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\"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 752.981, \"end\": 753.001, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,109 --> 00:00:06,645\n科茲恩委員質詢好謝謝周阿偉我們現在請黎遠部長請黎遠部長\n\n2\n00:00:15,489 --> 00:00:28,120\n各位你好部長好我想你現在也是聊下去了站台助講而且還自備道具你那個挖工是從哪裡來的我那個挖工是我非常有歷史價值是我結婚成家立業的起家族的起家王\n\n3\n00:00:31,282 --> 00:00:48,761\n就从你们家自己带过来的对不对不过真的还是一个知名的作家讲的是要把讨饭的挖工变成文化的聚宝盆那我想这个向来我们对于这个文化工作者的生计大家都非常的重视嘛对不对特别是对基层的人工但是呢我还是要请问部长\n\n4\n00:00:49,502 --> 00:01:09,404\n大部分的文化工作者是很难真的是连聚宝盆的边都摸不到的要拿到补助的机会都没有的你在站台时候讲的一些话我某种程度我还是蛮赞同的你说呢这个创作之余还要监送这个外送当家教然后呢各种贴补的工作来维持生计没错吧\n\n5\n00:01:10,245 --> 00:01:27,538\n就表示说这个大家过得非常的辛苦嘛对不对那这应该是文化部的一个工作跟角色啦那我想请问部长你知道这个从民进党执政大概2016到现在大概9年的时间我们这10年来台湾艺文工作者的年薪大概是多少你有概念吗\n\n6\n00:01:28,518 --> 00:01:38,542\n我沒有概念因為它不同的產業當然不同的收入但是把它列名為藝文工作者我跟部長講一下大概維持在45萬到53萬之間大概比服務業這十年服務業增長的幅度其實你看服務業增長的幅度大概是24%但是我們創作者表演藝術者才增加4%這是讓部長先了解一些基本的概念而且你會知道2013年兩者才差9%\n\n7\n00:01:57,028 --> 00:02:26,971\n但到2019年的时候呢其实已经扩大到18%而且这个疫情扩大之后呢更已经达到26%这就是基层文化者我们要讨论要真正让他们能够摸到聚宝盆我们要从这个角度来先来看起而且很多事实证明包括文化部你自己也做过很多的资料啊你每一年花的2696万来做这个所谓的统计来做分析你也很多数字告诉我们低薪风险高压力大这都完全是\n\n8\n00:02:27,411 --> 00:02:43,038\n所以我们就一一来解释一下到底是如何来我们再看下面一个资料你看根据劳动部的调查我们大概有21万这个文化工作者但是呢受雇的员工就是有公司来受雇大概是13万大概是占的比例是63.76那没有一定雇主的大概就是3.84\n\n9\n00:02:47,660 --> 00:02:52,564\n但是就像freelancer就是自營工作者是32.41部長你看這個比例圖跟一般我們勞動的分配是有點不太一樣一般勞動分配的話自營者跟這個所謂的有雇主的大概是2比8但是我們文化工作者你看得出來\n\n10\n00:03:05,273 --> 00:03:27,764\n私营工作者跟还有包括没有一定的工作者他的比例是高于一般台湾的整个劳工的结构这就可以反映出文化工作者的一个辛苦但是呢我今天就要特别提到没有雇主没有劳保没有劳退这个东西是我们想面对你们也做出了非常多的研究我们来看看怎么样来做一个解方先告诉你还有出版业这是部长非常在乎的\n\n11\n00:03:28,564 --> 00:03:55,564\n出版业也来反映呢还有一堆的一批的外包的这个大军团包括企划文案等等之类的你知道吗他们跟本席反映光是单笔收入超过两万块的拨款的时候就必须依法先预扣10%的所得税还有一笔二代健保没有加入工会的外包人员要扣这一笔所以说呢预扣所得税是政府的规定你把一天到晚没有超过两万人他的这个预扣所得跟蔡依林周杰伦\n\n12\n00:03:56,184 --> 00:04:19,832\n一模一樣你覺得這公平嗎身為文化部長你對這些基層人員公平嗎他們都沒有跟你反應過嗎你是不是可以去以部長之姿為了這些文化的基層工作者然後跟財政部來了解一下是否對於這些文化的工作者怎麼樣鼓勵文化工作者當他們在這個第二代的健保的這個部分可不可以不要預扣這是部長你可以做到的嘛對不對對\n\n13\n00:04:22,728 --> 00:04:40,284\n好那就請部長務必未來可以為這些工作者來因為兩萬多塊錢是不應該跟周杰倫等量奇觀來做同樣的事情這是不公平的這才是為文化工作基層來去做我們再來看一下還有沒有當然還有啊像是呢文化部做這麼多統計但是我們要問嘛我剛說了2690\n\n14\n00:04:44,308 --> 00:05:06,540\n2696万来做这个分析但是你们到底拿出了什么样的解方到底做了哪一些的事情所以说这些你们拿出来的对策到底在哪里我们就来看啊还有呢去年有一位成为钢琴大奖的这个阳性钢琴家他对罗当然他的原因有非常多不同的因素我现在只看到他所说的揭露艺术工作者的困境我看到这一个部分\n\n15\n00:05:06,980 --> 00:05:28,463\n你知道很多的艺术家他们往往一些契约被取消他们完全没有任何的一个概念他们也完全不晓得民法也不熟悉深文化部长你可不在你的官网因为不懂法律可不可以提供契约范本就像过去我们的观光产业我们的消费者本身也不知道这个出国旅游会有这么多我们马上有消费者的契约\n\n16\n00:05:28,903 --> 00:05:40,512\n如果對這基層員工來說的話是否可以提供一個辦法提供一個法律參考這才是文化部部長該做的事情這才是你告訴我們這些文化基層工作者應該有的一些部分部長你同意嗎\n\n17\n00:05:41,998 --> 00:05:51,786\n非常同意而且我們就朝這個發現已經公佈在我們的官方網站上面您剛才講的我非常非常同意當然因為你自己也是來自基層你知道他們之間的一個辛苦好不好這麼多的人那接下來我們就來看一下公視最近舉辦的事實查核的藝術跟實踐國際研討會很好\n\n18\n00:06:00,993 --> 00:06:21,511\n来告诉我们怎么样来对于这个假讯息严重散布该如何做一些防堵可是我们来看看公事的就是公广机场的华视的新闻的专业到底有没有它的公信力存在不要说这个跑马灯当这已经是过去式的跑马灯过去的共军投档习台大同火山爆发这些都是跑马灯所发生的一些的状况\n\n19\n00:06:22,031 --> 00:06:29,294\n然後現在呢好最近就發生了這個狀況陳潔篇的發言被民眾抗議還明明講的是中華隊你們硬要是要把他改成台灣隊然後呢昨天又發生一些我們75個中研院的這個學者專家明明跟你講的就是在戒嚴時代思想已經審查已經降臨台灣這個呢我們你們中央社就一定要把這個戒嚴兩個字給拿掉戒嚴這麼刺耳嗎部長\n\n20\n00:06:51,826 --> 00:07:08,576\n戒嚴是一個在台灣曾經有過的一個人家講人家學者專家講的就是他的如實你如實把它披露出來硬是要把戒嚴兩個字拿掉人家的中華隊你要把它框上是台灣隊你覺得新聞的公信你覺得新聞的專業是需要做這樣的事情嗎就是這樣子啊\n\n21\n00:07:12,918 --> 00:07:24,811\n人家聯合其他報紙就是有如實的報導我們這位陳培哲教授裡面所提到的你硬是要把這兩個字弄掉你覺得你身為一個專業新聞工作者有需要做這件事嗎我想這非常不應該可能是一個疏忽啦疏忽啊不是故意的\n\n22\n00:07:28,194 --> 00:07:52,634\n那我们就希望以后的公广集团旗下的任何的部分可以更不要再疏忽好不好我们就已经提点出来还有台湾plus对不起啊部长我还是要说在我们院会的时候呢我们所有的委员只是只是做了一些小更动院会这个部分里面当然会有但是呢我们看看台湾plus台湾plus的一些的员工其实就会到我这个地方来他认为呢发生什么样的状况\n\n23\n00:07:53,154 --> 00:08:11,632\n他说他通常很多时候是高于市价的外包的方法然后呢对于一些纳税人的钱其实没有好好的制作成本非常的惊人OK还有呢到底跟Discovery的合作的专案两年间耗费六千万有没有它的合理性这都可以受到讨论但是呢\n\n24\n00:08:12,273 --> 00:08:35,533\n就是一个你113年你明明还有一亿花不完而且呢我们调了一个资料你还要跟文化部做一个预算展言你的钱都还没有花完你却还要用更多的预算你不觉得这个预算的管控上面部长你应该稍微也来了解一下吗要展言这个一亿表示钱没有花完没有在这个规定时间做啊\n\n25\n00:08:35,973 --> 00:08:45,948\n是不是所以這是內部員工覺得在這整個過程當中高層的確是有必要要再做一些檢討部長你同意嗎我非常同意應該檢討但有一些\n\n26\n00:08:46,963 --> 00:09:07,449\n那个节目制作是跟国际合作他必须展我同意啊所以我才说你同意合作但是你的时间也没有办法做到这个就在预算的管控上面就会出了问题还有包括你们台湾plus的基层员工所提到的外包然后是不是你的这个所谓外包的成本比本来制作还要更高这个也请部长好好来\n\n27\n00:09:08,109 --> 00:09:28,787\n咨询一下好谢谢还有包括我还知道央广这当然是已经过去是的这个目前来说非常多已经不是现在我们央广的董事长的部分这是前台的馆长的这个部分好我们这体验我们就来看一下这个虽然是四年前发生的事情但是它也条列的你有看过他们所拿出来的报告吗\n\n28\n00:09:30,768 --> 00:09:46,069\n你没看过报告那个廉政署都已经开始查了你没看过调查报告里面有提出五项严重的缺失我想这五项严重的缺失目前为止有没有做任何的做任何的一个追究而且你们还说要上到司法单位来做调查到底后续有没有调查\n\n29\n00:09:46,770 --> 00:10:08,526\n有关于央广这长期以来的历史工业这是你们前台长所说的什么叫历史工业然后历史工业完就完全不追究然后这台长就可以到别的地方更高深有这种事啊而且最重要的是你为什么把它放为机密文件最后不能不能见人吗为什么放机密文件这东西不能公开透明吗告诉我央广过去的历史工业到底是哪些的工业哪一些的工业为什么要放成机密文件\n\n30\n00:10:09,346 --> 00:10:26,841\n部长这不需要吧而且呢这个崔少哲本身认为他是长期受到一个霸凌虽然你们已经成立委员会然后认为不成立但是他也是一个事实所以我还是真的是希望部长这些都是员工的心声我今天所提到都是文化者基本的一个心声可不可以请你\n\n31\n00:10:27,301 --> 00:10:37,907\n真的是好好去徹查一下以前是叫做國防部我不相信要變成文化部遮羞部的部這不應該在你任內所發生的事情這個不應該變成一個機密最後我還是要說華視的部分裡面這個總台長目前為止到華視去了然後呢華視被認為是國家關鍵的基礎設施這是NCC講的因為是我們國家的是我們的部分裡面\n\n32\n00:10:48,192 --> 00:10:53,920\n現在呢你們把六樓把一些兩層樓的節目部全部趕到六樓的一個角落一個節目部節目部的基層員工也覺得很吧一個這麼大的一個節目部為什麼會被趕到六樓過去然後把這些全部出租當然我可以了解華視這個的這個辛苦所以希望能夠\n\n33\n00:11:06,135 --> 00:11:24,706\n能出空间来然后能够外租给不同的单位所以你看啊这我还是要忍不住这又是一个历史的工业我相信你们会这样讲今年的台市跟民市都赚钱中市小亏的三千万华市还是亏钱这当然是历史工业我知道我们的董事长也非常的努力的但是呢我说实在的你们把\n\n34\n00:11:25,146 --> 00:11:32,529\n这个楼层把一个这么重要的节目部放在一个员工不舒服而且比较狭窄的空间全部是外包全部都是拿去租赁然后你收入3.5亿但是我说实在的如果不是放上这3.5亿华氏不是要亏6亿吗\n\n35\n00:11:41,273 --> 00:12:08,319\n這些都是在財務成本的管控上面部長都是你自己曾經經歷過的你今天具有這樣的一個位置我真的很希望部長真的為基層的文化工作者我剛剛所提到的部長也認為是有道理的那就請部長採取行動這才是一個文化部不是跟我講那麼多文化部身為一個基層文化工作者我們給他一個更好的文化環境這才是我們應該是最基礎而且應該最需要做到的部長同意嗎\n\n36\n00:12:09,287 --> 00:12:33,001\n剛才柯委員講的每一件事情我都身歷其境謝謝你的指教我想我會努力希望我們在下一次的質詢當中可以看到一些結果特別是我剛剛所提到的二代健保部分兩萬五千塊你卻要跟他跟那個兩億五千塊的周杰倫放在一個同一個瓶頸這怎麼說都說不過去了對不對是好我有提到周杰倫但是你不想聽到名字因為上次黃劉佩好選你也被周杰倫搞得非常的困難好吧謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n109\t6645\t科茲恩委員質詢好 謝謝周阿偉 我們現在請黎遠部長請黎遠部長\n15489\t28120\t各位你好部長好我想你現在也是聊下去了站台助講而且還自備道具你那個挖工是從哪裡來的我那個挖工是我非常有歷史價值是我結婚成家立業的起家族的起家王\n31282\t48761\t就从你们家自己带过来的对不对不过真的还是一个知名的作家讲的是要把讨饭的挖工变成文化的聚宝盆那我想这个向来我们对于这个文化工作者的生计大家都非常的重视嘛对不对特别是对基层的人工但是呢我还是要请问部长\n49502\t69404\t大部分的文化工作者是很难真的是连聚宝盆的边都摸不到的要拿到补助的机会都没有的你在站台时候讲的一些话我某种程度我还是蛮赞同的你说呢这个创作之余还要监送这个外送当家教然后呢各种贴补的工作来维持生计没错吧\n70245\t87538\t就表示说这个大家过得非常的辛苦嘛对不对那这应该是文化部的一个工作跟角色啦那我想请问部长你知道这个从民进党执政大概2016到现在大概9年的时间我们这10年来台湾艺文工作者的年薪大概是多少你有概念吗\n88518\t98542\t我沒有概念因為它不同的產業當然 不同的收入但是把它列名為藝文工作者我跟部長講一下大概維持在45萬到53萬之間大概比服務業這十年服務業增長的幅度其實你看服務業增長的幅度大概是24%但是我們創作者表演藝術者才增加4%這是讓部長先了解一些基本的概念而且你會知道2013年兩者才差9%\n117028\t146971\t但到2019年的时候呢其实已经扩大到18%而且这个疫情扩大之后呢更已经达到26%这就是基层文化者我们要讨论要真正让他们能够摸到聚宝盆我们要从这个角度来先来看起而且很多事实证明包括文化部你自己也做过很多的资料啊你每一年花的2696万来做这个所谓的统计来做分析你也很多数字告诉我们低薪风险高压力大这都完全是\n147411\t163038\t所以我们就一一来解释一下到底是如何来我们再看下面一个资料你看根据劳动部的调查我们大概有21万这个文化工作者但是呢受雇的员工就是有公司来受雇大概是13万大概是占的比例是63.76那没有一定雇主的大概就是3.84\n167660\t172564\t但是就像freelancer就是自營工作者是32.41部長你看這個比例圖跟一般我們勞動的分配是有點不太一樣一般勞動分配的話自營者跟這個所謂的有雇主的大概是2比8但是我們文化工作者你看得出來\n185273\t207764\t私营工作者跟还有包括没有一定的工作者他的比例是高于一般台湾的整个劳工的结构这就可以反映出文化工作者的一个辛苦但是呢我今天就要特别提到没有雇主没有劳保没有劳退这个东西是我们想面对你们也做出了非常多的研究我们来看看怎么样来做一个解方先告诉你还有出版业这是部长非常在乎的\n208564\t235564\t出版业也来反映呢还有一堆的一批的外包的这个大军团包括企划文案等等之类的你知道吗他们跟本席反映光是单笔收入超过两万块的拨款的时候就必须依法先预扣10%的所得税还有一笔二代健保没有加入工会的外包人员要扣这一笔所以说呢预扣所得税是政府的规定你把一天到晚没有超过两万人他的这个预扣所得跟蔡依林周杰伦\n236184\t259832\t一模一樣你覺得這公平嗎身為文化部長你對這些基層人員公平嗎他們都沒有跟你反應過嗎你是不是可以去以部長之姿為了這些文化的基層工作者然後跟財政部來了解一下是否對於這些文化的工作者怎麼樣鼓勵文化工作者當他們在這個第二代的健保的這個部分可不可以不要預扣這是部長你可以做到的嘛對不對對\n262728\t280284\t好那就請部長務必未來可以為這些工作者來因為兩萬多塊錢是不應該跟周杰倫等量奇觀來做同樣的事情這是不公平的這才是為文化工作基層來去做我們再來看一下還有沒有當然還有啊像是呢文化部做這麼多統計但是我們要問嘛我剛說了2690\n284308\t306540\t2696万来做这个分析但是你们到底拿出了什么样的解方到底做了哪一些的事情所以说这些你们拿出来的对策到底在哪里我们就来看啊还有呢去年有一位成为钢琴大奖的这个阳性钢琴家他对罗当然他的原因有非常多不同的因素我现在只看到他所说的揭露艺术工作者的困境我看到这一个部分\n306980\t328463\t你知道很多的艺术家他们往往一些契约被取消他们完全没有任何的一个概念他们也完全不晓得民法也不熟悉深文化部长你可不在你的官网因为不懂法律可不可以提供契约范本就像过去我们的观光产业我们的消费者本身也不知道这个出国旅游会有这么多我们马上有消费者的契约\n328903\t340512\t如果對這基層員工來說的話是否可以提供一個辦法提供一個法律參考這才是文化部部長該做的事情這才是你告訴我們這些文化基層工作者應該有的一些部分部長你同意嗎\n341998\t351786\t非常同意而且我們就朝這個發現已經公佈在我們的官方網站上面您剛才講的我非常非常同意當然因為你自己也是來自基層你知道他們之間的一個辛苦好不好這麼多的人那接下來我們就來看一下公視最近舉辦的事實查核的藝術跟實踐國際研討會很好\n360993\t381511\t来告诉我们怎么样来对于这个假讯息严重散布该如何做一些防堵可是我们来看看公事的就是公广机场的华视的新闻的专业到底有没有它的公信力存在不要说这个跑马灯当这已经是过去式的跑马灯过去的共军投档习台大同火山爆发这些都是跑马灯所发生的一些的状况\n382031\t389294\t然後現在呢好最近就發生了這個狀況陳潔篇的發言被民眾抗議還明明講的是中華隊你們硬要是要把他改成台灣隊然後呢昨天又發生一些我們75個中研院的這個學者專家明明跟你講的就是在戒嚴時代思想已經審查已經降臨台灣這個呢我們你們中央社就一定要把這個戒嚴兩個字給拿掉戒嚴這麼刺耳嗎部長\n411826\t428576\t戒嚴是一個在台灣曾經有過的一個人家講人家學者專家講的就是他的如實你如實把它披露出來硬是要把戒嚴兩個字拿掉人家的中華隊你要把它框上是台灣隊你覺得新聞的公信你覺得新聞的專業是需要做這樣的事情嗎就是這樣子啊\n432918\t444811\t人家聯合其他報紙就是有如實的報導我們這位陳培哲教授裡面所提到的你硬是要把這兩個字弄掉你覺得你身為一個專業新聞工作者有需要做這件事嗎我想這非常不應該可能是一個疏忽啦疏忽啊不是故意的\n448194\t472634\t那我们就希望以后的公广集团旗下的任何的部分可以更不要再疏忽好不好我们就已经提点出来还有台湾plus对不起啊部长我还是要说在我们院会的时候呢我们所有的委员只是只是做了一些小更动院会这个部分里面当然会有但是呢我们看看台湾plus台湾plus的一些的员工其实就会到我这个地方来他认为呢发生什么样的状况\n473154\t491632\t他说他通常很多时候是高于市价的外包的方法然后呢对于一些纳税人的钱其实没有好好的制作成本非常的惊人OK还有呢到底跟Discovery的合作的专案两年间耗费六千万有没有它的合理性这都可以受到讨论但是呢\n492273\t515533\t就是一个你113年你明明还有一亿花不完而且呢我们调了一个资料你还要跟文化部做一个预算展言你的钱都还没有花完你却还要用更多的预算你不觉得这个预算的管控上面部长你应该稍微也来了解一下吗要展言这个一亿表示钱没有花完没有在这个规定时间做啊\n515973\t525948\t是不是所以這是內部員工覺得在這整個過程當中高層的確是有必要要再做一些檢討部長你同意嗎我非常同意應該檢討但有一些\n526963\t547449\t那个节目制作是跟国际合作他必须展我同意啊所以我才说你同意合作但是你的时间也没有办法做到这个就在预算的管控上面就会出了问题还有包括你们台湾plus的基层员工所提到的外包然后是不是你的这个所谓外包的成本比本来制作还要更高这个也请部长好好来\n548109\t568787\t咨询一下好谢谢还有包括我还知道央广这当然是已经过去是的这个目前来说非常多已经不是现在我们央广的董事长的部分这是前台的馆长的这个部分好我们这体验我们就来看一下这个虽然是四年前发生的事情但是它也条列的你有看过他们所拿出来的报告吗\n570768\t586069\t你没看过报告那个廉政署都已经开始查了你没看过调查报告里面有提出五项严重的缺失我想这五项严重的缺失目前为止有没有做任何的做任何的一个追究而且你们还说要上到司法单位来做调查到底后续有没有调查\n586770\t608526\t有关于央广这长期以来的历史工业这是你们前台长所说的什么叫历史工业然后历史工业完就完全不追究然后这台长就可以到别的地方更高深有这种事啊而且最重要的是你为什么把它放为机密文件最后不能不能见人吗为什么放机密文件这东西不能公开透明吗告诉我央广过去的历史工业到底是哪些的工业哪一些的工业为什么要放成机密文件\n609346\t626841\t部长这不需要吧而且呢这个崔少哲本身认为他是长期受到一个霸凌虽然你们已经成立委员会然后认为不成立但是他也是一个事实所以我还是真的是希望部长这些都是员工的心声我今天所提到都是文化者基本的一个心声可不可以请你\n627301\t637907\t真的是好好去徹查一下以前是叫做國防部我不相信要變成文化部遮羞部的部這不應該在你任內所發生的事情這個不應該變成一個機密最後我還是要說華視的部分裡面這個總台長目前為止到華視去了然後呢華視被認為是國家關鍵的基礎設施這是NCC講的因為是我們國家的是我們的部分裡面\n648192\t653920\t現在呢你們把六樓把一些兩層樓的節目部全部趕到六樓的一個角落一個節目部節目部的基層員工也覺得很吧一個這麼大的一個節目部為什麼會被趕到六樓過去然後把這些全部出租當然我可以了解華視這個的這個辛苦所以希望能夠\n666135\t684706\t能出空间来然后能够外租给不同的单位所以你看啊这我还是要忍不住这又是一个历史的工业我相信你们会这样讲今年的台市跟民市都赚钱中市小亏的三千万华市还是亏钱这当然是历史工业我知道我们的董事长也非常的努力的但是呢我说实在的你们把\n685146\t692529\t这个楼层把一个这么重要的节目部放在一个员工不舒服而且比较狭窄的空间全部是外包全部都是拿去租赁然后你收入3.5亿但是我说实在的如果不是放上这3.5亿华氏不是要亏6亿吗\n701273\t728319\t這些都是在財務成本的管控上面部長都是你自己曾經經歷過的你今天具有這樣的一個位置我真的很希望部長真的為基層的文化工作者我剛剛所提到的部長也認為是有道理的那就請部長採取行動這才是一個文化部不是跟我講那麼多文化部身為一個基層文化工作者我們給他一個更好的文化環境這才是我們應該是最基礎而且應該最需要做到的部長同意嗎\n729287\t753001\t剛才柯委員講的每一件事情我都身歷其境謝謝你的指教我想我會努力希望我們在下一次的質詢當中可以看到一些結果特別是我剛剛所提到的二代健保部分兩萬五千塊你卻要跟他跟那個兩億五千塊的周杰倫放在一個同一個瓶頸這怎麼說都說不過去了對不對是好我有提到周杰倫但是你不想聽到名字因為上次黃劉佩好選你也被周杰倫搞得非常的困難好吧謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員謝謝\n","txt":"科茲恩委員質詢好 謝謝周阿偉 我們現在請黎遠部長請黎遠部長\n各位你好部長好我想你現在也是聊下去了站台助講而且還自備道具你那個挖工是從哪裡來的我那個挖工是我非常有歷史價值是我結婚成家立業的起家族的起家王\n就从你们家自己带过来的对不对不过真的还是一个知名的作家讲的是要把讨饭的挖工变成文化的聚宝盆那我想这个向来我们对于这个文化工作者的生计大家都非常的重视嘛对不对特别是对基层的人工但是呢我还是要请问部长\n大部分的文化工作者是很难真的是连聚宝盆的边都摸不到的要拿到补助的机会都没有的你在站台时候讲的一些话我某种程度我还是蛮赞同的你说呢这个创作之余还要监送这个外送当家教然后呢各种贴补的工作来维持生计没错吧\n就表示说这个大家过得非常的辛苦嘛对不对那这应该是文化部的一个工作跟角色啦那我想请问部长你知道这个从民进党执政大概2016到现在大概9年的时间我们这10年来台湾艺文工作者的年薪大概是多少你有概念吗\n我沒有概念因為它不同的產業當然 不同的收入但是把它列名為藝文工作者我跟部長講一下大概維持在45萬到53萬之間大概比服務業這十年服務業增長的幅度其實你看服務業增長的幅度大概是24%但是我們創作者表演藝術者才增加4%這是讓部長先了解一些基本的概念而且你會知道2013年兩者才差9%\n但到2019年的时候呢其实已经扩大到18%而且这个疫情扩大之后呢更已经达到26%这就是基层文化者我们要讨论要真正让他们能够摸到聚宝盆我们要从这个角度来先来看起而且很多事实证明包括文化部你自己也做过很多的资料啊你每一年花的2696万来做这个所谓的统计来做分析你也很多数字告诉我们低薪风险高压力大这都完全是\n所以我们就一一来解释一下到底是如何来我们再看下面一个资料你看根据劳动部的调查我们大概有21万这个文化工作者但是呢受雇的员工就是有公司来受雇大概是13万大概是占的比例是63.76那没有一定雇主的大概就是3.84\n但是就像freelancer就是自營工作者是32.41部長你看這個比例圖跟一般我們勞動的分配是有點不太一樣一般勞動分配的話自營者跟這個所謂的有雇主的大概是2比8但是我們文化工作者你看得出來\n私营工作者跟还有包括没有一定的工作者他的比例是高于一般台湾的整个劳工的结构这就可以反映出文化工作者的一个辛苦但是呢我今天就要特别提到没有雇主没有劳保没有劳退这个东西是我们想面对你们也做出了非常多的研究我们来看看怎么样来做一个解方先告诉你还有出版业这是部长非常在乎的\n出版业也来反映呢还有一堆的一批的外包的这个大军团包括企划文案等等之类的你知道吗他们跟本席反映光是单笔收入超过两万块的拨款的时候就必须依法先预扣10%的所得税还有一笔二代健保没有加入工会的外包人员要扣这一笔所以说呢预扣所得税是政府的规定你把一天到晚没有超过两万人他的这个预扣所得跟蔡依林周杰伦\n一模一樣你覺得這公平嗎身為文化部長你對這些基層人員公平嗎他們都沒有跟你反應過嗎你是不是可以去以部長之姿為了這些文化的基層工作者然後跟財政部來了解一下是否對於這些文化的工作者怎麼樣鼓勵文化工作者當他們在這個第二代的健保的這個部分可不可以不要預扣這是部長你可以做到的嘛對不對對\n好那就請部長務必未來可以為這些工作者來因為兩萬多塊錢是不應該跟周杰倫等量奇觀來做同樣的事情這是不公平的這才是為文化工作基層來去做我們再來看一下還有沒有當然還有啊像是呢文化部做這麼多統計但是我們要問嘛我剛說了2690\n2696万来做这个分析但是你们到底拿出了什么样的解方到底做了哪一些的事情所以说这些你们拿出来的对策到底在哪里我们就来看啊还有呢去年有一位成为钢琴大奖的这个阳性钢琴家他对罗当然他的原因有非常多不同的因素我现在只看到他所说的揭露艺术工作者的困境我看到这一个部分\n你知道很多的艺术家他们往往一些契约被取消他们完全没有任何的一个概念他们也完全不晓得民法也不熟悉深文化部长你可不在你的官网因为不懂法律可不可以提供契约范本就像过去我们的观光产业我们的消费者本身也不知道这个出国旅游会有这么多我们马上有消费者的契约\n如果對這基層員工來說的話是否可以提供一個辦法提供一個法律參考這才是文化部部長該做的事情這才是你告訴我們這些文化基層工作者應該有的一些部分部長你同意嗎\n非常同意而且我們就朝這個發現已經公佈在我們的官方網站上面您剛才講的我非常非常同意當然因為你自己也是來自基層你知道他們之間的一個辛苦好不好這麼多的人那接下來我們就來看一下公視最近舉辦的事實查核的藝術跟實踐國際研討會很好\n来告诉我们怎么样来对于这个假讯息严重散布该如何做一些防堵可是我们来看看公事的就是公广机场的华视的新闻的专业到底有没有它的公信力存在不要说这个跑马灯当这已经是过去式的跑马灯过去的共军投档习台大同火山爆发这些都是跑马灯所发生的一些的状况\n然後現在呢好最近就發生了這個狀況陳潔篇的發言被民眾抗議還明明講的是中華隊你們硬要是要把他改成台灣隊然後呢昨天又發生一些我們75個中研院的這個學者專家明明跟你講的就是在戒嚴時代思想已經審查已經降臨台灣這個呢我們你們中央社就一定要把這個戒嚴兩個字給拿掉戒嚴這麼刺耳嗎部長\n戒嚴是一個在台灣曾經有過的一個人家講人家學者專家講的就是他的如實你如實把它披露出來硬是要把戒嚴兩個字拿掉人家的中華隊你要把它框上是台灣隊你覺得新聞的公信你覺得新聞的專業是需要做這樣的事情嗎就是這樣子啊\n人家聯合其他報紙就是有如實的報導我們這位陳培哲教授裡面所提到的你硬是要把這兩個字弄掉你覺得你身為一個專業新聞工作者有需要做這件事嗎我想這非常不應該可能是一個疏忽啦疏忽啊不是故意的\n那我们就希望以后的公广集团旗下的任何的部分可以更不要再疏忽好不好我们就已经提点出来还有台湾plus对不起啊部长我还是要说在我们院会的时候呢我们所有的委员只是只是做了一些小更动院会这个部分里面当然会有但是呢我们看看台湾plus台湾plus的一些的员工其实就会到我这个地方来他认为呢发生什么样的状况\n他说他通常很多时候是高于市价的外包的方法然后呢对于一些纳税人的钱其实没有好好的制作成本非常的惊人OK还有呢到底跟Discovery的合作的专案两年间耗费六千万有没有它的合理性这都可以受到讨论但是呢\n就是一个你113年你明明还有一亿花不完而且呢我们调了一个资料你还要跟文化部做一个预算展言你的钱都还没有花完你却还要用更多的预算你不觉得这个预算的管控上面部长你应该稍微也来了解一下吗要展言这个一亿表示钱没有花完没有在这个规定时间做啊\n是不是所以這是內部員工覺得在這整個過程當中高層的確是有必要要再做一些檢討部長你同意嗎我非常同意應該檢討但有一些\n那个节目制作是跟国际合作他必须展我同意啊所以我才说你同意合作但是你的时间也没有办法做到这个就在预算的管控上面就会出了问题还有包括你们台湾plus的基层员工所提到的外包然后是不是你的这个所谓外包的成本比本来制作还要更高这个也请部长好好来\n咨询一下好谢谢还有包括我还知道央广这当然是已经过去是的这个目前来说非常多已经不是现在我们央广的董事长的部分这是前台的馆长的这个部分好我们这体验我们就来看一下这个虽然是四年前发生的事情但是它也条列的你有看过他们所拿出来的报告吗\n你没看过报告那个廉政署都已经开始查了你没看过调查报告里面有提出五项严重的缺失我想这五项严重的缺失目前为止有没有做任何的做任何的一个追究而且你们还说要上到司法单位来做调查到底后续有没有调查\n有关于央广这长期以来的历史工业这是你们前台长所说的什么叫历史工业然后历史工业完就完全不追究然后这台长就可以到别的地方更高深有这种事啊而且最重要的是你为什么把它放为机密文件最后不能不能见人吗为什么放机密文件这东西不能公开透明吗告诉我央广过去的历史工业到底是哪些的工业哪一些的工业为什么要放成机密文件\n部长这不需要吧而且呢这个崔少哲本身认为他是长期受到一个霸凌虽然你们已经成立委员会然后认为不成立但是他也是一个事实所以我还是真的是希望部长这些都是员工的心声我今天所提到都是文化者基本的一个心声可不可以请你\n真的是好好去徹查一下以前是叫做國防部我不相信要變成文化部遮羞部的部這不應該在你任內所發生的事情這個不應該變成一個機密最後我還是要說華視的部分裡面這個總台長目前為止到華視去了然後呢華視被認為是國家關鍵的基礎設施這是NCC講的因為是我們國家的是我們的部分裡面\n現在呢你們把六樓把一些兩層樓的節目部全部趕到六樓的一個角落一個節目部節目部的基層員工也覺得很吧一個這麼大的一個節目部為什麼會被趕到六樓過去然後把這些全部出租當然我可以了解華視這個的這個辛苦所以希望能夠\n能出空间来然后能够外租给不同的单位所以你看啊这我还是要忍不住这又是一个历史的工业我相信你们会这样讲今年的台市跟民市都赚钱中市小亏的三千万华市还是亏钱这当然是历史工业我知道我们的董事长也非常的努力的但是呢我说实在的你们把\n这个楼层把一个这么重要的节目部放在一个员工不舒服而且比较狭窄的空间全部是外包全部都是拿去租赁然后你收入3.5亿但是我说实在的如果不是放上这3.5亿华氏不是要亏6亿吗\n這些都是在財務成本的管控上面部長都是你自己曾經經歷過的你今天具有這樣的一個位置我真的很希望部長真的為基層的文化工作者我剛剛所提到的部長也認為是有道理的那就請部長採取行動這才是一個文化部不是跟我講那麼多文化部身為一個基層文化工作者我們給他一個更好的文化環境這才是我們應該是最基礎而且應該最需要做到的部長同意嗎\n剛才柯委員講的每一件事情我都身歷其境謝謝你的指教我想我會努力希望我們在下一次的質詢當中可以看到一些結果特別是我剛剛所提到的二代健保部分兩萬五千塊你卻要跟他跟那個兩億五千塊的周杰倫放在一個同一個瓶頸這怎麼說都說不過去了對不對是好我有提到周杰倫但是你不想聽到名字因為上次黃劉佩好選你也被周杰倫搞得非常的困難好吧謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.109 --> 00:06.645\n科茲恩委員質詢好謝謝周阿偉我們現在請黎遠部長請黎遠部長\n\n00:15.489 --> 00:28.120\n各位你好部長好我想你現在也是聊下去了站台助講而且還自備道具你那個挖工是從哪裡來的我那個挖工是我非常有歷史價值是我結婚成家立業的起家族的起家王\n\n00:31.282 --> 00:48.761\n就从你们家自己带过来的对不对不过真的还是一个知名的作家讲的是要把讨饭的挖工变成文化的聚宝盆那我想这个向来我们对于这个文化工作者的生计大家都非常的重视嘛对不对特别是对基层的人工但是呢我还是要请问部长\n\n00:49.502 --> 01:09.404\n大部分的文化工作者是很难真的是连聚宝盆的边都摸不到的要拿到补助的机会都没有的你在站台时候讲的一些话我某种程度我还是蛮赞同的你说呢这个创作之余还要监送这个外送当家教然后呢各种贴补的工作来维持生计没错吧\n\n01:10.245 --> 01:27.538\n就表示说这个大家过得非常的辛苦嘛对不对那这应该是文化部的一个工作跟角色啦那我想请问部长你知道这个从民进党执政大概2016到现在大概9年的时间我们这10年来台湾艺文工作者的年薪大概是多少你有概念吗\n\n01:28.518 --> 01:38.542\n我沒有概念因為它不同的產業當然不同的收入但是把它列名為藝文工作者我跟部長講一下大概維持在45萬到53萬之間大概比服務業這十年服務業增長的幅度其實你看服務業增長的幅度大概是24%但是我們創作者表演藝術者才增加4%這是讓部長先了解一些基本的概念而且你會知道2013年兩者才差9%\n\n01:57.028 --> 02:26.971\n但到2019年的时候呢其实已经扩大到18%而且这个疫情扩大之后呢更已经达到26%这就是基层文化者我们要讨论要真正让他们能够摸到聚宝盆我们要从这个角度来先来看起而且很多事实证明包括文化部你自己也做过很多的资料啊你每一年花的2696万来做这个所谓的统计来做分析你也很多数字告诉我们低薪风险高压力大这都完全是\n\n02:27.411 --> 02:43.038\n所以我们就一一来解释一下到底是如何来我们再看下面一个资料你看根据劳动部的调查我们大概有21万这个文化工作者但是呢受雇的员工就是有公司来受雇大概是13万大概是占的比例是63.76那没有一定雇主的大概就是3.84\n\n02:47.660 --> 02:52.564\n但是就像freelancer就是自營工作者是32.41部長你看這個比例圖跟一般我們勞動的分配是有點不太一樣一般勞動分配的話自營者跟這個所謂的有雇主的大概是2比8但是我們文化工作者你看得出來\n\n03:05.273 --> 03:27.764\n私营工作者跟还有包括没有一定的工作者他的比例是高于一般台湾的整个劳工的结构这就可以反映出文化工作者的一个辛苦但是呢我今天就要特别提到没有雇主没有劳保没有劳退这个东西是我们想面对你们也做出了非常多的研究我们来看看怎么样来做一个解方先告诉你还有出版业这是部长非常在乎的\n\n03:28.564 --> 03:55.564\n出版业也来反映呢还有一堆的一批的外包的这个大军团包括企划文案等等之类的你知道吗他们跟本席反映光是单笔收入超过两万块的拨款的时候就必须依法先预扣10%的所得税还有一笔二代健保没有加入工会的外包人员要扣这一笔所以说呢预扣所得税是政府的规定你把一天到晚没有超过两万人他的这个预扣所得跟蔡依林周杰伦\n\n03:56.184 --> 04:19.832\n一模一樣你覺得這公平嗎身為文化部長你對這些基層人員公平嗎他們都沒有跟你反應過嗎你是不是可以去以部長之姿為了這些文化的基層工作者然後跟財政部來了解一下是否對於這些文化的工作者怎麼樣鼓勵文化工作者當他們在這個第二代的健保的這個部分可不可以不要預扣這是部長你可以做到的嘛對不對對\n\n04:22.728 --> 04:40.284\n好那就請部長務必未來可以為這些工作者來因為兩萬多塊錢是不應該跟周杰倫等量奇觀來做同樣的事情這是不公平的這才是為文化工作基層來去做我們再來看一下還有沒有當然還有啊像是呢文化部做這麼多統計但是我們要問嘛我剛說了2690\n\n04:44.308 --> 05:06.540\n2696万来做这个分析但是你们到底拿出了什么样的解方到底做了哪一些的事情所以说这些你们拿出来的对策到底在哪里我们就来看啊还有呢去年有一位成为钢琴大奖的这个阳性钢琴家他对罗当然他的原因有非常多不同的因素我现在只看到他所说的揭露艺术工作者的困境我看到这一个部分\n\n05:06.980 --> 05:28.463\n你知道很多的艺术家他们往往一些契约被取消他们完全没有任何的一个概念他们也完全不晓得民法也不熟悉深文化部长你可不在你的官网因为不懂法律可不可以提供契约范本就像过去我们的观光产业我们的消费者本身也不知道这个出国旅游会有这么多我们马上有消费者的契约\n\n05:28.903 --> 05:40.512\n如果對這基層員工來說的話是否可以提供一個辦法提供一個法律參考這才是文化部部長該做的事情這才是你告訴我們這些文化基層工作者應該有的一些部分部長你同意嗎\n\n05:41.998 --> 05:51.786\n非常同意而且我們就朝這個發現已經公佈在我們的官方網站上面您剛才講的我非常非常同意當然因為你自己也是來自基層你知道他們之間的一個辛苦好不好這麼多的人那接下來我們就來看一下公視最近舉辦的事實查核的藝術跟實踐國際研討會很好\n\n06:00.993 --> 06:21.511\n来告诉我们怎么样来对于这个假讯息严重散布该如何做一些防堵可是我们来看看公事的就是公广机场的华视的新闻的专业到底有没有它的公信力存在不要说这个跑马灯当这已经是过去式的跑马灯过去的共军投档习台大同火山爆发这些都是跑马灯所发生的一些的状况\n\n06:22.031 --> 06:29.294\n然後現在呢好最近就發生了這個狀況陳潔篇的發言被民眾抗議還明明講的是中華隊你們硬要是要把他改成台灣隊然後呢昨天又發生一些我們75個中研院的這個學者專家明明跟你講的就是在戒嚴時代思想已經審查已經降臨台灣這個呢我們你們中央社就一定要把這個戒嚴兩個字給拿掉戒嚴這麼刺耳嗎部長\n\n06:51.826 --> 07:08.576\n戒嚴是一個在台灣曾經有過的一個人家講人家學者專家講的就是他的如實你如實把它披露出來硬是要把戒嚴兩個字拿掉人家的中華隊你要把它框上是台灣隊你覺得新聞的公信你覺得新聞的專業是需要做這樣的事情嗎就是這樣子啊\n\n07:12.918 --> 07:24.811\n人家聯合其他報紙就是有如實的報導我們這位陳培哲教授裡面所提到的你硬是要把這兩個字弄掉你覺得你身為一個專業新聞工作者有需要做這件事嗎我想這非常不應該可能是一個疏忽啦疏忽啊不是故意的\n\n07:28.194 --> 07:52.634\n那我们就希望以后的公广集团旗下的任何的部分可以更不要再疏忽好不好我们就已经提点出来还有台湾plus对不起啊部长我还是要说在我们院会的时候呢我们所有的委员只是只是做了一些小更动院会这个部分里面当然会有但是呢我们看看台湾plus台湾plus的一些的员工其实就会到我这个地方来他认为呢发生什么样的状况\n\n07:53.154 --> 08:11.632\n他说他通常很多时候是高于市价的外包的方法然后呢对于一些纳税人的钱其实没有好好的制作成本非常的惊人OK还有呢到底跟Discovery的合作的专案两年间耗费六千万有没有它的合理性这都可以受到讨论但是呢\n\n08:12.273 --> 08:35.533\n就是一个你113年你明明还有一亿花不完而且呢我们调了一个资料你还要跟文化部做一个预算展言你的钱都还没有花完你却还要用更多的预算你不觉得这个预算的管控上面部长你应该稍微也来了解一下吗要展言这个一亿表示钱没有花完没有在这个规定时间做啊\n\n08:35.973 --> 08:45.948\n是不是所以這是內部員工覺得在這整個過程當中高層的確是有必要要再做一些檢討部長你同意嗎我非常同意應該檢討但有一些\n\n08:46.963 --> 09:07.449\n那个节目制作是跟国际合作他必须展我同意啊所以我才说你同意合作但是你的时间也没有办法做到这个就在预算的管控上面就会出了问题还有包括你们台湾plus的基层员工所提到的外包然后是不是你的这个所谓外包的成本比本来制作还要更高这个也请部长好好来\n\n09:08.109 --> 09:28.787\n咨询一下好谢谢还有包括我还知道央广这当然是已经过去是的这个目前来说非常多已经不是现在我们央广的董事长的部分这是前台的馆长的这个部分好我们这体验我们就来看一下这个虽然是四年前发生的事情但是它也条列的你有看过他们所拿出来的报告吗\n\n09:30.768 --> 09:46.069\n你没看过报告那个廉政署都已经开始查了你没看过调查报告里面有提出五项严重的缺失我想这五项严重的缺失目前为止有没有做任何的做任何的一个追究而且你们还说要上到司法单位来做调查到底后续有没有调查\n\n09:46.770 --> 10:08.526\n有关于央广这长期以来的历史工业这是你们前台长所说的什么叫历史工业然后历史工业完就完全不追究然后这台长就可以到别的地方更高深有这种事啊而且最重要的是你为什么把它放为机密文件最后不能不能见人吗为什么放机密文件这东西不能公开透明吗告诉我央广过去的历史工业到底是哪些的工业哪一些的工业为什么要放成机密文件\n\n10:09.346 --> 10:26.841\n部长这不需要吧而且呢这个崔少哲本身认为他是长期受到一个霸凌虽然你们已经成立委员会然后认为不成立但是他也是一个事实所以我还是真的是希望部长这些都是员工的心声我今天所提到都是文化者基本的一个心声可不可以请你\n\n10:27.301 --> 10:37.907\n真的是好好去徹查一下以前是叫做國防部我不相信要變成文化部遮羞部的部這不應該在你任內所發生的事情這個不應該變成一個機密最後我還是要說華視的部分裡面這個總台長目前為止到華視去了然後呢華視被認為是國家關鍵的基礎設施這是NCC講的因為是我們國家的是我們的部分裡面\n\n10:48.192 --> 10:53.920\n現在呢你們把六樓把一些兩層樓的節目部全部趕到六樓的一個角落一個節目部節目部的基層員工也覺得很吧一個這麼大的一個節目部為什麼會被趕到六樓過去然後把這些全部出租當然我可以了解華視這個的這個辛苦所以希望能夠\n\n11:06.135 --> 11:24.706\n能出空间来然后能够外租给不同的单位所以你看啊这我还是要忍不住这又是一个历史的工业我相信你们会这样讲今年的台市跟民市都赚钱中市小亏的三千万华市还是亏钱这当然是历史工业我知道我们的董事长也非常的努力的但是呢我说实在的你们把\n\n11:25.146 --> 11:32.529\n这个楼层把一个这么重要的节目部放在一个员工不舒服而且比较狭窄的空间全部是外包全部都是拿去租赁然后你收入3.5亿但是我说实在的如果不是放上这3.5亿华氏不是要亏6亿吗\n\n11:41.273 --> 12:08.319\n這些都是在財務成本的管控上面部長都是你自己曾經經歷過的你今天具有這樣的一個位置我真的很希望部長真的為基層的文化工作者我剛剛所提到的部長也認為是有道理的那就請部長採取行動這才是一個文化部不是跟我講那麼多文化部身為一個基層文化工作者我們給他一個更好的文化環境這才是我們應該是最基礎而且應該最需要做到的部長同意嗎\n\n12:09.287 --> 12:33.001\n剛才柯委員講的每一件事情我都身歷其境謝謝你的指教我想我會努力希望我們在下一次的質詢當中可以看到一些結果特別是我剛剛所提到的二代健保部分兩萬五千塊你卻要跟他跟那個兩億五千塊的周杰倫放在一個同一個瓶頸這怎麼說都說不過去了對不對是好我有提到周杰倫但是你不想聽到名字因為上次黃劉佩好選你也被周杰倫搞得非常的困難好吧謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.109,"end":6.645,"text":"科茲恩委員質詢好 謝謝周阿偉 我們現在請黎遠部長請黎遠部長"},{"start":15.489,"end":28.12,"text":"各位你好部長好我想你現在也是聊下去了站台助講而且還自備道具你那個挖工是從哪裡來的我那個挖工是我非常有歷史價值是我結婚成家立業的起家族的起家王"},{"start":31.282,"end":48.761,"text":"就从你们家自己带过来的对不对不过真的还是一个知名的作家讲的是要把讨饭的挖工变成文化的聚宝盆那我想这个向来我们对于这个文化工作者的生计大家都非常的重视嘛对不对特别是对基层的人工但是呢我还是要请问部长"},{"start":49.502,"end":69.404,"text":"大部分的文化工作者是很难真的是连聚宝盆的边都摸不到的要拿到补助的机会都没有的你在站台时候讲的一些话我某种程度我还是蛮赞同的你说呢这个创作之余还要监送这个外送当家教然后呢各种贴补的工作来维持生计没错吧"},{"start":70.245,"end":87.538,"text":"就表示说这个大家过得非常的辛苦嘛对不对那这应该是文化部的一个工作跟角色啦那我想请问部长你知道这个从民进党执政大概2016到现在大概9年的时间我们这10年来台湾艺文工作者的年薪大概是多少你有概念吗"},{"start":88.518,"end":98.542,"text":"我沒有概念因為它不同的產業當然 不同的收入但是把它列名為藝文工作者我跟部長講一下大概維持在45萬到53萬之間大概比服務業這十年服務業增長的幅度其實你看服務業增長的幅度大概是24%但是我們創作者表演藝術者才增加4%這是讓部長先了解一些基本的概念而且你會知道2013年兩者才差9%"},{"start":117.028,"end":146.971,"text":"但到2019年的时候呢其实已经扩大到18%而且这个疫情扩大之后呢更已经达到26%这就是基层文化者我们要讨论要真正让他们能够摸到聚宝盆我们要从这个角度来先来看起而且很多事实证明包括文化部你自己也做过很多的资料啊你每一年花的2696万来做这个所谓的统计来做分析你也很多数字告诉我们低薪风险高压力大这都完全是"},{"start":147.411,"end":163.038,"text":"所以我们就一一来解释一下到底是如何来我们再看下面一个资料你看根据劳动部的调查我们大概有21万这个文化工作者但是呢受雇的员工就是有公司来受雇大概是13万大概是占的比例是63.76那没有一定雇主的大概就是3.84"},{"start":167.66,"end":172.564,"text":"但是就像freelancer就是自營工作者是32.41部長你看這個比例圖跟一般我們勞動的分配是有點不太一樣一般勞動分配的話自營者跟這個所謂的有雇主的大概是2比8但是我們文化工作者你看得出來"},{"start":185.273,"end":207.764,"text":"私营工作者跟还有包括没有一定的工作者他的比例是高于一般台湾的整个劳工的结构这就可以反映出文化工作者的一个辛苦但是呢我今天就要特别提到没有雇主没有劳保没有劳退这个东西是我们想面对你们也做出了非常多的研究我们来看看怎么样来做一个解方先告诉你还有出版业这是部长非常在乎的"},{"start":208.564,"end":235.564,"text":"出版业也来反映呢还有一堆的一批的外包的这个大军团包括企划文案等等之类的你知道吗他们跟本席反映光是单笔收入超过两万块的拨款的时候就必须依法先预扣10%的所得税还有一笔二代健保没有加入工会的外包人员要扣这一笔所以说呢预扣所得税是政府的规定你把一天到晚没有超过两万人他的这个预扣所得跟蔡依林周杰伦"},{"start":236.184,"end":259.832,"text":"一模一樣你覺得這公平嗎身為文化部長你對這些基層人員公平嗎他們都沒有跟你反應過嗎你是不是可以去以部長之姿為了這些文化的基層工作者然後跟財政部來了解一下是否對於這些文化的工作者怎麼樣鼓勵文化工作者當他們在這個第二代的健保的這個部分可不可以不要預扣這是部長你可以做到的嘛對不對對"},{"start":262.728,"end":280.284,"text":"好那就請部長務必未來可以為這些工作者來因為兩萬多塊錢是不應該跟周杰倫等量奇觀來做同樣的事情這是不公平的這才是為文化工作基層來去做我們再來看一下還有沒有當然還有啊像是呢文化部做這麼多統計但是我們要問嘛我剛說了2690"},{"start":284.308,"end":306.54,"text":"2696万来做这个分析但是你们到底拿出了什么样的解方到底做了哪一些的事情所以说这些你们拿出来的对策到底在哪里我们就来看啊还有呢去年有一位成为钢琴大奖的这个阳性钢琴家他对罗当然他的原因有非常多不同的因素我现在只看到他所说的揭露艺术工作者的困境我看到这一个部分"},{"start":306.98,"end":328.463,"text":"你知道很多的艺术家他们往往一些契约被取消他们完全没有任何的一个概念他们也完全不晓得民法也不熟悉深文化部长你可不在你的官网因为不懂法律可不可以提供契约范本就像过去我们的观光产业我们的消费者本身也不知道这个出国旅游会有这么多我们马上有消费者的契约"},{"start":328.903,"end":340.512,"text":"如果對這基層員工來說的話是否可以提供一個辦法提供一個法律參考這才是文化部部長該做的事情這才是你告訴我們這些文化基層工作者應該有的一些部分部長你同意嗎"},{"start":341.998,"end":351.786,"text":"非常同意而且我們就朝這個發現已經公佈在我們的官方網站上面您剛才講的我非常非常同意當然因為你自己也是來自基層你知道他們之間的一個辛苦好不好這麼多的人那接下來我們就來看一下公視最近舉辦的事實查核的藝術跟實踐國際研討會很好"},{"start":360.993,"end":381.511,"text":"来告诉我们怎么样来对于这个假讯息严重散布该如何做一些防堵可是我们来看看公事的就是公广机场的华视的新闻的专业到底有没有它的公信力存在不要说这个跑马灯当这已经是过去式的跑马灯过去的共军投档习台大同火山爆发这些都是跑马灯所发生的一些的状况"},{"start":382.031,"end":389.294,"text":"然後現在呢好最近就發生了這個狀況陳潔篇的發言被民眾抗議還明明講的是中華隊你們硬要是要把他改成台灣隊然後呢昨天又發生一些我們75個中研院的這個學者專家明明跟你講的就是在戒嚴時代思想已經審查已經降臨台灣這個呢我們你們中央社就一定要把這個戒嚴兩個字給拿掉戒嚴這麼刺耳嗎部長"},{"start":411.826,"end":428.576,"text":"戒嚴是一個在台灣曾經有過的一個人家講人家學者專家講的就是他的如實你如實把它披露出來硬是要把戒嚴兩個字拿掉人家的中華隊你要把它框上是台灣隊你覺得新聞的公信你覺得新聞的專業是需要做這樣的事情嗎就是這樣子啊"},{"start":432.918,"end":444.811,"text":"人家聯合其他報紙就是有如實的報導我們這位陳培哲教授裡面所提到的你硬是要把這兩個字弄掉你覺得你身為一個專業新聞工作者有需要做這件事嗎我想這非常不應該可能是一個疏忽啦疏忽啊不是故意的"},{"start":448.194,"end":472.634,"text":"那我们就希望以后的公广集团旗下的任何的部分可以更不要再疏忽好不好我们就已经提点出来还有台湾plus对不起啊部长我还是要说在我们院会的时候呢我们所有的委员只是只是做了一些小更动院会这个部分里面当然会有但是呢我们看看台湾plus台湾plus的一些的员工其实就会到我这个地方来他认为呢发生什么样的状况"},{"start":473.154,"end":491.632,"text":"他说他通常很多时候是高于市价的外包的方法然后呢对于一些纳税人的钱其实没有好好的制作成本非常的惊人OK还有呢到底跟Discovery的合作的专案两年间耗费六千万有没有它的合理性这都可以受到讨论但是呢"},{"start":492.273,"end":515.533,"text":"就是一个你113年你明明还有一亿花不完而且呢我们调了一个资料你还要跟文化部做一个预算展言你的钱都还没有花完你却还要用更多的预算你不觉得这个预算的管控上面部长你应该稍微也来了解一下吗要展言这个一亿表示钱没有花完没有在这个规定时间做啊"},{"start":515.973,"end":525.948,"text":"是不是所以這是內部員工覺得在這整個過程當中高層的確是有必要要再做一些檢討部長你同意嗎我非常同意應該檢討但有一些"},{"start":526.963,"end":547.449,"text":"那个节目制作是跟国际合作他必须展我同意啊所以我才说你同意合作但是你的时间也没有办法做到这个就在预算的管控上面就会出了问题还有包括你们台湾plus的基层员工所提到的外包然后是不是你的这个所谓外包的成本比本来制作还要更高这个也请部长好好来"},{"start":548.109,"end":568.787,"text":"咨询一下好谢谢还有包括我还知道央广这当然是已经过去是的这个目前来说非常多已经不是现在我们央广的董事长的部分这是前台的馆长的这个部分好我们这体验我们就来看一下这个虽然是四年前发生的事情但是它也条列的你有看过他们所拿出来的报告吗"},{"start":570.768,"end":586.069,"text":"你没看过报告那个廉政署都已经开始查了你没看过调查报告里面有提出五项严重的缺失我想这五项严重的缺失目前为止有没有做任何的做任何的一个追究而且你们还说要上到司法单位来做调查到底后续有没有调查"},{"start":586.77,"end":608.526,"text":"有关于央广这长期以来的历史工业这是你们前台长所说的什么叫历史工业然后历史工业完就完全不追究然后这台长就可以到别的地方更高深有这种事啊而且最重要的是你为什么把它放为机密文件最后不能不能见人吗为什么放机密文件这东西不能公开透明吗告诉我央广过去的历史工业到底是哪些的工业哪一些的工业为什么要放成机密文件"},{"start":609.346,"end":626.841,"text":"部长这不需要吧而且呢这个崔少哲本身认为他是长期受到一个霸凌虽然你们已经成立委员会然后认为不成立但是他也是一个事实所以我还是真的是希望部长这些都是员工的心声我今天所提到都是文化者基本的一个心声可不可以请你"},{"start":627.301,"end":637.907,"text":"真的是好好去徹查一下以前是叫做國防部我不相信要變成文化部遮羞部的部這不應該在你任內所發生的事情這個不應該變成一個機密最後我還是要說華視的部分裡面這個總台長目前為止到華視去了然後呢華視被認為是國家關鍵的基礎設施這是NCC講的因為是我們國家的是我們的部分裡面"},{"start":648.192,"end":653.92,"text":"現在呢你們把六樓把一些兩層樓的節目部全部趕到六樓的一個角落一個節目部節目部的基層員工也覺得很吧一個這麼大的一個節目部為什麼會被趕到六樓過去然後把這些全部出租當然我可以了解華視這個的這個辛苦所以希望能夠"},{"start":666.135,"end":684.706,"text":"能出空间来然后能够外租给不同的单位所以你看啊这我还是要忍不住这又是一个历史的工业我相信你们会这样讲今年的台市跟民市都赚钱中市小亏的三千万华市还是亏钱这当然是历史工业我知道我们的董事长也非常的努力的但是呢我说实在的你们把"},{"start":685.146,"end":692.529,"text":"这个楼层把一个这么重要的节目部放在一个员工不舒服而且比较狭窄的空间全部是外包全部都是拿去租赁然后你收入3.5亿但是我说实在的如果不是放上这3.5亿华氏不是要亏6亿吗"},{"start":701.273,"end":728.319,"text":"這些都是在財務成本的管控上面部長都是你自己曾經經歷過的你今天具有這樣的一個位置我真的很希望部長真的為基層的文化工作者我剛剛所提到的部長也認為是有道理的那就請部長採取行動這才是一個文化部不是跟我講那麼多文化部身為一個基層文化工作者我們給他一個更好的文化環境這才是我們應該是最基礎而且應該最需要做到的部長同意嗎"},{"start":729.287,"end":753.001,"text":"剛才柯委員講的每一件事情我都身歷其境謝謝你的指教我想我會努力希望我們在下一次的質詢當中可以看到一些結果特別是我剛剛所提到的二代健保部分兩萬五千塊你卻要跟他跟那個兩億五千塊的周杰倫放在一個同一個瓶頸這怎麼說都說不過去了對不對是好我有提到周杰倫但是你不想聽到名字因為上次黃劉佩好選你也被周杰倫搞得非常的困難好吧謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":107,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時15分）謝謝召委，請李遠部長。"],["主席：請李遠部長。"],["李部長遠：柯委員，你好。"],["柯委員志恩：部長好。我想你現在也是「蹽落去」，站臺助講而且還自備道具，你那個碗公是從哪裡來的？"],["李部長遠：那個碗公非常有歷史價值，是我結婚成家立業的「起家厝」的「起家碗」。"],["柯委員志恩：很好，就是從你們家自己帶過來的，對不對？"],["李部長遠：從角落裡拿出來的。"],["柯委員志恩：不過你真的還是一個知名的作家，講的是要把討飯的碗公變成文化的聚寶盆！向來對於文化工作者的生計，大家都非常重視，對不對？特別是對基層的員工。但是我還是要請問部長，大部分的文化工作者是很難，真的是連聚寶盆的邊都摸不到的，要拿到補助的機會都沒有的。你在站臺時候講的一些話，某種程度我還是蠻贊同的，你說創作之餘，還要兼外送、當家教，然後做各種貼補的工作來維持生計，沒錯吧？就表示大家過得非常辛苦，對不對？"],["李部長遠：是，沒錯。"],["柯委員志恩：這應該是文化部的工作跟角色，我想請問部長，你知道從民進黨執政從2016到現在大概9年的時間，這10年來臺灣藝文工作者的年薪大概是多少，你有概念嗎？"],["李部長遠：我沒有概念，因為不同的產業，不同的收入。"],["柯委員志恩：當然啦！但是把他列名為藝文工作者，我跟部長講，大概維持在45萬到53萬之間，跟這10年服務業增長的幅度比，其實服務業增長的幅度大概是24%，但是創作者、表演藝術者才增加4%，讓部長先了解一些基本的概念。2013年兩者才差9%，但到2019年的時候，其實已經擴大到18%，而且疫情擴大之後更已達到26%，這就是基層文化工作者。我們要討論，要真正讓他們能夠摸到聚寶盆，要從這個角度先來看起，有很多事實證明，包括文化部自己也做過很多的資料，每一年花2,696萬做所謂的統計分析，你也很多數字告訴我們，低薪、風險高、壓力大，這些都是，所以我們就一一來檢視一下到底是如何。","我們再看下面一個資料，根據勞動部的調查，大概有21萬文化工作者，但是受僱於公司的員工大概是13萬，占的比例是63.76%；無一定雇主的是3.84%，但是像freelancer自營作業者，是32.41%。部長，你看這個比例圖，跟一般勞動分配有點不太一樣，一般勞動分配，自營者跟所謂有雇主的，大概是2比8，但是文化工作者，你看得出來，自營作業者包括無一定雇主的工作者，它的比例是高於一般臺灣自營勞工的結構，這就可以反映出文化工作者的辛苦。但是我今天要特別提到，沒有雇主、沒有勞保、沒有勞退，這個東西是我們所要面對的，你們也做出了非常多的研究，我們來看看怎麼樣來做一個解方。我先告訴你，出版業是部長非常在乎的，出版業也來反映了，還有一批外包的大軍團，包括企劃、文案之類的，你知道嗎？他們跟本席反映，光是單筆收入超過兩萬塊的，撥款的時候就必須依法先預扣10%的所得稅，還有一筆二代健保，沒有加入工會的外包人員也要扣這一筆，雖然預扣所得是政府的規定，但你一天到晚把收入超過兩萬的人預扣所得，跟蔡依林、周杰倫一模一樣，你覺得這公平嗎？身為文化部長，你對這些基層人員公平嗎？他們都沒有跟你反映過嗎？你是不是可以以部長之姿，為了這些文化的基層工作者，跟財政部來了解一下？真的要鼓勵文化工作者，關於二代健保的部分，可不可以不要預扣？這是部長可以做到的，對不對？"],["李部長遠：對。"],["柯委員志恩：好，那就請部長，務必未來可以為這些工作者來發聲，因為兩萬多塊錢，是不該跟周杰倫等量齊觀做同樣的事情，這是不公平的，這才是為文化工作基層去做。我們再來看一下還有沒有？當然還有啊！文化部做這麼多統計，但是我們要問，我剛剛說了用2,696萬來做這個分析，但是你們到底拿出了什麼樣的解方？到底做了哪一些事情？這是你們拿出來的，對策到底在哪裡？我們就來看啊！","去年有一位曾獲鋼琴大獎的楊姓鋼琴家墜樓，當然有非常多不同的因素，我現在只看到他所說的，揭露藝術工作者的困境。你知道很多的藝術家，他們往往在一些契約被取消時，完全沒有任何的概念，也完全不曉得、不熟悉民法。因為他們不懂法律，你身為文化部長可不可以在你的官網提供契約範本？就像過去觀光產業，消費者本身也不知道出國旅遊會有這麼多問題，我們馬上有消費者的契約，對這些基層員工來說，是否可以提供範本，提供法律參考？這才是文化部部長該做的事情，這才是你應該告訴這些文化基層工作者的，部長同意嗎？"],["李部長遠：非常同意，而且我們就朝這個方向，已經公布在我們的官方網站上面。您剛才講的，我非常、非常同意。"],["柯委員志恩：當然，因為你自己也是來自基層，你知道他們這些人的辛苦，有這麼多的人，好不好？","接下來我們看一下，公視最近舉辦「事實查核的藝術與實踐」國際研討會，很好，告訴我們怎麼樣面對假訊息的嚴重散布及該如何做一些防堵，可是公廣集團、華視的新聞專業到底有沒有公信力存在？這個已經是過去式了，跑馬燈上曾有「共軍投彈襲台」、「大屯火山爆發」，這些都是跑馬燈所發生的一些狀況。最近發生了一個狀況，就是陳傑憲的發言被民眾抗議，他明明講的是「中華隊」，你們硬是要把它改成「台灣隊」。昨天又發生一件，75個中研院的學者專家明明講，戒嚴時代的思想審查已經降臨臺灣，而你們中央社就一定要把「戒嚴」兩個字給拿掉，戒嚴這麼刺耳嗎？部長。"],["李部長遠：戒嚴是一個在臺灣曾經有過的……"],["柯委員志恩：人家學者專家講的就是如實，你應該如實把它披露出來，卻硬是要把「戒嚴」兩個字拿掉；人家的「中華隊」，你要把它匡上是「台灣隊」，你覺得新聞的公信、專業是需要做這樣的事情嗎？就是這樣子啊！聯合及其他報紙就如實報導這位陳培哲教授所提到的，你硬是要把「戒嚴」兩個字弄掉。你覺得身為一個專業的新聞工作者，有需要做這件事嗎？"],["李部長遠：我想這非常不應該，可能是疏忽啦！"],["柯委員志恩：疏忽啊！"],["李部長遠：不會是故意的。"],["柯委員志恩：好，我們希望以後公廣集團旗下的任何部門可以不要再疏忽，好不好？我已經提點出來。","還有TaiwanPlus，對不起！部長，我還是要說，在院會的時候，委員只是做了一些小更動，這個部分當然會有，但是TaiwanPlus一些員工的投訴就會到我這邊，他們認為發生什麼樣的狀況呢？他們說通常很多時候是用高於市價的外包方法，對於納稅人的錢沒有好好把關，製作成本非常驚人，還有跟「Discovery」頻道的合作專案2年間耗費6,000萬，到底有沒有合理性？這都可以受到討論，但是113年明明還有1億花不完，而且我們調了資料發現，還要跟文化部做預算展延，錢都還沒有花完，卻還要更多的預算，部長不覺得這個預算的管控，你應該也要稍微了解一下嗎？要展延1億，表示錢沒有花完，沒有在規定時間做，是不是？內部員工覺得在這整個過程當中，高層的確有必要再檢討，部長同意嗎？"],["李部長遠：我非常同意應該檢討，但有一些節目製作是跟國際合作，必須展延……"],["柯委員志恩：我同意啊！所以我才說你同意合作，但是沒有辦法在時間內做到，在預算的管控上就會出問題，還有包括TaiwanPlus基層員工所提到的外包，所謂外包的成本比本來製作費還要更高，這個也請部長好好諮詢一下。好，謝謝。","我還知道央廣，當然是以前過去的事了，目前來說，非常多已經不是現在央廣董事長的問題，而是前臺長。雖然是4年前發生的事情，但你有看過他們所拿出來的報告嗎？"],["李部長遠：目前還沒有。"],["柯委員志恩：你沒看過報告？廉政署都已經開始查了，你沒有看過調查報告裡有提出5項嚴重的缺失，目前為止有沒有做任何的追究？你們還說要送到司法單位調查，到底後續有沒有調查？有關央廣前臺長所說的，這是長期以來的歷史共業，什麼叫歷史共業？歷史共業就完全不追究，然後臺長可以高升到別的地方，有這種事啊？而且最重要是為什麼把它列為機密文件，不能見人嗎？為什麼列機密文件？這個東西不能公開透明嗎？告訴我，央廣過去的歷史共業到底是哪些共業？為什麼要列成機密文件？部長，這不需要吧！","這個吹哨者本身認為長期受到霸凌，雖然你們已經有成立委員會認為不成立，但它是事實。這些都是員工的心聲，今天我所提到都是文化者基本的心聲，可不可以請你真的好好去徹查一下？以前是叫做國防「布」，我不希望變成了文化「布」，遮羞布的「布」，這不應該是在你任內所發生的事情，不應該變成機密。","最後，有關華視，目前這個總臺長到華視去了，華視被認為是國家關鍵基礎設施，這是NCC講的，因為是我們國家的。現在你們把以前2層樓的節目部全部趕到6樓的一個角落，節目部的基層員工也覺得很不舒服，這麼大的節目部為什麼會被趕到6樓，然後把這些空間全部出租？當然，我可以了解華視的辛苦，希望能夠騰出空間外租給不同的單位，但我還是要忍不住提出。這又是一個歷史共業，我相信你們會這樣講。今年台視跟民視都賺錢，中視小虧了3,000萬，華視還是虧錢，這當然是歷史共業，我知道董事長也非常努力，說實在的，你們把這麼重要的節目部放在一個讓員工不舒服、比較狹窄的空間，全部都拿去租賃，然後收入3.5億。說實在的，如果不是這3.5億，華視不就要虧6億嗎？這些都是財務成本的管控，也都是部長自己曾經經歷過的。你今天具有這樣的位置，真的很希望部長為基層的文化工作者發聲。我剛剛所提到的，如果部長也認為是有道理的，那就請部長採取行動，而不是跟我講那麼多。文化部給基層文化工作者一個更好的文化環境，應該才是最基礎、最需要做到的，部長同意嗎？"],["李部長遠：剛才柯委員講的每一件事情，我都身歷其境，謝謝你的指教，我會努力。"],["柯委員志恩：希望我們在下一次的質詢當中，可以看到一些結果，特別是我剛剛所提到的二代健保，收入2萬5,000元卻要跟2億5,000萬的周杰倫放在同一個平頂，這怎麼說都說不過去，對不對？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["柯委員志恩：好，我又提到周杰倫，你不想聽到這個名字，因為上次黃牛票，你也被周杰倫搞得非常的困難。"],["李部長遠：對。"],["柯委員志恩：好！謝謝部長。"],["李部長遠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩委員，部長請回。","接下來請萬美玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-4","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","劉書彬","葛如鈞","林月琴","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳思瑤","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","葉元之","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00002"}}}