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{\"word\": \"宅\", \"start\": 250.973, \"end\": 251.133, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 251.133, \"end\": 251.313, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 251.313, \"end\": 251.433, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"身\", \"start\": 251.433, \"end\": 251.934, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 251.934, \"end\": 252.094, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 252.094, \"end\": 252.254, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 252.254, \"end\": 252.755, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"優\"}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 252.755, \"end\": 252.895, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 252.895, \"end\": 253.115, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 253.115, \"end\": 253.375, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"障\", \"start\": 253.375, \"end\": 253.616, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 253.616, \"end\": 253.636, \"score\": 0.954}]}, {\"start\": 254.236, \"end\": 279.356, \"text\": \"當然就是所謂的經濟或社會弱勢者那如果你真的只蓋25萬戶我就會產生一個嚴重的社會後果就大家會說標線化的問題啦所以我們當然希望不能只有25萬戶當然這在我的理論裡面所以我們才說反推回來如果按照所謂的4成提供給弱勢團體6成提供給當地就業者的比例合理的數字應該是要來到至少60萬戶才能夠符合這個整個國家的這個狀態嘛\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 254.236, \"end\": 254.376, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 254.376, \"end\": 254.476, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 254.476, \"end\": 254.536, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 254.536, \"end\": 254.737, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"謂\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 254.737, \"end\": 255.537, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 255.537, \"end\": 255.657, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 255.657, \"end\": 255.857, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"弱\", \"start\": 255.857, \"end\": 256.158, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"勢\"}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 256.158, \"end\": 256.738, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 256.738, 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{\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 271.89, \"end\": 272.431, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 272.431, \"end\": 272.651, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 272.651, \"end\": 272.771, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 272.771, \"end\": 272.971, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 272.971, \"end\": 273.171, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 273.171, \"end\": 273.732, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 273.732, \"end\": 273.952, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 273.952, \"end\": 274.112, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 274.112, \"end\": 274.572, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"字\", \"start\": 274.572, \"end\": 275.173, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 275.173, \"end\": 275.253, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 275.253, \"end\": 275.573, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 275.573, \"end\": 275.713, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 275.713, \"end\": 275.813, \"score\": 0.602}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 275.813, \"end\": 277.154, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"戶\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 277.154, \"end\": 277.274, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 277.274, \"end\": 277.615, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"符\", \"start\": 277.615, \"end\": 277.795, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 277.795, \"end\": 278.755, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 278.755, \"end\": 279.176, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 279.176, \"end\": 279.316, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 279.316, \"end\": 279.336, \"score\": 0.678}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"態\"}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 279.336, \"end\": 279.356, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 280.757, \"end\": 302.607, \"text\": \"所以我不知道在這樣子60萬以60萬為目標的情況下有可能內政部有可能達成嗎那如果有可能會預計要幾年來達成應該跟委員報告啦因為直接興建是逐年逐年在補但是其實為什麼我們在對待這些社會弱勢或者是他要靠租金補貼跟包租貸款因為他們相對有時候他的移動性是比較小的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 280.757, \"end\": 280.817, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 280.817, \"end\": 280.837, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 280.837, \"end\": 280.917, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 280.917, \"end\": 280.957, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 280.957, \"end\": 280.997, \"score\": 0.48}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 280.997, \"end\": 281.858, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 281.858, \"end\": 282.318, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 282.318, \"end\": 283.158, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, 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\"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 476.487, \"end\": 476.507, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 476.507, \"end\": 476.587, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"黃\"}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 476.587, \"end\": 476.647, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"和\", \"start\": 476.647, \"end\": 476.687, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 476.687, \"end\": 476.707, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,844 --> 00:00:35,801\n好謝謝主席主席我們請內政部劉部長劉部長有請部長好部長我是外委的所以時間比較有限但是我還是要跟部長來關心一下我們這個全國社會住宅新辦的進度我想說每年的過去總之我都有關心但是今年總之我時間不夠就沒有問到所以剛好今天內政部有來我也跟部長請教一下去年要024年113年的2月底的\n\n2\n00:00:36,181 --> 00:00:53,524\n達成數中央4672的地方18257基本上這個數字那過了一年之後到今年中央的社宅完工數是4990那地方是28791我想這個數字很明顯可以看到這個中央在新辦社宅的數字上大概只增加了好大約300戶\n\n3\n00:00:54,525 --> 00:01:11,294\n那地方政府興建的社宅大概增加一萬戶當然從整個國家的角度來講不分中央地方大家都是為了民眾在蓋這個社宅希望大家能夠達到居住這一年的目標但是我想請教一下部長到底是什麼原因讓這個中央蓋的比例到了進度這麼慢\n\n4\n00:01:13,717 --> 00:01:28,935\n因為原來在設宅第一期的時候就是希望以地方為主中央給財務的補貼但是我們從108年大概就觀察到一個地方興建的速度已經放緩了就開工發包的數量已經放緩而且放緩的速度很快\n\n5\n00:01:29,655 --> 00:01:53,829\n所以中央才決定自己進場來興建所以我們大致上從109年開始去辦發包那所以如果照正常我們一般大樓大概是4年左右的一個規劃興建4到5年的規劃興建的話那中央的部分大概會在今年開始有比較大幅度的一個完工的數據今年大概會有5700戶左右明年大概還會再增加\n\n6\n00:01:54,489 --> 00:02:11,058\n大概一萬一千戶所以大概中央會從今年開始大概會每年連續性的這個數量會比較大幅的成長好署長謝謝因為這個按照過去內政部在第一階段新辦這個涉宅的投入的狀況來講當時啦一戶的成本大約是在486萬我們概算500萬好了是\n\n7\n00:02:14,500 --> 00:02:25,095\n那現在中央加地方大概完成大概九萬戶左右所以我們整個國家目前大概投入四千多億在蓋所謂的社宅這是目前的狀況那我要請教部長或請教署長的問題是說那我們終究\n\n8\n00:02:29,602 --> 00:02:53,734\n目標數到底要蓋多少社宅因為我想包含總統在承諾說要百萬社宅等等但現在很多事又說要包住貸款跟租金補貼那我們先不討論這些事情我們就社宅本身來討論的話內政部有沒有到底設定目標到底我國要多少的社會住宅存量才叫做標準有沒有算過嗎根本報告啦因為我們應該用這個方式比較就是說我們為什麼會淨出這個25萬戶的一個比例\n\n9\n00:02:57,857 --> 00:03:16,854\n那25萬戶其實延長來講它的比重大概最高也只到2.5%那2.5%這樣在這個全世界的社宅的存量裡面我們只能算是比較中低標的一個標準但是我想25萬戶就可能這幾年包含中央跟地方的量能\n\n10\n00:03:17,515 --> 00:03:32,028\n就必須要努力去衝刺這樣的一個目標當然未來我們期待直接興建的部分能夠再繼續拉高署長我們討論一個數字我們看數字到底台灣需要多少社宅剛剛署長你講25萬或25萬或是依據住宅法第四條規範的經濟或社會弱勢吧\n\n11\n00:03:34,370 --> 00:03:45,886\n不是是25萬戶是大概以我們所謂的這個2.5%就是說我們未來如果估計因為現在的小戶化越來越高啦那所以我們估計大概最高台灣可能會到1000萬戶的這個家戶那以1000萬戶的話25萬戶就是一個2.5的一個標準\n\n12\n00:03:52,194 --> 00:04:13,636\n所以是用這樣的概念去算反正雙方的計算標準不一樣結果出來的數字差不多啦就是說你用這個一千萬戶的標準來算是二十五萬戶那如果我是用這個住宅法第四條規範的這個群體算出來的人口數跟戶數算出來也差不多二十五萬戶那我意思是說因為我們社宅它本身條件上它優先要保障的\n\n13\n00:04:14,236 --> 00:04:39,356\n當然就是所謂的經濟或社會弱勢者那如果你真的只蓋25萬戶我就會產生一個嚴重的社會後果就大家會說標線化的問題啦所以我們當然希望不能只有25萬戶當然這在我的理論裡面所以我們才說反推回來如果按照所謂的4成提供給弱勢團體6成提供給當地就業者的比例合理的數字應該是要來到至少60萬戶才能夠符合這個整個國家的這個狀態嘛\n\n14\n00:04:40,757 --> 00:05:02,607\n所以我不知道在這樣子60萬以60萬為目標的情況下有可能內政部有可能達成嗎那如果有可能會預計要幾年來達成應該跟委員報告啦因為直接興建是逐年逐年在補但是其實為什麼我們在對待這些社會弱勢或者是他要靠租金補貼跟包租貸款因為他們相對有時候他的移動性是比較小的\n\n15\n00:05:03,487 --> 00:05:20,293\n所以我不太可能就是說我蓋了一個然後一定要強迫他移過去我想這就是為什麼要包租貸款跟租金補貼那其實包租貸款跟租金補貼弱勢戶的比例也非常高其實也是來自於就是雙方互相搭配來協助他們那我想日後續才會隨著\n\n16\n00:05:21,193 --> 00:05:44,002\n每一階段我們提供的這個社宅的量逐漸逐漸把它填補起來這是我們一定還是要努力的目標好蘇長謝謝你因為我現在這樣這樣後面有問題我都暫時有解答因為是很想知道說到底今年400億的這個住宅基金裡面有300億只有100億拿去蓋那300億去做所謂的住居補貼我覺得這個感覺起來比例有點失衡啦那如果說你們的這個\n\n17\n00:05:45,442 --> 00:06:09,057\n政策立場是希望說這300億資金補貼裡面有很多是所謂的經濟或社會弱勢這樣的說法我想這個本席是能夠接受但是我們期待說如果要還是回到這數字如果今天還要達到這個60萬戶當然這60萬戶當然是要平均分配在很多的可能這個人口密集區也好或者是說交通便利的捷運或這個鐵路的地區也好如果能夠達到60萬戶我想\n\n18\n00:06:10,598 --> 00:06:32,430\n對於現在這個房價和對於真正的居住真正的達成因為我時間到了我就要再講一句因為這個一個月前我剛好去新加坡那大家都知道新加坡的這個租屋政策做得非常非常的好他們多數的國民他們房價當然很高私有住宅的房價很高但是多數的國民他是受到保障就是說我多數國民我買得起或是我住得起一般的房子很多追求豪宅\n\n19\n00:06:32,910 --> 00:06:56,744\n土地國有化的制度這個要討論一下就是說我要跟組長或跟部長來請教就是說當然後續可能再討論啦因為時間到了就是說我們有這麼多其實我們還是有非常多的國有土地或國營事業的國有土地其實是應該是能夠釋出來做相關的工作我們當然期待說我還是以希望以60萬為目標啦我們希望能夠達成這件事情就是土地如果\n\n20\n00:06:57,324 --> 00:07:20,561\n按照目前來講的話,其實不管是財政部也好,或是各國營事也好,其實有非常多的土地是在京華區,我講個,我就舉個例子就好,兩週前,一個月前,我大概有在樓下經濟委會質詢過一件事情,就是我台中市區捷運站旁邊,中青文興路口的邊邊京華地帶的住山住宅區,居然要拿去蓋光電板,我說這就非常浪費啊,\n\n21\n00:07:21,261 --> 00:07:44,642\n這個是很荒謬的事情如果這件事情能夠提供內政部能夠來爭取來提供做社會住宅我想這對區分配或對居住這一點來講就是比較正向的努力也謝謝委員啦這麼漂亮的這麼好的地點你去蓋光電板要蓋其實我們也是都希望地方政府也要努力跟進啦畢竟現在是中央衝的比較快那我們希望地方政府尤其未來有勢力重劃區段徵收區的\n\n22\n00:07:46,023 --> 00:07:56,707\n的這個土地要優先釋出來未來公有地要優先釋出來蓋社會住宅才能真正引入人口解決地方民眾租屋的需求要一起努力好謝謝署長謝謝部長好謝謝黃建和委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7844\t35801\t好謝謝主席主席我們請內政部劉部長劉部長有請部長好部長我是外委的所以時間比較有限但是我還是要跟部長來關心一下我們這個全國社會住宅新辦的進度我想說每年的過去總之我都有關心但是今年總之我時間不夠就沒有問到所以剛好今天內政部有來我也跟部長請教一下去年要024年113年的2月底的\n36181\t53524\t達成數中央4672的地方18257基本上這個數字那過了一年之後到今年中央的社宅完工數是4990那地方是28791我想這個數字很明顯可以看到這個中央在新辦社宅的數字上大概只增加了好大約300戶\n54525\t71294\t那地方政府興建的社宅大概增加一萬戶當然從整個國家的角度來講不分中央地方大家都是為了民眾在蓋這個社宅希望大家能夠達到居住這一年的目標但是我想請教一下部長到底是什麼原因讓這個中央蓋的比例到了進度這麼慢\n73717\t88935\t因為原來在設宅第一期的時候就是希望以地方為主 中央給財務的補貼但是我們從108年大概就觀察到一個地方興建的速度已經放緩了就開工發包的數量已經放緩 而且放緩的速度很快\n89655\t113829\t所以中央才決定自己進場來興建所以我們大致上從109年開始去辦發包那所以如果照正常我們一般大樓大概是4年左右的一個規劃興建4到5年的規劃興建的話那中央的部分大概會在今年開始有比較大幅度的一個完工的數據今年大概會有5700戶左右明年大概還會再增加\n114489\t131058\t大概一萬一千戶所以大概中央會從今年開始大概會每年連續性的這個數量會比較大幅的成長好署長謝謝因為這個按照過去內政部在第一階段新辦這個涉宅的投入的狀況來講當時啦一戶的成本大約是在486萬我們概算500萬好了是\n134500\t145095\t那現在中央加地方大概完成大概九萬戶左右所以我們整個國家目前大概投入四千多億在蓋所謂的社宅這是目前的狀況那我要請教部長或請教署長的問題是說那我們終究\n149602\t173734\t目標數到底要蓋多少社宅因為我想 包含總統在承諾說要百萬社宅等等但現在很多事又說要包住貸款跟租金補貼那我們先不討論這些事情我們就社宅本身來討論的話內政部有沒有到底設定目標到底我國要多少的社會住宅存量才叫做標準 有沒有算過嗎根本報告啦 因為我們應該用這個方式比較就是說我們為什麼會淨出這個25萬戶的一個比例\n177857\t196854\t那25萬戶其實延長來講它的比重大概最高也只到2.5%那2.5%這樣在這個全世界的社宅的存量裡面我們只能算是比較中低標的一個標準但是我想25萬戶就可能這幾年包含中央跟地方的量能\n197515\t212028\t就必須要努力去衝刺這樣的一個目標當然未來我們期待直接興建的部分能夠再繼續拉高署長我們討論一個數字我們看數字到底台灣需要多少社宅剛剛署長你講25萬或25萬或是依據住宅法第四條規範的經濟或社會弱勢吧\n214370\t225886\t不是是25萬戶是大概以我們所謂的這個2.5%就是說我們未來如果估計因為現在的小戶化越來越高啦那所以我們估計大概最高台灣可能會到1000萬戶的這個家戶那以1000萬戶的話25萬戶就是一個2.5的一個標準\n232194\t253636\t所以是用這樣的概念去算反正雙方的計算標準不一樣結果出來的數字差不多啦就是說你用這個一千萬戶的標準來算是二十五萬戶那如果我是用這個住宅法第四條規範的這個群體算出來的人口數跟戶數算出來也差不多二十五萬戶那我意思是說因為我們社宅它本身條件上它優先要保障的\n254236\t279356\t當然就是所謂的經濟或社會弱勢者那如果你真的只蓋25萬戶我就會產生一個嚴重的社會後果就大家會說標線化的問題啦所以我們當然希望不能只有25萬戶當然這在我的理論裡面所以我們才說反推回來如果按照所謂的4成提供給弱勢團體6成提供給當地就業者的比例合理的數字應該是要來到至少60萬戶才能夠符合這個整個國家的這個狀態嘛\n280757\t302607\t所以我不知道在這樣子60萬以60萬為目標的情況下有可能內政部有可能達成嗎那如果有可能會預計要幾年來達成應該跟委員報告啦因為直接興建是逐年逐年在補但是其實為什麼我們在對待這些社會弱勢或者是他要靠租金補貼跟包租貸款因為他們相對有時候他的移動性是比較小的\n303487\t320293\t所以我不太可能就是說我蓋了一個然後一定要強迫他移過去我想這就是為什麼要包租貸款跟租金補貼那其實包租貸款跟租金補貼弱勢戶的比例也非常高其實也是來自於就是雙方互相搭配來協助他們那我想日後續才會隨著\n321193\t344002\t每一階段我們提供的這個社宅的量逐漸逐漸把它填補起來這是我們一定還是要努力的目標好 蘇長謝謝你 因為我現在這樣這樣後面有問題我都暫時有解答因為是很想知道說到底今年400億的這個住宅基金裡面有300億 只有100億拿去蓋那300億去做所謂的住居補貼我覺得這個感覺起來比例有點失衡啦那如果說你們的這個\n345442\t369057\t政策立場是希望說這300億資金補貼裡面有很多是所謂的經濟或社會弱勢這樣的說法我想這個本席是能夠接受但是我們期待說如果要還是回到這數字如果今天還要達到這個60萬戶當然這60萬戶當然是要平均分配在很多的可能這個人口密集區也好或者是說交通便利的捷運或這個鐵路的地區也好如果能夠達到60萬戶我想\n370598\t392430\t對於現在這個房價和對於真正的居住真正的達成因為我時間到了我就要再講一句因為這個一個月前我剛好去新加坡那大家都知道新加坡的這個租屋政策做得非常非常的好他們多數的國民他們房價當然很高私有住宅的房價很高但是多數的國民他是受到保障就是說我多數國民我買得起或是我住得起一般的房子很多追求豪宅\n392910\t416744\t土地國有化的制度這個要討論一下就是說我要跟組長或跟部長來請教就是說當然後續可能再討論啦因為時間到了就是說我們有這麼多其實我們還是有非常多的國有土地或國營事業的國有土地其實是應該是能夠釋出來做相關的工作我們當然期待說我還是以希望以60萬為目標啦我們希望能夠達成這件事情就是土地如果\n417324\t440561\t按照目前來講的話,其實不管是財政部也好,或是各國營事也好,其實有非常多的土地是在京華區,我講個,我就舉個例子就好,兩週前,一個月前,我大概有在樓下經濟委會質詢過一件事情,就是我台中市區捷運站旁邊,中青文興路口的邊邊京華地帶的住山住宅區,居然要拿去蓋光電板,我說這就非常浪費啊,\n441261\t464642\t這個是很荒謬的事情如果這件事情能夠提供內政部能夠來爭取來提供做社會住宅我想這對區分配或對居住這一點來講就是比較正向的努力也謝謝委員啦這麼漂亮的這麼好的地點你去蓋光電板要蓋其實我們也是都希望地方政府也要努力跟進啦畢竟現在是中央衝的比較快那我們希望地方政府尤其未來有勢力重劃區段徵收區的\n466023\t476707\t的這個土地要優先釋出來未來公有地要優先釋出來蓋社會住宅才能真正引入人口解決地方民眾租屋的需求要一起努力好謝謝署長謝謝部長好謝謝黃建和委員\n","txt":"好謝謝主席主席我們請內政部劉部長劉部長有請部長好部長我是外委的所以時間比較有限但是我還是要跟部長來關心一下我們這個全國社會住宅新辦的進度我想說每年的過去總之我都有關心但是今年總之我時間不夠就沒有問到所以剛好今天內政部有來我也跟部長請教一下去年要024年113年的2月底的\n達成數中央4672的地方18257基本上這個數字那過了一年之後到今年中央的社宅完工數是4990那地方是28791我想這個數字很明顯可以看到這個中央在新辦社宅的數字上大概只增加了好大約300戶\n那地方政府興建的社宅大概增加一萬戶當然從整個國家的角度來講不分中央地方大家都是為了民眾在蓋這個社宅希望大家能夠達到居住這一年的目標但是我想請教一下部長到底是什麼原因讓這個中央蓋的比例到了進度這麼慢\n因為原來在設宅第一期的時候就是希望以地方為主 中央給財務的補貼但是我們從108年大概就觀察到一個地方興建的速度已經放緩了就開工發包的數量已經放緩 而且放緩的速度很快\n所以中央才決定自己進場來興建所以我們大致上從109年開始去辦發包那所以如果照正常我們一般大樓大概是4年左右的一個規劃興建4到5年的規劃興建的話那中央的部分大概會在今年開始有比較大幅度的一個完工的數據今年大概會有5700戶左右明年大概還會再增加\n大概一萬一千戶所以大概中央會從今年開始大概會每年連續性的這個數量會比較大幅的成長好署長謝謝因為這個按照過去內政部在第一階段新辦這個涉宅的投入的狀況來講當時啦一戶的成本大約是在486萬我們概算500萬好了是\n那現在中央加地方大概完成大概九萬戶左右所以我們整個國家目前大概投入四千多億在蓋所謂的社宅這是目前的狀況那我要請教部長或請教署長的問題是說那我們終究\n目標數到底要蓋多少社宅因為我想 包含總統在承諾說要百萬社宅等等但現在很多事又說要包住貸款跟租金補貼那我們先不討論這些事情我們就社宅本身來討論的話內政部有沒有到底設定目標到底我國要多少的社會住宅存量才叫做標準 有沒有算過嗎根本報告啦 因為我們應該用這個方式比較就是說我們為什麼會淨出這個25萬戶的一個比例\n那25萬戶其實延長來講它的比重大概最高也只到2.5%那2.5%這樣在這個全世界的社宅的存量裡面我們只能算是比較中低標的一個標準但是我想25萬戶就可能這幾年包含中央跟地方的量能\n就必須要努力去衝刺這樣的一個目標當然未來我們期待直接興建的部分能夠再繼續拉高署長我們討論一個數字我們看數字到底台灣需要多少社宅剛剛署長你講25萬或25萬或是依據住宅法第四條規範的經濟或社會弱勢吧\n不是是25萬戶是大概以我們所謂的這個2.5%就是說我們未來如果估計因為現在的小戶化越來越高啦那所以我們估計大概最高台灣可能會到1000萬戶的這個家戶那以1000萬戶的話25萬戶就是一個2.5的一個標準\n所以是用這樣的概念去算反正雙方的計算標準不一樣結果出來的數字差不多啦就是說你用這個一千萬戶的標準來算是二十五萬戶那如果我是用這個住宅法第四條規範的這個群體算出來的人口數跟戶數算出來也差不多二十五萬戶那我意思是說因為我們社宅它本身條件上它優先要保障的\n當然就是所謂的經濟或社會弱勢者那如果你真的只蓋25萬戶我就會產生一個嚴重的社會後果就大家會說標線化的問題啦所以我們當然希望不能只有25萬戶當然這在我的理論裡面所以我們才說反推回來如果按照所謂的4成提供給弱勢團體6成提供給當地就業者的比例合理的數字應該是要來到至少60萬戶才能夠符合這個整個國家的這個狀態嘛\n所以我不知道在這樣子60萬以60萬為目標的情況下有可能內政部有可能達成嗎那如果有可能會預計要幾年來達成應該跟委員報告啦因為直接興建是逐年逐年在補但是其實為什麼我們在對待這些社會弱勢或者是他要靠租金補貼跟包租貸款因為他們相對有時候他的移動性是比較小的\n所以我不太可能就是說我蓋了一個然後一定要強迫他移過去我想這就是為什麼要包租貸款跟租金補貼那其實包租貸款跟租金補貼弱勢戶的比例也非常高其實也是來自於就是雙方互相搭配來協助他們那我想日後續才會隨著\n每一階段我們提供的這個社宅的量逐漸逐漸把它填補起來這是我們一定還是要努力的目標好 蘇長謝謝你 因為我現在這樣這樣後面有問題我都暫時有解答因為是很想知道說到底今年400億的這個住宅基金裡面有300億 只有100億拿去蓋那300億去做所謂的住居補貼我覺得這個感覺起來比例有點失衡啦那如果說你們的這個\n政策立場是希望說這300億資金補貼裡面有很多是所謂的經濟或社會弱勢這樣的說法我想這個本席是能夠接受但是我們期待說如果要還是回到這數字如果今天還要達到這個60萬戶當然這60萬戶當然是要平均分配在很多的可能這個人口密集區也好或者是說交通便利的捷運或這個鐵路的地區也好如果能夠達到60萬戶我想\n對於現在這個房價和對於真正的居住真正的達成因為我時間到了我就要再講一句因為這個一個月前我剛好去新加坡那大家都知道新加坡的這個租屋政策做得非常非常的好他們多數的國民他們房價當然很高私有住宅的房價很高但是多數的國民他是受到保障就是說我多數國民我買得起或是我住得起一般的房子很多追求豪宅\n土地國有化的制度這個要討論一下就是說我要跟組長或跟部長來請教就是說當然後續可能再討論啦因為時間到了就是說我們有這麼多其實我們還是有非常多的國有土地或國營事業的國有土地其實是應該是能夠釋出來做相關的工作我們當然期待說我還是以希望以60萬為目標啦我們希望能夠達成這件事情就是土地如果\n按照目前來講的話,其實不管是財政部也好,或是各國營事也好,其實有非常多的土地是在京華區,我講個,我就舉個例子就好,兩週前,一個月前,我大概有在樓下經濟委會質詢過一件事情,就是我台中市區捷運站旁邊,中青文興路口的邊邊京華地帶的住山住宅區,居然要拿去蓋光電板,我說這就非常浪費啊,\n這個是很荒謬的事情如果這件事情能夠提供內政部能夠來爭取來提供做社會住宅我想這對區分配或對居住這一點來講就是比較正向的努力也謝謝委員啦這麼漂亮的這麼好的地點你去蓋光電板要蓋其實我們也是都希望地方政府也要努力跟進啦畢竟現在是中央衝的比較快那我們希望地方政府尤其未來有勢力重劃區段徵收區的\n的這個土地要優先釋出來未來公有地要優先釋出來蓋社會住宅才能真正引入人口解決地方民眾租屋的需求要一起努力好謝謝署長謝謝部長好謝謝黃建和委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.844 --> 00:35.801\n好謝謝主席主席我們請內政部劉部長劉部長有請部長好部長我是外委的所以時間比較有限但是我還是要跟部長來關心一下我們這個全國社會住宅新辦的進度我想說每年的過去總之我都有關心但是今年總之我時間不夠就沒有問到所以剛好今天內政部有來我也跟部長請教一下去年要024年113年的2月底的\n\n00:36.181 --> 00:53.524\n達成數中央4672的地方18257基本上這個數字那過了一年之後到今年中央的社宅完工數是4990那地方是28791我想這個數字很明顯可以看到這個中央在新辦社宅的數字上大概只增加了好大約300戶\n\n00:54.525 --> 01:11.294\n那地方政府興建的社宅大概增加一萬戶當然從整個國家的角度來講不分中央地方大家都是為了民眾在蓋這個社宅希望大家能夠達到居住這一年的目標但是我想請教一下部長到底是什麼原因讓這個中央蓋的比例到了進度這麼慢\n\n01:13.717 --> 01:28.935\n因為原來在設宅第一期的時候就是希望以地方為主中央給財務的補貼但是我們從108年大概就觀察到一個地方興建的速度已經放緩了就開工發包的數量已經放緩而且放緩的速度很快\n\n01:29.655 --> 01:53.829\n所以中央才決定自己進場來興建所以我們大致上從109年開始去辦發包那所以如果照正常我們一般大樓大概是4年左右的一個規劃興建4到5年的規劃興建的話那中央的部分大概會在今年開始有比較大幅度的一個完工的數據今年大概會有5700戶左右明年大概還會再增加\n\n01:54.489 --> 02:11.058\n大概一萬一千戶所以大概中央會從今年開始大概會每年連續性的這個數量會比較大幅的成長好署長謝謝因為這個按照過去內政部在第一階段新辦這個涉宅的投入的狀況來講當時啦一戶的成本大約是在486萬我們概算500萬好了是\n\n02:14.500 --> 02:25.095\n那現在中央加地方大概完成大概九萬戶左右所以我們整個國家目前大概投入四千多億在蓋所謂的社宅這是目前的狀況那我要請教部長或請教署長的問題是說那我們終究\n\n02:29.602 --> 02:53.734\n目標數到底要蓋多少社宅因為我想包含總統在承諾說要百萬社宅等等但現在很多事又說要包住貸款跟租金補貼那我們先不討論這些事情我們就社宅本身來討論的話內政部有沒有到底設定目標到底我國要多少的社會住宅存量才叫做標準有沒有算過嗎根本報告啦因為我們應該用這個方式比較就是說我們為什麼會淨出這個25萬戶的一個比例\n\n02:57.857 --> 03:16.854\n那25萬戶其實延長來講它的比重大概最高也只到2.5%那2.5%這樣在這個全世界的社宅的存量裡面我們只能算是比較中低標的一個標準但是我想25萬戶就可能這幾年包含中央跟地方的量能\n\n03:17.515 --> 03:32.028\n就必須要努力去衝刺這樣的一個目標當然未來我們期待直接興建的部分能夠再繼續拉高署長我們討論一個數字我們看數字到底台灣需要多少社宅剛剛署長你講25萬或25萬或是依據住宅法第四條規範的經濟或社會弱勢吧\n\n03:34.370 --> 03:45.886\n不是是25萬戶是大概以我們所謂的這個2.5%就是說我們未來如果估計因為現在的小戶化越來越高啦那所以我們估計大概最高台灣可能會到1000萬戶的這個家戶那以1000萬戶的話25萬戶就是一個2.5的一個標準\n\n03:52.194 --> 04:13.636\n所以是用這樣的概念去算反正雙方的計算標準不一樣結果出來的數字差不多啦就是說你用這個一千萬戶的標準來算是二十五萬戶那如果我是用這個住宅法第四條規範的這個群體算出來的人口數跟戶數算出來也差不多二十五萬戶那我意思是說因為我們社宅它本身條件上它優先要保障的\n\n04:14.236 --> 04:39.356\n當然就是所謂的經濟或社會弱勢者那如果你真的只蓋25萬戶我就會產生一個嚴重的社會後果就大家會說標線化的問題啦所以我們當然希望不能只有25萬戶當然這在我的理論裡面所以我們才說反推回來如果按照所謂的4成提供給弱勢團體6成提供給當地就業者的比例合理的數字應該是要來到至少60萬戶才能夠符合這個整個國家的這個狀態嘛\n\n04:40.757 --> 05:02.607\n所以我不知道在這樣子60萬以60萬為目標的情況下有可能內政部有可能達成嗎那如果有可能會預計要幾年來達成應該跟委員報告啦因為直接興建是逐年逐年在補但是其實為什麼我們在對待這些社會弱勢或者是他要靠租金補貼跟包租貸款因為他們相對有時候他的移動性是比較小的\n\n05:03.487 --> 05:20.293\n所以我不太可能就是說我蓋了一個然後一定要強迫他移過去我想這就是為什麼要包租貸款跟租金補貼那其實包租貸款跟租金補貼弱勢戶的比例也非常高其實也是來自於就是雙方互相搭配來協助他們那我想日後續才會隨著\n\n05:21.193 --> 05:44.002\n每一階段我們提供的這個社宅的量逐漸逐漸把它填補起來這是我們一定還是要努力的目標好蘇長謝謝你因為我現在這樣這樣後面有問題我都暫時有解答因為是很想知道說到底今年400億的這個住宅基金裡面有300億只有100億拿去蓋那300億去做所謂的住居補貼我覺得這個感覺起來比例有點失衡啦那如果說你們的這個\n\n05:45.442 --> 06:09.057\n政策立場是希望說這300億資金補貼裡面有很多是所謂的經濟或社會弱勢這樣的說法我想這個本席是能夠接受但是我們期待說如果要還是回到這數字如果今天還要達到這個60萬戶當然這60萬戶當然是要平均分配在很多的可能這個人口密集區也好或者是說交通便利的捷運或這個鐵路的地區也好如果能夠達到60萬戶我想\n\n06:10.598 --> 06:32.430\n對於現在這個房價和對於真正的居住真正的達成因為我時間到了我就要再講一句因為這個一個月前我剛好去新加坡那大家都知道新加坡的這個租屋政策做得非常非常的好他們多數的國民他們房價當然很高私有住宅的房價很高但是多數的國民他是受到保障就是說我多數國民我買得起或是我住得起一般的房子很多追求豪宅\n\n06:32.910 --> 06:56.744\n土地國有化的制度這個要討論一下就是說我要跟組長或跟部長來請教就是說當然後續可能再討論啦因為時間到了就是說我們有這麼多其實我們還是有非常多的國有土地或國營事業的國有土地其實是應該是能夠釋出來做相關的工作我們當然期待說我還是以希望以60萬為目標啦我們希望能夠達成這件事情就是土地如果\n\n06:57.324 --> 07:20.561\n按照目前來講的話,其實不管是財政部也好,或是各國營事也好,其實有非常多的土地是在京華區,我講個,我就舉個例子就好,兩週前,一個月前,我大概有在樓下經濟委會質詢過一件事情,就是我台中市區捷運站旁邊,中青文興路口的邊邊京華地帶的住山住宅區,居然要拿去蓋光電板,我說這就非常浪費啊,\n\n07:21.261 --> 07:44.642\n這個是很荒謬的事情如果這件事情能夠提供內政部能夠來爭取來提供做社會住宅我想這對區分配或對居住這一點來講就是比較正向的努力也謝謝委員啦這麼漂亮的這麼好的地點你去蓋光電板要蓋其實我們也是都希望地方政府也要努力跟進啦畢竟現在是中央衝的比較快那我們希望地方政府尤其未來有勢力重劃區段徵收區的\n\n07:46.023 --> 07:56.707\n的這個土地要優先釋出來未來公有地要優先釋出來蓋社會住宅才能真正引入人口解決地方民眾租屋的需求要一起努力好謝謝署長謝謝部長好謝謝黃建和委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.844,"end":35.801,"text":"好謝謝主席主席我們請內政部劉部長劉部長有請部長好部長我是外委的所以時間比較有限但是我還是要跟部長來關心一下我們這個全國社會住宅新辦的進度我想說每年的過去總之我都有關心但是今年總之我時間不夠就沒有問到所以剛好今天內政部有來我也跟部長請教一下去年要024年113年的2月底的"},{"start":36.181,"end":53.524,"text":"達成數中央4672的地方18257基本上這個數字那過了一年之後到今年中央的社宅完工數是4990那地方是28791我想這個數字很明顯可以看到這個中央在新辦社宅的數字上大概只增加了好大約300戶"},{"start":54.525,"end":71.294,"text":"那地方政府興建的社宅大概增加一萬戶當然從整個國家的角度來講不分中央地方大家都是為了民眾在蓋這個社宅希望大家能夠達到居住這一年的目標但是我想請教一下部長到底是什麼原因讓這個中央蓋的比例到了進度這麼慢"},{"start":73.717,"end":88.935,"text":"因為原來在設宅第一期的時候就是希望以地方為主 中央給財務的補貼但是我們從108年大概就觀察到一個地方興建的速度已經放緩了就開工發包的數量已經放緩 而且放緩的速度很快"},{"start":89.655,"end":113.829,"text":"所以中央才決定自己進場來興建所以我們大致上從109年開始去辦發包那所以如果照正常我們一般大樓大概是4年左右的一個規劃興建4到5年的規劃興建的話那中央的部分大概會在今年開始有比較大幅度的一個完工的數據今年大概會有5700戶左右明年大概還會再增加"},{"start":114.489,"end":131.058,"text":"大概一萬一千戶所以大概中央會從今年開始大概會每年連續性的這個數量會比較大幅的成長好署長謝謝因為這個按照過去內政部在第一階段新辦這個涉宅的投入的狀況來講當時啦一戶的成本大約是在486萬我們概算500萬好了是"},{"start":134.5,"end":145.095,"text":"那現在中央加地方大概完成大概九萬戶左右所以我們整個國家目前大概投入四千多億在蓋所謂的社宅這是目前的狀況那我要請教部長或請教署長的問題是說那我們終究"},{"start":149.602,"end":173.734,"text":"目標數到底要蓋多少社宅因為我想 包含總統在承諾說要百萬社宅等等但現在很多事又說要包住貸款跟租金補貼那我們先不討論這些事情我們就社宅本身來討論的話內政部有沒有到底設定目標到底我國要多少的社會住宅存量才叫做標準 有沒有算過嗎根本報告啦 因為我們應該用這個方式比較就是說我們為什麼會淨出這個25萬戶的一個比例"},{"start":177.857,"end":196.854,"text":"那25萬戶其實延長來講它的比重大概最高也只到2.5%那2.5%這樣在這個全世界的社宅的存量裡面我們只能算是比較中低標的一個標準但是我想25萬戶就可能這幾年包含中央跟地方的量能"},{"start":197.515,"end":212.028,"text":"就必須要努力去衝刺這樣的一個目標當然未來我們期待直接興建的部分能夠再繼續拉高署長我們討論一個數字我們看數字到底台灣需要多少社宅剛剛署長你講25萬或25萬或是依據住宅法第四條規範的經濟或社會弱勢吧"},{"start":214.37,"end":225.886,"text":"不是是25萬戶是大概以我們所謂的這個2.5%就是說我們未來如果估計因為現在的小戶化越來越高啦那所以我們估計大概最高台灣可能會到1000萬戶的這個家戶那以1000萬戶的話25萬戶就是一個2.5的一個標準"},{"start":232.194,"end":253.636,"text":"所以是用這樣的概念去算反正雙方的計算標準不一樣結果出來的數字差不多啦就是說你用這個一千萬戶的標準來算是二十五萬戶那如果我是用這個住宅法第四條規範的這個群體算出來的人口數跟戶數算出來也差不多二十五萬戶那我意思是說因為我們社宅它本身條件上它優先要保障的"},{"start":254.236,"end":279.356,"text":"當然就是所謂的經濟或社會弱勢者那如果你真的只蓋25萬戶我就會產生一個嚴重的社會後果就大家會說標線化的問題啦所以我們當然希望不能只有25萬戶當然這在我的理論裡面所以我們才說反推回來如果按照所謂的4成提供給弱勢團體6成提供給當地就業者的比例合理的數字應該是要來到至少60萬戶才能夠符合這個整個國家的這個狀態嘛"},{"start":280.757,"end":302.607,"text":"所以我不知道在這樣子60萬以60萬為目標的情況下有可能內政部有可能達成嗎那如果有可能會預計要幾年來達成應該跟委員報告啦因為直接興建是逐年逐年在補但是其實為什麼我們在對待這些社會弱勢或者是他要靠租金補貼跟包租貸款因為他們相對有時候他的移動性是比較小的"},{"start":303.487,"end":320.293,"text":"所以我不太可能就是說我蓋了一個然後一定要強迫他移過去我想這就是為什麼要包租貸款跟租金補貼那其實包租貸款跟租金補貼弱勢戶的比例也非常高其實也是來自於就是雙方互相搭配來協助他們那我想日後續才會隨著"},{"start":321.193,"end":344.002,"text":"每一階段我們提供的這個社宅的量逐漸逐漸把它填補起來這是我們一定還是要努力的目標好 蘇長謝謝你 因為我現在這樣這樣後面有問題我都暫時有解答因為是很想知道說到底今年400億的這個住宅基金裡面有300億 只有100億拿去蓋那300億去做所謂的住居補貼我覺得這個感覺起來比例有點失衡啦那如果說你們的這個"},{"start":345.442,"end":369.057,"text":"政策立場是希望說這300億資金補貼裡面有很多是所謂的經濟或社會弱勢這樣的說法我想這個本席是能夠接受但是我們期待說如果要還是回到這數字如果今天還要達到這個60萬戶當然這60萬戶當然是要平均分配在很多的可能這個人口密集區也好或者是說交通便利的捷運或這個鐵路的地區也好如果能夠達到60萬戶我想"},{"start":370.598,"end":392.43,"text":"對於現在這個房價和對於真正的居住真正的達成因為我時間到了我就要再講一句因為這個一個月前我剛好去新加坡那大家都知道新加坡的這個租屋政策做得非常非常的好他們多數的國民他們房價當然很高私有住宅的房價很高但是多數的國民他是受到保障就是說我多數國民我買得起或是我住得起一般的房子很多追求豪宅"},{"start":392.91,"end":416.744,"text":"土地國有化的制度這個要討論一下就是說我要跟組長或跟部長來請教就是說當然後續可能再討論啦因為時間到了就是說我們有這麼多其實我們還是有非常多的國有土地或國營事業的國有土地其實是應該是能夠釋出來做相關的工作我們當然期待說我還是以希望以60萬為目標啦我們希望能夠達成這件事情就是土地如果"},{"start":417.324,"end":440.561,"text":"按照目前來講的話,其實不管是財政部也好,或是各國營事也好,其實有非常多的土地是在京華區,我講個,我就舉個例子就好,兩週前,一個月前,我大概有在樓下經濟委會質詢過一件事情,就是我台中市區捷運站旁邊,中青文興路口的邊邊京華地帶的住山住宅區,居然要拿去蓋光電板,我說這就非常浪費啊,"},{"start":441.261,"end":464.642,"text":"這個是很荒謬的事情如果這件事情能夠提供內政部能夠來爭取來提供做社會住宅我想這對區分配或對居住這一點來講就是比較正向的努力也謝謝委員啦這麼漂亮的這麼好的地點你去蓋光電板要蓋其實我們也是都希望地方政府也要努力跟進啦畢竟現在是中央衝的比較快那我們希望地方政府尤其未來有勢力重劃區段徵收區的"},{"start":466.023,"end":476.707,"text":"的這個土地要優先釋出來未來公有地要優先釋出來蓋社會住宅才能真正引入人口解決地方民眾租屋的需求要一起努力好謝謝署長謝謝部長好謝謝黃建和委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":953,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（12時6分）謝謝主席。主席，我們請內政部劉部長。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長好。部長，我是外委的，所以時間比較有限，但我還是要跟部長關心一下全國社會住宅興辦的進度，過去的總質詢我都有關心，但是今年總質詢我時間不夠就沒有問到，所以剛好今天內政部有來，我也跟部長請教一下。關於去年（2024年、113年）2月底的達成數，中央4,672、地方1萬8,257，基本上是這個數字；過了一年之後，到了今年，中央的社宅完工數是4,990、地方是2萬8,791，這個數字很明顯可以看到中央在興辦社宅的數字上只增加了大約300戶，地方政府興建的社宅大概增加1萬戶。當然從整個國家的角度來講，不分中央、地方大家都是為了民眾來蓋社宅，希望大家能夠達到居住正義的目標，但是我想請教一下部長，到底是什麼原因讓中央蓋的比例、進度這麼慢？"],["劉部長世芳：可不可以請署長回答？"],["黃委員健豪：可以，沒關係。"],["吳署長欣修：謝謝委員，原來在社宅第一期的時候就是希望以地方為主，中央給財務的補貼，但是我們從108年大概就觀察到地方興建的速度已經放緩了，就是開工、發包的數量已經放緩，而且放緩的速度很快。所以中央才決定自己進場來興建，所以我們大致上從109年開始去辦發包，如果照正常一般大樓大概是4到5年規劃、興建的話，中央的部分大概會在今年開始有比較大幅度的完工數據，今年大概會有5,700戶左右，明年大概還會再增加1萬1,000戶，所以從今年開始中央的數量每年會有比較連續性的大幅成長。"],["黃委員健豪：好，署長謝謝，按照過去內政部在第一階段興辦社宅的投入狀況來講，當時一戶的成本大約是486萬，我們概算500萬好了，現在中央加地方大概完成9萬戶左右，所以我們整個國家目前投入大概四千多億在蓋所謂的社宅，這是目前的狀況。我要請教部長或署長的問題是，我們終究目標數到底要蓋多少社宅？包含總統承諾說要百萬社宅等等，但現在很多是用所謂的包租代管跟租金補貼，那我們先不討論這件事情，我們就社宅本身來討論的話，內政部到底有沒有設定目標，我國要多少的社會住宅存量才叫做標準，你們有算過嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，我們應該用這個方式比較，我們為什麼會計算出25萬戶的比例？25萬戶嚴格來講，它的比重最高也只到2.5%，2.5%在全世界的社宅存量裡面，我們只能算是比較中低標的標準，但是我想25萬戶可能這幾年包含中央跟地方的量能就必須努力去衝刺這樣的一個目標，當然，未來我們期待直接興建的部分能夠再繼續拉高。"],["黃委員健豪：署長，我們來討論一個數字，我們看數字，到底臺灣需要多少社宅？剛剛署長講25萬戶，25萬戶是依據住宅法第四條規範的經濟或社會弱勢吧？"],["吳署長欣修：不是，25萬戶大概是以我們所謂的2.5%，就是我們估計未來的情況，因為現在的小戶化越來越高，所以我們估計臺灣最高可能會到1,000萬戶的家戶，那以1,000萬戶的話，25萬戶就是2.5%的標準，所以是用這樣的概念去算。"],["黃委員健豪：署長，誤打誤撞，反正雙方的計算標準不一樣，結果出來的數字差不多，你用1,000萬戶的標準來算是25萬戶，我用住宅法第四條規範的這個群體的人口數及戶數算出來也差不多25萬戶。我的意思是，我們社宅本身條件上優先要保障的當然就是所謂的經濟或社會弱勢者，如果你真的只蓋25萬戶，我覺得會產生一個嚴重的社會後果，就是大家會說標籤化的問題，所以我們當然希望不能只有25萬戶！當然這是在我的理論裡面，所以我才說反推回來，如果按照所謂的四成提供給弱勢團體、六成提供給當地就學及就業者的比例，合理的數字應該要來到至少60萬戶才能夠符合整個國家的狀態。在這樣以60萬戶為目標的情況下，內政部有可能達成嗎？如果有可能，預計要幾年來達成？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，直接興建是逐年、逐年在補，為什麼我們對待這些社會弱勢要靠租金補貼跟包租代管？因為相對來說他的移動性比較小，所以不太可能我蓋了一個然後一定要強迫他移過去，我想這就是為什麼要有包租代管跟租金補貼。其實包租代管跟租金補貼弱勢戶的比例也非常高，也是來自於雙方互相搭配來協助他們，後續才會隨著每一階段我們提供的社宅數量逐漸把它填補起來，這是我們一定還要努力的目標。"],["黃委員健豪：好，署長謝謝你，因為後面我的問題就算是有解答，我一直很想知道，為何今年400億的住宅基金裡面只有100億拿去蓋、300億去做所謂的租金補貼，我覺得這個比例感覺有點失衡，如果你們的政策立場是希望這300億租金補貼裡面有很多是所謂的經濟或社會弱勢，這樣的說法本席能夠接受。但我們還是期待……還是回到這個數字，如果今天要達到這個60萬戶，當然這60萬戶要平均分配在很多的人口密集區或者是交通便利的捷運、鐵路地區，如果能夠達到60萬戶，我想對於現在的房價或者真正的居住正義才能達成。","我時間到了，我最後再講一句，一個月前我剛好去新加坡，大家都知道新加坡的組屋政策做得非常、非常好，他們的房價當然很高、私有住宅的房價很高，但是多數的國民受到保障，就是多數國民買得起或是住得起一般的房子，不追求豪宅……"],["吳署長欣修：不過那是他們土地國有化的制度，他們是得利於土地國有化的制度才有辦法。"],["黃委員健豪：關於這個要討論一下，我要跟組長或部長請教的就是，當然後續可能再討論，因為時間到了。其實我們還是有非常多的國有土地或國營事業的國有土地應該能夠釋出來做相關的工作，我還是希望以60萬戶為目標，我們希望能夠達成這件事，土地按照目前來講的話，不管是財政部或是各國營事業，其實有非常多的土地是在精華區。我舉個例子，大概一個月前我有在樓下經濟委員會質詢過一件事情，我們臺中市區的捷運站旁邊、中清文心路口旁的精華地帶、住三住宅區居然要拿去蓋光電板，這就非常浪費、這是很荒謬的事情，如果這個地方內政部能夠爭取來提供做為社會住宅，我想這對區域分配或居住正義就是比較正向的努力。"],["吳署長欣修：也謝謝委員。"],["黃委員健豪：不要讓這麼漂亮、這麼好的地點去蓋光電板，這超荒謬的！"],["吳署長欣修：其實我們也都希望地方政府要努力跟進，畢竟現在是中央衝得比較快，我們希望地方政府未來有市地重劃、區段徵收區的土地要優先釋出來，未來的公有地要優先釋出來蓋社會住宅才能真正引入人口、解決地方民眾租屋的需求，這要一起努力，謝謝。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝署長、謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員。下一位我們請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-5","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","張啓楷","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","黃健豪","黃珊珊","鍾佳濱","郭國文","高金素梅"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、行政院消費者保護處處長、財政部就「租賃住宅市場透明化之現況及展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00002"}}}