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{\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 96.563, \"end\": 96.703, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"共\", \"start\": 96.703, \"end\": 96.963, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 96.963, \"end\": 97.263, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 97.263, \"end\": 97.423, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 97.423, \"end\": 97.523, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 97.523, \"end\": 97.683, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 97.683, \"end\": 97.923, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"攻\", \"start\": 97.923, \"end\": 98.143, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 98.143, \"end\": 98.604, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 98.604, \"end\": 98.784, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 98.784, \"end\": 99.164, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"措\", \"start\": 99.164, \"end\": 99.324, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"施\", \"start\": 99.324, \"end\": 99.804, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 107.167, \"end\": 107.848, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 107.848, \"end\": 107.988, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 107.988, \"end\": 108.148, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 108.148, \"end\": 108.708, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 108.708, \"end\": 108.868, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 108.868, \"end\": 109.108, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 109.108, \"end\": 110.569, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 110.569, \"end\": 111.309, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 111.309, \"end\": 111.429, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 111.429, \"end\": 111.95, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 111.95, \"end\": 112.13, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"歲\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 112.13, \"end\": 112.27, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 112.27, \"end\": 113.47, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"層\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 113.47, \"end\": 114.751, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"送\", \"start\": 114.751, \"end\": 114.951, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 114.951, \"end\": 115.431, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 115.431, \"end\": 115.611, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"姆\", \"start\": 115.611, \"end\": 115.731, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 115.731, \"end\": 115.891, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"托\", \"start\": 115.891, \"end\": 116.111, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"嬰\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 116.111, \"end\": 116.271, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 116.271, \"end\": 116.472, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"帶\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 116.472, \"end\": 117.292, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 117.292, \"end\": 117.812, 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\"教育局通報我已經在右邊看到可是被刪除了那甚至呢如果老師被裁處的要不要被裁處都可以申訴那為什麼家長針對他孩子的這個不成案不能申訴我不知道甚至有些結果也不告訴家長像狼屍案竟然台北市社會局教育局竟然跟家長講說你自己去看新聞稿\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 779.522, \"end\": 779.682, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"育\", \"start\": 779.682, \"end\": 779.762, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"局\", \"start\": 779.762, \"end\": 779.942, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 779.942, \"end\": 780.222, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 780.222, \"end\": 780.323, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 780.323, \"end\": 780.423, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 780.423, \"end\": 780.543, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"右\", \"start\": 780.543, \"end\": 780.843, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 780.843, \"end\": 781.003, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 781.003, \"end\": 781.363, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 781.363, \"end\": 781.463, \"score\": 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1023.234, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 1023.234, \"end\": 1023.254, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,674 --> 00:00:18,243\n好首先麻煩我們的呂健德呂次長還有我們許綠堅許副署長\n\n2\n00:00:26,107 --> 00:00:43,095\n主席謝謝市長安副組長早我想今天因為我們討論要少說女話但我知道女不婚男男婚已經造就了這樣子的一個結構因為民國91年就開始出生率已經下降到20萬以下\n\n3\n00:00:45,000 --> 00:01:01,073\n所以這事實上是一個難題啦所以也到了2019年整個已經走到生不如死因為生的比較少死的反而比較多那在這樣的狀況底下的確政府呢也是提出了一些相關的政策希望能夠讓\n\n4\n00:01:03,137 --> 00:01:28,558\n年輕的夫婦或者是還沒結婚的是不是可以進入到婚姻當中然後能夠生養小孩提出了相對應的很多政策那我們自己在看就是學齡前的兒童父母因為工作狀況現在這麼高的比例幾乎雙性家庭佔了六成二那政府的我剛剛講前面的對應政策裡邊的確就是要去讓父母可以賺取\n\n5\n00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:59,493\n家裡的所開支的費用裡面那當然就是會提供我們的所謂的公共化或者是準攻的這樣的一個措施那也因為政府的這樣子的一個政策的確我們的保姆人數和我們的收托人數過去呢基本上事實上是8比2就是我們兩歲以下兩層呢送出來給保姆跟托嬰中心帶然後八成呢事實上是還是在家裡\n\n6\n00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:20,756\n那現在也因為政府的政策變成是七比三也就三成送出來了七成還在家裡那幼兒園呢過去是四比六四成呢事實上送出來六成是在家裡現在有的縣市達到七比三有的縣市還是四比六是六成送出來四成在家裡所以政府的政策的確導引了這樣子的一個狀況可是就要問吼這樣導引政策裡面有沒有隨著配搭你的所有的相關的\n\n7\n00:02:29,289 --> 00:02:56,758\n制度跟規定為什麼這麼提所以家外送托上升可是我們的兒少保護的配套到底在哪裡你的相關的包含包含地方政府的相關的對應的為什麼我這樣問因為我們雖然有113的這樣的一個通報可是我們剛剛也提到在100年的時候幼托整合把兩歲以下切到托嬰中心兩歲以上切到幼兒園那\n\n8\n00:02:58,829 --> 00:03:26,121\n又加上我剛剛提的政府的很多政策呢已經都是把孩子送托出來的時候到底整個搭配的狀態會是什麼因為家外的話事實上就會有過去兒女幾乎都是處理家內的比較多可是你的地方政府的甚至中央到底有沒有認知到越來越多送托的時候兒女的問題越來越多的時候你的保姆跟托嬰中心以社政來看就分屬三個單位\n\n9\n00:03:27,381 --> 00:03:51,964\n家防中心耳哨科跟托育科那我要問像這樣子過去就是因為教育部事實上他的調查因為在2023年的時候法規有調修全部歸他們否則過去幼兒園也有這種問題社會局調查社會局的教育局調查教育局的\n\n10\n00:03:52,475 --> 00:03:57,910\n所以如果沒有連結最後就落實掉我在台北市就看到幾個案子事實上是\n\n11\n00:03:59,502 --> 00:04:29,182\n老師不當對待孩子的老師離開了然後他持續到下一個單位去為什麼因為兩邊沒有連結那一樣的那現在我們也擔心啊如果保姆跟托育中心有分屬到三個好科室的話那是不是也是會沒有連結因為一個是家防中心一個是兒燒科一個是托育科採取兒燒科調查呢托育科可是家防中心處理是受害這一方如果資料沒有去比對的話我們也會看到甚至比較不像教育部後來有被認定會被要求是法律要求說\n\n12\n00:04:29,682 --> 00:04:57,118\n一定要召開我曾經問過地方政府什麼時候開這樣的會要集結到一定的程度一定的量才來開說到底要不要裁處這件事情甚至之前台北市的狼屍案對沒錯結果呢兒少科可以坐任我們的教育單位一直沒有交報告所以錯失良機111年因為沒有去處理那個單一個案隔年造成39個孩子受害所以我就想來問次長\n\n13\n00:04:58,683 --> 00:05:24,301\n你對於像家外而且我現在要有耳聞家外的不管是教育部或者是你們衛福部都準備要把它全部歸屬到單一那我也要問之前在處理通報的時候也是有這樣子的問題說通報台北市的狼屍案說通報老師不需要通報到我們的社政單位可是明明兒少權法53條就明確要求\n\n14\n00:05:25,001 --> 00:05:47,875\n結果怎麼會是用教育部的法規這事實上是分屬兩個所以想問先問次長這邊你對於這樣分屬三科甚至我剛剛講有聽聞說以後要單一來處理的話那是由誰來單一處理非常感謝岳勤委員對於這個問題關心那我先簡單回答兩個重點第一個就是說這裡面其實牽涉到事實上就是說我們原先的兒少全法\n\n15\n00:05:49,080 --> 00:06:08,723\n裡面跟托育專法還有幼照法之間三者之間的一個銜接問題那我先跟委員報告第一個重點現在就是說我們現在目前有關托育專法的部分我也了解也非常感謝委員的指導托育服務法我們現在目前已經把它獨立出來這裡面有關於像你剛剛說有關於相關這個家外的這一個整個這一個部分我們現在目前做一個處理\n\n16\n00:06:09,304 --> 00:06:22,055\n另外第二個有關於就是現在沒有介紹整個財閥樣態還有基準之間三者之間的這一個這一個原先是淨核那我們現在希望能夠把它變成整核另外一個現在剛剛您剛剛說有關幾個科之間我是不是先請來我們先請那個來市長\n\n17\n00:06:25,678 --> 00:06:46,891\n家外的案件我們建議就是之前我們做的是用一案管制一案管制也就是這個案件進來不管你在分屬在哪個單位但他就是在有一個單一窗口來做管制所謂上一案管制是什麼像台北市好了他事實上是各個社福中心去做調查好去了解\n\n18\n00:06:47,871 --> 00:07:03,106\n對於受害這一方像這個我有一個擔憂就是說我如果常常長年以來我都沒有碰到我比較常碰到家內這是我們的現況就我碰到家內的都比較嚴重當家外發生的時候很輕微都常常不會被認定因為社福中心他要不要啟動要\n\n19\n00:07:05,328 --> 00:07:09,711\n兒少科去做裁處這個決定權在有時候單一的社工身上你們有辦法解決這個問題嗎目前原理朝姓邵類似這樣用審議會的方式來做處理可是沒有明定一些相關法規很常看到的是各地方審法裡頭那就麻煩要寫在法規裡面否則的話我們現在看到是一個社工他常年\n\n20\n00:07:26,824 --> 00:07:44,560\n幾乎都處理家內的沒有在處理家外他的經驗會可能會覺得這不夠嚴重所以不會去做認定那當然也不會去核報到兒少科說要不要裁處我希望這個可以改善那一樣問副署長說幼兒園未來事實上是全部教育局一頭包到底嗎跟委員報告就幼兒園的部分從112年3月1號開始實施包含我們的幼照法跟教保條例以及\n\n21\n00:07:55,269 --> 00:08:08,276\n這兩法所訂定的調查辦法那說幼兒園所發生的這些相關事項都會由教育局的認定委員會來做處理所以從那個時間點開始全部都有教育局但是如果他發生一些通報的案件\n\n22\n00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:35,272\n除了要通報教育局之外以目前兒少全法該有的他們還是會雙向來做通報以上好也謝謝我們的教育部我也請保護司要切記你是53條的主管機關是你們這邊所以請你們不要認為說那就不需要按照53條通報是要的教育部有要教育部通報的那社政還有社政要通報的所以台北市從去年從凱凱案到我們的狼屍案\n\n23\n00:08:37,694 --> 00:09:06,978\n然後到那個平安新村裡面一個是39個孩子受害一個是26個孩子受害所以我覺得不應該再做任這種事情否則你叫父母怎麼敢生敢養為什麼因為政府的如果地方政府如果都沒有做好像昨天我們又再開一個桃園的案子所以如果陸續這樣子你叫父母要在家裡帶小孩嗎我們有講說能夠照顧不離子那可是這樣的狀態裡面怎麼可能讓家長安心呢\n\n24\n00:09:08,059 --> 00:09:27,195\n所以在品質上我覺得可能要去考量到因為現在縣市政府保姆的管理參差不齊認定不一為什麼從之前訓練我覺得政府部門和在職訓練聘用的老師我就讓我有點擔憂了為什麼這麼講因為有時候在查不當對待在參與這個會議的時候那有\n\n25\n00:09:30,017 --> 00:09:57,415\n孩子事實上是被壓著牆壓吃飯可是這時候有個委員講說這個還好一般父母都會是這樣做可是老師你不是一般父母那律師你發言的時候可是他是你們私家屬私家系課程的老師如果他都不懂得兒童權利公約的話那怎麼去擔任這樣的課程所以我覺得從課程就可能存在一些問題所在如果老師都不對兒童權利公約這麼肯認的時候\n\n26\n00:10:00,317 --> 00:10:27,297\n老师那他讲的斯亚斯究竟是什么所以我觉得你们对于地方政府办的职前跟在职训练有没有通盘的去确认这些老师到底能不能去担负这样的一个角色传达到出去的讯息如果是错误的话可能造成保护也误解了对孩子可能产生有些伤害这个也是在凯凯安之后我要求说是不是针对于训练要能够\n\n27\n00:10:28,243 --> 00:10:37,006\n對於老師的品質這邊要把握還有各地方不一定有的呢看到有問題譬如說7日內那個收託要回報可是沒回報呢有人事實上是輔導限改怎麼限改不需要限改因為沒回報就沒回報怎麼不是開單呢可是沒有\n\n28\n00:10:47,370 --> 00:11:01,569\n地方做法不一致的時候我覺得這也是衛福部有沒有要求各地方政府我到這個縣市我得到的是這樣子的那不會是22個縣市22套做法吧那22套做法以外\n\n29\n00:11:02,133 --> 00:11:29,405\n像台北市又有12個行政區12個行政區12個承辦人員又有12套不同的做法的話怎麼去應對那保護的管理機制怎麼會甚至托嬰中心也是有同樣的問題我不知道市長對於中央到底要怎麼去強化這些拘托的管理尤其是要讓地方其一不是明明法規就明定事實上是標準是一致的為什麼有些人先輔導再現改那有些人直接開單\n\n30\n00:11:30,818 --> 00:11:45,750\n這個差異我不知道市長要怎麼去處理非常感謝委員我想第一個真的是孩子的發展不能等而且每一個孩子在少子化的時代每一個都是我們的心肝寶貝所以我們這個完全就是有關相關的兒女還有那個家內家外這個都不管我們都一定會\n\n31\n00:11:46,471 --> 00:12:05,547\n因為做到零容忍這是第一點另外第二點剛剛委員剛剛所說的其實我覺得這裡面我們雖然說法律已經有這一個明定可是我想比較重要的重點應該是現在接下來您剛剛所說的就是說根據CRC的精神我們必須我會回去也會請同仁對於各縣市政府這邊的一個整個未來教育同仁的承辦同仁的教育訓練這邊會來強化\n\n32\n00:12:07,228 --> 00:12:26,821\n次長我也上第一會期的時候我就提出來如果你們不解決所謂大廈完委會的事情的那個要求的話基本上訪視員要到保姆家訪視就困難重重因為我要抓他抄收我要抓他違規問題管理員就是不讓我上去你們不解決這個問題的話我們越來越多\n\n33\n00:12:29,557 --> 00:12:59,001\n在大廈裡邊擔任保姆的工作那基本上也就是沒有辦法解決甚至托嬰中心也有這樣的樣態所以你們要不要去處理我覺得第一會期的時候我就已經提醒過了可是至今到現在還沒有有辦法處理那再來就問副署長從去年到現在家長告訴我們拿不到報告今天他小孩被捕當對待監視器看了呢我現場看了結果轉過身要來去跟\n\n34\n00:12:59,522 --> 00:13:23,136\n教育局通報我已經在右邊看到可是被刪除了那甚至呢如果老師被裁處的要不要被裁處都可以申訴那為什麼家長針對他孩子的這個不成案不能申訴我不知道甚至有些結果也不告訴家長像狼屍案竟然台北市社會局教育局竟然跟家長講說你自己去看新聞稿\n\n35\n00:13:24,434 --> 00:13:53,034\n那是去年3月12號的事情我孩子有沒有成案我要去看新聞稿好跟委員報告有關報告的部分在這一次修正的調查辦法那他是在1月22號已經發布了裡頭對調查報告的提供也有很明確的這個規定那再來就是說如果家長他本身就是就是通報的這些個案家長來看的話我剛提到了\n\n36\n00:13:53,373 --> 00:14:12,225\n在報告裡面是有一些在辦法裡面對報告的提供是有一些明確的記載以上然後接下來會按照你們的這些因為我現在提的這個有相關的措施對應嗎可是實務現況就是碰到到今天我站這邊我們幾天前還是一樣調查報告就是不給啊\n\n37\n00:14:13,870 --> 00:14:37,025\n跟委員報告因為這一次辦法的修正也是委員先前有提示現場的一些情形那我們也跟各縣市跟民間團體有做過比較深入的對話那那些文字應該如何去做處理才能家長拿得到包確實目前也是落法那如果說在縣市的部分執行面還有一些要再做一些協處來讓他們更理解的話這邊我們可以再加強盧尼醫生\n\n38\n00:14:41,527 --> 00:15:06,277\n我想問次長那個兒童我覺得你們有一個很好想法就是把因為過去管保母只有在兒少權法兩條而已托嬰中心只有一條授權執法在做管理事實上那個強度不夠那接下來你們也把兒童的安置在保母就是托在保母家或者是托嬰中心的整病在兒童托育服務法何時會送出來\n\n39\n00:15:07,097 --> 00:15:21,902\n報告委員我們現在目前已經送到行政院行政院那邊陳時中政委他現在目前正在積極在嚴嚴還有跟法會那邊我知道委員也非常急其實我更急啦我現在已經請同仁我們現在會趕快排入希望能夠趕快送到大院來進行審查\n\n40\n00:15:27,063 --> 00:15:53,562\n對所以是不是儘快不過另外一個我們也是是不是比照因為日本少子化他們的在前年的4月12號成立了兒童家庭廳來對應不管事實上是少子化的對應政策方方今天甚至保健跟房子額內的業務都整併一起來我不知道上次這個我也質詢過我不知道想問一下次長你們目前業務分工跟\n\n41\n00:15:54,122 --> 00:16:17,191\n整合狀況跟人員配置和施政方針跟評估指標會是什麼就目前進度是包圍我們其實這個這個案子那個我想也是總統政見他現在要成立兒童專責的這一個機構那現在我們本部已經積極在在研擬幾個方案那部長也有指示我們這邊會趕快來進行那這裡面我們當然就是說有一些有關部內相關的一些\n\n42\n00:16:18,311 --> 00:16:34,217\n的一些這個機關等等這些還有最重要是要回應社會對於整個所現在目前少子女化特別是有關兒童照顧這邊的議題那我們就趕快來繼續因為我們看到日本也因為這樣成立之後有些都郡事實上出生率有些微的\n\n43\n00:16:34,737 --> 00:16:54,430\n往上這個要去考慮所以那我覺得更重要的可能是不是要以兒童為中心的來執行計畫也就是兒童的友善社會因為像日本他們有所謂的兒童基本法而且有兒童政策的綱領基礎來作為一個依據所以未來事實上希望\n\n44\n00:16:54,850 --> 00:17:03,254\n我們的衛福部也好教育部也好甚至今天來的勞動部的所有政策要考慮到孩子的時候要以兒童為中心以上謝謝非常感謝委員我們會全力來推動謝謝好謝謝林委員謝謝次長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9674\t18243\t好 首先麻煩我們的呂健德呂次長還有我們許綠堅許副署長\n26107\t43095\t主席謝謝 市長安 副組長早我想今天因為我們討論要少說女話但我知道女不婚男男婚已經造就了這樣子的一個結構因為民國91年就開始出生率已經下降到20萬以下\n45000\t61073\t所以這事實上是一個難題啦所以也到了2019年整個已經走到生不如死因為生的比較少死的反而比較多那在這樣的狀況底下的確政府呢也是提出了一些相關的政策希望能夠讓\n63137\t88558\t年輕的夫婦或者是還沒結婚的是不是可以進入到婚姻當中然後能夠生養小孩提出了相對應的很多政策那我們自己在看就是學齡前的兒童父母因為工作狀況現在這麼高的比例幾乎雙性家庭佔了六成二那政府的我剛剛講前面的對應政策裡邊的確就是要去讓父母可以賺取\n90680\t119493\t家裡的所開支的費用裡面那當然就是會提供我們的所謂的公共化或者是準攻的這樣的一個措施那也因為政府的這樣子的一個政策的確我們的保姆人數和我們的收托人數過去呢基本上事實上是8比2就是我們兩歲以下兩層呢送出來給保姆跟托嬰中心帶然後八成呢事實上是還是在家裡\n120040\t140756\t那現在也因為政府的政策變成是七比三也就三成送出來了七成還在家裡那幼兒園呢過去是四比六四成呢事實上送出來六成是在家裡現在有的縣市達到七比三有的縣市還是四比六是六成送出來四成在家裡所以政府的政策的確導引了這樣子的一個狀況可是就要問吼這樣導引政策裡面有沒有隨著配搭你的所有的相關的\n149289\t176758\t制度跟規定為什麼這麼提所以家外送托上升可是我們的兒少保護的配套到底在哪裡你的相關的包含包含地方政府的相關的對應的為什麼我這樣問因為我們雖然有113的這樣的一個通報可是我們剛剛也提到在100年的時候幼托整合把兩歲以下切到托嬰中心兩歲以上切到幼兒園那\n178829\t206121\t又加上我剛剛提的政府的很多政策呢已經都是把孩子送托出來的時候到底整個搭配的狀態會是什麼因為家外的話事實上就會有過去兒女幾乎都是處理家內的比較多可是你的地方政府的甚至中央到底有沒有認知到越來越多送托的時候兒女的問題越來越多的時候你的保姆跟托嬰中心以社政來看就分屬三個單位\n207381\t231964\t家防中心 耳哨科跟托育科那我要問像這樣子過去就是因為教育部事實上他的調查因為在2023年的時候法規有調修全部歸他們 否則過去幼兒園也有這種問題社會局調查社會局的 教育局調查教育局的\n232475\t237910\t所以如果沒有連結 最後就落實掉我在台北市就看到幾個案子 事實上是\n239502\t269182\t老師不當對待孩子的老師離開了然後他持續到下一個單位去為什麼因為兩邊沒有連結那一樣的那現在我們也擔心啊如果保姆跟托育中心有分屬到三個好科室的話那是不是也是會沒有連結因為一個是家防中心一個是兒燒科一個是托育科採取兒燒科調查呢托育科可是家防中心處理是受害這一方如果資料沒有去比對的話我們也會看到甚至比較不像教育部後來有被認定會被要求是法律要求說\n269682\t297118\t一定要召開我曾經問過地方政府什麼時候開這樣的會要集結到一定的程度一定的量才來開說到底要不要裁處這件事情甚至之前台北市的狼屍案對沒錯結果呢兒少科可以坐任我們的教育單位一直沒有交報告所以錯失良機111年因為沒有去處理那個單一個案隔年造成39個孩子受害所以我就想來問次長\n298683\t324301\t你對於像家外而且我現在要有耳聞家外的不管是教育部或者是你們衛福部都準備要把它全部歸屬到單一那我也要問之前在處理通報的時候也是有這樣子的問題說通報台北市的狼屍案說通報老師不需要通報到我們的社政單位可是明明兒少權法53條就明確要求\n325001\t347875\t結果怎麼會是用教育部的法規這事實上是分屬兩個所以想問先問次長這邊你對於這樣分屬三科甚至我剛剛講有聽聞說以後要單一來處理的話那是由誰來單一處理非常感謝岳勤委員對於這個問題關心那我先簡單回答兩個重點第一個就是說這裡面其實牽涉到事實上就是說我們原先的兒少全法\n349080\t368723\t裡面跟托育專法還有幼照法之間三者之間的一個銜接問題那我先跟委員報告第一個重點現在就是說我們現在目前有關托育專法的部分我也了解也非常感謝委員的指導托育服務法我們現在目前已經把它獨立出來這裡面有關於像你剛剛說有關於相關這個家外的這一個整個這一個部分我們現在目前做一個處理\n369304\t382055\t另外第二個有關於就是現在沒有介紹整個財閥樣態還有基準之間三者之間的這一個這一個原先是淨核那我們現在希望能夠把它變成整核另外一個現在剛剛您剛剛說有關幾個科之間我是不是先請來我們先請那個來市長\n385678\t406891\t家外的案件我們建議就是之前我們做的是用一案管制一案管制也就是這個案件進來不管你在分屬在哪個單位但他就是在有一個單一窗口來做管制所謂上一案管制是什麼像台北市好了他事實上是各個社福中心去做調查好去了解\n407871\t423106\t對於受害這一方像這個我有一個擔憂就是說我如果常常長年以來我都沒有碰到我比較常碰到家內這是我們的現況就我碰到家內的都比較嚴重當家外發生的時候很輕微都常常不會被認定因為社福中心他要不要啟動要\n425328\t429711\t兒少科去做裁處這個決定權在有時候單一的社工身上你們有辦法解決這個問題嗎目前原理朝姓邵類似這樣用審議會的方式來做處理可是沒有明定一些相關法規很常看到的是各地方審法裡頭那就麻煩要寫在法規裡面否則的話我們現在看到是一個社工他常年\n446824\t464560\t幾乎都處理家內的沒有在處理家外他的經驗會可能會覺得這不夠嚴重所以不會去做認定那當然也不會去核報到兒少科說要不要裁處我希望這個可以改善那一樣問副署長說幼兒園未來事實上是全部教育局一頭包到底嗎跟委員報告就幼兒園的部分從112年3月1號開始實施包含我們的幼照法跟教保條例以及\n475269\t488276\t這兩法所訂定的調查辦法那說幼兒園所發生的這些相關事項都會由教育局的認定委員會來做處理所以從那個時間點開始全部都有教育局但是如果他發生一些通報的案件\n488840\t515272\t除了要通報教育局之外以目前兒少全法該有的他們還是會雙向來做通報以上好也謝謝我們的教育部我也請保護司要切記你是53條的主管機關是你們這邊所以請你們不要認為說那就不需要按照53條通報是要的教育部有要教育部通報的那社政還有社政要通報的所以台北市從去年從凱凱案到我們的狼屍案\n517694\t546978\t然後到那個平安新村裡面一個是39個孩子受害一個是26個孩子受害所以我覺得不應該再做任這種事情否則你叫父母怎麼敢生敢養為什麼因為政府的如果地方政府如果都沒有做好像昨天我們又再開一個桃園的案子所以如果陸續這樣子你叫父母要在家裡帶小孩嗎我們有講說能夠照顧不離子那可是這樣的狀態裡面怎麼可能讓家長安心呢\n548059\t567195\t所以在品質上我覺得可能要去考量到因為現在縣市政府保姆的管理參差不齊認定不一為什麼從之前訓練我覺得政府部門和在職訓練聘用的老師我就讓我有點擔憂了為什麼這麼講因為有時候在查不當對待在參與這個會議的時候那有\n570017\t597415\t孩子事實上是被壓著牆壓吃飯可是這時候有個委員講說這個還好一般父母都會是這樣做可是老師你不是一般父母那律師你發言的時候可是他是你們私家屬私家系課程的老師如果他都不懂得兒童權利公約的話那怎麼去擔任這樣的課程所以我覺得從課程就可能存在一些問題所在如果老師都不對兒童權利公約這麼肯認的時候\n600317\t627297\t老师那他讲的斯亚斯究竟是什么所以我觉得你们对于地方政府办的职前跟在职训练有没有通盘的去确认这些老师到底能不能去担负这样的一个角色传达到出去的讯息如果是错误的话可能造成保护也误解了对孩子可能产生有些伤害这个也是在凯凯安之后我要求说是不是针对于训练要能够\n628243\t637006\t對於老師的品質這邊要把握還有各地方不一定有的呢看到有問題譬如說7日內那個收託要回報可是沒回報呢有人事實上是輔導限改怎麼限改不需要限改因為沒回報就沒回報怎麼不是開單呢可是沒有\n647370\t661569\t地方做法不一致的時候我覺得這也是衛福部有沒有要求各地方政府我到這個縣市我得到的是這樣子的那不會是22個縣市22套做法吧那22套做法以外\n662133\t689405\t像台北市又有12個行政區12個行政區12個承辦人員又有12套不同的做法的話怎麼去應對那保護的管理機制怎麼會甚至托嬰中心也是有同樣的問題我不知道市長對於中央到底要怎麼去強化這些拘托的管理尤其是要讓地方其一不是明明法規就明定事實上是標準是一致的為什麼有些人先輔導再現改那有些人直接開單\n690818\t705750\t這個差異我不知道市長要怎麼去處理非常感謝委員我想第一個真的是孩子的發展不能等而且每一個孩子在少子化的時代每一個都是我們的心肝寶貝所以我們這個完全就是有關相關的兒女還有那個家內家外這個都不管我們都一定會\n706471\t725547\t因為做到零容忍這是第一點另外第二點剛剛委員剛剛所說的其實我覺得這裡面我們雖然說法律已經有這一個明定可是我想比較重要的重點應該是現在接下來您剛剛所說的就是說根據CRC的精神我們必須我會回去也會請同仁對於各縣市政府這邊的一個整個未來教育同仁的承辦同仁的教育訓練這邊會來強化\n727228\t746821\t次長我也上第一會期的時候我就提出來如果你們不解決所謂大廈完委會的事情的那個要求的話基本上訪視員要到保姆家訪視就困難重重因為我要抓他抄收我要抓他違規問題管理員就是不讓我上去你們不解決這個問題的話我們越來越多\n749557\t779001\t在大廈裡邊 擔任保姆的工作那基本上也就是沒有辦法解決 甚至托嬰中心也有這樣的樣態所以你們要不要去處理 我覺得第一會期的時候我就已經提醒過了 可是至今到現在還沒有有辦法處理那再來就問副署長從去年到現在家長告訴我們拿不到報告 今天他小孩被捕當對待監視器看了呢我現場看了 結果轉過身要來去跟\n779522\t803136\t教育局通報我已經在右邊看到可是被刪除了那甚至呢如果老師被裁處的要不要被裁處都可以申訴那為什麼家長針對他孩子的這個不成案不能申訴我不知道甚至有些結果也不告訴家長像狼屍案竟然台北市社會局教育局竟然跟家長講說你自己去看新聞稿\n804434\t833034\t那是去年3月12號的事情我孩子有沒有成案我要去看新聞稿好跟委員報告有關報告的部分在這一次修正的調查辦法那他是在1月22號已經發布了裡頭對調查報告的提供也有很明確的這個規定那再來就是說如果家長他本身就是就是通報的這些個案家長來看的話我剛提到了\n833373\t852225\t在報告裡面是有一些在辦法裡面對報告的提供是有一些明確的記載以上然後接下來會按照你們的這些因為我現在提的這個有相關的措施對應嗎可是實務現況就是碰到到今天我站這邊我們幾天前還是一樣調查報告就是不給啊\n853870\t877025\t跟委員報告因為這一次辦法的修正也是委員先前有提示現場的一些情形那我們也跟各縣市跟民間團體有做過比較深入的對話那那些文字應該如何去做處理才能家長拿得到包確實目前也是落法那如果說在縣市的部分執行面還有一些要再做一些協處來讓他們更理解的話這邊我們可以再加強盧尼醫生\n881527\t906277\t我想問次長那個兒童我覺得你們有一個很好想法就是把因為過去管保母只有在兒少權法兩條而已托嬰中心只有一條授權執法在做管理事實上那個強度不夠那接下來你們也把兒童的安置在保母就是托在保母家或者是托嬰中心的整病在兒童托育服務法何時會送出來\n907097\t921902\t報告委員我們現在目前已經送到行政院行政院那邊陳時中政委他現在目前正在積極在嚴嚴還有跟法會那邊我知道委員也非常急其實我更急啦我現在已經請同仁我們現在會趕快排入希望能夠趕快送到大院來進行審查\n927063\t953562\t對 所以是不是儘快不過另外一個我們也是是不是比照因為日本少子化他們的在前年的4月12號成立了兒童家庭廳來對應不管事實上是少子化的對應政策方方今天甚至保健跟房子額內的業務都整併一起來我不知道上次這個我也質詢過我不知道想問一下次長你們目前業務分工跟\n954122\t977191\t整合狀況跟人員配置和施政方針跟評估指標會是什麼就目前進度是包圍我們其實這個這個案子那個我想也是總統政見他現在要成立兒童專責的這一個機構那現在我們本部已經積極在在研擬幾個方案那部長也有指示我們這邊會趕快來進行那這裡面我們當然就是說有一些有關部內相關的一些\n978311\t994217\t的一些這個機關等等這些還有最重要是要回應社會對於整個所現在目前少子女化特別是有關兒童照顧這邊的議題那我們就趕快來繼續因為我們看到日本也因為這樣成立之後有些都郡事實上出生率有些微的\n994737\t1014430\t往上這個要去考慮所以那我覺得更重要的可能是不是要以兒童為中心的來執行計畫也就是兒童的友善社會因為像日本他們有所謂的兒童基本法而且有兒童政策的綱領基礎來作為一個依據所以未來事實上希望\n1014850\t1023254\t我們的衛福部也好教育部也好甚至今天來的勞動部的所有政策要考慮到孩子的時候要以兒童為中心以上謝謝非常感謝委員我們會全力來推動謝謝好謝謝林委員謝謝次長\n","txt":"好 首先麻煩我們的呂健德呂次長還有我們許綠堅許副署長\n主席謝謝 市長安 副組長早我想今天因為我們討論要少說女話但我知道女不婚男男婚已經造就了這樣子的一個結構因為民國91年就開始出生率已經下降到20萬以下\n所以這事實上是一個難題啦所以也到了2019年整個已經走到生不如死因為生的比較少死的反而比較多那在這樣的狀況底下的確政府呢也是提出了一些相關的政策希望能夠讓\n年輕的夫婦或者是還沒結婚的是不是可以進入到婚姻當中然後能夠生養小孩提出了相對應的很多政策那我們自己在看就是學齡前的兒童父母因為工作狀況現在這麼高的比例幾乎雙性家庭佔了六成二那政府的我剛剛講前面的對應政策裡邊的確就是要去讓父母可以賺取\n家裡的所開支的費用裡面那當然就是會提供我們的所謂的公共化或者是準攻的這樣的一個措施那也因為政府的這樣子的一個政策的確我們的保姆人數和我們的收托人數過去呢基本上事實上是8比2就是我們兩歲以下兩層呢送出來給保姆跟托嬰中心帶然後八成呢事實上是還是在家裡\n那現在也因為政府的政策變成是七比三也就三成送出來了七成還在家裡那幼兒園呢過去是四比六四成呢事實上送出來六成是在家裡現在有的縣市達到七比三有的縣市還是四比六是六成送出來四成在家裡所以政府的政策的確導引了這樣子的一個狀況可是就要問吼這樣導引政策裡面有沒有隨著配搭你的所有的相關的\n制度跟規定為什麼這麼提所以家外送托上升可是我們的兒少保護的配套到底在哪裡你的相關的包含包含地方政府的相關的對應的為什麼我這樣問因為我們雖然有113的這樣的一個通報可是我們剛剛也提到在100年的時候幼托整合把兩歲以下切到托嬰中心兩歲以上切到幼兒園那\n又加上我剛剛提的政府的很多政策呢已經都是把孩子送托出來的時候到底整個搭配的狀態會是什麼因為家外的話事實上就會有過去兒女幾乎都是處理家內的比較多可是你的地方政府的甚至中央到底有沒有認知到越來越多送托的時候兒女的問題越來越多的時候你的保姆跟托嬰中心以社政來看就分屬三個單位\n家防中心 耳哨科跟托育科那我要問像這樣子過去就是因為教育部事實上他的調查因為在2023年的時候法規有調修全部歸他們 否則過去幼兒園也有這種問題社會局調查社會局的 教育局調查教育局的\n所以如果沒有連結 最後就落實掉我在台北市就看到幾個案子 事實上是\n老師不當對待孩子的老師離開了然後他持續到下一個單位去為什麼因為兩邊沒有連結那一樣的那現在我們也擔心啊如果保姆跟托育中心有分屬到三個好科室的話那是不是也是會沒有連結因為一個是家防中心一個是兒燒科一個是托育科採取兒燒科調查呢托育科可是家防中心處理是受害這一方如果資料沒有去比對的話我們也會看到甚至比較不像教育部後來有被認定會被要求是法律要求說\n一定要召開我曾經問過地方政府什麼時候開這樣的會要集結到一定的程度一定的量才來開說到底要不要裁處這件事情甚至之前台北市的狼屍案對沒錯結果呢兒少科可以坐任我們的教育單位一直沒有交報告所以錯失良機111年因為沒有去處理那個單一個案隔年造成39個孩子受害所以我就想來問次長\n你對於像家外而且我現在要有耳聞家外的不管是教育部或者是你們衛福部都準備要把它全部歸屬到單一那我也要問之前在處理通報的時候也是有這樣子的問題說通報台北市的狼屍案說通報老師不需要通報到我們的社政單位可是明明兒少權法53條就明確要求\n結果怎麼會是用教育部的法規這事實上是分屬兩個所以想問先問次長這邊你對於這樣分屬三科甚至我剛剛講有聽聞說以後要單一來處理的話那是由誰來單一處理非常感謝岳勤委員對於這個問題關心那我先簡單回答兩個重點第一個就是說這裡面其實牽涉到事實上就是說我們原先的兒少全法\n裡面跟托育專法還有幼照法之間三者之間的一個銜接問題那我先跟委員報告第一個重點現在就是說我們現在目前有關托育專法的部分我也了解也非常感謝委員的指導托育服務法我們現在目前已經把它獨立出來這裡面有關於像你剛剛說有關於相關這個家外的這一個整個這一個部分我們現在目前做一個處理\n另外第二個有關於就是現在沒有介紹整個財閥樣態還有基準之間三者之間的這一個這一個原先是淨核那我們現在希望能夠把它變成整核另外一個現在剛剛您剛剛說有關幾個科之間我是不是先請來我們先請那個來市長\n家外的案件我們建議就是之前我們做的是用一案管制一案管制也就是這個案件進來不管你在分屬在哪個單位但他就是在有一個單一窗口來做管制所謂上一案管制是什麼像台北市好了他事實上是各個社福中心去做調查好去了解\n對於受害這一方像這個我有一個擔憂就是說我如果常常長年以來我都沒有碰到我比較常碰到家內這是我們的現況就我碰到家內的都比較嚴重當家外發生的時候很輕微都常常不會被認定因為社福中心他要不要啟動要\n兒少科去做裁處這個決定權在有時候單一的社工身上你們有辦法解決這個問題嗎目前原理朝姓邵類似這樣用審議會的方式來做處理可是沒有明定一些相關法規很常看到的是各地方審法裡頭那就麻煩要寫在法規裡面否則的話我們現在看到是一個社工他常年\n幾乎都處理家內的沒有在處理家外他的經驗會可能會覺得這不夠嚴重所以不會去做認定那當然也不會去核報到兒少科說要不要裁處我希望這個可以改善那一樣問副署長說幼兒園未來事實上是全部教育局一頭包到底嗎跟委員報告就幼兒園的部分從112年3月1號開始實施包含我們的幼照法跟教保條例以及\n這兩法所訂定的調查辦法那說幼兒園所發生的這些相關事項都會由教育局的認定委員會來做處理所以從那個時間點開始全部都有教育局但是如果他發生一些通報的案件\n除了要通報教育局之外以目前兒少全法該有的他們還是會雙向來做通報以上好也謝謝我們的教育部我也請保護司要切記你是53條的主管機關是你們這邊所以請你們不要認為說那就不需要按照53條通報是要的教育部有要教育部通報的那社政還有社政要通報的所以台北市從去年從凱凱案到我們的狼屍案\n然後到那個平安新村裡面一個是39個孩子受害一個是26個孩子受害所以我覺得不應該再做任這種事情否則你叫父母怎麼敢生敢養為什麼因為政府的如果地方政府如果都沒有做好像昨天我們又再開一個桃園的案子所以如果陸續這樣子你叫父母要在家裡帶小孩嗎我們有講說能夠照顧不離子那可是這樣的狀態裡面怎麼可能讓家長安心呢\n所以在品質上我覺得可能要去考量到因為現在縣市政府保姆的管理參差不齊認定不一為什麼從之前訓練我覺得政府部門和在職訓練聘用的老師我就讓我有點擔憂了為什麼這麼講因為有時候在查不當對待在參與這個會議的時候那有\n孩子事實上是被壓著牆壓吃飯可是這時候有個委員講說這個還好一般父母都會是這樣做可是老師你不是一般父母那律師你發言的時候可是他是你們私家屬私家系課程的老師如果他都不懂得兒童權利公約的話那怎麼去擔任這樣的課程所以我覺得從課程就可能存在一些問題所在如果老師都不對兒童權利公約這麼肯認的時候\n老师那他讲的斯亚斯究竟是什么所以我觉得你们对于地方政府办的职前跟在职训练有没有通盘的去确认这些老师到底能不能去担负这样的一个角色传达到出去的讯息如果是错误的话可能造成保护也误解了对孩子可能产生有些伤害这个也是在凯凯安之后我要求说是不是针对于训练要能够\n對於老師的品質這邊要把握還有各地方不一定有的呢看到有問題譬如說7日內那個收託要回報可是沒回報呢有人事實上是輔導限改怎麼限改不需要限改因為沒回報就沒回報怎麼不是開單呢可是沒有\n地方做法不一致的時候我覺得這也是衛福部有沒有要求各地方政府我到這個縣市我得到的是這樣子的那不會是22個縣市22套做法吧那22套做法以外\n像台北市又有12個行政區12個行政區12個承辦人員又有12套不同的做法的話怎麼去應對那保護的管理機制怎麼會甚至托嬰中心也是有同樣的問題我不知道市長對於中央到底要怎麼去強化這些拘托的管理尤其是要讓地方其一不是明明法規就明定事實上是標準是一致的為什麼有些人先輔導再現改那有些人直接開單\n這個差異我不知道市長要怎麼去處理非常感謝委員我想第一個真的是孩子的發展不能等而且每一個孩子在少子化的時代每一個都是我們的心肝寶貝所以我們這個完全就是有關相關的兒女還有那個家內家外這個都不管我們都一定會\n因為做到零容忍這是第一點另外第二點剛剛委員剛剛所說的其實我覺得這裡面我們雖然說法律已經有這一個明定可是我想比較重要的重點應該是現在接下來您剛剛所說的就是說根據CRC的精神我們必須我會回去也會請同仁對於各縣市政府這邊的一個整個未來教育同仁的承辦同仁的教育訓練這邊會來強化\n次長我也上第一會期的時候我就提出來如果你們不解決所謂大廈完委會的事情的那個要求的話基本上訪視員要到保姆家訪視就困難重重因為我要抓他抄收我要抓他違規問題管理員就是不讓我上去你們不解決這個問題的話我們越來越多\n在大廈裡邊 擔任保姆的工作那基本上也就是沒有辦法解決 甚至托嬰中心也有這樣的樣態所以你們要不要去處理 我覺得第一會期的時候我就已經提醒過了 可是至今到現在還沒有有辦法處理那再來就問副署長從去年到現在家長告訴我們拿不到報告 今天他小孩被捕當對待監視器看了呢我現場看了 結果轉過身要來去跟\n教育局通報我已經在右邊看到可是被刪除了那甚至呢如果老師被裁處的要不要被裁處都可以申訴那為什麼家長針對他孩子的這個不成案不能申訴我不知道甚至有些結果也不告訴家長像狼屍案竟然台北市社會局教育局竟然跟家長講說你自己去看新聞稿\n那是去年3月12號的事情我孩子有沒有成案我要去看新聞稿好跟委員報告有關報告的部分在這一次修正的調查辦法那他是在1月22號已經發布了裡頭對調查報告的提供也有很明確的這個規定那再來就是說如果家長他本身就是就是通報的這些個案家長來看的話我剛提到了\n在報告裡面是有一些在辦法裡面對報告的提供是有一些明確的記載以上然後接下來會按照你們的這些因為我現在提的這個有相關的措施對應嗎可是實務現況就是碰到到今天我站這邊我們幾天前還是一樣調查報告就是不給啊\n跟委員報告因為這一次辦法的修正也是委員先前有提示現場的一些情形那我們也跟各縣市跟民間團體有做過比較深入的對話那那些文字應該如何去做處理才能家長拿得到包確實目前也是落法那如果說在縣市的部分執行面還有一些要再做一些協處來讓他們更理解的話這邊我們可以再加強盧尼醫生\n我想問次長那個兒童我覺得你們有一個很好想法就是把因為過去管保母只有在兒少權法兩條而已托嬰中心只有一條授權執法在做管理事實上那個強度不夠那接下來你們也把兒童的安置在保母就是托在保母家或者是托嬰中心的整病在兒童托育服務法何時會送出來\n報告委員我們現在目前已經送到行政院行政院那邊陳時中政委他現在目前正在積極在嚴嚴還有跟法會那邊我知道委員也非常急其實我更急啦我現在已經請同仁我們現在會趕快排入希望能夠趕快送到大院來進行審查\n對 所以是不是儘快不過另外一個我們也是是不是比照因為日本少子化他們的在前年的4月12號成立了兒童家庭廳來對應不管事實上是少子化的對應政策方方今天甚至保健跟房子額內的業務都整併一起來我不知道上次這個我也質詢過我不知道想問一下次長你們目前業務分工跟\n整合狀況跟人員配置和施政方針跟評估指標會是什麼就目前進度是包圍我們其實這個這個案子那個我想也是總統政見他現在要成立兒童專責的這一個機構那現在我們本部已經積極在在研擬幾個方案那部長也有指示我們這邊會趕快來進行那這裡面我們當然就是說有一些有關部內相關的一些\n的一些這個機關等等這些還有最重要是要回應社會對於整個所現在目前少子女化特別是有關兒童照顧這邊的議題那我們就趕快來繼續因為我們看到日本也因為這樣成立之後有些都郡事實上出生率有些微的\n往上這個要去考慮所以那我覺得更重要的可能是不是要以兒童為中心的來執行計畫也就是兒童的友善社會因為像日本他們有所謂的兒童基本法而且有兒童政策的綱領基礎來作為一個依據所以未來事實上希望\n我們的衛福部也好教育部也好甚至今天來的勞動部的所有政策要考慮到孩子的時候要以兒童為中心以上謝謝非常感謝委員我們會全力來推動謝謝好謝謝林委員謝謝次長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.674 --> 00:18.243\n好首先麻煩我們的呂健德呂次長還有我們許綠堅許副署長\n\n00:26.107 --> 00:43.095\n主席謝謝市長安副組長早我想今天因為我們討論要少說女話但我知道女不婚男男婚已經造就了這樣子的一個結構因為民國91年就開始出生率已經下降到20萬以下\n\n00:45.000 --> 01:01.073\n所以這事實上是一個難題啦所以也到了2019年整個已經走到生不如死因為生的比較少死的反而比較多那在這樣的狀況底下的確政府呢也是提出了一些相關的政策希望能夠讓\n\n01:03.137 --> 01:28.558\n年輕的夫婦或者是還沒結婚的是不是可以進入到婚姻當中然後能夠生養小孩提出了相對應的很多政策那我們自己在看就是學齡前的兒童父母因為工作狀況現在這麼高的比例幾乎雙性家庭佔了六成二那政府的我剛剛講前面的對應政策裡邊的確就是要去讓父母可以賺取\n\n01:30.680 --> 01:59.493\n家裡的所開支的費用裡面那當然就是會提供我們的所謂的公共化或者是準攻的這樣的一個措施那也因為政府的這樣子的一個政策的確我們的保姆人數和我們的收托人數過去呢基本上事實上是8比2就是我們兩歲以下兩層呢送出來給保姆跟托嬰中心帶然後八成呢事實上是還是在家裡\n\n02:00.040 --> 02:20.756\n那現在也因為政府的政策變成是七比三也就三成送出來了七成還在家裡那幼兒園呢過去是四比六四成呢事實上送出來六成是在家裡現在有的縣市達到七比三有的縣市還是四比六是六成送出來四成在家裡所以政府的政策的確導引了這樣子的一個狀況可是就要問吼這樣導引政策裡面有沒有隨著配搭你的所有的相關的\n\n02:29.289 --> 02:56.758\n制度跟規定為什麼這麼提所以家外送托上升可是我們的兒少保護的配套到底在哪裡你的相關的包含包含地方政府的相關的對應的為什麼我這樣問因為我們雖然有113的這樣的一個通報可是我們剛剛也提到在100年的時候幼托整合把兩歲以下切到托嬰中心兩歲以上切到幼兒園那\n\n02:58.829 --> 03:26.121\n又加上我剛剛提的政府的很多政策呢已經都是把孩子送托出來的時候到底整個搭配的狀態會是什麼因為家外的話事實上就會有過去兒女幾乎都是處理家內的比較多可是你的地方政府的甚至中央到底有沒有認知到越來越多送托的時候兒女的問題越來越多的時候你的保姆跟托嬰中心以社政來看就分屬三個單位\n\n03:27.381 --> 03:51.964\n家防中心耳哨科跟托育科那我要問像這樣子過去就是因為教育部事實上他的調查因為在2023年的時候法規有調修全部歸他們否則過去幼兒園也有這種問題社會局調查社會局的教育局調查教育局的\n\n03:52.475 --> 03:57.910\n所以如果沒有連結最後就落實掉我在台北市就看到幾個案子事實上是\n\n03:59.502 --> 04:29.182\n老師不當對待孩子的老師離開了然後他持續到下一個單位去為什麼因為兩邊沒有連結那一樣的那現在我們也擔心啊如果保姆跟托育中心有分屬到三個好科室的話那是不是也是會沒有連結因為一個是家防中心一個是兒燒科一個是托育科採取兒燒科調查呢托育科可是家防中心處理是受害這一方如果資料沒有去比對的話我們也會看到甚至比較不像教育部後來有被認定會被要求是法律要求說\n\n04:29.682 --> 04:57.118\n一定要召開我曾經問過地方政府什麼時候開這樣的會要集結到一定的程度一定的量才來開說到底要不要裁處這件事情甚至之前台北市的狼屍案對沒錯結果呢兒少科可以坐任我們的教育單位一直沒有交報告所以錯失良機111年因為沒有去處理那個單一個案隔年造成39個孩子受害所以我就想來問次長\n\n04:58.683 --> 05:24.301\n你對於像家外而且我現在要有耳聞家外的不管是教育部或者是你們衛福部都準備要把它全部歸屬到單一那我也要問之前在處理通報的時候也是有這樣子的問題說通報台北市的狼屍案說通報老師不需要通報到我們的社政單位可是明明兒少權法53條就明確要求\n\n05:25.001 --> 05:47.875\n結果怎麼會是用教育部的法規這事實上是分屬兩個所以想問先問次長這邊你對於這樣分屬三科甚至我剛剛講有聽聞說以後要單一來處理的話那是由誰來單一處理非常感謝岳勤委員對於這個問題關心那我先簡單回答兩個重點第一個就是說這裡面其實牽涉到事實上就是說我們原先的兒少全法\n\n05:49.080 --> 06:08.723\n裡面跟托育專法還有幼照法之間三者之間的一個銜接問題那我先跟委員報告第一個重點現在就是說我們現在目前有關托育專法的部分我也了解也非常感謝委員的指導托育服務法我們現在目前已經把它獨立出來這裡面有關於像你剛剛說有關於相關這個家外的這一個整個這一個部分我們現在目前做一個處理\n\n06:09.304 --> 06:22.055\n另外第二個有關於就是現在沒有介紹整個財閥樣態還有基準之間三者之間的這一個這一個原先是淨核那我們現在希望能夠把它變成整核另外一個現在剛剛您剛剛說有關幾個科之間我是不是先請來我們先請那個來市長\n\n06:25.678 --> 06:46.891\n家外的案件我們建議就是之前我們做的是用一案管制一案管制也就是這個案件進來不管你在分屬在哪個單位但他就是在有一個單一窗口來做管制所謂上一案管制是什麼像台北市好了他事實上是各個社福中心去做調查好去了解\n\n06:47.871 --> 07:03.106\n對於受害這一方像這個我有一個擔憂就是說我如果常常長年以來我都沒有碰到我比較常碰到家內這是我們的現況就我碰到家內的都比較嚴重當家外發生的時候很輕微都常常不會被認定因為社福中心他要不要啟動要\n\n07:05.328 --> 07:09.711\n兒少科去做裁處這個決定權在有時候單一的社工身上你們有辦法解決這個問題嗎目前原理朝姓邵類似這樣用審議會的方式來做處理可是沒有明定一些相關法規很常看到的是各地方審法裡頭那就麻煩要寫在法規裡面否則的話我們現在看到是一個社工他常年\n\n07:26.824 --> 07:44.560\n幾乎都處理家內的沒有在處理家外他的經驗會可能會覺得這不夠嚴重所以不會去做認定那當然也不會去核報到兒少科說要不要裁處我希望這個可以改善那一樣問副署長說幼兒園未來事實上是全部教育局一頭包到底嗎跟委員報告就幼兒園的部分從112年3月1號開始實施包含我們的幼照法跟教保條例以及\n\n07:55.269 --> 08:08.276\n這兩法所訂定的調查辦法那說幼兒園所發生的這些相關事項都會由教育局的認定委員會來做處理所以從那個時間點開始全部都有教育局但是如果他發生一些通報的案件\n\n08:08.840 --> 08:35.272\n除了要通報教育局之外以目前兒少全法該有的他們還是會雙向來做通報以上好也謝謝我們的教育部我也請保護司要切記你是53條的主管機關是你們這邊所以請你們不要認為說那就不需要按照53條通報是要的教育部有要教育部通報的那社政還有社政要通報的所以台北市從去年從凱凱案到我們的狼屍案\n\n08:37.694 --> 09:06.978\n然後到那個平安新村裡面一個是39個孩子受害一個是26個孩子受害所以我覺得不應該再做任這種事情否則你叫父母怎麼敢生敢養為什麼因為政府的如果地方政府如果都沒有做好像昨天我們又再開一個桃園的案子所以如果陸續這樣子你叫父母要在家裡帶小孩嗎我們有講說能夠照顧不離子那可是這樣的狀態裡面怎麼可能讓家長安心呢\n\n09:08.059 --> 09:27.195\n所以在品質上我覺得可能要去考量到因為現在縣市政府保姆的管理參差不齊認定不一為什麼從之前訓練我覺得政府部門和在職訓練聘用的老師我就讓我有點擔憂了為什麼這麼講因為有時候在查不當對待在參與這個會議的時候那有\n\n09:30.017 --> 09:57.415\n孩子事實上是被壓著牆壓吃飯可是這時候有個委員講說這個還好一般父母都會是這樣做可是老師你不是一般父母那律師你發言的時候可是他是你們私家屬私家系課程的老師如果他都不懂得兒童權利公約的話那怎麼去擔任這樣的課程所以我覺得從課程就可能存在一些問題所在如果老師都不對兒童權利公約這麼肯認的時候\n\n10:00.317 --> 10:27.297\n老师那他讲的斯亚斯究竟是什么所以我觉得你们对于地方政府办的职前跟在职训练有没有通盘的去确认这些老师到底能不能去担负这样的一个角色传达到出去的讯息如果是错误的话可能造成保护也误解了对孩子可能产生有些伤害这个也是在凯凯安之后我要求说是不是针对于训练要能够\n\n10:28.243 --> 10:37.006\n對於老師的品質這邊要把握還有各地方不一定有的呢看到有問題譬如說7日內那個收託要回報可是沒回報呢有人事實上是輔導限改怎麼限改不需要限改因為沒回報就沒回報怎麼不是開單呢可是沒有\n\n10:47.370 --> 11:01.569\n地方做法不一致的時候我覺得這也是衛福部有沒有要求各地方政府我到這個縣市我得到的是這樣子的那不會是22個縣市22套做法吧那22套做法以外\n\n11:02.133 --> 11:29.405\n像台北市又有12個行政區12個行政區12個承辦人員又有12套不同的做法的話怎麼去應對那保護的管理機制怎麼會甚至托嬰中心也是有同樣的問題我不知道市長對於中央到底要怎麼去強化這些拘托的管理尤其是要讓地方其一不是明明法規就明定事實上是標準是一致的為什麼有些人先輔導再現改那有些人直接開單\n\n11:30.818 --> 11:45.750\n這個差異我不知道市長要怎麼去處理非常感謝委員我想第一個真的是孩子的發展不能等而且每一個孩子在少子化的時代每一個都是我們的心肝寶貝所以我們這個完全就是有關相關的兒女還有那個家內家外這個都不管我們都一定會\n\n11:46.471 --> 12:05.547\n因為做到零容忍這是第一點另外第二點剛剛委員剛剛所說的其實我覺得這裡面我們雖然說法律已經有這一個明定可是我想比較重要的重點應該是現在接下來您剛剛所說的就是說根據CRC的精神我們必須我會回去也會請同仁對於各縣市政府這邊的一個整個未來教育同仁的承辦同仁的教育訓練這邊會來強化\n\n12:07.228 --> 12:26.821\n次長我也上第一會期的時候我就提出來如果你們不解決所謂大廈完委會的事情的那個要求的話基本上訪視員要到保姆家訪視就困難重重因為我要抓他抄收我要抓他違規問題管理員就是不讓我上去你們不解決這個問題的話我們越來越多\n\n12:29.557 --> 12:59.001\n在大廈裡邊擔任保姆的工作那基本上也就是沒有辦法解決甚至托嬰中心也有這樣的樣態所以你們要不要去處理我覺得第一會期的時候我就已經提醒過了可是至今到現在還沒有有辦法處理那再來就問副署長從去年到現在家長告訴我們拿不到報告今天他小孩被捕當對待監視器看了呢我現場看了結果轉過身要來去跟\n\n12:59.522 --> 13:23.136\n教育局通報我已經在右邊看到可是被刪除了那甚至呢如果老師被裁處的要不要被裁處都可以申訴那為什麼家長針對他孩子的這個不成案不能申訴我不知道甚至有些結果也不告訴家長像狼屍案竟然台北市社會局教育局竟然跟家長講說你自己去看新聞稿\n\n13:24.434 --> 13:53.034\n那是去年3月12號的事情我孩子有沒有成案我要去看新聞稿好跟委員報告有關報告的部分在這一次修正的調查辦法那他是在1月22號已經發布了裡頭對調查報告的提供也有很明確的這個規定那再來就是說如果家長他本身就是就是通報的這些個案家長來看的話我剛提到了\n\n13:53.373 --> 14:12.225\n在報告裡面是有一些在辦法裡面對報告的提供是有一些明確的記載以上然後接下來會按照你們的這些因為我現在提的這個有相關的措施對應嗎可是實務現況就是碰到到今天我站這邊我們幾天前還是一樣調查報告就是不給啊\n\n14:13.870 --> 14:37.025\n跟委員報告因為這一次辦法的修正也是委員先前有提示現場的一些情形那我們也跟各縣市跟民間團體有做過比較深入的對話那那些文字應該如何去做處理才能家長拿得到包確實目前也是落法那如果說在縣市的部分執行面還有一些要再做一些協處來讓他們更理解的話這邊我們可以再加強盧尼醫生\n\n14:41.527 --> 15:06.277\n我想問次長那個兒童我覺得你們有一個很好想法就是把因為過去管保母只有在兒少權法兩條而已托嬰中心只有一條授權執法在做管理事實上那個強度不夠那接下來你們也把兒童的安置在保母就是托在保母家或者是托嬰中心的整病在兒童托育服務法何時會送出來\n\n15:07.097 --> 15:21.902\n報告委員我們現在目前已經送到行政院行政院那邊陳時中政委他現在目前正在積極在嚴嚴還有跟法會那邊我知道委員也非常急其實我更急啦我現在已經請同仁我們現在會趕快排入希望能夠趕快送到大院來進行審查\n\n15:27.063 --> 15:53.562\n對所以是不是儘快不過另外一個我們也是是不是比照因為日本少子化他們的在前年的4月12號成立了兒童家庭廳來對應不管事實上是少子化的對應政策方方今天甚至保健跟房子額內的業務都整併一起來我不知道上次這個我也質詢過我不知道想問一下次長你們目前業務分工跟\n\n15:54.122 --> 16:17.191\n整合狀況跟人員配置和施政方針跟評估指標會是什麼就目前進度是包圍我們其實這個這個案子那個我想也是總統政見他現在要成立兒童專責的這一個機構那現在我們本部已經積極在在研擬幾個方案那部長也有指示我們這邊會趕快來進行那這裡面我們當然就是說有一些有關部內相關的一些\n\n16:18.311 --> 16:34.217\n的一些這個機關等等這些還有最重要是要回應社會對於整個所現在目前少子女化特別是有關兒童照顧這邊的議題那我們就趕快來繼續因為我們看到日本也因為這樣成立之後有些都郡事實上出生率有些微的\n\n16:34.737 --> 16:54.430\n往上這個要去考慮所以那我覺得更重要的可能是不是要以兒童為中心的來執行計畫也就是兒童的友善社會因為像日本他們有所謂的兒童基本法而且有兒童政策的綱領基礎來作為一個依據所以未來事實上希望\n\n16:54.850 --> 17:03.254\n我們的衛福部也好教育部也好甚至今天來的勞動部的所有政策要考慮到孩子的時候要以兒童為中心以上謝謝非常感謝委員我們會全力來推動謝謝好謝謝林委員謝謝次長\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.674,"end":18.243,"text":"好 首先麻煩我們的呂健德呂次長還有我們許綠堅許副署長"},{"start":26.107,"end":43.095,"text":"主席謝謝 市長安 副組長早我想今天因為我們討論要少說女話但我知道女不婚男男婚已經造就了這樣子的一個結構因為民國91年就開始出生率已經下降到20萬以下"},{"start":45,"end":61.073,"text":"所以這事實上是一個難題啦所以也到了2019年整個已經走到生不如死因為生的比較少死的反而比較多那在這樣的狀況底下的確政府呢也是提出了一些相關的政策希望能夠讓"},{"start":63.137,"end":88.558,"text":"年輕的夫婦或者是還沒結婚的是不是可以進入到婚姻當中然後能夠生養小孩提出了相對應的很多政策那我們自己在看就是學齡前的兒童父母因為工作狀況現在這麼高的比例幾乎雙性家庭佔了六成二那政府的我剛剛講前面的對應政策裡邊的確就是要去讓父母可以賺取"},{"start":90.68,"end":119.493,"text":"家裡的所開支的費用裡面那當然就是會提供我們的所謂的公共化或者是準攻的這樣的一個措施那也因為政府的這樣子的一個政策的確我們的保姆人數和我們的收托人數過去呢基本上事實上是8比2就是我們兩歲以下兩層呢送出來給保姆跟托嬰中心帶然後八成呢事實上是還是在家裡"},{"start":120.04,"end":140.756,"text":"那現在也因為政府的政策變成是七比三也就三成送出來了七成還在家裡那幼兒園呢過去是四比六四成呢事實上送出來六成是在家裡現在有的縣市達到七比三有的縣市還是四比六是六成送出來四成在家裡所以政府的政策的確導引了這樣子的一個狀況可是就要問吼這樣導引政策裡面有沒有隨著配搭你的所有的相關的"},{"start":149.289,"end":176.758,"text":"制度跟規定為什麼這麼提所以家外送托上升可是我們的兒少保護的配套到底在哪裡你的相關的包含包含地方政府的相關的對應的為什麼我這樣問因為我們雖然有113的這樣的一個通報可是我們剛剛也提到在100年的時候幼托整合把兩歲以下切到托嬰中心兩歲以上切到幼兒園那"},{"start":178.829,"end":206.121,"text":"又加上我剛剛提的政府的很多政策呢已經都是把孩子送托出來的時候到底整個搭配的狀態會是什麼因為家外的話事實上就會有過去兒女幾乎都是處理家內的比較多可是你的地方政府的甚至中央到底有沒有認知到越來越多送托的時候兒女的問題越來越多的時候你的保姆跟托嬰中心以社政來看就分屬三個單位"},{"start":207.381,"end":231.964,"text":"家防中心 耳哨科跟托育科那我要問像這樣子過去就是因為教育部事實上他的調查因為在2023年的時候法規有調修全部歸他們 否則過去幼兒園也有這種問題社會局調查社會局的 教育局調查教育局的"},{"start":232.475,"end":237.91,"text":"所以如果沒有連結 最後就落實掉我在台北市就看到幾個案子 事實上是"},{"start":239.502,"end":269.182,"text":"老師不當對待孩子的老師離開了然後他持續到下一個單位去為什麼因為兩邊沒有連結那一樣的那現在我們也擔心啊如果保姆跟托育中心有分屬到三個好科室的話那是不是也是會沒有連結因為一個是家防中心一個是兒燒科一個是托育科採取兒燒科調查呢托育科可是家防中心處理是受害這一方如果資料沒有去比對的話我們也會看到甚至比較不像教育部後來有被認定會被要求是法律要求說"},{"start":269.682,"end":297.118,"text":"一定要召開我曾經問過地方政府什麼時候開這樣的會要集結到一定的程度一定的量才來開說到底要不要裁處這件事情甚至之前台北市的狼屍案對沒錯結果呢兒少科可以坐任我們的教育單位一直沒有交報告所以錯失良機111年因為沒有去處理那個單一個案隔年造成39個孩子受害所以我就想來問次長"},{"start":298.683,"end":324.301,"text":"你對於像家外而且我現在要有耳聞家外的不管是教育部或者是你們衛福部都準備要把它全部歸屬到單一那我也要問之前在處理通報的時候也是有這樣子的問題說通報台北市的狼屍案說通報老師不需要通報到我們的社政單位可是明明兒少權法53條就明確要求"},{"start":325.001,"end":347.875,"text":"結果怎麼會是用教育部的法規這事實上是分屬兩個所以想問先問次長這邊你對於這樣分屬三科甚至我剛剛講有聽聞說以後要單一來處理的話那是由誰來單一處理非常感謝岳勤委員對於這個問題關心那我先簡單回答兩個重點第一個就是說這裡面其實牽涉到事實上就是說我們原先的兒少全法"},{"start":349.08,"end":368.723,"text":"裡面跟托育專法還有幼照法之間三者之間的一個銜接問題那我先跟委員報告第一個重點現在就是說我們現在目前有關托育專法的部分我也了解也非常感謝委員的指導托育服務法我們現在目前已經把它獨立出來這裡面有關於像你剛剛說有關於相關這個家外的這一個整個這一個部分我們現在目前做一個處理"},{"start":369.304,"end":382.055,"text":"另外第二個有關於就是現在沒有介紹整個財閥樣態還有基準之間三者之間的這一個這一個原先是淨核那我們現在希望能夠把它變成整核另外一個現在剛剛您剛剛說有關幾個科之間我是不是先請來我們先請那個來市長"},{"start":385.678,"end":406.891,"text":"家外的案件我們建議就是之前我們做的是用一案管制一案管制也就是這個案件進來不管你在分屬在哪個單位但他就是在有一個單一窗口來做管制所謂上一案管制是什麼像台北市好了他事實上是各個社福中心去做調查好去了解"},{"start":407.871,"end":423.106,"text":"對於受害這一方像這個我有一個擔憂就是說我如果常常長年以來我都沒有碰到我比較常碰到家內這是我們的現況就我碰到家內的都比較嚴重當家外發生的時候很輕微都常常不會被認定因為社福中心他要不要啟動要"},{"start":425.328,"end":429.711,"text":"兒少科去做裁處這個決定權在有時候單一的社工身上你們有辦法解決這個問題嗎目前原理朝姓邵類似這樣用審議會的方式來做處理可是沒有明定一些相關法規很常看到的是各地方審法裡頭那就麻煩要寫在法規裡面否則的話我們現在看到是一個社工他常年"},{"start":446.824,"end":464.56,"text":"幾乎都處理家內的沒有在處理家外他的經驗會可能會覺得這不夠嚴重所以不會去做認定那當然也不會去核報到兒少科說要不要裁處我希望這個可以改善那一樣問副署長說幼兒園未來事實上是全部教育局一頭包到底嗎跟委員報告就幼兒園的部分從112年3月1號開始實施包含我們的幼照法跟教保條例以及"},{"start":475.269,"end":488.276,"text":"這兩法所訂定的調查辦法那說幼兒園所發生的這些相關事項都會由教育局的認定委員會來做處理所以從那個時間點開始全部都有教育局但是如果他發生一些通報的案件"},{"start":488.84,"end":515.272,"text":"除了要通報教育局之外以目前兒少全法該有的他們還是會雙向來做通報以上好也謝謝我們的教育部我也請保護司要切記你是53條的主管機關是你們這邊所以請你們不要認為說那就不需要按照53條通報是要的教育部有要教育部通報的那社政還有社政要通報的所以台北市從去年從凱凱案到我們的狼屍案"},{"start":517.694,"end":546.978,"text":"然後到那個平安新村裡面一個是39個孩子受害一個是26個孩子受害所以我覺得不應該再做任這種事情否則你叫父母怎麼敢生敢養為什麼因為政府的如果地方政府如果都沒有做好像昨天我們又再開一個桃園的案子所以如果陸續這樣子你叫父母要在家裡帶小孩嗎我們有講說能夠照顧不離子那可是這樣的狀態裡面怎麼可能讓家長安心呢"},{"start":548.059,"end":567.195,"text":"所以在品質上我覺得可能要去考量到因為現在縣市政府保姆的管理參差不齊認定不一為什麼從之前訓練我覺得政府部門和在職訓練聘用的老師我就讓我有點擔憂了為什麼這麼講因為有時候在查不當對待在參與這個會議的時候那有"},{"start":570.017,"end":597.415,"text":"孩子事實上是被壓著牆壓吃飯可是這時候有個委員講說這個還好一般父母都會是這樣做可是老師你不是一般父母那律師你發言的時候可是他是你們私家屬私家系課程的老師如果他都不懂得兒童權利公約的話那怎麼去擔任這樣的課程所以我覺得從課程就可能存在一些問題所在如果老師都不對兒童權利公約這麼肯認的時候"},{"start":600.317,"end":627.297,"text":"老师那他讲的斯亚斯究竟是什么所以我觉得你们对于地方政府办的职前跟在职训练有没有通盘的去确认这些老师到底能不能去担负这样的一个角色传达到出去的讯息如果是错误的话可能造成保护也误解了对孩子可能产生有些伤害这个也是在凯凯安之后我要求说是不是针对于训练要能够"},{"start":628.243,"end":637.006,"text":"對於老師的品質這邊要把握還有各地方不一定有的呢看到有問題譬如說7日內那個收託要回報可是沒回報呢有人事實上是輔導限改怎麼限改不需要限改因為沒回報就沒回報怎麼不是開單呢可是沒有"},{"start":647.37,"end":661.569,"text":"地方做法不一致的時候我覺得這也是衛福部有沒有要求各地方政府我到這個縣市我得到的是這樣子的那不會是22個縣市22套做法吧那22套做法以外"},{"start":662.133,"end":689.405,"text":"像台北市又有12個行政區12個行政區12個承辦人員又有12套不同的做法的話怎麼去應對那保護的管理機制怎麼會甚至托嬰中心也是有同樣的問題我不知道市長對於中央到底要怎麼去強化這些拘托的管理尤其是要讓地方其一不是明明法規就明定事實上是標準是一致的為什麼有些人先輔導再現改那有些人直接開單"},{"start":690.818,"end":705.75,"text":"這個差異我不知道市長要怎麼去處理非常感謝委員我想第一個真的是孩子的發展不能等而且每一個孩子在少子化的時代每一個都是我們的心肝寶貝所以我們這個完全就是有關相關的兒女還有那個家內家外這個都不管我們都一定會"},{"start":706.471,"end":725.547,"text":"因為做到零容忍這是第一點另外第二點剛剛委員剛剛所說的其實我覺得這裡面我們雖然說法律已經有這一個明定可是我想比較重要的重點應該是現在接下來您剛剛所說的就是說根據CRC的精神我們必須我會回去也會請同仁對於各縣市政府這邊的一個整個未來教育同仁的承辦同仁的教育訓練這邊會來強化"},{"start":727.228,"end":746.821,"text":"次長我也上第一會期的時候我就提出來如果你們不解決所謂大廈完委會的事情的那個要求的話基本上訪視員要到保姆家訪視就困難重重因為我要抓他抄收我要抓他違規問題管理員就是不讓我上去你們不解決這個問題的話我們越來越多"},{"start":749.557,"end":779.001,"text":"在大廈裡邊 擔任保姆的工作那基本上也就是沒有辦法解決 甚至托嬰中心也有這樣的樣態所以你們要不要去處理 我覺得第一會期的時候我就已經提醒過了 可是至今到現在還沒有有辦法處理那再來就問副署長從去年到現在家長告訴我們拿不到報告 今天他小孩被捕當對待監視器看了呢我現場看了 結果轉過身要來去跟"},{"start":779.522,"end":803.136,"text":"教育局通報我已經在右邊看到可是被刪除了那甚至呢如果老師被裁處的要不要被裁處都可以申訴那為什麼家長針對他孩子的這個不成案不能申訴我不知道甚至有些結果也不告訴家長像狼屍案竟然台北市社會局教育局竟然跟家長講說你自己去看新聞稿"},{"start":804.434,"end":833.034,"text":"那是去年3月12號的事情我孩子有沒有成案我要去看新聞稿好跟委員報告有關報告的部分在這一次修正的調查辦法那他是在1月22號已經發布了裡頭對調查報告的提供也有很明確的這個規定那再來就是說如果家長他本身就是就是通報的這些個案家長來看的話我剛提到了"},{"start":833.373,"end":852.225,"text":"在報告裡面是有一些在辦法裡面對報告的提供是有一些明確的記載以上然後接下來會按照你們的這些因為我現在提的這個有相關的措施對應嗎可是實務現況就是碰到到今天我站這邊我們幾天前還是一樣調查報告就是不給啊"},{"start":853.87,"end":877.025,"text":"跟委員報告因為這一次辦法的修正也是委員先前有提示現場的一些情形那我們也跟各縣市跟民間團體有做過比較深入的對話那那些文字應該如何去做處理才能家長拿得到包確實目前也是落法那如果說在縣市的部分執行面還有一些要再做一些協處來讓他們更理解的話這邊我們可以再加強盧尼醫生"},{"start":881.527,"end":906.277,"text":"我想問次長那個兒童我覺得你們有一個很好想法就是把因為過去管保母只有在兒少權法兩條而已托嬰中心只有一條授權執法在做管理事實上那個強度不夠那接下來你們也把兒童的安置在保母就是托在保母家或者是托嬰中心的整病在兒童托育服務法何時會送出來"},{"start":907.097,"end":921.902,"text":"報告委員我們現在目前已經送到行政院行政院那邊陳時中政委他現在目前正在積極在嚴嚴還有跟法會那邊我知道委員也非常急其實我更急啦我現在已經請同仁我們現在會趕快排入希望能夠趕快送到大院來進行審查"},{"start":927.063,"end":953.562,"text":"對 所以是不是儘快不過另外一個我們也是是不是比照因為日本少子化他們的在前年的4月12號成立了兒童家庭廳來對應不管事實上是少子化的對應政策方方今天甚至保健跟房子額內的業務都整併一起來我不知道上次這個我也質詢過我不知道想問一下次長你們目前業務分工跟"},{"start":954.122,"end":977.191,"text":"整合狀況跟人員配置和施政方針跟評估指標會是什麼就目前進度是包圍我們其實這個這個案子那個我想也是總統政見他現在要成立兒童專責的這一個機構那現在我們本部已經積極在在研擬幾個方案那部長也有指示我們這邊會趕快來進行那這裡面我們當然就是說有一些有關部內相關的一些"},{"start":978.311,"end":994.217,"text":"的一些這個機關等等這些還有最重要是要回應社會對於整個所現在目前少子女化特別是有關兒童照顧這邊的議題那我們就趕快來繼續因為我們看到日本也因為這樣成立之後有些都郡事實上出生率有些微的"},{"start":994.737,"end":1014.43,"text":"往上這個要去考慮所以那我覺得更重要的可能是不是要以兒童為中心的來執行計畫也就是兒童的友善社會因為像日本他們有所謂的兒童基本法而且有兒童政策的綱領基礎來作為一個依據所以未來事實上希望"},{"start":1014.85,"end":1023.254,"text":"我們的衛福部也好教育部也好甚至今天來的勞動部的所有政策要考慮到孩子的時候要以兒童為中心以上謝謝非常感謝委員我們會全力來推動謝謝好謝謝林委員謝謝次長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":612,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時37分）主席，麻煩呂建德呂次長，還有許麗娟許副署長。謝謝。次長和副署長早。"],["呂次長建德：委員早。"],["林委員月琴：今天我們討論少子化，我們知道女不婚、男男婚已經造就了這樣子的一個結構，從民國91年開始出生率已經下降到20萬以下，事實上這是一個難題，所以到了2019年整個已經走到生不如死，因為生得比較少，死得反而比較多。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["林委員月琴：在這樣的狀況底下，的確政府也是提出了一些相關政策，希望能夠讓年輕的夫婦或者是還沒結婚的可以進入到婚姻當中，然後能夠生養小孩，提出了很多相對應的政策。我們自己在看，學齡前的兒童父母因為工作狀況，現在這麼高的比例，雙薪家庭占了六成二，政府提出我剛剛講的對應政策裡面，的確就是要讓父母可以賺取家裡開支的費用，當然就是會提供所謂的公共化或者是準公這樣一個措施，也因為政府這樣子的一個政策，的確我們的保母人數和收托人數過去是八比二，就是兩歲以下兩成是送出來給保母和托嬰中心帶，然後八成事實上還是在家裡。現在也因為政府的政策，變成是七比三，也就是三成送出來了，七成還在家裡。幼兒園過去是四比六，四成送出來，六成在家裡，現在有的縣市達到七比三，有的縣市還是四比六，是六成送出來，四成在家裡。所以政府的政策的確導引了這樣子的一個狀況，可是就要問，這樣導引政策裡面，有沒有隨著配搭所有相關的制度跟規定？為什麼這麼提？所以家外送托上升，我們兒少保護的配套到底在哪裡？包含地方政府相關對應的，為什麼我會這樣問？因為我們雖然有113這樣的通報專線，可是我剛剛也提到，100年的時候幼托整合，把兩歲以下切到托嬰中心，兩歲以上切到幼兒園，又加上我剛剛提到，當政府很多政策都已經是把孩子送托出來的時候，到底整個搭配的狀態會是什麼？因為家外的話，過去兒虐幾乎都是處理家內的比較多，可是地方政府、甚至中央到底有沒有認知到，當越來越多送托的時候、兒虐的問題越來越多的時候，以社政來看，保母跟托嬰中心就分屬三個單位──家防中心、兒少科跟托育科。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["林委員月琴：事實上教育部的調查，是因為在2023年的時候，法規有調修為全部歸他們，否則過去幼兒園也有這種問題，就是社會局調查社會局的，教育局調查教育局的，結果沒有連結，最後就漏失掉了。我在臺北市就看到幾個案子，就是不當對待孩子的老師離開了，然後他持續到下一個單位去，為什麼？因為兩邊沒有連結。一樣地，現在我們也擔心，如果保母跟托育中心分屬到三個科室的話，是不是也會沒有連結？因為一個是家防中心，一個是兒少科，一個是托育科，裁處是兒少科，調查是托育科，可是家防中心處理的是受害這一方，如果資料沒有去比對的話，我們也會看到……甚至他們不像教育部後來有被法律要求一定要召開會議，我曾經問過地方政府什麼時候會開這樣的會？他們說要集結到一定的程度、一定的量，才會來開說到底要不要裁處這件事情，甚至之前臺北市的狼師案……"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["林委員月琴：兒少科可以坐任教育單位一直沒有交報告，結果錯失良機，111年因為沒有去處理那個單一個案，隔年造成39個孩子受害。所以我就想問次長，你對於像家外……而且我現在偶有耳聞，不管是教育部或是衛福部都準備要把家外的全部歸屬到單一，我也要問，之前在處理通報的時候也是有這樣的問題，像臺北市的狼師案，就說老師不需要通報到社政單位，可是明明兒少權法第五十三條就有明確要求，結果怎麼會是用教育部的法規呢？這事實上是分屬兩科。所以想先問次長，你對於這樣分屬三科，甚至我剛剛講有聽聞以後要單一來處理的話，那是由誰來單一處理？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝月琴委員對於這個問題的關心，我先簡單回答兩個重點：第一個，這裡面其實牽涉到我們原先的兒少權法、托育專法以及幼照法三者之間的銜接問題。我先跟委員報告第一個重點，目前有關托育專法的部分，我想委員也了解，也非常感謝委員的指導，我們目前已經把托育服務法獨立出來，這裡面像你們剛剛說有關於家外這個部分，我們目前有做處理。第二個，現在基本上會牽涉到整個裁罰樣態還有基準等三者之間的問題，原先是競合，我們現在希望能夠把它變成整合。另外，你剛剛說有關幾個科之間，我是不是先請司長簡單回答一下？"],["張司長秀鴛：家外的案件，之前我們做的是用一案管制，也也就是這個案件進來，不管你分屬在哪個單位，它就是由單一窗口來做管制。"],["林委員月琴：所謂的一案管制是什麼？像臺北市好了，它是由各個社福中心去做調查、去了解受害這一方。事實上我有個擔憂，長年以來我都沒有碰到家外的，我比較常碰到家內的，這是我們的現況，我怕家內的都比較嚴重，但當家外的發生的時候，很輕微的常常都不會被認定，因為社福中心要不要啟動讓兒少科去做裁處，這個決定權有時候是在單一的社工身上，你們有辦法解決這個問題嗎？"],["張司長秀鴛：目前研擬是朝類似性騷這樣用審議會的方式來做處理。"],["林委員月琴：可是沒有明定一些相關法規，很常看到各地方政府……"],["張司長秀鴛：應該會寫在法裡頭。"],["林委員月琴：那就麻煩要寫在法規裡面，否則我們現在看到的是，一個社工常年幾乎都處理家內的，沒有在處理家外的，他的經驗可能會覺得這不夠嚴重，所以不會去做認定，當然也不會核報到兒少科說要不要裁處，我希望這個可以改善。","一樣問副署長，幼兒園未來是全部由教育局一頭包到底嗎？"],["許副署長麗娟：跟委員報告，幼兒園的部分從112年3月1日開始實施，包含幼教法跟教保條例以及依這兩法所訂定的調查辦法，所有幼兒園發生的相關事項都會由教育局的認定委員會來做處理，所以從那個時間點開始，全部都由教育局負責，但是如果他發生一些通報的案件，除了要通報教育局之外，以目前兒少權法該有的，他們還是會雙向來做通報。"],["林委員月琴：好，也謝謝教育部。我也請保護司要切記，第五十三條的主管機關是你們這邊，所以請你們不要認為那就不需要按照第五十三條來通報，其實是要的，教育部有教育部要通報的，社政也有社政要通報的。臺北市從去年的剴剴案到平安新村的狼師案，一個是39個孩子受害，一個是26個孩子受害，所以我覺得不應該再坐任這種事情發生，否則你叫父母怎麼敢生、敢養？如果地方政府都沒有做好，像昨天我們又開一個桃園的案子，如果陸續這樣子，你叫父母要在家裡帶小孩嗎？我們又講說希望能夠照顧不離職，可是這樣的狀態之下怎麼可能讓家長安心呢？","所以在品質上，我覺得可能要去考量到……因為現在縣市政府對保母的管理參差不齊、認定不一，從政府部門辦的職前訓練到在職訓練聘用的老師，就讓我有點擔憂了，為什麼這麼講？因為有一次我在查不當對待、在參與這個會議的時候，這個孩子事實上是被強壓著吃飯，可是這時候有個委員就說：這個還好，一般父母都會這樣做。可是老師不是一般父母，律師在發言的時候……他還是社家署CRC課程的老師耶！如果他都不懂得兒童權利公約的話，怎麼去擔任這樣課程的老師？所以我覺得從課程就可能存在一些問題，如果老師都不對兒童權利公約這麼肯認的話，當他去當保母的老師，他講的CRC究竟是什麼？所以我覺得你們對於地方政府辦的職前跟在職訓練有沒有通盤地去確認這些老師到底能不能擔負這樣的角色？如果他傳達出去的訊息是錯誤的，可能造成保母也誤解了，這樣對孩子就可能產生一些傷害。這也是在剴剴案之後，我要求訓練的部分，對於老師的品質要把握。","還有各地方不一定，有的看到有問題，譬如說7日內收托要回報，可是沒回報呢？有人事實上是輔導限改，怎麼限改？不需要限改，因為沒回報就沒回報，怎麼不是開單呢？可是沒有，當地方作法不一致的時候，我覺得這也是衛福部有沒有要求各地方政府……我到這個縣市我得到的是這樣子的，不會22個縣市有22套作法吧？那22套作法以外，像臺北市又有12個行政區，如果12個行政區的12個承辦人員又有12套不同的作法的話，該怎麼去應對？不止是保母的管理機制，甚至托嬰中心也是有同樣的問題。次長，中央到底要怎麼去強化這些居托的管理？尤其是要讓地方齊一，明明法規就有明定，事實上標準是一致的，為什麼有些人是先輔導再限改，有些人則是直接開單？這個中間的差異，我不知道次長要怎麼去處理？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員，第一個，真的是孩子的發展不能等，而且在少子化的時代，每一個孩子都是我們的心肝寶貝，所以有關於兒虐以及家內、家外，這個都不管，我們都一定會是做到零容忍，這是第一點。第二點，就像委員剛剛所說的，雖然法律已經有明定，可是我想比較重要的重點應該就像您剛剛說的，接下來要根據CRC的精神，我們回去後也會請同仁未來要對各縣市政府辦理承辦同仁的教育訓練來進行強化。"],["林委員月琴：次長，第1會期的時候我就提出來，如果你們不解決大廈管委會的要求的話，基本上訪視員要到保母家訪視就困難重重，因為我要抓他超收、我要抓他違規，問題是管理員就是不讓我上去，你們不解決這個問題的話，越來越多人在大廈裡擔任保母的工作，基本上就沒有辦法解決，甚至托嬰中心也有這樣的樣態，所以你們要不要去處理？第1會期我就已經提醒過了，可是至今還沒有辦法處理。","再來請問副署長，從去年到現在，家長告訴我們拿不到報告，他的小孩被不當對待，現場看了監視器，結果轉過身要跟教育局通報，雖然已經在幼兒園看到，可是被刪除了，既然老師要不要被裁處都可以申訴，為什麼家長針對孩子的不當對待不成案卻不能申訴？甚至有些結果也不告訴家長，像狼師案，臺北市社會局、教育局竟然跟家長說你自己去看新聞稿，那是去年3月12號的事情。怎麼會我的孩子有沒有成案，要我去看新聞稿？"],["許副署長麗娟：有關報告的部分，這一次修正的調查辦法在1月22號已經發布了，裡頭對調查報告的提供也有很明確的規定。再來，如果通報個案的家長本身來看，我剛提到了，在辦法裡面對報告的提供有一些明確的記載。"],["林委員月琴：接下來，按照你們的這些規定，針對我現在提的有相關措施對應嗎？可是實務現況就是碰到。雖然今天我站在這邊，但幾天前調查報告還是一樣就是不給。"],["許副署長麗娟：這一次辦法的修正也是因為委員先前有提示現場的一些情形，我們跟各縣市、民間團體有做過比較深入的對話，那些文字應該如何處理才能讓家長拿得到，目前確實也落法。如果縣市在執行面還有一些要再協處讓他們更理解的，我們可以再加強努力。"],["林委員月琴：次長，我覺得你們有一個很好的想法，因為過去管保母只有兩條兒少權法條文而已。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["林委員月琴：托嬰中心只有一條授權子法在管理，事實上，強度不夠，接下來你們也把兒童托在保母家或者托嬰中心整併在兒童托育服務法……"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["林委員月琴：何時會送出來？"],["呂次長建德：我們現在已經送到行政院，陳時中政委目前正在積極研擬，還有跟法規會那邊……我知道委員非常急，其實我更急。我已經請同仁趕快排入，希望能夠趕快送到大院進行審議。"],["林委員月琴：是不是儘快？"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["林委員月琴：另外，我們是不是也比照？因為日本少子化，他們在前年4月12號成立了兒童家庭廳來對應，不管是少子化的對應政策、發放津貼，甚至保健跟防止兒虐的業務都整併在一起。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["林委員月琴：上次我也質詢過這個，想問一下次長，你們目前業務分工、整合狀況、人員配置、施政方針和評估指標會是什麼？目前進度是什麼？"],["呂次長建德：這個案子也是總統的政見，現在要成立兒童專責機構，本部已經積極在研擬幾個方案，部長也有指示，所以我們會趕快來進行。這裡面當然有一些部內相關的機關等等，最重要是要回應社會對於目前少子女化，特別是有關兒童照顧的議題，我們會趕快來進行。"],["林委員月琴：可能要快一點！我們看到日本也因為這樣的單位成立之後，有些都縣的出生率些微往上，這個要去考慮。"],["呂次長建德：好，OK。"],["林委員月琴：我覺得更重要的在於，要以兒童為中心來執行計畫，也就是兒童的友善社會。因為像日本有所謂的兒童基本法，而且有兒童政策綱領基礎作為依據，所以未來希望衛福部也好，教育部也好，甚至今天來的勞動部，所有的政策考慮到孩子的時候，要以兒童為中心。以上，謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員，我們會全力來推動，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝次長。","繼續請陳菁徽委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-4","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","黃秀芳","劉建國","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","張雅琳","楊曜","李坤城","麥玉珍","陳瑩","鄭正鈐","黃捷","林德福","陳培瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、國家發展委員會、教育部、法務部針對「少子女化衝擊，如何營造\n友善托育環境」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00001"}}}