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\"另外一個案例是總統府的憲兵翻拍相關的密件賣給中國一樣被滲透一樣有相關的討論那我剛剛特別拜託說我們不要從個案切入因為今天在這個會場你們也不適合針對個案做相關的評論跟討論可是我們就相關司法系統來看我們看到相關的問題是說過往很多人可能會認為一個可能有量刑太輕的問題\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"另\", \"start\": 115.731, \"end\": 115.751, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 115.751, \"end\": 115.771, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 115.771, \"end\": 115.791, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 115.791, \"end\": 115.811, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 115.811, \"end\": 115.831, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 115.831, \"end\": 115.851, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 115.851, \"end\": 115.871, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 115.871, \"end\": 115.891, \"score\": 0.01}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"兵\", \"start\": 115.891, \"end\": 115.911, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"翻\", \"start\": 115.911, \"end\": 115.931, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"拍\", \"start\": 115.931, \"end\": 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\"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 664.727, \"end\": 664.967, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 664.967, \"end\": 665.387, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 665.387, \"end\": 665.547, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 665.547, \"end\": 665.727, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 665.727, \"end\": 665.847, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 665.847, \"end\": 665.867, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,926 --> 00:00:32,712\n好謝謝主席那有請司法院跟法務部麻煩司法院法務部委員您好好兩位好喔午安委員好好我想要就我等一下可能會提的是個案但是我希望從通案的部分我們來討論好不好我們不要進入個案但是我的投影片會用個案來舉例喔第一個例子指的是這個新聞是2025年3月的台灣退役軍官再報泄密案\n\n2\n00:00:33,192 --> 00:00:56,779\n那當時其實在相關的案件調查當中就有很多人提醒整個國安系統說過往我們可能以為只有高階軍官會受到影響會受到滲透會受到吸收但是他們發現在越來越多的案例當中其實觸角都已經延伸到第一階的軍官那甚至在這個案例當中還有相關的這個研究員指出說不僅到\n\n3\n00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:18,888\n低階的軍官甚至呢連金流的方法都變得多元了所以在查緝上也有一些新的想像必須要開展那另外國人對這件事情的警覺性也很低所以很多人都提出相關的擔憂甚至呢曾經擔任過國防部政治作戰局文宣新站處的處長已經退休了他都說從2024年看2024年的統計共諜案的他說數量驚人\n\n4\n00:01:27,651 --> 00:01:54,280\n那我們知道目前他在刑法上他有相關的論述空間可是他認為台灣軍官之所以有這麼多被滲透然後事件層出不窮的原因有一個原因是來自於台灣司法的體系對於情報竊取案件的刑罰太輕缺乏嚴刑峻罰以產生嚇阻效果那我當然只是從2025年報導出來這個案例我們再看下一張\n\n5\n00:01:55,731 --> 00:01:59,514\n另外一個案例是總統府的憲兵翻拍相關的密件賣給中國一樣被滲透一樣有相關的討論那我剛剛特別拜託說我們不要從個案切入因為今天在這個會場你們也不適合針對個案做相關的評論跟討論可是我們就相關司法系統來看我們看到相關的問題是說過往很多人可能會認為一個可能有量刑太輕的問題\n\n6\n00:02:23,154 --> 00:02:37,850\n第二個相關的證據扣合的不是那麼緊密所以呢我們在做後續的判決的時候可能每一個法官的想像或者是檢察官的想像的論述不大一樣那我們怎麼看後續未來修法的可能性好請回答謝謝\n\n7\n00:02:42,706 --> 00:03:12,006\n先跟委員報告就是說那個國家安全法他在那個108年的時候他有個修法那確實就是在修法之前的時候呢他的法定刑並不重可是在修法之後呢他有強化了規範的密度那相對的這些罪行也有提高了他那個法定的刑度那像那個大家所關注的這一個為大陸地區發展組織罪呢他以前修法之前的時候法定刑只有五年以下的有期徒刑\n\n8\n00:03:13,046 --> 00:03:33,103\n就是最高判五年是可是修法之後呢他提升到了那個七年以上的那個有期徒刑那所以就是說在那個修法之後就是我們目前就是我們司法院所有的這些那個判決的那個當中呢修法之後這些刑度相對都已經提高很多了\n\n9\n00:03:33,883 --> 00:03:41,459\n可是你覺得這個相對提高的這個狀態可以符合我們目前台灣所遭遇到這個所謂共諜數量驚人的這個現況嗎就您個人法務上的見解\n\n10\n00:03:46,007 --> 00:04:10,824\n我覺得這個部分確實就是國安他有他的那個專業性那所以這個部分也是我們司法院就是我們也一直在那個因應的也就是剛才有很多委員垂詢說那我們司法院做了哪一些那個措施就是那我們現在就是一直不斷的加強就是說那個法官在那個國安軍事專庭的這個法官他們要充實他們的那個專業性\n\n11\n00:04:12,265 --> 00:04:35,983\n他們如何對這件事情是有敏感度的就好像我們在看很多兒少議題的時候我們發現身邊的大人如果對那個環境的敏感度很低我們就會認為他們可能對於相關事件做出來的處理是不符合我們一般人的想像所以如同剛剛您說的相關的人在做出相關的裁處的時候是不是有相關的敏感度我認為這件事情我們應該要更積極的去面對跟做後續的\n\n12\n00:04:37,644 --> 00:04:59,735\n改進對嗎好那這個部分呢我們就先討論到這邊因為我相信我們後續一定還會有其他的修法動作我們也很希望看到當有這麼多人提醒我們共諜數量驚人它其實危害到台灣的國安系統危害到我們一般人日常生活的時候我都認為我們身為立法委員或者是你們行政機關應該要積極的面對好那我們來看下一個問題昨天這個新聞我相信兩位一定都非常清楚對嗎好\n\n13\n00:05:06,058 --> 00:05:27,559\n我想問一下每一個人對於言論自由的解讀現在不管是民粹或者是不同的政黨的委員或者是不同的等級的民意代表甚至一般的網紅很多人都會對言論自由提出看法我個人認為我們例如說我有行動自由可是我不能因為認為我有行動自由就跑到例如說主席你的家然後說我要住進你家這樣\n\n14\n00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:45,936\n或者是我有行動自由但是我看誰不高興我就打他一巴掌那言論自由這件事情在台灣我認為多年來常常會有誤用或者是誤解的情況導致到這一次都還有人在談言論自由我可不可以問一下在相關的法規範下你們怎麼看言論自由你們怎麼看這次這個案件法務部謝謝\n\n15\n00:05:52,515 --> 00:06:20,313\n委員好我想言論自由是憲法保障的基本人權但是也不是無限上綱那在衡量公共利益跟其他基本人權的保障呢我們還是會用法律來加以限制那現在目前刑法裡面像鼓吹或善惑他能內亂、暴動內患或者是善惑犯罪其實都有處罰的規定那在最簡單的像公然侮辱或者是誹謗這些也都會有相關的刑責\n\n16\n00:06:21,073 --> 00:06:36,121\n所以這種考量之下是會用法律加以規範的好謝謝你的回答謝謝你特別提到刑法因為這一次我們確實台灣內政部只對芽芽做出行政處分就是請她因為她是一親她並不是台灣的公民也不是台灣的國民所以我們只有請她離境\n\n17\n00:06:37,102 --> 00:06:58,977\n我們其實沒有動用到任何跟刑法有關的部分但是我非常謝謝法務部剛提到刑法的部分我覺得這是很重要對於國人的提醒對於相關言論自由定義的提醒這個釐清我認為非常的重要謝謝您的回答我們來看另外一個我們辦公室所長期關心的議題就是關於1085條這件事情我知道我們在去年前年\n\n18\n00:07:00,218 --> 00:07:20,930\n應該有公告要修正對嗎但是後來沒有相關的進度我們可不可以問一下目前的進度跟可能遇到的困境1085條就是家長對於兒少的管教權這件事情我們是不是現在要確定一下進度主席時間可以幫我暫停一下嗎\n\n19\n00:07:22,441 --> 00:07:27,149\n言先暫停暫停好讓他們找一下對的幕僚來回答謝謝主席謝謝\n\n20\n00:07:33,513 --> 00:07:37,216\n所以現在的態度是傾向修法嗎就是這個修法的方向你們可不可以告訴我確切的唸出來你們修法條文的內容\n\n21\n00:07:55,228 --> 00:08:21,295\n好1085條父母保護及教養未成年子女應考量子女之年齡及發展程度尊重子女之人格不得對子女為身心暴力行為好就是最後這一句不得為子女為身心暴力之行為所以之前就有非常多的家長聯盟一些公民團體出來開記者會說他們如果沒有打小孩的權利他們就不知道怎麼教小孩了當時我在教育法委員會我們就告訴教育部說\n\n22\n00:08:23,555 --> 00:08:48,957\n長期以來教育部必須要協助家長進行家庭教育這一塊那如果你們已經送進立法院了那是不是後續法務部這邊怎麼協同教育部做一個跨部會的討論協助家長協助社區協助學校讓大人們學會好好的對待小孩的方法而不是因為收了那一句話叫做不得對兒童有身心相關\n\n23\n00:09:10,547 --> 00:09:35,797\n如果說因為宣導的話教育部衛福部如果有需要我們保護部到場或者是協助我們一定會樂意的配合他們一定需要啦那我們一定會到場配合因為你們修這個法其實最頭痛的應該是教育部因為教育部他們有忠誠教育師他們長期必須要做家庭教育那甚至在學校裡面那我想問一下在學校裡面也適用於這一條嗎在學校裡面\n\n24\n00:09:37,257 --> 00:09:59,180\n因為我們這個是談家長的部分對不對老師沒有這個權利為什麼我要談這件事情因為家長可能就會做出一件我們可能覺得有一點不能理解但可能對家長來說他可能要找一個出口他可能就會去告訴學校老師說現在法律說我不能打小孩那不然小孩如果在學校很多不好管教的老師就交給你打這樣子\n\n25\n00:10:00,922 --> 00:10:22,397\n大家都笑了嘛所以大家都認同這個是很有可能發生的社會現象喔民法1085條這個懲戒權只有父母有老師沒有老師絕對沒有懲戒權沒錯沒錯所以我是要拜託法務部我們之後教育部一定會遇到這個問題因為我在家庭教育做超過十幾年我知道一定會有這個困境所以我在這邊正式提出就是要拜託法務部跟教育部\n\n26\n00:10:22,757 --> 00:10:36,434\n你們兩個部會一定要坐下來好好討論開跨部會協調會議如何在你們這個相關修法的配套後有沒有相關的資源相關的可能性去跟教育部討論開啟啟動更多家庭教育方案來協助社區的家長是好\n\n27\n00:10:37,856 --> 00:11:05,867\n那如果你們開跨部會會議有困難是不是我們辦公室也可以主動來找你們一起召開是好那最後一個我的主張就很清楚最後一張就是1085的修正絕對是好事希望你們不要退縮但是如何協助教育部協助更多的家長透過教育部的系統去協助社區更多家長我認為是我們未來一起努力的目標立法委員不能只是要了這個法修了這個法但是相關的配套我們一起來努力好不好好謝謝法務部謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4926\t32712\t好 謝謝主席那有請司法院跟法務部麻煩司法院法務部委員您好好 兩位好喔 午安委員好好 我想要就我等一下可能會提的是個案但是我希望從通案的部分我們來討論好不好我們不要進入個案但是我的投影片會用個案來舉例喔第一個例子指的是這個新聞是2025年3月的台灣退役軍官再報泄密案\n33192\t56779\t那當時其實在相關的案件調查當中就有很多人提醒整個國安系統說過往我們可能以為只有高階軍官會受到影響會受到滲透會受到吸收但是他們發現在越來越多的案例當中其實觸角都已經延伸到第一階的軍官那甚至在這個案例當中還有相關的這個研究員指出說不僅到\n59160\t78888\t低階的軍官甚至呢連金流的方法都變得多元了所以在查緝上也有一些新的想像必須要開展那另外國人對這件事情的警覺性也很低所以很多人都提出相關的擔憂甚至呢曾經擔任過國防部政治作戰局文宣新站處的處長已經退休了他都說從2024年看2024年的統計共諜案的他說數量驚人\n87651\t114280\t那我們知道目前他在刑法上他有相關的論述空間可是他認為台灣軍官之所以有這麼多被滲透然後事件層出不窮的原因有一個原因是來自於台灣司法的體系對於情報竊取案件的刑罰太輕缺乏嚴刑峻罰以產生嚇阻效果那我當然只是從2025年報導出來這個案例我們再看下一張\n115731\t119514\t另外一個案例是總統府的憲兵翻拍相關的密件賣給中國一樣被滲透一樣有相關的討論那我剛剛特別拜託說我們不要從個案切入因為今天在這個會場你們也不適合針對個案做相關的評論跟討論可是我們就相關司法系統來看我們看到相關的問題是說過往很多人可能會認為一個可能有量刑太輕的問題\n143154\t157850\t第二個相關的證據扣合的不是那麼緊密所以呢我們在做後續的判決的時候可能每一個法官的想像或者是檢察官的想像的論述不大一樣那我們怎麼看後續未來修法的可能性好 請回答 謝謝\n162706\t192006\t先跟委員報告就是說那個國家安全法他在那個108年的時候他有個修法那確實就是在修法之前的時候呢他的法定刑並不重可是在修法之後呢他有強化了規範的密度那相對的這些罪行也有提高了他那個法定的刑度那像那個大家所關注的這一個為大陸地區發展組織罪呢他以前修法之前的時候法定刑只有五年以下的有期徒刑\n193046\t213103\t就是最高判五年 是可是修法之後呢他提升到了那個七年以上的那個有期徒刑那所以就是說在那個修法之後就是我們目前就是我們司法院所有的這些那個判決的那個當中呢修法之後這些刑度相對都已經提高很多了\n213883\t221459\t可是你覺得這個相對提高的這個狀態可以符合我們目前台灣所遭遇到這個所謂共諜數量驚人的這個現況嗎就您個人法務上的見解\n226007\t250824\t我覺得這個部分確實就是國安他有他的那個專業性那所以這個部分也是我們司法院就是我們也一直在那個因應的也就是剛才有很多委員垂詢說那我們司法院做了哪一些那個措施就是那我們現在就是一直不斷的加強就是說那個法官在那個國安軍事專庭的這個法官他們要充實他們的那個專業性\n252265\t275983\t他們如何對這件事情是有敏感度的就好像我們在看很多兒少議題的時候我們發現身邊的大人如果對那個環境的敏感度很低我們就會認為他們可能對於相關事件做出來的處理是不符合我們一般人的想像所以如同剛剛您說的相關的人在做出相關的裁處的時候是不是有相關的敏感度我認為這件事情我們應該要更積極的去面對跟做後續的\n277644\t299735\t改進 對嗎好那這個部分呢我們就先討論到這邊因為我相信我們後續一定還會有其他的修法動作我們也很希望看到當有這麼多人提醒我們共諜數量驚人它其實危害到台灣的國安系統危害到我們一般人日常生活的時候我都認為我們身為立法委員或者是你們行政機關應該要積極的面對好那我們來看下一個問題昨天這個新聞我相信兩位一定都非常清楚 對嗎好\n306058\t327559\t我想問一下每一個人對於言論自由的解讀現在不管是民粹或者是不同的政黨的委員或者是不同的等級的民意代表甚至一般的網紅很多人都會對言論自由提出看法我個人認為我們例如說我有行動自由可是我不能因為認為我有行動自由就跑到例如說主席你的家然後說我要住進你家這樣\n328160\t345936\t或者是我有行動自由但是我看誰不高興我就打他一巴掌那言論自由這件事情在台灣我認為多年來常常會有誤用或者是誤解的情況導致到這一次都還有人在談言論自由我可不可以問一下在相關的法規範下你們怎麼看言論自由你們怎麼看這次這個案件法務部 謝謝\n352515\t380313\t委員好我想言論自由是憲法保障的基本人權但是也不是無限上綱那在衡量公共利益跟其他基本人權的保障呢我們還是會用法律來加以限制那現在目前刑法裡面像鼓吹或善惑他能內亂、暴動內患或者是善惑犯罪其實都有處罰的規定那在最簡單的像公然侮辱或者是誹謗這些也都會有相關的刑責\n381073\t396121\t所以這種考量之下是會用法律加以規範的好 謝謝你的回答謝謝你特別提到刑法因為這一次我們確實台灣內政部只對芽芽做出行政處分就是請她因為她是一親她並不是台灣的公民也不是台灣的國民所以我們只有請她離境\n397102\t418977\t我們其實沒有動用到任何跟刑法有關的部分但是我非常謝謝法務部剛提到刑法的部分我覺得這是很重要對於國人的提醒對於相關言論自由定義的提醒這個釐清我認為非常的重要謝謝您的回答我們來看另外一個我們辦公室所長期關心的議題就是關於1085條這件事情我知道我們在去年前年\n420218\t440930\t應該有公告要修正 對嗎但是後來沒有相關的進度我們可不可以問一下目前的進度跟可能遇到的困境1085條就是家長對於兒少的管教權這件事情我們是不是現在要確定一下進度主席時間可以幫我暫停一下嗎\n442441\t447149\t言先暫停 暫停好 讓他們找一下對的幕僚來回答 謝謝主席 謝謝\n453513\t457216\t所以現在的態度是傾向修法嗎就是這個修法的方向你們可不可以告訴我確切的唸出來你們修法條文的內容\n475228\t501295\t好1085條父母保護及教養未成年子女應考量子女之年齡及發展程度尊重子女之人格不得對子女為身心暴力行為好就是最後這一句不得為子女為身心暴力之行為所以之前就有非常多的家長聯盟一些公民團體出來開記者會說他們如果沒有打小孩的權利他們就不知道怎麼教小孩了當時我在教育法委員會我們就告訴教育部說\n503555\t528957\t長期以來教育部必須要協助家長進行家庭教育這一塊那如果你們已經送進立法院了那是不是後續法務部這邊怎麼協同教育部做一個跨部會的討論協助家長協助社區協助學校讓大人們學會好好的對待小孩的方法而不是因為收了那一句話叫做不得對兒童有身心相關\n529838\t549787\t謝謝\n550547\t575797\t如果說因為宣導的話教育部衛福部如果有需要我們保護部到場或者是協助我們一定會樂意的配合他們一定需要啦那我們一定會到場配合因為你們修這個法其實最頭痛的應該是教育部因為教育部他們有忠誠教育師他們長期必須要做家庭教育那甚至在學校裡面那我想問一下在學校裡面也適用於這一條嗎在學校裡面\n577257\t599180\t因為我們這個是談家長的部分對不對老師沒有這個權利為什麼我要談這件事情因為家長可能就會做出一件我們可能覺得有一點不能理解但可能對家長來說他可能要找一個出口他可能就會去告訴學校老師說現在法律說我不能打小孩那不然小孩如果在學校很多不好管教的老師就交給你打這樣子\n600922\t622397\t大家都笑了嘛所以大家都認同這個是很有可能發生的社會現象喔民法1085條這個懲戒權只有父母有老師沒有老師絕對沒有懲戒權沒錯沒錯所以我是要拜託法務部我們之後教育部一定會遇到這個問題因為我在家庭教育做超過十幾年我知道一定會有這個困境所以我在這邊正式提出就是要拜託法務部跟教育部\n622757\t636434\t你們兩個部會一定要坐下來好好討論開跨部會協調會議如何在你們這個相關修法的配套後有沒有相關的資源相關的可能性去跟教育部討論開啟啟動更多家庭教育方案來協助社區的家長是好\n637856\t665867\t那如果你們開跨部會會議有困難是不是我們辦公室也可以主動來找你們一起召開是好那最後一個我的主張就很清楚最後一張就是1085的修正絕對是好事希望你們不要退縮但是如何協助教育部協助更多的家長透過教育部的系統去協助社區更多家長我認為是我們未來一起努力的目標立法委員不能只是要了這個法修了這個法但是相關的配套我們一起來努力好不好好謝謝法務部謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝委員\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席那有請司法院跟法務部麻煩司法院法務部委員您好好 兩位好喔 午安委員好好 我想要就我等一下可能會提的是個案但是我希望從通案的部分我們來討論好不好我們不要進入個案但是我的投影片會用個案來舉例喔第一個例子指的是這個新聞是2025年3月的台灣退役軍官再報泄密案\n那當時其實在相關的案件調查當中就有很多人提醒整個國安系統說過往我們可能以為只有高階軍官會受到影響會受到滲透會受到吸收但是他們發現在越來越多的案例當中其實觸角都已經延伸到第一階的軍官那甚至在這個案例當中還有相關的這個研究員指出說不僅到\n低階的軍官甚至呢連金流的方法都變得多元了所以在查緝上也有一些新的想像必須要開展那另外國人對這件事情的警覺性也很低所以很多人都提出相關的擔憂甚至呢曾經擔任過國防部政治作戰局文宣新站處的處長已經退休了他都說從2024年看2024年的統計共諜案的他說數量驚人\n那我們知道目前他在刑法上他有相關的論述空間可是他認為台灣軍官之所以有這麼多被滲透然後事件層出不窮的原因有一個原因是來自於台灣司法的體系對於情報竊取案件的刑罰太輕缺乏嚴刑峻罰以產生嚇阻效果那我當然只是從2025年報導出來這個案例我們再看下一張\n另外一個案例是總統府的憲兵翻拍相關的密件賣給中國一樣被滲透一樣有相關的討論那我剛剛特別拜託說我們不要從個案切入因為今天在這個會場你們也不適合針對個案做相關的評論跟討論可是我們就相關司法系統來看我們看到相關的問題是說過往很多人可能會認為一個可能有量刑太輕的問題\n第二個相關的證據扣合的不是那麼緊密所以呢我們在做後續的判決的時候可能每一個法官的想像或者是檢察官的想像的論述不大一樣那我們怎麼看後續未來修法的可能性好 請回答 謝謝\n先跟委員報告就是說那個國家安全法他在那個108年的時候他有個修法那確實就是在修法之前的時候呢他的法定刑並不重可是在修法之後呢他有強化了規範的密度那相對的這些罪行也有提高了他那個法定的刑度那像那個大家所關注的這一個為大陸地區發展組織罪呢他以前修法之前的時候法定刑只有五年以下的有期徒刑\n就是最高判五年 是可是修法之後呢他提升到了那個七年以上的那個有期徒刑那所以就是說在那個修法之後就是我們目前就是我們司法院所有的這些那個判決的那個當中呢修法之後這些刑度相對都已經提高很多了\n可是你覺得這個相對提高的這個狀態可以符合我們目前台灣所遭遇到這個所謂共諜數量驚人的這個現況嗎就您個人法務上的見解\n我覺得這個部分確實就是國安他有他的那個專業性那所以這個部分也是我們司法院就是我們也一直在那個因應的也就是剛才有很多委員垂詢說那我們司法院做了哪一些那個措施就是那我們現在就是一直不斷的加強就是說那個法官在那個國安軍事專庭的這個法官他們要充實他們的那個專業性\n他們如何對這件事情是有敏感度的就好像我們在看很多兒少議題的時候我們發現身邊的大人如果對那個環境的敏感度很低我們就會認為他們可能對於相關事件做出來的處理是不符合我們一般人的想像所以如同剛剛您說的相關的人在做出相關的裁處的時候是不是有相關的敏感度我認為這件事情我們應該要更積極的去面對跟做後續的\n改進 對嗎好那這個部分呢我們就先討論到這邊因為我相信我們後續一定還會有其他的修法動作我們也很希望看到當有這麼多人提醒我們共諜數量驚人它其實危害到台灣的國安系統危害到我們一般人日常生活的時候我都認為我們身為立法委員或者是你們行政機關應該要積極的面對好那我們來看下一個問題昨天這個新聞我相信兩位一定都非常清楚 對嗎好\n我想問一下每一個人對於言論自由的解讀現在不管是民粹或者是不同的政黨的委員或者是不同的等級的民意代表甚至一般的網紅很多人都會對言論自由提出看法我個人認為我們例如說我有行動自由可是我不能因為認為我有行動自由就跑到例如說主席你的家然後說我要住進你家這樣\n或者是我有行動自由但是我看誰不高興我就打他一巴掌那言論自由這件事情在台灣我認為多年來常常會有誤用或者是誤解的情況導致到這一次都還有人在談言論自由我可不可以問一下在相關的法規範下你們怎麼看言論自由你們怎麼看這次這個案件法務部 謝謝\n委員好我想言論自由是憲法保障的基本人權但是也不是無限上綱那在衡量公共利益跟其他基本人權的保障呢我們還是會用法律來加以限制那現在目前刑法裡面像鼓吹或善惑他能內亂、暴動內患或者是善惑犯罪其實都有處罰的規定那在最簡單的像公然侮辱或者是誹謗這些也都會有相關的刑責\n所以這種考量之下是會用法律加以規範的好 謝謝你的回答謝謝你特別提到刑法因為這一次我們確實台灣內政部只對芽芽做出行政處分就是請她因為她是一親她並不是台灣的公民也不是台灣的國民所以我們只有請她離境\n我們其實沒有動用到任何跟刑法有關的部分但是我非常謝謝法務部剛提到刑法的部分我覺得這是很重要對於國人的提醒對於相關言論自由定義的提醒這個釐清我認為非常的重要謝謝您的回答我們來看另外一個我們辦公室所長期關心的議題就是關於1085條這件事情我知道我們在去年前年\n應該有公告要修正 對嗎但是後來沒有相關的進度我們可不可以問一下目前的進度跟可能遇到的困境1085條就是家長對於兒少的管教權這件事情我們是不是現在要確定一下進度主席時間可以幫我暫停一下嗎\n言先暫停 暫停好 讓他們找一下對的幕僚來回答 謝謝主席 謝謝\n所以現在的態度是傾向修法嗎就是這個修法的方向你們可不可以告訴我確切的唸出來你們修法條文的內容\n好1085條父母保護及教養未成年子女應考量子女之年齡及發展程度尊重子女之人格不得對子女為身心暴力行為好就是最後這一句不得為子女為身心暴力之行為所以之前就有非常多的家長聯盟一些公民團體出來開記者會說他們如果沒有打小孩的權利他們就不知道怎麼教小孩了當時我在教育法委員會我們就告訴教育部說\n長期以來教育部必須要協助家長進行家庭教育這一塊那如果你們已經送進立法院了那是不是後續法務部這邊怎麼協同教育部做一個跨部會的討論協助家長協助社區協助學校讓大人們學會好好的對待小孩的方法而不是因為收了那一句話叫做不得對兒童有身心相關\n謝謝\n如果說因為宣導的話教育部衛福部如果有需要我們保護部到場或者是協助我們一定會樂意的配合他們一定需要啦那我們一定會到場配合因為你們修這個法其實最頭痛的應該是教育部因為教育部他們有忠誠教育師他們長期必須要做家庭教育那甚至在學校裡面那我想問一下在學校裡面也適用於這一條嗎在學校裡面\n因為我們這個是談家長的部分對不對老師沒有這個權利為什麼我要談這件事情因為家長可能就會做出一件我們可能覺得有一點不能理解但可能對家長來說他可能要找一個出口他可能就會去告訴學校老師說現在法律說我不能打小孩那不然小孩如果在學校很多不好管教的老師就交給你打這樣子\n大家都笑了嘛所以大家都認同這個是很有可能發生的社會現象喔民法1085條這個懲戒權只有父母有老師沒有老師絕對沒有懲戒權沒錯沒錯所以我是要拜託法務部我們之後教育部一定會遇到這個問題因為我在家庭教育做超過十幾年我知道一定會有這個困境所以我在這邊正式提出就是要拜託法務部跟教育部\n你們兩個部會一定要坐下來好好討論開跨部會協調會議如何在你們這個相關修法的配套後有沒有相關的資源相關的可能性去跟教育部討論開啟啟動更多家庭教育方案來協助社區的家長是好\n那如果你們開跨部會會議有困難是不是我們辦公室也可以主動來找你們一起召開是好那最後一個我的主張就很清楚最後一張就是1085的修正絕對是好事希望你們不要退縮但是如何協助教育部協助更多的家長透過教育部的系統去協助社區更多家長我認為是我們未來一起努力的目標立法委員不能只是要了這個法修了這個法但是相關的配套我們一起來努力好不好好謝謝法務部謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.926 --> 00:32.712\n好謝謝主席那有請司法院跟法務部麻煩司法院法務部委員您好好兩位好喔午安委員好好我想要就我等一下可能會提的是個案但是我希望從通案的部分我們來討論好不好我們不要進入個案但是我的投影片會用個案來舉例喔第一個例子指的是這個新聞是2025年3月的台灣退役軍官再報泄密案\n\n00:33.192 --> 00:56.779\n那當時其實在相關的案件調查當中就有很多人提醒整個國安系統說過往我們可能以為只有高階軍官會受到影響會受到滲透會受到吸收但是他們發現在越來越多的案例當中其實觸角都已經延伸到第一階的軍官那甚至在這個案例當中還有相關的這個研究員指出說不僅到\n\n00:59.160 --> 01:18.888\n低階的軍官甚至呢連金流的方法都變得多元了所以在查緝上也有一些新的想像必須要開展那另外國人對這件事情的警覺性也很低所以很多人都提出相關的擔憂甚至呢曾經擔任過國防部政治作戰局文宣新站處的處長已經退休了他都說從2024年看2024年的統計共諜案的他說數量驚人\n\n01:27.651 --> 01:54.280\n那我們知道目前他在刑法上他有相關的論述空間可是他認為台灣軍官之所以有這麼多被滲透然後事件層出不窮的原因有一個原因是來自於台灣司法的體系對於情報竊取案件的刑罰太輕缺乏嚴刑峻罰以產生嚇阻效果那我當然只是從2025年報導出來這個案例我們再看下一張\n\n01:55.731 --> 01:59.514\n另外一個案例是總統府的憲兵翻拍相關的密件賣給中國一樣被滲透一樣有相關的討論那我剛剛特別拜託說我們不要從個案切入因為今天在這個會場你們也不適合針對個案做相關的評論跟討論可是我們就相關司法系統來看我們看到相關的問題是說過往很多人可能會認為一個可能有量刑太輕的問題\n\n02:23.154 --> 02:37.850\n第二個相關的證據扣合的不是那麼緊密所以呢我們在做後續的判決的時候可能每一個法官的想像或者是檢察官的想像的論述不大一樣那我們怎麼看後續未來修法的可能性好請回答謝謝\n\n02:42.706 --> 03:12.006\n先跟委員報告就是說那個國家安全法他在那個108年的時候他有個修法那確實就是在修法之前的時候呢他的法定刑並不重可是在修法之後呢他有強化了規範的密度那相對的這些罪行也有提高了他那個法定的刑度那像那個大家所關注的這一個為大陸地區發展組織罪呢他以前修法之前的時候法定刑只有五年以下的有期徒刑\n\n03:13.046 --> 03:33.103\n就是最高判五年是可是修法之後呢他提升到了那個七年以上的那個有期徒刑那所以就是說在那個修法之後就是我們目前就是我們司法院所有的這些那個判決的那個當中呢修法之後這些刑度相對都已經提高很多了\n\n03:33.883 --> 03:41.459\n可是你覺得這個相對提高的這個狀態可以符合我們目前台灣所遭遇到這個所謂共諜數量驚人的這個現況嗎就您個人法務上的見解\n\n03:46.007 --> 04:10.824\n我覺得這個部分確實就是國安他有他的那個專業性那所以這個部分也是我們司法院就是我們也一直在那個因應的也就是剛才有很多委員垂詢說那我們司法院做了哪一些那個措施就是那我們現在就是一直不斷的加強就是說那個法官在那個國安軍事專庭的這個法官他們要充實他們的那個專業性\n\n04:12.265 --> 04:35.983\n他們如何對這件事情是有敏感度的就好像我們在看很多兒少議題的時候我們發現身邊的大人如果對那個環境的敏感度很低我們就會認為他們可能對於相關事件做出來的處理是不符合我們一般人的想像所以如同剛剛您說的相關的人在做出相關的裁處的時候是不是有相關的敏感度我認為這件事情我們應該要更積極的去面對跟做後續的\n\n04:37.644 --> 04:59.735\n改進對嗎好那這個部分呢我們就先討論到這邊因為我相信我們後續一定還會有其他的修法動作我們也很希望看到當有這麼多人提醒我們共諜數量驚人它其實危害到台灣的國安系統危害到我們一般人日常生活的時候我都認為我們身為立法委員或者是你們行政機關應該要積極的面對好那我們來看下一個問題昨天這個新聞我相信兩位一定都非常清楚對嗎好\n\n05:06.058 --> 05:27.559\n我想問一下每一個人對於言論自由的解讀現在不管是民粹或者是不同的政黨的委員或者是不同的等級的民意代表甚至一般的網紅很多人都會對言論自由提出看法我個人認為我們例如說我有行動自由可是我不能因為認為我有行動自由就跑到例如說主席你的家然後說我要住進你家這樣\n\n05:28.160 --> 05:45.936\n或者是我有行動自由但是我看誰不高興我就打他一巴掌那言論自由這件事情在台灣我認為多年來常常會有誤用或者是誤解的情況導致到這一次都還有人在談言論自由我可不可以問一下在相關的法規範下你們怎麼看言論自由你們怎麼看這次這個案件法務部謝謝\n\n05:52.515 --> 06:20.313\n委員好我想言論自由是憲法保障的基本人權但是也不是無限上綱那在衡量公共利益跟其他基本人權的保障呢我們還是會用法律來加以限制那現在目前刑法裡面像鼓吹或善惑他能內亂、暴動內患或者是善惑犯罪其實都有處罰的規定那在最簡單的像公然侮辱或者是誹謗這些也都會有相關的刑責\n\n06:21.073 --> 06:36.121\n所以這種考量之下是會用法律加以規範的好謝謝你的回答謝謝你特別提到刑法因為這一次我們確實台灣內政部只對芽芽做出行政處分就是請她因為她是一親她並不是台灣的公民也不是台灣的國民所以我們只有請她離境\n\n06:37.102 --> 06:58.977\n我們其實沒有動用到任何跟刑法有關的部分但是我非常謝謝法務部剛提到刑法的部分我覺得這是很重要對於國人的提醒對於相關言論自由定義的提醒這個釐清我認為非常的重要謝謝您的回答我們來看另外一個我們辦公室所長期關心的議題就是關於1085條這件事情我知道我們在去年前年\n\n07:00.218 --> 07:20.930\n應該有公告要修正對嗎但是後來沒有相關的進度我們可不可以問一下目前的進度跟可能遇到的困境1085條就是家長對於兒少的管教權這件事情我們是不是現在要確定一下進度主席時間可以幫我暫停一下嗎\n\n07:22.441 --> 07:27.149\n言先暫停暫停好讓他們找一下對的幕僚來回答謝謝主席謝謝\n\n07:33.513 --> 07:37.216\n所以現在的態度是傾向修法嗎就是這個修法的方向你們可不可以告訴我確切的唸出來你們修法條文的內容\n\n07:55.228 --> 08:21.295\n好1085條父母保護及教養未成年子女應考量子女之年齡及發展程度尊重子女之人格不得對子女為身心暴力行為好就是最後這一句不得為子女為身心暴力之行為所以之前就有非常多的家長聯盟一些公民團體出來開記者會說他們如果沒有打小孩的權利他們就不知道怎麼教小孩了當時我在教育法委員會我們就告訴教育部說\n\n08:23.555 --> 08:48.957\n長期以來教育部必須要協助家長進行家庭教育這一塊那如果你們已經送進立法院了那是不是後續法務部這邊怎麼協同教育部做一個跨部會的討論協助家長協助社區協助學校讓大人們學會好好的對待小孩的方法而不是因為收了那一句話叫做不得對兒童有身心相關\n\n09:10.547 --> 09:35.797\n如果說因為宣導的話教育部衛福部如果有需要我們保護部到場或者是協助我們一定會樂意的配合他們一定需要啦那我們一定會到場配合因為你們修這個法其實最頭痛的應該是教育部因為教育部他們有忠誠教育師他們長期必須要做家庭教育那甚至在學校裡面那我想問一下在學校裡面也適用於這一條嗎在學校裡面\n\n09:37.257 --> 09:59.180\n因為我們這個是談家長的部分對不對老師沒有這個權利為什麼我要談這件事情因為家長可能就會做出一件我們可能覺得有一點不能理解但可能對家長來說他可能要找一個出口他可能就會去告訴學校老師說現在法律說我不能打小孩那不然小孩如果在學校很多不好管教的老師就交給你打這樣子\n\n10:00.922 --> 10:22.397\n大家都笑了嘛所以大家都認同這個是很有可能發生的社會現象喔民法1085條這個懲戒權只有父母有老師沒有老師絕對沒有懲戒權沒錯沒錯所以我是要拜託法務部我們之後教育部一定會遇到這個問題因為我在家庭教育做超過十幾年我知道一定會有這個困境所以我在這邊正式提出就是要拜託法務部跟教育部\n\n10:22.757 --> 10:36.434\n你們兩個部會一定要坐下來好好討論開跨部會協調會議如何在你們這個相關修法的配套後有沒有相關的資源相關的可能性去跟教育部討論開啟啟動更多家庭教育方案來協助社區的家長是好\n\n10:37.856 --> 11:05.867\n那如果你們開跨部會會議有困難是不是我們辦公室也可以主動來找你們一起召開是好那最後一個我的主張就很清楚最後一張就是1085的修正絕對是好事希望你們不要退縮但是如何協助教育部協助更多的家長透過教育部的系統去協助社區更多家長我認為是我們未來一起努力的目標立法委員不能只是要了這個法修了這個法但是相關的配套我們一起來努力好不好好謝謝法務部謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.926,"end":32.712,"text":"好 謝謝主席那有請司法院跟法務部麻煩司法院法務部委員您好好 兩位好喔 午安委員好好 我想要就我等一下可能會提的是個案但是我希望從通案的部分我們來討論好不好我們不要進入個案但是我的投影片會用個案來舉例喔第一個例子指的是這個新聞是2025年3月的台灣退役軍官再報泄密案"},{"start":33.192,"end":56.779,"text":"那當時其實在相關的案件調查當中就有很多人提醒整個國安系統說過往我們可能以為只有高階軍官會受到影響會受到滲透會受到吸收但是他們發現在越來越多的案例當中其實觸角都已經延伸到第一階的軍官那甚至在這個案例當中還有相關的這個研究員指出說不僅到"},{"start":59.16,"end":78.888,"text":"低階的軍官甚至呢連金流的方法都變得多元了所以在查緝上也有一些新的想像必須要開展那另外國人對這件事情的警覺性也很低所以很多人都提出相關的擔憂甚至呢曾經擔任過國防部政治作戰局文宣新站處的處長已經退休了他都說從2024年看2024年的統計共諜案的他說數量驚人"},{"start":87.651,"end":114.28,"text":"那我們知道目前他在刑法上他有相關的論述空間可是他認為台灣軍官之所以有這麼多被滲透然後事件層出不窮的原因有一個原因是來自於台灣司法的體系對於情報竊取案件的刑罰太輕缺乏嚴刑峻罰以產生嚇阻效果那我當然只是從2025年報導出來這個案例我們再看下一張"},{"start":115.731,"end":119.514,"text":"另外一個案例是總統府的憲兵翻拍相關的密件賣給中國一樣被滲透一樣有相關的討論那我剛剛特別拜託說我們不要從個案切入因為今天在這個會場你們也不適合針對個案做相關的評論跟討論可是我們就相關司法系統來看我們看到相關的問題是說過往很多人可能會認為一個可能有量刑太輕的問題"},{"start":143.154,"end":157.85,"text":"第二個相關的證據扣合的不是那麼緊密所以呢我們在做後續的判決的時候可能每一個法官的想像或者是檢察官的想像的論述不大一樣那我們怎麼看後續未來修法的可能性好 請回答 謝謝"},{"start":162.706,"end":192.006,"text":"先跟委員報告就是說那個國家安全法他在那個108年的時候他有個修法那確實就是在修法之前的時候呢他的法定刑並不重可是在修法之後呢他有強化了規範的密度那相對的這些罪行也有提高了他那個法定的刑度那像那個大家所關注的這一個為大陸地區發展組織罪呢他以前修法之前的時候法定刑只有五年以下的有期徒刑"},{"start":193.046,"end":213.103,"text":"就是最高判五年 是可是修法之後呢他提升到了那個七年以上的那個有期徒刑那所以就是說在那個修法之後就是我們目前就是我們司法院所有的這些那個判決的那個當中呢修法之後這些刑度相對都已經提高很多了"},{"start":213.883,"end":221.459,"text":"可是你覺得這個相對提高的這個狀態可以符合我們目前台灣所遭遇到這個所謂共諜數量驚人的這個現況嗎就您個人法務上的見解"},{"start":226.007,"end":250.824,"text":"我覺得這個部分確實就是國安他有他的那個專業性那所以這個部分也是我們司法院就是我們也一直在那個因應的也就是剛才有很多委員垂詢說那我們司法院做了哪一些那個措施就是那我們現在就是一直不斷的加強就是說那個法官在那個國安軍事專庭的這個法官他們要充實他們的那個專業性"},{"start":252.265,"end":275.983,"text":"他們如何對這件事情是有敏感度的就好像我們在看很多兒少議題的時候我們發現身邊的大人如果對那個環境的敏感度很低我們就會認為他們可能對於相關事件做出來的處理是不符合我們一般人的想像所以如同剛剛您說的相關的人在做出相關的裁處的時候是不是有相關的敏感度我認為這件事情我們應該要更積極的去面對跟做後續的"},{"start":277.644,"end":299.735,"text":"改進 對嗎好那這個部分呢我們就先討論到這邊因為我相信我們後續一定還會有其他的修法動作我們也很希望看到當有這麼多人提醒我們共諜數量驚人它其實危害到台灣的國安系統危害到我們一般人日常生活的時候我都認為我們身為立法委員或者是你們行政機關應該要積極的面對好那我們來看下一個問題昨天這個新聞我相信兩位一定都非常清楚 對嗎好"},{"start":306.058,"end":327.559,"text":"我想問一下每一個人對於言論自由的解讀現在不管是民粹或者是不同的政黨的委員或者是不同的等級的民意代表甚至一般的網紅很多人都會對言論自由提出看法我個人認為我們例如說我有行動自由可是我不能因為認為我有行動自由就跑到例如說主席你的家然後說我要住進你家這樣"},{"start":328.16,"end":345.936,"text":"或者是我有行動自由但是我看誰不高興我就打他一巴掌那言論自由這件事情在台灣我認為多年來常常會有誤用或者是誤解的情況導致到這一次都還有人在談言論自由我可不可以問一下在相關的法規範下你們怎麼看言論自由你們怎麼看這次這個案件法務部 謝謝"},{"start":352.515,"end":380.313,"text":"委員好我想言論自由是憲法保障的基本人權但是也不是無限上綱那在衡量公共利益跟其他基本人權的保障呢我們還是會用法律來加以限制那現在目前刑法裡面像鼓吹或善惑他能內亂、暴動內患或者是善惑犯罪其實都有處罰的規定那在最簡單的像公然侮辱或者是誹謗這些也都會有相關的刑責"},{"start":381.073,"end":396.121,"text":"所以這種考量之下是會用法律加以規範的好 謝謝你的回答謝謝你特別提到刑法因為這一次我們確實台灣內政部只對芽芽做出行政處分就是請她因為她是一親她並不是台灣的公民也不是台灣的國民所以我們只有請她離境"},{"start":397.102,"end":418.977,"text":"我們其實沒有動用到任何跟刑法有關的部分但是我非常謝謝法務部剛提到刑法的部分我覺得這是很重要對於國人的提醒對於相關言論自由定義的提醒這個釐清我認為非常的重要謝謝您的回答我們來看另外一個我們辦公室所長期關心的議題就是關於1085條這件事情我知道我們在去年前年"},{"start":420.218,"end":440.93,"text":"應該有公告要修正 對嗎但是後來沒有相關的進度我們可不可以問一下目前的進度跟可能遇到的困境1085條就是家長對於兒少的管教權這件事情我們是不是現在要確定一下進度主席時間可以幫我暫停一下嗎"},{"start":442.441,"end":447.149,"text":"言先暫停 暫停好 讓他們找一下對的幕僚來回答 謝謝主席 謝謝"},{"start":453.513,"end":457.216,"text":"所以現在的態度是傾向修法嗎就是這個修法的方向你們可不可以告訴我確切的唸出來你們修法條文的內容"},{"start":475.228,"end":501.295,"text":"好1085條父母保護及教養未成年子女應考量子女之年齡及發展程度尊重子女之人格不得對子女為身心暴力行為好就是最後這一句不得為子女為身心暴力之行為所以之前就有非常多的家長聯盟一些公民團體出來開記者會說他們如果沒有打小孩的權利他們就不知道怎麼教小孩了當時我在教育法委員會我們就告訴教育部說"},{"start":503.555,"end":528.957,"text":"長期以來教育部必須要協助家長進行家庭教育這一塊那如果你們已經送進立法院了那是不是後續法務部這邊怎麼協同教育部做一個跨部會的討論協助家長協助社區協助學校讓大人們學會好好的對待小孩的方法而不是因為收了那一句話叫做不得對兒童有身心相關"},{"start":529.838,"end":549.787,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":550.547,"end":575.797,"text":"如果說因為宣導的話教育部衛福部如果有需要我們保護部到場或者是協助我們一定會樂意的配合他們一定需要啦那我們一定會到場配合因為你們修這個法其實最頭痛的應該是教育部因為教育部他們有忠誠教育師他們長期必須要做家庭教育那甚至在學校裡面那我想問一下在學校裡面也適用於這一條嗎在學校裡面"},{"start":577.257,"end":599.18,"text":"因為我們這個是談家長的部分對不對老師沒有這個權利為什麼我要談這件事情因為家長可能就會做出一件我們可能覺得有一點不能理解但可能對家長來說他可能要找一個出口他可能就會去告訴學校老師說現在法律說我不能打小孩那不然小孩如果在學校很多不好管教的老師就交給你打這樣子"},{"start":600.922,"end":622.397,"text":"大家都笑了嘛所以大家都認同這個是很有可能發生的社會現象喔民法1085條這個懲戒權只有父母有老師沒有老師絕對沒有懲戒權沒錯沒錯所以我是要拜託法務部我們之後教育部一定會遇到這個問題因為我在家庭教育做超過十幾年我知道一定會有這個困境所以我在這邊正式提出就是要拜託法務部跟教育部"},{"start":622.757,"end":636.434,"text":"你們兩個部會一定要坐下來好好討論開跨部會協調會議如何在你們這個相關修法的配套後有沒有相關的資源相關的可能性去跟教育部討論開啟啟動更多家庭教育方案來協助社區的家長是好"},{"start":637.856,"end":665.867,"text":"那如果你們開跨部會會議有困難是不是我們辦公室也可以主動來找你們一起召開是好那最後一個我的主張就很清楚最後一張就是1085的修正絕對是好事希望你們不要退縮但是如何協助教育部協助更多的家長透過教育部的系統去協助社區更多家長我認為是我們未來一起努力的目標立法委員不能只是要了這個法修了這個法但是相關的配套我們一起來努力好不好好謝謝法務部謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":618,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時30分）謝謝主席。有請司法院及法務部，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩司法院、法務部。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員，你好！"],["陳委員培瑜：兩位好，午安！"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好！"],["陳委員培瑜：好！我等一下會提的可能是個案，但是我希望從通案的部分來討論，好不好？我們不要進入個案，但是我的投影片會用個案來舉例。","第一個例子的這個新聞是2025年3月的臺灣退役軍官再爆洩密案。其實當時在相關的案件調查當中，就有很多人提醒整個國安系統，過往我們可能以為只有高階軍官會受到影響、會受到滲透、會受到吸收，但是他們發現，在越來越多案例當中，其實觸角都已經延伸到低階軍官。甚至在這個案例當中，還有相關的研究員指出，不僅到低階軍官，甚至連金流的方法都變得多元，所以在查緝上也有一些新的想像必須要開展。另外，國人對這些事情的警覺性也很低，所以很多人都提出相關的擔憂。甚至曾經擔任過國防部政治作戰局文宣心戰處的處長（他已經退休了）都說，從2024年的統計，共諜案的數量驚人！我們知道，目前在刑法上它有相關的論述空間，可是他認為臺灣軍官之所以有這麼多被滲透、事件層出不窮的一個原因是來自於臺灣的司法體系對於情報竊取案件的刑罰太輕，缺乏嚴刑峻法以產生嚇阻效果。我當然只是從2025年報導出來的這個案例來說。另外一個案例是總統府憲兵翻拍相關密件賣給中國，一樣被滲透，一樣有相關的討論。","我剛剛特別拜託，我們不要從個案切入，因為今天在這個會場，你們也不適合針對個案做相關的評論與討論，可是就相關司法系統來看，我們看到相關的問題是過往很多人會認為第一個、可能有量刑太輕的問題，第二個、相關的證據扣合得不是那麼緊密，所以在做後續判決的時候，每一個法官想像的或者是檢察官想像的論述可能不大一樣，那我們怎麼看未來修法的可能性？請回答，謝謝。"],["王副秘書長梅英：先跟委員報告，國家安全法在108年的時候有修法，確實在修法之前它的法定刑並不重，可是在修法之後它有強化規範的密度，相對的，這些罪刑也有提高法定的刑度，像大家所關注的為大陸地區發展組織罪，修法之前，法定刑只有五年以下的有期徒刑，就是最高判五年，可是修法之後，它提升到七年以上的有期徒刑，所以在那個修法之後，目前我們司法院所有的判決當中，這些刑度相對都提高很多了。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是你覺得這個相對提高的狀態可以符合目前我們臺灣所遭遇到所謂共諜數量驚人的現況嗎？就您個人法務上的見解。"],["王副秘書長梅英：我覺得確實國安有它的專業性，所以這個部分也是我們司法院一直在因應的，也就是剛才有很多委員垂詢我們司法院做了哪一些措施，我們現在就是一直不斷的加強在國安軍事專庭的法官要充實專業性。"],["陳委員培瑜：他們如何對這件事情是有敏感度的，就好像在看很多兒少議題的時候，我們發現，身邊的大人如果對那個環境的敏感度很低，我們就會認為他們可能對於相關事件做出來的處理是不符合我們一般人的想像，所以如同剛剛您說的，相關的人在做出相關裁處的時候，是不是有相關的敏感度？我認為這件事情我們應該更積極地去面對跟做後續的改進，對嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個部分我們就先討論到這邊，因為我相信我們後續一定還會有其他的修法動作，我們也很希望看到，當有這麼多人提醒我們共諜數量驚人，危害到臺灣的國安系統、危害到我們一般人日常生活的時候，我都認為我們身為立法委員，或者是你們行政機關，應該要積極地面對。","我們來看下一個問題，昨天這個新聞我相信兩位一定都非常清楚，對嗎？好，我想問一下每一個人對於言論自由的解讀，現在不管是名嘴或者是不同政黨的委員，或者是不同等級的民意代表，甚至是一般的網紅，很多人都會對言論自由提出看法，我個人認為，例如說我有行動自由，可是我不能因為認為我有行動自由就跑到例如說主席的家，然後說我要住進你家，或者是我有行動自由，我看誰不高興就打他一巴掌。言論自由這件事情在臺灣，我認為多年來常常會有誤用或者是誤解的情況，導致到這一次都還有人在談言論自由。我可不可以問一下，在相關的法規範下，你們怎麼看言論自由，你們怎麼看這次這個案件？法務部，謝謝。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。我想言論自由是憲法保障的基本人權，但也不是無限上綱，在衡量公共利益跟其他基本人權的保障，我們還是會用法律來加以限制，目前刑法裡面像鼓吹或煽惑他人內亂、暴動、外患，或者是煽惑犯罪，其實都有處罰的規定，最簡單的像公然侮辱或者是誹謗，這些也都有相關的刑責，所以在這種考量之下，是會用法律加以規範的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝你的回答，謝謝你特別提到了刑法，因為這一次確實臺灣內政部只對亞亞做出行政處分，因為他是依親，他並不是臺灣的公民，也不是臺灣的國民，所以我們只有請他離境，我們其實沒有動用到任何跟刑法有關的部分，但是我非常謝謝法務部剛剛提到刑法的部分，我覺得這是很重要對於國人的提醒，對於相關言論自由定義的提醒，這個釐清我認為非常重要，謝謝您的回答。","我們來看另外一個我們辦公室所長期關心的議題，就是關於民法第一千零八十五條這件事情，我知道我們在前年應該有公告要修正，對嗎？但是後來沒有相關的進度，我們可不可以問一下目前的進度跟可能遇到的困境？第一千零八十五條就是家長對於兒少的管教權這件事情，我們現在要確定一下進度，主席，時間可以幫我暫停一下嗎？"],["主席：時間先暫停、時間先暫停。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，讓他們找一下對的幕僚來回答，謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：沒問題，你們討論一下，待會趕快回答，可以回答的時候，時間再起算。"],["陳委員培瑜：可以回答我們再繼續好嗎？"],["主席：沒問題。"],["徐次長錫祥：要確定一下是不是送到大院來了。"],["主席：沒關係，我們等你，就麻煩次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：已經送到大院來了。"],["陳委員培瑜：已經送到本院來了？"],["主席：OK，時間繼續計算。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主席。"],["主席：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以現在的態度是傾向修法嗎？就是這個修法的方向，可不可以確切念出來你們修法條文的內容？"],["徐次長錫祥：好，第一千零八十五條：父母保護及教養未成年子女，應考量子女之年齡及發展程度，尊重子女之人格，不得對子女為身心暴力行為。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，就是最後這一句「不得對子女為身心暴力行為」，所以之前就有非常多的家長聯盟、一些公民團體出來開記者會說，他們如果沒有打小孩的權利，他們就不知道怎麼教小孩了，當時我在教育及文化委員會，我們就告訴教育部說，長期以來教育部必須協助家長進行家庭教育這一塊，如果你們已經送進立法院了，是不是後續法務部這邊怎麼協同教育部做一個跨部會的討論，協助家長、協助社區、協助學校，讓大人們學會好好對待小孩的方法，而不是因為修了那一句話叫做不得對兒童有身心相關暴力的行為，導致家長可能之後會不會上街抗議，會不會繼續開記者會？然後導致你們這個修法的態度就退縮回去了，這樣反而我們整個兒童人權的狀況是後退的，可不可以請法務部這邊表達一下你們的意見，以及後續可能與教育部討論、規劃的方向？謝謝。"],["徐次長錫祥：宣導方面，教育部、衛福部如果有需要我們法務部到場或者協助，我們一定會樂意配合。"],["陳委員培瑜：他們一定需要啦！"],["徐次長錫祥：那我們一定會到場配合。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，因為你們修這個法，其實最頭痛的應該是教育部。"],["徐次長錫祥：沒錯。"],["陳委員培瑜：因為教育部有終身教育司，他們長期必須做家庭教育，甚至在學校裡面，那我想問一下，在學校裡面也適用這一條嗎？在學校裡面，因為我們這個是談家長的部分對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：老師沒有這個權利。"],["陳委員培瑜：為什麼我要談這件事情？因為家長可能就會做出一件我們可能覺得有一點不能理解的事，但對家長來說，他可能要找一個出口，他可能就會去告訴學校老師說，現在法律說我不能打小孩，不然小孩如果在學校有很多不好管教的，就交給老師打這樣子。"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員……"],["陳委員培瑜：大家都笑了嘛，所以大家都認同這是很有可能發生的社會現象喔！"],["徐次長錫祥：民法第一千零八十五條這個懲戒權只有父母有。"],["陳委員培瑜：我知道、我知道、我知道。"],["徐次長錫祥：老師沒有，老師絕對沒有懲戒權。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯、沒錯，所以我要拜託法務部，之後教育部一定會遇到這個問題，因為我在家庭教育做了十幾年，我知道一定會有這個困境，所以我在這邊正式提出就是要拜託法務部跟教育部，你們兩個部會一定要坐下來好好討論，開跨部會協調會議，在你們相關修法的配套後，有沒有相關的資源、相關的可能性去跟教育部討論，開啟、啟動更多家庭教育方案來協助社區的家長。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：如果你們開跨部會會議有困難，是不是我們辦公室也可以主動來找你們一起召開？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：最後，我的主張很清楚，就是第一千零八十五條的修正絕對是好事，希望你們不要退縮，但是如何協助教育部、協助更多的家長，透過教育部的系統去協助社區更多家長，我認為是我們未來一起努力的目標，立法委員不能只是要了這個法、修了這個法，但是相關的配套我們一起來努力好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝法務部、謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。","今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時，要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。委員王鴻薇所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":246,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-4","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","黃國昌","王義川","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","王鴻薇"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅智強等\n17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「刑事\n訴訟法第二百零五條之二、第二百零五條之三及第二百零五條之四條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n林楚茵等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143101_00004"}}}