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謝謝我想就是剛剛這個莊瑞雄委員他說他的不當發言其實這個讓人家看笑話這個整個國民黨對不起我剛剛不是莊瑞雄委員對不起我剛剛說錯了剛剛是審發會委員\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 169.396, \"end\": 170.497, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"世\", \"start\": 170.497, \"end\": 170.617, \"score\": 0.649}, {\"word\": \"界\", \"start\": 170.617, \"end\": 170.777, \"score\": 0.658}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 170.777, \"end\": 170.977, \"score\": 0.693}, {\"word\": \"笑\", \"start\": 170.977, \"end\": 171.218, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 171.218, \"end\": 171.458, \"score\": 0.583}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 171.458, \"end\": 171.618, \"score\": 0.733}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 171.618, \"end\": 171.638, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 171.638, \"end\": 171.658, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 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288.991, \"end\": 289.472, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 289.472, \"end\": 289.632, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 289.632, \"end\": 289.772, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 289.772, \"end\": 290.032, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 290.032, \"end\": 290.172, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 290.172, \"end\": 290.653, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"副\", \"start\": 290.653, \"end\": 290.773, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"局\", \"start\": 290.773, \"end\": 293.297, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 293.297, \"end\": 293.797, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 293.797, \"end\": 293.917, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 293.917, \"end\": 294.218, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"興\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 294.218, \"end\": 294.558, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 294.558, \"end\": 295.279, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 295.279, \"end\": 295.419, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 295.419, \"end\": 295.64, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 295.64, \"end\": 295.8, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 295.8, \"end\": 295.82, \"score\": 0.842}]}, {\"start\": 298.021, \"end\": 324.236, \"text\": \"那謝謝我先請教一個問題我想說我們今天討論的主題是對於這個草案就是有關逮捕到案的犯罪嫌疑人我們要對他進行非侵入式的採尿那這個需要得到檢察官同意讓檢察官來保留和發許可書但是呢我看到一個問題就是我們實務上面有非常多的案子都必須對這個被告進行採尿的這個動作像毒販或是像\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 298.021, \"end\": 298.381, \"score\": 0.782}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 298.381, \"end\": 298.481, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 298.481, \"end\": 298.902, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 298.902, \"end\": 299.202, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 299.202, \"end\": 299.522, 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\"甚至其他的刑案有時候當事人在抗辯他可能是吸毒後所為那他在量刑上面可能會有所不一樣這個時候採尿都變成一個很重要的證據我想三位都是食物界所以非常的能夠理解但是呢這次司法院跟\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"甚\", \"start\": 324.756, \"end\": 324.916, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 324.916, \"end\": 325.076, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 325.076, \"end\": 325.216, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 325.216, \"end\": 325.377, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 325.377, \"end\": 325.517, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"刑\", \"start\": 325.517, \"end\": 325.677, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 325.677, \"end\": 325.837, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 325.837, \"end\": 326.117, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 326.117, \"end\": 326.457, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 326.457, \"end\": 326.557, \"score\": 0.726}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 326.557, \"end\": 326.637, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 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339.547, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 339.547, \"end\": 339.887, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 339.887, \"end\": 340.087, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 340.087, \"end\": 340.267, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 340.267, \"end\": 340.407, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 340.407, \"end\": 340.687, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 340.687, \"end\": 340.707, \"score\": 0.893}]}, {\"start\": 341.488, \"end\": 363.443, \"text\": \"行政院的版本最大的不同就是檢察官許可書就是檢察官保留的這個檢察官許可書要就是說另外要不要送交執行機關還有那個受採尿人有沒有需要送達我想先請教一下司法院為何司法院在草案裡面有提到要送交執行機關以及受採取人\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 341.488, \"end\": 341.668, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 341.668, \"end\": 341.808, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 341.808, \"end\": 341.908, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 341.908, \"end\": 342.048, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"版\", \"start\": 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366.906, \"end\": 384.938, \"text\": \"那這個部分剛才在報告中有說到就是說我們現在規定的這個送交呢它是採在刑事訴訟法相同的這些規定的那個法例像是34條之一限制辯護人還有羈押被告接見通信的這個限制書\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 366.906, \"end\": 367.286, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 367.286, \"end\": 367.427, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 367.427, \"end\": 367.847, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 367.847, \"end\": 368.047, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 368.047, \"end\": 368.367, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 368.367, \"end\": 368.527, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 368.527, \"end\": 368.727, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 368.727, \"end\": 369.248, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 369.248, \"end\": 370.028, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 370.028, \"end\": 370.148, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"是\", 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\"所以我自己在看這個的時候我也會覺得說這個在實務上面反而會困擾自己所以說思考院就這個部分可不可以再思考一下看草案是不是一定要放入這個因為這在第一線執行上面將來會有一些麻煩發生因為我自己看完之後我也覺得\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 612.746, \"end\": 613.007, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 613.007, \"end\": 613.067, \"score\": 0.67}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 613.067, \"end\": 613.247, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 613.247, \"end\": 613.307, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 613.307, \"end\": 613.347, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 613.347, \"end\": 613.487, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 613.487, \"end\": 613.728, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 613.728, \"end\": 613.888, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 613.888, \"end\": 614.048, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 614.048, \"end\": 614.389, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 614.389, \"end\": 614.549, \"score\": 0.875}, 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{\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 626.385, \"end\": 627.667, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 627.667, \"end\": 627.807, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 627.807, \"end\": 627.947, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 627.947, \"end\": 628.028, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 628.028, \"end\": 628.108, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 628.108, \"end\": 628.288, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 628.288, \"end\": 628.468, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 628.468, \"end\": 628.548, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 628.548, \"end\": 628.648, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 628.648, \"end\": 628.829, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 628.829, \"end\": 629.029, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 629.029, \"end\": 629.049, \"score\": 1.0}]}, {\"start\": 630.03, \"end\": 650.825, \"text\": \"這個沒有必要 而且對當事人的保障其實起算時間已經很明確啦就檢察官的處分時間點啦所以真的有需要再多一個送達來去保障嗎我想說刑事案件的偵辦同時要維護社會公義以及被告的當事人的程序正義那這兩個權衡之下我是建議可以再討論這個問題\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 630.03, \"end\": 630.13, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 630.13, \"end\": 630.29, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"必\", \"start\": 630.29, \"end\": 630.41, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 630.41, \"end\": 630.551, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 630.551, \"end\": 630.631, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"且\", \"start\": 630.631, \"end\": 631.131, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 631.131, \"end\": 631.231, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 631.231, \"end\": 631.291, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 631.291, \"end\": 631.431, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 631.431, \"end\": 631.651, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"障\", \"start\": 631.651, \"end\": 631.871, 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\"常\", \"start\": 1426.211, \"end\": 1426.411, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1426.411, \"end\": 1426.611, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 1426.611, \"end\": 1426.631, \"score\": 0.914}]}, {\"start\": 1427.965, \"end\": 1451.414, \"text\": \"視察也有視察報告會帶書記官去進行視察報告都會做得很清楚會通知法院會呈報長官我想這個是該做的基本的作為所以我們這邊可以確認一件事過去20年除了這位檢察官曾經做過之外沒有全國沒有檢察官做過這個事情我問過一堆同學他們連聽都沒有聽過這樣子做所以因為這樣所以容易讓人家\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"視\"}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 1427.965, \"end\": 1428.165, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 1428.165, \"end\": 1428.285, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1428.285, \"end\": 1428.565, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"視\"}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 1428.565, \"end\": 1428.965, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 1428.965, \"end\": 1429.686, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"帶\"}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"記\"}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 1429.686, \"end\": 1429.886, 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1446.772, \"end\": 1446.972, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 1446.972, \"end\": 1447.092, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1447.092, \"end\": 1447.712, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"連\"}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 1447.712, \"end\": 1447.853, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 1447.853, \"end\": 1447.973, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1447.973, \"end\": 1448.753, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 1448.753, \"end\": 1448.893, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 1448.893, \"end\": 1449.073, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1449.073, \"end\": 1449.893, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1449.893, \"end\": 1449.953, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 1449.953, \"end\": 1450.554, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1450.554, \"end\": 1450.674, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1450.674, \"end\": 1450.774, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"容\", \"start\": 1450.774, \"end\": 1450.954, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"易\", \"start\": 1450.954, \"end\": 1451.234, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 1451.234, \"end\": 1451.394, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 1451.394, \"end\": 1451.414, \"score\": 0.716}]}, {\"start\": 1452.813, \"end\": 1477.354, \"text\": \"而且甚至對於高度爭議案件更容易發生糾紛我不是要譴責那位警察官我只是說請次長注意一下尤其是高度爭議案件政治案件對於程序的要求要求警察官要更嚴謹警察官千萬不能為了辦案為了辦出一個案子升遷不要說辦出案子升遷為了辦出一個案子有成就感而去就程序部分\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 1452.813, \"end\": 1453.273, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"且\", \"start\": 1453.273, \"end\": 1453.434, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"甚\", \"start\": 1453.434, \"end\": 1453.654, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 1453.654, \"end\": 1453.974, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": 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--> 00:00:25,918\n請問主席我想會議詢問一下就是因為剛剛有一點我剛剛主持會議的時候有一點小衝突因為主要就是說我想要確認一下我們委員會那委員在質詢的時間內如果問的問題跟本日的議程不一樣那到底可以還是不可以因為之前吳世耀委員他其實曾經就委員在\n\n2\n00:00:26,798 --> 00:00:47,632\n他的時間內然後詢問官員跟今日的議程不一樣的題目他當時一直抗議那因為今天他問的東西也跟今日的議程完全不一樣所以我剛剛只是要就這個會議程序的部分我想說做一個確認那我不知道主席這部分主席有什麼想法\n\n3\n00:00:48,627 --> 00:01:10,892\n我想依照過去不管是民進黨委員或是國民黨的委員在主持私委會的相關會議的時候其實主席都會尊重委員在時間內的發言通常不會去干預委員在質詢的時間裡面的任何的發言內容\n\n4\n00:01:11,462 --> 00:01:36,453\n好謝謝因為剛剛喔因為剛剛我其實我是公正的在主持會議那我認為這個是一個會議的這個怎麼進行的問題這其實跟所謂的政治鬥那個惡鬥或者是什麼並沒有關聯性我只是要確認一下而且確認之後就是適用於每一個委員而不是特定委員可以特定委員不行所以我想我剛剛指這個那我不知道為什麼剛剛有人會\n\n5\n00:01:38,494 --> 00:02:03,409\n這麼大發脾氣然後連那個髒話都罵出來那我也在這邊補充一下就是說罵人家垃圾在實務的判決是構成公然無路我想說這可能跟其他委員提醒一下不是說罵人垃圾就沒事情罵人垃圾其實是構成公然無路尤其在國會殿堂裡面身為一個國家的中央級的民意代表在那邊大吼大叫拍桌子罵髒話其實\n\n6\n00:02:05,664 --> 00:02:25,114\n這個作為就是讓人家去取笑說到底我們國會議員的水準在什麼地方那當然當然社會本來對國會議員的期待這段時間可能大家也都心裡有數啦但是我還是希望說我至少我會這樣要求我自己我就是在國會開會的時候委員會開會的時候其實\n\n7\n00:02:28,755 --> 00:02:48,095\n除了最基本的要求自己要言之有物之外也要懂得控制情緒尊重別人更不可以說在那邊還罵別人在法律上面實務上面已經判決非常多的判決認定這個會構成公然污辱的事情那如果說可以隨隨便便就這樣的話那台灣\n\n8\n00:02:49,396 --> 00:02:56,701\n國會其實會讓世界看笑話這我想說這是我剛剛的會議詢問那我就確認一下在我們的詢問的時間內其實我們就是尊重委員的發言好謝謝我想就是剛剛這個莊瑞雄委員他說他的不當發言其實這個讓人家看笑話這個整個國民黨對不起我剛剛不是莊瑞雄委員對不起我剛剛說錯了剛剛是審發會委員\n\n9\n00:03:16,294 --> 00:03:36,384\n他的不當發言是讓這個社會在看笑話立法委員作為社會的一個表率我覺得應該是在任何的場合裡面都要謹慎發言不可以有任何的暴力或是辱罵的這樣的一個行為那麼像我們昨天在立法院的院會裡面也是看到這柯建民總召\n\n10\n00:03:37,365 --> 00:03:54,167\n這個暴力這個拿棍子去敲桌子然後甚至還波及到還傷害到了這個徐曉新委員其實這些都是非常不當的言行那我們希望我們未來在司法委會的會議的場合裡面呢都能夠大家能夠尊重\n\n11\n00:03:55,288 --> 00:04:18,437\n是我也跟主席及在座的各位委員還有各位報告就像民進黨最喜歡說最近對於那個中配那個雅雅案一直說言論自由不是毫無限制這個邏輯一樣言論免責權也不是毫無限制你不能動不動對人家罵髒話像剛罵我垃圾我是覺得我在那邊說我不會去提告啦因為\n\n12\n00:04:19,895 --> 00:04:35,381\n因為你自己是不是個垃圾自己心裡很清楚那你罵別人垃圾到底誰是垃圾我想說就算了我就我不會去提告好謝謝好那我們麻煩司法院法務部以及刑事局主委好是謝謝\n\n13\n00:04:44,605 --> 00:04:55,820\n好謝謝三位我想說在座我以前的長官還有以前一起合作辦過很多案子的副局長先說很高興在這邊能夠看到各位\n\n14\n00:04:58,021 --> 00:05:24,236\n那謝謝我先請教一個問題我想說我們今天討論的主題是對於這個草案就是有關逮捕到案的犯罪嫌疑人我們要對他進行非侵入式的採尿那這個需要得到檢察官同意讓檢察官來保留和發許可書但是呢我看到一個問題就是我們實務上面有非常多的案子都必須對這個被告進行採尿的這個動作像毒販或是像\n\n15\n00:05:24,756 --> 00:05:40,707\n甚至其他的刑案有時候當事人在抗辯他可能是吸毒後所為那他在量刑上面可能會有所不一樣這個時候採尿都變成一個很重要的證據我想三位都是食物界所以非常的能夠理解但是呢這次司法院跟\n\n16\n00:05:41,488 --> 00:06:03,443\n行政院的版本最大的不同就是檢察官許可書就是檢察官保留的這個檢察官許可書要就是說另外要不要送交執行機關還有那個受採尿人有沒有需要送達我想先請教一下司法院為何司法院在草案裡面有提到要送交執行機關以及受採取人\n\n17\n00:06:06,906 --> 00:06:24,938\n那這個部分剛才在報告中有說到就是說我們現在規定的這個送交呢它是採在刑事訴訟法相同的這些規定的那個法例像是34條之一限制辯護人還有羈押被告接見通信的這個限制書\n\n18\n00:06:25,999 --> 00:06:40,396\n那還有這103條執行羈押的押票這我們事務上最常做的就是這個押票那還有203條之二的執行留置鑑定留置的這個鑑定留置票你們目的是什麼要送達的目的是什麼\n\n19\n00:06:42,741 --> 00:07:03,142\n因為這是讓受採取人呢他可以真正的就是說收到這一份那個書那從這邊來開始就是作為那個我我想我聽懂的話就是當事人起算救濟時間嘛是明確的救濟時間我想說司法院是這個理由但是呢我想我請教一下副局長\n\n20\n00:07:04,303 --> 00:07:28,395\n實務上面這個有沒有辦法執行因為法務部跟我看了一下行政院跟市長院的版本不一樣是差在這個地方那警察在執行上面有沒有困難如果說每一份材料書都要送達執行機關跟當事人跟委員報告警察執行不是說有困難在很多包括我們的搜索扣押包括鑑定許可書事實上我們去都是出事\n\n21\n00:07:28,955 --> 00:07:48,162\n我們這些搜索票或是許可書讓他確認這樣的程序那我覺得警方在執行的時候如果能夠有一致的標準對於警察基層尤其是派出所的員警如果在執行這方面的話比較不會混淆而且這個現在已經限縮到他已經是\n\n22\n00:07:48,842 --> 00:08:09,150\n逮捕到案的人而且有相當理由等等這些我想對於整個自由權的侵犯會比較輕微已經比較輕微了這跟這個壓票啦或怎麼樣我相信他的侵害權是不太一樣那我想就是說我先跟三位報告一下我自己的實務經驗在第一線因為我為錢帶隊搜索非常多次\n\n23\n00:08:11,011 --> 00:08:39,870\n就很多人知道我以前曾經戴瑞搜索被開過槍那還好沒打到我我要講的是第一線執行跟司法院在辦公室想的其實是有一個差距那當然當事人是不是可以提醒救濟這起算時間點我們也要予以重視但是呢是不是檢察官其實他告知要採尿其實這個時間點就可以起算了而不需要說明確要收到那個許可書不以收到許可書那個時間點\n\n24\n00:08:41,532 --> 00:09:01,967\n他才能夠保障他的救濟的起算時間其實檢察官做這個處分的時候他當時聽到了這個也是算是起算這不是對當事人也很有保障嗎所以這個是我提出來因為司法院的意思是說這個是要確認當事人救濟的時間點但是在食物運作上面我自己的食物經驗其實\n\n25\n00:09:03,228 --> 00:09:28,785\n你要另外再要求警察機關再去做一個這個動作可能是多此一舉因為對於這個處分告訴當事人這個時間點是可以確定的譬如說筆錄可以確定譬如說現場拍攝的影片可以確定所以有沒有必要一定要做這個送達這會增加很多行政成本增加很多郵遞的費用以及增加\n\n26\n00:09:29,545 --> 00:09:55,439\n那個當事人將來的一些就是他可能就醫上面一些問題我覺得不一定說一定是好的所以這個部分可能再麻煩司法院跟法務部這邊能夠溝通市長我補充一點就是說這個送交這個要給執行機關跟受採尿的人的話這個要件一旦放進去可是跟前面的205之一條件是不一樣第一線的警察如果弄混的時候那將來這一個\n\n27\n00:09:57,526 --> 00:10:10,944\n沒有送交簽名這個動作沒有送交這個動作會直接影響到證據能力的問題這個也是我們擔心的地方弄混了以後反而後面的非侵入性的材料會被懷疑有證據能力的問題這個也是我們擔心的\n\n28\n00:10:12,746 --> 00:10:29,049\n所以我自己在看這個的時候我也會覺得說這個在實務上面反而會困擾自己所以說思考院就這個部分可不可以再思考一下看草案是不是一定要放入這個因為這在第一線執行上面將來會有一些麻煩發生因為我自己看完之後我也覺得\n\n29\n00:10:30,030 --> 00:10:50,825\n這個沒有必要而且對當事人的保障其實起算時間已經很明確啦就檢察官的處分時間點啦所以真的有需要再多一個送達來去保障嗎我想說刑事案件的偵辦同時要維護社會公義以及被告的當事人的程序正義那這兩個權衡之下我是建議可以再討論這個問題\n\n30\n00:10:53,863 --> 00:11:17,788\n跟委員報告司法院這部分是開放的就是我們會多聽從那個大家的意見更何況我們今天他是對於非侵入式的採尿如果侵入式當然我們可能意見就會比較多非侵入式的這個採尿其實而且是當事人自己排尿的有沒有必要程序保障到會讓第一線的執行機關不好執行我想是這個我們可以\n\n31\n00:11:18,368 --> 00:11:40,691\n我們今天任何一個法律的立出來是要對國家社會有貢獻這才有意義而不是無限上綱的那個權力保障這是我個人的前見好那我在這部分我想麻煩法務部也能夠一個禮拜內給我一個演繹就是有關這個部分好謝謝法務部那我再請教一下司法院那司法院這軍事審判那個\n\n32\n00:11:42,032 --> 00:11:53,078\n最近一直在吵這軍審判的問題我想請問一下今天排審的法案之所以要修法我們也是為了提升正當法律程序對不對今天的議案\n\n33\n00:11:54,755 --> 00:12:10,320\n沒問題嘛那當人民接受司法機關偵查審判的時候其實我想對他的程序保障最重要的最重要就是我們要讓他在一個正當程序保障之下來接受訴訟來進行訴訟這個很重要嘛那所以\n\n34\n00:12:15,239 --> 00:12:37,430\n我們先告訴國人一件事情今天軍人犯罪的話那是不是他還是實體法部分適用軍事審判法程序上面改用刑事訴訟法現在是這樣對不對那你知不知道當初廢除我們暫停軍事審判法適用的原因是什麼你知道嗎\n\n35\n00:12:40,298 --> 00:12:58,004\n這個部分是在那個民國102年的時候呢可能就是國人就是大家對於就是說軍事審判的部分對於那個正當程序的要求是不是能夠那個達到是這個部分大家有一些檢討對就是因為當時我們覺得我們我國的軍事審判他的程序保障的嚴謹度\n\n36\n00:12:59,344 --> 00:13:17,310\n是低於刑訴送法我想這個是沒有爭議的那這個也就是這個原因所以當年民進黨以及當年非常多的國人他認為說我們軍審辦法先暫停適用非暫時我們就是讓他受到普通法院的那個程序保障\n\n37\n00:13:17,930 --> 00:13:33,459\n也就是因為這個原因所以有非常多的案子就是我記得好像是反滲透法類的啦還是這類的案子好像現在都沒有一個確定判決出來很久了嘛所以我認為就是司法審判\n\n38\n00:13:34,580 --> 00:13:54,856\n普通法院的司法審判其實他的要求嚴謹度是很高所以他不會像軍事審判很快就判出來了那因為他的嚴謹度要求很高其實對當事人是一個保障啦那我個人是覺得說這些軍人也是大家的小孩而且大部分的軍人都是在20歲上下而已也是國人的小孩啊\n\n39\n00:13:55,316 --> 00:14:13,232\n那我們讓他受到比較完整的程序保障到底錯在哪裡為什麼我們要走回頭路這是我個人的意見那當然我知道您現在的位置也不方便就這個表達意見所以我想說我的認為就是為什麼我們要從一個保障嚴謹的\n\n40\n00:14:15,054 --> 00:14:42,446\n司法程序要走回保障不夠嚴謹的司法程序更何況當年改的就是強力主張的就是現在的執政黨民進黨而且現在又是民進黨希望把它改回軍事審判這個我想也要讓國人知道這個是蠻莫名其妙的而且對國家到底它的好處在哪裡其實我也想不通啦那我再請教一下那現在法院裡面是不是有設那個國安軍事專業案件的專股\n\n41\n00:14:44,346 --> 00:15:13,043\n有設專股或是專庭每個法院都有設嗎每個法院都有設好那我現在還是一個邏輯就是說目前有立法委員批評說這些法官不夠專業那我想如果我是不懂說一輩子從事審理審判案件的法官為什麼對於審理案件是不專業我想最多我們能夠說法官比較不專業的地方可能是對於軍中的文化比較不熟悉但是用這個理由去批評他不夠專業\n\n42\n00:15:15,426 --> 00:15:24,622\n我想說對於國安的一些東西比較不熟悉用這個去批評他不夠專業我想這個邏輯也沒有什麼道理啦所以我不太認同說\n\n43\n00:15:26,894 --> 00:15:54,626\n有些委員的這個說法啦那更何況我覺得普通法院的審判的獨立性是遠高於軍事法院啦這個我想也沒有國人或是任何一個政治人物敢否認這個道理我想讓國家受到司法官訓練所法官學院出來的這些專業的法官檢察官追溯以及審判這個是保障一個國人最大的程序保障這個是最大的程序保障我想這個才對而不是\n\n44\n00:15:55,766 --> 00:16:22,926\n去做一些很奇怪的調整另外就是說如果在喊說軍人受到滲透那我的一個感覺就是說奇怪阿瑪英九時代為什麼沒有軍人受滲透民進黨執政九年就軍隊都被滲透那你這個執政黨在搞什麼鬼為什麼九年了被滲透的這麼嚴重那就算我們要去處罰這些被滲透的軍人我們要重判該修的也是陸海工軍刑法而不是程序法的軍事審判法\n\n45\n00:16:23,707 --> 00:16:29,493\n邏輯也完全錯誤但是現在的政府就會誤導人民一直亂扯亂鬼扯我就像剛剛那個次長您回答吳思堯的問題一樣\n\n46\n00:16:33,735 --> 00:16:56,554\n你們講說我們認為憲判八有一個東西一致覺得需要公投他就跟你扯說我們有沒有廢死我一致覺得這個問題我有意見跟我國有廢死有什麼關係第二個他說我們有執行一個死刑啊那怎麼會叫我國廢住死刑這個更是腦殘這是法盲的人講的話不好意思我剛那句話講錯這是法盲的人講的話因為\n\n47\n00:17:00,957 --> 00:17:24,714\n執行死刑是對於確定判決去執行死刑能不能下判決是根本還沒有確定判決一審二審三審那個叫做判決所以有沒有一致覺是在法官審理案件的時候能不能夠下這樣的判決這個跟判決確定的案子執行死刑這兩回事嘛怎麼會講說我國有執行一個死刑所以我國沒有廢除死刑\n\n48\n00:17:25,254 --> 00:17:50,168\n這在法律上面的邏輯是不對所以他剛剛說邏輯他剛剛一直說這個邏輯怎麼樣我想說應該不是說邏輯有瑕疵的問題而是講話的人自己邏輯混亂他自己邏輯搞不清楚事實上這兩個東西是完全不同我想各位在場一定聽得懂我在講什麼那有的委員聽不懂就算了我已經我過去一年已經很努力但是我發現努力是對某些人是沒有效果的\n\n49\n00:17:50,885 --> 00:18:15,617\n所以次長剛剛你回答那個東西我在那邊聽我覺得這兩個東西無關啦所以我不這麼認同啦那因為廢除死刑與否我們從來沒有說死刑被宣告違憲或廢除我們是對於所謂的判決中加以自決這個東西我們希望聽取人民的觀念但是有一些無良的政客他們就喜歡帶風向一直騙人民說我國死刑沒有廢除啊你在公投什麼\n\n50\n00:18:16,357 --> 00:18:29,851\n然後就亂扯而對於一個沒有存在的東西進行公投我覺得這個都在騙人民啦這是現在這些政客們他們的每天的工作目的就是一直在騙人民但我對我自己的要求是不說謊講實話\n\n51\n00:18:31,613 --> 00:18:56,029\n那今天這個東西即使我講出來對自己不利我們還是得說實話我不會像有些政客只為了達到他某些目的然後就去那邊胡說八道就像他說他們對外說昨天晚上開會叫做突襲拜託民眾黨昨天白天就已經送出要會議要延長到晚上12點然後如果是被突襲的話還會有幾個人拿著那個牌子在那邊說會議無效嗎還有時間去準備那個牌子事實上在昨天在吃\n\n52\n00:18:56,869 --> 00:19:22,671\n晚餐便當的時候他們都站一排在那裡準備要衝進來我們也都看到只是我不想跟這些每天造謠說謊的政客混在一起如果這些造謠說謊政客就是我國的中央民意代表的話那其實是中華民國的悲哀因為你中央民意代表每天就是說謊從一路以來從不管是這次談論公投不管是預算的審查等等的外面就是鬼扯蛋胡說八道\n\n53\n00:19:23,846 --> 00:19:50,100\n然後連總統各部會首長都在騙人這個真是難以想像啦因為我以前我以前以為是行政機關最多做到美化數據至少說出來不會是說謊但是會到現在譬如說洪正漢部長說那個什麼金貼育兒金貼被刪光結果後來發現一毛都沒有刪然後說不是我是口誤這個社會充斥的這種謊言那這國家該怎麼辦\n\n54\n00:19:52,939 --> 00:20:08,650\n這我有感覺不好意思回到剛剛我說的就是有關軍事審判這個部分我還是必須這樣講因為這些軍人都是我們的小孩那這是我們的小孩也是我們的國人你今天讓他受到更完整的\n\n55\n00:20:09,591 --> 00:20:30,230\n成績保障錯在哪裡那不要什麼東西都為了選票把意識形態拉進來其實那個是對不起我們的子子孫孫那最後一個小東西行事局跟司導業先回去最後一個不好意思耽誤大家時間就是\n\n56\n00:20:31,712 --> 00:20:39,332\n次長你也是檢察官出身我也是檢察官出身嘛那次長以前就是我們的長官我們都非常的尊重尊敬次長\n\n57\n00:20:41,300 --> 00:21:08,094\n這個北檢這次3月12號的北檢新聞稿今年3月12號跟10月22號談論有關就是一位檢察官到醫院就訓審訊被告這件事情那我想請教一下那第一個我前提先說這個案子已經起訴法院審理中所以法務部現在的檢察官現在不是承辦的人所以不要再像上一次開會的時候有\n\n58\n00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:25,283\n某幾個立委在那邊喊說干涉個案怎麼可以詢問個案一個已經起訴的案件不是法務部現在在懲辦中了那跟法務部就這個案子的程序瑕疵去討論通案該怎麼解決\n\n59\n00:21:26,638 --> 00:21:43,207\n不這麼做才是對不起立法委員這個身份怎麼會在那邊喊說干預個案在那邊大呼小叫我覺得這個水準也很不夠也是一個法盲所以我這邊請教一下所以當天這個林姓檢察官去現場到底是訊問還是去視察那過去過去\n\n60\n00:21:47,967 --> 00:22:03,934\n五年內到底有多少檢察官是去視察那個視察醫院我想請教一下次長113年11月11號這一次是有詢問也有做筆錄那113年10月14號這一次是視察那兩次呢辯護人都在場\n\n61\n00:22:15,357 --> 00:22:31,746\n沒有辯護人在場我沒有意見啦對那我的意思是說好那以11號這次來說好了那你還沒有回答我第二個問題請問一下過去五年全國有多少檢察官去視察醫院而且有進行視察的程序這一個數字看守什麼醫院\n\n62\n00:22:40,117 --> 00:22:59,959\n喔那看守所的醫院沒有不是看守所不要跟我講看守所然後這個醫院的部分沒有對那喔不用說過去五年啦過去二十年啦我跟你講我跟上報告可能我財疏血淺但我自己二十年的檢察官生涯裡面我從來沒做過也沒聽過有同仁去\n\n63\n00:23:01,443 --> 00:23:28,595\n醫院正規的醫院去做視察場所的這個視察動作視察跟做筆錄完全不一樣視察是針對這個處所到底適不適合這個在押的被告他在那邊會不會受到人格人性尊嚴上面的侵害嘛所以兩個是不一樣的東西啊那你混在一起講我覺得今天之所以造成那麼大的民眾的糾紛就是這裡那這每一個糾紛都對司法傷害很重\n\n64\n00:23:29,235 --> 00:23:46,631\n所以我想請問過去20年有人這麼做嗎醫院視察的部分沒有對所以這就是我講的我再三講我過去20年沒有這樣的例子過那你們不要跟我們談說什麼看守所等等的那個視察那個是日常在做\n\n65\n00:23:47,965 --> 00:24:11,414\n視察也有視察報告會帶書記官去進行視察報告都會做得很清楚會通知法院會呈報長官我想這個是該做的基本的作為所以我們這邊可以確認一件事過去20年除了這位檢察官曾經做過之外沒有全國沒有檢察官做過這個事情我問過一堆同學他們連聽都沒有聽過這樣子做所以因為這樣所以容易讓人家\n\n66\n00:24:12,813 --> 00:24:37,354\n而且甚至對於高度爭議案件更容易發生糾紛我不是要譴責那位警察官我只是說請次長注意一下尤其是高度爭議案件政治案件對於程序的要求要求警察官要更嚴謹警察官千萬不能為了辦案為了辦出一個案子升遷不要說辦出案子升遷為了辦出一個案子有成就感而去就程序部分\n\n67\n00:24:38,876 --> 00:25:03,324\n亂做我覺得這是不對的好不好就是次長這部分要麻煩你們你們一定要做到那如果是去詢問詢問有沒有全程錄音錄影這個也必須要求全國的檢察官一定要做到我今天給你們看不好意思最後30秒一個Trace上面的檢察官自己寫的他認為就訊這個就是日常今天為什麼會發生這種事情就是因為有\n\n68\n00:25:04,364 --> 00:25:31,091\n由檢察官濫用就訊的這個作為然後導致今天全國的檢察官包括司法受到人民的不信任所以法務部真的要出來處理這件事情你不能放任檢察官在做任何一個案子的偵查我不去論他有沒有政治目的我都不去論而是檢察官你在辦案成功雖然會有成就感但你不能為了成就感而去侵害被告的基本人權\n\n69\n00:25:32,475 --> 00:25:41,980\n這是完全不對的那這個部分再麻煩這個是罪上面其他檢察官寫的那更不要講檢察官論壇裡面有非常多檢察官批評這件事不好意思耽誤大家時間謝謝次長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1690\t25918\t請問主席 我想會議詢問一下就是因為剛剛有一點我剛剛主持會議的時候有一點小衝突因為主要就是說我想要確認一下我們委員會那委員在質詢的時間內如果問的問題跟本日的議程不一樣那到底可以還是不可以因為之前吳世耀委員他其實曾經就委員在\n26798\t47632\t他的時間內然後詢問官員跟今日的議程不一樣的題目他當時一直抗議那因為今天他問的東西也跟今日的議程完全不一樣所以我剛剛只是要就這個會議程序的部分我想說做一個確認那我不知道主席這部分主席有什麼想法\n48627\t70892\t我想依照過去不管是民進黨委員或是國民黨的委員在主持私委會的相關會議的時候其實主席都會尊重委員在時間內的發言通常不會去干預委員在質詢的時間裡面的任何的發言內容\n71462\t96453\t好 謝謝 因為剛剛喔因為剛剛我其實我是公正的在主持會議那我認為這個是一個會議的這個怎麼進行的問題這其實跟所謂的政治鬥那個惡鬥或者是什麼並沒有關聯性我只是要確認一下而且確認之後就是適用於每一個委員而不是特定委員可以 特定委員不行所以我想我剛剛指這個那我不知道為什麼剛剛有人會\n98494\t123409\t這麼大發脾氣然後連那個髒話都罵出來那我也在這邊補充一下就是說罵人家垃圾在實務的判決是構成公然無路我想說這可能跟其他委員提醒一下不是說罵人垃圾就沒事情罵人垃圾其實是構成公然無路尤其在國會殿堂裡面身為一個國家的中央級的民意代表在那邊大吼大叫拍桌子罵髒話其實\n125664\t145114\t這個作為就是讓人家去取笑說到底我們國會議員的水準在什麼地方那當然當然社會本來對國會議員的期待這段時間可能大家也都心裡有數啦但是我還是希望說我至少我會這樣要求我自己我就是在國會開會的時候委員會開會的時候其實\n148755\t168095\t除了最基本的要求自己要言之有物之外也要懂得控制情緒尊重別人更不可以說在那邊還罵別人在法律上面實務上面已經判決非常多的判決認定這個會構成公然污辱的事情那如果說可以隨隨便便就這樣的話那台灣\n169396\t176701\t國會其實會讓世界看笑話這我想說這是我剛剛的會議詢問那我就確認一下在我們的詢問的時間內其實我們就是尊重委員的發言好 謝謝我想就是剛剛這個莊瑞雄委員他說他的不當發言其實這個讓人家看笑話這個整個國民黨對不起我剛剛不是莊瑞雄委員對不起我剛剛說錯了剛剛是審發會委員\n196294\t216384\t他的不當發言是讓這個社會在看笑話立法委員作為社會的一個表率我覺得應該是在任何的場合裡面都要謹慎發言不可以有任何的暴力或是辱罵的這樣的一個行為那麼像我們昨天在立法院的院會裡面也是看到這柯建民總召\n217365\t234167\t這個暴力這個拿棍子去敲桌子然後甚至還波及到還傷害到了這個徐曉新委員其實這些都是非常不當的言行那我們希望我們未來在司法委會的會議的場合裡面呢都能夠大家能夠尊重\n235288\t258437\t是 我也跟主席及在座的各位委員還有各位報告就像民進黨最喜歡說最近對於那個中配那個雅雅案一直說言論自由不是毫無限制這個邏輯一樣言論免責權也不是毫無限制你不能動不動對人家罵髒話像剛罵我垃圾我是覺得我在那邊說我不會去提告啦因為\n259895\t275381\t因為你自己是不是個垃圾自己心裡很清楚那你罵別人垃圾到底誰是垃圾我想說就算了我就我不會去提告好謝謝好那我們麻煩司法院法務部以及刑事局主委好是謝謝\n284605\t295820\t好 謝謝三位我想說在座我以前的長官還有以前一起合作辦過很多案子的副局長先說很高興在這邊能夠看到各位\n298021\t324236\t那謝謝我先請教一個問題我想說我們今天討論的主題是對於這個草案就是有關逮捕到案的犯罪嫌疑人我們要對他進行非侵入式的採尿那這個需要得到檢察官同意讓檢察官來保留和發許可書但是呢我看到一個問題就是我們實務上面有非常多的案子都必須對這個被告進行採尿的這個動作像毒販或是像\n324756\t340707\t甚至其他的刑案有時候當事人在抗辯他可能是吸毒後所為那他在量刑上面可能會有所不一樣這個時候採尿都變成一個很重要的證據我想三位都是食物界所以非常的能夠理解但是呢這次司法院跟\n341488\t363443\t行政院的版本最大的不同就是檢察官許可書就是檢察官保留的這個檢察官許可書要就是說另外要不要送交執行機關還有那個受採尿人有沒有需要送達我想先請教一下司法院為何司法院在草案裡面有提到要送交執行機關以及受採取人\n366906\t384938\t那這個部分剛才在報告中有說到就是說我們現在規定的這個送交呢它是採在刑事訴訟法相同的這些規定的那個法例像是34條之一限制辯護人還有羈押被告接見通信的這個限制書\n385999\t400396\t那還有這103條執行羈押的押票這我們事務上最常做的就是這個押票那還有203條之二的執行留置鑑定留置的這個鑑定留置票你們目的是什麼 要送達的目的是什麼\n402741\t423142\t因為這是讓受採取人呢他可以真正的就是說收到這一份那個書那從這邊來開始就是作為那個我我想我聽懂的話就是當事人起算救濟時間嘛是明確的救濟時間我想說司法院是這個理由但是呢我想我請教一下副局長\n424303\t448395\t實務上面這個有沒有辦法執行因為法務部跟我看了一下行政院跟市長院的版本不一樣是差在這個地方那警察在執行上面有沒有困難如果說每一份材料書都要送達執行機關跟當事人跟委員報告警察執行不是說有困難在很多包括我們的搜索扣押包括鑑定許可書事實上我們去都是出事\n448955\t468162\t我們這些搜索票或是許可書讓他確認這樣的程序那我覺得警方在執行的時候如果能夠有一致的標準對於警察基層尤其是派出所的員警如果在執行這方面的話比較不會混淆而且這個現在已經限縮到他已經是\n468842\t489150\t逮捕到案的人而且有相當理由等等這些我想對於整個自由權的侵犯會比較輕微已經比較輕微了這跟這個壓票啦或怎麼樣我相信他的侵害權是不太一樣那我想就是說我先跟三位報告一下我自己的實務經驗在第一線因為我為錢帶隊搜索非常多次\n491011\t519870\t就很多人知道我以前曾經戴瑞搜索被開過槍那還好沒打到我我要講的是第一線執行跟司法院在辦公室想的其實是有一個差距那當然當事人是不是可以提醒救濟這起算時間點我們也要予以重視但是呢是不是檢察官其實他告知要採尿其實這個時間點就可以起算了而不需要說明確要收到那個許可書不以收到許可書那個時間點\n521532\t541967\t他才能夠保障他的救濟的起算時間其實檢察官做這個處分的時候他當時聽到了這個也是算是起算這不是對當事人也很有保障嗎所以這個是我提出來因為司法院的意思是說這個是要確認當事人救濟的時間點但是在食物運作上面我自己的食物經驗其實\n543228\t568785\t你要另外再要求警察機關再去做一個這個動作可能是多此一舉因為對於這個處分告訴當事人這個時間點是可以確定的譬如說筆錄可以確定譬如說現場拍攝的影片可以確定所以有沒有必要一定要做這個送達這會增加很多行政成本增加很多郵遞的費用以及增加\n569545\t595439\t那個當事人將來的一些就是他可能就醫上面一些問題我覺得不一定說一定是好的所以這個部分可能再麻煩司法院跟法務部這邊能夠溝通市長我補充一點就是說這個送交這個要給執行機關跟受採尿的人的話這個要件一旦放進去可是跟前面的205之一條件是不一樣第一線的警察如果弄混的時候那將來這一個\n597526\t610944\t沒有送交簽名這個動作沒有送交這個動作會直接影響到證據能力的問題這個也是我們擔心的地方弄混了以後反而後面的非侵入性的材料會被懷疑有證據能力的問題這個也是我們擔心的\n612746\t629049\t所以我自己在看這個的時候我也會覺得說這個在實務上面反而會困擾自己所以說思考院就這個部分可不可以再思考一下看草案是不是一定要放入這個因為這在第一線執行上面將來會有一些麻煩發生因為我自己看完之後我也覺得\n630030\t650825\t這個沒有必要 而且對當事人的保障其實起算時間已經很明確啦就檢察官的處分時間點啦所以真的有需要再多一個送達來去保障嗎我想說刑事案件的偵辦同時要維護社會公義以及被告的當事人的程序正義那這兩個權衡之下我是建議可以再討論這個問題\n653863\t677788\t跟委員報告 司法院這部分是開放的就是我們會多聽從那個大家的意見更何況我們今天他是對於非侵入式的採尿如果侵入式當然我們可能意見就會比較多非侵入式的這個採尿其實而且是當事人自己排尿的有沒有必要程序保障到會讓第一線的執行機關不好執行我想是這個我們可以\n678368\t700691\t我們今天任何一個法律的立出來是要對國家社會有貢獻這才有意義而不是無限上綱的那個權力保障這是我個人的前見好那我在這部分我想麻煩法務部也能夠一個禮拜內給我一個演繹就是有關這個部分好謝謝法務部那我再請教一下司法院那司法院這軍事審判那個\n702032\t713078\t最近一直在吵這軍審判的問題我想請問一下今天排審的法案之所以要修法我們也是為了提升正當法律程序對不對今天的議案\n714755\t730320\t沒問題嘛那當人民接受司法機關偵查審判的時候其實我想對他的程序保障最重要的最重要就是我們要讓他在一個正當程序保障之下來接受訴訟來進行訴訟這個很重要嘛那所以\n735239\t757430\t我們先告訴國人一件事情今天軍人犯罪的話那是不是他還是實體法部分適用軍事審判法程序上面改用刑事訴訟法現在是這樣對不對那你知不知道當初廢除我們暫停軍事審判法適用的原因是什麼你知道嗎\n760298\t778004\t這個部分是在那個民國102年的時候呢可能就是國人就是大家對於就是說軍事審判的部分對於那個正當程序的要求是不是能夠那個達到是這個部分大家有一些檢討對就是因為當時我們覺得我們我國的軍事審判他的程序保障的嚴謹度\n779344\t797310\t是低於刑訴送法我想這個是沒有爭議的那這個 也就是這個原因所以當年民進黨以及當年非常多的國人他認為說我們軍審辦法先暫停適用非暫時我們就是讓他受到普通法院的那個程序保障\n797930\t813459\t也就是因為這個原因所以有非常多的案子就是我記得好像是反滲透法類的啦還是這類的案子好像現在都沒有一個確定判決出來很久了嘛所以我認為就是司法審判\n814580\t834856\t普通法院的司法審判其實他的要求嚴謹度是很高所以他不會像軍事審判很快就判出來了那因為他的嚴謹度要求很高其實對當事人是一個保障啦那我個人是覺得說這些軍人也是大家的小孩而且大部分的軍人都是在20歲上下而已也是國人的小孩啊\n835316\t853232\t那我們讓他受到比較完整的程序保障到底錯在哪裡為什麼我們要走回頭路這是我個人的意見那當然我知道您現在的位置也不方便就這個表達意見所以我想說我的認為就是為什麼我們要從一個保障嚴謹的\n855054\t882446\t司法程序要走回保障不夠嚴謹的司法程序更何況當年改的就是強力主張的就是現在的執政黨 民進黨而且現在又是民進黨希望把它改回軍事審判這個我想也要讓國人知道這個是蠻莫名其妙的而且對國家到底它的好處在哪裡其實我也想不通啦那我再請教一下那現在法院裡面是不是有設那個國安軍事專業案件的專股\n884346\t913043\t有設專股或是專庭每個法院都有設嗎每個法院都有設好那我現在還是一個邏輯就是說目前有立法委員批評說這些法官不夠專業那我想如果我是不懂說一輩子從事審理審判案件的法官為什麼對於審理案件是不專業我想最多我們能夠說法官比較不專業的地方可能是對於軍中的文化比較不熟悉但是用這個理由去批評他不夠專業\n915426\t924622\t我想說對於國安的一些東西比較不熟悉用這個去批評他不夠專業我想這個邏輯也沒有什麼道理啦所以我不太認同說\n926894\t954626\t有些委員的這個說法啦那更何況我覺得普通法院的審判的獨立性是遠高於軍事法院啦這個我想也沒有國人或是任何一個政治人物敢否認這個道理我想讓國家受到司法官訓練所法官學院出來的這些專業的法官檢察官追溯以及審判這個是保障一個國人最大的程序保障這個是最大的程序保障我想這個才對而不是\n955766\t982926\t去做一些很奇怪的調整另外就是說 如果在喊說軍人受到滲透那我的一個感覺就是說奇怪 阿瑪英九時代為什麼沒有軍人受滲透民進黨執政九年就軍隊都被滲透那你這個執政黨在搞什麼鬼為什麼九年了被滲透的這麼嚴重那就算我們要去處罰這些被滲透的軍人我們要重判該修的也是陸海工軍刑法而不是程序法的軍事審判法\n983707\t989493\t邏輯也完全錯誤但是現在的政府就會誤導人民一直亂扯亂鬼扯我就像剛剛那個次長您回答吳思堯的問題一樣\n993735\t1016554\t你們講說我們認為憲判八有一個東西一致覺得需要公投他就跟你扯說我們有沒有廢死我一致覺得這個問題我有意見跟我國有廢死有什麼關係第二個他說我們有執行一個死刑啊那怎麼會叫我國廢住死刑這個更是腦殘這是法盲的人講的話不好意思我剛那句話講錯這是法盲的人講的話因為\n1020957\t1044714\t執行死刑是對於確定判決去執行死刑能不能下判決是根本還沒有確定判決一審二審三審那個叫做判決所以有沒有一致覺是在法官審理案件的時候能不能夠下這樣的判決這個跟判決確定的案子執行死刑這兩回事嘛怎麼會講說我國有執行一個死刑所以我國沒有廢除死刑\n1045254\t1070168\t這在法律上面的邏輯是不對所以他剛剛說邏輯他剛剛一直說這個邏輯怎麼樣我想說應該不是說邏輯有瑕疵的問題而是講話的人自己邏輯混亂他自己邏輯搞不清楚事實上這兩個東西是完全不同我想各位在場一定聽得懂我在講什麼那有的委員聽不懂就算了我已經我過去一年已經很努力但是我發現努力是對某些人是沒有效果的\n1070885\t1095617\t所以次長剛剛你回答那個東西我在那邊聽我覺得這兩個東西無關啦所以我不這麼認同啦那因為廢除死刑與否我們從來沒有說死刑被宣告違憲或廢除我們是對於所謂的判決中加以自決這個東西我們希望聽取人民的觀念但是有一些無良的政客他們就喜歡帶風向一直騙人民說我國死刑沒有廢除啊你在公投什麼\n1096357\t1109851\t然後就亂扯而對於一個沒有存在的東西進行公投我覺得這個都在騙人民啦這是現在這些政客們他們的每天的工作目的就是一直在騙人民但我對我自己的要求是不說謊講實話\n1111613\t1136029\t那今天這個東西即使我講出來對自己不利 我們還是得說實話我不會像有些政客 只為了達到他某些目的 然後就去那邊胡說八道就像他說 他們對外說 昨天晚上開會叫做突襲拜託民眾黨昨天白天就已經送出要會議要延長到晚上12點然後如果是被突襲的話 還會有幾個人拿著那個牌子在那邊說會議無效嗎還有時間去準備那個牌子 事實上在昨天在吃\n1136869\t1162671\t晚餐便當的時候他們都站一排在那裡準備要衝進來我們也都看到只是我不想跟這些每天造謠說謊的政客混在一起如果這些造謠說謊政客就是我國的中央民意代表的話那其實是中華民國的悲哀因為你中央民意代表每天就是說謊從一路以來從不管是這次談論公投不管是預算的審查等等的外面就是鬼扯蛋胡說八道\n1163846\t1190100\t然後連總統各部會首長都在騙人這個真是難以想像啦因為我以前我以前以為是行政機關最多做到美化數據至少說出來不會是說謊但是會到現在譬如說洪正漢部長說那個什麼金貼育兒金貼被刪光結果後來發現一毛都沒有刪然後說不是我是口誤這個社會充斥的這種謊言那這國家該怎麼辦\n1192939\t1208650\t這我有感覺 不好意思 回到剛剛我說的就是有關軍事審判這個部分 我還是必須這樣講因為這些軍人都是我們的小孩那這是我們的小孩 也是我們的國人你今天讓他受到更完整的\n1209591\t1230230\t成績保障錯在哪裡那不要什麼東西都為了選票把意識形態拉進來其實那個是對不起我們的子子孫孫那最後一個小東西行事局跟司導業先回去最後一個 不好意思耽誤大家時間就是\n1231712\t1239332\t次長 你也是檢察官出身 我也是檢察官出身嘛那次長 以前就是我們的長官 我們都非常的尊重 尊敬次長\n1241300\t1268094\t這個北檢這次3月12號的北檢新聞稿今年3月12號跟10月22號談論有關就是一位檢察官到醫院就訓審訊被告這件事情那我想請教一下那第一個我前提先說這個案子已經起訴法院審理中所以法務部現在的檢察官現在不是承辦的人所以不要再像上一次開會的時候有\n1270680\t1285283\t某幾個立委在那邊喊說干涉個案怎麼可以詢問個案一個已經起訴的案件不是法務部現在在懲辦中了那跟法務部就這個案子的程序瑕疵去討論通案該怎麼解決\n1286638\t1303207\t不這麼做才是對不起立法委員這個身份怎麼會在那邊喊說干預個案在那邊大呼小叫我覺得這個水準也很不夠也是一個法盲所以我這邊請教一下所以當天這個林姓檢察官去現場到底是訊問還是去視察那過去過去\n1307967\t1323934\t五年內到底有多少檢察官是去視察那個視察醫院我想請教一下次長113年11月11號這一次是有詢問也有做筆錄那113年10月14號這一次是視察那兩次呢辯護人都在場\n1335357\t1351746\t沒有 辯護人在場我沒有意見啦對那我的意思是說好 那以11號這次來說好了那你還沒有回答我第二個問題請問一下過去五年全國有多少檢察官去視察醫院而且有進行視察的程序這一個數字看守什麼醫院\n1360117\t1379959\t喔 那看守所的醫院沒有不是看守所 不要跟我講看守所然後這個醫院的部分沒有對 那喔 不用說過去五年啦過去二十年啦我跟你講 我跟上報告可能我財疏血淺但我自己二十年的檢察官生涯裡面我從來沒做過 也沒聽過有同仁去\n1381443\t1408595\t醫院 正規的醫院去做視察場所的這個視察動作視察跟做筆錄完全不一樣視察是針對這個處所到底適不適合這個在押的被告他在那邊會不會受到人格人性尊嚴上面的侵害嘛所以兩個是不一樣的東西啊那你混在一起講我覺得今天之所以造成那麼大的民眾的糾紛就是這裡那這每一個糾紛都對司法傷害很重\n1409235\t1426631\t所以我想請問過去20年有人這麼做嗎醫院視察的部分沒有對 所以這就是我講的我再三講我過去20年沒有這樣的例子過那你們不要跟我們談說什麼看守所等等的那個視察那個是日常在做\n1427965\t1451414\t視察也有視察報告會帶書記官去進行視察報告都會做得很清楚會通知法院會呈報長官我想這個是該做的基本的作為所以我們這邊可以確認一件事過去20年除了這位檢察官曾經做過之外沒有全國沒有檢察官做過這個事情我問過一堆同學他們連聽都沒有聽過這樣子做所以因為這樣所以容易讓人家\n1452813\t1477354\t而且甚至對於高度爭議案件更容易發生糾紛我不是要譴責那位警察官我只是說請次長注意一下尤其是高度爭議案件政治案件對於程序的要求要求警察官要更嚴謹警察官千萬不能為了辦案為了辦出一個案子升遷不要說辦出案子升遷為了辦出一個案子有成就感而去就程序部分\n1478876\t1503324\t亂做 我覺得這是不對的好不好 就是次長這部分要麻煩你們你們一定要做到那如果是去詢問 詢問有沒有全程錄音錄影這個也必須要求全國的檢察官一定要做到我今天給你們看 不好意思最後30秒一個Trace上面的檢察官自己寫的他認為就訊這個就是日常今天為什麼會發生這種事情 就是因為有\n1504364\t1531091\t由檢察官濫用就訊的這個作為然後導致今天全國的檢察官包括司法受到人民的不信任所以法務部真的要出來處理這件事情你不能放任檢察官在做任何一個案子的偵查我不去論他有沒有政治目的我都不去論而是檢察官你在辦案成功雖然會有成就感但你不能為了成就感而去侵害被告的基本人權\n1532475\t1541980\t這是完全不對的那這個部分再麻煩這個是罪上面其他檢察官寫的那更不要講檢察官論壇裡面有非常多檢察官批評這件事不好意思耽誤大家時間 謝謝次長\n","txt":"請問主席 我想會議詢問一下就是因為剛剛有一點我剛剛主持會議的時候有一點小衝突因為主要就是說我想要確認一下我們委員會那委員在質詢的時間內如果問的問題跟本日的議程不一樣那到底可以還是不可以因為之前吳世耀委員他其實曾經就委員在\n他的時間內然後詢問官員跟今日的議程不一樣的題目他當時一直抗議那因為今天他問的東西也跟今日的議程完全不一樣所以我剛剛只是要就這個會議程序的部分我想說做一個確認那我不知道主席這部分主席有什麼想法\n我想依照過去不管是民進黨委員或是國民黨的委員在主持私委會的相關會議的時候其實主席都會尊重委員在時間內的發言通常不會去干預委員在質詢的時間裡面的任何的發言內容\n好 謝謝 因為剛剛喔因為剛剛我其實我是公正的在主持會議那我認為這個是一個會議的這個怎麼進行的問題這其實跟所謂的政治鬥那個惡鬥或者是什麼並沒有關聯性我只是要確認一下而且確認之後就是適用於每一個委員而不是特定委員可以 特定委員不行所以我想我剛剛指這個那我不知道為什麼剛剛有人會\n這麼大發脾氣然後連那個髒話都罵出來那我也在這邊補充一下就是說罵人家垃圾在實務的判決是構成公然無路我想說這可能跟其他委員提醒一下不是說罵人垃圾就沒事情罵人垃圾其實是構成公然無路尤其在國會殿堂裡面身為一個國家的中央級的民意代表在那邊大吼大叫拍桌子罵髒話其實\n這個作為就是讓人家去取笑說到底我們國會議員的水準在什麼地方那當然當然社會本來對國會議員的期待這段時間可能大家也都心裡有數啦但是我還是希望說我至少我會這樣要求我自己我就是在國會開會的時候委員會開會的時候其實\n除了最基本的要求自己要言之有物之外也要懂得控制情緒尊重別人更不可以說在那邊還罵別人在法律上面實務上面已經判決非常多的判決認定這個會構成公然污辱的事情那如果說可以隨隨便便就這樣的話那台灣\n國會其實會讓世界看笑話這我想說這是我剛剛的會議詢問那我就確認一下在我們的詢問的時間內其實我們就是尊重委員的發言好 謝謝我想就是剛剛這個莊瑞雄委員他說他的不當發言其實這個讓人家看笑話這個整個國民黨對不起我剛剛不是莊瑞雄委員對不起我剛剛說錯了剛剛是審發會委員\n他的不當發言是讓這個社會在看笑話立法委員作為社會的一個表率我覺得應該是在任何的場合裡面都要謹慎發言不可以有任何的暴力或是辱罵的這樣的一個行為那麼像我們昨天在立法院的院會裡面也是看到這柯建民總召\n這個暴力這個拿棍子去敲桌子然後甚至還波及到還傷害到了這個徐曉新委員其實這些都是非常不當的言行那我們希望我們未來在司法委會的會議的場合裡面呢都能夠大家能夠尊重\n是 我也跟主席及在座的各位委員還有各位報告就像民進黨最喜歡說最近對於那個中配那個雅雅案一直說言論自由不是毫無限制這個邏輯一樣言論免責權也不是毫無限制你不能動不動對人家罵髒話像剛罵我垃圾我是覺得我在那邊說我不會去提告啦因為\n因為你自己是不是個垃圾自己心裡很清楚那你罵別人垃圾到底誰是垃圾我想說就算了我就我不會去提告好謝謝好那我們麻煩司法院法務部以及刑事局主委好是謝謝\n好 謝謝三位我想說在座我以前的長官還有以前一起合作辦過很多案子的副局長先說很高興在這邊能夠看到各位\n那謝謝我先請教一個問題我想說我們今天討論的主題是對於這個草案就是有關逮捕到案的犯罪嫌疑人我們要對他進行非侵入式的採尿那這個需要得到檢察官同意讓檢察官來保留和發許可書但是呢我看到一個問題就是我們實務上面有非常多的案子都必須對這個被告進行採尿的這個動作像毒販或是像\n甚至其他的刑案有時候當事人在抗辯他可能是吸毒後所為那他在量刑上面可能會有所不一樣這個時候採尿都變成一個很重要的證據我想三位都是食物界所以非常的能夠理解但是呢這次司法院跟\n行政院的版本最大的不同就是檢察官許可書就是檢察官保留的這個檢察官許可書要就是說另外要不要送交執行機關還有那個受採尿人有沒有需要送達我想先請教一下司法院為何司法院在草案裡面有提到要送交執行機關以及受採取人\n那這個部分剛才在報告中有說到就是說我們現在規定的這個送交呢它是採在刑事訴訟法相同的這些規定的那個法例像是34條之一限制辯護人還有羈押被告接見通信的這個限制書\n那還有這103條執行羈押的押票這我們事務上最常做的就是這個押票那還有203條之二的執行留置鑑定留置的這個鑑定留置票你們目的是什麼 要送達的目的是什麼\n因為這是讓受採取人呢他可以真正的就是說收到這一份那個書那從這邊來開始就是作為那個我我想我聽懂的話就是當事人起算救濟時間嘛是明確的救濟時間我想說司法院是這個理由但是呢我想我請教一下副局長\n實務上面這個有沒有辦法執行因為法務部跟我看了一下行政院跟市長院的版本不一樣是差在這個地方那警察在執行上面有沒有困難如果說每一份材料書都要送達執行機關跟當事人跟委員報告警察執行不是說有困難在很多包括我們的搜索扣押包括鑑定許可書事實上我們去都是出事\n我們這些搜索票或是許可書讓他確認這樣的程序那我覺得警方在執行的時候如果能夠有一致的標準對於警察基層尤其是派出所的員警如果在執行這方面的話比較不會混淆而且這個現在已經限縮到他已經是\n逮捕到案的人而且有相當理由等等這些我想對於整個自由權的侵犯會比較輕微已經比較輕微了這跟這個壓票啦或怎麼樣我相信他的侵害權是不太一樣那我想就是說我先跟三位報告一下我自己的實務經驗在第一線因為我為錢帶隊搜索非常多次\n就很多人知道我以前曾經戴瑞搜索被開過槍那還好沒打到我我要講的是第一線執行跟司法院在辦公室想的其實是有一個差距那當然當事人是不是可以提醒救濟這起算時間點我們也要予以重視但是呢是不是檢察官其實他告知要採尿其實這個時間點就可以起算了而不需要說明確要收到那個許可書不以收到許可書那個時間點\n他才能夠保障他的救濟的起算時間其實檢察官做這個處分的時候他當時聽到了這個也是算是起算這不是對當事人也很有保障嗎所以這個是我提出來因為司法院的意思是說這個是要確認當事人救濟的時間點但是在食物運作上面我自己的食物經驗其實\n你要另外再要求警察機關再去做一個這個動作可能是多此一舉因為對於這個處分告訴當事人這個時間點是可以確定的譬如說筆錄可以確定譬如說現場拍攝的影片可以確定所以有沒有必要一定要做這個送達這會增加很多行政成本增加很多郵遞的費用以及增加\n那個當事人將來的一些就是他可能就醫上面一些問題我覺得不一定說一定是好的所以這個部分可能再麻煩司法院跟法務部這邊能夠溝通市長我補充一點就是說這個送交這個要給執行機關跟受採尿的人的話這個要件一旦放進去可是跟前面的205之一條件是不一樣第一線的警察如果弄混的時候那將來這一個\n沒有送交簽名這個動作沒有送交這個動作會直接影響到證據能力的問題這個也是我們擔心的地方弄混了以後反而後面的非侵入性的材料會被懷疑有證據能力的問題這個也是我們擔心的\n所以我自己在看這個的時候我也會覺得說這個在實務上面反而會困擾自己所以說思考院就這個部分可不可以再思考一下看草案是不是一定要放入這個因為這在第一線執行上面將來會有一些麻煩發生因為我自己看完之後我也覺得\n這個沒有必要 而且對當事人的保障其實起算時間已經很明確啦就檢察官的處分時間點啦所以真的有需要再多一個送達來去保障嗎我想說刑事案件的偵辦同時要維護社會公義以及被告的當事人的程序正義那這兩個權衡之下我是建議可以再討論這個問題\n跟委員報告 司法院這部分是開放的就是我們會多聽從那個大家的意見更何況我們今天他是對於非侵入式的採尿如果侵入式當然我們可能意見就會比較多非侵入式的這個採尿其實而且是當事人自己排尿的有沒有必要程序保障到會讓第一線的執行機關不好執行我想是這個我們可以\n我們今天任何一個法律的立出來是要對國家社會有貢獻這才有意義而不是無限上綱的那個權力保障這是我個人的前見好那我在這部分我想麻煩法務部也能夠一個禮拜內給我一個演繹就是有關這個部分好謝謝法務部那我再請教一下司法院那司法院這軍事審判那個\n最近一直在吵這軍審判的問題我想請問一下今天排審的法案之所以要修法我們也是為了提升正當法律程序對不對今天的議案\n沒問題嘛那當人民接受司法機關偵查審判的時候其實我想對他的程序保障最重要的最重要就是我們要讓他在一個正當程序保障之下來接受訴訟來進行訴訟這個很重要嘛那所以\n我們先告訴國人一件事情今天軍人犯罪的話那是不是他還是實體法部分適用軍事審判法程序上面改用刑事訴訟法現在是這樣對不對那你知不知道當初廢除我們暫停軍事審判法適用的原因是什麼你知道嗎\n這個部分是在那個民國102年的時候呢可能就是國人就是大家對於就是說軍事審判的部分對於那個正當程序的要求是不是能夠那個達到是這個部分大家有一些檢討對就是因為當時我們覺得我們我國的軍事審判他的程序保障的嚴謹度\n是低於刑訴送法我想這個是沒有爭議的那這個 也就是這個原因所以當年民進黨以及當年非常多的國人他認為說我們軍審辦法先暫停適用非暫時我們就是讓他受到普通法院的那個程序保障\n也就是因為這個原因所以有非常多的案子就是我記得好像是反滲透法類的啦還是這類的案子好像現在都沒有一個確定判決出來很久了嘛所以我認為就是司法審判\n普通法院的司法審判其實他的要求嚴謹度是很高所以他不會像軍事審判很快就判出來了那因為他的嚴謹度要求很高其實對當事人是一個保障啦那我個人是覺得說這些軍人也是大家的小孩而且大部分的軍人都是在20歲上下而已也是國人的小孩啊\n那我們讓他受到比較完整的程序保障到底錯在哪裡為什麼我們要走回頭路這是我個人的意見那當然我知道您現在的位置也不方便就這個表達意見所以我想說我的認為就是為什麼我們要從一個保障嚴謹的\n司法程序要走回保障不夠嚴謹的司法程序更何況當年改的就是強力主張的就是現在的執政黨 民進黨而且現在又是民進黨希望把它改回軍事審判這個我想也要讓國人知道這個是蠻莫名其妙的而且對國家到底它的好處在哪裡其實我也想不通啦那我再請教一下那現在法院裡面是不是有設那個國安軍事專業案件的專股\n有設專股或是專庭每個法院都有設嗎每個法院都有設好那我現在還是一個邏輯就是說目前有立法委員批評說這些法官不夠專業那我想如果我是不懂說一輩子從事審理審判案件的法官為什麼對於審理案件是不專業我想最多我們能夠說法官比較不專業的地方可能是對於軍中的文化比較不熟悉但是用這個理由去批評他不夠專業\n我想說對於國安的一些東西比較不熟悉用這個去批評他不夠專業我想這個邏輯也沒有什麼道理啦所以我不太認同說\n有些委員的這個說法啦那更何況我覺得普通法院的審判的獨立性是遠高於軍事法院啦這個我想也沒有國人或是任何一個政治人物敢否認這個道理我想讓國家受到司法官訓練所法官學院出來的這些專業的法官檢察官追溯以及審判這個是保障一個國人最大的程序保障這個是最大的程序保障我想這個才對而不是\n去做一些很奇怪的調整另外就是說 如果在喊說軍人受到滲透那我的一個感覺就是說奇怪 阿瑪英九時代為什麼沒有軍人受滲透民進黨執政九年就軍隊都被滲透那你這個執政黨在搞什麼鬼為什麼九年了被滲透的這麼嚴重那就算我們要去處罰這些被滲透的軍人我們要重判該修的也是陸海工軍刑法而不是程序法的軍事審判法\n邏輯也完全錯誤但是現在的政府就會誤導人民一直亂扯亂鬼扯我就像剛剛那個次長您回答吳思堯的問題一樣\n你們講說我們認為憲判八有一個東西一致覺得需要公投他就跟你扯說我們有沒有廢死我一致覺得這個問題我有意見跟我國有廢死有什麼關係第二個他說我們有執行一個死刑啊那怎麼會叫我國廢住死刑這個更是腦殘這是法盲的人講的話不好意思我剛那句話講錯這是法盲的人講的話因為\n執行死刑是對於確定判決去執行死刑能不能下判決是根本還沒有確定判決一審二審三審那個叫做判決所以有沒有一致覺是在法官審理案件的時候能不能夠下這樣的判決這個跟判決確定的案子執行死刑這兩回事嘛怎麼會講說我國有執行一個死刑所以我國沒有廢除死刑\n這在法律上面的邏輯是不對所以他剛剛說邏輯他剛剛一直說這個邏輯怎麼樣我想說應該不是說邏輯有瑕疵的問題而是講話的人自己邏輯混亂他自己邏輯搞不清楚事實上這兩個東西是完全不同我想各位在場一定聽得懂我在講什麼那有的委員聽不懂就算了我已經我過去一年已經很努力但是我發現努力是對某些人是沒有效果的\n所以次長剛剛你回答那個東西我在那邊聽我覺得這兩個東西無關啦所以我不這麼認同啦那因為廢除死刑與否我們從來沒有說死刑被宣告違憲或廢除我們是對於所謂的判決中加以自決這個東西我們希望聽取人民的觀念但是有一些無良的政客他們就喜歡帶風向一直騙人民說我國死刑沒有廢除啊你在公投什麼\n然後就亂扯而對於一個沒有存在的東西進行公投我覺得這個都在騙人民啦這是現在這些政客們他們的每天的工作目的就是一直在騙人民但我對我自己的要求是不說謊講實話\n那今天這個東西即使我講出來對自己不利 我們還是得說實話我不會像有些政客 只為了達到他某些目的 然後就去那邊胡說八道就像他說 他們對外說 昨天晚上開會叫做突襲拜託民眾黨昨天白天就已經送出要會議要延長到晚上12點然後如果是被突襲的話 還會有幾個人拿著那個牌子在那邊說會議無效嗎還有時間去準備那個牌子 事實上在昨天在吃\n晚餐便當的時候他們都站一排在那裡準備要衝進來我們也都看到只是我不想跟這些每天造謠說謊的政客混在一起如果這些造謠說謊政客就是我國的中央民意代表的話那其實是中華民國的悲哀因為你中央民意代表每天就是說謊從一路以來從不管是這次談論公投不管是預算的審查等等的外面就是鬼扯蛋胡說八道\n然後連總統各部會首長都在騙人這個真是難以想像啦因為我以前我以前以為是行政機關最多做到美化數據至少說出來不會是說謊但是會到現在譬如說洪正漢部長說那個什麼金貼育兒金貼被刪光結果後來發現一毛都沒有刪然後說不是我是口誤這個社會充斥的這種謊言那這國家該怎麼辦\n這我有感覺 不好意思 回到剛剛我說的就是有關軍事審判這個部分 我還是必須這樣講因為這些軍人都是我們的小孩那這是我們的小孩 也是我們的國人你今天讓他受到更完整的\n成績保障錯在哪裡那不要什麼東西都為了選票把意識形態拉進來其實那個是對不起我們的子子孫孫那最後一個小東西行事局跟司導業先回去最後一個 不好意思耽誤大家時間就是\n次長 你也是檢察官出身 我也是檢察官出身嘛那次長 以前就是我們的長官 我們都非常的尊重 尊敬次長\n這個北檢這次3月12號的北檢新聞稿今年3月12號跟10月22號談論有關就是一位檢察官到醫院就訓審訊被告這件事情那我想請教一下那第一個我前提先說這個案子已經起訴法院審理中所以法務部現在的檢察官現在不是承辦的人所以不要再像上一次開會的時候有\n某幾個立委在那邊喊說干涉個案怎麼可以詢問個案一個已經起訴的案件不是法務部現在在懲辦中了那跟法務部就這個案子的程序瑕疵去討論通案該怎麼解決\n不這麼做才是對不起立法委員這個身份怎麼會在那邊喊說干預個案在那邊大呼小叫我覺得這個水準也很不夠也是一個法盲所以我這邊請教一下所以當天這個林姓檢察官去現場到底是訊問還是去視察那過去過去\n五年內到底有多少檢察官是去視察那個視察醫院我想請教一下次長113年11月11號這一次是有詢問也有做筆錄那113年10月14號這一次是視察那兩次呢辯護人都在場\n沒有 辯護人在場我沒有意見啦對那我的意思是說好 那以11號這次來說好了那你還沒有回答我第二個問題請問一下過去五年全國有多少檢察官去視察醫院而且有進行視察的程序這一個數字看守什麼醫院\n喔 那看守所的醫院沒有不是看守所 不要跟我講看守所然後這個醫院的部分沒有對 那喔 不用說過去五年啦過去二十年啦我跟你講 我跟上報告可能我財疏血淺但我自己二十年的檢察官生涯裡面我從來沒做過 也沒聽過有同仁去\n醫院 正規的醫院去做視察場所的這個視察動作視察跟做筆錄完全不一樣視察是針對這個處所到底適不適合這個在押的被告他在那邊會不會受到人格人性尊嚴上面的侵害嘛所以兩個是不一樣的東西啊那你混在一起講我覺得今天之所以造成那麼大的民眾的糾紛就是這裡那這每一個糾紛都對司法傷害很重\n所以我想請問過去20年有人這麼做嗎醫院視察的部分沒有對 所以這就是我講的我再三講我過去20年沒有這樣的例子過那你們不要跟我們談說什麼看守所等等的那個視察那個是日常在做\n視察也有視察報告會帶書記官去進行視察報告都會做得很清楚會通知法院會呈報長官我想這個是該做的基本的作為所以我們這邊可以確認一件事過去20年除了這位檢察官曾經做過之外沒有全國沒有檢察官做過這個事情我問過一堆同學他們連聽都沒有聽過這樣子做所以因為這樣所以容易讓人家\n而且甚至對於高度爭議案件更容易發生糾紛我不是要譴責那位警察官我只是說請次長注意一下尤其是高度爭議案件政治案件對於程序的要求要求警察官要更嚴謹警察官千萬不能為了辦案為了辦出一個案子升遷不要說辦出案子升遷為了辦出一個案子有成就感而去就程序部分\n亂做 我覺得這是不對的好不好 就是次長這部分要麻煩你們你們一定要做到那如果是去詢問 詢問有沒有全程錄音錄影這個也必須要求全國的檢察官一定要做到我今天給你們看 不好意思最後30秒一個Trace上面的檢察官自己寫的他認為就訊這個就是日常今天為什麼會發生這種事情 就是因為有\n由檢察官濫用就訊的這個作為然後導致今天全國的檢察官包括司法受到人民的不信任所以法務部真的要出來處理這件事情你不能放任檢察官在做任何一個案子的偵查我不去論他有沒有政治目的我都不去論而是檢察官你在辦案成功雖然會有成就感但你不能為了成就感而去侵害被告的基本人權\n這是完全不對的那這個部分再麻煩這個是罪上面其他檢察官寫的那更不要講檢察官論壇裡面有非常多檢察官批評這件事不好意思耽誤大家時間 謝謝次長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.690 --> 00:25.918\n請問主席我想會議詢問一下就是因為剛剛有一點我剛剛主持會議的時候有一點小衝突因為主要就是說我想要確認一下我們委員會那委員在質詢的時間內如果問的問題跟本日的議程不一樣那到底可以還是不可以因為之前吳世耀委員他其實曾經就委員在\n\n00:26.798 --> 00:47.632\n他的時間內然後詢問官員跟今日的議程不一樣的題目他當時一直抗議那因為今天他問的東西也跟今日的議程完全不一樣所以我剛剛只是要就這個會議程序的部分我想說做一個確認那我不知道主席這部分主席有什麼想法\n\n00:48.627 --> 01:10.892\n我想依照過去不管是民進黨委員或是國民黨的委員在主持私委會的相關會議的時候其實主席都會尊重委員在時間內的發言通常不會去干預委員在質詢的時間裡面的任何的發言內容\n\n01:11.462 --> 01:36.453\n好謝謝因為剛剛喔因為剛剛我其實我是公正的在主持會議那我認為這個是一個會議的這個怎麼進行的問題這其實跟所謂的政治鬥那個惡鬥或者是什麼並沒有關聯性我只是要確認一下而且確認之後就是適用於每一個委員而不是特定委員可以特定委員不行所以我想我剛剛指這個那我不知道為什麼剛剛有人會\n\n01:38.494 --> 02:03.409\n這麼大發脾氣然後連那個髒話都罵出來那我也在這邊補充一下就是說罵人家垃圾在實務的判決是構成公然無路我想說這可能跟其他委員提醒一下不是說罵人垃圾就沒事情罵人垃圾其實是構成公然無路尤其在國會殿堂裡面身為一個國家的中央級的民意代表在那邊大吼大叫拍桌子罵髒話其實\n\n02:05.664 --> 02:25.114\n這個作為就是讓人家去取笑說到底我們國會議員的水準在什麼地方那當然當然社會本來對國會議員的期待這段時間可能大家也都心裡有數啦但是我還是希望說我至少我會這樣要求我自己我就是在國會開會的時候委員會開會的時候其實\n\n02:28.755 --> 02:48.095\n除了最基本的要求自己要言之有物之外也要懂得控制情緒尊重別人更不可以說在那邊還罵別人在法律上面實務上面已經判決非常多的判決認定這個會構成公然污辱的事情那如果說可以隨隨便便就這樣的話那台灣\n\n02:49.396 --> 02:56.701\n國會其實會讓世界看笑話這我想說這是我剛剛的會議詢問那我就確認一下在我們的詢問的時間內其實我們就是尊重委員的發言好謝謝我想就是剛剛這個莊瑞雄委員他說他的不當發言其實這個讓人家看笑話這個整個國民黨對不起我剛剛不是莊瑞雄委員對不起我剛剛說錯了剛剛是審發會委員\n\n03:16.294 --> 03:36.384\n他的不當發言是讓這個社會在看笑話立法委員作為社會的一個表率我覺得應該是在任何的場合裡面都要謹慎發言不可以有任何的暴力或是辱罵的這樣的一個行為那麼像我們昨天在立法院的院會裡面也是看到這柯建民總召\n\n03:37.365 --> 03:54.167\n這個暴力這個拿棍子去敲桌子然後甚至還波及到還傷害到了這個徐曉新委員其實這些都是非常不當的言行那我們希望我們未來在司法委會的會議的場合裡面呢都能夠大家能夠尊重\n\n03:55.288 --> 04:18.437\n是我也跟主席及在座的各位委員還有各位報告就像民進黨最喜歡說最近對於那個中配那個雅雅案一直說言論自由不是毫無限制這個邏輯一樣言論免責權也不是毫無限制你不能動不動對人家罵髒話像剛罵我垃圾我是覺得我在那邊說我不會去提告啦因為\n\n04:19.895 --> 04:35.381\n因為你自己是不是個垃圾自己心裡很清楚那你罵別人垃圾到底誰是垃圾我想說就算了我就我不會去提告好謝謝好那我們麻煩司法院法務部以及刑事局主委好是謝謝\n\n04:44.605 --> 04:55.820\n好謝謝三位我想說在座我以前的長官還有以前一起合作辦過很多案子的副局長先說很高興在這邊能夠看到各位\n\n04:58.021 --> 05:24.236\n那謝謝我先請教一個問題我想說我們今天討論的主題是對於這個草案就是有關逮捕到案的犯罪嫌疑人我們要對他進行非侵入式的採尿那這個需要得到檢察官同意讓檢察官來保留和發許可書但是呢我看到一個問題就是我們實務上面有非常多的案子都必須對這個被告進行採尿的這個動作像毒販或是像\n\n05:24.756 --> 05:40.707\n甚至其他的刑案有時候當事人在抗辯他可能是吸毒後所為那他在量刑上面可能會有所不一樣這個時候採尿都變成一個很重要的證據我想三位都是食物界所以非常的能夠理解但是呢這次司法院跟\n\n05:41.488 --> 06:03.443\n行政院的版本最大的不同就是檢察官許可書就是檢察官保留的這個檢察官許可書要就是說另外要不要送交執行機關還有那個受採尿人有沒有需要送達我想先請教一下司法院為何司法院在草案裡面有提到要送交執行機關以及受採取人\n\n06:06.906 --> 06:24.938\n那這個部分剛才在報告中有說到就是說我們現在規定的這個送交呢它是採在刑事訴訟法相同的這些規定的那個法例像是34條之一限制辯護人還有羈押被告接見通信的這個限制書\n\n06:25.999 --> 06:40.396\n那還有這103條執行羈押的押票這我們事務上最常做的就是這個押票那還有203條之二的執行留置鑑定留置的這個鑑定留置票你們目的是什麼要送達的目的是什麼\n\n06:42.741 --> 07:03.142\n因為這是讓受採取人呢他可以真正的就是說收到這一份那個書那從這邊來開始就是作為那個我我想我聽懂的話就是當事人起算救濟時間嘛是明確的救濟時間我想說司法院是這個理由但是呢我想我請教一下副局長\n\n07:04.303 --> 07:28.395\n實務上面這個有沒有辦法執行因為法務部跟我看了一下行政院跟市長院的版本不一樣是差在這個地方那警察在執行上面有沒有困難如果說每一份材料書都要送達執行機關跟當事人跟委員報告警察執行不是說有困難在很多包括我們的搜索扣押包括鑑定許可書事實上我們去都是出事\n\n07:28.955 --> 07:48.162\n我們這些搜索票或是許可書讓他確認這樣的程序那我覺得警方在執行的時候如果能夠有一致的標準對於警察基層尤其是派出所的員警如果在執行這方面的話比較不會混淆而且這個現在已經限縮到他已經是\n\n07:48.842 --> 08:09.150\n逮捕到案的人而且有相當理由等等這些我想對於整個自由權的侵犯會比較輕微已經比較輕微了這跟這個壓票啦或怎麼樣我相信他的侵害權是不太一樣那我想就是說我先跟三位報告一下我自己的實務經驗在第一線因為我為錢帶隊搜索非常多次\n\n08:11.011 --> 08:39.870\n就很多人知道我以前曾經戴瑞搜索被開過槍那還好沒打到我我要講的是第一線執行跟司法院在辦公室想的其實是有一個差距那當然當事人是不是可以提醒救濟這起算時間點我們也要予以重視但是呢是不是檢察官其實他告知要採尿其實這個時間點就可以起算了而不需要說明確要收到那個許可書不以收到許可書那個時間點\n\n08:41.532 --> 09:01.967\n他才能夠保障他的救濟的起算時間其實檢察官做這個處分的時候他當時聽到了這個也是算是起算這不是對當事人也很有保障嗎所以這個是我提出來因為司法院的意思是說這個是要確認當事人救濟的時間點但是在食物運作上面我自己的食物經驗其實\n\n09:03.228 --> 09:28.785\n你要另外再要求警察機關再去做一個這個動作可能是多此一舉因為對於這個處分告訴當事人這個時間點是可以確定的譬如說筆錄可以確定譬如說現場拍攝的影片可以確定所以有沒有必要一定要做這個送達這會增加很多行政成本增加很多郵遞的費用以及增加\n\n09:29.545 --> 09:55.439\n那個當事人將來的一些就是他可能就醫上面一些問題我覺得不一定說一定是好的所以這個部分可能再麻煩司法院跟法務部這邊能夠溝通市長我補充一點就是說這個送交這個要給執行機關跟受採尿的人的話這個要件一旦放進去可是跟前面的205之一條件是不一樣第一線的警察如果弄混的時候那將來這一個\n\n09:57.526 --> 10:10.944\n沒有送交簽名這個動作沒有送交這個動作會直接影響到證據能力的問題這個也是我們擔心的地方弄混了以後反而後面的非侵入性的材料會被懷疑有證據能力的問題這個也是我們擔心的\n\n10:12.746 --> 10:29.049\n所以我自己在看這個的時候我也會覺得說這個在實務上面反而會困擾自己所以說思考院就這個部分可不可以再思考一下看草案是不是一定要放入這個因為這在第一線執行上面將來會有一些麻煩發生因為我自己看完之後我也覺得\n\n10:30.030 --> 10:50.825\n這個沒有必要而且對當事人的保障其實起算時間已經很明確啦就檢察官的處分時間點啦所以真的有需要再多一個送達來去保障嗎我想說刑事案件的偵辦同時要維護社會公義以及被告的當事人的程序正義那這兩個權衡之下我是建議可以再討論這個問題\n\n10:53.863 --> 11:17.788\n跟委員報告司法院這部分是開放的就是我們會多聽從那個大家的意見更何況我們今天他是對於非侵入式的採尿如果侵入式當然我們可能意見就會比較多非侵入式的這個採尿其實而且是當事人自己排尿的有沒有必要程序保障到會讓第一線的執行機關不好執行我想是這個我們可以\n\n11:18.368 --> 11:40.691\n我們今天任何一個法律的立出來是要對國家社會有貢獻這才有意義而不是無限上綱的那個權力保障這是我個人的前見好那我在這部分我想麻煩法務部也能夠一個禮拜內給我一個演繹就是有關這個部分好謝謝法務部那我再請教一下司法院那司法院這軍事審判那個\n\n11:42.032 --> 11:53.078\n最近一直在吵這軍審判的問題我想請問一下今天排審的法案之所以要修法我們也是為了提升正當法律程序對不對今天的議案\n\n11:54.755 --> 12:10.320\n沒問題嘛那當人民接受司法機關偵查審判的時候其實我想對他的程序保障最重要的最重要就是我們要讓他在一個正當程序保障之下來接受訴訟來進行訴訟這個很重要嘛那所以\n\n12:15.239 --> 12:37.430\n我們先告訴國人一件事情今天軍人犯罪的話那是不是他還是實體法部分適用軍事審判法程序上面改用刑事訴訟法現在是這樣對不對那你知不知道當初廢除我們暫停軍事審判法適用的原因是什麼你知道嗎\n\n12:40.298 --> 12:58.004\n這個部分是在那個民國102年的時候呢可能就是國人就是大家對於就是說軍事審判的部分對於那個正當程序的要求是不是能夠那個達到是這個部分大家有一些檢討對就是因為當時我們覺得我們我國的軍事審判他的程序保障的嚴謹度\n\n12:59.344 --> 13:17.310\n是低於刑訴送法我想這個是沒有爭議的那這個也就是這個原因所以當年民進黨以及當年非常多的國人他認為說我們軍審辦法先暫停適用非暫時我們就是讓他受到普通法院的那個程序保障\n\n13:17.930 --> 13:33.459\n也就是因為這個原因所以有非常多的案子就是我記得好像是反滲透法類的啦還是這類的案子好像現在都沒有一個確定判決出來很久了嘛所以我認為就是司法審判\n\n13:34.580 --> 13:54.856\n普通法院的司法審判其實他的要求嚴謹度是很高所以他不會像軍事審判很快就判出來了那因為他的嚴謹度要求很高其實對當事人是一個保障啦那我個人是覺得說這些軍人也是大家的小孩而且大部分的軍人都是在20歲上下而已也是國人的小孩啊\n\n13:55.316 --> 14:13.232\n那我們讓他受到比較完整的程序保障到底錯在哪裡為什麼我們要走回頭路這是我個人的意見那當然我知道您現在的位置也不方便就這個表達意見所以我想說我的認為就是為什麼我們要從一個保障嚴謹的\n\n14:15.054 --> 14:42.446\n司法程序要走回保障不夠嚴謹的司法程序更何況當年改的就是強力主張的就是現在的執政黨民進黨而且現在又是民進黨希望把它改回軍事審判這個我想也要讓國人知道這個是蠻莫名其妙的而且對國家到底它的好處在哪裡其實我也想不通啦那我再請教一下那現在法院裡面是不是有設那個國安軍事專業案件的專股\n\n14:44.346 --> 15:13.043\n有設專股或是專庭每個法院都有設嗎每個法院都有設好那我現在還是一個邏輯就是說目前有立法委員批評說這些法官不夠專業那我想如果我是不懂說一輩子從事審理審判案件的法官為什麼對於審理案件是不專業我想最多我們能夠說法官比較不專業的地方可能是對於軍中的文化比較不熟悉但是用這個理由去批評他不夠專業\n\n15:15.426 --> 15:24.622\n我想說對於國安的一些東西比較不熟悉用這個去批評他不夠專業我想這個邏輯也沒有什麼道理啦所以我不太認同說\n\n15:26.894 --> 15:54.626\n有些委員的這個說法啦那更何況我覺得普通法院的審判的獨立性是遠高於軍事法院啦這個我想也沒有國人或是任何一個政治人物敢否認這個道理我想讓國家受到司法官訓練所法官學院出來的這些專業的法官檢察官追溯以及審判這個是保障一個國人最大的程序保障這個是最大的程序保障我想這個才對而不是\n\n15:55.766 --> 16:22.926\n去做一些很奇怪的調整另外就是說如果在喊說軍人受到滲透那我的一個感覺就是說奇怪阿瑪英九時代為什麼沒有軍人受滲透民進黨執政九年就軍隊都被滲透那你這個執政黨在搞什麼鬼為什麼九年了被滲透的這麼嚴重那就算我們要去處罰這些被滲透的軍人我們要重判該修的也是陸海工軍刑法而不是程序法的軍事審判法\n\n16:23.707 --> 16:29.493\n邏輯也完全錯誤但是現在的政府就會誤導人民一直亂扯亂鬼扯我就像剛剛那個次長您回答吳思堯的問題一樣\n\n16:33.735 --> 16:56.554\n你們講說我們認為憲判八有一個東西一致覺得需要公投他就跟你扯說我們有沒有廢死我一致覺得這個問題我有意見跟我國有廢死有什麼關係第二個他說我們有執行一個死刑啊那怎麼會叫我國廢住死刑這個更是腦殘這是法盲的人講的話不好意思我剛那句話講錯這是法盲的人講的話因為\n\n17:00.957 --> 17:24.714\n執行死刑是對於確定判決去執行死刑能不能下判決是根本還沒有確定判決一審二審三審那個叫做判決所以有沒有一致覺是在法官審理案件的時候能不能夠下這樣的判決這個跟判決確定的案子執行死刑這兩回事嘛怎麼會講說我國有執行一個死刑所以我國沒有廢除死刑\n\n17:25.254 --> 17:50.168\n這在法律上面的邏輯是不對所以他剛剛說邏輯他剛剛一直說這個邏輯怎麼樣我想說應該不是說邏輯有瑕疵的問題而是講話的人自己邏輯混亂他自己邏輯搞不清楚事實上這兩個東西是完全不同我想各位在場一定聽得懂我在講什麼那有的委員聽不懂就算了我已經我過去一年已經很努力但是我發現努力是對某些人是沒有效果的\n\n17:50.885 --> 18:15.617\n所以次長剛剛你回答那個東西我在那邊聽我覺得這兩個東西無關啦所以我不這麼認同啦那因為廢除死刑與否我們從來沒有說死刑被宣告違憲或廢除我們是對於所謂的判決中加以自決這個東西我們希望聽取人民的觀念但是有一些無良的政客他們就喜歡帶風向一直騙人民說我國死刑沒有廢除啊你在公投什麼\n\n18:16.357 --> 18:29.851\n然後就亂扯而對於一個沒有存在的東西進行公投我覺得這個都在騙人民啦這是現在這些政客們他們的每天的工作目的就是一直在騙人民但我對我自己的要求是不說謊講實話\n\n18:31.613 --> 18:56.029\n那今天這個東西即使我講出來對自己不利我們還是得說實話我不會像有些政客只為了達到他某些目的然後就去那邊胡說八道就像他說他們對外說昨天晚上開會叫做突襲拜託民眾黨昨天白天就已經送出要會議要延長到晚上12點然後如果是被突襲的話還會有幾個人拿著那個牌子在那邊說會議無效嗎還有時間去準備那個牌子事實上在昨天在吃\n\n18:56.869 --> 19:22.671\n晚餐便當的時候他們都站一排在那裡準備要衝進來我們也都看到只是我不想跟這些每天造謠說謊的政客混在一起如果這些造謠說謊政客就是我國的中央民意代表的話那其實是中華民國的悲哀因為你中央民意代表每天就是說謊從一路以來從不管是這次談論公投不管是預算的審查等等的外面就是鬼扯蛋胡說八道\n\n19:23.846 --> 19:50.100\n然後連總統各部會首長都在騙人這個真是難以想像啦因為我以前我以前以為是行政機關最多做到美化數據至少說出來不會是說謊但是會到現在譬如說洪正漢部長說那個什麼金貼育兒金貼被刪光結果後來發現一毛都沒有刪然後說不是我是口誤這個社會充斥的這種謊言那這國家該怎麼辦\n\n19:52.939 --> 20:08.650\n這我有感覺不好意思回到剛剛我說的就是有關軍事審判這個部分我還是必須這樣講因為這些軍人都是我們的小孩那這是我們的小孩也是我們的國人你今天讓他受到更完整的\n\n20:09.591 --> 20:30.230\n成績保障錯在哪裡那不要什麼東西都為了選票把意識形態拉進來其實那個是對不起我們的子子孫孫那最後一個小東西行事局跟司導業先回去最後一個不好意思耽誤大家時間就是\n\n20:31.712 --> 20:39.332\n次長你也是檢察官出身我也是檢察官出身嘛那次長以前就是我們的長官我們都非常的尊重尊敬次長\n\n20:41.300 --> 21:08.094\n這個北檢這次3月12號的北檢新聞稿今年3月12號跟10月22號談論有關就是一位檢察官到醫院就訓審訊被告這件事情那我想請教一下那第一個我前提先說這個案子已經起訴法院審理中所以法務部現在的檢察官現在不是承辦的人所以不要再像上一次開會的時候有\n\n21:10.680 --> 21:25.283\n某幾個立委在那邊喊說干涉個案怎麼可以詢問個案一個已經起訴的案件不是法務部現在在懲辦中了那跟法務部就這個案子的程序瑕疵去討論通案該怎麼解決\n\n21:26.638 --> 21:43.207\n不這麼做才是對不起立法委員這個身份怎麼會在那邊喊說干預個案在那邊大呼小叫我覺得這個水準也很不夠也是一個法盲所以我這邊請教一下所以當天這個林姓檢察官去現場到底是訊問還是去視察那過去過去\n\n21:47.967 --> 22:03.934\n五年內到底有多少檢察官是去視察那個視察醫院我想請教一下次長113年11月11號這一次是有詢問也有做筆錄那113年10月14號這一次是視察那兩次呢辯護人都在場\n\n22:15.357 --> 22:31.746\n沒有辯護人在場我沒有意見啦對那我的意思是說好那以11號這次來說好了那你還沒有回答我第二個問題請問一下過去五年全國有多少檢察官去視察醫院而且有進行視察的程序這一個數字看守什麼醫院\n\n22:40.117 --> 22:59.959\n喔那看守所的醫院沒有不是看守所不要跟我講看守所然後這個醫院的部分沒有對那喔不用說過去五年啦過去二十年啦我跟你講我跟上報告可能我財疏血淺但我自己二十年的檢察官生涯裡面我從來沒做過也沒聽過有同仁去\n\n23:01.443 --> 23:28.595\n醫院正規的醫院去做視察場所的這個視察動作視察跟做筆錄完全不一樣視察是針對這個處所到底適不適合這個在押的被告他在那邊會不會受到人格人性尊嚴上面的侵害嘛所以兩個是不一樣的東西啊那你混在一起講我覺得今天之所以造成那麼大的民眾的糾紛就是這裡那這每一個糾紛都對司法傷害很重\n\n23:29.235 --> 23:46.631\n所以我想請問過去20年有人這麼做嗎醫院視察的部分沒有對所以這就是我講的我再三講我過去20年沒有這樣的例子過那你們不要跟我們談說什麼看守所等等的那個視察那個是日常在做\n\n23:47.965 --> 24:11.414\n視察也有視察報告會帶書記官去進行視察報告都會做得很清楚會通知法院會呈報長官我想這個是該做的基本的作為所以我們這邊可以確認一件事過去20年除了這位檢察官曾經做過之外沒有全國沒有檢察官做過這個事情我問過一堆同學他們連聽都沒有聽過這樣子做所以因為這樣所以容易讓人家\n\n24:12.813 --> 24:37.354\n而且甚至對於高度爭議案件更容易發生糾紛我不是要譴責那位警察官我只是說請次長注意一下尤其是高度爭議案件政治案件對於程序的要求要求警察官要更嚴謹警察官千萬不能為了辦案為了辦出一個案子升遷不要說辦出案子升遷為了辦出一個案子有成就感而去就程序部分\n\n24:38.876 --> 25:03.324\n亂做我覺得這是不對的好不好就是次長這部分要麻煩你們你們一定要做到那如果是去詢問詢問有沒有全程錄音錄影這個也必須要求全國的檢察官一定要做到我今天給你們看不好意思最後30秒一個Trace上面的檢察官自己寫的他認為就訊這個就是日常今天為什麼會發生這種事情就是因為有\n\n25:04.364 --> 25:31.091\n由檢察官濫用就訊的這個作為然後導致今天全國的檢察官包括司法受到人民的不信任所以法務部真的要出來處理這件事情你不能放任檢察官在做任何一個案子的偵查我不去論他有沒有政治目的我都不去論而是檢察官你在辦案成功雖然會有成就感但你不能為了成就感而去侵害被告的基本人權\n\n25:32.475 --> 25:41.980\n這是完全不對的那這個部分再麻煩這個是罪上面其他檢察官寫的那更不要講檢察官論壇裡面有非常多檢察官批評這件事不好意思耽誤大家時間謝謝次長\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.69,"end":25.918,"text":"請問主席 我想會議詢問一下就是因為剛剛有一點我剛剛主持會議的時候有一點小衝突因為主要就是說我想要確認一下我們委員會那委員在質詢的時間內如果問的問題跟本日的議程不一樣那到底可以還是不可以因為之前吳世耀委員他其實曾經就委員在"},{"start":26.798,"end":47.632,"text":"他的時間內然後詢問官員跟今日的議程不一樣的題目他當時一直抗議那因為今天他問的東西也跟今日的議程完全不一樣所以我剛剛只是要就這個會議程序的部分我想說做一個確認那我不知道主席這部分主席有什麼想法"},{"start":48.627,"end":70.892,"text":"我想依照過去不管是民進黨委員或是國民黨的委員在主持私委會的相關會議的時候其實主席都會尊重委員在時間內的發言通常不會去干預委員在質詢的時間裡面的任何的發言內容"},{"start":71.462,"end":96.453,"text":"好 謝謝 因為剛剛喔因為剛剛我其實我是公正的在主持會議那我認為這個是一個會議的這個怎麼進行的問題這其實跟所謂的政治鬥那個惡鬥或者是什麼並沒有關聯性我只是要確認一下而且確認之後就是適用於每一個委員而不是特定委員可以 特定委員不行所以我想我剛剛指這個那我不知道為什麼剛剛有人會"},{"start":98.494,"end":123.409,"text":"這麼大發脾氣然後連那個髒話都罵出來那我也在這邊補充一下就是說罵人家垃圾在實務的判決是構成公然無路我想說這可能跟其他委員提醒一下不是說罵人垃圾就沒事情罵人垃圾其實是構成公然無路尤其在國會殿堂裡面身為一個國家的中央級的民意代表在那邊大吼大叫拍桌子罵髒話其實"},{"start":125.664,"end":145.114,"text":"這個作為就是讓人家去取笑說到底我們國會議員的水準在什麼地方那當然當然社會本來對國會議員的期待這段時間可能大家也都心裡有數啦但是我還是希望說我至少我會這樣要求我自己我就是在國會開會的時候委員會開會的時候其實"},{"start":148.755,"end":168.095,"text":"除了最基本的要求自己要言之有物之外也要懂得控制情緒尊重別人更不可以說在那邊還罵別人在法律上面實務上面已經判決非常多的判決認定這個會構成公然污辱的事情那如果說可以隨隨便便就這樣的話那台灣"},{"start":169.396,"end":176.701,"text":"國會其實會讓世界看笑話這我想說這是我剛剛的會議詢問那我就確認一下在我們的詢問的時間內其實我們就是尊重委員的發言好 謝謝我想就是剛剛這個莊瑞雄委員他說他的不當發言其實這個讓人家看笑話這個整個國民黨對不起我剛剛不是莊瑞雄委員對不起我剛剛說錯了剛剛是審發會委員"},{"start":196.294,"end":216.384,"text":"他的不當發言是讓這個社會在看笑話立法委員作為社會的一個表率我覺得應該是在任何的場合裡面都要謹慎發言不可以有任何的暴力或是辱罵的這樣的一個行為那麼像我們昨天在立法院的院會裡面也是看到這柯建民總召"},{"start":217.365,"end":234.167,"text":"這個暴力這個拿棍子去敲桌子然後甚至還波及到還傷害到了這個徐曉新委員其實這些都是非常不當的言行那我們希望我們未來在司法委會的會議的場合裡面呢都能夠大家能夠尊重"},{"start":235.288,"end":258.437,"text":"是 我也跟主席及在座的各位委員還有各位報告就像民進黨最喜歡說最近對於那個中配那個雅雅案一直說言論自由不是毫無限制這個邏輯一樣言論免責權也不是毫無限制你不能動不動對人家罵髒話像剛罵我垃圾我是覺得我在那邊說我不會去提告啦因為"},{"start":259.895,"end":275.381,"text":"因為你自己是不是個垃圾自己心裡很清楚那你罵別人垃圾到底誰是垃圾我想說就算了我就我不會去提告好謝謝好那我們麻煩司法院法務部以及刑事局主委好是謝謝"},{"start":284.605,"end":295.82,"text":"好 謝謝三位我想說在座我以前的長官還有以前一起合作辦過很多案子的副局長先說很高興在這邊能夠看到各位"},{"start":298.021,"end":324.236,"text":"那謝謝我先請教一個問題我想說我們今天討論的主題是對於這個草案就是有關逮捕到案的犯罪嫌疑人我們要對他進行非侵入式的採尿那這個需要得到檢察官同意讓檢察官來保留和發許可書但是呢我看到一個問題就是我們實務上面有非常多的案子都必須對這個被告進行採尿的這個動作像毒販或是像"},{"start":324.756,"end":340.707,"text":"甚至其他的刑案有時候當事人在抗辯他可能是吸毒後所為那他在量刑上面可能會有所不一樣這個時候採尿都變成一個很重要的證據我想三位都是食物界所以非常的能夠理解但是呢這次司法院跟"},{"start":341.488,"end":363.443,"text":"行政院的版本最大的不同就是檢察官許可書就是檢察官保留的這個檢察官許可書要就是說另外要不要送交執行機關還有那個受採尿人有沒有需要送達我想先請教一下司法院為何司法院在草案裡面有提到要送交執行機關以及受採取人"},{"start":366.906,"end":384.938,"text":"那這個部分剛才在報告中有說到就是說我們現在規定的這個送交呢它是採在刑事訴訟法相同的這些規定的那個法例像是34條之一限制辯護人還有羈押被告接見通信的這個限制書"},{"start":385.999,"end":400.396,"text":"那還有這103條執行羈押的押票這我們事務上最常做的就是這個押票那還有203條之二的執行留置鑑定留置的這個鑑定留置票你們目的是什麼 要送達的目的是什麼"},{"start":402.741,"end":423.142,"text":"因為這是讓受採取人呢他可以真正的就是說收到這一份那個書那從這邊來開始就是作為那個我我想我聽懂的話就是當事人起算救濟時間嘛是明確的救濟時間我想說司法院是這個理由但是呢我想我請教一下副局長"},{"start":424.303,"end":448.395,"text":"實務上面這個有沒有辦法執行因為法務部跟我看了一下行政院跟市長院的版本不一樣是差在這個地方那警察在執行上面有沒有困難如果說每一份材料書都要送達執行機關跟當事人跟委員報告警察執行不是說有困難在很多包括我們的搜索扣押包括鑑定許可書事實上我們去都是出事"},{"start":448.955,"end":468.162,"text":"我們這些搜索票或是許可書讓他確認這樣的程序那我覺得警方在執行的時候如果能夠有一致的標準對於警察基層尤其是派出所的員警如果在執行這方面的話比較不會混淆而且這個現在已經限縮到他已經是"},{"start":468.842,"end":489.15,"text":"逮捕到案的人而且有相當理由等等這些我想對於整個自由權的侵犯會比較輕微已經比較輕微了這跟這個壓票啦或怎麼樣我相信他的侵害權是不太一樣那我想就是說我先跟三位報告一下我自己的實務經驗在第一線因為我為錢帶隊搜索非常多次"},{"start":491.011,"end":519.87,"text":"就很多人知道我以前曾經戴瑞搜索被開過槍那還好沒打到我我要講的是第一線執行跟司法院在辦公室想的其實是有一個差距那當然當事人是不是可以提醒救濟這起算時間點我們也要予以重視但是呢是不是檢察官其實他告知要採尿其實這個時間點就可以起算了而不需要說明確要收到那個許可書不以收到許可書那個時間點"},{"start":521.532,"end":541.967,"text":"他才能夠保障他的救濟的起算時間其實檢察官做這個處分的時候他當時聽到了這個也是算是起算這不是對當事人也很有保障嗎所以這個是我提出來因為司法院的意思是說這個是要確認當事人救濟的時間點但是在食物運作上面我自己的食物經驗其實"},{"start":543.228,"end":568.785,"text":"你要另外再要求警察機關再去做一個這個動作可能是多此一舉因為對於這個處分告訴當事人這個時間點是可以確定的譬如說筆錄可以確定譬如說現場拍攝的影片可以確定所以有沒有必要一定要做這個送達這會增加很多行政成本增加很多郵遞的費用以及增加"},{"start":569.545,"end":595.439,"text":"那個當事人將來的一些就是他可能就醫上面一些問題我覺得不一定說一定是好的所以這個部分可能再麻煩司法院跟法務部這邊能夠溝通市長我補充一點就是說這個送交這個要給執行機關跟受採尿的人的話這個要件一旦放進去可是跟前面的205之一條件是不一樣第一線的警察如果弄混的時候那將來這一個"},{"start":597.526,"end":610.944,"text":"沒有送交簽名這個動作沒有送交這個動作會直接影響到證據能力的問題這個也是我們擔心的地方弄混了以後反而後面的非侵入性的材料會被懷疑有證據能力的問題這個也是我們擔心的"},{"start":612.746,"end":629.049,"text":"所以我自己在看這個的時候我也會覺得說這個在實務上面反而會困擾自己所以說思考院就這個部分可不可以再思考一下看草案是不是一定要放入這個因為這在第一線執行上面將來會有一些麻煩發生因為我自己看完之後我也覺得"},{"start":630.03,"end":650.825,"text":"這個沒有必要 而且對當事人的保障其實起算時間已經很明確啦就檢察官的處分時間點啦所以真的有需要再多一個送達來去保障嗎我想說刑事案件的偵辦同時要維護社會公義以及被告的當事人的程序正義那這兩個權衡之下我是建議可以再討論這個問題"},{"start":653.863,"end":677.788,"text":"跟委員報告 司法院這部分是開放的就是我們會多聽從那個大家的意見更何況我們今天他是對於非侵入式的採尿如果侵入式當然我們可能意見就會比較多非侵入式的這個採尿其實而且是當事人自己排尿的有沒有必要程序保障到會讓第一線的執行機關不好執行我想是這個我們可以"},{"start":678.368,"end":700.691,"text":"我們今天任何一個法律的立出來是要對國家社會有貢獻這才有意義而不是無限上綱的那個權力保障這是我個人的前見好那我在這部分我想麻煩法務部也能夠一個禮拜內給我一個演繹就是有關這個部分好謝謝法務部那我再請教一下司法院那司法院這軍事審判那個"},{"start":702.032,"end":713.078,"text":"最近一直在吵這軍審判的問題我想請問一下今天排審的法案之所以要修法我們也是為了提升正當法律程序對不對今天的議案"},{"start":714.755,"end":730.32,"text":"沒問題嘛那當人民接受司法機關偵查審判的時候其實我想對他的程序保障最重要的最重要就是我們要讓他在一個正當程序保障之下來接受訴訟來進行訴訟這個很重要嘛那所以"},{"start":735.239,"end":757.43,"text":"我們先告訴國人一件事情今天軍人犯罪的話那是不是他還是實體法部分適用軍事審判法程序上面改用刑事訴訟法現在是這樣對不對那你知不知道當初廢除我們暫停軍事審判法適用的原因是什麼你知道嗎"},{"start":760.298,"end":778.004,"text":"這個部分是在那個民國102年的時候呢可能就是國人就是大家對於就是說軍事審判的部分對於那個正當程序的要求是不是能夠那個達到是這個部分大家有一些檢討對就是因為當時我們覺得我們我國的軍事審判他的程序保障的嚴謹度"},{"start":779.344,"end":797.31,"text":"是低於刑訴送法我想這個是沒有爭議的那這個 也就是這個原因所以當年民進黨以及當年非常多的國人他認為說我們軍審辦法先暫停適用非暫時我們就是讓他受到普通法院的那個程序保障"},{"start":797.93,"end":813.459,"text":"也就是因為這個原因所以有非常多的案子就是我記得好像是反滲透法類的啦還是這類的案子好像現在都沒有一個確定判決出來很久了嘛所以我認為就是司法審判"},{"start":814.58,"end":834.856,"text":"普通法院的司法審判其實他的要求嚴謹度是很高所以他不會像軍事審判很快就判出來了那因為他的嚴謹度要求很高其實對當事人是一個保障啦那我個人是覺得說這些軍人也是大家的小孩而且大部分的軍人都是在20歲上下而已也是國人的小孩啊"},{"start":835.316,"end":853.232,"text":"那我們讓他受到比較完整的程序保障到底錯在哪裡為什麼我們要走回頭路這是我個人的意見那當然我知道您現在的位置也不方便就這個表達意見所以我想說我的認為就是為什麼我們要從一個保障嚴謹的"},{"start":855.054,"end":882.446,"text":"司法程序要走回保障不夠嚴謹的司法程序更何況當年改的就是強力主張的就是現在的執政黨 民進黨而且現在又是民進黨希望把它改回軍事審判這個我想也要讓國人知道這個是蠻莫名其妙的而且對國家到底它的好處在哪裡其實我也想不通啦那我再請教一下那現在法院裡面是不是有設那個國安軍事專業案件的專股"},{"start":884.346,"end":913.043,"text":"有設專股或是專庭每個法院都有設嗎每個法院都有設好那我現在還是一個邏輯就是說目前有立法委員批評說這些法官不夠專業那我想如果我是不懂說一輩子從事審理審判案件的法官為什麼對於審理案件是不專業我想最多我們能夠說法官比較不專業的地方可能是對於軍中的文化比較不熟悉但是用這個理由去批評他不夠專業"},{"start":915.426,"end":924.622,"text":"我想說對於國安的一些東西比較不熟悉用這個去批評他不夠專業我想這個邏輯也沒有什麼道理啦所以我不太認同說"},{"start":926.894,"end":954.626,"text":"有些委員的這個說法啦那更何況我覺得普通法院的審判的獨立性是遠高於軍事法院啦這個我想也沒有國人或是任何一個政治人物敢否認這個道理我想讓國家受到司法官訓練所法官學院出來的這些專業的法官檢察官追溯以及審判這個是保障一個國人最大的程序保障這個是最大的程序保障我想這個才對而不是"},{"start":955.766,"end":982.926,"text":"去做一些很奇怪的調整另外就是說 如果在喊說軍人受到滲透那我的一個感覺就是說奇怪 阿瑪英九時代為什麼沒有軍人受滲透民進黨執政九年就軍隊都被滲透那你這個執政黨在搞什麼鬼為什麼九年了被滲透的這麼嚴重那就算我們要去處罰這些被滲透的軍人我們要重判該修的也是陸海工軍刑法而不是程序法的軍事審判法"},{"start":983.707,"end":989.493,"text":"邏輯也完全錯誤但是現在的政府就會誤導人民一直亂扯亂鬼扯我就像剛剛那個次長您回答吳思堯的問題一樣"},{"start":993.735,"end":1016.554,"text":"你們講說我們認為憲判八有一個東西一致覺得需要公投他就跟你扯說我們有沒有廢死我一致覺得這個問題我有意見跟我國有廢死有什麼關係第二個他說我們有執行一個死刑啊那怎麼會叫我國廢住死刑這個更是腦殘這是法盲的人講的話不好意思我剛那句話講錯這是法盲的人講的話因為"},{"start":1020.957,"end":1044.714,"text":"執行死刑是對於確定判決去執行死刑能不能下判決是根本還沒有確定判決一審二審三審那個叫做判決所以有沒有一致覺是在法官審理案件的時候能不能夠下這樣的判決這個跟判決確定的案子執行死刑這兩回事嘛怎麼會講說我國有執行一個死刑所以我國沒有廢除死刑"},{"start":1045.254,"end":1070.168,"text":"這在法律上面的邏輯是不對所以他剛剛說邏輯他剛剛一直說這個邏輯怎麼樣我想說應該不是說邏輯有瑕疵的問題而是講話的人自己邏輯混亂他自己邏輯搞不清楚事實上這兩個東西是完全不同我想各位在場一定聽得懂我在講什麼那有的委員聽不懂就算了我已經我過去一年已經很努力但是我發現努力是對某些人是沒有效果的"},{"start":1070.885,"end":1095.617,"text":"所以次長剛剛你回答那個東西我在那邊聽我覺得這兩個東西無關啦所以我不這麼認同啦那因為廢除死刑與否我們從來沒有說死刑被宣告違憲或廢除我們是對於所謂的判決中加以自決這個東西我們希望聽取人民的觀念但是有一些無良的政客他們就喜歡帶風向一直騙人民說我國死刑沒有廢除啊你在公投什麼"},{"start":1096.357,"end":1109.851,"text":"然後就亂扯而對於一個沒有存在的東西進行公投我覺得這個都在騙人民啦這是現在這些政客們他們的每天的工作目的就是一直在騙人民但我對我自己的要求是不說謊講實話"},{"start":1111.613,"end":1136.029,"text":"那今天這個東西即使我講出來對自己不利 我們還是得說實話我不會像有些政客 只為了達到他某些目的 然後就去那邊胡說八道就像他說 他們對外說 昨天晚上開會叫做突襲拜託民眾黨昨天白天就已經送出要會議要延長到晚上12點然後如果是被突襲的話 還會有幾個人拿著那個牌子在那邊說會議無效嗎還有時間去準備那個牌子 事實上在昨天在吃"},{"start":1136.869,"end":1162.671,"text":"晚餐便當的時候他們都站一排在那裡準備要衝進來我們也都看到只是我不想跟這些每天造謠說謊的政客混在一起如果這些造謠說謊政客就是我國的中央民意代表的話那其實是中華民國的悲哀因為你中央民意代表每天就是說謊從一路以來從不管是這次談論公投不管是預算的審查等等的外面就是鬼扯蛋胡說八道"},{"start":1163.846,"end":1190.1,"text":"然後連總統各部會首長都在騙人這個真是難以想像啦因為我以前我以前以為是行政機關最多做到美化數據至少說出來不會是說謊但是會到現在譬如說洪正漢部長說那個什麼金貼育兒金貼被刪光結果後來發現一毛都沒有刪然後說不是我是口誤這個社會充斥的這種謊言那這國家該怎麼辦"},{"start":1192.939,"end":1208.65,"text":"這我有感覺 不好意思 回到剛剛我說的就是有關軍事審判這個部分 我還是必須這樣講因為這些軍人都是我們的小孩那這是我們的小孩 也是我們的國人你今天讓他受到更完整的"},{"start":1209.591,"end":1230.23,"text":"成績保障錯在哪裡那不要什麼東西都為了選票把意識形態拉進來其實那個是對不起我們的子子孫孫那最後一個小東西行事局跟司導業先回去最後一個 不好意思耽誤大家時間就是"},{"start":1231.712,"end":1239.332,"text":"次長 你也是檢察官出身 我也是檢察官出身嘛那次長 以前就是我們的長官 我們都非常的尊重 尊敬次長"},{"start":1241.3,"end":1268.094,"text":"這個北檢這次3月12號的北檢新聞稿今年3月12號跟10月22號談論有關就是一位檢察官到醫院就訓審訊被告這件事情那我想請教一下那第一個我前提先說這個案子已經起訴法院審理中所以法務部現在的檢察官現在不是承辦的人所以不要再像上一次開會的時候有"},{"start":1270.68,"end":1285.283,"text":"某幾個立委在那邊喊說干涉個案怎麼可以詢問個案一個已經起訴的案件不是法務部現在在懲辦中了那跟法務部就這個案子的程序瑕疵去討論通案該怎麼解決"},{"start":1286.638,"end":1303.207,"text":"不這麼做才是對不起立法委員這個身份怎麼會在那邊喊說干預個案在那邊大呼小叫我覺得這個水準也很不夠也是一個法盲所以我這邊請教一下所以當天這個林姓檢察官去現場到底是訊問還是去視察那過去過去"},{"start":1307.967,"end":1323.934,"text":"五年內到底有多少檢察官是去視察那個視察醫院我想請教一下次長113年11月11號這一次是有詢問也有做筆錄那113年10月14號這一次是視察那兩次呢辯護人都在場"},{"start":1335.357,"end":1351.746,"text":"沒有 辯護人在場我沒有意見啦對那我的意思是說好 那以11號這次來說好了那你還沒有回答我第二個問題請問一下過去五年全國有多少檢察官去視察醫院而且有進行視察的程序這一個數字看守什麼醫院"},{"start":1360.117,"end":1379.959,"text":"喔 那看守所的醫院沒有不是看守所 不要跟我講看守所然後這個醫院的部分沒有對 那喔 不用說過去五年啦過去二十年啦我跟你講 我跟上報告可能我財疏血淺但我自己二十年的檢察官生涯裡面我從來沒做過 也沒聽過有同仁去"},{"start":1381.443,"end":1408.595,"text":"醫院 正規的醫院去做視察場所的這個視察動作視察跟做筆錄完全不一樣視察是針對這個處所到底適不適合這個在押的被告他在那邊會不會受到人格人性尊嚴上面的侵害嘛所以兩個是不一樣的東西啊那你混在一起講我覺得今天之所以造成那麼大的民眾的糾紛就是這裡那這每一個糾紛都對司法傷害很重"},{"start":1409.235,"end":1426.631,"text":"所以我想請問過去20年有人這麼做嗎醫院視察的部分沒有對 所以這就是我講的我再三講我過去20年沒有這樣的例子過那你們不要跟我們談說什麼看守所等等的那個視察那個是日常在做"},{"start":1427.965,"end":1451.414,"text":"視察也有視察報告會帶書記官去進行視察報告都會做得很清楚會通知法院會呈報長官我想這個是該做的基本的作為所以我們這邊可以確認一件事過去20年除了這位檢察官曾經做過之外沒有全國沒有檢察官做過這個事情我問過一堆同學他們連聽都沒有聽過這樣子做所以因為這樣所以容易讓人家"},{"start":1452.813,"end":1477.354,"text":"而且甚至對於高度爭議案件更容易發生糾紛我不是要譴責那位警察官我只是說請次長注意一下尤其是高度爭議案件政治案件對於程序的要求要求警察官要更嚴謹警察官千萬不能為了辦案為了辦出一個案子升遷不要說辦出案子升遷為了辦出一個案子有成就感而去就程序部分"},{"start":1478.876,"end":1503.324,"text":"亂做 我覺得這是不對的好不好 就是次長這部分要麻煩你們你們一定要做到那如果是去詢問 詢問有沒有全程錄音錄影這個也必須要求全國的檢察官一定要做到我今天給你們看 不好意思最後30秒一個Trace上面的檢察官自己寫的他認為就訊這個就是日常今天為什麼會發生這種事情 就是因為有"},{"start":1504.364,"end":1531.091,"text":"由檢察官濫用就訊的這個作為然後導致今天全國的檢察官包括司法受到人民的不信任所以法務部真的要出來處理這件事情你不能放任檢察官在做任何一個案子的偵查我不去論他有沒有政治目的我都不去論而是檢察官你在辦案成功雖然會有成就感但你不能為了成就感而去侵害被告的基本人權"},{"start":1532.475,"end":1541.98,"text":"這是完全不對的那這個部分再麻煩這個是罪上面其他檢察官寫的那更不要講檢察官論壇裡面有非常多檢察官批評這件事不好意思耽誤大家時間 謝謝次長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":466,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（10時39分）請問主席，我想會議詢問一下，因為我剛主持會議的時候有一點小衝突啦！主要就是我想要確認一下委員會的委員在質詢時間內，如果問的問題跟本日議程不一樣，到底可以還是不可以？因為之前吳思瑤委員曾經就委員在他的時間內詢問官員跟今日議程不一樣的題目，他當時一直抗議，因為今天他問的東西也跟今日議程完全不一樣，所以我剛剛只是要就這個會議程序的部分，我想做一個確認，我不知道主席對這部分有什麼想法？"],["主席：我想依照過去，不管是民進黨委員或是國民黨委員在主持司委會相關會議的時候，其實主席都會尊重委員在時間內的發言，通常不會去干預委員在質詢時間裡面的任何發言內容。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝。因為剛剛我其實是公正的在主持會議，我認為這是一個會議怎麼進行的問題，跟政治惡鬥或者是什麼並沒有關聯性，我只是要確認一下，而且確認之後就是適用於每一個委員，而不是特定委員可以、特定委員不行。所以我剛剛只是這樣，我不知道為什麼剛剛有人會這樣大發脾氣，然後連髒話都罵出來。我也在這邊補充一下，罵人家垃圾在實務判決是構成公然侮辱，我想跟其他委員提醒一下，不是說罵人垃圾就沒事情，罵人垃圾其實是構成公然侮辱，尤其在國會殿堂裡面，身為一個國家中央級民意代表在那邊大吼大叫、拍桌子、罵髒話，其實這個作為就是讓人家取笑說到底我們國會議員的水準在什麼地方，當然社會本來對國會議員的期待，這段時間可能大家也都心裡有數啦！但是我還是希望說……至少我會這樣要求我自己，就是在國會開會、委員會開會的時候，除了最基本的要求自己要言之有物之外，也要懂得控制情緒，尊重別人，更不可以在那邊罵別人，在法律上面、實務上面已經有非常多的判決認定這個會構成公然侮辱的事情，如果可以隨隨便便就這樣的話，那臺灣國會其實會讓世界看笑話，這是我剛剛的會議詢問，我就是確認一下在我們詢問的時間內，就是要尊重委員的發言嘛！謝謝。"],["主席：我想剛剛莊瑞雄委員的不當發言，其實讓人家看笑話，整個……對不起！剛剛不是莊瑞雄委員，對不起！我剛剛說錯了，剛剛是沈發惠委員，他的不當發言是讓社會在看笑話，立法委員作為社會的表率，我覺得應該是在任何場合裡面都要謹慎發言，不可以有任何暴力或是辱罵這樣的行為。那麼像我們昨天在立法院院會裡面也看到，就是柯建銘總召暴力拿棍子敲桌子，然後甚至還波及傷害到了徐巧芯委員，其實這些都是非常不當的言行，我們希望未來在司委會的會議場合裡面，大家都能夠尊重委員的發言。"],["吳委員宗憲：我也跟主席及在座的各位委員還有各位報告，就像民進黨最喜歡說……最近對於中配亞亞案一直說言論自由不是毫無限制這個邏輯一樣，言論免責權也不是毫無限制，你不能動不動對人家罵髒話，像剛剛罵我垃圾，我在這邊說我不會去提告，因為你自己是不是個垃圾，自己心裡很清楚；那你罵別人垃圾，到底誰是垃圾？我想說就算了，我不會去提告，謝謝。","麻煩司法院、法務部以及刑事局。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝3位。在座是我以前的長官，還有以前一起合作辦過很多案子的副局長，我先說很高興在這邊能夠看到各位。我先請教一個問題，今天討論的主題是對於草案有關逮捕到案的犯罪嫌疑人，我們要對他進行非侵入式的採尿需要得到檢察官同意，讓檢察官保留核發許可書。但是我看到一個問題就是，實務上面有非常多的案子都必須對被告進行採尿動作，像毒販或是甚至像其他刑案有時候當事人在抗辯他可能是吸毒後所為，在量刑上面可能會有所不一樣，這個時候採尿都變成一個很重要的證據，我想3位都是在實務界，所以非常能夠理解。但是這次司法院跟行政院的版本最大的不同是檢察官保留的檢察官許可書要不要另外送交執行機關還有受採尿人，有沒有需要送達？我想先請教一下司法院，為何司法院在草案裡面有提到要送交執行機關以及受採取人？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員垂詢。這個部分剛才在報告中也有說到，我們現在規定的這個送交是採在刑事訴訟法相同的這些規定的法例，像是第三十四條之一限制辯護人，還有羈押被告接見通信的限制書，還有在第一百零三條執行羈押的押票，這是實務上最常做的押票，還有第二百零三條之二的鑑定留置票。"],["吳委員宗憲：我知道，你們要送達的目的是什麼？"],["王副秘書長梅英：因為這是讓受採取人可以真正的收到這一份書，從這邊來開始作為……"],["吳委員宗憲：副秘，我聽懂你的話，就是當事人起算救濟時間嘛！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：是明確的救濟時間，我想司法院是這個理由。"],["王副秘書長梅英：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是我想請教一下副局長，實務上面這個有沒有辦法執行？我後來看了一下行政院跟司法院的版本不一樣是差在這個地方，警察在執行上面有沒有困難？如果每一份採尿書都要送達執行機關跟當事人？"],["林副局長故廷：跟委員報告，警察執行不是說有困難，在很多包括我們的搜索扣押，包括鑑定許可書，事實上我們去，都是出示這些搜索票或是許可書讓他簽名確認這樣的程序，我覺得警方在執勤的時候，如果能夠有一致的標準，對於警察基層，尤其是派出所員警，在執行這方面的話比較不會混淆，而且這個現在已經限縮到是逮捕到案的人，而且有相當理由等等這些，我想對於整個自由權的侵犯會比較輕微，已經比較輕微了，這跟押票或怎麼樣，我相信其侵害權是不太一樣。"],["吳委員宗憲：了解。我先跟3位報告一下我自己在第一線的實務經驗，因為我以前也帶隊搜索非常多次，很多人也知道我以前曾經在帶隊搜索時被開過槍，還好沒打到我。所以我要講的是，第一線執行跟司法院在辦公室想的其實有差距，當然當事人是不是可以提請救濟，這個起算時間點我們也要予以重視。但是，檢察官告知要採尿，其實這個時間點就可以起算了，而不需要明確要收到許可書，不以收到許可書那個時間點才能夠保障他的救濟起算時間，其實檢察官做這個處分的時候，他當時聽到了，這個也算是起算，這不是對當事人也很有保障嗎？所以這個是我提出來，因為司法院的意思是這個是要確認當事人救濟的時間點嘛！但是在實務運作上面，我自己的實務經驗，其實你要另外再要求警察機關再去做這個動作，可能是多此一舉，因為對於這個處分，告訴當事人的時間點是可以確定的，譬如說筆錄可以確定，譬如說現場拍攝的影片可以確定，所以有沒有必要一定要做這個送達，這會增加很多行政成本、增加很多郵遞費用，以及增加當事人將來可能救濟上面的一些問題，我覺得不一定是好的，所以這個部分可能再麻煩司法院跟法務部這邊能夠溝通。次長？"],["徐次長錫祥：委員，我補充一點就是要送交給執行機關跟受採尿人的話，這個要件一旦放進去是跟前面的第二百零五條之一的條件不一樣，第一線的警察如果弄混的時候，將來沒有送交簽名的這個動作會直接影響到證據能力的問題，這個也是我們擔心的地方，弄混了以後反而後面的非侵入性採尿會被懷疑有證據能力的問題，這個是我們擔心的。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，所以我自己在看這個的時候，我也會覺得這在實務上面反而會困擾自己，所以司法院就這個部分可不可以再思考一下，看草案是不是一定要放入這個？因為這在第一線執行上面將來會有一些麻煩發生，我自己看完之後，我也覺得這個沒有必要，而且對當事人的保障其實起算時間已經很明確，就是檢察官的處分時間點，所以真的有需要再多一個送達來保障嗎？我想刑事案件的偵辦同時要維護社會公益，以及被告當事人的程序正義，這兩個權衡之下，我是建議可以再討論這個問題。"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，司法院這部分是開放的，就是說我們會多聽從大家的意見。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。更何況今天是對於非侵入式的採尿，如果是侵入式的，當然我們可能意見就會比較多，非侵入式的採尿，而且是當事人自己排尿的，有沒有必要程序保障到會讓第一線的執行機關不好執行，我想我們今天任何一個法律的訂定，是要對國家社會有貢獻，這才有意義，而不是無限上綱的權利保障，這是我個人的淺見。有關這個部分，麻煩法務部能夠一個禮拜內給我一個研議，謝謝法務部。","我再請教一下司法院，最近一直在吵軍事審判的問題，我想請問一下，今天排審的法案之所以要修法，我們也是為了提升正當法律程序，對不對？就是有關今天的議案，沒問題嘛？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：當人民接受司法機關偵查審判的時候，其實我想對於程序保障最重要的就是要讓他在一個正當程序的保障之下來進行訴訟，這個很重要，所以我們先告訴國人一件事情，今天軍人犯罪的話，實體法部分還是適用軍事審判法，程序上面改用刑事訴訟法，現在是這樣，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。你知不知道當初暫停軍事審判法適用的原因是什麼，您知道嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個部分是在民國102年的時候，可能國人對於軍事審判有關正當程序的要求是否能夠達到，針對這個部分大家有一些檢討。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，就是因為當時我們覺得我國軍事審判的程序保障的嚴謹度是低於刑事訴訟法，我想這是沒有爭議的，也就是因為這個原因，所以當年民進黨以及非常多的國人都認為軍事審判法先暫停適用，非戰時就是讓他受到普通法院的程序保障，也就是因為這個原因，所以有非常多的案子，我記得好像是反滲透法類的還是這類的案子，好像現在都沒有一個確定判決出來，很久了嘛，所以我認為普通法院的司法審判其實要求的嚴謹度是很高，所以並不會像軍事審判很快就判出來了，那麼因為它的嚴謹度要求很高，其實對於當事人是一個保障，我個人是覺得這些軍人也是大家的小孩，而且大部分的軍人都是在20歲上下而已，也是國人的小孩，我們讓他受到比較完整的程序保障，到底錯在哪裡？為什麼我們要走回頭路？這是我個人的意見，當然我知道您現在的位置也不方便就這個部分表達意見，但我是認為為什麼我們要從一個保障嚴謹的司法程序走回保障不夠嚴謹的司法程序？更何況當年強力主張要改的就是現在的執政黨民進黨，現在又是民進黨希望改回軍事審判，我想也要讓國人知道這是蠻莫名其妙的，對國家的好處到底在哪裡？其實我也想不通。","我再請教一下，現在法院裡面是不是有設國安軍事專業案件的專股？"],["王副秘書長梅英：有設專股或是專庭。"],["吳委員宗憲：每個法院都有設嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：每個法院都有設。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。我現在還是一個邏輯，目前有立法委員批評這些法官不夠專業，我是不懂一輩子從事審理、審判案件的法官，為什麼對於審理案件不專業？我想最多我們能夠說法官比較不專業的地方，可能是對於軍中的文化比較不熟悉，但是用這個理由去批評他不夠專業，對於國安的一些東西比較不熟悉，用這個去批評他不夠專業，我想這個邏輯也沒有什麼道理，所以我不太認同有些委員的這個說法；更何況我覺得普通法院的審判獨立性是遠高於軍事法院，這部分我想也沒有國人或是任何一個政治人物敢否認這個道理，讓國家受到從司法官訓練所、法官學院出來的這些專業的法官、檢察官追訴以及審判，這是對於國人最大的程序保障，我想這才對，而不是去做一些很奇怪的調整。","另外就是，如果在喊說軍人受到滲透，讓我感覺很奇怪，那馬英九時代為什麼沒有軍人受滲透？民進黨執政9年，軍隊就都被滲透，那你這個執政黨在搞什麼鬼？為什麼9年被滲透得這麼嚴重？就算我們要去處罰這些被滲透的軍人、我們要重判，該修的也是陸海空軍刑法，而不是程序法的軍事審判法，邏輯也完全錯誤，但是現在的政府就會誤導人民，一直亂扯、亂鬼扯，就像剛剛次長您回答吳思瑤的問題一樣，吳思瑤講什麼我們認為憲判字第8號的一致決需要公投，他就跟你扯我們又沒有廢死，對於一致決這個問題我有意見，跟我國有無廢死有什麼關係？第二個，他說我們有執行一個死刑啊，怎麼會叫我國廢除死刑？這更是法盲的人講的話，因為執行死刑是對於確定判決去執行死刑，能不能下判決是根本還沒有確定判決啊，一審、二審、三審那個叫做判決，所以有沒有一致決，是在法官審理案件的時候能不能夠下這樣的判決，這跟判決確定的案子執行死刑是兩回事嘛！怎麼會講說我國有執行一個死刑，所以我國沒有廢除死刑？這在法律上面的邏輯是不對的，所以他剛剛一直說這個邏輯怎麼樣，我想應該不是邏輯有瑕疵的問題，而是講話的人自己邏輯混亂，他自己邏輯搞不清楚，事實上這兩個東西是完全不同，我想各位在場的一定聽得懂我在講什麼，那有的委員聽不懂就算了，我過去一年已經很努力，但我發現努力對某些人是沒有效果的。","所以次長，剛剛你回答那個部分，我在那邊聽，我覺得這兩個東西無關啦，所以我不這麼認同。因為廢除死刑與否，我從來沒有說死刑被宣告違憲或廢除，我們是對於所謂的判決中加一致決這個部分，我們希望聽取人民的觀念，但是有一些無良的政客，他們就喜歡帶風向，一直騙人民說我國死刑沒有廢除啊，你在公投什麼？然後就亂扯說這是對於一個沒有存在的東西去進行公投，我覺得這都在騙人民啦，這是現在這些政客們每天的工作目的，就是一直在騙人民，但我對我自己的要求是不說謊、講實話，今天這個東西即使我講出來對自己不利，我們還是得說實話，我不會像有些政客只為了達到某些目的就胡說八道。就像他們對外說昨天晚上開會叫做突襲，拜託，民眾黨昨天白天就已經送出提案說會議要延長到晚上12點，如果是被突襲的話，還會有幾個人拿著牌子在那邊說會議無效嗎？還有時間去準備那個牌子？事實上，昨天在吃晚餐便當的時候，他們就站一排在那裡準備要衝進來，我們也都看到，只是我不想跟這些每天造謠說謊的政客混在一起，如果這些造謠說謊的政客就是我國的中央民意代表的話，那其實是中華民國的悲哀，因為你中央民意代表每天就是說謊，一路以來，不管是這次談論公投、不管是預算的審查等等，在外面就是鬼扯淡、胡說八道，然後連總統、各部會首長都在騙人，這真的難以想像。我以前以為行政機關最多做到美化數據，至少說出來不會是說謊，但是到現在，譬如洪申翰部長說育兒津貼被刪光，結果後來發現一毛都沒有刪，然後他說不是，我是口誤。這個社會充斥了這種謊言，那這個國家該怎麼辦？這是我的感覺。","不好意思，回到剛剛我說的，就是有關軍事審判這個部分，我還是必須這樣講，因為這些軍人都是我們的小孩，這是我們的小孩，也是我們的國人，今天讓他受到更完整的程序保障，錯在哪裡？不要什麼東西都為了選票，把意識形態拉進來，其實那個是對不起我們的子子孫孫。","請刑事局跟司法院先回去。","最後一個小東西，不好意思，耽誤大家時間。次長，你也是檢察官出身，我也是檢察官出身，次長以前就是我們的長官，我們都非常尊重、尊敬次長，有關北檢於今年3月12號及10月22號的北檢新聞稿談論有關一位檢察官到醫院就訊沈姓被告這件事情，我想請教一下，但我前提先說，這個案子已經起訴在法院審理中，所以法務部檢察官現在不是承辦人，不要再像上一次開會時，有某幾個立委在那邊喊：干涉個案、怎麼可以詢問個案。一個已經起訴的案件，現在就不是由法務部承辦中了，因此，跟法務部就這個案子的程序瑕疵去討論通案該怎麼解決，不這麼做才是對不起立法委員這個身分！怎麼會在那邊喊說干預個案，還大呼小叫？我覺得這個水準也很不夠，也是一個法盲。我在這邊請教一下，當天林姓檢察官去現場到底是訊問？還是去視察？過去五年內，到底有多少檢察官去視察醫院？我想請教一下次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：113年10月11日這一次有訊問，也有做筆錄；113年10月14日這一次是視察，兩次辯護人都在場。"],["吳委員宗憲：我對辯護人在場沒有意見。以10月11日這次來說……你還沒有回答我的第二個問題。請問過去五年，全國有多少檢察官去視察醫院，而且有踐行視察程序？"],["徐次長錫祥：看守所的醫院沒有，然後……"],["吳委員宗憲：不是看守所，不要跟我講看守所。"],["徐次長錫祥：然後醫院的部分沒有。"],["吳委員宗憲：不要說過去五年，過去二十年呢？我跟次長報告，可能我才疏學淺，但在我自己二十年的檢察官生涯裡，我從來沒做過、也沒聽過有同仁去醫院，且是正規的醫院做視察場所的視察動作！視察跟做筆錄完全不一樣！視察是針對這個處所到底適不適合在押被告，他在那邊會不會受到人格、人性尊嚴上的侵害，所以兩個是不一樣的東西，你卻混在一起講！我覺得今天之所以造成那麼大的民眾糾紛的原因就在這裡，而每一個糾紛都對司法傷害很重！所以我想請問，過去二十年有人這麼做嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：醫院視察的部分沒有。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，這就是我講的，而且是再三地講：過去二十年沒有這樣的例子！所以你們不要跟我們說看守所等等的視察，那是日常在做的。視察也有視察報告，也就是會帶書記官去進行，視察報告都會做得很清楚，會通知法院、會呈報長官，這是該做的基本作為。因此我們可以確認一件事：過去二十年，除了這位檢察官曾經做過之外，全國沒有檢察官做過這種事！我問過一堆同學，他們連聽都沒有聽過這樣做的！因為這樣，所以容易讓人家有意見，而對於高度爭議案件更容易發生糾紛。我不是要譴責那位檢察官，我只是想請次長注意一下，尤其是高度爭議案件、政治案件，對於程序的要求要檢察官更嚴謹。檢察官千萬不能為了辦案，為了辦出一個案子升遷……不要說辦出案子升遷，為了辦出一個有成就感的案子而在程序部分亂做，我覺得這是不對的，好不好？次長，這部分要麻煩你們，希望你們一定要做到。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：如果是去訊問，請問訊問過程有沒有全程錄音、錄影？這點也必須要求全國檢察官一定要做到。","不好意思，最後三十秒。我給你們看Threads上一個檢察官自己寫的，他認為就訊就是日常。今天為什麼會發生這種事情？就是因為有檢察官濫用就訊作為，導致全國檢察官，包括司法受到人民的不信任！法務部真的要出來處理這件事情，不能放任檢察官在做任何一個案子的偵查時……我不論他有沒有政治目的，這些我都不論。檢察官辦案成功雖然會有成就感，但不能為了成就感而去侵害被告的基本人權，這是完全不對的，這部分再麻煩。這是Threads上其他檢察官寫的，遑論檢察官論壇裡有非常多檢察官在批評這件事。不好意思，耽誤大家時間，謝謝次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：謝謝委員。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：下一位是蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員。","接下來我們請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":246,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-4","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","黃國昌","王義川","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","王鴻薇"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅智強等\n17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「刑事\n訴訟法第二百零五條之二、第二百零五條之三及第二百零五條之四條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n林楚茵等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143101_00004"}}}