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00:00:58,814\n那第一個就是打破台電壟斷要促進市場的競爭第二個要促進綠能發展跟再生能源的一個並往那第三個部分要符合國際電力自由化的一個趨勢那第四個要提升電力系統的效率跟彈性那這四個當時產網分離的理由目前都還是我們在整個台電在發展過程當中的一個目標嗎這四個還是我們目前的目標嗎\n\n3\n00:01:00,345 --> 00:01:03,491\n報告委員我想現在的這個環境有所改變我是不是請這個委員長跟你做一個詳細報告\n\n4\n00:01:07,188 --> 00:01:32,877\n是的這個因為現在跟當年在106年的時候的環境是不一樣的那當時整個市場都是屬於台電公司一家公司那後來我們當時開放了綠電當時綠電只有4%那今年應該會到15%那未來會越來越多所以這個市場的綠電是越來越多反而現在是希望因為綠電本身不是太穩定反而是希望有一個穩定統一的\n\n5\n00:01:34,718 --> 00:01:51,308\nOK理解喔其實當時在2017年在修這個法的時候其實包括我們張立善委員當然張立善委員現在張立善縣長還有國民黨其實本來就主張其實不要拆分不要拆分那現在走了8年之後的時候又要回到原點\n\n6\n00:01:52,529 --> 00:02:12,408\n那我在想說那這過程當中到底這八年當中有哪些具體的一個變化那我們當然在認為說台電因為這個問題其實坦白說網路上面大家討論的也非常的多啦那很多他們就提出一個狀態就是說現在電業法又要修是不是因為當時要拆分的時候是因為台電很賺錢\n\n7\n00:02:13,709 --> 00:02:22,800\n那麼現在的時候呢連續三年下來的時候呢台電都持續的有虧損那現在的時候當然就不需要再拆分了\n\n8\n00:02:24,369 --> 00:02:49,575\n所以要再把它給回復到原本的一個狀態針對這樣子的網路上面很多民眾這樣的一個說法的時候部長可不可以簡單回答一下是報告委員我想這個您所指正的這個部分那台電分割是否我們在看這整個國際的趨勢都是往這個整合的這個方向在做曾經分割過的這個國家他們現在在整合我想剛才那個\n\n9\n00:02:52,495 --> 00:03:01,116\n剛才我們邱委員也有報告過我想國際趨勢已經開放自由競爭轉為強化管制的整合\n\n10\n00:03:01,889 --> 00:03:27,430\n第二個各國都採取提供補貼然後定價上限開增暴利稅等措施以確保電價的平穩那已經自由化的國家有修法整合及電力公司的管制案例譬如說英國2024年修法成立國營NASO整合電力調度電力系統天然氣跟氫CCUS的規劃\n\n11\n00:03:29,671 --> 00:03:48,280\n並將成立國有能源公司這個GVEnergy法國呢在2023年完成政府完全持股的EDF2024年修法明定EDF的資本百分之四百部長這個部分喔到時候你再提供給我就好因為你在講英國中英國在1990年代他也開始推動那個\n\n12\n00:03:49,020 --> 00:04:02,704\n電力自由化的部分他們也成立國家電網的公司然後負責出配電然後發電跟售電其實他們也是把它分開來所以它有各個不同的一個做法那我再特別提到說因為在2017年的時候坦白說當時國民黨團就是反對裁分的狀態\n\n13\n00:04:06,545 --> 00:04:28,059\n那現在8年之後走了一大堆之後然後能源政策沒有改變然後台電從獲利變成虧損的一個情況那我們認真的來看待這狀態的時候呢就覺得說好那現在說電業法它修到原本國民黨的主張我覺得我也沒有意見我也支持不要去拆分它因為我覺得也符合台電的一個具體的一個發展\n\n14\n00:04:28,479 --> 00:04:48,193\n也符合我們對於整個台灣電力供應的一個政策的一個期待那只是在這邊的時候我不得不再去特別提到一個狀態說因為你上來的時候你特別也提到說整個能源政策的一個相關的一個問題那我們在修電液法的時候對於能源政策這邊會不會做調整這邊可不可以請部長這邊做個政策性的一個說法\n\n15\n00:04:50,322 --> 00:05:10,139\n你說能源政策能源政策的部分因為我剛剛提到說比方說為什麼台電持續從獲利變成虧損我們認為它就是一個整個政策上面的一個問題因為政策上面的一個問題的時候呢然後讓我們整個台電的虧損增加台電虧損增加的時候就會出現狀態是第一政府補貼第一是漲電費那\n\n16\n00:05:12,561 --> 00:05:33,966\n企業民眾的成本他都持續增加可是當我們剛剛回到上一個部分就是說如果是漲電價的時候那民眾被撥撥一次皮那政府如果撥補的時候政府那個民眾還是被撥一次皮就間接的一個支出的方式那我們發現不管是怎麼樣子當電價漲的時候呢企業成本跟民眾的那個\n\n17\n00:05:35,046 --> 00:05:57,947\n成本都不斷的增加的時候然後物價上升然後再出現了一個台電還會持續的虧損那台電虧損之後的時候呢就會再出現一個狀態就是那我們要怎麼樣去解決這個問題那你一上來的時候你那時候也提到說那個自由化的一個部分電價在自由化的部分那現在四月份的時候我們馬上要碰到是不是要調整\n\n18\n00:05:58,987 --> 00:06:21,197\n電費的一個問題所以我剛剛這邊兩個問題第一個是針對於整個能源政策的部分那部長這邊會不會有一個在修電業法當中的時候同時也把能源政策做一個政策式的一個說明是不是會有所調整然後第二個部分的時候就是針對接下來的電費四月份的時候電費的時候是不是還會做調整\n\n19\n00:06:22,998 --> 00:06:41,169\n簡單報告這個委員我想這個能源政策的部分我們基本上是多元的這個能源都可以用那我想您剛才在談的這個核電的部分我想我們大家都很清楚三個原則這個安全然後核廢料可以處理第三個是這個\n\n20\n00:06:46,813 --> 00:07:15,052\n社會有共識那我想這個是我們的能源政策還是一樣如果這些都可以解決我們各種多元的能源都會使用那至於說四月份會不會調漲這個電價的部分我還是再次跟你報告電價的調漲是由電價審議委員會理解完全理解我最後再丟一個部分因為主席站起來我理解我最後再丟一個狀態就是因為之前你一直提到說那個有關於那個\n\n21\n00:07:16,753 --> 00:07:39,365\n台電的這個部分要如何讓它有效的經營那之前有一個台電購電損失兩百一十幾億會自己調降到九十二億你知道這個案子嗎就是台電跟IPP九家電購電的一個相關的一個合約問題這個部分我是不是請總經理再請總經理之後再到本辦公室做一個說明好不好好謝謝政委\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6574\t33800\t主席好我想請一下郭部長好請部長委員好部長好因為我們今天主席特別排的是電業法的一個修法那我想說電業法在2016年提出2017年修法的時候其實大概提出了四個主要的一個長網分離的一個理由\n34560\t58814\t那第一個就是打破台電壟斷 要促進市場的競爭第二個要促進綠能發展跟再生能源的一個並往那第三個部分要符合國際電力自由化的一個趨勢那第四個要提升電力系統的效率跟彈性那這四個當時產網分離的理由目前都還是我們在整個台電在發展過程當中的一個目標嗎這四個還是我們目前的目標嗎\n60345\t63491\t報告委員我想現在的這個環境有所改變我是不是請這個委員長跟你做一個詳細報告\n67188\t92877\t是的這個因為現在跟當年在106年的時候的環境是不一樣的那當時整個市場都是屬於台電公司一家公司那後來我們當時開放了綠電當時綠電只有4%那今年應該會到15%那未來會越來越多所以這個市場的綠電是越來越多反而現在是希望因為綠電本身不是太穩定反而是希望有一個穩定統一的\n94718\t111308\tOK 理解喔其實當時在2017年在修這個法的時候其實包括我們張立善委員當然張立善委員現在張立善縣長還有國民黨其實本來就主張其實不要拆分不要拆分那現在走了8年之後的時候又要回到原點\n112529\t132408\t那我在想說那這過程當中到底這八年當中有哪些具體的一個變化那我們當然在認為說台電因為這個問題其實坦白說網路上面大家討論的也非常的多啦那很多他們就提出一個狀態就是說現在電業法又要修是不是因為當時要拆分的時候是因為台電很賺錢\n133709\t142800\t那麼現在的時候呢連續三年下來的時候呢台電都持續的有虧損那現在的時候當然就不需要再拆分了\n144369\t169575\t所以要再把它給回復到原本的一個狀態針對這樣子的網路上面很多民眾這樣的一個說法的時候部長可不可以簡單回答一下是 報告委員我想這個您所指正的這個部分那台電分割是否我們在看這整個國際的趨勢都是往這個整合的這個方向在做曾經分割過的這個國家他們現在在整合我想剛才那個\n172495\t181116\t剛才我們邱委員也有報告過我想國際趨勢已經開放自由競爭轉為強化管制的整合\n181889\t207430\t第二個各國都採取提供補貼然後定價上限開增暴利稅等措施以確保電價的平穩那已經自由化的國家有修法整合及電力公司的管制案例譬如說英國2024年修法成立國營NASO整合電力調度電力系統天然氣跟氫CCUS的規劃\n209671\t228280\t並將成立國有能源公司這個GV Energy法國呢在2023年完成政府完全持股的EDF2024年修法明定EDF的資本百分之四百 部長這個部分喔到時候你再提供給我就好因為你在講英國中英國在1990年代他也開始推動那個\n229020\t242704\t電力自由化的部分他們也成立國家電網的公司然後負責出配電然後發電跟售電其實他們也是把它分開來所以它有各個不同的一個做法那我再特別提到說因為在2017年的時候坦白說當時國民黨團就是反對裁分的狀態\n246545\t268059\t那現在8年之後走了一大堆之後然後能源政策沒有改變然後台電從獲利變成虧損的一個情況那我們認真的來看待這狀態的時候呢就覺得說好那現在說電業法它修到原本國民黨的主張我覺得我也沒有意見我也支持不要去拆分它因為我覺得也符合台電的一個具體的一個發展\n268479\t288193\t也符合我們對於整個台灣電力供應的一個政策的一個期待那只是在這邊的時候我不得不再去特別提到一個狀態說因為你上來的時候你特別也提到說整個能源政策的一個相關的一個問題那我們在修電液法的時候對於能源政策這邊會不會做調整這邊可不可以請部長這邊做個政策性的一個說法\n290322\t310139\t你說能源政策能源政策的部分因為我剛剛提到說比方說為什麼台電持續從獲利變成虧損我們認為它就是一個整個政策上面的一個問題因為政策上面的一個問題的時候呢然後讓我們整個台電的虧損增加台電虧損增加的時候就會出現狀態是第一政府補貼 第一是漲電費那\n312561\t333966\t企業民眾的成本他都持續增加 可是當我們剛剛回到上一個部分就是說如果是漲電價的時候那民眾被撥 撥一次皮那政府如果撥補的時候 政府那個民眾還是被撥一次皮 就間接的一個支出的方式那我們發現不管是怎麼樣子 當電價漲的時候呢企業成本跟民眾的那個\n335046\t357947\t成本都不斷的增加的時候然後物價上升然後再出現了一個台電還會持續的虧損那台電虧損之後的時候呢就會再出現一個狀態就是那我們要怎麼樣去解決這個問題那你一上來的時候你那時候也提到說那個自由化的一個部分電價在自由化的部分那現在四月份的時候我們馬上要碰到是不是要調整\n358987\t381197\t電費的一個問題所以我剛剛這邊兩個問題第一個是針對於整個能源政策的部分那部長這邊會不會有一個在修電業法當中的時候同時也把能源政策做一個政策式的一個說明是不是會有所調整然後第二個部分的時候就是針對接下來的電費四月份的時候電費的時候是不是還會做調整\n382998\t401169\t簡單報告這個委員我想這個能源政策的部分我們基本上是多元的這個能源都可以用那我想您剛才在談的這個核電的部分我想我們大家都很清楚三個原則這個安全然後核廢料可以處理第三個是這個\n406813\t435052\t社會有共識那我想這個是我們的能源政策還是一樣如果這些都可以解決我們各種多元的能源都會使用那至於說四月份會不會調漲這個電價的部分我還是再次跟你報告電價的調漲是由電價審議委員會理解 完全理解我最後再丟一個部分因為主席站起來我理解我最後再丟一個狀態就是因為之前你一直提到說那個有關於那個\n436753\t459365\t台電的這個部分要如何讓它有效的經營那之前有一個台電購電損失兩百一十幾億會自己調降到九十二億你知道這個案子嗎就是台電跟IPP九家電購電的一個相關的一個合約問題這個部分我是不是請總經理再請總經理之後再到本辦公室做一個說明好不好好謝謝政委\n","txt":"主席好我想請一下郭部長好請部長委員好部長好因為我們今天主席特別排的是電業法的一個修法那我想說電業法在2016年提出2017年修法的時候其實大概提出了四個主要的一個長網分離的一個理由\n那第一個就是打破台電壟斷 要促進市場的競爭第二個要促進綠能發展跟再生能源的一個並往那第三個部分要符合國際電力自由化的一個趨勢那第四個要提升電力系統的效率跟彈性那這四個當時產網分離的理由目前都還是我們在整個台電在發展過程當中的一個目標嗎這四個還是我們目前的目標嗎\n報告委員我想現在的這個環境有所改變我是不是請這個委員長跟你做一個詳細報告\n是的這個因為現在跟當年在106年的時候的環境是不一樣的那當時整個市場都是屬於台電公司一家公司那後來我們當時開放了綠電當時綠電只有4%那今年應該會到15%那未來會越來越多所以這個市場的綠電是越來越多反而現在是希望因為綠電本身不是太穩定反而是希望有一個穩定統一的\nOK 理解喔其實當時在2017年在修這個法的時候其實包括我們張立善委員當然張立善委員現在張立善縣長還有國民黨其實本來就主張其實不要拆分不要拆分那現在走了8年之後的時候又要回到原點\n那我在想說那這過程當中到底這八年當中有哪些具體的一個變化那我們當然在認為說台電因為這個問題其實坦白說網路上面大家討論的也非常的多啦那很多他們就提出一個狀態就是說現在電業法又要修是不是因為當時要拆分的時候是因為台電很賺錢\n那麼現在的時候呢連續三年下來的時候呢台電都持續的有虧損那現在的時候當然就不需要再拆分了\n所以要再把它給回復到原本的一個狀態針對這樣子的網路上面很多民眾這樣的一個說法的時候部長可不可以簡單回答一下是 報告委員我想這個您所指正的這個部分那台電分割是否我們在看這整個國際的趨勢都是往這個整合的這個方向在做曾經分割過的這個國家他們現在在整合我想剛才那個\n剛才我們邱委員也有報告過我想國際趨勢已經開放自由競爭轉為強化管制的整合\n第二個各國都採取提供補貼然後定價上限開增暴利稅等措施以確保電價的平穩那已經自由化的國家有修法整合及電力公司的管制案例譬如說英國2024年修法成立國營NASO整合電力調度電力系統天然氣跟氫CCUS的規劃\n並將成立國有能源公司這個GV Energy法國呢在2023年完成政府完全持股的EDF2024年修法明定EDF的資本百分之四百 部長這個部分喔到時候你再提供給我就好因為你在講英國中英國在1990年代他也開始推動那個\n電力自由化的部分他們也成立國家電網的公司然後負責出配電然後發電跟售電其實他們也是把它分開來所以它有各個不同的一個做法那我再特別提到說因為在2017年的時候坦白說當時國民黨團就是反對裁分的狀態\n那現在8年之後走了一大堆之後然後能源政策沒有改變然後台電從獲利變成虧損的一個情況那我們認真的來看待這狀態的時候呢就覺得說好那現在說電業法它修到原本國民黨的主張我覺得我也沒有意見我也支持不要去拆分它因為我覺得也符合台電的一個具體的一個發展\n也符合我們對於整個台灣電力供應的一個政策的一個期待那只是在這邊的時候我不得不再去特別提到一個狀態說因為你上來的時候你特別也提到說整個能源政策的一個相關的一個問題那我們在修電液法的時候對於能源政策這邊會不會做調整這邊可不可以請部長這邊做個政策性的一個說法\n你說能源政策能源政策的部分因為我剛剛提到說比方說為什麼台電持續從獲利變成虧損我們認為它就是一個整個政策上面的一個問題因為政策上面的一個問題的時候呢然後讓我們整個台電的虧損增加台電虧損增加的時候就會出現狀態是第一政府補貼 第一是漲電費那\n企業民眾的成本他都持續增加 可是當我們剛剛回到上一個部分就是說如果是漲電價的時候那民眾被撥 撥一次皮那政府如果撥補的時候 政府那個民眾還是被撥一次皮 就間接的一個支出的方式那我們發現不管是怎麼樣子 當電價漲的時候呢企業成本跟民眾的那個\n成本都不斷的增加的時候然後物價上升然後再出現了一個台電還會持續的虧損那台電虧損之後的時候呢就會再出現一個狀態就是那我們要怎麼樣去解決這個問題那你一上來的時候你那時候也提到說那個自由化的一個部分電價在自由化的部分那現在四月份的時候我們馬上要碰到是不是要調整\n電費的一個問題所以我剛剛這邊兩個問題第一個是針對於整個能源政策的部分那部長這邊會不會有一個在修電業法當中的時候同時也把能源政策做一個政策式的一個說明是不是會有所調整然後第二個部分的時候就是針對接下來的電費四月份的時候電費的時候是不是還會做調整\n簡單報告這個委員我想這個能源政策的部分我們基本上是多元的這個能源都可以用那我想您剛才在談的這個核電的部分我想我們大家都很清楚三個原則這個安全然後核廢料可以處理第三個是這個\n社會有共識那我想這個是我們的能源政策還是一樣如果這些都可以解決我們各種多元的能源都會使用那至於說四月份會不會調漲這個電價的部分我還是再次跟你報告電價的調漲是由電價審議委員會理解 完全理解我最後再丟一個部分因為主席站起來我理解我最後再丟一個狀態就是因為之前你一直提到說那個有關於那個\n台電的這個部分要如何讓它有效的經營那之前有一個台電購電損失兩百一十幾億會自己調降到九十二億你知道這個案子嗎就是台電跟IPP九家電購電的一個相關的一個合約問題這個部分我是不是請總經理再請總經理之後再到本辦公室做一個說明好不好好謝謝政委\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.574 --> 00:33.800\n主席好我想請一下郭部長好請部長委員好部長好因為我們今天主席特別排的是電業法的一個修法那我想說電業法在2016年提出2017年修法的時候其實大概提出了四個主要的一個長網分離的一個理由\n\n00:34.560 --> 00:58.814\n那第一個就是打破台電壟斷要促進市場的競爭第二個要促進綠能發展跟再生能源的一個並往那第三個部分要符合國際電力自由化的一個趨勢那第四個要提升電力系統的效率跟彈性那這四個當時產網分離的理由目前都還是我們在整個台電在發展過程當中的一個目標嗎這四個還是我們目前的目標嗎\n\n01:00.345 --> 01:03.491\n報告委員我想現在的這個環境有所改變我是不是請這個委員長跟你做一個詳細報告\n\n01:07.188 --> 01:32.877\n是的這個因為現在跟當年在106年的時候的環境是不一樣的那當時整個市場都是屬於台電公司一家公司那後來我們當時開放了綠電當時綠電只有4%那今年應該會到15%那未來會越來越多所以這個市場的綠電是越來越多反而現在是希望因為綠電本身不是太穩定反而是希望有一個穩定統一的\n\n01:34.718 --> 01:51.308\nOK理解喔其實當時在2017年在修這個法的時候其實包括我們張立善委員當然張立善委員現在張立善縣長還有國民黨其實本來就主張其實不要拆分不要拆分那現在走了8年之後的時候又要回到原點\n\n01:52.529 --> 02:12.408\n那我在想說那這過程當中到底這八年當中有哪些具體的一個變化那我們當然在認為說台電因為這個問題其實坦白說網路上面大家討論的也非常的多啦那很多他們就提出一個狀態就是說現在電業法又要修是不是因為當時要拆分的時候是因為台電很賺錢\n\n02:13.709 --> 02:22.800\n那麼現在的時候呢連續三年下來的時候呢台電都持續的有虧損那現在的時候當然就不需要再拆分了\n\n02:24.369 --> 02:49.575\n所以要再把它給回復到原本的一個狀態針對這樣子的網路上面很多民眾這樣的一個說法的時候部長可不可以簡單回答一下是報告委員我想這個您所指正的這個部分那台電分割是否我們在看這整個國際的趨勢都是往這個整合的這個方向在做曾經分割過的這個國家他們現在在整合我想剛才那個\n\n02:52.495 --> 03:01.116\n剛才我們邱委員也有報告過我想國際趨勢已經開放自由競爭轉為強化管制的整合\n\n03:01.889 --> 03:27.430\n第二個各國都採取提供補貼然後定價上限開增暴利稅等措施以確保電價的平穩那已經自由化的國家有修法整合及電力公司的管制案例譬如說英國2024年修法成立國營NASO整合電力調度電力系統天然氣跟氫CCUS的規劃\n\n03:29.671 --> 03:48.280\n並將成立國有能源公司這個GVEnergy法國呢在2023年完成政府完全持股的EDF2024年修法明定EDF的資本百分之四百部長這個部分喔到時候你再提供給我就好因為你在講英國中英國在1990年代他也開始推動那個\n\n03:49.020 --> 04:02.704\n電力自由化的部分他們也成立國家電網的公司然後負責出配電然後發電跟售電其實他們也是把它分開來所以它有各個不同的一個做法那我再特別提到說因為在2017年的時候坦白說當時國民黨團就是反對裁分的狀態\n\n04:06.545 --> 04:28.059\n那現在8年之後走了一大堆之後然後能源政策沒有改變然後台電從獲利變成虧損的一個情況那我們認真的來看待這狀態的時候呢就覺得說好那現在說電業法它修到原本國民黨的主張我覺得我也沒有意見我也支持不要去拆分它因為我覺得也符合台電的一個具體的一個發展\n\n04:28.479 --> 04:48.193\n也符合我們對於整個台灣電力供應的一個政策的一個期待那只是在這邊的時候我不得不再去特別提到一個狀態說因為你上來的時候你特別也提到說整個能源政策的一個相關的一個問題那我們在修電液法的時候對於能源政策這邊會不會做調整這邊可不可以請部長這邊做個政策性的一個說法\n\n04:50.322 --> 05:10.139\n你說能源政策能源政策的部分因為我剛剛提到說比方說為什麼台電持續從獲利變成虧損我們認為它就是一個整個政策上面的一個問題因為政策上面的一個問題的時候呢然後讓我們整個台電的虧損增加台電虧損增加的時候就會出現狀態是第一政府補貼第一是漲電費那\n\n05:12.561 --> 05:33.966\n企業民眾的成本他都持續增加可是當我們剛剛回到上一個部分就是說如果是漲電價的時候那民眾被撥撥一次皮那政府如果撥補的時候政府那個民眾還是被撥一次皮就間接的一個支出的方式那我們發現不管是怎麼樣子當電價漲的時候呢企業成本跟民眾的那個\n\n05:35.046 --> 05:57.947\n成本都不斷的增加的時候然後物價上升然後再出現了一個台電還會持續的虧損那台電虧損之後的時候呢就會再出現一個狀態就是那我們要怎麼樣去解決這個問題那你一上來的時候你那時候也提到說那個自由化的一個部分電價在自由化的部分那現在四月份的時候我們馬上要碰到是不是要調整\n\n05:58.987 --> 06:21.197\n電費的一個問題所以我剛剛這邊兩個問題第一個是針對於整個能源政策的部分那部長這邊會不會有一個在修電業法當中的時候同時也把能源政策做一個政策式的一個說明是不是會有所調整然後第二個部分的時候就是針對接下來的電費四月份的時候電費的時候是不是還會做調整\n\n06:22.998 --> 06:41.169\n簡單報告這個委員我想這個能源政策的部分我們基本上是多元的這個能源都可以用那我想您剛才在談的這個核電的部分我想我們大家都很清楚三個原則這個安全然後核廢料可以處理第三個是這個\n\n06:46.813 --> 07:15.052\n社會有共識那我想這個是我們的能源政策還是一樣如果這些都可以解決我們各種多元的能源都會使用那至於說四月份會不會調漲這個電價的部分我還是再次跟你報告電價的調漲是由電價審議委員會理解完全理解我最後再丟一個部分因為主席站起來我理解我最後再丟一個狀態就是因為之前你一直提到說那個有關於那個\n\n07:16.753 --> 07:39.365\n台電的這個部分要如何讓它有效的經營那之前有一個台電購電損失兩百一十幾億會自己調降到九十二億你知道這個案子嗎就是台電跟IPP九家電購電的一個相關的一個合約問題這個部分我是不是請總經理再請總經理之後再到本辦公室做一個說明好不好好謝謝政委\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.574,"end":33.8,"text":"主席好我想請一下郭部長好請部長委員好部長好因為我們今天主席特別排的是電業法的一個修法那我想說電業法在2016年提出2017年修法的時候其實大概提出了四個主要的一個長網分離的一個理由"},{"start":34.56,"end":58.814,"text":"那第一個就是打破台電壟斷 要促進市場的競爭第二個要促進綠能發展跟再生能源的一個並往那第三個部分要符合國際電力自由化的一個趨勢那第四個要提升電力系統的效率跟彈性那這四個當時產網分離的理由目前都還是我們在整個台電在發展過程當中的一個目標嗎這四個還是我們目前的目標嗎"},{"start":60.345,"end":63.491,"text":"報告委員我想現在的這個環境有所改變我是不是請這個委員長跟你做一個詳細報告"},{"start":67.188,"end":92.877,"text":"是的這個因為現在跟當年在106年的時候的環境是不一樣的那當時整個市場都是屬於台電公司一家公司那後來我們當時開放了綠電當時綠電只有4%那今年應該會到15%那未來會越來越多所以這個市場的綠電是越來越多反而現在是希望因為綠電本身不是太穩定反而是希望有一個穩定統一的"},{"start":94.718,"end":111.308,"text":"OK 理解喔其實當時在2017年在修這個法的時候其實包括我們張立善委員當然張立善委員現在張立善縣長還有國民黨其實本來就主張其實不要拆分不要拆分那現在走了8年之後的時候又要回到原點"},{"start":112.529,"end":132.408,"text":"那我在想說那這過程當中到底這八年當中有哪些具體的一個變化那我們當然在認為說台電因為這個問題其實坦白說網路上面大家討論的也非常的多啦那很多他們就提出一個狀態就是說現在電業法又要修是不是因為當時要拆分的時候是因為台電很賺錢"},{"start":133.709,"end":142.8,"text":"那麼現在的時候呢連續三年下來的時候呢台電都持續的有虧損那現在的時候當然就不需要再拆分了"},{"start":144.369,"end":169.575,"text":"所以要再把它給回復到原本的一個狀態針對這樣子的網路上面很多民眾這樣的一個說法的時候部長可不可以簡單回答一下是 報告委員我想這個您所指正的這個部分那台電分割是否我們在看這整個國際的趨勢都是往這個整合的這個方向在做曾經分割過的這個國家他們現在在整合我想剛才那個"},{"start":172.495,"end":181.116,"text":"剛才我們邱委員也有報告過我想國際趨勢已經開放自由競爭轉為強化管制的整合"},{"start":181.889,"end":207.43,"text":"第二個各國都採取提供補貼然後定價上限開增暴利稅等措施以確保電價的平穩那已經自由化的國家有修法整合及電力公司的管制案例譬如說英國2024年修法成立國營NASO整合電力調度電力系統天然氣跟氫CCUS的規劃"},{"start":209.671,"end":228.28,"text":"並將成立國有能源公司這個GV Energy法國呢在2023年完成政府完全持股的EDF2024年修法明定EDF的資本百分之四百 部長這個部分喔到時候你再提供給我就好因為你在講英國中英國在1990年代他也開始推動那個"},{"start":229.02,"end":242.704,"text":"電力自由化的部分他們也成立國家電網的公司然後負責出配電然後發電跟售電其實他們也是把它分開來所以它有各個不同的一個做法那我再特別提到說因為在2017年的時候坦白說當時國民黨團就是反對裁分的狀態"},{"start":246.545,"end":268.059,"text":"那現在8年之後走了一大堆之後然後能源政策沒有改變然後台電從獲利變成虧損的一個情況那我們認真的來看待這狀態的時候呢就覺得說好那現在說電業法它修到原本國民黨的主張我覺得我也沒有意見我也支持不要去拆分它因為我覺得也符合台電的一個具體的一個發展"},{"start":268.479,"end":288.193,"text":"也符合我們對於整個台灣電力供應的一個政策的一個期待那只是在這邊的時候我不得不再去特別提到一個狀態說因為你上來的時候你特別也提到說整個能源政策的一個相關的一個問題那我們在修電液法的時候對於能源政策這邊會不會做調整這邊可不可以請部長這邊做個政策性的一個說法"},{"start":290.322,"end":310.139,"text":"你說能源政策能源政策的部分因為我剛剛提到說比方說為什麼台電持續從獲利變成虧損我們認為它就是一個整個政策上面的一個問題因為政策上面的一個問題的時候呢然後讓我們整個台電的虧損增加台電虧損增加的時候就會出現狀態是第一政府補貼 第一是漲電費那"},{"start":312.561,"end":333.966,"text":"企業民眾的成本他都持續增加 可是當我們剛剛回到上一個部分就是說如果是漲電價的時候那民眾被撥 撥一次皮那政府如果撥補的時候 政府那個民眾還是被撥一次皮 就間接的一個支出的方式那我們發現不管是怎麼樣子 當電價漲的時候呢企業成本跟民眾的那個"},{"start":335.046,"end":357.947,"text":"成本都不斷的增加的時候然後物價上升然後再出現了一個台電還會持續的虧損那台電虧損之後的時候呢就會再出現一個狀態就是那我們要怎麼樣去解決這個問題那你一上來的時候你那時候也提到說那個自由化的一個部分電價在自由化的部分那現在四月份的時候我們馬上要碰到是不是要調整"},{"start":358.987,"end":381.197,"text":"電費的一個問題所以我剛剛這邊兩個問題第一個是針對於整個能源政策的部分那部長這邊會不會有一個在修電業法當中的時候同時也把能源政策做一個政策式的一個說明是不是會有所調整然後第二個部分的時候就是針對接下來的電費四月份的時候電費的時候是不是還會做調整"},{"start":382.998,"end":401.169,"text":"簡單報告這個委員我想這個能源政策的部分我們基本上是多元的這個能源都可以用那我想您剛才在談的這個核電的部分我想我們大家都很清楚三個原則這個安全然後核廢料可以處理第三個是這個"},{"start":406.813,"end":435.052,"text":"社會有共識那我想這個是我們的能源政策還是一樣如果這些都可以解決我們各種多元的能源都會使用那至於說四月份會不會調漲這個電價的部分我還是再次跟你報告電價的調漲是由電價審議委員會理解 完全理解我最後再丟一個部分因為主席站起來我理解我最後再丟一個狀態就是因為之前你一直提到說那個有關於那個"},{"start":436.753,"end":459.365,"text":"台電的這個部分要如何讓它有效的經營那之前有一個台電購電損失兩百一十幾億會自己調降到九十二億你知道這個案子嗎就是台電跟IPP九家電購電的一個相關的一個合約問題這個部分我是不是請總經理再請總經理之後再到本辦公室做一個說明好不好好謝謝政委"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":115,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（9時22分）主席好。我想請教郭部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長好。今天主席特別安排電業法的修法，電業法在2017年修法的時候，大概提出了四個廠網分離的主要理由：第一個是打破台電壟斷，促進市場的競爭。第二個是促進綠能發展與再生能源的併網。第三個是要符合國際電力自由化的趨勢。第四個是要提升電力系統的效率與彈性。請問當時這四個廠網分離的理由，目前都還是台電整個發展過程當中的目標嗎？這四個還是目前的目標嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想現在的環境有所改變，我是不是請能源署署長來跟你做詳細報告？"],["鄭委員正鈐：好。"],["李代理署長君禮：因為現在跟當初106年的環境是不一樣的，當時整個市場都是屬於台電公司一家公司，後來我們開放了綠電，當時綠電只有4%，今年應該會到15%，未來會越來越多，所以這個市場的綠電是越來越多。因為綠電本身不是太穩定，反而是希望有一個穩定、統一的電業來維持市場的穩定。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，其實2017年修法的時候，包括張麗善委員……當然現在張麗善是縣長，還有國民黨本來就主張不要拆分，現在走了8年之後又要回到原點，在這個過程當中，到底這8年當中有哪些具體的變化？坦白說，這個問題在網路上大家的討論也非常的多，他們提出一個狀態說現在電業法又要修，是不是因為當初要拆分的時候台電很賺錢，而最近連續三年下來台電都是持續虧損，所以現在當然就不需要拆分了，也因此要再把它回復到原本的狀態，針對網路上很多民眾這樣子的說法，部長可不可以簡單回答一下？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，針對您所指正的這個部分，台電分割是否……我們在看整個國際的趨勢都是往整合的方向在做，曾經分割過的國家，他們現在也在整合。剛才邱委員也有報告過，國際趨勢已經從開放自由競爭轉為強化管制的整合。第二個，各國都採取提供補貼、定價上限、開徵暴利稅等措施，以確保電價平穩，已經自由化的國家有修法整合及電力公司的管制案例，譬如英國2024年修法成立國營NESO整合電力調度、電力系統、天然氣跟氫CCUS的規劃，並將成立國有能源公司（GB Energy）；法國在2023年完成政府完全持股的EDF，2024年修法明定EDF的資本百分之百國營。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，這個部分到時候你再提供資料給我就好。你剛才講到英國，英國在1990年代也開始推動電力自由化，他們也成立國家電網公司負責輸配電，然後發電和售電他們也是把它分開來，所以它有各個不同的作法。本席想要特別提到的是在2017年的時候，坦白說，當時國民黨團就是反對拆分的狀態，如今8年走了一大段之後，我們的能源政策沒有改變，結果台電從獲利變成虧損的情況。我們認真來看待這個狀態的時候，就會覺得現在修電業法是修到原本國民黨的主張，我覺得我也沒有意見，其實我也支持不要去拆分它，我覺得這樣不只符合台電具體的發展，也符合我們對於臺灣整個電力供應政策的期待。只是我不得不特別提到一個狀態，因為你上來的時候，你也特別提到整個能源政策的相關問題，我們在修電業法的時候，對於能源政策會不會調整，可不可以請部長提出一個政策性的說法？"],["郭部長智輝：你說能源政策嗎？"],["鄭委員正鈐：能源政策的部分，因為我剛剛提到為什麼台電會持續從獲利變成虧損，我們認為它就是整個政策上面的問題，因為政策上面的問題讓台電的虧損增加，台電虧損增加的時候會出現的狀態，第一個是政府補貼，第二個是漲電費，包括企業和民眾的成本都持續增加。我們回到上一個部分，如果是漲電價的話，民眾被剝一次皮；如果是政府撥補的話，民眾還是被剝一次皮，只是用間接支出的方式。我們發現不管怎麼樣，當電價調漲，企業的成本和民眾的成本都不斷增加的時候，物價就會上升，然後再出現台電還會持續的虧損，台電虧損之後就會再出現一個狀態……我們要怎麼解決這個問題？你一上來的時候也提到電價自由化的部分，4月份馬上就要碰到是不是要調整電費的問題，所以我剛剛提出兩個問題：第一個是針對整個能源政策的部分，當我們在修電業法的時候，部長是不是也能同時針對能源政策做一個政策性的說明是不是會有所調整？第二個就是針對4月份的時候，電費是不是還會調整？"],["郭部長智輝：簡單報告委員，關於能源政策的部分，基本上是多元的能源都可以用，有關您剛才在談的核電部分，我想大家都很清楚三個原則，包括安全及核廢料可以處理，第三個則是社會有共識。我們的能源政策還是一樣，如果這些都可以解決，各種多元的能源都會使用。","至於4月份會不會調漲電價的部分，我還是再次跟您報告，電價的調漲是由電價審議委員會來決定，我們會尊重他們的決定來處理。"],["鄭委員正鈐：完全理解，我最後再丟一個狀態，因為之前你一直提到台電要如何讓它有效的經營，之前台電購電損失二百一十幾億，後來自己調降到92億，你知道這個案子嗎？就是台電跟九家IPP購電的相關合約問題。"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分我是不是請總經理跟您說明？"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，再請總經理之後到本席辦公室說明，好不好？"],["王總經理耀庭：是。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員。我們等一下會處理條文，大家還是可以充分發言。","現在請邱議瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-4","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","陳超明","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","陳培瑜","黃國昌","葉元之","林德福","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、行政院函請審議「電業法部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員賴士葆等 17 人擬具\n「電業法第七十四條條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員林岱樺等18人擬具「電業法第六條條文修\n正草案」案；四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「電業法第六條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員\n邱議瑩等16人擬具「電業法第六條條文修正草案」案；六、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「電業法\n部分條文修正草案」案；七、本院委員鄭正鈐等19人擬具「電業法第七十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1143101_00001"}}}