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{\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 473.446, \"end\": 473.466, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"侵\", \"start\": 473.466, \"end\": 474.087, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 474.087, \"end\": 474.107, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 474.107, \"end\": 474.187, \"score\": 0.702}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 474.187, \"end\": 474.207, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"剽\"}, {\"word\": \"竊\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 474.207, \"end\": 474.267, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 474.267, \"end\": 474.287, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 474.287, \"end\": 474.307, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 474.307, \"end\": 474.327, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"響\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 474.327, \"end\": 474.347, \"score\": 0.051}, {\"word\": \"疑\", \"start\": 474.347, \"end\": 474.387, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"慮\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 474.387, \"end\": 474.407, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"爭\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 474.407, \"end\": 474.427, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 474.427, \"end\": 474.467, \"score\": 0.488}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 474.467, \"end\": 474.487, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 474.487, \"end\": 474.567, \"score\": 0.516}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 474.567, \"end\": 474.587, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}]}, {\"start\": 486.115, \"end\": 497.457, \"text\": \"所以你怎麼看這個AI對於藝術家來說它到底是一個創作者角色會變成一種威脅還是創作力催生的一種協同所以您也是一個作家您怎麼看這個部分\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 486.115, \"end\": 486.255, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 486.255, \"end\": 486.476, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 486.476, \"end\": 486.616, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 486.616, \"end\": 486.897, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 486.897, \"end\": 487.558, 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727.427, \"end\": 727.587, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 727.587, \"end\": 727.707, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"玲\", \"start\": 727.707, \"end\": 727.807, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 727.807, \"end\": 727.827, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,063 --> 00:00:10,567\n好謝謝召委一樣有請我們李遠部長還有我們賴董事長好新理部長跟楊廣賴董事長\n\n2\n00:00:20,062 --> 00:00:37,100\n我想央广最近这件事情闹得沸沸扬扬但是刚才我听到您说这个查核报告您没有看我们来回顾一下这个央广在110年4月的时候当时被媒体爆出制作不实的单据那像这个陆委会等等的公部门榨领了相关的公费\n\n3\n00:00:37,740 --> 00:00:55,081\n那那個時候其實文化部到了這個隔兩個月才去函要求這個公正查核那央廣也花了大概半年多的時間到111年的1月把查核報告送到文化部那不曉得為什麼要列為這個機密當然現在把它解密之後我們才發現說\n\n4\n00:00:56,943 --> 00:01:17,872\n其中6697筆領據竟然有高達2885筆的領據是異常的這個比例已經高達了43%而且這是目前可以查到的部分那如果還有一些我們不知道沒有公布的我們還不知道有多少但是本席比較驚訝的是部長您竟然說你沒有看過這個查核報告為什麼\n\n5\n00:01:20,779 --> 00:01:44,799\n我想我最近還沒有機會看到因為他最近這個事情我其實一開始根本搞不清楚因為四年前後來經過我了解以後我想這個當然不是在您的任內但是我們要大刀闊斧的去改變過去的一些陋習或者是有一些其實不合理不合法的地方我覺得您身為現任的部長是應該要去了解的\n\n6\n00:01:45,379 --> 00:01:59,749\n你看喔既然您說你沒有看過我想整理一下其實沒有看過連最近媒體在報也沒有去注意嘛你看它不管是這個節目沒有辦法核對好像每一集的這個集數是不相符的那甚至於來賓是不對的還有這個偽造簽名的那麼日期跟播出時間不一的等等這些其實都非常的誇張啦我相信您身為這個從這個電視人來從媒體來喔您一定會發現這樣的狀況其實是匪夷所思的喔好我們再來看一個喔\n\n7\n00:02:14,099 --> 00:02:41,381\n根據這個查核報告我們看到我們看一下那個到查核報告這邊這個查核報告我們看到第一階段跟第三階段不知道你們有沒有發現這是央廣指定特定的範圍就央廣指定的特定的範圍去讓你查核結果我們發現你看第一階段無法勾擊的比例還是高達將近48%如果要把這個我們可以回復加進去超過一半你指定的範圍我們竟然還是沒有辦法勾擊第三階段\n\n8\n00:02:42,162 --> 00:03:01,632\n一樣是你這個特定的範圍結果呢高達九成多無法勾擊那你更不要講說沒有特定的範圍也是六成多無法勾擊喔所以我覺得這個很誇張啦就換句話說我們有一半以上的領據喔是沒有辦法查核的喔那有這麼高比例的異常喔其實我必須要講喔這真的是一團亂戰啦\n\n9\n00:03:03,573 --> 00:03:21,442\n已經不是說什麼平衣行事了還是什麼疏失了我覺得你要說這裡面有人謀不章或者有其他的狀況我覺得都不為過所以我覺得這個部長是應該要去了解一下的那當然了這個在文化部在111年的4月份的時候\n\n10\n00:03:22,502 --> 00:03:51,531\n當時送了地檢署跟這個聯證署來調查所以這個事件被披露這個是延宕一年之後才送這個我覺得必須要了解為什麼延宕這麼多可是呢這個查核報告還有一點他說查核人員根本無法確認樣本量的存在性跟正確性那也難怪嘛那難怪地檢署聯證署查了三年還查不出所以然來好我們看到之前我們還把它列為這個機密那如果按照\n\n11\n00:03:52,051 --> 00:04:04,299\n之前的文化部跟部長提的說要等到司法機關查出來才要解密那你這樣永遠就沒有解密的時候了我覺得這很誇張耶部長所以我想這個查核報在110年1月我們就送到了文化部來了那當時文化部有要求說你趕快改善不過央保到113年才說要重新建置會計賬戶系統而且據本期了解到現在還沒有辦法建置改善完畢\n\n12\n00:04:22,091 --> 00:04:49,053\n市長您可以接受央廣這樣的效率跟這件事事後這樣的處理嗎非常不能接受因為我的工作50年以來我接觸過非常多這種機構裡面會長期累積的一些問題我聽了蠻痛心的那我也希望未來的所有的查核機制本身內容的一些建置一個比較完整的那個會計系統內控我希望能夠很快建立\n\n13\n00:04:49,753 --> 00:04:54,537\n你希望趕快建立嗎所以一個月之內我們有辦法把它建立起來嗎我請那個沒有沒有部長還是要了解一個月內可以嗎其實他們2021年之後就來做這個事情一個月應該沒問題的其實在當時發生後的一個月就應該要檢討了三四年後我覺得太離譜了啦好不好所以部長拜託我希望這件事情你要有魄力\n\n14\n00:05:14,594 --> 00:05:29,724\n雖然不是在你的任內但是我們要看看央廣到底發生什麼事情了我想其實我們在央廣有一些節目製作各方面還是很好的但是不能因為有一些做得很好這件事情我們把它當作疏忽我覺得不可以這樣子那另外剛剛也有提出來說我們這個當時吹哨者\n\n15\n00:05:32,566 --> 00:05:44,693\n他是一位在央广任职25年的台语导播那他有提出来说因为呢他这个出来做吹哨者了所以他遭到这个职场的霸凌那这件事情那个部长有没有去了解\n\n16\n00:05:45,575 --> 00:06:05,260\n我稍微了解我覺得他所謂的職長霸凌他講的這件事情其實蠻複雜經過調查後他不成立不成立之後他再申請調查所以又重啟調查所以他不是用一個高層次案升官這樣的字眼去形容整件事他沒那麼單純\n\n17\n00:06:06,578 --> 00:06:09,900\n好部長既然這件事情沒有那麼單純但是呢這個吹哨者其實也有在站出來為這件事情再發出不平之聲我希望部長我們是不是應該把這個案子到底過去怎麼發生了你看看百分之四十幾\n\n18\n00:06:22,888 --> 00:06:41,785\n就我們能夠查到就百分之四十幾將近一半這個單據啊其實涉及炸零不時的核銷然後呢又有吹哨者被職場霸凌那甚至於當年啊可能有做錯事的人不斷在升官我希望部長能不能用你現在是文化部的部長的這樣的高度這整個案子全部重啟調查可以嗎\n\n19\n00:06:42,629 --> 00:07:05,745\n沒問題我想我會全部了解那我們一個月內可以把這個報告出來嗎可以好謝謝那接下來部長我想繼續跟您請教我想最近這幾年來AI的技術可以說是發展非常的迅速而且應用在這個藝術創作的案例可以說是越來越多不管是AI的音樂畫作劇本等等那文化部其實也跟台灣人工智慧實驗室來合作\n\n20\n00:07:07,546 --> 00:07:20,439\n也呃籌建了一個流行音樂中心AI實驗基地在花蓮嘛喔那我想請教一下部長喔我們現在除了這個花蓮的流行音樂中心AI實驗基地之外現在還有沒有其他地方也要來做的計畫\n\n21\n00:07:22,093 --> 00:07:40,819\n有其實我們最近不斷地在內部討論AI對我們未來的創作可以有什麼影響然後有什麼幫助那這也會有一些可能租作權的問題所以我們現在除了花蓮的這個實驗基地沒有其他的了是嗎沒有有一直在做但我想部長講得很好這也是我們必須要拿來討論的就是說\n\n22\n00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:54,587\n我們其實一定程度也是代表文化部有去支持這個AI協助創作支持的一個方向所以我們才會籌建這個實驗基地不過就像您剛剛所說的這也觸發了相關的作品或者風格的一些侵權或者是剽竊或者是影響的疑慮跟爭議這裡面我們都有在討論\n\n23\n00:08:06,115 --> 00:08:17,457\n所以你怎麼看這個AI對於藝術家來說它到底是一個創作者角色會變成一種威脅還是創作力催生的一種協同所以您也是一個作家您怎麼看這個部分\n\n24\n00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:37,597\n我覺得他是兩面的他有時候太快的輸進去可以有創作出來跟我們創作差不多這是一個危機這是一個危機譬如說我們最近有個繪本比賽評完之後我就會找兩個負責AI的評審重新看一遍得獎作品看他們是不是AI深層\n\n25\n00:08:38,457 --> 00:08:51,542\n這是一個負面的可是我們也不能排斥AI能夠做了很多工作有可能是比過去更方便很好部長我覺得您這個方向都非常的正確那也考慮得非常的周全正因為你說這是一體兩面所以我們才要認真仔細好我舉一個國安的例子\n\n26\n00:08:55,723 --> 00:09:20,238\n根据英国创作者权力联盟工会来调查他们有四分之一的插画家跟超过三分之一的翻译者因为AI失业了而超过86%的工会会员他也很担心他自身不管是风格或者是他的声音等等在AI训练的过程当中遭到模仿或剽窃会使他的创作价值受损我们看到在国内也像您刚刚所说的\n\n27\n00:09:20,638 --> 00:09:48,560\n我們也一直都有一些爭議包括AI這個生成作品的這個利用這個作品去參加比賽得到獎項那引發這個大家覺得不公平啦那也有這個插畫家的會師啊這個被AI侵權啦等等啦所以這就是您剛剛所說的好那我們就來討論所以你看我們如果在推動這個AI創作的同時有知道有這些問題但是我們沒有明確的這個規範跟指引其實這就會是一種衝擊所以好\n\n28\n00:09:50,521 --> 00:10:05,974\n都點頭嗎沒有錯所以你看我們現在政院版的AI基本法還卡在行政院所以隨著我們現在不管是法律法規落後於AI跳躍式的發展我們快跟不上了所以創作人的權益其實就會去一種不平衡\n\n29\n00:10:06,835 --> 00:10:33,113\n那文化部在去年12月中旬有說過我們現在在蒐集國際案例跟國內藝文產業的意見要來研擬文化藝術應用生成式的AI規範指引並且要預計在今年上半年來發布請問一下部長這個進度現在到哪裡了知道原來的進度在2025年的上半年會發布因為這個部分從去年開始所以是幾月幾月我問一下\n\n30\n00:10:36,011 --> 00:10:47,407\n6月對6月好所以我們確定6月份這一份文化藝術應用生成式AI規範指引就會出來嘛對不對好那我想大方向問一下我們這個指引要怎麼規範\n\n31\n00:10:50,562 --> 00:11:08,750\n我們會在各種比賽裡面非常嚴格的要求他不能夠是AI的生成但是反過來也不斷的告訴藝文工作者AI跟他之間的這種限制跟利用規範裡面會訂的很清楚\n\n32\n00:11:09,150 --> 00:11:26,095\n那部長我想我這邊能不能這樣要求啊因為六月我們正式的這個指引要出來嘛那我們是希望能不能夠在比如說四月五月的時候啊我們有一個大方向能不能先把這個大方向讓我們所有的委員會的委員先知道一下整個方向大概是往哪個地方走可以嗎可以嗎\n\n33\n00:11:29,116 --> 00:11:57,315\n就是我們六月嘛所以我們可不可以五月初好不好五月初的時候把這個大方先給大家那也許我們大家還可以有集思廣益有一些更寶貴的意見可以給各位其實我們在我們所有過去的辦法裡都加了這一條以前沒有加現在所有補助辦法跟比賽我們都加就像我剛剛講說我們還會加一個AI的評審看看作品有沒有AI的生成等等雖然我們的範例還沒有那個辦法還沒出來可是我們已經在我們的所有條例裡面修改\n\n34\n00:11:57,955 --> 00:12:07,827\n好那部長反正我們就是剛才我們說的央廣的部分一個月內要給我一個報告然後這個部分的話五月初大方向給我們六月我們要公佈好不好好謝謝好謝謝萬美玲委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5063\t10567\t好 謝謝召委一樣有請我們李遠部長還有我們賴董事長好 新理部長跟楊廣賴董事長\n20062\t37100\t我想央广最近这件事情闹得沸沸扬扬但是刚才我听到您说这个查核报告您没有看我们来回顾一下这个央广在110年4月的时候当时被媒体爆出制作不实的单据那像这个陆委会等等的公部门榨领了相关的公费\n37740\t55081\t那那個時候其實文化部到了這個隔兩個月才去函要求這個公正查核那央廣也花了大概半年多的時間到111年的1月把查核報告送到文化部那不曉得為什麼要列為這個機密當然現在把它解密之後我們才發現說\n56943\t77872\t其中6697筆領據竟然有高達2885筆的領據是異常的這個比例已經高達了43%而且這是目前可以查到的部分那如果還有一些我們不知道沒有公布的我們還不知道有多少但是本席比較驚訝的是部長您竟然說你沒有看過這個查核報告為什麼\n80779\t104799\t我想我最近還沒有機會看到因為他最近這個事情我其實一開始根本搞不清楚因為四年前後來經過我了解以後我想這個當然不是在您的任內但是我們要大刀闊斧的去改變過去的一些陋習或者是有一些其實不合理不合法的地方我覺得您身為現任的部長是應該要去了解的\n105379\t119749\t你看喔既然您說你沒有看過我想整理一下其實沒有看過連最近媒體在報也沒有去注意嘛你看它不管是這個節目沒有辦法核對好像每一集的這個集數是不相符的那甚至於來賓是不對的還有這個偽造簽名的那麼日期跟播出時間不一的等等這些其實都非常的誇張啦我相信您身為這個從這個電視人來從媒體來喔您一定會發現這樣的狀況其實是匪夷所思的喔好 我們再來看一個喔\n134099\t161381\t根據這個查核報告我們看到我們看一下那個到查核報告這邊這個查核報告我們看到第一階段跟第三階段不知道你們有沒有發現這是央廣指定特定的範圍就央廣指定的特定的範圍去讓你查核結果我們發現你看第一階段無法勾擊的比例還是高達將近48%如果要把這個我們可以回復加進去超過一半你指定的範圍我們竟然還是沒有辦法勾擊第三階段\n162162\t181632\t一樣是你這個特定的範圍結果呢高達九成多無法勾擊那你更不要講說沒有特定的範圍也是六成多無法勾擊喔所以我覺得這個很誇張啦就換句話說我們有一半以上的領據喔是沒有辦法查核的喔那有這麼高比例的異常喔其實我必須要講喔這真的是一團亂戰啦\n183573\t201442\t已經不是說什麼平衣行事了還是什麼疏失了我覺得你要說這裡面有人謀不章或者有其他的狀況我覺得都不為過所以我覺得這個部長是應該要去了解一下的那當然了這個在文化部在111年的4月份的時候\n202502\t231531\t當時送了地檢署跟這個聯證署來調查所以這個事件被披露這個是延宕一年之後才送這個我覺得必須要了解為什麼延宕這麼多可是呢這個查核報告還有一點他說查核人員根本無法確認樣本量的存在性跟正確性那也難怪嘛那難怪地檢署聯證署查了三年還查不出所以然來好我們看到之前我們還把它列為這個機密那如果按照\n232051\t244299\t之前的文化部跟部長提的說要等到司法機關查出來才要解密那你這樣永遠就沒有解密的時候了我覺得這很誇張耶部長所以我想這個查核報在110年1月我們就送到了文化部來了那當時文化部有要求說你趕快改善不過央保到113年才說要重新建置會計賬戶系統而且據本期了解到現在還沒有辦法建置改善完畢\n262091\t289053\t市長您可以接受央廣這樣的效率跟這件事事後這樣的處理嗎非常不能接受因為我的工作50年以來我接觸過非常多這種機構裡面會長期累積的一些問題我聽了蠻痛心的那我也希望未來的所有的查核機制本身內容的一些建置一個比較完整的那個會計系統內控我希望能夠很快建立\n289753\t294537\t你希望趕快建立嗎所以一個月之內我們有辦法把它建立起來嗎我請那個沒有沒有 部長還是要了解一個月內可以嗎其實他們2021年之後就來做這個事情一個月應該沒問題的其實在當時發生後的一個月就應該要檢討了三四年後我覺得太離譜了啦好不好所以部長 拜託我希望這件事情你要有魄力\n314594\t329724\t雖然不是在你的任內但是我們要看看央廣到底發生什麼事情了我想其實我們在央廣有一些節目製作各方面還是很好的但是不能因為有一些做得很好這件事情我們把它當作疏忽我覺得不可以這樣子那另外剛剛也有提出來說我們這個當時吹哨者\n332566\t344693\t他是一位在央广任职25年的台语导播那他有提出来说因为呢他这个出来做吹哨者了所以他遭到这个职场的霸凌那这件事情那个部长有没有去了解\n345575\t365260\t我稍微了解 我覺得他所謂的職長霸凌 他講的這件事情其實蠻複雜經過調查後他不成立 不成立之後他再申請調查所以又重啟調查 所以他不是用一個高層次案升官這樣的字眼去形容整件事 他沒那麼單純\n366578\t369900\t好 部長 既然這件事情沒有那麼單純但是呢 這個吹哨者其實也有在站出來為這件事情再發出不平之聲我希望部長我們是不是應該把這個案子到底過去怎麼發生了你看看百分之四十幾\n382888\t401785\t就我們能夠查到就百分之四十幾將近一半這個單據啊其實涉及炸零不時的核銷然後呢又有吹哨者被職場霸凌那甚至於當年啊可能有做錯事的人不斷在升官我希望部長能不能用你現在是文化部的部長的這樣的高度這整個案子全部重啟調查可以嗎\n402629\t425745\t沒問題我想我會全部了解那我們一個月內可以把這個報告出來嗎可以好謝謝那接下來部長我想繼續跟您請教我想最近這幾年來AI的技術可以說是發展非常的迅速而且應用在這個藝術創作的案例可以說是越來越多不管是AI的音樂畫作劇本等等那文化部其實也跟台灣人工智慧實驗室來合作\n427546\t440439\t也呃 籌建了一個流行音樂中心AI實驗基地在花蓮嘛喔那我想請教一下部長喔我們現在除了這個花蓮的流行音樂中心AI實驗基地之外現在還有沒有其他地方也要來做的計畫\n442093\t460819\t有 其實我們最近不斷地在內部討論AI對我們未來的創作可以有什麼影響然後有什麼幫助那這也會有一些可能租作權的問題所以我們現在除了花蓮的這個實驗基地沒有其他的了是嗎沒有 有一直在做但我想部長講得很好這也是我們必須要拿來討論的就是說\n464440\t474587\t我們其實一定程度也是代表文化部有去支持這個AI協助創作支持的一個方向所以我們才會籌建這個實驗基地不過就像您剛剛所說的這也觸發了相關的作品或者風格的一些侵權或者是剽竊或者是影響的疑慮跟爭議這裡面我們都有在討論\n486115\t497457\t所以你怎麼看這個AI對於藝術家來說它到底是一個創作者角色會變成一種威脅還是創作力催生的一種協同所以您也是一個作家您怎麼看這個部分\n498680\t517597\t我覺得他是兩面的他有時候太快的輸進去可以有創作出來跟我們創作差不多這是一個危機這是一個危機 譬如說我們最近有個繪本比賽評完之後我就會找兩個負責AI的評審重新看一遍得獎作品看他們是不是AI深層\n518457\t531542\t這是一個負面的可是我們也不能排斥AI能夠做了很多工作有可能是比過去更方便很好部長我覺得您這個方向都非常的正確那也考慮得非常的周全正因為你說這是一體兩面所以我們才要認真仔細好 我舉一個國安的例子\n535723\t560238\t根据英国创作者权力联盟工会来调查他们有四分之一的插画家跟超过三分之一的翻译者因为AI失业了而超过86%的工会会员他也很担心他自身不管是风格或者是他的声音等等在AI训练的过程当中遭到模仿或剽窃会使他的创作价值受损我们看到在国内也像您刚刚所说的\n560638\t588560\t我們也一直都有一些爭議包括AI這個生成作品的這個利用這個作品去參加比賽得到獎項那引發這個大家覺得不公平啦那也有這個插畫家的會師啊這個被AI侵權啦等等啦所以這就是您剛剛所說的好那我們就來討論所以你看我們如果在推動這個AI創作的同時有知道有這些問題但是我們沒有明確的這個規範跟指引其實這就會是一種衝擊所以好\n590521\t605974\t都點頭嗎 沒有錯所以你看我們現在政院版的AI基本法還卡在行政院所以隨著我們現在不管是法律 法規落後於AI跳躍式的發展我們快跟不上了所以創作人的權益其實就會去一種不平衡\n606835\t633113\t那文化部在去年12月中旬有說過我們現在在蒐集國際案例跟國內藝文產業的意見要來研擬文化藝術應用生成式的AI規範指引並且要預計在今年上半年來發布請問一下部長這個進度現在到哪裡了知道原來的進度在2025年的上半年會發布因為這個部分從去年開始所以是幾月幾月我問一下\n636011\t647407\t6月對6月好所以我們確定6月份這一份文化藝術應用生成式AI規範指引就會出來嘛對不對好那我想大方向問一下我們這個指引要怎麼規範\n650562\t668750\t我們會在各種比賽裡面非常嚴格的要求他不能夠是AI的生成但是反過來也不斷的告訴藝文工作者AI跟他之間的這種限制跟利用規範裡面會訂的很清楚\n669150\t686095\t那部長我想我這邊能不能這樣要求啊因為六月我們正式的這個指引要出來嘛那我們是希望能不能夠在比如說四月五月的時候啊我們有一個大方向能不能先把這個大方向讓我們所有的委員會的委員先知道一下整個方向大概是往哪個地方走可以嗎可以嗎\n689116\t717315\t就是我們六月嘛所以我們可不可以五月初好不好五月初的時候把這個大方先給大家那也許我們大家還可以有集思廣益有一些更寶貴的意見可以給各位其實我們在我們所有過去的辦法裡都加了這一條以前沒有加現在所有補助辦法跟比賽我們都加就像我剛剛講說我們還會加一個AI的評審看看作品有沒有AI的生成等等雖然我們的範例還沒有那個辦法還沒出來可是我們已經在我們的所有條例裡面修改\n717955\t727827\t好 那部長反正我們就是剛才我們說的央廣的部分一個月內要給我一個報告然後這個部分的話五月初大方向給我們六月我們要公佈好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝萬美玲委員\n","txt":"好 謝謝召委一樣有請我們李遠部長還有我們賴董事長好 新理部長跟楊廣賴董事長\n我想央广最近这件事情闹得沸沸扬扬但是刚才我听到您说这个查核报告您没有看我们来回顾一下这个央广在110年4月的时候当时被媒体爆出制作不实的单据那像这个陆委会等等的公部门榨领了相关的公费\n那那個時候其實文化部到了這個隔兩個月才去函要求這個公正查核那央廣也花了大概半年多的時間到111年的1月把查核報告送到文化部那不曉得為什麼要列為這個機密當然現在把它解密之後我們才發現說\n其中6697筆領據竟然有高達2885筆的領據是異常的這個比例已經高達了43%而且這是目前可以查到的部分那如果還有一些我們不知道沒有公布的我們還不知道有多少但是本席比較驚訝的是部長您竟然說你沒有看過這個查核報告為什麼\n我想我最近還沒有機會看到因為他最近這個事情我其實一開始根本搞不清楚因為四年前後來經過我了解以後我想這個當然不是在您的任內但是我們要大刀闊斧的去改變過去的一些陋習或者是有一些其實不合理不合法的地方我覺得您身為現任的部長是應該要去了解的\n你看喔既然您說你沒有看過我想整理一下其實沒有看過連最近媒體在報也沒有去注意嘛你看它不管是這個節目沒有辦法核對好像每一集的這個集數是不相符的那甚至於來賓是不對的還有這個偽造簽名的那麼日期跟播出時間不一的等等這些其實都非常的誇張啦我相信您身為這個從這個電視人來從媒體來喔您一定會發現這樣的狀況其實是匪夷所思的喔好 我們再來看一個喔\n根據這個查核報告我們看到我們看一下那個到查核報告這邊這個查核報告我們看到第一階段跟第三階段不知道你們有沒有發現這是央廣指定特定的範圍就央廣指定的特定的範圍去讓你查核結果我們發現你看第一階段無法勾擊的比例還是高達將近48%如果要把這個我們可以回復加進去超過一半你指定的範圍我們竟然還是沒有辦法勾擊第三階段\n一樣是你這個特定的範圍結果呢高達九成多無法勾擊那你更不要講說沒有特定的範圍也是六成多無法勾擊喔所以我覺得這個很誇張啦就換句話說我們有一半以上的領據喔是沒有辦法查核的喔那有這麼高比例的異常喔其實我必須要講喔這真的是一團亂戰啦\n已經不是說什麼平衣行事了還是什麼疏失了我覺得你要說這裡面有人謀不章或者有其他的狀況我覺得都不為過所以我覺得這個部長是應該要去了解一下的那當然了這個在文化部在111年的4月份的時候\n當時送了地檢署跟這個聯證署來調查所以這個事件被披露這個是延宕一年之後才送這個我覺得必須要了解為什麼延宕這麼多可是呢這個查核報告還有一點他說查核人員根本無法確認樣本量的存在性跟正確性那也難怪嘛那難怪地檢署聯證署查了三年還查不出所以然來好我們看到之前我們還把它列為這個機密那如果按照\n之前的文化部跟部長提的說要等到司法機關查出來才要解密那你這樣永遠就沒有解密的時候了我覺得這很誇張耶部長所以我想這個查核報在110年1月我們就送到了文化部來了那當時文化部有要求說你趕快改善不過央保到113年才說要重新建置會計賬戶系統而且據本期了解到現在還沒有辦法建置改善完畢\n市長您可以接受央廣這樣的效率跟這件事事後這樣的處理嗎非常不能接受因為我的工作50年以來我接觸過非常多這種機構裡面會長期累積的一些問題我聽了蠻痛心的那我也希望未來的所有的查核機制本身內容的一些建置一個比較完整的那個會計系統內控我希望能夠很快建立\n你希望趕快建立嗎所以一個月之內我們有辦法把它建立起來嗎我請那個沒有沒有 部長還是要了解一個月內可以嗎其實他們2021年之後就來做這個事情一個月應該沒問題的其實在當時發生後的一個月就應該要檢討了三四年後我覺得太離譜了啦好不好所以部長 拜託我希望這件事情你要有魄力\n雖然不是在你的任內但是我們要看看央廣到底發生什麼事情了我想其實我們在央廣有一些節目製作各方面還是很好的但是不能因為有一些做得很好這件事情我們把它當作疏忽我覺得不可以這樣子那另外剛剛也有提出來說我們這個當時吹哨者\n他是一位在央广任职25年的台语导播那他有提出来说因为呢他这个出来做吹哨者了所以他遭到这个职场的霸凌那这件事情那个部长有没有去了解\n我稍微了解 我覺得他所謂的職長霸凌 他講的這件事情其實蠻複雜經過調查後他不成立 不成立之後他再申請調查所以又重啟調查 所以他不是用一個高層次案升官這樣的字眼去形容整件事 他沒那麼單純\n好 部長 既然這件事情沒有那麼單純但是呢 這個吹哨者其實也有在站出來為這件事情再發出不平之聲我希望部長我們是不是應該把這個案子到底過去怎麼發生了你看看百分之四十幾\n就我們能夠查到就百分之四十幾將近一半這個單據啊其實涉及炸零不時的核銷然後呢又有吹哨者被職場霸凌那甚至於當年啊可能有做錯事的人不斷在升官我希望部長能不能用你現在是文化部的部長的這樣的高度這整個案子全部重啟調查可以嗎\n沒問題我想我會全部了解那我們一個月內可以把這個報告出來嗎可以好謝謝那接下來部長我想繼續跟您請教我想最近這幾年來AI的技術可以說是發展非常的迅速而且應用在這個藝術創作的案例可以說是越來越多不管是AI的音樂畫作劇本等等那文化部其實也跟台灣人工智慧實驗室來合作\n也呃 籌建了一個流行音樂中心AI實驗基地在花蓮嘛喔那我想請教一下部長喔我們現在除了這個花蓮的流行音樂中心AI實驗基地之外現在還有沒有其他地方也要來做的計畫\n有 其實我們最近不斷地在內部討論AI對我們未來的創作可以有什麼影響然後有什麼幫助那這也會有一些可能租作權的問題所以我們現在除了花蓮的這個實驗基地沒有其他的了是嗎沒有 有一直在做但我想部長講得很好這也是我們必須要拿來討論的就是說\n我們其實一定程度也是代表文化部有去支持這個AI協助創作支持的一個方向所以我們才會籌建這個實驗基地不過就像您剛剛所說的這也觸發了相關的作品或者風格的一些侵權或者是剽竊或者是影響的疑慮跟爭議這裡面我們都有在討論\n所以你怎麼看這個AI對於藝術家來說它到底是一個創作者角色會變成一種威脅還是創作力催生的一種協同所以您也是一個作家您怎麼看這個部分\n我覺得他是兩面的他有時候太快的輸進去可以有創作出來跟我們創作差不多這是一個危機這是一個危機 譬如說我們最近有個繪本比賽評完之後我就會找兩個負責AI的評審重新看一遍得獎作品看他們是不是AI深層\n這是一個負面的可是我們也不能排斥AI能夠做了很多工作有可能是比過去更方便很好部長我覺得您這個方向都非常的正確那也考慮得非常的周全正因為你說這是一體兩面所以我們才要認真仔細好 我舉一個國安的例子\n根据英国创作者权力联盟工会来调查他们有四分之一的插画家跟超过三分之一的翻译者因为AI失业了而超过86%的工会会员他也很担心他自身不管是风格或者是他的声音等等在AI训练的过程当中遭到模仿或剽窃会使他的创作价值受损我们看到在国内也像您刚刚所说的\n我們也一直都有一些爭議包括AI這個生成作品的這個利用這個作品去參加比賽得到獎項那引發這個大家覺得不公平啦那也有這個插畫家的會師啊這個被AI侵權啦等等啦所以這就是您剛剛所說的好那我們就來討論所以你看我們如果在推動這個AI創作的同時有知道有這些問題但是我們沒有明確的這個規範跟指引其實這就會是一種衝擊所以好\n都點頭嗎 沒有錯所以你看我們現在政院版的AI基本法還卡在行政院所以隨著我們現在不管是法律 法規落後於AI跳躍式的發展我們快跟不上了所以創作人的權益其實就會去一種不平衡\n那文化部在去年12月中旬有說過我們現在在蒐集國際案例跟國內藝文產業的意見要來研擬文化藝術應用生成式的AI規範指引並且要預計在今年上半年來發布請問一下部長這個進度現在到哪裡了知道原來的進度在2025年的上半年會發布因為這個部分從去年開始所以是幾月幾月我問一下\n6月對6月好所以我們確定6月份這一份文化藝術應用生成式AI規範指引就會出來嘛對不對好那我想大方向問一下我們這個指引要怎麼規範\n我們會在各種比賽裡面非常嚴格的要求他不能夠是AI的生成但是反過來也不斷的告訴藝文工作者AI跟他之間的這種限制跟利用規範裡面會訂的很清楚\n那部長我想我這邊能不能這樣要求啊因為六月我們正式的這個指引要出來嘛那我們是希望能不能夠在比如說四月五月的時候啊我們有一個大方向能不能先把這個大方向讓我們所有的委員會的委員先知道一下整個方向大概是往哪個地方走可以嗎可以嗎\n就是我們六月嘛所以我們可不可以五月初好不好五月初的時候把這個大方先給大家那也許我們大家還可以有集思廣益有一些更寶貴的意見可以給各位其實我們在我們所有過去的辦法裡都加了這一條以前沒有加現在所有補助辦法跟比賽我們都加就像我剛剛講說我們還會加一個AI的評審看看作品有沒有AI的生成等等雖然我們的範例還沒有那個辦法還沒出來可是我們已經在我們的所有條例裡面修改\n好 那部長反正我們就是剛才我們說的央廣的部分一個月內要給我一個報告然後這個部分的話五月初大方向給我們六月我們要公佈好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝萬美玲委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.063 --> 00:10.567\n好謝謝召委一樣有請我們李遠部長還有我們賴董事長好新理部長跟楊廣賴董事長\n\n00:20.062 --> 00:37.100\n我想央广最近这件事情闹得沸沸扬扬但是刚才我听到您说这个查核报告您没有看我们来回顾一下这个央广在110年4月的时候当时被媒体爆出制作不实的单据那像这个陆委会等等的公部门榨领了相关的公费\n\n00:37.740 --> 00:55.081\n那那個時候其實文化部到了這個隔兩個月才去函要求這個公正查核那央廣也花了大概半年多的時間到111年的1月把查核報告送到文化部那不曉得為什麼要列為這個機密當然現在把它解密之後我們才發現說\n\n00:56.943 --> 01:17.872\n其中6697筆領據竟然有高達2885筆的領據是異常的這個比例已經高達了43%而且這是目前可以查到的部分那如果還有一些我們不知道沒有公布的我們還不知道有多少但是本席比較驚訝的是部長您竟然說你沒有看過這個查核報告為什麼\n\n01:20.779 --> 01:44.799\n我想我最近還沒有機會看到因為他最近這個事情我其實一開始根本搞不清楚因為四年前後來經過我了解以後我想這個當然不是在您的任內但是我們要大刀闊斧的去改變過去的一些陋習或者是有一些其實不合理不合法的地方我覺得您身為現任的部長是應該要去了解的\n\n01:45.379 --> 01:59.749\n你看喔既然您說你沒有看過我想整理一下其實沒有看過連最近媒體在報也沒有去注意嘛你看它不管是這個節目沒有辦法核對好像每一集的這個集數是不相符的那甚至於來賓是不對的還有這個偽造簽名的那麼日期跟播出時間不一的等等這些其實都非常的誇張啦我相信您身為這個從這個電視人來從媒體來喔您一定會發現這樣的狀況其實是匪夷所思的喔好我們再來看一個喔\n\n02:14.099 --> 02:41.381\n根據這個查核報告我們看到我們看一下那個到查核報告這邊這個查核報告我們看到第一階段跟第三階段不知道你們有沒有發現這是央廣指定特定的範圍就央廣指定的特定的範圍去讓你查核結果我們發現你看第一階段無法勾擊的比例還是高達將近48%如果要把這個我們可以回復加進去超過一半你指定的範圍我們竟然還是沒有辦法勾擊第三階段\n\n02:42.162 --> 03:01.632\n一樣是你這個特定的範圍結果呢高達九成多無法勾擊那你更不要講說沒有特定的範圍也是六成多無法勾擊喔所以我覺得這個很誇張啦就換句話說我們有一半以上的領據喔是沒有辦法查核的喔那有這麼高比例的異常喔其實我必須要講喔這真的是一團亂戰啦\n\n03:03.573 --> 03:21.442\n已經不是說什麼平衣行事了還是什麼疏失了我覺得你要說這裡面有人謀不章或者有其他的狀況我覺得都不為過所以我覺得這個部長是應該要去了解一下的那當然了這個在文化部在111年的4月份的時候\n\n03:22.502 --> 03:51.531\n當時送了地檢署跟這個聯證署來調查所以這個事件被披露這個是延宕一年之後才送這個我覺得必須要了解為什麼延宕這麼多可是呢這個查核報告還有一點他說查核人員根本無法確認樣本量的存在性跟正確性那也難怪嘛那難怪地檢署聯證署查了三年還查不出所以然來好我們看到之前我們還把它列為這個機密那如果按照\n\n03:52.051 --> 04:04.299\n之前的文化部跟部長提的說要等到司法機關查出來才要解密那你這樣永遠就沒有解密的時候了我覺得這很誇張耶部長所以我想這個查核報在110年1月我們就送到了文化部來了那當時文化部有要求說你趕快改善不過央保到113年才說要重新建置會計賬戶系統而且據本期了解到現在還沒有辦法建置改善完畢\n\n04:22.091 --> 04:49.053\n市長您可以接受央廣這樣的效率跟這件事事後這樣的處理嗎非常不能接受因為我的工作50年以來我接觸過非常多這種機構裡面會長期累積的一些問題我聽了蠻痛心的那我也希望未來的所有的查核機制本身內容的一些建置一個比較完整的那個會計系統內控我希望能夠很快建立\n\n04:49.753 --> 04:54.537\n你希望趕快建立嗎所以一個月之內我們有辦法把它建立起來嗎我請那個沒有沒有部長還是要了解一個月內可以嗎其實他們2021年之後就來做這個事情一個月應該沒問題的其實在當時發生後的一個月就應該要檢討了三四年後我覺得太離譜了啦好不好所以部長拜託我希望這件事情你要有魄力\n\n05:14.594 --> 05:29.724\n雖然不是在你的任內但是我們要看看央廣到底發生什麼事情了我想其實我們在央廣有一些節目製作各方面還是很好的但是不能因為有一些做得很好這件事情我們把它當作疏忽我覺得不可以這樣子那另外剛剛也有提出來說我們這個當時吹哨者\n\n05:32.566 --> 05:44.693\n他是一位在央广任职25年的台语导播那他有提出来说因为呢他这个出来做吹哨者了所以他遭到这个职场的霸凌那这件事情那个部长有没有去了解\n\n05:45.575 --> 06:05.260\n我稍微了解我覺得他所謂的職長霸凌他講的這件事情其實蠻複雜經過調查後他不成立不成立之後他再申請調查所以又重啟調查所以他不是用一個高層次案升官這樣的字眼去形容整件事他沒那麼單純\n\n06:06.578 --> 06:09.900\n好部長既然這件事情沒有那麼單純但是呢這個吹哨者其實也有在站出來為這件事情再發出不平之聲我希望部長我們是不是應該把這個案子到底過去怎麼發生了你看看百分之四十幾\n\n06:22.888 --> 06:41.785\n就我們能夠查到就百分之四十幾將近一半這個單據啊其實涉及炸零不時的核銷然後呢又有吹哨者被職場霸凌那甚至於當年啊可能有做錯事的人不斷在升官我希望部長能不能用你現在是文化部的部長的這樣的高度這整個案子全部重啟調查可以嗎\n\n06:42.629 --> 07:05.745\n沒問題我想我會全部了解那我們一個月內可以把這個報告出來嗎可以好謝謝那接下來部長我想繼續跟您請教我想最近這幾年來AI的技術可以說是發展非常的迅速而且應用在這個藝術創作的案例可以說是越來越多不管是AI的音樂畫作劇本等等那文化部其實也跟台灣人工智慧實驗室來合作\n\n07:07.546 --> 07:20.439\n也呃籌建了一個流行音樂中心AI實驗基地在花蓮嘛喔那我想請教一下部長喔我們現在除了這個花蓮的流行音樂中心AI實驗基地之外現在還有沒有其他地方也要來做的計畫\n\n07:22.093 --> 07:40.819\n有其實我們最近不斷地在內部討論AI對我們未來的創作可以有什麼影響然後有什麼幫助那這也會有一些可能租作權的問題所以我們現在除了花蓮的這個實驗基地沒有其他的了是嗎沒有有一直在做但我想部長講得很好這也是我們必須要拿來討論的就是說\n\n07:44.440 --> 07:54.587\n我們其實一定程度也是代表文化部有去支持這個AI協助創作支持的一個方向所以我們才會籌建這個實驗基地不過就像您剛剛所說的這也觸發了相關的作品或者風格的一些侵權或者是剽竊或者是影響的疑慮跟爭議這裡面我們都有在討論\n\n08:06.115 --> 08:17.457\n所以你怎麼看這個AI對於藝術家來說它到底是一個創作者角色會變成一種威脅還是創作力催生的一種協同所以您也是一個作家您怎麼看這個部分\n\n08:18.680 --> 08:37.597\n我覺得他是兩面的他有時候太快的輸進去可以有創作出來跟我們創作差不多這是一個危機這是一個危機譬如說我們最近有個繪本比賽評完之後我就會找兩個負責AI的評審重新看一遍得獎作品看他們是不是AI深層\n\n08:38.457 --> 08:51.542\n這是一個負面的可是我們也不能排斥AI能夠做了很多工作有可能是比過去更方便很好部長我覺得您這個方向都非常的正確那也考慮得非常的周全正因為你說這是一體兩面所以我們才要認真仔細好我舉一個國安的例子\n\n08:55.723 --> 09:20.238\n根据英国创作者权力联盟工会来调查他们有四分之一的插画家跟超过三分之一的翻译者因为AI失业了而超过86%的工会会员他也很担心他自身不管是风格或者是他的声音等等在AI训练的过程当中遭到模仿或剽窃会使他的创作价值受损我们看到在国内也像您刚刚所说的\n\n09:20.638 --> 09:48.560\n我們也一直都有一些爭議包括AI這個生成作品的這個利用這個作品去參加比賽得到獎項那引發這個大家覺得不公平啦那也有這個插畫家的會師啊這個被AI侵權啦等等啦所以這就是您剛剛所說的好那我們就來討論所以你看我們如果在推動這個AI創作的同時有知道有這些問題但是我們沒有明確的這個規範跟指引其實這就會是一種衝擊所以好\n\n09:50.521 --> 10:05.974\n都點頭嗎沒有錯所以你看我們現在政院版的AI基本法還卡在行政院所以隨著我們現在不管是法律法規落後於AI跳躍式的發展我們快跟不上了所以創作人的權益其實就會去一種不平衡\n\n10:06.835 --> 10:33.113\n那文化部在去年12月中旬有說過我們現在在蒐集國際案例跟國內藝文產業的意見要來研擬文化藝術應用生成式的AI規範指引並且要預計在今年上半年來發布請問一下部長這個進度現在到哪裡了知道原來的進度在2025年的上半年會發布因為這個部分從去年開始所以是幾月幾月我問一下\n\n10:36.011 --> 10:47.407\n6月對6月好所以我們確定6月份這一份文化藝術應用生成式AI規範指引就會出來嘛對不對好那我想大方向問一下我們這個指引要怎麼規範\n\n10:50.562 --> 11:08.750\n我們會在各種比賽裡面非常嚴格的要求他不能夠是AI的生成但是反過來也不斷的告訴藝文工作者AI跟他之間的這種限制跟利用規範裡面會訂的很清楚\n\n11:09.150 --> 11:26.095\n那部長我想我這邊能不能這樣要求啊因為六月我們正式的這個指引要出來嘛那我們是希望能不能夠在比如說四月五月的時候啊我們有一個大方向能不能先把這個大方向讓我們所有的委員會的委員先知道一下整個方向大概是往哪個地方走可以嗎可以嗎\n\n11:29.116 --> 11:57.315\n就是我們六月嘛所以我們可不可以五月初好不好五月初的時候把這個大方先給大家那也許我們大家還可以有集思廣益有一些更寶貴的意見可以給各位其實我們在我們所有過去的辦法裡都加了這一條以前沒有加現在所有補助辦法跟比賽我們都加就像我剛剛講說我們還會加一個AI的評審看看作品有沒有AI的生成等等雖然我們的範例還沒有那個辦法還沒出來可是我們已經在我們的所有條例裡面修改\n\n11:57.955 --> 12:07.827\n好那部長反正我們就是剛才我們說的央廣的部分一個月內要給我一個報告然後這個部分的話五月初大方向給我們六月我們要公佈好不好好謝謝好謝謝萬美玲委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.063,"end":10.567,"text":"好 謝謝召委一樣有請我們李遠部長還有我們賴董事長好 新理部長跟楊廣賴董事長"},{"start":20.062,"end":37.1,"text":"我想央广最近这件事情闹得沸沸扬扬但是刚才我听到您说这个查核报告您没有看我们来回顾一下这个央广在110年4月的时候当时被媒体爆出制作不实的单据那像这个陆委会等等的公部门榨领了相关的公费"},{"start":37.74,"end":55.081,"text":"那那個時候其實文化部到了這個隔兩個月才去函要求這個公正查核那央廣也花了大概半年多的時間到111年的1月把查核報告送到文化部那不曉得為什麼要列為這個機密當然現在把它解密之後我們才發現說"},{"start":56.943,"end":77.872,"text":"其中6697筆領據竟然有高達2885筆的領據是異常的這個比例已經高達了43%而且這是目前可以查到的部分那如果還有一些我們不知道沒有公布的我們還不知道有多少但是本席比較驚訝的是部長您竟然說你沒有看過這個查核報告為什麼"},{"start":80.779,"end":104.799,"text":"我想我最近還沒有機會看到因為他最近這個事情我其實一開始根本搞不清楚因為四年前後來經過我了解以後我想這個當然不是在您的任內但是我們要大刀闊斧的去改變過去的一些陋習或者是有一些其實不合理不合法的地方我覺得您身為現任的部長是應該要去了解的"},{"start":105.379,"end":119.749,"text":"你看喔既然您說你沒有看過我想整理一下其實沒有看過連最近媒體在報也沒有去注意嘛你看它不管是這個節目沒有辦法核對好像每一集的這個集數是不相符的那甚至於來賓是不對的還有這個偽造簽名的那麼日期跟播出時間不一的等等這些其實都非常的誇張啦我相信您身為這個從這個電視人來從媒體來喔您一定會發現這樣的狀況其實是匪夷所思的喔好 我們再來看一個喔"},{"start":134.099,"end":161.381,"text":"根據這個查核報告我們看到我們看一下那個到查核報告這邊這個查核報告我們看到第一階段跟第三階段不知道你們有沒有發現這是央廣指定特定的範圍就央廣指定的特定的範圍去讓你查核結果我們發現你看第一階段無法勾擊的比例還是高達將近48%如果要把這個我們可以回復加進去超過一半你指定的範圍我們竟然還是沒有辦法勾擊第三階段"},{"start":162.162,"end":181.632,"text":"一樣是你這個特定的範圍結果呢高達九成多無法勾擊那你更不要講說沒有特定的範圍也是六成多無法勾擊喔所以我覺得這個很誇張啦就換句話說我們有一半以上的領據喔是沒有辦法查核的喔那有這麼高比例的異常喔其實我必須要講喔這真的是一團亂戰啦"},{"start":183.573,"end":201.442,"text":"已經不是說什麼平衣行事了還是什麼疏失了我覺得你要說這裡面有人謀不章或者有其他的狀況我覺得都不為過所以我覺得這個部長是應該要去了解一下的那當然了這個在文化部在111年的4月份的時候"},{"start":202.502,"end":231.531,"text":"當時送了地檢署跟這個聯證署來調查所以這個事件被披露這個是延宕一年之後才送這個我覺得必須要了解為什麼延宕這麼多可是呢這個查核報告還有一點他說查核人員根本無法確認樣本量的存在性跟正確性那也難怪嘛那難怪地檢署聯證署查了三年還查不出所以然來好我們看到之前我們還把它列為這個機密那如果按照"},{"start":232.051,"end":244.299,"text":"之前的文化部跟部長提的說要等到司法機關查出來才要解密那你這樣永遠就沒有解密的時候了我覺得這很誇張耶部長所以我想這個查核報在110年1月我們就送到了文化部來了那當時文化部有要求說你趕快改善不過央保到113年才說要重新建置會計賬戶系統而且據本期了解到現在還沒有辦法建置改善完畢"},{"start":262.091,"end":289.053,"text":"市長您可以接受央廣這樣的效率跟這件事事後這樣的處理嗎非常不能接受因為我的工作50年以來我接觸過非常多這種機構裡面會長期累積的一些問題我聽了蠻痛心的那我也希望未來的所有的查核機制本身內容的一些建置一個比較完整的那個會計系統內控我希望能夠很快建立"},{"start":289.753,"end":294.537,"text":"你希望趕快建立嗎所以一個月之內我們有辦法把它建立起來嗎我請那個沒有沒有 部長還是要了解一個月內可以嗎其實他們2021年之後就來做這個事情一個月應該沒問題的其實在當時發生後的一個月就應該要檢討了三四年後我覺得太離譜了啦好不好所以部長 拜託我希望這件事情你要有魄力"},{"start":314.594,"end":329.724,"text":"雖然不是在你的任內但是我們要看看央廣到底發生什麼事情了我想其實我們在央廣有一些節目製作各方面還是很好的但是不能因為有一些做得很好這件事情我們把它當作疏忽我覺得不可以這樣子那另外剛剛也有提出來說我們這個當時吹哨者"},{"start":332.566,"end":344.693,"text":"他是一位在央广任职25年的台语导播那他有提出来说因为呢他这个出来做吹哨者了所以他遭到这个职场的霸凌那这件事情那个部长有没有去了解"},{"start":345.575,"end":365.26,"text":"我稍微了解 我覺得他所謂的職長霸凌 他講的這件事情其實蠻複雜經過調查後他不成立 不成立之後他再申請調查所以又重啟調查 所以他不是用一個高層次案升官這樣的字眼去形容整件事 他沒那麼單純"},{"start":366.578,"end":369.9,"text":"好 部長 既然這件事情沒有那麼單純但是呢 這個吹哨者其實也有在站出來為這件事情再發出不平之聲我希望部長我們是不是應該把這個案子到底過去怎麼發生了你看看百分之四十幾"},{"start":382.888,"end":401.785,"text":"就我們能夠查到就百分之四十幾將近一半這個單據啊其實涉及炸零不時的核銷然後呢又有吹哨者被職場霸凌那甚至於當年啊可能有做錯事的人不斷在升官我希望部長能不能用你現在是文化部的部長的這樣的高度這整個案子全部重啟調查可以嗎"},{"start":402.629,"end":425.745,"text":"沒問題我想我會全部了解那我們一個月內可以把這個報告出來嗎可以好謝謝那接下來部長我想繼續跟您請教我想最近這幾年來AI的技術可以說是發展非常的迅速而且應用在這個藝術創作的案例可以說是越來越多不管是AI的音樂畫作劇本等等那文化部其實也跟台灣人工智慧實驗室來合作"},{"start":427.546,"end":440.439,"text":"也呃 籌建了一個流行音樂中心AI實驗基地在花蓮嘛喔那我想請教一下部長喔我們現在除了這個花蓮的流行音樂中心AI實驗基地之外現在還有沒有其他地方也要來做的計畫"},{"start":442.093,"end":460.819,"text":"有 其實我們最近不斷地在內部討論AI對我們未來的創作可以有什麼影響然後有什麼幫助那這也會有一些可能租作權的問題所以我們現在除了花蓮的這個實驗基地沒有其他的了是嗎沒有 有一直在做但我想部長講得很好這也是我們必須要拿來討論的就是說"},{"start":464.44,"end":474.587,"text":"我們其實一定程度也是代表文化部有去支持這個AI協助創作支持的一個方向所以我們才會籌建這個實驗基地不過就像您剛剛所說的這也觸發了相關的作品或者風格的一些侵權或者是剽竊或者是影響的疑慮跟爭議這裡面我們都有在討論"},{"start":486.115,"end":497.457,"text":"所以你怎麼看這個AI對於藝術家來說它到底是一個創作者角色會變成一種威脅還是創作力催生的一種協同所以您也是一個作家您怎麼看這個部分"},{"start":498.68,"end":517.597,"text":"我覺得他是兩面的他有時候太快的輸進去可以有創作出來跟我們創作差不多這是一個危機這是一個危機 譬如說我們最近有個繪本比賽評完之後我就會找兩個負責AI的評審重新看一遍得獎作品看他們是不是AI深層"},{"start":518.457,"end":531.542,"text":"這是一個負面的可是我們也不能排斥AI能夠做了很多工作有可能是比過去更方便很好部長我覺得您這個方向都非常的正確那也考慮得非常的周全正因為你說這是一體兩面所以我們才要認真仔細好 我舉一個國安的例子"},{"start":535.723,"end":560.238,"text":"根据英国创作者权力联盟工会来调查他们有四分之一的插画家跟超过三分之一的翻译者因为AI失业了而超过86%的工会会员他也很担心他自身不管是风格或者是他的声音等等在AI训练的过程当中遭到模仿或剽窃会使他的创作价值受损我们看到在国内也像您刚刚所说的"},{"start":560.638,"end":588.56,"text":"我們也一直都有一些爭議包括AI這個生成作品的這個利用這個作品去參加比賽得到獎項那引發這個大家覺得不公平啦那也有這個插畫家的會師啊這個被AI侵權啦等等啦所以這就是您剛剛所說的好那我們就來討論所以你看我們如果在推動這個AI創作的同時有知道有這些問題但是我們沒有明確的這個規範跟指引其實這就會是一種衝擊所以好"},{"start":590.521,"end":605.974,"text":"都點頭嗎 沒有錯所以你看我們現在政院版的AI基本法還卡在行政院所以隨著我們現在不管是法律 法規落後於AI跳躍式的發展我們快跟不上了所以創作人的權益其實就會去一種不平衡"},{"start":606.835,"end":633.113,"text":"那文化部在去年12月中旬有說過我們現在在蒐集國際案例跟國內藝文產業的意見要來研擬文化藝術應用生成式的AI規範指引並且要預計在今年上半年來發布請問一下部長這個進度現在到哪裡了知道原來的進度在2025年的上半年會發布因為這個部分從去年開始所以是幾月幾月我問一下"},{"start":636.011,"end":647.407,"text":"6月對6月好所以我們確定6月份這一份文化藝術應用生成式AI規範指引就會出來嘛對不對好那我想大方向問一下我們這個指引要怎麼規範"},{"start":650.562,"end":668.75,"text":"我們會在各種比賽裡面非常嚴格的要求他不能夠是AI的生成但是反過來也不斷的告訴藝文工作者AI跟他之間的這種限制跟利用規範裡面會訂的很清楚"},{"start":669.15,"end":686.095,"text":"那部長我想我這邊能不能這樣要求啊因為六月我們正式的這個指引要出來嘛那我們是希望能不能夠在比如說四月五月的時候啊我們有一個大方向能不能先把這個大方向讓我們所有的委員會的委員先知道一下整個方向大概是往哪個地方走可以嗎可以嗎"},{"start":689.116,"end":717.315,"text":"就是我們六月嘛所以我們可不可以五月初好不好五月初的時候把這個大方先給大家那也許我們大家還可以有集思廣益有一些更寶貴的意見可以給各位其實我們在我們所有過去的辦法裡都加了這一條以前沒有加現在所有補助辦法跟比賽我們都加就像我剛剛講說我們還會加一個AI的評審看看作品有沒有AI的生成等等雖然我們的範例還沒有那個辦法還沒出來可是我們已經在我們的所有條例裡面修改"},{"start":717.955,"end":727.827,"text":"好 那部長反正我們就是剛才我們說的央廣的部分一個月內要給我一個報告然後這個部分的話五月初大方向給我們六月我們要公佈好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝萬美玲委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":150,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（9時28分）謝謝召委，有請李遠部長及賴董事長。"],["主席：請李部長跟央廣賴董事長。"],["李部長遠：萬委員，您好。"],["萬委員美玲：部長早。"],["李部長遠：早。"],["萬委員美玲：我想央廣最近這件事情鬧得沸沸揚揚，剛才我聽到您說沒有看這個查核報告。我們來回顧一下，央廣在110年4月的時候被媒體爆出製作不實的單據，向陸委會等等公部門詐領公費，文化部隔了2個月才去函要求公正查核，央廣也花了大概半年多的時間，到111年1月把查核報告送到文化部，不曉得為什麼要列為機密。現在把它解密之後，我們才發現6,697筆領據中，竟然有高達2,885筆是異常的，比例已經高達了43%，而且這是目前可以查到的部分。我們不知道沒有公布的還有多少？但是本席比較驚訝的是，部長竟然說您沒有看過這個查核報告，為什麼？"],["李部長遠：我最近還沒有機會看到，其實這個事情一開始我根本搞不清楚，因為發生在四年前，後來經過我了解之後……"],["萬委員美玲：好，部長，這當然不是在您的任內，但是我們要大刀闊斧的去改變過去的陋習，或者有一些不合理、不合法的地方。我覺得您身為現任的部長應該要去了解。既然您說沒有看過，連最近媒體在報也沒有注意嗎？不管是節目沒有辦法核對，每一集的集數是不相符的，甚至來賓是不對的，還有偽造簽名、日期跟播出時間不一等等，這些都非常誇張。我相信您身為電視人、從媒體來，一定會發現這樣的狀況是匪夷所思的。","根據這個查核報告，部長有沒有發現第一階段跟第三階段，這是由央廣指定特定的範圍供查核，結果我們發現第一階段無法勾稽的比例將近48%，如果要把未回覆加進去，超過一半竟然還是沒有辦法勾稽，第三階段一樣是特定的範圍，結果高達9成多無法勾稽，更不要講沒有特定的範圍也是六成多無法勾稽，所以我覺得這個很誇張。換句話說，我們有一半以上的領據是沒有辦法查核的，有這麼高比例的異常，我必須要講，這真的是一團爛帳，已經不是什麼便宜行事，還是什麼疏失。我覺得要說這裡面有人謀不臧，或者有其他的狀況都不為過，所以部長應該要去了解一下。","文化部在111年4月份送地檢署跟廉政署調查，所以這事件被披露，卻延宕一年之後才送，我覺得必須要了解為什麼延宕這麼久？可是查核報告還有一點，查核人員根本無法確認樣本量的存在性跟正確性，難怪地檢署、廉政署查了3年還查不出所以然。你們之前還把它列為機密，如果按照之前的文化部跟部長提的，要等到司法機關查出來才要解密，這樣永遠就沒有解密的時候，我覺得這很誇張。這個查核報告在110年1月就送到文化部，當時文化部有要求趕快改善，不過央廣到113年才要重新建置會計帳務系統，據本席了解，到現在還沒有辦法建置改善完畢。針對這一些，您可以接受央廣這樣的效率跟這件事情事後這樣的處理嗎？"],["李部長遠：非常不能接受，因為我工作50年以來，我接觸過非常多這種機構，裡面長期累積了一些問題，我聽了滿痛心的，我也希望未來所有查核機制及本身內容的一些……能夠趕快建置一個比較完整的會計系統及內控。"],["萬委員美玲：你希望趕快建立，所以一個月之內有辦法把它建立起來嗎？"],["李部長遠：我請那個……"],["萬委員美玲：沒有，部長，還是要了解一下，一個月內可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：其實他們2021年之後就在做這個事情，一個月內應該沒問題的。"],["萬委員美玲：當時發生後的一個月就應該要檢討了，還到三、四年後，我覺得太離譜了，好不好？部長，拜託！我希望這件事情要有魄力，雖然不是在你的任內，但是我們要看看央廣到底發生什麼事情。我想其實央廣有一些節目製作及各方面還是很好的，但是不能因為有一些做得很好就把疏忽這件事情，我覺得不可以這樣子。","另外，剛剛也有提出來，當時的吹哨者是一位在央廣任職25年的臺語導播，他也有提出來，因為他當時出來做吹哨者，所以遭到職場霸凌，關於這件事情，部長有沒有去了解？"],["李部長遠：我稍微了解，我覺得他講職場霸凌這件事情其實滿複雜，經過調查後不成立，不成立之後，他再申請調查，所以又重啟調查。他不是用一個高層吃案、升官這樣的字眼去形容這整件事，並沒那麼單純。"],["萬委員美玲：好，部長，既然這件事情沒有那麼單純，但是這個吹哨者其實也有再站出來為這件事情發出不平之聲，我希望部長應該要瞭解這個案子到底過去是怎麼發生的，你看我們能夠查到的就有百分之四十幾，將近一半的單據涉及詐領、不實的核銷，然後又有吹哨者被職場霸凌，甚至於當年可能有做錯事的人不斷在升官，我希望部長能用你現在是文化部部長這樣的高度，將這整個案子全部重啟調查，可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：沒問題，我想我會全部了解，而且……"],["萬委員美玲：那一個月內可以把這個報告交出來嗎？"],["李部長遠：可以。"],["萬委員美玲：好，謝謝。","接下來我想繼續跟部長請教，最近這幾年來，AI技術可以說是發展的非常迅速，而且應用在藝術創作的案例可以說是越來越多，不管是AI的音樂、畫作、劇本等等，文化部其實也跟臺灣人工智慧實驗室合作，在花蓮籌建了一個流行音樂中心AI實驗基地。我想請教一下部長，現在除了花蓮的流行音樂中心AI實驗基地之外，還有沒有其他地方也要來做的計畫？"],["李部長遠：有，其實我們最近不斷在內部討論AI對未來的創作可以有什麼影響、有什麼幫助，但是也可能會有一些著作權的問題……"],["萬委員美玲：所以我們現在除了花蓮的這個實驗基地，沒有其他的了，是嗎？"],["李部長遠：有一直在做……"],["萬委員美玲：好，部長講得很好，這也是我們必須要拿來討論的，其實這一定程度也是代表文化部有支持AI協助創作的方向，所以才會籌建這個實驗基地；不過就像您剛剛所說的，這也觸發了一些相關作品、風格的侵權或者是剽竊，以及影響的疑慮跟爭議，這幾年我們都有在討論，所以你怎麼看這個？AI對於藝術家來說，它到底是不是一個創作者的角色？會不會變成一種威脅？還是創作力催生的一種血統？您也是一個作家，您怎麼看這個部分？"],["李部長遠：我覺得它是兩面的，有時候輸進去可以很快有創作，出來的跟我們創作的差不多，這是一個危機，譬如我們最近有個繪本比賽，評完之後，我就找兩個負責AI的評審重新看一遍得獎作品，看它們是不是AI生成，雖然這是負面的，可是我們也不能排斥，AI能夠做很多工作，有可能比過去更方便。"],["萬委員美玲：很好，部長，我覺得您的方向都非常的正確，也考慮得非常的周全，正因為你說這是一體兩面，所以我們才要認真仔細。我舉一個國外的例子，根據英國創作者權利聯盟公會調查，他們有四分之一的插畫家和超過三分之一的翻譯者因為AI失業，超過百分之八十六的公會會員也很擔心，他自身不管是風格或者是聲音等等，在AI訓練的過程當中遭到模仿或剽竊，會使他的創作價值受損。我們看到在國內，也像您剛剛所說的，一直都有一些爭議，包括利用AI生成作品去參加比賽並得到獎項，引發大家覺得不公平，也有插畫家的繪師被AI侵權等等，這就是您剛剛所說的。那我們就來討論一下，如果在推動AI創作的同時就知道有這些問題，但是沒有明確的規範跟指引，其實這就會是一種衝擊，所以……好，都點頭嘛！沒有錯！現在政院版的AI基本法還卡在行政院，隨著現在不管是法律、法規落後於AI跳躍式的發展，我們快跟不上了，創作人的權益就會趨於一種不平衡。","文化部在去年12月中旬說過，你們現在在蒐集國際案例跟國內藝文產業的意見，要來研擬文化藝術應用生成式的AI規範指引，並且預計在今年上半年發布，請問一下部長，這個進度現在到哪裡了？"],["李部長遠：照原來的進度是在2025年上半年會發布，因為這個部分從去年開始……"],["萬委員美玲：所以是幾月？"],["李部長遠：6月。"],["萬委員美玲：6月？"],["李部長遠：對。"],["萬委員美玲：好，確定6月份這個文化藝術應用生成式AI規範指引就會出來，對不對？好，我想大方向問一下，這個指引要怎麼規範？"],["李部長遠：大方向就是回到剛才我講的，一方面我們會在各種比賽裡面非常嚴格的要求，它不能夠是AI的生成，但是反過來也不斷的告訴藝文工作者，AI跟他們之間的限制跟利用，規範裡面會訂得很清楚。"],["萬委員美玲：部長，我能不能這樣要求？因為6月正式的指引要出來，希望能不能夠在4月、5月的時候有一個大方向，能不能先把這個大方向讓所有委員會的委員們先知道一下，看整個方向大概是往哪個地方走，可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：可以……"],["萬委員美玲：是6月嘛，所以可不可以是5月初，好不好？"],["李部長遠：好。"],["萬委員美玲：5月初把這個大方向先給大家……"],["李部長遠：沒問題。"],["萬委員美玲：也許大家還可以集思廣益，有一些更寶貴的意見可以給各位。"],["李部長遠：其實我們在過去所有的辦法裡都加了這一條，以前沒有加，現在所有補助辦法跟比賽都加了。就像我剛才講的，我們還會加一個AI的評審，看看作品有沒有AI的生成等等，雖然我們的辦法還沒出來，可是我們已經在所有的條例裡面修改。"],["萬委員美玲：好，部長反正我們就是……剛才我說的央廣那部分，請一個月內要給我一個報告；這個部分的話，5月初給我們大方向，6月要公布，好不好？"],["李部長遠：好，沒問題，謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員，部長請回。","接下來請林沛祥委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-4","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","劉書彬","葛如鈞","林月琴","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳思瑤","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","葉元之","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00002"}}}