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\"部\", \"start\": 702.164, \"end\": 702.304, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 702.304, \"end\": 702.404, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 702.404, \"end\": 702.444, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"蘇\"}, {\"word\": \"曉\"}, {\"word\": \"慧\", \"start\": 702.444, \"end\": 702.584, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 702.584, \"end\": 702.764, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 702.764, \"end\": 702.884, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 702.884, \"end\": 702.944, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 702.944, \"end\": 703.204, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 703.204, \"end\": 703.244, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"張\"}, {\"word\": \"志\", \"start\": 703.244, \"end\": 703.364, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"倫\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 703.364, \"end\": 703.384, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,831 --> 00:00:06,545\n好謝謝主席我們請劉世芳劉部長劉部長有請\n\n2\n00:00:14,662 --> 00:00:34,449\n部長好部長我想我們今天討論的這個題目租屋市場的透明化其實是非常非常多國人尤其是年輕族群關心那租屋市場到底應不應該透明化我們當然是持肯定的態度應該要為什麼呢因為它會促進房價的公平性和合理性我想部長應該也認同這個方向應該是沒有問題吧方向沒有問題\n\n3\n00:00:39,751 --> 00:00:52,584\n我們來看看實際上這幾年政府做的狀況有沒有改善我們用這三年的租賃住宅的有效契約數被公開也就是透明化的數字來看很明顯的從2022年底我們有掌握的公開的是40萬一直到去年2024的年底已經到了72萬件這樣子的成長幅度不可謂不大\n\n4\n00:01:02,273 --> 00:01:14,772\n所以表示我們在推動的政策確實是有效度的我想這個也應該給內政部辛苦的同仁相關業務的同仁一個值得掌聲一下那我們接著就來看72萬戶72萬件\n\n5\n00:01:19,056 --> 00:01:28,100\n到底還值不值得應該繼續往上推呢最有效的政策是什麼呢我們看到剛剛72萬件其實主要是來自於從2021年我們修正了不動產經濟業的管理條例24-1條在只要你的租賃是透過不動產經濟業去處理的那是強制百分之百公開所以這邊就有3萬多件好\n\n6\n00:01:43,206 --> 00:02:02,372\n那後面我們就繼續推動了租屋補貼政策和包租代管政策尤其是這個租屋補貼政策讓大家把整個的租屋市場哇真的真正的都公開透明化起來這是一個最有效度的政策這樣看起來所以你看看我們如果以全國和各縣市這樣數字來看的話其實剛剛說的72萬件裡面\n\n7\n00:02:07,113 --> 00:02:35,877\n這個數字其實在這裡小小的岔題一下其實內政部你們有很多不同的統計方式對數字差異不大但是各種不同標準看起來就是會有一點點的落差所以我也很難說要用哪一個那現在我們用這個你們自己提供的這樣租賃住宅有效契約涵蓋率來講的話全國已經到達了75%可是你看其他六都來講以雙北是明顯低於全國的涵蓋率你全國的\n\n8\n00:02:36,417 --> 00:02:50,888\n有75%公布了可是雙北一個是五成一個是六成部長你怎麼看這樣的現象因為雙北反而是租賃市場最大的地方啊它不是最應該要被公開這樣才能表示達到我們的政策嗎部長你怎麼看這題\n\n9\n00:02:52,168 --> 00:03:11,403\n是的我想非常謝謝委員的關心我想重點是在於說我們能夠掌握到可以讓我們來做這個統計數據的分析是來自於我們的租金補貼的部分那是最有效的政策啦他的掌握度不高大概在於就私人呢他比較不願意提供有關租金沒有沒有我現在的問題是為什麼雙北比較低\n\n10\n00:03:13,004 --> 00:03:17,709\n其實就租金補貼來講雙北因為大概在符合的這個比例上來講是相對比較低大概以學生為主因為租金補貼他也有一個薪資上限\n\n11\n00:03:32,463 --> 00:03:43,835\n他一個薪資上限那所以在這樣的狀況下其實在目前來講全國會申請率最高會是在桃園跟台中也是因為桃園這邊的比例甚至超過100欸對對對所以他的數據會來自於是說因為珠普的話\n\n12\n00:03:49,781 --> 00:04:08,947\n他有一個薪資上限所以以現在所收到的這樣的一個案件來講其實桃園跟台中的比例會是最高你看一下這個表單這個表格它是租賃住宅的有效契約它不是單純的租金補貼而已喔所以您剛剛的回答稍微有一點偏差公委員\n\n13\n00:04:12,895 --> 00:04:33,105\n百分之百是因為我們用主計總數的統計資料全國有87萬戶那如果加計在外租屋的部分有22萬戶的話大概會有110萬戶所以那個租金是以87萬戶來做統計你看我剛剛從一開始到現在我其實是在跟你順一個邏輯我的邏輯是租賃市場要不要公開透明化要\n\n14\n00:04:33,965 --> 00:04:41,856\n那全國有沒有進步有最有效達成這個成功率的政策是什麼看起來是租金補貼那雙北為什麼是最低所以我們一層一層我們要解決問題就是要先找出問題真正的問題在哪裡所以我剛剛是在跟你說雙北為什麼最低\n\n15\n00:04:50,768 --> 00:05:18,203\n好你看起來還沒有抱得非常具體的回答我但你也切到一個邊你插到一個邊說最有效的租金補貼的政策反而在雙北可能不見得那麼能夠有效度執行因為學生居多好這個就是爭點一了嘛那我覺得這很值得探討應該可以再被討論因為學生市場學生的租屋市場反而是最應該要有公開透明資料的嘛這是其一嘛好那第二順著我接下來我要討論的\n\n16\n00:05:19,484 --> 00:05:47,822\n我继续跟你讨论为什么这个租金租屋补贴的部分租屋补贴的部分既然它是最有效的我们回到刚刚那个圆饼图的部分好了租屋补贴既然是最能够达成租屋市场公开透明化的政策那我们要怎么把它加强我上个会期就已经咨询过了不外乎棒子跟胡萝卜胡萝卜的部分我们来看看来署长和部长看一下这个公益出租人租税优惠\n\n17\n00:05:49,944 --> 00:06:17,361\n稅付優惠其實就是我們提供給這個租屋補貼的政策嘛讓房東願意願意加入這個政策坦白講每個人都是要看利益利德嘛所以當我們讓他當他成為公益出租人的時候我們把他的稅付下降他覺得欸加入這個計畫對我也不錯啊不是只有房客拿到了補貼是有房東的稅付也可以減少那我當然也願意加入這個同意吧沒有問題吧\n\n18\n00:06:19,125 --> 00:06:34,698\n沒有人回答我們是不是可以請財政部來回應這個問題那剛剛統計不是啦我現在在討論內政部的政策嘛那我是請我們那個處長跟您回應一下統計的部分好嗎我只要回答這個單純的部分部長沒有關係啦您直接回答會署長回答也沒有關係啦\n\n19\n00:06:36,345 --> 00:06:50,953\n讓公益出租人覺得自己有利可得所以願意加入這個政策沒有問題嘛對不對好那我們現在來看公益出租人得到的稅負優惠會有哪一些其實你也列得很清楚了嘛綜合所得稅房屋稅和地價稅請問內政部或財政部有沒有統計過\n\n20\n00:06:56,616 --> 00:07:20,163\n他所減少的稅負和他如果加入這個政策被政府知道他有這麼多的房屋在出租的時候他的所得稅增加這兩件比較起來他是多還是少他的總收入到底是多還是少有沒有做過這個統計這個就可以財政部啦內政部他們從來沒有給你資料嘛對不對財政部沒有給你這個資料嘛財政部你們有做過這個統計嗎\n\n21\n00:07:22,535 --> 00:07:40,137\n跟委員報告這個他可以想租稅優惠但是我們另外一個規定說這個資料我們不會作為查稅的依據所以我們不會去追他以前的稅你要不要針對我的問題回答我的問題是問你公益出軍人在這一屆租金補貼的案件當中他得到的稅負優惠和和\n\n22\n00:07:42,199 --> 00:08:07,568\n他因為房子這麼多出租了被政府知道以後他的所得增加以後要繳納的所得稅負這兩者一出一進之間比較起來他到底是有失還是有得你們有沒有做過比較嘛我們目前沒有這個統計那你覺不覺得這才是真正關鍵的原因嘛你這邊看起來讓他降稅了可是事實上他因為被知道房子多了所以所以\n\n23\n00:08:08,368 --> 00:08:35,168\n他最後比較起來總收入還是增加所以他當然覺得這個案子對我無利可圖我就不參加了嘛這才是我們今天公益出租人為什麼不參加租金補貼計畫最大的原因啊就是你的胡蘿蔔不是真正的胡蘿蔔嘛這是第一個嘛好來那第二個我們來看棒子的部分來棒子的部分內政部房東不擇禁止房客申請租金補貼我非常同意\n\n24\n00:08:35,868 --> 00:09:01,234\n有了胡蘿蔔就應該有棒子來我們來看內政部其實你們在111年的時候就已經說了不但房客房東如果禁止房客不得申請的時候房客可以拒絕及主張無效而且如果房東進而要要求漲租或負擔所得增加稅負的時候房客可以向政府提出申訴要求改正如果不改正可處3萬至30萬元罰款\n\n25\n00:09:03,294 --> 00:09:16,989\n人具不改正者可加重處五至五十萬法案並得按次處罰我想請問內政部從實施到現在有多少人來申訴你們裁罰了多少件有統計數字嗎\n\n26\n00:09:19,592 --> 00:09:35,629\n有關於違反這個規定的部分我們現在沒有統計數據為什麼沒有統計數據因為那個在地方不過我們有統計每年的租金的一個有關租屋糾紛大概有2700多件你沒有統計數據你怎麼知道你這個政策是有沒有效度的\n\n27\n00:09:36,704 --> 00:09:52,081\n我要求應該要有統計數據啊不然你訂這個規定是什麼回事呢所以我今天在跟你談論的就是這樣的兩個點好我們再重申一次整個的邏輯整個的邏輯就是我們認為租屋市場應該要透明化\n\n28\n00:09:52,722 --> 00:10:20,396\n租金普天達成了租金市場透明化非常有功效而且社會大眾都喜歡都滿意現在也已經到達了一個高比率很可惜還有一點點落差所以我們希望胡蘿蔔成為真正的胡蘿蔔財政部應該要就關於出租人的所得到底能夠得到多少的優惠提出具體的數字來看看我們現在的租稅優惠是否適合\n\n29\n00:10:21,477 --> 00:10:36,571\n棒子的部分也就是內政部對你自己提出的這樣的裁罰應該要做出統計數字並且繼續追蹤讓棒子跟胡蘿蔔都是有效度的讓租金補貼政策可以持續進行並且提高這樣同意吧\n\n30\n00:10:37,812 --> 00:10:50,074\n部長這樣不好意思麻煩承諾一下我們會跟財政部一起來努力不管是胡蘿蔔棒子的部分但是在執行層面上面我們也需要考慮到說是民法契約上面的規範完全同意所以我同意部長這個方向所以我也認為不應該直接修法變成是所有的租賃契約通通強制我不認為應該要這樣做因為它每個地區有不一樣的狀況\n\n31\n00:11:03,857 --> 00:11:29,199\n而且說實在的我們其實租賃市場也不需要到達百分之百全面透明我們要的是一個公平合理的房價資訊所以到一定程度其實就已經可以掌握市場的狀況我認為還是應該保有自由溢價的空間只要它在合理公平性這個是可以接受的租市場也是一個產業鏈我們希望它是健康透明的\n\n32\n00:11:29,819 --> 00:11:43,384\n這個方向我同意不過我的棒子還有胡蘿蔔的政策可以在檢討的地方請部長這邊和財政部待會兒研議謝謝我需要資料喔那兩個要求的資料要交到辦公室一個是財政部的一個是內政部的對對對謝謝好謝謝蘇曉慧委員下一位我們請張志倫委員質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4831\t6545\t好 謝謝主席 我們請劉世芳劉部長劉部長有請\n14662\t34449\t部長好部長我想我們今天討論的這個題目租屋市場的透明化其實是非常非常多國人尤其是年輕族群關心那租屋市場到底應不應該透明化我們當然是持肯定的態度應該要為什麼呢因為它會促進房價的公平性和合理性我想部長應該也認同這個方向應該是沒有問題吧方向沒有問題\n39751\t52584\t我們來看看實際上這幾年政府做的狀況有沒有改善我們用這三年的租賃住宅的有效契約數被公開也就是透明化的數字來看很明顯的從2022年底我們有掌握的公開的是40萬一直到去年2024的年底已經到了72萬件這樣子的成長幅度不可謂不大\n62273\t74772\t所以表示我們在推動的政策確實是有效度的我想這個也應該給內政部辛苦的同仁相關業務的同仁一個值得掌聲一下那我們接著就來看72萬戶 72萬件\n79056\t88100\t到底還值不值得應該繼續往上推呢最有效的政策是什麼呢我們看到剛剛72萬件其實主要是來自於從2021年我們修正了不動產經濟業的管理條例24-1條在只要你的租賃是透過不動產經濟業去處理的那是強制百分之百公開所以這邊就有3萬多件好\n103206\t122372\t那後面我們就繼續推動了租屋補貼政策和包租代管政策尤其是這個租屋補貼政策讓大家把整個的租屋市場哇真的真正的都公開透明化起來這是一個最有效度的政策這樣看起來所以你看看我們如果以全國和各縣市這樣數字來看的話其實剛剛說的72萬件裡面\n127113\t155877\t這個數字其實在這裡小小的岔題一下其實內政部你們有很多不同的統計方式對數字差異不大但是各種不同標準看起來就是會有一點點的落差所以我也很難說要用哪一個那現在我們用這個你們自己提供的這樣租賃住宅有效契約涵蓋率來講的話全國已經到達了75%可是你看其他六都來講以雙北是明顯低於全國的涵蓋率你全國的\n156417\t170888\t有75%公布了可是雙北一個是五成一個是六成部長你怎麼看這樣的現象因為雙北反而是租賃市場最大的地方啊它不是最應該要被公開這樣才能表示達到我們的政策嗎部長你怎麼看這題\n172168\t191403\t是的我想非常謝謝委員的關心我想重點是在於說我們能夠掌握到可以讓我們來做這個統計數據的分析是來自於我們的租金補貼的部分那是最有效的政策啦他的掌握度不高大概在於就私人呢他比較不願意提供有關租金沒有沒有我現在的問題是為什麼雙北比較低\n193004\t197709\t其實就租金補貼來講雙北因為大概在符合的這個比例上來講是相對比較低大概以學生為主因為租金補貼他也有一個薪資上限\n212463\t223835\t他一個薪資上限那所以在這樣的狀況下其實在目前來講全國會申請率最高會是在桃園跟台中也是因為桃園這邊的比例甚至超過100欸對對對所以他的數據會來自於是說因為珠普的話\n229781\t248947\t他有一個薪資上限所以以現在所收到的這樣的一個案件來講其實桃園跟台中的比例會是最高你看一下這個表單這個表格它是租賃住宅的有效契約它不是單純的租金補貼而已喔所以您剛剛的回答稍微有一點偏差公委員\n252895\t273105\t百分之百是因為我們用主計總數的統計資料全國有87萬戶那如果加計在外租屋的部分有22萬戶的話大概會有110萬戶所以那個租金是以87萬戶來做統計你看我剛剛從一開始到現在我其實是在跟你順一個邏輯我的邏輯是租賃市場要不要公開透明化 要\n273965\t281856\t那全國有沒有進步 有最有效達成這個成功率的政策是什麼看起來是租金補貼那雙北為什麼是最低所以我們一層一層我們要解決問題就是要先找出問題真正的問題在哪裡所以我剛剛是在跟你說雙北為什麼最低\n290768\t318203\t好 你看起來還沒有抱得非常具體的回答我但你也切到一個邊你插到一個邊說最有效的租金補貼的政策反而在雙北可能不見得那麼能夠有效度執行因為學生居多好 這個就是爭點一了嘛那我覺得這很值得探討應該可以再被討論因為學生市場學生的租屋市場反而是最應該要有公開透明資料的嘛這是其一嘛好 那第二順著我接下來我要討論的\n319484\t347822\t我继续跟你讨论为什么这个租金租屋补贴的部分租屋补贴的部分既然它是最有效的我们回到刚刚那个圆饼图的部分好了租屋补贴既然是最能够达成租屋市场公开透明化的政策那我们要怎么把它加强我上个会期就已经咨询过了不外乎棒子跟胡萝卜胡萝卜的部分我们来看看来署长和部长看一下这个公益出租人租税优惠\n349944\t377361\t稅付優惠其實就是我們提供給這個租屋補貼的政策嘛讓房東願意願意加入這個政策坦白講每個人都是要看利益利德嘛所以當我們讓他當他成為公益出租人的時候我們把他的稅付下降他覺得欸加入這個計畫對我也不錯啊不是只有房客拿到了補貼是有房東的稅付也可以減少那我當然也願意加入這個同意吧沒有問題吧\n379125\t394698\t沒有人回答我們是不是可以請財政部來回應這個問題那剛剛統計不是啦我現在在討論內政部的政策嘛那我是請我們那個處長跟您回應一下統計的部分好嗎我只要回答這個單純的部分部長沒有關係啦您直接回答會署長回答也沒有關係啦\n396345\t410953\t讓公益出租人覺得自己有利可得所以願意加入這個政策沒有問題嘛對不對好那我們現在來看公益出租人得到的稅負優惠會有哪一些其實你也列得很清楚了嘛綜合所得稅房屋稅和地價稅請問內政部或財政部有沒有統計過\n416616\t440163\t他所減少的稅負和他如果加入這個政策被政府知道他有這麼多的房屋在出租的時候他的所得稅增加這兩件比較起來他是多還是少他的總收入到底是多還是少有沒有做過這個統計這個就可以財政部啦內政部他們從來沒有給你資料嘛對不對財政部沒有給你這個資料嘛財政部你們有做過這個統計嗎\n442535\t460137\t跟委員報告這個他可以想租稅優惠但是我們另外一個規定說這個資料我們不會作為查稅的依據所以我們不會去追他以前的稅你要不要針對我的問題回答我的問題是問你公益出軍人在這一屆租金補貼的案件當中他得到的稅負優惠和和\n462199\t487568\t他因為房子這麼多出租了被政府知道以後他的所得增加以後要繳納的所得稅負這兩者一出一進之間比較起來他到底是有失還是有得你們有沒有做過比較嘛我們目前沒有這個統計那你覺不覺得這才是真正關鍵的原因嘛你這邊看起來讓他降稅了可是事實上他因為被知道房子多了所以所以\n488368\t515168\t他最後比較起來總收入還是增加所以他當然覺得這個案子對我無利可圖我就不參加了嘛這才是我們今天公益出租人為什麼不參加租金補貼計畫最大的原因啊就是你的胡蘿蔔不是真正的胡蘿蔔嘛這是第一個嘛好來那第二個我們來看棒子的部分來棒子的部分內政部房東不擇禁止房客申請租金補貼我非常同意\n515868\t541234\t有了胡蘿蔔就應該有棒子來我們來看內政部其實你們在111年的時候就已經說了不但房客房東如果禁止房客不得申請的時候房客可以拒絕及主張無效而且如果房東進而要要求漲租或負擔所得增加稅負的時候房客可以向政府提出申訴要求改正如果不改正可處3萬至30萬元罰款\n543294\t556989\t人具不改正者可加重處五至五十萬法案並得按次處罰我想請問內政部從實施到現在有多少人來申訴你們裁罰了多少件有統計數字嗎\n559592\t575629\t有關於違反這個規定的部分我們現在沒有統計數據為什麼沒有統計數據因為那個在地方不過我們有統計每年的租金的一個有關租屋糾紛大概有2700多件你沒有統計數據你怎麼知道你這個政策是有沒有效度的\n576704\t592081\t我要求應該要有統計數據啊不然你訂這個規定是什麼回事呢所以我今天在跟你談論的就是這樣的兩個點好 我們再重申一次整個的邏輯整個的邏輯就是我們認為租屋市場應該要透明化\n592722\t620396\t租金普天達成了租金市場透明化非常有功效而且社會大眾都喜歡都滿意現在也已經到達了一個高比率很可惜還有一點點落差所以我們希望胡蘿蔔成為真正的胡蘿蔔財政部應該要就關於出租人的所得到底能夠得到多少的優惠提出具體的數字來看看我們現在的租稅優惠是否適合\n621477\t636571\t棒子的部分也就是內政部對你自己提出的這樣的裁罰應該要做出統計數字並且繼續追蹤讓棒子跟胡蘿蔔都是有效度的讓租金補貼政策可以持續進行並且提高這樣同意吧\n637812\t650074\t部長這樣不好意思麻煩承諾一下我們會跟財政部一起來努力不管是胡蘿蔔棒子的部分但是在執行層面上面我們也需要考慮到說是民法契約上面的規範完全同意所以我同意部長這個方向所以我也認為不應該直接修法變成是所有的租賃契約通通強制我不認為應該要這樣做因為它每個地區有不一樣的狀況\n663857\t689199\t而且說實在的我們其實租賃市場也不需要到達百分之百全面透明我們要的是一個公平合理的房價資訊所以到一定程度其實就已經可以掌握市場的狀況我認為還是應該保有自由溢價的空間只要它在合理公平性這個是可以接受的租市場也是一個產業鏈我們希望它是健康透明的\n689819\t703384\t這個方向我同意 不過我的棒子還有胡蘿蔔的政策可以在檢討的地方請部長這邊和財政部待會兒研議謝謝 我需要資料喔那兩個要求的資料要交到辦公室一個是財政部的一個是內政部的 對對對 謝謝好 謝謝蘇曉慧委員下一位我們請張志倫委員質詢\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 我們請劉世芳劉部長劉部長有請\n部長好部長我想我們今天討論的這個題目租屋市場的透明化其實是非常非常多國人尤其是年輕族群關心那租屋市場到底應不應該透明化我們當然是持肯定的態度應該要為什麼呢因為它會促進房價的公平性和合理性我想部長應該也認同這個方向應該是沒有問題吧方向沒有問題\n我們來看看實際上這幾年政府做的狀況有沒有改善我們用這三年的租賃住宅的有效契約數被公開也就是透明化的數字來看很明顯的從2022年底我們有掌握的公開的是40萬一直到去年2024的年底已經到了72萬件這樣子的成長幅度不可謂不大\n所以表示我們在推動的政策確實是有效度的我想這個也應該給內政部辛苦的同仁相關業務的同仁一個值得掌聲一下那我們接著就來看72萬戶 72萬件\n到底還值不值得應該繼續往上推呢最有效的政策是什麼呢我們看到剛剛72萬件其實主要是來自於從2021年我們修正了不動產經濟業的管理條例24-1條在只要你的租賃是透過不動產經濟業去處理的那是強制百分之百公開所以這邊就有3萬多件好\n那後面我們就繼續推動了租屋補貼政策和包租代管政策尤其是這個租屋補貼政策讓大家把整個的租屋市場哇真的真正的都公開透明化起來這是一個最有效度的政策這樣看起來所以你看看我們如果以全國和各縣市這樣數字來看的話其實剛剛說的72萬件裡面\n這個數字其實在這裡小小的岔題一下其實內政部你們有很多不同的統計方式對數字差異不大但是各種不同標準看起來就是會有一點點的落差所以我也很難說要用哪一個那現在我們用這個你們自己提供的這樣租賃住宅有效契約涵蓋率來講的話全國已經到達了75%可是你看其他六都來講以雙北是明顯低於全國的涵蓋率你全國的\n有75%公布了可是雙北一個是五成一個是六成部長你怎麼看這樣的現象因為雙北反而是租賃市場最大的地方啊它不是最應該要被公開這樣才能表示達到我們的政策嗎部長你怎麼看這題\n是的我想非常謝謝委員的關心我想重點是在於說我們能夠掌握到可以讓我們來做這個統計數據的分析是來自於我們的租金補貼的部分那是最有效的政策啦他的掌握度不高大概在於就私人呢他比較不願意提供有關租金沒有沒有我現在的問題是為什麼雙北比較低\n其實就租金補貼來講雙北因為大概在符合的這個比例上來講是相對比較低大概以學生為主因為租金補貼他也有一個薪資上限\n他一個薪資上限那所以在這樣的狀況下其實在目前來講全國會申請率最高會是在桃園跟台中也是因為桃園這邊的比例甚至超過100欸對對對所以他的數據會來自於是說因為珠普的話\n他有一個薪資上限所以以現在所收到的這樣的一個案件來講其實桃園跟台中的比例會是最高你看一下這個表單這個表格它是租賃住宅的有效契約它不是單純的租金補貼而已喔所以您剛剛的回答稍微有一點偏差公委員\n百分之百是因為我們用主計總數的統計資料全國有87萬戶那如果加計在外租屋的部分有22萬戶的話大概會有110萬戶所以那個租金是以87萬戶來做統計你看我剛剛從一開始到現在我其實是在跟你順一個邏輯我的邏輯是租賃市場要不要公開透明化 要\n那全國有沒有進步 有最有效達成這個成功率的政策是什麼看起來是租金補貼那雙北為什麼是最低所以我們一層一層我們要解決問題就是要先找出問題真正的問題在哪裡所以我剛剛是在跟你說雙北為什麼最低\n好 你看起來還沒有抱得非常具體的回答我但你也切到一個邊你插到一個邊說最有效的租金補貼的政策反而在雙北可能不見得那麼能夠有效度執行因為學生居多好 這個就是爭點一了嘛那我覺得這很值得探討應該可以再被討論因為學生市場學生的租屋市場反而是最應該要有公開透明資料的嘛這是其一嘛好 那第二順著我接下來我要討論的\n我继续跟你讨论为什么这个租金租屋补贴的部分租屋补贴的部分既然它是最有效的我们回到刚刚那个圆饼图的部分好了租屋补贴既然是最能够达成租屋市场公开透明化的政策那我们要怎么把它加强我上个会期就已经咨询过了不外乎棒子跟胡萝卜胡萝卜的部分我们来看看来署长和部长看一下这个公益出租人租税优惠\n稅付優惠其實就是我們提供給這個租屋補貼的政策嘛讓房東願意願意加入這個政策坦白講每個人都是要看利益利德嘛所以當我們讓他當他成為公益出租人的時候我們把他的稅付下降他覺得欸加入這個計畫對我也不錯啊不是只有房客拿到了補貼是有房東的稅付也可以減少那我當然也願意加入這個同意吧沒有問題吧\n沒有人回答我們是不是可以請財政部來回應這個問題那剛剛統計不是啦我現在在討論內政部的政策嘛那我是請我們那個處長跟您回應一下統計的部分好嗎我只要回答這個單純的部分部長沒有關係啦您直接回答會署長回答也沒有關係啦\n讓公益出租人覺得自己有利可得所以願意加入這個政策沒有問題嘛對不對好那我們現在來看公益出租人得到的稅負優惠會有哪一些其實你也列得很清楚了嘛綜合所得稅房屋稅和地價稅請問內政部或財政部有沒有統計過\n他所減少的稅負和他如果加入這個政策被政府知道他有這麼多的房屋在出租的時候他的所得稅增加這兩件比較起來他是多還是少他的總收入到底是多還是少有沒有做過這個統計這個就可以財政部啦內政部他們從來沒有給你資料嘛對不對財政部沒有給你這個資料嘛財政部你們有做過這個統計嗎\n跟委員報告這個他可以想租稅優惠但是我們另外一個規定說這個資料我們不會作為查稅的依據所以我們不會去追他以前的稅你要不要針對我的問題回答我的問題是問你公益出軍人在這一屆租金補貼的案件當中他得到的稅負優惠和和\n他因為房子這麼多出租了被政府知道以後他的所得增加以後要繳納的所得稅負這兩者一出一進之間比較起來他到底是有失還是有得你們有沒有做過比較嘛我們目前沒有這個統計那你覺不覺得這才是真正關鍵的原因嘛你這邊看起來讓他降稅了可是事實上他因為被知道房子多了所以所以\n他最後比較起來總收入還是增加所以他當然覺得這個案子對我無利可圖我就不參加了嘛這才是我們今天公益出租人為什麼不參加租金補貼計畫最大的原因啊就是你的胡蘿蔔不是真正的胡蘿蔔嘛這是第一個嘛好來那第二個我們來看棒子的部分來棒子的部分內政部房東不擇禁止房客申請租金補貼我非常同意\n有了胡蘿蔔就應該有棒子來我們來看內政部其實你們在111年的時候就已經說了不但房客房東如果禁止房客不得申請的時候房客可以拒絕及主張無效而且如果房東進而要要求漲租或負擔所得增加稅負的時候房客可以向政府提出申訴要求改正如果不改正可處3萬至30萬元罰款\n人具不改正者可加重處五至五十萬法案並得按次處罰我想請問內政部從實施到現在有多少人來申訴你們裁罰了多少件有統計數字嗎\n有關於違反這個規定的部分我們現在沒有統計數據為什麼沒有統計數據因為那個在地方不過我們有統計每年的租金的一個有關租屋糾紛大概有2700多件你沒有統計數據你怎麼知道你這個政策是有沒有效度的\n我要求應該要有統計數據啊不然你訂這個規定是什麼回事呢所以我今天在跟你談論的就是這樣的兩個點好 我們再重申一次整個的邏輯整個的邏輯就是我們認為租屋市場應該要透明化\n租金普天達成了租金市場透明化非常有功效而且社會大眾都喜歡都滿意現在也已經到達了一個高比率很可惜還有一點點落差所以我們希望胡蘿蔔成為真正的胡蘿蔔財政部應該要就關於出租人的所得到底能夠得到多少的優惠提出具體的數字來看看我們現在的租稅優惠是否適合\n棒子的部分也就是內政部對你自己提出的這樣的裁罰應該要做出統計數字並且繼續追蹤讓棒子跟胡蘿蔔都是有效度的讓租金補貼政策可以持續進行並且提高這樣同意吧\n部長這樣不好意思麻煩承諾一下我們會跟財政部一起來努力不管是胡蘿蔔棒子的部分但是在執行層面上面我們也需要考慮到說是民法契約上面的規範完全同意所以我同意部長這個方向所以我也認為不應該直接修法變成是所有的租賃契約通通強制我不認為應該要這樣做因為它每個地區有不一樣的狀況\n而且說實在的我們其實租賃市場也不需要到達百分之百全面透明我們要的是一個公平合理的房價資訊所以到一定程度其實就已經可以掌握市場的狀況我認為還是應該保有自由溢價的空間只要它在合理公平性這個是可以接受的租市場也是一個產業鏈我們希望它是健康透明的\n這個方向我同意 不過我的棒子還有胡蘿蔔的政策可以在檢討的地方請部長這邊和財政部待會兒研議謝謝 我需要資料喔那兩個要求的資料要交到辦公室一個是財政部的一個是內政部的 對對對 謝謝好 謝謝蘇曉慧委員下一位我們請張志倫委員質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.831 --> 00:06.545\n好謝謝主席我們請劉世芳劉部長劉部長有請\n\n00:14.662 --> 00:34.449\n部長好部長我想我們今天討論的這個題目租屋市場的透明化其實是非常非常多國人尤其是年輕族群關心那租屋市場到底應不應該透明化我們當然是持肯定的態度應該要為什麼呢因為它會促進房價的公平性和合理性我想部長應該也認同這個方向應該是沒有問題吧方向沒有問題\n\n00:39.751 --> 00:52.584\n我們來看看實際上這幾年政府做的狀況有沒有改善我們用這三年的租賃住宅的有效契約數被公開也就是透明化的數字來看很明顯的從2022年底我們有掌握的公開的是40萬一直到去年2024的年底已經到了72萬件這樣子的成長幅度不可謂不大\n\n01:02.273 --> 01:14.772\n所以表示我們在推動的政策確實是有效度的我想這個也應該給內政部辛苦的同仁相關業務的同仁一個值得掌聲一下那我們接著就來看72萬戶72萬件\n\n01:19.056 --> 01:28.100\n到底還值不值得應該繼續往上推呢最有效的政策是什麼呢我們看到剛剛72萬件其實主要是來自於從2021年我們修正了不動產經濟業的管理條例24-1條在只要你的租賃是透過不動產經濟業去處理的那是強制百分之百公開所以這邊就有3萬多件好\n\n01:43.206 --> 02:02.372\n那後面我們就繼續推動了租屋補貼政策和包租代管政策尤其是這個租屋補貼政策讓大家把整個的租屋市場哇真的真正的都公開透明化起來這是一個最有效度的政策這樣看起來所以你看看我們如果以全國和各縣市這樣數字來看的話其實剛剛說的72萬件裡面\n\n02:07.113 --> 02:35.877\n這個數字其實在這裡小小的岔題一下其實內政部你們有很多不同的統計方式對數字差異不大但是各種不同標準看起來就是會有一點點的落差所以我也很難說要用哪一個那現在我們用這個你們自己提供的這樣租賃住宅有效契約涵蓋率來講的話全國已經到達了75%可是你看其他六都來講以雙北是明顯低於全國的涵蓋率你全國的\n\n02:36.417 --> 02:50.888\n有75%公布了可是雙北一個是五成一個是六成部長你怎麼看這樣的現象因為雙北反而是租賃市場最大的地方啊它不是最應該要被公開這樣才能表示達到我們的政策嗎部長你怎麼看這題\n\n02:52.168 --> 03:11.403\n是的我想非常謝謝委員的關心我想重點是在於說我們能夠掌握到可以讓我們來做這個統計數據的分析是來自於我們的租金補貼的部分那是最有效的政策啦他的掌握度不高大概在於就私人呢他比較不願意提供有關租金沒有沒有我現在的問題是為什麼雙北比較低\n\n03:13.004 --> 03:17.709\n其實就租金補貼來講雙北因為大概在符合的這個比例上來講是相對比較低大概以學生為主因為租金補貼他也有一個薪資上限\n\n03:32.463 --> 03:43.835\n他一個薪資上限那所以在這樣的狀況下其實在目前來講全國會申請率最高會是在桃園跟台中也是因為桃園這邊的比例甚至超過100欸對對對所以他的數據會來自於是說因為珠普的話\n\n03:49.781 --> 04:08.947\n他有一個薪資上限所以以現在所收到的這樣的一個案件來講其實桃園跟台中的比例會是最高你看一下這個表單這個表格它是租賃住宅的有效契約它不是單純的租金補貼而已喔所以您剛剛的回答稍微有一點偏差公委員\n\n04:12.895 --> 04:33.105\n百分之百是因為我們用主計總數的統計資料全國有87萬戶那如果加計在外租屋的部分有22萬戶的話大概會有110萬戶所以那個租金是以87萬戶來做統計你看我剛剛從一開始到現在我其實是在跟你順一個邏輯我的邏輯是租賃市場要不要公開透明化要\n\n04:33.965 --> 04:41.856\n那全國有沒有進步有最有效達成這個成功率的政策是什麼看起來是租金補貼那雙北為什麼是最低所以我們一層一層我們要解決問題就是要先找出問題真正的問題在哪裡所以我剛剛是在跟你說雙北為什麼最低\n\n04:50.768 --> 05:18.203\n好你看起來還沒有抱得非常具體的回答我但你也切到一個邊你插到一個邊說最有效的租金補貼的政策反而在雙北可能不見得那麼能夠有效度執行因為學生居多好這個就是爭點一了嘛那我覺得這很值得探討應該可以再被討論因為學生市場學生的租屋市場反而是最應該要有公開透明資料的嘛這是其一嘛好那第二順著我接下來我要討論的\n\n05:19.484 --> 05:47.822\n我继续跟你讨论为什么这个租金租屋补贴的部分租屋补贴的部分既然它是最有效的我们回到刚刚那个圆饼图的部分好了租屋补贴既然是最能够达成租屋市场公开透明化的政策那我们要怎么把它加强我上个会期就已经咨询过了不外乎棒子跟胡萝卜胡萝卜的部分我们来看看来署长和部长看一下这个公益出租人租税优惠\n\n05:49.944 --> 06:17.361\n稅付優惠其實就是我們提供給這個租屋補貼的政策嘛讓房東願意願意加入這個政策坦白講每個人都是要看利益利德嘛所以當我們讓他當他成為公益出租人的時候我們把他的稅付下降他覺得欸加入這個計畫對我也不錯啊不是只有房客拿到了補貼是有房東的稅付也可以減少那我當然也願意加入這個同意吧沒有問題吧\n\n06:19.125 --> 06:34.698\n沒有人回答我們是不是可以請財政部來回應這個問題那剛剛統計不是啦我現在在討論內政部的政策嘛那我是請我們那個處長跟您回應一下統計的部分好嗎我只要回答這個單純的部分部長沒有關係啦您直接回答會署長回答也沒有關係啦\n\n06:36.345 --> 06:50.953\n讓公益出租人覺得自己有利可得所以願意加入這個政策沒有問題嘛對不對好那我們現在來看公益出租人得到的稅負優惠會有哪一些其實你也列得很清楚了嘛綜合所得稅房屋稅和地價稅請問內政部或財政部有沒有統計過\n\n06:56.616 --> 07:20.163\n他所減少的稅負和他如果加入這個政策被政府知道他有這麼多的房屋在出租的時候他的所得稅增加這兩件比較起來他是多還是少他的總收入到底是多還是少有沒有做過這個統計這個就可以財政部啦內政部他們從來沒有給你資料嘛對不對財政部沒有給你這個資料嘛財政部你們有做過這個統計嗎\n\n07:22.535 --> 07:40.137\n跟委員報告這個他可以想租稅優惠但是我們另外一個規定說這個資料我們不會作為查稅的依據所以我們不會去追他以前的稅你要不要針對我的問題回答我的問題是問你公益出軍人在這一屆租金補貼的案件當中他得到的稅負優惠和和\n\n07:42.199 --> 08:07.568\n他因為房子這麼多出租了被政府知道以後他的所得增加以後要繳納的所得稅負這兩者一出一進之間比較起來他到底是有失還是有得你們有沒有做過比較嘛我們目前沒有這個統計那你覺不覺得這才是真正關鍵的原因嘛你這邊看起來讓他降稅了可是事實上他因為被知道房子多了所以所以\n\n08:08.368 --> 08:35.168\n他最後比較起來總收入還是增加所以他當然覺得這個案子對我無利可圖我就不參加了嘛這才是我們今天公益出租人為什麼不參加租金補貼計畫最大的原因啊就是你的胡蘿蔔不是真正的胡蘿蔔嘛這是第一個嘛好來那第二個我們來看棒子的部分來棒子的部分內政部房東不擇禁止房客申請租金補貼我非常同意\n\n08:35.868 --> 09:01.234\n有了胡蘿蔔就應該有棒子來我們來看內政部其實你們在111年的時候就已經說了不但房客房東如果禁止房客不得申請的時候房客可以拒絕及主張無效而且如果房東進而要要求漲租或負擔所得增加稅負的時候房客可以向政府提出申訴要求改正如果不改正可處3萬至30萬元罰款\n\n09:03.294 --> 09:16.989\n人具不改正者可加重處五至五十萬法案並得按次處罰我想請問內政部從實施到現在有多少人來申訴你們裁罰了多少件有統計數字嗎\n\n09:19.592 --> 09:35.629\n有關於違反這個規定的部分我們現在沒有統計數據為什麼沒有統計數據因為那個在地方不過我們有統計每年的租金的一個有關租屋糾紛大概有2700多件你沒有統計數據你怎麼知道你這個政策是有沒有效度的\n\n09:36.704 --> 09:52.081\n我要求應該要有統計數據啊不然你訂這個規定是什麼回事呢所以我今天在跟你談論的就是這樣的兩個點好我們再重申一次整個的邏輯整個的邏輯就是我們認為租屋市場應該要透明化\n\n09:52.722 --> 10:20.396\n租金普天達成了租金市場透明化非常有功效而且社會大眾都喜歡都滿意現在也已經到達了一個高比率很可惜還有一點點落差所以我們希望胡蘿蔔成為真正的胡蘿蔔財政部應該要就關於出租人的所得到底能夠得到多少的優惠提出具體的數字來看看我們現在的租稅優惠是否適合\n\n10:21.477 --> 10:36.571\n棒子的部分也就是內政部對你自己提出的這樣的裁罰應該要做出統計數字並且繼續追蹤讓棒子跟胡蘿蔔都是有效度的讓租金補貼政策可以持續進行並且提高這樣同意吧\n\n10:37.812 --> 10:50.074\n部長這樣不好意思麻煩承諾一下我們會跟財政部一起來努力不管是胡蘿蔔棒子的部分但是在執行層面上面我們也需要考慮到說是民法契約上面的規範完全同意所以我同意部長這個方向所以我也認為不應該直接修法變成是所有的租賃契約通通強制我不認為應該要這樣做因為它每個地區有不一樣的狀況\n\n11:03.857 --> 11:29.199\n而且說實在的我們其實租賃市場也不需要到達百分之百全面透明我們要的是一個公平合理的房價資訊所以到一定程度其實就已經可以掌握市場的狀況我認為還是應該保有自由溢價的空間只要它在合理公平性這個是可以接受的租市場也是一個產業鏈我們希望它是健康透明的\n\n11:29.819 --> 11:43.384\n這個方向我同意不過我的棒子還有胡蘿蔔的政策可以在檢討的地方請部長這邊和財政部待會兒研議謝謝我需要資料喔那兩個要求的資料要交到辦公室一個是財政部的一個是內政部的對對對謝謝好謝謝蘇曉慧委員下一位我們請張志倫委員質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.831,"end":6.545,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請劉世芳劉部長劉部長有請"},{"start":14.662,"end":34.449,"text":"部長好部長我想我們今天討論的這個題目租屋市場的透明化其實是非常非常多國人尤其是年輕族群關心那租屋市場到底應不應該透明化我們當然是持肯定的態度應該要為什麼呢因為它會促進房價的公平性和合理性我想部長應該也認同這個方向應該是沒有問題吧方向沒有問題"},{"start":39.751,"end":52.584,"text":"我們來看看實際上這幾年政府做的狀況有沒有改善我們用這三年的租賃住宅的有效契約數被公開也就是透明化的數字來看很明顯的從2022年底我們有掌握的公開的是40萬一直到去年2024的年底已經到了72萬件這樣子的成長幅度不可謂不大"},{"start":62.273,"end":74.772,"text":"所以表示我們在推動的政策確實是有效度的我想這個也應該給內政部辛苦的同仁相關業務的同仁一個值得掌聲一下那我們接著就來看72萬戶 72萬件"},{"start":79.056,"end":88.1,"text":"到底還值不值得應該繼續往上推呢最有效的政策是什麼呢我們看到剛剛72萬件其實主要是來自於從2021年我們修正了不動產經濟業的管理條例24-1條在只要你的租賃是透過不動產經濟業去處理的那是強制百分之百公開所以這邊就有3萬多件好"},{"start":103.206,"end":122.372,"text":"那後面我們就繼續推動了租屋補貼政策和包租代管政策尤其是這個租屋補貼政策讓大家把整個的租屋市場哇真的真正的都公開透明化起來這是一個最有效度的政策這樣看起來所以你看看我們如果以全國和各縣市這樣數字來看的話其實剛剛說的72萬件裡面"},{"start":127.113,"end":155.877,"text":"這個數字其實在這裡小小的岔題一下其實內政部你們有很多不同的統計方式對數字差異不大但是各種不同標準看起來就是會有一點點的落差所以我也很難說要用哪一個那現在我們用這個你們自己提供的這樣租賃住宅有效契約涵蓋率來講的話全國已經到達了75%可是你看其他六都來講以雙北是明顯低於全國的涵蓋率你全國的"},{"start":156.417,"end":170.888,"text":"有75%公布了可是雙北一個是五成一個是六成部長你怎麼看這樣的現象因為雙北反而是租賃市場最大的地方啊它不是最應該要被公開這樣才能表示達到我們的政策嗎部長你怎麼看這題"},{"start":172.168,"end":191.403,"text":"是的我想非常謝謝委員的關心我想重點是在於說我們能夠掌握到可以讓我們來做這個統計數據的分析是來自於我們的租金補貼的部分那是最有效的政策啦他的掌握度不高大概在於就私人呢他比較不願意提供有關租金沒有沒有我現在的問題是為什麼雙北比較低"},{"start":193.004,"end":197.709,"text":"其實就租金補貼來講雙北因為大概在符合的這個比例上來講是相對比較低大概以學生為主因為租金補貼他也有一個薪資上限"},{"start":212.463,"end":223.835,"text":"他一個薪資上限那所以在這樣的狀況下其實在目前來講全國會申請率最高會是在桃園跟台中也是因為桃園這邊的比例甚至超過100欸對對對所以他的數據會來自於是說因為珠普的話"},{"start":229.781,"end":248.947,"text":"他有一個薪資上限所以以現在所收到的這樣的一個案件來講其實桃園跟台中的比例會是最高你看一下這個表單這個表格它是租賃住宅的有效契約它不是單純的租金補貼而已喔所以您剛剛的回答稍微有一點偏差公委員"},{"start":252.895,"end":273.105,"text":"百分之百是因為我們用主計總數的統計資料全國有87萬戶那如果加計在外租屋的部分有22萬戶的話大概會有110萬戶所以那個租金是以87萬戶來做統計你看我剛剛從一開始到現在我其實是在跟你順一個邏輯我的邏輯是租賃市場要不要公開透明化 要"},{"start":273.965,"end":281.856,"text":"那全國有沒有進步 有最有效達成這個成功率的政策是什麼看起來是租金補貼那雙北為什麼是最低所以我們一層一層我們要解決問題就是要先找出問題真正的問題在哪裡所以我剛剛是在跟你說雙北為什麼最低"},{"start":290.768,"end":318.203,"text":"好 你看起來還沒有抱得非常具體的回答我但你也切到一個邊你插到一個邊說最有效的租金補貼的政策反而在雙北可能不見得那麼能夠有效度執行因為學生居多好 這個就是爭點一了嘛那我覺得這很值得探討應該可以再被討論因為學生市場學生的租屋市場反而是最應該要有公開透明資料的嘛這是其一嘛好 那第二順著我接下來我要討論的"},{"start":319.484,"end":347.822,"text":"我继续跟你讨论为什么这个租金租屋补贴的部分租屋补贴的部分既然它是最有效的我们回到刚刚那个圆饼图的部分好了租屋补贴既然是最能够达成租屋市场公开透明化的政策那我们要怎么把它加强我上个会期就已经咨询过了不外乎棒子跟胡萝卜胡萝卜的部分我们来看看来署长和部长看一下这个公益出租人租税优惠"},{"start":349.944,"end":377.361,"text":"稅付優惠其實就是我們提供給這個租屋補貼的政策嘛讓房東願意願意加入這個政策坦白講每個人都是要看利益利德嘛所以當我們讓他當他成為公益出租人的時候我們把他的稅付下降他覺得欸加入這個計畫對我也不錯啊不是只有房客拿到了補貼是有房東的稅付也可以減少那我當然也願意加入這個同意吧沒有問題吧"},{"start":379.125,"end":394.698,"text":"沒有人回答我們是不是可以請財政部來回應這個問題那剛剛統計不是啦我現在在討論內政部的政策嘛那我是請我們那個處長跟您回應一下統計的部分好嗎我只要回答這個單純的部分部長沒有關係啦您直接回答會署長回答也沒有關係啦"},{"start":396.345,"end":410.953,"text":"讓公益出租人覺得自己有利可得所以願意加入這個政策沒有問題嘛對不對好那我們現在來看公益出租人得到的稅負優惠會有哪一些其實你也列得很清楚了嘛綜合所得稅房屋稅和地價稅請問內政部或財政部有沒有統計過"},{"start":416.616,"end":440.163,"text":"他所減少的稅負和他如果加入這個政策被政府知道他有這麼多的房屋在出租的時候他的所得稅增加這兩件比較起來他是多還是少他的總收入到底是多還是少有沒有做過這個統計這個就可以財政部啦內政部他們從來沒有給你資料嘛對不對財政部沒有給你這個資料嘛財政部你們有做過這個統計嗎"},{"start":442.535,"end":460.137,"text":"跟委員報告這個他可以想租稅優惠但是我們另外一個規定說這個資料我們不會作為查稅的依據所以我們不會去追他以前的稅你要不要針對我的問題回答我的問題是問你公益出軍人在這一屆租金補貼的案件當中他得到的稅負優惠和和"},{"start":462.199,"end":487.568,"text":"他因為房子這麼多出租了被政府知道以後他的所得增加以後要繳納的所得稅負這兩者一出一進之間比較起來他到底是有失還是有得你們有沒有做過比較嘛我們目前沒有這個統計那你覺不覺得這才是真正關鍵的原因嘛你這邊看起來讓他降稅了可是事實上他因為被知道房子多了所以所以"},{"start":488.368,"end":515.168,"text":"他最後比較起來總收入還是增加所以他當然覺得這個案子對我無利可圖我就不參加了嘛這才是我們今天公益出租人為什麼不參加租金補貼計畫最大的原因啊就是你的胡蘿蔔不是真正的胡蘿蔔嘛這是第一個嘛好來那第二個我們來看棒子的部分來棒子的部分內政部房東不擇禁止房客申請租金補貼我非常同意"},{"start":515.868,"end":541.234,"text":"有了胡蘿蔔就應該有棒子來我們來看內政部其實你們在111年的時候就已經說了不但房客房東如果禁止房客不得申請的時候房客可以拒絕及主張無效而且如果房東進而要要求漲租或負擔所得增加稅負的時候房客可以向政府提出申訴要求改正如果不改正可處3萬至30萬元罰款"},{"start":543.294,"end":556.989,"text":"人具不改正者可加重處五至五十萬法案並得按次處罰我想請問內政部從實施到現在有多少人來申訴你們裁罰了多少件有統計數字嗎"},{"start":559.592,"end":575.629,"text":"有關於違反這個規定的部分我們現在沒有統計數據為什麼沒有統計數據因為那個在地方不過我們有統計每年的租金的一個有關租屋糾紛大概有2700多件你沒有統計數據你怎麼知道你這個政策是有沒有效度的"},{"start":576.704,"end":592.081,"text":"我要求應該要有統計數據啊不然你訂這個規定是什麼回事呢所以我今天在跟你談論的就是這樣的兩個點好 我們再重申一次整個的邏輯整個的邏輯就是我們認為租屋市場應該要透明化"},{"start":592.722,"end":620.396,"text":"租金普天達成了租金市場透明化非常有功效而且社會大眾都喜歡都滿意現在也已經到達了一個高比率很可惜還有一點點落差所以我們希望胡蘿蔔成為真正的胡蘿蔔財政部應該要就關於出租人的所得到底能夠得到多少的優惠提出具體的數字來看看我們現在的租稅優惠是否適合"},{"start":621.477,"end":636.571,"text":"棒子的部分也就是內政部對你自己提出的這樣的裁罰應該要做出統計數字並且繼續追蹤讓棒子跟胡蘿蔔都是有效度的讓租金補貼政策可以持續進行並且提高這樣同意吧"},{"start":637.812,"end":650.074,"text":"部長這樣不好意思麻煩承諾一下我們會跟財政部一起來努力不管是胡蘿蔔棒子的部分但是在執行層面上面我們也需要考慮到說是民法契約上面的規範完全同意所以我同意部長這個方向所以我也認為不應該直接修法變成是所有的租賃契約通通強制我不認為應該要這樣做因為它每個地區有不一樣的狀況"},{"start":663.857,"end":689.199,"text":"而且說實在的我們其實租賃市場也不需要到達百分之百全面透明我們要的是一個公平合理的房價資訊所以到一定程度其實就已經可以掌握市場的狀況我認為還是應該保有自由溢價的空間只要它在合理公平性這個是可以接受的租市場也是一個產業鏈我們希望它是健康透明的"},{"start":689.819,"end":703.384,"text":"這個方向我同意 不過我的棒子還有胡蘿蔔的政策可以在檢討的地方請部長這邊和財政部待會兒研議謝謝 我需要資料喔那兩個要求的資料要交到辦公室一個是財政部的一個是內政部的 對對對 謝謝好 謝謝蘇曉慧委員下一位我們請張志倫委員質詢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":186,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時12分）謝謝主席，我們請劉世芳劉部長。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員早。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長好。部長，我想我們今天討論的題目租屋市場的透明化，其實是非常非常多國人，尤其是年輕族群關心的，那租屋市場到底應不應該透明化？我們當然是持肯定的態度，應該要，為什麼呢？因為它會促進房價的公平性和合理性，我想部長應該也認同這個方向，應該是沒有問題，方向沒有問題。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我們來看看實際上這幾年政府做的狀況有沒有改善，我們用這三年的租賃住宅的有效契約書被公開，也就是透明化的數字來看，很明顯的從2022年底，我們有掌握的、公開的是40萬，一直到去年2024的年底，已經到了72萬件，這樣子的成長幅度不可謂不大，就表示我們在推動的政策確實是有效度的，我想這個也應該給內政部辛苦的同仁、相關業務的同仁掌聲一下。","我們接著就來看，72萬件到底還值不值得應該繼續往上推呢？最有效的政策是什麼？我們看到剛剛的72萬件，其實主要是來自於從2021年我們修正了不動產經紀業的管理條例第二十四條之一，只要你的租賃是透過不動產經紀業去處理的，那是強制百分之百公開，所以這邊就有三萬多件。後面我們就繼續推動了租屋補貼政策和包租代管政策，尤其是租屋補貼政策，讓大家把整個租屋市場真正的公開、透明化起來，這樣看起來這是一個最有效度的政策。","所以我們如果以全國和各縣市這樣的數字來看的話，其實剛剛說的72萬件裡面，這個數字其實……在這裡小小的岔題一下，其實內政部你們有很多不同的統計方式，數字差異不大，但是各種不同的標準看起來就是會有一點點的落差，所以我也很難說要用哪一個。那現在我們是用你們自己提供的，以租賃住宅有效契約涵蓋率來講的話，全國已經到達了75%，可是你看其他六都來講，雙北是明顯低於全國的涵蓋率，全國已經有75%公布了，可是雙北一個是五成，一個是六成，部長，你怎麼看這樣的現象？因為雙北反而是租賃市場最大的地方，它不是最應該要被公開，這樣才能表示達到我們的政策嗎？部長，你怎麼看這一點？"],["劉部長世芳：是的，我想非常謝謝委員的關心，我想重點是在於說，我們能夠掌握到可以讓我們來做這個統計數據的分析，是來自於我們的租金補貼的部分。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對。"],["劉部長世芳：這是最有效的政策。那它的掌握度不高，大概在於私人比較不願意提供有關租屋……"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒有，我現在的問題是為什麼雙北比較低？"],["劉部長世芳：我是不是請我們司長來回應。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，儘快好不好？儘快，我們時間有限。我的問題很具體，為什麼雙北比較低？"],["吳署長欣修：其實就租金補貼來講，雙北在符合這個比例上來講是相對比較低，大概以學生為主，因為租金補貼它有一個薪資上限，所以在這樣的狀況下，其實在目前來講，全國申請率最高的會是在桃園跟臺中，也是因為他們……"],["蘇委員巧慧：桃園這邊的比例甚至超過100%耶！"],["吳署長欣修：對，所以它的數據會來自於說，因為租補它有一個薪資上限，所以以現在所收到的案件來講，其實桃園跟臺中的比例會是最高，雙北會是最低。"],["蘇委員巧慧：署長，你看一下這個表單，這個表格它是租賃住宅的有效契約，它不是單純的租金補貼而已，所以您剛剛的回答稍微有一點偏差。"],["林代理司長家正：跟委員報告，桃園會超過百分之百是因為我們用主計總處的統計資料，全國有87萬戶，如果加計在外租屋的部分有22萬戶的話，大概會有110萬戶，所以那個是以87萬戶來做統計。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你看我剛剛從一開始到現在，我其實在跟你順一個邏輯，我的邏輯是租賃市場要不要公開、透明化？要！那全國有沒有進步？有！最有效達成這個成功率的政策是什麼？看起來是租金補貼。那雙北為什麼是最低？所以我們一層一層來，我們要解決問題，就是要先去找出真正的問題在哪裡嘛！所以我剛剛是在跟你說，雙北為什麼最低？好，你看起來還沒有辦法非常具體地回答我，但你有切到一個邊、擦到一個邊就是，最有效的租金補貼政策反而在雙北可能不見得能夠那麼有效執行，因為學生居多。好，這個就是爭點一了嘛！我覺得這個很值得探討，應該可以再被討論，因為學生的租屋市場反而是最應該要有公開透明資料的，這是其一嘛！","第二，我順著接下來要討論的部分是，我要繼續跟你討論為什麼這個租屋補貼的部分……我們回到剛剛那個圓餅圖的畫面，既然租屋補貼是最有效、最能達成租屋市場公開透明化的政策，我們要怎麼加強它？我上個會期就已經質詢過了，不外乎棒子跟胡蘿蔔。胡蘿蔔的部分我們來看看，署長和部長，看一下這個「公益出租人稅賦優惠」，其實就是我們提供租屋補貼的政策嘛！讓房東願意加入這個政策。坦白講，每個人都要看利益、利得，所以當我們讓他……當他成為公益出租人的時候，我們把他的稅賦下降，他覺得加入這個計畫對我也不錯，不是只有房客拿到了補貼，是我房東的稅賦也可以減少，我當然就願意加入，這個同意吧？沒有問題吧？沒有人回答嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是不是可以請財政部來回應你這個問題？剛剛……"],["蘇委員巧慧：不是啦，我現在在討論內政部的政策嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：我是不是請我們處長跟您回應一下統計的部分好嗎？"],["蘇委員巧慧：我只要回答這個單純的部分。部長，沒有關係，您直接回答，或署長回答也沒有關啦！讓公益出租人覺得自己有利可得，願意加入這個政策沒有問題嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：瞭解。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，我們現在來看公益出租人得到的稅賦優惠會有哪些，其實你也列得很清楚了，有綜合所得稅、房屋稅和地價稅。請問內政部或財政部有沒有統計過他所減少的稅賦和他如果加入了這個政策，被政府知道他有這麼多間房屋在出租的時候，他增加的所得稅，這兩件比較起來他是多還是少？他的總收入到底是多還是少？有沒有做過這個統計？"],["吳署長欣修：沒有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這個就給財政部了。內政部，財政部從來沒有給你資料嘛，對不對？財政部，你們有做過這個統計嗎？"],["倪副署長麗心：跟委員報告，他可以享租稅優惠，但是我們另外有一個規定是，這個資料我們不會作為查稅的依據，所以我們不會去追他以前的稅。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你要不要針對我的問題回答。我的問題是問你，公益出租人在這一件租金補貼的案件當中，他得到的稅賦優惠，和他因為房子這麼多出租了，被政府知道他所得增加以後，要繳納的所得稅賦，這兩者一出一進之間比較起來，他到底是有失還是有得？你們有沒有做過比較？"],["倪副署長麗心：我們目前沒有這個統計。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你覺不覺得這才是真正關鍵的原因？你這邊看起來讓他降稅了，可是事實上他因為被知道房子多了，所以他最後比較起來，總收入他還是增加當然會覺得這個案子對他無利可圖，他就不參加了嘛！這才是我們今天公益出租人為什麼不參加租金補貼計畫最大的原因啊！就是你的胡蘿蔔不是真正的胡蘿蔔，這是第一個嘛！","第二個，我們來看棒子的部分，「內政部：房東不得禁止房客申請租金補貼」，我非常同意，有了胡蘿蔔就應該要有棒子。內政部其實在111年時就已經說了，房東如果禁止房客申請的話，房客可以拒絕及主張無效，而且如果房東進而要求漲租或負擔所得增加稅賦的時候，房客可以向政府提出申訴要求改正，如果不改正可處3萬至30萬元罰鍰，仍拒不改正者可加重5萬至50萬罰鍰，並得按次處罰。我想請問內政部，從實施到現在，有多少人來申訴？你們裁罰了多少件？有統計數字嗎？"],["林代理司長家正：有關違反這個規定的部分，我們現在沒有這個統計數據，不過我們……"],["蘇委員巧慧：為什麼沒有統計數據？"],["林代理司長家正：因為那個是在地方，不過我們有統計每年租金的……有關租屋糾紛的部分，大概有二千七百多件。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你沒有統計數據，怎麼知道這個政策有沒有效度？我要求應該要有統計數據啊！不然你定這個規定是怎麼回事呢？所以我今天在跟你談論的是這兩個點。好，我們再重申一次整個邏輯，整個邏輯就是，我們認為租屋市場應該要透明化，租金補貼達成了租屋市場透明化非常有功效，而且社會大眾都喜歡、都滿意，現在也已經到達了一個高比率，很可惜，還有一點點落差，所以我們希望胡蘿蔔成為真正的胡蘿蔔，財政部應該要就公益出租人的所得，到底能夠得到多少的優惠，提出具體的數字，來看看我們現在的租稅優惠是否適合。","棒子的部分就是，內政部對你自己提出這樣的裁罰應該要做出統計數字，並且繼續追蹤，讓棒子跟胡蘿蔔都是有效度的，讓租金補貼政策可以持續進行，並且提高，這樣同意吧？部長，不好意思，麻煩指教。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員指教，我們會跟財政部一起努力，不管是胡蘿蔔、棒子的部分……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！"],["劉部長世芳：在執行層面上，我們也須要考慮到是民法契約上面的規範，所以公部門比較不容易處理。"],["蘇委員巧慧：完全同意，我同意部長的這個方向，所以我也認為不應該直接修法，變成是所有的租賃契約統統強制……"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我不認為應該要這樣做，因為每個地區有不一樣的狀況，而且說實在的，我們的租賃市場也不需要到達百分之百全面透明，我們要的是一個公平、合理的房價資訊，所以到一定程度，其實就已經可以掌握市場的狀況了，我認為還是應該保有自由議價的空間，只要它是合理、具公平性，這個是可以接受的。"],["劉部長世芳：租屋市場也是一個產業鏈，我們希望它是健康透明的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是，這個方向我同意，不過對於棒子跟胡蘿蔔的政策可以再檢討的地方，請部長和財政部帶回去研議。"],["劉部長世芳：好，我們會跟財政部一起努力。"],["蘇委員巧慧：謝謝，我需要資料喔！這兩個要求的資料要交到辦公室，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：好，我知道，委員要求的資料，一個是財政部的，一個是內政部的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇巧慧委員。","下一位我們請張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-5","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","張啓楷","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","黃健豪","黃珊珊","鍾佳濱","郭國文","高金素梅"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、行政院消費者保護處處長、財政部就「租賃住宅市場透明化之現況及展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00002"}}}