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138.256, \"end\": 139.157, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"平\", \"start\": 139.157, \"end\": 139.357, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"均\", \"start\": 139.357, \"end\": 139.537, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"每\", \"start\": 139.537, \"end\": 139.758, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 139.758, \"end\": 140.398, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 140.398, \"end\": 140.418, \"score\": 0.191}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 140.418, \"end\": 140.518, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 140.518, \"end\": 140.538, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"詐\"}, {\"word\": \"騙\"}]}, {\"start\": 142.728, \"end\": 170.016, \"text\": \"我覺得政府應該要做的是更多的我們應該想辦法看我們有什麼樣的政策工具把打詐這件事情做得更多我相信你應該可以認同我的話但是這次我也關注到一件事情金管會前一陣子祭出史上最重的罰款這裁罰金額高達兩千兩百萬罰的對象是全台灣民眾最信任的我們的台灣銀行 台銀\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 142.728, \"end\": 142.948, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 142.948, \"end\": 143.088, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 143.088, \"end\": 143.308, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 143.308, \"end\": 143.488, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 143.488, \"end\": 143.888, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 143.888, \"end\": 144.068, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 144.068, \"end\": 144.208, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 144.208, \"end\": 144.368, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 144.368, \"end\": 144.609, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 144.609, \"end\": 144.869, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 144.869, \"end\": 145.229, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 145.229, \"end\": 145.969, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 145.969, \"end\": 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\"end\": 167.035, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 167.035, \"end\": 167.555, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 167.555, \"end\": 168.215, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"眾\"}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 168.215, \"end\": 168.515, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 168.515, \"end\": 168.795, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 168.795, \"end\": 169.095, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 169.095, \"end\": 169.475, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 169.475, \"end\": 169.675, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 169.675, \"end\": 169.836, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 169.836, \"end\": 169.976, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"銀\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 169.976, \"end\": 169.996, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 169.996, \"end\": 170.016, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"銀\"}]}, {\"start\": 172.779, \"end\": 177.448, \"text\": \"我想這次你應該知道什麼事情台銀的行員自主詐騙集團詐騙民眾的血汗錢\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 172.779, \"end\": 172.859, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 172.859, \"end\": 173.24, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 173.24, \"end\": 173.36, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 173.36, \"end\": 173.661, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 173.661, \"end\": 173.781, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 173.781, \"end\": 173.921, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 173.921, \"end\": 174.162, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 174.162, \"end\": 174.362, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 174.362, \"end\": 175.104, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 175.104, \"end\": 176.066, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"銀\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 176.066, \"end\": 176.326, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": 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\"start\": 655.177, \"end\": 655.417, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 655.417, \"end\": 655.557, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"李\", \"start\": 655.557, \"end\": 655.657, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"雯\", \"start\": 655.657, \"end\": 655.777, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 655.777, \"end\": 655.917, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 655.917, \"end\": 656.017, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"休\", \"start\": 656.017, \"end\": 656.077, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"息\", \"start\": 656.077, \"end\": 656.137, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"十\", \"start\": 656.137, \"end\": 656.177, \"score\": 0.497}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 656.177, \"end\": 656.197, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"鐘\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,370 --> 00:00:13,198\n就請財政部的阮政次還有財政部的阮政次以及我們的主計長主計長先休息一下喝水等一下第二個問題再輪到您主計長先休息一下喝個水\n\n2\n00:00:17,997 --> 00:00:32,725\n上個會期我們在立法院不分黨派修了一個非常重要的法案有共識的法案就是打詐專法但是打詐專法的案件跟金額我關注到從打詐儀表板裡面從3月16號到3月22號\n\n3\n00:00:36,027 --> 00:00:38,449\n我們的詐騙的案件數仍舊有3917件那這個被詐騙的金額仍舊有18億這是光光一個禮拜左右的時間在3月16號到3月22號\n\n4\n00:00:51,218 --> 00:01:18,299\n在1月份我們被詐騙的金額是95億在2月份我們被詐騙的金額高達60億雖然我有關注到一個數字比較去年我們每日被詐騙的金額是4.8億現在可能透過我們修法的努力也好或者是我們的基層員警還有大家接受到有可能被詐騙的訊息現在每天平均可能只有2億\n\n5\n00:01:19,500 --> 00:01:44,021\n但是這次每天全國被詐騙兩億這個數字每一塊錢都是人民的血汗錢我常常在基層跑的時候有一些民眾跟我講說我都不敢跟我家人講但我被詐騙了多少錢有沒有機會追得回來其實有時候我知道困難度非常高但他們非常痛苦\n\n6\n00:01:44,361 --> 00:01:55,792\n也就是說我們要感受到人民的痛苦這件事情我覺得在打造這件事情我們似乎政府還應該做得更多我說到這邊你同意嗎\n\n7\n00:01:57,438 --> 00:02:20,538\n跟委員報告事實上打詐這一部分我們對公股也好或者供應市也好我們這個是我們督導的重點對但是我們似乎可以做的更多我們不是似乎我們應該要做的更多如果說1月份還有95億2月份時間比較短有60億平均每天我們還有2億被詐騙\n\n8\n00:02:22,728 --> 00:02:50,016\n我覺得政府應該要做的是更多的我們應該想辦法看我們有什麼樣的政策工具把打詐這件事情做得更多我相信你應該可以認同我的話但是這次我也關注到一件事情金管會前一陣子祭出史上最重的罰款這裁罰金額高達兩千兩百萬罰的對象是全台灣民眾最信任的我們的台灣銀行台銀\n\n9\n00:02:52,779 --> 00:02:57,448\n我想這次你應該知道什麼事情台銀的行員自主詐騙集團詐騙民眾的血汗錢\n\n10\n00:03:02,116 --> 00:03:22,587\n而且根據台銀內部我們也有洗錢防治法的示警機制但是我們最後是查到就是查證人員跟主管認為該行員同屬同一個分行就沒有積極查證我們自己政府官員公股銀行做出這樣的事情\n\n11\n00:03:23,567 --> 00:03:34,596\n我們有相關的市井機制但是卻發生這樣的事情這件事情要不要為全國要不要為台英這件事情跟全國人民道歉\n\n12\n00:03:35,850 --> 00:04:02,177\n跟委員包括這個事情發生這發生在台銀的台銀是公股銀行它應該是所有公股銀行的表率在所有不管民間或公股銀行裡面台銀應該是人民最可以信任的單位我應該這麼說譬如說在美國美國銀行是大家可以最信任的單位在台灣銀行是公股銀行的表率是\n\n13\n00:04:03,178 --> 00:04:19,254\n照你說應該做模範,但是卻發生這樣的事情,你認為應不應該為這件事情道歉?我跟委員報告,發生這種事情我們真的是非常遺憾因為他這個內部的相關的同仁除了遺憾之外,應不應該道歉?\n\n14\n00:04:22,932 --> 00:04:47,768\n我是覺得是這樣子因為這兩個同仁我們現在都已經提起公訴而且都已經免職了那麼相關的督導的他們當然有司法這次他們當然有司法的問題但是如果身為台灣銀行我們公股銀行第一表率我們的內控機制都這麼糟糕的話我們監理的機制內控的機制都這麼糟糕我們如何管理其他的公股銀行甚至是民間的銀行\n\n15\n00:04:49,706 --> 00:05:07,737\n所以你到現在還不敢說出我們應該對民眾道歉我們未來會加強管理你只有遺憾兩個字我心裡會覺得非常難過因為每一塊錢我剛剛已經講了都是人民的血汗錢所以你不能道歉這件事情我個人是覺得我更覺得遺憾我也非常的詫異那我就要請問就是說除了檢訟司法之外就是對於這一個個案\n\n16\n00:05:19,204 --> 00:05:35,943\n但是我們財政部跟金管會未來如何加強合作把加強後續的內控機制做得更好譬如說我要請問鄭次我們現在打詐的主管到底是專任還是兼任我們有沒有打詐主管\n\n17\n00:05:36,704 --> 00:05:49,456\n打詐的主管基本上他是按照他的權責就是說有沒有打詐主管這件事你就直接回答有做沒有好有好有那他是專任還是簽任\n\n18\n00:05:51,953 --> 00:06:06,364\n這個他不可能是專任的那我就要說我的看法想法我不知道你為什麼說不能專任但是對於無論洗錢防治法也好或者是專任的打擊詐騙\n\n19\n00:06:09,987 --> 00:06:38,789\n監控的控管這個是需要高度的關注兼任這件事情我有時間我再去做我沒時間我要把我的本份業務做本份業務沒做好我會拖累到整個銀行的整個系統SOP標準SOP所以就是因為它長期是一個兼任的機制所以是不是才會有台銀這個事情發生我不知道還有沒有其他的未爆彈但是我今天在這邊質詢我就透過我的質詢提醒你\n\n20\n00:06:40,031 --> 00:06:46,571\n專任跟兼任在去做打詐主管這件事情對於銀行的內控機制的管理\n\n21\n00:06:48,576 --> 00:07:12,287\n是有程度上的差異能不能做得更好就是有程度上的差異所以你不要跟我講說你沒有辦法做是在人為看你有沒有決心當台灣銀行自己做了一個專任的打詐主管找出一個打詐主管是專任的我相信未來整個內控的機制管理監理都一定會做得更好我跟委員報告就是基本上這個案子未發生基本上是發生\n\n22\n00:07:13,207 --> 00:07:40,781\n到第一道防線我們在這個因為我今天時間不多因為我還要問主計長但是我只提醒你怎麼樣做得更好我只提醒你工具跟方法但是你要去思考怎麼樣去做兼任的能不能做得更好或者是專任的才可以把事情做好我提醒你把它因為台灣銀行發生這個事情全國都在看如果台灣銀行內控沒做好你怎麼去要求其他公股銀行甚至是民間銀行\n\n23\n00:07:41,561 --> 00:07:44,623\n主席,臺灣的通膨已經連續三年超過二我們通常跟央行主管跟您之前討論,超過二就開始人民對於通膨的感受度是非常明顯的\n\n24\n00:08:08,055 --> 00:08:34,706\n但是台灣已經過去連續三年通膨已經達到警戒線甚至都超過二那我們現在碰到幾個當然非常大的挑戰國際的問題關稅的問題匯率的操作這都是匯之數好那我看到你二月份上修的預估通膨是達到1.94我要請問主計長這個1.94有沒有計算到今年可能面臨的關稅還有包括我們店家的漲幅\n\n25\n00:08:36,781 --> 00:09:05,888\n然後民生用電也會漲到11%工業用電可能漲到6%當然這都還不一定但是這個1.94有沒有把今年水電的漲幅納入考量沒有這目前是沒有沒有的好那如果今年我不知道最後會漲多少了那我們通膨會有沒有可能再上修如果4月份公佈調漲之後你目前有沒有計算過幾個版本我們最後通膨會上修大概多少\n\n26\n00:09:07,009 --> 00:09:25,639\n如果有店會有調整的話那這個部分我們大概會做一些上修啦我當然講你一定會上修因為那個數字是很輕你當然要計算但是主計長你應該會有幾個版本你會去建議跟行政院長卓院長溝通說欸調漲5%6%8%11%大概排骨飯未來會多少會漲到多少芋頭飯會多少早餐一個三明治會漲多少你應該有跟他講吧\n\n27\n00:09:35,024 --> 00:09:51,092\n我們主計處不是加減數字我們應該也會提供一些政策思考給長官看嘛不是因為這個部分我們主要是我們的評估人會把評估結果送給院長你有送就對了你有提醒他們就對了有送好幾個版本有送幾個版本但是我們沒有針對台電這個我們還沒有去把還沒有對\n\n28\n00:09:56,435 --> 00:10:08,923\n主席講這個事情很大條我的意思是說你應該去告訴他漲5%那整個通膨是多少7%是多少11%你們應該有這個版本才對如果到現在還沒算這個版本非常訝異台電要不要漲現在還沒有確定\n\n29\n00:10:13,686 --> 00:10:39,667\n我們必須等到它漲了確定之後那漲了就來不及啦漲了就來不及仔細講我再提醒一件事情我再用最後30秒因為我去年問你說我們現在受雇員工的經常性薪資已經是連續三年的負成長好不容易今年調整變成正成長變0.58%所以如果今年的通膨持續維持新高的話那\n\n30\n00:10:41,549 --> 00:10:56,197\n我們今年是不是經常性的薪資實質薪資都能夠維持正成長或甚至會變回負責這是去年啦但今年到底狀況你今年還能維持正成長好謝謝好謝謝李雯的質詢我們休息十分鐘\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1370\t13198\t就請財政部的阮政次還有 財政部的阮政次以及我們的主計長主計長先休息一下喝水等一下第二個問題再輪到您主計長先休息一下喝個水\n17997\t32725\t上個會期我們在立法院不分黨派修了一個非常重要的法案有共識的法案就是打詐專法但是打詐專法的案件跟金額我關注到從打詐儀表板裡面從3月16號到3月22號\n36027\t38449\t我們的詐騙的案件數仍舊有3917件那這個被詐騙的金額仍舊有18億這是光光一個禮拜左右的時間在3月16號到3月22號\n51218\t78299\t在1月份我們被詐騙的金額是95億在2月份我們被詐騙的金額高達60億雖然我有關注到一個數字比較去年我們每日被詐騙的金額是4.8億現在可能透過我們修法的努力也好或者是我們的基層員警還有大家接受到有可能被詐騙的訊息現在每天平均可能只有2億\n79500\t104021\t但是這次每天全國被詐騙兩億這個數字每一塊錢都是人民的血汗錢我常常在基層跑的時候有一些民眾跟我講說我都不敢跟我家人講但我被詐騙了多少錢有沒有機會追得回來其實有時候我知道困難度非常高但他們非常痛苦\n104361\t115792\t也就是說我們要感受到人民的痛苦這件事情我覺得在打造這件事情我們似乎政府還應該做得更多我說到這邊你同意嗎\n117438\t140538\t跟委員報告事實上打詐這一部分我們對公股也好或者供應市也好我們這個是我們督導的重點對但是我們似乎可以做的更多我們不是似乎我們應該要做的更多如果說1月份還有95億2月份時間比較短有60億平均每天我們還有2億被詐騙\n142728\t170016\t我覺得政府應該要做的是更多的我們應該想辦法看我們有什麼樣的政策工具把打詐這件事情做得更多我相信你應該可以認同我的話但是這次我也關注到一件事情金管會前一陣子祭出史上最重的罰款這裁罰金額高達兩千兩百萬罰的對象是全台灣民眾最信任的我們的台灣銀行 台銀\n172779\t177448\t我想這次你應該知道什麼事情台銀的行員自主詐騙集團詐騙民眾的血汗錢\n182116\t202587\t而且根據台銀內部我們也有洗錢防治法的示警機制但是我們最後是查到就是查證人員跟主管認為該行員同屬同一個分行就沒有積極查證我們自己政府官員公股銀行做出這樣的事情\n203567\t214596\t我們有相關的市井機制但是卻發生這樣的事情這件事情要不要為全國要不要為台英這件事情跟全國人民道歉\n215850\t242177\t跟委員包括這個事情發生這發生在台銀的台銀是公股銀行它應該是所有公股銀行的表率在所有不管民間或公股銀行裡面台銀應該是人民最可以信任的單位我應該這麼說譬如說在美國美國銀行是大家可以最信任的單位在台灣銀行是公股銀行的表率是\n243178\t259254\t照你說應該做模範,但是卻發生這樣的事情,你認為應不應該為這件事情道歉?我跟委員報告,發生這種事情我們真的是非常遺憾因為他這個內部的相關的同仁除了遺憾之外,應不應該道歉?\n262932\t287768\t我是覺得是這樣子因為這兩個同仁我們現在都已經提起公訴而且都已經免職了那麼相關的督導的他們當然有司法這次他們當然有司法的問題但是如果身為台灣銀行我們公股銀行第一表率我們的內控機制都這麼糟糕的話我們監理的機制內控的機制都這麼糟糕我們如何管理其他的公股銀行甚至是民間的銀行\n289706\t307737\t所以你到現在還不敢說出我們應該對民眾道歉我們未來會加強管理你只有遺憾兩個字我心裡會覺得非常難過因為每一塊錢我剛剛已經講了都是人民的血汗錢所以你不能道歉這件事情我個人是覺得我更覺得遺憾我也非常的詫異那我就要請問就是說除了檢訟司法之外就是對於這一個個案\n319204\t335943\t但是我們財政部跟金管會未來如何加強合作把加強後續的內控機制做得更好譬如說我要請問鄭次我們現在打詐的主管到底是專任還是兼任我們有沒有打詐主管\n336704\t349456\t打詐的主管基本上他是按照他的權責就是說有沒有打詐主管這件事你就直接回答有做沒有好有好有那他是專任還是簽任\n351953\t366364\t這個他不可能是專任的那我就要說我的看法想法我不知道你為什麼說不能專任但是對於無論洗錢防治法也好或者是專任的打擊詐騙\n369987\t398789\t監控的控管這個是需要高度的關注兼任這件事情我有時間我再去做我沒時間我要把我的本份業務做本份業務沒做好我會拖累到整個銀行的整個系統SOP 標準SOP所以就是因為它長期是一個兼任的機制所以是不是才會有台銀這個事情發生我不知道還有沒有其他的未爆彈但是我今天在這邊質詢我就透過我的質詢提醒你\n400031\t406571\t專任跟兼任在去做打詐主管這件事情對於銀行的內控機制的管理\n408576\t432287\t是有程度上的差異能不能做得更好就是有程度上的差異所以你不要跟我講說你沒有辦法做是在人為看你有沒有決心當台灣銀行自己做了一個專任的打詐主管找出一個打詐主管是專任的我相信未來整個內控的機制管理監理都一定會做得更好我跟委員報告就是基本上這個案子未發生基本上是發生\n433207\t460781\t到第一道防線我們在這個因為我今天時間不多因為我還要問主計長但是我只提醒你怎麼樣做得更好我只提醒你工具跟方法但是你要去思考怎麼樣去做兼任的能不能做得更好或者是專任的才可以把事情做好我提醒你把它因為台灣銀行發生這個事情全國都在看如果台灣銀行內控沒做好你怎麼去要求其他公股銀行甚至是民間銀行\n461561\t464623\t主席,臺灣的通膨已經連續三年超過二我們通常跟央行主管跟您之前討論,超過二就開始人民對於通膨的感受度是非常明顯的\n488055\t514706\t但是台灣已經過去連續三年通膨已經達到警戒線甚至都超過二那我們現在碰到幾個當然非常大的挑戰國際的問題關稅的問題匯率的操作這都是匯之數好那我看到你二月份上修的預估通膨是達到1.94我要請問主計長這個1.94有沒有計算到今年可能面臨的關稅還有包括我們店家的漲幅\n516781\t545888\t然後民生用電也會漲到11%工業用電可能漲到6%當然這都還不一定但是這個1.94有沒有把今年水電的漲幅納入考量沒有這目前是沒有沒有的好那如果今年我不知道最後會漲多少了那我們通膨會有沒有可能再上修如果4月份公佈調漲之後你目前有沒有計算過幾個版本我們最後通膨會上修大概多少\n547009\t565639\t如果有店會有調整的話那這個部分我們大概會做一些上修啦我當然講你一定會上修因為那個數字是很輕你當然要計算但是主計長你應該會有幾個版本你會去建議跟行政院長 卓院長溝通說欸 調漲5% 6% 8% 11%大概排骨飯未來會多少會漲到多少 芋頭飯會多少早餐一個三明治會漲多少你應該有跟他講吧\n575024\t591092\t我們主計處不是加減數字我們應該也會提供一些政策思考給長官看嘛不是因為這個部分我們主要是我們的評估人會把評估結果送給院長你有送就對了你有提醒他們就對了有送好幾個版本有送幾個版本但是我們沒有針對台電這個我們還沒有去把還沒有對\n596435\t608923\t主席講這個事情很大條我的意思是說你應該去告訴他漲5%那整個通膨是多少7%是多少 11%你們應該有這個版本才對如果到現在還沒算這個版本非常訝異台電要不要漲現在還沒有確定\n613686\t639667\t我們必須等到它漲了確定之後那漲了就來不及啦 漲了就來不及仔細講 我再提醒一件事情我再用最後30秒因為我去年問你說我們現在受雇員工的經常性薪資已經是連續三年的負成長好不容易今年調整變成正成長變0.58%所以如果今年的通膨持續維持新高的話那\n641549\t656197\t我們今年是不是經常性的薪資 實質薪資都能夠維持正成長或甚至會變回負責這是去年啦 但今年到底狀況你今年還能維持正成長 好 謝謝好 謝謝李雯的質詢 我們休息十分鐘\n","txt":"就請財政部的阮政次還有 財政部的阮政次以及我們的主計長主計長先休息一下喝水等一下第二個問題再輪到您主計長先休息一下喝個水\n上個會期我們在立法院不分黨派修了一個非常重要的法案有共識的法案就是打詐專法但是打詐專法的案件跟金額我關注到從打詐儀表板裡面從3月16號到3月22號\n我們的詐騙的案件數仍舊有3917件那這個被詐騙的金額仍舊有18億這是光光一個禮拜左右的時間在3月16號到3月22號\n在1月份我們被詐騙的金額是95億在2月份我們被詐騙的金額高達60億雖然我有關注到一個數字比較去年我們每日被詐騙的金額是4.8億現在可能透過我們修法的努力也好或者是我們的基層員警還有大家接受到有可能被詐騙的訊息現在每天平均可能只有2億\n但是這次每天全國被詐騙兩億這個數字每一塊錢都是人民的血汗錢我常常在基層跑的時候有一些民眾跟我講說我都不敢跟我家人講但我被詐騙了多少錢有沒有機會追得回來其實有時候我知道困難度非常高但他們非常痛苦\n也就是說我們要感受到人民的痛苦這件事情我覺得在打造這件事情我們似乎政府還應該做得更多我說到這邊你同意嗎\n跟委員報告事實上打詐這一部分我們對公股也好或者供應市也好我們這個是我們督導的重點對但是我們似乎可以做的更多我們不是似乎我們應該要做的更多如果說1月份還有95億2月份時間比較短有60億平均每天我們還有2億被詐騙\n我覺得政府應該要做的是更多的我們應該想辦法看我們有什麼樣的政策工具把打詐這件事情做得更多我相信你應該可以認同我的話但是這次我也關注到一件事情金管會前一陣子祭出史上最重的罰款這裁罰金額高達兩千兩百萬罰的對象是全台灣民眾最信任的我們的台灣銀行 台銀\n我想這次你應該知道什麼事情台銀的行員自主詐騙集團詐騙民眾的血汗錢\n而且根據台銀內部我們也有洗錢防治法的示警機制但是我們最後是查到就是查證人員跟主管認為該行員同屬同一個分行就沒有積極查證我們自己政府官員公股銀行做出這樣的事情\n我們有相關的市井機制但是卻發生這樣的事情這件事情要不要為全國要不要為台英這件事情跟全國人民道歉\n跟委員包括這個事情發生這發生在台銀的台銀是公股銀行它應該是所有公股銀行的表率在所有不管民間或公股銀行裡面台銀應該是人民最可以信任的單位我應該這麼說譬如說在美國美國銀行是大家可以最信任的單位在台灣銀行是公股銀行的表率是\n照你說應該做模範,但是卻發生這樣的事情,你認為應不應該為這件事情道歉?我跟委員報告,發生這種事情我們真的是非常遺憾因為他這個內部的相關的同仁除了遺憾之外,應不應該道歉?\n我是覺得是這樣子因為這兩個同仁我們現在都已經提起公訴而且都已經免職了那麼相關的督導的他們當然有司法這次他們當然有司法的問題但是如果身為台灣銀行我們公股銀行第一表率我們的內控機制都這麼糟糕的話我們監理的機制內控的機制都這麼糟糕我們如何管理其他的公股銀行甚至是民間的銀行\n所以你到現在還不敢說出我們應該對民眾道歉我們未來會加強管理你只有遺憾兩個字我心裡會覺得非常難過因為每一塊錢我剛剛已經講了都是人民的血汗錢所以你不能道歉這件事情我個人是覺得我更覺得遺憾我也非常的詫異那我就要請問就是說除了檢訟司法之外就是對於這一個個案\n但是我們財政部跟金管會未來如何加強合作把加強後續的內控機制做得更好譬如說我要請問鄭次我們現在打詐的主管到底是專任還是兼任我們有沒有打詐主管\n打詐的主管基本上他是按照他的權責就是說有沒有打詐主管這件事你就直接回答有做沒有好有好有那他是專任還是簽任\n這個他不可能是專任的那我就要說我的看法想法我不知道你為什麼說不能專任但是對於無論洗錢防治法也好或者是專任的打擊詐騙\n監控的控管這個是需要高度的關注兼任這件事情我有時間我再去做我沒時間我要把我的本份業務做本份業務沒做好我會拖累到整個銀行的整個系統SOP 標準SOP所以就是因為它長期是一個兼任的機制所以是不是才會有台銀這個事情發生我不知道還有沒有其他的未爆彈但是我今天在這邊質詢我就透過我的質詢提醒你\n專任跟兼任在去做打詐主管這件事情對於銀行的內控機制的管理\n是有程度上的差異能不能做得更好就是有程度上的差異所以你不要跟我講說你沒有辦法做是在人為看你有沒有決心當台灣銀行自己做了一個專任的打詐主管找出一個打詐主管是專任的我相信未來整個內控的機制管理監理都一定會做得更好我跟委員報告就是基本上這個案子未發生基本上是發生\n到第一道防線我們在這個因為我今天時間不多因為我還要問主計長但是我只提醒你怎麼樣做得更好我只提醒你工具跟方法但是你要去思考怎麼樣去做兼任的能不能做得更好或者是專任的才可以把事情做好我提醒你把它因為台灣銀行發生這個事情全國都在看如果台灣銀行內控沒做好你怎麼去要求其他公股銀行甚至是民間銀行\n主席,臺灣的通膨已經連續三年超過二我們通常跟央行主管跟您之前討論,超過二就開始人民對於通膨的感受度是非常明顯的\n但是台灣已經過去連續三年通膨已經達到警戒線甚至都超過二那我們現在碰到幾個當然非常大的挑戰國際的問題關稅的問題匯率的操作這都是匯之數好那我看到你二月份上修的預估通膨是達到1.94我要請問主計長這個1.94有沒有計算到今年可能面臨的關稅還有包括我們店家的漲幅\n然後民生用電也會漲到11%工業用電可能漲到6%當然這都還不一定但是這個1.94有沒有把今年水電的漲幅納入考量沒有這目前是沒有沒有的好那如果今年我不知道最後會漲多少了那我們通膨會有沒有可能再上修如果4月份公佈調漲之後你目前有沒有計算過幾個版本我們最後通膨會上修大概多少\n如果有店會有調整的話那這個部分我們大概會做一些上修啦我當然講你一定會上修因為那個數字是很輕你當然要計算但是主計長你應該會有幾個版本你會去建議跟行政院長 卓院長溝通說欸 調漲5% 6% 8% 11%大概排骨飯未來會多少會漲到多少 芋頭飯會多少早餐一個三明治會漲多少你應該有跟他講吧\n我們主計處不是加減數字我們應該也會提供一些政策思考給長官看嘛不是因為這個部分我們主要是我們的評估人會把評估結果送給院長你有送就對了你有提醒他們就對了有送好幾個版本有送幾個版本但是我們沒有針對台電這個我們還沒有去把還沒有對\n主席講這個事情很大條我的意思是說你應該去告訴他漲5%那整個通膨是多少7%是多少 11%你們應該有這個版本才對如果到現在還沒算這個版本非常訝異台電要不要漲現在還沒有確定\n我們必須等到它漲了確定之後那漲了就來不及啦 漲了就來不及仔細講 我再提醒一件事情我再用最後30秒因為我去年問你說我們現在受雇員工的經常性薪資已經是連續三年的負成長好不容易今年調整變成正成長變0.58%所以如果今年的通膨持續維持新高的話那\n我們今年是不是經常性的薪資 實質薪資都能夠維持正成長或甚至會變回負責這是去年啦 但今年到底狀況你今年還能維持正成長 好 謝謝好 謝謝李雯的質詢 我們休息十分鐘\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.370 --> 00:13.198\n就請財政部的阮政次還有財政部的阮政次以及我們的主計長主計長先休息一下喝水等一下第二個問題再輪到您主計長先休息一下喝個水\n\n00:17.997 --> 00:32.725\n上個會期我們在立法院不分黨派修了一個非常重要的法案有共識的法案就是打詐專法但是打詐專法的案件跟金額我關注到從打詐儀表板裡面從3月16號到3月22號\n\n00:36.027 --> 00:38.449\n我們的詐騙的案件數仍舊有3917件那這個被詐騙的金額仍舊有18億這是光光一個禮拜左右的時間在3月16號到3月22號\n\n00:51.218 --> 01:18.299\n在1月份我們被詐騙的金額是95億在2月份我們被詐騙的金額高達60億雖然我有關注到一個數字比較去年我們每日被詐騙的金額是4.8億現在可能透過我們修法的努力也好或者是我們的基層員警還有大家接受到有可能被詐騙的訊息現在每天平均可能只有2億\n\n01:19.500 --> 01:44.021\n但是這次每天全國被詐騙兩億這個數字每一塊錢都是人民的血汗錢我常常在基層跑的時候有一些民眾跟我講說我都不敢跟我家人講但我被詐騙了多少錢有沒有機會追得回來其實有時候我知道困難度非常高但他們非常痛苦\n\n01:44.361 --> 01:55.792\n也就是說我們要感受到人民的痛苦這件事情我覺得在打造這件事情我們似乎政府還應該做得更多我說到這邊你同意嗎\n\n01:57.438 --> 02:20.538\n跟委員報告事實上打詐這一部分我們對公股也好或者供應市也好我們這個是我們督導的重點對但是我們似乎可以做的更多我們不是似乎我們應該要做的更多如果說1月份還有95億2月份時間比較短有60億平均每天我們還有2億被詐騙\n\n02:22.728 --> 02:50.016\n我覺得政府應該要做的是更多的我們應該想辦法看我們有什麼樣的政策工具把打詐這件事情做得更多我相信你應該可以認同我的話但是這次我也關注到一件事情金管會前一陣子祭出史上最重的罰款這裁罰金額高達兩千兩百萬罰的對象是全台灣民眾最信任的我們的台灣銀行台銀\n\n02:52.779 --> 02:57.448\n我想這次你應該知道什麼事情台銀的行員自主詐騙集團詐騙民眾的血汗錢\n\n03:02.116 --> 03:22.587\n而且根據台銀內部我們也有洗錢防治法的示警機制但是我們最後是查到就是查證人員跟主管認為該行員同屬同一個分行就沒有積極查證我們自己政府官員公股銀行做出這樣的事情\n\n03:23.567 --> 03:34.596\n我們有相關的市井機制但是卻發生這樣的事情這件事情要不要為全國要不要為台英這件事情跟全國人民道歉\n\n03:35.850 --> 04:02.177\n跟委員包括這個事情發生這發生在台銀的台銀是公股銀行它應該是所有公股銀行的表率在所有不管民間或公股銀行裡面台銀應該是人民最可以信任的單位我應該這麼說譬如說在美國美國銀行是大家可以最信任的單位在台灣銀行是公股銀行的表率是\n\n04:03.178 --> 04:19.254\n照你說應該做模範,但是卻發生這樣的事情,你認為應不應該為這件事情道歉?我跟委員報告,發生這種事情我們真的是非常遺憾因為他這個內部的相關的同仁除了遺憾之外,應不應該道歉?\n\n04:22.932 --> 04:47.768\n我是覺得是這樣子因為這兩個同仁我們現在都已經提起公訴而且都已經免職了那麼相關的督導的他們當然有司法這次他們當然有司法的問題但是如果身為台灣銀行我們公股銀行第一表率我們的內控機制都這麼糟糕的話我們監理的機制內控的機制都這麼糟糕我們如何管理其他的公股銀行甚至是民間的銀行\n\n04:49.706 --> 05:07.737\n所以你到現在還不敢說出我們應該對民眾道歉我們未來會加強管理你只有遺憾兩個字我心裡會覺得非常難過因為每一塊錢我剛剛已經講了都是人民的血汗錢所以你不能道歉這件事情我個人是覺得我更覺得遺憾我也非常的詫異那我就要請問就是說除了檢訟司法之外就是對於這一個個案\n\n05:19.204 --> 05:35.943\n但是我們財政部跟金管會未來如何加強合作把加強後續的內控機制做得更好譬如說我要請問鄭次我們現在打詐的主管到底是專任還是兼任我們有沒有打詐主管\n\n05:36.704 --> 05:49.456\n打詐的主管基本上他是按照他的權責就是說有沒有打詐主管這件事你就直接回答有做沒有好有好有那他是專任還是簽任\n\n05:51.953 --> 06:06.364\n這個他不可能是專任的那我就要說我的看法想法我不知道你為什麼說不能專任但是對於無論洗錢防治法也好或者是專任的打擊詐騙\n\n06:09.987 --> 06:38.789\n監控的控管這個是需要高度的關注兼任這件事情我有時間我再去做我沒時間我要把我的本份業務做本份業務沒做好我會拖累到整個銀行的整個系統SOP標準SOP所以就是因為它長期是一個兼任的機制所以是不是才會有台銀這個事情發生我不知道還有沒有其他的未爆彈但是我今天在這邊質詢我就透過我的質詢提醒你\n\n06:40.031 --> 06:46.571\n專任跟兼任在去做打詐主管這件事情對於銀行的內控機制的管理\n\n06:48.576 --> 07:12.287\n是有程度上的差異能不能做得更好就是有程度上的差異所以你不要跟我講說你沒有辦法做是在人為看你有沒有決心當台灣銀行自己做了一個專任的打詐主管找出一個打詐主管是專任的我相信未來整個內控的機制管理監理都一定會做得更好我跟委員報告就是基本上這個案子未發生基本上是發生\n\n07:13.207 --> 07:40.781\n到第一道防線我們在這個因為我今天時間不多因為我還要問主計長但是我只提醒你怎麼樣做得更好我只提醒你工具跟方法但是你要去思考怎麼樣去做兼任的能不能做得更好或者是專任的才可以把事情做好我提醒你把它因為台灣銀行發生這個事情全國都在看如果台灣銀行內控沒做好你怎麼去要求其他公股銀行甚至是民間銀行\n\n07:41.561 --> 07:44.623\n主席,臺灣的通膨已經連續三年超過二我們通常跟央行主管跟您之前討論,超過二就開始人民對於通膨的感受度是非常明顯的\n\n08:08.055 --> 08:34.706\n但是台灣已經過去連續三年通膨已經達到警戒線甚至都超過二那我們現在碰到幾個當然非常大的挑戰國際的問題關稅的問題匯率的操作這都是匯之數好那我看到你二月份上修的預估通膨是達到1.94我要請問主計長這個1.94有沒有計算到今年可能面臨的關稅還有包括我們店家的漲幅\n\n08:36.781 --> 09:05.888\n然後民生用電也會漲到11%工業用電可能漲到6%當然這都還不一定但是這個1.94有沒有把今年水電的漲幅納入考量沒有這目前是沒有沒有的好那如果今年我不知道最後會漲多少了那我們通膨會有沒有可能再上修如果4月份公佈調漲之後你目前有沒有計算過幾個版本我們最後通膨會上修大概多少\n\n09:07.009 --> 09:25.639\n如果有店會有調整的話那這個部分我們大概會做一些上修啦我當然講你一定會上修因為那個數字是很輕你當然要計算但是主計長你應該會有幾個版本你會去建議跟行政院長卓院長溝通說欸調漲5%6%8%11%大概排骨飯未來會多少會漲到多少芋頭飯會多少早餐一個三明治會漲多少你應該有跟他講吧\n\n09:35.024 --> 09:51.092\n我們主計處不是加減數字我們應該也會提供一些政策思考給長官看嘛不是因為這個部分我們主要是我們的評估人會把評估結果送給院長你有送就對了你有提醒他們就對了有送好幾個版本有送幾個版本但是我們沒有針對台電這個我們還沒有去把還沒有對\n\n09:56.435 --> 10:08.923\n主席講這個事情很大條我的意思是說你應該去告訴他漲5%那整個通膨是多少7%是多少11%你們應該有這個版本才對如果到現在還沒算這個版本非常訝異台電要不要漲現在還沒有確定\n\n10:13.686 --> 10:39.667\n我們必須等到它漲了確定之後那漲了就來不及啦漲了就來不及仔細講我再提醒一件事情我再用最後30秒因為我去年問你說我們現在受雇員工的經常性薪資已經是連續三年的負成長好不容易今年調整變成正成長變0.58%所以如果今年的通膨持續維持新高的話那\n\n10:41.549 --> 10:56.197\n我們今年是不是經常性的薪資實質薪資都能夠維持正成長或甚至會變回負責這是去年啦但今年到底狀況你今年還能維持正成長好謝謝好謝謝李雯的質詢我們休息十分鐘\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.37,"end":13.198,"text":"就請財政部的阮政次還有 財政部的阮政次以及我們的主計長主計長先休息一下喝水等一下第二個問題再輪到您主計長先休息一下喝個水"},{"start":17.997,"end":32.725,"text":"上個會期我們在立法院不分黨派修了一個非常重要的法案有共識的法案就是打詐專法但是打詐專法的案件跟金額我關注到從打詐儀表板裡面從3月16號到3月22號"},{"start":36.027,"end":38.449,"text":"我們的詐騙的案件數仍舊有3917件那這個被詐騙的金額仍舊有18億這是光光一個禮拜左右的時間在3月16號到3月22號"},{"start":51.218,"end":78.299,"text":"在1月份我們被詐騙的金額是95億在2月份我們被詐騙的金額高達60億雖然我有關注到一個數字比較去年我們每日被詐騙的金額是4.8億現在可能透過我們修法的努力也好或者是我們的基層員警還有大家接受到有可能被詐騙的訊息現在每天平均可能只有2億"},{"start":79.5,"end":104.021,"text":"但是這次每天全國被詐騙兩億這個數字每一塊錢都是人民的血汗錢我常常在基層跑的時候有一些民眾跟我講說我都不敢跟我家人講但我被詐騙了多少錢有沒有機會追得回來其實有時候我知道困難度非常高但他們非常痛苦"},{"start":104.361,"end":115.792,"text":"也就是說我們要感受到人民的痛苦這件事情我覺得在打造這件事情我們似乎政府還應該做得更多我說到這邊你同意嗎"},{"start":117.438,"end":140.538,"text":"跟委員報告事實上打詐這一部分我們對公股也好或者供應市也好我們這個是我們督導的重點對但是我們似乎可以做的更多我們不是似乎我們應該要做的更多如果說1月份還有95億2月份時間比較短有60億平均每天我們還有2億被詐騙"},{"start":142.728,"end":170.016,"text":"我覺得政府應該要做的是更多的我們應該想辦法看我們有什麼樣的政策工具把打詐這件事情做得更多我相信你應該可以認同我的話但是這次我也關注到一件事情金管會前一陣子祭出史上最重的罰款這裁罰金額高達兩千兩百萬罰的對象是全台灣民眾最信任的我們的台灣銀行 台銀"},{"start":172.779,"end":177.448,"text":"我想這次你應該知道什麼事情台銀的行員自主詐騙集團詐騙民眾的血汗錢"},{"start":182.116,"end":202.587,"text":"而且根據台銀內部我們也有洗錢防治法的示警機制但是我們最後是查到就是查證人員跟主管認為該行員同屬同一個分行就沒有積極查證我們自己政府官員公股銀行做出這樣的事情"},{"start":203.567,"end":214.596,"text":"我們有相關的市井機制但是卻發生這樣的事情這件事情要不要為全國要不要為台英這件事情跟全國人民道歉"},{"start":215.85,"end":242.177,"text":"跟委員包括這個事情發生這發生在台銀的台銀是公股銀行它應該是所有公股銀行的表率在所有不管民間或公股銀行裡面台銀應該是人民最可以信任的單位我應該這麼說譬如說在美國美國銀行是大家可以最信任的單位在台灣銀行是公股銀行的表率是"},{"start":243.178,"end":259.254,"text":"照你說應該做模範,但是卻發生這樣的事情,你認為應不應該為這件事情道歉?我跟委員報告,發生這種事情我們真的是非常遺憾因為他這個內部的相關的同仁除了遺憾之外,應不應該道歉?"},{"start":262.932,"end":287.768,"text":"我是覺得是這樣子因為這兩個同仁我們現在都已經提起公訴而且都已經免職了那麼相關的督導的他們當然有司法這次他們當然有司法的問題但是如果身為台灣銀行我們公股銀行第一表率我們的內控機制都這麼糟糕的話我們監理的機制內控的機制都這麼糟糕我們如何管理其他的公股銀行甚至是民間的銀行"},{"start":289.706,"end":307.737,"text":"所以你到現在還不敢說出我們應該對民眾道歉我們未來會加強管理你只有遺憾兩個字我心裡會覺得非常難過因為每一塊錢我剛剛已經講了都是人民的血汗錢所以你不能道歉這件事情我個人是覺得我更覺得遺憾我也非常的詫異那我就要請問就是說除了檢訟司法之外就是對於這一個個案"},{"start":319.204,"end":335.943,"text":"但是我們財政部跟金管會未來如何加強合作把加強後續的內控機制做得更好譬如說我要請問鄭次我們現在打詐的主管到底是專任還是兼任我們有沒有打詐主管"},{"start":336.704,"end":349.456,"text":"打詐的主管基本上他是按照他的權責就是說有沒有打詐主管這件事你就直接回答有做沒有好有好有那他是專任還是簽任"},{"start":351.953,"end":366.364,"text":"這個他不可能是專任的那我就要說我的看法想法我不知道你為什麼說不能專任但是對於無論洗錢防治法也好或者是專任的打擊詐騙"},{"start":369.987,"end":398.789,"text":"監控的控管這個是需要高度的關注兼任這件事情我有時間我再去做我沒時間我要把我的本份業務做本份業務沒做好我會拖累到整個銀行的整個系統SOP 標準SOP所以就是因為它長期是一個兼任的機制所以是不是才會有台銀這個事情發生我不知道還有沒有其他的未爆彈但是我今天在這邊質詢我就透過我的質詢提醒你"},{"start":400.031,"end":406.571,"text":"專任跟兼任在去做打詐主管這件事情對於銀行的內控機制的管理"},{"start":408.576,"end":432.287,"text":"是有程度上的差異能不能做得更好就是有程度上的差異所以你不要跟我講說你沒有辦法做是在人為看你有沒有決心當台灣銀行自己做了一個專任的打詐主管找出一個打詐主管是專任的我相信未來整個內控的機制管理監理都一定會做得更好我跟委員報告就是基本上這個案子未發生基本上是發生"},{"start":433.207,"end":460.781,"text":"到第一道防線我們在這個因為我今天時間不多因為我還要問主計長但是我只提醒你怎麼樣做得更好我只提醒你工具跟方法但是你要去思考怎麼樣去做兼任的能不能做得更好或者是專任的才可以把事情做好我提醒你把它因為台灣銀行發生這個事情全國都在看如果台灣銀行內控沒做好你怎麼去要求其他公股銀行甚至是民間銀行"},{"start":461.561,"end":464.623,"text":"主席,臺灣的通膨已經連續三年超過二我們通常跟央行主管跟您之前討論,超過二就開始人民對於通膨的感受度是非常明顯的"},{"start":488.055,"end":514.706,"text":"但是台灣已經過去連續三年通膨已經達到警戒線甚至都超過二那我們現在碰到幾個當然非常大的挑戰國際的問題關稅的問題匯率的操作這都是匯之數好那我看到你二月份上修的預估通膨是達到1.94我要請問主計長這個1.94有沒有計算到今年可能面臨的關稅還有包括我們店家的漲幅"},{"start":516.781,"end":545.888,"text":"然後民生用電也會漲到11%工業用電可能漲到6%當然這都還不一定但是這個1.94有沒有把今年水電的漲幅納入考量沒有這目前是沒有沒有的好那如果今年我不知道最後會漲多少了那我們通膨會有沒有可能再上修如果4月份公佈調漲之後你目前有沒有計算過幾個版本我們最後通膨會上修大概多少"},{"start":547.009,"end":565.639,"text":"如果有店會有調整的話那這個部分我們大概會做一些上修啦我當然講你一定會上修因為那個數字是很輕你當然要計算但是主計長你應該會有幾個版本你會去建議跟行政院長 卓院長溝通說欸 調漲5% 6% 8% 11%大概排骨飯未來會多少會漲到多少 芋頭飯會多少早餐一個三明治會漲多少你應該有跟他講吧"},{"start":575.024,"end":591.092,"text":"我們主計處不是加減數字我們應該也會提供一些政策思考給長官看嘛不是因為這個部分我們主要是我們的評估人會把評估結果送給院長你有送就對了你有提醒他們就對了有送好幾個版本有送幾個版本但是我們沒有針對台電這個我們還沒有去把還沒有對"},{"start":596.435,"end":608.923,"text":"主席講這個事情很大條我的意思是說你應該去告訴他漲5%那整個通膨是多少7%是多少 11%你們應該有這個版本才對如果到現在還沒算這個版本非常訝異台電要不要漲現在還沒有確定"},{"start":613.686,"end":639.667,"text":"我們必須等到它漲了確定之後那漲了就來不及啦 漲了就來不及仔細講 我再提醒一件事情我再用最後30秒因為我去年問你說我們現在受雇員工的經常性薪資已經是連續三年的負成長好不容易今年調整變成正成長變0.58%所以如果今年的通膨持續維持新高的話那"},{"start":641.549,"end":656.197,"text":"我們今年是不是經常性的薪資 實質薪資都能夠維持正成長或甚至會變回負責這是去年啦 但今年到底狀況你今年還能維持正成長 好 謝謝好 謝謝李雯的質詢 我們休息十分鐘"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":655,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時47分）感謝召委，我不會延長時間，是不是請財政部阮政次和主計長？"],["主席：請阮政次及主計長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：阮政次，上個會期我們立法院不分黨派修了一個非常重要的法案、有共識的法案，就是打詐專法，但是打詐專法的案件跟金額，根據打詐儀錶板顯示，從3月16號到3月22號，我們的詐騙案件數仍舊有3,917件，被詐騙的金額仍舊有18億，這是光一個禮拜左右的時間。1月份我們被詐騙的金額是95億，在2月份我們被詐騙的金額高達60億。我還有關注到一個數字，去年我們每日被詐騙的金額是4.8億，現在可能透過我們修法的努力，或者是基層員警的努力，還有大家接收到防詐騙的訊息，現在每天平均只有2億，但是政次，全國每天被詐騙2億，每一塊錢都是人民的血汗錢。我常常在基層跑的時候，有一些民眾跟我講說，他都不敢跟家人講他被詐騙了多少錢，有沒有機會追得回來，其實我知道困難度非常高，但他們非常痛苦，我們要感受到人民的痛苦，我覺得在打詐這件事情上，政府似乎還應該做得更多，我說到這邊，你同意嗎？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，事實上打詐這一部分，泛公股或國營事業是我們督導的重點……"],["李委員彥秀：但是我們似乎可以做得更多，不是似乎，而是我們應該要做得更多，如果說1月份還有95億，2月份時間比較短有60億，平均每天還有2億被詐騙，我覺得政府應該要做的是更多的，我們應該想辦法看我們有什麼樣的政策工具，把打詐這件事情做得更多，我相信你應該可以認同我的話。但是，政次，我也關注到一件事情，金管會前一陣子祭出史上最重的罰款，裁罰金額高達2,200萬，罰的對象是全臺灣民眾最信任的我們的臺灣銀行（臺銀），我想政次您應該知道什麼事情？"],["阮次長清華：是，知道。"],["李委員彥秀：臺銀的行員自組詐騙集團詐騙民眾的血汗錢，而且臺銀內部也有洗錢防制法的示警機制，但是我們最後查到，查證人員跟主管認為該行員同屬同一個分行就沒有積極查證，我們自己的公股銀行做出這樣的事情，我們有相關的示警機制，但是卻發生這樣的事情。政次，要不要為臺銀這件事情跟全國人民道歉？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，這個事情發生在臺銀的……"],["李委員彥秀：臺銀是公股銀行，它應該是所有公股銀行的表率，在所有不管民間或公股銀行裡面，臺銀應該是人民最可以信任的單位，我應該這麼說。比如說在美國，美國銀行是大家最信任的單位，在臺灣，臺灣銀行是公股銀行的表率，照理說應該做模範，但是卻發生這樣的事情，你認為應不應該為這件事情道歉？"],["阮次長清華：是。我跟委員報告，發生這種事情，我們真的是非常遺憾，非常遺憾，因為它內部相關的同仁……"],["李委員彥秀：除了遺憾之外，應不應該道歉？"],["阮次長清華：我覺得是這樣子，因為這兩個同仁，我們現在都已經提起公訴，而且都已經免職了，相關的督導……"],["李委員彥秀：政次，他們當然有司法的問題，但是臺灣銀行身為我們公股銀行的第一表率，我們的內控機制都這麼糟糕的話，我們的監理機制、內控機制都這麼糟糕，我們如何管理其他的公股銀行，甚至是民間的銀行？"],["阮次長清華：我們希望……"],["李委員彥秀：所以你到現在還不敢說出：我們應該向民眾道歉，我們未來會加強管理。你只有「遺憾」兩個字，我心裡會覺得非常難過。因為每一塊錢，我剛剛已經講了，都是人民的血汗錢……"],["阮次長清華：完全了解，完全了解，所以這一部分我們也……"],["李委員彥秀：所以，你不能道歉這件事情，我個人更是覺得遺憾，我也非常的詫異。我要請問，除了檢送司法之外，對於這個個案，財政部跟金管會未來如何加強合作，讓後續的內控機制做得更好？譬如說，我要請問政次，現在打詐的主管到底是專任還是兼任？我們有沒有打詐的主管？"],["阮次長清華：打詐的主管，基本上是按照他的權責，就是說……"],["李委員彥秀：有沒有？有沒有打詐的主管這件事，你就直接回答有或沒有。"],["阮次長清華：有，有打詐主管，主管一定是會有的。"],["李委員彥秀：好，有，那他是專任還是兼任？"],["阮次長清華：他不可能是專任，為什麼？因為他的分行裡面……"],["李委員彥秀：好，我知道，政次，那我就要說我的看法、想法。我不知道你為什麼說不能專任，但是對於無論是洗錢防制法也好，或者是專任的打擊詐騙做內部監控的控管，這個是需要高度的關注。如果是兼任，我有時間再去做，我沒有時間，我要先把我的本分業務做好，本分業務沒有做好，我會拖累到整個銀行系統的標準SOP。是不是就是因為它長期是一個兼任的機制，所以才會有臺銀這個事情發生？","我不知道還有沒有其他的未爆彈，但是我今天在這邊就是透過我的質詢提醒你，專任或兼任做打詐主管這件事，對於銀行內控機制的管理是有程度上的差異，能不能做得更好，這個有程度上的差異，所以你不要跟我講說你沒有辦法做，事在人為，看你有沒有決心。當臺灣銀行自己做了一個專任的打詐主管，找出一個打詐主管是專任的，我相信未來整個內控的管理跟監理機制都一定會做得更好。"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，基本上這個案子是發生在第一道防線，我們在銀行業有建立了三道防線……"],["李委員彥秀：政次，我今天時間不多，我還要問主計長。我只是提醒你怎麼樣做得更好，我只是提醒你工具跟方法……"],["阮次長清華：這個部分我們都已經在檢討了。"],["李委員彥秀：但是你要去思考怎麼樣去做，兼任的能不能做得更好，或者是專任的才可以把事情做好？我提醒你，因為臺灣銀行發生這個事情，全國都在看，如果臺灣銀行內控沒做好，你怎麼去要求其他公股銀行甚至是民間銀行？以上，謝謝。時間暫停，我先請主計長。"],["阮次長清華：我們已經要求臺灣銀行一定要落實內稽內控。"],["主席：好，請主計長。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝，請回。","主計長，我們臺灣的通膨已經連續3年超過2%，通常我們跟央行、跟您之前討論，超過2%人民對於通膨的感受度就非常明顯。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["李委員彥秀：但是臺灣過去已經連續3年通膨達到警戒線，甚至都超過2%，我們現在碰到幾個非常大的挑戰，國際的問題、關稅的問題、匯率的操作，這都是未知數，我看到你2月份上修的預估通膨是達到1.94%，我要請問主計長，這個1.94%有沒有計算到今年可能面臨的關稅，還有電價的漲幅，包括民生用電也會漲11%、工業用電可能漲6%？當然這都還不一定。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["李委員彥秀：但是這個1.94%有沒有把今年水電的漲幅納入考量？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前是沒有。"],["李委員彥秀：好，當然我不知道今年最後會漲多少，通膨有沒有可能再上修？如果4月份公布調漲之後，你目前有沒有計算過幾個版本？最後通膨大概會上修多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果電費有調整的話，這個部分我們大概會做一些上修。"],["李委員彥秀：我當然知道你一定會上修，因為那個數字很清楚，你當然要計算，但是主計長，你應該會有幾個版本建議行政院卓院長，溝通調漲5%、6%、8%或11%時，大概排骨飯會漲到多少、蚵仔麵線會漲到多少、早餐一個三明治會漲到多少，你應該有跟他講吧？主計總處不是只有加減數字，應該也會提供一些政策思考給長官嘛。"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，因為這個部分主要是我們的評估，我們會把評估結果送給院長參考。"],["李委員彥秀：你有送就對了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["李委員彥秀：你有提醒他們就對了？有送幾個版本？"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是我們還沒有針對台電去把……"],["李委員彥秀：還沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["李委員彥秀：哇！主計長，這個事情很大條欸！我的意思是你應該去告訴他，漲5%整個通膨是多少、7%是多少、11%是多少，你們應該有這個版本才對啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為台電要不要漲……"],["李委員彥秀：如果到現在還沒送這個版本，我非常訝異。"],["陳主計長淑姿：還沒有確定，我們必須等到它漲了，確定之後……"],["李委員彥秀：漲了就來不及啦！主計長，我再提醒一件事情，我占用最後30秒，因為我去年問你，受僱員工的經常性薪資已經連續3年負成長，好不容易今年調整變成正成長，0.58%，所以如果今年的通膨持續維持新高的話，那我們今年經常性的實質薪資還能夠維持正成長？或者會變成負的？"],["主席：簡要回答就好。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，維持正成長。"],["李委員彥秀：這是去年啦，但是今年的狀況到底……"],["陳主計長淑姿：今年還是一樣，維持正成長。"],["李委員彥秀：你今年還能維持正成長，有信心？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["主席：好，謝謝李委員的質詢，我們休息10分鐘。","休息（10時58分）","繼續開會（11時9分）"],["主席：向委員會報告，下一位請林思銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","吳秉叡","柯建銘","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李彥秀","林思銘","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","顏寬恒","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","吳思瑤","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","葉元之","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":339,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查本院委員王鴻薇等26人、委員林德福等20人、委員賴士葆等20人分別擬具「預\n算法增訂第八十一條之一條文草案」等3案","agenda_id":"1143101_00006"}}}