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\"藐\"}, {\"word\": \"視\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,356 --> 00:00:21,850\n謝謝主席有請國務部長國務部長在正式主席只有今天的主席之前我想請教你你支持企業造假嗎你直接回答\n\n2\n00:00:25,225 --> 00:00:49,892\n我怎麼可能支持企業造假那我把企業造假這幾個字丟在Google裡面我們可以看到很多東西檢驗公司勾結營造商驗收造假台塑集團造假空污數據檢測公司檢驗血產品造假甚至部長您也被指稱說財報造假所以我現在請教部長您現在是在經濟部長這個位置您再問一次您支持企業造假嗎\n\n3\n00:00:53,680 --> 00:01:13,545\n您說您支持協造假嗎報告委員我剛才已經回答您的問題了嘛部長這是2019年8月報導者的系列報導reporter環境檢測機構比起本身排放污染的這個工廠更容易被政府這個處罰你看過這個報導嗎你看過你知道為什麼會這樣嗎排放污染工廠\n\n4\n00:01:20,729 --> 00:01:40,947\n環境檢測機構前者比較容易被處罰你知道為什麼嗎部長你知道為什麼嗎我是建議你去看這個報告你知道為什麼嗎這個不是經濟部所屬的範圍這是個概念部長環境檢測機構因為他受業者委託嘛拿人的手軟吃人的嘴軟嘛所以他會去幫業者去美化\n\n5\n00:01:42,588 --> 00:02:09,208\n這個污染數據躲避政府的稽查結果他們本來應該是公正的檢測者結果他們現在變成污染的遮羞布那所以為什麼當時環境部環境檢驗所他們去稽查的時候很多檢查機構檢測機構都被處罰了為什麼業界會這樣呢普遍存在業界我必須說政府跟國營事業帶頭違法作假要負起最大的責任我先請問部長假設\n\n6\n00:02:11,649 --> 00:02:23,674\n國營事業造假你會徹查嗎假設的問題假設如果有人作假你會去徹查嗎我回答委員的問題如果是事實\n\n7\n00:02:24,864 --> 00:02:30,088\n我支持你的這個檢舉但是假設的問題我不允許評論我們不能夠在這個地方討論這個假設的問題如果委員你認為他有造假他是個事實請你去告他嘛我問你的國營事業造假你辦不辦\n\n8\n00:02:48,997 --> 00:02:56,522\n我這是依法辦理啊上週五好不要批了上週五我在總質詢公開向左院長揭發台電協和電廠市街突然污染造假你當時也在備詢台上請問你後來有去了解這件事嗎\n\n9\n00:03:04,226 --> 00:03:08,150\n左院黨答應我做行政調查你後來有去了解這件事嗎你後來有去了解這件事嗎我們當然有去了解嘛好你有去了解你沒有藐視國會簡報上是2019、2012、2022內部的\n\n10\n00:03:20,922 --> 00:03:50,011\n台電內部的土壤這個調查報告我手上有好幾份同樣的監測點有多次出現土壤重金屬污染但台電都對外隱瞞其中有一份我在環評開會2月26號的前一天我新聞我新聞到這個我新聞到環境部那當然環境部都還沒有大大剌剌的這個碾壓過去這是他們要負責的部分但是我請教你你有向台電要求看這幾份報告嗎\n\n11\n00:03:51,189 --> 00:04:12,070\n報告委員我是不是可以請完全還原事實的台電總經理跟你報告好嗎現在我只要問你我在總諮詢都提出這幾份報告而且是新的2019、2022我們台電的同仁願意來跟你講真正的事實嗎部長不然你想想看我下面這個部分好台電\n\n12\n00:04:14,472 --> 00:04:15,513\n您的簡報是顧問公司的不是我們台電接受的這是接避者給我的資料\n\n13\n00:04:35,455 --> 00:04:43,198\n這個台電利用所謂的自主調查它在正式的環評調查自己先先偷做了現在我再看一個資料請你尊重我的發言權就是說12月的時候正式要做環評的檢測但是在9月就偷做了先自己所謂的你的自主性調查所以你們知道結果了在11月的時候你們內部的工作會議上面寫的什麼\n\n14\n00:05:04,562 --> 00:05:14,748\n超標濃度不高的你就翻土的方法處理翻一翻稀釋掉沒事好最嚴重的是下一個你已經知道很多污染點你採過59個點位也採樣過160幾個點位發現有污染的位置正式調查時可以移點避開再來採樣檢測天吶\n\n15\n00:05:27,301 --> 00:05:53,712\n天啊報告委員你是不是讓委員到你的辦公室給你做一個比較事實的給你報告因為很多的人其實他提出來給你的資料可能不過那麼詳實我們讓我們自己的單位跟你直接報告直接反映你的問題但是委員你都不接受我們的事實報告那你一直用你這個別人給你的資料不見得是正確的那你可以提來\n\n16\n00:05:54,452 --> 00:06:05,021\n我必須監督行政單位你看最後環評得到什麼資料所以我們已經有事實要跟你報告我已經告訴你2019、2012、2022我也找到內部的資料告訴我們你們處理了好這一副資料是最後你們看到的資料這個你們最後看到什麼ND用一個點一個點位採測\n\n17\n00:06:16,091 --> 00:06:26,140\n這個是根據他的法律的規定我們這樣子做嘛我們是依法行事報告委員我們是依法行事所以你不能夠這樣子你能不能看看TPH就是這個污染指標重金屬氮二辛超標原動灌紅色的字紅色的就是超標喔大家在場大家都會看好繼續看你看\n\n18\n00:06:40,515 --> 00:06:46,427\n這個總時有天津化合物多入連本上一頁有多入連本逆都是超標的紅色好再下一張\n\n19\n00:06:48,219 --> 00:07:11,849\n這個重金屬都是超標的這個都是你們的報告你們的報告這一份最後一頁部長這一部也是你們內部報告第三章污染污染細部調查結果你看倒數第二行還有多鹿連本都出現了在這剛剛我在第一頁的時候有告訴你多鹿連本有那麼毒的四季就多鹿連本都出現了\n\n20\n00:07:13,411 --> 00:07:32,828\n結果呢協和電廠台電他的決定不是好好整治這個東西在規避規避這個資料我們認為你現在所指責的這個部分可能都是有一些資訊上面不足的地方我們是不是可以拿真正的我們內部的地方到你的辦公室跟你做一個\n\n21\n00:07:33,288 --> 00:07:50,875\n我們來做行政調查我們要求全面的報告但是你在這個地方指責我們的東西好像跟我們認知是有很大的差異跟事實有很大的差異在這裡我要跟您報告您的資料跟我們的事實有很大的差異\n\n22\n00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:54,681\n部長核心資料沒有給第六章空缺直接開會開會的時候環評是17比0通過環評法有環評法的程序又來了你說土屋法我告訴你第17條第二項很清楚你這個土屋法要開\n\n23\n00:08:09,510 --> 00:08:15,355\n要進行土地再利用的時候有一些限制凡是受到這個環評法規定有害明明就是扣連的明明就是扣連的法規不然為什麼世界環評委員要求看土壤的這個偵測報告為什麼第二階段的環評委員也是要求看如果不重要為什麼世界開發案要求看環評委員要求看資料結果你們隱瞞\n\n24\n00:08:37,131 --> 00:08:46,609\n是經濟部自己要求這樣做還是台電自己做的我歡迎你到這個法院去提告這個是公開的事情是歡迎你到法院去提告嘛\n\n25\n00:08:47,472 --> 00:09:10,810\n好不好我跟你講說我們是事實要跟你報告你不接受那你用一個虛無的東西來指責我我用虛無的東西部長你講話小心喔這是你們內部揭秘者我們民眾團體所揭秘的保護法現在已經順利喔你講的跟你所指責的部分是非常奇怪的事實啊我要跟你報告事實你不接受那我怎麼部長你的事實我給的是證據我給的是書面報告我給的是數字檢查我給的是檢驗數字我有日期\n\n26\n00:09:17,557 --> 00:09:38,483\n你現在索賠說你有指控我這個是假的嗎不是我建議你如果你認為他是事實嘛我建議你到法院去提報我們來做行政辦你現在就要訴訟法我們要做行政調查卓院長已經親口在總執行答應我做這個行政調查你敢配合嗎我們當然配合好那我現在要求那個市街開發案的現場封閉不動我懷疑台電現在就在處理\n\n27\n00:09:44,125 --> 00:10:00,912\n他敢翻土他敢疑點他現在在處理中先封閉可以嗎封閉現場不動不要讓他有機會作弊可以嗎這小事啊報告委員可以吧可以吧我們都不需要依現在的法令行事我就是跟你談法我跟你談土無法我跟你談環評法\n\n28\n00:10:03,148 --> 00:10:08,154\n可以吧你可以答應這件事吧現場開發案先封閉起來就跟命案一樣先封閉起來你就算做一個這麼大的開發案你要讓人民服氣嘛這個資料是新發現資料被隱藏的資料嘛\n\n29\n00:10:18,527 --> 00:10:30,351\n你講得非常正確所以我們在開發前一定會按照你所做的事情在處理好那先把這個場地封閉起來可以嗎讓他沒有機會作弊我們不能夠去封閉場地我們是根據什麼法去封閉這個場地啦\n\n30\n00:10:34,540 --> 00:10:56,357\n有問題我們有新市政啊不是你要取我可以依循的法給我做啊這是行政行政這個根本不用依法你們暫停因為有問題暫停不要讓排電人員進去這個不用動到法律麻煩你找到一個我可以做的法令給我我一定依據你所提出來的我來做嘛你從頭到尾都在講空話\n\n31\n00:11:00,319 --> 00:11:22,057\n不要我沒有那個意思喔我只是說請你告訴我們我們應該怎麼走但是必須要有法令的依據嘛是不是我們一直都是依法在行事嘛我就告訴你土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土\n\n32\n00:11:28,619 --> 00:11:40,602\n陳超市委員不好意思部長今天我今天開記者會你們台電不敢來經濟部不敢來環保局環保環境部來了為什麼歸縮不敢出現敢做不敢當敢做不敢當\n\n33\n00:11:42,486 --> 00:12:01,229\n不敢來啊不敢參加記者會啊不敢來啊不願意嗎不害怕嗎不敢嗎沒有這種規定說來就是敢來不敢來然後我想這個這個討論好像超過一般的大家的認知結果你們不出現現在你跟我說要依法我就是要告訴你法令啊\n\n34\n00:12:01,738 --> 00:12:15,525\n好那如果說你可以說我今天哪一條法令說我們一定要配合去我們就會依法行事啦法令依法人員的職責就可以監督行政機關啊這個法令就一直都存在啊部長不要藐視國會不要講空話我不可能藐視國會\n\n35\n00:12:23,001 --> 00:12:34,708\n我們也不會藐視國會我們都是在法令的法的基礎之下行事我們一定在法的基礎之下行事我們也不會藐視國會也不敢藐視國會\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4356\t21850\t謝謝主席 有請國務部長國務部長在正式主席只有今天的主席之前 我想請教你 你支持企業造假嗎你直接回答\n25225\t49892\t我怎麼可能支持企業造假那我把企業造假這幾個字丟在Google裡面我們可以看到很多東西檢驗公司勾結營造商驗收造假台塑集團造假空污數據檢測公司檢驗血產品造假甚至部長您也被指稱說財報造假所以我現在請教部長您現在是在經濟部長這個位置您再問一次您支持企業造假嗎\n53680\t73545\t您說您支持協造假嗎報告委員我剛才已經回答您的問題了嘛部長這是2019年8月報導者的系列報導reporter環境檢測機構比起本身排放污染的這個工廠更容易被政府這個處罰你看過這個報導嗎你看過你知道為什麼會這樣嗎排放污染工廠\n80729\t100947\t環境檢測機構前者比較容易被處罰你知道為什麼嗎部長你知道為什麼嗎我是建議你去看這個報告你知道為什麼嗎這個不是經濟部所屬的範圍這是個概念部長環境檢測機構因為他受業者委託嘛拿人的手軟吃人的嘴軟嘛所以他會去幫業者去美化\n102588\t129208\t這個污染數據躲避政府的稽查結果他們本來應該是公正的檢測者結果他們現在變成污染的遮羞布那所以為什麼當時環境部環境檢驗所他們去稽查的時候很多檢查機構檢測機構都被處罰了為什麼業界會這樣呢普遍存在業界我必須說政府跟國營事業帶頭違法作假要負起最大的責任我先請問部長假設\n131649\t143674\t國營事業造假你會徹查嗎假設的問題假設如果有人作假你會去徹查嗎我回答委員的問題如果是事實\n144864\t150088\t我支持你的這個檢舉 但是假設的問題 我不允許評論我們不能夠在這個地方討論這個假設的問題如果委員你認為他有造假 他是個事實 請你去告他嘛我問你的國營事業造假 你辦不辦\n168997\t176522\t我這是依法辦理啊上週五好不要批了上週五我在總質詢公開向左院長揭發台電協和電廠市街突然污染造假你當時也在備詢台上請問你後來有去了解這件事嗎\n184226\t188150\t左院黨答應我做行政調查你後來有去了解這件事嗎你後來有去了解這件事嗎我們當然有去了解嘛好 你有去了解 你沒有藐視國會簡報上是2019、2012、2022內部的\n200922\t230011\t台電內部的土壤這個調查報告我手上有好幾份同樣的監測點有多次出現土壤重金屬污染但台電都對外隱瞞其中有一份我在環評開會2月26號的前一天我新聞我新聞到這個我新聞到環境部那當然環境部都還沒有大大剌剌的這個碾壓過去這是他們要負責的部分但是我請教你你有向台電要求看這幾份報告嗎\n231189\t252070\t報告委員我是不是可以請完全還原事實的台電總經理跟你報告好嗎現在我只要問你我在總諮詢都提出這幾份報告而且是新的2019、2022我們台電的同仁願意來跟你講真正的事實嗎部長不然你想想看我下面這個部分好台電\n254472\t255513\t您的簡報是顧問公司的不是我們台電接受的這是接避者給我的資料\n275455\t283198\t這個台電利用所謂的自主調查它在正式的環評調查 自己先先偷做了現在我再看一個資料請你尊重我的發言權就是說12月的時候正式要做環評的檢測但是在9月就偷做了先自己所謂的你的自主性調查所以你們知道結果了在11月的時候你們內部的工作會議上面寫的什麼\n304562\t314748\t超標濃度不高的你就翻土的方法處理翻一翻稀釋掉沒事好最嚴重的是下一個你已經知道很多污染點你採過59個點位也採樣過160幾個點位發現有污染的位置正式調查時可以移點避開再來採樣檢測天吶\n327301\t353712\t天啊報告委員你是不是讓委員到你的辦公室給你做一個比較事實的給你報告因為很多的人其實他提出來給你的資料可能不過那麼詳實我們讓我們自己的單位跟你直接報告直接反映你的問題但是委員你都不接受我們的事實報告那你一直用你這個別人給你的資料不見得是正確的那你可以提來\n354452\t365021\t我必須監督行政單位你看最後環評得到什麼資料所以我們已經有事實要跟你報告我已經告訴你2019、2012、2022我也找到內部的資料告訴我們你們處理了好 這一副資料是最後你們看到的資料這個你們最後看到什麼ND用一個點 一個點位採測\n376091\t386140\t這個是根據他的法律的規定 我們這樣子做嘛我們是依法行事 報告委員 我們是依法行事所以你不能夠這樣子 你能不能看看TPH就是這個污染指標 重金屬 氮二辛 超標原動 灌紅色的字紅色的就是超標喔 大家在場大家都會看好 繼續看 你看\n400515\t406427\t這個總時有天津化合物多入連本上一頁有多入連本逆都是超標的紅色好 再下一張\n408219\t431849\t這個重金屬都是超標的這個都是你們的報告你們的報告這一份最後一頁部長這一部也是你們內部報告第三章污染污染細部調查結果你看倒數第二行還有多鹿連本都出現了在這剛剛我在第一頁的時候有告訴你多鹿連本有那麼毒的四季就多鹿連本都出現了\n433411\t452828\t結果呢 協和電廠台電他的決定不是好好整治這個東西在規避 規避這個資料我們認為你現在所指責的這個部分可能都是有一些資訊上面不足的地方我們是不是可以拿真正的我們內部的地方到你的辦公室跟你做一個\n453288\t470875\t我們來做行政調查 我們要求全面的報告但是你在這個地方指責我們的東西好像跟我們認知是有很大的差異跟事實有很大的差異在這裡我要跟您報告您的資料跟我們的事實有很大的差異\n472520\t474681\t部長核心資料沒有給第六章空缺直接開會開會的時候環評是17比0通過環評法有環評法的程序又來了你說土屋法我告訴你第17條第二項很清楚你這個土屋法要開\n489510\t495355\t要進行土地再利用的時候有一些限制凡是受到這個環評法規定有害明明就是扣連的明明就是扣連的法規不然為什麼世界環評委員要求看土壤的這個偵測報告為什麼第二階段的環評委員也是要求看如果不重要為什麼世界開發案要求看環評委員要求看資料結果你們隱瞞\n517131\t526609\t是經濟部自己要求這樣做 還是台電自己做的我歡迎你到這個法院去提告這個是公開的事情是 歡迎你到法院去提告嘛\n527472\t550810\t好不好 我跟你講說我們是事實要跟你報告你不接受那你用一個虛無的東西來指責我 我用虛無的東西部長你講話小心喔這是你們內部揭秘者 我們民眾團體所揭秘的保護法現在已經順利喔 你講的跟你所指責的部分是非常奇怪的事實啊我要跟你報告事實 你不接受那我怎麼 部長你的事實 我給的是證據我給的是書面報告 我給的是數字檢查我給的是檢驗數字 我有日期\n557557\t578483\t你現在索賠說你有指控我這個是假的嗎不是我建議你如果你認為他是事實嘛我建議你到法院去提報我們來做行政辦你現在就要訴訟法我們要做行政調查卓院長已經親口在總執行答應我做這個行政調查你敢配合嗎我們當然配合好那我現在要求那個市街開發案的現場封閉不動我懷疑台電現在就在處理\n584125\t600912\t他敢翻土他敢疑點他現在在處理中先封閉可以嗎封閉現場不動不要讓他有機會作弊可以嗎這小事啊報告委員可以吧可以吧我們都不需要依現在的法令行事我就是跟你談法我跟你談土無法我跟你談環評法\n603148\t608154\t可以吧 你可以答應這件事吧現場開發案先封閉起來就跟命案一樣先封閉起來你就算做一個這麼大的開發案 你要讓人民服氣嘛這個資料是新發現資料 被隱藏的資料嘛\n618527\t630351\t你講得非常正確所以我們在開發前一定會按照你所做的事情在處理好那先把這個場地封閉起來可以嗎讓他沒有機會作弊我們不能夠去封閉場地我們是根據什麼法去封閉這個場地啦\n634540\t656357\t有問題我們有新市政啊不是 你要取 我可以依循的法給我做啊這是行政 行政這個根本不用依法你們暫停 因為有問題暫停不要讓排電人員進去這個不用動到法律麻煩你找到一個我可以做的法令給我我一定依據你所提出來的我來做嘛你從頭到尾都在講空話\n660319\t682057\t不要 我沒有那個意思喔 我只是說請你告訴我們我們應該怎麼走但是必須要有法令的依據嘛是不是我們一直都是依法在行事嘛我就告訴你土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土\n688619\t700602\t陳超市委員不好意思部長今天我今天開記者會你們台電不敢來經濟部不敢來環保局環保環境部來了為什麼歸縮不敢出現敢做不敢當敢做不敢當\n702486\t721229\t不敢來啊不敢參加記者會啊不敢來啊不願意嗎不害怕嗎不敢嗎沒有這種規定說來就是敢來不敢來然後我想這個這個討論好像超過一般的大家的認知結果你們不出現現在你跟我說要依法我就是要告訴你法令啊\n721738\t735525\t好 那如果說你可以說我今天哪一條法令說我們一定要配合去我們就會依法行事啦法令 依法人員的職責就可以監督行政機關啊這個法令就一直都存在啊部長 不要藐視國會 不要講空話我不可能藐視國會\n743001\t754708\t我們也不會藐視國會我們都是在法令的法的基礎之下行事我們一定在法的基礎之下行事我們也不會藐視國會也不敢藐視國會\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請國務部長國務部長在正式主席只有今天的主席之前 我想請教你 你支持企業造假嗎你直接回答\n我怎麼可能支持企業造假那我把企業造假這幾個字丟在Google裡面我們可以看到很多東西檢驗公司勾結營造商驗收造假台塑集團造假空污數據檢測公司檢驗血產品造假甚至部長您也被指稱說財報造假所以我現在請教部長您現在是在經濟部長這個位置您再問一次您支持企業造假嗎\n您說您支持協造假嗎報告委員我剛才已經回答您的問題了嘛部長這是2019年8月報導者的系列報導reporter環境檢測機構比起本身排放污染的這個工廠更容易被政府這個處罰你看過這個報導嗎你看過你知道為什麼會這樣嗎排放污染工廠\n環境檢測機構前者比較容易被處罰你知道為什麼嗎部長你知道為什麼嗎我是建議你去看這個報告你知道為什麼嗎這個不是經濟部所屬的範圍這是個概念部長環境檢測機構因為他受業者委託嘛拿人的手軟吃人的嘴軟嘛所以他會去幫業者去美化\n這個污染數據躲避政府的稽查結果他們本來應該是公正的檢測者結果他們現在變成污染的遮羞布那所以為什麼當時環境部環境檢驗所他們去稽查的時候很多檢查機構檢測機構都被處罰了為什麼業界會這樣呢普遍存在業界我必須說政府跟國營事業帶頭違法作假要負起最大的責任我先請問部長假設\n國營事業造假你會徹查嗎假設的問題假設如果有人作假你會去徹查嗎我回答委員的問題如果是事實\n我支持你的這個檢舉 但是假設的問題 我不允許評論我們不能夠在這個地方討論這個假設的問題如果委員你認為他有造假 他是個事實 請你去告他嘛我問你的國營事業造假 你辦不辦\n我這是依法辦理啊上週五好不要批了上週五我在總質詢公開向左院長揭發台電協和電廠市街突然污染造假你當時也在備詢台上請問你後來有去了解這件事嗎\n左院黨答應我做行政調查你後來有去了解這件事嗎你後來有去了解這件事嗎我們當然有去了解嘛好 你有去了解 你沒有藐視國會簡報上是2019、2012、2022內部的\n台電內部的土壤這個調查報告我手上有好幾份同樣的監測點有多次出現土壤重金屬污染但台電都對外隱瞞其中有一份我在環評開會2月26號的前一天我新聞我新聞到這個我新聞到環境部那當然環境部都還沒有大大剌剌的這個碾壓過去這是他們要負責的部分但是我請教你你有向台電要求看這幾份報告嗎\n報告委員我是不是可以請完全還原事實的台電總經理跟你報告好嗎現在我只要問你我在總諮詢都提出這幾份報告而且是新的2019、2022我們台電的同仁願意來跟你講真正的事實嗎部長不然你想想看我下面這個部分好台電\n您的簡報是顧問公司的不是我們台電接受的這是接避者給我的資料\n這個台電利用所謂的自主調查它在正式的環評調查 自己先先偷做了現在我再看一個資料請你尊重我的發言權就是說12月的時候正式要做環評的檢測但是在9月就偷做了先自己所謂的你的自主性調查所以你們知道結果了在11月的時候你們內部的工作會議上面寫的什麼\n超標濃度不高的你就翻土的方法處理翻一翻稀釋掉沒事好最嚴重的是下一個你已經知道很多污染點你採過59個點位也採樣過160幾個點位發現有污染的位置正式調查時可以移點避開再來採樣檢測天吶\n天啊報告委員你是不是讓委員到你的辦公室給你做一個比較事實的給你報告因為很多的人其實他提出來給你的資料可能不過那麼詳實我們讓我們自己的單位跟你直接報告直接反映你的問題但是委員你都不接受我們的事實報告那你一直用你這個別人給你的資料不見得是正確的那你可以提來\n我必須監督行政單位你看最後環評得到什麼資料所以我們已經有事實要跟你報告我已經告訴你2019、2012、2022我也找到內部的資料告訴我們你們處理了好 這一副資料是最後你們看到的資料這個你們最後看到什麼ND用一個點 一個點位採測\n這個是根據他的法律的規定 我們這樣子做嘛我們是依法行事 報告委員 我們是依法行事所以你不能夠這樣子 你能不能看看TPH就是這個污染指標 重金屬 氮二辛 超標原動 灌紅色的字紅色的就是超標喔 大家在場大家都會看好 繼續看 你看\n這個總時有天津化合物多入連本上一頁有多入連本逆都是超標的紅色好 再下一張\n這個重金屬都是超標的這個都是你們的報告你們的報告這一份最後一頁部長這一部也是你們內部報告第三章污染污染細部調查結果你看倒數第二行還有多鹿連本都出現了在這剛剛我在第一頁的時候有告訴你多鹿連本有那麼毒的四季就多鹿連本都出現了\n結果呢 協和電廠台電他的決定不是好好整治這個東西在規避 規避這個資料我們認為你現在所指責的這個部分可能都是有一些資訊上面不足的地方我們是不是可以拿真正的我們內部的地方到你的辦公室跟你做一個\n我們來做行政調查 我們要求全面的報告但是你在這個地方指責我們的東西好像跟我們認知是有很大的差異跟事實有很大的差異在這裡我要跟您報告您的資料跟我們的事實有很大的差異\n部長核心資料沒有給第六章空缺直接開會開會的時候環評是17比0通過環評法有環評法的程序又來了你說土屋法我告訴你第17條第二項很清楚你這個土屋法要開\n要進行土地再利用的時候有一些限制凡是受到這個環評法規定有害明明就是扣連的明明就是扣連的法規不然為什麼世界環評委員要求看土壤的這個偵測報告為什麼第二階段的環評委員也是要求看如果不重要為什麼世界開發案要求看環評委員要求看資料結果你們隱瞞\n是經濟部自己要求這樣做 還是台電自己做的我歡迎你到這個法院去提告這個是公開的事情是 歡迎你到法院去提告嘛\n好不好 我跟你講說我們是事實要跟你報告你不接受那你用一個虛無的東西來指責我 我用虛無的東西部長你講話小心喔這是你們內部揭秘者 我們民眾團體所揭秘的保護法現在已經順利喔 你講的跟你所指責的部分是非常奇怪的事實啊我要跟你報告事實 你不接受那我怎麼 部長你的事實 我給的是證據我給的是書面報告 我給的是數字檢查我給的是檢驗數字 我有日期\n你現在索賠說你有指控我這個是假的嗎不是我建議你如果你認為他是事實嘛我建議你到法院去提報我們來做行政辦你現在就要訴訟法我們要做行政調查卓院長已經親口在總執行答應我做這個行政調查你敢配合嗎我們當然配合好那我現在要求那個市街開發案的現場封閉不動我懷疑台電現在就在處理\n他敢翻土他敢疑點他現在在處理中先封閉可以嗎封閉現場不動不要讓他有機會作弊可以嗎這小事啊報告委員可以吧可以吧我們都不需要依現在的法令行事我就是跟你談法我跟你談土無法我跟你談環評法\n可以吧 你可以答應這件事吧現場開發案先封閉起來就跟命案一樣先封閉起來你就算做一個這麼大的開發案 你要讓人民服氣嘛這個資料是新發現資料 被隱藏的資料嘛\n你講得非常正確所以我們在開發前一定會按照你所做的事情在處理好那先把這個場地封閉起來可以嗎讓他沒有機會作弊我們不能夠去封閉場地我們是根據什麼法去封閉這個場地啦\n有問題我們有新市政啊不是 你要取 我可以依循的法給我做啊這是行政 行政這個根本不用依法你們暫停 因為有問題暫停不要讓排電人員進去這個不用動到法律麻煩你找到一個我可以做的法令給我我一定依據你所提出來的我來做嘛你從頭到尾都在講空話\n不要 我沒有那個意思喔 我只是說請你告訴我們我們應該怎麼走但是必須要有法令的依據嘛是不是我們一直都是依法在行事嘛我就告訴你土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土\n陳超市委員不好意思部長今天我今天開記者會你們台電不敢來經濟部不敢來環保局環保環境部來了為什麼歸縮不敢出現敢做不敢當敢做不敢當\n不敢來啊不敢參加記者會啊不敢來啊不願意嗎不害怕嗎不敢嗎沒有這種規定說來就是敢來不敢來然後我想這個這個討論好像超過一般的大家的認知結果你們不出現現在你跟我說要依法我就是要告訴你法令啊\n好 那如果說你可以說我今天哪一條法令說我們一定要配合去我們就會依法行事啦法令 依法人員的職責就可以監督行政機關啊這個法令就一直都存在啊部長 不要藐視國會 不要講空話我不可能藐視國會\n我們也不會藐視國會我們都是在法令的法的基礎之下行事我們一定在法的基礎之下行事我們也不會藐視國會也不敢藐視國會\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.356 --> 00:21.850\n謝謝主席有請國務部長國務部長在正式主席只有今天的主席之前我想請教你你支持企業造假嗎你直接回答\n\n00:25.225 --> 00:49.892\n我怎麼可能支持企業造假那我把企業造假這幾個字丟在Google裡面我們可以看到很多東西檢驗公司勾結營造商驗收造假台塑集團造假空污數據檢測公司檢驗血產品造假甚至部長您也被指稱說財報造假所以我現在請教部長您現在是在經濟部長這個位置您再問一次您支持企業造假嗎\n\n00:53.680 --> 01:13.545\n您說您支持協造假嗎報告委員我剛才已經回答您的問題了嘛部長這是2019年8月報導者的系列報導reporter環境檢測機構比起本身排放污染的這個工廠更容易被政府這個處罰你看過這個報導嗎你看過你知道為什麼會這樣嗎排放污染工廠\n\n01:20.729 --> 01:40.947\n環境檢測機構前者比較容易被處罰你知道為什麼嗎部長你知道為什麼嗎我是建議你去看這個報告你知道為什麼嗎這個不是經濟部所屬的範圍這是個概念部長環境檢測機構因為他受業者委託嘛拿人的手軟吃人的嘴軟嘛所以他會去幫業者去美化\n\n01:42.588 --> 02:09.208\n這個污染數據躲避政府的稽查結果他們本來應該是公正的檢測者結果他們現在變成污染的遮羞布那所以為什麼當時環境部環境檢驗所他們去稽查的時候很多檢查機構檢測機構都被處罰了為什麼業界會這樣呢普遍存在業界我必須說政府跟國營事業帶頭違法作假要負起最大的責任我先請問部長假設\n\n02:11.649 --> 02:23.674\n國營事業造假你會徹查嗎假設的問題假設如果有人作假你會去徹查嗎我回答委員的問題如果是事實\n\n02:24.864 --> 02:30.088\n我支持你的這個檢舉但是假設的問題我不允許評論我們不能夠在這個地方討論這個假設的問題如果委員你認為他有造假他是個事實請你去告他嘛我問你的國營事業造假你辦不辦\n\n02:48.997 --> 02:56.522\n我這是依法辦理啊上週五好不要批了上週五我在總質詢公開向左院長揭發台電協和電廠市街突然污染造假你當時也在備詢台上請問你後來有去了解這件事嗎\n\n03:04.226 --> 03:08.150\n左院黨答應我做行政調查你後來有去了解這件事嗎你後來有去了解這件事嗎我們當然有去了解嘛好你有去了解你沒有藐視國會簡報上是2019、2012、2022內部的\n\n03:20.922 --> 03:50.011\n台電內部的土壤這個調查報告我手上有好幾份同樣的監測點有多次出現土壤重金屬污染但台電都對外隱瞞其中有一份我在環評開會2月26號的前一天我新聞我新聞到這個我新聞到環境部那當然環境部都還沒有大大剌剌的這個碾壓過去這是他們要負責的部分但是我請教你你有向台電要求看這幾份報告嗎\n\n03:51.189 --> 04:12.070\n報告委員我是不是可以請完全還原事實的台電總經理跟你報告好嗎現在我只要問你我在總諮詢都提出這幾份報告而且是新的2019、2022我們台電的同仁願意來跟你講真正的事實嗎部長不然你想想看我下面這個部分好台電\n\n04:14.472 --> 04:15.513\n您的簡報是顧問公司的不是我們台電接受的這是接避者給我的資料\n\n04:35.455 --> 04:43.198\n這個台電利用所謂的自主調查它在正式的環評調查自己先先偷做了現在我再看一個資料請你尊重我的發言權就是說12月的時候正式要做環評的檢測但是在9月就偷做了先自己所謂的你的自主性調查所以你們知道結果了在11月的時候你們內部的工作會議上面寫的什麼\n\n05:04.562 --> 05:14.748\n超標濃度不高的你就翻土的方法處理翻一翻稀釋掉沒事好最嚴重的是下一個你已經知道很多污染點你採過59個點位也採樣過160幾個點位發現有污染的位置正式調查時可以移點避開再來採樣檢測天吶\n\n05:27.301 --> 05:53.712\n天啊報告委員你是不是讓委員到你的辦公室給你做一個比較事實的給你報告因為很多的人其實他提出來給你的資料可能不過那麼詳實我們讓我們自己的單位跟你直接報告直接反映你的問題但是委員你都不接受我們的事實報告那你一直用你這個別人給你的資料不見得是正確的那你可以提來\n\n05:54.452 --> 06:05.021\n我必須監督行政單位你看最後環評得到什麼資料所以我們已經有事實要跟你報告我已經告訴你2019、2012、2022我也找到內部的資料告訴我們你們處理了好這一副資料是最後你們看到的資料這個你們最後看到什麼ND用一個點一個點位採測\n\n06:16.091 --> 06:26.140\n這個是根據他的法律的規定我們這樣子做嘛我們是依法行事報告委員我們是依法行事所以你不能夠這樣子你能不能看看TPH就是這個污染指標重金屬氮二辛超標原動灌紅色的字紅色的就是超標喔大家在場大家都會看好繼續看你看\n\n06:40.515 --> 06:46.427\n這個總時有天津化合物多入連本上一頁有多入連本逆都是超標的紅色好再下一張\n\n06:48.219 --> 07:11.849\n這個重金屬都是超標的這個都是你們的報告你們的報告這一份最後一頁部長這一部也是你們內部報告第三章污染污染細部調查結果你看倒數第二行還有多鹿連本都出現了在這剛剛我在第一頁的時候有告訴你多鹿連本有那麼毒的四季就多鹿連本都出現了\n\n07:13.411 --> 07:32.828\n結果呢協和電廠台電他的決定不是好好整治這個東西在規避規避這個資料我們認為你現在所指責的這個部分可能都是有一些資訊上面不足的地方我們是不是可以拿真正的我們內部的地方到你的辦公室跟你做一個\n\n07:33.288 --> 07:50.875\n我們來做行政調查我們要求全面的報告但是你在這個地方指責我們的東西好像跟我們認知是有很大的差異跟事實有很大的差異在這裡我要跟您報告您的資料跟我們的事實有很大的差異\n\n07:52.520 --> 07:54.681\n部長核心資料沒有給第六章空缺直接開會開會的時候環評是17比0通過環評法有環評法的程序又來了你說土屋法我告訴你第17條第二項很清楚你這個土屋法要開\n\n08:09.510 --> 08:15.355\n要進行土地再利用的時候有一些限制凡是受到這個環評法規定有害明明就是扣連的明明就是扣連的法規不然為什麼世界環評委員要求看土壤的這個偵測報告為什麼第二階段的環評委員也是要求看如果不重要為什麼世界開發案要求看環評委員要求看資料結果你們隱瞞\n\n08:37.131 --> 08:46.609\n是經濟部自己要求這樣做還是台電自己做的我歡迎你到這個法院去提告這個是公開的事情是歡迎你到法院去提告嘛\n\n08:47.472 --> 09:10.810\n好不好我跟你講說我們是事實要跟你報告你不接受那你用一個虛無的東西來指責我我用虛無的東西部長你講話小心喔這是你們內部揭秘者我們民眾團體所揭秘的保護法現在已經順利喔你講的跟你所指責的部分是非常奇怪的事實啊我要跟你報告事實你不接受那我怎麼部長你的事實我給的是證據我給的是書面報告我給的是數字檢查我給的是檢驗數字我有日期\n\n09:17.557 --> 09:38.483\n你現在索賠說你有指控我這個是假的嗎不是我建議你如果你認為他是事實嘛我建議你到法院去提報我們來做行政辦你現在就要訴訟法我們要做行政調查卓院長已經親口在總執行答應我做這個行政調查你敢配合嗎我們當然配合好那我現在要求那個市街開發案的現場封閉不動我懷疑台電現在就在處理\n\n09:44.125 --> 10:00.912\n他敢翻土他敢疑點他現在在處理中先封閉可以嗎封閉現場不動不要讓他有機會作弊可以嗎這小事啊報告委員可以吧可以吧我們都不需要依現在的法令行事我就是跟你談法我跟你談土無法我跟你談環評法\n\n10:03.148 --> 10:08.154\n可以吧你可以答應這件事吧現場開發案先封閉起來就跟命案一樣先封閉起來你就算做一個這麼大的開發案你要讓人民服氣嘛這個資料是新發現資料被隱藏的資料嘛\n\n10:18.527 --> 10:30.351\n你講得非常正確所以我們在開發前一定會按照你所做的事情在處理好那先把這個場地封閉起來可以嗎讓他沒有機會作弊我們不能夠去封閉場地我們是根據什麼法去封閉這個場地啦\n\n10:34.540 --> 10:56.357\n有問題我們有新市政啊不是你要取我可以依循的法給我做啊這是行政行政這個根本不用依法你們暫停因為有問題暫停不要讓排電人員進去這個不用動到法律麻煩你找到一個我可以做的法令給我我一定依據你所提出來的我來做嘛你從頭到尾都在講空話\n\n11:00.319 --> 11:22.057\n不要我沒有那個意思喔我只是說請你告訴我們我們應該怎麼走但是必須要有法令的依據嘛是不是我們一直都是依法在行事嘛我就告訴你土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土\n\n11:28.619 --> 11:40.602\n陳超市委員不好意思部長今天我今天開記者會你們台電不敢來經濟部不敢來環保局環保環境部來了為什麼歸縮不敢出現敢做不敢當敢做不敢當\n\n11:42.486 --> 12:01.229\n不敢來啊不敢參加記者會啊不敢來啊不願意嗎不害怕嗎不敢嗎沒有這種規定說來就是敢來不敢來然後我想這個這個討論好像超過一般的大家的認知結果你們不出現現在你跟我說要依法我就是要告訴你法令啊\n\n12:01.738 --> 12:15.525\n好那如果說你可以說我今天哪一條法令說我們一定要配合去我們就會依法行事啦法令依法人員的職責就可以監督行政機關啊這個法令就一直都存在啊部長不要藐視國會不要講空話我不可能藐視國會\n\n12:23.001 --> 12:34.708\n我們也不會藐視國會我們都是在法令的法的基礎之下行事我們一定在法的基礎之下行事我們也不會藐視國會也不敢藐視國會\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.356,"end":21.85,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國務部長國務部長在正式主席只有今天的主席之前 我想請教你 你支持企業造假嗎你直接回答"},{"start":25.225,"end":49.892,"text":"我怎麼可能支持企業造假那我把企業造假這幾個字丟在Google裡面我們可以看到很多東西檢驗公司勾結營造商驗收造假台塑集團造假空污數據檢測公司檢驗血產品造假甚至部長您也被指稱說財報造假所以我現在請教部長您現在是在經濟部長這個位置您再問一次您支持企業造假嗎"},{"start":53.68,"end":73.545,"text":"您說您支持協造假嗎報告委員我剛才已經回答您的問題了嘛部長這是2019年8月報導者的系列報導reporter環境檢測機構比起本身排放污染的這個工廠更容易被政府這個處罰你看過這個報導嗎你看過你知道為什麼會這樣嗎排放污染工廠"},{"start":80.729,"end":100.947,"text":"環境檢測機構前者比較容易被處罰你知道為什麼嗎部長你知道為什麼嗎我是建議你去看這個報告你知道為什麼嗎這個不是經濟部所屬的範圍這是個概念部長環境檢測機構因為他受業者委託嘛拿人的手軟吃人的嘴軟嘛所以他會去幫業者去美化"},{"start":102.588,"end":129.208,"text":"這個污染數據躲避政府的稽查結果他們本來應該是公正的檢測者結果他們現在變成污染的遮羞布那所以為什麼當時環境部環境檢驗所他們去稽查的時候很多檢查機構檢測機構都被處罰了為什麼業界會這樣呢普遍存在業界我必須說政府跟國營事業帶頭違法作假要負起最大的責任我先請問部長假設"},{"start":131.649,"end":143.674,"text":"國營事業造假你會徹查嗎假設的問題假設如果有人作假你會去徹查嗎我回答委員的問題如果是事實"},{"start":144.864,"end":150.088,"text":"我支持你的這個檢舉 但是假設的問題 我不允許評論我們不能夠在這個地方討論這個假設的問題如果委員你認為他有造假 他是個事實 請你去告他嘛我問你的國營事業造假 你辦不辦"},{"start":168.997,"end":176.522,"text":"我這是依法辦理啊上週五好不要批了上週五我在總質詢公開向左院長揭發台電協和電廠市街突然污染造假你當時也在備詢台上請問你後來有去了解這件事嗎"},{"start":184.226,"end":188.15,"text":"左院黨答應我做行政調查你後來有去了解這件事嗎你後來有去了解這件事嗎我們當然有去了解嘛好 你有去了解 你沒有藐視國會簡報上是2019、2012、2022內部的"},{"start":200.922,"end":230.011,"text":"台電內部的土壤這個調查報告我手上有好幾份同樣的監測點有多次出現土壤重金屬污染但台電都對外隱瞞其中有一份我在環評開會2月26號的前一天我新聞我新聞到這個我新聞到環境部那當然環境部都還沒有大大剌剌的這個碾壓過去這是他們要負責的部分但是我請教你你有向台電要求看這幾份報告嗎"},{"start":231.189,"end":252.07,"text":"報告委員我是不是可以請完全還原事實的台電總經理跟你報告好嗎現在我只要問你我在總諮詢都提出這幾份報告而且是新的2019、2022我們台電的同仁願意來跟你講真正的事實嗎部長不然你想想看我下面這個部分好台電"},{"start":254.472,"end":255.513,"text":"您的簡報是顧問公司的不是我們台電接受的這是接避者給我的資料"},{"start":275.455,"end":283.198,"text":"這個台電利用所謂的自主調查它在正式的環評調查 自己先先偷做了現在我再看一個資料請你尊重我的發言權就是說12月的時候正式要做環評的檢測但是在9月就偷做了先自己所謂的你的自主性調查所以你們知道結果了在11月的時候你們內部的工作會議上面寫的什麼"},{"start":304.562,"end":314.748,"text":"超標濃度不高的你就翻土的方法處理翻一翻稀釋掉沒事好最嚴重的是下一個你已經知道很多污染點你採過59個點位也採樣過160幾個點位發現有污染的位置正式調查時可以移點避開再來採樣檢測天吶"},{"start":327.301,"end":353.712,"text":"天啊報告委員你是不是讓委員到你的辦公室給你做一個比較事實的給你報告因為很多的人其實他提出來給你的資料可能不過那麼詳實我們讓我們自己的單位跟你直接報告直接反映你的問題但是委員你都不接受我們的事實報告那你一直用你這個別人給你的資料不見得是正確的那你可以提來"},{"start":354.452,"end":365.021,"text":"我必須監督行政單位你看最後環評得到什麼資料所以我們已經有事實要跟你報告我已經告訴你2019、2012、2022我也找到內部的資料告訴我們你們處理了好 這一副資料是最後你們看到的資料這個你們最後看到什麼ND用一個點 一個點位採測"},{"start":376.091,"end":386.14,"text":"這個是根據他的法律的規定 我們這樣子做嘛我們是依法行事 報告委員 我們是依法行事所以你不能夠這樣子 你能不能看看TPH就是這個污染指標 重金屬 氮二辛 超標原動 灌紅色的字紅色的就是超標喔 大家在場大家都會看好 繼續看 你看"},{"start":400.515,"end":406.427,"text":"這個總時有天津化合物多入連本上一頁有多入連本逆都是超標的紅色好 再下一張"},{"start":408.219,"end":431.849,"text":"這個重金屬都是超標的這個都是你們的報告你們的報告這一份最後一頁部長這一部也是你們內部報告第三章污染污染細部調查結果你看倒數第二行還有多鹿連本都出現了在這剛剛我在第一頁的時候有告訴你多鹿連本有那麼毒的四季就多鹿連本都出現了"},{"start":433.411,"end":452.828,"text":"結果呢 協和電廠台電他的決定不是好好整治這個東西在規避 規避這個資料我們認為你現在所指責的這個部分可能都是有一些資訊上面不足的地方我們是不是可以拿真正的我們內部的地方到你的辦公室跟你做一個"},{"start":453.288,"end":470.875,"text":"我們來做行政調查 我們要求全面的報告但是你在這個地方指責我們的東西好像跟我們認知是有很大的差異跟事實有很大的差異在這裡我要跟您報告您的資料跟我們的事實有很大的差異"},{"start":472.52,"end":474.681,"text":"部長核心資料沒有給第六章空缺直接開會開會的時候環評是17比0通過環評法有環評法的程序又來了你說土屋法我告訴你第17條第二項很清楚你這個土屋法要開"},{"start":489.51,"end":495.355,"text":"要進行土地再利用的時候有一些限制凡是受到這個環評法規定有害明明就是扣連的明明就是扣連的法規不然為什麼世界環評委員要求看土壤的這個偵測報告為什麼第二階段的環評委員也是要求看如果不重要為什麼世界開發案要求看環評委員要求看資料結果你們隱瞞"},{"start":517.131,"end":526.609,"text":"是經濟部自己要求這樣做 還是台電自己做的我歡迎你到這個法院去提告這個是公開的事情是 歡迎你到法院去提告嘛"},{"start":527.472,"end":550.81,"text":"好不好 我跟你講說我們是事實要跟你報告你不接受那你用一個虛無的東西來指責我 我用虛無的東西部長你講話小心喔這是你們內部揭秘者 我們民眾團體所揭秘的保護法現在已經順利喔 你講的跟你所指責的部分是非常奇怪的事實啊我要跟你報告事實 你不接受那我怎麼 部長你的事實 我給的是證據我給的是書面報告 我給的是數字檢查我給的是檢驗數字 我有日期"},{"start":557.557,"end":578.483,"text":"你現在索賠說你有指控我這個是假的嗎不是我建議你如果你認為他是事實嘛我建議你到法院去提報我們來做行政辦你現在就要訴訟法我們要做行政調查卓院長已經親口在總執行答應我做這個行政調查你敢配合嗎我們當然配合好那我現在要求那個市街開發案的現場封閉不動我懷疑台電現在就在處理"},{"start":584.125,"end":600.912,"text":"他敢翻土他敢疑點他現在在處理中先封閉可以嗎封閉現場不動不要讓他有機會作弊可以嗎這小事啊報告委員可以吧可以吧我們都不需要依現在的法令行事我就是跟你談法我跟你談土無法我跟你談環評法"},{"start":603.148,"end":608.154,"text":"可以吧 你可以答應這件事吧現場開發案先封閉起來就跟命案一樣先封閉起來你就算做一個這麼大的開發案 你要讓人民服氣嘛這個資料是新發現資料 被隱藏的資料嘛"},{"start":618.527,"end":630.351,"text":"你講得非常正確所以我們在開發前一定會按照你所做的事情在處理好那先把這個場地封閉起來可以嗎讓他沒有機會作弊我們不能夠去封閉場地我們是根據什麼法去封閉這個場地啦"},{"start":634.54,"end":656.357,"text":"有問題我們有新市政啊不是 你要取 我可以依循的法給我做啊這是行政 行政這個根本不用依法你們暫停 因為有問題暫停不要讓排電人員進去這個不用動到法律麻煩你找到一個我可以做的法令給我我一定依據你所提出來的我來做嘛你從頭到尾都在講空話"},{"start":660.319,"end":682.057,"text":"不要 我沒有那個意思喔 我只是說請你告訴我們我們應該怎麼走但是必須要有法令的依據嘛是不是我們一直都是依法在行事嘛我就告訴你土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土"},{"start":688.619,"end":700.602,"text":"陳超市委員不好意思部長今天我今天開記者會你們台電不敢來經濟部不敢來環保局環保環境部來了為什麼歸縮不敢出現敢做不敢當敢做不敢當"},{"start":702.486,"end":721.229,"text":"不敢來啊不敢參加記者會啊不敢來啊不願意嗎不害怕嗎不敢嗎沒有這種規定說來就是敢來不敢來然後我想這個這個討論好像超過一般的大家的認知結果你們不出現現在你跟我說要依法我就是要告訴你法令啊"},{"start":721.738,"end":735.525,"text":"好 那如果說你可以說我今天哪一條法令說我們一定要配合去我們就會依法行事啦法令 依法人員的職責就可以監督行政機關啊這個法令就一直都存在啊部長 不要藐視國會 不要講空話我不可能藐視國會"},{"start":743.001,"end":754.708,"text":"我們也不會藐視國會我們都是在法令的法的基礎之下行事我們一定在法的基礎之下行事我們也不會藐視國會也不敢藐視國會"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1070,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（12時23分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，在正式進入今天的主題之前，我想請教你，您支持企業造假嗎？你直接回答。"],["郭部長智輝：我怎麼可能支持企業造假。"],["陳委員昭姿：好。我把「企業造假」這幾個字丟在Google裡面，我們可以看到很多東西，檢驗公司勾結營造商的驗收造假、台塑集團造假空污數據、檢測公司檢驗水產品造假，甚至部長也被指稱財報造假，所以我現在請教部長，您現在是在經濟部長這個位置，再問一次，您支持企業造假嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我剛才已經回答您的問題了嘛。"],["陳委員昭姿：好、好。部長，這是2019年8月報導者（The Reporter）的系列報導，環境檢測機構比起本身排放污染的工廠更容易被政府處罰，你看過這個報導嗎？你知道為什麼會這樣嗎？排放污染工廠、環境檢測機構，後者比較容易被處罰，部長，你知道為什麼嗎？我是建議你去看這個報導，你知道為什麼嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個不是經濟部所屬的範圍。"],["陳委員昭姿：這是一個概念，部長，因為環境檢測機構受業者委託，拿人的手短，吃人的嘴軟，所以它會幫業者去美化污染數據、躲避政府的稽查，結果他們本來應該是公正的檢測者，結果他們現在變成污染的遮羞布，所以為什麼當時環境部環境檢驗所去稽查的時候，很多檢查機構、檢測機構都被處罰了，為什麼業界會這樣呢？這普遍存在於業界，我必須說政府跟國營事業帶頭違法作假，要負起最大的責任。我先請問部長，假設國營事業造假，你會徹查嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：假設的問題我……"],["陳委員昭姿：假設、如果有人作假，你會去徹查嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我回答委員的問題，如果是事實，我支持你的檢舉……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，如果造假成立……"],["郭部長智輝：但是假設的問題，我不予評論。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你不要跟我玩話術，如果……"],["郭部長智輝：我們不能夠在這個地方討論假設的問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：如果真的出現造假……"],["郭部長智輝：如果委員認為它有造假，這個是事實……"],["陳委員昭姿：不是我認為！如果有證據……"],["郭部長智輝：請你去告它嘛！好不好？我們國內有法律的規範啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：我是問你國營事業造假，你辦不辦？"],["郭部長智輝：我這是依法辦理啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，不要提了。上週五我在總質詢公開向卓院長揭發台電協和電廠四接土壤污染事實造假，你當時也在備詢臺上，請問你後來有去瞭解這件事嗎？卓院長答應我做行政調查，你後來有去瞭解這件事嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我請台電或者國營事業去辦。"],["陳委員昭姿：你後來有去瞭解這件事嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然有去瞭解嘛！"],["陳委員昭姿：好，你有再去瞭解，你沒有藐視國會。簡報上是2019、2021、2022年台電內部的土壤調查報告，我手上有好幾份，同樣的監測點有多次出現土壤重金屬污染，但台電都對外隱瞞，其中有一份是我在環評開會2月26號的前一天，我行文到環境部，當然環境部在環評會大剌剌地輾壓過去，這是他們要負責的部分，但是我請教你，你有向台電要求看這幾份報告嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我是不是可以請完全還原事實的台電總經理跟你報告，好嗎？"],["陳委員昭姿：現在我只要問你，我在總質詢時提出這幾份報告，而且是新的，包括2019、2021、2022……"],["郭部長智輝：是，以我們所瞭解的程度，台電的同仁願意來跟你講真正的事實嘛。"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有，部長，不然你現在看我下面的這個部分。你看台電及泰興用「移點、翻土」，這是來自揭弊者給我的資料，右邊是內部工作的報告封面，左邊是建議跟結論，我就直接看好了，泰興工程……"],["郭部長智輝：您的這個簡報是顧問公司的，不是我們台電接受的。"],["陳委員昭姿：這是揭弊者給我的資料。台電利用所謂的自主調查，在正式的環評調查前，自己先偷做了……"],["郭部長智輝：是不是請揭弊者來這個地方講？"],["陳委員昭姿：現在先看這份資料，請你重視！請你尊重我的發言權！12月的時候，正式要做環評檢測，但是在9月就偷做了，先自己進行所謂的自主性調查，所以你們知道結果了，在11月的時候，你們內部的工作會議上面寫著：超標濃度不高的，就用翻土的方法處理，翻一翻、稀釋掉，沒事。最嚴重的是下一個，你已經知道有很多污染點，你採樣過59個點位，也採樣過一百六十幾個點位，發現有污染的位置，在正式調查時可以移點、避開，再來採樣檢測，天啊！天啊！這是內部資料，你聽完內部資料……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，是不是讓我們到你的辦公室跟你做一個比較事實的報告……"],["陳委員昭姿：我一連串告訴你，這就是為什麼……"],["郭部長智輝：因為很多的人，其實他提出來給你的資料可能不是那麼詳實，我們讓自己的單位跟你直接報告、直接還原問題嘛！"],["陳委員昭姿：這是你們的資料，我們要得很辛苦，後來你們也給了！"],["郭部長智輝：但是委員都不接受我們的事實報告，你一直用別人給你的資料，這不見得是正確的，然後你提來……"],["陳委員昭姿：你要拿去查啊！我必須監督行政單位。你看最後環評得到什麼資料？"],["郭部長智輝：我們已經有事實要跟你報告，你又不接受，這樣子的話，我也不知道怎麼做合理的討論啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：我已經告訴你有2019、2021、2022年的資料，我也找到內部的資料告訴我們，你們處理了。這一份是最後你們看到的資料，你們最後看到什麼？「N.D.」（not detectable），用一個點位採測，然後說沒事、沒事……"],["郭部長智輝：這是根據其法令的規定，我們這樣子做嘛！我們是依法行事。報告委員，我們是依法行事，所以你不能夠這樣子……"],["陳委員昭姿：不然你再來看下面的報告，你們看看污染指標TPH、重金屬、戴奧辛超標嚴重，即紅色的字……"],["郭部長智輝：你不能夠跳出法的規定來講這件事嘛。"],["陳委員昭姿：紅色的字就是超標喔！在場的大家都可以看到。繼續看，你看總石油碳氫化合物及多氯聯苯；多氯聯苯、鎳都是超標的，即紅色字；重金屬都是超標的，這個都是你們的報告，看這一份的最後一頁，部長，這也是你們內部報告，第3章土壤污染細部調查結果，你看倒數第二行，還有多氯聯苯都出現了，剛剛我在第一頁的時候有告訴你，多氯聯苯，那麼毒的世紀之毒都出現了，結果呢？協和電廠、台電，它的決定不是好好整治這個土地……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["陳委員昭姿：在規避這個資料。"],["郭部長智輝：我們認為你現在所指責的這個部分，可能都是有一些資訊上面不足的地方，我們是不是可以拿真正的我們內部的資料到你的辦公室跟你做一個……"],["陳委員昭姿：你可以做行政調查……"],["郭部長智輝：比較全面的報告……"],["陳委員昭姿：我們要求行政調查可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：但是你在這個地方，你現在在這邊指責我們的東西……"],["陳委員昭姿：環評當天、環評當天，我們覺得……"],["郭部長智輝：好像跟我們認知是有很大的差異，跟事實也有很大的差異。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，環評大會當天的程序……"],["郭部長智輝：在這裡我要跟您報告……"],["陳委員昭姿：漏掉了核心資料。"],["郭部長智輝：您的資料跟我們的事實有很大的差異。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，核心資料沒有給，第六章空缺，直接開會，開會的時候環評是17比0通過。"],["王總經理耀庭：報告委員，環評法有環評法的程序……"],["陳委員昭姿：又來了，你說土污法……"],["王總經理耀庭：土地污染法有土地污染法的程序……"],["陳委員昭姿：我告訴你，第十七條第二項很清楚……"],["王總經理耀庭：我們那天是在……"],["陳委員昭姿：你這個土污法要進行土地再利用就有一些限制，受到這個環評法規定有害……"],["王總經理耀庭：所以我們土地污染再利用的時候全面會檢測……"],["陳委員昭姿：明明就是扣連的，明明就是扣連的法規，不然為什麼……"],["王總經理耀庭：每一個時間點會做……不同的時間點做不同的事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：四接環評委員要求看土壤的偵測報告，為什麼第二階段的環評委員也是要求看，如果不重要，為什麼四接開發案環評委員要求看資料，結果你們隱瞞？是經濟部自己要求這樣做還是台電自己作主？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，如果您的認知是這樣子，我歡迎你到法院去提告。"],["陳委員昭姿：這個是公開的事情。"],["郭部長智輝：是，歡迎你到法院去提告嘛！好不好？我跟你講說我們有事實要跟你報告，你不接受，那你用一個虛無的東西來指責我……"],["陳委員昭姿：我用虛無的東西？部長你講話小心喔！這是你們內部揭弊者提供的，我們民眾黨提出揭弊者保護法，現在已經成立了……"],["郭部長智輝：你講的跟你所指責的部分是非常奇怪的事實，我要跟你報告事實，你不接受，那我怎麼跟你討論？"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我給的是證據、我給的是書面報告、我給的是數字檢查、我給的是檢驗數字，我有日期，你現在要指控我這個是假的嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，我建議你，如果你認為它是事實嘛，我建議你到法院去提告。"],["陳委員昭姿：你現在就要訴諸法律……我們要做行政調查，卓院長在總質詢已經親口答應我做行政調查，你敢配合嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然配合。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，那我現在要求四接開發案的現場封閉不動，我懷疑台電現在就在處理，它敢翻土、它敢移點，它現在在處理中，先封閉可以嗎？封閉現場，不動，不要讓它有機會作弊可以嗎？這小事啊！可以吧？可以吧？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們都必須要依現在的法令行事。"],["陳委員昭姿：我就是在跟你談法，我跟你談土污法，我跟你談環評法，可以吧？你可以答應這件事吧？開發案現場先封閉起來。"],["王總經理耀庭：開發前我們會做所有的土壤監測……"],["陳委員昭姿：就跟發生命案一樣先封閉起來，你就算做一個這麼大的開發案，你也要讓人民服氣嘛！這個資料是新發現資料、被隱藏的資料嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是，你講得非常正確，所以我們在開發前一定會按照你所說的事情在處理。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，那先把這個場地封閉起來，可以嗎？讓它沒有機會作弊，讓我們去作調查……"],["郭部長智輝：我們不能夠去封閉場地，我們是……報告委員……"],["陳委員昭姿：基隆市政府會去作調查，環境部會去監督。"],["郭部長智輝：我們是根據什麼法去封閉這個場地啦？"],["陳委員昭姿：有問題，我們有新事證啊！"],["郭部長智輝：不是，你要舉我可以依循的法給我做啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：這是行政，這個跟法……不用依法……"],["郭部長智輝：你沒有開一個法給我，我要怎麼做啦！"],["陳委員昭姿：你們的部分有問題，暫停，不要讓台電人員進去，這個不用動到法令。"],["郭部長智輝：麻煩你找到一個我可以做的法令給我，好不好？"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你很過分喔！你藐視國會喔！"],["郭部長智輝：我一定依據你所提出來的來做嘛！"],["陳委員昭姿：我提出那麼多資料給你，你從頭到尾都在講空話。"],["郭部長智輝：你不要，我沒有那個意思喔！我只是說請你告訴我們，我們應該怎麼走。"],["陳委員昭姿：我早就行文了。"],["郭部長智輝：但是必須要有法令的依據嘛！是不是？我們一直都是依法在行事嘛！"],["陳委員昭姿：我就告訴你土污法、環評法。"],["郭部長智輝：對，我知道……"],["陳委員昭姿：我給你資料、證據、我給你內部的證據……"],["郭部長智輝：但是我的意思就是說……"],["陳委員昭姿：你還在跟我空談。"],["郭部長智輝：你現在講說要我能夠控制……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長……"],["主席：好，陳昭姿委員……"],["陳委員昭姿：不好意思，部長……"],["主席：質詢結束了嗎？"],["陳委員昭姿：我今天開記者會，你們台電不敢來、經濟部不敢來，環境部來了，為什麼龜縮不敢出現、敢做不敢當？不敢來啊！不敢參加記者會啊！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有這種規定。"],["陳委員昭姿：不敢來啊！不願意嗎？不害怕嗎？不敢嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有這種規定說來就是敢來或是不敢來，然後我想這個討論好像有超過大家一般的認知啦！"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，這個邏輯讓大家聽一下，我提了這麼多證據，結果你們不出現，現在你跟我說要依法，我就是要告訴你法令啊！"],["郭部長智輝：好，如果您可以說我今天哪一條法令說我們一定要配合，我們就會依法行事啦！"],["陳委員昭姿：法令，立法委員的職責就可以監督行政機關啊！這個法令一直都存在啊！"],["郭部長智輝：是監督啊！但是沒有叫我們去啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，不要藐視國會、不要講空話。"],["郭部長智輝：我不可能藐視國會，我們也不會藐視國會。"],["陳委員昭姿：你講的都是空話，我給的都是證據，我今天給的都是證據……"],["郭部長智輝：我們都是在法令的、法的基礎之下行事……"],["陳委員昭姿：你們連記者會都不出席。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們一定在法的基礎之下行事，我們也不會藐視國會，也不敢藐視國會。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，我們後續來談法、我們後續來談法。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","我們現在請林月琴委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","賴士葆","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","郭國文","陳昭姿","林月琴","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","徐富癸","羅智強","陳超明","林德福","牛煦庭","蔡易餘"],"page_start":193,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00004"}}}