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\"啊\", \"start\": 374.828, \"end\": 375.508, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 375.508, \"end\": 375.628, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 375.628, \"end\": 375.768, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 375.768, \"end\": 376.149, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"連\"}, {\"word\": \"省\", \"start\": 376.149, \"end\": 376.729, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 376.729, \"end\": 376.869, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 376.869, \"end\": 377.009, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"央\", \"start\": 377.009, \"end\": 377.129, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 377.129, \"end\": 377.289, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 377.289, \"end\": 377.39, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 377.39, \"end\": 377.51, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 377.51, \"end\": 377.59, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 377.59, \"end\": 377.75, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"搞\", \"start\": 377.75, \"end\": 377.87, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 377.87, \"end\": 377.99, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 377.99, \"end\": 378.19, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 378.19, \"end\": 378.33, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 378.33, \"end\": 379.311, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 379.311, \"end\": 379.451, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"身\", \"start\": 379.451, \"end\": 379.691, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 379.691, \"end\": 379.931, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 379.931, \"end\": 380.171, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"華\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 380.171, \"end\": 380.412, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 380.412, \"end\": 380.552, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 380.552, \"end\": 381.552, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 680.223, \"end\": 680.303, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 680.303, \"end\": 680.403, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 680.403, \"end\": 680.423, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,228 --> 00:00:26,987\n主席長請主席長是我個人一向很尊敬您我也是尊敬您謝謝我覺得你身為一位獨立自主的女性我內心表達非常敬重但是我昨天還是昨天前兩天看到新聞看到說您有一個您上了一個是節目嗎還是上了一個宣講的場合\n\n2\n00:00:27,850 --> 00:00:35,964\n是吧參加一個大罷免的活動嘛對吧有吧我不是參加大罷免活動我是在宣講政策是宣講喔\n\n3\n00:00:37,296 --> 00:00:58,778\n我覺得我看著你我看你一上台就拿著稿開始念吧我不知道你念的那句話是就應該是人家寫給你的吧照稿讀啊那我心裡覺得很難過啊就覺得好像是被人家拿一個東西教你念前面那一段啊前面那一段啊說什麼你是怎樣是怎樣我覺得我心裡很感慨啦因為我覺得到底你是去宣講呢還是去亂講啊\n\n4\n00:01:00,103 --> 00:01:24,895\n我主要是在講台上文化法修正的一個困境你身為主計長我對我們的行政官員事實上都一向很尊重那我們這些行政官員尤其是政務官應該要保持一定的高度在我來看都當到國家部會首長都是非常高的位置而且是讓人家敬重的那至少你要去宣講政策當然是行政院要求要去宣講政策職責所在那宣講的內容也應該照這個\n\n5\n00:01:27,856 --> 00:01:47,568\n比較我們來看一下妳說了什麼嘛那妳知道去參加以前妳知道這是民進黨在做這個全台大辦有一個造勢的場合嗎不是因為他們說這是我們政策宣講的一個場合所以妳認為這個是很適合出現的嗎主計官隊來講各地的主辦都很中立的角色啊\n\n6\n00:01:48,914 --> 00:02:09,575\n你覺得你適合參加嗎所以你不知道他是罷免的場合就對了因為他們在那邊講罷免啊有人上去演啊罷免啊重點是宣導政策所以你認為你是去宣導政策不是說去講反罷免這個事你沒有這樣的想法所以你身為主席連這種基本的判斷能力也沒有就對了\n\n7\n00:02:10,416 --> 00:02:37,879\n不是沒有而是認為說我不是這樣子我們來看一下你現場提供的資料好不好我們來看你提供的資料正不正確你宣講有沒有像你看這個你現場提供的三立的報導金省前跟金省後這是你在人民市頭加的政策宣講原來金省前28財化法的這是財化法這個稅率劃分情形之前是28.9直銷三縣市台灣省政府是11嘛中央政府是60.1嘛那金省後\n\n8\n00:02:38,699 --> 00:03:00,136\n這個您提供24.6%省政委的部分是11%中央政委的部分是64.4%這個是你做的表沒錯吧是那這個表裡頭我想請問你你做這個表的意思是說經審前跟經審後因為你看71.1%跟75.4%嘛所以中央只有增加4%的意思是嗎\n\n9\n00:03:01,158 --> 00:03:28,877\n我的意思是說這個部分必須考量原來台灣省政府的業務的部分當初我們中央是有承接雖然收入有承接但是支出同樣有承接是是那這是講收入我先討論收入的部分我知道支出都當然有承接那所以你們這個你做這個表嘛把這個畫起來左邊是71.1右邊是75.4那意思是說中央只增加了4點多的收入是嗎\n\n10\n00:03:30,097 --> 00:03:56,907\n對中央就是說等於說地方他減少了4點多的一個收入就經省後地方只有減少4點多嘛對所以在你這個表格裡頭省政府是屬於中央嘛對不對因為省政府的業務後來劃歸到在你這個表格因為我們說左邊經省錢啦在你的裡頭省政府也算中央的是是嗎好下一頁來中華民國憲法第108條省政府是中央海地方\n\n11\n00:03:59,124 --> 00:04:14,522\n按照憲法規範你身為中華民國主席長中華民國憲法第108條中央是中央地方業務包括什麼省市省政府縣市政府所以你這個表格是我覺得是意圖在這個誤導民眾啊\n\n12\n00:04:17,418 --> 00:04:30,777\n我是針對整個一個稅務裁員你用這個表格我知道但是我知道你把那弄很清楚但你把它弄成71.1好像是只有增加4%地方減少那麼少地方好像只減少4%但事實上就是不是這樣子\n\n13\n00:04:32,503 --> 00:04:58,965\n你這個誇號像精神前中央只增加不到5%然後你把精神前省也算成中央這個是在欺騙百姓因為你是行政官員你當初宣誓的時候是宣誓是按照中華民國憲法宣誓要遵守憲法所以在百姓宣導證的時候你必須要合憲合法你現在馬上到旁邊的幕僚把他給我翻中華民國憲法第108條省算是中央海地方\n\n14\n00:05:00,291 --> 00:05:27,638\n因為經省以後他的業務是移到中央來辦的沒錯嘛那錢也是移過來嘛所以地方的錢是變少嘛地方的錢也變少嘛沒錯嘛我的意思是說你要講說因為茶葉法我是主審的我非常了解你要說地方的中央事情變多錢變多事情也變多那現在如果茶葉法要這樣畫那我們也必須要把這個一些事權下放這點我都同意我也都尊重\n\n15\n00:05:28,038 --> 00:05:47,204\n所以我在這裡一直在講說那內政部提出哪些事權要下放的法律修改啊交通部經濟部各個部會覺得哪些部會有些事情既然前面採劃法分給地方那地方多做一點把事權劃出來啊我請各個部會提出相關的修法這個是各個部會應該提出他們沒做嘛對不對\n\n16\n00:05:48,064 --> 00:06:08,423\n他們必須這樣做嘛那你們主計處跟財政部也應該提出你們的版本是你們一直不願意提出版本嘛我們苦等再等一等再等從六月份等到九月份再從九月份等到十二月份都沒有我們就只好修法嘛我們不是不願意說等你們有版本吧\n\n17\n00:06:09,224 --> 00:06:26,436\n那因為可是我是在說當你身為一個政務官下鄉去宣講的時候你要講正確的觀念啊比如你連省是中央還是地方你都搞不清楚嘛你身為一個中華民國的主計長連中華民國憲法的明白規定的中央跟地方的權限都沒有弄清楚嘛\n\n18\n00:06:27,156 --> 00:06:52,583\n妳說我有沒有說錯啊我現在是在談業務的部分對對對沒有啦妳要宣講妳要給百姓正確的觀念嘛但是妳要給百姓正確的觀念嘛是謝謝不過妳連中華民國憲法都不了解妳還是依照中華民國憲法宣示的主計長啊那我再請教妳所以我請說您宣講的時候準備材料的時候我寧願喔站在我的立場以我對您的尊敬我寧願相信妳是被誤導啦我真的是寧願這樣相信啊\n\n19\n00:06:54,403 --> 00:07:17,738\n好那請教現在那個我們以前一直有提到一個什麼就是地方的這個自籌款跟那個中央的這種就在補助的時候一些款項比例就像財力分級的自籌款的比例對吧有分一級二級三級四級五級每一級有不同的規定比如說台北市第一級連江第五級那自籌款比例會不一樣沒錯吧\n\n20\n00:07:19,715 --> 00:07:20,737\n對因為財源改變請問哪個等級是地方要自籌50%\n\n21\n00:07:25,816 --> 00:07:55,060\n哪一個等級這個部分目前沒有現在正在研議當中沒有現在沒有嘛對不對沒有嘛齁那為什麼金門縣政府收到這個有部會的這個公文說這個補助款下去地方請地方自籌50%這個依法有據嗎我們整個目前正在檢討當中對你在檢討還沒有下公文嘛對不對還沒有你還在檢討但是有部會喔已經提出這樣的公文給地方政府喔說下去你們的這個自籌款要準備50%喔這個是依法有據的公文嗎\n\n22\n00:07:56,758 --> 00:08:17,564\n還是在恐嚇地方的公文啊沒有嘛還沒有這樣規定出來對不對我們主計總署是沒有下這個公文對我不是說你主計總署我知道我相信主計總署會依法辦事雖然你沒有熟讀那個憲法不了解這個也被誤導好不好我就認為你被誤導我在地方聽到這個齁我們基本原來第三級嘛要負擔三成啦約三成啦\n\n23\n00:08:19,344 --> 00:08:41,551\n現在有部會要求到第五層有要求到五層請你確實沒有這件事情對不對確實也沒有這個要求對不對目前是我們沒有做這樣的要求你們自己沒有你有沒有要求其他部會這樣做沒有沒有嘛如果真的沒有要對外澄清不然請你要詢問給各個部會啊他們怎麼可以不依法行政啊現在中央單位都可以亂套喔\n\n24\n00:08:43,007 --> 00:09:00,737\n想要發文說五成就五成,想要給地方說你七成就七成,可以這樣子嗎?補助都是要依法行政啊院長在院會裡面有說明說補助款的部分先行凍結50%我說的是自籌款的部分嘛所有東西要依法行政嘛\n\n25\n00:09:03,839 --> 00:09:23,814\n我說的不是現在這個我說的是比如說你有個計畫上來嘛對不對你本來是7比3嘛你現在竟然要求人家50嘛這是不對的嘛因為你們還沒有修你們不能這樣做吧你們是不是要依法行政我們沒有這樣子修我不是說你啦你沒有問題我不是說主計是你們既然沒有修其他各部會你應該發文給各個部會啊\n\n26\n00:09:26,626 --> 00:09:50,728\n因為你們每個部會都有主計人員啊如果有的部會沒這樣做這樣他是不是違法不是因為現在是院長是說先凍結我知道你說的是那個那是因為114年度被刪減的情形要做調停我知道你說的是什麼我說但是我們財化法還沒有實施喔對財化法還沒有實施喔這是另外一件事對不對這兩件事嘛所以我現在說的是自籌款的部分嘛我是可以請你跟各個部會通令啊\n\n27\n00:09:52,057 --> 00:10:05,595\n才化如果以後你要改成說要比例可能要調整你們會考慮那當然你們後面應該依法做嘛現在還沒有以前你們部應該這樣做是不是要通令你要請你的主計人員在各個部會的啊問他各個部會有沒有做這樣違法的事情這是違法欸\n\n28\n00:10:07,036 --> 00:10:31,677\n難道可以一個部長我隨便舉例隨便隨便某某部長就是說我比較喜歡某個縣市我就要求他這個只要自籌20%我最討厭這個縣市他就要加到70%不可以嘛政府有法令對不對所以你是不是要通令我要求啦通令請各個單位要按照現在的法令行政嘛現在有財力分級嘛對吧是不是可以這樣做\n\n29\n00:10:33,683 --> 00:10:40,202\n這個部分因為是行政院規範的不是我所以這個部分我們也可以向行政院來說明清楚\n\n30\n00:10:43,255 --> 00:11:06,453\n其他部會違法你們裡面主計的人不用追究嗎那我要求一件事就好了好不好你請幫我了解給我資料各個部會因為你們都有主計的人有哪些部會做了這樣的事情違法要求地方給比較多超過原來他財力分級的部分一個月給我各個部會的資料你聽得懂我在說什麼嗎你去查你去查給我\n\n31\n00:11:07,674 --> 00:11:20,423\n妳知道我意思嗎因為比如說金門本來是三級啊妳查金門的就好了本來是三級七比三結果妳去問看有沒有哪個部位妳幫我問有哪個部位給這樣子一個月給我一個月給妳報告給我們蔡委員好謝謝陳委員的諮詢下一位請黃珊珊委員諮詢請妳等一下找我一下\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n228\t26987\t主席長 請主席長 是我個人一向很尊敬您我也是尊敬您 謝謝我覺得你身為一位獨立自主的女性我內心表達非常敬重但是我昨天 還是昨天 前兩天看到新聞看到說您有一個 您上了一個是節目嗎 還是上了一個宣講的場合\n27850\t35964\t是吧 參加一個大罷免的活動嘛對吧 有吧我不是參加大罷免活動我是在宣講政策是宣講喔\n37296\t58778\t我覺得我看著你 我看你一上台就拿著稿開始念吧我不知道你念的那句話是 就應該是人家寫給你的吧照稿讀啊 那我心裡覺得很難過啊就覺得好像是被人家拿一個東西教你念前面那一段啊 前面那一段啊 說什麼你是怎樣是怎樣我覺得我心裡很感慨啦因為我覺得到底你是去宣講呢 還是去亂講啊\n60103\t84895\t我主要是在講台上文化法修正的一個困境你身為主計長我對我們的行政官員事實上都一向很尊重那我們這些行政官員尤其是政務官應該要保持一定的高度在我來看都當到國家部會首長都是非常高的位置而且是讓人家敬重的那至少你要去宣講政策當然是行政院要求要去宣講政策職責所在那宣講的內容也應該照這個\n87856\t107568\t比較 我們來看一下妳說了什麼嘛那妳知道去參加以前 妳知道這是民進黨在做這個全台大辦有一個造勢的場合嗎不是 因為他們說這是我們政策宣講的一個場合所以妳認為這個是很適合出現的嗎主計官隊來講 各地的主辦都很中立的角色啊\n108914\t129575\t你覺得你適合參加嗎所以你不知道他是罷免的場合就對了因為他們在那邊講罷免啊有人上去演啊罷免啊重點是宣導政策所以你認為你是去宣導政策不是說去講反罷免這個事你沒有這樣的想法所以你身為主席連這種基本的判斷能力也沒有就對了\n130416\t157879\t不是沒有 而是認為說我不是這樣子我們來看一下你現場提供的資料好不好我們來看你提供的資料正不正確你宣講有沒有像你看這個你現場提供的三立的報導金省前跟金省後這是你在人民市頭加的政策宣講原來金省前28財化法的這是財化法這個稅率劃分情形之前是28.9直銷三縣市台灣省政府是11嘛中央政府是60.1嘛那金省後\n158699\t180136\t這個您提供24.6% 省政委的部分是11% 中央政委的部分是64.4%這個是你做的表沒錯吧 是那這個表裡頭 我想請問你你做這個表的意思是說 經審前跟經審後 因為你看71.1%跟75.4%嘛所以中央只有增加4%的意思是嗎\n181158\t208877\t我的意思是說這個部分必須考量原來台灣省政府的業務的部分當初我們中央是有承接雖然收入有承接但是支出同樣有承接是是那這是講收入我先討論收入的部分我知道支出都當然有承接那所以你們這個你做這個表嘛把這個畫起來左邊是71.1右邊是75.4那意思是說中央只增加了4點多的收入是嗎\n210097\t236907\t對中央就是說等於說地方他減少了4點多的一個收入就經省後地方只有減少4點多嘛對所以在你這個表格裡頭省政府是屬於中央嘛對不對因為省政府的業務後來劃歸到在你這個表格因為我們說左邊經省錢啦在你的裡頭省政府也算中央的是是嗎好下一頁來中華民國憲法第108條省政府是中央海地方\n239124\t254522\t按照憲法規範你身為中華民國主席長中華民國憲法第108條中央是中央地方業務包括什麼省市省政府縣市政府所以你這個表格是我覺得是意圖在這個誤導民眾啊\n257418\t270777\t我是針對整個一個稅務裁員你用這個表格我知道但是我知道你把那弄很清楚但你把它弄成71.1好像是只有增加4%地方減少那麼少地方好像只減少4%但事實上就是不是這樣子\n272503\t298965\t你這個誇號像精神前中央只增加不到5%然後你把精神前省也算成中央這個是在欺騙百姓因為你是行政官員你當初宣誓的時候是宣誓是按照中華民國憲法宣誓要遵守憲法所以在百姓宣導證的時候你必須要合憲合法你現在馬上到旁邊的幕僚把他給我翻中華民國憲法第108條省算是中央海地方\n300291\t327638\t因為經省以後他的業務是移到中央來辦的沒錯嘛 那錢也是移過來嘛所以地方的錢是變少嘛地方的錢也變少嘛 沒錯嘛我的意思是說 你要講說因為茶葉法我是主審的 我非常了解你要說地方的中央事情變多 錢變多 事情也變多那現在如果茶葉法要這樣畫那我們也必須要把這個一些事權下放這點我都同意 我也都尊重\n328038\t347204\t所以我在這裡一直在講說那內政部提出哪些事權要下放的法律修改啊交通部經濟部各個部會覺得哪些部會有些事情既然前面採劃法分給地方那地方多做一點把事權劃出來啊我請各個部會提出相關的修法這個是各個部會應該提出他們沒做嘛對不對\n348064\t368423\t他們必須這樣做嘛 那你們主計處跟財政部也應該提出你們的版本是你們一直不願意提出版本嘛 我們苦等再等 一等再等從六月份等到九月份 再從九月份等到十二月份 都沒有 我們就只好修法嘛我們不是不願意說等你們有版本吧\n369224\t386436\t那因為可是我是在說當你身為一個政務官下鄉去宣講的時候你要講正確的觀念啊比如你連省是中央還是地方你都搞不清楚嘛你身為一個中華民國的主計長連中華民國憲法的明白規定的中央跟地方的權限都沒有弄清楚嘛\n387156\t412583\t妳說我有沒有說錯啊我現在是在談業務的部分對對對 沒有啦妳要宣講 妳要給百姓正確的觀念嘛但是妳要給百姓正確的觀念嘛是 謝謝不過妳連中華民國憲法都不了解妳還是依照中華民國憲法宣示的主計長啊那我再請教妳所以我請說 您宣講的時候準備材料的時候我寧願喔 站在我的立場以我對您的尊敬我寧願相信妳是被誤導啦我真的是寧願這樣相信啊\n414403\t437738\t好 那請教現在那個我們以前一直有提到一個什麼就是地方的這個自籌款跟那個中央的這種就在補助的時候一些款項比例就像財力分級的自籌款的比例 對吧有分一級 二級 三級 四級 五級每一級有不同的規定比如說台北市第一級 連江第五級那自籌款比例會不一樣 沒錯吧\n439715\t440737\t對 因為財源改變請問哪個等級是地方要自籌50%\n445816\t475060\t哪一個等級這個部分目前沒有現在正在研議當中沒有現在沒有嘛對不對沒有嘛齁那為什麼金門縣政府收到這個有部會的這個公文說這個補助款下去地方請地方自籌50%這個依法有據嗎我們整個目前正在檢討當中對你在檢討還沒有下公文嘛對不對還沒有你還在檢討但是有部會喔已經提出這樣的公文給地方政府喔說下去你們的這個自籌款要準備50%喔這個是依法有據的公文嗎\n476758\t497564\t還是在恐嚇地方的公文啊沒有嘛 還沒有這樣規定出來對不對我們主計總署是沒有下這個公文對 我不是說你主計總署我知道 我相信主計總署會依法辦事雖然你沒有熟讀那個憲法不了解這個也被誤導 好不好我就認為你被誤導我在地方聽到這個齁我們基本原來第三級嘛要負擔三成啦 約三成啦\n499344\t521551\t現在有部會要求到第五層有要求到五層請你 確實沒有這件事情對不對確實也沒有這個要求對不對目前是我們沒有做這樣的要求你們自己沒有 你有沒有要求其他部會這樣做沒有沒有嘛 如果真的沒有要對外澄清不然請你要詢問給各個部會啊他們怎麼可以不依法行政啊現在中央單位都可以亂套喔\n523007\t540737\t想要發文說五成就五成,想要給地方說你七成就七成,可以這樣子嗎?補助都是要依法行政啊院長在院會裡面有說明說補助款的部分先行凍結50%我說的是自籌款的部分嘛所有東西要依法行政嘛\n543839\t563814\t我說的不是現在這個 我說的是比如說你有個計畫上來嘛 對不對你本來是7比3嘛 你現在竟然要求人家50嘛這是不對的嘛 因為你們還沒有修 你們不能這樣做吧你們是不是要依法行政我們沒有這樣子修我不是說你啦 你沒有問題 我不是說主計是你們既然沒有修 其他各部會 你應該發文給各個部會啊\n566626\t590728\t因為你們每個部會都有主計人員啊如果有的部會沒這樣做這樣他是不是違法不是因為現在是院長是說先凍結我知道你說的是那個那是因為114年度被刪減的情形要做調停我知道你說的是什麼我說但是我們財化法還沒有實施喔對財化法還沒有實施喔這是另外一件事對不對這兩件事嘛所以我現在說的是自籌款的部分嘛我是可以請你跟各個部會通令啊\n592057\t605595\t才化如果以後你要改成說要比例可能要調整你們會考慮那當然你們後面應該依法做嘛現在還沒有以前你們部應該這樣做是不是要通令你要請你的主計人員在各個部會的啊問他各個部會有沒有做這樣違法的事情這是違法欸\n607036\t631677\t難道可以一個部長我隨便舉例隨便隨便某某部長就是說我比較喜歡某個縣市我就要求他這個只要自籌20%我最討厭這個縣市他就要加到70%不可以嘛政府有法令對不對所以你是不是要通令我要求啦通令請各個單位要按照現在的法令行政嘛現在有財力分級嘛對吧是不是可以這樣做\n633683\t640202\t這個部分因為是行政院規範的不是我所以這個部分我們也可以向行政院來說明清楚\n643255\t666453\t其他部會違法你們裡面主計的人不用追究嗎那我要求一件事就好了好不好你請幫我了解給我資料各個部會因為你們都有主計的人有哪些部會做了這樣的事情違法要求地方給比較多超過原來他財力分級的部分一個月給我各個部會的資料你聽得懂我在說什麼嗎你去查你去查給我\n667674\t680423\t妳知道我意思嗎因為比如說金門本來是三級啊妳查金門的就好了本來是三級七比三結果妳去問看有沒有哪個部位 妳幫我問有哪個部位給這樣子一個月給我一個月給妳報告給我們蔡委員好 謝謝陳委員的諮詢下一位請黃珊珊委員諮詢 請妳等一下找我一下\n","txt":"主席長 請主席長 是我個人一向很尊敬您我也是尊敬您 謝謝我覺得你身為一位獨立自主的女性我內心表達非常敬重但是我昨天 還是昨天 前兩天看到新聞看到說您有一個 您上了一個是節目嗎 還是上了一個宣講的場合\n是吧 參加一個大罷免的活動嘛對吧 有吧我不是參加大罷免活動我是在宣講政策是宣講喔\n我覺得我看著你 我看你一上台就拿著稿開始念吧我不知道你念的那句話是 就應該是人家寫給你的吧照稿讀啊 那我心裡覺得很難過啊就覺得好像是被人家拿一個東西教你念前面那一段啊 前面那一段啊 說什麼你是怎樣是怎樣我覺得我心裡很感慨啦因為我覺得到底你是去宣講呢 還是去亂講啊\n我主要是在講台上文化法修正的一個困境你身為主計長我對我們的行政官員事實上都一向很尊重那我們這些行政官員尤其是政務官應該要保持一定的高度在我來看都當到國家部會首長都是非常高的位置而且是讓人家敬重的那至少你要去宣講政策當然是行政院要求要去宣講政策職責所在那宣講的內容也應該照這個\n比較 我們來看一下妳說了什麼嘛那妳知道去參加以前 妳知道這是民進黨在做這個全台大辦有一個造勢的場合嗎不是 因為他們說這是我們政策宣講的一個場合所以妳認為這個是很適合出現的嗎主計官隊來講 各地的主辦都很中立的角色啊\n你覺得你適合參加嗎所以你不知道他是罷免的場合就對了因為他們在那邊講罷免啊有人上去演啊罷免啊重點是宣導政策所以你認為你是去宣導政策不是說去講反罷免這個事你沒有這樣的想法所以你身為主席連這種基本的判斷能力也沒有就對了\n不是沒有 而是認為說我不是這樣子我們來看一下你現場提供的資料好不好我們來看你提供的資料正不正確你宣講有沒有像你看這個你現場提供的三立的報導金省前跟金省後這是你在人民市頭加的政策宣講原來金省前28財化法的這是財化法這個稅率劃分情形之前是28.9直銷三縣市台灣省政府是11嘛中央政府是60.1嘛那金省後\n這個您提供24.6% 省政委的部分是11% 中央政委的部分是64.4%這個是你做的表沒錯吧 是那這個表裡頭 我想請問你你做這個表的意思是說 經審前跟經審後 因為你看71.1%跟75.4%嘛所以中央只有增加4%的意思是嗎\n我的意思是說這個部分必須考量原來台灣省政府的業務的部分當初我們中央是有承接雖然收入有承接但是支出同樣有承接是是那這是講收入我先討論收入的部分我知道支出都當然有承接那所以你們這個你做這個表嘛把這個畫起來左邊是71.1右邊是75.4那意思是說中央只增加了4點多的收入是嗎\n對中央就是說等於說地方他減少了4點多的一個收入就經省後地方只有減少4點多嘛對所以在你這個表格裡頭省政府是屬於中央嘛對不對因為省政府的業務後來劃歸到在你這個表格因為我們說左邊經省錢啦在你的裡頭省政府也算中央的是是嗎好下一頁來中華民國憲法第108條省政府是中央海地方\n按照憲法規範你身為中華民國主席長中華民國憲法第108條中央是中央地方業務包括什麼省市省政府縣市政府所以你這個表格是我覺得是意圖在這個誤導民眾啊\n我是針對整個一個稅務裁員你用這個表格我知道但是我知道你把那弄很清楚但你把它弄成71.1好像是只有增加4%地方減少那麼少地方好像只減少4%但事實上就是不是這樣子\n你這個誇號像精神前中央只增加不到5%然後你把精神前省也算成中央這個是在欺騙百姓因為你是行政官員你當初宣誓的時候是宣誓是按照中華民國憲法宣誓要遵守憲法所以在百姓宣導證的時候你必須要合憲合法你現在馬上到旁邊的幕僚把他給我翻中華民國憲法第108條省算是中央海地方\n因為經省以後他的業務是移到中央來辦的沒錯嘛 那錢也是移過來嘛所以地方的錢是變少嘛地方的錢也變少嘛 沒錯嘛我的意思是說 你要講說因為茶葉法我是主審的 我非常了解你要說地方的中央事情變多 錢變多 事情也變多那現在如果茶葉法要這樣畫那我們也必須要把這個一些事權下放這點我都同意 我也都尊重\n所以我在這裡一直在講說那內政部提出哪些事權要下放的法律修改啊交通部經濟部各個部會覺得哪些部會有些事情既然前面採劃法分給地方那地方多做一點把事權劃出來啊我請各個部會提出相關的修法這個是各個部會應該提出他們沒做嘛對不對\n他們必須這樣做嘛 那你們主計處跟財政部也應該提出你們的版本是你們一直不願意提出版本嘛 我們苦等再等 一等再等從六月份等到九月份 再從九月份等到十二月份 都沒有 我們就只好修法嘛我們不是不願意說等你們有版本吧\n那因為可是我是在說當你身為一個政務官下鄉去宣講的時候你要講正確的觀念啊比如你連省是中央還是地方你都搞不清楚嘛你身為一個中華民國的主計長連中華民國憲法的明白規定的中央跟地方的權限都沒有弄清楚嘛\n妳說我有沒有說錯啊我現在是在談業務的部分對對對 沒有啦妳要宣講 妳要給百姓正確的觀念嘛但是妳要給百姓正確的觀念嘛是 謝謝不過妳連中華民國憲法都不了解妳還是依照中華民國憲法宣示的主計長啊那我再請教妳所以我請說 您宣講的時候準備材料的時候我寧願喔 站在我的立場以我對您的尊敬我寧願相信妳是被誤導啦我真的是寧願這樣相信啊\n好 那請教現在那個我們以前一直有提到一個什麼就是地方的這個自籌款跟那個中央的這種就在補助的時候一些款項比例就像財力分級的自籌款的比例 對吧有分一級 二級 三級 四級 五級每一級有不同的規定比如說台北市第一級 連江第五級那自籌款比例會不一樣 沒錯吧\n對 因為財源改變請問哪個等級是地方要自籌50%\n哪一個等級這個部分目前沒有現在正在研議當中沒有現在沒有嘛對不對沒有嘛齁那為什麼金門縣政府收到這個有部會的這個公文說這個補助款下去地方請地方自籌50%這個依法有據嗎我們整個目前正在檢討當中對你在檢討還沒有下公文嘛對不對還沒有你還在檢討但是有部會喔已經提出這樣的公文給地方政府喔說下去你們的這個自籌款要準備50%喔這個是依法有據的公文嗎\n還是在恐嚇地方的公文啊沒有嘛 還沒有這樣規定出來對不對我們主計總署是沒有下這個公文對 我不是說你主計總署我知道 我相信主計總署會依法辦事雖然你沒有熟讀那個憲法不了解這個也被誤導 好不好我就認為你被誤導我在地方聽到這個齁我們基本原來第三級嘛要負擔三成啦 約三成啦\n現在有部會要求到第五層有要求到五層請你 確實沒有這件事情對不對確實也沒有這個要求對不對目前是我們沒有做這樣的要求你們自己沒有 你有沒有要求其他部會這樣做沒有沒有嘛 如果真的沒有要對外澄清不然請你要詢問給各個部會啊他們怎麼可以不依法行政啊現在中央單位都可以亂套喔\n想要發文說五成就五成,想要給地方說你七成就七成,可以這樣子嗎?補助都是要依法行政啊院長在院會裡面有說明說補助款的部分先行凍結50%我說的是自籌款的部分嘛所有東西要依法行政嘛\n我說的不是現在這個 我說的是比如說你有個計畫上來嘛 對不對你本來是7比3嘛 你現在竟然要求人家50嘛這是不對的嘛 因為你們還沒有修 你們不能這樣做吧你們是不是要依法行政我們沒有這樣子修我不是說你啦 你沒有問題 我不是說主計是你們既然沒有修 其他各部會 你應該發文給各個部會啊\n因為你們每個部會都有主計人員啊如果有的部會沒這樣做這樣他是不是違法不是因為現在是院長是說先凍結我知道你說的是那個那是因為114年度被刪減的情形要做調停我知道你說的是什麼我說但是我們財化法還沒有實施喔對財化法還沒有實施喔這是另外一件事對不對這兩件事嘛所以我現在說的是自籌款的部分嘛我是可以請你跟各個部會通令啊\n才化如果以後你要改成說要比例可能要調整你們會考慮那當然你們後面應該依法做嘛現在還沒有以前你們部應該這樣做是不是要通令你要請你的主計人員在各個部會的啊問他各個部會有沒有做這樣違法的事情這是違法欸\n難道可以一個部長我隨便舉例隨便隨便某某部長就是說我比較喜歡某個縣市我就要求他這個只要自籌20%我最討厭這個縣市他就要加到70%不可以嘛政府有法令對不對所以你是不是要通令我要求啦通令請各個單位要按照現在的法令行政嘛現在有財力分級嘛對吧是不是可以這樣做\n這個部分因為是行政院規範的不是我所以這個部分我們也可以向行政院來說明清楚\n其他部會違法你們裡面主計的人不用追究嗎那我要求一件事就好了好不好你請幫我了解給我資料各個部會因為你們都有主計的人有哪些部會做了這樣的事情違法要求地方給比較多超過原來他財力分級的部分一個月給我各個部會的資料你聽得懂我在說什麼嗎你去查你去查給我\n妳知道我意思嗎因為比如說金門本來是三級啊妳查金門的就好了本來是三級七比三結果妳去問看有沒有哪個部位 妳幫我問有哪個部位給這樣子一個月給我一個月給妳報告給我們蔡委員好 謝謝陳委員的諮詢下一位請黃珊珊委員諮詢 請妳等一下找我一下\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.228 --> 00:26.987\n主席長請主席長是我個人一向很尊敬您我也是尊敬您謝謝我覺得你身為一位獨立自主的女性我內心表達非常敬重但是我昨天還是昨天前兩天看到新聞看到說您有一個您上了一個是節目嗎還是上了一個宣講的場合\n\n00:27.850 --> 00:35.964\n是吧參加一個大罷免的活動嘛對吧有吧我不是參加大罷免活動我是在宣講政策是宣講喔\n\n00:37.296 --> 00:58.778\n我覺得我看著你我看你一上台就拿著稿開始念吧我不知道你念的那句話是就應該是人家寫給你的吧照稿讀啊那我心裡覺得很難過啊就覺得好像是被人家拿一個東西教你念前面那一段啊前面那一段啊說什麼你是怎樣是怎樣我覺得我心裡很感慨啦因為我覺得到底你是去宣講呢還是去亂講啊\n\n01:00.103 --> 01:24.895\n我主要是在講台上文化法修正的一個困境你身為主計長我對我們的行政官員事實上都一向很尊重那我們這些行政官員尤其是政務官應該要保持一定的高度在我來看都當到國家部會首長都是非常高的位置而且是讓人家敬重的那至少你要去宣講政策當然是行政院要求要去宣講政策職責所在那宣講的內容也應該照這個\n\n01:27.856 --> 01:47.568\n比較我們來看一下妳說了什麼嘛那妳知道去參加以前妳知道這是民進黨在做這個全台大辦有一個造勢的場合嗎不是因為他們說這是我們政策宣講的一個場合所以妳認為這個是很適合出現的嗎主計官隊來講各地的主辦都很中立的角色啊\n\n01:48.914 --> 02:09.575\n你覺得你適合參加嗎所以你不知道他是罷免的場合就對了因為他們在那邊講罷免啊有人上去演啊罷免啊重點是宣導政策所以你認為你是去宣導政策不是說去講反罷免這個事你沒有這樣的想法所以你身為主席連這種基本的判斷能力也沒有就對了\n\n02:10.416 --> 02:37.879\n不是沒有而是認為說我不是這樣子我們來看一下你現場提供的資料好不好我們來看你提供的資料正不正確你宣講有沒有像你看這個你現場提供的三立的報導金省前跟金省後這是你在人民市頭加的政策宣講原來金省前28財化法的這是財化法這個稅率劃分情形之前是28.9直銷三縣市台灣省政府是11嘛中央政府是60.1嘛那金省後\n\n02:38.699 --> 03:00.136\n這個您提供24.6%省政委的部分是11%中央政委的部分是64.4%這個是你做的表沒錯吧是那這個表裡頭我想請問你你做這個表的意思是說經審前跟經審後因為你看71.1%跟75.4%嘛所以中央只有增加4%的意思是嗎\n\n03:01.158 --> 03:28.877\n我的意思是說這個部分必須考量原來台灣省政府的業務的部分當初我們中央是有承接雖然收入有承接但是支出同樣有承接是是那這是講收入我先討論收入的部分我知道支出都當然有承接那所以你們這個你做這個表嘛把這個畫起來左邊是71.1右邊是75.4那意思是說中央只增加了4點多的收入是嗎\n\n03:30.097 --> 03:56.907\n對中央就是說等於說地方他減少了4點多的一個收入就經省後地方只有減少4點多嘛對所以在你這個表格裡頭省政府是屬於中央嘛對不對因為省政府的業務後來劃歸到在你這個表格因為我們說左邊經省錢啦在你的裡頭省政府也算中央的是是嗎好下一頁來中華民國憲法第108條省政府是中央海地方\n\n03:59.124 --> 04:14.522\n按照憲法規範你身為中華民國主席長中華民國憲法第108條中央是中央地方業務包括什麼省市省政府縣市政府所以你這個表格是我覺得是意圖在這個誤導民眾啊\n\n04:17.418 --> 04:30.777\n我是針對整個一個稅務裁員你用這個表格我知道但是我知道你把那弄很清楚但你把它弄成71.1好像是只有增加4%地方減少那麼少地方好像只減少4%但事實上就是不是這樣子\n\n04:32.503 --> 04:58.965\n你這個誇號像精神前中央只增加不到5%然後你把精神前省也算成中央這個是在欺騙百姓因為你是行政官員你當初宣誓的時候是宣誓是按照中華民國憲法宣誓要遵守憲法所以在百姓宣導證的時候你必須要合憲合法你現在馬上到旁邊的幕僚把他給我翻中華民國憲法第108條省算是中央海地方\n\n05:00.291 --> 05:27.638\n因為經省以後他的業務是移到中央來辦的沒錯嘛那錢也是移過來嘛所以地方的錢是變少嘛地方的錢也變少嘛沒錯嘛我的意思是說你要講說因為茶葉法我是主審的我非常了解你要說地方的中央事情變多錢變多事情也變多那現在如果茶葉法要這樣畫那我們也必須要把這個一些事權下放這點我都同意我也都尊重\n\n05:28.038 --> 05:47.204\n所以我在這裡一直在講說那內政部提出哪些事權要下放的法律修改啊交通部經濟部各個部會覺得哪些部會有些事情既然前面採劃法分給地方那地方多做一點把事權劃出來啊我請各個部會提出相關的修法這個是各個部會應該提出他們沒做嘛對不對\n\n05:48.064 --> 06:08.423\n他們必須這樣做嘛那你們主計處跟財政部也應該提出你們的版本是你們一直不願意提出版本嘛我們苦等再等一等再等從六月份等到九月份再從九月份等到十二月份都沒有我們就只好修法嘛我們不是不願意說等你們有版本吧\n\n06:09.224 --> 06:26.436\n那因為可是我是在說當你身為一個政務官下鄉去宣講的時候你要講正確的觀念啊比如你連省是中央還是地方你都搞不清楚嘛你身為一個中華民國的主計長連中華民國憲法的明白規定的中央跟地方的權限都沒有弄清楚嘛\n\n06:27.156 --> 06:52.583\n妳說我有沒有說錯啊我現在是在談業務的部分對對對沒有啦妳要宣講妳要給百姓正確的觀念嘛但是妳要給百姓正確的觀念嘛是謝謝不過妳連中華民國憲法都不了解妳還是依照中華民國憲法宣示的主計長啊那我再請教妳所以我請說您宣講的時候準備材料的時候我寧願喔站在我的立場以我對您的尊敬我寧願相信妳是被誤導啦我真的是寧願這樣相信啊\n\n06:54.403 --> 07:17.738\n好那請教現在那個我們以前一直有提到一個什麼就是地方的這個自籌款跟那個中央的這種就在補助的時候一些款項比例就像財力分級的自籌款的比例對吧有分一級二級三級四級五級每一級有不同的規定比如說台北市第一級連江第五級那自籌款比例會不一樣沒錯吧\n\n07:19.715 --> 07:20.737\n對因為財源改變請問哪個等級是地方要自籌50%\n\n07:25.816 --> 07:55.060\n哪一個等級這個部分目前沒有現在正在研議當中沒有現在沒有嘛對不對沒有嘛齁那為什麼金門縣政府收到這個有部會的這個公文說這個補助款下去地方請地方自籌50%這個依法有據嗎我們整個目前正在檢討當中對你在檢討還沒有下公文嘛對不對還沒有你還在檢討但是有部會喔已經提出這樣的公文給地方政府喔說下去你們的這個自籌款要準備50%喔這個是依法有據的公文嗎\n\n07:56.758 --> 08:17.564\n還是在恐嚇地方的公文啊沒有嘛還沒有這樣規定出來對不對我們主計總署是沒有下這個公文對我不是說你主計總署我知道我相信主計總署會依法辦事雖然你沒有熟讀那個憲法不了解這個也被誤導好不好我就認為你被誤導我在地方聽到這個齁我們基本原來第三級嘛要負擔三成啦約三成啦\n\n08:19.344 --> 08:41.551\n現在有部會要求到第五層有要求到五層請你確實沒有這件事情對不對確實也沒有這個要求對不對目前是我們沒有做這樣的要求你們自己沒有你有沒有要求其他部會這樣做沒有沒有嘛如果真的沒有要對外澄清不然請你要詢問給各個部會啊他們怎麼可以不依法行政啊現在中央單位都可以亂套喔\n\n08:43.007 --> 09:00.737\n想要發文說五成就五成,想要給地方說你七成就七成,可以這樣子嗎?補助都是要依法行政啊院長在院會裡面有說明說補助款的部分先行凍結50%我說的是自籌款的部分嘛所有東西要依法行政嘛\n\n09:03.839 --> 09:23.814\n我說的不是現在這個我說的是比如說你有個計畫上來嘛對不對你本來是7比3嘛你現在竟然要求人家50嘛這是不對的嘛因為你們還沒有修你們不能這樣做吧你們是不是要依法行政我們沒有這樣子修我不是說你啦你沒有問題我不是說主計是你們既然沒有修其他各部會你應該發文給各個部會啊\n\n09:26.626 --> 09:50.728\n因為你們每個部會都有主計人員啊如果有的部會沒這樣做這樣他是不是違法不是因為現在是院長是說先凍結我知道你說的是那個那是因為114年度被刪減的情形要做調停我知道你說的是什麼我說但是我們財化法還沒有實施喔對財化法還沒有實施喔這是另外一件事對不對這兩件事嘛所以我現在說的是自籌款的部分嘛我是可以請你跟各個部會通令啊\n\n09:52.057 --> 10:05.595\n才化如果以後你要改成說要比例可能要調整你們會考慮那當然你們後面應該依法做嘛現在還沒有以前你們部應該這樣做是不是要通令你要請你的主計人員在各個部會的啊問他各個部會有沒有做這樣違法的事情這是違法欸\n\n10:07.036 --> 10:31.677\n難道可以一個部長我隨便舉例隨便隨便某某部長就是說我比較喜歡某個縣市我就要求他這個只要自籌20%我最討厭這個縣市他就要加到70%不可以嘛政府有法令對不對所以你是不是要通令我要求啦通令請各個單位要按照現在的法令行政嘛現在有財力分級嘛對吧是不是可以這樣做\n\n10:33.683 --> 10:40.202\n這個部分因為是行政院規範的不是我所以這個部分我們也可以向行政院來說明清楚\n\n10:43.255 --> 11:06.453\n其他部會違法你們裡面主計的人不用追究嗎那我要求一件事就好了好不好你請幫我了解給我資料各個部會因為你們都有主計的人有哪些部會做了這樣的事情違法要求地方給比較多超過原來他財力分級的部分一個月給我各個部會的資料你聽得懂我在說什麼嗎你去查你去查給我\n\n11:07.674 --> 11:20.423\n妳知道我意思嗎因為比如說金門本來是三級啊妳查金門的就好了本來是三級七比三結果妳去問看有沒有哪個部位妳幫我問有哪個部位給這樣子一個月給我一個月給妳報告給我們蔡委員好謝謝陳委員的諮詢下一位請黃珊珊委員諮詢請妳等一下找我一下\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.228,"end":26.987,"text":"主席長 請主席長 是我個人一向很尊敬您我也是尊敬您 謝謝我覺得你身為一位獨立自主的女性我內心表達非常敬重但是我昨天 還是昨天 前兩天看到新聞看到說您有一個 您上了一個是節目嗎 還是上了一個宣講的場合"},{"start":27.85,"end":35.964,"text":"是吧 參加一個大罷免的活動嘛對吧 有吧我不是參加大罷免活動我是在宣講政策是宣講喔"},{"start":37.296,"end":58.778,"text":"我覺得我看著你 我看你一上台就拿著稿開始念吧我不知道你念的那句話是 就應該是人家寫給你的吧照稿讀啊 那我心裡覺得很難過啊就覺得好像是被人家拿一個東西教你念前面那一段啊 前面那一段啊 說什麼你是怎樣是怎樣我覺得我心裡很感慨啦因為我覺得到底你是去宣講呢 還是去亂講啊"},{"start":60.103,"end":84.895,"text":"我主要是在講台上文化法修正的一個困境你身為主計長我對我們的行政官員事實上都一向很尊重那我們這些行政官員尤其是政務官應該要保持一定的高度在我來看都當到國家部會首長都是非常高的位置而且是讓人家敬重的那至少你要去宣講政策當然是行政院要求要去宣講政策職責所在那宣講的內容也應該照這個"},{"start":87.856,"end":107.568,"text":"比較 我們來看一下妳說了什麼嘛那妳知道去參加以前 妳知道這是民進黨在做這個全台大辦有一個造勢的場合嗎不是 因為他們說這是我們政策宣講的一個場合所以妳認為這個是很適合出現的嗎主計官隊來講 各地的主辦都很中立的角色啊"},{"start":108.914,"end":129.575,"text":"你覺得你適合參加嗎所以你不知道他是罷免的場合就對了因為他們在那邊講罷免啊有人上去演啊罷免啊重點是宣導政策所以你認為你是去宣導政策不是說去講反罷免這個事你沒有這樣的想法所以你身為主席連這種基本的判斷能力也沒有就對了"},{"start":130.416,"end":157.879,"text":"不是沒有 而是認為說我不是這樣子我們來看一下你現場提供的資料好不好我們來看你提供的資料正不正確你宣講有沒有像你看這個你現場提供的三立的報導金省前跟金省後這是你在人民市頭加的政策宣講原來金省前28財化法的這是財化法這個稅率劃分情形之前是28.9直銷三縣市台灣省政府是11嘛中央政府是60.1嘛那金省後"},{"start":158.699,"end":180.136,"text":"這個您提供24.6% 省政委的部分是11% 中央政委的部分是64.4%這個是你做的表沒錯吧 是那這個表裡頭 我想請問你你做這個表的意思是說 經審前跟經審後 因為你看71.1%跟75.4%嘛所以中央只有增加4%的意思是嗎"},{"start":181.158,"end":208.877,"text":"我的意思是說這個部分必須考量原來台灣省政府的業務的部分當初我們中央是有承接雖然收入有承接但是支出同樣有承接是是那這是講收入我先討論收入的部分我知道支出都當然有承接那所以你們這個你做這個表嘛把這個畫起來左邊是71.1右邊是75.4那意思是說中央只增加了4點多的收入是嗎"},{"start":210.097,"end":236.907,"text":"對中央就是說等於說地方他減少了4點多的一個收入就經省後地方只有減少4點多嘛對所以在你這個表格裡頭省政府是屬於中央嘛對不對因為省政府的業務後來劃歸到在你這個表格因為我們說左邊經省錢啦在你的裡頭省政府也算中央的是是嗎好下一頁來中華民國憲法第108條省政府是中央海地方"},{"start":239.124,"end":254.522,"text":"按照憲法規範你身為中華民國主席長中華民國憲法第108條中央是中央地方業務包括什麼省市省政府縣市政府所以你這個表格是我覺得是意圖在這個誤導民眾啊"},{"start":257.418,"end":270.777,"text":"我是針對整個一個稅務裁員你用這個表格我知道但是我知道你把那弄很清楚但你把它弄成71.1好像是只有增加4%地方減少那麼少地方好像只減少4%但事實上就是不是這樣子"},{"start":272.503,"end":298.965,"text":"你這個誇號像精神前中央只增加不到5%然後你把精神前省也算成中央這個是在欺騙百姓因為你是行政官員你當初宣誓的時候是宣誓是按照中華民國憲法宣誓要遵守憲法所以在百姓宣導證的時候你必須要合憲合法你現在馬上到旁邊的幕僚把他給我翻中華民國憲法第108條省算是中央海地方"},{"start":300.291,"end":327.638,"text":"因為經省以後他的業務是移到中央來辦的沒錯嘛 那錢也是移過來嘛所以地方的錢是變少嘛地方的錢也變少嘛 沒錯嘛我的意思是說 你要講說因為茶葉法我是主審的 我非常了解你要說地方的中央事情變多 錢變多 事情也變多那現在如果茶葉法要這樣畫那我們也必須要把這個一些事權下放這點我都同意 我也都尊重"},{"start":328.038,"end":347.204,"text":"所以我在這裡一直在講說那內政部提出哪些事權要下放的法律修改啊交通部經濟部各個部會覺得哪些部會有些事情既然前面採劃法分給地方那地方多做一點把事權劃出來啊我請各個部會提出相關的修法這個是各個部會應該提出他們沒做嘛對不對"},{"start":348.064,"end":368.423,"text":"他們必須這樣做嘛 那你們主計處跟財政部也應該提出你們的版本是你們一直不願意提出版本嘛 我們苦等再等 一等再等從六月份等到九月份 再從九月份等到十二月份 都沒有 我們就只好修法嘛我們不是不願意說等你們有版本吧"},{"start":369.224,"end":386.436,"text":"那因為可是我是在說當你身為一個政務官下鄉去宣講的時候你要講正確的觀念啊比如你連省是中央還是地方你都搞不清楚嘛你身為一個中華民國的主計長連中華民國憲法的明白規定的中央跟地方的權限都沒有弄清楚嘛"},{"start":387.156,"end":412.583,"text":"妳說我有沒有說錯啊我現在是在談業務的部分對對對 沒有啦妳要宣講 妳要給百姓正確的觀念嘛但是妳要給百姓正確的觀念嘛是 謝謝不過妳連中華民國憲法都不了解妳還是依照中華民國憲法宣示的主計長啊那我再請教妳所以我請說 您宣講的時候準備材料的時候我寧願喔 站在我的立場以我對您的尊敬我寧願相信妳是被誤導啦我真的是寧願這樣相信啊"},{"start":414.403,"end":437.738,"text":"好 那請教現在那個我們以前一直有提到一個什麼就是地方的這個自籌款跟那個中央的這種就在補助的時候一些款項比例就像財力分級的自籌款的比例 對吧有分一級 二級 三級 四級 五級每一級有不同的規定比如說台北市第一級 連江第五級那自籌款比例會不一樣 沒錯吧"},{"start":439.715,"end":440.737,"text":"對 因為財源改變請問哪個等級是地方要自籌50%"},{"start":445.816,"end":475.06,"text":"哪一個等級這個部分目前沒有現在正在研議當中沒有現在沒有嘛對不對沒有嘛齁那為什麼金門縣政府收到這個有部會的這個公文說這個補助款下去地方請地方自籌50%這個依法有據嗎我們整個目前正在檢討當中對你在檢討還沒有下公文嘛對不對還沒有你還在檢討但是有部會喔已經提出這樣的公文給地方政府喔說下去你們的這個自籌款要準備50%喔這個是依法有據的公文嗎"},{"start":476.758,"end":497.564,"text":"還是在恐嚇地方的公文啊沒有嘛 還沒有這樣規定出來對不對我們主計總署是沒有下這個公文對 我不是說你主計總署我知道 我相信主計總署會依法辦事雖然你沒有熟讀那個憲法不了解這個也被誤導 好不好我就認為你被誤導我在地方聽到這個齁我們基本原來第三級嘛要負擔三成啦 約三成啦"},{"start":499.344,"end":521.551,"text":"現在有部會要求到第五層有要求到五層請你 確實沒有這件事情對不對確實也沒有這個要求對不對目前是我們沒有做這樣的要求你們自己沒有 你有沒有要求其他部會這樣做沒有沒有嘛 如果真的沒有要對外澄清不然請你要詢問給各個部會啊他們怎麼可以不依法行政啊現在中央單位都可以亂套喔"},{"start":523.007,"end":540.737,"text":"想要發文說五成就五成,想要給地方說你七成就七成,可以這樣子嗎?補助都是要依法行政啊院長在院會裡面有說明說補助款的部分先行凍結50%我說的是自籌款的部分嘛所有東西要依法行政嘛"},{"start":543.839,"end":563.814,"text":"我說的不是現在這個 我說的是比如說你有個計畫上來嘛 對不對你本來是7比3嘛 你現在竟然要求人家50嘛這是不對的嘛 因為你們還沒有修 你們不能這樣做吧你們是不是要依法行政我們沒有這樣子修我不是說你啦 你沒有問題 我不是說主計是你們既然沒有修 其他各部會 你應該發文給各個部會啊"},{"start":566.626,"end":590.728,"text":"因為你們每個部會都有主計人員啊如果有的部會沒這樣做這樣他是不是違法不是因為現在是院長是說先凍結我知道你說的是那個那是因為114年度被刪減的情形要做調停我知道你說的是什麼我說但是我們財化法還沒有實施喔對財化法還沒有實施喔這是另外一件事對不對這兩件事嘛所以我現在說的是自籌款的部分嘛我是可以請你跟各個部會通令啊"},{"start":592.057,"end":605.595,"text":"才化如果以後你要改成說要比例可能要調整你們會考慮那當然你們後面應該依法做嘛現在還沒有以前你們部應該這樣做是不是要通令你要請你的主計人員在各個部會的啊問他各個部會有沒有做這樣違法的事情這是違法欸"},{"start":607.036,"end":631.677,"text":"難道可以一個部長我隨便舉例隨便隨便某某部長就是說我比較喜歡某個縣市我就要求他這個只要自籌20%我最討厭這個縣市他就要加到70%不可以嘛政府有法令對不對所以你是不是要通令我要求啦通令請各個單位要按照現在的法令行政嘛現在有財力分級嘛對吧是不是可以這樣做"},{"start":633.683,"end":640.202,"text":"這個部分因為是行政院規範的不是我所以這個部分我們也可以向行政院來說明清楚"},{"start":643.255,"end":666.453,"text":"其他部會違法你們裡面主計的人不用追究嗎那我要求一件事就好了好不好你請幫我了解給我資料各個部會因為你們都有主計的人有哪些部會做了這樣的事情違法要求地方給比較多超過原來他財力分級的部分一個月給我各個部會的資料你聽得懂我在說什麼嗎你去查你去查給我"},{"start":667.674,"end":680.423,"text":"妳知道我意思嗎因為比如說金門本來是三級啊妳查金門的就好了本來是三級七比三結果妳去問看有沒有哪個部位 妳幫我問有哪個部位給這樣子一個月給我一個月給妳報告給我們蔡委員好 謝謝陳委員的諮詢下一位請黃珊珊委員諮詢 請妳等一下找我一下"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":776,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（11時21分）謝謝主席，有請主計長。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：主計長，我個人一向很尊敬您。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我也是尊敬您。"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝。我覺得你身為一位獨立自主的女性，我內心非常的敬重。但是我前兩天看到新聞說你有上了一個宣講的場合，對吧？參加一個大罷免的活動，有吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我不是參加大罷免活動，我是在宣講政策。"],["陳委員玉珍：是宣講喔？我看你一上臺就拿著稿開始唸，你唸的那句話應該是人家寫給你的嘛？照稿讀啊！我心裡就覺得很難過，覺得好像是人家拿一個東西叫你唸，前面那一段說你是怎樣、是怎樣，我聽了心裡很感慨啦，因為到底你是去宣講還是去亂講？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我主要是在講財劃法修正後的困境啦。"],["陳委員玉珍：你身為主計長，我對我們的行政官員一向都很尊重。這些行政官員，尤其是政務官，應該要保持一定的高度，在我來看，當到國家部會首長都是非常高的位置，而且是讓人家敬重的。所以你要去宣講政策，當然行政院要求去宣講政策的，是你的職責所在，但宣講的內容也應該照……我們來看一下你說了什麼。你去參加以前，你知道這是民進黨在做全臺大罷免的造勢場合嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，因為他們說這是我們政策宣講的場合。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你認為這個是很適合出現的嗎？對我來講，各地主計官都是很中立的角色。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，原則上主計大部分都是……"],["陳委員玉珍：你覺得你適合參加嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們是政務官……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你不知道它是罷免的場合就對了？他們在那邊就講罷免，還有人上去演啊、講罷免啊。"],["陳主計長淑姿：重點是宣導政策。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你認為你是去宣導政策，不是去講大罷免這個事？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，我一向也沒有這樣子。"],["陳委員玉珍：你沒有這樣的想法？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以身為主計長，你連這種基本的判斷能力也沒有就對了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是沒有，而是認為我不是這樣子……"],["陳委員玉珍：好，我們來看一下你現場提供的資料正不正確，你說是宣講。這是三立的報導，這是你在「人民是頭家」政策宣講會的內容，分成精省前跟精省後，這是財劃法的歲入劃分情形。精省前，直轄市和縣市是28.9%，臺灣省政府是11%，中央政府是60.1%；精省後，直轄市和縣市是24.6%，這是您提供的數字，省政府是11%，中央政府是64.4%。這是你做的表，沒錯吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：我想請問你，你做這個表的意思是，精省前跟精省後，分別是71.1%跟75.4%，所以是中央只有增加4%的意思嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我的意思是，這個部分必須考量原來臺灣省政府的業務部分當初中央是有承接的，雖然收入有承接，但是支出同樣有承接，所以這個支出的部分……"],["陳委員玉珍：這是講收入，我先討論收入的部分，我知道支出當然也有承接。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你做這個表，把這個畫起來，左邊是71.1%，右邊是75.4%，意思是中央只增加了百分之四點多的收入嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，等於說地方減少了百分之四點多的收入。"],["陳委員玉珍：就是精省後，地方只有減少百分之四點多？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以在你這個表格裡，省政府是屬於中央，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為省政府的業務後來劃歸到中央去了。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有，我們說的是左邊精省前，在你的表格裡頭，省政府算中央，是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：是嘛？好。按照中華民國憲法第一百零八條規範，省政府是屬於中央還是地方？你身為中華民國的主計長，中華民國憲法第一百零八條規定，中央是中央，地方業務包括省政府、縣市政府，所以我覺得你這個表格是在意圖誤導民眾。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我是針對整個歲入財源來說明清楚……"],["陳委員玉珍：你用這個表格……我知道你把那個弄得很清楚，但你把它弄成71.1%，好像是只有增加4%，然後地方減少那麼少，地方好像只減少4%，但事實上就不是這樣子！你這個括號好像說精省前後中央只增加不到5%，然後你把精省前的省也算成中央，這個是在欺騙百姓啊！因為你是行政官員，既然你當初宣誓的時候是按著中華民國憲法宣誓，那就要遵守憲法，所以在向百姓宣導政策時，你必須要合憲合法。現在旁邊的幕僚馬上幫我翻中華民國憲法第一百零八條，省算是中央還地方？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為精省以後，它的業務是移到中央來辦理，所以我現在……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒錯，但錢也是移過去，所以地方的錢也變少了，沒錯嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，但是我在講的是省政府移過來的部分。"],["陳委員玉珍：因為財劃法我是主審的，我非常了解，你要說中央的事情變多，雖然錢變多，但事情也變多，現在如果財劃法要這樣的劃，我們也必須要把一些事權下放，這個我都同意，也都尊重……"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以我在這裡也一直在講，內政部可以提出哪些事權要下放的法律修改啊！交通部、經濟部、各個部會覺得哪些部會有些事情，既然財劃法把錢分給地方了，應該讓地方多做一點，那就把事權劃出來啊！我請各個部會提出相關的修法，這個是各個部會應該提的，但他們沒做，對不對？他們必須這樣做嘛！你們主計總處跟財政部也應該提出你們的版本，是你們一直不願意提出版本，我們苦等再等、一等再等，從6月份等到9月份，再從9月份等到12月份，都沒有提出來，我們就只好修法，我們不是不願意等你們有版本。我是在說，你身為一個政務官，當你下鄉去宣講的時候，你要講正確的觀念啊！你連省是中央還是地方都搞不清楚了，你身為中華民國的主計長，你連中華民國憲法明白規定的中央跟地方的權限都沒有弄清楚，你說我有沒有說錯啊？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我現在是在談業務的部分，對這個部分如果有誤解的話……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有、沒有，如果你要宣講，你要給百姓正確的觀念嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們將來再修正，謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：但是你要給百姓正確的觀念嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：不然你連中華民國憲法都不了解，你還是依照中華民國憲法宣誓的主計長！我再請教你，所以我請你宣講的時候、準備材料的時候，站在我的立場，以我對你的尊敬，我寧願相信你是被誤導，我真的是寧願這樣相信。","再請教，我們以前一直有提到地方自籌款跟中央補助款的比例，就是縣市依財力分級表負擔自籌比例，對吧？有分一級、二級、三級、四級、五級，每一級有不同的規定，比如說，臺北市是第一級、連江縣是第五級，自籌款比例會不一樣，沒錯吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，因為整個財源改變……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒錯嘛！好，請問哪個等級是地方要自籌50%？哪一個等級？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分目前沒有，現在正在研議當中。"],["陳委員玉珍：現在沒有，對不對？沒有嘛！那為什麼金門縣政府會收到部會的公文說，補助款下去，請地方自籌50%？這個於法有據嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們目前整個正在檢討當中。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，你在檢討，還沒有下公文，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：還沒有。"],["陳委員玉珍：但是有部會已經提給地方政府這樣的公文，表示他們的自籌款要準備50%，這個是依法有據的公文嗎？還是在恐嚇地方的公文？還沒有這樣規定出來，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們主計總處沒有下這個公文。"],["陳委員玉珍：我不是說你主計總處，我相信主計總處會依法辦事，雖然你沒有熟讀憲法，不了解，然後我認為你被誤導了。但我在地方聽到了，我們金門原來是在第三級，要負擔約三成，現在有部會要求要到五成，就你所知，確實沒有這件事情，對不對？確實沒有這個要求，對不對？就是你們主計的部分。"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前我們沒有做這樣的要求。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們沒有，但你有沒有要求其他部會這樣做？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有。"],["陳委員玉珍：如果真的沒有，要對外澄清，不然請你行文給各個部會，他們怎麼可以不依法行政？現在中央單位都可以這樣亂套喔！想要發文給地方說自籌五成就五成；想要給地方自籌七成就七成，可以這樣子嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是院長……"],["陳委員玉珍：都要依法行政啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是院長在院會裡面有說明，補助款的部分先行凍結50%。"],["陳委員玉珍：我說的是自籌款的部分，所有東西都要依法行政。"],["陳主計長淑姿：補助款先凍結50%，是有做這樣的……"],["陳委員玉珍：我說的不是現在，我說的是，比如說你有個計畫上來，本來比例是七比三，現在竟然要求人家50%，這是不對的，因為你們還沒有修，所以你們不能這樣做，你們是不是要依法行政？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們沒有這樣子修。"],["陳委員玉珍：你沒有問題，我不是說主計總處，而且既然你們沒有修，就應該發文給各個部會，因為你們每個部會都有主計人員，如果有的部會這樣做，則它是不是違法？"],["陳主計長淑姿：現在院長是說先凍結，因為114年度被刪減的情形要做了解。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道你說的是什麼，但是我們財劃法還沒有實施。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，這是另外一件事。"],["陳委員玉珍：這是兩件事嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：我現在說的是自籌款的部分，是不是可以請你通令各個部會，基於財劃法，你說以後比例可能要調整，這個你們會考慮，當然你們後面應該依法去做，但現在還沒有做以前，你們不應該這樣！所以是不是要通令，請你在各個部會的主計人員，問他們各個部會有沒有做這樣違法的事情？這是違法耶！我隨便舉個例，某某部長說：我比較喜歡某個縣市，我就要求它只要自籌20%；我最討厭這個縣市，就要加比例到70%，不可以這樣嘛！政府有法令，對不對？所以我要求你們通令，請各個單位要按照現在的法令行政，現在有財力分級，對吧？是不是可以這樣做呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分因為是行政院規範的，不是我，所以這個部分我們也可以向行政院來說明清楚。"],["陳委員玉珍：我的意思是其他部會違法，你們裡面的主計人員不用追究嗎？好，我要求一件事就好了，請幫我了解，並給我資料，因為你們在各個部會都有主計人員，所以有哪些部會做了這樣的事情？就是違法要求地方自籌的比例比較多，超過原來財力分級的部分，一個月內提供給我資料。"],["主席：可以嗎？"],["陳委員玉珍：你聽得懂我在說什麼嗎？"],["主席：一個月內給出報告，好不好？"],["陳委員玉珍：請你去查給我，你知道我的意思嗎？你查金門的就好了，金門本來是三級、比例是七比三，你幫我問有哪個部會給這樣的要求。"],["陳主計長淑姿：會了解一下。"],["陳委員玉珍：一個月內給報告。"],["主席：好，一個月內給財政委員會一個報告，謝謝陳委員的質詢。","下一位請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","吳秉叡","柯建銘","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李彥秀","林思銘","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","顏寬恒","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","吳思瑤","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","葉元之","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":339,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查本院委員王鴻薇等26人、委員林德福等20人、委員賴士葆等20人分別擬具「預\n算法增訂第八十一條之一條文草案」等3案","agenda_id":"1143101_00006"}}}