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{\"word\": \"易\", \"start\": 279.421, \"end\": 279.602, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"掌\", \"start\": 279.602, \"end\": 279.802, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"握\", \"start\": 279.802, \"end\": 280.022, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 280.022, \"end\": 281.323, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"訊\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 281.323, \"end\": 281.503, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 281.503, \"end\": 281.744, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 281.744, \"end\": 281.944, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"失\", \"start\": 281.944, \"end\": 282.084, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 282.084, \"end\": 282.384, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 282.384, \"end\": 282.504, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 282.504, \"end\": 282.805, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"響\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 282.805, 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{\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 679.144, \"end\": 679.344, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 679.344, \"end\": 679.884, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"表\", \"start\": 679.884, \"end\": 680.344, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 680.344, \"end\": 680.865, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"顯\"}, {\"word\": \"帶\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 680.865, \"end\": 681.065, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"歧\", \"start\": 681.065, \"end\": 681.465, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"視\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 681.465, \"end\": 681.585, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 681.585, \"end\": 682.025, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 682.025, \"end\": 682.986, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"嗆\"}, {\"word\": \"聲\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 682.986, \"end\": 683.226, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 683.226, \"end\": 683.886, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"舊\"}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 683.886, \"end\": 684.086, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 684.086, \"end\": 684.487, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 684.487, \"end\": 684.967, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"歸\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 684.967, \"end\": 685.207, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"庭\", \"start\": 685.207, \"end\": 685.887, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 685.887, \"end\": 686.188, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 686.188, \"end\": 686.288, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 686.288, \"end\": 686.468, \"score\": 0.689}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 686.468, \"end\": 686.688, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 686.688, \"end\": 686.708, \"score\": 0.988}]}, {\"start\": 687.048, \"end\": 715.251, \"text\": \"第一個我沒有聽到柯總召什麼時候講這些話我是從媒體上知道的但是我想說任何一個人都不要用性別不平等或是性別不正確的方式來指涉任何人所以部長也是認為不該用這樣的一個方式來去我已經講過因為我不清楚柯總召是講什麼話因為我想希望完整的內容會比較好不要有斷章取義新聞都有 絕對沒有斷章取義您可以去看新聞\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 687.048, \"end\": 687.148, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 687.148, \"end\": 687.729, \"score\": 0.705}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 687.729, \"end\": 687.869, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 687.869, \"end\": 688.029, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 688.029, \"end\": 688.729, \"score\": 0.739}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 688.729, \"end\": 689.29, \"score\": 0.64}, {\"word\": \"柯\", \"start\": 689.29, \"end\": 689.69, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, {\"word\": \"召\", \"start\": 689.69, \"end\": 689.99, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 689.99, \"end\": 690.111, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 690.111, \"end\": 690.831, \"score\": 0.735}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 690.831, \"end\": 691.712, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 691.712, \"end\": 691.832, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 691.832, \"end\": 692.112, \"score\": 0.591}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"媒\", \"start\": 692.112, \"end\": 692.452, \"score\": 0.712}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 692.452, \"end\": 692.953, \"score\": 0.716}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 692.953, \"end\": 693.113, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 693.113, \"end\": 693.353, \"score\": 0.719}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 693.353, \"end\": 693.833, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 693.833, \"end\": 693.934, \"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 693.934, \"end\": 694.034, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 694.034, \"end\": 694.174, \"score\": 0.699}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 694.174, \"end\": 694.594, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 694.594, \"end\": 694.794, \"score\": 0.765}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 694.794, \"end\": 694.954, \"score\": 0.779}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 694.954, \"end\": 695.215, \"score\": 0.742}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 695.215, \"end\": 695.595, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 695.595, \"end\": 695.755, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 695.755, \"end\": 695.855, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 695.855, \"end\": 696.075, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 696.075, \"end\": 696.616, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 696.616, \"end\": 696.856, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 696.856, \"end\": 697.136, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 697.136, \"end\": 697.276, \"score\": 0.759}, {\"word\": \"平\", \"start\": 697.276, \"end\": 697.496, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 697.496, \"end\": 697.697, \"score\": 0.668}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 697.697, \"end\": 697.837, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 697.837, \"end\": 698.097, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 698.097, \"end\": 698.337, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 698.337, \"end\": 698.657, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 698.657, \"end\": 698.737, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 698.737, \"end\": 699.098, \"score\": 0.629}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 699.098, \"end\": 699.478, \"score\": 0.661}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 699.478, \"end\": 699.758, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"式\", \"start\": 699.758, \"end\": 700.719, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 700.719, \"end\": 700.899, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"涉\", \"start\": 700.899, \"end\": 701.079, \"score\": 0.719}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 701.079, \"end\": 701.239, \"score\": 0.658}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 701.239, \"end\": 701.4, \"score\": 0.759}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 701.4, \"end\": 702.02, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 702.02, \"end\": 702.12, \"score\": 0.687}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 702.12, \"end\": 702.22, \"score\": 0.472}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 702.22, \"end\": 702.661, \"score\": 0.662}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 702.661, \"end\": 702.821, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 702.821, \"end\": 703.341, \"score\": 0.77}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 703.341, \"end\": 703.621, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 703.621, \"end\": 704.062, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 704.062, \"end\": 704.142, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 704.142, \"end\": 704.402, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 704.402, \"end\": 704.722, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"式\", \"start\": 704.722, \"end\": 705.223, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 705.223, \"end\": 705.783, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 705.783, \"end\": 705.923, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 705.923, \"end\": 706.544, \"score\": 0.765}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 706.544, \"end\": 706.664, \"score\": 0.754}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 706.664, \"end\": 706.844, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 706.844, \"end\": 706.964, \"score\": 0.626}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 706.964, \"end\": 707.204, \"score\": 0.616}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 707.204, \"end\": 707.384, \"score\": 0.709}, {\"word\": \"柯\", \"start\": 707.384, \"end\": 707.725, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, {\"word\": \"召\", \"start\": 707.725, \"end\": 708.045, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 708.045, \"end\": 708.685, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 708.685, \"end\": 709.166, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 709.166, \"end\": 709.406, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 709.406, \"end\": 709.546, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 709.546, \"end\": 709.726, \"score\": 0.649}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 709.726, \"end\": 709.946, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 709.946, \"end\": 710.207, \"score\": 0.615}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 710.207, \"end\": 710.427, \"score\": 0.679}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 710.427, \"end\": 710.547, \"score\": 0.686}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 710.547, \"end\": 710.867, \"score\": 0.707}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"容\", \"start\": 710.867, \"end\": 711.167, \"score\": 0.72}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 711.167, \"end\": 711.468, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 711.468, \"end\": 711.688, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 711.688, \"end\": 711.808, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 711.808, \"end\": 712.028, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 712.028, \"end\": 712.408, \"score\": 0.741}, {\"word\": \"斷\"}, {\"word\": \"章\", \"start\": 712.408, \"end\": 712.929, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"取\", \"start\": 712.929, \"end\": 713.089, \"score\": 0.6}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 713.089, \"end\": 713.269, \"score\": 0.715}, {\"word\": \"聞\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 713.269, \"end\": 713.409, \"score\": 0.763}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 713.409, \"end\": 713.569, \"score\": 0.718}, {\"word\": \"絕\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 713.569, \"end\": 713.95, \"score\": 0.672}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 713.95, \"end\": 714.19, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"斷\"}, {\"word\": \"章\", \"start\": 714.19, \"end\": 714.39, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"取\", \"start\": 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0.943}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 778.632, \"end\": 778.652, \"score\": 0.561}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 779.909, \"end\": 780.009, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 780.009, \"end\": 780.15, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"徐\", \"start\": 780.15, \"end\": 781.955, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"宇\", \"start\": 781.955, \"end\": 782.015, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"甄\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 782.015, \"end\": 782.035, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,269 --> 00:00:05,733\n我想請教部長跟我們尼副署長我們現在台灣的房價居高不下內政部不動產的資訊平台指出2024年第三季全台灣的房價所得比創新高\n\n2\n00:00:26,526 --> 00:00:41,823\n來到10.82倍那也就是說民眾要不吃不喝10.82年才能夠買得起房子那我們再看看各縣市的狀況你看到台北市需要16.6年新北市需要14.03年\n\n3\n00:00:43,405 --> 00:00:53,209\n再看看房貸的負擔率的統計全國的平均是46.8%也創下新高那台北市房貸的負擔率是71.82%新北市是60.69%這個數字顯示就是全國家庭可支配的所得46.8%得拿來繳房貸\n\n4\n00:01:04,253 --> 00:01:14,688\n尤其是台北市還要拿出七成來付房貸請問一下部長跟林副處長怎麼樣什麼時候才能改善房價所得比偏高的情況請問部長\n\n5\n00:01:18,845 --> 00:01:35,337\n那個跟委員報告一下那個部分的話主要這個是屬於購屋負擔的一個部分那對於購屋負擔的部分的話當然我們政府這幾年其實有推動了非常多措施像平均地權條例的修法打草防一些相關的法案\n\n6\n00:01:35,797 --> 00:01:53,909\n那另外的話在我們內政部也有在推動涉宅的興建和租金補貼來照顧民眾的一個需求那如果從去年第三季來看的話其實這個指數的一個漲幅已經有盪下來請問市長你認不認同現在的這個房價所得比是偏高的\n\n7\n00:01:54,890 --> 00:02:09,367\n現在的話是有相對的一個部分在台北是你的所得七成要來負擔房貸在各縣市我們可以看到其實幾乎啦平均46.8都要拿來付房貸所以我們現在的問題應該是要根本性問題是要解決\n\n8\n00:02:14,151 --> 00:02:30,636\n這個房價居高的問題嘛那當然因為房價居高所以很多人買不起只能租屋喔那尤其是這個年輕族群啊他們為了北漂或者到地方去別的地方去工作他們只能租屋那所以呢目前我們購屋方面有這個實價登錄的平台\n\n9\n00:02:32,436 --> 00:02:56,068\n現在做得非常不錯那請問一下部長內政部可不可以做到租賃住宅的實價登錄讓民眾可以輕鬆的報告委員我們在今天的報告裡面有講得非常的清楚只要是公部門能夠掌握的資訊的話要求實價登錄我們都盡量做到這就是我們在租屋市場上面大概有60%左右我們已經公布了那也就是說\n\n10\n00:02:56,968 --> 00:03:15,212\n另外40%我們就可以繼續來努力然後完成租賃的實價登錄我們會朝著經濟措施來努力但是那為什麼到現在還沒有辦法做到實價登錄剛剛我已經跟很多委員報告過第一個就是租賃契約裡面如果你雙方的是私人的房東或是私人的這個租客那他們在做實價登錄上面的話會不會有不實的一個實價登錄還有\n\n11\n00:03:21,713 --> 00:03:26,541\n就是他們的這個短期的租約啊能不能達到用公佈門來公佈那這個呢就是在執行層面上會有比較大的不實的實價登錄喔算不算違法\n\n12\n00:03:34,108 --> 00:03:59,182\n現在沒有規定所以不實實價登錄是可以的如果依照我們仲介的一個條例還有那個租賃條例的規定包租跟仲介的部分如果不實申報他是有罰則那因為現在委員主要是事成的部分就規範以外那個就回歸到民法的一個所以目前是沒有刑罰所以也難怪說房東跟房客之間他們可以用這樣的方式嘛\n\n13\n00:03:59,682 --> 00:04:17,318\n那我想請教一下當然很多人認為我們也聽到很多說為什麼房東房客自己不去登錄的原因是因為他們知道房東有可能會因此不租給他或者是漲租金那也是因為這樣所以不能用租屋的住宅的實價登錄嗎\n\n14\n00:04:21,765 --> 00:04:44,386\n委員主要應該是在講說是不是要全面實價登錄的問題那除了仲介跟轉租業者轉租業以外那個部分的話現在是沒有法源沒有法源那也就是說我們要修法的意思沒有立法的部分剛剛部長有提到就會有第一個租約不易掌握那資訊到底會不會失真會不會影響到市場那我問一下您副署長\n\n15\n00:04:46,173 --> 00:05:07,254\n這個財政部會不會藉由內政部建制這個租屋實價登錄對房東及查課稅如果我們之後有這個租賃實價登錄的話公務委員包括現在的相關實價登錄制度都有法律都有明定說不可以作為課稅的依據好那所以沒有實價登錄我們現在所以不能作為課稅依據也就是財政部不會查囉\n\n16\n00:05:08,306 --> 00:05:31,035\n不會透過用實價登錄的資料來查這樣子那也就是說查稅這件事情是本來財政部就該做的是是是所以不管我們實價登錄你都會做是是是那既然我覺得這個財政部為了這個付稅公平的一個原則嘛會積極的查這個查處逃漏稅那所以內政部是可以考慮啊針對這個實價登錄的部分我們能夠來積極的處理呢請問部長\n\n17\n00:05:35,948 --> 00:05:50,791\n報告委員我們現在按照法令上面的規範的部分能夠積極處理的其實我們都處理的差不多了所以現在還有的問題就是在法令的問題嗎因為沒辦法規範它在法律上面沒有這樣強制或者是說有非常大的這個所謂的棍子條款\n\n18\n00:05:51,872 --> 00:06:17,323\n那所以這個是在我們而且呢現在的市場上面的就是會產生那個負面的效應就是說我們有實價上去的話那會不會變成是租金上漲或者是說他那個房子租不到那這樣子對於比較嚴重的都會地區譬如說像雙北這是我們目前所看到的比較嚴重的地區的話反而會造成負面的效果所以我們才在推動的時候是要以穩健為主對我想這個部分我們今天就是討論嘛\n\n19\n00:06:19,384 --> 00:06:34,324\n還是希望內政部能夠提出解方看怎麼來去處理這樣的問題否則對於我想很多的租客來說他們也很希望有一個公開的平台他們可以很了解現在租金的狀況那另外再請教部長就是說我們現在看到社宅的租金問題\n\n20\n00:06:35,665 --> 00:06:53,545\n這個租金可負擔市社宅的這個核心價值那目前內政部是依照身份別來計算租金但是這種做法可能會造成不同所得卻繳交相同租金的垂直不公那另外呢如果租金是採市價打折的方式又會造成不同縣市社宅因為\n\n21\n00:06:54,065 --> 00:07:15,013\n市場的租金落差過大的水平不公那現在呢中央雖然有提出一些綜合的方案但是呢很像拼裝車沒有辦法真正解決這個財稅資料不足的問題而且也有可能會漏接落市的一個狀況那請問一下地方政府希望採取的是收入分級的方式處理那其實也吵了蠻久了那請問內政部有沒有新的方案\n\n22\n00:07:17,294 --> 00:07:31,881\n跟委員報告其實我們在從111年開始都已經陸陸續續開過7次的會議那因為各縣市政府其實在六都裡面比較支持多的還是希望能夠原來有的這一個身分別的部分\n\n23\n00:07:32,461 --> 00:07:50,240\n那再加上部分的這個所得所得分級那所以我們也依據這樣陸陸續續開了七次會大概有一個定案也就是大概不要再去走一定要完全所得分級也不要一定走身份分級那所以最新的這樣的雙方混合出來會分成四級那大概在這個月的26號\n\n24\n00:07:51,361 --> 00:08:05,184\n那因為在去年11月已經開了第七次會議的時候大致上有一個共識但是回去要個別再了解看看事實上實施以後會不會有新的困擾所以這個部分26號會再討論確認討論完如果確認大家都沒有問題我們來正式來簽報不過這也是給各縣市一個原則一個處理的一個原則我想如果\n\n25\n00:08:13,746 --> 00:08:37,641\n再經過大家的共同討論那在3月16號可以有這樣的一個報告出來我想我們大概也可以沒有我想跟委員報告一下社會住宅的承租者這是我們內政部所主管的但是還有地方上所主管的部分我們都是列入一起討論那希望說會有共識那共識的還是會有原則跟例外所以這個部分呢讓我們有一點時間再來做比較完整的處理我們也希望有完備的一個方案出來大家共同來解決但我想現在會需要租屋喔\n\n26\n00:08:43,464 --> 00:08:58,741\n大家也希望能夠住到社會住宅那請部長看一下就是其實這個部分我已經也質詢過很多次了就是有關社會住宅興建的進度統計表部長可以看一下我們社宅的興建的統計表這裡\n\n27\n00:09:03,703 --> 00:09:20,238\n我們現在以完工的話大概是有33,781戶這是在我們從114年2月28的我們在這個內政部不動產的資訊平台所download下來的我們可以看到然後新建中是54,134戶以絕標代開工是33,285戶總計是121,200戶那請問一下目前到底我們可以入住的有幾戶\n\n28\n00:09:32,447 --> 00:10:00,345\n我想就是這個數字現在的33,781那因為事實上因為已經在興建中的大概在未來這兩三年就會大量的完成那所以這是過去八年來大家都做了一個努力因為現在內政部對外宣傳的都是說是12萬那就是已經在執行中的但是我就要請教這個署長的是有幾戶是可以入住的所以是三萬多我瞭解但是這也是代表供給不夠的問題\n\n29\n00:10:01,926 --> 00:10:28,622\n那你當然希望我們當然希望能夠盡快的來去我們一定是盡快完成但是也是還是要表達但是現在其實真正能夠入住就三萬多戶嘛應該表達是說大家還有很大的努力空間當然當然所以我的意思是說我覺得政府要正視這個問題而不是就是美化那個數字比如說我們現在就是三萬多戶可以入住沒有美化而且這個都是在努力中而且在執行中我們還是希望是說但是我們還是來正視這個問題我覺得比較重要還是要正視是說\n\n30\n00:10:31,164 --> 00:10:51,150\n我們希望地方政府要持續的努力因為我們看到的是地方政府越來越不見了所以我們也是要呼籲希望地方政府要持續的努力我們還是希望我們明確的把這個數字揭露出來那大家一起來努力好嗎最後不好意思稍微一分鐘我想請教一下劉部長就是\n\n31\n00:10:57,492 --> 00:11:26,708\n就是根據行政院發布的2025年的性別圖像的性別不平等指數原來亞洲第一是台灣但現在已經被新加坡超前了也不再是亞洲第一而且已經連續兩年退步而且這次發布的成績也叫前次的退步三名請問部長您對於民進黨總召柯建民發表明顯帶有歧視的言論他嗆聲要如舊院市長回歸家庭請問部長有什麼看法\n\n32\n00:11:27,048 --> 00:11:55,251\n第一個我沒有聽到柯總召什麼時候講這些話我是從媒體上知道的但是我想說任何一個人都不要用性別不平等或是性別不正確的方式來指涉任何人所以部長也是認為不該用這樣的一個方式來去我已經講過因為我不清楚柯總召是講什麼話因為我想希望完整的內容會比較好不要有斷章取義新聞都有絕對沒有斷章取義您可以去看新聞\n\n33\n00:11:55,831 --> 00:12:13,076\n那所以部長認為如果是柯總早講這樣的話請盧秀燕市長回歸家庭的話這樣是不適當的對嗎我想任何人講這樣的話的話呢不管他是什麼樣子的一個政黨色彩對於目前我們所推動的這個性別平等教育或性別平等都不是很公平\n\n34\n00:12:13,636 --> 00:12:28,569\n但是我一再強調我沒有針對個人因為個人他的前言後語是指什麼我並不清楚因為在很多政治人物在講的部分的話我都會比較審慎去看他的前面跟後面等是什麼所以我很高興知道部長講到您對於這種性別平等您是捍衛性別平等的\n\n35\n00:12:30,911 --> 00:12:58,652\n也不該有這樣歧視的言論吧對嗎您是這樣謝謝指教是那所以呢我想針對部長來您正在推動一個地方民帶任意性別的保障名額改為三分之一嘛最近我們在推動這樣內政部在推動任何一個性別的保障名額所以這我想這也攸關於整個政府的一個性平形象啦所以還是希望部長對於性平的部分我們大家努力來去捍衛那也希望不要再有這種歧視的言論\n\n36\n00:12:59,909 --> 00:13:02,035\n好謝謝謝謝好謝謝徐宇甄委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n269\t5733\t我想請教部長跟我們尼副署長我們現在台灣的房價居高不下內政部不動產的資訊平台指出2024年第三季全台灣的房價所得比創新高\n26526\t41823\t來到10.82倍那也就是說民眾要不吃不喝10.82年才能夠買得起房子那我們再看看各縣市的狀況你看到台北市需要16.6年新北市需要14.03年\n43405\t53209\t再看看房貸的負擔率的統計全國的平均是46.8%也創下新高那台北市房貸的負擔率是71.82%新北市是60.69%這個數字顯示就是全國家庭可支配的所得46.8%得拿來繳房貸\n64253\t74688\t尤其是台北市還要拿出七成來付房貸請問一下部長跟林副處長怎麼樣什麼時候才能改善房價所得比偏高的情況請問部長\n78845\t95337\t那個跟委員報告一下那個部分的話主要這個是屬於購屋負擔的一個部分那對於購屋負擔的部分的話當然我們政府這幾年其實有推動了非常多措施像平均地權條例的修法打草防一些相關的法案\n95797\t113909\t那另外的話在我們內政部也有在推動涉宅的興建和租金補貼來照顧民眾的一個需求那如果從去年第三季來看的話其實這個指數的一個漲幅已經有盪下來請問市長你認不認同現在的這個房價所得比是偏高的\n114890\t129367\t現在的話是有相對的一個部分在台北是你的所得七成要來負擔房貸在各縣市我們可以看到其實幾乎啦平均46.8都要拿來付房貸所以我們現在的問題應該是要根本性問題是要解決\n134151\t150636\t這個房價居高的問題嘛那當然因為房價居高所以很多人買不起只能租屋喔那尤其是這個年輕族群啊他們為了北漂或者到地方去別的地方去工作他們只能租屋那所以呢目前我們購屋方面有這個實價登錄的平台\n152436\t176068\t現在做得非常不錯那請問一下部長內政部可不可以做到租賃住宅的實價登錄讓民眾可以輕鬆的報告委員我們在今天的報告裡面有講得非常的清楚只要是公部門能夠掌握的資訊的話要求實價登錄我們都盡量做到這就是我們在租屋市場上面大概有60%左右我們已經公布了那也就是說\n176968\t195212\t另外40%我們就可以繼續來努力然後完成租賃的實價登錄我們會朝著經濟措施來努力但是那為什麼到現在還沒有辦法做到實價登錄剛剛我已經跟很多委員報告過第一個就是租賃契約裡面如果你雙方的是私人的房東或是私人的這個租客那他們在做實價登錄上面的話會不會有不實的一個實價登錄還有\n201713\t206541\t就是他們的這個短期的租約啊能不能達到用公佈門來公佈那這個呢就是在執行層面上會有比較大的不實的實價登錄喔算不算違法\n214108\t239182\t現在沒有規定所以不實實價登錄是可以的如果依照我們仲介的一個條例還有那個租賃條例的規定包租跟仲介的部分如果不實申報他是有罰則那因為現在委員主要是事成的部分就規範以外那個就回歸到民法的一個所以目前是沒有刑罰所以也難怪說房東跟房客之間他們可以用這樣的方式嘛\n239682\t257318\t那我想請教一下當然很多人認為我們也聽到很多說為什麼房東房客自己不去登錄的原因是因為他們知道房東有可能會因此不租給他或者是漲租金那也是因為這樣所以不能用租屋的住宅的實價登錄嗎\n261765\t284386\t委員主要應該是在講說是不是要全面實價登錄的問題那除了仲介跟轉租業者轉租業以外那個部分的話現在是沒有法源沒有法源那也就是說我們要修法的意思沒有立法的部分剛剛部長有提到就會有第一個租約不易掌握那資訊到底會不會失真會不會影響到市場那我問一下您副署長\n286173\t307254\t這個財政部會不會藉由內政部建制這個租屋實價登錄對房東及查課稅如果我們之後有這個租賃實價登錄的話公務委員包括現在的相關實價登錄制度都有法律都有明定說不可以作為課稅的依據好那所以沒有實價登錄我們現在所以不能作為課稅依據也就是財政部不會查囉\n308306\t331035\t不會透過用實價登錄的資料來查這樣子那也就是說查稅這件事情是本來財政部就該做的是是是所以不管我們實價登錄你都會做是是是那既然我覺得這個財政部為了這個付稅公平的一個原則嘛會積極的查這個查處逃漏稅那所以內政部是可以考慮啊針對這個實價登錄的部分我們能夠來積極的處理呢請問部長\n335948\t350791\t報告委員我們現在按照法令上面的規範的部分能夠積極處理的其實我們都處理的差不多了所以現在還有的問題就是在法令的問題嗎因為沒辦法規範它在法律上面沒有這樣強制或者是說有非常大的這個所謂的棍子條款\n351872\t377323\t那所以這個是在我們而且呢現在的市場上面的就是會產生那個負面的效應就是說我們有實價上去的話那會不會變成是租金上漲或者是說他那個房子租不到那這樣子對於比較嚴重的都會地區譬如說像雙北這是我們目前所看到的比較嚴重的地區的話反而會造成負面的效果所以我們才在推動的時候是要以穩健為主對我想這個部分我們今天就是討論嘛\n379384\t394324\t還是希望內政部能夠提出解方看怎麼來去處理這樣的問題否則對於我想很多的租客來說他們也很希望有一個公開的平台他們可以很了解現在租金的狀況那另外再請教部長就是說我們現在看到社宅的租金問題\n395665\t413545\t這個租金可負擔市社宅的這個核心價值那目前內政部是依照身份別來計算租金但是這種做法可能會造成不同所得卻繳交相同租金的垂直不公那另外呢如果租金是採市價打折的方式又會造成不同縣市社宅因為\n414065\t435013\t市場的租金落差過大的水平不公那現在呢中央雖然有提出一些綜合的方案但是呢很像拼裝車沒有辦法真正解決這個財稅資料不足的問題而且也有可能會漏接落市的一個狀況那請問一下地方政府希望採取的是收入分級的方式處理那其實也吵了蠻久了那請問內政部有沒有新的方案\n437294\t451881\t跟委員報告其實我們在從111年開始都已經陸陸續續開過7次的會議那因為各縣市政府其實在六都裡面比較支持多的還是希望能夠原來有的這一個身分別的部分\n452461\t470240\t那再加上部分的這個所得所得分級那所以我們也依據這樣陸陸續續開了七次會大概有一個定案也就是大概不要再去走一定要完全所得分級也不要一定走身份分級那所以最新的這樣的雙方混合出來會分成四級那大概在這個月的26號\n471361\t485184\t那因為在去年11月已經開了第七次會議的時候大致上有一個共識但是回去要個別再了解看看事實上實施以後會不會有新的困擾所以這個部分26號會再討論確認討論完如果確認大家都沒有問題我們來正式來簽報不過這也是給各縣市一個原則一個處理的一個原則我想如果\n493746\t517641\t再經過大家的共同討論那在3月16號可以有這樣的一個報告出來我想我們大概也可以沒有我想跟委員報告一下社會住宅的承租者這是我們內政部所主管的但是還有地方上所主管的部分我們都是列入一起討論那希望說會有共識那共識的還是會有原則跟例外所以這個部分呢讓我們有一點時間再來做比較完整的處理我們也希望有完備的一個方案出來大家共同來解決但我想現在會需要租屋喔\n523464\t538741\t大家也希望能夠住到社會住宅那請部長看一下就是其實這個部分我已經也質詢過很多次了就是有關社會住宅興建的進度統計表部長可以看一下我們社宅的興建的統計表這裡\n543703\t560238\t我們現在以完工的話大概是有33,781戶這是在我們從114年2月28的我們在這個內政部不動產的資訊平台所download下來的我們可以看到然後新建中是54,134戶以絕標代開工是33,285戶總計是121,200戶那請問一下目前到底我們可以入住的有幾戶\n572447\t600345\t我想就是這個數字現在的33,781那因為事實上因為已經在興建中的大概在未來這兩三年就會大量的完成那所以這是過去八年來大家都做了一個努力因為現在內政部對外宣傳的都是說是12萬那就是已經在執行中的但是我就要請教這個署長的是有幾戶是可以入住的所以是三萬多我瞭解但是這也是代表供給不夠的問題\n601926\t628622\t那你當然希望我們當然希望能夠盡快的來去我們一定是盡快完成但是也是還是要表達但是現在其實真正能夠入住就三萬多戶嘛應該表達是說大家還有很大的努力空間當然當然所以我的意思是說我覺得政府要正視這個問題而不是就是美化那個數字比如說我們現在就是三萬多戶可以入住沒有美化而且這個都是在努力中而且在執行中我們還是希望是說但是我們還是來正視這個問題我覺得比較重要還是要正視是說\n631164\t651150\t我們希望地方政府要持續的努力因為我們看到的是地方政府越來越不見了所以我們也是要呼籲希望地方政府要持續的努力我們還是希望我們明確的把這個數字揭露出來那大家一起來努力好嗎最後不好意思 稍微一分鐘我想請教一下劉部長就是\n657492\t686708\t就是根據行政院發布的2025年的性別圖像的性別不平等指數原來亞洲第一是台灣但現在已經被新加坡超前了也不再是亞洲第一而且已經連續兩年退步而且這次發布的成績也叫前次的退步三名請問部長您對於民進黨總召柯建民發表明顯帶有歧視的言論他嗆聲要如舊院市長回歸家庭請問部長有什麼看法\n687048\t715251\t第一個我沒有聽到柯總召什麼時候講這些話我是從媒體上知道的但是我想說任何一個人都不要用性別不平等或是性別不正確的方式來指涉任何人所以部長也是認為不該用這樣的一個方式來去我已經講過因為我不清楚柯總召是講什麼話因為我想希望完整的內容會比較好不要有斷章取義新聞都有 絕對沒有斷章取義您可以去看新聞\n715831\t733076\t那所以部長認為如果是柯總早講這樣的話請盧秀燕市長回歸家庭的話這樣是不適當的對嗎我想任何人講這樣的話的話呢不管他是什麼樣子的一個政黨色彩對於目前我們所推動的這個性別平等教育或性別平等都不是很公平\n733636\t748569\t但是我一再強調我沒有針對個人因為個人他的前言後語是指什麼我並不清楚因為在很多政治人物在講的部分的話我都會比較審慎去看他的前面跟後面等是什麼所以我很高興知道部長講到您對於這種性別平等您是捍衛性別平等的\n750911\t778652\t也不該有這樣歧視的言論吧對嗎 您是這樣謝謝指教是那所以呢我想針對部長來您正在推動一個地方民帶任意性別的保障名額改為三分之一嘛最近我們在推動這樣內政部在推動任何一個性別的保障名額所以這我想這也攸關於整個政府的一個性平形象啦所以還是希望部長對於性平的部分我們大家努力來去捍衛那也希望不要再有這種歧視的言論\n779909\t782035\t好 謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝徐宇甄委員\n","txt":"我想請教部長跟我們尼副署長我們現在台灣的房價居高不下內政部不動產的資訊平台指出2024年第三季全台灣的房價所得比創新高\n來到10.82倍那也就是說民眾要不吃不喝10.82年才能夠買得起房子那我們再看看各縣市的狀況你看到台北市需要16.6年新北市需要14.03年\n再看看房貸的負擔率的統計全國的平均是46.8%也創下新高那台北市房貸的負擔率是71.82%新北市是60.69%這個數字顯示就是全國家庭可支配的所得46.8%得拿來繳房貸\n尤其是台北市還要拿出七成來付房貸請問一下部長跟林副處長怎麼樣什麼時候才能改善房價所得比偏高的情況請問部長\n那個跟委員報告一下那個部分的話主要這個是屬於購屋負擔的一個部分那對於購屋負擔的部分的話當然我們政府這幾年其實有推動了非常多措施像平均地權條例的修法打草防一些相關的法案\n那另外的話在我們內政部也有在推動涉宅的興建和租金補貼來照顧民眾的一個需求那如果從去年第三季來看的話其實這個指數的一個漲幅已經有盪下來請問市長你認不認同現在的這個房價所得比是偏高的\n現在的話是有相對的一個部分在台北是你的所得七成要來負擔房貸在各縣市我們可以看到其實幾乎啦平均46.8都要拿來付房貸所以我們現在的問題應該是要根本性問題是要解決\n這個房價居高的問題嘛那當然因為房價居高所以很多人買不起只能租屋喔那尤其是這個年輕族群啊他們為了北漂或者到地方去別的地方去工作他們只能租屋那所以呢目前我們購屋方面有這個實價登錄的平台\n現在做得非常不錯那請問一下部長內政部可不可以做到租賃住宅的實價登錄讓民眾可以輕鬆的報告委員我們在今天的報告裡面有講得非常的清楚只要是公部門能夠掌握的資訊的話要求實價登錄我們都盡量做到這就是我們在租屋市場上面大概有60%左右我們已經公布了那也就是說\n另外40%我們就可以繼續來努力然後完成租賃的實價登錄我們會朝著經濟措施來努力但是那為什麼到現在還沒有辦法做到實價登錄剛剛我已經跟很多委員報告過第一個就是租賃契約裡面如果你雙方的是私人的房東或是私人的這個租客那他們在做實價登錄上面的話會不會有不實的一個實價登錄還有\n就是他們的這個短期的租約啊能不能達到用公佈門來公佈那這個呢就是在執行層面上會有比較大的不實的實價登錄喔算不算違法\n現在沒有規定所以不實實價登錄是可以的如果依照我們仲介的一個條例還有那個租賃條例的規定包租跟仲介的部分如果不實申報他是有罰則那因為現在委員主要是事成的部分就規範以外那個就回歸到民法的一個所以目前是沒有刑罰所以也難怪說房東跟房客之間他們可以用這樣的方式嘛\n那我想請教一下當然很多人認為我們也聽到很多說為什麼房東房客自己不去登錄的原因是因為他們知道房東有可能會因此不租給他或者是漲租金那也是因為這樣所以不能用租屋的住宅的實價登錄嗎\n委員主要應該是在講說是不是要全面實價登錄的問題那除了仲介跟轉租業者轉租業以外那個部分的話現在是沒有法源沒有法源那也就是說我們要修法的意思沒有立法的部分剛剛部長有提到就會有第一個租約不易掌握那資訊到底會不會失真會不會影響到市場那我問一下您副署長\n這個財政部會不會藉由內政部建制這個租屋實價登錄對房東及查課稅如果我們之後有這個租賃實價登錄的話公務委員包括現在的相關實價登錄制度都有法律都有明定說不可以作為課稅的依據好那所以沒有實價登錄我們現在所以不能作為課稅依據也就是財政部不會查囉\n不會透過用實價登錄的資料來查這樣子那也就是說查稅這件事情是本來財政部就該做的是是是所以不管我們實價登錄你都會做是是是那既然我覺得這個財政部為了這個付稅公平的一個原則嘛會積極的查這個查處逃漏稅那所以內政部是可以考慮啊針對這個實價登錄的部分我們能夠來積極的處理呢請問部長\n報告委員我們現在按照法令上面的規範的部分能夠積極處理的其實我們都處理的差不多了所以現在還有的問題就是在法令的問題嗎因為沒辦法規範它在法律上面沒有這樣強制或者是說有非常大的這個所謂的棍子條款\n那所以這個是在我們而且呢現在的市場上面的就是會產生那個負面的效應就是說我們有實價上去的話那會不會變成是租金上漲或者是說他那個房子租不到那這樣子對於比較嚴重的都會地區譬如說像雙北這是我們目前所看到的比較嚴重的地區的話反而會造成負面的效果所以我們才在推動的時候是要以穩健為主對我想這個部分我們今天就是討論嘛\n還是希望內政部能夠提出解方看怎麼來去處理這樣的問題否則對於我想很多的租客來說他們也很希望有一個公開的平台他們可以很了解現在租金的狀況那另外再請教部長就是說我們現在看到社宅的租金問題\n這個租金可負擔市社宅的這個核心價值那目前內政部是依照身份別來計算租金但是這種做法可能會造成不同所得卻繳交相同租金的垂直不公那另外呢如果租金是採市價打折的方式又會造成不同縣市社宅因為\n市場的租金落差過大的水平不公那現在呢中央雖然有提出一些綜合的方案但是呢很像拼裝車沒有辦法真正解決這個財稅資料不足的問題而且也有可能會漏接落市的一個狀況那請問一下地方政府希望採取的是收入分級的方式處理那其實也吵了蠻久了那請問內政部有沒有新的方案\n跟委員報告其實我們在從111年開始都已經陸陸續續開過7次的會議那因為各縣市政府其實在六都裡面比較支持多的還是希望能夠原來有的這一個身分別的部分\n那再加上部分的這個所得所得分級那所以我們也依據這樣陸陸續續開了七次會大概有一個定案也就是大概不要再去走一定要完全所得分級也不要一定走身份分級那所以最新的這樣的雙方混合出來會分成四級那大概在這個月的26號\n那因為在去年11月已經開了第七次會議的時候大致上有一個共識但是回去要個別再了解看看事實上實施以後會不會有新的困擾所以這個部分26號會再討論確認討論完如果確認大家都沒有問題我們來正式來簽報不過這也是給各縣市一個原則一個處理的一個原則我想如果\n再經過大家的共同討論那在3月16號可以有這樣的一個報告出來我想我們大概也可以沒有我想跟委員報告一下社會住宅的承租者這是我們內政部所主管的但是還有地方上所主管的部分我們都是列入一起討論那希望說會有共識那共識的還是會有原則跟例外所以這個部分呢讓我們有一點時間再來做比較完整的處理我們也希望有完備的一個方案出來大家共同來解決但我想現在會需要租屋喔\n大家也希望能夠住到社會住宅那請部長看一下就是其實這個部分我已經也質詢過很多次了就是有關社會住宅興建的進度統計表部長可以看一下我們社宅的興建的統計表這裡\n我們現在以完工的話大概是有33,781戶這是在我們從114年2月28的我們在這個內政部不動產的資訊平台所download下來的我們可以看到然後新建中是54,134戶以絕標代開工是33,285戶總計是121,200戶那請問一下目前到底我們可以入住的有幾戶\n我想就是這個數字現在的33,781那因為事實上因為已經在興建中的大概在未來這兩三年就會大量的完成那所以這是過去八年來大家都做了一個努力因為現在內政部對外宣傳的都是說是12萬那就是已經在執行中的但是我就要請教這個署長的是有幾戶是可以入住的所以是三萬多我瞭解但是這也是代表供給不夠的問題\n那你當然希望我們當然希望能夠盡快的來去我們一定是盡快完成但是也是還是要表達但是現在其實真正能夠入住就三萬多戶嘛應該表達是說大家還有很大的努力空間當然當然所以我的意思是說我覺得政府要正視這個問題而不是就是美化那個數字比如說我們現在就是三萬多戶可以入住沒有美化而且這個都是在努力中而且在執行中我們還是希望是說但是我們還是來正視這個問題我覺得比較重要還是要正視是說\n我們希望地方政府要持續的努力因為我們看到的是地方政府越來越不見了所以我們也是要呼籲希望地方政府要持續的努力我們還是希望我們明確的把這個數字揭露出來那大家一起來努力好嗎最後不好意思 稍微一分鐘我想請教一下劉部長就是\n就是根據行政院發布的2025年的性別圖像的性別不平等指數原來亞洲第一是台灣但現在已經被新加坡超前了也不再是亞洲第一而且已經連續兩年退步而且這次發布的成績也叫前次的退步三名請問部長您對於民進黨總召柯建民發表明顯帶有歧視的言論他嗆聲要如舊院市長回歸家庭請問部長有什麼看法\n第一個我沒有聽到柯總召什麼時候講這些話我是從媒體上知道的但是我想說任何一個人都不要用性別不平等或是性別不正確的方式來指涉任何人所以部長也是認為不該用這樣的一個方式來去我已經講過因為我不清楚柯總召是講什麼話因為我想希望完整的內容會比較好不要有斷章取義新聞都有 絕對沒有斷章取義您可以去看新聞\n那所以部長認為如果是柯總早講這樣的話請盧秀燕市長回歸家庭的話這樣是不適當的對嗎我想任何人講這樣的話的話呢不管他是什麼樣子的一個政黨色彩對於目前我們所推動的這個性別平等教育或性別平等都不是很公平\n但是我一再強調我沒有針對個人因為個人他的前言後語是指什麼我並不清楚因為在很多政治人物在講的部分的話我都會比較審慎去看他的前面跟後面等是什麼所以我很高興知道部長講到您對於這種性別平等您是捍衛性別平等的\n也不該有這樣歧視的言論吧對嗎 您是這樣謝謝指教是那所以呢我想針對部長來您正在推動一個地方民帶任意性別的保障名額改為三分之一嘛最近我們在推動這樣內政部在推動任何一個性別的保障名額所以這我想這也攸關於整個政府的一個性平形象啦所以還是希望部長對於性平的部分我們大家努力來去捍衛那也希望不要再有這種歧視的言論\n好 謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝徐宇甄委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.269 --> 00:05.733\n我想請教部長跟我們尼副署長我們現在台灣的房價居高不下內政部不動產的資訊平台指出2024年第三季全台灣的房價所得比創新高\n\n00:26.526 --> 00:41.823\n來到10.82倍那也就是說民眾要不吃不喝10.82年才能夠買得起房子那我們再看看各縣市的狀況你看到台北市需要16.6年新北市需要14.03年\n\n00:43.405 --> 00:53.209\n再看看房貸的負擔率的統計全國的平均是46.8%也創下新高那台北市房貸的負擔率是71.82%新北市是60.69%這個數字顯示就是全國家庭可支配的所得46.8%得拿來繳房貸\n\n01:04.253 --> 01:14.688\n尤其是台北市還要拿出七成來付房貸請問一下部長跟林副處長怎麼樣什麼時候才能改善房價所得比偏高的情況請問部長\n\n01:18.845 --> 01:35.337\n那個跟委員報告一下那個部分的話主要這個是屬於購屋負擔的一個部分那對於購屋負擔的部分的話當然我們政府這幾年其實有推動了非常多措施像平均地權條例的修法打草防一些相關的法案\n\n01:35.797 --> 01:53.909\n那另外的話在我們內政部也有在推動涉宅的興建和租金補貼來照顧民眾的一個需求那如果從去年第三季來看的話其實這個指數的一個漲幅已經有盪下來請問市長你認不認同現在的這個房價所得比是偏高的\n\n01:54.890 --> 02:09.367\n現在的話是有相對的一個部分在台北是你的所得七成要來負擔房貸在各縣市我們可以看到其實幾乎啦平均46.8都要拿來付房貸所以我們現在的問題應該是要根本性問題是要解決\n\n02:14.151 --> 02:30.636\n這個房價居高的問題嘛那當然因為房價居高所以很多人買不起只能租屋喔那尤其是這個年輕族群啊他們為了北漂或者到地方去別的地方去工作他們只能租屋那所以呢目前我們購屋方面有這個實價登錄的平台\n\n02:32.436 --> 02:56.068\n現在做得非常不錯那請問一下部長內政部可不可以做到租賃住宅的實價登錄讓民眾可以輕鬆的報告委員我們在今天的報告裡面有講得非常的清楚只要是公部門能夠掌握的資訊的話要求實價登錄我們都盡量做到這就是我們在租屋市場上面大概有60%左右我們已經公布了那也就是說\n\n02:56.968 --> 03:15.212\n另外40%我們就可以繼續來努力然後完成租賃的實價登錄我們會朝著經濟措施來努力但是那為什麼到現在還沒有辦法做到實價登錄剛剛我已經跟很多委員報告過第一個就是租賃契約裡面如果你雙方的是私人的房東或是私人的這個租客那他們在做實價登錄上面的話會不會有不實的一個實價登錄還有\n\n03:21.713 --> 03:26.541\n就是他們的這個短期的租約啊能不能達到用公佈門來公佈那這個呢就是在執行層面上會有比較大的不實的實價登錄喔算不算違法\n\n03:34.108 --> 03:59.182\n現在沒有規定所以不實實價登錄是可以的如果依照我們仲介的一個條例還有那個租賃條例的規定包租跟仲介的部分如果不實申報他是有罰則那因為現在委員主要是事成的部分就規範以外那個就回歸到民法的一個所以目前是沒有刑罰所以也難怪說房東跟房客之間他們可以用這樣的方式嘛\n\n03:59.682 --> 04:17.318\n那我想請教一下當然很多人認為我們也聽到很多說為什麼房東房客自己不去登錄的原因是因為他們知道房東有可能會因此不租給他或者是漲租金那也是因為這樣所以不能用租屋的住宅的實價登錄嗎\n\n04:21.765 --> 04:44.386\n委員主要應該是在講說是不是要全面實價登錄的問題那除了仲介跟轉租業者轉租業以外那個部分的話現在是沒有法源沒有法源那也就是說我們要修法的意思沒有立法的部分剛剛部長有提到就會有第一個租約不易掌握那資訊到底會不會失真會不會影響到市場那我問一下您副署長\n\n04:46.173 --> 05:07.254\n這個財政部會不會藉由內政部建制這個租屋實價登錄對房東及查課稅如果我們之後有這個租賃實價登錄的話公務委員包括現在的相關實價登錄制度都有法律都有明定說不可以作為課稅的依據好那所以沒有實價登錄我們現在所以不能作為課稅依據也就是財政部不會查囉\n\n05:08.306 --> 05:31.035\n不會透過用實價登錄的資料來查這樣子那也就是說查稅這件事情是本來財政部就該做的是是是所以不管我們實價登錄你都會做是是是那既然我覺得這個財政部為了這個付稅公平的一個原則嘛會積極的查這個查處逃漏稅那所以內政部是可以考慮啊針對這個實價登錄的部分我們能夠來積極的處理呢請問部長\n\n05:35.948 --> 05:50.791\n報告委員我們現在按照法令上面的規範的部分能夠積極處理的其實我們都處理的差不多了所以現在還有的問題就是在法令的問題嗎因為沒辦法規範它在法律上面沒有這樣強制或者是說有非常大的這個所謂的棍子條款\n\n05:51.872 --> 06:17.323\n那所以這個是在我們而且呢現在的市場上面的就是會產生那個負面的效應就是說我們有實價上去的話那會不會變成是租金上漲或者是說他那個房子租不到那這樣子對於比較嚴重的都會地區譬如說像雙北這是我們目前所看到的比較嚴重的地區的話反而會造成負面的效果所以我們才在推動的時候是要以穩健為主對我想這個部分我們今天就是討論嘛\n\n06:19.384 --> 06:34.324\n還是希望內政部能夠提出解方看怎麼來去處理這樣的問題否則對於我想很多的租客來說他們也很希望有一個公開的平台他們可以很了解現在租金的狀況那另外再請教部長就是說我們現在看到社宅的租金問題\n\n06:35.665 --> 06:53.545\n這個租金可負擔市社宅的這個核心價值那目前內政部是依照身份別來計算租金但是這種做法可能會造成不同所得卻繳交相同租金的垂直不公那另外呢如果租金是採市價打折的方式又會造成不同縣市社宅因為\n\n06:54.065 --> 07:15.013\n市場的租金落差過大的水平不公那現在呢中央雖然有提出一些綜合的方案但是呢很像拼裝車沒有辦法真正解決這個財稅資料不足的問題而且也有可能會漏接落市的一個狀況那請問一下地方政府希望採取的是收入分級的方式處理那其實也吵了蠻久了那請問內政部有沒有新的方案\n\n07:17.294 --> 07:31.881\n跟委員報告其實我們在從111年開始都已經陸陸續續開過7次的會議那因為各縣市政府其實在六都裡面比較支持多的還是希望能夠原來有的這一個身分別的部分\n\n07:32.461 --> 07:50.240\n那再加上部分的這個所得所得分級那所以我們也依據這樣陸陸續續開了七次會大概有一個定案也就是大概不要再去走一定要完全所得分級也不要一定走身份分級那所以最新的這樣的雙方混合出來會分成四級那大概在這個月的26號\n\n07:51.361 --> 08:05.184\n那因為在去年11月已經開了第七次會議的時候大致上有一個共識但是回去要個別再了解看看事實上實施以後會不會有新的困擾所以這個部分26號會再討論確認討論完如果確認大家都沒有問題我們來正式來簽報不過這也是給各縣市一個原則一個處理的一個原則我想如果\n\n08:13.746 --> 08:37.641\n再經過大家的共同討論那在3月16號可以有這樣的一個報告出來我想我們大概也可以沒有我想跟委員報告一下社會住宅的承租者這是我們內政部所主管的但是還有地方上所主管的部分我們都是列入一起討論那希望說會有共識那共識的還是會有原則跟例外所以這個部分呢讓我們有一點時間再來做比較完整的處理我們也希望有完備的一個方案出來大家共同來解決但我想現在會需要租屋喔\n\n08:43.464 --> 08:58.741\n大家也希望能夠住到社會住宅那請部長看一下就是其實這個部分我已經也質詢過很多次了就是有關社會住宅興建的進度統計表部長可以看一下我們社宅的興建的統計表這裡\n\n09:03.703 --> 09:20.238\n我們現在以完工的話大概是有33,781戶這是在我們從114年2月28的我們在這個內政部不動產的資訊平台所download下來的我們可以看到然後新建中是54,134戶以絕標代開工是33,285戶總計是121,200戶那請問一下目前到底我們可以入住的有幾戶\n\n09:32.447 --> 10:00.345\n我想就是這個數字現在的33,781那因為事實上因為已經在興建中的大概在未來這兩三年就會大量的完成那所以這是過去八年來大家都做了一個努力因為現在內政部對外宣傳的都是說是12萬那就是已經在執行中的但是我就要請教這個署長的是有幾戶是可以入住的所以是三萬多我瞭解但是這也是代表供給不夠的問題\n\n10:01.926 --> 10:28.622\n那你當然希望我們當然希望能夠盡快的來去我們一定是盡快完成但是也是還是要表達但是現在其實真正能夠入住就三萬多戶嘛應該表達是說大家還有很大的努力空間當然當然所以我的意思是說我覺得政府要正視這個問題而不是就是美化那個數字比如說我們現在就是三萬多戶可以入住沒有美化而且這個都是在努力中而且在執行中我們還是希望是說但是我們還是來正視這個問題我覺得比較重要還是要正視是說\n\n10:31.164 --> 10:51.150\n我們希望地方政府要持續的努力因為我們看到的是地方政府越來越不見了所以我們也是要呼籲希望地方政府要持續的努力我們還是希望我們明確的把這個數字揭露出來那大家一起來努力好嗎最後不好意思稍微一分鐘我想請教一下劉部長就是\n\n10:57.492 --> 11:26.708\n就是根據行政院發布的2025年的性別圖像的性別不平等指數原來亞洲第一是台灣但現在已經被新加坡超前了也不再是亞洲第一而且已經連續兩年退步而且這次發布的成績也叫前次的退步三名請問部長您對於民進黨總召柯建民發表明顯帶有歧視的言論他嗆聲要如舊院市長回歸家庭請問部長有什麼看法\n\n11:27.048 --> 11:55.251\n第一個我沒有聽到柯總召什麼時候講這些話我是從媒體上知道的但是我想說任何一個人都不要用性別不平等或是性別不正確的方式來指涉任何人所以部長也是認為不該用這樣的一個方式來去我已經講過因為我不清楚柯總召是講什麼話因為我想希望完整的內容會比較好不要有斷章取義新聞都有絕對沒有斷章取義您可以去看新聞\n\n11:55.831 --> 12:13.076\n那所以部長認為如果是柯總早講這樣的話請盧秀燕市長回歸家庭的話這樣是不適當的對嗎我想任何人講這樣的話的話呢不管他是什麼樣子的一個政黨色彩對於目前我們所推動的這個性別平等教育或性別平等都不是很公平\n\n12:13.636 --> 12:28.569\n但是我一再強調我沒有針對個人因為個人他的前言後語是指什麼我並不清楚因為在很多政治人物在講的部分的話我都會比較審慎去看他的前面跟後面等是什麼所以我很高興知道部長講到您對於這種性別平等您是捍衛性別平等的\n\n12:30.911 --> 12:58.652\n也不該有這樣歧視的言論吧對嗎您是這樣謝謝指教是那所以呢我想針對部長來您正在推動一個地方民帶任意性別的保障名額改為三分之一嘛最近我們在推動這樣內政部在推動任何一個性別的保障名額所以這我想這也攸關於整個政府的一個性平形象啦所以還是希望部長對於性平的部分我們大家努力來去捍衛那也希望不要再有這種歧視的言論\n\n12:59.909 --> 13:02.035\n好謝謝謝謝好謝謝徐宇甄委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.269,"end":5.733,"text":"我想請教部長跟我們尼副署長我們現在台灣的房價居高不下內政部不動產的資訊平台指出2024年第三季全台灣的房價所得比創新高"},{"start":26.526,"end":41.823,"text":"來到10.82倍那也就是說民眾要不吃不喝10.82年才能夠買得起房子那我們再看看各縣市的狀況你看到台北市需要16.6年新北市需要14.03年"},{"start":43.405,"end":53.209,"text":"再看看房貸的負擔率的統計全國的平均是46.8%也創下新高那台北市房貸的負擔率是71.82%新北市是60.69%這個數字顯示就是全國家庭可支配的所得46.8%得拿來繳房貸"},{"start":64.253,"end":74.688,"text":"尤其是台北市還要拿出七成來付房貸請問一下部長跟林副處長怎麼樣什麼時候才能改善房價所得比偏高的情況請問部長"},{"start":78.845,"end":95.337,"text":"那個跟委員報告一下那個部分的話主要這個是屬於購屋負擔的一個部分那對於購屋負擔的部分的話當然我們政府這幾年其實有推動了非常多措施像平均地權條例的修法打草防一些相關的法案"},{"start":95.797,"end":113.909,"text":"那另外的話在我們內政部也有在推動涉宅的興建和租金補貼來照顧民眾的一個需求那如果從去年第三季來看的話其實這個指數的一個漲幅已經有盪下來請問市長你認不認同現在的這個房價所得比是偏高的"},{"start":114.89,"end":129.367,"text":"現在的話是有相對的一個部分在台北是你的所得七成要來負擔房貸在各縣市我們可以看到其實幾乎啦平均46.8都要拿來付房貸所以我們現在的問題應該是要根本性問題是要解決"},{"start":134.151,"end":150.636,"text":"這個房價居高的問題嘛那當然因為房價居高所以很多人買不起只能租屋喔那尤其是這個年輕族群啊他們為了北漂或者到地方去別的地方去工作他們只能租屋那所以呢目前我們購屋方面有這個實價登錄的平台"},{"start":152.436,"end":176.068,"text":"現在做得非常不錯那請問一下部長內政部可不可以做到租賃住宅的實價登錄讓民眾可以輕鬆的報告委員我們在今天的報告裡面有講得非常的清楚只要是公部門能夠掌握的資訊的話要求實價登錄我們都盡量做到這就是我們在租屋市場上面大概有60%左右我們已經公布了那也就是說"},{"start":176.968,"end":195.212,"text":"另外40%我們就可以繼續來努力然後完成租賃的實價登錄我們會朝著經濟措施來努力但是那為什麼到現在還沒有辦法做到實價登錄剛剛我已經跟很多委員報告過第一個就是租賃契約裡面如果你雙方的是私人的房東或是私人的這個租客那他們在做實價登錄上面的話會不會有不實的一個實價登錄還有"},{"start":201.713,"end":206.541,"text":"就是他們的這個短期的租約啊能不能達到用公佈門來公佈那這個呢就是在執行層面上會有比較大的不實的實價登錄喔算不算違法"},{"start":214.108,"end":239.182,"text":"現在沒有規定所以不實實價登錄是可以的如果依照我們仲介的一個條例還有那個租賃條例的規定包租跟仲介的部分如果不實申報他是有罰則那因為現在委員主要是事成的部分就規範以外那個就回歸到民法的一個所以目前是沒有刑罰所以也難怪說房東跟房客之間他們可以用這樣的方式嘛"},{"start":239.682,"end":257.318,"text":"那我想請教一下當然很多人認為我們也聽到很多說為什麼房東房客自己不去登錄的原因是因為他們知道房東有可能會因此不租給他或者是漲租金那也是因為這樣所以不能用租屋的住宅的實價登錄嗎"},{"start":261.765,"end":284.386,"text":"委員主要應該是在講說是不是要全面實價登錄的問題那除了仲介跟轉租業者轉租業以外那個部分的話現在是沒有法源沒有法源那也就是說我們要修法的意思沒有立法的部分剛剛部長有提到就會有第一個租約不易掌握那資訊到底會不會失真會不會影響到市場那我問一下您副署長"},{"start":286.173,"end":307.254,"text":"這個財政部會不會藉由內政部建制這個租屋實價登錄對房東及查課稅如果我們之後有這個租賃實價登錄的話公務委員包括現在的相關實價登錄制度都有法律都有明定說不可以作為課稅的依據好那所以沒有實價登錄我們現在所以不能作為課稅依據也就是財政部不會查囉"},{"start":308.306,"end":331.035,"text":"不會透過用實價登錄的資料來查這樣子那也就是說查稅這件事情是本來財政部就該做的是是是所以不管我們實價登錄你都會做是是是那既然我覺得這個財政部為了這個付稅公平的一個原則嘛會積極的查這個查處逃漏稅那所以內政部是可以考慮啊針對這個實價登錄的部分我們能夠來積極的處理呢請問部長"},{"start":335.948,"end":350.791,"text":"報告委員我們現在按照法令上面的規範的部分能夠積極處理的其實我們都處理的差不多了所以現在還有的問題就是在法令的問題嗎因為沒辦法規範它在法律上面沒有這樣強制或者是說有非常大的這個所謂的棍子條款"},{"start":351.872,"end":377.323,"text":"那所以這個是在我們而且呢現在的市場上面的就是會產生那個負面的效應就是說我們有實價上去的話那會不會變成是租金上漲或者是說他那個房子租不到那這樣子對於比較嚴重的都會地區譬如說像雙北這是我們目前所看到的比較嚴重的地區的話反而會造成負面的效果所以我們才在推動的時候是要以穩健為主對我想這個部分我們今天就是討論嘛"},{"start":379.384,"end":394.324,"text":"還是希望內政部能夠提出解方看怎麼來去處理這樣的問題否則對於我想很多的租客來說他們也很希望有一個公開的平台他們可以很了解現在租金的狀況那另外再請教部長就是說我們現在看到社宅的租金問題"},{"start":395.665,"end":413.545,"text":"這個租金可負擔市社宅的這個核心價值那目前內政部是依照身份別來計算租金但是這種做法可能會造成不同所得卻繳交相同租金的垂直不公那另外呢如果租金是採市價打折的方式又會造成不同縣市社宅因為"},{"start":414.065,"end":435.013,"text":"市場的租金落差過大的水平不公那現在呢中央雖然有提出一些綜合的方案但是呢很像拼裝車沒有辦法真正解決這個財稅資料不足的問題而且也有可能會漏接落市的一個狀況那請問一下地方政府希望採取的是收入分級的方式處理那其實也吵了蠻久了那請問內政部有沒有新的方案"},{"start":437.294,"end":451.881,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們在從111年開始都已經陸陸續續開過7次的會議那因為各縣市政府其實在六都裡面比較支持多的還是希望能夠原來有的這一個身分別的部分"},{"start":452.461,"end":470.24,"text":"那再加上部分的這個所得所得分級那所以我們也依據這樣陸陸續續開了七次會大概有一個定案也就是大概不要再去走一定要完全所得分級也不要一定走身份分級那所以最新的這樣的雙方混合出來會分成四級那大概在這個月的26號"},{"start":471.361,"end":485.184,"text":"那因為在去年11月已經開了第七次會議的時候大致上有一個共識但是回去要個別再了解看看事實上實施以後會不會有新的困擾所以這個部分26號會再討論確認討論完如果確認大家都沒有問題我們來正式來簽報不過這也是給各縣市一個原則一個處理的一個原則我想如果"},{"start":493.746,"end":517.641,"text":"再經過大家的共同討論那在3月16號可以有這樣的一個報告出來我想我們大概也可以沒有我想跟委員報告一下社會住宅的承租者這是我們內政部所主管的但是還有地方上所主管的部分我們都是列入一起討論那希望說會有共識那共識的還是會有原則跟例外所以這個部分呢讓我們有一點時間再來做比較完整的處理我們也希望有完備的一個方案出來大家共同來解決但我想現在會需要租屋喔"},{"start":523.464,"end":538.741,"text":"大家也希望能夠住到社會住宅那請部長看一下就是其實這個部分我已經也質詢過很多次了就是有關社會住宅興建的進度統計表部長可以看一下我們社宅的興建的統計表這裡"},{"start":543.703,"end":560.238,"text":"我們現在以完工的話大概是有33,781戶這是在我們從114年2月28的我們在這個內政部不動產的資訊平台所download下來的我們可以看到然後新建中是54,134戶以絕標代開工是33,285戶總計是121,200戶那請問一下目前到底我們可以入住的有幾戶"},{"start":572.447,"end":600.345,"text":"我想就是這個數字現在的33,781那因為事實上因為已經在興建中的大概在未來這兩三年就會大量的完成那所以這是過去八年來大家都做了一個努力因為現在內政部對外宣傳的都是說是12萬那就是已經在執行中的但是我就要請教這個署長的是有幾戶是可以入住的所以是三萬多我瞭解但是這也是代表供給不夠的問題"},{"start":601.926,"end":628.622,"text":"那你當然希望我們當然希望能夠盡快的來去我們一定是盡快完成但是也是還是要表達但是現在其實真正能夠入住就三萬多戶嘛應該表達是說大家還有很大的努力空間當然當然所以我的意思是說我覺得政府要正視這個問題而不是就是美化那個數字比如說我們現在就是三萬多戶可以入住沒有美化而且這個都是在努力中而且在執行中我們還是希望是說但是我們還是來正視這個問題我覺得比較重要還是要正視是說"},{"start":631.164,"end":651.15,"text":"我們希望地方政府要持續的努力因為我們看到的是地方政府越來越不見了所以我們也是要呼籲希望地方政府要持續的努力我們還是希望我們明確的把這個數字揭露出來那大家一起來努力好嗎最後不好意思 稍微一分鐘我想請教一下劉部長就是"},{"start":657.492,"end":686.708,"text":"就是根據行政院發布的2025年的性別圖像的性別不平等指數原來亞洲第一是台灣但現在已經被新加坡超前了也不再是亞洲第一而且已經連續兩年退步而且這次發布的成績也叫前次的退步三名請問部長您對於民進黨總召柯建民發表明顯帶有歧視的言論他嗆聲要如舊院市長回歸家庭請問部長有什麼看法"},{"start":687.048,"end":715.251,"text":"第一個我沒有聽到柯總召什麼時候講這些話我是從媒體上知道的但是我想說任何一個人都不要用性別不平等或是性別不正確的方式來指涉任何人所以部長也是認為不該用這樣的一個方式來去我已經講過因為我不清楚柯總召是講什麼話因為我想希望完整的內容會比較好不要有斷章取義新聞都有 絕對沒有斷章取義您可以去看新聞"},{"start":715.831,"end":733.076,"text":"那所以部長認為如果是柯總早講這樣的話請盧秀燕市長回歸家庭的話這樣是不適當的對嗎我想任何人講這樣的話的話呢不管他是什麼樣子的一個政黨色彩對於目前我們所推動的這個性別平等教育或性別平等都不是很公平"},{"start":733.636,"end":748.569,"text":"但是我一再強調我沒有針對個人因為個人他的前言後語是指什麼我並不清楚因為在很多政治人物在講的部分的話我都會比較審慎去看他的前面跟後面等是什麼所以我很高興知道部長講到您對於這種性別平等您是捍衛性別平等的"},{"start":750.911,"end":778.652,"text":"也不該有這樣歧視的言論吧對嗎 您是這樣謝謝指教是那所以呢我想針對部長來您正在推動一個地方民帶任意性別的保障名額改為三分之一嘛最近我們在推動這樣內政部在推動任何一個性別的保障名額所以這我想這也攸關於整個政府的一個性平形象啦所以還是希望部長對於性平的部分我們大家努力來去捍衛那也希望不要再有這種歧視的言論"},{"start":779.909,"end":782.035,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝徐宇甄委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":627,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（11時5分）謝謝召委。請劉世芳部長以及賦稅署倪副署長。"],["主席：劉部長、倪副署長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：徐委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：部長好。請教部長跟倪副署長，現在臺灣的房價居高不下，內政部不動產資訊平臺指出，2024年第三季全臺灣的房價所得比創新高，來到10.82倍，也就是說，民眾要不吃不喝10.82年才能夠買得起房子。我們再看看各縣市的狀況，臺北市需要16.6年，新北市需要14.03年；再看看房貸負擔率的統計，全國平均是46.8%，也創下新高，臺北市房貸的負擔率是71.82%，新北市是60.69%，這個數字顯示全國家庭可支配所得的有46.8%都得拿來繳房貸，尤其是臺北市還要拿出七成來付房貸，請問一下部長跟倪副署長，什麼時候才能改善房價所得比偏高的情況？"],["劉部長世芳：我請司長說明。"],["許委員宇甄：好，請。"],["林代理司長家正：跟委員報告，這個主要是屬於購屋負擔的部分，當然政府這幾年其實推動了非常多的措施，像平均地權條例的修法、打炒房一些相關法案，另外，我們內政部也有推動社宅興建和租金補貼來照顧民眾需求。如果從去年第三季來看，其實這個指數的漲幅已經有down下來，隨著央行的……"],["許委員宇甄：請問司長，你認不認同現在的房價所得比是偏高的？"],["林代理司長家正：現在的話有部分是相對的高……"],["許委員宇甄：現在還是偏高嘛！住在臺北市，所得七成要來負擔房貸！我們可以看到，其實在各縣市幾乎平均46.8%要拿來付房貸，所以我們現在根本要解決的是房價居高的問題，當然因為房價高，很多人買不起，只能租屋，尤其是年輕族群，他們可能北漂，或者到別的地方工作，只能租屋。目前我們購屋方面的實價登錄平臺做得非常不錯，但想要請問部長，內政部可不可以做到租賃住宅的實價登錄，讓民眾可以輕鬆查核？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們在今天的報告裡講得非常清楚，只要是公部門能夠掌握的資訊，要求實價登錄，我們都儘量做到，這就是目前租屋市場上大概有60%左右我們是已經公布的。"],["許委員宇甄：也就是說，另外40%我們可以繼續努力，完成租賃的實價登錄，可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們會朝著精進措施來努力，但需要達到……"],["許委員宇甄：那為什麼到現在還沒有辦法做到實價登錄？"],["劉部長世芳：剛剛我已經跟很多委員報告過，第一，租賃契約裡面，如果雙方是私人的房東或私人的租客，他們在實價登錄上，會不會有不實的實價登錄？還有，他們短期的租約能不能達到用公部門來公布？這就是執行層面上比較大的……"],["許委員宇甄：請問，不實的實價登錄，算不算違法？"],["林代理司長家正：現在沒有規定。"],["許委員宇甄：所以不實實價登錄是可以的？"],["林代理司長家正：依照我們的仲介條例，還有租賃條例等相關規定，包租跟仲介的部分，如果不實申報，是有罰則的，因為現在委員提到的主要是規範以外的四成部分，那就必須回歸民法規定，目前是沒有處罰。"],["許委員宇甄：目前沒有刑罰，難怪房東跟房客之間可以用這樣的方式。另外，我們也聽到很多人說房客不去登錄的原因，是因為他們知道房東有可能因此不租給他房子，或者漲租金，也是因為這樣，所以不能用租屋的實價登錄嗎？"],["林代理司長家正：委員主要應該是在講說是不是要全面實價登錄的問題？"],["許委員宇甄：對。"],["林代理司長家正：除了仲介跟業者轉租約以外，那個部分的話，現在是沒有法源。"],["許委員宇甄：沒有法源？也就是說我們要修法的意思？"],["林代理司長家正：沒有立法的部分，剛剛部長有提到，第一個，租約不易掌握，那資訊到底會不會失真，會不會影響到市場的問題。"],["許委員宇甄：好。那我問一下倪副署長，財政部會不會藉由內政部建置租屋實價登錄，對房東稽查課稅？如果我們之後有這個租賃實價登錄的話。"],["倪副署長麗心：跟委員報告，現在的相關實價登錄制度，法律都有明定不可以作為課稅的依據。"],["許委員宇甄：好，所以實價登錄不能作為課稅依據，也就是財政部不會查囉？"],["倪副署長麗心：不會透過用實價登錄的資料來查。"],["許委員宇甄：也就是說查稅這件事情本來財政部就該做？"],["倪副署長麗心：是。"],["許委員宇甄：所以不管有沒有實價登錄你都會做？"],["倪副署長麗心：是。"],["許委員宇甄：我覺得財政部為了賦稅公平的原則，會積極的查處逃漏稅，所以內政部是否可以考慮針對實價登錄的部分來積極處理呢？請問部長。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們現在按照法令上面的規範部分，能夠積極處理的，其實我們都處理得差不多了，就像我們剛剛所說……"],["許委員宇甄：所以現在還有的問題就是在法令的問題嗎？因為沒辦法規範它。"],["劉部長世芳：是，在法律上面沒有這樣強制或者是說有非常大的所謂棍子條款，而且現在的市場上面就會產生負面的效應，就是說我們有實價上去的話，那會不會變成租金上漲或者房子租不到，這樣子對於比較嚴重的都會地區，譬如說像雙北，這是我們目前所看到的比較嚴重的地區，反而會造成負面的效果，所以我們才在推動的時候是以穩健為主，我們會朝著透明化來推動。"],["許委員宇甄：這個部分我們今天就是討論嘛！還是希望內政部能夠提出解方，看怎麼來去處理這樣的問題，否則對於很多的租客來說，他們也很希望有一個公開的平臺，可以很了解現在租金的狀況。","另外，再請教部長，我們現在看到社宅的租金問題，租金可負擔是社宅的核心價值，目前內政部是依照身分別來計算租金，但是這種作法可能會造成不同所得卻繳交相同租金的垂直不公。另外，如果租金是採市價打折的方式，又會造成不同縣市社宅，因為市場的租金落差過大的水平不公。現在中央雖然有提出一些綜合的方案，但是很像拼裝車，沒有辦法真正解決財稅資料不足的問題，而且也有可能會漏接弱勢的狀況。那請問一下，地方政府希望採取的是收入分級的方式處理，其實也吵了滿久了，請問內政部有沒有新的方案？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實我們從111年開始，都已經陸陸續續開過7次會議，因為各縣市政府……其實在六都裡面，支持比較多的還是原來有的身分別的部分，再加上部分的所得分級，所以我們也依據這樣陸陸續續開了7次會，大概有一個定案，也就是不要再去走一定要完全所得分級，也不要一定走身分分級，所以新的雙方混合出來會分成4級。大概在這個月的26號，因為在去年11月開了第7次會議的時候，大致上有一個共識，但是回去要個別再了解看看實施以後會不會有新的困擾，所以這個部分26號會再來討論確認。"],["許委員宇甄：所以3月26號就會公布嗎？就是你們現在……"],["吳署長欣修：討論完如果確認大家都沒有問題，我們會正式來簽報，不過這也是給各縣市的一個原則，一個處理的原則。"],["許委員宇甄：我想如果經過大家的共同討論，在3月26號可以有這樣的一個報告出來，我想我們大家也可以……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，我想跟委員報告一下，社會住宅的承租者是我們內政部所主管的，但是還有地方上所主管的部分，我們都是列入一起討論，希望會有共識，但共識還是會有原則跟例外，所以這個部分讓我們有一點時間再來做比較完整的處理，這樣對於租客會比較公平。"],["許委員宇甄：我想這個會有完備的方案出來，大家共來解決，但我想現在會需要租屋的人，大家都很希望能夠租到社會住宅，其實這個部分我也已經質詢過很多次了，就是有關社會住宅興建的進度統計表。部長可以看一下社宅的興建統計表，已完工的話，大概是有3萬3,781戶，這是我們在114年2月28日從內政部不動產的資訊平臺所download下來的，然後興建中是5萬4,134戶，已決標待開工是3萬3,285戶，總計是12萬1,200戶。請問一下，目前到底我們可以入住的有幾戶？"],["吳署長欣修：我想就是這個數字，現在的3萬3,781，因為已經在興建中的，大概在未來這兩三年就會大量的完成，所以這是過去8年來大家所做的一個努力。"],["許委員宇甄：因為現在內政部對外宣傳的都說是12萬1,200戶嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：就是已經在執行中的，確定……"],["許委員宇甄：但是我要請教署長的是，有幾戶是可以入住的？是三萬多戶嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：我了解，但這也是代表……"],["許委員宇甄：所以這就是供給不夠的問題，那我們當然希望……"],["吳署長欣修：不一定。"],["許委員宇甄：我們當然希望能夠儘快地來去完成這樣的供給。"],["吳署長欣修：我們一定是儘快完成，但是也還是要表達就是說……"],["許委員宇甄：但是現在其實真正能夠入住的就是三萬多戶，而不是12萬戶吧？"],["吳署長欣修：應該表達是說大家還有很大的努力空間。"],["許委員宇甄：當然，所以我的意思是說，我覺得政府要正視這個問題，而不是去美化那個數字，比如說我們現在就是三萬多戶可以入住……"],["吳署長欣修：沒有美化，而且這個都是在努力中，而且在執行中，我們還是希望……"],["許委員宇甄：確實就是美化。我知道要努力，但是我們還是來正視這個問題，我覺得這樣比較重要。"],["吳署長欣修：不是，還是要正視是說，我們希望地方政府要持續地努力，因為我們看到的是地方政府越來越不見了……"],["許委員宇甄：中央地方一起來努力，對嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：越來越不見了，所以我們也是要呼籲，希望地方政府要持續地努力來興建。"],["許委員宇甄：那就中央地方一起來努力，我們還是希望我們明確地把這個數字揭露出來，那大家一起來努力好嗎？","最後不好意思，召委再給我一分鐘。我想請教一下劉部長，根據行政院發布的2025年性別圖像的性別不平等指數，原來亞洲第一是臺灣，但現在已經被新加坡超前，也不再是亞洲第一，而且已經連續兩年退步，這次發布的成績也較前次的退步三名。請問部長，您對於民進黨總召柯建銘發表明顯帶有歧視的言論，他嗆聲要盧秀燕市長回歸家庭，請問部長有什麼看法？"],["劉部長世芳：第一個，我沒有聽到柯總召什麼時候講這些話，我是從媒體上知道的，但是我想任何一個人都不要用性別不平等或是性別不正確的方式來指涉任何人。"],["許委員宇甄：所以部長也認為不該用這樣的一個方式去……"],["劉部長世芳：我已經講過，因為我不清楚柯總召是講什麼話，我希望有完整的內容會比較好，不要斷章取義。"],["許委員宇甄：我想新聞您可以去看一下，新聞都有，絕對沒有斷章取義，您可以去看新聞。所以部長認為，如果柯總召講請盧秀燕市長回歸家庭的話，這樣是不適當的對嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我想任何人講這樣的話，不管他是什麼樣子的政黨色彩，對於目前我們所推動的性別平等教育或性別平等都不是很公平，但是我一再強調，我沒有針對個人，因為個人他的前言後語是什麼我並不清楚，很多政治人物講話的部分，我都會比較審慎去看他前面跟後面講的是什麼。"],["許委員宇甄：我很高興聽到部長講到您對於這種性別平等，您是捍衛性別平等的，也不該有這樣歧視的言論，對嗎？您是這樣的？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝指教。"],["許委員宇甄：所以部長，您正在推動地方民代任一性別的保障名額改為三分之一，最近內政部在推動任何一個性別的保障名額。"],["劉部長世芳：是，內政部有這樣的推動。"],["許委員宇甄：所以我想這也攸關於整個政府的性平形象嘛！所以還是希望部長對於性平的部分，我們大家努力來去捍衛，那也希望不要再有這樣歧視的言論。"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝。"],["許委員宇甄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員。","下一位我們請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-5","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","張啓楷","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","黃健豪","黃珊珊","鍾佳濱","郭國文","高金素梅"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、行政院消費者保護處處長、財政部就「租賃住宅市場透明化之現況及展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00002"}}}