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\"目前在整個修法的過程裡面在徵詢各方的意見裡面呢對於是不是要適用責任法各方是意見不同所以我們還只能我們就是盡我們的努力讓我們自己的法治可以更完備那目前呢跟委員報告有關於這個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 491.943, \"end\": 492.123, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 492.123, \"end\": 492.343, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 492.343, \"end\": 492.563, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 492.563, \"end\": 492.844, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 492.844, \"end\": 493.004, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 493.004, \"end\": 493.124, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 493.124, \"end\": 493.364, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 493.364, \"end\": 493.684, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 493.684, \"end\": 493.984, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 493.984, \"end\": 494.505, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"徵\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 494.505, \"end\": 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\"現在我要講的就是因為事實上現在在公務人員內部也並不是完全都沒有任何人去適用職安法因為這個是由勞動部他可以去做這個指定的在公務機構公務人員的範疇裡面他也可以去指定哪一些的這個公務人員他是可以適用職安法\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 527.548, \"end\": 527.749, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 527.749, \"end\": 527.909, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 527.909, \"end\": 528.389, \"score\": 0.706}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 528.389, \"end\": 528.589, \"score\": 0.728}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 528.589, \"end\": 528.93, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 528.93, \"end\": 529.15, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 529.15, \"end\": 529.59, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 529.59, \"end\": 529.87, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 529.87, \"end\": 530.591, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 530.591, \"end\": 531.171, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 531.171, \"end\": 531.392, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 531.392, \"end\": 531.632, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 531.632, \"end\": 532.192, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 532.192, \"end\": 532.332, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 532.332, \"end\": 532.693, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"並\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 532.693, \"end\": 532.853, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 532.853, \"end\": 533.113, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 533.113, \"end\": 533.453, \"score\": 0.779}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 533.453, \"end\": 533.794, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 533.794, \"end\": 534.254, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 534.254, \"end\": 534.454, \"score\": 0.698}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 534.454, \"end\": 534.614, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 534.614, \"end\": 534.794, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 534.794, \"end\": 534.935, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 534.935, \"end\": 535.155, \"score\": 0.709}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 535.155, \"end\": 535.555, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"適\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 535.555, \"end\": 535.855, \"score\": 0.772}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 535.855, \"end\": 536.096, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 536.096, \"end\": 536.256, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 536.256, \"end\": 536.676, \"score\": 0.544}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 536.676, \"end\": 536.836, \"score\": 0.771}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 536.836, \"end\": 537.757, \"score\": 0.727}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 537.757, \"end\": 538.037, \"score\": 0.753}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 538.037, \"end\": 538.277, \"score\": 0.74}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"範\"}, {\"word\": \"疇\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 543.722, \"end\": 543.902, \"score\": 0.671}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 543.902, \"end\": 544.082, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 544.082, \"end\": 544.242, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 544.242, \"end\": 544.342, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 544.342, \"end\": 544.422, \"score\": 0.358}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 544.422, \"end\": 544.643, \"score\": 0.764}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 544.643, \"end\": 544.863, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 544.863, \"end\": 545.283, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"哪\", \"start\": 545.283, \"end\": 545.523, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 545.523, \"end\": 545.704, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 545.704, \"end\": 546.004, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 546.004, \"end\": 546.424, \"score\": 0.693}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 546.424, \"end\": 546.624, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 546.624, \"end\": 546.845, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 546.845, \"end\": 547.005, \"score\": 0.758}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 547.005, \"end\": 547.145, \"score\": 0.69}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 547.145, \"end\": 547.245, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 547.245, \"end\": 547.485, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"適\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 547.485, \"end\": 547.825, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 547.825, \"end\": 548.106, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 548.106, \"end\": 548.126, \"score\": 0.914}]}, {\"start\": 548.726, \"end\": 551.188, \"text\": \"那事實上我覺得職業安全的保障因為大家都公認現在我們就是適用於勞工的職安法事實上是優於我們現在公務人員的比如說我們現在一般像我們也會有一些陳情那麼他可以發動相關的勞檢\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 548.726, \"end\": 548.746, \"score\": 0.122}, {\"word\": \"事\", 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{\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 747.876, \"end\": 747.916, \"score\": 0.004}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 747.916, \"end\": 747.936, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 747.936, \"end\": 747.956, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 747.956, \"end\": 747.976, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,687 --> 00:00:17,900\n好謝謝主席我先請我們的秘書長好麻煩秘書長還有我們的學事部部長部長委員長\n\n2\n00:00:22,529 --> 00:00:44,314\n沒有長剛才吳思堯委員問了一連串的有關預算的部分我們這次考試院有被凍結預算凍結預算影響很大請問一下考試院到現在有沒有來向立法院提出解凍案的申請目前還沒有會不會提出解凍案的申請\n\n3\n00:00:51,735 --> 00:01:11,943\n我想最後一定要一定要嘛那什麼時候要提出解凍案申請如果這麼慘沒有錢那當然要需要趕快解凍那其實總統府是在上個上上星期五就已經公告了那請問一下什麼時候會送進解凍案\n\n4\n00:01:15,435 --> 00:01:19,801\n跟委員報告這個部分我們內部的作業應該還在作業中如果一直遲遲不送進解凍案那麼只能說你們根本不在乎這些預算啊在這邊講的這個漫天這個寒窮\n\n5\n00:01:31,558 --> 00:01:47,069\n這個受影響那個受影響但是卻一直都沒有送解凍案就會讓人質疑這樣的說法到底是真實還是造謠因為時間關係我請秘書長可以先回我請問一下全市部部長部長在去年\n\n6\n00:01:53,185 --> 00:02:22,007\n勞動部的勞法署北分署爆發了這個嚴重的霸凌案所以呢其實受到社會大眾高度的重視那尤其在我們第一線的公務人員那麼其實他們面臨到的除了是這個法的不足之外另外就是很多的公務人員在原單位他如果受到霸凌或者他的身心事實上真的已經沒有辦法承受的時候\n\n7\n00:02:22,788 --> 00:02:28,979\n他想要調離原單位啊難上加難難如登天對不對\n\n8\n00:02:30,488 --> 00:02:43,836\n我跟委員報告就是說公務員要離開原機關他各式各樣的原因都有啦那他是不是現在先向原機關這個申請那原機關大部分原機關都是同意的啦只是時間可能會沒有但是我們依照我們的法令也就是公務人員如果他要申請調離原機關的話必須得到原機關的同意對不對沒有錯沒有錯現在的規定是這樣子\n\n9\n00:02:56,283 --> 00:03:01,875\n好那這個規定合不合理呢我跟委員報告其實他不能講說他不合理我必須這樣講因為\n\n10\n00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:26,406\n用人權是在機關機關還是好像用人的需要當然我們要考慮當事人可能有一些需求他有一些可能說但是問題是我剛剛講我們現在面臨到這兩個要兼顧啦你比如說今天我就去問我時間可以我就要問文化部部長像央廣它在數年前爆發了一個重大的弊案吹哨者\n\n11\n00:03:28,206 --> 00:03:48,345\n等於像包含董事長還有各董事揭發這個弊案之後然後他的考機受影響然後他受到霸凌了像這樣子的個案事實上非常多好那麼現在尤其在去年這個公務人員霸凌案發生之後那麼\n\n12\n00:03:49,426 --> 00:04:07,121\n想要調離原機關但是原機關通常都是不准啦十之八九是不准的啦不准的狀況之下他只能在那邊繼續承受這樣子的一個不管是言語霸凌或者是烤雞霸凌等等的所以我想請問一下我們的部長\n\n13\n00:04:10,663 --> 00:04:33,831\n部長有沒有在公務人員任用法施行細則至於這個不需要通過立法院修法在施行細則的部分是不是可以修正他不需要一定要得到原機關的同意他才能夠去商調其他的單位我跟委員報告兩件事情第一件事情事實面法是先說我們每年大概有\n\n14\n00:04:35,273 --> 00:04:53,929\n調動的人數大概會有平均全國大概一萬人左右所以大部分機關是會同意的當然一定有委員剛剛提的這些也有很多我們自己就有很多的選民服務就是原機關不同意不動人啊我知道一定會有只是說TOTAL是大部分是同意啦我必須這樣講那第二件事情是部裡面確實在啟動這個討論的機制啊\n\n15\n00:04:57,932 --> 00:05:20,498\n我進來就開始先處理這個問題就是我已經啟動這個討論機制那我跟委員報這個機制除了公務人員本身的需求我們一定知道以外我們也要同時兼顧機關的那個需求所以看這兩個中間怎麼樣去取得一個調和平衡你們到底會不會修這個施行細則我們目前的方向是要討論這個機制如果可以的話我們會來處理這個問題\n\n16\n00:05:22,199 --> 00:05:26,284\n因為這個說實在啊剛才講說什麼公務人員像你剛才講什麼什麼公職人員的什麼獎通不能辦我都覺得很奇怪你趕快來解凍怎麼會不能辦呢對不對因為根本沒有人在這個傑出公務人員這個根本沒有\n\n17\n00:05:38,999 --> 00:05:54,507\n這個科目被刪除那你們只要去解凍就好你講半天而我們第一線的公務人員現在最痛苦的地方就是他想要就是離開原單位原單位呢其實是不放人不放人他就在這邊一直\n\n18\n00:05:55,948 --> 00:06:11,778\n就是身心都受到折磨所以我在這邊希望你們在公務人員任用施行細則的部分能夠加速來推動可不可以我跟委員報告就像我剛剛講其實部裡面早在上個月或者是好像是更早之前就已經邀請機關來討論這個問題所以我們對這個問題很早就已經開始在啟動大概還需要多少時間呢\n\n19\n00:06:18,342 --> 00:06:36,361\n但是第一次的討論機關的意見還是比較多元我們要再跟機關再做充分的溝通以後我們會繼續來努力這個事情好時間暫停一下我再請我們的保訓會的主委我們再請那個保訓會的主委是\n\n20\n00:06:45,489 --> 00:06:51,972\n好主委你剛才也講了一堆就是怎麼樣公務人員這個預算被刪被凍我剛剛就要講就是我跟秘書長說的你們最重要的事情趕快提出解凍與其在那邊一直在賣慘其實要解凍是比較重要的而且這個是符合以往的正常程序\n\n21\n00:07:09,261 --> 00:07:24,942\n那另外一樣就是在去年大家討論那麼多的不管是霸凌也好性騷也好那麼事實上公務人員一直希望能夠爭取的就是能夠全面的去適用那個職安法\n\n22\n00:07:25,723 --> 00:07:47,109\n那但這部分說實在也很奇怪因為勞動部他認為我今天照顧的是勞工那所以他並沒有很對這件事情至少到目前勞動部沒有正面積極的回應好那我想請問一下主委您同不同意公務人員應該全面的去適用職安法您同意嗎跟委員報告\n\n23\n00:07:49,910 --> 00:08:10,761\n目前呢因為大院對我們的一個期待就是我們儘速的來完備公務人員保障法跟這個公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法就像剛剛黃國昌委員說對我們的提醒所以目前呢我們最主要的議題就是怎麼樣讓我們現有的保障法跟安慰辦法能夠全面的更完備\n\n24\n00:08:11,943 --> 00:08:26,153\n目前在整個修法的過程裡面在徵詢各方的意見裡面呢對於是不是要適用責任法各方是意見不同所以我們還只能我們就是盡我們的努力讓我們自己的法治可以更完備那目前呢跟委員報告有關於這個\n\n25\n00:08:28,695 --> 00:08:45,247\n提升法的位階然後呢增加了這個行政法懲戒法然後呢這個行政的裁罰還有違反刑事的部分呢移送檢調單位另外呢我們在整個調查的部分內部跟外部的這個我都曉得過去講了很多\n\n26\n00:08:47,548 --> 00:09:08,126\n現在我要講的就是因為事實上現在在公務人員內部也並不是完全都沒有任何人去適用職安法因為這個是由勞動部他可以去做這個指定的在公務機構公務人員的範疇裡面他也可以去指定哪一些的這個公務人員他是可以適用職安法\n\n27\n00:09:08,726 --> 00:09:11,188\n那事實上我覺得職業安全的保障因為大家都公認現在我們就是適用於勞工的職安法事實上是優於我們現在公務人員的比如說我們現在一般像我們也會有一些陳情那麼他可以發動相關的勞檢\n\n28\n00:09:30,660 --> 00:09:38,728\n那但是我們公務人員就沒有嘛所以我要講的就是說在我們職業安全的保障的時候不要變成一國兩制或者是在公務人員體系裡面也出現了一國兩制\n\n29\n00:09:45,855 --> 00:09:49,898\n就是有一些部分適用部分其實絕大部分是不適用的所以我要請教的就是主委如果按照您剛才的說法你剛才講說就我們現在公務體系裡面的不管是安慰辦法或是公務人員保障法我們怎麼樣的去強化它\n\n30\n00:10:06,451 --> 00:10:32,149\n但是現在公務人員普遍是希望能夠去適用職安法所以這一點你剛才的意思是是覺得不應該反正只要只在公務人員體系的你們相關辦法去把它強化就好了是嗎跟委員說明一下目前呢因為這個公務人員分布各種不同的世代那整個的這個全國各種場域也都不一樣所以呢\n\n31\n00:10:33,564 --> 00:10:54,660\n基本上目前不同類別的公務人員的代表他們對這個議題還有這個各用人主管機關呢對於這個議題呢都還在多元的討論那各國的法制呢也有一元制也有二元制如果基層的公務人員基層的公務人員一定會就是他的保障越多會越好基層公務人員一定是保障越多越好\n\n32\n00:10:55,300 --> 00:11:08,164\n所以因為剛才那個部長已經在跟你搖耳朵了你現在有什麼你們回答要修正嗎沒有我剛看秘書長跟部長搖耳朵沒有他只是說提醒我不要占用到委員的時間這樣\n\n33\n00:11:11,445 --> 00:11:14,007\n謝謝秘書長基本上我會讓備宣官員但是你這樣漏漏藏的發言當然就是因為不要占用時間所以我重點是我再做最後的重點我認為應該還是去朝向公務人員要去適用職安法的這樣的規定\n\n34\n00:11:31,323 --> 00:11:37,646\n因為事實上我們在之前修的《性平三法》因為當時也是覺得說這個《性平三法》除了要保障勞工之外在勞工的職場要保障之外也應該去保障公務人員的職場上他的一個基本的權益所以同樣的在這些不管我剛剛講不管霸凌不管是性騷這些種種的在職場上的權益我認為不要一國兩制\n\n35\n00:12:00,919 --> 00:12:27,976\n所以公務人員應該去朝向怎麼樣可以去適用到職安法因為在職安法裡面它的法律本來就講是適用各行業適用各行業但是現在就排除了絕大部分的公務人員我認為這是不合理的好不好我還是希望我們的考試院尤其我們的這個保訓會能不能在這個部分呢能夠再去做多一些的去推動跟研究好不好謝謝委員好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9687\t17900\t好 謝謝主席 我先請我們的秘書長好 麻煩秘書長還有我們的學事部部長部長委員長\n22529\t44314\t沒有長 剛才吳思堯委員問了一連串的有關預算的部分我們這次考試院有被凍結預算凍結預算影響很大請問一下考試院到現在有沒有來向立法院提出解凍案的申請目前還沒有會不會提出解凍案的申請\n51735\t71943\t我想最後一定要一定要嘛那什麼時候要提出解凍案申請如果這麼慘沒有錢那當然要需要趕快解凍那其實總統府是在上個上上星期五就已經公告了那請問一下什麼時候會送進解凍案\n75435\t79801\t跟委員報告這個部分我們內部的作業應該還在作業中如果一直遲遲不送進解凍案那麼只能說你們根本不在乎這些預算啊在這邊講的這個漫天這個寒窮\n91558\t107069\t這個受影響 那個受影響 但是卻一直都沒有送解凍案就會讓人質疑 這樣的說法到底是真實還是造謠因為時間關係 我請秘書長可以先回我請問一下全市部部長部長 在去年\n113185\t142007\t勞動部的勞法署 北分署爆發了這個嚴重的霸凌案所以呢其實受到社會大眾高度的重視那尤其在我們第一線的公務人員那麼其實他們面臨到的除了是這個法的不足之外另外就是很多的公務人員在原單位他如果受到霸凌或者他的身心事實上真的已經沒有辦法承受的時候\n142788\t148979\t他想要調離原單位啊 難上加難難如登天 對不對\n150488\t163836\t我跟委員報告就是說公務員要離開原機關他各式各樣的原因都有啦那他是不是現在先向原機關這個申請那原機關大部分原機關都是同意的啦只是時間可能會沒有但是我們依照我們的法令也就是公務人員如果他要申請調離原機關的話必須得到原機關的同意對不對沒有錯沒有錯現在的規定是這樣子\n176283\t181875\t好那這個規定合不合理呢我跟委員報告其實他不能講說他不合理我必須這樣講因為\n183840\t206406\t用人權是在機關 機關還是好像用人的需要當然我們要考慮當事人可能有一些需求他有一些可能說但是問題是我剛剛講我們現在面臨到這兩個要兼顧啦你比如說今天我就去問我時間可以我就要問文化部部長像央廣它在數年前爆發了一個重大的弊案吹哨者\n208206\t228345\t等於像包含董事長還有各董事揭發這個弊案之後然後他的考機受影響然後他受到霸凌了像這樣子的個案事實上非常多好 那麼現在尤其在去年這個公務人員霸凌案發生之後那麼\n229426\t247121\t想要調離原機關 但是原機關通常都是不准啦 十之八九是不准的啦不准的狀況之下 他只能在那邊繼續承受這樣子的一個不管是言語霸凌 或者是烤雞霸凌 等等的所以我想請問一下我們的部長\n250663\t273831\t部長有沒有在公務人員任用法施行細則至於這個不需要通過立法院修法在施行細則的部分是不是可以修正他不需要一定要得到原機關的同意他才能夠去商調其他的單位我跟委員報告兩件事情第一件事情事實面法是先說我們每年大概有\n275273\t293929\t調動的人數大概會有平均全國大概一萬人左右所以大部分機關是會同意的當然一定有委員剛剛提的這些也有很多我們自己就有很多的選民服務就是原機關不同意不動人啊我知道一定會有只是說TOTAL是大部分是同意啦我必須這樣講那第二件事情是部裡面確實在啟動這個討論的機制啊\n297932\t320498\t我進來就開始先處理這個問題就是我已經啟動這個討論機制那我跟委員報這個機制除了公務人員本身的需求我們一定知道以外我們也要同時兼顧機關的那個需求所以看這兩個中間怎麼樣去取得一個調和平衡你們到底會不會修這個施行細則我們目前的方向是要討論這個機制如果可以的話我們會來處理這個問題\n322199\t326284\t因為這個說實在啊剛才講說什麼公務人員像你剛才講什麼什麼公職人員的什麼獎通不能辦我都覺得很奇怪你趕快來解凍怎麼會不能辦呢對不對因為根本沒有人在這個傑出公務人員這個根本沒有\n338999\t354507\t這個科目被刪除那你們只要去解凍就好你講半天而我們第一線的公務人員現在最痛苦的地方就是他想要就是離開原單位原單位呢其實是不放人不放人他就在這邊一直\n355948\t371778\t就是身心都受到折磨所以我在這邊希望你們在公務人員任用施行細則的部分能夠加速來推動可不可以我跟委員報告就像我剛剛講其實部裡面早在上個月或者是好像是更早之前就已經邀請機關來討論這個問題所以我們對這個問題很早就已經開始在啟動大概還需要多少時間呢\n378342\t396361\t但是第一次的討論機關的意見還是比較多元我們要再跟機關再做充分的溝通以後我們會繼續來努力這個事情好 時間暫停一下我再請我們的保訓會的主委我們再請那個保訓會的主委是\n405489\t411972\t好 主委 你剛才也講了一堆 就是怎麼樣公務人員這個預算被刪 被凍我剛剛就要講 就是我跟秘書長說的你們最重要的事情 趕快提出解凍與其在那邊一直在賣慘 其實要解凍是比較重要的而且這個是符合以往的正常程序\n429261\t444942\t那另外一樣 就是在去年大家討論那麼多的不管是霸凌也好 性騷也好那麼事實上公務人員一直希望能夠爭取的就是能夠全面的去適用那個職安法\n445723\t467109\t那但這部分說實在也很奇怪因為勞動部他認為我今天照顧的是勞工那所以他並沒有很對這件事情至少到目前勞動部沒有正面積極的回應好那我想請問一下主委您同不同意公務人員應該全面的去適用職安法 您同意嗎跟委員報告\n469910\t490761\t目前呢因為大院對我們的一個期待就是我們儘速的來完備公務人員保障法跟這個公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法就像剛剛黃國昌委員說對我們的提醒所以目前呢我們最主要的議題就是怎麼樣讓我們現有的保障法跟安慰辦法能夠全面的更完備\n491943\t506153\t目前在整個修法的過程裡面在徵詢各方的意見裡面呢對於是不是要適用責任法各方是意見不同所以我們還只能我們就是盡我們的努力讓我們自己的法治可以更完備那目前呢跟委員報告有關於這個\n508695\t525247\t提升法的位階然後呢增加了這個行政法懲戒法然後呢這個行政的裁罰還有違反刑事的部分呢移送檢調單位另外呢我們在整個調查的部分內部跟外部的這個我都曉得過去講了很多\n527548\t548126\t現在我要講的就是因為事實上現在在公務人員內部也並不是完全都沒有任何人去適用職安法因為這個是由勞動部他可以去做這個指定的在公務機構公務人員的範疇裡面他也可以去指定哪一些的這個公務人員他是可以適用職安法\n548726\t551188\t那事實上我覺得職業安全的保障因為大家都公認現在我們就是適用於勞工的職安法事實上是優於我們現在公務人員的比如說我們現在一般像我們也會有一些陳情那麼他可以發動相關的勞檢\n570660\t578728\t那但是我們公務人員就沒有嘛所以我要講的就是說在我們職業安全的保障的時候不要變成一國兩制或者是在公務人員體系裡面也出現了一國兩制\n585855\t589898\t就是有一些部分適用部分其實絕大部分是不適用的所以我要請教的就是 主委如果按照您剛才的說法你剛才講說就我們現在公務體系裡面的不管是安慰辦法或是公務人員保障法我們怎麼樣的去強化它\n606451\t632149\t但是現在公務人員普遍是希望能夠去適用職安法所以這一點你剛才的意思是是覺得不應該反正只要只在公務人員體系的你們相關辦法去把它強化就好了是嗎跟委員說明一下目前呢因為這個公務人員分布各種不同的世代那整個的這個全國各種場域也都不一樣所以呢\n633564\t654660\t基本上目前不同類別的公務人員的代表他們對這個議題還有這個各用人主管機關呢對於這個議題呢都還在多元的討論那各國的法制呢也有一元制也有二元制如果基層的公務人員基層的公務人員一定會就是他的保障越多會越好基層公務人員一定是保障越多越好\n655300\t668164\t所以因為剛才那個部長已經在跟你搖耳朵了你現在有什麼你們回答要修正嗎沒有我剛看秘書長跟部長搖耳朵沒有他只是說提醒我不要占用到委員的時間這樣\n671445\t674007\t謝謝秘書長 基本上我會讓備宣官員但是你這樣漏漏藏的發言當然就是因為不要占用時間所以我重點是 我再做最後的重點我認為應該還是去朝向公務人員要去適用職安法的這樣的規定\n691323\t697646\t因為事實上我們在之前修的《性平三法》因為當時也是覺得說這個《性平三法》除了要保障勞工之外在勞工的職場要保障之外也應該去保障公務人員的職場上他的一個基本的權益所以同樣的在這些不管 我剛剛講不管霸凌 不管是性騷這些種種的在職場上的權益我認為不要一國兩制\n720919\t747976\t所以公務人員應該去朝向怎麼樣可以去適用到職安法因為在職安法裡面它的法律本來就講是適用各行業適用各行業但是現在就排除了絕大部分的公務人員我認為這是不合理的好不好我還是希望我們的考試院尤其我們的這個保訓會能不能在這個部分呢能夠再去做多一些的去推動跟研究好不好謝謝委員好 謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 我先請我們的秘書長好 麻煩秘書長還有我們的學事部部長部長委員長\n沒有長 剛才吳思堯委員問了一連串的有關預算的部分我們這次考試院有被凍結預算凍結預算影響很大請問一下考試院到現在有沒有來向立法院提出解凍案的申請目前還沒有會不會提出解凍案的申請\n我想最後一定要一定要嘛那什麼時候要提出解凍案申請如果這麼慘沒有錢那當然要需要趕快解凍那其實總統府是在上個上上星期五就已經公告了那請問一下什麼時候會送進解凍案\n跟委員報告這個部分我們內部的作業應該還在作業中如果一直遲遲不送進解凍案那麼只能說你們根本不在乎這些預算啊在這邊講的這個漫天這個寒窮\n這個受影響 那個受影響 但是卻一直都沒有送解凍案就會讓人質疑 這樣的說法到底是真實還是造謠因為時間關係 我請秘書長可以先回我請問一下全市部部長部長 在去年\n勞動部的勞法署 北分署爆發了這個嚴重的霸凌案所以呢其實受到社會大眾高度的重視那尤其在我們第一線的公務人員那麼其實他們面臨到的除了是這個法的不足之外另外就是很多的公務人員在原單位他如果受到霸凌或者他的身心事實上真的已經沒有辦法承受的時候\n他想要調離原單位啊 難上加難難如登天 對不對\n我跟委員報告就是說公務員要離開原機關他各式各樣的原因都有啦那他是不是現在先向原機關這個申請那原機關大部分原機關都是同意的啦只是時間可能會沒有但是我們依照我們的法令也就是公務人員如果他要申請調離原機關的話必須得到原機關的同意對不對沒有錯沒有錯現在的規定是這樣子\n好那這個規定合不合理呢我跟委員報告其實他不能講說他不合理我必須這樣講因為\n用人權是在機關 機關還是好像用人的需要當然我們要考慮當事人可能有一些需求他有一些可能說但是問題是我剛剛講我們現在面臨到這兩個要兼顧啦你比如說今天我就去問我時間可以我就要問文化部部長像央廣它在數年前爆發了一個重大的弊案吹哨者\n等於像包含董事長還有各董事揭發這個弊案之後然後他的考機受影響然後他受到霸凌了像這樣子的個案事實上非常多好 那麼現在尤其在去年這個公務人員霸凌案發生之後那麼\n想要調離原機關 但是原機關通常都是不准啦 十之八九是不准的啦不准的狀況之下 他只能在那邊繼續承受這樣子的一個不管是言語霸凌 或者是烤雞霸凌 等等的所以我想請問一下我們的部長\n部長有沒有在公務人員任用法施行細則至於這個不需要通過立法院修法在施行細則的部分是不是可以修正他不需要一定要得到原機關的同意他才能夠去商調其他的單位我跟委員報告兩件事情第一件事情事實面法是先說我們每年大概有\n調動的人數大概會有平均全國大概一萬人左右所以大部分機關是會同意的當然一定有委員剛剛提的這些也有很多我們自己就有很多的選民服務就是原機關不同意不動人啊我知道一定會有只是說TOTAL是大部分是同意啦我必須這樣講那第二件事情是部裡面確實在啟動這個討論的機制啊\n我進來就開始先處理這個問題就是我已經啟動這個討論機制那我跟委員報這個機制除了公務人員本身的需求我們一定知道以外我們也要同時兼顧機關的那個需求所以看這兩個中間怎麼樣去取得一個調和平衡你們到底會不會修這個施行細則我們目前的方向是要討論這個機制如果可以的話我們會來處理這個問題\n因為這個說實在啊剛才講說什麼公務人員像你剛才講什麼什麼公職人員的什麼獎通不能辦我都覺得很奇怪你趕快來解凍怎麼會不能辦呢對不對因為根本沒有人在這個傑出公務人員這個根本沒有\n這個科目被刪除那你們只要去解凍就好你講半天而我們第一線的公務人員現在最痛苦的地方就是他想要就是離開原單位原單位呢其實是不放人不放人他就在這邊一直\n就是身心都受到折磨所以我在這邊希望你們在公務人員任用施行細則的部分能夠加速來推動可不可以我跟委員報告就像我剛剛講其實部裡面早在上個月或者是好像是更早之前就已經邀請機關來討論這個問題所以我們對這個問題很早就已經開始在啟動大概還需要多少時間呢\n但是第一次的討論機關的意見還是比較多元我們要再跟機關再做充分的溝通以後我們會繼續來努力這個事情好 時間暫停一下我再請我們的保訓會的主委我們再請那個保訓會的主委是\n好 主委 你剛才也講了一堆 就是怎麼樣公務人員這個預算被刪 被凍我剛剛就要講 就是我跟秘書長說的你們最重要的事情 趕快提出解凍與其在那邊一直在賣慘 其實要解凍是比較重要的而且這個是符合以往的正常程序\n那另外一樣 就是在去年大家討論那麼多的不管是霸凌也好 性騷也好那麼事實上公務人員一直希望能夠爭取的就是能夠全面的去適用那個職安法\n那但這部分說實在也很奇怪因為勞動部他認為我今天照顧的是勞工那所以他並沒有很對這件事情至少到目前勞動部沒有正面積極的回應好那我想請問一下主委您同不同意公務人員應該全面的去適用職安法 您同意嗎跟委員報告\n目前呢因為大院對我們的一個期待就是我們儘速的來完備公務人員保障法跟這個公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法就像剛剛黃國昌委員說對我們的提醒所以目前呢我們最主要的議題就是怎麼樣讓我們現有的保障法跟安慰辦法能夠全面的更完備\n目前在整個修法的過程裡面在徵詢各方的意見裡面呢對於是不是要適用責任法各方是意見不同所以我們還只能我們就是盡我們的努力讓我們自己的法治可以更完備那目前呢跟委員報告有關於這個\n提升法的位階然後呢增加了這個行政法懲戒法然後呢這個行政的裁罰還有違反刑事的部分呢移送檢調單位另外呢我們在整個調查的部分內部跟外部的這個我都曉得過去講了很多\n現在我要講的就是因為事實上現在在公務人員內部也並不是完全都沒有任何人去適用職安法因為這個是由勞動部他可以去做這個指定的在公務機構公務人員的範疇裡面他也可以去指定哪一些的這個公務人員他是可以適用職安法\n那事實上我覺得職業安全的保障因為大家都公認現在我們就是適用於勞工的職安法事實上是優於我們現在公務人員的比如說我們現在一般像我們也會有一些陳情那麼他可以發動相關的勞檢\n那但是我們公務人員就沒有嘛所以我要講的就是說在我們職業安全的保障的時候不要變成一國兩制或者是在公務人員體系裡面也出現了一國兩制\n就是有一些部分適用部分其實絕大部分是不適用的所以我要請教的就是 主委如果按照您剛才的說法你剛才講說就我們現在公務體系裡面的不管是安慰辦法或是公務人員保障法我們怎麼樣的去強化它\n但是現在公務人員普遍是希望能夠去適用職安法所以這一點你剛才的意思是是覺得不應該反正只要只在公務人員體系的你們相關辦法去把它強化就好了是嗎跟委員說明一下目前呢因為這個公務人員分布各種不同的世代那整個的這個全國各種場域也都不一樣所以呢\n基本上目前不同類別的公務人員的代表他們對這個議題還有這個各用人主管機關呢對於這個議題呢都還在多元的討論那各國的法制呢也有一元制也有二元制如果基層的公務人員基層的公務人員一定會就是他的保障越多會越好基層公務人員一定是保障越多越好\n所以因為剛才那個部長已經在跟你搖耳朵了你現在有什麼你們回答要修正嗎沒有我剛看秘書長跟部長搖耳朵沒有他只是說提醒我不要占用到委員的時間這樣\n謝謝秘書長 基本上我會讓備宣官員但是你這樣漏漏藏的發言當然就是因為不要占用時間所以我重點是 我再做最後的重點我認為應該還是去朝向公務人員要去適用職安法的這樣的規定\n因為事實上我們在之前修的《性平三法》因為當時也是覺得說這個《性平三法》除了要保障勞工之外在勞工的職場要保障之外也應該去保障公務人員的職場上他的一個基本的權益所以同樣的在這些不管 我剛剛講不管霸凌 不管是性騷這些種種的在職場上的權益我認為不要一國兩制\n所以公務人員應該去朝向怎麼樣可以去適用到職安法因為在職安法裡面它的法律本來就講是適用各行業適用各行業但是現在就排除了絕大部分的公務人員我認為這是不合理的好不好我還是希望我們的考試院尤其我們的這個保訓會能不能在這個部分呢能夠再去做多一些的去推動跟研究好不好謝謝委員好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.687 --> 00:17.900\n好謝謝主席我先請我們的秘書長好麻煩秘書長還有我們的學事部部長部長委員長\n\n00:22.529 --> 00:44.314\n沒有長剛才吳思堯委員問了一連串的有關預算的部分我們這次考試院有被凍結預算凍結預算影響很大請問一下考試院到現在有沒有來向立法院提出解凍案的申請目前還沒有會不會提出解凍案的申請\n\n00:51.735 --> 01:11.943\n我想最後一定要一定要嘛那什麼時候要提出解凍案申請如果這麼慘沒有錢那當然要需要趕快解凍那其實總統府是在上個上上星期五就已經公告了那請問一下什麼時候會送進解凍案\n\n01:15.435 --> 01:19.801\n跟委員報告這個部分我們內部的作業應該還在作業中如果一直遲遲不送進解凍案那麼只能說你們根本不在乎這些預算啊在這邊講的這個漫天這個寒窮\n\n01:31.558 --> 01:47.069\n這個受影響那個受影響但是卻一直都沒有送解凍案就會讓人質疑這樣的說法到底是真實還是造謠因為時間關係我請秘書長可以先回我請問一下全市部部長部長在去年\n\n01:53.185 --> 02:22.007\n勞動部的勞法署北分署爆發了這個嚴重的霸凌案所以呢其實受到社會大眾高度的重視那尤其在我們第一線的公務人員那麼其實他們面臨到的除了是這個法的不足之外另外就是很多的公務人員在原單位他如果受到霸凌或者他的身心事實上真的已經沒有辦法承受的時候\n\n02:22.788 --> 02:28.979\n他想要調離原單位啊難上加難難如登天對不對\n\n02:30.488 --> 02:43.836\n我跟委員報告就是說公務員要離開原機關他各式各樣的原因都有啦那他是不是現在先向原機關這個申請那原機關大部分原機關都是同意的啦只是時間可能會沒有但是我們依照我們的法令也就是公務人員如果他要申請調離原機關的話必須得到原機關的同意對不對沒有錯沒有錯現在的規定是這樣子\n\n02:56.283 --> 03:01.875\n好那這個規定合不合理呢我跟委員報告其實他不能講說他不合理我必須這樣講因為\n\n03:03.840 --> 03:26.406\n用人權是在機關機關還是好像用人的需要當然我們要考慮當事人可能有一些需求他有一些可能說但是問題是我剛剛講我們現在面臨到這兩個要兼顧啦你比如說今天我就去問我時間可以我就要問文化部部長像央廣它在數年前爆發了一個重大的弊案吹哨者\n\n03:28.206 --> 03:48.345\n等於像包含董事長還有各董事揭發這個弊案之後然後他的考機受影響然後他受到霸凌了像這樣子的個案事實上非常多好那麼現在尤其在去年這個公務人員霸凌案發生之後那麼\n\n03:49.426 --> 04:07.121\n想要調離原機關但是原機關通常都是不准啦十之八九是不准的啦不准的狀況之下他只能在那邊繼續承受這樣子的一個不管是言語霸凌或者是烤雞霸凌等等的所以我想請問一下我們的部長\n\n04:10.663 --> 04:33.831\n部長有沒有在公務人員任用法施行細則至於這個不需要通過立法院修法在施行細則的部分是不是可以修正他不需要一定要得到原機關的同意他才能夠去商調其他的單位我跟委員報告兩件事情第一件事情事實面法是先說我們每年大概有\n\n04:35.273 --> 04:53.929\n調動的人數大概會有平均全國大概一萬人左右所以大部分機關是會同意的當然一定有委員剛剛提的這些也有很多我們自己就有很多的選民服務就是原機關不同意不動人啊我知道一定會有只是說TOTAL是大部分是同意啦我必須這樣講那第二件事情是部裡面確實在啟動這個討論的機制啊\n\n04:57.932 --> 05:20.498\n我進來就開始先處理這個問題就是我已經啟動這個討論機制那我跟委員報這個機制除了公務人員本身的需求我們一定知道以外我們也要同時兼顧機關的那個需求所以看這兩個中間怎麼樣去取得一個調和平衡你們到底會不會修這個施行細則我們目前的方向是要討論這個機制如果可以的話我們會來處理這個問題\n\n05:22.199 --> 05:26.284\n因為這個說實在啊剛才講說什麼公務人員像你剛才講什麼什麼公職人員的什麼獎通不能辦我都覺得很奇怪你趕快來解凍怎麼會不能辦呢對不對因為根本沒有人在這個傑出公務人員這個根本沒有\n\n05:38.999 --> 05:54.507\n這個科目被刪除那你們只要去解凍就好你講半天而我們第一線的公務人員現在最痛苦的地方就是他想要就是離開原單位原單位呢其實是不放人不放人他就在這邊一直\n\n05:55.948 --> 06:11.778\n就是身心都受到折磨所以我在這邊希望你們在公務人員任用施行細則的部分能夠加速來推動可不可以我跟委員報告就像我剛剛講其實部裡面早在上個月或者是好像是更早之前就已經邀請機關來討論這個問題所以我們對這個問題很早就已經開始在啟動大概還需要多少時間呢\n\n06:18.342 --> 06:36.361\n但是第一次的討論機關的意見還是比較多元我們要再跟機關再做充分的溝通以後我們會繼續來努力這個事情好時間暫停一下我再請我們的保訓會的主委我們再請那個保訓會的主委是\n\n06:45.489 --> 06:51.972\n好主委你剛才也講了一堆就是怎麼樣公務人員這個預算被刪被凍我剛剛就要講就是我跟秘書長說的你們最重要的事情趕快提出解凍與其在那邊一直在賣慘其實要解凍是比較重要的而且這個是符合以往的正常程序\n\n07:09.261 --> 07:24.942\n那另外一樣就是在去年大家討論那麼多的不管是霸凌也好性騷也好那麼事實上公務人員一直希望能夠爭取的就是能夠全面的去適用那個職安法\n\n07:25.723 --> 07:47.109\n那但這部分說實在也很奇怪因為勞動部他認為我今天照顧的是勞工那所以他並沒有很對這件事情至少到目前勞動部沒有正面積極的回應好那我想請問一下主委您同不同意公務人員應該全面的去適用職安法您同意嗎跟委員報告\n\n07:49.910 --> 08:10.761\n目前呢因為大院對我們的一個期待就是我們儘速的來完備公務人員保障法跟這個公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法就像剛剛黃國昌委員說對我們的提醒所以目前呢我們最主要的議題就是怎麼樣讓我們現有的保障法跟安慰辦法能夠全面的更完備\n\n08:11.943 --> 08:26.153\n目前在整個修法的過程裡面在徵詢各方的意見裡面呢對於是不是要適用責任法各方是意見不同所以我們還只能我們就是盡我們的努力讓我們自己的法治可以更完備那目前呢跟委員報告有關於這個\n\n08:28.695 --> 08:45.247\n提升法的位階然後呢增加了這個行政法懲戒法然後呢這個行政的裁罰還有違反刑事的部分呢移送檢調單位另外呢我們在整個調查的部分內部跟外部的這個我都曉得過去講了很多\n\n08:47.548 --> 09:08.126\n現在我要講的就是因為事實上現在在公務人員內部也並不是完全都沒有任何人去適用職安法因為這個是由勞動部他可以去做這個指定的在公務機構公務人員的範疇裡面他也可以去指定哪一些的這個公務人員他是可以適用職安法\n\n09:08.726 --> 09:11.188\n那事實上我覺得職業安全的保障因為大家都公認現在我們就是適用於勞工的職安法事實上是優於我們現在公務人員的比如說我們現在一般像我們也會有一些陳情那麼他可以發動相關的勞檢\n\n09:30.660 --> 09:38.728\n那但是我們公務人員就沒有嘛所以我要講的就是說在我們職業安全的保障的時候不要變成一國兩制或者是在公務人員體系裡面也出現了一國兩制\n\n09:45.855 --> 09:49.898\n就是有一些部分適用部分其實絕大部分是不適用的所以我要請教的就是主委如果按照您剛才的說法你剛才講說就我們現在公務體系裡面的不管是安慰辦法或是公務人員保障法我們怎麼樣的去強化它\n\n10:06.451 --> 10:32.149\n但是現在公務人員普遍是希望能夠去適用職安法所以這一點你剛才的意思是是覺得不應該反正只要只在公務人員體系的你們相關辦法去把它強化就好了是嗎跟委員說明一下目前呢因為這個公務人員分布各種不同的世代那整個的這個全國各種場域也都不一樣所以呢\n\n10:33.564 --> 10:54.660\n基本上目前不同類別的公務人員的代表他們對這個議題還有這個各用人主管機關呢對於這個議題呢都還在多元的討論那各國的法制呢也有一元制也有二元制如果基層的公務人員基層的公務人員一定會就是他的保障越多會越好基層公務人員一定是保障越多越好\n\n10:55.300 --> 11:08.164\n所以因為剛才那個部長已經在跟你搖耳朵了你現在有什麼你們回答要修正嗎沒有我剛看秘書長跟部長搖耳朵沒有他只是說提醒我不要占用到委員的時間這樣\n\n11:11.445 --> 11:14.007\n謝謝秘書長基本上我會讓備宣官員但是你這樣漏漏藏的發言當然就是因為不要占用時間所以我重點是我再做最後的重點我認為應該還是去朝向公務人員要去適用職安法的這樣的規定\n\n11:31.323 --> 11:37.646\n因為事實上我們在之前修的《性平三法》因為當時也是覺得說這個《性平三法》除了要保障勞工之外在勞工的職場要保障之外也應該去保障公務人員的職場上他的一個基本的權益所以同樣的在這些不管我剛剛講不管霸凌不管是性騷這些種種的在職場上的權益我認為不要一國兩制\n\n12:00.919 --> 12:27.976\n所以公務人員應該去朝向怎麼樣可以去適用到職安法因為在職安法裡面它的法律本來就講是適用各行業適用各行業但是現在就排除了絕大部分的公務人員我認為這是不合理的好不好我還是希望我們的考試院尤其我們的這個保訓會能不能在這個部分呢能夠再去做多一些的去推動跟研究好不好謝謝委員好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.687,"end":17.9,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我先請我們的秘書長好 麻煩秘書長還有我們的學事部部長部長委員長"},{"start":22.529,"end":44.314,"text":"沒有長 剛才吳思堯委員問了一連串的有關預算的部分我們這次考試院有被凍結預算凍結預算影響很大請問一下考試院到現在有沒有來向立法院提出解凍案的申請目前還沒有會不會提出解凍案的申請"},{"start":51.735,"end":71.943,"text":"我想最後一定要一定要嘛那什麼時候要提出解凍案申請如果這麼慘沒有錢那當然要需要趕快解凍那其實總統府是在上個上上星期五就已經公告了那請問一下什麼時候會送進解凍案"},{"start":75.435,"end":79.801,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分我們內部的作業應該還在作業中如果一直遲遲不送進解凍案那麼只能說你們根本不在乎這些預算啊在這邊講的這個漫天這個寒窮"},{"start":91.558,"end":107.069,"text":"這個受影響 那個受影響 但是卻一直都沒有送解凍案就會讓人質疑 這樣的說法到底是真實還是造謠因為時間關係 我請秘書長可以先回我請問一下全市部部長部長 在去年"},{"start":113.185,"end":142.007,"text":"勞動部的勞法署 北分署爆發了這個嚴重的霸凌案所以呢其實受到社會大眾高度的重視那尤其在我們第一線的公務人員那麼其實他們面臨到的除了是這個法的不足之外另外就是很多的公務人員在原單位他如果受到霸凌或者他的身心事實上真的已經沒有辦法承受的時候"},{"start":142.788,"end":148.979,"text":"他想要調離原單位啊 難上加難難如登天 對不對"},{"start":150.488,"end":163.836,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說公務員要離開原機關他各式各樣的原因都有啦那他是不是現在先向原機關這個申請那原機關大部分原機關都是同意的啦只是時間可能會沒有但是我們依照我們的法令也就是公務人員如果他要申請調離原機關的話必須得到原機關的同意對不對沒有錯沒有錯現在的規定是這樣子"},{"start":176.283,"end":181.875,"text":"好那這個規定合不合理呢我跟委員報告其實他不能講說他不合理我必須這樣講因為"},{"start":183.84,"end":206.406,"text":"用人權是在機關 機關還是好像用人的需要當然我們要考慮當事人可能有一些需求他有一些可能說但是問題是我剛剛講我們現在面臨到這兩個要兼顧啦你比如說今天我就去問我時間可以我就要問文化部部長像央廣它在數年前爆發了一個重大的弊案吹哨者"},{"start":208.206,"end":228.345,"text":"等於像包含董事長還有各董事揭發這個弊案之後然後他的考機受影響然後他受到霸凌了像這樣子的個案事實上非常多好 那麼現在尤其在去年這個公務人員霸凌案發生之後那麼"},{"start":229.426,"end":247.121,"text":"想要調離原機關 但是原機關通常都是不准啦 十之八九是不准的啦不准的狀況之下 他只能在那邊繼續承受這樣子的一個不管是言語霸凌 或者是烤雞霸凌 等等的所以我想請問一下我們的部長"},{"start":250.663,"end":273.831,"text":"部長有沒有在公務人員任用法施行細則至於這個不需要通過立法院修法在施行細則的部分是不是可以修正他不需要一定要得到原機關的同意他才能夠去商調其他的單位我跟委員報告兩件事情第一件事情事實面法是先說我們每年大概有"},{"start":275.273,"end":293.929,"text":"調動的人數大概會有平均全國大概一萬人左右所以大部分機關是會同意的當然一定有委員剛剛提的這些也有很多我們自己就有很多的選民服務就是原機關不同意不動人啊我知道一定會有只是說TOTAL是大部分是同意啦我必須這樣講那第二件事情是部裡面確實在啟動這個討論的機制啊"},{"start":297.932,"end":320.498,"text":"我進來就開始先處理這個問題就是我已經啟動這個討論機制那我跟委員報這個機制除了公務人員本身的需求我們一定知道以外我們也要同時兼顧機關的那個需求所以看這兩個中間怎麼樣去取得一個調和平衡你們到底會不會修這個施行細則我們目前的方向是要討論這個機制如果可以的話我們會來處理這個問題"},{"start":322.199,"end":326.284,"text":"因為這個說實在啊剛才講說什麼公務人員像你剛才講什麼什麼公職人員的什麼獎通不能辦我都覺得很奇怪你趕快來解凍怎麼會不能辦呢對不對因為根本沒有人在這個傑出公務人員這個根本沒有"},{"start":338.999,"end":354.507,"text":"這個科目被刪除那你們只要去解凍就好你講半天而我們第一線的公務人員現在最痛苦的地方就是他想要就是離開原單位原單位呢其實是不放人不放人他就在這邊一直"},{"start":355.948,"end":371.778,"text":"就是身心都受到折磨所以我在這邊希望你們在公務人員任用施行細則的部分能夠加速來推動可不可以我跟委員報告就像我剛剛講其實部裡面早在上個月或者是好像是更早之前就已經邀請機關來討論這個問題所以我們對這個問題很早就已經開始在啟動大概還需要多少時間呢"},{"start":378.342,"end":396.361,"text":"但是第一次的討論機關的意見還是比較多元我們要再跟機關再做充分的溝通以後我們會繼續來努力這個事情好 時間暫停一下我再請我們的保訓會的主委我們再請那個保訓會的主委是"},{"start":405.489,"end":411.972,"text":"好 主委 你剛才也講了一堆 就是怎麼樣公務人員這個預算被刪 被凍我剛剛就要講 就是我跟秘書長說的你們最重要的事情 趕快提出解凍與其在那邊一直在賣慘 其實要解凍是比較重要的而且這個是符合以往的正常程序"},{"start":429.261,"end":444.942,"text":"那另外一樣 就是在去年大家討論那麼多的不管是霸凌也好 性騷也好那麼事實上公務人員一直希望能夠爭取的就是能夠全面的去適用那個職安法"},{"start":445.723,"end":467.109,"text":"那但這部分說實在也很奇怪因為勞動部他認為我今天照顧的是勞工那所以他並沒有很對這件事情至少到目前勞動部沒有正面積極的回應好那我想請問一下主委您同不同意公務人員應該全面的去適用職安法 您同意嗎跟委員報告"},{"start":469.91,"end":490.761,"text":"目前呢因為大院對我們的一個期待就是我們儘速的來完備公務人員保障法跟這個公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法就像剛剛黃國昌委員說對我們的提醒所以目前呢我們最主要的議題就是怎麼樣讓我們現有的保障法跟安慰辦法能夠全面的更完備"},{"start":491.943,"end":506.153,"text":"目前在整個修法的過程裡面在徵詢各方的意見裡面呢對於是不是要適用責任法各方是意見不同所以我們還只能我們就是盡我們的努力讓我們自己的法治可以更完備那目前呢跟委員報告有關於這個"},{"start":508.695,"end":525.247,"text":"提升法的位階然後呢增加了這個行政法懲戒法然後呢這個行政的裁罰還有違反刑事的部分呢移送檢調單位另外呢我們在整個調查的部分內部跟外部的這個我都曉得過去講了很多"},{"start":527.548,"end":548.126,"text":"現在我要講的就是因為事實上現在在公務人員內部也並不是完全都沒有任何人去適用職安法因為這個是由勞動部他可以去做這個指定的在公務機構公務人員的範疇裡面他也可以去指定哪一些的這個公務人員他是可以適用職安法"},{"start":548.726,"end":551.188,"text":"那事實上我覺得職業安全的保障因為大家都公認現在我們就是適用於勞工的職安法事實上是優於我們現在公務人員的比如說我們現在一般像我們也會有一些陳情那麼他可以發動相關的勞檢"},{"start":570.66,"end":578.728,"text":"那但是我們公務人員就沒有嘛所以我要講的就是說在我們職業安全的保障的時候不要變成一國兩制或者是在公務人員體系裡面也出現了一國兩制"},{"start":585.855,"end":589.898,"text":"就是有一些部分適用部分其實絕大部分是不適用的所以我要請教的就是 主委如果按照您剛才的說法你剛才講說就我們現在公務體系裡面的不管是安慰辦法或是公務人員保障法我們怎麼樣的去強化它"},{"start":606.451,"end":632.149,"text":"但是現在公務人員普遍是希望能夠去適用職安法所以這一點你剛才的意思是是覺得不應該反正只要只在公務人員體系的你們相關辦法去把它強化就好了是嗎跟委員說明一下目前呢因為這個公務人員分布各種不同的世代那整個的這個全國各種場域也都不一樣所以呢"},{"start":633.564,"end":654.66,"text":"基本上目前不同類別的公務人員的代表他們對這個議題還有這個各用人主管機關呢對於這個議題呢都還在多元的討論那各國的法制呢也有一元制也有二元制如果基層的公務人員基層的公務人員一定會就是他的保障越多會越好基層公務人員一定是保障越多越好"},{"start":655.3,"end":668.164,"text":"所以因為剛才那個部長已經在跟你搖耳朵了你現在有什麼你們回答要修正嗎沒有我剛看秘書長跟部長搖耳朵沒有他只是說提醒我不要占用到委員的時間這樣"},{"start":671.445,"end":674.007,"text":"謝謝秘書長 基本上我會讓備宣官員但是你這樣漏漏藏的發言當然就是因為不要占用時間所以我重點是 我再做最後的重點我認為應該還是去朝向公務人員要去適用職安法的這樣的規定"},{"start":691.323,"end":697.646,"text":"因為事實上我們在之前修的《性平三法》因為當時也是覺得說這個《性平三法》除了要保障勞工之外在勞工的職場要保障之外也應該去保障公務人員的職場上他的一個基本的權益所以同樣的在這些不管 我剛剛講不管霸凌 不管是性騷這些種種的在職場上的權益我認為不要一國兩制"},{"start":720.919,"end":747.976,"text":"所以公務人員應該去朝向怎麼樣可以去適用到職安法因為在職安法裡面它的法律本來就講是適用各行業適用各行業但是現在就排除了絕大部分的公務人員我認為這是不合理的好不好我還是希望我們的考試院尤其我們的這個保訓會能不能在這個部分呢能夠再去做多一些的去推動跟研究好不好謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":645,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（9時53分）謝謝主席，我先請秘書長。"],["主席：好，麻煩秘書長。"],["王委員鴻薇：還有銓敘部部長。"],["主席：部長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早安。"],["王委員鴻薇：秘書長，剛才吳思瑤委員問了一連串有關預算的部分，這一次考試院有被凍結預算，你說凍結預算影響很大，那請問一下，考試院到現在有沒有向立法院提出解凍案的申請？"],["劉秘書長建忻：目前還沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有。會不會提出解凍案的申請？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我想最後一定要。"],["王委員鴻薇：一定要嘛！那什麼時候要提出解凍案申請？如果這麼慘、沒有錢，那當然需要趕快解凍，其實總統府在上上星期五就已經公告了，請問一下什麼時候會送進解凍案？"],["劉秘書長建忻：跟委員報告，這個部分我們內部作業應該……"],["王委員鴻薇：還在作業中，如果一直遲遲不送進解凍案，那麼只能說你們根本不在乎這些預算，在這邊漫天喊窮，這個受影響、那個受影響，但是卻一直都沒有送解凍案，就會讓人質疑這樣的說法到底是真實還是造謠。","因為時間關係，請秘書長可以先回座，我請問一下銓敘部部長。部長，在去年勞動部勞發署北分署爆發了嚴重的霸凌案，受到社會大眾高度的重視，尤其在第一線的公務人員，其實他們除了面臨法的不足之外，另外就是很多的公務人員在原單位，他如果受到霸凌，或者他的身心真的已經沒有辦法承受的時候，他想要調離原單位難上加難，難如登天，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，公務人員要離開原機關有各式各樣的原因，他必須先向原機關申請，大部分原機關都是同意的，只是時間可能會稍微晚一點。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有，但是依照我們的法令，公務人員如果要申請調離原機關的話，必須得到原機關的同意，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：沒有錯，現在的規定是這樣子。"],["王委員鴻薇：那這種規定合不合理呢？"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，其實不能講說它不合理，我必須這樣講，因為用人權是在機關，機關還是有它用人的需要，當然我們要考慮當事人可能有些需求，他可能有一些……"],["王委員鴻薇：但是問題是我剛才講，我們現在面臨到……"],["施部長能傑：這兩個要兼顧啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：比如說今天如果我的時間可以，我就要去問文化部部長，像央廣在數年前爆發了一個重大的弊案，吹哨者向董事長、各董事揭發這個弊案之後，他的考績受影響，然後他受到霸凌了。像這樣子的個案事實上非常多，尤其在去年這個公務人員霸凌案發生之後，想要調離原機關，但是原機關通常都是不准，十之八、九是不准的，不准的狀況之下，他只能在那邊繼續承受這樣不管是言語霸凌或者考績霸凌等等。所以我想請問一下部長，公務人員任用法施行細則不需要透過立法院修法，在施行細則的部分是不是可以修正，他不需要一定要得到原機關的同意才能夠商調其他的單位？"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告兩件事情，第一件事情，我先說事實面，我們每年全國調動的人數平均大概會有1萬人左右，所以大部分機關是會同意的，當然一定有委員剛剛提的這些……"],["王委員鴻薇：我們自己就有很多的選民服務，就是原機關不同意、不放人啊！"],["施部長能傑：我知道一定會有，只是說大部分是同意啦！我必須這樣講。第二件事情，事實上部裡面確實在啟動討論的機制，我進來就開始先處理這個問題，就是我已經啟動這個討論機制，我跟委員報告，這個機制除了公務人員本身的需求我們一定知道以外，我們同時也要兼顧機關的需求，看這兩個中間怎麼樣去取得一個平衡。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你們到底會不會修這個施行細則？"],["施部長能傑：我們目前的方向是要討論這個機制，如果可以的話我們會來處理這個問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：說實在，像你剛剛講的公職人員的什麼、什麼獎通通不能辦，我都覺得很奇怪，你趕快來解凍，怎麼會不能辦呢？因為傑出公務人員這個科目根本沒有被刪除，你們只要去解凍就好，你講半天，而第一線的公務人員現在最痛苦的地方就是，他想要離開原單位，原單位遲遲不放人，不放人他就在那邊身心一直受到折磨，所以我在這邊希望你們在公務人員任用法施行細則的部分能夠加速來推動，可不可以？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，就像我剛剛講的，其實部裡面早在上個月，或者是好像在更早之前就已經邀請機關來討論這個問題，所以我們對這個問題很早就已經開始在啟動……"],["王委員鴻薇：大概還需要多少時間呢？"],["施部長能傑：第一次的討論機關的意見還是比較多元，我們要跟機關再做充分的溝通完以後，我們會繼續來努力這個事情。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，時間暫停一下，我再請保訓會主委。主委，你剛才也講了一堆有關於公務人員的預算被刪、被凍，我要講的就是我剛剛跟秘書長說的，你們最重要的事情就是趕快提出解凍，與其一直在那邊賣慘，其實要解凍是比較重要的，而且這符合以往的正常程序。","另外，去年大家討論那麼多不管是霸凌也好，性騷也好，事實上，公務人員一直希望能夠爭取的就是全面適用職安法，但這部分說實在也很奇怪，因為勞動部認為今天他們照顧的是勞工，所以對這件事情，至少到目前勞動部沒有正面積極的回應。我想請問一下主委，您同不同意公務人員應該全面適用職安法，您同意嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，目前因為大院期待我們儘速完備公務人員保障法跟公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法，就像剛剛黃國昌委員對我們的提醒，所以目前我們最主要的議題，就是怎麼樣讓我們現有的保障法跟安衛辦法能夠全面的更完備。目前在整個修法的過程中，在徵詢各方的意見裡面，對於是否適用職安法，各方意見不同，所以我們就是盡我們的努力，讓我們自己的法制可以更完備。跟委員報告，有關提升法的位階，增加了行政罰、懲戒罰、行政的裁罰，還有違反刑事的部分移送檢調單位。另外，我們在整個調查的部分，內部跟外部的程序也都有。"],["王委員鴻薇：這個我都曉得，過去講了很多，現在我要講的是，事實上，現在在公務人員內部也並不是完全都沒有任何人去適用職安法，因為這個是勞動部可以去指定的，在公務機構公務人員的範疇裡面，他也可以去指定哪一些公務人員可以適用職安法。我覺得關於職業安全的保障，因為大家都公認現在適用於勞工的職安法，事實上是優於公務人員的。比如說我們也會有一些陳情，他可以發動相關的勞檢，但是公務人員就沒有。我要講的就是說，在我們職業安全的保障上不要變成一國兩制，或者是在公務人員體系裡面也出現一國兩制，就是有一些部分適用，其實現在絕大部分是不適用的。我要請教主委，如果按照您剛才的說法，你當然講說就我們現在公務體系裡面的，不管是安衛辦法或是公務人員保障法，我們怎麼樣去強化它，但是現在公務人員普遍希望能夠適用職安法，對於這一點，你剛才的意思是覺得不應該，反正只要在公務人員體系的相關辦法加以強化就好了，是嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員說明一下，因為目前公務人員分布各種不同的世代，全國各種場域也都不一樣，所以基本上，目前不同類別公務人員的代表對這個議題，還有各用人主管機關對於這個議題，都還在多元的討論，各國的法制有一元制也有二元制。"],["王委員鴻薇：基層的公務人員一定是保障越多越好，剛才部長已經在跟你咬耳朵了，現在你的回答要修正嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：我剛剛看秘書長跟部長咬耳朵，部長……"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：沒有，他只是提醒我不要占用到委員的時間。"],["王委員鴻薇：謝謝秘書長。基本上，我會讓備詢官員講，但是你這樣「落落長」的發言，當然就是……因為不要占用時間。我再做最後的重點，我認為應該還是朝向公務人員要去適用職安法這樣的規定。事實上，我們在之前修的性平三法，當時也是覺得性平三法除了要保障勞工，在勞工的職場要保障之外，也應該去保障公務人員在職場上的基本權益。所以同樣的，在我剛剛講的這些不管是霸凌，不管是性騷，這些種種在職場上的權益，我認為不要一國兩制，所以公務人員應該朝向怎麼樣可以去適用到職安法，因為職安法本來就是適用各行業，但是現在卻排除了絕大部分的公務人員，我認為這是不合理的，好不好？我還是希望我們的考試院尤其是保訓會，能不能在這個部分再去做多一些推動跟研究，好不好？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：謝謝委員。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，下一位我們請林倩綺委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-5","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","林倩綺","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業\n務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00004"}}}