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\"像委員在做的那個報告就是說司法院那個版本呢這樣子的出發意旨是為了讓就是被告或是犯罪嫌疑人他的權利更完善那如果說是在第一線的那個執法同仁他們覺得說是就是這樣子會造成他們困擾的話這個部分司法院其實並沒有堅持就是說採那個法務部或者是那個內政部警政署他們建議這我們都可以的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 449.423, \"end\": 449.583, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 449.583, \"end\": 449.883, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 449.883, \"end\": 450.084, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 450.084, \"end\": 450.244, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 450.244, \"end\": 450.324, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 450.324, \"end\": 450.744, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 450.744, \"end\": 451.164, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 451.164, \"end\": 451.304, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 451.304, \"end\": 452.065, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 452.065, \"end\": 452.205, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"法\", 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\"OK,那這個就進入主條的時候,你們再弄一個,你總不可以說聽的人,叫實際執行的人就在這個文字上在那邊糾結,其實也沒什麼意義啦那最後建議啊,這個以後你們來這裡備詢啊,有人再問個案你不要理他\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"O\", \"start\": 478.12, \"end\": 478.22, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"K\", \"start\": 478.22, \"end\": 478.36, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 478.36, \"end\": 478.681, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 478.681, \"end\": 479.021, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"入\", \"start\": 479.021, \"end\": 479.462, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 479.462, \"end\": 479.822, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 479.822, \"end\": 480.143, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 480.143, \"end\": 480.423, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 480.423, \"end\": 480.723, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 480.723, \"end\": 480.904, \"score\": 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\"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 492.138, \"end\": 493.9, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 493.9, \"end\": 494.02, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 494.02, \"end\": 494.24, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 494.24, \"end\": 494.801, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 494.801, \"end\": 494.961, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 494.961, \"end\": 495.101, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 495.101, \"end\": 495.181, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 495.181, \"end\": 495.342, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 495.342, \"end\": 495.502, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 495.502, \"end\": 495.522, \"score\": 0.453}]}, {\"start\": 497.557, \"end\": 521.517, \"text\": \"你們怎麼看這裡談個案呢 談到那麼細 談到個別的人 個別的法官 個別的什麼談個案不應該是立法院該處理的 這個到時候你就回答他 個案 委員個案我們不便回答好不好 沒得陷入到那個個案裡頭個案有時候是 講到這裡就好了 謝謝謝謝王委員\", \"words\": [{\"word\": 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\"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 521.417, \"end\": 521.497, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 521.497, \"end\": 521.517, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:12,637 --> 00:00:21,466\n請法務部跟警政署的代表好麻煩次長委員好\n\n2\n00:00:24,758 --> 00:00:51,881\n今天這個刑法的修正案我想請問一下過去在採取這種尿液的檢查的時候實務上有沒有未經對方同意或沒有任何的文件就讓這個當事人就說你現在去給我採尿液然後我懷疑你吸毒我現在叫你去採尿液有沒有發生過這種事\n\n3\n00:00:54,116 --> 00:01:23,304\n是不是那請問一下委員是指逮捕居體的嗎不是就是說比如說毒駕酒駕之類的不會一般來講都有其他的事證譬如說在車上有扣到毒品或者是他行車是有不正常的軌跡那他如果發現他有毒品對不對然後呢你就覺得他吸毒是那你叫他採尿液\n\n4\n00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:50,331\n那他不採呢不採在法律上規定是可以報請檢察官做侵入性的採驗那非侵入性是什麼意思當時就是食物上的非侵入性是什麼概念對就是讓他喝水然後排尿那他如果都不喝呢都不喝到後來我們就報請檢察官回到205之一採鑑定許可書\n\n5\n00:01:52,745 --> 00:02:00,243\n那報請檢察官要時間嘛對不對那我們現在修這個法是因為有些時間緊迫嘛對不對你們認為要\n\n6\n00:02:03,414 --> 00:02:30,954\n趕快採嘛對不對修這個法是因為我們憲判16號認為說這個部分還是要有這個令狀所以有令狀所以才205-2205-3才說這個部分有關非侵入性的也是需要經過檢察官的許可所以才增訂了205-2然後-3變成說那個這個處分書的格式許可書的格式裡面是怎麼樣的對但是現在又認為說這個\n\n7\n00:02:33,115 --> 00:03:00,086\n如果有這個認定,認定我要馬上裁,後來才報檢察官嘛,對不對?那這個認定是給警方或者這個相關的司法警察有很大的裁揚權,是不是?包委,那個是對於,我們現在是這樣子齁我們205-1-2-3是針對具體跟逮捕的,我們範圍已經限縮了那像街頭上的盤查那個部分,那是一定要回歸到強制處分\n\n8\n00:03:00,626 --> 00:03:21,756\n那我們是已經經過譬如說現場已經有毒品了那我已經經過居體或逮捕那這個限縮這個範圍的對象是已經經過居體跟逮捕那居體跟逮捕在過去裡面他如果不想採尿我們可能就是給他喝水那給他喝水以後所以才會延伸到111年的憲判16號然後憲判16號下來以後事實上憲判16號下來以後\n\n9\n00:03:24,810 --> 00:03:39,973\n我們在整個警政署他整個採尿的一些程序就已經回歸到依照憲判這個16號的相關規定訂定一個SOP那我們現在只是把它法制化那如果這一個當事人他不服\n\n10\n00:03:40,615 --> 00:04:05,547\n現在的這個規定是新的規定是說他可以救濟嘛那救濟的話如果檢察官撤銷撤銷是就是採的這個相關的這個市政就不用了是不是是這個意思是不是是是不具證據能力那如果說這個不具證據能力那資檢採的就算啦就是就把它銷毀掉啦那當事人也沒有辦法說你當時為什麼給我採\n\n11\n00:04:07,950 --> 00:04:28,983\n是所以因為這個範圍已經很限縮到具體逮捕這個範圍已經非常小具體逮捕那我們現在規範的是非侵入性的只要是侵入性的可能就要回到205-1的鑑定許可書可能請專業的醫生採尿導尿或者是採血液等等這些那現在就是205-2-3現在最主要在規範這些\n\n12\n00:04:31,707 --> 00:04:57,944\n那205之三司法院,再請司法院的同仁205之三司法院的版本跟行政院的版本我如果從字面上看起來是有一個司法院的版本是送交執行機關及受採取人然後行政院的版本是要出示許可書\n\n13\n00:04:59,954 --> 00:05:23,653\n這兩個的文字上,你們雙方有什麼樣的爭執?像委員報告,之所以司法院版本是規定送交這是因為採刑事訴訟法類似規定的相同法例像34條之一,限制辯護人跟其他被告接見通信的限制書還有103條\n\n14\n00:05:26,135 --> 00:05:52,736\n就是羈押那個押票那還有203條之二這個執行鑑定留置的這個鑑定留置書都是採相同的法例要那個送交那這個也有一個作用就是說那個送交之後呢這個被告或者是犯罪嫌疑人呢他可以依據這個從這個時間點很清楚的就是說提出救濟\n\n15\n00:05:53,663 --> 00:06:08,154\n就說你送交給他的那一個時間點開始對不對是是是嗎是那你們雙方的文字啊這個行政院的版本叫做初試對不對\n\n16\n00:06:10,310 --> 00:06:26,065\n出示這個許可書嗎報告委員我想我想比較我們行政院版跟司法院版的不一樣的地方在於說他們使用送交給執行機關跟受裁員人\n\n17\n00:06:27,506 --> 00:06:47,820\n那這一個動作的話在前面一條就是侵入性的205-1請鑑定人採尿的我們只是希望我們只是出示就是這一個許可書加上出示證件就可以完成了程序同樣的是採尿結果現在新的法律規定205-2卻是要送達\n\n18\n00:06:50,902 --> 00:07:12,088\n送交送交給執行機關以及受採人變成跟前面的強制是不一樣的程序我們第一線執行的警察一定會搞混到底是要送交不送交其實送交跟救濟沒有關係因為只要強制準備做了以後10天就是他的救濟期間不需要跟205之一有不同的規定\n\n19\n00:07:12,768 --> 00:07:28,462\n我想這是比較接近就是只要出示我們給他許可書然後出示證件這個就可以達到他這個救濟的起點的起算我想就不用再規定這個送交這兩個字那司法員你們雙方的這個就這些文字上的差別\n\n20\n00:07:29,423 --> 00:07:57,404\n像委員在做的那個報告就是說司法院那個版本呢這樣子的出發意旨是為了讓就是被告或是犯罪嫌疑人他的權利更完善那如果說是在第一線的那個執法同仁他們覺得說是就是這樣子會造成他們困擾的話這個部分司法院其實並沒有堅持就是說採那個法務部或者是那個內政部警政署他們建議這我們都可以的\n\n21\n00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:15,522\nOK,那這個就進入主條的時候,你們再弄一個,你總不可以說聽的人,叫實際執行的人就在這個文字上在那邊糾結,其實也沒什麼意義啦那最後建議啊,這個以後你們來這裡備詢啊,有人再問個案你不要理他\n\n22\n00:08:17,557 --> 00:08:41,517\n你們怎麼看這裡談個案呢談到那麼細談到個別的人個別的法官個別的什麼談個案不應該是立法院該處理的這個到時候你就回答他個案委員個案我們不便回答好不好沒得陷入到那個個案裡頭個案有時候是講到這裡就好了謝謝謝謝王委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n12637\t21466\t請法務部跟警政署的代表好麻煩次長委員好\n24758\t51881\t今天這個刑法的修正案我想請問一下過去在採取這種尿液的檢查的時候實務上有沒有未經對方同意或沒有任何的文件就讓這個當事人就說你現在去給我採尿液然後我懷疑你吸毒我現在叫你去採尿液有沒有發生過這種事\n54116\t83304\t是不是那請問一下委員是指逮捕居體的嗎不是 就是說比如說毒駕酒駕之類的不會一般來講都有其他的事證譬如說在車上有扣到毒品或者是他行車是有不正常的軌跡那他如果發現他有毒品對不對然後呢你就覺得他吸毒是那你叫他採尿液\n83800\t110331\t那他不採呢不採在法律上規定是可以報請檢察官做侵入性的採驗那非侵入性是什麼意思當時就是食物上的非侵入性是什麼概念對就是讓他喝水然後排尿那他如果都不喝呢都不喝到後來我們就報請檢察官回到205之一採鑑定許可書\n112745\t120243\t那報請檢察官要時間嘛 對不對那我們現在修這個法是因為有些時間緊迫嘛 對不對你們認為要\n123414\t150954\t趕快採嘛 對不對修這個法是因為我們憲判16號認為說這個部分還是要有這個令狀所以有令狀所以才205-2 205-3才說這個部分有關非侵入性的也是需要經過檢察官的許可所以才增訂了205-2然後-3變成說那個這個處分書的格式許可書的格式裡面是怎麼樣的對 但是現在又認為說這個\n153115\t180086\t如果有這個認定,認定我要馬上裁,後來才報檢察官嘛,對不對?那這個認定是給警方或者這個相關的司法警察有很大的裁揚權,是不是?包委,那個是對於,我們現在是這樣子齁我們205-1-2-3是針對具體跟逮捕的,我們範圍已經限縮了那像街頭上的盤查那個部分,那是一定要回歸到強制處分\n180626\t201756\t那我們是已經經過 譬如說現場已經有毒品了 那我已經經過居體或逮捕那這個限縮這個範圍的對象是已經經過居體跟逮捕那居體跟逮捕在過去裡面 他如果不想採尿 我們可能就是給他喝水那給他喝水以後 所以才會延伸到111年的憲判16號然後憲判16號下來以後 事實上憲判16號下來以後\n204810\t219973\t我們在整個警政署他整個採尿的一些程序就已經回歸到依照憲判這個16號的相關規定訂定一個SOP那我們現在只是把它法制化那如果這一個當事人他不服\n220615\t245547\t現在的這個規定是 新的規定是說他可以救濟嘛那救濟的話如果檢察官撤銷 撤銷是就是採的這個相關的這個市政就不用了是不是是這個意思是不是是是 不具證據能力那如果說這個不具證據能力 那資檢採的就算啦就是就把它銷毀掉啦那當事人也沒有辦法說你當時為什麼給我採\n247950\t268983\t是 所以因為這個範圍已經很限縮到具體逮捕這個範圍已經非常小 具體逮捕那我們現在規範的是非侵入性的只要是侵入性的 可能就要回到205-1的鑑定許可書可能請專業的醫生採尿 導尿 或者是採血液等等這些那現在就是205-2-3 現在最主要在規範這些\n271707\t297944\t那205之三司法院,再請司法院的同仁205之三司法院的版本跟行政院的版本我如果從字面上看起來是有一個司法院的版本是送交執行機關及受採取人然後行政院的版本是要出示許可書\n299954\t323653\t這兩個的文字上,你們雙方有什麼樣的爭執?像委員報告,之所以司法院版本是規定送交這是因為採刑事訴訟法類似規定的相同法例像34條之一,限制辯護人跟其他被告接見通信的限制書還有103條\n326135\t352736\t就是羈押那個押票那還有203條之二這個執行鑑定留置的這個鑑定留置書都是採相同的法例要那個送交那這個也有一個作用就是說那個送交之後呢這個被告或者是犯罪嫌疑人呢他可以依據這個從這個時間點很清楚的就是說提出救濟\n353663\t368154\t就說你送交給他的那一個時間點開始對不對是是是嗎是那你們雙方的文字啊這個行政院的版本叫做初試對不對\n370310\t386065\t出示這個許可書嗎報告委員我想我想比較我們行政院版跟司法院版的不一樣的地方在於說他們使用送交給執行機關跟受裁員人\n387506\t407820\t那這一個動作的話在前面一條就是侵入性的205-1請鑑定人採尿的我們只是希望我們只是出示就是這一個許可書加上出示證件就可以完成了程序同樣的是採尿結果現在新的法律規定205-2卻是要送達\n410902\t432088\t送交送交給執行機關以及受採人變成跟前面的強制是不一樣的程序我們第一線執行的警察一定會搞混到底是要送交不送交其實送交跟救濟沒有關係因為只要強制準備做了以後10天就是他的救濟期間不需要跟205之一有不同的規定\n432768\t448462\t我想這是比較接近就是只要出示我們給他許可書然後出示證件這個就可以達到他這個救濟的起點的起算我想就不用再規定這個送交這兩個字那司法員你們雙方的這個就這些文字上的差別\n449423\t477404\t像委員在做的那個報告就是說司法院那個版本呢這樣子的出發意旨是為了讓就是被告或是犯罪嫌疑人他的權利更完善那如果說是在第一線的那個執法同仁他們覺得說是就是這樣子會造成他們困擾的話這個部分司法院其實並沒有堅持就是說採那個法務部或者是那個內政部警政署他們建議這我們都可以的\n478120\t495522\tOK,那這個就進入主條的時候,你們再弄一個,你總不可以說聽的人,叫實際執行的人就在這個文字上在那邊糾結,其實也沒什麼意義啦那最後建議啊,這個以後你們來這裡備詢啊,有人再問個案你不要理他\n497557\t521517\t你們怎麼看這裡談個案呢 談到那麼細 談到個別的人 個別的法官 個別的什麼談個案不應該是立法院該處理的 這個到時候你就回答他 個案 委員個案我們不便回答好不好 沒得陷入到那個個案裡頭個案有時候是 講到這裡就好了 謝謝謝謝王委員\n","txt":"請法務部跟警政署的代表好麻煩次長委員好\n今天這個刑法的修正案我想請問一下過去在採取這種尿液的檢查的時候實務上有沒有未經對方同意或沒有任何的文件就讓這個當事人就說你現在去給我採尿液然後我懷疑你吸毒我現在叫你去採尿液有沒有發生過這種事\n是不是那請問一下委員是指逮捕居體的嗎不是 就是說比如說毒駕酒駕之類的不會一般來講都有其他的事證譬如說在車上有扣到毒品或者是他行車是有不正常的軌跡那他如果發現他有毒品對不對然後呢你就覺得他吸毒是那你叫他採尿液\n那他不採呢不採在法律上規定是可以報請檢察官做侵入性的採驗那非侵入性是什麼意思當時就是食物上的非侵入性是什麼概念對就是讓他喝水然後排尿那他如果都不喝呢都不喝到後來我們就報請檢察官回到205之一採鑑定許可書\n那報請檢察官要時間嘛 對不對那我們現在修這個法是因為有些時間緊迫嘛 對不對你們認為要\n趕快採嘛 對不對修這個法是因為我們憲判16號認為說這個部分還是要有這個令狀所以有令狀所以才205-2 205-3才說這個部分有關非侵入性的也是需要經過檢察官的許可所以才增訂了205-2然後-3變成說那個這個處分書的格式許可書的格式裡面是怎麼樣的對 但是現在又認為說這個\n如果有這個認定,認定我要馬上裁,後來才報檢察官嘛,對不對?那這個認定是給警方或者這個相關的司法警察有很大的裁揚權,是不是?包委,那個是對於,我們現在是這樣子齁我們205-1-2-3是針對具體跟逮捕的,我們範圍已經限縮了那像街頭上的盤查那個部分,那是一定要回歸到強制處分\n那我們是已經經過 譬如說現場已經有毒品了 那我已經經過居體或逮捕那這個限縮這個範圍的對象是已經經過居體跟逮捕那居體跟逮捕在過去裡面 他如果不想採尿 我們可能就是給他喝水那給他喝水以後 所以才會延伸到111年的憲判16號然後憲判16號下來以後 事實上憲判16號下來以後\n我們在整個警政署他整個採尿的一些程序就已經回歸到依照憲判這個16號的相關規定訂定一個SOP那我們現在只是把它法制化那如果這一個當事人他不服\n現在的這個規定是 新的規定是說他可以救濟嘛那救濟的話如果檢察官撤銷 撤銷是就是採的這個相關的這個市政就不用了是不是是這個意思是不是是是 不具證據能力那如果說這個不具證據能力 那資檢採的就算啦就是就把它銷毀掉啦那當事人也沒有辦法說你當時為什麼給我採\n是 所以因為這個範圍已經很限縮到具體逮捕這個範圍已經非常小 具體逮捕那我們現在規範的是非侵入性的只要是侵入性的 可能就要回到205-1的鑑定許可書可能請專業的醫生採尿 導尿 或者是採血液等等這些那現在就是205-2-3 現在最主要在規範這些\n那205之三司法院,再請司法院的同仁205之三司法院的版本跟行政院的版本我如果從字面上看起來是有一個司法院的版本是送交執行機關及受採取人然後行政院的版本是要出示許可書\n這兩個的文字上,你們雙方有什麼樣的爭執?像委員報告,之所以司法院版本是規定送交這是因為採刑事訴訟法類似規定的相同法例像34條之一,限制辯護人跟其他被告接見通信的限制書還有103條\n就是羈押那個押票那還有203條之二這個執行鑑定留置的這個鑑定留置書都是採相同的法例要那個送交那這個也有一個作用就是說那個送交之後呢這個被告或者是犯罪嫌疑人呢他可以依據這個從這個時間點很清楚的就是說提出救濟\n就說你送交給他的那一個時間點開始對不對是是是嗎是那你們雙方的文字啊這個行政院的版本叫做初試對不對\n出示這個許可書嗎報告委員我想我想比較我們行政院版跟司法院版的不一樣的地方在於說他們使用送交給執行機關跟受裁員人\n那這一個動作的話在前面一條就是侵入性的205-1請鑑定人採尿的我們只是希望我們只是出示就是這一個許可書加上出示證件就可以完成了程序同樣的是採尿結果現在新的法律規定205-2卻是要送達\n送交送交給執行機關以及受採人變成跟前面的強制是不一樣的程序我們第一線執行的警察一定會搞混到底是要送交不送交其實送交跟救濟沒有關係因為只要強制準備做了以後10天就是他的救濟期間不需要跟205之一有不同的規定\n我想這是比較接近就是只要出示我們給他許可書然後出示證件這個就可以達到他這個救濟的起點的起算我想就不用再規定這個送交這兩個字那司法員你們雙方的這個就這些文字上的差別\n像委員在做的那個報告就是說司法院那個版本呢這樣子的出發意旨是為了讓就是被告或是犯罪嫌疑人他的權利更完善那如果說是在第一線的那個執法同仁他們覺得說是就是這樣子會造成他們困擾的話這個部分司法院其實並沒有堅持就是說採那個法務部或者是那個內政部警政署他們建議這我們都可以的\nOK,那這個就進入主條的時候,你們再弄一個,你總不可以說聽的人,叫實際執行的人就在這個文字上在那邊糾結,其實也沒什麼意義啦那最後建議啊,這個以後你們來這裡備詢啊,有人再問個案你不要理他\n你們怎麼看這裡談個案呢 談到那麼細 談到個別的人 個別的法官 個別的什麼談個案不應該是立法院該處理的 這個到時候你就回答他 個案 委員個案我們不便回答好不好 沒得陷入到那個個案裡頭個案有時候是 講到這裡就好了 謝謝謝謝王委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:12.637 --> 00:21.466\n請法務部跟警政署的代表好麻煩次長委員好\n\n00:24.758 --> 00:51.881\n今天這個刑法的修正案我想請問一下過去在採取這種尿液的檢查的時候實務上有沒有未經對方同意或沒有任何的文件就讓這個當事人就說你現在去給我採尿液然後我懷疑你吸毒我現在叫你去採尿液有沒有發生過這種事\n\n00:54.116 --> 01:23.304\n是不是那請問一下委員是指逮捕居體的嗎不是就是說比如說毒駕酒駕之類的不會一般來講都有其他的事證譬如說在車上有扣到毒品或者是他行車是有不正常的軌跡那他如果發現他有毒品對不對然後呢你就覺得他吸毒是那你叫他採尿液\n\n01:23.800 --> 01:50.331\n那他不採呢不採在法律上規定是可以報請檢察官做侵入性的採驗那非侵入性是什麼意思當時就是食物上的非侵入性是什麼概念對就是讓他喝水然後排尿那他如果都不喝呢都不喝到後來我們就報請檢察官回到205之一採鑑定許可書\n\n01:52.745 --> 02:00.243\n那報請檢察官要時間嘛對不對那我們現在修這個法是因為有些時間緊迫嘛對不對你們認為要\n\n02:03.414 --> 02:30.954\n趕快採嘛對不對修這個法是因為我們憲判16號認為說這個部分還是要有這個令狀所以有令狀所以才205-2205-3才說這個部分有關非侵入性的也是需要經過檢察官的許可所以才增訂了205-2然後-3變成說那個這個處分書的格式許可書的格式裡面是怎麼樣的對但是現在又認為說這個\n\n02:33.115 --> 03:00.086\n如果有這個認定,認定我要馬上裁,後來才報檢察官嘛,對不對?那這個認定是給警方或者這個相關的司法警察有很大的裁揚權,是不是?包委,那個是對於,我們現在是這樣子齁我們205-1-2-3是針對具體跟逮捕的,我們範圍已經限縮了那像街頭上的盤查那個部分,那是一定要回歸到強制處分\n\n03:00.626 --> 03:21.756\n那我們是已經經過譬如說現場已經有毒品了那我已經經過居體或逮捕那這個限縮這個範圍的對象是已經經過居體跟逮捕那居體跟逮捕在過去裡面他如果不想採尿我們可能就是給他喝水那給他喝水以後所以才會延伸到111年的憲判16號然後憲判16號下來以後事實上憲判16號下來以後\n\n03:24.810 --> 03:39.973\n我們在整個警政署他整個採尿的一些程序就已經回歸到依照憲判這個16號的相關規定訂定一個SOP那我們現在只是把它法制化那如果這一個當事人他不服\n\n03:40.615 --> 04:05.547\n現在的這個規定是新的規定是說他可以救濟嘛那救濟的話如果檢察官撤銷撤銷是就是採的這個相關的這個市政就不用了是不是是這個意思是不是是是不具證據能力那如果說這個不具證據能力那資檢採的就算啦就是就把它銷毀掉啦那當事人也沒有辦法說你當時為什麼給我採\n\n04:07.950 --> 04:28.983\n是所以因為這個範圍已經很限縮到具體逮捕這個範圍已經非常小具體逮捕那我們現在規範的是非侵入性的只要是侵入性的可能就要回到205-1的鑑定許可書可能請專業的醫生採尿導尿或者是採血液等等這些那現在就是205-2-3現在最主要在規範這些\n\n04:31.707 --> 04:57.944\n那205之三司法院,再請司法院的同仁205之三司法院的版本跟行政院的版本我如果從字面上看起來是有一個司法院的版本是送交執行機關及受採取人然後行政院的版本是要出示許可書\n\n04:59.954 --> 05:23.653\n這兩個的文字上,你們雙方有什麼樣的爭執?像委員報告,之所以司法院版本是規定送交這是因為採刑事訴訟法類似規定的相同法例像34條之一,限制辯護人跟其他被告接見通信的限制書還有103條\n\n05:26.135 --> 05:52.736\n就是羈押那個押票那還有203條之二這個執行鑑定留置的這個鑑定留置書都是採相同的法例要那個送交那這個也有一個作用就是說那個送交之後呢這個被告或者是犯罪嫌疑人呢他可以依據這個從這個時間點很清楚的就是說提出救濟\n\n05:53.663 --> 06:08.154\n就說你送交給他的那一個時間點開始對不對是是是嗎是那你們雙方的文字啊這個行政院的版本叫做初試對不對\n\n06:10.310 --> 06:26.065\n出示這個許可書嗎報告委員我想我想比較我們行政院版跟司法院版的不一樣的地方在於說他們使用送交給執行機關跟受裁員人\n\n06:27.506 --> 06:47.820\n那這一個動作的話在前面一條就是侵入性的205-1請鑑定人採尿的我們只是希望我們只是出示就是這一個許可書加上出示證件就可以完成了程序同樣的是採尿結果現在新的法律規定205-2卻是要送達\n\n06:50.902 --> 07:12.088\n送交送交給執行機關以及受採人變成跟前面的強制是不一樣的程序我們第一線執行的警察一定會搞混到底是要送交不送交其實送交跟救濟沒有關係因為只要強制準備做了以後10天就是他的救濟期間不需要跟205之一有不同的規定\n\n07:12.768 --> 07:28.462\n我想這是比較接近就是只要出示我們給他許可書然後出示證件這個就可以達到他這個救濟的起點的起算我想就不用再規定這個送交這兩個字那司法員你們雙方的這個就這些文字上的差別\n\n07:29.423 --> 07:57.404\n像委員在做的那個報告就是說司法院那個版本呢這樣子的出發意旨是為了讓就是被告或是犯罪嫌疑人他的權利更完善那如果說是在第一線的那個執法同仁他們覺得說是就是這樣子會造成他們困擾的話這個部分司法院其實並沒有堅持就是說採那個法務部或者是那個內政部警政署他們建議這我們都可以的\n\n07:58.120 --> 08:15.522\nOK,那這個就進入主條的時候,你們再弄一個,你總不可以說聽的人,叫實際執行的人就在這個文字上在那邊糾結,其實也沒什麼意義啦那最後建議啊,這個以後你們來這裡備詢啊,有人再問個案你不要理他\n\n08:17.557 --> 08:41.517\n你們怎麼看這裡談個案呢談到那麼細談到個別的人個別的法官個別的什麼談個案不應該是立法院該處理的這個到時候你就回答他個案委員個案我們不便回答好不好沒得陷入到那個個案裡頭個案有時候是講到這裡就好了謝謝謝謝王委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":12.637,"end":21.466,"text":"請法務部跟警政署的代表好麻煩次長委員好"},{"start":24.758,"end":51.881,"text":"今天這個刑法的修正案我想請問一下過去在採取這種尿液的檢查的時候實務上有沒有未經對方同意或沒有任何的文件就讓這個當事人就說你現在去給我採尿液然後我懷疑你吸毒我現在叫你去採尿液有沒有發生過這種事"},{"start":54.116,"end":83.304,"text":"是不是那請問一下委員是指逮捕居體的嗎不是 就是說比如說毒駕酒駕之類的不會一般來講都有其他的事證譬如說在車上有扣到毒品或者是他行車是有不正常的軌跡那他如果發現他有毒品對不對然後呢你就覺得他吸毒是那你叫他採尿液"},{"start":83.8,"end":110.331,"text":"那他不採呢不採在法律上規定是可以報請檢察官做侵入性的採驗那非侵入性是什麼意思當時就是食物上的非侵入性是什麼概念對就是讓他喝水然後排尿那他如果都不喝呢都不喝到後來我們就報請檢察官回到205之一採鑑定許可書"},{"start":112.745,"end":120.243,"text":"那報請檢察官要時間嘛 對不對那我們現在修這個法是因為有些時間緊迫嘛 對不對你們認為要"},{"start":123.414,"end":150.954,"text":"趕快採嘛 對不對修這個法是因為我們憲判16號認為說這個部分還是要有這個令狀所以有令狀所以才205-2 205-3才說這個部分有關非侵入性的也是需要經過檢察官的許可所以才增訂了205-2然後-3變成說那個這個處分書的格式許可書的格式裡面是怎麼樣的對 但是現在又認為說這個"},{"start":153.115,"end":180.086,"text":"如果有這個認定,認定我要馬上裁,後來才報檢察官嘛,對不對?那這個認定是給警方或者這個相關的司法警察有很大的裁揚權,是不是?包委,那個是對於,我們現在是這樣子齁我們205-1-2-3是針對具體跟逮捕的,我們範圍已經限縮了那像街頭上的盤查那個部分,那是一定要回歸到強制處分"},{"start":180.626,"end":201.756,"text":"那我們是已經經過 譬如說現場已經有毒品了 那我已經經過居體或逮捕那這個限縮這個範圍的對象是已經經過居體跟逮捕那居體跟逮捕在過去裡面 他如果不想採尿 我們可能就是給他喝水那給他喝水以後 所以才會延伸到111年的憲判16號然後憲判16號下來以後 事實上憲判16號下來以後"},{"start":204.81,"end":219.973,"text":"我們在整個警政署他整個採尿的一些程序就已經回歸到依照憲判這個16號的相關規定訂定一個SOP那我們現在只是把它法制化那如果這一個當事人他不服"},{"start":220.615,"end":245.547,"text":"現在的這個規定是 新的規定是說他可以救濟嘛那救濟的話如果檢察官撤銷 撤銷是就是採的這個相關的這個市政就不用了是不是是這個意思是不是是是 不具證據能力那如果說這個不具證據能力 那資檢採的就算啦就是就把它銷毀掉啦那當事人也沒有辦法說你當時為什麼給我採"},{"start":247.95,"end":268.983,"text":"是 所以因為這個範圍已經很限縮到具體逮捕這個範圍已經非常小 具體逮捕那我們現在規範的是非侵入性的只要是侵入性的 可能就要回到205-1的鑑定許可書可能請專業的醫生採尿 導尿 或者是採血液等等這些那現在就是205-2-3 現在最主要在規範這些"},{"start":271.707,"end":297.944,"text":"那205之三司法院,再請司法院的同仁205之三司法院的版本跟行政院的版本我如果從字面上看起來是有一個司法院的版本是送交執行機關及受採取人然後行政院的版本是要出示許可書"},{"start":299.954,"end":323.653,"text":"這兩個的文字上,你們雙方有什麼樣的爭執?像委員報告,之所以司法院版本是規定送交這是因為採刑事訴訟法類似規定的相同法例像34條之一,限制辯護人跟其他被告接見通信的限制書還有103條"},{"start":326.135,"end":352.736,"text":"就是羈押那個押票那還有203條之二這個執行鑑定留置的這個鑑定留置書都是採相同的法例要那個送交那這個也有一個作用就是說那個送交之後呢這個被告或者是犯罪嫌疑人呢他可以依據這個從這個時間點很清楚的就是說提出救濟"},{"start":353.663,"end":368.154,"text":"就說你送交給他的那一個時間點開始對不對是是是嗎是那你們雙方的文字啊這個行政院的版本叫做初試對不對"},{"start":370.31,"end":386.065,"text":"出示這個許可書嗎報告委員我想我想比較我們行政院版跟司法院版的不一樣的地方在於說他們使用送交給執行機關跟受裁員人"},{"start":387.506,"end":407.82,"text":"那這一個動作的話在前面一條就是侵入性的205-1請鑑定人採尿的我們只是希望我們只是出示就是這一個許可書加上出示證件就可以完成了程序同樣的是採尿結果現在新的法律規定205-2卻是要送達"},{"start":410.902,"end":432.088,"text":"送交送交給執行機關以及受採人變成跟前面的強制是不一樣的程序我們第一線執行的警察一定會搞混到底是要送交不送交其實送交跟救濟沒有關係因為只要強制準備做了以後10天就是他的救濟期間不需要跟205之一有不同的規定"},{"start":432.768,"end":448.462,"text":"我想這是比較接近就是只要出示我們給他許可書然後出示證件這個就可以達到他這個救濟的起點的起算我想就不用再規定這個送交這兩個字那司法員你們雙方的這個就這些文字上的差別"},{"start":449.423,"end":477.404,"text":"像委員在做的那個報告就是說司法院那個版本呢這樣子的出發意旨是為了讓就是被告或是犯罪嫌疑人他的權利更完善那如果說是在第一線的那個執法同仁他們覺得說是就是這樣子會造成他們困擾的話這個部分司法院其實並沒有堅持就是說採那個法務部或者是那個內政部警政署他們建議這我們都可以的"},{"start":478.12,"end":495.522,"text":"OK,那這個就進入主條的時候,你們再弄一個,你總不可以說聽的人,叫實際執行的人就在這個文字上在那邊糾結,其實也沒什麼意義啦那最後建議啊,這個以後你們來這裡備詢啊,有人再問個案你不要理他"},{"start":497.557,"end":521.517,"text":"你們怎麼看這裡談個案呢 談到那麼細 談到個別的人 個別的法官 個別的什麼談個案不應該是立法院該處理的 這個到時候你就回答他 個案 委員個案我們不便回答好不好 沒得陷入到那個個案裡頭個案有時候是 講到這裡就好了 謝謝謝謝王委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":232,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（9時30分）召委，請法務部跟警政署的代表。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["王委員義川：針對今天刑訴法的修正案，我想請問一下，過去在採取尿液檢查的實務上，有沒有未經對方同意或者沒有任何文件就讓當事人立即去採尿液？也就是懷疑他吸毒，就立即請他去採尿液，有沒有發生過這種事？"],["徐次長錫祥：請問一下委員，是指逮捕、拘提的嗎？"],["王委員義川：不是，譬如毒駕、酒駕之類的。"],["徐次長錫祥：不會，一般來講都有其他的事證，譬如在車上有扣到毒品或者行車有不正常的軌跡。"],["王委員義川：如果發現他有毒品，你們會覺得他吸毒，就請他採尿液，倘若他不採呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：依法律上的規定，不採是可以報請檢察官做侵入性的採驗。"],["王委員義川：非侵入性是什麼意思？"],["徐次長錫祥：當時就是……"],["王委員義川：實務上的非侵入性是什麼概念？"],["徐次長錫祥：就是讓他喝水，然後排尿。"],["王委員義川：他如果都不喝呢？"],["林副局長故廷：若都不喝，到後來我們就報請檢察官，回到第二百零五條之一採鑑定許可書。"],["王委員義川：報請檢察官要時間嘛，對不對？"],["林副局長故廷：要時間。"],["王委員義川：我們現在修這個法是因為有些時間緊迫嘛，對不對？你們認為要趕快採，對不對？"],["林副局長故廷：修這個法是因為憲判字第16號認為這個部分還是要有令狀，因為要有令狀，所以第二百零五條之二、第二百零五條之三才提到有關非侵入性的部分也需要經過檢察官的許可，因此才增訂了第二百零五條之二，而之三是規定許可書的格式要怎麼樣。"],["王委員義川：對，但是現在如果認定要馬上採，後來才報檢察官嘛，對不對？"],["林副局長故廷：是。"],["王委員義川：這個認定是給警方或者相關的司法警察有很大的裁量權，是不是？"],["林副局長故廷：報告委員，我們現在是這樣子，第二百零五條之一、之二、之三是針對拘提跟逮捕的，範圍已經限縮了，像街頭上的盤查部分，那是一定要回歸到強制處分，比如現場已經有毒品，而我們已經經過拘提或逮捕，所以限縮範圍的對象是已經經過拘提跟逮捕。在過去裡面，拘提跟逮捕的如果不想採尿，我們可能就是給他喝水，而給他喝水以後，所以才會衍生到111年的憲判字第16號，事實上憲判字第16號下來以後，警政署整個採尿的一些程序就已經回歸到依照憲判字第16號的相關規定而訂定一個SOP，我們現在只是把它法制化。"],["王委員義川：OK，如果這個當事人不服，依現在的新規定是他可以救濟嘛！"],["林副局長故廷：是。"],["王委員義川：而救濟的話，如果檢察官撤銷，則採的相關事證就不用了，是不是？是這個意思，是不是？"],["林副局長故廷：是，不具證據能力。"],["王委員義川：如果不具證據能力，那之前採的就算了？"],["林副局長故廷：就把它銷毀掉。"],["王委員義川：那當事人也沒有辦法說你們當時為什麼給他採？"],["林副局長故廷：是，因為這個範圍已經很限縮到拘提、逮捕，這個範圍已經非常小，即拘提、逮捕。我們現在規範的是非侵入性的，只要是侵入性的，可能就要回到第二百零五條之一的鑑定許可書，請專業的醫生導尿或者採血液等等，目前第二百零五條之二、之三最主要是在規範這些。"],["王委員義川：再請司法院的同仁。針對第二百零五條之三，司法院的版本跟行政院的版本，我如果從字面上看起來，司法院的版本是送交執行機關及受採取人；行政院的版本是要出示許可書。在這兩個的文字上，你們雙方有什麼樣的爭執啊？"],["王副秘書長梅英：向委員報告，司法院的版本是規定「送交」，是因為採刑事訴訟法有類似這樣規定的相同法例，像第三十四條之一，限制辯護人與羈押之被告接見或通信的限制書；第一百零三條，即羈押的押票；第兩百零三條之二，執行鑑定留置的鑑定留置票，都是採相同的法例要送交。這也有一個作用，就是送交之後，被告或者犯罪嫌疑人可以有依據從這個時間點很清楚地提出救濟。"],["王委員義川：就是以送交給他的那一個時間點開始，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["王委員義川：是嘛？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["王委員義川：但你們雙方的文字，行政院的版本叫做「出示許可書」。"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，行政院版跟司法院版不一樣的地方在於，他們使用「送交」給執行機關跟受採驗人，關於這一個動作，在前面一條就是侵入性的第二百零五條之一請鑑定人採尿的，我們希望只是出示，就是許可書加上出示證件就可以完成程序。同樣是採尿，結果現在新的法令規定，即第二百零五條之二卻是要送交給執行機關及受採人，變成跟前面的強制是不一樣的程序，這樣第一線執行的警察一定會搞混，到底是要不要送交？其實送交跟救濟沒有關係，因為只要強制處分做了以後，10天就是他的救濟期間，不需要跟第二百零五條之一有不同的規定，我想這是比較接近的，就是我們給他許可書，然後出示證件，這樣就可以達到他救濟期間的起算，我想就不用再規定「送交」這兩個字。"],["王委員義川：司法院，你們雙方就是這些文字上的差別嘛！"],["王副秘書長梅英：向委員再做報告，司法院版本的出發意旨是為了讓被告或是犯罪嫌疑人的權利更完善，如果在第一線的執法同仁覺得這樣子會造成他們困擾的話，這個部分司法院其實並沒有堅持，就是採法務部或者內政部警政署的建議我們都可以。"],["王委員義川：OK，那這就在進入逐條的時候，你們再溝通一下，總不能訂定的人跟實際執行的人在這個文字上糾結，其實也沒什麼意義啦！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["王委員義川：最後，建議以後你們來這裡備詢，有人在問個案時你不要理他。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["王委員義川：你們怎麼可以在這裡談個案呢？談到那麼細，談到個別的人、個別的法官、個別的什麼，談個案不應該是立法院該處理的，到時候你就回答他：委員，個案我們不便回答。好不好？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["王委員義川：不用再陷入到個案裡頭，個案有時候是……說到這裡就好了，謝謝。"],["徐次長錫祥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","下一位請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":246,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-4","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","黃國昌","王義川","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","王鴻薇"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅智強等\n17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「刑事\n訴訟法第二百零五條之二、第二百零五條之三及第二百零五條之四條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n林楚茵等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143101_00004"}}}