供餐法前，我先針對早上有委員提到科博館的事情，我知道張廖萬堅次長出自臺中，科博館也都說您一直大力支持。因為這個陳情案其實我也有收到，我知道賴總統上任前其實就一直非常支持科博館，2024年底科博館也向教育部提出科博館升級的計畫，這是自漢寶德1993年籌劃以來最重要的計畫。我想科博館的重要性張廖次長非常瞭解，因為它是我們全國標本數最大的館，每年參觀人數也有300萬人次，非常地重要，這個計畫不會因為人事的變動而受到影響吧？次長可以承諾嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我跟離職的焦館長非常熟，也很肯定他很勇於任事。"],["范委員雲：對。"],["張廖次長萬堅：剛才因為沒有時間回答，至於這個人事案件，坦白講這也不是我的權責能夠回答的。就是說，有發生這樣的狀況，我們當然本於事權或者是計畫，這個借調的期限當然是……從這樣的角度我們可以理解，不過我想，對於這些計畫，我覺得科博館確實……"],["范委員雲：計畫不會受到影響。"],["張廖次長萬堅：確實需要投入一些資源來改善。"],["范委員雲：我想至少教育部承諾這些升級的計畫不會受影響。第二個，我也希望次長在這邊可以承諾能夠多化、強化跟裡面的專業研究人員溝通，減少衝擊，這應該可以做到吧？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，我想我會跟部長建議，就是說應該去瞭解一下，到館裡面去瞭解整個發展是不是有外傳這樣的狀況，來跟地方好好溝通。"],["范委員雲：對。"],["張廖次長萬堅：如果部長真的公務繁忙我也可以過去，沒有關係。"],["范委員雲：好，我想如果張廖次長出動的話，大家應該是更有信心了，因為你本來就瞭解臺中科博館的重要性。","再回到今天的這個主題，因為我想剛剛次長其實都有回應過，我也想再重申，這一屆有很多教文委員跟非教文委員，我們組了「為下一代而戰連線」，就把營養午餐專法列為重要的法案。也不只是這一屆，張廖次長跟我們在一起時的上一屆，我們都非常關心，我個人也跟民團多次召開記者會，呼籲教育部儘速制定學校供餐法，也跟教育部上一屆的潘部長質詢過，當時就說有草案基礎，會加速地推，教育部也回應我，認同而且會訂出前瞻且創新的學校午餐專法。","其實我們都知道為什麼要訂這個部分，我也知道剛剛張廖次長有講到，你們現在已經做了非常專法中在講的事情，已經有七十幾億每年都提升包含契約各方面，但是有一點，營養師的部分還是沒有辦法做到嗎？因為營養師的現狀是，每班30人，一個營養師要負擔1,200人，據我們知道，其實就日本來講，只要550個人就有，這是日本的狀態，所以我們跟日本比起來還是差距很大。日本是在1954年，韓國是在1981年就有相關的專法了，當然我自己的版本還特別重視多元飲食文化跟飲食教育，還有這個剩食的部分。因為我覺得，國中小生他們其實需要惜食的教育，讓剩食減量，這也是我原本相關的法中有提到的。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["范委員雲：所以也因為這些原因，我覺得很重要，要有這個專法，可是我剛剛聽了半天，我也知道行政院的卡關是卡關在哪裡，因為我想本來潘部長或者張廖次長一定會非常支持把它法制化，雖然現在有非常多的部分是教育部已經做到的，這個部分您可不可以再講一下？剛剛也有委員講說財劃法的部分可以協商，到底地方政府……您剛剛有講到會議紀錄會給委員嘛？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["范委員雲：是哪些地方政府願意來分擔這個錢？"],["張廖次長萬堅：這個部分還沒有談，因為……"],["范委員雲：還沒談。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，財劃法通過之後，因為有行政院的救濟程序、覆議都還沒過，我們就這個部分去跟地方談也不知道怎麼談，因為地方也不確定它拿了多少錢。我提過，每個地方對於新版財劃法版本的獲配數是不是滿意？我們要如何做一刀切，說什麼樣的縣市幾成、幾成，這樣他們同不同意？這其實有溝通的難度。我們願意溝通，如果已經確定是這樣子，新版的財劃法是明年上路的話，今年我們不會去動。今年修法如果增加了預算，我們講過至少會二十六億多元，包括你提到要符合營養師550人的標準，我們就朝這個目標來努力的話，要增加2億7,000萬，這部分我們可以先跟地方談是不是他們願意多付一點。"],["范委員雲：以我個人看，其實教育本來就是地方事務。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["范委員雲：教育部過去做了非常多的補助……"],["張廖次長萬堅：簡單地講，就是依財劃法，它把錢拿回去，權利、義務也要對等，我們不是把國民教育就甩鍋給地方，而是說拿了錢回去，責就要扛回去，這樣子會比較好。"],["范委員雲：對。如果地方就是拒絕呢？它又要錢，又不想負擔責任，我們怎麼辦？"],["張廖次長萬堅：這個就會變成不穩定的教育預算跟教育政策，其實這是我們不樂見的。財劃法的修法這樣匆忙通過之後，造成了教育預算、國教補助這些的不穩定性，我常常覺得穩定的教育預算是國家的福氣、是孩子的福氣。"],["范委員雲：對。我也想藉這個機會請教次長，這次財劃法要撥到地方的三千多億裡面，教育部受到的影響大概會有多少億？這一定是各部會均攤嘛。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["范委員雲：教育部會攤多少？會減少多少？會不會影響到地方原本譬如老舊房舍補助等等這些？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們私下估算，如果有些預算像國防預算等等一定不能刪凍的話……"],["范委員雲：國防預算、國安當然不能減。"],["張廖次長萬堅：不能減的話，我們也不是只有28%。其實教育預算也有很多譬如少子化補助，我們分攤了688億，這部分到底是要跟地方合作，一樣請它負擔一點，還是我們要跟著減？跟著減的話……"],["范委員雲：少子化就是指像公托跟非營利的補助？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，第一胎5,000、第二胎6,000、第三胎7,000，還有公托的補助，就是他們去上幼兒園，補助1,000、2,000、3,000，負擔減低，這部分教育部也分攤了688億，這部分也不能減。所以要減的業務費用，剛才大家討論很多，就是會減到一些各單位的業務費用，事實上目前各單位正在籌編明年預算的時候，也在想我們有些可能必須要刪個三成或多少，如果方案一是刪三成的話，我們要少哪些、減哪些？地方要怎麼去談？所以這是一個很困難的工作。"],["范委員雲：我現在也憂心的是地方拿了、搶到財劃法的錢，又不負擔義務，然後萬一你們跟地方協商的時候，地方政府又要推給你，學校午餐條例還是要中央出錢，這就非常地不合理。待會葉元之委員要質詢，我們應該問他，根據新北市學校午餐條例，新北市要負擔百分之多少？次長，您覺得地方政府應該要負擔多少才合理？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們是被問，主席說我們不能詢問。我想是這樣，這個國教補助、補助孩子……"],["范委員雲：是八比二，地方八、中央二嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：這個絕對是教育部甜蜜的負擔，我們都願意多出，但問題是如果沒有能力出的時候，地方、中央一起來談、一起來出，能夠談出個名目，我們好好修、修得更好、負擔更多，我覺得那都是甜蜜的負擔，我們都願意承擔。"],["范委員雲：瞭解。我相信委員都在中央，大家會希望中央多買單一點，但是就像剛剛講的，財劃法分配給中央的錢就不夠了，如果少子化的錢都要地方出的話，我也會擔心萬一地方不做，因為沒有任何法律的基礎規定地方要負擔，這個事情應該大家一起來解決。當然，我個人還是希望行政院能夠務實算出之後，有一個可執行的版本，是不是我們不分黨派，包含葉元之委員，都一起來遊說地方願意承諾分擔多少？我想這樣才會有一個合理的溝通。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，專法的精神我們都很支持，專法的精神都是要孩子能夠吃得好、吃得安全、吃得營養、吃得均衡，所以我們都支持。只是像營養師增加，我們現在版本設算的經費也都出來了，如果我們不去面對的話，我們就不會去設算這個經費，也就是說，我們也希望能夠達到這個目標。"],["范委員雲：好。我希望這個溝通速度越快越好，也跟剛剛委員講的一樣，溝通的紀錄是不是也都可以給本委員會？"],["張廖次長萬堅：因為財劃法確定之後，行政院會有指示我們大概會減少多少的時候，如果有開過會，我們比較確定了，也許它覺得這部分不能減，我們就不會減。"],["范委員雲：跟地方政府的溝通紀錄也給本席一份，好嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，謝謝。"],["范委員雲：謝謝次長，一起加油。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員質詢，官員請回座。","接下來請葉元之委員繼續質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","洪孟楷","王育敏","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","陳秀寳","葉元之","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","林宜瑾","劉書彬","郭昱晴","范雲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林倩綺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","吳思瑤","李坤城","陳培瑜"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(二) 審\n查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 (三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐\n法草案」案、(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等\n20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員黃健豪等 20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、\n( 七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21 人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案、 ( 八) 審查委員林倩綺等 21 人擬具\n「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案、 ( 九 ) 審查委員鍾佳濱等 17 人擬具「學校午餐法草案」\n案、(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十一) 審查委員張雅\n琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午\n餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案、\n(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十六) 審查委員葉元之等\n20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草\n案」案、(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案、(十九) 審查委員劉建國等\n17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案、(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐\n法草案」案、(二十一) 審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」\n案、(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案（僅進行詢答）；二、審\n查「運動產業發展條例」：(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及\n第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第\n二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展\n條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業\n發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二\n條條文修正草案」案、(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」、(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1142901_00003"}}}